0:00:00[Music]
0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 2-3-4. Today's show is brought to you by
0:00:14Luna Display, Squarespace, and Green Chef. My name is
0:00:17Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason Snell.
0:00:21Hello, Myke Hurley. How are you? I'm fine and dandy, my friend. How are you?
0:00:25Uh, doing great, um, and I'm not going to tell you what the weather's like here.
0:00:29You're just gonna have to guess. Well, it's probably similar. It's pretty
0:00:32warm here today, actually, but nobody cares about that because it's time for a
0:00:35#snowtalk question and today's comes from Tyler and Tyler asks the
0:00:40simple three-word question, Jason, of "Bagged or loose leaf?"
0:00:45Hmm, it's referring to groceries, obviously. Yeah, do you loose leaf your groceries?
0:00:49Because you have a Nissan Leaf. Is that when you just throw the groceries inside?
0:00:53You just let it roll around? That has happened where I've forgotten to bring
0:00:56the shopping bags to the store and they're like, "I can charge you
0:01:01extra and put these in bags," and I say, "You know what? Don't just put them in the
0:01:04cart." I'm rolling loose leaf today. I'll do loose
0:01:08leaf, grocery, and then, well, I did that one time
0:01:11and I didn't bring the bags in the car, in the store, but I had them in the
0:01:14car and I'm like, "You know what? I'll bag the groceries in the parking lot
0:01:17and then do it that way." So that was that, it's like a
0:01:21between loose leaf and bagged. Anyway, this question is actually... Well, it was
0:01:24that one time when you had loose leaf cans rolling around in the back of the
0:01:27car while we were recording an episode of Upgrade.
0:01:30Yeah, sure. #CarCast, that's a deep cut for long-time upgrade listeners.
0:01:34And if that was in the loose leaf, it would be a loose leaf leaf.
0:01:38And when Tweedle beetles battle, it's a Tweedle beetle battle. Anyway, this is a
0:01:41question about tea, and the answer is the tea robot that I
0:01:45have that I love that's the Breville tea-making thing that
0:01:50that automatically makes my tea in the morning and is great,
0:01:54is a loose leaf thing. So you put the tea, you put a couple of scoops of the tea
0:01:58in the in the little basket, and then it
0:02:01automatically boils the water and puts the tea down in for three minutes or
0:02:04whatever time you set, and then it pulls the water back,
0:02:06or the the basket back out. And then if I'm traveling and stuff, then it's just
0:02:11it's bagged because it's convenient. It's convenient,
0:02:14and it's fine. So that's my answer. But I buy
0:02:18tea, loose leaf tea, in bulk and use it in the tea robot.
0:02:23The tea robot I have found by searching for your name
0:02:27and tea robot, and I'll put it in the show notes.
0:02:31It's very, very easy to find. It is one of my favorite
0:02:35ridiculous gadgets because I love it because it means... Because making tea is
0:02:39fussy, because if you leave the tea in the
0:02:41water too long, it gets bitter and it's bad. And so what this thing will do is
0:02:45heat up the water to whatever temperature you want, then put the tea
0:02:48in the water for as long as you want, and then remove the tea from the water. So
0:02:52you can basically wake up in the morning like I do and put water and
0:02:55and tea, press a button and walk away, and come back whenever, 20 minutes later, an
0:02:59hour later, and there's hot tea for you. It's pretty
0:03:02nice, but you do have to buy a gadget for it.
0:03:05Jason, I have just a very quick piece of follow-up
0:03:08and some very quick upstream news as well today. We're just gonna
0:03:12fire through this. So you were thinking more as is
0:03:15the way, the upgrade cycle, right, which is either one of...
0:03:19It typically goes this way. Jason writes something
0:03:22and I think, "Hmm, that might be interesting to talk about on the show."
0:03:25So we talk about it on the show and then Jason thinks about something on the show
0:03:28and then writes another article that comes out of the upgrade.
0:03:31It's like composting for ideas. Yeah. So you wrote an article on Macworld
0:03:36kind of fleshing out a little bit more about the thinking behind your
0:03:41thoughts on Apple moving more into the smart home product
0:03:45business and a little bit about your great idea
0:03:49of the Apple TV sound bar as well. So people can go and read that, but
0:03:54is there anything more that you wanted to expound upon from last week?
0:03:57No, I mean, it was a good conversation. It was a story that had been
0:04:00sitting in my to-do list for a long time and
0:04:02then we talked about on the show and that was enough of an impetus for me to
0:04:05say, "Why don't I just turn this into an article?"
0:04:08In writing the article, though, it went from originally as
0:04:11conceived by me being kind of a pitch for the Apple TV sound bar,
0:04:15which for those who didn't listen last week is a combination of a HomePod and
0:04:18an Apple TV because I think there might be actually
0:04:21a product there and I think that might be
0:04:23interesting for Apple, but it was the larger point of
0:04:26as Apple's competitors buy the other products in the
0:04:33market, you know, that was my larger point was I feel like
0:04:36we all the same arguments apply that Apple shouldn't get into the
0:04:40smart home business necessarily because they're focused on bigger
0:04:43they have bigger fish to fry basically they're focused on these enormous hit
0:04:46products. That is all still reasonable.
0:04:51The problem is that if their competitors buy up every other smart home gadget and
0:04:55infrastructure tool that's out there so that
0:05:00their customers, Apple's customers, can't get on the internet without passing
0:05:03through a gateway controlled by their competitors,
0:05:06that maybe Apple needs to start thinking about strategically
0:05:10buying companies that are doing home tech
0:05:13just to keep them, even if they just put them in a subsidiary,
0:05:17just to keep them out of the clutches of Google
0:05:21and Amazon especially and maybe Facebook. And I've kind of come around to that
0:05:28feeling like maybe you need to be present here
0:05:32because if you're Apple because your competitors are very much present there
0:05:37and if they snap up every innovative company that's going
0:05:40in here and like I know you don't want to make a wi-fi router Apple but
0:05:43what if all the wi-fi routers are owned by the competition they're going to work
0:05:47less well with your stuff and you know the priority is going to be
0:05:52on your competition's products and also their business model so that's
0:05:58the that's the long and short of it. I understand the argument of like bigger
0:06:02fish to fry but they can fry as many fish as they want.
0:06:05They can. They could fry a lot of fish. I think Apple is not built that
0:06:10way historically like they don't hire a lot
0:06:12of people. We see it right like they could have an enormous operation
0:06:17but I think they believe that part of the magic of what they do is
0:06:21that they keep it on the small side but like I said
0:06:23you know maybe the answer they hired a new person to be in charge of their
0:06:27smart home efforts right they hired a new person so the question was
0:06:30what's his charter is his charter to like make a different home pot or
0:06:34whatever or is it to do something to have a bigger
0:06:37impact in this area and again does Apple have to make it all
0:06:41no but Apple has a lot of money so another model would be for Apple to
0:06:46invest in a bunch of these companies or maybe even buy these companies outright
0:06:50and then just say no they're going to run out there it's fine. This is a model
0:06:54Apple already employs let's me not forget
0:06:57Beats right Beats is a separate company that seems to have its own marketing and
0:07:03it's all of its own product development and they share with Apple
0:07:07but there is nothing to stop Apple from having its kind of like alphabet moment
0:07:11with Nest or you know like that they can have a
0:07:14separate company that makes technology for the home that is
0:07:19still owned by them and as Zach in the chat room is pointing out
0:07:22FileMaker never forget never forget FileMaker but like
0:07:26Beats is the better example here right if like that is a hardware company with
0:07:30a different brand that Apple wholly owns but you could very
0:07:34easily forget that they do and maybe they could do that for smart
0:07:38home. Yeah I mean I think all options should be on the table but
0:07:40if the argument is that Apple should never invest strategically
0:07:45in keeping products that are innovative away from their competition
0:07:49in the home especially and in the home infrastructure and smart home
0:07:53markets because Apple culturally can't focus on
0:07:56that many things at once then I think the answer is Apple's got a
0:08:00lot of resources Apple doesn't need to focus its people on
0:08:03it Apple could set a budget and set up a company with somebody in
0:08:07charge of it to just either make investments or buy
0:08:11companies and then allow them to run on their own.
0:08:14There are lots of other models here but I do
0:08:17just I had that moment where I thought is it really good that
0:08:21Amazon bought Eero and that that the Google has bought
0:08:24you know Google bought Nest back in the day and Dropcam and a whole bunch of
0:08:27other things like is it is it good for Apple if Apple says you
0:08:31know we're just gonna sit out and do HomeKit and HomeKit's
0:08:34gonna be great and people are gonna support it
0:08:37and meanwhile every company that makes something that is part of that
0:08:40infrastructure gets bought by their competition. I'm not sure
0:08:44that's a good thing for Apple even if Apple is right in saying
0:08:48guys we don't you know we don't want to make a smart switch right like I get why
0:08:51they don't although I think they could make one and
0:08:54have big margins on it and sell it at the Apple store and make a lot of money
0:08:56but that's another thing I mentioned in that
0:08:59article but anyway I just I'm fascinated about where Apple stands currently
0:09:03in the home smart home market and what that might mean in the long run
0:09:08now that they've made this new hire what's his role is his role to really
0:09:11expand what Apple does or is it his role to do what Apple's been doing
0:09:15up to now which is kind of just I don't know having a lot of remove from
0:09:20it doing some infrastructure stuff in terms of like HomeKit but otherwise
0:09:24sort of saying we're not going to play here at all
0:09:27so we have a quick piece of upstream news it was the Oscars last night
0:09:31and Netflix have picked up a selection of Oscars
0:09:35um yeah they did not get best picture for Roma which
0:09:39they were clearly going for but they got maybe second best they got best uh
0:09:44Afonso Cuarón the best director Oscar yep uh for for the movie Roma they also
0:09:49won best foreign language film and best
0:09:52cinematography three ain't bad for one movie it's not
0:09:56bad they had I think one previous feature
0:09:59Oscar before so this is this is they got three this year
0:10:02they were hoping for best picture I am not an Oscar handicapper but I will say
0:10:07I'm kind of not surprised like the fact that Roma didn't win
0:10:11makes me feel like there's a section of the academy
0:10:15voting group that is just down on a Netflix movie winning
0:10:19they did not want them to win yeah and it's a ranked choice
0:10:22they they rank them all from top to bottom and so like it wouldn't surprise
0:10:26me if there are a bunch of people who are like
0:10:27I'm not even going to put a Netflix movie there was somebody in the in the
0:10:31industry um in the last week and I forget who it
0:10:34was maybe it was a theater owner but somebody actually referred to Roma as
0:10:37a TV movie which I thought was like come on man come on but that was like there
0:10:41are people who have that that are that angry about
0:10:45Netflix playing in the Oscars at all because they feel like it's a
0:10:49an assault on the livelihood of the of the movie industry
0:10:52and so um it doesn't surprise me that it that it didn't win uh my gut feeling
0:10:58being that that's why it didn't win by the way I saw Roma this weekend it's
0:11:02spectacularly good I will say that is a very very very good
0:11:07movie so I'm sort of sad that it didn't win
0:11:10best picture um but uh I'm glad that it won what it did
0:11:13but yes so Netflix the the Netflix wanting to win awards
0:11:18uh story continues it's it's progressed but not maybe as far as they hoped
0:11:22and our favorite spider-man into the spider-verse won
0:11:25uh best best animation which is yeah that was really isn't that funny
0:11:30I mean that's such a great story where everybody assumed that the winner would
0:11:33be one of these other powerhouse animated movies um especially
0:11:37like Incredibles 2 but there was like so many movies that there's a
0:11:40prestige animated movie and there's like the winners in the category almost every
0:11:44year and then into the spider-verse came out
0:11:46and everybody said oh no this is one of the best movies of the year
0:11:49uh this should totally win and it did which was which was really great to see
0:11:53so I was happy about that too and I am I'll just I'll just make a shout
0:11:57out a uh an elementary school friend of mine a childhood friend of mine
0:12:01uh was up for best documentary short subject and he lost
0:12:07but um his name was read on stage and what they do with the people who are in
0:12:12the awards that are um they don't get a good seat they're
0:12:14seated far away is they bring all the nominees up
0:12:17they have these two little rows off to the left you might have seen them during
0:12:20the show sometimes they didn't even have I saw
0:12:23somebody tweeting about like why are there empty seats at the front of the
0:12:25stage and the answer is well they're moving
0:12:27the old uh nominee group out and the new nominee group in because that's
0:12:31one way they tried to speed up the show is that you can't have people coming
0:12:35from 90 rows back um anyway uh my friend sky was in the
0:12:39front uh on the aisle front row when his category was announced and he
0:12:45didn't win it but I was like oh that's sky that's great so the kid I played on
0:12:49the playground at Columbia Elementary School and
0:12:52in Columbia California was nominated and uh and was there and I got to see him
0:12:58and they said his name and that was pretty awesome
0:12:59so his movie was life boat but it didn't win
0:13:03never mind but that's still great a nomination
0:13:06that's pretty amazing I think that that'll take you some places
0:13:10all right today's episode is brought to you in part by our friends
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0:13:58with less time for you to work on Jason Snell I
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0:14:33have like little paper shells and there's a minimum of plastic in the box
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0:14:38yeah and good and we've had some several good meals even
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0:15:17of this show and relay fm all right Jason Snell
0:15:21it is mobile world congress right now and we just had
0:15:25Samsung unpacked which is Samsung's kind of that's the branding for their events
0:15:29that they do and some of the big trends coming out of
0:15:33the Samsung event the s10 by the way I think it looks really cool but we're not
0:15:36going to get into that today we're going to talk about foldables and
0:15:40I would say at this point that is the name of the category now
0:15:44foldables I don't think that was a thing that really existed before the last few
0:15:48days there was like a lot of like oh folding phones foldable phones
0:15:51they're called foldables now like phablets for phablets we have foldables
0:15:55and we spoke about this a number of weeks ago as we were building up to
0:15:59these events as kind of like would apple do this and what that might
0:16:02look like that was on episode 229 so you can go and check that out there
0:16:08if you want to get more details but I wanted to talk about the two
0:16:12big phones that have been announced in the last week which is the Samsung
0:16:15Galaxy Fold and the Huawei Mate 10 so Jason if you
0:16:19will permit me I would like to talk about some of the specs
0:16:22and some of the features of these two phones and then we can kind of compare
0:16:25them a little bit with our thoughts on how they look and
0:16:27how they seem to be acting so Samsung Galaxy Fold has two displays
0:16:32there is a 4.6 inch display on the outside and then you
0:16:36open it up to see a 7.3 inch display on the inside it has half a
0:16:40terabyte of storage and 12 gigabytes of ram
0:16:4312 gigabytes of ram in a thing you're holding your hands
0:16:47so much it has two batteries of course one in each side
0:16:51and their hinge system is this like fancy
0:16:54thing full of gears they showed this animation it looked
0:16:58bonkers okay the Galaxy Fold has five cameras
0:17:01it has three cameras on the outside and two cameras on the inside
0:17:06and Samsung has also been doing some work with some large developers and
0:17:09they've got some SDK information to enable
0:17:12three app multitasking in the Galaxy Fold
0:17:15it's going to be shipping in April April 26th
0:17:18and it will cost 1980 dollars we'll get to the prices later because
0:17:24that's like a whole separate discussion and nobody was allowed to touch it or
0:17:27even see it off of the stage I believe there is which suggests that this is a
0:17:31product that doesn't really quite exist yet like literally at the Samsung event
0:17:35nobody saw it the only time people saw it with their
0:17:38own eyes was basically on stage they have it in a case reminiscent of the
0:17:42first iPhone on the show floor at Mobile World
0:17:45Congress there you go there you go it's like the
0:17:49original iPhone or the Mac Pro right which is
0:17:51probably for say the same reason as those devices were
0:17:54encased in glass because it's not done they've got a couple of months left to
0:17:59finish the software don't touch it yeah and then we've got
0:18:03the Huawei Mate 10 so this phone is a little thinner than
0:18:05the Galaxy Fold it has a bigger screen and it folds more flat when closed
0:18:10so the Galaxy Fold it kind of has like a small gap
0:18:14towards the hinge when you close it up but it's not it's not as bad as our
0:18:17friend the Royale Flex Pie of Cheese the biggest difference between the Mate
0:18:2110 and the Fold and this is where I think the the ideological war will be
0:18:26waged over the next year or two the Huawei Mate 10 screen folds
0:18:32outwards not inwards so it has one screen and it folds
0:18:36outwards so the the Galaxy Fold it's kind of like a book where you open it up
0:18:40and the screen's inside but the Huawei it folds in the opposite
0:18:43direction so it's an eight inch OLED display when you fold it up you get a
0:18:486.6 inch main display which is the one you're
0:18:52using and then a 6.4 inch rear display on the back
0:18:55and there is a grip section kind of reminiscent of the kindle oasis
0:18:59which is where the cameras are so there's like a chunkier section that you
0:19:02can hold on to and that's also where the the folded
0:19:05side clips into it has like a latch it also
0:19:09features half a terabyte storage only only has eight gigabytes of ram
0:19:13and the Huawei Mate 10 will start at two thousand six hundred dollars
0:19:18and shipping quote in the middle of this year
0:19:22so these are two very different phones kind of in design they're doing the same
0:19:28thing very very differently um do you have a
0:19:32favorite of these design wise oh you're gonna set me up
0:19:37here because i know we disagree on this so uh you're gonna set me up to go first
0:19:40that's fine that's fine i could do it yeah i think i think no how much should
0:19:44i overplay this no reasonable person will disagree with
0:19:47me um that the uh i think the Huawei
0:19:52one looks way better right but that you are in the consensus from people that
0:19:56i've been seeing online i think most people prefer
0:19:58the look of the Huawei phone yeah yeah and i've got lots of reasons why i mean
0:20:02i think the Galaxy Fold like uh when it's in its folded configuration i
0:20:06think it looks way stranger than the the Huawei phone does weird that
0:20:10it's like super skinny and the display is like in the middle and
0:20:14you can't even call it a bezel because it's so huge like the bezel that goes
0:20:18around the screen it does look really weird it's very
0:20:20thick and the way they've engineered it it is um
0:20:24it's thick and the folding part like it doesn't quite
0:20:27touch um you know because it can't fold completely flat
0:20:31and so it's got this kind of space that's like
0:20:35the hole in the donut yeah that is very strange why has the space but it's way
0:20:40more uniform and way smaller like the gap in between
0:20:42what Huawei has done has they've made that grip section which reminded me of
0:20:46like the grip on my kindle oasis is actually kind of like
0:20:48this too but what they've done is the grip
0:20:50is not just a grip and a place where your sensor bar
0:20:54is but it's also there so that when you fold
0:20:58the phone back around itself um it the the screen comes level
0:21:03basically to the grip and so you create this
0:21:07um like sort of sandwich instead of the donut
0:21:11that's it i prefer the sandwich to the donut hole is what i'm saying mike
0:21:14and this is we're gonna have to find better words to describe these products
0:21:18as the foldable uh ideological wars continue
0:21:23so i okay i prefer the the design of the fold and i know i'm in the minority
0:21:29and i have a few things for this i think that the mate 10
0:21:32looks less premium um if you've seen any pictures of this
0:21:35the hinge is super weird looking i think compared to the uh folds hinge i think
0:21:42that the galaxy fold is a more premium looking product in in
0:21:47general we need to come back to that because i
0:21:49feel like every single early folding phone is just going to be a game of hide
0:21:53the hinge right like how do we deal with the fact
0:21:55that we've got to have this weird superstructure
0:21:58to make our uh display not crumple exactly and i think that samsung has
0:22:04done a better job of like building it as part of the design and
0:22:09making it attractive like they're even allowing customization of the color of
0:22:12the hinge on the phone where huawei i think it's
0:22:16more a little bit rough and ready right like it's kind of looks like a
0:22:20inner tube or something i could see it's like a super strange looking design to
0:22:24me but the overall product probably does
0:22:27look better on the huawei but i'm thinking about like if i'm
0:22:30gonna own one of these i'm thinking about like the long-term usability
0:22:34and uh i was watching a youtube video from super saff and he pointed out like
0:22:39how durable are these displays gonna be because they're made of plastic because
0:22:43glass can't fold yet i don't know if it ever will be able
0:22:46to or there'll be something in the middle but like if the screen's on the
0:22:49outside always is it likely to get scratched
0:22:54i don't know well that that's one of the the things
0:22:58the market may and long-term use by people will
0:23:02reveal but you're right like one of the fundamental differences we can talk
0:23:05about the look and feel here one of the fundamental design choices that samsung
0:23:08made that huawei did not make is adding a second screen and folding the
0:23:13big screen in on itself to theoretically protect it from the
0:23:17environment whereas huawei is completely in on the idea
0:23:21that your entire phone is going to be exposed to the world as
0:23:25a screen like the front of the screen like we make a big deal about like oh
0:23:29apple did glass on the front and back of their phones now you can scratch or
0:23:33break but like the huawei it's literally your
0:23:35screen all the way around and that means that you've got twice the surface area
0:23:40exposed to the world in terms of scratches you can't literally can't lay
0:23:44it down on a table on its back because it has no
0:23:48back really it's all screen and you know
0:23:52samsung i gotta say samsung has a little bit of
0:23:55home field advantage here right because they've been building these screens
0:23:58and they uh have experience with them probably that nobody else has
0:24:03this is why i look at it i'm like oh okay like i know like samsung we're not
0:24:07gonna we're not gonna open it to the world
0:24:09right they know samsung knows that so like my other thing on this as
0:24:14well of like kind of having a preference for the for the
0:24:17samsung line is i believe if any company is going to make this
0:24:21work samsung will be the company to make it work
0:24:25because they have a history of making really weird
0:24:32phones and turning them into products that make sense down the line
0:24:37like the note line right when the first note came out it
0:24:41seemed ridiculous but they eventually not only have made that a great product
0:24:46but have pushed a lot of smartphone design towards what the original note
0:24:50did in the first place right like if you just look at screen size as one
0:24:53of the bigger things right that was the first big phone and now all
0:24:58phones are that big i would probably i mean i haven't looked
0:25:00this up but i bet most regular phones now are bigger than the original note
0:25:04was the screen size yeah probably but so my thinking is
0:25:08like the fold has some real awkwardness about it which i think is that that
0:25:14front screen but when they eventually get to like fold two or fold three where
0:25:19they can tighten the gap up and make that front screen
0:25:22a more regular looking phone and then have the open screen in the in the middle
0:25:27i think that it will become a much more compelling product
0:25:30um i mean let alone the fact that huawei have
0:25:33significant issues trying to sell their products worldwide worldwide right now
0:25:37like you will not be able to buy the huawei mate 10 in america like you just
0:25:40won't be able to do that so that's gonna hold them back a little
0:25:44bit irrespective of it um one of the bigger one of the big
0:25:47issues um and one of the things that i'm interested to see how it'll eventually
0:25:51play out is creases creases in the screens you can see them
0:25:54like if you look at videos and gifs and images
0:25:57you can see like the the the galaxy fold has kind of a real thin line that goes
0:26:03down the middle and the huawei has like a book spine
0:26:07basically it looks like that goes down the middle
0:26:10this is just going to be another one of those things that it's going to look
0:26:13real bad in these first ones but they're gonna they will eventually
0:26:16get there the same with software you know you mentioned like nobody's
0:26:19really allowed to touch these devices yet
0:26:22um huawei are letting people touch it today but they're not really allowed to
0:26:25use it um the software is going to be an
0:26:27absolute dumpster fire for a while even when it comes out it's going to be
0:26:31janky as hell because this is like fundamentally a different experience
0:26:38to any phone that's come before right and like
0:26:41again i also have faith in samsung's ability just because of their size and
0:26:46scale as a company to be able to get more companies on board
0:26:50and like they they mentioned like whatsapp and office and and like google
0:26:56working with them on making the kind of they call it app
0:26:59continuity where you have you're looking at it on the front screen
0:27:03and you open it up and then it's in a bigger view
0:27:05and i think it looks really cool i will say jason you can probably tell
0:27:09i'm really excited about this trend i don't think that either of these phones
0:27:15are like what this is gonna be oh no no you gotta start somewhere right yeah and
0:27:20i feel like as well these two devices are a lot better than i expected the
0:27:25first foldables to be like i was expecting them to look way
0:27:29more like the royale flex pi than these devices right well i was
0:27:33gonna say um you i'm glad you mentioned look because
0:27:37these devices will ship and it's going to be like a disaster right like they're
0:27:41going to have all sorts of things wrong with them
0:27:42and that's part of the process i don't think anybody is uh
0:27:45people who act shocked are silly people that you shouldn't pay attention to when
0:27:49they when it turns out that there are all sorts of issues with these
0:27:51first-generation foldables because uh that's going to happen but uh but uh
0:27:55as you pointed out like they they look they look better than then again in two
0:27:59years we'll look at these and we'll be like
0:28:00wow those were terrible yeah like look at those ridiculous hinges can you even
0:28:04believe they're creases yeah now we have this magic foldable glass
0:28:07that nobody knew that we existed there's a really nice we put in the show notes
0:28:10there's a really nice um link to a thread on twitter by
0:28:13stephen sinofsky who of course worked at microsoft and has lots of very smart
0:28:16things to say about technology on twitter um and he he links in it to a different
0:28:20thread he did like i don't know a couple months ago about foldable phones but his
0:28:24point and it's a point that i made in a in a mac world or no a tom's guide column
0:28:28a while back too um you know talking about apple in in the
0:28:31context of this too it's like uh what what sinofsky says is very much
0:28:35what we've been saying um it's early days these first products are going to be
0:28:38ridiculous um there's a software issue i mean he
0:28:42knows this from having been at microsoft uh when they
0:28:45were trying to put a touch interface in like part of the issue here too is like
0:28:48what's google going to do with android and where is it going to bend over
0:28:52backward to help uh its vendors with stuff like this because it does do that
0:28:56sometimes remember it came out with like ways of doing notches and and and stuff
0:29:00oh i 100 believe that one of the next that android q
0:29:04one of its things will be supporting uh flexible displays
0:29:08like like like they did in in pi with notches
0:29:12like they built exactly a bunch of notch support exactly so
0:29:15so but it's still an open question of like where do they throw
0:29:19do they throw their weight behind what samsung is doing where there's like a
0:29:22single screen that becomes two screens or do they put effort into something
0:29:26because if they think that what huawei is doing has merit
0:29:29um they could for example um build it so that you can more easily
0:29:36put um you know different status information
0:29:39on the front and back of the screen when folded or something like that right like
0:29:42there are things they could do or they could be like no we're not going to
0:29:44support that like when it's folded we're just going to put status on the front
0:29:46and there's nothing on the back and forget it right like they could
0:29:49it's sort of like going to be interesting to see what their
0:29:52where they place their bets in terms of their resources that they're putting in
0:29:55and and because again if we don't really know how these foldable phones are going
0:29:59to work ultimately if you're google you you know you're
0:30:02probably not going to be able to support every possible configuration
0:30:06so you may make some bets and that will be interesting to see
0:30:09and then sinosky's other point that i thought was really good is something
0:30:12about apple which is you know everybody's gonna say apple's behind but
0:30:15apple and i i would argue maybe google with their hardware as well had the
0:30:20great advantage of sitting and watching these other companies spend all this
0:30:23money and also let's let's be clear is apple
0:30:26building foldable iphones inside apple as prototypes to try
0:30:30and figure out what the right way to do it is
0:30:32they undoubtedly they have been doing that for years now years
0:30:35they've been they've been doing as soon as they could get like these screens
0:30:38from samsung for like crazy amounts of money just so they
0:30:42could prototype with them sure bought them right like yeah every time samsung
0:30:45comes up with anything you know apple's buying it
0:30:48right like okay let's just get this screen and see what we can do with it
0:30:51because you'd be silly not to and apple also has an advantage that
0:30:54sinosky points out which is apple actually is further along in terms of
0:30:58dealing with these larger screens because apple has the advantage
0:31:01of having introduced the ipad nine years ago and having it be successful
0:31:06and having it have lots of apps that run on it whereas
0:31:10android has not had as great a success with that and so there's a little more
0:31:15work to do there so apple's got some advantages as well
0:31:18because of the ipad to go into a larger foldable device so
0:31:22i think that um apple's not behind even though pundits will probably say
0:31:27that that they are watching closely and making and will make
0:31:30their move and as sinofsky points out like apple is the
0:31:34ship it when it's ready at volume and uh is the sort of seal of approval on the
0:31:40market in a sense it's like oh okay mom and dad are here now right like
0:31:44now we're now it's gotten serious because we've exited the throwing things
0:31:48against the wall to see what sticks mode now apple can go too early and they can
0:31:53go too late but they're generally they've generally historically been
0:31:57pretty good about hitting it pretty close to on the nose
0:32:00um in fact i think the the large phone thing was a
0:32:04counter example where their um philosophy
0:32:07of what made a good iphone got in the way of the reality of the market but we
0:32:10we've seen through patent filings and things that apple has been
0:32:13on this idea for a long time um in fact it wouldn't surprise me if they
0:32:19were prototyping foldable iphone designs before they were foldable screens
0:32:23ready for them like just as a test of what would we do
0:32:27with this just to get out in front of it and i
0:32:30think uh i think this category like look this
0:32:33category could be a loser you know in the end and this is why i
0:32:37want to say this as fascinating as this is from just a pure tech enthusiasm
0:32:41perspective of like oh my god this is like a science fictional product
0:32:44that's come to be reality i think there is truth in the fact that
0:32:48this is all being driven by the idea that with
0:32:50oled technology you have the ability to make flexible
0:32:54screens and once you're at that point everybody
0:32:57says oh flexible screens that means we can make
0:33:01foldable smartphones so let's make those it's not motivated by
0:33:07a desire necessarily at least not primarily motivated by a desire in the
0:33:12market for a foldable phone it's more like the technology lets us do
0:33:15this and this is this is where apple secret sauce comes in honestly and i know
0:33:20at this point apple's not a secret everybody knows about apple and there
0:33:22are lots of companies trying to do ways and things in the way
0:33:25that apple does and that includes huawei and samsung they're trying to figure this
0:33:30out they do it in public apple does it in
0:33:32private but i i think the larger point here is
0:33:35the the magic moment in technology whether you're apple or someone else
0:33:40is that moment when you can take what technology is possible
0:33:46and use it to create a product that serves
0:33:50a need or solves a problem and right now i think we can see that
0:33:56there is a problem which is that people like bigger screens
0:34:00but at some point i think the perception is
0:34:04they won't fit in your pocket like people like bigger screen phones
0:34:08they might like tablets some people love tablets but a tablet won't fit in your
0:34:12pocket and maybe that's the thing the problem
0:34:15this solves i i don't want to leave i don't want to
0:34:19close off the possibility that that is not a problem and that
0:34:22nobody wants this because i think it's at least a
0:34:25possibility so i'm not ready to go 100 and say this is our this is our foldable
0:34:30future it may be further off than we think
0:34:33because in the end this may be so costly have so
0:34:36many issues and solve a problem that is not perceived as a problem by most of
0:34:40the market that it's just not going to be a big deal
0:34:42but it might and i think if you're somebody at apple
0:34:46who's working on this stuff and filing patents for the last three or four years
0:34:49that's the debate right which is like how can we do this in a way that
0:34:52makes sense and that people are delighted by because it
0:34:56makes their experience better because right now a lot of this stuff is very
0:35:00much like hey i've got a screen that can fold let's
0:35:02make a phone that can fold around it and that doesn't that doesn't
0:35:06say anything about the people who want to buy it it just says we have
0:35:09cool tech let's stick it in a product and
0:35:12that's the for the the that's the difference between the art and the
0:35:15science here and that's why i think you and i are so fascinated by this is
0:35:19like how do you how we don't know how wide the chasm is we
0:35:23don't know whether somebody's going to be able to jump
0:35:25across it uh whether it's going to happen i'm going to take this metaphor a
0:35:28little bit further whether it's going to happen now or
0:35:30whether or it's going to take years and we're going to have to bring in some
0:35:33heavy equipment to build a bridge across this chasm or if it's
0:35:36simply unbridgeable because nobody wants to go over there
0:35:38and we don't know and samsung and huawei don't know and
0:35:42apple doesn't know and google doesn't know but
0:35:45um this tech is here now so everybody's going to give it a shot in
0:35:50their own way and we'll see and that to me that is one of the most
0:35:54entertaining things about following technology because this could be
0:35:59transformative or it could be nothing we don't know we don't know i wanted to
0:36:04just touch on the price angle real quick before we move on because these
0:36:07these are expensive right they're starting at 1980
0:36:101,980 but like or or the or what is it 2,600 for the other one so yeah
0:36:17yeah that's i really am intrigued as to why the prices are so different
0:36:21like are getting samsung willing to take more of a hit on it i don't know
0:36:25um but it may i mean is anyone surprised like it's two
0:36:32smartphones stuck together essentially right is what's going on here that
0:36:36especially when you look at like the samsung they're doubling up a lot of
0:36:39components and i just wanted to like you know the
0:36:42cutting edge right there's a lot of uh a lot of like the design and the the
0:36:47rnd is going into this cost um and it will come down over time but i
0:36:52just wanted to mention like it's so you got 512 gigabytes of
0:36:56storage right the 10s max at 512 gigabytes of storage
0:37:01is 1449 dollars which is 500 cheaper
0:37:06than the folding phone that doesn't seem like a bit as big a difference as i
0:37:11would have expected um so you know i just wanted to mention
0:37:15that like because i i've been talking about this online and people like oh
0:37:19apple will make it cheaper i don't think they will yeah i think i
0:37:22think you're right in fact this is if we know anything look at the iphone 10 the
0:37:25iphone 10 brought in new tech that allowed apple to
0:37:28charge 300 more than they previously charged for their phones
0:37:32right that's essentially what they did so it's not at all
0:37:36far-fetched to look at something like folding phone technology and say well
0:37:39when apple does make a folding iphone that is one that they're going to charge
0:37:42500 more for yep because otherwise don't get the folding
0:37:46phone like you have to pay more there's more tech in here costs more
0:37:49um i'll also point out early generation stuff that does what no stuff did before
0:37:56like is expensive the original mac cost 2500 which in today's money is 6200
0:38:04for that little original mac it was a it was really expensive
0:38:08and it took a long time for the mac to come down in price
0:38:12and that's just that's that original tech like you're paying the people who
0:38:16buy a two thousand dollar folding samsung phone are doing it because they want to
0:38:20be on the super cutting edge and maybe
0:38:23don't care about the fact that it's not practical
0:38:26and are willing to pay for it and you know good luck to those
0:38:30people but right now like as you say of course it's going to be
0:38:35massively expensive because as well samsung and huawei do not expect to sell
0:38:39a lot of these they they don't right like this is probably something that's
0:38:44really difficult to make and they're probably not going to make
0:38:46that many of them and they probably don't expect to sell that many of them
0:38:49but that's not the point of the first one the first one is like let's get it
0:38:53out there let's see what people think about it
0:38:56let's actually do something for all of the research and development that we put
0:39:00into it and then move ahead all right today's show
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0:41:30support of this show and all of relay fm all right so uh mark german had a report
0:41:37about marzipan um do you know what i found interesting
0:41:40about this report i know it's just german's name
0:41:42um yes report which is different uh i'm starting to think jason
0:41:46that there's something about where the information is coming from
0:41:50and who's writing the reports and then kind of how the reports
0:41:54feel at bloomberg like i haven't put my finger on it yet but like
0:41:58this one's pretty concise but anyway uh basically
0:42:01the thing to take away from this is a timeline
0:42:04of marzipan and for the refresher marzipan is ios apps running on the mac
0:42:10this was project sneak peek shown off at wwdc last year
0:42:14which brought with it the news app and the home app onto the mac
0:42:18for very ios e apps so this is the timeline
0:42:21at wwdc 2019 developers will get the tools that they need to help them port
0:42:25ipad apps to the mac in wwdc 2020 this support will extend for
0:42:30iphone apps and then wwdc 2021 the ability to merge
0:42:35iphone ipad and mac apps into a new universal app for customers to buy what
0:42:41do you think of that timeline jason does that
0:42:42max does that like pass the sense check for you
0:42:46yeah i i think so right like obviously apple has said that in 2019 developers
0:42:51are going to get tools to do this um i'm a little bit baffled by
0:42:57the iphone in 2020 um you know we only have like two sentences
0:43:03from mark german on this so everybody is trying to extrapolate here
0:43:06um best i can come up with because like again i think of iphone apps and i think
0:43:12well you know i could get a little iphone app in a window on my mac and
0:43:14that would be fine i think what apple's thinking here
0:43:17is they're thinking about laptops because that's two-thirds of the mac
0:43:21are laptops and they're thinking about having something that can fill the
0:43:27screen not that it has to fill the screen but i
0:43:29think they're thinking about it that way and the problem with the iphone
0:43:32as any ipad user knows is that iphone apps don't work right they
0:43:36are you know they're orientation locked and they're scaled and they're
0:43:40they're weird and i think maybe that's what apple is
0:43:44is talking about here but i'm a little bit strange like support would be apple
0:43:48added for iphone i don't know why apple wouldn't just say
0:43:52look iphone apps run in a in a little window
0:43:56and uh if you want to make a universal app you want to make an app that runs on
0:43:59i ipad and mac you need to add that i'm not quite
0:44:03sure why there's an interim step where they say
0:44:06oh now we're going to add support unless it's some other technological
0:44:11um update that apple is doing that makes iphone
0:44:14apps scale better like you know what i mean like
0:44:19tools that make the iphone apps more kind of intelligently
0:44:23scale or they're thinking about some other kind of multitasking interface
0:44:26that allows them to be i'm just i'm a little bit i'm a little
0:44:29bit baffled by that but it may just be like tools to make people who have
0:44:32iphone apps get them to run on ipad and mac
0:44:35more quickly more easily than any anything else because so i i that's a
0:44:40that's a that's a question mark for me like what
0:44:43is that what 2020 is all going to be about they're going to do presumably
0:44:462020 will also be about lots of improvements to the marzipan
0:44:50stuff that drops in 2019 and maybe they're anticipating that that's going
0:44:53to be a more painful conversion um also 2020 the suggestion is that
0:44:57that's when the arm max start to appear so maybe
0:45:00there's like enough going on in 2020 that they're like this is all we're
0:45:03going to do for now and then in 2021 we end up with the idea
0:45:08of you know these these end up getting converged together
0:45:10where you can build them in a single binary and they can basically be on
0:45:14on any of the you know on the mac app store the ios app store maybe the app
0:45:18stores come together in some way um and that makes sense so it's not a lot
0:45:22of new stuff here it feels a little bit more
0:45:25like this is kind of apple's um rollout strategy in terms of some
0:45:29milestones like so that they can constrain what the um
0:45:34what the work is for 2019 like they know there's going to be more work required
0:45:37in 2020 and 2021 so they're they're setting their agenda for what's
0:45:42going to fit into 2020 which 2019 which presumably they have now
0:45:45right like yeah wwc coming in uh you know kind of soon
0:45:51at this point i mean i know it's four months away
0:45:54but uh it's coming soon three it's all yeah it's almost three months away so
0:45:58um so yeah i i i'm a little bit baffled by some of the details here but
0:46:04it's not surprising this is going to be we've said it this is a many years
0:46:08process of trying to unify the application
0:46:10platforms you know is it three years probably more like five years to get to
0:46:15a very different place where there's a unified
0:46:18apple application platform which doesn't necessarily mean that the mac
0:46:21application uh platform will go away but that they
0:46:25the the new one is this unified uh thing across ios and mac so if
0:46:33ipad apps come to the mac there is a question
0:46:37about if any changes will be made to the mac to make ipad apps feel more
0:46:44at home and this is an article that you wrote about a couple of weeks ago and
0:46:48we've been saving this topic and it's kind of
0:46:50perfectly dovetails with this marzipan uh extension of the marzipan rumors so
0:46:56you pose the question in a mac wall column
0:46:58what if apple uses mac os 10.15 to further unify the interfaces of its
0:47:05platforms so let's not say and what we're not
0:47:09saying here is this is the unification but what if it
0:47:13was a little bit more like when apple did that back to the mac event
0:47:17where they introduced a bunch of ios-like designs to applications on the
0:47:22mac so like is it a sensible path to
0:47:26consider that marzipan might work a little bit more easily
0:47:31if the operating systems share some common design elements at least
0:47:36yeah and i think marzipan is not necessarily even the reason you do it
0:47:40but i think the reason you do it is that apple wants consistency across its
0:47:45product lines and marzipan is a symptom of the fact that apple has
0:47:49decided that it wants much more
0:47:53similarity between mac and ios products than maybe it has had
0:47:57before and you're right the mac to the mac was a great example of like no we
0:48:00want to make the um the mac have stuff that's going
0:48:05to be familiar to ios users there are way more ios users than mac
0:48:08users right so there's a huge advantage for apple
0:48:11and having max feel more like ios and i know that makes mac
0:48:15users uncomfortable and i am one of them you know a mac user i'm not super
0:48:19uncomfortable because i like ios too i think
0:48:21i think apple's theory is most mac users like ios and
0:48:25you know and ios users would be more comfortable on the mac if it was more
0:48:28like ios therefore they should push in that direction and
0:48:32so marzipan is an example where the app platform comes over but
0:48:35this article was like do you also at this point start to say
0:48:40there's stuff in the mac that is not really
0:48:43anything like um ios and maybe it could be more like ios are there other
0:48:48features that we could make a little more
0:48:51you know apple like more like unified across just because
0:48:55it's better if people don't say well wait a second your apple why is
0:48:59why do you do it this way on this device and this way on the other device
0:49:02which i think is a strong argument like oh yeah we shouldn't do that
0:49:05we should probably be these all these devices should probably be as similar as
0:49:09possible in terms of the language they use the
0:49:11interfaces they use to do certain things so i tried to imagine it and this is one
0:49:15of those things where it's like all the things that will infuriate
0:49:17long time mac users if they're in the next version of mac os
0:49:21right like what did you do why is it like this now
0:49:24but it kind of makes sense to do it that way
0:49:29okay i keep coming back to something that continues to be a surprise to me it
0:49:33was even more so this year when we look at the upgradees and we try
0:49:37and think of mac apps and what makes a mac app mac like and like even
0:49:42this year we awarded audio hijack the upgrade
0:49:46because it was the probably the most new uh well like the most mac like app we
0:49:51could think of and that was pulling from a pretty small
0:49:57selection for us i think of apps that were even new
0:50:01or being heavily updated um i feel like that
0:50:04you know it's unfortunate especially people that care about it
0:50:08but the time of being a mac like app is is changing and there are just not
0:50:15many of them anymore no the the we are in an era where um
0:50:19there are mac apps that are go-to apps for mac users
0:50:23and they will continue to be made and updated
0:50:26but there's not a lot of investment into new apps on the platform
0:50:30there is you know there there are some here and there
0:50:33but there's not a lot because um you know priority one is ios priority two is
0:50:39probably android priority three is a web app to get you everywhere else
0:50:43maybe priority four is windows and there's mac at priority five for a lot of
0:50:47companies that's the truth of it is mac and windows are not really high
0:50:51priorities but ios and android are and so you know the mac being
0:50:57maintenance of the existing rich apps that are out there and then an
0:51:03influx of new stuff that um that comes over from ios i mean
0:51:06that's the idea that's the idea plus again i'll point out
0:51:09like if you love the iphone and the ipad apple should have an in on you as a
0:51:16customer to get you if you want a laptop or a desktop to buy one of theirs
0:51:20but the advantage there is that their um their devices on the mac side
0:51:27are reminiscent of ios so that there's a familiarity there
0:51:30that kind of doesn't exist right now um and so
0:51:34that was that was my thought with this list was like you know multitasking
0:51:40things i've already got full screen and and split view but like could you do a
0:51:43slide over idea where you you dock an app and you
0:51:46you can you swipe it out with your trackpad or whatever from the side and
0:51:49it slides out and you click on something and then you
0:51:51you slide it away that would be a familiar thing for ipad users or
0:51:55um like uh making notification center more ios like making control center
0:52:02uh which is currently what we call icons on the right side of the menu bar
0:52:07like making that more explicitly control center
0:52:10and having a different interface for it than is than is currently there now that
0:52:13will break a lot of long-standing kind of mac
0:52:17uh you user interface conventions but i kinda i can see it i can see apple
0:52:23saying actually we're going to change what the
0:52:25menu bar is and what the status bar is with the icons and we're going to make it
0:52:31uh more you know refined and more ios like
0:52:35and then the big one is the touch screen thing which i keep talking about touch
0:52:40screens and i i don't know for sure that apple
0:52:42will do them but if again to back up and say i'm an ipad user
0:52:46and iphone user and now i want to get a laptop or a desktop
0:52:49and i want to ideally you know apple would be where i would go because i'm
0:52:53comfortable with apple's platforms but then i see apple's laptop and it doesn't
0:52:56it's not a touch screen and it doesn't look anything like
0:52:59anything that i use on on iphone and ipad and in fact the windows
0:53:03laptops that are out there and the windows desktops that are out there are
0:53:07more like it in the sense that they have a big you know have a touch interface
0:53:12that is at least sort of familiar um it's not a completely different
0:53:16interface to me so i you know again i look at that and i
0:53:20say adding touch to the mix uh with the marzipan
0:53:24apps not as the primary interaction method
0:53:26but as an interaction method i think it's got to be on the table
0:53:31so i assume this is not in your mind a huge redesign
0:53:35of mac os or a new operating system this is like
0:53:39something again i brought it up earlier but something more like when
0:53:44they brought some ios design to the mac a while ago
0:53:48i think that's it i think the idea here is to incrementally update mac os
0:53:55to be more like ios i and when they've said we're not merging them together i
0:54:00believe them but they are i think you know pushing the
0:54:05application platform together and perhaps
0:54:08pushing a lot of the interface conventions together i think what apple
0:54:11means when it says they're not merging them together is
0:54:14there is probably not going to be a day it five years from now sometime in the
0:54:182020s where apple is going to say i'm sorry you can't run bb edit anymore
0:54:24right just or or maybe audio hijack right no you can't run a classic
0:54:30uh mac os app only stuff that comes from ios will run
0:54:35anymore like i don't think that is where they're going
0:54:39at least in the medium term maybe in the long i mean long term everything changes
0:54:43but i i would imagine at that point they
0:54:45would have provided ways for apps like bb edit to to
0:54:51adopt new technologies because bb edit was a literally a classic mac os app
0:54:55and it over the course of a decade plus they you know they very slowly moved
0:55:03onto the new systems that apple was building and apple provided a way for
0:55:06them to do it and that was true with a lot of those classic mac apps there were
0:55:09ways to come across and now bb edits never gone
0:55:13away it's never been non-functional but it it very slowly evolved to use modern
0:55:18features so that may happen something like that but
0:55:20i that's how i read when apple says we're not going to
0:55:24merge the operating systems is that they're going to make it so that the
0:55:28operating systems have as much in common as possible
0:55:31but that they understand that there's a subset of the mac market that wants the
0:55:37stuff that ios doesn't provide and that their their choices are going to
0:55:40be to just keep that around or to provide it on ios so it doesn't
0:55:44matter and you know i think that's a long-term plan long-term goal
0:55:48but it could also be that they're like yeah you know we're never going to do
0:55:51the terminal on ios and that's fine because we'll
0:55:54we'll keep it on the mac and you can use it there but um but i think
0:55:58likening this to back to the mac is the right way to say it which is
0:56:00this is a progression of things that will be added to the mac
0:56:04to make it more in parity with ios and more familiar for people
0:56:12and like i get it again i think there is a very strong argument maybe the
0:56:16strongest argument is apple's products should feel like one
0:56:21another on a certain fundamental level and because of the history of where the
0:56:24mac came from and where ios came from they don't now apple mentioned last year
0:56:28at wwdc that one of the things that they've been working on
0:56:32and continue to work on is this effort that is almost invisible to users
0:56:37which is to get the subsystems of the mac and ios
0:56:41back in parity because essentially they forked off of
0:56:45mac os 10 in 2007 when they built the iphone and they've
0:56:50been drifting apart and they're trying to push those back
0:56:53together and i think marzipan is a reason why
0:56:56but i think also that's the idea like it's better if everything is just more
0:57:00consistent if the way that all apple's products work is it has
0:57:06has things in common it also saves them a lot of effort to not be maintaining
0:57:10you know these completely separate code bases if they can
0:57:14so it's not it's not a complete merger but it is that
0:57:18gradual seeping in of more and more ios conventions and you know i think they
0:57:25could do it badly and they could do it well i don't think it's a fundamentally
0:57:28bad idea and i think there's some benefit in
0:57:31saying just like an ipad as an ipad user like having synced up the iphone and
0:57:35ipad behavior in the last updates i don't love the
0:57:40control centers in the top right corner everywhere because i don't love that
0:57:42interaction but i like that it's in the same place on
0:57:46both my ipad my iphone and it wasn't before
0:57:49when you mentioned bb edit something popped into my head which was like
0:57:54huh i don't remember bb edit appearing in the app store and it
0:58:00was on stage at wwdc right like that was one of the apps
0:58:03transmit appeared a little while ago office
0:58:06as well and as of an hour ago there was a software update to bb edit
0:58:12which sandboxes the app so it's moving to the app store so like
0:58:17that this is the foot this is the step they needed to go through right it was
0:58:20to it's progression right sandboxed app but
0:58:22it was just like oh yeah okay i forgot about that and so yeah it looks like
0:58:26it's still coming i guess because they've gone through that
0:58:29my understanding with some of those announcements is that they announced
0:58:31that they're going to do it but that some of the behind the scenes and then
0:58:34not just bb edit but also like the panic apps is
0:58:36um that it requires changes in mac os to allow them to ask for certain
0:58:42powers that they weren't and this is the this is the effect of
0:58:45policy change on software which is they had to apple had to say okay we're
0:58:50gonna allow apps to ask for more permission but then
0:58:53they have to build in to the operating system the permissions
0:58:57and the requesting of them it's not just a policy decision it's like a policy
0:59:01decision that then is an implementation issue in
0:59:04the os so my understanding about you know panic and bb edit and other apps
0:59:08like that that were called out in june uh is that some of those features
0:59:13were in the shipping version of um of uh of mac os 10.14
0:59:20but some of them were not some of them were in a
0:59:23a later release and i i was always unclear about whether that meant 10 15
0:59:28or whether that meant 10 14 2 or 10 14 3 but uh i definitely got the word even
0:59:35last june that like not all of those apps weren't all going
0:59:38to be able to go on the app store immediately because it wasn't just an
0:59:40issue of oh well they'll ship mohavi and then we'll be ready to go it was an
0:59:44issue of they got to ship these particular things
0:59:47that we need and then we can be in the app store again so it was kind of a
0:59:50statement of a principle but that's also a great a
0:59:53great sign right that and that's a good example of
0:59:55of what i was saying before about bb edit too which is like the world
0:59:59may not change overnight it may be a slow progression but i do believe that
1:00:02apple is kind of committed to allowing these apps that that people
1:00:07need to continue to exist they may just you
1:00:10know there may just be continually every year a little
1:00:13bit of drift that has to happen and that i think that happens in software anyway
1:00:16right like there's even if it's not a a global thing where
1:00:20you know that your company is going from point a to point b
1:00:22your platform vendor you know platform vendors do
1:00:26still make changes every year that software developers have to
1:00:29deal with so it's it's a little bit different but not
1:00:33necessarily enormously different all right we should do some hashtag
1:00:37ask upgrade questions to finish off today's episode but the
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1:02:42so our first hashtag ask upgrade question
1:02:45comes from norista who would like to know jason
1:02:49can they get a two-minute user review of the bedit sleep monitor
1:02:53sure um i bought one i'm gonna write it up at some point
1:02:56this is apple owns this company this is an example of apple buying a company and
1:03:00yet keeping its uh product kind of on the outside
1:03:03it's not apple branded or anything they just did a new version
1:03:06you can buy it in the apple store right like you can it's not like one of those
1:03:10ones where they're like ah we'll just run it down until it's done
1:03:12like no this is like just a brand that they own it's interesting yeah it's
1:03:17interesting so i um i bought it because i was kind of
1:03:20curious and i like the idea of sort of logging
1:03:23when am i getting a good night's sleep and not and am i getting
1:03:26am i waking up in the middle of the night and all these things it's a little
1:03:29pad that you put on your mattress basically and it's got
1:03:33a usb cord that comes out and you plug that in
1:03:37and on the on the plug end is basically like a bluetooth thing and then you have
1:03:41to connect it to a device um what they want you to do is connect it
1:03:44to your iphone and then it syncs the health data with all of your other
1:03:47health data and from your apple watch and all of that
1:03:49and monitors your your uh your sleep and it has to be by your bed
1:03:54in in range of the the bedit dongle because you're doing
1:03:57bluetooth le to connect to the sensor and get the data and collect it and it
1:04:03also actually uses the phone microphone uh to do snoring
1:04:07monitor so it listens and it logs when there's
1:04:10snores um so you can see how much snoring you
1:04:13did in the night as well which i think is pretty clever um i i
1:04:18i like it i don't love it one of my big problems with it is
1:04:21speaking of ipad apps and iphone apps it does not work it does not have an ipad
1:04:27app it really wants you to use your iphone
1:04:29and you know what that means that means it is making a fundamental assumption
1:04:32that you sleep with your iphone next to your bed
1:04:35i i don't i don't and so i paired it with my ipad
1:04:40but that means that my ipad is not connected to all of my
1:04:43fancy home data and the health data right to health can it
1:04:47exactly and yeah that's what i meant and uh and that's not great
1:04:51and uh and i'm have to use it in the blown up
1:04:54ipad compatibility mode which is all which is dumb because they don't have a
1:04:57proper ipad do you have to leave the app open all night well so it it is using a
1:05:03background task to do the uh snore monitoring and
1:05:08talk to the l bluetooth le thing so you have to have
1:05:12run it and not have it be killed which i haven't had a problem with
1:05:16if you kill the bedded app and go to sleep
1:05:21it won't log you though it has to it has to have been launched
1:05:24it's like probably the last thing you do before you go to bed is is open it and
1:05:28then you like can go back to your home screen and
1:05:30close it and then it will just run in the back which is not great
1:05:32it should it should just work and it doesn't and that part that part bugs me
1:05:35it's a little like it should be more like the apple watch
1:05:38where it just they they get to talk to each other and i think maybe that is an
1:05:41effect of it being owned by apple but not apple proper
1:05:44that they're not allowed to do that um but the the fact that i have to use my
1:05:49ipad and that my ipad is not part of the great health
1:05:52database i'd like to be able to sync it across
1:05:55all my devices and stuff and that's not i think i think you can do so that's
1:05:59silly if you put the better app on your iphone
1:06:03and like have an account can then the phone not write the data to health or is
1:06:06it like has to be where it's performed i don't think yeah i don't think it it
1:06:10travels that's annoying i haven't tried that but i don't think
1:06:13that travels and i i think this is just a fundamental problem where like i mean
1:06:16maybe they discovered most people sleep with their phone next to their bed but i
1:06:19don't i i have my phone on a charger in the
1:06:21kitchen because i have an ipad and so i don't need my phone
1:06:25i have my ipad instead so that's that's weird but anyway that's there's the
1:06:28short review of the bed-at-sleep monitor it is
1:06:30i i think it works pretty well and i think it's very clever and i i was just
1:06:34curious about how it would work in terms of monitoring
1:06:36my my sleep and when i go to bed and when i wake up and am i getting a good
1:06:40night's sleep and am i waking up in the middle of the night
1:06:42and you know all of that seems to work pretty well after a day or two i got
1:06:45used to the feeling that the pad was there i and now
1:06:49i just ignore it i don't even notice that it's there
1:06:54so dominic asks with the rumored wireless charging coming to the airpods
1:06:58combined with the uh rumor that we spoke about like the
1:07:02iphone being able to charge like samsung's doing this so the s10 you
1:07:06can take the galaxy buds and put them on the back of the phone
1:07:09and they charge up it's like bilateral charging is the phrase so dominic wants
1:07:13to know do we think that the next airpods could be the first
1:07:16portless product from apple
1:07:20i think not this version no but maybe version three i feel like that
1:07:28the airpods are probably the product i can imagine
1:07:32going all wireless first i mean let's not include the apple watch because
1:07:36technically the apple watch doesn't have any ports in it and the
1:07:40apple pencil yeah i mean i think it's like those are
1:07:45the apple pencil yes that 100 works but i get dominic's question of like
1:07:50a product that has a port having it removed i think that's probably a better
1:07:54way to think about it so you know and again it's like let's the
1:07:58apple pencil i think we're gonna we're just gonna
1:08:00pull out from this conversation because like yes it had a lightning port but you
1:08:04plug it in to something it was it's always been a
1:08:07little bit of an outlier even though let's just say the next
1:08:10the next yeah all right there you go thank you so uh the next one but can you
1:08:15imagine like what can you imagine this happening with the airpods i think it's
1:08:19it feels inevitable to me but not with the next one
1:08:22yeah i i it's going to be a while because you're going to need to sell it
1:08:25you you're going to want to sell it to people who don't have a you know don't
1:08:29have to buy a wireless charger and don't have a phone like
1:08:32even if the next generation of iphones can do wireless charging of devices like
1:08:36the samsung s10 can like that's not your own that's not your whole
1:08:41market that is slow charging coming from the phones so you wouldn't want to
1:08:47charge like you'd have to like leave it overnight on the back of the phone it
1:08:50doesn't make sense oh you leave it on a qi charger like
1:08:52it's it's uh it's less than ideal but i think that it makes sense for this
1:08:56product to go that way in the future um but i
1:08:59don't think we're there yet i think i think the money of people who
1:09:04don't have wireless chargers is more important to apple
1:09:08than making a super cool thing without a port that requires
1:09:11another accessory in order to charge it and they're not going to put a charger
1:09:15in the box with it so that's yeah i think it's going to be
1:09:18a while james asks do you think apple will continue to update the imac pro
1:09:23after the new mac pro is released i do i think the imac pro is going to
1:09:29stick around i think it won't get an update
1:09:32you know super often but i think that there's
1:09:35i mean you could argue that the imac pro is more
1:09:40uh is what apple wanted to make i was just gonna say this
1:09:44it is worth remembering the imac pro is the computer that apple will not force
1:09:47to make that was the one they decided to make
1:09:50and they were basically forced to make the mac right i mean the argument is
1:09:53that maybe they have changed direction now and therefore
1:09:55since they're making a mac pro they don't need an imac pro but
1:09:58um i think apple will watch the sales figures because i think the argument is
1:10:03strong that you don't need a mac pro and you could just use an imac pro but if
1:10:09everybody who's in that market buys a mac pro with an external monitor and the
1:10:13imac pro sales falter then maybe they could maybe they
1:10:17would stop doing it i would also argue that um i feel like
1:10:20the imac pro is also pointing a direction for the future of the imac
1:10:24in terms of removing all spinning storage space and redesigning the
1:10:28the fans and all of that so um i i think that there's some
1:10:32you know it's not impossible that the ipad pro will disappear but or i mean
1:10:35the uh sorry the uh imac pro will disappear but i think it's
1:10:39it's less likely and um that it's more likely that apple really
1:10:44does believe that the imac is the ideal desktop and that they're
1:10:48uh they'll continue to push it but but you know who knows
1:10:51who knows but um i think i think in the end the sales will tell
1:10:54um we don't know whether apple's opinion about this has changed but i do
1:10:58i do want to point out that yes apple initially
1:11:02thought the imac pro could just replace the mac pro and they may still feel
1:11:06that it's the real you know product that's going to sell well
1:11:09um but imac pro sales will tell
1:11:14tom asks how do you record and publish the show so quickly do you just get it
1:11:18in one take with no editing i don't understand the no take question
1:11:22as such but i do understand why people ask this
1:11:27because we do publish upgrade pretty quickly upgrades usually published
1:11:31kind of within 90 minutes of us stopping recording
1:11:35right and the way that we do that is i edit the show immediately
1:11:39and the way that i kind of take stock of what needs to be edited is during our
1:11:45conversation i'm writing down time codes of all of
1:11:48the things that i need to go back and fix and this includes
1:11:51when we mess stuff up or when we cross talk over each other quite excessively
1:11:55um i go back and then go and fix all of that stuff and publish it
1:11:59um i like upgrade to go out as quickly as possible
1:12:03i don't know why i feel that way but i always have um
1:12:06i kind of i pride ourselves on the ability to do it well
1:12:10it's very timely yeah it is very timely and that that's part of it is that we
1:12:14can get the we can catch the monday evening commute
1:12:17in the us um and we're talking about stuff that's going on right now so um
1:12:23i think there's an advantage in that like anytime like atp
1:12:28um there tends to be what a day and a little bit gap between episode
1:12:33recording and release they record on a wednesday night it usually goes out
1:12:36friday morning i think yeah sounds about right um and you know
1:12:40that sometimes that bites them sometimes that
1:12:43bites them because news happens after they record
1:12:46and before they release and i really like the idea if
1:12:50at all possible of um of getting the show out
1:12:55immediately because then it's out and it's of the moment
1:12:58and it's about what's happening right now and if something happens tomorrow
1:13:01well of course we didn't cover it because we already released our episode
1:13:05and then we just have to deal with it um incomparable i record way in advance
1:13:09and although i don't do a uh a super heavy edit on that most of the
1:13:13time i do spend you know several hours with it usually
1:13:16because they're way more people two people
1:13:18podcasts are also way easier to edit and then sometimes you have shows that are
1:13:21much more topical and are a heavier edit is more appropriate
1:13:25and cortex is an example of that where you and gray you know are not super
1:13:28timely and you guys um sweat that a lot more
1:13:32plus your session i believe is a lot less
1:13:36you know free flowing whereas ours is pretty close to the final
1:13:40yeah it's like atp sounds better i think than our show some of the like a lot of
1:13:46time because marco is really going in and like fine tuning it
1:13:50sure they've also got three people so they got more cleanup to do yep
1:13:53but i do think that this show does sound really good and we take
1:13:56a lot of efforts in making that work the best that we can but
1:14:00it's different so like it takes me probably about an hour
1:14:03an hour an hour a bit depending on the episode to
1:14:07to edit this and publish it if i edited this show the same way that i edit
1:14:11cortex which is i think closer to what marco does
1:14:15we'd be looking at maybe four hours and that's not really
1:14:19the way that i want to do it because that means i couldn't get it out the
1:14:21same day because we we start recording at my 5 p.m so and it
1:14:25changes the um it changes the dynamic of the the show
1:14:28it becomes a show where you're spending four hours a week on editing instead of
1:14:32one or one and a half and you know the like i
1:14:34said the incomparable i put in time like that because i've got a large panel and
1:14:37because they're often a lot of kind of content decisions that
1:14:40i've got to make um it varies from show to show i've also got weekly podcasts
1:14:44that i do where there's almost no editing
1:14:46and uh you know that it's the it's the choices you make
1:14:49that because it is it is a cost to go through and part of the
1:14:53the calculation is how much can i improve this
1:14:57versus how much time am i spending on it because you could
1:15:01spend four hours every monday evening not having your dinner and editing
1:15:05upgrade how much better would it be and the answer is not a lot better
1:15:08because it's there are only the two of us
1:15:11and we mostly do it pretty much straight through and there are just
1:15:14a few little nips and tucks here and there and so you could spend more time
1:15:17but why yeah most of the differences would get
1:15:20out of that not many people would notice yes which is the beauty of of fixing
1:15:26like when i do a podcast with eight people on it and i edit it so it's like
1:15:28wow nobody ever interrupted everybody and
1:15:31everyone let everyone finish and it's like yeah that didn't happen
1:15:34right like i made it seem like that but it wasn't like that but with this
1:15:39it's not um i i think nobody would notice at all
1:15:42because it would be little examples of crosstalk or little nips and tucks here
1:15:46it would be it i think it would not be worth your
1:15:48time quite frankly now rick allen in the chat
1:15:52is asking another question uh rick wants to know if i listen to
1:15:55the final version i don't anymore because
1:15:59all right so like i feel like i'm dooming myself on this one
1:16:04i trust my editing now um because i cannot remember the last time
1:16:11i made a mistake in a show that i had to go back and fix it
1:16:15because i edit so much that i know my process
1:16:19and i know how to do it and i've built in enough checks and balances
1:16:24you know into the way that i edit and like different checks that i'll do to
1:16:27the file before it goes out um that most people would think that i
1:16:32i've lost my mind sometimes with some of the checks that i do because i but these
1:16:35are all checks based upon mistakes i've made in the past sure and
1:16:40it becomes a uh it becomes a like a safety net like i will check i
1:16:44don't listen to the shows back that i edit because i again i
1:16:48don't have that kind of time and i'm fairly confident in my workflow
1:16:53but do i open the final export and look at the
1:16:56waveform yes i do because what if there's a big gap or
1:17:00something weird that exported wrong i can see it and then i can go in and fix
1:17:05it and that does happen from time to time
1:17:06um forecast which i use and you use to encode mp3
1:17:10marco actually built in a uh a silent sensor and it will actually
1:17:16say warning there's a three second long silence
1:17:19at 24 minutes in the file and that's a nice little safety net although i would
1:17:23see that in the in the waveform so there's some of that but
1:17:25um yeah in a 90-minute podcast i don't spend 90 minutes listening back to it
1:17:29when you edit it you can listen to some of it enough to spot check it but
1:17:32it's more of a spot check than it is anything else
1:17:35yeah so that's that's podcast editing for you folks
1:17:39uh maybe i tell one last little thing on this because i like talking about it and
1:17:43then maybe we'll wrap up on this so because of the way that me and jason
1:17:48edit and because of the way that we both know
1:17:51i'll edit the show we have this funny little thing that
1:17:53happens that you'll only notice if you listen to the show live
1:17:57which i refer to as like the editor's prerogative
1:18:02uh or like kind of like the the the kind of the fortune of people that edit shows
1:18:07so both me and jason know that if because we remove crosstalk we'll pick
1:18:13the best thing that's said so if me and jason are talking over each
1:18:18other and sometimes you will hear us say i
1:18:21can make entire points for like maybe five or ten seconds sometimes if
1:18:26the two of us just talking yeah and we both know that i will go back
1:18:30and pick the best one of those but this is something that typically
1:18:35people that edit podcasts do way worse to each other because we are both
1:18:40safe in the knowledge that i will fix it later on
1:18:43and i think it's just this funny thing that we do but this is totally how
1:18:49you get used to the way that a show is edited so
1:18:53with cortex i very frequently will take another shot at saying something if i
1:18:58kind of messed it up in a way that doesn't really happen when
1:19:02i record this show because my brain is like in a different
1:19:05mode because there's way more of like what i'm saying will be
1:19:10committed to the audio unless something terrible happens where if i know i have
1:19:13the safety net of like mike in the future will listen to this
1:19:16and he'll fix it then i will allow myself to kind of flub
1:19:20and then be like okay let me redo that and say it again but the funny thing
1:19:23that happens with this show is me and jason just talk over each other
1:19:28and then move on knowing that i'll fix it later on which is just kind of fun
1:19:31you'll pull it apart or you'll find out that one of us
1:19:34didn't need to make that noise because it was right like you may and that's
1:19:37editor's prerogative and i do that too i do a lot on the incomparable of like
1:19:40uncovering jokes and sometimes two people make the same joke and i'm like
1:19:44that one's better and i'll just make a decision it's like sorry other person
1:19:47you also made that joke and nobody's going to hear it now
1:19:50but that's just how it has to be and that's that's also a part of it i did
1:19:53make a new year's resolution of a sort this year which is if
1:19:58because i default to what you described about um
1:20:02our show which is to just let it go it's live for the most part and you fix
1:20:05egregious things later i did make a little bit of a new year's
1:20:08resolution to do a little bit more of the can we stop
1:20:13because that was wrong just because what i was finding is that i
1:20:17know something was wrong i let it go because i don't want to create an edit
1:20:20point and make more work for you and then we spend a week having people
1:20:24complain that we got something wrong so i have tried to do a little bit more of
1:20:27that because but i still think that there's
1:20:29value in it being the default because if you don't think of it that way
1:20:32what happens with cortex is exactly what happens which is suddenly
1:20:35every five minutes you're stopping to say can i rephrase that let me do that
1:20:38again and then you've got a whole list of edits
1:20:41and then you have to be sure that you edit it diligently otherwise you're hey
1:20:45way wait let me every down on atp someone will
1:20:48rephrase something and it'll get through the edit and they'll be like oh
1:20:51you missed that one right and it's like i'd rather not do that but sometimes you
1:20:54have to sometimes you do all right should we
1:20:57should we redo that part jason do you want to just read that whole
1:21:01question it's not gonna get any better so let's just go with that one all right
1:21:05thanks everybody for submitting their questions this week you can ask
1:21:08questions of us with the hashtag ask upgrade and then we'll go into a
1:21:12document for us to pull from later on and if you want to open the show
1:21:16you can use a hashtag snell talk for that one to ask some some random
1:21:21question that may find its way into a future episode
1:21:24and if you want to find jason online you can go to six colors dot com and the
1:21:27incomparable dot com jason is at j snell on twitter you can
1:21:31find me on at imike i m y k e and you can find this show
1:21:36many other shows above me and jason host over at relay.fm
1:21:40you can maybe find something new there to pick up for your commute for your
1:21:44dishwashing time your lawnmower time whatever it is that you do
1:21:48when you listen to podcasts there's something else there for you i'm sure
1:21:51thanks again to green chef lunar display and squarespace
1:21:55for their support of this show and we'll be back next time until then
1:21:59say goodbye jason snow you're gonna edit this part out right yeah 100
1:22:07[ Music ]