0:00:00[Music]
0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade Episode 243, brought to you by Hello, Luna Display and
0:00:15Butchobox. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi Jason Snell.
0:00:19Hi Myke Hurley, how are you? I am very well fine and dandy indeed and I have a hashtag
0:00:24SnellTalkQuestion from number one Upgrading Casey who wants to know if you could watch
0:00:30a movie or series for the first time all over again, what would it be?
0:00:35Hmm, that's a good question from number one fan Casey. I think I'm gonna say Lost.
0:00:42And I know that's controversial because a lot of people don't like how Lost ended, but
0:00:45you know I loved Lost. I loved the whole thing. If you didn't like how it ended, wouldn't
0:00:49that make it the perfect show to watch this way? So like if you ever did watch it again,
0:00:53you wouldn't remember how badly it ended? I also feel like one of the big problems with
0:00:56Lost at the time, because Lost was a very modern show, a little bit, it was a little
0:01:00bit before its time, and because it was network TV, there were long gaps between episodes.
0:01:07So you get like eight episodes and then they'd be off for six weeks and then you get four
0:01:11episodes and then it would be off for five weeks. And I would love to watch that show
0:01:16for the first time being able to basically binge it or at least you know watch it at
0:01:21my own pace over the course of a few weeks instead of having to stretch it out over years
0:01:25with huge gaps in between seasons. Because I think the show plays a lot better when you're
0:01:32not losing narrative momentum every six episodes as they stop for a rerun break. So I have
0:01:39been meaning to do a Lost rewatch and I will at some point, but in the meantime I think
0:01:44that's gonna be my answer. It's not my favorite show, although it probably is in my top five
0:01:48of all time, but I think it would be the one that would benefit the most. And for movies
0:01:53I don't think I have an answer for movies. There are a lot of movies that I love, I'm
0:01:57not sure there's a movie that I would want to... I feel like the going for the ride for
0:02:02a TV show where you don't know where it's going is just more fulfilling over the long
0:02:06haul than a single movie.
0:02:07I think that for this question TV shows are better than movies, unless it's like a movie
0:02:12series right? Like if you wanted to watch Star Wars you know.
0:02:17Yeah or all the Marvel movies, something like that.
0:02:19Yeah, that would take a long time to watch all the Marvel movies. People do that though,
0:02:24do you see that? Like I saw people doing that, they do like a three or four day basically
0:02:29live in the cinema. I couldn't imagine watching movies that way. You could lose your mind.
0:02:34Yes.
0:02:35Thank you to Number One Upgrading Casey for sending in this Snell Talk question. If you
0:02:39want to have a question to help open a future episode of Upgrade just send out a tweet with
0:02:44the hashtag SnellTalk and it may be considered for future use.
0:02:49We have very exciting news, we have merchandise available for you right now.
0:02:55Right now.
0:02:56Upgradeyourwardrobe.com, that is upgradeyourwardrobe.com, there's also links in our show notes. Look
0:03:02the Summer of Fun is approaching, right? We can hear the waves crashing, we know it's
0:03:06on the way and we thought to ourselves, you know, we want to make sure that the Upgradients
0:03:12are ready for the summer, people are headed to the beach. Luckily for all of us, you don't
0:03:17have to leave Dongletown behind because now you can join the Dongletown Surf Club. We
0:03:23have a whole range of items available including a Dongletown Surf Club tea and tank top so
0:03:29you're ready for the beach, a Dongletown Surf Club tote bag and quite possibly, in my opinion,
0:03:35the greatest podcast merchandise ever created, the Dongletown. Yes, we've made a beach towel.
0:03:42It says Dongletown Surf Club on it. It's true. It's true. Also the classic Dongletown
0:03:48t-shirt is back in stock in the Navy variation and this is our pre-WWDC get ready for the
0:03:56Summer of Fun Ensemble.
0:03:59We're doing it now because we want to make sure that like, so basically you can buy it
0:04:02now. It's available till May 13th. It should arrive before WWDC if you're in the US. That's
0:04:07why we're doing it right now. That's why ATP are doing theirs right now also. So if you
0:04:12haven't yet bought ATP merch, why don't you buy it all together and just pay once for
0:04:16shipping? We, I will say, I love, we had such great response to the original Dongletown
0:04:24tea. This is my favorite of the two design-wise. I think this is perfect. This has a couple
0:04:31of excellent puns on it. I would say read all the text out loud. That would be my tip
0:04:37to you. Just read it all out loud because you might notice something you wouldn't have
0:04:41noticed otherwise. And I want to just mention about the towel. So it's an actual beach towel,
0:04:47like a real deal beach towel. We're working with our friends at Cotton Bureau. This is
0:04:52why I love working with Cotton Bureau because Jason said to me, wouldn't it be nice if we
0:04:56did a towel? And I said, Jason, yes, it definitely would be. So I contacted our friends at Cotton
0:05:03Bureau. I told them what we wanted to do and they do what they always do for me, which
0:05:07I appreciate so much when I come up with these weird and wonderful things where they're like,
0:05:11hmm, let's see if we can do that. And then they go away and they come back to me and
0:05:15they find a way to do it. So we have a, like, I'm really, really excited about this merchandise
0:05:20this year because I love the design in general, but I am very excited about tote bags and
0:05:26beach towels. Like that is just like a fantastic, like, isn't it great? You know, like maybe,
0:05:31maybe you're a person like t-shirts aren't for you. Well now you can buy a tote bag or
0:05:35a beach towel and you'll be happy. So go to upgradeyourwardrobe.com.
0:05:40I had told you that I got stopped somewhere. I was actually on a walk with my dog and somebody
0:05:47actually asked me where dongle town was. Interesting. And I said, okay, how am I going to respond
0:05:55here? And I said, I let him in on it. I said, it's kind of a joke about how, you know, if
0:06:01you buy a new computer, you have to plug in like an adapter, like a dongle in order to
0:06:05get it to work. And he was like, oh, and I said, it's a computer thing. And then I ran
0:06:09away. You should have just said it's in all of our minds and in the bottom of our backpacks.
0:06:16That's where dongle town is. It's everywhere. Dongle town is all around us. But being in
0:06:19California, people are like, oh, dongle town, California, where is that? And the answer
0:06:22is it's everywhere. Oh, I guess that's the problem being in California. Oh, uh, Myke,
0:06:29I was very confused that dongle town surf club didn't come in the tank top, like you
0:06:32said, but it turns out right at the very top of the, of the page, there's a little toggle
0:06:36for T or tank. So if you're a, if you want to show off the guns, I will not be buying
0:06:42the tank top, but there it is. It's available for you. I'm going to buy the tank top. I
0:06:47will probably never wear the tank top, but Adina is very excited about the tank top.
0:06:51Awesome. I am. I'm glad to have it. And for those who are wondering about more traditional
0:06:56upgrade merch of logos and hoodies and things like that, that's more of our fall collection.
0:07:01I would say this is our summer collection. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go with that. Oh, there
0:07:09are also some pins left. Some sort of, we have a small amount of logo pins left if you
0:07:12want to get those too. But, uh, upgrade your wardrobe.com. Get ready for the summer. It's
0:07:19only available for a couple of weeks. You don't want to miss out on these ones. Uh,
0:07:22so go get it. Um, follow up, no spoilers. We have both seen Avengers Endgame. We're
0:07:27not going to be talking about it on this show as we would usually do. There's going to be
0:07:30no mic in the movies about it because we're both going to be discussing it on the incomparable
0:07:33this week. So Jason has finally allowed me to be on the episode of the incomparable and
0:07:39I'm very excited. Yeah. We're going to talk about it on Saturday. So we get a week to
0:07:42think about it and then we'll talk about it on Saturday and I will, my plan is to talk
0:07:45about and release that episode next Saturday and then there's a second panel of the incomparable
0:07:50because everybody wanted to talk about it and that'll probably release Sunday. So it's a
0:07:53double feature, but you and I will be on that episode on a, on Saturday so people can keep
0:07:59their eyes on the incomparable. I wonder what the total runtime of those two episodes will
0:08:03look like compared to the total runtime of Endgame. Well, I mean, that's a good question.
0:08:09I think, I think if you put them both together, I think it would be great if you put those
0:08:13two episodes together, it was the runtime of Endgame. I fear it will be more than that.
0:08:17Yeah, I reckon it will be more than that too. I have a lot to say. I don't know if I'm going
0:08:21to be able to get the time to see it again though. That's the problem. I'm hoping to
0:08:26see it again this week because there's a, it's a, it's a three hour movie. There's a
0:08:30lot in there and I would love to see what I kind of missed the first time. I've, you
0:08:37know, podcasting about a movie you see once so much of what I do is a movie that I watched
0:08:40on video after seeing it in the theater or it's a TV show where I can watch it. It is
0:08:44a very different experience when you can only watch it once and you can't take notes, which
0:08:49is what happens when you see a movie in the theater. So I'm hoping to go back and see
0:08:52it sometime this week if I get a, if I get a chance. You know, I realized Marvel movies
0:08:57have occupied a third of my life. Oh yeah. Isn't that wild? That's true. Isn't that wild?
0:09:02Yeah. All right. So you can look out for that. Well, that's it. They're never making any
0:09:06more Marvel movies now. That was it. The end. That was what it meant. Yep. Spoilers. That
0:09:11was it. That's what we said at the end. Disney, yes. Disney stock went down on the revelation
0:09:15at the end of Avengers Endgame that Marvel comics is shutting down. Strange. It's a shame
0:09:20they made a billion dollars this weekend. They should probably keep going, but oh well.
0:09:23I found it really weird when Captain America looked directly into the camera and said,
0:09:28that's it for Marvel now. See you kids. That's it. Go home. Very strange. He took off his
0:09:31mask and he just dropped his shield and walked off and said, said, uh, later losers, no more
0:09:38superheroes. Go find your Batman. If you love him so much. It was really weird. Yeah. Well,
0:09:44I thought the moment where Captain America endorsed Batman was perhaps the strangest part
0:09:48of that. He's like, you know, Batman's pretty great. Go talk to Batman. Bye. Smell you later.
0:09:53Smell you later. He was out of there. Yep. It would have been a new catchphrase if only
0:09:56there was more Captain America movies, but unfortunately no more because there are no
0:10:00more Marvel movies. All right, let's do some upstream. Got a couple of headlines in streaming
0:10:05media. Uh, Comcast, believe it or not, as if it couldn't have been predicted is in talks
0:10:10to sell Hulu to Disney. Uh, according to CNBC sources, Comcast is currently weighing up
0:10:16its options over what to do with its 30% stake in the streaming service. One of those options
0:10:21is indeed to sell it to Disney and Comcast and Disney are talking about it. Uh, I mean,
0:10:27everybody knew this, right? Like this was not, this is not a revelation, but seeing
0:10:31it on CNBC makes it seem more real than just what we'd believe would happen. Yeah. The
0:10:36new piece of information here is that they are talking, uh, which is, I think that was
0:10:41unclear whether there was active conversations about the future of Hulu and the ownership
0:10:45of Hulu or whether they were just sort of like, everybody knew that this would be a
0:10:49thing that needed to happen, but they are talking. What the CNBC story says is that
0:10:55Comcast has not decided what it wants to do. And it, and they went into, you know, it's
0:11:00very much the arguments that we discussed maybe last week, which is the idea that, uh,
0:11:05they could keep their stake and be a part of something and sort of get a peek into Disney
0:11:10strategy, their competitor, but at the same time, they would also be involved with their
0:11:14competitor instead of doing their own thing. So I think it sounds like Comcast is also
0:11:19weighing sort of strategically and maybe the game here is also like basically what's it
0:11:23worth it to you? What's it worth it to us? What's it worth it to you? It's a complicated,
0:11:27uh, thing and it could go either way. I think the cleanest thing would be for Comcast to
0:11:31get some cash and walk away and use that cash to build their own streaming service rather
0:11:37than a kind of continuing to partner with Hulu. But what they did say, and I think this
0:11:41is an important point is Hulu has, you know, it's not just a place where you come for original
0:11:47streaming. It is the TV industry's, um, playback for broadcast TV in the U S and Comcast did
0:11:56say that they are happy with, you know, the fact that they put their shows on Hulu. I
0:12:00still have got to think that in the long run, um, they're going to want to put all of their
0:12:05shows, including NBC's network TV shows on their streaming service, um, because that
0:12:10then it's a direct customer relationship with their content. And I think it's actually a
0:12:14pretty great thing having bought CBS all access for star Trek. I have, uh, I have watched
0:12:23some CBS shows that I would not have thought to watch or would have forgotten to record
0:12:28on my DVR. But the way that service works, you get access to all their shows. The moment
0:12:33that they air, um, they're on, it's like HBO go the moment that the CBS shows air they're
0:12:38on streaming and I'm on the ad free tier. So it's basically all the CBS shows are available
0:12:44for me, ad free, no commercials by paying for this. And there's something it's actually,
0:12:49that's not bad. Like the combination of all the network shows, the w when I want to watch
0:12:53them and all their originals in one package, I look at CBS all access, which is very narrow.
0:12:59And I think this is a model like this is what Disney should take all of ABC and put it on
0:13:04Hulu. NBC universal should take all of NBC and put it on their new streaming service.
0:13:09That's like, that's how you should do it. That it actually makes a lot of sense. I think
0:13:12it really, uh, strengthens the service by basically saying we have a TV network, but
0:13:18you're streaming, so you're obviously not watching it. So you get these shows here instead.
0:13:22Like I don't see the problem with that. So, um, I have a hard time seeing them in the
0:13:26long run staying, but they're talking, it's good. And Warner media will be showing off
0:13:31their streaming service this fall. CEO Randall Stevenson has said that they will be giving
0:13:36a detailed look at the platform and its content in either September or October. Um, they on
0:13:41the line that HBO will be at the center of the platform. And this is a quote, the Disney
0:13:46announcement gave us nothing but more optimism about what we'll be able to bring to market.
0:13:51Um, that considering the quotes that surround all of this does not sound as snarky as you
0:13:57could imagine it sounding. Um, it actually was more of like a Disney have a really good
0:14:02offering kind of thing. And it looks like something that's exciting and we think we
0:14:07can do it too. Not so much of like, Oh, saw what they did. You want to see what we got?
0:14:12It was, I think it was more, and I think rightly so that Warner media should be encouraged
0:14:15by Disney. Um, and, and I think that Warner media really feel like they have something
0:14:22to offer and it's not necessarily what people think of them as having, right? Like I think
0:14:27with Disney, people are much more aware of what Disney owns and they are with Warner
0:14:32media. Um, you know, like I think that people just think of HBO as HBO and like game of
0:14:38thrones is owned by the HBO company, but it turns out it's also owned by the wizard company
0:14:43too. So like, you know,
0:14:44yeah, I think putting HBO at the center of the platform is a smart thing. I think that
0:14:48that was the, that that's, we'll see exactly what they mean by that, but like using HBO
0:14:52and kind of inflating it and saying, you know, HBO is going to be the start of this and maybe
0:14:56it's not all of it, but it's, it's the core and it's going to do more content. If you
0:15:00view like the Disney presentation where they've got their brand tiles of like Disney and Marvel
0:15:04and all that, like Warner media doing something like that, where they've got, they've got
0:15:08an HBO stream and they've got a DC superhero stream and they've got some other, you know,
0:15:12Harry Potter stream or whatever it is, however they want to put that together, you gotta
0:15:16take advantage of your brands and your intellectual property. And the most powerful part of the
0:15:21Warner media kind of content development, uh, world is HBO. HBO is at the center of
0:15:28it. So they are leaning into that, which is interesting. Of course, a lot of people have
0:15:32left HBO because it's not going to be the old HBO. It's going to be this new kind of,
0:15:36you know, higher volume content HBO, but, uh, it's still the center of their strategy
0:15:41and it should be.
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0:18:38So Jason, you wrote an article on Macworld last week where this quote comes from, which
0:18:45I enjoy very much. These past months I've noticed something strange creeping into my
0:18:49thoughts occasionally while I sit at my desk working on my iMac Pro. iOS does this better.
0:18:57Shock horror. Heresy. So what's going on here Jason Snell? You know, finder windows is where
0:19:06it all started. It started in the finder windows. I want you to know, I'll get into this a little
0:19:09later on, but you've infected my brain now with this technology. I heard from some of
0:19:18my friends who are long time Mac users who are like, "Mmm, what are you doing?" I can
0:19:22only imagine this upset quite a lot of people. But you know, and as I'm writing it I'm thinking,
0:19:26does this come across as one of those things where a columnist says something inflammatory
0:19:30just to get attention? And the answer is, I kind of don't want your attention. I'm just
0:19:35writing about this because it actually happened to me. It's literally, that is the story here.
0:19:40I am working in the finder and I've got windows open and some windows are behind other windows
0:19:45and then I realize that I've got eight of the same window open for the same folder,
0:19:49which I was going to put in to mention how the old finder wouldn't let you do that. And
0:19:52then John Siracusa sent me a note and said, "Something something spatial finder?" And I
0:19:57was like, "Yes, I almost went there." And I decided, "No, no, no, no, no. I'm not going
0:20:02to go back to the past." But I had that moment where I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to open this
0:20:05window and I'm going to go to this folder and I'm going to make a new finder window and
0:20:08I'm going to click on this thing in the sidebar and it's going to go to this other folder
0:20:11somewhere else and I'm going to move the files over and then I need to get this file out
0:20:14of the downloads folder and I'll open that and all that." And I thought, "This is kind
0:20:18of silly, isn't it?" Like, I get why I need to do that sometimes and I've got workflows
0:20:22that have built up over years in terms of this stuff. But I had that moment where I
0:20:26thought, like, on my iPad, I'm in an app, I'm in like OneWriter and I swipe from the
0:20:32left side and it shows me my little stories folder in Dropbox where all my stories are
0:20:36and I pick one or I press the plus button and it makes a new one in that folder and
0:20:39I give it a name. And on the Mac, it's sort of like, you know, some of this is also habit.
0:20:46Like I could go to BBEdit and press open and use default folder to set like the stories
0:20:52folder to be my default folder and set the window to be the right width and look the
0:20:55way I want and do the same thing. I could do that more or less, but the way I've been
0:21:01trained to use the Mac is go to the finder, open a window, navigate to the right folder
0:21:05and then create a document or open a document that's in there. And it was just a little
0:21:10moment where I thought why—I wanted to ask myself, because I write about this, I wanted
0:21:14to ask myself and talk about it, why do I feel this way? Let's explore this. And I was
0:21:23thinking, I think iOS is the reason. I think this is an example where I—without saying
0:21:29that I think iOS is initial extreme concept of files not existing, that was too much,
0:21:37too much. But I get the idea that maybe something we said earlier about old technology, right,
0:21:44and how Apple hopefully could come up with something better than Apple events, which
0:21:49they invented in 1991. I had that moment where I thought, ah, this is really a fundamental,
0:21:57brilliant concept from 1984. But, you know, I'm—now it's 2019 and I'm still opening
0:22:05finder windows and moving things around. And there are a lot of parts of my job where I
0:22:12feel like an app-based context makes more sense than a file-based context. And some
0:22:18of this is me and it's not the system, some of this is me. And Apple has definitely tried
0:22:21to push a lot of its apps to be more app-based and not finder-based in terms of how you use
0:22:27them. That's why Logic and Final Cut store things in packages and, you know, GarageBand
0:22:33does that too. And there's a lot going on there and iCloud Drive tries to push you in
0:22:37this direction. But I just—I don't know, I had that moment where I thought, oh, I prefer
0:22:44the fact that iOS kind of gives me the files that I want in the context of the app I'm
0:22:50using. And if I really need to go and dig around with files in the file system, I'll
0:22:56open the Files app or the Dropbox app or whatever. And it was just—it was a—it was an interesting
0:23:03kind of like moment of realization that I'm not—something happened where I do not take
0:23:13the conventions of the Mac for granted in the same way that I used to because I'm using
0:23:18iOS so much that it's changed the way I think about some of this stuff. Not saying like
0:23:22the Mac is bad and that iOS is good, it's way more nuanced than that, but saying that
0:23:27some of the assumptions I made about how I use my computer are changing.
0:23:33I am definitely in the mindset of preferring the app-centric model of files and how you
0:23:43manage your computer life. Because I think of my work as happening in places. There are
0:23:49apps and tools that I need when I'm in a certain mode. And I think more easily in that
0:23:55way than considering which document do I need to find in which folder structure to begin
0:24:01my work right now. I am much more of the idea of going here. And you mentioned that you
0:24:07reference OneWriter, which is where you write a lot of your stuff on iOS, right? You open
0:24:12that app and now you're in writing mode as opposed to like, "Let me go into Dropbox
0:24:19through six different nested folders to get the file that I need to open OneWriter with."
0:24:26And it's just like a different—and I don't think either of us is saying like one is right
0:24:30and one is wrong. It's just like a different way of thinking. But it's interesting to
0:24:36me that you have changed your thinking having used the Mac for longer than me. I did find
0:24:43this funny actually. Like Casey on ATP referred to me as a new Mac user.
0:24:49New Mac user, yeah. I've been using the Mac for nearly 15 years.
0:24:56Welcome.
0:24:57As long as him, right? Which is kind of funny. I think me and Casey—actually I've been
0:25:02using the Mac for longer than Casey because Casey's first Mac was the white MacBook.
0:25:08I had the Intel iMac. So I am a longer time Mac user than number one upgrade in Casey
0:25:15List. But I'm considered a new Mac user because I am not like deep into the terminal.
0:25:21Like I am just like a regular—
0:25:22You're of the new generation. You're one of these kids today.
0:25:25Yeah, who uses iOS.
0:25:28With their iPads and their iPhones.
0:25:29With their apps and like forgetting about their files.
0:25:31And their rock music and whatever.
0:25:33But I have an actual example of something that happened to me today after preparing
0:25:38for the show. I was on my Mac and I was working on a contract in Pages and I needed to sign
0:25:43the contract. So I've made it in Pages and I needed to sign it before I could send it.
0:25:49So I had to go into Pages. I exported it as a PDF, saved it to my desktop. Then I had
0:25:54to open a Finder window, go to the desktop, right click the file, open in, choose PDF
0:26:00pen, sign it, save it, open up my email app and send it. On iOS, I'm in Pages, I click
0:26:08share, I choose PDF. It then gives me an open in dialogue immediately. I just tap on PDF
0:26:14pen and then I sign it and save it. Like there's none of this middle dance of like, "Where
0:26:19do you want to save the file?" Right? Like there's none of that. Like it just goes from
0:26:22app to app and I really like that. And I know that sometimes on iOS, the share extension
0:26:29stuff can be clunky, but when it works, which for most of the stuff I do works great, like
0:26:34for that exact type of thing of like taking a document, turn it into a PDF, send it somewhere
0:26:39or whatever. That's way nicer to me because it's just going from app to app. Like the
0:26:44idea of me saving it to the desktop and then opening it again somewhere else is a completely
0:26:50unnecessary step for me to have performed the work that I wanted to perform.
0:26:53And there are issues here, although Apple has made some changes in iOS where now you
0:26:56can sort of like open a file directly in from an app and it opens it directly. It's not
0:27:01creating a, you know, another version of it.
0:27:03Yeah, which is great.
0:27:04Which is the way it always used to be.
0:27:05Yeah, that's really good.
0:27:06So you can work on the same file and move it around between apps. And that's the kind
0:27:10of thing that, you know, iOS is coming out of its extreme origin of no files and that's
0:27:16not, that doesn't work either. I was thinking about like Logic or Final Cut. Logic is a
0:27:22good example because I added a lot of podcasts in Logic and I also added podcasts in Fair
0:27:26ight on iOS where they have a package format, which I don't use probably because in part,
0:27:32it's part of my workflow, but part of it is also that I'm very file oriented because it's
0:27:35the Finder and it's a Mac and all of that. But like dragging the best way to put a bunch
0:27:41of files into a Logic project is to open the Logic project and then open the Finder and
0:27:46then drag the files in one by one to write where you want them to go. And Logic, as far
0:27:50as I can tell, doesn't even have a batch import feature. It has an import file feature that
0:27:56lets you pick a single file. So, and that's not better. So the Finder ends up being, and
0:28:04I think maybe this is the root of it is, interacting with lots of files in lots of complicated
0:28:08ways on the Mac. Most apps are just like, just use the Finder. Like don't involve me.
0:28:14Drag and drop works, drag the files in. I don't need to know about it. Whereas on the
0:28:20iPad, if I transfer files over and I'm in a project, Fairight will bring up a little
0:28:27side panel with all my files and I can drag them out one by one. And they're, you know,
0:28:32basically I airdrop those files to Fairight, not to a holding folder. So then they're in
0:28:37Fairight's storage area and then I'm dragging them into the project and then they're in
0:28:41the project. And I think that's better. I think that's a better approach. And I know
0:28:45it's different and what, you know, these platforms are colliding. So part of my thought here
0:28:52is just Apple is trying to push the Mac to be a little more app-centric in terms of documents.
0:28:57Apple is also trying to push iOS to be a little less app-centric. And I think that's good
0:29:02because I think there is a place that is more than what the Mac does today, but also more
0:29:07than what iOS does today. That is probably the better place for users because the, you
0:29:13know how you and I go back and forth about things like to-do lists and project management
0:29:18apps and all that kind of stuff where my big concern is always the danger of becoming—Merlin
0:29:24has talked about this a lot—it's the danger of becoming somebody who's a professional
0:29:27organized person who doesn't end up doing their job because they're spending too much
0:29:32time getting organized and not actually doing the work. And that's always my concern about
0:29:36putting any time into kind of like organizational stuff is this is time away from the work.
0:29:41I should just do the work. And you take that to an extreme and it's ridiculous too because
0:29:45you're completely disorganized and you can't do the work. So you have to find that medium.
0:29:49But anyway, this is a little bit like how I am thinking about like the argument about
0:29:53the Finder being the center of the Mac is you end up being like in the early days of
0:29:58the Mac custom folders, custom folder icons and colors and all this stuff was like a huge
0:30:03part of your identity as a Mac user was like the file system was your identity as a Mac
0:30:08user. And from a little bit of a remove I look at and I think it's kind of ridiculous,
0:30:14right? Like managing my files and folders, it's—I used to file my email in specific
0:30:20folders and now I just have an archive in Gmail and I search for it. Like I gave up
0:30:24the idea of creating these archives because it seemed like a waste of time. And I feel
0:30:30like maybe fiddly—when I talk to people about the Finder a lot of times it's sort
0:30:35of like, "Oh, but I need to put these files in these places and I do a lot of filing of
0:30:38my files and I put them into these places where I can get them later." And you know,
0:30:43sometimes if you're working on projects with co-workers and things like that, sometimes
0:30:46that is necessary.
0:30:47A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I wonder if a lot of the fiddling around with files
0:30:52in the Finder that Mac users do is just because it's the center of your world and not because
0:30:59you really need to be spending time fiddling around with files and folders. I think it's
0:31:04unnecessary.
0:31:05You know, the underpinnings of it, the stuff that goes into the file system on the Mac,
0:31:11by and large, unless you're using something like Dropbox, it's not collaborative. So the
0:31:16reason I mention this is we use Google Docs all the time, right? I have no idea how my
0:31:21Google Docs are filed because it's not important. Because the system is collaborative at its
0:31:27core. It's up to me where I find it. It's up to you where you find it. And we just deal
0:31:31with it that way. It's not about having this nested file system of show notes documents.
0:31:36Yeah, and it's very much like when I went from Eudora to Gmail and just said, "You
0:31:41know what? I don't need to create a complicated series of mail filters that put every message
0:31:45that I get in my history in a very particular mailbox for me to retrieve later." Because
0:31:51technology has reached the point where I can just say, "Hey, where's that email about this?"
0:31:55And it shows up. And I don't need to know any more than that. And it's a different way
0:32:00of doing it. And it's, you know, changing the way you work is hard because it incurs
0:32:05a cost. And it goes back to the idea of not wanting to waste my time doing things that
0:32:13aren't my work. Well, making a change in how you work is time spent that isn't your work.
0:32:18And I get that that's a hard thing to do. But in a moment like this where I've, you
0:32:23know, using iOS has changed my perspective a little bit, I look at it and I go, "Oh,
0:32:26wow, that's a lot of busy work just managing where things go." And yeah, my Google Drive
0:32:32is not particularly well organized. In fact, the only way that my Google Drive is organized
0:32:37is mostly about permissions because you can set like a folder to have specific share permissions
0:32:43in Google Drive. And then if you put a file in it, it inherits the folders permissions
0:32:47like that. But that's a function. That's like, "Oh, Dan and Steven can see the Six Colors
0:32:53Magazine folder." That's a different kind of thing that's not really organizing the
0:33:00files. And yeah, and I also know that some people are like, "What do you mean you're
0:33:03not organizing your files? You've got to organize your files." It's like, I get it, but I don't.
0:33:09Honestly, I need to organize them in very specific ways for projects and things, and
0:33:14that's it. And if Logic or Final Cut, which actually does do this, did all that work for
0:33:21me, then I would really not have to do it.
0:33:23I do want to just mention files, the Files app on iOS. It's not better than the Finder.
0:33:30No, it's not good.
0:33:31Let's not get this confused, right? Like when we're saying here that like managing files
0:33:35on iOS is better, it's like the difference in the kind of the ideological view of how
0:33:42you work, right? The Files app sucks.
0:33:44Right, right. No, if it's a shootout between Files and the Finder, like no, the Finder
0:33:48is a spectacularly powerful tool for moving files and folders around on your computer.
0:33:55And Files.app is a barely like a 2.0 kind of product that's got all sorts of quirks,
0:34:02and it's better than what was there before, which was nothing.
0:34:05Well, the iCloud Drive app.
0:34:07Well, the iCloud Drive app was the 1.0, right? And Files is the 2.0. But it's like, it's
0:34:12not, it's not great. And iOS's approach, I guess what I'm saying is iOS having this document-centric
0:34:21approach I think is smart if they can find lots of good ways to integrate the concept
0:34:28of files when necessary. Because there are times when you want to say, "I need this file
0:34:31from my archive. I need this file that I worked on. I want to make sure this file is backed
0:34:35up. I need to send this to somebody." There are things like that. That's why Files needs
0:34:38to be better. But I think coming from the approach iOS is coming from, I'm seeing the
0:34:45benefit of that in a way that is harder to see on the Mac due to a mixture of things,
0:34:51due to a mixture of assumptions based on like how the Mac has always behaved and my history
0:34:55as a user and how a lot of apps choose to interact with the file system on the Mac.
0:35:00Because on the Mac, you've got this great file utility that's at the very center of
0:35:04everything. And so you use that. If you're a Mac app, you use that. Now with Marzipan,
0:35:14what happens there? That's a whole other issue because those apps are all being designed
0:35:18to be app-centric and not document-centric. So you start with the app and then the documents
0:35:21kind of come along for the ride, which is the opposite of how the Mac... The classic
0:35:25way you worked on a productivity app on the Mac back in the day was that you found the
0:35:31document you were working on and double-clicked on it. And then it opened an app that opened
0:35:36the document. That's the exact opposite of how it works on iOS, right? You open the app
0:35:44and then find the documents that belong to that app. And there's something to be said
0:35:49for that in a lot of contexts, not all contexts. But anyway, that was my journey, Myke. I feel
0:35:55like I've stepped outside of my computer history just enough with using iOS in addition to
0:36:02macOS that it lets me see some of my habits and some of the assumptions of the Mac interface
0:36:09in a way that I hadn't before.
0:36:10Well, this is what lies before us over the next 12 to 18 months is thinking in these
0:36:16terms. It's very different now, right? Like we are moving, you know, whether happy or
0:36:22not into a kind of merged future. And it's going to require a lot of soul searching for
0:36:30users of Apple's products to kind of work out where they want to sit on this side of
0:36:37Marsapan. You know, like it's going to be interesting. I think it's interesting. We'll
0:36:46see how it ends up shaking out.
0:36:48Yeah, it's a lot of design decisions that Apple is going to have to make. And it's going
0:36:51to be weird. Like, as we said before, you said it two weeks ago, I think. It's going
0:36:56to be weird. Like, let's underline that. It is going to be weird. Even if Apple does a
0:37:00great job and executes this incredibly well, it's still going to be weird because you've
0:37:04got a whole class of apps that are not like the apps that have existed on the Mac. And
0:37:08they're going to have, you know, if, if, uh, Gee Rambo and Steve Tron Smith are to be believed,
0:37:13like it's going to be more like classic in some ways where like there's going to be a
0:37:17separate system folder with the Marsapan stuff in it like there is on Mojave. And that's
0:37:21not the system folder that the Mac apps use. It's the system folder that the Marsapan apps
0:37:25use. It's going to be weird even if they execute it well. And then we're going to go through
0:37:29this process, but it's also kind of fascinating to watch how it might evolve. Um, because
0:37:35I feel like the decision that Apple made when they kind of made their change about how they
0:37:40were viewing the Mac, um, was on one level a, be careful what you wish for from, for
0:37:46Mac users, because I think Apple pivoted from saying the Mac is a legacy platform that we
0:37:54want to keep around and keep the users on it happy, but it's not the future. It's just
0:37:59going to stay the way it is. And they pivoted from that to, all right, we're going to drag
0:38:04the Mac into the present. And this kind of stuff is how they're doing that. And if you're
0:38:08a long time Mac user, you will be uncomfortable. And I will be too, because I am one of you.
0:38:14I will also be uncomfortable because the Mac is going to have to change in ways and it's
0:38:18going to be weird. So that's the bottom line.
0:38:20It's going to be really strange to open some applications and be like, you don't look right.
0:38:25Like that's what it's going to feel like for a while. You know, like Steve Trout and Smith
0:38:30was, was tweeting over the weekend and he was kind of just like, I wouldn't say call
0:38:34to arms as such, but like, you know, like, Hey, if you are a developer and you think
0:38:40you are going to move into this, like, because he says like, I am, you know, I'm going to
0:38:44move all of my apps to Mars and Pan because it's what I want to do. Let me know. And I
0:38:47saw, we're going to talk about overcast in a bit, but I saw Marco Arment say like, my
0:38:51plan is day one. Like I want to have overcast on the Mac day one. It's going to look so
0:38:57strange, right? To like be on my iMac and click the overcast. It's going to look like,
0:39:04I reckon basically the same, I would assume my iPad app. And that's going to be very,
0:39:09very disorientating. So that's why it's going to be weird. That is, I think this is going
0:39:16to be, as we ramp up towards the summer of fun, we're in the weird time now. Yeah. Or
0:39:23is the fall the weird time when it ships? So it's summer of fun and then the autumn
0:39:26of weird. The autumn of weird. We'll find out. All right. Today's show is also brought
0:39:30to you by our friends over at Luna display, the makers of the hardware solution that turns
0:39:35your iPad into a wireless display for your Mac. Meaning you'll have a second display
0:39:39that is super portable with basically zero lag and stunning image quality. Setting up
0:39:44extra screens can be a fiddly and frustrating experience, but Luna display couldn't be easier.
0:39:50You just plug a lovely dongle, whether you're in town or you're at the beach, you know,
0:39:54doesn't matter. You just plug this dongle into your Mac and you're good to go. Everything
0:39:58works over wifi if you're in regular dongle town. But if you're at the dongle town surf
0:40:02club, you can do it with a USB connection if there's no wifi connection for you. How
0:40:06perfect is that? So you might be traveling, you can just use a cable instead and you still
0:40:10have the ability to use your Luna display to screens. You can have your laptop, you
0:40:15can have your desktop and your iPad to the side and you can use it just like an external
0:40:19monitor. It supports external keyboards, touch interactions in the Apple pencil. I will say
0:40:24you mentioned in your article about touchscreen Macs. Um, and it made me think of the fact
0:40:30that I think the Mac with an Apple pencil is fantastic because I do this all the time
0:40:36now. Like that is the easiest way and I'm using my Luna display to get all the touch
0:40:41interactions that I want, but it works perfectly. Like I really like being able to use like
0:40:48my Apple pencil in pixel mater on my Mac over Luna display, which I do quite a lot. The
0:40:53art, the, uh, the, the, the banner image that I made, like the kind of, of our merchandise
0:40:58is in our show notes and we tweeted it and stuff. I made that in pixel mater on my Mac,
0:41:03on my iPad with Luna display and my Apple pencil because pixel mate on the Mac is better
0:41:10than pixel mate or an iOS, which breaks my heart, but it just is. It's easier to use.
0:41:14But anyway, like you can do all of this stuff. I do all the time. Uh, they also recently
0:41:18Luna displays always having a bunch of updates to make the system better, including the new
0:41:21liquid video engine, which brings significantly reduced latency and faster screen refresh
0:41:26rate, which just makes it even better than ever before. Listeners at this show can get
0:41:30a exclusive 10% discount on Luna display. Just go to L U N A D I S P L A Y.com, Luna
0:41:37display.com. Use the promo code upgrade at checkout. That is Luna display.com promo code
0:41:43upgrade at checkout. Go there right now and upgrade your setup. You're going to love it.
0:41:48Our thanks to Luna display for their support of this show and all of relay FM. So we mentioned
0:41:54overcast a moment ago, uh, over the weekend, uh, Marco shocked the world and introduced
0:41:59a new feature to overcast. Um, about basically with the idea to share clips, to be able to
0:42:07have you listening to it, to an episode of one of your favorite shows on overcast and
0:42:10you're like, Oh, that was a good little clip. Previously, what you would do is you grabbed
0:42:14the URL, right? And you'd just tweet about it and be like, Oh, this is a really good
0:42:18episode, but there's no context there. There's nothing, there's no, cause it's so difficult
0:42:24to share this stuff. Or maybe you'd, you'd get a timestamp link in overcast and you tweet
0:42:28that, but not everybody uses overcast or any other app that might do this. Right. So like
0:42:33then you kind of locked in and you might, you might not click it because you use pocket
0:42:38costs. So like what uses this to you? You can't do anything with that. And it's a weird
0:42:41context where it's loading a webpage and then it has to load the whole file and wait until
0:42:45it gets to the, you know, where it can load. Your web browser has to load it to get to
0:42:49the time code and that if it's dynamic ad insertion, the time code may be, may have
0:42:53drifted and then you're not even sharing that moment that you want to share. So Marco has
0:42:57created some new UI inside of overcast where you can, if you listen to a show, you can
0:43:03press the share button and you can select a clip to create a clip and you can create
0:43:07a clip of up to one minute in length that can be audio only or video in horizontal,
0:43:13vertical or square formats. And it uses the show artwork and it has like some animation
0:43:17going on and you can choose, I love this, you can choose to add overcast branding and
0:43:23Apple podcast branding or no branding at all. That is a Marco move. I think if I've ever
0:43:30seen one that like he will just let you not put his branding in there. Right. We'll get
0:43:34into that a little bit more in a minute because I think it's actually pretty important when
0:43:38talking about this whole thing in general. This was all inspired by a thing that my Relay
0:43:44FM co founder Stephen Hackett said on an interview show that he was on called Unco. It's actually
0:43:50a really good interview, the whole thing kind of like Stephen's thoughts on podcasting,
0:43:53its history and all that kind of stuff. But Stephen was talking about the virality of
0:43:58podcasts that it's super hard to share clips that might give people a taste of the show
0:44:03that someone's talking about. People tend to just share links and texts and that kind
0:44:07of stuff. And as a podcast producer, it is such a pain to do this kind of stuff with
0:44:12the tools that currently exist. Right. Like I would open like Final Cut. Right. And drop
0:44:17everything in just for the sake of creating a 25 second clip that I could show on Instagram.
0:44:22Like it's too difficult. But this gives me as well as a producer of shows the ability
0:44:27to grab a clip that I would want to share as well as like and if you think like if it
0:44:32would be too much hassle for me to do this, no listener is ever going to do this. Right.
0:44:37Like you're not going to go to the effort of like creating a video project to share
0:44:42a 20 second clip of a show that you enjoyed. And I don't know about you, Jason, but I've
0:44:47been seeing these clips all over my timeline on Twitter this weekend. And I have loved
0:44:52it because I've seen people sharing stuff that they like. I've had listeners of my shows
0:44:57tagging me and clips that they've shared. And I've really enjoyed actually going back
0:45:01and listening to these like 20 second random things from like years ago. You know, like
0:45:05someone went back to the beginning of the pen addict when me and Brad talk about the
0:45:08fact that we don't like fountain pens that much. Like that is the kind of stuff that's
0:45:12like popping up. And like so I want to use this feature to promote my shows. Like I'm
0:45:17trying to get into that mindset a little bit more and I hope to see people sharing this
0:45:21stuff too. What did you think about this feature? I well first off it's funny because as a beta
0:45:27tester of Overcast, I think it's funny that he didn't beta test this feature. No, that's
0:45:31what I mean. He shocked the world. Nobody nobody knew about it except Steve himself.
0:45:36He didn't want to put it through the approval process for test flight. So he just did it
0:45:40himself. I think it's I think it's a great move. I think this is you know, I I think
0:45:48he's trying to keep it within fair use which is why it's a single like minute clip because
0:45:53he wants this to be a viral thing that promotes podcasts. I think he's run up against some
0:46:00challenges in in terms of how iOS sharing works where it's not as straightforward as
0:46:09it should be like you can share the video but it doesn't come with a link to the podcast
0:46:13because it's just a video. Yeah, and so then you need to like copy the Overcast link and
0:46:20then copy I kind of want him and I know he probably can't do this. But what I really
0:46:25want is like a video share that also puts something on the clipboard that's like the
0:46:30name of the episode and a link to the podcast or something like that something a little
0:46:34richer than what is currently there, but I know that there are a lot of complexities
0:46:39in that situation but at the bottom of this, you know, he's trying to solve a problem that
0:46:44we've all been moaning about for a long time, which is it's very hard to share to really
0:46:49share a great moment in a podcast and have it, you know, have it kind of go viral instead
0:46:55I see these links all the time where people are like, oh, this was a really great moment
0:47:00about this thing. So you should listen to my podcast. It's like, okay, I am now going
0:47:04to download an entire episode of your podcast. That's a harder sell not sight unseen but
0:47:10like here on heard. Yeah here on heard exactly right. So instead I get to listen to a clip
0:47:15up to a minute and think oh, that's really interesting or funny or whatever and maybe
0:47:21I'll go listen to it. But also it allows fans listeners of podcast to share favorite moments
0:47:27and that's also a lot of fun. So I hope it I hope it takes off and I hope more podcast
0:47:32apps do it. Yes. This is what I wanted to talk about right the idea of this how these
0:47:36tools are for podcasting in general because there are a lot of like proprietary systems
0:47:43like platforms and stuff like that that will that can generate these things for you, but
0:47:47you have to work with them. You have a host of them. I have an arrangement with them like
0:47:50you'd be a part of this like big huge CMS network thing and that's not tenable for most
0:47:57people right like it's requiring way too much and I think that this stuff is really useful
0:48:09when it is available to everybody right like I hope the other third party apps find a way
0:48:15to make features like this for themselves. Like I am obviously a huge fan of overcast
0:48:19and Marco was one of my closest friends. So I want him to get more customers because of
0:48:22this right so I'm happy he did it first for that reason, but I also hope now that the
0:48:28success of this feature will prompt other app makers to do it too because then it's
0:48:32good for everyone and like this goes back to kind of what I was saying about like the
0:48:36branding thing the fact that Marco will allow you to put branding in or not is that I feel
0:48:42like that whilst he is very happy to have it out first would also encourage other people
0:48:48to do this because it is good for the overall podcasting ecosystem that we all seem to care
0:48:55so strongly about like and it was like a quote from Marco's kind of announcement posted this
0:49:01that I wanted to read where he said for podcasting to remain open and free we must not leave
0:49:05major shortcomings for proprietary lockdown services to exploit conversely the more we
0:49:09strengthen the open podcast ecosystem with content functionality and ease of use the
0:49:14larger the barrier becomes that any walled garden must overcome to be compelling and
0:49:18like I you know this is why like I am happy that an app that is as popular as overcast
0:49:28is run by someone whose podcast politics align with my own because you know it makes me happy
0:49:41that someone like Marco is I mean this is very we're inside baseball right now but this
0:49:46is like coming in from a weekend of this this this startup called luminary which is like
0:49:52a closed platform system that is that really upset a lot of podcasters because they said
0:49:59podcast didn't need ads and they are a system where it is a regular app but it also has
0:50:06this paid tier so it's a free app where you can listen to in theory can listen to any
0:50:11podcast then as a paid tier where they have a bunch of stuff which is exclusive for them
0:50:16and they will kind of when they first came onto the scene their whole PR was about like
0:50:19oh we're better because our shows don't have ads and podcasts don't need ads and they just
0:50:23need our system instead and then there's been this whole furor over the weekend of just
0:50:28a million basically a million different things that luminary has done wrong throughout their
0:50:32launch and the way that they're communicating and so after something like this to see a
0:50:37tool like this and you know for it coming from Marco is like I consider it a good thing
0:50:43I personally am not worried at all about the future of our business here I have seen and
0:50:54maybe being naive but I've been doing this only 10 years and I've seen a million things
0:50:59come and go that are going to destroy podcasting especially over the last few years and I have
0:51:07seen every single one of these make absolutely no dent in anything maybe at some point it's
0:51:14going to happen but I don't think that we are any closer to the heat death of podcasting
0:51:19now than we were five years ago like I just don't think that it is significantly closer
0:51:24like the part of the industry that we're in is still growing you know like I don't really
0:51:33know how much people want to hear about this sort of stuff but like advertising revenue
0:51:37is going up and if you're in the right places at the right times and you're doing the right
0:51:41things like this business can still be an extremely viable one if you do it in the right
0:51:48ways I feel like the right model here is to look at the web and say what's great about
0:51:55the web is that the web browsers are just part of the landscape of your device everybody's
0:52:00got web browsers and the web browsers all look all work on the web and if you want to
0:52:04give away things on the web and have advertising you can do that and if you want to charge
0:52:08for content on the web you can do that and that the way forward for podcasting is probably
0:52:15a system and we kind of already have it but it could be better but it's probably just
0:52:20embracing open podcast standards along with a an easy for users way to say I have paid
0:52:29for this like you do in the web so authentication and you some podcast apps support authentication
0:52:37now where you can put in a username and a password and get to a password protected feed
0:52:41or a user and password protected feed that is what open podcasting is kind of lacking
0:52:46right now is a unified way of doing that where if you try to subscribe to this podcast a
0:52:53put in your username and password prompt comes up and then you do that and every podcast
0:52:57app supports it.
0:52:58Right this you're saying like if if what you want to do is have some method of podcasting
0:53:04which is paid.
0:53:06Right because one of the ways that the one of the reasons this is happening is because
0:53:09if you want to charge the and build a fairly simple experience for people who want to pay
0:53:15to listen to a podcast or a network of podcasts you have to build your own app basically because
0:53:21it gets it's ugly it's like asking people to subscribe to a raw RSS feed URL like it
0:53:26gets complicated and it's not supported the same way everywhere and that is what open
0:53:31podcasting is missing that the web allows you to do because the web will let you a web
0:53:36browser will let you log in and it'll let you take a cookie that says you are logged
0:53:39in and then you get access to the premium content, you know, whatever it is the Wall
0:53:43Street Journal New York Times the Financial Times you name it and podcasts that part is
0:53:49hard right now because it didn't really get built that way and I feel like the best thing
0:53:54that the open podcast community could do is try to find a way forward that lets open podcast
0:54:01apps deal with subscriber content because right now you've got this weird place where
0:54:09there are podcasts like luminary that are trying to podcast apps that are trying to
0:54:12mix both they're trying to say well we're a podcast app plus our podcasts are in here
0:54:16and that what they're trying to do is remove this barrier which is I need to switch to
0:54:23a different app in order to listen to these certain kinds of podcasts that are not available
0:54:28elsewhere and that and then my all my other podcasts are over here and that kind of stinks
0:54:33and like audible has done that with their channels stuff and I you know I had access
0:54:40to that and I basically never listened to it because it's in a different app and I don't
0:54:43want to listen to my podcast in a different app that is like you know it's okay if you
0:54:50want to have a separate app like audible to do audiobooks right like a separate app but
0:54:54where luminary is kind of in the middle here is this they want to have it both ways they
0:54:58want to they want to be part of the open podcast environment that people like and sell you
0:55:03stuff and because they can't do that inside other apps they have to do it in their app
0:55:07and and and I do see that as another weakness of the podcast world like I I have for because
0:55:14I have podcasts that are behind a membership you know and you do too for a relay right
0:55:19so there we both have have this and you know it's kind of security through obscurity it's
0:55:26kind of porous it's not the best and like I could I would love it if there was an easy
0:55:31way for me to just say put in your six colors or incomparable username and password and
0:55:36then you get access to these podcasts on every podcast player on every platform but it doesn't
0:55:42exist so I you know that that to me is a hole that I would love to see plugged somehow maybe
0:55:48somebody should pull VC money into that idea well actually you know what would be really
0:55:53interesting is if Apple did it did it if Apple came up with a system where Apple said from
0:55:58now on the podcast app will accept this method of authentication and only this method and
0:56:04we will show your authenticated podcast in the iTunes directory but mark that they're
0:56:08paid only and allow previews and like if Apple built that feature out and it wasn't just
0:56:15for Apple's player key point they could move the entire market to do it I feel like probably
0:56:22the company close enough right now is patreon well patreon right patreon has that idea that
0:56:30you're logging in and you get a URL URL it's still complicated but they could provide an
0:56:35API right you know well I mean well so so wouldn't that I think it starts that would
0:56:40be great it would I think Apple doing it would be the one that would push had the highest
0:56:45chance but you're right patreon could could help matters too I just like Apple would be
0:56:49less likely to make it open to everyone then patreon well that's I feel I feel that's the
0:56:54problem is that is is that Apple wouldn't be as inclined to do that but I don't know
0:56:59I mean Apple so far has not really exerted their authority in this space maybe they would
0:57:02just make it really easy for you to pay for those things with Apple pay do it that way
0:57:07but I don't know that is a challenge but this you know this is a whole about the lack of
0:57:12virality in podcast content that Marco is trying to fill and I think it's great I mean
0:57:18how many times have I had a moment where I am drawn I'm driven to tears by wacky things
0:57:23happening on the flophouse and I just can't I just can't share it like I can't share when
0:57:31Stewart doesn't understand the key for Sutherland is in trapped inside the mirror at the end
0:57:35of mirrors wait what come on right it's so funny what and I can't I can't share that
0:57:41I can't what come on he's in a mirror like it's so funny and it's like I can't I just
0:57:48can't so this gives it gives me an ability to do that that's great I hope people use
0:57:52this I really really want people to use it and I'm so pleased that Marco made it I think
0:57:57it's I think it's really awesome and I'm very pleased to see stuff like this exist and I
0:58:03hope that more people do this I hope to see you know my hope would be like that this feature
0:58:10does so well that Marco puts even more effort onto stuff like this right and and there is
0:58:16a business benefit for him like a legit business benefit like it is making his app better as
0:58:21well which is awesome but at the same time I think is helping something that I care a
0:58:26lot about so it's definitely worth checking out and trying out if you are an overcast
0:58:31user or you're not maybe you can find your favorite moments of upgrade maybe you want
0:58:36to make a Twitter account which just shares our crazy conspiracy theories that we love
0:58:40around here whatever you want but like I would say if you do ever share any clip of my show
0:58:47please tag me in it because I like to hear what people enjoy because we get so little
0:58:53feedback especially detailed feedback about like this was really funny right that you're
0:58:57an audience that might laugh or scowl or whatever to what we say unless we're live you know
0:59:03in the theater in Chicago or at WWDC or whatever like we don't get that feedback about like
0:59:09I really like this bit it's very hard to express that because you listen to the whole podcast
0:59:13you think oh wow Myke says something super smart there which makes a change I think he
0:59:18should know he should know then yeah let me know but yeah so that's worth checking out
0:59:23there's of course links in the show notes for you to check those stuff out show notes
0:59:28are important to podcasting too in oh they are opinion not everybody agrees with links
0:59:33with links today show is brought to you by hello hello make insanely comfortable buckwheat
0:59:38pillows I don't know if you've ever tried a buckwheat pillow but it is pretty different
0:59:42to your regular fluffy pillows buckwheat pillows support your head and neck so much better
0:59:46because they don't collapse under the weight of your big brain like traditional pillows
0:59:51well hollow pillows stay cool and dry compared to feather or foam pillows they breathe better
0:59:57so you don't need to find the cool side of the pillow because the whole pillow is cool
1:00:00because air can flow through it you can also add or remove filling very easily to suit
1:00:06your needs so it can be just the right thickness that you want buckwheat pillows are super
1:00:10popular in Japan they are on the I've never come across a pillow menu at a fancy hotel
1:00:16before but the people at hello tell me that they exist and if you do come across a pillow
1:00:21menu you may find buckwheat pillows on there and I bet it is a very tippy top of that menu
1:00:26because I love my hollow pillow I have been sleeping on it for nearly a year now I got
1:00:32it last June I'm never going back like I absolutely love the support that I get from this pillow
1:00:40like it's so comfortable for me hollow pillows are made in the USA with quality construction
1:00:45of materials they're certified organic cotton case is cut and sewn for durability and the
1:00:49buckwheat is grown and milled in the US as well you may be curious to try one of these
1:00:53out and you can because you can sleep on it for 60 nights and if hollow isn't right for
1:00:58you you can just send it back for a refund go to hollow pillow.com slash upgrade right
1:01:03now and you can get your own buckwheat pillow there's h-u-l-l-o-p-i-l-l-o-w.com slash upgrade
1:01:10and if you buy more than one they have a special discount of up to $20 off depending on the
1:01:14size you opt for they have fast free shipping of every order and 1% of all profits are donated
1:01:19to the nature conservancy give it a try if you love it you keep it if you don't just
1:01:23send it back hollow pillow.com h-u-l-l-o-p-i-l-o-w.com slash upgrade our thanks to hollow for their
1:01:28support of this show and relay FM I wished sometimes that our company was called relay
1:01:35fmo because then I could say that whole thing and it would rhyme because it's thank you
1:01:41to hollow for their support of this show and then relay fml o you know but that that's
1:01:47not we did we unfortunately we didn't make that decision nearly five years ago so I'm
1:01:53stuck all right let's do some hashtag ask upgrade yeah this really needed the lasers
1:02:00today because the first question is about lasers and I knew that you were not going
1:02:05to give me them unless I was quiet for a long time so here we are Andrew asks does Jason
1:02:11make pistol fingers or stabby pointing hands while doing lasers no no first off fingers
1:02:19don't shoot lasers okay okay they don't that's silly that's ridiculous I I just lean I lean
1:02:25into the microphone and then the lasers emerge you lean in I do for lasers I get in as close
1:02:34as I can to the microphone I'm actually touching the microphone with my face to get the full
1:02:40laser experience oh wow yeah can you give me a laser from from regular distance oh that
1:02:48sucks I don't want that right if those are garbage lasers nobody wants those lasers I
1:02:53want I want lasers this is if people are gonna make clips of this is this what is this what
1:02:59they're gonna make take it all back Jeff wants to know do you know of any podcast apps that
1:03:06support re-listening to old shows I'm thinking of something where I can tell it to start
1:03:10with this episode and then download a new episode every X days so you kind of listening
1:03:15in a time machine so I call this the Syracuse a feature because John always tells us you
1:03:22start at the beginning I don't even know if it needs to download an episode every X days
1:03:25I think I think what you really need is an inversion of the standard podcast procedure
1:03:30which is start at the beginning and keep three episodes or whatever download this many episodes
1:03:35when I'm done I just want the new one to pop up that's yeah so what I what I want is I
1:03:41want to say you know keep three episodes and start at the beginning and so it'll download
1:03:45the first three episodes and when I finish episode one it will download episode four
1:03:49yeah and the key part here this is not a sorting option this is the I like because you can
1:03:54a lot of apps have sorting options right where you can like right reorder them this is the
1:03:59idea that like it would show up in your all unfinished playlist or whatever or your like
1:04:04all unplayed playlist or whatever function of your app which shows like a chronological
1:04:09list of all the stuff you have to listen to right like it's a new episode but it's actually
1:04:13not and I agree I think this I think stuff like this should be great I don't know about
1:04:19any apps that do this I have lobbied Marco for this feat for the Syracuse a feature in
1:04:24overcast pretty hard because there are podcasts I listen to now that I am way behind and I
1:04:31want to go through them sequentially from the from the point you know from the start
1:04:35or from the point where I am now and I want to have that behavior where when I'm done
1:04:39with this one I listen to the next one but because it's a podcast that's that's currently
1:04:45like 50 episodes ahead that is more work than I'd like I'd really like to say you know I
1:04:50want to start season two of hello from the magic tavern now and then just keep giving
1:04:56me new episodes and you could do you could do it keep giving me a new episode every week
1:05:01I tend to listen to a lot of shows in bit like that in binges so I'd like to be able
1:05:06to say you know keep three or five or whatever at any one time and then as I as I've finished
1:05:11the last one put the next one in the download queue or in the playlist or in the streaming
1:05:16queue because I'm gonna keep on moving forward I think I think this is fitting with our theme
1:05:21this is another way that podcast apps can make things easier for users where you can
1:05:25do this now but it's more work and it shouldn't need to be some podcasts there's even a tag
1:05:30in iTunes Apple made a tag that is basically start from the start instead of show me the
1:05:36latest things that are not timely Apple made a lot of tags last year a couple of years
1:05:41ago nobody's using unfortunately they're very hard to implement visually but that's an interesting
1:05:48idea where like that could be a cue for somebody for an app developer to be like oh I'm gonna
1:05:52offer for this podcast I'm gonna offer the start at the beginning option because the
1:05:57podcast maker marked this as a start at the beginning so like total party kill is like
1:06:00that the D&D podcast that I do it it's a start at the beginning podcast and you can draw
1:06:06you can jump in anywhere but it is a series of linear stories with different groups but
1:06:10they all start at the start and go forward through right and seasons yeah yeah for the
1:06:15no podcast apps other than apples that support you using all I like you're using all of the
1:06:19features I got all the nobody nobody's all in there them because even apples implementation
1:06:24some of this stuff leaves a lot to be desired yeah I agree and I think that's why no other
1:06:28apps have implemented them because the creator of this new part of the RSS standard has yet
1:06:35to implement it in a way that visually makes a lot of sense that that is pleasing I you
1:06:40know I wish that they that some of that rich data would get better used but I understand
1:06:44also that most people don't use it and so there's no point in it but this is an example
1:06:47where it might actually be helpful to say you know oh I can tell at least on some podcast
1:06:53that this is a start at the start and even offer this as a feature but it regardless
1:06:57it should be easier for users who want to start at the start of something if I'm listening
1:07:00to hello from the magic tavern I tell somebody because let me tell you now it's great it's
1:07:05an improvised fantasy podcast about a human from earth who lands on a fantasy world and
1:07:10he and a wizard and a shape-shifting badger person do a podcast every week and it's entirely
1:07:16improvised and it's hilarious but part of the hilarity is that they every time they
1:07:20make something up it's part of the cannon and they can't contradict it later and so
1:07:24you really need to start at the start you can do that you can subscribe to hello from
1:07:29the magic tavern and make the effort to tap in the right places and play the first episode
1:07:34it would be a lot nicer if the default was not here's the latest episode of hello from
1:07:39the magic tavern because you don't want to hear it you want to hear episode one and then
1:07:45if you like it episode two that's how it should be consumed my my one of these is the adventure
1:07:52zone yeah that's a great I mean the dnd podcast so the the adventure zone dragon friends are
1:07:57both both those podcasts or podcasts I'm listening to from way back in the catalog and I would
1:08:02actually listen to them more often if I didn't have to go and say oh where am I in the adventure
1:08:07zone like oh I downloaded three episodes I must be there now it's like I would rather
1:08:13just subscribe to it right like uh like jeff suggests here I will say I would like to to
1:08:18claim immunity from this uh request I put this question in before we uh spoke about
1:08:25Marco adding features to his app so you know sorry Marco because we're clearly directing
1:08:32this at you now I think at least I am because it's the app that I use and I want that feature
1:08:38uh Kevin Kevin has a question do you think that if a developer uses marzipan apis in
1:08:43an app they will be required to distribute it via the mac app store 100% kevin 100% this
1:08:50is probably a bigger discussion for a later episode as again we either get closer to or
1:08:57away from wwdc but why did apple all of a sudden decide to redo the mac app store yeah
1:09:06I think eventually you're going to be able to buy either for a discount or whatever you're
1:09:10going to just be able to buy all of the um all of the apps for all the platforms at once
1:09:15right instead of right now you're going to have to buy the mac app separately from the
1:09:18ios app yeah I think in the long run that's probably not going to be the case that they'll
1:09:22get bundled together or at least developers will have the option to bundle the app across
1:09:26platforms together maybe for a special price who knows and then we'll stop calling it the
1:09:30mac app store yeah it'll just be the app store I think there's I wouldn't say it's 100 I'd
1:09:35say it's like 95% because it's possible with all these new things that they're adding um
1:09:41where they're you know they're notarizing apps and things like that yeah there might
1:09:44be a few things you can do it's possible that that they'll let marzipan apps in as notarized
1:09:52apps and have it be mandatory so you still have to pass through apple's process before
1:09:56being released but I think it's also entirely possible that it'll be 100% mac app store
1:10:02uh my kind of where I think the line will be drawn if like from a user interface perspective
1:10:07like if you're using UIKit you'll be in the mac app store but if like you know we were
1:10:11talking about the idea of maybe integrating with shortcuts like if those are separate
1:10:15APIs you can probably still be out of the app store and use those that's how I kind
1:10:18of think of it in my brain if your app's going to look like an ios app it's going through
1:10:22the app store that's how I that's where I kind of like draw that limit in my brain um
1:10:28jack says you're very skilled in the art of speaking on a podcast did that come just from
1:10:33experience prove that this week I don't know oh did you actually do something conscious
1:10:37to learn these skills I don't mean recording I mean speaking and presenting voice modulation
1:10:41pacing articulation um jack did not direct this question specifically at either of us
1:10:49so I'm going to assume jack likes the way that we both speak okay great and I think
1:10:55the answer for this is the same for both of us where it's purely a case of practicing
1:11:01and paying attention to the things that annoy people more frequently because they can't
1:11:07get out of your brain and then you end up kind of changing a lot of the way that you
1:11:11speak if you're Myke Hurley you lost a lot of your accent is what happened is you became
1:11:18more like an American person it's I think there's multiple things going on here I think
1:11:22some of it is just who you are and how you speak and that is your starting point like
1:11:27I I gave my elementary school graduation speech I was in radio in high school humblebrag I
1:11:37gave a I gave a speech at my high school graduation I you know I I have done I I got a bunch of
1:11:45medals at the speech festival when I was in eighth grade I had the key to the sea because
1:11:54of a great speech that I gave once I'm Batman no I you know so I I've been doing this a
1:12:02long time of like public speaking public also part of his personality which is public speaking
1:12:06has never bothered me like some people say it's the worst thing that you could possibly
1:12:11do there's death and then like one up on the list of terrible things is public speaking
1:12:15I've never felt that way I am awkward in lots of social situations but in front of a crowd
1:12:21on a stage is not one of them so I I've got that going for me and then what Myke said
1:12:25which is then you do this for years and every now and then I get an email from somebody
1:12:30who says I just listened to upgrade number one or I just listened to the incomparable
1:12:33number one and wow that you are much better now than you were back then it's like thanks
1:12:38I guess like you're insulting my past to compliment my present how do you get to do a live show
1:12:43at Carnegie Hall Jason ten thousand hours of practice and I mean it's not an accident
1:12:50you just wander on the stage that's well and that was going to be my point is one of the
1:12:54reasons that I don't feel bad about somebody saying I listen to incomparable number one
1:12:58from August 2010 and wow your podcast is much better now is because it it should be right
1:13:04yeah like you would I hope so I would really not be happy if I did something for nine years
1:13:11and didn't get better at it like that is not not just like the technology and I'm using
1:13:16a better microphone I'm better at microphone technique and I'm better at editing podcasts
1:13:19and all that but I should be better as a host I should be better at speaking like you should
1:13:23keep getting better at whatever you do as you go so part of it is that is you just got
1:13:27to get started and and get better as you go and that's true for everybody so don't don't
1:13:33say you know don't say oh I can't do a podcast because I'm not as polished as all the podcasts
1:13:38that I've been listening to for many years like you got to start somewhere yeah and you'll
1:13:41never go down that road if you never get started if you feel that way because like you're like
1:13:45oh I love this show and I'd never be as good as them just go back to the earliest recording
1:13:50you can find of that person and you will immediately feel better about yourself Myke has done a
1:13:54really good job of hiding a lot of his old podcasts don't even exist on the internet
1:14:00anymore because hello governor go all the way back though to 2012 with the episode one
1:14:07of the pan addict yeah and you can listen to this guy who's talking like this and he's
1:14:12so happy to be on a podcast he's a soccer hooligan he is who loves pens he'll stab you
1:14:18with his pen he will anger him and finally Jay Lilly asks I'm getting a MacBook Air for
1:14:24my wife to use during her master's program should I get eight gigabytes of RAM or 16
1:14:28gigabytes of RAM always more RAM right as much RAM as you can afford I don't know it
1:14:34depends on what his wife is doing with her master's degree if she's doing basic stuff
1:14:38like I'm I I think that RAM gets oversold especially in this era of SSDs and 8 gigs
1:14:44of RAM as a standard is actually pretty great so unless she's doing stuff like she's got
1:14:48lots and lots of apps open at once and things like that I think I think the best buy on
1:14:53laptops right now is to watch for one of these sales on Amazon or elsewhere where the MacBook
1:14:59Air base model gets sent sold for $9.99 I think that's at the right price and it's a
1:15:04great deal if you can get one and I've gotten to that way so I feel like that's the best
1:15:08thing to do is just get the base model because for most uses it's gonna be fine like unless
1:15:14unless she's getting her master's in like 3d graphics or computer science or engineering
1:15:20or something like that in which case she's got some very specific technical needs but
1:15:23if it's not something that specific I think I wouldn't worry about it quite honestly I
1:15:29would go with the base model because I think the base model is pretty good and honestly
1:15:32I probably spend money on disk before it's been on RAM because the base disk on the MacBook
1:15:37Air is very very small.
1:15:40If you would like to send in a question for a future episode of the show just send in
1:15:44a tweet with the hashtag #AskUpgrade and it may be considered for a later episode and
1:15:48if you want to be if you want to own the coolest podcast merch of the summer you need to go
1:15:55to upgradeyourwardrobe.com and you can get that wherever you want to be super cool in
1:16:01San Jose or you just want to think about USB when you're at the beach you can do that with
1:16:07the dongletown surf club merch at upgradeyourwardrobe.com available until just May 13th so do not delay
1:16:16on this one go buy it now now now.
1:16:19Thanks so much to our sponsors this week the fine people over at Luna Display, Holo and
1:16:25ButcherBox.
1:16:27If you want to find Jason online sixcolors.com the incomparable.com and he is @JSNEL J S N
1:16:32E double L I am @imike I M Y K E and I and Jason both host many shows here at relay FM
1:16:38go to relay.fm/shows and you may find something new.
1:16:42We'll be back next week until then say goodbye Jason Snell.
1:16:46Pew pew pew.
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