236: Whatever Keyboard Pleases Me


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 236. Today's show is brought to you by ExpressVPN,

00:00:16   Pingdom and Luna Display. I'm Myke Relay FM and I'm joined by Jason Six Colors. Hi Jason Six Colors.

00:00:22   It's great to be here Myke Podcasters. We only, we got this one chance, uh, I think we're

00:00:29   the first tech show in our little bubble to publish after Tim Apple, the Tim Apple situation.

00:00:34   So even though it's old news, we get to do it. And for the sake of people listening far into the

00:00:39   future, President Trump called Tim Cook Tim Apple during a... I think you mean Donald America.

00:00:48   Donald America during a American Workforce Policy Advisory Board meeting, whatever the

00:00:56   frick that means. Uh, called him Tim Apple, there's a video, I'll put it a link to a Verge article.

00:01:01   And just in the best possible thing that could have happened, could have come out of this,

00:01:06   Tim Cook changed his Twitter name to Tim and the Apple logo. Uh, I love so much that Tim Cook

00:01:13   is trolling the President for like, I don't even really know what the gain is for that,

00:01:20   but I like very much that he's doing it. I think it's hilarious. Yep, yep, absolutely. Um,

00:01:26   John Oliver did a bit on his show on Sunday night that was, uh, suggesting there was a Photoshop of,

00:01:32   uh, of young Tim Apple, um, taking the company over from his father who founded it, you know,

00:01:39   Bob Apple or whatever. And it says, Oh, it's a family company. I don't know how, uh, you know,

00:01:44   I think Donald Trump thinks of, of company names as equivalent to family names, right?

00:01:49   Cause that's how his company works. Yes. But, uh, Tim Apple, the Apple's long,

00:01:55   just giants in the technology world, the Apple family, his sister Fiona, uh, chose to go into

00:02:00   music. Well, weird, but you know, whatever. And he is the son of the two Steve Apples,

00:02:05   as we, as we all know, I don't even know how that works, but that's it. Aloha Steve Apples. They,

00:02:12   they used to own a garage together. It's time we finished this and moved into #SnailTalk. And we

00:02:16   have a great question this week from Brent who asks, Jason, when you fly, do you prefer window

00:02:21   or aisle front, middle or back of the plane or any other preferences for the seat that you occupy?

00:02:27   Um, I think this is a great question, mostly because I actually have opinions. Yep. I was

00:02:34   just making some plane reservations and I realized I, uh, so first off I always prefer the window.

00:02:40   And the reason for that is I know that the aisle gives you access to the aisle and to the bathroom

00:02:47   without having to make your seat mates get up and all of that problem I have is my shoulders

00:02:52   are wide enough that if I sit on the aisle, big, uh, beverage carts will slam into my shoulders

00:03:01   occasionally. I just, it, it, that it happens either that or my knees are the problem. Oh,

00:03:07   interesting. Yeah. It's for me, it's my shoulders. And if, um, if not that, then it's, um,

00:03:14   then I'm repeatedly, uh, sort of touched on the shoulder by a flight attendant and told to move

00:03:21   inward in order to avoid slamming, which is nice, but it's not the best. I just don't like it.

00:03:26   Whereas at the window, I can just be at the window and there's a little space between me and the

00:03:30   window and it's great. Um, and, uh, in terms of where, like in the plane, I, um, it kind of

00:03:40   doesn't matter. Uh, I will sit as far forward as I can and get a, uh, window, but that's,

00:03:46   that's about it. Uh, these days, the way airplane seat reservations work, they start to charge you.

00:03:52   If I just bought some seats on a, I think United flight to my niece's high school graduation in May.

00:04:00   And, um, I usually don't fly United, but, um, but I, I did on this and it was hilarious because not

00:04:07   only do they have their economy, basic economy where you can't pick a seat at all, but the

00:04:12   regular economy fare, uh, blocks out a bunch of seats that are in the front half of the plane.

00:04:18   And they want you to pay a little bit extra for like a better seat, which I thought it's not,

00:04:22   literally, it's not any better except for the fact that it's closer to the front. And, um,

00:04:27   I'm not interested in that, so I'm not going to support that kind of business model. So I,

00:04:31   I picked one further back, but, uh, but yeah, I love, love the window. Um, I think more on the

00:04:36   right side of the plane too. I was just, uh, uh, when I was picking those seats, I realized that

00:04:40   I was gravitating toward the right side of the plane. I don't know why I don't have any reason

00:04:43   for that. Myke, what do you, where do you sit? So I have a few different considerations than you and

00:04:49   a few different perks as well. I fly transatlantic the majority of the time. So I have status with

00:04:55   British Airways, so I can always choose my seat whenever I want, right? That's one of the perks

00:05:00   that I get. I don't have to pay for it and I don't have to wait. I can choose it whenever I want.

00:05:04   And because I'm mostly flying transatlantic, I'm very typically in situations where people

00:05:09   will be sleeping. So I always choose a seat, which means that if I am sleeping, somebody doesn't have

00:05:16   to bother me. So I go for aisle seats in the middles. If I'm in one of, if I'm in like the

00:05:22   two, three, two type thing, because then the other person can just move like the other way. I always

00:05:31   try and make sure I come in the middle of the plane at an aisle so people don't need to climb

00:05:35   over me or wake me up if they want to get out of their seat. And the same that if I want to get up,

00:05:40   I don't have to move someone, right? So don't sit in the middle. It will sit on an aisle. It's kind

00:05:45   of the same reasons. Just the different considerations when you're flying 9, 10,

00:05:50   12 hours at a time, right? Like you're starting to think about the sleep in and then how that

00:05:54   affects things. So that's typically what I do. I don't really care for window seats because they

00:06:00   trap me in. Yeah, I don't like being trapped, but I like getting rammed with a big heavy cart.

00:06:06   Yeah, yeah. I have one on a knee on my last flight to San Jose. Woke me up. That was real bad.

00:06:12   It was real bad. Yeah, I just had a flight not too long ago where I ended up for, I think because the

00:06:18   flight was crowded, I ended up on the aisle and I was like, "Oh, well, the aisle, we'll do the

00:06:21   aisle. The aisle's fine." First thing you know, I'm getting slammed with a food cart or something.

00:06:27   And I thought, "Oh yeah, I can't." It was a reminder like, "This is why I don't do this.

00:06:31   I can't do this." So that's okay. I'll wave to you from over at the window.

00:06:36   So thank you so much to Brent for sending in that #snowtalk question. If you would like to submit a

00:06:44   question for the show, just send out a tweet with the #snowtalk and it may be given in consideration

00:06:50   for a future episode. People had stuff to say about the TV license.

00:06:57   Yeah. We said a lot of controversial things I thought last week, and I was actually surprised

00:07:03   we didn't get more angry emails, but we did get a few tweets about the TV license, mostly saying,

00:07:08   "Oh, something I think you said," which is, "Oh, they do have this thing where you can

00:07:14   basically say, 'I never want a TV license. I certify that I never watch live TV or use

00:07:21   iPlayer or whatever of those things. Please just stop bugging me.'" And that you could do that,

00:07:26   and that they had done that, and that they wouldn't be bothered too much, except then somebody else

00:07:31   posted a bunch of pictures of all these threatening billboards.

00:07:35   Yeah. There are a bunch of billboards. This came from Colin. One is, "Our database lists every home

00:07:40   without a TV license, just so you know. Get one or get done," which was...

00:07:45   And that was in the tube.

00:07:46   Yeah. Or, "Our database is notified when a new TV is purchased. There's nowhere to hide."

00:07:50   Now, I think some of these ads are maybe a little older, but this is the point that I'm trying to

00:07:55   get at. The way that they tone everything makes me feel like it's just going to be more hassle

00:08:01   than it's worth. And I know people, I know friends who have tried to do this thing with a TV license,

00:08:06   and they keep getting letters from the TV licensing people. And I will say, Jason,

00:08:10   because I was following up with people, the majority of people that told me all I had to

00:08:15   do is not pay it were people that didn't even live in the United Kingdom. Like, I'm super happy that

00:08:20   people know that this is a thing you can do, but trust me, try and do it, right? Like, this is my

00:08:25   point. Way to correct the English guy about things that happen in England, people who don't live in

00:08:30   England. This is, it is not as easy as you think to opt out of the TV license. Like, it really just

00:08:35   isn't. I wish... And even when you do, apparently they still do, like, bug you, and then they've

00:08:39   also got the signs up that are particularly threatening. Yeah. But anyway, I have to say,

00:08:45   I'm kind of relieved that, not disappointed really, even though I kind of brought it

00:08:51   on myself that people weren't quite as upset by some of our pronouncements. That's fine. I think

00:08:57   at this point, we scared away most of the people who can't get around to a high-risk way of thinking.

00:09:04   You know? That's good. Maybe we'll scare away some more people. I just, I figured there'd be a real,

00:09:07   like, face ID or touch ID partisan would pop in, or there'd be somebody who'd be really angry about

00:09:14   iOS apps on the Mac and all that, but you're right. Perhaps we've... Also, you know, people

00:09:18   who think that you should never click the skip intro button on Netflix. We had all of those hot

00:09:22   button issues, but it was not that big a deal, so that's fine. We scared those people away.

00:09:26   They can't take us anymore. No. I wanted to just give a little bit of follow-up

00:09:31   for tracking the changes coming to the potential entry-level iPad line, so the regular iPads.

00:09:37   Mac Otakara is reporting that the screen size of the next standard iPad is not yet finalized.

00:09:43   They are saying that they've heard from some suppliers who are stating it will be 10.2 inches,

00:09:47   and some are saying it will be 9.7. The way that I read this rumor, Jason, is not that it's not

00:09:52   decided, it's that there will still be two of them. There will be a new version, and then there will

00:09:57   be an old version, which is cheaper. That's what I think is going to happen. You think it will just

00:10:01   keep the sixth generation around and then also release like a seventh generation? Yeah. Or,

00:10:06   you know, at least keep the sixth generation in education. Right, right. That they're still making

00:10:13   the sixth generation, plus they're going to make a new seventh generation and whoever...

00:10:17   I think it would be super strange that there are suppliers that think that there are orders coming,

00:10:22   but they're still debating it. Everything we know about Apple is like, they don't leave it.

00:10:26   It's not like they're just still trying to work it out. This is a product that is apparently coming

00:10:30   sooner rather than later. This iPad will also reportedly keep Touch ID and the headphone jack.

00:10:36   So basically like the current ones that are in this generation. I don't think this is much of

00:10:41   a surprise. I don't know if I'd necessarily spent too much time thinking about Touch ID versus Face

00:10:47   ID, but I'm not surprised that Face ID wouldn't make its way into this line, right? You got to

00:10:52   differentiate between the high end and the low end somehow, and that's a perfectly reasonable way to

00:10:57   do it. And as our friend Zach in the chat room points out, not finalized when it's supposed to

00:11:04   be shipping is kind of just patently ridiculous, which is why I think your theory, which is there

00:11:08   must be... They must actually be planning on continuing to manufacture the old size as well

00:11:13   as the new size is... I think the only explanation if these reports are true, because there's no way

00:11:19   that they're like making supply deals and then they're like, "I don't know." We're not sure.

00:11:22   We want to check the prices? It seems super weird. Guys, get more 10.2

00:11:27   screens in there now. We just decided that's not going to happen.

00:11:31   All right, so let's move into Upstream where we talk about the happenings in streaming media.

00:11:35   We can say goodbye to the Disney Vault. CEO Bob Iger told shareholders that Disney Plus,

00:11:41   at some point fairly soon after launch, will carry films that traditionally have been kept in a vault

00:11:46   and brought out basically every few years. This is in a report from The Verge from a shareholder

00:11:51   meeting. Jason, this is good news, right? Yeah, this is... I always... Disney decided

00:11:58   that they would create this artificial scarcity with their films, which as a parent, let me tell

00:12:03   you, it's the worst. It's the worst. Now, what you do get is you get like grandparents or even

00:12:08   potential grandparents buying... I knew somebody who literally bought every single Disney VHS release

00:12:15   because they wanted to get everything while it was out of the vault so that when their child

00:12:20   had children, and this was somebody in their 20s, basically, when their 20-something child

00:12:26   had children, that the grandma would be able to provide a video library of every Disney movie.

00:12:32   And there was a whole buying strategy and hoarding these movies. Of course, in that case,

00:12:37   you know what happened, which is by the time the kid was ready to watch Disney movies, everybody

00:12:41   moved on to DVDs. And she had all these VHS tapes like, "Hmm, that's not so good." But it's

00:12:48   infuriating because when I was... My daughter got really into Sleeping Beauty when she was little,

00:12:54   and Sleeping Beauty was in the vault. And I'll just say it, you know what I did? I found a friend

00:13:02   who had Sleeping Beauty on DVD, and I made a copy of it. I ripped the DVD and made a copy of it

00:13:09   because my daughter wanted to watch Sleeping Beauty. It was not available for purchase

00:13:14   anywhere. And it was infuriating. Now, three years later, they came out with the Blu-ray,

00:13:17   and I bought the Blu-ray. I'm not sure we ever watched the Blu-ray of it, but I bought it

00:13:22   because I had copied somebody's thing. But it's stupid. So when they announced they were doing

00:13:31   the service, this was immediately what I thought, which was, "Well, this is the answer to the Disney

00:13:35   vault," is instead of the Disney vault as a strategy to get people to hoard Disney movies

00:13:43   and create this artificial demand for them by withholding them for no reason other than

00:13:49   to withhold them, that instead it becomes... The Disney vault becomes an inducement to subscribe

00:13:57   to Disney Plus because all of the movies, the only place that you can stream those movies are on

00:14:04   Disney Plus. And I think that's really smart. I wonder tangentially, there are some other

00:14:09   kind of treasure troves of movies that are not available on streaming that I wonder if somebody

00:14:13   will back up a truck full of money to, let's say, Studio Ghibli, where all the Hayao Miyazaki

00:14:23   movies are not available on streaming. And I think that's because Miyazaki... Yeah, I know, right?

00:14:27   That's because Miyazaki, I think, has just basically refused, which is really annoying

00:14:33   to make them digitally available in any way. You can't even buy them digitally after you get the

00:14:36   discs. But that would be another example where there's a little treasure trove that maybe at

00:14:41   some point somebody will spend and use as a motivator. But the Disney vault, they own it.

00:14:45   They've got all those movies. They've been hoarding them all this time. And so I think

00:14:51   it's a brilliant strategy because you're basically saying, "Hey, you're a parent. You love Disney

00:14:55   movies. You wanna show them to your kids. Pay for Disney Plus and you get all of them." Like,

00:14:59   yeah, that makes sense. That works. And we mentioned this before, but as well,

00:15:05   Captain Marvel, which is out now and smashing records left and right, that will be the first

00:15:10   Disney Plus exclusive as well, which is super interesting. So if you wanna get it digitally

00:15:17   and probably in 4K, I bet they'll still sell it on iTunes, but only in 1080. If you want it on 4K,

00:15:21   that's where you want it. So I'm only gonna stream on Disney Plus.

00:15:24   I think that there is a question about the vault idea that it remains to be seen where Disney's

00:15:34   movies end up in the long run. Like, will they be available? I assume they'll continue to be

00:15:40   available on like Blu-ray and 4K and probably a la carte on other services, but it's possible that

00:15:48   they will withhold some of those too in order to create a vault-like kind of thing where it's like,

00:15:55   "Well, you can't get it anywhere else. That one right now, but you can get it on Disney Plus."

00:15:59   - Yeah, it's like I don't think any of the most recent Marvel movies are in 4K

00:16:03   to buy digitally. Like, not on iTunes. You can just get them in 1080.

00:16:09   - Yeah, 'cause I have some 4K Disney stuff, but I think it's 4K on other platforms and not on

00:16:16   iTunes and it syncs over as a 1080. - Yeah, like "Avengers Infinity War,"

00:16:20   it's just in HD. That's it. It's not in 4K. It's not in HDR. They've done this for a while now,

00:16:27   like the actual Marvel Marvel movies, right? There are Marvel-related movies, right? Like the

00:16:34   Spider-Man movies you can get in 4K. - Right, because that's released by Sony.

00:16:38   - Yeah, so if it comes from Disney, they've just not been doing it, which I'm portraying.

00:16:42   - So it is very frustrating. So that is a question. Like, there are other vault-like strategies that

00:16:48   they can do that are not quite the same, and that's interesting. I don't know if we've heard

00:16:53   of Disney Plus is gonna do 4K HDR. I would assume it does, although probably they'll do like Netflix

00:16:59   and say you can pay more and get the 4K HDR version and all of that as part of it too. It'll be

00:17:05   interesting to see how they do it, but this is a huge asset for them, so it's not surprising that

00:17:09   they would deploy it because they want people to pay for this thing, and that's a great motivator.

00:17:12   Like every Disney movie, including stuff that's been out of circulation, maybe not every because

00:17:17   they've got some that they don't want anyone to see anymore because of the racism, but mostly.

00:17:22   - So yeah. - "Encyclopedia Netflixia." So this is a great title

00:17:29   over on Six Colors because of a quote from one of media's Robert Greenblatt, so the guy in charge,

00:17:34   "Netflix doesn't have a brand, it's just a place that you go to get anything. It's like Encyclopedia

00:17:39   Britannica. That's a great business model when you're trying to reach as many people on the

00:17:43   planet as you can." Now a lot of articles that I've seen about this quote from Greenblatt,

00:17:49   frame this as him throwing shade at Netflix and being like, "Ah, Netflix is just a place where

00:17:55   you go to get anything. They don't do anything specific. They're just a bunch of stuff."

00:17:58   But you wrote something on Six Colors, which seemed a little bit more in defense of this quote.

00:18:04   Yeah, I think a lot of people love to point and laugh at clueless executives who don't understand

00:18:09   about technology and all of that. And I think they totally misread what Greenblatt was saying here,

00:18:18   which is something that we've talked about before. I've written about it before, and it's the idea.

00:18:25   So Greenblatt's the new guy in charge, which is why, as we said last week, the HBO guy left,

00:18:30   and they're making a bunch of changes as AT&T takes over WarnerMedia. But his point here,

00:18:37   it's actually related to what we've talked about Apple and about Apple's strategy and the

00:18:42   reputation it's gotten in certain circles. That New York Post article we talked about last week

00:18:48   is directly applicable, which is people who are kind of bent out of shape because Apple,

00:18:52   who is spending billions of dollars on this content, is trying to set some standards for

00:18:57   what they want for their content. The don't be so mean thing is the idea of, when we look at Apple's

00:19:04   video stuff, what's the personality of that? It needs to have a personality. Ideally, any of these

00:19:12   services need to have a personality. They need to say, "Here's what kind of vibe you're going to get

00:19:16   from this." It's family-friendly. Disney, for example, is not going to do, almost certainly,

00:19:22   Marvel stuff on Disney Plus, that is, with the content of the Netflix shows, which was basically

00:19:29   rated R-level. I don't think Disney Plus is going to have any rated R-level content on it because

00:19:33   it's the Disney brand. That stuff will go on Hulu. It won't go on Disney Plus, I think,

00:19:38   almost certainly. So what's Apple's personality? And they seem to be, "Don't be so mean," a little

00:19:46   more positive. We had that story about wanting to be able to show it in Apple stores. So

00:19:52   you know, network TV level, maybe, in terms of standards and practices, and maybe a little more

00:19:59   positive, that report about not liking dark techno criticism, like Black Mirror stuff.

00:20:08   And that's their prerogative. They have the money. I think there's marketing value in it, too,

00:20:13   because you need your product to mean something. Like, "What do I get when I sign up for Apple?"

00:20:17   You get these kinds of shows. It's helpful. HBO has a perspective. It is not necessarily

00:20:26   as simple as, "It's for families," but HBO has a... There's a feel for what an HBO show is.

00:20:33   And I think the more feel that you have, the more clear your brand is, the better. And

00:20:37   WarnerMedia and its streaming service is an empty box without a label on it, right? What is that?

00:20:45   What is that? It's a corporation. It's like Warner Brothers. We've heard about that, and

00:20:48   Looney Tunes. And the people have some associations with Warner Brothers and Warner in general from

00:20:55   the old days. But what is the WarnerMedia streaming service? What does it mean? And I think that's

00:21:01   what Greenblatt's saying here is... First off, he's like, "Don't talk about us compared to Netflix,"

00:21:07   because Netflix is everywhere. Does the air have a brand? What he's really saying here

00:21:14   is like the Encyclopedia Britannica, Netflix buys all kinds of content. And other than maybe Amazon,

00:21:22   I don't think there's anybody out there who is currently at a point where they could be that.

00:21:26   They can say, "Our streaming service is for everybody, and we spend $15 billion a year."

00:21:31   Maybe they'll dream of ending up there, but right now, that's what Netflix does. They are making

00:21:36   things around the world. They're making things for kids. They're making things that are super

00:21:40   hard-edged and only for adults. Netflix is releasing multiple things every week.

00:21:45   So when I look at what Greenblatt says here, I'm thinking what he's saying is,

00:21:50   when he says it doesn't have a brand, he doesn't mean nobody knows who Netflix is. He's saying,

00:21:55   "Netflix doesn't stand for a narrow-focused thing that's trying to target an audience."

00:22:00   Netflix is for everyone. That's been their strategy, and that's why they're so dominant.

00:22:04   Netflix is this enormous cultural force. And I think he's also saying, "Please don't compare

00:22:09   us to Netflix, because we don't have that budget. We're not going to spend that money. Instead,

00:22:13   we're going to try to create our own brand that is going to reach a certain audience that we're

00:22:19   targeting with content that we think they will like, that will resonate with them. And that's

00:22:25   what we're doing." And I think that's what he's saying here. I think he's very specifically saying,

00:22:30   "We are going to come up with a personality, and we're going to try to reach these people.

00:22:33   And we can't be Netflix." And it allows when they launch this thing and people are like, "Well,

00:22:38   let's compare them to Netflix." He's already sown the seeds here of, "No, no, no, you can't compare

00:22:42   us to Netflix, because they're like the encyclopedia. They are A to Z, everything.

00:22:47   And we aren't that. We're not trying to be that." And the fact is, nobody, other than, like I said,

00:22:52   maybe Amazon with Prime Video, nobody's in a position to even pretend to try to do what

00:22:58   Netflix is doing. And finally today, MacRumors is reporting that Apple and Roku are currently

00:23:05   finalizing negotiations to add AirPlay 2 support to their devices via way of a software update.

00:23:11   GABLER>> There it is. There it is. We were talking about this when they made those first CES

00:23:15   announcements, right? Like, gotta be that other shoe to drop. Looks like it's gonna happen,

00:23:20   according to these reports, AirPlay 2 in Roku TVs, like mine, and also in Roku streaming boxes. And

00:23:29   what this does is it gets AirPlay, which means it gets Apple's TV service and all of Apple's

00:23:36   video content onto any TV for what, 20 bucks, 30 bucks, for the lowest end of the Roku boxes,

00:23:47   assuming that they are going to be covered by this, which we'll have to see. I bought my mom

00:23:51   a Roku, a little Roku streaming, I would call it a stick, but it's actually more like a, it looks

00:23:56   like one of those little infrared receivers, except it's a whole Roku thing for 30 bucks, 29 dollars,

00:24:04   at Walmart when I was visiting her. And, you know, it's basically invisible. And like, that

00:24:10   is the thing that Apple needs to have in the market so that they have access to all these

00:24:15   TVs for relatively cheap for people to watch their streaming service. And I think the beauty of this

00:24:21   is it shows they're more concerned about services revenue than hardware revenue, and it actually

00:24:25   frees them to not make a cheap-ish Apple TV if they don't want to, because they don't need to.

00:24:32   Like, Apple TV has all these other features, and if all you want to do is beam your Apple TV shows

00:24:39   from your iPhone to your TV, you can just buy a Roku thing for 30 bucks and it'll be fine.

00:24:44   - And as we said a million times, but this just for me is like, if it's coming on Roku,

00:24:49   it's going to be on the Fire TV stick too. - Probably. I mean, Apple and Amazon have had,

00:24:54   seem to have resolved many of their differences, and they're tech giants and they go back and forth

00:24:59   about it, whereas Roku is not a tech giant and therefore is, Roku really would love to support

00:25:06   whatever Apple is doing, I'm pretty sure, right? It increases the value of their product, but

00:25:10   I would be shocked. Yeah, I would be surprised anyway if Apple and Amazon didn't ultimately

00:25:17   make a similar deal. - Yeah, it's valuable to Roku because they have the possibility of creating the

00:25:22   cheapest AirPlay 2 box that you can get, right? Like that's their selling point there, right?

00:25:27   - And then you're in Roku's ecosystem on the TV when you're there. - Which is valuable for them.

00:25:34   - And that is, and that gives them a leg up on Amazon, which is why I think Amazon,

00:25:39   for similar reasons, will want to be able to say that they integrate Apple's stuff.

00:25:46   - Yeah, because if you're Amazon, you don't want Apple to king-make Roku, right? - Right, and

00:25:53   AirPlay 2 seems like the best way forward because then it gets away from all of those problems that

00:26:01   are a problem on the Apple TV for Amazon, which is purchases on device and stuff like that.

00:26:06   If you just do the AirPlay 2 stuff, you don't have to worry about any e-commerce, any logins,

00:26:11   any stuff like that, which is the point of contention between Apple and Amazon, is the

00:26:16   cut that Apple wants to take of every purchase on their devices. - And AirPlay 2, as the method here,

00:26:23   is beneficial to Apple's core business because it means you have to have an iOS device. You can't

00:26:28   just sign up, right? Like for Apple TV and use it with another device, use it just on whatever stick.

00:26:35   You have to be able to beam it from something, which is what they ultimately want everybody to

00:26:39   have, which is an iPhone, right? So there's the other benefit. Will this sell iPhones?

00:26:43   Probably not, but does it fit with Apple's core business? Yeah, it does. So I would be surprised,

00:26:50   I mean, we're expecting an Apple event here in a couple of weeks. Depending on how the news goes

00:26:54   over the next few days, maybe next week as a draft, which will be one of the weirdest,

00:26:58   most wonderful drafts of all time, so I'm very excited for that. So, you know, maybe Roku finds

00:27:03   its way into the draft. So, because I can imagine a slide where Apple says, "Hey, this is all these

00:27:09   sticks we're working with." - All these partners. - All the great partners. - There's got to be

00:27:14   that, right? Well, we'll draft it, but there's got to be a slide that says where this is available,

00:27:20   where this is going to be available, and it's going to be all the Apple devices and all our

00:27:23   partners. - Yep, so we'll see. All right, today's episode is brought to you in part by ExpressVPN.

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00:28:49   expressvpn.com/upgrade for three months free with a one-year package. Our thanks to ExpressVPN for

00:28:57   their support of this show and Relay FM. So we're going to do some kind of extended follow-out and

00:29:03   build upon a topic from ATP last week. The episode was titled "The MacBook Hierarchy of Needs,"

00:29:12   and John Siricusa presented an interesting thought process of looking at the potential next entry in

00:29:20   the MacBook Pro line and ranking via a list of priorities like the Maslow hierarchy of needs,

00:29:28   about what are the most important features and what are the ones that you must have for the

00:29:36   laptop for that product to be a viable product for you. So you wrote about this on Six Colors

00:29:43   and I kind of liked your take on it. And I want to kind of do this in two different ways because

00:29:48   we both use laptops but not to the level that the ATP guys use their laptops. So I think

00:29:55   maybe our needs will be slightly different, we'll see, but I also wanted to pivot this a little bit

00:30:04   into what it would take, what our hierarchy of needs are for an iOS laptop, which is the famous

00:30:11   iBook created by Jason Snell. And so I figured that we could maybe kind of split it in two,

00:30:16   maybe to see if there's any differences between those two things. So I kind of broke this down

00:30:21   into a few different lists, right? So for a MacBook Pro, considering what people want from it,

00:30:27   and also looking at the upcoming rumors, I think the things that we kind of have to pick from are

00:30:32   like an increased screen size, and if that's important to you, ports, keyboard reliability,

00:30:38   power. So I also wondered like Intel and ARM, is that like a thing that you can that you care about

00:30:44   at this stage? Is a new design important to you as a reason to buy a laptop, battery life, cellular,

00:30:50   and maybe MagSafe? So those are the kinds of things that I was thinking about as well, looking at what

00:30:54   you wrote on Six Colors. So for you, when it comes to a MacBook or MacBook Pro, where does the kind

00:31:00   of the line start to get drawn? Well, I think the thing that I found valuable in having this

00:31:07   sort of thought experiment is the idea that there are the things that you can't change that are

00:31:15   fundamental to the product, and that they have to be at the top of the hierarchy, right? It's a

00:31:20   little bit like saying you need to, you know, you need to have food and clothing and shelter,

00:31:26   you know, you need to be safe and secure first in the hierarchy. Like these things,

00:31:32   the foundations, right, that everything else needs to be built on. And it speaks to the issues

00:31:39   that people have had with Apple's laptops the last few years, because I think the keyboard is

00:31:44   a great example. Like only one company makes Mac laptops, obviously, it's Apple. So if you want to

00:31:51   use Mac OS, you need to buy their hardware. And at this point, other than the very, very, very old

00:31:55   999 MacBook Air, they all use essentially the same keyboard, which is the keyboard that they

00:32:01   introduced in to the MacBook in 2015. And it has now spread across the entire line. And it's been

00:32:08   modified a few times. And some people have some problems with it. And I wrote a piece like two

00:32:12   years ago about how part of the problem that Apple is having in terms of blowback from MacBook Pro

00:32:18   users and MacBook users in general, is the fact that they have, they're cornered, they have nowhere

00:32:23   to run. There's no alternative unless they leave the platform entirely, right? If Apple made like

00:32:30   a Pro laptop and a consumer laptop, and the Pro laptop had a different keyboard, and that's what

00:32:35   everybody was hoping, right? Everybody was hoping after the Magic Keyboard 2 came out, that the new

00:32:43   MacBook Pros would use that keyboard and not the MacBook keyboard, because the MacBook keyboard had

00:32:47   been optimized for thinness, and on a MacBook Pro, you could presumably afford a little more travel.

00:32:53   And that didn't happen. And as a result, there's no choice. You can't say, "Well,

00:32:58   if you want the different keyboard, get our other model." It's like, literally, this is the only

00:33:01   keyboard you can buy. And that's why I keep thinking like, for things that are fundamental,

00:33:06   you need to make careful decisions. Like an SD card slot is not fundamental. Like, it's a nice

00:33:11   to have, but in the end, you can buy a little dongly thing that will give you an SD card slot,

00:33:18   right? But you can't pull the keyboard out and put in a new keyboard. You can't pull the screen off

00:33:23   and put in a new screen. And, you know, and you can't like drill a hole and add a couple of ports,

00:33:29   right? So there are parts that are integral to the laptop. And that's where you have to start. So in

00:33:34   my mind, that's where it has to start. And something like the keyboard, Apple needs to make

00:33:37   decisions about that keyboard, I think, that make it more broadly appealing, because nobody's going

00:33:44   to have an alternative. Nobody's going to have a choice of something different. If they're going to

00:33:48   truly design one keyboard for every laptop they make, it needs to be appealing to everyone, or at

00:33:55   least inoffensive to everyone, which I think the old keyboard was. And the new keyboard, there are,

00:34:01   it definitely has its adherence. But I think that the challenge there is that you're making,

00:34:05   if you make a keyboard and a certain percentage, let's say a quarter of your user base hates it,

00:34:11   they have no recourse. Like they have nowhere to go. And that's not good. I think that's not good

00:34:17   if you're Apple and you're the single supplier and you're basically saying everybody who likes our

00:34:21   operating system has to like this keyboard, because this is all you're ever going to get.

00:34:26   I think that that's not great. So for me, it all starts with the keyboard. I thought the ATP guys

00:34:31   brought out a great point, which is for the pro laptops, getting to one-to-one on, so it's not a

00:34:37   scaled display, because right now the default view is scaled. And so it's not as clear, it's not ideal

00:34:43   like on a pro laptop, having that display be, you know, unscaled default, I think is a good

00:34:50   one to put on the list because you can't do it later, right? You can't fix it later.

00:34:55   And then all of the other stuff, I mean, I have to ask myself this question as I was listening

00:35:01   to them and as I was writing my thing, which is, I wonder if part of why I found traveling with an

00:35:07   iPad and working on an iPad so attractive is that an iPad is basically a screen without a keyboard

00:35:15   and it lets me supply whatever keyboard pleases me. And there's some truth in that, right? Because

00:35:21   I like the bridge keyboard and the bridge keyboard. And I even like the smart keyboard folio,

00:35:27   although not as much as I like the bridge. I've been using that a lot because the bridge

00:35:31   keyboard for the new iPads isn't out. And you know, I'm really missing my bridge keyboard.

00:35:36   I'm dying for the keyboard. Yeah, right. Right. But that's a difference with the iPad is that you

00:35:41   can supply your own keyboard and MacBook and MacBook Pro users can't do that. So I wonder

00:35:48   about that too. So for me, that's where it all goes. I think MagSafe is one that's interesting

00:35:52   to throw in there because while there are magnetic adapters that you can plug into a USB-C port,

00:35:57   it's kind of hacky and, you know, or kludgy. Ideally, you know, I would love to see Apple say,

00:36:06   "You know what? A magnetic connector, this is essentially a USB-C connector, but we've

00:36:10   invented this new connection type, which is magnetic. So it's a breakaway or something."

00:36:14   I would kind of love that. But, you know, that is a good example of something that is probably

00:36:21   ideally integrated into the hardware and not something that you can just use an escape valve

00:36:26   of a dongle. So for me, whilst I appreciate the importance of a reliable keyboard, I'll

00:36:35   ask you, by the way, keyboard, reliability or feel or both? Like what is, what are you basing?

00:36:40   Do you have to have a good keyboard? Do you have to have a reliable keyboard? What's the limit?

00:36:45   - I think the core issue here is reliability, right? Because the people cannot like the

00:36:51   keyboard. I think you can get used to it. Everybody can get used to everything. I would like them to

00:36:56   make some different priority decisions on the actual feel of the keyboard. It does feel like

00:37:00   they something designed for the MacBook. And then they basically forced everybody else who didn't

00:37:05   need those constraints to also adopt it. But I also understand that like, you know, not everybody's

00:37:10   a fragile flower like me who looks at that keyboard and is like, "I don't like it. I can

00:37:15   use it, but I don't like it." I would like to think that Apple wants a keyboard that appeals to more

00:37:20   people rather than is used begrudgingly. But I feel like the core problem they've got and that

00:37:26   they've tried to address multiple times now is the fact that it's getting a reputation for being

00:37:32   unreliable. That like people have stories and they tell other people about that time that their

00:37:37   space bar stopped working and they were told to, you know, get a can of compressed air or take it

00:37:42   into the Apple store. And that's not good. Like I think that is the thing that will threaten their

00:37:48   sales figures the most is getting a reputation for unreliability. - So I will buck the trend.

00:37:57   The keyboard is not the most important part to me personally for a MacBook Pro. We're going to talk

00:38:03   about this later on, but I use my MacBook Pro five times a year probably, right? It's when I'm

00:38:08   recording away from home. That's when I use a MacBook. And for me, the biggest thing that I

00:38:17   would want to see to make me want to buy a new one would be the reintroduction of a USB, a regular

00:38:23   USB port, because that's the thing that is most important to me. I don't use the keyboard, right?

00:38:29   I'm not sitting and typing on it. Like it's really, it is just a machine to allow me to get

00:38:35   to all of the software that I need to edit and all that kind of stuff. And I have some sticky keys.

00:38:41   I have Marco's original MacBook Pro, the one where he first had a problem. I think it's got like a,

00:38:47   the E key will get stuck. I have that. I bought it from him. So like this keyboard came to me with

00:38:53   already having an issue. It's not something that is that important to me because I'm really just

00:38:58   using it as a, like an audio production machine and using dongles. And like I use this like

00:39:04   hyperdrive dongle, which only has one USB-C port because when I bought it, I think I bought it for

00:39:11   a different machine than the one that I have. But anyway, and so it's not, it doesn't sit exactly

00:39:17   how I would like. It gets a little bit wobbly and I don't like that. I would just like to be able to

00:39:21   plug my audio interface in with USB and just leave it at that. That's what I would like to be able to

00:39:26   do. Uh, but I don't have an option to do that right now. You can just get a USB-C to USB-A

00:39:32   cable, right? Or is it the number of ports that's the issue? I have, I could get one of those cables

00:39:37   and it would be great, but also I just think just the number of ports is an issue. Like it really

00:39:41   restricts me. Um, cause I also need the SD card, right? So I'm still going to need a dongle for

00:39:47   that because if I'm recording without the laptop, which happens too when I'm traveling, I then need

00:39:52   something for the SD card too. So like the removal of all of the ports that came away, whilst there

00:39:57   are some fixes, they're all fixes and I don't really care for them. Like what I want is the

00:40:02   ports back. Do I think I'll get it? No, but that's why I'm not assuming I'm going to buy a new MacBook

00:40:07   Pro, right? But that's where the line is drawn for me, uh, personally is to see some more, some of the

00:40:14   more frequently used ports come back to the line. That's what I would like, but I'm an outlier

00:40:19   because I don't use a Mac laptop the way that most people use Mac laptops. I mean, the touch bar issue

00:40:25   is, is, you know, here too, right? Because you get the more ports on the touch bar models,

00:40:33   but people, you know, are, some people are reluctant to go with the touch bar models.

00:40:38   So that's, that's a question going forward. I don't want that. I don't want the cost of that

00:40:43   for what I'm doing, right? Like, you know, it's too much and I don't need a touch bar because again,

00:40:50   I wouldn't be able to effectively use the touch bar because I wouldn't, I'm not used to it. My,

00:40:54   my, I'm act as an ever touch bar. And so I'm not going to get in a touch bar based workflow on a

00:41:00   laptop that I use so infrequently, you know, I tried using a Mac book for a while. Like I

00:41:05   used the Mac book for a while for this. And it just, it just can't deal with, with the pro apps

00:41:10   very well. Like it was a point where using the pro apps, like final cut or logic plugged in the

00:41:18   battery would be draining. So that was why I moved back to a Mac book pro, polo Mac book. And that

00:41:25   was perfect for me, like the size and thickness and the weight and stuff. That's what I want,

00:41:30   but it just can't handle what I need from those machines when I'm traveling, which is a shame.

00:41:36   So, you know, I think that based upon what you want is typical to what most people want. And

00:41:42   I'm a bit of an outlier when it comes to the Mac book. So why don't we just go into complete

00:41:46   outlier territory, an iOS laptop. Now what diff, what could change here? What is important to you

00:41:55   in this mythical product? Where does the line get drawn? I'm assuming this line would be a little

00:42:01   bit higher. There would need to be more things that it would need if we look at where iOS based

00:42:07   products are today to make this a compelling product. Do you agree with that? I think,

00:42:13   oh, I mean, I'm struggling with the thought of given what Apple has said about the future of iOS

00:42:17   and Mac OS. I, I am now finding it hard to believe that this product will ever exist. Then instead,

00:42:23   it's going to be a more Mac iOS, like Mac laptop. But, you know, I think there are open questions

00:42:32   there about just how iOS, like they're going to make the Mac and the big questions are things like

00:42:37   touch support. Would they consider making a convertible where, you know, you could flip it

00:42:43   around and make it more tablet, you know, tablet mode and then have it be more in the laptop mode

00:42:49   or would they just ever consider making a more, you know, hardened keyboard option for the iPad

00:42:58   Pro themselves rather than just these covers, something that's more like what Microsoft offers,

00:43:03   where they've got some other keyboard options. I don't know. I don't know. So, so that's for me,

00:43:10   that that's where I kind of run aground on the iOS laptop ideas that I'm, I'm feeling like Apple

00:43:16   has just basically said, if you want, if you like iOS and you want a laptop, travel forward in time,

00:43:22   a couple of years and look at and buy a Mac laptop because it'll run all your iOS apps and also do

00:43:29   the things that a Mac can do. And that's great. I think the truth is that my, my favorite thing

00:43:36   about traveling with an iPad fundamentally is that I can use it without the keyboard

00:43:43   when I want to, because a lot of what I do with the iPad, I don't need a keyboard. And then I

00:43:47   attach a keyboard when I need it. And when you travel with a Mac laptop, the keyboard's always

00:43:52   attached. And I, I'm not sure that is going to change in, in the future that I'm not sure Apple

00:43:58   is ever going to let, you know, make a product that basically feels like an iPad, but is actually

00:44:05   a laptop. But I think that that's, that's part of it, right? So like for you, any product that Apple

00:44:11   were to possibly make or make available for others to make in the future would need to include this

00:44:19   like convertibility factor. So like, imagine if, so for me, like where I would want to draw the

00:44:26   line at making, uh, my iPad more like a laptop is track pad support, right? Like that's the most

00:44:32   important part of it for me, right? Like if we want to, if we want to continue pushing iOS to be

00:44:38   more like a laptop, I would like to be able to use a track pad and could embed that into a keyboard.

00:44:42   So like that's super important. Although I am kind of coming around to your idea that like,

00:44:46   if there was ever the ability for iPads to support these things that we wouldn't want some company to

00:44:52   come along and be like, all right, you got to keep it in this case now all the time, like the ability

00:44:56   to be able to separate it is still really important. And I think that drawing the line with

00:45:00   those two things, I think really helps push iOS to be more like a laptop without making it.

00:45:07   Just an iBook that runs iOS. No, I think this is actually a good point that, um,

00:45:12   that I hadn't really thought of before, but I'll put it out there now, which is if my choice was

00:45:18   you can get an iPad that acts like a laptop, if you snap it into a case that makes it into a laptop,

00:45:26   or you can just use a Mac laptop at that point, I just use a Mac laptop. Like I, I, I, I deal with

00:45:35   the limitations of iOS because I'm less enthusiastic than, than somebody like Federico

00:45:41   about, uh, how, cause Federico is very much a, I prefer iOS kind of guy. I am a, I like iOS. Sure.

00:45:49   And I like iOS and I like the Mac. I prefer what the iOS devices shapes get me. And if I have to,

00:45:58   this is why I don't like, I haven't liked any of the cases like Logitech made a case for the iPad

00:46:03   where you basically snap it into this thing and it becomes a MacBook air. And then you have to kind

00:46:08   of snap it back out every time you want to use it as a tablet. And like, if I wanted my iPad to

00:46:13   permanently turn into a laptop, I just use a real laptop at that point. Like I'd rather just use a

00:46:18   Mac book air or a Mac book pro, because the reason I like the iPad is because a lot of my uses are

00:46:26   without the keyboard and I can ditch it. And I have a very light little tablet to hold. So for,

00:46:31   for me, uh, you know, beyond a certain threshold, like I'm not interested anymore. So a convertible

00:46:36   something, um, you know, I would be great. Like I just, I really love the fact that I can use a

00:46:42   keyboard on my iPad when I need to and only when I need to, because that makes it a much better

00:46:47   device because I only use the keyboard. I only have to use the keyboard some percentage of the

00:46:52   time. And it's not a huge percentage. Yeah. 5%, 10%. I don't know. Yeah. I agree with you there.

00:46:56   Cause it's like the smart keyboard I can keep, I keep it on cause it's fine. There's the folio.

00:47:01   I can just flip it around. It's fine. But when I get back into the bridge lifestyle,

00:47:04   which hopefully it will be sometime in the next few months when I'm, I would and did take my iPad

00:47:11   out of the bridge keyboard quite a lot because that's too much at that point, like a fixed

00:47:16   thing, which I can't really do anything with that adds weight and thickness. It's like, no, I don't,

00:47:21   I don't want this on all the time. And the ability to just be able to take it out and put it back on

00:47:25   again was really good. It's one of my favorite things about that. But that is, I think super

00:47:29   important when thinking about iOS as a laptop, it's like, or iPads as a laptop is not losing

00:47:35   inherently what makes an iPad an iPad. Like saying like, oh, well, you know, it's like an iPad,

00:47:40   but we've just fixed it into this screen now, like into this case. And that's just how it is.

00:47:44   That's not so fun. Like that's it, it loses something and being able to like still pop it out

00:47:51   and do what you need to do and then pop it back in and it's back to being more of a traditional

00:47:56   laptop form factor is a little bit more kind of enticing than the idea of just completely changing

00:48:03   what that form factor is all about. So there you go, the iPad iOS laptop hierarchy of needs.

00:48:11   We'll go with that. Thanks, thanks, John. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by our friends

00:48:18   over at Luna Display, the makers of the hardware solution that turns your iPad into a wireless

00:48:23   display for your Mac. This means you have a second display that's super portable with basically zero

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00:48:34   apart, I was having some fun over the weekend working on a little project in Pixelmator. And I

00:48:41   use Pixelmator on iOS a bunch. But there were some tools and also some font based stuff that just

00:48:47   wasn't working for me on iOS. Because basically if the font you're trying to use is not already

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00:48:57   that install stuff. So what did I do? I opened Luna Display, which is I have my Luna Display

00:49:02   plugged into my Mac Mini. Then I could use Luna Display from the Mac on my iPad using the Apple

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00:49:14   and I feel like I'm in complete control. I'm not feeling like I'm in this like weird hybrid mode.

00:49:19   It's using the Apple Pencil and the keyboard and my fingers. It basically is making my iPad a touch

00:49:26   screen like Mac basically. It's wonderful. It's like a complete extension to my Mac. This is what

00:49:32   Luna call the Luna Display and I completely agree. And I was able to get what I needed done by using

00:49:37   Pixelmator on my Mac instead of on the iOS. I love Luna Display because it's enabling me to be able

00:49:43   to do these things without then needing to go and turn on a Mac and all that kind of stuff. And I

00:49:48   could just be wherever I am and it's not breaking my workflow. But this isn't all that Luna Display

00:49:52   is for. It can very simply be used as just an external display, which is wonderful. So

00:49:57   maybe when you're traveling, even if you don't have a Wi-Fi connection available, you can just

00:50:01   plug in Luna Display and then you can plug in your iPad and your Mac over USB. And then right there,

00:50:06   you have extra screen real estate at your disposal. The all new liquid video engine added to Luna

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00:50:43   All right, so let's talk about podcasting on iOS.

00:50:49   Uh-oh, is this an intervention, Myke? Are you intervening against me?

00:50:53   No, no, I'm not. But I do want to kind of state my case on this whole little thing because

00:51:00   you wrote an article a few weeks ago on Six Colors about your current setup for podcasting

00:51:07   with an iPad Pro which got Federico pretty excited and Federico Vitticci has now kind of

00:51:14   bought some of this hardware so he could replicate it himself for various reasons. Federico mostly

00:51:19   because he spends some time in the summer at a different location to his home and would prefer

00:51:25   not to have to take his Mac with him. So he's been doing some experiments as well which has brought

00:51:32   him kind of to the similar place that you have and use because basically he's using what you

00:51:39   didn't tell him to do but he took it as you were telling him to do in the post. So I want to get to

00:51:46   this a little bit but before we get to kind of my feelings on this I want to talk about your approach

00:51:52   so kind of a couple of things. Why do you do this? Under what circumstances do you do this? And what

00:51:57   are you using right now to make podcasting on iOS work for you? So here the goal is okay I'm going

00:52:06   to see my mom and then I'm going to LA. I'm on this trip for about a week and I've got to do

00:52:11   podcasts while I'm gone. I've got like three podcasts at least that I have to do and I'm

00:52:15   thinking can I do this with just my iPad because normally I would just travel with my iPad but

00:52:20   there's this question like can I do this with just my iPad or do I need to bring my MacBook Air which

00:52:25   I was kind of resolved to just bring my MacBook Air along and literally only use it to record

00:52:30   podcasts because I'm going to bring my iPad along and I'm going to use it because that's my primary

00:52:35   thing and I would even write on it because it's got the nice screen and I've got a keyboard and

00:52:39   it's fine but I thought I might need to bring my old MacBook Air with me just for the podcast stuff

00:52:45   because it's got audio hijack and it's got you know call recorder and all of those things on it

00:52:51   and then I thought okay can I figure out a way to do this without that because that would be

00:52:56   I wouldn't need to bring the laptop it is shaped like a laptop it's got to fit in a bag I got to

00:53:03   take it out of security I got to do all these things and my question was like is there something

00:53:08   I can do that will not require me to bring all sorts of you know extra hardware at which point

00:53:14   I should just bring the laptop and I managed to get it to work and and what I did was add one box

00:53:21   I brought my USB interface that I use to record which weighs you know less than a pound and that's

00:53:29   it like I brought one extra box and is inherently easier to pack than a laptop is yes yeah because

00:53:36   it's a it's a it's not quite a cube but it is a little rectangular thingy it's it's easy to pack

00:53:41   throw it in a in a bag or carry on or whatever and it's powered by a USB plug so I don't have to bring

00:53:47   like my macbook air is an older one so I have to bring its magsafe power adapter because that's how

00:53:54   it only way it charges I also throw out there that my my my daughter travels with a laptop

00:54:00   and my my but my mom doesn't have a laptop anymore she just has an ipad so I don't even have that like

00:54:07   emergency safety net that I sometimes do when I travel where it's like well at least there's a

00:54:10   mac around if I need it like nope there's not going to be a mac around when I'm in the desert

00:54:15   there's no macs so the desert of macs just cactus no no macs in the desert yes right that's true

00:54:24   good point good point so what I figured out is that I could add one box and I could do this

00:54:29   because the goal here is I want to be able to when I'm doing a podcast I want to be able to speak into

00:54:35   a microphone and hear my own voice returned to my ears because that's very important in terms of did

00:54:42   I get the volume right am I popping my peas all of those sorts of things and I want to hear you

00:54:46   right or whoever is on the other end of the podcast I need to hear both because I need to

00:54:50   hear what you're saying otherwise this is just a one I mean it's a very bad podcast if we can't

00:54:55   hear each other and also I want to hear you through your podcasting microphone so that's

00:55:02   that's another piece of it right so so um I want to hear both I want to send you the my high quality

00:55:07   microphone and not some sort of like laptop microphone or ipad microphone or earbud microphone

00:55:12   I want you to get the one I'm talking into because that's going to make me sound the clearest and then

00:55:18   number three is I need to be able to record my voice and that's important because then I need

00:55:23   to send you the file or whoever you know I need to have a file of my voice at full quality and so

00:55:29   what I ended up doing was using the zoom voice recorder plugging my microphone into that and I

00:55:37   realized that it's got a it's got an you know an out port a line out plug that I could plug into

00:55:44   my usb interface and then I could plug that into my ipad and the ipad pro with usb-c it works fine

00:55:51   and at that point you're hearing my my voice come through via usb as if it was plugged into my

00:55:57   microphone it's just that it's not it's plugged into my voice recorder that's plugged into my

00:56:02   microphone and by adding that additional layer because unfortunately the zoom won't run as an

00:56:11   audio interface and record onto a an sd card so if it could do both I would only need it but it

00:56:18   can't do both so and my goal here was not to buy new hardware I was just using existing hardware

00:56:23   and cables that I already owned because I was trying to say my goal for myself was can without

00:56:28   buying anything can I make this work and I could with existing hardware as far as I know there is

00:56:33   nothing that you even can buy so there are products by sound devices the company that makes the usb

00:56:39   pre-2 that you're using called the mixpre series and they record simultaneously onto a sd card

00:56:47   whilst also outputting over usb but they do not work with ios yeah I have heard mixed responses

00:56:53   some people have gotten them to work with ios some people have not I you know that's not great right

00:56:58   like next response even contacted sound devices support and they sound and they said they have

00:57:03   absolutely no plans to support this officially so if it does work I wouldn't rely on it because it

00:57:10   could break um at any point who knows but so I mean and it is worth noting because it does when

00:57:15   you look at the image it looks like you have a lot of stuff on your desk but honestly it's one more

00:57:20   box than one more box you're currently using so exactly like for for this for the typical setup

00:57:26   it's not it's not that much now so this is kind of kind of how it works the problem is when you get

00:57:33   into all the the trouble points it is two twofold one no software backup right of audio recording

00:57:40   and two the file transfers so the software backup thing is kind of nothing you can do about that

00:57:46   that's an ios thing we'll get to that in a minute but the file transfers what are you doing for that

00:57:50   because you end up with files on an sd card right yeah and it's the same thing I've talked about it

00:57:54   before um kingston makes a little box that's a little wi-fi a thing with an sd card slot and a

00:58:00   usb plug on it and basically they have an app that runs on ios and if you attach a hard drive or plug

00:58:06   in an sd card to that little box it it's a wi-fi box so you connect to it via wi-fi it's its own

00:58:12   little base station you open their app and it shows you all the files of the whatever device

00:58:18   is attached including the sd card and then you just copy them over um which is it's silly but

00:58:26   that is the most effective way i've found to transfer things off of an sd card that aren't

00:58:30   videos or photos which will be transferred natively but other file formats aren't seen

00:58:36   by any if you attach an sd card directly via an adapter to uh to an ipad pro so instead you use

00:58:42   this third-party app and it transfers the files over fairly fast and then i get about editing

00:58:48   in ferrite which i did i did an episode of download where you know i collected all the files and

00:58:52   in and i had to i was going to the airport so i had to do it in about half an hour and i

00:58:56   i did it it was fine and i have federico he bought a weston digital thing called the my passport

00:59:02   wireless pro and does the same thing and yeah but he can use it with an app that he uses called

00:59:09   i think file explorer so it actually shows up in files for him over a network which is kind of cool

00:59:13   that's nice yeah so he's been so federico's been playing around with this too um he even

00:59:18   surprised me on an episode of remaster by by using all this gear surprise and amongst our friends i

00:59:26   am i am considered to be a curmudgeon on this point but i have i have feelings about it which

00:59:35   is why i think that this is not a good option if it is what you are considering to be the only way

00:59:44   you're going to record so to try and break that down a little bit i think that this option is

00:59:50   risky because you can only get one recording output right you are just recording to the sd

00:59:56   card and when we're on our max again whilst it's only software i'm always recording in two places

01:00:02   because things can die so having two recordings going at the same time whilst both in software

01:00:08   is great and there is no way to do this on ios right now because of the way the audio is handled

01:00:13   on ios so my feeling that because of the i think there is an additional level of complexity that

01:00:20   comes with this really you were able to work this out because you really understand how this goes

01:00:25   right like and it took you some time as well to get it kind of to the to the place this is not

01:00:30   the first iteration of this setup that you've had sure but it's the first one that actually

01:00:34   replicated my experience as a podcaster yeah yeah uh which is a which was a nice a nice point i

01:00:40   mean like it took you even some time as somebody who does understand this stuff to kind of get to

01:00:45   the point where you were like okay i found the setup right yeah and with all of these things you

01:00:50   know whenever you say only an ipad what it really means is only an ipad and all the boxes that you

01:00:54   need to attach in order to make this work right there's no only here the ideal would be that i

01:00:59   would be able to take my microphone and either through an interface or if it's a usb microphone

01:01:03   directly plug it into my ipad pro and do a podcast and have all of the recording things happen

01:01:10   on the ipad like they do on a mac and that's not possible no and that that is what makes me kind of

01:01:18   like uncomfortable like all traveling setups include risks right because like when i travel

01:01:24   with a macbook pro and a zoom recorder things can go wrong because i don't use it enough i'm using

01:01:28   dongles right like but i can still use multiple apps and i'm still like pretty convinced that

01:01:34   what you are hearing from me is going all through the software so like what you are hearing as long

01:01:39   as i've set things up correctly which i do know how to do right in software like you're going to

01:01:43   hear me correctly so i just feel like if you're traveling or there are extenuating circumstances

01:01:49   that prevent you from using a regular setup this is fine because all traveling setups come with

01:01:56   potential pitfalls but i think as your only setup this is not how you should be recording podcasts

01:02:03   like you're adding too many potential risk points in um and i it's just not at the moment set up to

01:02:10   be a permanent solution like the mac is the best place for this stuff right now in my opinion but

01:02:16   if you have to use it fine but i i don't think that this is the right thing for always right now

01:02:24   that is my kind of feeling on this yeah i uh i i think i think one of the reasons i do this is

01:02:31   because i don't want to travel with a laptop if i can help but one of the reasons i do this is

01:02:35   also to explore the current state of the art and just remind myself of all the places where ios

01:02:40   as everybody who has been using an ipad pro since they were announced has said where ios fails us

01:02:48   and this is a this is a great example of that where in so many ways ios is just not capable

01:02:52   of doing all these things that we in our particular niche have come to rely on and i'm sure other

01:02:57   people in other niches can say similar things and other people in still other niches can say

01:03:02   completely different things like oh no it's all resolved now but on the podcasting side it's not

01:03:06   resolved because of the way ios handles sound and um access to the microphone and access to recording

01:03:12   via an app and all of those things and as a result you're left with this kind of uh weird work around

01:03:19   kind of scenario but that said like federico i i had that feeling of like can i get away with

01:03:24   not bringing a mac because i'd like to if i'd like to not bring that laptop if there's another way

01:03:30   with existing stuff i didn't want to spend money on uh on a new approach with lots of boxes but

01:03:37   the net result was that my bags were lighter because i did this than they would have been if

01:03:41   i had brought my macbook air and it's power adapter but you're right you lose some of your

01:03:46   backup i would say actually one of my big fears was we record these podcasts and especially with

01:03:52   guests who are not as uh as established as we are people who don't have all the stuff sometimes

01:03:59   their recordings fail sometimes they record the wrong microphone or they press the wrong button

01:04:03   and that's the part that like if i if i knew i was doing a podcast with somebody who didn't own skype

01:04:10   call recorder on the mac because you're using that recording of skype do you exactly now there are i

01:04:15   talked to somebody who said that there are some ways to work around that but i think that i think

01:04:19   that basically um that is part of the risk you take when you do this is that is that you need

01:04:25   you're relying on someone else so i like for download i relied on steven who i knew was using

01:04:30   call recorder to provide me with a call recorder file that i could use to sync everything up um

01:04:37   because i couldn't provide that myself so there's a lot there's a lot that you give up to do this

01:04:41   the only advantage is that i didn't have to bring my laptop with me and i got to write an article

01:04:44   about it so you know that was good but it's not it's not good enough for regular use that's the

01:04:50   truth of it and i think that goes back to the core issue here which is that uh there's stuff that that

01:04:54   as much as uh we like ipads and we like ios there's stuff that ios um especially on the software side

01:05:00   just is not capable of doing right now and i hope that apple addresses some of these issues so like

01:05:05   looking at the software there are options available that you can just take a usb microphone plug it

01:05:10   into your ipad and go you know apps like anchor and zoom and ringer these are applications that

01:05:18   provide calling interfaces and will do recordings for you um do what experience do you have of these

01:05:24   i know you've played around with some of them yeah um there are challenges like anchor does a thing

01:05:30   where they they have in their podcast recording app they have a guest mode where you can bring

01:05:36   people in but they have to be on ios devices um you can't be i don't know i don't know if they do

01:05:42   android but you can't be on like a mac or a pc because you need the app so that's no good um

01:05:49   zoom is a tool that i use for some podcasts especially on the incomparable these days it's a

01:05:54   it's a business teleconference app but it it has some features like it will record um it will do

01:06:00   cloud recordings of people and it will let you actually record multiple um people on different

01:06:05   tracks which is also really good um everybody has to have zoom they that's available on all

01:06:10   platforms and if i if i absolutely had to only travel with an ipad and do a whole bunch of

01:06:15   podcasts with a lot of people like i do with the incomparable i would probably do it all through

01:06:20   zoom um and then the another option is ringer which is another for pay teleconferencing service

01:06:30   and they have a uh they have a tier that's not cheap but they have a tier where um you can

01:06:36   connect to people on um on computers or on ios devices or android devices i think and it will

01:06:45   record your voice and it will record all the other people and you can get those files afterward

01:06:52   and edit them so there are some but they're limited and some of them are limited by platform

01:06:57   and some of them are limited in terms of their functionality and you know and i pay for zoom so

01:07:03   i don't actually mind that but like um some of them record locally some of them don't they just

01:07:08   have a cloud recording so it doesn't sound it's not as good quality but it's better than nothing so

01:07:13   i don't know i feel like uh the challenge here is that it's asking everybody to get yet another app

01:07:18   and you have to standardize and everybody has to get download that app or go to that web website

01:07:23   and that just makes it more complicated but it's possible it's getting closer but this is the catch

01:07:29   is that basically you have to count on somebody's app who has anticipated all of your needs you

01:07:34   can't connect a few apps together like we do on the mac and say well i'm using audio hijack and

01:07:38   i'm using skype and i'm using call recorder and now i've got everything and i'm you know i've

01:07:43   built a whole system up and ios just kind of doesn't let you do that yep and that's it that's

01:07:48   the key part that's what i'm waiting for for this is like i want to be able to on ios route my audio

01:07:53   to multiple apps and have it record that's what i want and i know that about audio bus i know that

01:07:59   it's this thing called audio bus which in theory that you're doing this on ios but nobody uses it

01:08:04   no no way perhaps you're using it barely any recording apps other than garage band are using

01:08:09   it like it seems to be a musician's tool um yeah it's not being yeah we hear we hear about it every

01:08:14   time and and it's one of those things where it's like well theoretically this could happen it's

01:08:18   like well that's great but um the problem is that the these it's not being supported by the apps

01:08:24   that need it and you know they're not going to support it and the way you need to do this is you

01:08:29   need to have a system-wide thing that lets an app like audio hijack say i want to grab the audio and

01:08:35   let it instead of saying the the author of every single app has to opt in and support this very

01:08:40   specific thing in order to do this it's just it's not realistic so um you know there there's

01:08:46   definitely always a will actually uh involving audio bus that is like it's just it's right there

01:08:51   but it's like yeah but it's not practical and it's not being used in in any of the apps that we would

01:08:55   choose and so that's why i think apple needs to to uh you know let more than one app can look at the

01:09:01   microphone at once for example as just one simple example and maybe look at the overall system audio

01:09:07   as well and if i could have an app that could record my microphone and on one side of a stereo

01:09:13   file and everybody else on the other side while i was using some other app um this problem would

01:09:19   be solved actually i want to mention there are some great tools that let you record podcasts

01:09:24   in browsers um zen caster and cast i use cast every week the problem is that they require

01:09:30   chrome on the desktop and they don't work on mobile on ios because ios has safari and apple

01:09:37   has made changes to the web rtc real-time communication standard over the last couple

01:09:43   of years um but according to the developers of these apps it's still not enough for them to

01:09:48   support safari so i was hoping that that might be a solution is to use one of these web apps

01:09:54   because they will record locally and then send your file up over the internet and uh it's very

01:09:59   clever because i can with non-technical people i can just say go to this url in chrome and we'll

01:10:04   do a podcast and i get a file from them and they didn't have to do anything except go to a url

01:10:09   great but it doesn't work on ios so because it doesn't work in safari so that's not an option

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01:11:35   move into #askupgrade now and jason there is a theme to the majority of today's ask upgrade

01:11:42   questions let's see if it plays out if you can see what the theme is as we move through okay okay

01:11:47   first question comes from ben what do you think of including iMessage for android or windows as a

01:11:52   part of apple's subscription service options in the future i think it's possible i think it's not

01:12:03   you know it's it's more engineering that they have to do i think that it's more likely that

01:12:09   they might build something i don't know i don't know i mean i think they could because it would

01:12:14   be certain you're part of our ecosystem in terms of services and if you've got an android device

01:12:18   you can get your stuff on there but is that a priority for them do they really think that that's

01:12:22   going to move the needle in terms of services revenue or is it just going to be kind of an

01:12:26   afterthought for people who happen to have an android device while also paying are android

01:12:31   users going to line up to pay for some apple service just to get a blue bubble and how many

01:12:39   so i'm skeptical about that but it's not impossible i don't think it's impossible i don't think it

01:12:45   would be like i don't even know if it's necessarily something that like you would pay for just but

01:12:52   would be a reason for people that don't use apple devices to sign up for a potential content bundle

01:13:00   right like you pay for apple tv and we have this apple tv you have for android let's imagine and

01:13:05   apple music for android and you also get iMessage too um it could be could be good it could also you

01:13:10   know it's a platform thing i i figure iMessage for other platforms feels like a kind of if like a

01:13:19   emergency release valve or something right like a break glass in case of emergency type situation

01:13:26   for getting more revenue like you just it's like oh what else can we throw at the pile

01:13:31   well we could also do this that's kind of how i look at that yeah but you you have to the problem

01:13:37   is that you have to build it like you have to get a team to build iMessage for another platform

01:13:43   which is not going to be easy right like of course it's not going to be easy um but that that's you know we'll

01:13:49   see and i think it could happen i think maybe at a certain point apple might just do it especially

01:13:56   when you look at some of the stuff that facebook's now talking about that they're going to do right

01:14:01   that facebook's going to make this uh end-to-end encrypted chat platform right and i can kind of

01:14:06   imagine i was listening to the vergecast this week and i think dita bone brought this up

01:14:11   that like maybe at some point apple just do it to kind of like

01:14:14   stick a thumb out at facebook and just be like well here is the truly end-to-end encrypted model

01:14:23   right like his as a kind of like a privacy thing maybe um and i could potentially see that as an

01:14:28   option just as like a kind of a way to stick a fork in the ground or whatever sure i'm making a

01:14:35   lot of really weird broken floors here yeah but you kind of get what i'm saying right i think i

01:14:41   think the challenge is a real cost analysis of how much is it going to cost for us to build and

01:14:46   maintain a secure app on other platforms for this stuff and do we really want to do that you know

01:14:54   is that going to get us subscribers and subscription revenue that is material but um i think it's i

01:15:01   think it's possible like they could sell it as you know you get all this this great apple suite of

01:15:05   features all on android too they could they could do that i just i don't know i don't know it's it's

01:15:12   a i'm a little skeptical of it but they could certainly do it if they if they did them the the

01:15:16   calculations and decided it was a good idea chris asks with apple's move towards services do you

01:15:22   think apple will put stuff like news tv music and books in the browser or will they remain locked

01:15:29   into apps i think this is a great question i feel like this is more um likely than building android

01:15:42   or windows apps right like we've already seen on windows with icloud that what they've done is said

01:15:47   oh if you're on a device that is not your usual device and might not even be a mac um we have a

01:15:54   web interface for you and then they build a web interface and everybody can use the web interface

01:15:59   so if you are on android or windows or whatever we don't care there's a website or on somebody

01:16:06   else's mac and you need to log in and check something you can do that and that's fine i think

01:16:12   that's a more likely scenario will it you know will they i don't know maybe maybe um i would

01:16:20   hope they would actually i think this would be a good one for them to do because it it is the

01:16:24   release valve right which is if you have no other way to do this you can just log in on our website

01:16:29   and read that news or watch that tv show or play that music arthur asks apple music or spotify i

01:16:39   now have apple music included with verizon so i'm deciding whether to cancel my spotify and go all

01:16:44   in on apple music i think it depends on the features you're using right because spotify's

01:16:52   selling point for a lot of people is the playlist that they make right so like discover weekly and

01:16:58   stuff like that which are apparently very very good and and i hear a lot of people compare them

01:17:03   to apples and apples are getting better but they're still not great and still not maybe as

01:17:08   good as what spotify is doing if you use features like that you may not be as happy but if really

01:17:14   all you're doing is listening to just the your like a library of music that you're putting

01:17:22   together right you listen to your favorite artists or albums i don't see why you wouldn't

01:17:26   go for apple music if it's now free for you basically because they all have the same library

01:17:32   like all these services have the same library it's just the bits on top like for example if you're

01:17:38   also using some of like spotify's features for controlling music on other devices using the

01:17:44   spotify app well you're not going to get that on ios apple music doesn't do this as well right like

01:17:50   if you're using you're like sending it out to echoes and to to sonos devices like whilst

01:17:56   apple's getting better with airplay too so this stuff is a little bit lower locked down there

01:18:01   yeah although you can just use the sonos app and you have access to apple music

01:18:04   that way yeah and you can still play that stuff on some of those devices so i don't know mike i can't

01:18:10   get if if i get apple music for free and i have to pay for spotify i'm going to use apple music

01:18:15   because why would i pay for spotify well i 100% agree i use apple music like i pay for apple

01:18:20   music apple music's just more integrated of ios i don't use spotify's features and i have home

01:18:25   pods so apple music for me right like i really think it just comes down to the fact if you're

01:18:31   using spotify like features that are specific to spotify that are outside of just the songs

01:18:35   and stuff you're playing then maybe you're best off sticking with spotify even if it is free for

01:18:40   you but if all you're doing is just listening to a library of music you've compiled i don't think it

01:18:44   really matters where you go um kleezy asked asks what are the pros and cons of apple releasing

01:18:52   apple podcasts for android i don't think it's maybe as much of a lock-in as ios for iMessage

01:18:58   can you imagine apple making an android apple podcast app or why they would even

01:19:04   i i can kind of imagine it but it would require them to um view podcasts super strategically for

01:19:11   them and they they have shown no signs yet of doing that where like where they they say no

01:19:17   actually we want to take advantage of we want to leverage our power in the podcast world to make

01:19:23   money like if they were to announce and we've seen no rumors of this at all but if they were to

01:19:28   announce that they're going to do what spotify is doing and create a whole bunch of like exclusive

01:19:32   podcasts that are only on apple and they're only for like apple music subscribers or apple whatever

01:19:38   services that are forthcoming subscribers to do that and that their delivery mechanism for that

01:19:43   was going to be that they're going to make a great podcast app on android and give it away and it's

01:19:48   and and they're going to use their their strength as a podcast provider to feed people into their

01:19:55   services then i could see it but they've shown no interest in that so far i think it would be

01:20:02   popular believe it or not if it was good because um the the podcast app market on android is really

01:20:11   fractured and google's taken a couple swings at it but even their current podcast app which is kind

01:20:16   of like a fake sub app of the google app is not great there are not to say there aren't good

01:20:22   android podcast apps there are podcast uh pocketcast is on android and it's great but um i think that

01:20:29   apple might have an opportunity there if they if they were going to make something of it but i'm

01:20:33   not sure we have seen any evidence that apple is interested in being anything but passive when it

01:20:39   comes to podcasting yeah i think the apple podcast could be successful on other platforms because of

01:20:47   the marketing weight that apple have with podcasters you know like the mainstream

01:20:52   podcasters you hear it all the time get it on apple podcasts like you just say that because

01:20:58   it's the biggest player and if you have something more mainstream your percentage of of apple

01:21:04   podcast listeners is massive right like for for like mainstream shows not shows like ours

01:21:09   mainstream shows it is huge right it's a big big big part of the pie so it seems like just over time

01:21:16   like a lot of like the celebrity driven shows or the kind of like you know your murder shows they

01:21:21   all just talk about like apple get it on apple podcasts because that's kind of just like the the

01:21:26   place for it and so then if you're not on ios you hear get out on apple podcasts and if you don't

01:21:33   know you're like well i can't get it then right yeah so i think that could be an interesting way

01:21:39   to play it because they are so strong with uh the marketing messages and asking i think a lot of

01:21:45   these people to use the marketing messages and stuff like that so i think that it works for that

01:21:49   reason um and it could be interesting it would i think it'd be kind of cool if they did do that to

01:21:54   be honest but we'll see google podcast doesn't seem that great i've used it a bit it does not

01:21:59   seem that great so no not yet anyway they seem to be talking a big game um but i'm i don't know if

01:22:06   the result has been that great so far all right so that i think wraps up this week's episode of

01:22:13   upgrade thank you so much to pingdom and lunar display and express vpm for their support of this

01:22:18   show uh you can find out more about this episode by going to relay.fm upgrade 236 but all the

01:22:24   show notes should be in your podcast player of choice we hope but if they're not you can go and

01:22:29   find them there jason is online at the incomparable.com and six colors.com he is at j snell j s n e double

01:22:36   l on social media platforms like twitter and instagram and i am i mike i m y k e you can follow

01:22:43   me uh in many places you just whatever social network you use just type that in and if something

01:22:49   pops up just follow it it's fine it's not gonna be a problem you'll find i'm sure something

01:22:53   interesting will be there even if it's not me uh thanks so much for listening and we'll be back next

01:22:58   time maybe with a draft if there is an apple event announced between now and then there will be a

01:23:04   draft on the next episode fingers crossed everyone we'll see until next time say goodbye jason snow

01:23:11   goodbye mike hurlan