251: And Then You Eat the Ice Cream


00:00:00   [Intro]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade Episode 251. Today's show is brought to you by Astro Patch Studio,

00:00:15   ExpressVPN, ButcherBox and PDFPen11. From Smile, it is the Summer of Fun!

00:00:21   Summer of Fun! My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by my surfing partner in crime, Mr. Jason Snell. Hi Jason Snell.

00:00:28   Uh, hang loose, dude. It's the Summer of Fun. It most certainly is. The Summer of Fun still starts

00:00:34   the same way as every episode of Upgrade does with our hashtag SnellTalkQuestion. This one comes from

00:00:39   Shaker Ben who asks, "How many hours has Smart Speed saved you in Overcast? Ben is up to 289

00:00:47   hours, which is a lot of saved hours. So Jason, how many hours have you saved by listening to

00:00:52   podcasts in Overcast with the silence all being removed and sped up when needed?" Overcast tells

00:01:00   me that I've saved 121 hours, which is great. I will point out I don't have a commute so I

00:01:08   definitely don't have as much of a podcast load as a lot of people do. I'm skeptical that I didn't

00:01:13   lose numbers, lose hours along the way there somewhere, but 121. I'm up to 180, which is a lot

00:01:20   of hours. It's many hours saved. Yeah, well I mean the seven and a half days for you and five

00:01:26   days for me. So I guess thanks to Mark Armand for saving us many days out of our lives or really

00:01:30   just packing in more podcast episodes. That's pretty much how that works. Thank you so much to

00:01:35   Ben for that SnellTalkQuestion. You can submit a question for a future episode of the show. Just

00:01:39   send out a tweet with the hashtag SnellTalk and it may be picked for a episode in the future. Summer

00:01:46   related questions would be, I would appreciate those as we are in the summer of fun right now.

00:01:51   So anything summer related send it in and I'll be happy to see those. We have some follow up today

00:01:57   Jason. Mark wants us to share our current home screens, which I feel is only fair considering

00:02:04   the mess that we caused many upgradients over the last week. I'm sure you saw as I did many people

00:02:11   changed their home screen to the official upgrade home screen, which is kind of amazing and I

00:02:18   apologize to all of those people for having to have done that. I had to change my home screen

00:02:25   to take the screenshot in the show notes of our home screen that we picked and then I had to

00:02:31   change it back because I wasn't going to leave it there. That would be just a bad idea. I appreciated

00:02:36   you doing that for the show notes last week. It had to be done. We had to show people what it looked like.

00:02:43   Do you have an image of my home screen? I have an image of yours.

00:02:48   Yes. This is a quick thing. Do you have any comments?

00:02:51   I'm just looking at it now. I don't know if I do. I think I've managed to turn off all of my

00:03:03   little notification bubbles. Maybe not messages. You just took that with messages and I might have

00:03:09   a few. You have apps that I just don't use, which is amazing. So many. Time-ary, Discord,

00:03:16   Evernote, Airtable, PipeDrive, Narwhal. So Airtable and PipeDrive, they are like business tools,

00:03:24   right? They're like sales tools. Narwhal is my right app. You got to drive those pipes.

00:03:28   You got to drive the pipes. And then I use Discord for some stuff. Evernote for some stuff as well.

00:03:34   Time-aries, my time tracking. You use any list, which I know is like a grocery list thing, right?

00:03:40   That's my shared grocery list with my family, yeah.

00:03:43   Did I never use that? You use Apple Maps. TestFlight on the home screen is an interesting choice, I think.

00:03:48   You know, I was going to bring it up last week and I decided that, you know, most people are not like

00:03:54   me and have lots of betas. But I have lots of betas, so I keep TestFlight out there, yeah.

00:03:59   Yeah, I'm looking at this. Always updating the betas.

00:04:01   Yeah, you don't have a... There are... I have... All of the questions that I have for you

00:04:09   are not really about the home screen, but it's more just like, why do you use that app over

00:04:13   that app? And I just don't want to have that conversation today. Yeah, in California,

00:04:18   Apple Maps is very good. That's what they say. I've heard that before. That is what they say.

00:04:24   We mentioned... Actually, we want to give another gift to the Upgradients as we were in the summer,

00:04:30   and that is official Summer of Fun desktop and mobile wallpapers.

00:04:34   Yeah, this came up. I was taking that screenshot last time and I scaled up our Summer of Fun art,

00:04:39   but I thought that would be great to actually have Summer of Fun wallpaper.

00:04:44   So I have been using the desktop wallpaper on my iPad for the last few days, and it makes me very

00:04:50   happy because it feels very summery. So whenever I open my iPad, it's like this beautiful summer

00:04:56   backdrop for me. So you can get those in our show notes too. If you want to go get those,

00:05:02   it should be in your podcast app of choice or at relay.fm/upgrades/251 is this week's episode,

00:05:10   and you can get the wonderful Summer of Fun wallpapers for free just for being a wonderful

00:05:15   Upgradient. We will offer those to you because we're nice like that, aren't we, Jason?

00:05:19   Yeah, exactly.

00:05:20   I wanted to give a quick reminder for something. We are doing a big fifth anniversary relay.fm live

00:05:28   show in August. It's on August 22nd in San Francisco. Our company turns five years old

00:05:35   a couple of days beforehand, and we're going to be doing a big live show with a bunch of relay.fm

00:05:40   hosts that are going to be coming in and we're going to be doing a big variety show. Jason Snell

00:05:43   will be there, won't you, Jason Snell? I will.

00:05:46   Along with many other... I live here.

00:05:47   Exactly. It's easy for me.

00:05:48   It's pretty easy for me.

00:05:49   Along with many other wonderful relay.fm hosts. Tickets are still available for that.

00:05:54   It's on August 22nd, and I will put a link in the show notes so you can buy a ticket and come out.

00:05:59   We are working to try and make this the best possible show it can be, and I'm very excited

00:06:03   about it. I think that you will really like it if you can make it out. We're going to be doing

00:06:08   big, wonderful live show with lots of surprises, wonderful fun things. You can get tickets for

00:06:14   that right now. Again, that will be in the show notes as well for you if you want to

00:06:18   grab a link to that. Jason, I think it's time for the triumphant return of Upstream,

00:06:24   which has been taking a many, many week break over the WWDC period, but I have a couple of things

00:06:30   that I want to talk to you about today. One of them is JJ Abrams. JJ Abrams is apparently nearing

00:06:36   a deal with WarnerMedia for $500 million. Apparently JJ was in talks with everyone you

00:06:44   would assume, Apple and NBC Universal as well, about securing a multi-year partnership, which

00:06:50   will be a first look at any project that Bad Robot, his production company, works on. A first

00:06:55   look is basically like a first right of refusal, right? If you're working on something, we want

00:07:00   to be able to take it first. I'm not sure, and you might know, this half a million dollars must

00:07:06   have at least a minimum amount of content attached to it though, right? Yeah, I'm sure. Well, so it's

00:07:14   producing, right? And I'm sure they will get, well, I mean, the idea is that they get a first

00:07:20   look. So I'm not sure whether there's a minimum or not. Maybe there's a minimum and then there's

00:07:25   an opt-out or something like that. It's contract details. But the way it works is basically they

00:07:30   are given, you know, any show that they are developing and producing, they're offering to,

00:07:35   in this case, WarnerMedia and saying, "You get right of first refusal for this movie,

00:07:39   for this TV show, we're developing all of that." And what that means is that if JJ Abrams wants

00:07:46   to develop something for, and they think it's really good and WarnerMedia is not interested

00:07:52   in it, it doesn't die. They get to shop it somewhere else and do it. But yeah, you'd think

00:07:56   that if you're WarnerMedia, you'd want to protect yourself against JJ Abrams deciding, "Well, thanks

00:08:01   for the half a billion dollars. Now I'm going to make a bunch of things you don't want to buy."

00:08:05   If the next six years of stuff from Bad Robot is all crap, then like... Because he had this deal

00:08:13   with Paramount. So he was in a deal with Paramount. In 2006, he made this deal with them, which is,

00:08:20   again, a multi-year deal for $55 million. It's very different. It's a hugely different amount

00:08:25   of money. And there was some stuff that was interesting. So the Cloverfield Paradox,

00:08:31   which was one of the movies in the Cloverfield thing, Paramount just said, "We don't want that."

00:08:36   And that's why it ended up on Netflix. So there's stuff like that.

00:08:39   - Yeah. Also, the producing versus directing, but also Paramount made that deal with JJ Abrams.

00:08:46   And he did... Because he did a couple of Star Trek movies and he has been producing the Mission

00:08:51   Impossible franchise. But at the same time, as a director, he went off and made... Now it's going

00:08:56   to be two Star Wars movies for Disney. So I think that that's a challenge in this. It's like,

00:09:02   presumably in the negotiations there, in addition to the big pile of money, is some structure here

00:09:12   in terms of... Obviously, they're going into it thinking that his company is going to primarily

00:09:17   supply WarnerMedia with content and that that's the idea here. But there have to be... In any

00:09:23   creative business, there have to be places where if you create a show... This happens on TV now,

00:09:29   where somebody creates a show for that company's network and they pass on it and it goes to a

00:09:36   competitor's network. And that's weird, but you went through all the trouble to develop the show,

00:09:41   you want to sell the show. And if the home team isn't buying, you go to the other team.

00:09:47   - It is unclear as to whether this deal will allow him to continue making his own... Directing

00:09:54   feature films for other companies, right? So if Disney come knocking again, I would expect for

00:09:58   this amount of money, it will probably lock him in. - What's unclear to me is, based on the coverage,

00:10:06   is whether this locks him in as a director or just as a producer. Because he is a prolific producer

00:10:10   of film and TV. Bad Robot has produced a surprising amount of stuff, stuff that you

00:10:15   wouldn't even think of, that JJ Abrams' name is never really connected with. Like Westworld is a

00:10:19   good example of that. That series is a... JJ Abrams' name is on it as an executive producer. He didn't

00:10:25   make Westworld and yet it is part of that kind of machine. And there are lots of shows that come out

00:10:32   of Bad Robot. So I think that's the question is, how much is this about getting JJ Abrams as a

00:10:39   writer and a producer and then as a director? And it's not impossible that his role as a director

00:10:47   is more... Is separate from it. Like that he might get brought in... Like Star Wars is a good example

00:10:54   where it's like, "We need you to direct this. Can you do that?" And he's like, "All right."

00:10:58   But yeah, if I were WarnerMedia, I would look at what happened with his Paramount deal and say,

00:11:03   "We gotta do something." And again, it's probably structured that we have to provide you with

00:11:09   a certain amount of work. We have to say yes to a certain number of projects guaranteed

00:11:13   because otherwise you could get in a situation if you're JJ Abrams where you can't do anything

00:11:19   you wanna do because they won't make any of the movies you wanna make. And that's not good either.

00:11:26   So that's part of that. It's fascinating. I don't think I would wanna be an entertainment

00:11:30   industry lawyer, but it is fascinating to see how you negotiate the structure of what ends up being

00:11:36   at the bottom a creative process because those two things don't really fit together, in my mind

00:11:41   anyway. Like you're trying to build a contract that says you will write a good movie. And it's

00:11:45   like, that's not how that works. - But you would expect though that this time around,

00:11:49   and maybe one of the reasons that the money is so different from... I mean, 2006 to now,

00:11:54   right? It's like nearly 10 years, but $55 million to $500 million. That's not like...

00:11:59   - Well, it is a multimedia deal, whereas the Paramount deal was film only.

00:12:02   - Okay. - So that's part of it. But yeah,

00:12:05   it's also the fact that there are all these different suitors because we're in a different

00:12:09   market now. - That also ties into what I was gonna say, which is that you would expect that

00:12:13   WarnerMedia actually need more content than Paramount did because they have a streaming

00:12:19   service to fill and putting JJ's name on a bunch of stuff will probably do well for them like it

00:12:24   did for Apple. - And he has a good track record of making stuff. I mean, again, you focus on

00:12:28   JJ Abrams and not Bad Robot and you miss... Bad Robot has been producing so many TV shows

00:12:34   and having Bad Robot drive that stuff into WarnerMedia's various cable channels and their

00:12:40   streaming service is... It's an engine that is generating lots of content and they want...

00:12:45   They need engines generating content like that for their stuff to work. And likewise, so does

00:12:52   Apple, so does Disney, so does Universal, like everybody. And that's why there were multiple

00:12:57   suitors for JJ Abrams and Bad Robot. So yeah, it's a combination, but it is kind of breathtaking to

00:13:03   think about getting paid a half a billion dollars to make movies and TV shows for one company

00:13:09   just as an exclusive deal. That's pretty spectacular. - David in the chat mentions a good

00:13:15   point that is worth clarifying that half a billion would be consumed quickly as a budget. This is not

00:13:22   a budget. This is not like when Apple put a billion dollars aside to make stuff. This is like, here's

00:13:28   a bag of money so we can give you more money to make things, right? Like this is not a half a

00:13:34   billion dollars that they're putting aside for JJ Abrams to make TV shows. - This is a signing bonus.

00:13:39   I mean, maybe not entirely that. There may be like rates about like we get a certain number

00:13:44   or that, but it's basically we're giving you half a billion dollars to have the exclusive right

00:13:51   to your stuff for the next however many years. - Which is crazy. It's crazy. And one of the

00:13:59   reasons I wanted to talk about this today is this is another type of thing that we're now going to

00:14:05   start seeing more of, I think. These big names being tied up with companies. - Yeah. Greg Berlanti,

00:14:12   who did Riverdale, did all the superhero shows on the CW. He has a deal with Warner Media. I mean,

00:14:19   that stuff was all with Warner Media already, but now it's like $300 million to him to produce more

00:14:23   content. Netflix has their deal with Ryan Murphy and their deal with Shonda Rhimes, right? Like

00:14:29   these are the big producers that you want to just give them money and say, just make all your stuff

00:14:36   for us. - This is like what Apple and Oprah have. - Yeah, it's true. I mean, what we haven't seen

00:14:41   Apple do is sign somebody like JJ Abrams who has a production company and has made a lot of

00:14:49   fiction content. That hasn't happened yet. It may at some point. I think Apple needs to,

00:14:54   Apple's working at a disadvantage now because they don't have a track record, because they don't even

00:14:57   have a service yet. And so if you're JJ Abrams, even if Apple offered the same money, you're sort

00:15:03   of like, well, you know, what's it going to be? Are they going to back out? Are they going to

00:15:09   change their mind at some point? - I don't want to be tied into a service that has a thousand

00:15:13   subscribers. - Yeah, exactly right. Even if you're paying me half a billion dollars to do it,

00:15:18   what does that mean? So yeah, it's a fascinating kind of decision-making process for the companies

00:15:27   and for these creators. But the key thing is, again, it's not a guy who writes a TV show,

00:15:32   who's getting this money. It's a guy who has a company full of producers who have been generating

00:15:40   TV material, not only working with writers, but also then putting the shows together and movies

00:15:47   too. And if you look at "Bad Robot," it's more than just sort of like from the mind of JJ Abrams.

00:15:52   It's a whole lot of stuff. And the people inside "Bad Robot" other than JJ Abrams kind of come and

00:15:57   go, but they're also very talented people there who come there and produce a show. And that's

00:16:03   what the money is doing. "Mission Impossible" is a good example where JJ Abrams directed a "Mission

00:16:08   Impossible," but my understanding is that JJ Abrams continues to get a producer credit. And "Bad

00:16:14   Robot" produces the "Mission Impossible" movies with Tom Cruise. And it's like they are part of

00:16:18   that process. And that's, again, that's not as we focus on the people, and it's a little more than

00:16:25   that. It's a production deal, so it's about all of "Bad Robot." But it does mean that, you know,

00:16:29   JJ has an idea and JJ's writers that JJ likes, who he brings in to work on projects, like it's

00:16:35   all kind of coming from that. JJ Abrams, by the way, an enormous Apple nerd, Big Mac fan, just

00:16:42   he's one of us. I will point that out. Whether you like or dislike his work, I will say he's one of

00:16:48   us. He really is. He sent me an email at one point back in the day from his AOL account. That's how

00:16:53   long ago it was. He is definitely an Apple guy. Hi, JJ, if you're listening. That's right. Hi to

00:16:59   JJ. Myke, realistically, it's going to be like, "Hi to JJ's dad," right? Something like that.

00:17:05   JJ's cousin. Something like that. That's fine. It all works for me. Okay. Adam Sandler and Jennifer

00:17:11   Aniston's new movie on Netflix, "Murder Mystery," broke Netflix viewing records. 30.9 million

00:17:16   households saw the movie in the first three days. Netflix only counts a view if 70% of the movie has

00:17:22   been seen. So this isn't even people that started the movie and bailed on it. I remember, I don't

00:17:30   know if we spoke about this, but we may have, Adam Sandler's deal with Netflix was kind of laughed at

00:17:36   because it's like, "Why? This is why!" Because a lot of people have watched it. This is a movie

00:17:43   that probably would not have garnered this kind of audience in theaters. And I think this, the reason

00:17:49   I brought this to discuss a little bit today is because I think this is one of the things that

00:17:52   makes streaming different. I think people are more willing to try something out than they are if they

00:17:57   had to go and pay for a movie ticket. Oh, for sure. For sure. This is, in fact, there's an

00:18:03   argument to be made that movies that are, it used to be movies went in theaters and you went to see

00:18:09   movies and you just needed to be kind of interested. But in today's world, you really need the movie

00:18:16   to be an event, to go see a movie in the theater for a lot of people. And there's a whole class of

00:18:21   movies that are good movies. I'm not saying this movie is good or bad. It's apparently, you know,

00:18:26   it didn't get great reviews, but Adam Sandler movies don't. But you can have a good movie

00:18:31   that, but you're like, oh, it's a little romantic comedy or something like that. Like, I watched

00:18:36   a Netflix movie. I watched Always Be My Maybe, which is a romantic comedy on Netflix. We watched

00:18:43   that last weekend and, you know, it was fine. But it's one of those things that I could,

00:18:47   I cannot imagine going out to the movie theater to see a small budget to mid-budget romantic comedy.

00:18:54   I just, I can't see it. These are the movies that would go into Blockbuster

00:18:58   and you would pick them out, right? Except the truth is these are the movies that you might have

00:19:03   seen 20 years ago in the movie theater, but we have so much entertainment at home now that you

00:19:08   need to have. One of the reasons why Marvel has been so successful is because spectacle and events

00:19:14   sell at the box office. It's not just that Marvel movies have driven, you know, small movies out of

00:19:20   the movie theaters. In part, it's that the movies that work today in movie theaters, they get lots

00:19:27   of people out of their houses where they've got a nice TV and an infinite selection of content on

00:19:33   Netflix. The way you get those people out is by having this like big thing that you want to see

00:19:38   on a big screen and everybody's talking about it. And if you don't go see it, you're going to be

00:19:42   behind. And I feel like that's where we are. So we look at something like Adam Sandler and Jennifer

00:19:46   Aniston doing a kind of wacky European murder mystery. Like, are people going to go to the movie

00:19:52   theater and see that? Maybe not, but if it pops on Netflix, and this is literally a movie I didn't

00:19:56   know existed until I saw it on, I turned on Netflix last weekend when we watched that,

00:20:03   that other movie. And I was like, huh, murder mist. Is that, is that Jennifer Aniston with

00:20:08   Adam Sandler? And it was, and I was like, okay, I'm not, I'm totally not going to watch that movie,

00:20:13   but I saw it there. And the fact that Netflix with just the algorithm, just their interface

00:20:20   was able to drive worldwide mind you, but drive 31 million viewings of that movie is,

00:20:27   that's the power of Netflix. In three days, right? Yeah. Three days. Nobody heard about it,

00:20:34   but it showed up on your Netflix and you're like, oh, Adam Sandler and Jennifer Aniston,

00:20:39   click, watch a movie. That's the power of Netflix. And then those, again, it's like, those were the

00:20:45   31 million people who watched basically the entire movie. I'm sure that there are many more millions

00:20:50   of people that were like, I don't like this after 20 minutes. I just turned it off. Sure. And it's

00:20:56   kind of, it's absolutely wild. It's a, this is, this is one of those things where it's like,

00:21:01   this is very different this time. Like we've moved into a very different time again. And

00:21:05   as you say, right, this is not a marketing budget that drove this. This was Netflix's algorithm.

00:21:09   And that is kind of incredible that they are able to push those kinds of numbers just based on their

00:21:16   own internal marketing at this point. It's, it's really wild. Yeah. And it shows that, I mean,

00:21:20   Netflix did, did the deal with Adam Sandler and everybody laughed at it, but obviously worked for

00:21:25   Netflix because they made another deal with Adam Sandler. And I think, you know, I don't want to

00:21:30   call Adam Sandler a business genius or something, but maybe he has an awareness of his appeal and

00:21:38   the kind of stuff he wants to make. Talk about somebody very different from JJ Abrams in a lot

00:21:42   of ways, but still having to make some creative decisions about yourself in this landscape.

00:21:47   And maybe Adam Sandler looked at it and said, you know, the kind of stuff I want to make,

00:21:50   I am not allowed to make because it won't work in the movie theater. And if I do get something

00:21:55   to the movie theater, it's a real crap shoot about whether it'll even work. And Netflix is coming to

00:22:00   me and saying, we will bankroll your next four movies and just put them on Netflix. And when

00:22:05   he does that, he finds that there's an audience for that. And he realizes, okay, why would I not

00:22:11   keep doing this? This is where my right. And that's interesting because there's an ego thing there

00:22:16   where it's like, am I just a guy who makes made for TV movies now you could view it that way if

00:22:19   you wanted to, but you could also view it that the kind of movie you want to make is not any longer

00:22:26   something that could possibly survive in a movie theater, but Netflix audiences kill it. Like sure.

00:22:33   Adam Sandler had his time where he can make anything, right? And people will go to the

00:22:38   theaters to see it. And he did. And he did. And that's maybe part of the problem. Oh God, Click

00:22:45   is one of the worst movies I've ever seen in my entire life. I hate that movie, but I love some

00:22:49   of his, you know, like his earlier stuff or at least did at the time. You're happy as Gilmore.

00:22:53   You're, uh, yeah, you're, I don't even remember what all those movies are. Anyway, it's, it's,

00:22:57   uh, I think it's interesting. Uh, I would love, I should probably look at, there's probably an

00:23:03   article about it, but like the thought process that goes into saying, you know what, I know it

00:23:06   doesn't seem glamorous to be in a movie deal with Netflix, but it's the right thing to do. And the

00:23:13   truth is a lot of these smaller movies, um, are not going to be seen by anybody in a movie theater.

00:23:20   They might be, they might get an art house release or something like that. But for, for a lot of

00:23:24   movies at the, at these that aren't these giant blockbusters streaming services may be their best

00:23:30   place to be, to be seen, which is important for, uh, Netflix because they want to, you know,

00:23:36   provide content to their subscribers. And it's important for the creators who want their movies

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00:25:12   So Jason Snell, let's talk about macOS Catalina. The public beta is available now,

00:25:19   which is an interesting decision. We'll dig into that a little bit, but I want to talk about

00:25:24   your impressions with Catalina in general and digging into some specific parts of it,

00:25:30   because we've actually not really spent a ton of time talking about this version of macOS.

00:25:35   Because it's been, I know you've had to spend some time with it, right? And kind of really

00:25:40   kind of dig in and there's a lot of things that we can't really know yet and we'll get into that.

00:25:44   But off the bat, I wanted to kind of get a feeling from you if you're surprised by anything. Are

00:25:50   there any features in Catalina that you're enjoying that maybe you hadn't spent a bunch

00:25:55   of time thinking about until you started using them? I don't know. I mean, you're right. It's

00:26:00   only been a few weeks since we did the initial thing. So I have been thinking about all of those

00:26:08   things. But yeah, I'd say having screen time available. I'm not surprised by much of anything,

00:26:16   but seeing this stuff on the Mac and being like, "Oh, this is a thing that I couldn't do on the

00:26:21   Mac up until now." You can probably answer this question for me then. Does screen time on the Mac

00:26:26   count information from non-App Store apps? I don't know. Okay. Because screen time was basically

00:26:36   useless when I only have a device on a beta. Right. Okay. Yeah, I understand that. That makes

00:26:41   sense. I hope that it does. Remember last summer, screen time really didn't work until basically the

00:26:45   end of the summer when we got everything on. Are you using the App Store version of BB Edit or not?

00:26:50   I'm not. Right. Well, then it's in your screenshot, so it is counting that. That's good.

00:26:54   There you go. BB Edit was the question because when I saw it in your screenshot in your article

00:26:58   on six colors, I was like, "Ooh." Because I expected you were probably not using the App

00:27:03   Store version because that's what I really wanted. Because for me, if screen time is only picking up

00:27:09   App Store apps, it's kind of pointless. Yeah, but why would it do that? Plus,

00:27:12   you need parental controls over all apps on the system, not just App Store apps.

00:27:16   I agree with you. It would have been silly, but I didn't want to think one way or the other until

00:27:21   I knew. And I guess there's like, what are some of the things that you do like the most? So not

00:27:27   necessarily what surprised you, but like it's basically worked out being what you wanted. Like,

00:27:31   I know you're excited about Find My and photo stuff.

00:27:34   Well, you know, Find My works and I used Find My friends on my Mac.

00:27:39   Don't like the name. I've tried to accept it. I can't stand it.

00:27:41   Yeah, it is much better than having it in the sidebar. That's a catalyst app that actually

00:27:50   is fine. It does what I need it to do, and that's very clever. The biggest feature of it is going to

00:27:57   be that finding a device that's not on a network by spotting it through other Apple devices,

00:28:04   which is this very weird feature that requires a lot of security stuff so that it's not an invasion

00:28:09   of privacy that Apple has built. This is going to be one of those features that nobody thinks

00:28:13   about until they need it. And then they will tell all of their friends about how happy they were,

00:28:17   that they got their iPhone from the back of that taxi, right? Like this is going to be one of those

00:28:22   things that we don't necessarily feel the effects of for a while. And then there'll be all these

00:28:26   stories, right? Or like you'll hear from a friend of yours or like someone will say, "Oh, I lost my

00:28:30   laptop." Like, you'll be like, "Oh, well, I can tell you how you can find it." Right? Like, I think

00:28:34   it's going to be one of those real feel-good things, but it will take a while for people to

00:28:38   feel the effects of it. So the iPhone in the taxi is not a great example because it's on a network

00:28:46   and, you know, right? It's on a network and it's, uh, and it knows where it is. Although,

00:28:54   uh, I will say that if you get the, uh, you know, it's, it's a device that's not on a network is the

00:28:59   problem and doesn't know where it is. Um, and those devices will now be able to send out their

00:29:03   little Bluetooth beacon and, um, other devices just need to be nearby. And those devices are

00:29:09   on the network and know where they are and they see it. And then therefore, you know where your

00:29:13   device is. And so it's going to be lost laptops and iPads. I think more than anything else. Yeah.

00:29:20   Um, but what about as the photos guy? I'm sure you have you actually spent time with your real

00:29:25   photos in the new photos app? Oh yeah, I have. I have. Um, it's, uh, again, it's a lot of the

00:29:32   details that I have to dive into. And I spent this time, I had to look at everything in Catalina. So

00:29:38   I'm impressed with Apple's continued efforts to use machine learning technology to unearth photos

00:29:44   in giant photo libraries because they've clearly decided, and I think they're right and Google has

00:29:49   done the same thing that everybody's photo libraries are huge and they're disorganized,

00:29:54   not organized. And that's the thing that machine learning is. It should be really good at is

00:29:58   recognizing events, recognizing people, recognizing content, and then floating things up to the top.

00:30:03   So it's a much more attractive interface. I would say, uh, these big, you know, big pictures,

00:30:09   it's dropping duplicates. It's trying to drop stuff that it doesn't think is relevant. You can

00:30:13   show them if you want, but they're dropped by default and the default views. If you look at a

00:30:17   year, it's going to show you stuff that happened around this time in every year. So it's sort of

00:30:21   anniversaries of things. Um, it will float and autoplay, uh, without sound, I believe video and,

00:30:29   uh, that you take as well. So that some of them are, it's kind of delightful. And I've got a

00:30:33   screenshot in my review about it. Uh, you know, kind of delightful. These, uh, little, little, uh,

00:30:39   you know, there's like a dance thing that my daughter did and you can see her, you know,

00:30:43   dancing in this little square and they use machine learning to do things like find the faces and the

00:30:48   prominent objects in photos and crop appropriately so that it actually like looks good. This preview

00:30:55   looks good and it's not just sort of like the weird middle of a photo. So, um, I'm encouraged

00:31:01   by it, but you know, again, I need to spend a lot more time with it and see what the downsides of

00:31:06   this are. Uh, it is a totally new yet again, a new photos interface. It's really sort of like the

00:31:11   second makeover they've given it in the last few years. Is there anything else that feature wise

00:31:16   that you're, that you're excited about before we talk about catalyst? So security is something that

00:31:22   I'm actually excited about that Apple keeps, Apple is trying to find a way and we've talked about

00:31:26   this before. Apple is trying to find a way to let the Mac be open while also being secure. And so

00:31:33   what it's doing is it's a few things. It's doing a bunch of sort of like app checking changes that

00:31:39   by default are going on, like the gatekeeper that used to check when you launched an app for the

00:31:46   first time. Uh, it now checks periodically, not just the first time. Um, it is looking for a thing

00:31:54   called a notarized app. Oh, I remember this. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's gonna, you basically,

00:32:01   you're supposed to sign your app with Apple. Um, and Apple doesn't have a approval there,

00:32:06   but you sign it and what it, Apple does a basic scan of it. Basically the cryptographic signature

00:32:11   means if that app gets tampered with, you remember when like, um, transmission, the BitTorrent client

00:32:17   got, uh, altered so that there was spyware inside it on the download. That would be something that

00:32:23   would fail if it was signed because the signature check would fail. Right. It has been modified

00:32:31   after that. Okay. Is this something that allows Apple to, can they turn off an app from their

00:32:36   side? Yes. It means they can turn off an app and not just a developer, which is currently what they

00:32:40   do. So they could, if there was an app that got out, that was bad, the developer could alert Apple

00:32:45   or Apple could, could notice it and, and kill that app. And it would just, it would just die and it

00:32:50   wouldn't run anymore. So they're doing a bunch of stuff like that. And again, it's stuff that's

00:32:54   happening with the default and you can turn it off. And Apple has said, um, in a few places,

00:33:00   you know, their intention is not for you to not be able to run a piece of software you want to run,

00:33:05   but you may need to turn off security features to do it in the end, which I'm okay with that,

00:33:09   that, uh, that handoff. Um, so there, there are those security features. They separated the system

00:33:14   volume into this read only partition that mounts not on your desktop, um, but in the system folder,

00:33:23   uh, system slash system slash volumes. And then there's a hard drive in there. It's weird. Uh,

00:33:28   and it's read only. And the idea there again is that weird files don't get inserted into the

00:33:34   system stuff because that is a security problem. So there's a bunch of stuff like that. Um,

00:33:40   and then another thing that I think is interesting is that some from like a user stability standpoint,

00:33:47   there's this snapshot feature now where once you're on Catalina, let's say that they roll out

00:33:53   10 15 one and it breaks something in your system. The way that Apple has got it set up. Now you can

00:33:59   boot into recovery and you can go back to your snapshot that it took before you ran the update.

00:34:05   It's very windowsy. It's a great feature, but it reminds me of like, cause Myke, like windows has

00:34:10   had this feature for a long time, right? That like you do something and just bone your system

00:34:15   and then you can go back and fix it again. The reason I love though is because it's funny for

00:34:21   me to think cause Apple's had this problem, right? Where like they put out a software update,

00:34:26   things go wrong. This now allows users to fix those problems on their own side, right? Where

00:34:33   you can be like, take me back to before that time, which I think that's good. I think it's a good

00:34:38   thing to have. Yeah, I think so. Uh, it is, I, what I find most interesting about is that it

00:34:47   suggests that Apple is planning perhaps to use this technology for something more like a time machine

00:34:54   thing, but this is a, you know, a full on snapshot that's happening and APFS has that feature. So,

00:35:00   you know, it is, it is good to have it, but it's a very specific instance where you have a regret.

00:35:06   I think it would be interesting if you could do this as a, certainly as a local snapshot feature

00:35:11   to have the ability, if something bad happened on your system to roll it back to an arbitrary time,

00:35:16   like think of a time machine for local content only, uh, separate from the time machine that

00:35:23   you're doing to an external drive. I think where time machine goes from here is a broader discussion

00:35:27   because they haven't updated in a while, even though they put these features in and, you know,

00:35:31   you could assume that a better time machine is coming. But I also wonder sometimes about

00:35:35   if Apple is thinking about cloud backup on the Mac, which is a huge amount of data,

00:35:41   but at the same time they do it for iOS. I don't know. Um, I want to ask you actually about,

00:35:49   just so you tweet about this, your beta equipment. It was very funny to me. Uh, you,

00:35:56   like what did you duct tape, uh, SSD to the back of a laptop? Uh, yeah. How did that go for you?

00:36:04   I, I mean, I tweeted about it cause it was silly. Basically I was working at my desk,

00:36:09   booting off of the SD onto my iMac pro and it was a warm day and I wanted to go outside.

00:36:14   And so I took my wife's Mac book air and shut it down and booted from the external. And after a

00:36:22   software update and turning off security feature, not allowing external boot drives, I had to do a

00:36:29   bunch of that stuff. I got it to boot and then I was like, uh, going to carry it around. And I

00:36:33   thought, I'm not carrying this around. It's got the system folder on it. I'm just gonna,

00:36:37   I'm going to pop it right out and it's gonna, it's gonna crash and it's gonna be bad. And

00:36:41   they're going to be bitter tears and recriminations. And so I thought I got to

00:36:44   tape it on and I couldn't find any painters tape, couldn't find any masking tape, couldn't find any

00:36:48   gaffers tape. Uh, but I had, uh, some, some duct tape and I thought, well, at least this will be

00:36:53   funny. And it was so sorry. It was just for during the day. And by the time Lauren got back from work,

00:37:00   I had already untaped it and wiped off all of the sticky stuff. And it was as if it had never

00:37:06   happened. Um, before we talk about catalyst, I want to talk about the music app because I think

00:37:15   in contrary to a lot of the things that I have seen, you seem to be very unhappy with the music

00:37:21   app where most people that I've spoken to about it say that it is great. And I want to get into

00:37:28   that a little bit because there was always this question we asked, uh, Marco asked it on ATP as

00:37:34   well of like talking about the breakup of iTunes. Could it be one of those situations where you

00:37:39   don't know what you got till it's gone and you seem to be pretty upset with the music app, right?

00:37:43   Well, so the music app is iTunes, but they have definitely redesigned the music and the Apple TV

00:37:50   app to look like more like iOS apps. And, and I think, uh, so the podcast app is a catalyst app,

00:37:58   but what they've done is they've tried to unify the design and they have taken design hints from

00:38:02   iOS. So this is one of those cases where it's a, you know, so much fear was, uh, focused on the

00:38:11   fact that catalyst apps were going to come to the Mac and not be Mac like, and not enough fear was

00:38:17   maybe focused on what if Apple just decides that even apps that have been on the Mac for more than

00:38:24   a decade should look more like their iOS counterparts regardless of the origin of them.

00:38:29   And that's really what happened with, uh, with iTunes when they turned it into the music and

00:38:33   the TV app is that they ripped some features out that I use every day, which is a bummer.

00:38:38   And they make some made some interface decisions that I think make sense on iOS and don't make

00:38:43   sense on the Mac. So I'm not impressed with it. I mean, it's fine. It still plays my music library.

00:38:51   It still plays my Apple music stuff, which is not surprising. You know, it's, it still does most of

00:38:56   what it did before, but you know, I had a, I use column view, which used to be the default on

00:39:03   iTunes back in the day so that I could very quickly jump to an artist and then filter through their

00:39:08   albums and maybe pick a couple albums and shuffle through them. And that you just can't do that

00:39:13   without column view. Um, and, uh, the music app, like the music app on iOS doesn't have this

00:39:20   concept. So they, they, they made the column view disappear completely. It was already hidden by

00:39:25   default, but you could make it visible and now it's just gone. And that was a major way that I

00:39:29   listened to music from my library. You know, in terms of picking out an album or a couple albums

00:39:34   to listen to, they have an album view, although it's funny by default, you search the album view

00:39:39   by finding an artist, not an album. That's kind of silly, isn't it? And then you have to scroll

00:39:46   through all the albums to find the album you want. And then you can play an album. Oh boy, I remember

00:39:50   column view. I was like, I couldn't visualize it, but now I found it. It's the like genres, artists,

00:39:55   albums at the top of the window. And then you can click them to filter, which I admit is a kind of

00:40:01   an old view, but I used it all the time. I listened on my Mac to iTunes music every day. And I use the

00:40:07   column view all the time when I want to listen to exactly what I want to. And the problem is like,

00:40:13   you can kind of approximate this by going in the album view and going to an artist and then

00:40:17   picking the albums you want to listen to and then add them to UpNext. But UpNext has weird rules

00:40:21   where like a shuffle happens within the thing that you are playing now and you add things to it.

00:40:27   And depending on how you add things to it, they don't get shuffled. They just get pushed off to

00:40:31   later. So there's a lot of weird things where it takes more steps and it doesn't quite do what I

00:40:36   actually want it to do. So I don't know. It's just one of those things that I'm not surprised they

00:40:41   took it away, but it's a feature that I used and this makes this app less functional. They're

00:40:46   basically trying to make it more like the iOS app by removing features. The one that from a

00:40:52   kind of John Gruber-like, I'm watching the usability of my operating system standpoint

00:40:59   that I object to is where they put lyrics in UpNext, which is in this slide out thing,

00:41:05   just like it is on the iPad. You tap the lyrics button and the lyrics slide out into the window,

00:41:14   covering the content of the window, which is completely logical when you're using a single

00:41:19   window interface like an iPad. But on the Mac, it's sort of like, why did you do that? Why have

00:41:25   you covered up my content with your list? I have an enormous... Can you make the window larger?

00:41:30   Yes. And then it still slides in. Oh, that's... It doesn't slide out. It's like a drawer that only

00:41:36   slides in because on an iPad, where would it go if it slid out? It's like a question of like,

00:41:40   what's outside the universe? It's not possible. What happened before time? How much time was there?

00:41:46   There wasn't time, right? It's a big picture question. If you've got a full-screen iPad app

00:41:50   and then a drawer slides out, where does it go? It can't... There's nothing out there. But on the

00:41:56   Mac, it's a window. It's floating in space. You could just stick that content out there. Or what

00:42:01   they did in iTunes is they had a little popover and you could dismiss it and all that. It's not a

00:42:06   huge thing, but I looked at it and I was like, this is an iOS design decision that's being brought to

00:42:11   the Mac. And I'm not sure I like it just because the context of the Mac does not require that kind

00:42:17   of a compromise. But yeah, there it is. One of the things that I find interesting about

00:42:21   these decisions is this is a Mac app. That's what I find so interesting about it is like,

00:42:28   I get it if a catalyst app does this. There's a logic to it. They want them to be consistent.

00:42:34   It doesn't matter. And this is the truth is it doesn't matter how it's built. It doesn't matter

00:42:39   how it's built. It matters what they want it to look like and how they want it to behave. And

00:42:44   Apple is saying, we want... We were all like, oh, it turns out it is iTunes. We're saved.

00:42:50   They didn't bring over the music app from iOS. And the answer is no, no, no, no, no.

00:42:53   They remade iTunes to look like the music app from iOS. It may not be, but we're going to make

00:43:01   design decisions that are iOS design decisions on the Mac. And that's just how it's going to be.

00:43:06   And I do think that this is Apple saying, essentially, we think we're going to redefine

00:43:13   what a Mac app is like. And the answer is it's like an iPad app. I mean, like that was everybody's,

00:43:17   you know, not everybody, but that was a fear was that the Mac was going to inherit kind of like

00:43:22   design decisions that were made in a different context. And this is a good example of exactly

00:43:27   that happening, even though it's a quote unquote, you know, original Mac app.

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00:44:30   astropad.com right now. Go there right now and check it out. Our thanks to AstroPad Studio for

00:44:35   their support of Upgrade and all of Relay FM. So let's talk about Catalyst. So Catalyst,

00:44:44   previously Project Sneak Peek, previously Mazapan. This is the project in Catalina of allowing for

00:44:52   iPad apps or apps that were developed with the iPad in mind to run on the Mac. So there are some

00:45:00   examples from Apple. There are new ones and there are old ones. Has anything happened to the old

00:45:07   apps? So this was news, stocks, home and voice memos. Has anything happened? Well,

00:45:16   it doesn't look like it but my understanding is that behind the scenes Apple is trying to take

00:45:23   them and I'm unclear on whether this is in the current betas or if it's happening this summer.

00:45:29   But what happened with those apps last time is they're basically hand built for this thing that

00:45:35   didn't have a name and that this year they're supposed to be brought up on the general

00:45:40   Catalyst framework. So in theory this is all like these have now been built using the current tools

00:45:49   instead of the kind of hacks that they had to do last time. So they've been updated in the sense

00:45:56   that they apparently are using the modern Catalyst system to build them now instead of whatever they

00:46:01   had to do to get them to run last year. However, when you look at them they don't look any

00:46:05   different and in fact in some places they've regressed like there was an open Safari item.

00:46:10   I was, will be on the talk show with Jon Gruber. We recorded it late last week. It's not out yet as

00:46:17   we record this but probably soon so if you want to hear another two and a half hours of me talking

00:46:22   watch for that. But Jon pointed out that there's a file menu item called open in Safari that got

00:46:28   added to the news app and in Catalina beta it's gone. So it's like weird did they go back to an

00:46:34   older version of the code and then are they going to push it forward? It's kind of unclear. The one

00:46:38   I go to immediately is the automations tab in a home app to look and see if the date picker has

00:46:44   changed from the little spinny thing that is from iOS and at least as of this beta the answer is no.

00:46:51   Which I don't know. It's frustrating to me that Apple has apparently just slept on these apps and

00:47:00   that spinning wheel for date picker and time picker it's really bad. Like find, it was very

00:47:08   clear a year ago it was really bad. Find an alternative to make it a better Mac app and they

00:47:14   apparently at least as of now have not done that. So we'll see. You know again I can say just like

00:47:19   I did last year I hope they fix this by the end of the summer but we're here a year later and they

00:47:23   haven't done it. So it's unfortunate that there was a time when we expected that the Apple apps

00:47:29   on the platform would be the exemplars of the platform and I don't think they are. I, you know,

00:47:36   my gut feeling is that these old ones anyway are just kind of weird and not very good. The new ones

00:47:43   are better and show a lot of potential to be better but I'm disappointed that Apple hasn't

00:47:48   gone back and brushed up the old ones because like news for example and home and I'm sure all of them

00:47:55   could use a little bit of love to make them a little more Mac appropriate than they are.

00:48:00   Will Barron Before we move away completely from talking about the older apps, the sneak peek apps,

00:48:06   there was a CNET report claiming that Craig Federighi had told them that the older apps

00:48:11   would be improved and they used some quotes of things that I have heard Craig Federighi

00:48:16   mention in other places like in his interview of Federighi calling app stories and in the

00:48:22   episode of the talk show where they were kind of talking about, and I'll read this quote actually,

00:48:28   that we've looked at the design and features of some of those apps, the older apps and said

00:48:32   we can make this a bit more of a Mac experience through changes that are independent of the use

00:48:35   of catalyst but are just design team decisions and he kind of was saying that like oh you know

00:48:40   it wasn't the underlying frameworks of why they work that way or why they maybe seem weird but

00:48:44   they were design decisions but then the CNET article also has a quote saying well they said

00:48:49   have a quote saying wait for the public beta we're still tuning everything up that's where it gets

00:48:53   really good. Now from your perspective you've been using the public beta and you're still unhappy but

00:48:59   have seen changes. Well I'll be clear I'm using beta 2 but that's my understanding is that's the

00:49:04   public beta. Okay so that's what you've been told though right? Like yeah that's what I've been told

00:49:08   and I also can say my impression is that CNET maybe took these statements that were also largely

00:49:15   what Craig said on stage to John Gruber and interpreted them more than is there. Yep. It's

00:49:20   my understanding is that this is really this is really is it better is it worse it does feel a

00:49:25   little bit like Craig Federighi is kind of throwing the design team under the bus. I was a little

00:49:29   uncomfortable with the way that he was talking about that. Yeah he's kind of saying hey those

00:49:33   things because he's bragging on catalyst and on his engineers for catalyst and saying you know

00:49:38   those things that you point to in those apps and say they're not Mac like those aren't faults with

00:49:43   catalyst those are just terrible design decisions. Yeah it kind of felt a little bit like he was

00:49:48   bringing an internal debate out into public right which was super weird because like all right let's

00:49:53   just imagine that it is nothing to do with the underlying framework but was just design decisions

00:49:59   all right but like find a different way to say that to everybody else like it was very strange

00:50:05   it was very very strange to hear but it is just interesting that like they didn't there is a line

00:50:12   coming from someone inside of Apple which is saying that like all this stuff can be changed

00:50:17   but as far as we're aware so far it hasn't been and then there was also stuff so Steve

00:50:22   Trout and Smith has found examples and has been tweeting about these of both messages and

00:50:27   shortcuts having catalyst versions and he has found this stuff in the beta of Catalina so the

00:50:35   current beta the developer beta that's available Steve has found evidence and has been able to get

00:50:41   something to run on his local system which is messages written with the catalyst framework

00:50:50   this seems very weird right like why is this in there to a point where it can be launched but is

00:50:59   not something that Apple seems to be shipping or have spoken about yet the frameworks are in there

00:51:06   because the frameworks are in there to be referenced by catalyst but that doesn't

00:51:10   necessarily mean they may be needed in other places or it may be that they were intending

00:51:14   on building those apps but they aren't ready to build them yet but the pieces are in there

00:51:18   it's unclear I would be surprised if shortcuts gets added as an app midstream in the Catalina

00:51:25   beta partially because shortcuts is super confusing if it can only access certain apps

00:51:30   right like but messages is a bigger one though right messages is but my understanding is what

00:51:35   they're doing is they're embedding parts of messages via catalyst in the messages app the

00:51:40   messages app is a hybrid app basically where there are some new things in it that are coming from

00:51:44   catalyst plus they're keeping the existing code base so you know I don't know I think it's

00:51:51   interesting that they're doing that but I think that that is more just a curiosity and that what

00:51:55   they told this is what they intend to ship so all this other stuff is a sign that this is stuff

00:52:00   that's maybe floating around but is not intended to ship that's that's what it looks like for me

00:52:04   but I will I guess I'll kind of I want to get your view on it do you think that Apple is going

00:52:12   to ship a lot of catalyst apps or are they now maybe putting their focus on SwiftUI instead

00:52:17   uh you know catalyst is a vitally important bridging technology for Apple because it allows

00:52:26   their entire base of iOS developers to reach Mac OS and allows Mac OS to get an influx of

00:52:34   stuff from iOS it means that all those developers who built up the skill of developing on iOS

00:52:42   apps over the years can now write software for the the Macs that they use every day to write that

00:52:46   software I think it's going to be I think it's going to be really good for that I think that

00:52:51   there's going to be iOS code around for a long time this you know UI kit code around for a very

00:52:57   long time that people have been building for the app for iOS and the iOS app store

00:53:02   SwiftUI and Swift in general is the future like this is where as you know we heard Josh and Wylie

00:53:11   talk about what last week there are two weeks ago two weeks ago this is the future this is Apple

00:53:20   thinks that this is like how apps are going to be built going forward for you know decade plus

00:53:24   but catalyst has to be good enough to be parked somewhere and I'm not sure it is yet we'll see

00:53:33   how this fall goes but like catalyst is important because Apple wants people to be able to use their

00:53:39   UI kit code across their platforms and then starting now start building things that they can

00:53:46   use SwiftUI to build but if catalyst doesn't work right it's not one of these things where it's like

00:53:51   well we'll abandon catalyst and go to SwiftUI because the whole point is that the the the UI

00:53:57   kit stuff should be portable and come along with for compatibility reasons so what's the priority

00:54:02   who knows how Apple prioritizes things I would think that they're both important right now

00:54:10   but that one of them will become less important over time and the other will become more important

00:54:16   over time and you know SwiftUI will be more important over time but catalyst you know I

00:54:23   think catalyst has more work to be done because they need to be able to make that stuff unless

00:54:29   it's unless it's complete it's it's too important to be able to get that stuff to work everywhere

00:54:35   but it's also just a it's important to view it at this point as a transitional thing it's meant

00:54:40   to provide that compatibility. So what about the new apps then so podcasts you kind of already

00:54:46   mentioned find my but do they feel better than the old apps in a significant way? They do they're

00:54:53   better I think again I'm not sure that these are the platform exemplars I would be I would be

00:54:58   I wonder if we're gonna see you know I'd almost bet that we'll see better Mac apps from third

00:55:04   parties. I feel like it is a little bit not unfair is not the right word but we are not getting the

00:55:11   full picture of what this technology will enable because Apple isn't shipping a lot of their own

00:55:17   apps but I get kind of getting more of the feeling that it's not really for them it's for third

00:55:23   parties to do it right and there is a problem in talking about catalyst now because we haven't seen

00:55:30   the other shoe has not dropped and it's a big shoe. This is why it's important for Apple to build

00:55:37   apps that are platform exemplars right? No I agree with that like I 100% agree with that but they

00:55:42   haven't really haven't yes yeah yeah so that doesn't mean it can't be done they just haven't

00:55:49   done it. I want to put in the show notes as well a great article that John Voorhees wrote

00:55:54   Mac stories today kind of trying to because there seems to be like a lot of the general discussion

00:56:01   about catalyst now is negative like the conversation we are having I have had up to

00:56:05   this point in the episode talking about the bad stuff but there is a lot of promise but

00:56:11   it's just difficult to see it because you can't see it now right because we don't have

00:56:19   the apps right all we have is is basically the stuff that Steve Schotten Smith keeps

00:56:24   retweeting from people who are saying here I'm working on this thing and here's what it looks

00:56:27   like now and we'll have to be the judge of that in the end but it is I think there's a lot of

00:56:33   potential there but in the end does it come off I don't think we can judge it as a success or a

00:56:38   failure yet based on all this you know like the podcast app is fine like it's great and I

00:56:47   I realize that that is sort of damning with faint praise but like after Mojave it's praise like the

00:56:53   podcast apps a real app and it works it's got bugs but I fully expect those bugs to be fixed

00:56:58   they are funny bugs like you click on a list and then you click on another item in the list they

00:57:03   just all select the each item you click on selects it doesn't like move your selection you can't do

00:57:08   things like if you select multiple items and you hit delete or command delete it doesn't do

00:57:13   anything you have to delete things by clicking on a little little circle and choosing delete item

00:57:18   one at a time which again is an iOS interface thing that one they better fix that but that's

00:57:25   a problem that's not just limited to the podcast app there are other apps that are like that too

00:57:30   in fact the podcast app I think lets you let you control click or right click on an item and you

00:57:39   get that same contextual menu that's in the little disk with the three dots whereas the photos app

00:57:45   I believe only has the little three dot thing and if you if you control click or right click

00:57:50   it does nothing which is very not Mac like although I have to ask what's Apple's plan here is Apple's

00:57:56   plan here that alternate clicks because I could see both arguments one argument is on Macs you

00:58:02   have this alternate clicking interface that you don't have on iOS so on Macs you have to

00:58:09   make all the menus of alternate things visible or untappable otherwise you can't ever discover them

00:58:14   you could argue that it's also bad to discover them on the Mac so maybe maybe they should do

00:58:21   that but right now it seems really kind of confusing and inconsistent and I'm not sure

00:58:24   Apple knows what the what they want this to be like if the if the truth is contextual menus

00:58:29   by via control click are just too hard Apple judges for regular people to understand then

00:58:35   that little lozenge that provides a contextual menu should start showing up everywhere but

00:58:43   I don't know that it's not everywhere and you're still control clicking in some places but not in

00:58:48   other places and it's just it's it's it's not surprising since we're going through this

00:58:53   transition because I think Apple is still figuring out where they want to take it and they're not

00:58:59   being as consistent as they should be yet. Because iPadOS is getting a little bit more

00:59:04   a lot more contextually type menus with popovers right like there's a...

00:59:10   Where you're tapping and holding right which is similar to what you could say with a click and

00:59:15   hold or a or a two finger click on a trackpad on the Mac so what does that mean in terms of how

00:59:22   Apple views discoverability of things that are basically invisible until you do a special gesture

00:59:26   I don't know I I'm not seeing a lot of consistency I guess is what I'm saying but but to wind it back

00:59:33   the podcast app is is is fine and its functionality that is fairly complex and that wasn't on the Mac

00:59:41   before because the iTunes version of podcast was really the thing they built in 2005 and it is not

00:59:48   good and the the new podcast app is better and find my is a perfectly nice app but you still have

00:59:53   you know again these are simple apps too and it's funny that Apple doesn't seem to have succeeded

01:00:01   maybe they attempted they don't seem to have succeeded in rolling out a complex system app

01:00:07   that uses catalyst. It is worth noting that as of right now I'm recording the public bet is of iOS

01:00:15   13 and iPadOS have also been released but Jason had pre-knowledge of Mac OS right yes I was able

01:00:26   to spend so much time talking about it today exactly I assume I assume that they would probably

01:00:31   drop them all at once although it does seem awfully early for these versions to be there but

01:00:36   here we are we're on public beta day

01:00:38   so talking about public beta is actually in general they're a better thing to install than

01:00:47   developer betas and a lot of people will put the iPad stuff on because they're excited about it

01:00:52   should anybody be installing the Catalina public beta like why would you want to do this?

01:00:57   I think not yep I think you need to be a developer who like if you want to build a catalyst app you

01:01:08   need to be basically running it in Catalina I think if you're somebody like me who's writing

01:01:13   about it you need to be there even I am not in there with my primary system I'm in there with an

01:01:18   external if you want to play around that's a good way to do it is create a partition or put it on an

01:01:23   external drive but it's beta software it's buggy it's weird it's you know it's okay it didn't

01:01:30   destroy anything but it's also beta software and it's weird and I would wait and let it shake out

01:01:36   if you can possibly wait the nice thing about the Mac is that you can put it on an external

01:01:39   and boot into it which obviously on an iOS device you're stuck once you're there more or less so

01:01:48   I think it's more likely you could do it you want to play around with the new stuff and then reboot

01:01:52   into your safe comfortable home in Mojave. Oh I should also mention I speaking of installing being

01:01:59   why it's a bad idea to install betas on your iOS devices I did that this is this is actually kind

01:02:06   of follow out to connected last week which you weren't on but David Sparks filled in for you

01:02:11   and David and Federico spent a lot of time talking about iOS while Steven did I don't know accounting

01:02:18   and what I wanted to say about it is that Federico talked about the the iOS beta and said well I

01:02:26   installed it and it's pretty it's pretty good on my iPad on the iPhone it's bad but it's pretty good

01:02:31   on my iPad but I but he has to write and then and then and I'm like oh this sounds pretty good maybe

01:02:36   I should do it and then he said but you shouldn't do it he says to the listeners you shouldn't do it

01:02:40   because it's a beta and it's unstable and it has weird things in it and you shouldn't do it he has

01:02:46   had some horrific iCloud problems yeah yeah so I thought to myself okay all right Federico you're

01:02:52   right you're right I won't I won't install it and then he said unless you're writing about this for

01:02:56   a living in which case you should install it and I went oh okay all right Federico yes yes I will

01:03:01   install it and then I came home and I installed it on my main iPad so my main iPad is now running

01:03:04   the iOS 13 beta it's the only cyst primary device that I have that I'm I'm putting on there but

01:03:13   Federico's right like I'm gonna write about it and I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do it on my phone

01:03:18   because I just don't see the need to do that but on my iPad I I think it's been worth it because

01:03:23   once you're on the thing that you actually live with you learn a lot more and I learned a lot more

01:03:27   in the first 24 hours than I had in the previous two weeks because I was actually living with it

01:03:31   that said face ID is unreliable the shortcuts widget doesn't work right like I mean there's

01:03:37   all sorts of things that don't work right because it's a beta of course they don't work right I'm

01:03:42   not holding anybody responsible except myself but it is one of those things that now I'm in the

01:03:47   position to say what Federico said which is unless this is your job to write software for this or

01:03:53   to write about this don't do it it's just not don't do it yet it'll be there it'll be much better

01:03:59   later this summer I really want to do it though I haven't done it I haven't got the bait I haven't

01:04:04   got any betas on any it's your job to talk about it Myke you can totally do it if you want to yeah

01:04:08   I just don't got also you've got multiple iPads you've got multiple iPads so you could pick us at

01:04:12   a sacrificial iPad I just haven't been able to decide which one I want to sacrifice that's hard

01:04:18   that's a real Sophie's choice there for you because I have the one that I use the most or I have the

01:04:23   one that I use when I travel and neither of those feels like the right one to do it on right because

01:04:30   you know you don't want to have problems when you're traveling because it's true if you have

01:04:36   something catastrophic it's difficult to fix it but then if it's bad I'm going to be putting on

01:04:40   the one that I use every day so I just haven't been able to decide I was think I was kind of

01:04:45   waiting for beta 3 for developer beta 3 and I do tend to prefer the developer beta to the

01:04:51   public beta myself because the developer beta tends to have more fixes in it but it's also

01:04:56   probably more unstable but as of right now I mean we don't know what what the public beta is we're

01:05:03   I guess you'd assume it's beta 2 right developer beta 2 so I think so I mean they had me review

01:05:09   straight from the developer second developer beta they didn't have me download something else so my

01:05:13   guess is that it's either that build or it's close to that build it seems it just seems premature I

01:05:20   honestly I'm surprised when they said July I really thought that they were going to take it

01:05:24   uh take it a little bit slower with the public betas and here we are uh June 24th it is weird

01:05:31   so why did they do this like why is it today they said July why have they done it on June 24th

01:05:37   it's very peculiar to me like isn't it what was the harm in waiting another week

01:05:41   was there a harm probably not that I don't know what the benefit is in them doing it

01:05:47   at least a week earlier than they said they would that just seems very peculiar to me it's a

01:05:52   you know we talk about things that an apple like apple delivering something before they said they

01:05:57   would I mean I expected the developer bait would come out on like July 29th right because they said

01:06:04   July so they've given themselves the entire month I assumed it would be early in July but that they

01:06:09   were going to push it off a little bit and they were going to give themselves some breathing room

01:06:13   and then it turns out they didn't give themselves any it's like it's like the kind of promise you

01:06:17   make to yourself we're like oh this time I'm not going to eat that ice cream I'm going to leave it

01:06:22   there I'm only going to eat half that ice cream and then you eat the ice cream right it's like

01:06:26   the policy decision and then there's the it's like a new year's resolution oh no no no no no we're

01:06:30   gonna wait we're gonna wait this year we're gonna be patient this year and then they're not patient

01:06:34   that seems to be what happened the answer the thing that Shoshara said in the chat I hope is

01:06:38   the reason is that the earlier they release it the more time they had to fix things that is the

01:06:42   logical thing right my guess is that they structured this that they did they did a build back in

01:06:48   probably May that was the developer conference build and that their next targeted build was

01:06:56   a public beta candidate and they've been running that public beta candidate internally and it

01:07:02   looked pretty good remember at WWDC we heard from a bunch of people who said oh this beta is a is a

01:07:07   disaster wait for the next one the next one is good so they even at WWDC I think people were

01:07:14   using a beta that they felt was in much better shape that might be these betas and then they

01:07:18   rolled them out to developers last week and it seems to have gone well so that's my guess

01:07:25   is that they they gave themselves enough time that if beta 2 was unstable they could not release it

01:07:33   as a public beta and just do another cycle and get to a better place and that this beta turned out to

01:07:38   be so stable that there was no reason not to put it out that's going to be my that's my inside

01:07:44   baseball theory about what happened is that they were giving themselves time to fix an unstable

01:07:49   beta and it turns out that this one is actually pretty good so the next one will be a disaster

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01:10:31   our thanks to butcher box for their support of this show and all of relay fm and it is time for

01:10:36   some hashtag ask upgrade questions don't forget it is the summer of fun so today's episode is going

01:10:44   to feature a mic at the movies segment of kiki's delivery service which we'll be talking about

01:10:48   after we finish hashtag ask upgrade today our first question today comes from thea and thea wants to

01:10:54   know i have to produce a short run podcast for an organization i volunteer with i can edit with a

01:10:59   10.5 inch ipad pro or an imac is ferrite my best software option for ease of learning and cost

01:11:06   i won't it won't be an income earner so i'm shying away from buying something like logic jason as

01:11:13   somebody who is well more versed in the variety of editing programs than i am i would love to know

01:11:19   what you think about this ferrite is the best deal in podcast editing tools what about garageband

01:11:25   garageband is fine if you want to be on on the mac i don't like it for podcast everything on

01:11:30   on either platform honestly but it's better on the mac than it is on ios for podcast editing

01:11:35   it's free it's got that going for it but um you kind of have to fight it it wants to do music so

01:11:42   it wants to put like echoes on your voices and stuff like that so you have to you have to fight

01:11:47   it more um if you are open to the idea of editing podcasts on an ipad especially like the 12.9 inch

01:11:53   ipad pro uh and if you've got especially if you've got a pencil but even if you don't you've got a

01:11:57   bluetooth keyboard like i i have edited many podcasts on ferrite using nothing but my hands

01:12:03   right not using a keyboard not using the pencil i think it's i think it is the best value in

01:12:09   uh podcast editing software again yes garageband is free but ferrite will not get in your way like

01:12:15   garageband does so if you're willing to spend time working on an ipad i think it's the right choice

01:12:19   and it is you can try it out i think it's free to try and then there are features that you can

01:12:23   buy so you can also give it a try and see what you what you like and what you don't and and again all

01:12:29   in i think it's like 20 or 25 bucks it's it's it's nothing because logic is hundreds of dollars

01:12:33   um i will also recommend to thea to listen to episode 200 of upgrade uh where we just talk

01:12:40   about how we produce podcasts let me talk about return on investment for a podcast episode

01:12:45   that one has been great for me because anytime anybody because i get this question a lot as i'm

01:12:49   sure you you do like i have this question about how to make a show or this question this question

01:12:54   i just send people that url it's in the url that i can easily remember because it was episode 200

01:12:59   it's brilliant i just send it to people all the time and i'm very happy that i have a resource

01:13:02   that i can point people to of like we spoke for nearly two hours about how we make shows

01:13:08   go crazy so yeah yeah oh also um speaking of ferrite i will say there was a nice thread from

01:13:14   canis at wuji juice that makes ferrite that about when we can expect ferrite on the mac and the

01:13:20   answer is don't hold your breath because he wants to do it right and he wants to do a lot of he

01:13:27   needs to do a lot of ios 13 updates first and and it's a good it is the most inspiring disappointing

01:13:36   twitter thread i've seen in a long time in the sense that i really want it now right but what i

01:13:42   like about the thread and why i find it inspirational is he's got his priorities in order he's like i

01:13:46   got to do this thing where they're changing stuff in ios 13 and that's got to be my top priority

01:13:50   i want to make sure that the ios version is solid and then come you know come the fall maybe i'll

01:13:56   work on the the mac version as well and make sure that that is also done appropriately it's a it's

01:14:01   a really nice uh sort of just work in progress twitter thread that he that he posted and uh

01:14:07   i'm excited with the idea of ferrite being on my mac because although i am great at using logic and

01:14:13   i like logic i like the idea of being able to move my projects back and forth between my mac and my

01:14:19   ipad and i can't do that right now i have to commit to one or the other bartech asks recent dropbox

01:14:26   changes have made the product overly complex for what i need which is a simple storage and sync

01:14:30   solution for my large library of documents i found icloudrive to be buggy and not quite suited for

01:14:35   straight syncing in the past do you think that i'll be able to replace dropbox when ios 13 comes out

01:14:41   uh i didn't even mention but there's the new folder folder sharing thing in icloudrive which

01:14:48   is a big feature for some people where that was like one thing that was really keeping them on

01:14:51   dropbox dropbox yeah i don't love the idea of the dropbox i understand it but dropbox has gotten

01:14:57   its business model is is appealing to enterprise to giant enterprise clients and so they're like

01:15:02   we've put google docs and you know all this other stuff inside dropbox in slack right and we're

01:15:07   running it's a it's the app has like all this stuff in it that is beyond what i want as somebody

01:15:14   who uses it for collaboration but i don't use it for slack and i don't use it for for uh for google

01:15:19   docs so um my my hope is that dropbox will be judicious with what it does and that that if

01:15:27   you're just using it on this other level that it won't ruin that product but it might because it's

01:15:32   clearly not the focus i'm very hesitant to the idea that just because a company adds something

01:15:36   that they're changing everything that you use like right i think a lot of the current freaking out

01:15:41   about dropbox is maybe a little bit more than is necessary but like the product at its core is

01:15:47   still the same yeah the signs are there that their priorities have come have shifted kind of away from

01:15:53   this this audience that includes people like us to the enterprise um and that could be a bad sign or

01:16:00   it could be nothing and people do freak out about dropbox there are a lot of people who freak out

01:16:03   about dropbox because of the kernel extensions it uses in order to patch the file system so that it

01:16:09   can behave the way it wants to by the way there's a whole new system to do that in mac os catalina

01:16:16   that ideally will solve a lot of these problems by allowing google google drive and dropbox and

01:16:24   one drive to write to that new file system api in mac os catalina and it may even be related to the

01:16:34   one in ios 13 which is pretty cool i'm not sure about that but um so so it may be the dropbox and

01:16:39   all these other file providers get better in catalina because they will be updated to use

01:16:43   this new system that's a better system that would be cool um but you know this question is about

01:16:48   icloud drive icloud drive is fine it's got some bugs um although i haven't been bothered by them

01:16:54   in a while so it feels like maybe it's getting better oh my god you still have them i am a

01:17:00   i feel like i'm of a increasingly smaller group of people but i have so many problems with files on

01:17:07   my ipad where like oh yeah sure i'm trying to use like i'm trying to use numbers and it just spins

01:17:14   on like a 60k numbers same same that that absolutely happens to me too yes oh yeah i was

01:17:19   i was thinking of it in a mac context but this question is also about ios and yeah in ios right

01:17:23   now um i i have lots of problems with with i with icloud drive where files that are very small just

01:17:32   never come over and you're stuck and you have no feedback also i have problems with dropbox and

01:17:39   ios 13 where um they get out of sync where the files app doesn't really know what's in dropbox

01:17:45   and you have to go to the dropbox app which negates the point of having dropbox show up in

01:17:48   the files app again again some hope with ios 13 that drop mark dropbox on ios may be better

01:17:55   my guess is that dropbox on ios is not going to get as ruined as dropbox on the mac potentially

01:18:00   by all of these business changes they're making but i i agree with you apple's got to clean up

01:18:06   the icloud drive experience on ios because um in files right now it can be a disaster

01:18:11   so basically the answer to the question bar tech is it's too early to tell yeah yeah maybe

01:18:18   maybe but you may not need to it's really very much like you may not need to because dropbox

01:18:23   might be okay you may not be able to because the buggy stuff that's in icloud on in the files app

01:18:29   may still be there i wish i had an answer we are watching these betas too this is the funniest

01:18:35   thing about the summer with betas is you've got all your little pet bugs that drive you

01:18:40   crazy and you get these versions of it and you're like did they fix it and you don't know it's a

01:18:45   crapshoot you have no idea whether this little bug was fixed eight months ago or whether they

01:18:51   are not even aware that it exists i don't know i like the idea of pet bugs that drive you crazy

01:18:57   yeah that's that's fun for me because it's like a little pet bug it's like oh you're driving

01:19:01   this could be a plot of a plot of a totoro movie uh on the last episode in our app draft um i

01:19:08   mentioned threes as an app that got put onto the home screen because i still play all the time and

01:19:13   forgo wants to know what is my high score for somebody who plays the game a lot actually my

01:19:18   high score is not massive compared to some of the scores that i've seen it's 63 657 that is my

01:19:24   highest score in threes i uh beat your high score in uh you did yeah you sent me you sent me a

01:19:32   screenshot of that i did i marked it up you circled it circled where you were circled where i was did

01:19:37   a little arrow thanks much appreciated kevin wants to know what are the chances that apple gets back

01:19:43   into the rotor game referencing homekit for routers an opportunity i know i said that

01:19:47   differently both times but that's just my life referencing home for routers an opportunity to

01:19:53   grow services revenue via subscriptions similar to aero and additional privacy controls so this

01:19:58   was shown off on stage at wbc and as one of the things that's getting added to homekit is support

01:20:04   for routers and they showed a bunch of products including aero as one that's going to be added

01:20:08   into this system my feeling on this is the fact that they have added this support into homekit is

01:20:13   more of a reason that apple will not be getting back into the router game because they are

01:20:17   blessing a bunch of companies uh with from a security standpoint basically feels that way to

01:20:23   me feels that way to me that this is a apple is going to build it's going to work with router

01:20:27   developers on features rather than build their own thing because this by by drawing that like cause

01:20:34   and effect apple would then make light bulbs which they're not going to do i would love apple to see

01:20:41   networking hardware and vpn as a business opportunity to expand their privacy and security

01:20:48   brand but my guess based on reading the tea leaves is that they've decided it's a can of worms they

01:20:56   don't want to open and that they're better off working with vpn providers and router providers

01:21:01   and just not getting not setting foot in that area because while it would be a good fit for them

01:21:09   to vpn everything and have the most stable and secure router for your home and all of those

01:21:15   things i think maybe this is a case where they they survey the landscape or no like that's kind

01:21:21   of a lot for us to take on we don't need to there's plenty of options out there we're fine

01:21:26   personally i'm happier with them providing tools like homekit than building their own hardware so

01:21:31   then i can still choose what i want yeah but still benefit from the security stuff like that i i find

01:21:37   that to be a better trade-off for what i want to do uh dimitar says you keep mentioning how you like

01:21:42   to use uh how you want to have widgets on your ipad visible all the time but i really want to

01:21:47   know what widgets do you use and that is a good question because i know i've been saying it a lot

01:21:51   like i'm really excited to have widgets on my own on my home screen so i should which i mentioned

01:21:56   the widgets that i use every single day so i use the shortcuts widget um i use the widget for

01:22:01   time re fantastic gal and cal zones and todoist i use those widgets every single day and the

01:22:06   batteries widget as well and i use them all the time so um they're the ones for me uh

01:22:12   shortcuts for sure uh fantastic cal um those are the biggest ones carrot weather

01:22:18   yeah but shortcuts is the big one because not only is that um i use shortcuts but you can run them

01:22:26   from the widget it is the fastest way to look to run a bunch of shortcuts is with the widget that

01:22:34   is a pro tip yeah um andrew asks what case or cover do you use of your ipads when you're not

01:22:41   using the bridge keyboard i don't use anything because if it's not in the bridge keyboard it's

01:22:47   only ever out of it for a little while and i'll either have it in my stand the clear look stand

01:22:51   that i use clear look of a k um or i don't use any case at all i use i'm finding myself using the

01:23:00   apple smart cover folio whatever they call it the one without the keyboard yeah a lot because it's

01:23:09   super thin and light and i use that a lot and then i'll put it in a keyboard case or a stand if i

01:23:16   want but i i i've sort of fallen back to just give me a little thing that covers it yeah yeah i i use

01:23:24   it not in the bridge keyboard so infrequently right that i don't feel like i need to have a

01:23:29   case on it and i actually then just enjoy having the super thin and light ipad in my hands in those

01:23:34   times um so i just haven't used the case at all in those circumstances um i did want to mention

01:23:40   they did send me a press release for this but i'll just mention it i didn't ask me to but i will

01:23:45   the the bridge keyboards are in stock now because i know before they were doing pre-orders so if

01:23:49   you've heard about one if you've heard us talk about one of these before and haven't got them

01:23:52   you can just you can just buy them and they ship them now rather than needing to wait

01:23:57   i'm still very very happy with my bridge keyboard i absolutely love them on both of my ipads and i'm

01:24:03   really really happy with it so it still gets a big like after months of using it that's still

01:24:08   thoroughly recommended from me so yep if you are interested all right that is a hashtag ask

01:24:14   upgrade you can always send in uh questions for the show to send out a tweet with the hashtag

01:24:18   ask upgrade and we are going to move into our summer fun topic for this episode which is talking

01:24:24   about the miyazaki movie kiki's delivery service but before we do let me thank our final sponsor

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01:24:49   pdf pen 11 is a huge upgrade and the new version includes some wonderful features like a split view

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01:25:04   phone so you may have forgotten about this feature it was introduced with mahave i think where you

01:25:09   can use your iphone's camera for an app on your mac so you can take a piece of paper use the camera

01:25:21   and scan that into pdf pen on the mac which is awesome you also have the ability to add

01:25:26   multiple items to the pdf pen library simultaneously and so much more i use pdf

01:25:32   pen on all of my devices on my mac on my ipad on my iphone all the time probably every day it was

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01:25:50   find out more about pdf pen 11 our thanks to pdf pen from smile for their support of this show and

01:25:57   all of relay fm so jason is our summer of fun topic for this episode summer of fun we're going

01:26:04   to be doing the mike at the movies kiki's delivery service yes um i don't know if this was particularly

01:26:10   a summer movie but it was we did total roll last time so it felt right to i feel like you want to

01:26:15   induct me into mizuki movies now if it was i do i do and if you if it's windy where you are in

01:26:21   the summertime then it's perfect because it's all about the wind and there's rain too there's rain

01:26:26   as well you know sometimes there is yeah the weather the weather is is a major i would say mike

01:26:32   that the major uh uh antagonist in kiki's delivery service is the weather okay we'll get to that we'll

01:26:41   get to that all right um i want to talk about as i usually do with mike at the movie segments is what

01:26:48   i kind of thought before i watched the movie this this movie so kiki's delivery service which is

01:26:55   another miyazaki movie we you know you we spoke about totoro last time um i knew nothing about

01:27:01   this movie um i know that people love it but i didn't know about this episode as much as i knew

01:27:09   about totoro right like totoro is just like that's just a character you know right because you see

01:27:14   the soft toys everywhere or like it's just part of kind of um pop culture in general i think the

01:27:19   totoro character and kiki's delivery service at least for me doesn't have a thing like that where

01:27:26   i would be familiar with something in the movie having never seen the movie yeah sure i agree

01:27:33   i agree it does not have that kind of iconic pop culture uh character that you see in a stuffed

01:27:41   animal or something like that or that everybody talks about and that is it's just it's not that

01:27:45   kind of movie and what is your history with this movie how many times have you seen it

01:27:49   i have seen it i don't know countless number of times 10 15 like lots of times um and it's the

01:27:57   first miyazaki movie i saw okay um i first heard about miyazaki by the review of uh this movie when

01:28:05   it was released in the us and it was um so it was reviewed on like uh the cisco and ebert show which

01:28:14   was the movie weekly movie review show um and they were huge boosters of it and it was literally a

01:28:19   thing i'd never heard of i thought that was interesting roger ebert put it on his best movies

01:28:23   of the year list at the end of the year and that surprised me so i i suppose probably the first

01:28:27   time i heard about it was watching their best of the year episode in whenever 1990 what 1989 19

01:28:37   i don't know when it was when it came out in the us um late 80s early 90s in the us yeah and uh

01:28:45   i i was like oh well that's interesting and i don't think i saw it for another five or ten

01:28:49   years or whenever i think i didn't see it until it came out on on home video in the us which was

01:28:54   in the late 90s um but it became it's delightful i i was i was enchanted the first time i saw it and

01:29:00   have uh have enjoyed it every time we we talked about we did a miyazaki episode of the incomparable

01:29:05   and then we've gone back and we've done episodes about every miyazaki movie uh one by one not we

01:29:10   haven't gotten to all of them but we've done a bunch and i think this was the first one we did

01:29:14   for that and uh yeah i just uh that was so so i also have a relationship with it where when i

01:29:20   first saw it i didn't have kids and then i had little kids and then bigger kids and the bigger

01:29:25   kids and the bigger and so like every time i watch it and when i watch it with them they have

01:29:29   different memories because they've always you know it's been around for their whole life so they've

01:29:33   reacted to it in different ways over time and you know likewise i've been uh i i'm now even though

01:29:39   kiki is young when she leaves home you know i am now at the point where my daughter is going to

01:29:43   leave home to go off to college this fall and so it has yet another kind of set of colors to it as

01:29:48   the parents at the beginning say you know say goodbye to her and she flies off on her broom

01:29:53   on her mom's broom not the broom she made i did find that bit actually at the beginning like a

01:29:58   little bit it was like interesting and sad but i don't want to talk about the beginning of the

01:30:02   movie just yet because i have a lot to say about it i just kind of wanted to uh wrap it i watched

01:30:08   the english dub version which came from you because it's impossible to find these movies

01:30:14   you have to buy them on disc is basically how you have to do it uh john saracusa disapproves of you

01:30:18   watching the english dub i approve i think it's a good dub i think it's very good that's my preferred

01:30:22   way of watching it i have watched it uh with subtitles it is an interesting different experience

01:30:27   and it's always fun for me again like kirsten dunst plays kiki i like that these movies very

01:30:32   very young kirsten dunst exactly they have these people that become like mega stars later on like

01:30:38   we had uh was it one of the olsons played uh the character in toto but anyway um so it's like super

01:30:45   interesting uh no it was um dakota fanning right it's dakota fanning yeah yeah yeah um so i i would

01:30:52   say on the whole i will kind of give my spoiler for how i what i thought about this movie i did

01:30:57   not like this as much as toto but i did enjoy it i think it's missing something that toto has

01:31:05   for me uh what that might be it uh that i and i have some more thoughts about that later on

01:31:13   but i don't know if it's that so much because toto doesn't really

01:31:17   well it's kind of similar in this movie into this movie yes they're very similar in in that

01:31:22   they're kind of episodic and there's no no villain essentially the stakes don't exist like they're so

01:31:27   low until something happens right like there are no stakes in this movie until the dirigible is

01:31:34   is in trouble right all of the other stakes are just like super simple regular life stuff which

01:31:40   is the same as total row or it's like little things are happening until the young girl goes missing

01:31:46   right and then the stakes that's when the stakes of the movie but it's like the last 30 minutes of

01:31:50   the movie right other than that they're both sort of like sets of short stories and there's a little

01:31:55   more of a character i mean there's character arcs kiki definitely has a character arc she's

01:31:59   learning about herself it's a journey of self-discovery for her but uh yeah they're

01:32:04   similar and i i would say the other thing in this is that and and i find that people are split about

01:32:10   like toto row and kiki a toto row is cuter and it's like because it's got the it's got all the

01:32:17   it's got adorable little kid and it's got all the fun little little toto rows and i i think toto row

01:32:23   is a cuter movie whereas kiki's delivery service is a coming of age movie and yes even though

01:32:30   there's magic in it you know it is basically the magic of of kiki's flying on a broomstick and uh

01:32:38   her talking cat and that's that's what the magic is talking cat what uh and and so that that is

01:32:45   it's just it's a different it's a different flavor for sure than toto i also i find toto row to be

01:32:50   just so weird and also so remote even though there are people around they're kind of off in

01:32:54   in nowhere and kiki is a movie about her finding her way in a city so there are a bunch of people

01:33:00   around and she's she's um you know learning about that too so the the texture of it is very different

01:33:05   and i think that may be why they they um they feel different and different people have their

01:33:09   favorites uh it also may be that i just came to kiki first and so i i love it and then i saw toto

01:33:15   and i was like oh that's great too this is one of the things that i was wondering it's like do

01:33:18   do i love toto more because i saw it first like i wonder if that might be it where um going into

01:33:25   this movie i had a greater expectation and understanding of what i was going to be seeing

01:33:30   you know like i knew it was going to be like super chill and like slice of life which this is like

01:33:35   when i say there's no stakes obviously these things are important to the character but like

01:33:38   in the grand scheme of making a dramatic movie um you know getting wet in a delivery it's not like

01:33:46   huge right it's not like huge blockbuster stakes but uh but so i feel like i had a better feeling

01:33:54   of that's what this movie's gonna be like going into this one where in toto everything was a

01:33:59   surprise and as i spoke about last time as well right like i kept waiting for the thing and was

01:34:06   like oh is that gonna be bad is that gonna be bad and where in this movie i was kind of letting it

01:34:11   wash over me more because i figured i have a better understanding of what's going to happen

01:34:17   towards the end of this movie here like looking at the cards that are being dealt um so it was

01:34:22   very different so one thing i absolutely loved about this movie was how they spend no time

01:34:29   establishing that witches exist i think that is fantastic it's kind of just like within like the

01:34:36   first five lines of the movie you basically know all of the backstory and exposition for the fact

01:34:41   that there are witches exist and at the age of 13 they go out on their own for a year to train

01:34:45   it's like there is nothing more than that and i kind of love that because it's like well this

01:34:50   isn't at all what i was expecting uh and i think that that is a really fun way to set up something

01:34:57   that is so kind of wild is just to spend no time dealing with it except for the fact that you now

01:35:03   know everything you need within like two minutes yeah and her mom is a you know potion witch or

01:35:08   whatever and this is just a coming of age thing and it's there and also the theme of the movie

01:35:12   is there from the very beginning which is uh at 13 witches at 13 they go out on their own and it's

01:35:18   you know this is the you know it is it is an age that 13 14 this is when uh young you know this is

01:35:26   when girls become women basically in many many many cultures for lots of reasons including

01:35:32   biological reasons right and that's that's not said in this but like that's part of this is

01:35:36   kiki is going from being a girl to being a woman and this is what witches do they go out on their

01:35:41   own and they find their way and it is it is like literally being a witch means you have a coming of

01:35:46   age adventure because you leave home and find your fortune and uh and all the parents can do is say

01:35:52   well remember when you know we we were that young and then and then they have to just let them go

01:35:57   because she has to do it on her own yeah i couldn't help but think of pokemon um because this is

01:36:02   basically what happens in pokemon like you hit a certain age and then like you're a child but

01:36:06   you're just sent out into the world right like off you go you've got to go and grow up now and like it

01:36:12   it was just like a funny thing to me to be like oh yeah this is like what happens with pokemon

01:36:16   trainers they go out into the world um the i kind of love how geographically ambiguous that city is

01:36:24   it's like kind of london kind of paris in japan labeled as hawaii it's like it's not it's going on

01:36:30   and it's not so it is uh that's an interesting read on it so the truth is it's northern europe

01:36:37   it is not meant to be japan even though it's for a japanese audience it's meant to be northern europe

01:36:41   okay um but when she's looking at the map there are hawaiian place names i don't even there are

01:36:47   they're not there's so much nonsense writing because there's also like there's there's the

01:36:52   name of the shop which is kind of nonsense and it's all you'll see there's there's umlauts and

01:36:56   stuff in it so the story is that miyazaki and his collaborators uh went to sweden and they went to

01:37:02   they spent time in stockholm and they spent time in visby which is a little town on the island of

01:37:07   gottland in the baltic sea i've been to both of those places all right let me tell you when i

01:37:12   watch this movie i'm like oh yeah i see it like it's a very stockholm it's very based on stockholm

01:37:18   and the more pastoral stuff is visby yeah there was like double decker buses and the london

01:37:23   underground sign also trolleys though those uh those street trolleys which are kind of

01:37:28   amsterdamish and and yeah but also stockholm yeah yeah so there's just like a bunch it was like

01:37:32   really fun for me like this place is everywhere so he's delivery service he miyazaki wants it to be

01:37:38   said in in a you know uh indeterminate but like he wanted that northern european kind of vibe

01:37:45   which is which is i think an interesting choice because most of his movies are just

01:37:48   in japan or in a magical world that is very much like japan but but kiki is different in that way

01:37:54   and and yes that it is hilarious that so much of it it's got uh you know roman letters that maybe

01:38:00   japanese audiences can read maybe they can't uh but it doesn't matter because they're mostly

01:38:04   nonsense and they're just meant to be like you know sending the message that this isn't japan

01:38:08   it was just really fun it's like what where is this place right because yeah it was like so when

01:38:14   they're looking at the map there was there were some places i'm sure that i saw like haliakala

01:38:19   which is like a mountain in maui that's listed on the map and it's like what is going on it was kind

01:38:25   of one of my favorite things is where is this movie now like i really liked that that was that

01:38:30   was a lot of fun for me um the i guess the the the putting the delivery service into kiki's delivery

01:38:37   service is she becomes a livery person because she can fly and the whole idea is witches have

01:38:44   to find out what their role is going to be yeah i really liked that the way that kind of like

01:38:50   which is a dealt with in this movie it isn't necessarily what you would expect like when

01:38:56   you don't really know what you're going into most people are kind of like ambivalent to it

01:39:02   and then some people think that it's really exciting but everybody is very aware of the

01:39:07   fact that witches exist and they're not like hesitant towards it in any way which is especially

01:39:13   weird because it is established that there are not many yeah well i mean she ends up in that in that

01:39:18   city and she's like hey do you guys have witches here and they're like no we haven't had witches

01:39:21   here you know in hundreds of years or whatever like that she's like that's great and that's it

01:39:26   and it's kind of fascinating to me again just as like uh here's like a hallmark of this type of

01:39:31   movie that that is not the thing like every other movie would be about making it the thing of like

01:39:38   she's persecuted and then has to like save a child in the town and then she is uh accepted but like

01:39:44   there is no requirement for her acceptance even though she is a clear outsider and she goes

01:39:51   through that right like she feels it herself but her kind of feeling of being an outsider

01:39:56   has kind of got nothing to do with the fact that she's a witch she's just a young girl trying to

01:40:00   fit into a new place right and and it's very it's just like a super interesting thing where it's

01:40:05   like every time you think you know what this movie is going to be when you apply typical maybe western

01:40:11   movie ideals or just like typical movie ideals in general uh you are surprised by the fact that it

01:40:17   is not that it is way smaller right like everything is is smaller yeah there's no whole like story arc

01:40:24   about how there's discrimination against witches and it's just not her being a witch is a curiosity

01:40:29   it's almost like it's a personality quirk right it's that she does that has this cool thing she

01:40:33   can do it's like her her skill but it's not that's not any any more than that other than the fact she

01:40:38   has to wear the dress the black dress but other than that and it's like that so there's other

01:40:42   little things like that i enjoy when when gg gets left in the house right and i really enjoyed the

01:40:49   animation of gg the cat sweating when the dog is coming near them i thought that was kind of

01:40:55   hilarious uh that i really like that but then that is all resolved so quickly it's like oh i thought

01:41:01   there was going to be more than it's just like oh she just went and she had to like negotiate with

01:41:06   the artist lady uh to get the cat doll back and then she just then nothing happens to the dog the

01:41:13   dog just helps them do the trade and then that's it's dealt with i i i know i keep talking about

01:41:19   it but like that's that's what i do enjoy in these movies is them playing with my idea of idea of

01:41:25   where they're going um it's it's a lot of fun for me because it's so different i really enjoy it

01:41:31   i'd say it's almost more lifelike too in the sense that life is really just sort of a sequence of

01:41:35   small stories of things that happen and you don't see that a lot in movies where they build up this

01:41:41   whole kind of story arc of like oh this thing at the beginning is going to mean something at the

01:41:44   end and it's not it's not like that there's certainly stuff that comes back just like in life

01:41:48   you meet somebody and then you go see them later and that stuff happens but it's shaped it's not

01:41:53   shaped like we've been trained to expect are there any parts of this movie that are particularly

01:42:01   meaningful or stick out in your mind like when you think of this movie i so it's funny i think my

01:42:08   the part that sticks out for me the most is the old lady with her uh assistant who uh at one point

01:42:18   is is pretending to ride the broom because she's an enthusiast for flying things way too excited

01:42:22   about the dirigible disaster super excited about that she can't she can't believe that it's a yeah

01:42:29   it's a weird character but and then there's the nice old lady and they uh she wants to bake a

01:42:35   herring and pumpkin pot pie for her uh for well sweden uh for for her her granddaughter for her

01:42:43   birthday but the oven isn't working and kiki you know helps her to build the fire and all that and

01:42:48   then they bake it but then it's late and it's raining and she gets it there and i really love

01:42:52   in that it's so sad but it's that scene where the the girl comes to the door and it's actually one

01:42:56   of the girls who hangs out with the boys who um who are seen throughout the movie and sort of

01:43:02   hang out with tombo the the the the kid who likes kiki and and is trying to build a flying machine

01:43:07   because he can't fly and she can which is a cute little character thing but anyway she comes to the

01:43:12   door uh this girl and she's like oh it's one of grandma's stupid pies um and and uh closes the

01:43:19   door and kiki just says how can they be or no it's the cat says how could they be related because the

01:43:25   lady is so nice and her granddaughter is so awful and i just that always has stuck with me that in

01:43:30   some ways there are so few villains in this movie but one of the big villains other than the weather

01:43:35   in kiki is this ungrateful granddaughter like the the the nice old lady has tried really hard and

01:43:41   kiki's really helped her to get this give her this present and she doesn't care um and i just thought

01:43:46   it's just kind of bittersweet and interesting and uh and that's a funny line about how how could she

01:43:51   possibly be related to that nice old lady it's great that that's strange but that sticks with me

01:43:57   i think more than that and the fact that when she first takes off at the beginning of the movie

01:44:00   and then later in the movie this happens again i love the animation where she's bumping against

01:44:05   the trees at the beginning and later on when she's trying to fly she ends up kind of like coming up

01:44:09   against buildings and kicking off with her legs like it feels very dreamlike in a way and and and

01:44:16   also so much work to animate that that uh those little details where she's kind of brushing against

01:44:22   things and kind of throwing out an elbow or putting down a foot in order to not crash into something

01:44:27   as she's kind of tenuously flying around those are those are sort of the two things that really

01:44:31   stick with me when i think about this movie yeah i like that whole scene well i like the whole thing

01:44:36   when she's like trying to to relearn to fly right and she's like running down that mountain

01:44:40   not mountain like the hillside hillside and she's like falling into the ditch and stuff but yeah

01:44:45   when when she then takes that and i figure it's like part that she uh is trying to like get the

01:44:51   confidence and also that the broom is weird right that she's just kind of like can't control it

01:44:56   because it's not like a regular broom for her um which i like i did actually kind of laugh to

01:45:01   myself that it's like oh witches can fly with any broom turns out it's just got to be a broom and

01:45:08   then i'm starting to think in my brain of like all right so why what what is it about brooms right

01:45:13   like i kind of like that thought it's like oh any broom can fly they just don't necessarily fly when

01:45:18   she's looking for a broom or i know she's looking for a broom this time there's a guy standing in

01:45:22   the street with a ladder and i thought yeah try that can you fly a ladder yeah yeah give it a shot

01:45:30   it's just anything anything really she's like just a wood a wooden object i don't know maybe

01:45:35   there was there's a mop at one point and i thought i thought uh could you just fly a mop maybe i

01:45:40   don't know if it's not wet is it too heavy if it's wet i mysteries of kiki yeah uh tombow needs to

01:45:46   get some chill that's my my my reading on tombow tombow needs to just get some chill this boy who

01:45:54   likes you is hanging out outside the bakery in the rainstorm he's a little intense yeah he he needs

01:46:02   with just like everything about him needs to get he needs to get some chill he does a decent job

01:46:07   when she brings the bread uh when sono like kind of hashes a devious plan she like brings the order

01:46:13   to him and then he's more of like a regular person but up until that point it's like dude just just

01:46:18   calm down a little bit like and you might be okay here which is kind of hilarious yeah well and the

01:46:25   whole bakery family kind of thing you mentioned of sono like she's pregnant and her husband is the is

01:46:30   the strong silent type he doesn't he just kind of grunts and doesn't really say anything and uh they

01:46:35   offer her the place to stay and she works in the bakery and also delivers stuff and it's just uh

01:46:40   it's just kind of homey and and and nice and sweet and it when she meets her it's that it's a great

01:46:46   little meeting scene where the baby has left its pacifier behind and kiki says oh i can deliver it

01:46:51   and that shot i love that shot so much she takes the the pacifier and then she just runs to the the

01:46:57   the wall and jumps over it and then the bakery lady is like like oh no she's just jumped to her

01:47:03   death and then she looks over and just a little little witch is flying away it's like i love that

01:47:08   that's great um i also love the importance of that pacifier right like everything it's too important

01:47:16   like she's screaming down the mountain right like like the hillside i keep calling it a mountain and

01:47:21   it's just like it's it's really funny to me that's like i'm just gonna it's like such a big thing

01:47:25   that has to be dealt with yeah the fact is there is another pacifier just like it at home but she's

01:47:30   gonna scream the whole way home that's what's gonna happen there but as a as a parent i can say

01:47:35   that now but at the time it's still like oh no that baby it's like the biggest threat in the world is

01:47:41   oh no that baby doesn't have a pacifier if we don't get it back to that baby in five minutes

01:47:45   it'll explode exactly that's how it's treated it's like uh it just has to be done but you know it's

01:47:51   just a sad baby that left something behind to the bakery a question for you yeah do do you think that

01:47:58   kiki ever hears gg talk again okay so on the incomparable we spent a long time debating why

01:48:09   the cat stops talking and whether the cat ever starts talking again a long time and i think it's

01:48:14   purposeful in the movie to realize that nobody else can hear gg anyway i just thought gg was

01:48:20   talking cat not the witches can talk to black cats and because it's more than the talking

01:48:27   all of the cat's mannerisms change when it finds a mate right so it's not just that she doesn't have

01:48:37   the same powers anymore gg just becomes like a regular cat and yeah it's like and then because

01:48:48   then there's this whole question of like did she ever even lose her powers in the first place like

01:48:51   she may have just been dealing with a crisis of confidence and gg becoming a real cat or making

01:48:57   a choice to be a real cat rather than a magic cat uh kind of threw her off base so what is your

01:49:02   feeling on this then so there are many many theories about this it is interesting that

01:49:07   her loss of confidence is also tied in with her lack of the ability to understand him

01:49:11   and so that makes it even more complicated um i'll i'll complicate it further mike in the original

01:49:20   disney english dub with phil hartman the cat talks again at the end oh gosh okay and miyazaki

01:49:28   actually was like nope nope nope nope nope and so the version that that you saw and that is available

01:49:35   now on video in with english-speaking countries they actually took out a lot of the stuff they

01:49:42   added in to make it more match what miyazaki went and and the cat doesn't talk again at the end so

01:49:49   miyazaki says it's it he doesn't want you to hear the cat talking at the end i think the implication

01:49:53   is that uh not so much because the cat is like has is has found a mate and is having kittens

01:50:01   a little black and white kittens uh and i think it's that she's grown up that that i think is the

01:50:08   right interpretation anybody can have it i think it's that it's the coming of age it is literally

01:50:15   part of the coming of age is that when you become an adult which you are not your child self anymore

01:50:23   and the child self talks to the cat but the adults don't that and and it's just all of the parts of

01:50:29   things of of growing up and we had a whole deep debate about this and the incomparable but that's

01:50:34   that's where i come down is that i at this point is that i think it's it's just she's grown up and

01:50:40   so she doesn't hear the cat anymore okay i you know what i think that that that matches that

01:50:47   makes a lot of sense to me because the mannerisms of gg don't change at the end of the movie again

01:50:54   like still looks like a cat right not like a character um so yeah i think okay yeah i think

01:51:02   that makes sense yeah but it is it is an interesting little little quirk of the movie that you think

01:51:08   that she's losing contact with the cat because she's losing contact with her powers but it's

01:51:11   really something bigger which is that she's she's got to find her uh self-confidence and grow into

01:51:18   the woman that she needs to be and she goes off and has her little walkabout with the uh with the

01:51:23   artist out in the forest which is a nice callback that the artist comes and gets her and that's uh

01:51:28   i forget her name ursula maybe but it's uh jenny garofalo in the dub and uh they go out and she

01:51:34   talks about how she had trouble drawing uh and then she went through this creative period where

01:51:40   she uh she figured it out and then she was able to be creative again and and and gives that advice

01:51:45   as somebody who went through it and i think that's all really good so i think that in the end you

01:51:49   know the crisis of confidence is really just part of the growing up part of of kiki's journey

01:51:55   i like this movie a lot i didn't enjoy it as much as toto ro but that's not to say i didn't enjoy it

01:52:02   i just have a favorite i think um out of the two and i look forward to the next um miyazaki movie

01:52:11   that you sent me jason so okay so i i will i will caution you i think these are the two best ones

01:52:16   that's fine and i i think that there are not i'm not sure there's another miyazaki movie that's

01:52:21   quite like these two this is my favorite miyazaki the other miyazaki movies have some of them are

01:52:29   really kind of psychedelic and some of them are very much more traditionally plotted which is not

01:52:34   to say that they aren't great but they are uh they are a little less of this kind of um what if we

01:52:41   made a movie without a much of a plot and no bad guys and it was just a story a nice story about

01:52:47   people living their lives in interesting ways with magic uh i'm not sure there are other movies that

01:52:53   are quite like this other than maybe ponio which is about a fish and is super weird but we'll get

01:53:01   to that another time all right if you want to find the show notes for this week's episode you can go

01:53:06   to relay.fm upgrade slash two five one we have some great summer of fun episodes planned over

01:53:14   the next few weeks with some very special guests so you can look out for those i'm excited about

01:53:19   our next few weeks of summer of fun episodes um i want to thank again our wonderful sponsors for

01:53:24   this episode astropad studio express vpn butcher box and pdf pen 11 from smile you can find jason

01:53:31   online at six colors dot com and @jsnell on twitter i am @imike and we'll be back next time

01:53:40   until then say goodbye jason snell goodbye everybody

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