242: Myke and the Modems


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 242. Today's show is brought to you by

00:00:13   Borrow, TextExpander, and Moo. My name is Myke Hurley, and I am joined by Jason Snow. Hi, Jason Snow.

00:00:18   [Myke makes laser noises]

00:00:19   Hi, Myke. I brought the lasers.

00:00:21   Wait, we are- Ask Upgrade already? What's happened?

00:00:24   Nope, I just had some extra lasers there. Yep.

00:00:26   Oh, okay, good. Well, should we just- should we start where we normally start with a #SnowTalk

00:00:30   question? Oh, well, I was- I was tempted to say, "Why don't we do the entire show backward?" But

00:00:35   let's not. Let's start with the- let's do it the normal way.

00:00:37   I will say that is a tantalizing prospect for me.

00:00:40   Myke, Summer of Fun.

00:00:42   Yeah, can you write that one down? I want to do a backwards episode.

00:00:45   Backwards episode.

00:00:47   It's Downgrade. Oh, there it is. We're working this out on the show. We can't give away all of

00:00:52   our secrets. Summer of Fun is coming. Summer of Fun is coming soon. Sooner than you may think.

00:00:57   Our #SnowTalk question today comes from Jim, and Jim wants to know, "Jason, how is your life with

00:01:03   your Leaf going? Better, worse, or as expected for range and practicality?" Worth noting, a Leaf

00:01:08   is Jason's electric car.

00:01:09   It's an electric car. The Nissan Leaf, yes. I bought a- for those who don't know,

00:01:13   so excited about the, you know, prospect of getting an electric car, but I'm cheap, and so I bought a

00:01:20   used- that Nissan Leaf had come off a lease that somebody had had it on for three years or

00:01:26   something like that, and so it's older, and it doesn't have much range, and I love it.

00:01:30   It is a- it doesn't have much range. The bottom line is you cannot drive it very far,

00:01:36   but we bought it as a- as much as I hate to say this- third car because my daughter basically

00:01:44   has one of the cars, and she drives around with it, and that's great.

00:01:50   And we thought that this- originally, this was going to be the car that we let her use,

00:01:54   and we were going to get rid of the other car, but quite honestly, we love the car so much that

00:01:59   that wasn't going to happen, so Jamie drives the Civic around, and we- Lauren drives the Leaf

00:02:03   every day to work. She works in our town, and so the range doesn't matter. We take it whenever

00:02:10   we can, so within our county or, like, into San Francisco, we can take it. I will take it

00:02:17   at longer ranges if there's charging on the other end that I can count on, so I take it up to Petaluma

00:02:22   for Twit because there's an electric car charger across the street from the Twit offices that I use.

00:02:27   It's fun to drive. It's fun driving an electric car. I enjoy driving an electric car,

00:02:34   and the only challenge with it is because we were cheap and got an electric car for cheap,

00:02:40   it doesn't have much range, and so that does limit us. We have- that's why we still have the

00:02:46   minivan. The minivan doesn't get driven very much anymore, but it gets driven when we need to take

00:02:52   lots of people somewhere, or we need to load a bunch of stuff in the back because the seats fold

00:02:57   down, or if we need range, and then we take the minivan, but otherwise, it's the electric car.

00:03:02   It's great. I want all my vehicles to be electric, but that's not going to happen for quite a while,

00:03:06   probably, but for now, it's- I think it was a very, very good move to buy this used electric

00:03:15   car because it gives us the goodness of the electric car without a big cost and at a weird

00:03:24   time when we have this with the extra driver in the house. Also, it satiates some of my desire,

00:03:32   some of my fascination with other electric cars. It would have been- like last year,

00:03:37   when they started aggressively marketing the Tesla 3, and a bunch of things happened with

00:03:46   different rebates and things like that. Anyway, there were several times where I thought to

00:03:49   myself, "You know, if I didn't have an electric car, I would be buying an electric car right now,"

00:03:54   and I'm quite happy to have gone the cheaper route and got the discount.

00:03:59   Right. If you had never done it, you would have found it difficult to resist at that point.

00:04:03   Well, those cars are all like $30,000, $35,000, $40,000, and we bought ours for like $8,000 or

00:04:10   $9,000. So, yeah. This is smarter. Thank you so much to Jim for sending in that

00:04:18   question. If you would like to help us open a future episode of Upgrade, just send out a tweet

00:04:22   with the hashtag #snowtalk, and your question may be considered for future use. We should move on to

00:04:28   some follow-up. On Photoshop for the iPad, which we spoke about in Ask Upgrade last week, where is

00:04:33   it? Well, we heard from Upgrade J, who says that his team was told at Adobe Max that it's looking

00:04:39   like a fall 2019 release for the program, which we'd also kind of speculated as a possibility,

00:04:46   right, that it would be released later in the year, post iOS 13 coming out, right, because it's

00:04:54   like, "Oh, I bet there's some stuff in there that would be super useful to Adobe, but they can't

00:04:58   release it yet because of it." So, maybe that's it, or maybe Adobe's just taking their time.

00:05:04   But, yeah, Adobe seems to be telling people, if they ask at Adobe Max at least, the fall of this

00:05:10   year. Sounds good. Jason, you reviewed some new Kindles, and I wanted to ask you kind of like, one,

00:05:17   I don't know anything about these new Kindles, what makes these new Kindles new? And these

00:05:24   things just appear on six colors, and I never feel like I heard them before. And then I wanted

00:05:27   to kind of understand from you, considering there are a couple of new Kindles in the lineup,

00:05:31   what you recommend to people now as like the Kindle to buy for most people.

00:05:36   All right, so the super short, the TLDR Kindle segment here. I like the Kindle because it's a

00:05:43   unitasker. It just is for reading. I don't get any push notifications. I don't have the temptation to

00:05:49   swipe over and check out Twitter. It is really great in bright sunlight. They all light themselves

00:05:57   now, so you can also read them in the dark, and that works too. I think it's a great product. I

00:06:02   love it. I'm not interested in reading on my iPhone or my iPad. I will do that if I'm

00:06:08   somewhere without my Kindle, but otherwise, I won't do that. The new Kindles are the two

00:06:15   lower-end models. The high-end Oasis remains and will presumably be upgraded at a later date.

00:06:19   But the two new models, there's a new $90. That's the new base price. It's up from $80.

00:06:27   Kindle, but the new base model Kindle is the first base model to have. It's not backlighting,

00:06:34   it's lighting. It's like LEDs on the sides that kind of shoot out and light it because these are

00:06:38   reflective screens. They're like ink on paper, and so you can't shine something from the back,

00:06:43   but you can shine something from the sides, and it works pretty well. This is big because

00:06:47   up to now, the base Kindle, the cheap Kindle, couldn't light itself. It's been like seven years

00:06:54   since they added that feature to the first Paperwhite, and it's really dumb to have an

00:07:00   electronic reading device that you have to clip a book light to in order to read it at night.

00:07:03   It's silly. So that's over now, which makes that base model, I think, much more capable. Still,

00:07:09   it feels cheap. It's cheap and yet more expensive than it used to be. But if you're somebody who is

00:07:17   kind of mildly interested in having a Kindle to keep around or take on a vacation or something

00:07:23   like that, this is the Casey Liss test, I would say. I always think about Casey because he's like,

00:07:29   "Well, I'm interested in a Kindle, but not most of the time, just occasionally on a vacation or

00:07:33   something." At least that Kindle, that cheap Kindle, now will light itself, which I think

00:07:39   is a big plus. It's not waterproof, though. I find in my life filtering a lot of my questions

00:07:44   around what would Casey want helps me. What would Casey do? Yeah. So the Kindle Paperwhite also got

00:07:49   an update. It's $130, so it's $40 more than the base model. And what you get with that is a much

00:07:55   better screen. The base model Kindle's got like a 160 DPI screen or something like that. In my

00:08:01   review, you can see it. It's lower contrast and the text is more jaggy. The Paperwhite, you get

00:08:07   basically retina-level text resolution, higher contrast. It's backlighting or side lighting is

00:08:16   better. It's waterproof and it doesn't have any bezel stuff. On the cheap model, the screen is

00:08:28   sunken beneath the bezel and a lot of detritus, a lot of dust and crumbs and junk get caught in

00:08:34   the corners. And the Paperwhite is flat all the way across now, which is really nice. That's a

00:08:40   much nicer feel. It's nicer. And if you love, love, love, love, love, love, love, Kindles,

00:08:47   then spend almost twice as much and get the Oasis because it's great. It's just way more expensive

00:08:52   than the Paperwhite. And I think most people should buy the Paperwhite if you're in the market

00:08:56   for a Kindle because it is with the waterproof and the flat front and the better backlighting and the

00:09:02   better display. I think it's still the sweet spot and it has been. However, that cheap Kindle is,

00:09:08   I think there's a much better case to be made for the cheap Kindle than before. Even though the

00:09:11   screen isn't as good, the resolution isn't as nice. If you don't care so much and you're either

00:09:16   not going to get a Kindle or you're going to get the cheapest one around, I'm more inclined to say

00:09:22   that people can get that one now that you can also read it in bad lighting or in the dark. That is a

00:09:28   big improvement. That's a huge improvement. That's the number one required feature of a Kindle. So

00:09:34   I'm glad they finally added it. I recently watched a video about E-Ink, which I found interesting.

00:09:41   I learned a bunch of stuff about E-Ink that I didn't know before. It's from a YouTube channel

00:09:45   called Technology Connections, which is a channel that Marco recommended, which I do really love.

00:09:51   So if you are interested in learning more about E-Ink in general, I'll put a link in the show

00:09:55   notes. It's an interesting video. The guy who hosts this channel, Technology Connections,

00:10:00   I actually don't know his name. It's Mr Connections. Mr Connections, Technology to his

00:10:04   friends. He does an incredible job of making what should be incredibly boring things really

00:10:13   interesting. He's got a very, very good presentation style. That is an important skill.

00:10:20   Yeah, because the stuff that he talks about, right, like if you just look at his channel,

00:10:24   should be really boring, but he does it. He just presents everything in an incredibly good way.

00:10:30   He did this whole massive series about how laser displayers work. I don't know how much you could

00:10:39   get out of that, but really, really entertaining. Yeah, and E-Ink is a fascinating thing because it

00:10:43   is not like any other display technology. It is really emulating ink on paper. It's not just a

00:10:49   funny name. That's why it works the way it does where it's reflective, where it is like the light

00:10:56   comes down and hits the surface and reflects back in and that's how you see it as opposed to OLED

00:11:02   or backlighting where the light is coming out of the display at you instead of originating in the

00:11:08   display instead of sort of bouncing off and coming up to your eyes. That's one of the things I like

00:11:12   about it. I think the E-Ink displays are great for reading text on a page, which is what I use

00:11:18   a Kindle for. Apple and Qualcomm had been in some kind of legal battle over patents and payments and

00:11:27   all this kind of stuff for a while. And fried chicken, don't forget fried chicken. Yep, and

00:11:31   this is not a thing that we tend to cover on the show. I mean, mostly because I don't think... So,

00:11:39   I never put it in the show because I don't think I can make an interesting discussion out of that

00:11:44   type of stuff. So, that's why we don't talk about it, but they settled now. I think we may have

00:11:49   talked about it at one point just in the idea of like, is 5G going to come to the iPhone and when

00:11:53   is it going to come to the iPhone? Because there was a whole period there where they flew journalists

00:11:59   out to Hawaii and did this whole demo of 5G. You know, I actually think we have yet to speak about

00:12:05   this. Yeah, and I might have talked about it on Download. I wrote a piece about it a while ago for

00:12:08   Tom's Guide too where I said essentially, I wonder if I talked about this with John Siracusa back in

00:12:13   December. I wonder if I did that and when you weren't around. Like, "Scone, we can talk about

00:12:17   modems." That's when it's been spoken about on this show. You spoke a little bit about it.

00:12:21   And I have notes that at some point I want to talk about 5G on this show. So, everybody, welcome to

00:12:28   our new segment, Myke and the Modems, where every week we're going to talk about modems with Myke

00:12:32   Hurley. I'm hearing that Myke Hurley has just left the show. Well, anyway, the important point here

00:12:39   is that Apple has been in a patent dispute with Qualcomm for a long time, and last week they

00:12:45   settled. And nobody really knows why, but it has to do with Intel. It sounds like either Intel said,

00:12:52   "We're not going to be able to do 5G modems anytime soon. It keeps slipping. You're probably not going

00:12:58   to be able to ship it until 2021." That's a long ways away, right? Like, 2021. We're not talking

00:13:03   about this fall's iPhones. We're talking about next fall's iPhones not having the 5G networking

00:13:08   because of Intel. It's also possible that what Intel said was, "Hey, we have a new CEO, and we've

00:13:14   looked at this business, and it doesn't make any sense to have you as a client. So, go get your

00:13:18   modem somewhere else. We're going to shut her down." Right? We don't know which order maybe that

00:13:25   happened, but regardless, it's sort of about Intel's either unwillingness or inability to ship

00:13:29   these modems. Intel shut down its modem business last week in the aftermath of the Apple Qualcomm

00:13:35   settlement. Again, these things are not unconnected, but we don't know necessarily

00:13:41   all the deals. They will presumably come out in time. But a trial started in San Diego. They got

00:13:48   through a morning where there was a labored fried chicken metaphor about how patents are like fried

00:13:53   chicken. I don't really want to get into it. It was hilariously weird. And then suddenly, they

00:13:58   settled. And so, it sounds like in the background, Apple has been negotiating for a little while with

00:14:02   Qualcomm about a settlement, which usually happens before the trial starts. But it actually happened

00:14:07   on day one of the trial. I would expect that everybody, they had the conversations, right?

00:14:12   Apple knew what Qualcomm wanted. Apple weren't happy, but they knew the terms. And then when

00:14:17   Intel, my expectation is that Intel said to them, "We can't do this." So then Apple were like,

00:14:23   "Well, damn it. At least we know what Qualcomm wants." Yeah. Well, there was that Fast Company

00:14:27   story that Mark Sullivan wrote a little while ago that was pretty good that basically said,

00:14:32   "Apple's between a rock and a hard place here because they're not talking to Qualcomm and

00:14:35   Intel's dates are slipping." And beyond a certain point, Intel is saying, "We can't get you a modem

00:14:42   for the iPhone in 2020." And if you're Apple, you're like, "This is not going to work."

00:14:47   Because they're essentially, you know how Apple hates being tied to one supplier for anything.

00:14:51   Because of their dispute with Qualcomm, they only have one supplier and it was Intel. There

00:14:56   was a quick solution there, which is to settle with Qualcomm. And then you've got the patent

00:15:00   holder and also the supplier of the modems that everybody else is using more or less. And so they

00:15:06   made that deal and they paid them money and they licensed their patents and Qualcomm is going to

00:15:10   supply modems for future iPhones. Probably not this year, although it's not entirely impossible,

00:15:15   but probably next year for a 5G iPhone. The 5G tech is also really early and not rolled out very

00:15:21   many places and it's going to be a long rollout. So my Tom's Guide piece a few months ago was

00:15:26   basically like, "It's not a big deal if the iPhone doesn't have 5G in 2019." It's sort of like how the

00:15:31   original iPhone didn't have 3G. It was early days. It wasn't a huge deal. Going into 2021,

00:15:39   still not having one, not so great, right? I mean, it will become a marketing liability if nothing

00:15:44   else. So this gets them with the patents of Qualcomm and working with Qualcomm in the short

00:15:52   term. And presumably in the long term, Apple's plan is still to build its own modems, but it

00:15:58   will have access to the patents. It will have a licensing regime for Qualcomm's patents that they

00:16:03   would use in building those modems. And I've even seen speculation that it's unclear if perhaps

00:16:11   Apple might be interested in buying some of the assets from Intel since Intel is getting out of

00:16:17   the modem business and Apple is getting into it. But I think that's just been speculation.

00:16:23   So anyway, basically what this means is that Apple is returning to the premier provider of modems in

00:16:31   cellular devices and they've settled, for huge amounts of money, they have settled all of their

00:16:38   lawsuits against one another, that they have been, they had a long falling out that is now over.

00:16:44   - But probably the most important part of the settlement is that Apple have a patent

00:16:49   licensing agreement. So at some point they will be able to make their own chips if they want to.

00:16:54   - Right, exactly. - I think that's like the key part of it.

00:16:56   - Which they do. Well, in the short term, the key part is that they're gonna be able to use Qualcomm.

00:17:00   - Yes, exactly. But like if you're looking at the long game.

00:17:02   - Yep. Yeah, it's true. And I just, as a little aside here, boy, Intel, right? Like, okay.

00:17:09   - What are you doing, man? - You know, they miss the

00:17:11   boat on mobile, they miss the boat on modems, they're still shipping things for PCs,

00:17:17   but they have issues on PC, they have issues with GPUs. They're like, it's not a great time.

00:17:25   This is the kind of thing that happens where the very slowly over time, the previously impossible

00:17:32   to stop monolith in some industry, you know, becomes mortal. And, you know, they made a series

00:17:42   of bad steps that the new CEO has inherited and is trying to fix. And that's why I think it's

00:17:49   entirely possible that this all started with the new CEO saying, look, we're not gonna do this.

00:17:54   We give up because we're not just gonna, you know, Apple's business isn't big enough to keep us in

00:17:59   this business. And we have bigger fish to fry, honestly, somewhere else, because they're in

00:18:04   trouble on a lot of fronts. - Yeah, because it's worth remembering,

00:18:06   like, if you don't pay too much attention to it, like, whilst with our Apple computers,

00:18:11   Intel was the only supplier for the chips that we use in them, that is not the case in the PC world,

00:18:16   right? Like, you can get an AMD processor, or they have actual competition, credible competition,

00:18:22   on the other side of things, and they're starting to fall behind in a bunch of different ways for

00:18:27   the future. It's like a way people will talk about Microsoft, and I've spoken about Microsoft for

00:18:32   years, right? Microsoft are perfectly fine where they are right now, but they're not at the

00:18:38   forefront of anything, and that's a problem. - Yeah, except that they are making headway in

00:18:42   cloud services stuff, which gives them a growth gap.

00:18:44   - Yeah, I'm thinking maybe more, kind of, sorry, I should have rephrased that a little bit,

00:18:48   a little bit more before Satya Nadella's time, right? Where, like--

00:18:51   - Yes, yes, yes. - Where now they've focused.

00:18:53   - We're still big in our old thing, but where do we go from here?

00:18:56   And there are no answers, and Microsoft has managed to navigate that, and that does feel

00:19:01   like that's kind of where Intel is, but there was a time when Wintel was impossible to stop,

00:19:07   right? - That was it, yeah.

00:19:08   - But time moves on. Anyway, that's Myke at the Modems, woo!

00:19:11   - Myke at the Modems, everyone's favorite news segment. Now we will move on to everyone's actual

00:19:18   favorite segment, which is upstream, where we look at news and streaming media, and I have a couple

00:19:21   of things for you this week, Jason. Hulu has bought back AT&T's 10% stake in the company.

00:19:27   Now this is kind of confusing, took me a minute to get my head around this. So Hulu, the company,

00:19:32   has bought back 10% that AT&T owned in it. - Yes.

00:19:36   - These shares now need to be divided between Disney and Comcast to own Hulu,

00:19:41   and that has to be worked out between Disney and Comcast how that 10% is gonna be split up.

00:19:46   - Yeah, I assumed that it would be this thing where it would be proportional,

00:19:50   and what that would mean is that Disney owns two-thirds of Hulu and Comcast owns one-third,

00:19:54   but in talking to people who are more closely reporting on this, what I have heard is that

00:19:59   it's a little more complicated. That seems the most logical outcome, but it may be that there

00:20:04   are actually rules in Hulu's rulebook for investors that provide one of the investors an option

00:20:13   to buy that out and the other ones to choose. So there may be a choice involved. So for example,

00:20:21   Comcast could say, because they have the smaller allotment, we want the whole 10%.

00:20:29   Or maybe it's that Disney gets to say, no, no, no, we're gonna just put in and we're gonna take

00:20:34   this whole 10%. Or maybe it's just a very simple kind of like, we bought it back, it's a share

00:20:39   buyback, that 10% disappears and you go from owning 30% to owning 33.3%, and you go from owning 60%

00:20:48   Disney to owning 66.6%. But regardless, it means there are now only two players. This AT&T thing

00:20:55   was this weird outstanding bit. - Yeah, it was inevitable that it was going to happen. It was

00:21:01   just about when and how. - Because it's not part of their strategy at all. Whereas Comcast,

00:21:06   it's unclear. What I've heard, the analysis that I've heard is that, although it would seem obvious

00:21:13   that Disney would buy out Comcast share in Hulu and just take it over completely, that Disney

00:21:18   can't, by having a seat on the board, even though they're not the majority stake, the way that Hulu's

00:21:23   bylaws are written, Comcast gets a say in how Hulu is run, which is interesting. It means Comcast

00:21:29   gets a view into Disney's streaming business at Hulu, which is also really interesting. So there's

00:21:36   this question of, at what point do they want to not be in bed with Disney, their arch competitor,

00:21:40   anymore? And until that point, do they want to keep Hulu because it already exists, it's where

00:21:47   their shows are, it's part of their strategy too, and they can watch Disney at work in the meantime.

00:21:53   But it's hard to believe. They said they're going to launch their own streaming service in early

00:21:57   2020. It's hard to believe that in the long run Comcast is going to want to stay with Hulu because

00:22:04   they're going to have another service that they want to feed content into, and this one,

00:22:08   they're a minority stakeholder to their arch rival. I really, I mean, just my take on it,

00:22:14   which is based on no real knowledge, it just feels to me it's like Comcast will run this out until

00:22:20   they can get the most money out of Disney possible. Because as this continues, everybody knows

00:22:25   Disney's plans for Hulu, because Disney's told people what their plans are, and I feel like

00:22:31   that Disney will not be able to live out their real vision for Hulu as a service,

00:22:35   as this is where we put all the stuff we can't show to kids. I think that they want it.

00:22:39   But if you're NBCUniversal and you've got your catalog of content and you are launching your

00:22:45   own streaming service, at some point the pressure to leave is that you need to get your stuff off

00:22:51   of Hulu and put it on your own thing. AT&T leaving made a lot of sense because they're doing their

00:22:55   own thing and they also need the money, because AT&T have a lot of debt, and that's basically

00:22:59   what they've said. They're going to use the money and they're just going to pay off some debts with

00:23:02   it. And also, at 10%, they had no real say, and you're just going to have these two big,

00:23:08   huge companies, Disney and Comcast, probably fighting for the next five years. It was probably

00:23:12   worth AT&T's time to just take the money and run while it was valuable. But yeah, this is very

00:23:19   clear that Disney wants this. This is another step in making it easier for them, but they do not have

00:23:25   an easy road ahead because Comcast is giving no indication that they want to sell. So it's a

00:23:31   negotiation, I think, that is happening, and whether it's active or not, that is basically

00:23:35   the idea. It's like, how much is it worth to Disney? How much is it worth to Comcast? But I do

00:23:41   think Disney knows that there's a ticking clock because Disney knows that Comcast needs to launch

00:23:46   its own thing, and Disney is willing, with all the stuff that they've bought from Fox, they have

00:23:51   so much content that Hulu has to exist for them. Comcast is not really in that same situation.

00:23:58   They're going to launch something that is appreciably similar to Hulu, and they're going

00:24:01   to need content for it. So, you know, Disney, Comcast wants to escalate in terms of the price

00:24:08   that it gets out of Disney, and Disney knows there's a ticking clock, and we'll see who blinks

00:24:14   first. In some, I think, fantastic news, YouTube has ordered the Retro Tech series from Marques

00:24:22   Brownlee. After a successful pilot, which featured Marques looking at the Game Boy on the Game Boy's

00:24:28   30th anniversary, which is actually available, you can watch it right now on MKBHD's YouTube channel,

00:24:33   they have gone ahead and ordered a season of this show, it was basically a pilot, in which he will

00:24:38   effectively unbox and review classic technology products. The show is being produced in collaboration

00:24:44   with MKBHD and Vox Media, and will debut in 2019 on MKBHD's YouTube channel. This is not, even though

00:24:52   this isn't a YouTube original series, it is not going to be a part of any of YouTube's premium

00:24:57   efforts. This will just be on MKBHD's channel. But this is a restructuring of what YouTube is doing in

00:25:05   the original space. They've basically gutted YouTube Premium of the content that they were

00:25:11   making and buying, they're keeping around some successful stuff, and they're putting more money

00:25:15   into education and music. I am pleased that this is a sign that YouTubers realised what their actual

00:25:23   asset is, which is YouTubers, not celebrities. Like this is a, I think, positive sign. Because I would

00:25:30   have been very happy as a YouTube Premium subscriber to pay for this, like to have this show,

00:25:35   or I would have signed up for MKBHD's show if I hadn't already. So it's interesting to me that they

00:25:40   are making it available for free when it clearly would have been a good show that people would want

00:25:45   to pay for. But I am just pleased to see YouTube going back to realising what they actually have

00:25:50   that other people don't have. Yeah, imagine YouTube paying money to YouTubers to make more content for

00:25:57   their YouTube channels. Can you imagine? Instead of, you know, paying for scripted TV that's behind it,

00:26:03   yeah. So I think it's great, plus I love MKBHD and this series is awesome. MKBHD is great. And I just

00:26:10   want to see him succeed because he's so cool and I'm a big fan of his. And so yeah, it was just

00:26:14   great. I loved the thing because he'd never played a game, he'd never played a Game Boy before,

00:26:20   which is just wild to me. So yeah, I think it's really cool. It's a very, very good,

00:26:25   very good video. Lots of interviews and stuff. It's really well made. And it's kind of funny to

00:26:31   me because I look at it and it's like, I bet they did, YouTube didn't even need to spend that much

00:26:36   money on this because he already has all the setup, right? Sure. He makes these incredibly

00:26:43   well. I'm sure that I would like to think that he got a good deal out of it, but it's not like they

00:26:49   needed to hire a specific crew, I would assume, right? Or like they didn't need to build sets

00:26:55   because he has it all. It's just like, this is what makes sense, right? If you're YouTube,

00:27:00   this is way cheaper than Cobra Kai is, right? And probably is going to do better for you in the long

00:27:06   run. So I'm pleased to see this. This is what it started as. And then YouTube got high on its own

00:27:13   supply and thought that they could be Disney or whatever, right? Like, oh, we'll just pay a bunch

00:27:18   of celebrities to make a bunch of stuff and we'll buy movies. And it didn't work. So I hope that

00:27:23   this will work for them. And this is like a re-scheduling, like a refocusing of what they're

00:27:28   doing in this space. Today's episode is brought to you by Moo, an online print and design company that

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00:29:46   So Jason, last week when we spoke about Guillermo Rambo's leaks about iOS 13, little did we know

00:29:54   on Monday that it was going to start a weeks-long set of stories?

00:30:02   So not to reveal too much behind the curtain, but after our episode dropped, I got a Twitter DM from

00:30:07   someone who is not Guillermo Rambo, who basically said, "Oh, just wait."

00:30:12   I will say, I tip my cap to Guillermo Rambo and 9to5Mac for doing this. I think this was genius.

00:30:26   It would have been very easy for them to write a huge whiz-bang story with a bunch of interesting

00:30:32   layout, and be like, "Oh, look at this. We have all the details." But instead, they have just been

00:30:38   pumping out stories, and it was like, still happy. I think there was still one yesterday. I don't

00:30:43   think there's been anything today. Maybe that's it. Last time I checked. Maybe it's every day

00:30:48   between now and WWDC. I don't know. It's just like a little tidbit. Eventually, they just

00:30:52   start publishing one word a day as we get into June, and then you can just build up to a big

00:30:57   story. So what we're going to do is I want to touch on all of these stories, just so we've got

00:31:02   like a full, complete system. Some of them we're not going to talk about in detail because they're

00:31:06   effectively a week old. You've heard them in other places, but there might be a few things we want to

00:31:10   touch on within them. And then there is some stuff which I don't think either of us have had the

00:31:17   opportunity to talk about at all yet. So I think we're going to go chronologically with these,

00:31:24   and we'll start with a "Find My Friends" revamp. So creating a new app to merge "Find My iPhone"

00:31:30   and "Find My Friends" to put them all into one place. Apple will look to increase the app's

00:31:35   overall functionality. Makes sense, I think, to have all of this stuff in one place. I didn't

00:31:40   realize that it was weird that they weren't until I saw this story. It's like, "Oh, they probably

00:31:44   all should be in the same application." Right? Yeah. Yeah. It always feels weird to me when

00:31:48   we have something that's like, "Where is this particular device located?" And I have to open

00:31:54   "Find My Phone" because I usually, you know, we use "Find Friends" to keep track of like our family

00:32:01   members and other people. But "Find My Friends," there's a primary location device that is attached

00:32:10   to each Apple ID. Whereas "Find My iPhone" is device-based. So one of the things they'll have

00:32:17   to do if they merge these together is kind of create the scenario where you've got like a person

00:32:21   and where they are, and then also like within that where you're, if it's one of your people,

00:32:27   where the devices are. So there's complexity here because they were really made for two

00:32:31   very different reasons, but I agree that it's dumb to have two different things that are doing

00:32:39   largely the same thing with, you know, there's reasons why they are the way they are, but

00:32:43   having it all in one place makes sense because it is very weird. I used "Find My Friends" so

00:32:47   often and it is very strange to be like, "Oh, I need to find where my wife's iPad is." Right?

00:32:54   And that's not her primary location device, so "Find My Friends" isn't going to do it. But

00:32:58   "Find My iPhone," I can find the iPad's location. I can, you know, lock it. I can send, you know,

00:33:04   make it make a loud noise so that we can find it, which is the killer feature there. And so that'll

00:33:10   all have to get kind of like, that'll move together, apparently. But in this report,

00:33:16   it also mentions the possibility of Apple creating a Bluetooth-enabled tracking device like a tile.

00:33:22   So like these are these little, it's a little called tracker. They're like these little things

00:33:26   of basic hearing sides that have got Bluetooth low energy chips in them so you can help find your

00:33:30   devices. So in theory, you could attach the Apple version of this to anything, any product, and then

00:33:37   it would be showing up in this application. Do you think that this is a product that Apple would

00:33:42   actually make? I'm wondering if this code name is referring to an internal device that they have made

00:33:52   to test an API to make available for HomeKit-like devices. Yeah, I, if they're not, I think I said

00:33:59   this on another podcast last week, but forgive me for repeating myself, but if they're not

00:34:05   going to make airport base stations, why are they going to make NFC Bluetooth LE tags, right? Like,

00:34:17   wouldn't it be better to have a certification program and some hardware partners? This makes

00:34:22   a lot of sense as a HomeKit product to me. Right? Like, you would say to companies like Tile,

00:34:28   you can keep doing your thing, but you can also integrate with us now. And then you're going to

00:34:34   have all the features that a HomeKit app, or HomeKit thing would get. But I don't know. I

00:34:40   don't know, for this thing specifically, I don't know exactly what Gee Rambo knows. Right? So like

00:34:47   in the report is the company is working on a new hardware product known only as B389 by the people

00:34:52   involved in its development. But I don't know what that means, right? Like, yeah, they could actually

00:35:00   be working on a new hardware product, but it doesn't mean that it's ever intended to ship

00:35:04   unless he knows that that's the case. But if he does, he does not state that in the article,

00:35:08   right? Like there is no definitive thing of whether this does or does not exist for the public

00:35:13   and/or what the, potentially what it will be for. He references what the product is,

00:35:20   but I can read this in a couple of different ways. It could also be that they, I think two

00:35:25   possibilities here. One is they've got a hardware partner and it's a little bit like how there were

00:35:29   those Logitech things that came out for the smart keyboard on day one. Or the pencil thing, the

00:35:35   crown. Yeah, exactly. So there are companies where Apple has worked with them in advance with

00:35:41   technology, right? Like it's not the case that new tech from Apple is always just unveiled with

00:35:46   nobody knowing about it. That does happen, but it doesn't always happen. And you would expect

00:35:50   Apple has their own hardware team that works on that alongside the external partners as well,

00:35:55   right? I also think that it's not impossible that sometimes, and I don't know this for a fact,

00:36:01   but I'll just throw it out there, that sometimes Apple builds a reference piece of hardware.

00:36:05   It would not surprise me if they handed that to a partner and said, look, we built what we think is

00:36:13   the fundamental hardware for this product. Here, we don't want to make it. You make it.

00:36:20   I don't know whether they like literally hand a product to Logitech and say, if you want to make

00:36:25   this, go ahead, we're not going to make it. Or whether they just say, can you come in and look

00:36:30   at this spec and work with us on something. But the result is very similar, which means that Apple

00:36:36   wouldn't necessarily have to make it if they don't want to be in the business of making this product.

00:36:40   I think the question is, is there a standard here or is this just going to be like, it only works

00:36:45   with Apple products? Because if there's an existing standard, sometimes they could use that and kind

00:36:49   of subvert it. I think Bluetooth, it's using Bluetooth LE, right? Presumably to do all of this.

00:36:53   Yeah. So the other big thing about this is that you remember from like tile and things like that,

00:37:00   like the idea that you want to have it so that if other devices see the ID of the tag,

00:37:07   like if you lose your bag at the airport, but somebody else is there with the tile app or

00:37:12   whatever it is, it can see it. And then it uploads it to the server and says, oh, I saw that thing

00:37:17   here at this time. That's like building this big mesh network, basically. So even though it's like

00:37:22   by Bluetooth, right? In theory, you can still find the device if you're outside of range.

00:37:26   Right. And it still could be privacy because it's like, it's just an ID. I spot it at a place,

00:37:31   it gets uploaded to a server and then only the people with that ID can see that information.

00:37:35   But, you know, if you sell a few thousand of something, that network is super spotty and not

00:37:42   very good. And it's like, you got to be really lucky. But if every iPhone running iOS 13,

00:37:48   a billion, a billion GPS on these things, right? Because the iPhones that have GPS will see them,

00:37:57   log them and send them back and suddenly you'll know where your device is. That's really that

00:38:02   competitive advantage is a reason for them to make it. Right. And it's not a new idea at all,

00:38:07   but it's an idea that works way better if you're Apple than if you're a little scrappy third party.

00:38:12   Yep. Because you would assume these little things start screaming in Bluetooth language to anything

00:38:16   around them. Right. And then it can pass the information back to you somehow like that.

00:38:21   But my gut feeling is that Apple's not going to make this thing, right? Like I just, I feel like,

00:38:25   why would they do it? They'll, they'll, they'll say, Hey, it uses the spec. Here's how you build

00:38:30   these things. Here's our hardware partners. Good luck. That makes way more sense to me, but,

00:38:34   but we'll say, I mean, it's a product that they would easily be able to sell to pretty much every

00:38:38   iPhone owner. I mean, I don't know, right? Like this is, this is that question of like,

00:38:42   is Apple in 2019 exactly the company we think they are because yes, it feels like that they

00:38:47   wouldn't make that, but they also could make that if they wanted to make a bunch of money from

00:38:51   people, I could make the argument that it's primarily a feature to find Apple devices.

00:38:57   And only secondarily, is it a feature for other things? So what they do is they build this thing

00:39:02   and they say, well, look, using all of this tech, including Bluetooth LE on our, you know, on

00:39:08   AirPods and on all of our devices that we make, we have the ability to do this. And if some other

00:39:17   products or whether they're like other products like headphones or whatever, or whether it's a

00:39:22   thing that you stick on something, if they want to follow our rules, it will also work for those

00:39:27   right where the primary goal is to make it better to find your AirPods. But the secondary goal is

00:39:33   you can use this tech with partners to find other things that, that sounds like a way that Apple

00:39:39   might differentiate it and say like, we don't really want to be in the business of selling

00:39:42   little Bluetooth tags and supporting them and all of those things, but we want it for this.

00:39:47   And this enables that. So the other thing was lunar display like functionalities. And it's

00:39:53   the headline, Codename Sidecar, this macOS functionality would allow for a user to be able

00:39:59   to quote, "Send any window of an app to an external display." The external display can be an actual

00:40:06   external display connected to the Mac or even an iPad. So this will be built into existing,

00:40:12   the existing maximize button on macOS, the green one, to basically you would get a new

00:40:16   view to either send an app to full screen to tile it. So you can split it up with other apps on the

00:40:21   Mac or send to an external display. I'm... Lunar display is a thing. Okay, probably should say here,

00:40:30   lunar display, existing sponsor of Relay FM, future sponsor of this show, you know, like just

00:40:35   make that point abundantly clear. I feel like for me, this is an easy way to describe it. I

00:40:42   don't think it's going to be like lunar display. We're like a lunar display is mirroring a display

00:40:46   I don't, it doesn't feel like that to me. To me, this feels like if you make a marzipan app

00:40:50   and you can, it's like beefing up continuity in some way that you can send the window that you're

00:40:57   looking at to another device. But I don't feel like it'd be mirroring it. Like it would, you would

00:41:02   just send it there. I don't know. What do you think? Tell me what you think. So, so the way

00:41:05   lunar display and a lot of these other screen sharing apps work is that they're emulating a

00:41:09   monitor. They're emulating an external display. And so you, you know, like I've got one running

00:41:14   right now actually, and I've got Audio Hijack and Skype on my old iPad. But I've got it on the left

00:41:20   side. I can't put it on the right side because that's where my dock is. And it would affect the

00:41:25   geometry of my, of my desktop setup. And it can't, it can only be in horizontal. It can't be in

00:41:30   vertical because lunar display doesn't support that. There's like all of these little quirks

00:41:34   about it. Some of which are because it's a full-on emulated display. The Mac thinks another display,

00:41:40   hardware display is attached, which is not quite it. So what I, when I look at this, I think,

00:41:45   well, this is interesting because this is maybe what Apple is going to do is take Mac OS and sort

00:41:49   of abstract the concept and potentially iOS too, I will say. Abstract the concept of external view

00:41:58   ports from the base concept of a plugged in external display, or at least change the way

00:42:05   it, it, it handles that stuff. This is sort of how I read this. Like the idea that you're sending

00:42:10   a window, like I can drag a window onto an external display and hit the full screen today.

00:42:16   So I'm sort of viewing this as being something like, yeah, like you said continuity, like

00:42:19   using things like continuity to make it easier in the UI, however, it's implemented behind the

00:42:26   scenes to say, Hey, this audio hijack window, uh, send it over there or this, uh, Photoshop window,

00:42:33   send it to that iPad. And then I can draw on it with my Apple pencil and I'm not running

00:42:37   Photoshop on the iPad. I'm running it on the Mac. And that's what Luna display was built for. Right.

00:42:41   Is it's built out of a company that was the whole idea there was to make, uh, you know,

00:42:46   use these great high resolution touch devices with stylus support functional with Mac software. So

00:42:54   it feels like, you know, maybe that's what it's going to is just like, how can we make this

00:42:59   experience better with external devices with the idea being that an iPad could make a great

00:43:06   companion for a Mac, but right now it's a mess because you have to add third party software and

00:43:13   sometimes hardware. And, you know, then you're in this situation where the Mac thinks it's a

00:43:17   whole monitor, which is probably not the fundamental use case where you just want to send a window.

00:43:22   So, I mean, we'll see the devil's in the details here, but it sounds like what bottom line is Apple

00:43:28   is trying to make an effort to make it easier to push bits of the Mac out onto external displays,

00:43:36   including iPads. And that I think is great. No, I do too. Also from a, um,

00:43:40   Sherlocking standpoint, I w I wanted to mention, um, a lot of people are like, oh, watch out Luna

00:43:45   display. And it's like, I don't know, you know, the history of Apple doing features like this is

00:43:48   that they, they have a core feature that they want to hit that they think will appeal to a larger

00:43:52   mass of people. And then everybody else who has particular needs will be dissatisfied with it and

00:43:57   we'll go on using third party versions like that. That seems to be what always happens.

00:44:02   And in my mind, it's like one of the key differences is I expect you would be using it

00:44:08   like an app at a time from Apple's feature where on Luna display, you could just make it look like

00:44:13   a completely external display. I would be surprised to see Apple be like your iPad is now just an

00:44:18   external display for your Mac. Cause I feel like from Apple's perspective, they may consider that

00:44:23   of like devaluing the iPad. Right. But you can send a document or, or an app or to it also.

00:44:30   And I mentioned this when I said maybe from iOS too, and this came up in the chat room as well,

00:44:34   like the logical extension of this, and this isn't in gear Rambo's report. So maybe it's something

00:44:39   that doesn't happen for a while yet. But if you think about somebody like Federico,

00:44:44   Patice, who has that 4k display that he attaches his iPad to this tech would work on the iPad

00:44:50   theoretically to the idea that you could take an app and say, put that over on that screen,

00:44:56   which is weird and not, you know, if it's not a touch screen, there's questions about like how

00:45:00   that would be supported. Although there might be some answers there, but it's possible that you

00:45:05   could get something beyond mirroring from iOS as well. Or even if you've got two iPads, I don't

00:45:11   know. Right. Like why would you do that? I don't know. I'm just throwing out there that this might

00:45:16   everything, every Mac feature we hear about now, I feel like we have to say, this has gotta be the

00:45:20   equivalent of an iOS feature down the road because that is where Apple's coming with this.

00:45:24   And the idea of sending things to different screens and stuff, it actually lends into

00:45:29   something that Federico spoke about on connected last week, which is that he had heard that

00:45:35   Apple is looking to potentially bring some way to support mice input, like cursor input on iOS.

00:45:43   And that there's been some evidence of this. There are actually some devices, some accessibility

00:45:47   devices that can already do it, but making this basically available to anyone. If you can connect

00:45:51   a mouse that ties in here, right? Like imagine if you would send your iPad screen to an external

00:45:58   display more easily, you should be using a mouse. I've seen Federico use, he sent me videos and

00:46:04   stuff, and he's put these in articles of him using his iPad with the external display support that it

00:46:09   has. And it doesn't seem like, for me, you're still having to look down at the display.

00:46:13   - Yeah. You can write on it, but then the moment you need to interact, you have to interact with

00:46:18   the iPad laying in front of you instead of the screen that you've been looking at all along.

00:46:22   And yeah, Federico, that was a nice little bit of knowledge that he dropped after kind of holding

00:46:28   it in reserve for a while. The idea that it might be an accessibility feature, which would be,

00:46:33   I've said all along, the people who want this really want it, and you don't have to force it

00:46:38   on anyone else. And I don't think Apple ever would be like, "Well, we've got mouse support,

00:46:41   so now everybody must use a mouse." That's not gonna happen. So one of the great ways to do it

00:46:45   is to say, "Well, there's an accessibility feature, and if you plug in a mouse, you'll

00:46:51   get a little prompt that says, 'Do you want to turn on this feature?' But nobody's gonna use it,

00:46:55   or most people aren't gonna use it." And everybody else will be like, "I'm turning that on right now,

00:46:59   the people who care." And it's fine. Having it be not the default and that you have to flip a switch

00:47:04   to make it work. I think everybody who's ever said, "I want external device pointing device

00:47:08   support," is happy to flip a switch in setting somewhere to do it. Like, it doesn't need to be

00:47:15   something that everybody is given as a default. It just needs to be available. And then, yes,

00:47:22   then you send things to a big screen, you attach a big screen to an iPad, and you can have that

00:47:29   context switch. Plus, if this feature were there, you could still have a little, like, have your

00:47:33   Twitter on your iPad, and then have the thing you're working on on your 4K display, and that

00:47:40   would actually work, which is fascinating. So, we'll see. Strange times. Apple Watch authentication

00:47:47   enhancements. There aren't too many details in this report other than to say that you'll be able

00:47:52   to do more with the authentication of the Apple Watch on your Mac. It's referred to as other

00:47:57   functions. I kind of wanted to ask you, Jason, if you, from your knowledge of if you use this,

00:48:03   and I saw that on Six Colors you were saying that you do use this feature. Where is it lacking that

00:48:08   Touch ID can currently do? And, like, do you imagine Apple bringing those two things closer

00:48:14   together? I think the way to think of it is where does Touch ID work now if you've got a laptop with

00:48:19   Touch ID? Because I don't. Well, I do. There are a couple MacBook Airs in the house, and Lauren uses

00:48:26   hers, and the other one I use, and the kids use a little bit, and Touch ID is great, right? Touch ID

00:48:32   is the best. And I think it gets lost with — Touch ID kind of came out at the same time that people

00:48:36   were getting the new keyboard, and they were getting the Touch Bar, and those were both very

00:48:39   controversial. But Touch ID on the Mac, it's great. It could be better, but it's great that

00:48:44   it's there. I love being on MacBook Air and going to 1Password and just using my finger, right? Like,

00:48:51   all that biometric authentication stuff is great. But on desktop Macs or Macs that don't have Touch

00:48:58   ID, it's, you know, it's not that great. But I can use my watch to do Apple Pay and to wake my

00:49:05   iMac from sleep without a password. So there's a little bit there, but what it doesn't do is

00:49:10   extend to all the things that Touch ID can do. So the way I read this report is, well, what if

00:49:15   there was an alternative authentication mechanism? What if the Apple Watch stuff and the Touch ID

00:49:20   stuff were maybe, like, put together on the Mac where there's just biometric authentication?

00:49:25   And you can do it with Touch ID sensor, or you can do it with your Apple Watch. So on my iMac Pro,

00:49:31   I would say 99% of the time when I wake up my iMac Pro, you know, from sleep or from screen lock,

00:49:39   you know, my watch just taps me and it's open. It's great. Apple Pay is less reliable. Sometimes

00:49:47   I authenticate by double tapping on my watch and it sits there for a very long time and then gives

00:49:52   up. Other times it doesn't even try and it says, "I'm going to need your iPhone," which is hilarious

00:49:57   because it's not even in the room with me and I have to go get it and bring it back. It's like,

00:49:59   "Well, this is super convenient." So there's some work to be done there, but I would love it if

00:50:05   every time I unlocked one password on my iMac, it knew that I was wearing my watch and it was

00:50:11   unlocked and it just unlocked one password and gave me a tap, like when I wake up my screen.

00:50:17   That would be amazing. And if I need to double tap or something like that on the watch,

00:50:21   that would still be better than typing my password every time. Not as good as laying my finger on the

00:50:25   keyboard, but pretty good. And since there are lots of Macs that have external keyboards and

00:50:32   things, and there is no face ID for the Mac, and lots of us don't have touch ID Macs, this is

00:50:39   a very smart way to add some more biometric stuff to the Mac.

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00:52:09   of this show and Relay FM. And now back to Rambo time.

00:52:18   More iOS features coming to the Mac including Screen Time. Welcome feature for me. I would love

00:52:25   to have access to the full picture. I like Screen Time on iOS but it doesn't give me everything I

00:52:30   want to know. I'm hoping that the Mac version will be able to do this but I am concerned that it

00:52:36   won't be able to track everything. I don't know. I mean this yeah this is a question. I would I

00:52:42   would hope that it would but it goes back to what I said earlier which is I think what we'll get

00:52:48   is something that is basic tracking and that if you want more you should still use a time

00:52:54   tracking app. We've had one that timing that has sponsored this show in the past but you know

00:53:00   there it's always going to be the case that Apple is going to try to give you you know they're going

00:53:05   to bite off a certain chunk and they're going to say this is what we care about and there will be

00:53:08   lots of things at the edge so maybe it doesn't measure which websites you go to or whatever but

00:53:14   it says you're in safari but being able to run all that stuff together because I spend so much time

00:53:18   on my Mac during the day and so my screen time really doesn't reflect my device use it only

00:53:22   reflects my iOS device use so having it be part of the pool and being able to see that as part of the

00:53:27   the big picture I think that's great. It would also bring app limits which is a funny thing for

00:53:33   me to think about like app limits on the Mac but I guess it's because I don't use the Mac for apps

00:53:38   that I would want to limit right but other people do. Parental controls on the Mac are terrible.

00:53:43   They are so much better on iOS and so what I'm hoping this might mean is that the parental control

00:53:47   stuff is going to get better because they'll have to implement screen time which means they're then

00:53:51   going to have to implement a more granular parental control system so it would be because

00:53:56   that's what I have for my kids is I have a you know I have a bunch of things and I can administer

00:54:00   them all remotely from my iOS device which is another thing that you can't really do on the Mac.

00:54:04   You got to be on the Mac and with your administrator password so I have my kids with like

00:54:11   you know you can't use your device in the middle of the night you need to go to bed and then you

00:54:16   can't use your device first thing you know if you wake up a little bit early you need to know just

00:54:20   sleep you need to sleep and then I will send some time limits on some of the apps that they use

00:54:25   and you know on the Mac like my son also has a MacBook Air and it has it has the basic limits

00:54:32   of saying after a certain time you need to not use the computer anymore but that's about it so

00:54:38   this could mean if it's implemented the way it is on iOS it will mean much better parental control

00:54:44   features for the Mac and that's great. But then I also think of Marco's app Quitter right like

00:54:49   there are people like he thought about this for himself on his on his Mac a while ago of closing

00:54:53   down apps that he was wasting time on but it's just so like people do feel like they would also

00:54:58   need this the same as screen time on iOS it's just it doesn't match with my brain because I don't

00:55:03   ever really feel like I'm wasting time on my Mac like when I'm at the Mac serious stuff is happening.

00:55:08   But there's a lot of yeah there's a lot of people who do like distraction based stuff so being able

00:55:12   to say like during a certain time don't let me access Twitter or something because I need to be

00:55:16   writing or something like that either. There are those whole apps that like turn off your networking

00:55:20   so that you have to you have to just focus on your job so I think people could use it and it would be

00:55:26   great because the the options on the Mac right now are limited. Siri shortcuts this is difficult

00:55:31   this one's very complex all right so let's let's see if we can try going on I wrote a post that

00:55:37   parsed it and then Dr. Drang wrote a post that parsed my post that parsed it. Everyone's trying

00:55:40   to parse it everyone's passing so let me try and parse it. So Guy's report says that according to

00:55:45   his sources there is a likelihood of the shortcuts app making its way to Mac OS as there is a strong

00:55:50   suggestion of Siri shortcut actions making their way into Mac OS themselves. So this is the idea of

00:55:57   like you would be able to ask Siri to I don't know use like we could set up a shortcut to open a

00:56:03   specific find my friends window or whatever right you can get those like one little actions that the

00:56:07   system recommends to you or you can create them yourself or you know you have an app like for

00:56:11   example with Overcast right so Mark was just talking about Marco so with Overcast I have some

00:56:15   Siri shortcuts set up on my iPhone so I can say hi telephone resume Overcast and it will do that

00:56:21   right like and because it's just like a one thing I haven't built that with the shortcuts app this is

00:56:26   just something the system can do. So it is again we're not 100% sure how much information is known

00:56:34   how much information is being extrapolated but I think what's going on is the idea is like if

00:56:39   Siri shortcuts exist on the Mac then surely shortcuts will come too. Yeah it it may be a

00:56:46   matter of time but there's this lack of clarity about Siri shortcuts versus the shortcuts app

00:56:51   because yeah the report basically says Siri shortcuts will come and presumably shortcuts

00:56:57   may come or something like that I was like okay and then details about how how shortcuts will work

00:57:01   and it's like do you mean Siri shortcuts because it says shortcuts will only work with marzipan

00:57:05   apps I was like do you mean Siri shortcuts do you mean the shortcuts app surely there will be a

00:57:10   shortcuts app at some point or will Siri shortcuts on the Mac let you launch services because or

00:57:17   whatever they're called now I forget they changed the name of them but they they added those things

00:57:22   that are still in the services folder but they changed the name in Mojave that's a possibility

00:57:27   right it's a possibility that they could bring the shortcuts app to the Mac it's also a possibility

00:57:32   that they could not bring the shortcuts app to the Mac and just attach Siri shortcuts to services

00:57:36   which you can build in Automator which they did it sounds I know it sounds weird like why would they

00:57:41   dust off Automator which has been largely untouched but if you look back at Mojave the one thing that

00:57:47   they've done in the last few years with automation on the Mac was to brush off that whole services

00:57:53   idea and use it and and you could like put it in the touch bar and you can put it in the finder

00:58:00   and it's this whole new way of of accessing the stuff that's been on the Mac since the very

00:58:06   beginning and so it just occurs to me it's possible that they could do something like

00:58:12   that where they're like well we got Siri shortcuts on the Mac but they're not really the same as iOS

00:58:16   they're just letting you use that the the Automator stuff that they that they did I hope

00:58:23   that what we see at least at some point is a new version of shortcuts for the Mac because

00:58:29   you get that sync between iOS and Mac in terms of you know even if the shortcuts don't all work the

00:58:34   same way that you have the same app on both and that you learn it on one and you can kind of

00:58:38   figure it out on the other and then you can basically build an Automator replacement on the Mac

00:58:44   by using shortcuts. Also the report of marzipan apps only is really disturbing to me because if

00:58:54   it's accurate what you're going to have is like two totally different classes of app on the Mac

00:58:59   that can do different things and are are controlled in different ways and as Dr. Dren pointed out in

00:59:04   his blog post what if you rely on standard automation for a Mac app and then the new

00:59:09   version of Mac OS uses a marzipan app instead and all your automation breaks and you can't have

00:59:14   access to it anymore because marzipan doesn't do that that's also a concern although my gut reaction

00:59:20   to reading the story was well you say marzipan only surely part of what Apple would do is say

00:59:26   to classic Mac app developers here's how you implement this. Yes it is the assumption it is

00:59:34   an assumption to make that an application that uses this technology has to be an iOS app through

00:59:43   and through like that it I don't think it would be impossible to assume that this is a like a

00:59:49   selection of APIs that people could kind of use and you could be a more classic Mac app and still

00:59:56   use some of this functionality in some way that doesn't seem impossible to me. Right I mean this

01:00:00   is this is how it's worked for years on the Mac is there have been new APIs that old apps have been

01:00:06   able to take advantage of and it basically is like yeah you're going to have to learn how to do this

01:00:11   thing that requires you know things that are iOS based or marzipan based in some way and put them

01:00:16   in your Mac app but ideally you would be able to do that because you you'd want you know I would

01:00:21   be okay with the idea that like you don't pick it up for free if you want to do this because that

01:00:26   happened in the Mac OS 10 transition it happened this has happened before where you're like all

01:00:31   right you're gonna have to learn something new to get this new feature. Yeah like if you want to stay

01:00:35   in in the app kit style you want to stay as a regular Mac app you can integrate with some of

01:00:40   the stuff but it's not going to be as easy if you're bringing over an iOS app right like bring

01:00:44   over an iOS app iOS app a lot of this stuff is just ready to go for you. Yeah you get it for free

01:00:48   but a Mac app you need to add the this iOS thing to your Mac app and then it will just work and

01:00:54   and that that's really a writing on writings on the wall moment for Mac developers right which is

01:00:59   hey we're bringing new features to Mac OS they will require you to write things that are basically

01:01:05   iOS APIs that you will now need to support because guess what now they're Mac APIs too but that's the

01:01:10   way I would imagine that that's the way that Apple will pitch it is this is a new API for Mac OS and

01:01:15   and marzipan apps get it for free but you can get it by doing this thing and not saying sorry

01:01:21   Mac developers you don't get this new basic core system functionality that seems weird so I'm gonna

01:01:28   I'm gonna be optimistic about that by the way the name of the the automator thing that I was

01:01:31   mentioning it's called quick actions they renamed it in Mojave quick actions it appears in preview

01:01:36   it appears in the finder it appears on the touch bar so that was one thought I had is what if they

01:01:41   don't bring shortcuts to the Mac yet but they want to do Siri shortcuts equivalents on the Mac and

01:01:46   what they do is they trigger it all off of quick actions and then or quick actions plus apps will

01:01:53   have registered like they do on iOS and those will come over there are some different ways that they

01:01:58   could do that so it's all what I'm saying is it's kind of a mess because you've got the old way of

01:02:04   doing automation on the Mac and then you've got a potentially new way of doing automation on the Mac

01:02:09   and they don't really connect now Siri doesn't do quick actions on the Mac even now which is weird

01:02:17   so they gotta they gotta clean this up and my gut feeling is it's not gonna happen this year right

01:02:24   my gut feeling is that they may do some stuff this year to get them in going in the right direction

01:02:28   but it's probably a multi-year process of basically sort of saying Apple script,

01:02:34   automator that's all kind of like going away and shortcuts is coming in and we're going to use

01:02:39   shortcuts for everything and you know if you're an old Mac app that's sticking around you need

01:02:44   to support shortcuts which works this way and that you know over the course of two or three years

01:02:49   all the old stuff is going to get deprecated and at that point my only request and this is

01:02:53   something that Dr. Drang brought up too is on the Mac you have this incredible power of going to

01:02:59   Apple script or JavaScript or to running shell scripts and most of my shortcuts that I've wired

01:03:06   up on my Mac that save huge amounts of time for me are some combination of shell script or Apple

01:03:12   script sometimes embedded in automator and kicking off those quick actions those services so what

01:03:21   happens there on the Mac does does does shortcuts get more capable on the Mac or is this a way for

01:03:28   Apple to kind of like pull some power user automation out of the system I don't know I hope not.

01:03:33   In my mind in my dream scenario here shortcuts the shortcuts app could be like a poster child

01:03:42   for what I consider the perfect way that marzipan will work in that for shortcuts to exist on the

01:03:51   Mac it has to bring with it a lot of iOS conventions and a lot of iOS things so like for

01:03:57   shortcuts to exist if Apple want that to occur they have to bring Siri shortcuts to the Mac

01:04:02   right which makes the Mac better because now the Mac has more functionality Siri becomes more of a

01:04:08   level playing field amongst devices right and also by bringing shortcuts it can enable more

01:04:13   automation which will be easier for more people because most people like myself find the existing

01:04:18   ways of automation on the Mac to be much more complicated and harder to understand for sure

01:04:22   but in wanting to make shortcuts truly useful on the Mac they have to integrate with a lot of Mac

01:04:32   like stuff which then if you make shortcuts that powerful on the Mac some of that power can find

01:04:38   its way back to iOS right so like that's why I think of it of like an app like shortcuts could

01:04:44   really be the perfect example of what we want this project to be where it makes both systems better

01:04:50   now I know that I am drawing a real dream scenario here but that is my dream scenario well the way I

01:04:56   have thought about it is what would happen if shortcuts was on the Mac I think the way it would

01:05:00   be built is something like because the question is like well how can you do shell script if iOS

01:05:08   doesn't have a shell and the answer is you make do shell script something that is tied to the

01:05:13   terminal app and the terminal app because the way shortcuts works even now is if you don't have the

01:05:18   right apps you can't do those things so some apps are only on the Mac and so some functionality will

01:05:25   only be on the Mac and I'm okay with that right like I'd love there I'd love to be able to run

01:05:29   shell scripts on iOS don't get me wrong but lacking that that would be the the next best

01:05:37   thing is just just let the Mac users do that stuff and and go to town with it and then they would

01:05:43   just not work those those workflows those shortcuts would not work on iOS and that's

01:05:48   that's fine but you're right a lot of what we talk about about iOS infiltrating the Mac and changing

01:05:52   it is funny from the perspective of somebody who uses iOS for so much stuff now because I view it

01:05:58   the other way too which is some of this stuff is like the Mac is so much more demanding and the

01:06:04   users require so much more and as an iPad enthusiast I look at that and I'm like this is great

01:06:12   because this forces Apple you know in bringing this stuff over to do a far better job with real

01:06:20   important features that they've kind of done halfway or if at all on the iPad and presumably

01:06:29   a lot of that stuff gets reflected onto the iPad too which means as I said I think last week

01:06:35   I really am loving this idea that there's this virtuous cycle that nobody really wants to write

01:06:42   a pro app for the iPad because there are only so many iPad users and nobody wants to write a brand

01:06:48   new pro app for the Mac because there's only so many Mac users but now I could write one app

01:06:55   and iPad users and Mac users both get it and it's like you know that is you're doubling the

01:07:02   addressable market of iPad and Mac users when you do that and so I think that's the other that's the

01:07:09   other fun thing is that this is not a lot of Mac users like oh boy they're gonna ruin the Mac

01:07:14   by making it like iOS and I think well it's gonna be different but you know what else is gonna happen

01:07:19   is that the Mac is gonna have an influence exerted on iOS it's going to exert its influence back I

01:07:26   think which is the thing that excites me the most this was I remember sitting in a hotel room at

01:07:32   WWDC last year looking into your eyes and saying I'm so excited for what might happen to the iPad

01:07:40   because of this like that's the thing that's always made me so excited for my iPad to get

01:07:45   more Mac like like so iOS becomes more powerful and I think it's good for the Mac I agree with

01:07:51   you like I think over here on upgrade we are big proponents of the best timeline of this of like

01:07:56   that it will actually be ultimately good for everything but time will tell and the final

01:08:03   report as of pub as of our recording time right now oh boy is some information for developers

01:08:08   so new Siri intents including media playback search voice calling event ticketing message

01:08:14   attachment and travel information so these will be things that developers can plug into

01:08:18   to be more attached into Siri I don't know what this is going to mean yet like media playback

01:08:25   does that mean that Spotify will get what they want like maybe we don't know and this is the

01:08:29   thing where like I don't even really want to talk about this so much because Siri intents I think

01:08:33   have been mostly disappointing so far like so media playback and search what what this reads

01:08:38   to me and again we we are often guilty of sort of like taking the optimist view here but what

01:08:43   media playback and search imply to me is a dictionary that is broader than what is resident

01:08:52   on the device right yeah like one of the things about this has always been like well how could you

01:08:57   really do a Spotify um control because they don't have access to like your catalog and so everything

01:09:05   is going to have to go to the cloud and be interpreted and you know it doesn't know the

01:09:10   names of all the musical artists and so what's going to happen and like search is the same way

01:09:14   right like search is arbitrary string of text and then you kind of like send it out there so

01:09:20   I look at this and I think yeah maybe maybe this is Apple saying we're gonna open this up now where

01:09:26   we're not worried anymore about having to you know pre-load a universe of of text like our

01:09:34   our text recognition engine is much better now and just throw anything at it and we'll search for it

01:09:39   or we'll play back that music and you know we're because I do think that was part of their reluctance

01:09:45   to open this stuff up was just a reluctance that it would be able to figure out what you were saying

01:09:50   and maybe they're over it I mean they should have been over it years ago but maybe they're over it

01:09:54   now some information about marzipan so there will be apis for the touch bar the menu bar and

01:10:00   keyboard shortcuts so you're bringing over an ios app there will be apis to to plug into all of that

01:10:06   which is brilliant um multiple windows on the mac so this adds to the idea of everything that's

01:10:12   come before you know like what we were talking about last week there's multiple instances on the

01:10:16   ipad the fact that you will have apis on multiple windows on the mac probably means if you have

01:10:21   multiple windows on ios as well right right apps that use split view multitasking can be resized

01:10:28   this is interesting to me jason because if this is the case why is there this whole thing that

01:10:35   mark german was talking about about iphone apps coming next year if you can run these apps in

01:10:41   skinny size which is what we're expecting here like you would you'd be able to like just

01:10:46   drag the the window and make it smaller so it would be effectively iphone column size here is

01:10:51   the reason the reason is that if you're an iphone only app you don't have the capability to go up

01:10:57   to a bigger size well yeah i guess i'm thinking of it from the wrong side aren't i right it wants the

01:11:01   it wants only apps that are like resizable which means they need to be on the ipad and they need

01:11:07   to work in all the different views if you're just a single thing what they don't want and i'm gonna

01:11:12   i'm gonna pull a john syracusea here and throw out some old mac knowledges what they don't want are

01:11:16   desk accessories das which was the thing that we had back in the old mac days which were little

01:11:20   tiny apps like the calculator was a da and you you launched them from the apple menu and there were

01:11:25   these teeny tiny little windows and they were single window apps they were they were iphone

01:11:31   apps before there was an iphone by decades and that's what iphone apps would look like they'd be

01:11:36   unreseizable little tiny things on a mac screen and i feel like maybe this is not a technical

01:11:44   limitation but it's apple kind of saying that's not a good experience on the mac to have a non-

01:11:50   resizable phone-shaped window and so if you want to be on the mac you're going to need to do

01:11:56   better than that and then maybe we'll give you what you want next year but for now you aren't

01:12:01   going to get it so that's that's my guess is that they this is all about apps that are capable of

01:12:07   resizing dynamically and then on the mac logically you'll resize your window hey look it resizes

01:12:13   dynamically because it's made to do that quote from the article enabling mac support for an

01:12:18   existing ios app is as easy as enabling a checkbox and target settings in xcode much as you would to

01:12:24   add ipad support to an iphone only app yeah i i we've seen some developers who've basically said

01:12:29   this makes sense because first off you already are building intel versions of these apps because

01:12:35   those are what the simulator builds are and if marzipan is all you know the whole idea marzipan

01:12:41   is you're not supposed to have to change your code very much now this is not the same as saying you

01:12:45   don't need to design it you need to design it all these ways that you can make it a better mac app

01:12:50   but imagine that demo at wwdc maybe in the keynote maybe in the state of the union where they take an

01:12:58   ios app in xcode and check a box and run it and it runs and it looks fine and then definitely in

01:13:05   the state of the union and in follow-up sessions they'll say all right here's all the things you

01:13:10   have to do that's great it's better but please don't do that right right but it's like that's

01:13:15   the start is to get over the hump you don't have to change 20 of your code you check this box and

01:13:22   you're running on the mac but you can be a lot better and pick up all these features that by

01:13:27   the way are also in ios 13 on the ipad by doing this and then that's the next step i think that's

01:13:33   that feels like a hundred percent certainty to me that that's what they're gonna do

01:13:37   because it makes so much sense like you can check the box and get something really weird and generic

01:13:42   but it's fine and it runs and then let me show you all the ways that you can make this better

01:13:46   and some notes on ar quote brand new swift only framework for ar and a companion app that lets

01:13:53   developers create ar experiences visually so this feels like some kind of like

01:13:59   uh i don't when i when i look at this i'm like oh that sounds like playgrounds

01:14:05   like yeah playgrounds sure but for ar so like you can create a visual experience and then you can

01:14:12   have it into the real world so maybe it's a like a toolkit like that like playgrounds is um ar kit

01:14:17   will be enhanced to detect human poses this is interesting to me i don't 100 know what we would

01:14:24   do with that but like maybe that you would be able to project something onto someone which is kind of

01:14:29   an interesting yeah could be or or have people have people play a game in part by you know moving

01:14:35   i don't know support for controllers of touch pads will be added uh this definitely means more than

01:14:41   just for ar i'm not really sure why this is in the ar section um this sounds like something that

01:14:46   they're going to need for some of the games that they showed off with apple arcade but like you

01:14:50   might need to have some touch support especially if you want to play some of these games on apple tv

01:14:54   um could mean new remote right but also if you're thinking about vr you do need a the idea of you

01:15:02   do you need a controller to like move and stuff sometimes right but there already are controllers

01:15:07   they don't necessarily need touch pads like the touchpad thing is is an interesting addition um

01:15:13   but yeah the report also references stereo ar headsets i do not know what they are yeah somebody

01:15:20   was like oh well apple ar headset confirmed right and my thought is well it could be that apple is

01:15:27   going to make a developer ar headset you know something that's expensive and it's for developers

01:15:34   and it's to for them to uh to build the next generation of augmented reality um it's also

01:15:41   i think most likely that they're talking about uh some and i don't know this market enough to say

01:15:46   but like some third-party headset basically that i guess what stereo means is stereoscopic right

01:15:53   so like yeah right no it's it's it's it's depth you're you've got a different slightly different

01:15:57   image in the left and the right and it gives you depth perception and that's what it's talking

01:16:01   about here but like ar headsets like is that an apple ar headset that they're going to work on

01:16:06   that seems premature as possible but it seems more likely that what they would do is say hey we now

01:16:11   have support for these stereo ar headsets and uh here's what they are here's here's uh the third

01:16:17   parties that that have this so that's it we're all up to date is that all stuff there's a lot of

01:16:24   stuff i mean i again i will uh tip my cap to gee rambo for this mammoth amount of information

01:16:36   huge data dump like from somewhere from somewhere it's come from somewhere um it's definite i mean

01:16:44   i feel like we spoke about this last week too but like i feel like especially as the week has gone

01:16:48   on this definitely feels like a combination between people and actual information um so

01:16:56   i'm really but i think that the uh he has reported on this in a very clear and concise way and i like

01:17:04   the way that it's been broken out um it's made it exciting you know made it it was it was you know

01:17:09   it's kind of like when apple releasing products every day for a week until they stopped um i like

01:17:13   that uh nine to five mac went further they they did a whole six seven releases so really it's

01:17:20   like a really great uh way to get this information out and i am super intrigued to see just how much

01:17:29   he got right yeah yeah it feels like a really accurate thing but of course it's also april

01:17:36   and this is going to happen in june that the announcements are going to be made and so stuff

01:17:40   can drop out stuff can get knocked out as a part of the development process so that may happen with

01:17:45   some of this stuff but it is one of the things i like about this we've been talking about this

01:17:48   from a few different angles over the last year and the more information we get the more it becomes

01:17:54   clear that this is not a mac strategy this is not an ios strategy this is an apple strategy apple is

01:18:01   trying to build uh changes to how apps are built that will benefit the mac and ios it's it's one

01:18:09   story and the windowing is a good example of that where it's like well you can build windows in your

01:18:13   ios apps when they're on the mac but also you can do this on ios that's different but it's the same

01:18:19   you know that kind of thing is happening now where this is one story it's not two stories

01:18:22   are you getting it yet yeah this is one story yeah today's show is brought to you by toffee

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01:20:00   and we'll see you next time. Should we do some hashtag ask upgrade questions? Sure I've got more lasers. This comes from sm there are tons of movie and tv streaming services that are looking to launch over the next 12 months in five years time which of them do you think will still be around or which do you think will be the top two in terms of subscribers oh wow uh top two i well top two i think it's it'll be netflix and uh amazon oh no amazon yeah amazon i think there's huge

01:20:30   numbers of prime users right like a huge percentage of the united states has prime so i think they that counts oh yeah i don't know i don't know if the top two in terms of subscribers of the things that are going to launch um disney is number one like of the new stuff disney will be the biggest in terms of just that it's disney they also just have an incredible amount of content right like like they have done a lot of work

01:20:55   by buying all the all the shows uh to make it work for them and it's stuff people actually want to see as well right like it's not just oh they have so much stuff like but it's so much good stuff and out of the um others that have that are uh launching over the next 12 months i think number two i'm gonna say will be the warner media streaming service because they're gonna roll together all the stuff that they own and they own a lot of stuff including hbo including dc comics they'll do some original harry potter this is yeah right i mean harry potter tv show make it happen

01:21:25   batman like another straight up batman tv show don't hold don't get coy and hold batman back for the movies and make these like titans and gotham where it's like it's almost batman but it's not really batman like no just do it it's time just do a batman tv show and you know get get get do a superman tv show like get all of your intellectual property and bring it to bear and they have so much of it they're not disney but i think that warner media with their new hires with the changes they're making it's going to take them a little time but i think they're coming to play and so i think they're gonna they're gonna be

01:21:54   um fairly successful of the of the new ones i think but disney clearly uh will be the most of the new ones i didn't mention apple yes unknown right uh not in the top two that's what i'm gonna say we'll see uh sakaris asks can we get an update on hashtag rumba life are you both still satisfied customers i am i my rumba runs most every day and uh only occasionally sends an alert that it's eaten something or stuck on a cliff still my favorite jamie said uh

01:22:24   jamie said your robot ate my shoes it's true it's wound up one of her uh one of her shoelaces because

01:22:30   i guess she took her shoes off after i had cleared the area because that's the thing that i try to do

01:22:34   is clear the area you gotta make the pants of uh of the rumba launching but the wedges in the doors

01:22:40   pick up the rugs you know i got my little yeah i got my little uh my little beam that i put in

01:22:45   the hallway so that it doesn't go past a certain point or i close certain doors and uh and get the

01:22:51   the house ready but you know it fills up that little dirt container with just huge amounts

01:22:56   of dust and and pet hair and stuff like that every time and so it you know it's not just a noise maker

01:23:04   that roams around my house and disturbs the dog and the cat it is actually doing something and so uh

01:23:12   i think it's great i wish when this one dies i will i will seriously consider upgrading to one

01:23:17   of the ones that like completely maps your house because i can see the appeal of saying hey uh

01:23:23   rumba go clean the hallway uh and have it just pop off its perch and go where it needs to go

01:23:30   and run there and then go back home i i can see the appeal of that but as a first like it's like

01:23:35   this is a nice bookend for the electric car thing like i got a starter rumba it's good i like it and

01:23:40   same for you same for you oh 100 we love our rumba uh we use it all the time and you know

01:23:47   it's an it's a real nice to have it is not an essential thing in a home but it is a real nice

01:23:52   to have it is a is a lovely luxury well i'm just not sweeping the floors every day and i'm sure

01:23:57   if i swept the floors and vacuumed the rugs every day i wouldn't need it but i do not do that so and

01:24:03   and i am here when the rest of my family is not so even though i have it on a schedule that one

01:24:09   of the nice things is i can go out there sort of before or after lunch and i can move all the stuff

01:24:13   move all the stuff around and sometimes i even just press the button right then and run it because

01:24:17   i'm out here it's in there with nobody but the dog and the cat who are not thrilled but they have

01:24:21   learned to deal and it does its work and the house is cleaner so it's good uh john asks what do you

01:24:27   use to make the robot unlock theme music jason this is not john seracusa robot or not we've been

01:24:34   going through a lot of themes that are by listeners so i don't know they send in weird robot or not

01:24:39   music and we use it the original theme and the end theme are by lex friedman i think he did it all in

01:24:44   garage band i did a theme a few weeks ago that i did and i used logic for it but it's it's from

01:24:51   all over the place but i i'm pretty sure that lex's version is just garage band and finally today phil

01:24:57   asks now that it's basically on all of the ipads do you think that apple will bring some version

01:25:01   of pencil support to the iphone i don't i don't because i think that they brought it to all the

01:25:08   ipads and that apple is considering the pencil and ipad differentiator it would require them i think

01:25:15   to design a new pencil which they've already done that is not as long because that long pencil is

01:25:21   kind of really awkward to use with a i would think with a small phone so i think i'm gonna we we we

01:25:26   expressed our hopes about this a while ago but i think i'm gonna i'm gonna change now having seen

01:25:30   what apple has done with the ipad line that actually makes me think it's less likely that

01:25:33   it'll come to the iphone i'm still holding out hope not based on any reason that i think it will

01:25:38   happen just because i want it just for hope yeah all right for hope for hope for hope's sake you

01:25:42   know that'd be cool that'd be cool it's all there they could do it they could do it and like we said

01:25:46   about adding a mouse to ios like it doesn't have to be a mainstream feature it can be something

01:25:51   that the the people who really really want it you give it to them the software is there

01:25:55   on on ios already because it's there for the ipad so you could put it in there and not have it be

01:26:01   you know a banner feature but like yes if you have an apple pencil you can use it with the iphone too

01:26:05   that's fine i i think they could do it but i don't know my guess now is no all right that's it for

01:26:12   this week's episode of upgrade i would like to extend my thanks to gamy rambo for filling up

01:26:17   an entire episode for us much appreciate special guest gee rambo uh thanks so much to text expand

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01:26:26   about today's show over at relay.fm upgrade slash 242 you can find jason online at sixcolors.com

01:26:33   and the incomparable.com jason is the host of many relay fm shows like me you go to relay.fm

01:26:39   shows and find the stuff that myself jason and many other talented individuals put together

01:26:44   on a weekly basis for your podcast listening enjoyment we'll be back next time until then

01:26:51   follow jason online at twitter on twitter at jasonl at j s n e double l i am at i mike i m y k e

01:26:59   but we'll be back next week hashtag ask upgrade for questions at the end hashtag snow talk for

01:27:05   questions at the beginning until next time jason say goodbye mr snow goodbye mr hurley

01:27:12   so you