243: Fiddling Around With Folders


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade Episode 243, brought to you by Hello, Luna Display and

00:00:15   Butchobox. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi Jason Snell.

00:00:19   Hi Myke Hurley, how are you? I am very well fine and dandy indeed and I have a hashtag

00:00:24   SnellTalkQuestion from number one Upgrading Casey who wants to know if you could watch

00:00:30   a movie or series for the first time all over again, what would it be?

00:00:35   Hmm, that's a good question from number one fan Casey. I think I'm gonna say Lost.

00:00:42   And I know that's controversial because a lot of people don't like how Lost ended, but

00:00:45   you know I loved Lost. I loved the whole thing. If you didn't like how it ended, wouldn't

00:00:49   that make it the perfect show to watch this way? So like if you ever did watch it again,

00:00:53   you wouldn't remember how badly it ended? I also feel like one of the big problems with

00:00:56   Lost at the time, because Lost was a very modern show, a little bit, it was a little

00:01:00   bit before its time, and because it was network TV, there were long gaps between episodes.

00:01:07   So you get like eight episodes and then they'd be off for six weeks and then you get four

00:01:11   episodes and then it would be off for five weeks. And I would love to watch that show

00:01:16   for the first time being able to basically binge it or at least you know watch it at

00:01:21   my own pace over the course of a few weeks instead of having to stretch it out over years

00:01:25   with huge gaps in between seasons. Because I think the show plays a lot better when you're

00:01:32   not losing narrative momentum every six episodes as they stop for a rerun break. So I have

00:01:39   been meaning to do a Lost rewatch and I will at some point, but in the meantime I think

00:01:44   that's gonna be my answer. It's not my favorite show, although it probably is in my top five

00:01:48   of all time, but I think it would be the one that would benefit the most. And for movies

00:01:53   I don't think I have an answer for movies. There are a lot of movies that I love, I'm

00:01:57   not sure there's a movie that I would want to... I feel like the going for the ride for

00:02:02   a TV show where you don't know where it's going is just more fulfilling over the long

00:02:06   haul than a single movie.

00:02:07   I think that for this question TV shows are better than movies, unless it's like a movie

00:02:12   series right? Like if you wanted to watch Star Wars you know.

00:02:17   Yeah or all the Marvel movies, something like that.

00:02:19   Yeah, that would take a long time to watch all the Marvel movies. People do that though,

00:02:24   do you see that? Like I saw people doing that, they do like a three or four day basically

00:02:29   live in the cinema. I couldn't imagine watching movies that way. You could lose your mind.

00:02:34   Yes.

00:02:35   Thank you to Number One Upgrading Casey for sending in this Snell Talk question. If you

00:02:39   want to have a question to help open a future episode of Upgrade just send out a tweet with

00:02:44   the hashtag SnellTalk and it may be considered for future use.

00:02:49   We have very exciting news, we have merchandise available for you right now.

00:02:55   Right now.

00:02:56   Upgradeyourwardrobe.com, that is upgradeyourwardrobe.com, there's also links in our show notes. Look

00:03:02   the Summer of Fun is approaching, right? We can hear the waves crashing, we know it's

00:03:06   on the way and we thought to ourselves, you know, we want to make sure that the Upgradients

00:03:12   are ready for the summer, people are headed to the beach. Luckily for all of us, you don't

00:03:17   have to leave Dongletown behind because now you can join the Dongletown Surf Club. We

00:03:23   have a whole range of items available including a Dongletown Surf Club tea and tank top so

00:03:29   you're ready for the beach, a Dongletown Surf Club tote bag and quite possibly, in my opinion,

00:03:35   the greatest podcast merchandise ever created, the Dongletown. Yes, we've made a beach towel.

00:03:42   It says Dongletown Surf Club on it. It's true. It's true. Also the classic Dongletown

00:03:48   t-shirt is back in stock in the Navy variation and this is our pre-WWDC get ready for the

00:03:56   Summer of Fun Ensemble.

00:03:59   We're doing it now because we want to make sure that like, so basically you can buy it

00:04:02   now. It's available till May 13th. It should arrive before WWDC if you're in the US. That's

00:04:07   why we're doing it right now. That's why ATP are doing theirs right now also. So if you

00:04:12   haven't yet bought ATP merch, why don't you buy it all together and just pay once for

00:04:16   shipping? We, I will say, I love, we had such great response to the original Dongletown

00:04:24   tea. This is my favorite of the two design-wise. I think this is perfect. This has a couple

00:04:31   of excellent puns on it. I would say read all the text out loud. That would be my tip

00:04:37   to you. Just read it all out loud because you might notice something you wouldn't have

00:04:41   noticed otherwise. And I want to just mention about the towel. So it's an actual beach towel,

00:04:47   like a real deal beach towel. We're working with our friends at Cotton Bureau. This is

00:04:52   why I love working with Cotton Bureau because Jason said to me, wouldn't it be nice if we

00:04:56   did a towel? And I said, Jason, yes, it definitely would be. So I contacted our friends at Cotton

00:05:03   Bureau. I told them what we wanted to do and they do what they always do for me, which

00:05:07   I appreciate so much when I come up with these weird and wonderful things where they're like,

00:05:11   hmm, let's see if we can do that. And then they go away and they come back to me and

00:05:15   they find a way to do it. So we have a, like, I'm really, really excited about this merchandise

00:05:20   this year because I love the design in general, but I am very excited about tote bags and

00:05:26   beach towels. Like that is just like a fantastic, like, isn't it great? You know, like maybe,

00:05:31   maybe you're a person like t-shirts aren't for you. Well now you can buy a tote bag or

00:05:35   a beach towel and you'll be happy. So go to upgradeyourwardrobe.com.

00:05:40   I had told you that I got stopped somewhere. I was actually on a walk with my dog and somebody

00:05:47   actually asked me where dongle town was. Interesting. And I said, okay, how am I going to respond

00:05:55   here? And I said, I let him in on it. I said, it's kind of a joke about how, you know, if

00:06:01   you buy a new computer, you have to plug in like an adapter, like a dongle in order to

00:06:05   get it to work. And he was like, oh, and I said, it's a computer thing. And then I ran

00:06:09   away. You should have just said it's in all of our minds and in the bottom of our backpacks.

00:06:16   That's where dongle town is. It's everywhere. Dongle town is all around us. But being in

00:06:19   California, people are like, oh, dongle town, California, where is that? And the answer

00:06:22   is it's everywhere. Oh, I guess that's the problem being in California. Oh, uh, Myke,

00:06:29   I was very confused that dongle town surf club didn't come in the tank top, like you

00:06:32   said, but it turns out right at the very top of the, of the page, there's a little toggle

00:06:36   for T or tank. So if you're a, if you want to show off the guns, I will not be buying

00:06:42   the tank top, but there it is. It's available for you. I'm going to buy the tank top. I

00:06:47   will probably never wear the tank top, but Adina is very excited about the tank top.

00:06:51   Awesome. I am. I'm glad to have it. And for those who are wondering about more traditional

00:06:56   upgrade merch of logos and hoodies and things like that, that's more of our fall collection.

00:07:01   I would say this is our summer collection. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go with that. Oh, there

00:07:09   are also some pins left. Some sort of, we have a small amount of logo pins left if you

00:07:12   want to get those too. But, uh, upgrade your wardrobe.com. Get ready for the summer. It's

00:07:19   only available for a couple of weeks. You don't want to miss out on these ones. Uh,

00:07:22   so go get it. Um, follow up, no spoilers. We have both seen Avengers Endgame. We're

00:07:27   not going to be talking about it on this show as we would usually do. There's going to be

00:07:30   no mic in the movies about it because we're both going to be discussing it on the incomparable

00:07:33   this week. So Jason has finally allowed me to be on the episode of the incomparable and

00:07:39   I'm very excited. Yeah. We're going to talk about it on Saturday. So we get a week to

00:07:42   think about it and then we'll talk about it on Saturday and I will, my plan is to talk

00:07:45   about and release that episode next Saturday and then there's a second panel of the incomparable

00:07:50   because everybody wanted to talk about it and that'll probably release Sunday. So it's a

00:07:53   double feature, but you and I will be on that episode on a, on Saturday so people can keep

00:07:59   their eyes on the incomparable. I wonder what the total runtime of those two episodes will

00:08:03   look like compared to the total runtime of Endgame. Well, I mean, that's a good question.

00:08:09   I think, I think if you put them both together, I think it would be great if you put those

00:08:13   two episodes together, it was the runtime of Endgame. I fear it will be more than that.

00:08:17   Yeah, I reckon it will be more than that too. I have a lot to say. I don't know if I'm going

00:08:21   to be able to get the time to see it again though. That's the problem. I'm hoping to

00:08:26   see it again this week because there's a, it's a, it's a three hour movie. There's a

00:08:30   lot in there and I would love to see what I kind of missed the first time. I've, you

00:08:37   know, podcasting about a movie you see once so much of what I do is a movie that I watched

00:08:40   on video after seeing it in the theater or it's a TV show where I can watch it. It is

00:08:44   a very different experience when you can only watch it once and you can't take notes, which

00:08:49   is what happens when you see a movie in the theater. So I'm hoping to go back and see

00:08:52   it sometime this week if I get a, if I get a chance. You know, I realized Marvel movies

00:08:57   have occupied a third of my life. Oh yeah. Isn't that wild? That's true. Isn't that wild?

00:09:02   Yeah. All right. So you can look out for that. Well, that's it. They're never making any

00:09:06   more Marvel movies now. That was it. The end. That was what it meant. Yep. Spoilers. That

00:09:11   was it. That's what we said at the end. Disney, yes. Disney stock went down on the revelation

00:09:15   at the end of Avengers Endgame that Marvel comics is shutting down. Strange. It's a shame

00:09:20   they made a billion dollars this weekend. They should probably keep going, but oh well.

00:09:23   I found it really weird when Captain America looked directly into the camera and said,

00:09:28   that's it for Marvel now. See you kids. That's it. Go home. Very strange. He took off his

00:09:31   mask and he just dropped his shield and walked off and said, said, uh, later losers, no more

00:09:38   superheroes. Go find your Batman. If you love him so much. It was really weird. Yeah. Well,

00:09:44   I thought the moment where Captain America endorsed Batman was perhaps the strangest part

00:09:48   of that. He's like, you know, Batman's pretty great. Go talk to Batman. Bye. Smell you later.

00:09:53   Smell you later. He was out of there. Yep. It would have been a new catchphrase if only

00:09:56   there was more Captain America movies, but unfortunately no more because there are no

00:10:00   more Marvel movies. All right, let's do some upstream. Got a couple of headlines in streaming

00:10:05   media. Uh, Comcast, believe it or not, as if it couldn't have been predicted is in talks

00:10:10   to sell Hulu to Disney. Uh, according to CNBC sources, Comcast is currently weighing up

00:10:16   its options over what to do with its 30% stake in the streaming service. One of those options

00:10:21   is indeed to sell it to Disney and Comcast and Disney are talking about it. Uh, I mean,

00:10:27   everybody knew this, right? Like this was not, this is not a revelation, but seeing

00:10:31   it on CNBC makes it seem more real than just what we'd believe would happen. Yeah. The

00:10:36   new piece of information here is that they are talking, uh, which is, I think that was

00:10:41   unclear whether there was active conversations about the future of Hulu and the ownership

00:10:45   of Hulu or whether they were just sort of like, everybody knew that this would be a

00:10:49   thing that needed to happen, but they are talking. What the CNBC story says is that

00:10:55   Comcast has not decided what it wants to do. And it, and they went into, you know, it's

00:11:00   very much the arguments that we discussed maybe last week, which is the idea that, uh,

00:11:05   they could keep their stake and be a part of something and sort of get a peek into Disney

00:11:10   strategy, their competitor, but at the same time, they would also be involved with their

00:11:14   competitor instead of doing their own thing. So I think it sounds like Comcast is also

00:11:19   weighing sort of strategically and maybe the game here is also like basically what's it

00:11:23   worth it to you? What's it worth it to us? What's it worth it to you? It's a complicated,

00:11:27   uh, thing and it could go either way. I think the cleanest thing would be for Comcast to

00:11:31   get some cash and walk away and use that cash to build their own streaming service rather

00:11:37   than a kind of continuing to partner with Hulu. But what they did say, and I think this

00:11:41   is an important point is Hulu has, you know, it's not just a place where you come for original

00:11:47   streaming. It is the TV industry's, um, playback for broadcast TV in the U S and Comcast did

00:11:56   say that they are happy with, you know, the fact that they put their shows on Hulu. I

00:12:00   still have got to think that in the long run, um, they're going to want to put all of their

00:12:05   shows, including NBC's network TV shows on their streaming service, um, because that

00:12:10   then it's a direct customer relationship with their content. And I think it's actually a

00:12:14   pretty great thing having bought CBS all access for star Trek. I have, uh, I have watched

00:12:23   some CBS shows that I would not have thought to watch or would have forgotten to record

00:12:28   on my DVR. But the way that service works, you get access to all their shows. The moment

00:12:33   that they air, um, they're on, it's like HBO go the moment that the CBS shows air they're

00:12:38   on streaming and I'm on the ad free tier. So it's basically all the CBS shows are available

00:12:44   for me, ad free, no commercials by paying for this. And there's something it's actually,

00:12:49   that's not bad. Like the combination of all the network shows, the w when I want to watch

00:12:53   them and all their originals in one package, I look at CBS all access, which is very narrow.

00:12:59   And I think this is a model like this is what Disney should take all of ABC and put it on

00:13:04   Hulu. NBC universal should take all of NBC and put it on their new streaming service.

00:13:09   That's like, that's how you should do it. That it actually makes a lot of sense. I think

00:13:12   it really, uh, strengthens the service by basically saying we have a TV network, but

00:13:18   you're streaming, so you're obviously not watching it. So you get these shows here instead.

00:13:22   Like I don't see the problem with that. So, um, I have a hard time seeing them in the

00:13:26   long run staying, but they're talking, it's good. And Warner media will be showing off

00:13:31   their streaming service this fall. CEO Randall Stevenson has said that they will be giving

00:13:36   a detailed look at the platform and its content in either September or October. Um, they on

00:13:41   the line that HBO will be at the center of the platform. And this is a quote, the Disney

00:13:46   announcement gave us nothing but more optimism about what we'll be able to bring to market.

00:13:51   Um, that considering the quotes that surround all of this does not sound as snarky as you

00:13:57   could imagine it sounding. Um, it actually was more of like a Disney have a really good

00:14:02   offering kind of thing. And it looks like something that's exciting and we think we

00:14:07   can do it too. Not so much of like, Oh, saw what they did. You want to see what we got?

00:14:12   It was, I think it was more, and I think rightly so that Warner media should be encouraged

00:14:15   by Disney. Um, and, and I think that Warner media really feel like they have something

00:14:22   to offer and it's not necessarily what people think of them as having, right? Like I think

00:14:27   with Disney, people are much more aware of what Disney owns and they are with Warner

00:14:32   media. Um, you know, like I think that people just think of HBO as HBO and like game of

00:14:38   thrones is owned by the HBO company, but it turns out it's also owned by the wizard company

00:14:43   too. So like, you know,

00:14:44   yeah, I think putting HBO at the center of the platform is a smart thing. I think that

00:14:48   that was the, that that's, we'll see exactly what they mean by that, but like using HBO

00:14:52   and kind of inflating it and saying, you know, HBO is going to be the start of this and maybe

00:14:56   it's not all of it, but it's, it's the core and it's going to do more content. If you

00:15:00   view like the Disney presentation where they've got their brand tiles of like Disney and Marvel

00:15:04   and all that, like Warner media doing something like that, where they've got, they've got

00:15:08   an HBO stream and they've got a DC superhero stream and they've got some other, you know,

00:15:12   Harry Potter stream or whatever it is, however they want to put that together, you gotta

00:15:16   take advantage of your brands and your intellectual property. And the most powerful part of the

00:15:21   Warner media kind of content development, uh, world is HBO. HBO is at the center of

00:15:28   it. So they are leaning into that, which is interesting. Of course, a lot of people have

00:15:32   left HBO because it's not going to be the old HBO. It's going to be this new kind of,

00:15:36   you know, higher volume content HBO, but, uh, it's still the center of their strategy

00:15:41   and it should be.

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00:18:38   So Jason, you wrote an article on Macworld last week where this quote comes from, which

00:18:45   I enjoy very much. These past months I've noticed something strange creeping into my

00:18:49   thoughts occasionally while I sit at my desk working on my iMac Pro. iOS does this better.

00:18:57   Shock horror. Heresy. So what's going on here Jason Snell? You know, finder windows is where

00:19:06   it all started. It started in the finder windows. I want you to know, I'll get into this a little

00:19:09   later on, but you've infected my brain now with this technology. I heard from some of

00:19:18   my friends who are long time Mac users who are like, "Mmm, what are you doing?" I can

00:19:22   only imagine this upset quite a lot of people. But you know, and as I'm writing it I'm thinking,

00:19:26   does this come across as one of those things where a columnist says something inflammatory

00:19:30   just to get attention? And the answer is, I kind of don't want your attention. I'm just

00:19:35   writing about this because it actually happened to me. It's literally, that is the story here.

00:19:40   I am working in the finder and I've got windows open and some windows are behind other windows

00:19:45   and then I realize that I've got eight of the same window open for the same folder,

00:19:49   which I was going to put in to mention how the old finder wouldn't let you do that. And

00:19:52   then John Siracusa sent me a note and said, "Something something spatial finder?" And I

00:19:57   was like, "Yes, I almost went there." And I decided, "No, no, no, no, no. I'm not going

00:20:02   to go back to the past." But I had that moment where I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to open this

00:20:05   window and I'm going to go to this folder and I'm going to make a new finder window and

00:20:08   I'm going to click on this thing in the sidebar and it's going to go to this other folder

00:20:11   somewhere else and I'm going to move the files over and then I need to get this file out

00:20:14   of the downloads folder and I'll open that and all that." And I thought, "This is kind

00:20:18   of silly, isn't it?" Like, I get why I need to do that sometimes and I've got workflows

00:20:22   that have built up over years in terms of this stuff. But I had that moment where I

00:20:26   thought, like, on my iPad, I'm in an app, I'm in like OneWriter and I swipe from the

00:20:32   left side and it shows me my little stories folder in Dropbox where all my stories are

00:20:36   and I pick one or I press the plus button and it makes a new one in that folder and

00:20:39   I give it a name. And on the Mac, it's sort of like, you know, some of this is also habit.

00:20:46   Like I could go to BBEdit and press open and use default folder to set like the stories

00:20:52   folder to be my default folder and set the window to be the right width and look the

00:20:55   way I want and do the same thing. I could do that more or less, but the way I've been

00:21:01   trained to use the Mac is go to the finder, open a window, navigate to the right folder

00:21:05   and then create a document or open a document that's in there. And it was just a little

00:21:10   moment where I thought why—I wanted to ask myself, because I write about this, I wanted

00:21:14   to ask myself and talk about it, why do I feel this way? Let's explore this. And I was

00:21:23   thinking, I think iOS is the reason. I think this is an example where I—without saying

00:21:29   that I think iOS is initial extreme concept of files not existing, that was too much,

00:21:37   too much. But I get the idea that maybe something we said earlier about old technology, right,

00:21:44   and how Apple hopefully could come up with something better than Apple events, which

00:21:49   they invented in 1991. I had that moment where I thought, ah, this is really a fundamental,

00:21:57   brilliant concept from 1984. But, you know, I'm—now it's 2019 and I'm still opening

00:22:05   finder windows and moving things around. And there are a lot of parts of my job where I

00:22:12   feel like an app-based context makes more sense than a file-based context. And some

00:22:18   of this is me and it's not the system, some of this is me. And Apple has definitely tried

00:22:21   to push a lot of its apps to be more app-based and not finder-based in terms of how you use

00:22:27   them. That's why Logic and Final Cut store things in packages and, you know, GarageBand

00:22:33   does that too. And there's a lot going on there and iCloud Drive tries to push you in

00:22:37   this direction. But I just—I don't know, I had that moment where I thought, oh, I prefer

00:22:44   the fact that iOS kind of gives me the files that I want in the context of the app I'm

00:22:50   using. And if I really need to go and dig around with files in the file system, I'll

00:22:56   open the Files app or the Dropbox app or whatever. And it was just—it was a—it was an interesting

00:23:03   kind of like moment of realization that I'm not—something happened where I do not take

00:23:13   the conventions of the Mac for granted in the same way that I used to because I'm using

00:23:18   iOS so much that it's changed the way I think about some of this stuff. Not saying like

00:23:22   the Mac is bad and that iOS is good, it's way more nuanced than that, but saying that

00:23:27   some of the assumptions I made about how I use my computer are changing.

00:23:33   I am definitely in the mindset of preferring the app-centric model of files and how you

00:23:43   manage your computer life. Because I think of my work as happening in places. There are

00:23:49   apps and tools that I need when I'm in a certain mode. And I think more easily in that

00:23:55   way than considering which document do I need to find in which folder structure to begin

00:24:01   my work right now. I am much more of the idea of going here. And you mentioned that you

00:24:07   reference OneWriter, which is where you write a lot of your stuff on iOS, right? You open

00:24:12   that app and now you're in writing mode as opposed to like, "Let me go into Dropbox

00:24:19   through six different nested folders to get the file that I need to open OneWriter with."

00:24:26   And it's just like a different—and I don't think either of us is saying like one is right

00:24:30   and one is wrong. It's just like a different way of thinking. But it's interesting to

00:24:36   me that you have changed your thinking having used the Mac for longer than me. I did find

00:24:43   this funny actually. Like Casey on ATP referred to me as a new Mac user.

00:24:49   New Mac user, yeah. I've been using the Mac for nearly 15 years.

00:24:56   Welcome.

00:24:57   As long as him, right? Which is kind of funny. I think me and Casey—actually I've been

00:25:02   using the Mac for longer than Casey because Casey's first Mac was the white MacBook.

00:25:08   I had the Intel iMac. So I am a longer time Mac user than number one upgrade in Casey

00:25:15   List. But I'm considered a new Mac user because I am not like deep into the terminal.

00:25:21   Like I am just like a regular—

00:25:22   You're of the new generation. You're one of these kids today.

00:25:25   Yeah, who uses iOS.

00:25:28   With their iPads and their iPhones.

00:25:29   With their apps and like forgetting about their files.

00:25:31   And their rock music and whatever.

00:25:33   But I have an actual example of something that happened to me today after preparing

00:25:38   for the show. I was on my Mac and I was working on a contract in Pages and I needed to sign

00:25:43   the contract. So I've made it in Pages and I needed to sign it before I could send it.

00:25:49   So I had to go into Pages. I exported it as a PDF, saved it to my desktop. Then I had

00:25:54   to open a Finder window, go to the desktop, right click the file, open in, choose PDF

00:26:00   pen, sign it, save it, open up my email app and send it. On iOS, I'm in Pages, I click

00:26:08   share, I choose PDF. It then gives me an open in dialogue immediately. I just tap on PDF

00:26:14   pen and then I sign it and save it. Like there's none of this middle dance of like, "Where

00:26:19   do you want to save the file?" Right? Like there's none of that. Like it just goes from

00:26:22   app to app and I really like that. And I know that sometimes on iOS, the share extension

00:26:29   stuff can be clunky, but when it works, which for most of the stuff I do works great, like

00:26:34   for that exact type of thing of like taking a document, turn it into a PDF, send it somewhere

00:26:39   or whatever. That's way nicer to me because it's just going from app to app. Like the

00:26:44   idea of me saving it to the desktop and then opening it again somewhere else is a completely

00:26:50   unnecessary step for me to have performed the work that I wanted to perform.

00:26:53   And there are issues here, although Apple has made some changes in iOS where now you

00:26:56   can sort of like open a file directly in from an app and it opens it directly. It's not

00:27:01   creating a, you know, another version of it.

00:27:03   Yeah, which is great.

00:27:04   Which is the way it always used to be.

00:27:05   Yeah, that's really good.

00:27:06   So you can work on the same file and move it around between apps. And that's the kind

00:27:10   of thing that, you know, iOS is coming out of its extreme origin of no files and that's

00:27:16   not, that doesn't work either. I was thinking about like Logic or Final Cut. Logic is a

00:27:22   good example because I added a lot of podcasts in Logic and I also added podcasts in Fair

00:27:26   ight on iOS where they have a package format, which I don't use probably because in part,

00:27:32   it's part of my workflow, but part of it is also that I'm very file oriented because it's

00:27:35   the Finder and it's a Mac and all of that. But like dragging the best way to put a bunch

00:27:41   of files into a Logic project is to open the Logic project and then open the Finder and

00:27:46   then drag the files in one by one to write where you want them to go. And Logic, as far

00:27:50   as I can tell, doesn't even have a batch import feature. It has an import file feature that

00:27:56   lets you pick a single file. So, and that's not better. So the Finder ends up being, and

00:28:04   I think maybe this is the root of it is, interacting with lots of files in lots of complicated

00:28:08   ways on the Mac. Most apps are just like, just use the Finder. Like don't involve me.

00:28:14   Drag and drop works, drag the files in. I don't need to know about it. Whereas on the

00:28:20   iPad, if I transfer files over and I'm in a project, Fairight will bring up a little

00:28:27   side panel with all my files and I can drag them out one by one. And they're, you know,

00:28:32   basically I airdrop those files to Fairight, not to a holding folder. So then they're in

00:28:37   Fairight's storage area and then I'm dragging them into the project and then they're in

00:28:41   the project. And I think that's better. I think that's a better approach. And I know

00:28:45   it's different and what, you know, these platforms are colliding. So part of my thought here

00:28:52   is just Apple is trying to push the Mac to be a little more app-centric in terms of documents.

00:28:57   Apple is also trying to push iOS to be a little less app-centric. And I think that's good

00:29:02   because I think there is a place that is more than what the Mac does today, but also more

00:29:07   than what iOS does today. That is probably the better place for users because the, you

00:29:13   know how you and I go back and forth about things like to-do lists and project management

00:29:18   apps and all that kind of stuff where my big concern is always the danger of becoming—Merlin

00:29:24   has talked about this a lot—it's the danger of becoming somebody who's a professional

00:29:27   organized person who doesn't end up doing their job because they're spending too much

00:29:32   time getting organized and not actually doing the work. And that's always my concern about

00:29:36   putting any time into kind of like organizational stuff is this is time away from the work.

00:29:41   I should just do the work. And you take that to an extreme and it's ridiculous too because

00:29:45   you're completely disorganized and you can't do the work. So you have to find that medium.

00:29:49   But anyway, this is a little bit like how I am thinking about like the argument about

00:29:53   the Finder being the center of the Mac is you end up being like in the early days of

00:29:58   the Mac custom folders, custom folder icons and colors and all this stuff was like a huge

00:30:03   part of your identity as a Mac user was like the file system was your identity as a Mac

00:30:08   user. And from a little bit of a remove I look at and I think it's kind of ridiculous,

00:30:14   right? Like managing my files and folders, it's—I used to file my email in specific

00:30:20   folders and now I just have an archive in Gmail and I search for it. Like I gave up

00:30:24   the idea of creating these archives because it seemed like a waste of time. And I feel

00:30:30   like maybe fiddly—when I talk to people about the Finder a lot of times it's sort

00:30:35   of like, "Oh, but I need to put these files in these places and I do a lot of filing of

00:30:38   my files and I put them into these places where I can get them later." And you know,

00:30:43   sometimes if you're working on projects with co-workers and things like that, sometimes

00:30:46   that is necessary.

00:30:47   A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I wonder if a lot of the fiddling around with files

00:30:52   in the Finder that Mac users do is just because it's the center of your world and not because

00:30:59   you really need to be spending time fiddling around with files and folders. I think it's

00:31:04   unnecessary.

00:31:05   You know, the underpinnings of it, the stuff that goes into the file system on the Mac,

00:31:11   by and large, unless you're using something like Dropbox, it's not collaborative. So the

00:31:16   reason I mention this is we use Google Docs all the time, right? I have no idea how my

00:31:21   Google Docs are filed because it's not important. Because the system is collaborative at its

00:31:27   core. It's up to me where I find it. It's up to you where you find it. And we just deal

00:31:31   with it that way. It's not about having this nested file system of show notes documents.

00:31:36   Yeah, and it's very much like when I went from Eudora to Gmail and just said, "You

00:31:41   know what? I don't need to create a complicated series of mail filters that put every message

00:31:45   that I get in my history in a very particular mailbox for me to retrieve later." Because

00:31:51   technology has reached the point where I can just say, "Hey, where's that email about this?"

00:31:55   And it shows up. And I don't need to know any more than that. And it's a different way

00:32:00   of doing it. And it's, you know, changing the way you work is hard because it incurs

00:32:05   a cost. And it goes back to the idea of not wanting to waste my time doing things that

00:32:13   aren't my work. Well, making a change in how you work is time spent that isn't your work.

00:32:18   And I get that that's a hard thing to do. But in a moment like this where I've, you

00:32:23   know, using iOS has changed my perspective a little bit, I look at it and I go, "Oh,

00:32:26   wow, that's a lot of busy work just managing where things go." And yeah, my Google Drive

00:32:32   is not particularly well organized. In fact, the only way that my Google Drive is organized

00:32:37   is mostly about permissions because you can set like a folder to have specific share permissions

00:32:43   in Google Drive. And then if you put a file in it, it inherits the folders permissions

00:32:47   like that. But that's a function. That's like, "Oh, Dan and Steven can see the Six Colors

00:32:53   Magazine folder." That's a different kind of thing that's not really organizing the

00:33:00   files. And yeah, and I also know that some people are like, "What do you mean you're

00:33:03   not organizing your files? You've got to organize your files." It's like, I get it, but I don't.

00:33:09   Honestly, I need to organize them in very specific ways for projects and things, and

00:33:14   that's it. And if Logic or Final Cut, which actually does do this, did all that work for

00:33:21   me, then I would really not have to do it.

00:33:23   I do want to just mention files, the Files app on iOS. It's not better than the Finder.

00:33:30   No, it's not good.

00:33:31   Let's not get this confused, right? Like when we're saying here that like managing files

00:33:35   on iOS is better, it's like the difference in the kind of the ideological view of how

00:33:42   you work, right? The Files app sucks.

00:33:44   Right, right. No, if it's a shootout between Files and the Finder, like no, the Finder

00:33:48   is a spectacularly powerful tool for moving files and folders around on your computer.

00:33:55   And Files.app is a barely like a 2.0 kind of product that's got all sorts of quirks,

00:34:02   and it's better than what was there before, which was nothing.

00:34:05   Well, the iCloud Drive app.

00:34:07   Well, the iCloud Drive app was the 1.0, right? And Files is the 2.0. But it's like, it's

00:34:12   not, it's not great. And iOS's approach, I guess what I'm saying is iOS having this document-centric

00:34:21   approach I think is smart if they can find lots of good ways to integrate the concept

00:34:28   of files when necessary. Because there are times when you want to say, "I need this file

00:34:31   from my archive. I need this file that I worked on. I want to make sure this file is backed

00:34:35   up. I need to send this to somebody." There are things like that. That's why Files needs

00:34:38   to be better. But I think coming from the approach iOS is coming from, I'm seeing the

00:34:45   benefit of that in a way that is harder to see on the Mac due to a mixture of things,

00:34:51   due to a mixture of assumptions based on like how the Mac has always behaved and my history

00:34:55   as a user and how a lot of apps choose to interact with the file system on the Mac.

00:35:00   Because on the Mac, you've got this great file utility that's at the very center of

00:35:04   everything. And so you use that. If you're a Mac app, you use that. Now with Marzipan,

00:35:14   what happens there? That's a whole other issue because those apps are all being designed

00:35:18   to be app-centric and not document-centric. So you start with the app and then the documents

00:35:21   kind of come along for the ride, which is the opposite of how the Mac... The classic

00:35:25   way you worked on a productivity app on the Mac back in the day was that you found the

00:35:31   document you were working on and double-clicked on it. And then it opened an app that opened

00:35:36   the document. That's the exact opposite of how it works on iOS, right? You open the app

00:35:44   and then find the documents that belong to that app. And there's something to be said

00:35:49   for that in a lot of contexts, not all contexts. But anyway, that was my journey, Myke. I feel

00:35:55   like I've stepped outside of my computer history just enough with using iOS in addition to

00:36:02   macOS that it lets me see some of my habits and some of the assumptions of the Mac interface

00:36:09   in a way that I hadn't before.

00:36:10   Well, this is what lies before us over the next 12 to 18 months is thinking in these

00:36:16   terms. It's very different now, right? Like we are moving, you know, whether happy or

00:36:22   not into a kind of merged future. And it's going to require a lot of soul searching for

00:36:30   users of Apple's products to kind of work out where they want to sit on this side of

00:36:37   Marsapan. You know, like it's going to be interesting. I think it's interesting. We'll

00:36:46   see how it ends up shaking out.

00:36:48   Yeah, it's a lot of design decisions that Apple is going to have to make. And it's going

00:36:51   to be weird. Like, as we said before, you said it two weeks ago, I think. It's going

00:36:56   to be weird. Like, let's underline that. It is going to be weird. Even if Apple does a

00:37:00   great job and executes this incredibly well, it's still going to be weird because you've

00:37:04   got a whole class of apps that are not like the apps that have existed on the Mac. And

00:37:08   they're going to have, you know, if, if, uh, Gee Rambo and Steve Tron Smith are to be believed,

00:37:13   like it's going to be more like classic in some ways where like there's going to be a

00:37:17   separate system folder with the Marsapan stuff in it like there is on Mojave. And that's

00:37:21   not the system folder that the Mac apps use. It's the system folder that the Marsapan apps

00:37:25   use. It's going to be weird even if they execute it well. And then we're going to go through

00:37:29   this process, but it's also kind of fascinating to watch how it might evolve. Um, because

00:37:35   I feel like the decision that Apple made when they kind of made their change about how they

00:37:40   were viewing the Mac, um, was on one level a, be careful what you wish for from, for

00:37:46   Mac users, because I think Apple pivoted from saying the Mac is a legacy platform that we

00:37:54   want to keep around and keep the users on it happy, but it's not the future. It's just

00:37:59   going to stay the way it is. And they pivoted from that to, all right, we're going to drag

00:38:04   the Mac into the present. And this kind of stuff is how they're doing that. And if you're

00:38:08   a long time Mac user, you will be uncomfortable. And I will be too, because I am one of you.

00:38:14   I will also be uncomfortable because the Mac is going to have to change in ways and it's

00:38:18   going to be weird. So that's the bottom line.

00:38:20   It's going to be really strange to open some applications and be like, you don't look right.

00:38:25   Like that's what it's going to feel like for a while. You know, like Steve Trout and Smith

00:38:30   was, was tweeting over the weekend and he was kind of just like, I wouldn't say call

00:38:34   to arms as such, but like, you know, like, Hey, if you are a developer and you think

00:38:40   you are going to move into this, like, because he says like, I am, you know, I'm going to

00:38:44   move all of my apps to Mars and Pan because it's what I want to do. Let me know. And I

00:38:47   saw, we're going to talk about overcast in a bit, but I saw Marco Arment say like, my

00:38:51   plan is day one. Like I want to have overcast on the Mac day one. It's going to look so

00:38:57   strange, right? To like be on my iMac and click the overcast. It's going to look like,

00:39:04   I reckon basically the same, I would assume my iPad app. And that's going to be very,

00:39:09   very disorientating. So that's why it's going to be weird. That is, I think this is going

00:39:16   to be, as we ramp up towards the summer of fun, we're in the weird time now. Yeah. Or

00:39:23   is the fall the weird time when it ships? So it's summer of fun and then the autumn

00:39:26   of weird. The autumn of weird. We'll find out. All right. Today's show is also brought

00:39:30   to you by our friends over at Luna display, the makers of the hardware solution that turns

00:39:35   your iPad into a wireless display for your Mac. Meaning you'll have a second display

00:39:39   that is super portable with basically zero lag and stunning image quality. Setting up

00:39:44   extra screens can be a fiddly and frustrating experience, but Luna display couldn't be easier.

00:39:50   You just plug a lovely dongle, whether you're in town or you're at the beach, you know,

00:39:54   doesn't matter. You just plug this dongle into your Mac and you're good to go. Everything

00:39:58   works over wifi if you're in regular dongle town. But if you're at the dongle town surf

00:40:02   club, you can do it with a USB connection if there's no wifi connection for you. How

00:40:06   perfect is that? So you might be traveling, you can just use a cable instead and you still

00:40:10   have the ability to use your Luna display to screens. You can have your laptop, you

00:40:15   can have your desktop and your iPad to the side and you can use it just like an external

00:40:19   monitor. It supports external keyboards, touch interactions in the Apple pencil. I will say

00:40:24   you mentioned in your article about touchscreen Macs. Um, and it made me think of the fact

00:40:30   that I think the Mac with an Apple pencil is fantastic because I do this all the time

00:40:36   now. Like that is the easiest way and I'm using my Luna display to get all the touch

00:40:41   interactions that I want, but it works perfectly. Like I really like being able to use like

00:40:48   my Apple pencil in pixel mater on my Mac over Luna display, which I do quite a lot. The

00:40:53   art, the, uh, the, the, the banner image that I made, like the kind of, of our merchandise

00:40:58   is in our show notes and we tweeted it and stuff. I made that in pixel mater on my Mac,

00:41:03   on my iPad with Luna display and my Apple pencil because pixel mate on the Mac is better

00:41:10   than pixel mate or an iOS, which breaks my heart, but it just is. It's easier to use.

00:41:14   But anyway, like you can do all of this stuff. I do all the time. Uh, they also recently

00:41:18   Luna displays always having a bunch of updates to make the system better, including the new

00:41:21   liquid video engine, which brings significantly reduced latency and faster screen refresh

00:41:26   rate, which just makes it even better than ever before. Listeners at this show can get

00:41:30   a exclusive 10% discount on Luna display. Just go to L U N A D I S P L A Y.com, Luna

00:41:37   display.com. Use the promo code upgrade at checkout. That is Luna display.com promo code

00:41:43   upgrade at checkout. Go there right now and upgrade your setup. You're going to love it.

00:41:48   Our thanks to Luna display for their support of this show and all of relay FM. So we mentioned

00:41:54   overcast a moment ago, uh, over the weekend, uh, Marco shocked the world and introduced

00:41:59   a new feature to overcast. Um, about basically with the idea to share clips, to be able to

00:42:07   have you listening to it, to an episode of one of your favorite shows on overcast and

00:42:10   you're like, Oh, that was a good little clip. Previously, what you would do is you grabbed

00:42:14   the URL, right? And you'd just tweet about it and be like, Oh, this is a really good

00:42:18   episode, but there's no context there. There's nothing, there's no, cause it's so difficult

00:42:24   to share this stuff. Or maybe you'd, you'd get a timestamp link in overcast and you tweet

00:42:28   that, but not everybody uses overcast or any other app that might do this. Right. So like

00:42:33   then you kind of locked in and you might, you might not click it because you use pocket

00:42:38   costs. So like what uses this to you? You can't do anything with that. And it's a weird

00:42:41   context where it's loading a webpage and then it has to load the whole file and wait until

00:42:45   it gets to the, you know, where it can load. Your web browser has to load it to get to

00:42:49   the time code and that if it's dynamic ad insertion, the time code may be, may have

00:42:53   drifted and then you're not even sharing that moment that you want to share. So Marco has

00:42:57   created some new UI inside of overcast where you can, if you listen to a show, you can

00:43:03   press the share button and you can select a clip to create a clip and you can create

00:43:07   a clip of up to one minute in length that can be audio only or video in horizontal,

00:43:13   vertical or square formats. And it uses the show artwork and it has like some animation

00:43:17   going on and you can choose, I love this, you can choose to add overcast branding and

00:43:23   Apple podcast branding or no branding at all. That is a Marco move. I think if I've ever

00:43:30   seen one that like he will just let you not put his branding in there. Right. We'll get

00:43:34   into that a little bit more in a minute because I think it's actually pretty important when

00:43:38   talking about this whole thing in general. This was all inspired by a thing that my Relay

00:43:44   FM co founder Stephen Hackett said on an interview show that he was on called Unco. It's actually

00:43:50   a really good interview, the whole thing kind of like Stephen's thoughts on podcasting,

00:43:53   its history and all that kind of stuff. But Stephen was talking about the virality of

00:43:58   podcasts that it's super hard to share clips that might give people a taste of the show

00:44:03   that someone's talking about. People tend to just share links and texts and that kind

00:44:07   of stuff. And as a podcast producer, it is such a pain to do this kind of stuff with

00:44:12   the tools that currently exist. Right. Like I would open like Final Cut. Right. And drop

00:44:17   everything in just for the sake of creating a 25 second clip that I could show on Instagram.

00:44:22   Like it's too difficult. But this gives me as well as a producer of shows the ability

00:44:27   to grab a clip that I would want to share as well as like and if you think like if it

00:44:32   would be too much hassle for me to do this, no listener is ever going to do this. Right.

00:44:37   Like you're not going to go to the effort of like creating a video project to share

00:44:42   a 20 second clip of a show that you enjoyed. And I don't know about you, Jason, but I've

00:44:47   been seeing these clips all over my timeline on Twitter this weekend. And I have loved

00:44:52   it because I've seen people sharing stuff that they like. I've had listeners of my shows

00:44:57   tagging me and clips that they've shared. And I've really enjoyed actually going back

00:45:01   and listening to these like 20 second random things from like years ago. You know, like

00:45:05   someone went back to the beginning of the pen addict when me and Brad talk about the

00:45:08   fact that we don't like fountain pens that much. Like that is the kind of stuff that's

00:45:12   like popping up. And like so I want to use this feature to promote my shows. Like I'm

00:45:17   trying to get into that mindset a little bit more and I hope to see people sharing this

00:45:21   stuff too. What did you think about this feature? I well first off it's funny because as a beta

00:45:27   tester of Overcast, I think it's funny that he didn't beta test this feature. No, that's

00:45:31   what I mean. He shocked the world. Nobody nobody knew about it except Steve himself.

00:45:36   He didn't want to put it through the approval process for test flight. So he just did it

00:45:40   himself. I think it's I think it's a great move. I think this is you know, I I think

00:45:48   he's trying to keep it within fair use which is why it's a single like minute clip because

00:45:53   he wants this to be a viral thing that promotes podcasts. I think he's run up against some

00:46:00   challenges in in terms of how iOS sharing works where it's not as straightforward as

00:46:09   it should be like you can share the video but it doesn't come with a link to the podcast

00:46:13   because it's just a video. Yeah, and so then you need to like copy the Overcast link and

00:46:20   then copy I kind of want him and I know he probably can't do this. But what I really

00:46:25   want is like a video share that also puts something on the clipboard that's like the

00:46:30   name of the episode and a link to the podcast or something like that something a little

00:46:34   richer than what is currently there, but I know that there are a lot of complexities

00:46:39   in that situation but at the bottom of this, you know, he's trying to solve a problem that

00:46:44   we've all been moaning about for a long time, which is it's very hard to share to really

00:46:49   share a great moment in a podcast and have it, you know, have it kind of go viral instead

00:46:55   I see these links all the time where people are like, oh, this was a really great moment

00:47:00   about this thing. So you should listen to my podcast. It's like, okay, I am now going

00:47:04   to download an entire episode of your podcast. That's a harder sell not sight unseen but

00:47:10   like here on heard. Yeah here on heard exactly right. So instead I get to listen to a clip

00:47:15   up to a minute and think oh, that's really interesting or funny or whatever and maybe

00:47:21   I'll go listen to it. But also it allows fans listeners of podcast to share favorite moments

00:47:27   and that's also a lot of fun. So I hope it I hope it takes off and I hope more podcast

00:47:32   apps do it. Yes. This is what I wanted to talk about right the idea of this how these

00:47:36   tools are for podcasting in general because there are a lot of like proprietary systems

00:47:43   like platforms and stuff like that that will that can generate these things for you, but

00:47:47   you have to work with them. You have a host of them. I have an arrangement with them like

00:47:50   you'd be a part of this like big huge CMS network thing and that's not tenable for most

00:47:57   people right like it's requiring way too much and I think that this stuff is really useful

00:48:09   when it is available to everybody right like I hope the other third party apps find a way

00:48:15   to make features like this for themselves. Like I am obviously a huge fan of overcast

00:48:19   and Marco was one of my closest friends. So I want him to get more customers because of

00:48:22   this right so I'm happy he did it first for that reason, but I also hope now that the

00:48:28   success of this feature will prompt other app makers to do it too because then it's

00:48:32   good for everyone and like this goes back to kind of what I was saying about like the

00:48:36   branding thing the fact that Marco will allow you to put branding in or not is that I feel

00:48:42   like that whilst he is very happy to have it out first would also encourage other people

00:48:48   to do this because it is good for the overall podcasting ecosystem that we all seem to care

00:48:55   so strongly about like and it was like a quote from Marco's kind of announcement posted this

00:49:01   that I wanted to read where he said for podcasting to remain open and free we must not leave

00:49:05   major shortcomings for proprietary lockdown services to exploit conversely the more we

00:49:09   strengthen the open podcast ecosystem with content functionality and ease of use the

00:49:14   larger the barrier becomes that any walled garden must overcome to be compelling and

00:49:18   like I you know this is why like I am happy that an app that is as popular as overcast

00:49:28   is run by someone whose podcast politics align with my own because you know it makes me happy

00:49:41   that someone like Marco is I mean this is very we're inside baseball right now but this

00:49:46   is like coming in from a weekend of this this this startup called luminary which is like

00:49:52   a closed platform system that is that really upset a lot of podcasters because they said

00:49:59   podcast didn't need ads and they are a system where it is a regular app but it also has

00:50:06   this paid tier so it's a free app where you can listen to in theory can listen to any

00:50:11   podcast then as a paid tier where they have a bunch of stuff which is exclusive for them

00:50:16   and they will kind of when they first came onto the scene their whole PR was about like

00:50:19   oh we're better because our shows don't have ads and podcasts don't need ads and they just

00:50:23   need our system instead and then there's been this whole furor over the weekend of just

00:50:28   a million basically a million different things that luminary has done wrong throughout their

00:50:32   launch and the way that they're communicating and so after something like this to see a

00:50:37   tool like this and you know for it coming from Marco is like I consider it a good thing

00:50:43   I personally am not worried at all about the future of our business here I have seen and

00:50:54   maybe being naive but I've been doing this only 10 years and I've seen a million things

00:50:59   come and go that are going to destroy podcasting especially over the last few years and I have

00:51:07   seen every single one of these make absolutely no dent in anything maybe at some point it's

00:51:14   going to happen but I don't think that we are any closer to the heat death of podcasting

00:51:19   now than we were five years ago like I just don't think that it is significantly closer

00:51:24   like the part of the industry that we're in is still growing you know like I don't really

00:51:33   know how much people want to hear about this sort of stuff but like advertising revenue

00:51:37   is going up and if you're in the right places at the right times and you're doing the right

00:51:41   things like this business can still be an extremely viable one if you do it in the right

00:51:48   ways I feel like the right model here is to look at the web and say what's great about

00:51:55   the web is that the web browsers are just part of the landscape of your device everybody's

00:52:00   got web browsers and the web browsers all look all work on the web and if you want to

00:52:04   give away things on the web and have advertising you can do that and if you want to charge

00:52:08   for content on the web you can do that and that the way forward for podcasting is probably

00:52:15   a system and we kind of already have it but it could be better but it's probably just

00:52:20   embracing open podcast standards along with a an easy for users way to say I have paid

00:52:29   for this like you do in the web so authentication and you some podcast apps support authentication

00:52:37   now where you can put in a username and a password and get to a password protected feed

00:52:41   or a user and password protected feed that is what open podcasting is kind of lacking

00:52:46   right now is a unified way of doing that where if you try to subscribe to this podcast a

00:52:53   put in your username and password prompt comes up and then you do that and every podcast

00:52:57   app supports it.

00:52:58   Right this you're saying like if if what you want to do is have some method of podcasting

00:53:04   which is paid.

00:53:06   Right because one of the ways that the one of the reasons this is happening is because

00:53:09   if you want to charge the and build a fairly simple experience for people who want to pay

00:53:15   to listen to a podcast or a network of podcasts you have to build your own app basically because

00:53:21   it gets it's ugly it's like asking people to subscribe to a raw RSS feed URL like it

00:53:26   gets complicated and it's not supported the same way everywhere and that is what open

00:53:31   podcasting is missing that the web allows you to do because the web will let you a web

00:53:36   browser will let you log in and it'll let you take a cookie that says you are logged

00:53:39   in and then you get access to the premium content, you know, whatever it is the Wall

00:53:43   Street Journal New York Times the Financial Times you name it and podcasts that part is

00:53:49   hard right now because it didn't really get built that way and I feel like the best thing

00:53:54   that the open podcast community could do is try to find a way forward that lets open podcast

00:54:01   apps deal with subscriber content because right now you've got this weird place where

00:54:09   there are podcasts like luminary that are trying to podcast apps that are trying to

00:54:12   mix both they're trying to say well we're a podcast app plus our podcasts are in here

00:54:16   and that what they're trying to do is remove this barrier which is I need to switch to

00:54:23   a different app in order to listen to these certain kinds of podcasts that are not available

00:54:28   elsewhere and that and then my all my other podcasts are over here and that kind of stinks

00:54:33   and like audible has done that with their channels stuff and I you know I had access

00:54:40   to that and I basically never listened to it because it's in a different app and I don't

00:54:43   want to listen to my podcast in a different app that is like you know it's okay if you

00:54:50   want to have a separate app like audible to do audiobooks right like a separate app but

00:54:54   where luminary is kind of in the middle here is this they want to have it both ways they

00:54:58   want to they want to be part of the open podcast environment that people like and sell you

00:55:03   stuff and because they can't do that inside other apps they have to do it in their app

00:55:07   and and and I do see that as another weakness of the podcast world like I I have for because

00:55:14   I have podcasts that are behind a membership you know and you do too for a relay right

00:55:19   so there we both have have this and you know it's kind of security through obscurity it's

00:55:26   kind of porous it's not the best and like I could I would love it if there was an easy

00:55:31   way for me to just say put in your six colors or incomparable username and password and

00:55:36   then you get access to these podcasts on every podcast player on every platform but it doesn't

00:55:42   exist so I you know that that to me is a hole that I would love to see plugged somehow maybe

00:55:48   somebody should pull VC money into that idea well actually you know what would be really

00:55:53   interesting is if Apple did it did it if Apple came up with a system where Apple said from

00:55:58   now on the podcast app will accept this method of authentication and only this method and

00:56:04   we will show your authenticated podcast in the iTunes directory but mark that they're

00:56:08   paid only and allow previews and like if Apple built that feature out and it wasn't just

00:56:15   for Apple's player key point they could move the entire market to do it I feel like probably

00:56:22   the company close enough right now is patreon well patreon right patreon has that idea that

00:56:30   you're logging in and you get a URL URL it's still complicated but they could provide an

00:56:35   API right you know well I mean well so so wouldn't that I think it starts that would

00:56:40   be great it would I think Apple doing it would be the one that would push had the highest

00:56:45   chance but you're right patreon could could help matters too I just like Apple would be

00:56:49   less likely to make it open to everyone then patreon well that's I feel I feel that's the

00:56:54   problem is that is is that Apple wouldn't be as inclined to do that but I don't know

00:56:59   I mean Apple so far has not really exerted their authority in this space maybe they would

00:57:02   just make it really easy for you to pay for those things with Apple pay do it that way

00:57:07   but I don't know that is a challenge but this you know this is a whole about the lack of

00:57:12   virality in podcast content that Marco is trying to fill and I think it's great I mean

00:57:18   how many times have I had a moment where I am drawn I'm driven to tears by wacky things

00:57:23   happening on the flophouse and I just can't I just can't share it like I can't share when

00:57:31   Stewart doesn't understand the key for Sutherland is in trapped inside the mirror at the end

00:57:35   of mirrors wait what come on right it's so funny what and I can't I can't share that

00:57:41   I can't what come on he's in a mirror like it's so funny and it's like I can't I just

00:57:48   can't so this gives it gives me an ability to do that that's great I hope people use

00:57:52   this I really really want people to use it and I'm so pleased that Marco made it I think

00:57:57   it's I think it's really awesome and I'm very pleased to see stuff like this exist and I

00:58:03   hope that more people do this I hope to see you know my hope would be like that this feature

00:58:10   does so well that Marco puts even more effort onto stuff like this right and and there is

00:58:16   a business benefit for him like a legit business benefit like it is making his app better as

00:58:21   well which is awesome but at the same time I think is helping something that I care a

00:58:26   lot about so it's definitely worth checking out and trying out if you are an overcast

00:58:31   user or you're not maybe you can find your favorite moments of upgrade maybe you want

00:58:36   to make a Twitter account which just shares our crazy conspiracy theories that we love

00:58:40   around here whatever you want but like I would say if you do ever share any clip of my show

00:58:47   please tag me in it because I like to hear what people enjoy because we get so little

00:58:53   feedback especially detailed feedback about like this was really funny right that you're

00:58:57   an audience that might laugh or scowl or whatever to what we say unless we're live you know

00:59:03   in the theater in Chicago or at WWDC or whatever like we don't get that feedback about like

00:59:09   I really like this bit it's very hard to express that because you listen to the whole podcast

00:59:13   you think oh wow Myke says something super smart there which makes a change I think he

00:59:18   should know he should know then yeah let me know but yeah so that's worth checking out

00:59:23   there's of course links in the show notes for you to check those stuff out show notes

00:59:28   are important to podcasting too in oh they are opinion not everybody agrees with links

00:59:33   with links today show is brought to you by hello hello make insanely comfortable buckwheat

00:59:38   pillows I don't know if you've ever tried a buckwheat pillow but it is pretty different

00:59:42   to your regular fluffy pillows buckwheat pillows support your head and neck so much better

00:59:46   because they don't collapse under the weight of your big brain like traditional pillows

00:59:51   well hollow pillows stay cool and dry compared to feather or foam pillows they breathe better

00:59:57   so you don't need to find the cool side of the pillow because the whole pillow is cool

01:00:00   because air can flow through it you can also add or remove filling very easily to suit

01:00:06   your needs so it can be just the right thickness that you want buckwheat pillows are super

01:00:10   popular in Japan they are on the I've never come across a pillow menu at a fancy hotel

01:00:16   before but the people at hello tell me that they exist and if you do come across a pillow

01:00:21   menu you may find buckwheat pillows on there and I bet it is a very tippy top of that menu

01:00:26   because I love my hollow pillow I have been sleeping on it for nearly a year now I got

01:00:32   it last June I'm never going back like I absolutely love the support that I get from this pillow

01:00:40   like it's so comfortable for me hollow pillows are made in the USA with quality construction

01:00:45   of materials they're certified organic cotton case is cut and sewn for durability and the

01:00:49   buckwheat is grown and milled in the US as well you may be curious to try one of these

01:00:53   out and you can because you can sleep on it for 60 nights and if hollow isn't right for

01:00:58   you you can just send it back for a refund go to hollow pillow.com slash upgrade right

01:01:03   now and you can get your own buckwheat pillow there's h-u-l-l-o-p-i-l-l-o-w.com slash upgrade

01:01:10   and if you buy more than one they have a special discount of up to $20 off depending on the

01:01:14   size you opt for they have fast free shipping of every order and 1% of all profits are donated

01:01:19   to the nature conservancy give it a try if you love it you keep it if you don't just

01:01:23   send it back hollow pillow.com h-u-l-l-o-p-i-l-o-w.com slash upgrade our thanks to hollow for their

01:01:28   support of this show and relay FM I wished sometimes that our company was called relay

01:01:35   fmo because then I could say that whole thing and it would rhyme because it's thank you

01:01:41   to hollow for their support of this show and then relay fml o you know but that that's

01:01:47   not we did we unfortunately we didn't make that decision nearly five years ago so I'm

01:01:53   stuck all right let's do some hashtag ask upgrade yeah this really needed the lasers

01:02:00   today because the first question is about lasers and I knew that you were not going

01:02:05   to give me them unless I was quiet for a long time so here we are Andrew asks does Jason

01:02:11   make pistol fingers or stabby pointing hands while doing lasers no no first off fingers

01:02:19   don't shoot lasers okay okay they don't that's silly that's ridiculous I I just lean I lean

01:02:25   into the microphone and then the lasers emerge you lean in I do for lasers I get in as close

01:02:34   as I can to the microphone I'm actually touching the microphone with my face to get the full

01:02:40   laser experience oh wow yeah can you give me a laser from from regular distance oh that

01:02:48   sucks I don't want that right if those are garbage lasers nobody wants those lasers I

01:02:53   want I want lasers this is if people are gonna make clips of this is this what is this what

01:02:59   they're gonna make take it all back Jeff wants to know do you know of any podcast apps that

01:03:06   support re-listening to old shows I'm thinking of something where I can tell it to start

01:03:10   with this episode and then download a new episode every X days so you kind of listening

01:03:15   in a time machine so I call this the Syracuse a feature because John always tells us you

01:03:22   start at the beginning I don't even know if it needs to download an episode every X days

01:03:25   I think I think what you really need is an inversion of the standard podcast procedure

01:03:30   which is start at the beginning and keep three episodes or whatever download this many episodes

01:03:35   when I'm done I just want the new one to pop up that's yeah so what I what I want is I

01:03:41   want to say you know keep three episodes and start at the beginning and so it'll download

01:03:45   the first three episodes and when I finish episode one it will download episode four

01:03:49   yeah and the key part here this is not a sorting option this is the I like because you can

01:03:54   a lot of apps have sorting options right where you can like right reorder them this is the

01:03:59   idea that like it would show up in your all unfinished playlist or whatever or your like

01:04:04   all unplayed playlist or whatever function of your app which shows like a chronological

01:04:09   list of all the stuff you have to listen to right like it's a new episode but it's actually

01:04:13   not and I agree I think this I think stuff like this should be great I don't know about

01:04:19   any apps that do this I have lobbied Marco for this feat for the Syracuse a feature in

01:04:24   overcast pretty hard because there are podcasts I listen to now that I am way behind and I

01:04:31   want to go through them sequentially from the from the point you know from the start

01:04:35   or from the point where I am now and I want to have that behavior where when I'm done

01:04:39   with this one I listen to the next one but because it's a podcast that's that's currently

01:04:45   like 50 episodes ahead that is more work than I'd like I'd really like to say you know I

01:04:50   want to start season two of hello from the magic tavern now and then just keep giving

01:04:56   me new episodes and you could do you could do it keep giving me a new episode every week

01:05:01   I tend to listen to a lot of shows in bit like that in binges so I'd like to be able

01:05:06   to say you know keep three or five or whatever at any one time and then as I as I've finished

01:05:11   the last one put the next one in the download queue or in the playlist or in the streaming

01:05:16   queue because I'm gonna keep on moving forward I think I think this is fitting with our theme

01:05:21   this is another way that podcast apps can make things easier for users where you can

01:05:25   do this now but it's more work and it shouldn't need to be some podcasts there's even a tag

01:05:30   in iTunes Apple made a tag that is basically start from the start instead of show me the

01:05:36   latest things that are not timely Apple made a lot of tags last year a couple of years

01:05:41   ago nobody's using unfortunately they're very hard to implement visually but that's an interesting

01:05:48   idea where like that could be a cue for somebody for an app developer to be like oh I'm gonna

01:05:52   offer for this podcast I'm gonna offer the start at the beginning option because the

01:05:57   podcast maker marked this as a start at the beginning so like total party kill is like

01:06:00   that the D&D podcast that I do it it's a start at the beginning podcast and you can draw

01:06:06   you can jump in anywhere but it is a series of linear stories with different groups but

01:06:10   they all start at the start and go forward through right and seasons yeah yeah for the

01:06:15   no podcast apps other than apples that support you using all I like you're using all of the

01:06:19   features I got all the nobody nobody's all in there them because even apples implementation

01:06:24   some of this stuff leaves a lot to be desired yeah I agree and I think that's why no other

01:06:28   apps have implemented them because the creator of this new part of the RSS standard has yet

01:06:35   to implement it in a way that visually makes a lot of sense that that is pleasing I you

01:06:40   know I wish that they that some of that rich data would get better used but I understand

01:06:44   also that most people don't use it and so there's no point in it but this is an example

01:06:47   where it might actually be helpful to say you know oh I can tell at least on some podcast

01:06:53   that this is a start at the start and even offer this as a feature but it regardless

01:06:57   it should be easier for users who want to start at the start of something if I'm listening

01:07:00   to hello from the magic tavern I tell somebody because let me tell you now it's great it's

01:07:05   an improvised fantasy podcast about a human from earth who lands on a fantasy world and

01:07:10   he and a wizard and a shape-shifting badger person do a podcast every week and it's entirely

01:07:16   improvised and it's hilarious but part of the hilarity is that they every time they

01:07:20   make something up it's part of the cannon and they can't contradict it later and so

01:07:24   you really need to start at the start you can do that you can subscribe to hello from

01:07:29   the magic tavern and make the effort to tap in the right places and play the first episode

01:07:34   it would be a lot nicer if the default was not here's the latest episode of hello from

01:07:39   the magic tavern because you don't want to hear it you want to hear episode one and then

01:07:45   if you like it episode two that's how it should be consumed my my one of these is the adventure

01:07:52   zone yeah that's a great I mean the dnd podcast so the the adventure zone dragon friends are

01:07:57   both both those podcasts or podcasts I'm listening to from way back in the catalog and I would

01:08:02   actually listen to them more often if I didn't have to go and say oh where am I in the adventure

01:08:07   zone like oh I downloaded three episodes I must be there now it's like I would rather

01:08:13   just subscribe to it right like uh like jeff suggests here I will say I would like to to

01:08:18   claim immunity from this uh request I put this question in before we uh spoke about

01:08:25   Marco adding features to his app so you know sorry Marco because we're clearly directing

01:08:32   this at you now I think at least I am because it's the app that I use and I want that feature

01:08:38   uh Kevin Kevin has a question do you think that if a developer uses marzipan apis in

01:08:43   an app they will be required to distribute it via the mac app store 100% kevin 100% this

01:08:50   is probably a bigger discussion for a later episode as again we either get closer to or

01:08:57   away from wwdc but why did apple all of a sudden decide to redo the mac app store yeah

01:09:06   I think eventually you're going to be able to buy either for a discount or whatever you're

01:09:10   going to just be able to buy all of the um all of the apps for all the platforms at once

01:09:15   right instead of right now you're going to have to buy the mac app separately from the

01:09:18   ios app yeah I think in the long run that's probably not going to be the case that they'll

01:09:22   get bundled together or at least developers will have the option to bundle the app across

01:09:26   platforms together maybe for a special price who knows and then we'll stop calling it the

01:09:30   mac app store yeah it'll just be the app store I think there's I wouldn't say it's 100 I'd

01:09:35   say it's like 95% because it's possible with all these new things that they're adding um

01:09:41   where they're you know they're notarizing apps and things like that yeah there might

01:09:44   be a few things you can do it's possible that that they'll let marzipan apps in as notarized

01:09:52   apps and have it be mandatory so you still have to pass through apple's process before

01:09:56   being released but I think it's also entirely possible that it'll be 100% mac app store

01:10:02   uh my kind of where I think the line will be drawn if like from a user interface perspective

01:10:07   like if you're using UIKit you'll be in the mac app store but if like you know we were

01:10:11   talking about the idea of maybe integrating with shortcuts like if those are separate

01:10:15   APIs you can probably still be out of the app store and use those that's how I kind

01:10:18   of think of it in my brain if your app's going to look like an ios app it's going through

01:10:22   the app store that's how I that's where I kind of like draw that limit in my brain um

01:10:28   jack says you're very skilled in the art of speaking on a podcast did that come just from

01:10:33   experience prove that this week I don't know oh did you actually do something conscious

01:10:37   to learn these skills I don't mean recording I mean speaking and presenting voice modulation

01:10:41   pacing articulation um jack did not direct this question specifically at either of us

01:10:49   so I'm going to assume jack likes the way that we both speak okay great and I think

01:10:55   the answer for this is the same for both of us where it's purely a case of practicing

01:11:01   and paying attention to the things that annoy people more frequently because they can't

01:11:07   get out of your brain and then you end up kind of changing a lot of the way that you

01:11:11   speak if you're Myke Hurley you lost a lot of your accent is what happened is you became

01:11:18   more like an American person it's I think there's multiple things going on here I think

01:11:22   some of it is just who you are and how you speak and that is your starting point like

01:11:27   I I gave my elementary school graduation speech I was in radio in high school humblebrag I

01:11:37   gave a I gave a speech at my high school graduation I you know I I have done I I got a bunch of

01:11:45   medals at the speech festival when I was in eighth grade I had the key to the sea because

01:11:54   of a great speech that I gave once I'm Batman no I you know so I I've been doing this a

01:12:02   long time of like public speaking public also part of his personality which is public speaking

01:12:06   has never bothered me like some people say it's the worst thing that you could possibly

01:12:11   do there's death and then like one up on the list of terrible things is public speaking

01:12:15   I've never felt that way I am awkward in lots of social situations but in front of a crowd

01:12:21   on a stage is not one of them so I I've got that going for me and then what Myke said

01:12:25   which is then you do this for years and every now and then I get an email from somebody

01:12:30   who says I just listened to upgrade number one or I just listened to the incomparable

01:12:33   number one and wow that you are much better now than you were back then it's like thanks

01:12:38   I guess like you're insulting my past to compliment my present how do you get to do a live show

01:12:43   at Carnegie Hall Jason ten thousand hours of practice and I mean it's not an accident

01:12:50   you just wander on the stage that's well and that was going to be my point is one of the

01:12:54   reasons that I don't feel bad about somebody saying I listen to incomparable number one

01:12:58   from August 2010 and wow your podcast is much better now is because it it should be right

01:13:04   yeah like you would I hope so I would really not be happy if I did something for nine years

01:13:11   and didn't get better at it like that is not not just like the technology and I'm using

01:13:16   a better microphone I'm better at microphone technique and I'm better at editing podcasts

01:13:19   and all that but I should be better as a host I should be better at speaking like you should

01:13:23   keep getting better at whatever you do as you go so part of it is that is you just got

01:13:27   to get started and and get better as you go and that's true for everybody so don't don't

01:13:33   say you know don't say oh I can't do a podcast because I'm not as polished as all the podcasts

01:13:38   that I've been listening to for many years like you got to start somewhere yeah and you'll

01:13:41   never go down that road if you never get started if you feel that way because like you're like

01:13:45   oh I love this show and I'd never be as good as them just go back to the earliest recording

01:13:50   you can find of that person and you will immediately feel better about yourself Myke has done a

01:13:54   really good job of hiding a lot of his old podcasts don't even exist on the internet

01:14:00   anymore because hello governor go all the way back though to 2012 with the episode one

01:14:07   of the pan addict yeah and you can listen to this guy who's talking like this and he's

01:14:12   so happy to be on a podcast he's a soccer hooligan he is who loves pens he'll stab you

01:14:18   with his pen he will anger him and finally Jay Lilly asks I'm getting a MacBook Air for

01:14:24   my wife to use during her master's program should I get eight gigabytes of RAM or 16

01:14:28   gigabytes of RAM always more RAM right as much RAM as you can afford I don't know it

01:14:34   depends on what his wife is doing with her master's degree if she's doing basic stuff

01:14:38   like I'm I I think that RAM gets oversold especially in this era of SSDs and 8 gigs

01:14:44   of RAM as a standard is actually pretty great so unless she's doing stuff like she's got

01:14:48   lots and lots of apps open at once and things like that I think I think the best buy on

01:14:53   laptops right now is to watch for one of these sales on Amazon or elsewhere where the MacBook

01:14:59   Air base model gets sent sold for $9.99 I think that's at the right price and it's a

01:15:04   great deal if you can get one and I've gotten to that way so I feel like that's the best

01:15:08   thing to do is just get the base model because for most uses it's gonna be fine like unless

01:15:14   unless she's getting her master's in like 3d graphics or computer science or engineering

01:15:20   or something like that in which case she's got some very specific technical needs but

01:15:23   if it's not something that specific I think I wouldn't worry about it quite honestly I

01:15:29   would go with the base model because I think the base model is pretty good and honestly

01:15:32   I probably spend money on disk before it's been on RAM because the base disk on the MacBook

01:15:37   Air is very very small.

01:15:40   If you would like to send in a question for a future episode of the show just send in

01:15:44   a tweet with the hashtag #AskUpgrade and it may be considered for a later episode and

01:15:48   if you want to be if you want to own the coolest podcast merch of the summer you need to go

01:15:55   to upgradeyourwardrobe.com and you can get that wherever you want to be super cool in

01:16:01   San Jose or you just want to think about USB when you're at the beach you can do that with

01:16:07   the dongletown surf club merch at upgradeyourwardrobe.com available until just May 13th so do not delay

01:16:16   on this one go buy it now now now.

01:16:19   Thanks so much to our sponsors this week the fine people over at Luna Display, Holo and

01:16:25   ButcherBox.

01:16:27   If you want to find Jason online sixcolors.com the incomparable.com and he is @JSNEL J S N

01:16:32   E double L I am @imike I M Y K E and I and Jason both host many shows here at relay FM

01:16:38   go to relay.fm/shows and you may find something new.

01:16:42   We'll be back next week until then say goodbye Jason Snell.

01:16:46   Pew pew pew.

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