223: Impressive and Stupid


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 223.

00:00:13   Today's show is brought to you by FreshBooks, Lunar Display, and HopSee.

00:00:17   My name is Myke Hurley. I'm joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:21   Hi Myke, welcome back.

00:00:22   Thank you, Jason Snell.

00:00:24   I hope you enjoyed your assignment.

00:00:26   It was a very good assignment, one of the best assignments I've had this year.

00:00:30   Thank you very much.

00:00:31   You're welcome.

00:00:32   We have a #SnellTalk question from Peter.

00:00:36   And Peter wants to know, Jason, will your holiday lights be smart lights or dumb lights this year?

00:00:43   Oh, great question.

00:00:44   And the answer is, well, first off, do you mean the lights that are outside or the lights that are like online Christmas tree?

00:00:50   I will ask for both. Thank you.

00:00:52   Okay. Well, the answer is the same, which is that they're both on...

00:00:57   What did you...

00:01:00   I just, you know, I thought I would take them in turn.

00:01:02   So on the outside, they're attached to a smart switch.

00:01:05   So they're dumb lights, but they're attached to a smart switch.

00:01:07   On the inside, however, they're also dumb lights attached to a smart switch.

00:01:12   Oh.

00:01:12   So yes.

00:01:13   Too varied.

00:01:14   And then I have them on a schedule.

00:01:16   I have them both on a schedule now.

00:01:17   So which leads to the thing that delights me the most about this time of year, which is that I come out in the morning to make the tea and make breakfast.

00:01:29   And it's still a little dark out because it's winter and the tree is on.

00:01:34   The tree is lit up.

00:01:34   Oh, that's interesting.

00:01:36   Because I have a schedule in HomeKit set to turn the tree on like 15 minutes or 30 minutes before sunrise.

00:01:44   So it's on, it's not on overnight, but it's on when I get up in the morning, which is very nice.

00:01:49   And then we do have also the lights on the outside.

00:01:52   I put those on a smart switch.

00:01:53   Those are on a separate schedule.

00:01:54   So they go on in the morning for a little bit, and then they're on in the evening until, you know, late in the evening when we turn them off.

00:02:02   And this weekend, I had the blower and the inflatable...not inflatable, the Tubeman version of Santa Claus.

00:02:11   You know, one of those guys that the air dancers that flap their arms.

00:02:14   The wacky wailing, inflatable arm flailing.

00:02:16   Yeah, he was on the roof for a little while.

00:02:18   He'll go back up later, but it rained overnight, so I took him down before the rain came.

00:02:23   But I invested, Myke, invested in a blower because it was my dream and my daughter's dream that we would one day own our own Tubeman.

00:02:32   And for Halloween, it was an orange Tubeman.

00:02:34   But then I realized I could buy other tube creatures, including Santa Claus.

00:02:39   So I bought a Santa Claus.

00:02:41   And now Santa dances on our roof sometimes.

00:02:43   I love so much that you and your daughter shared a dream to have a wacky wailing inflatable Tubeman.

00:02:51   I think that's so wonderful.

00:02:53   I've always liked the inflatable, the Tubeman, the flapping air dancer Tubeman.

00:02:58   I've always enjoyed them, and I've always joked about how, "Oh, you know what? One of these days I'm going to get one of those because that is hilarious and I love it."

00:03:05   And that would never come to anything except that, yes, my daughter agrees with me.

00:03:11   And she's like, "Oh, it's so great."

00:03:12   And then I showed her and she's like, "Oh, we got it!"

00:03:16   She's very excited about it.

00:03:18   So she and I are united on this while the other members of our household probably think it's ridiculous.

00:03:22   They're not that expensive and they're not that big.

00:03:24   And then you can have—why not have a Tubeman in your life, at least if you're me and Jamie?

00:03:34   So we do.

00:03:35   And now it's Santa for the holidays.

00:03:37   So I have my Christmas tree lights hooked up to a Wiimote.

00:03:43   We just have—I don't have a use for a Wiimote other than this.

00:03:48   I bought these when I got my Echo, and I've never found anything else that I want them for.

00:03:53   I have like seven of those smart switches now.

00:03:55   They're doing all sorts of things in my house now.

00:03:58   I would like to—I would really like to use them more, but there is nothing that I really particularly need to have that kind of control over.

00:04:07   So I've got—most of them are acting as timers.

00:04:11   They're not like super smart.

00:04:12   They're like just internet interface for timers.

00:04:15   So most of mine—like the lights are like that.

00:04:17   My smart switch is like that.

00:04:19   I have—in the winter, I have a dehumidifier that's attached to a smart switch, and it's the same thing.

00:04:25   It basically goes on after—in the bedroom, it goes on after we're out of there during the day in order to get the moisture out of that room.

00:04:33   You know, I had it wired, and I might do this again at some point.

00:04:37   I actually had it wired so it was using the data from the weather station console that's in that room to actually like literally turn itself on and off based on the humidity data, but it's got its own humidity sensor.

00:04:47   I can set that.

00:04:48   It's fine.

00:04:48   So I'm not doing a lot of like super sophisticated stuff where things are turning on because other things are happening, but I do—I am using those.

00:04:56   And in fact, for a while when my Mac Mini was occasionally just turning itself off or locking up, I had a smart switch on the Mac Mini plug so that I could remotely turn it off and then turn it back on and get it to boot back up.

00:05:10   I might—I don't think I've told you this, but I have a Mac Mini coming on Wednesday.

00:05:15   I listen to Connected.

00:05:16   I know all about it.

00:05:17   So I have a Mac Mini coming, and it's going to be on all the time.

00:05:20   We'll get to talking about on all the time computers in a minute, by the way.

00:05:24   So I might do that for mine.

00:05:25   I might put my—because I have two WEMOs.

00:05:27   And you can run Homebridge, which will put them on HomeKit.

00:05:31   Yeah, so this was the next part.

00:05:32   Because WEMO doesn't do—I don't think WEMO—they may sell a bridge, but out of the box, they don't do HomeKit.

00:05:37   No, because this is the other thing.

00:05:39   It's like I would like a switch that could work with both HomeKit and the Echo, but that doesn't exist in the UK right now.

00:05:49   There is a company that will do this.

00:05:51   There are a couple of companies in the US, I believe, that will do it, but all of the switches on Apple's website—

00:05:59   so basically all the HomeKit officially-ordained ones don't work with the Echo, which is a shame.

00:06:06   So what I did just do just now, because I hadn't thought of this before, is to put the WEMO on a schedule.

00:06:12   So we just have, like you just say to the Echo, "Turn on Christmas."

00:06:17   Because we can't—I think I maybe spoke about this last year, but we did have "Turn on the tree,"

00:06:22   but for some reason, just with Adina's accent, the Echo thinks she says "Turn on the three" every time,

00:06:28   and it just would—there was nothing she could do.

00:06:31   It didn't matter how she said it, so it just ended up being "Turn on Christmas," which I think is hilarious.

00:06:37   But it is sad in the evening when you ask to turn off Christmas.

00:06:40   "Turn off Christmas."

00:06:42   Just a sad sentence.

00:06:43   But now we have it on a timer, so we won't need to do it.

00:06:45   And I don't know why I hadn't thought of that. It just never really crossed my mind.

00:06:49   We do have—we have our Hue lights on a timer as well, anyway, like we'd like that,

00:06:52   and I think maybe I just hadn't considered doing it to the Christmas tree.

00:06:56   That was a great question from Peter.

00:06:58   Peter, thank you for sending that question in.

00:07:00   You can be great like Peter and send in a question to open any episode of Upgrade.

00:07:04   #SnarlTalk is what you need.

00:07:06   You just send out a tweet and it will be pulled in for a future episode.

00:07:10   I would like to extend my thanks to John Siracusa for filling in for me last week.

00:07:15   That—it was very kind of John to step in.

00:07:17   I really enjoyed listening to the episode.

00:07:19   And Jason, thank you for taking care of Dongle Town in my absence.

00:07:22   You were like the caretaker of Dongle Town over the past week.

00:07:26   Now I'm back and we can trade off shifts again, so thank you for doing that.

00:07:29   I kept the streets swept.

00:07:31   That's good.

00:07:32   There's no litter in Dongle Town.

00:07:35   Which is very important.

00:07:36   Which—so I will ask you, did you put your Mac to sleep or not?

00:07:43   Well, as was prophesied on that episode, I said to John, I think the reason that I don't

00:07:48   put it to sleep ultimately is that I have one of these switching power strips, which

00:07:52   I heard from a couple of people who were like, "What?"

00:07:54   I didn't know these existed, but they definitely exist.

00:07:56   Switching power strips where there is like a master outlet that it monitors for how much

00:08:01   power it's drawing, and then some of the outlets on that power switch are automatically

00:08:05   turned on or off based on the master outlet, which means that if you've got computer

00:08:11   peripherals that are externally powered and don't need to be on when the computer is

00:08:15   off, you can plug them into those outlets, and then when the computer goes off, they

00:08:19   go off.

00:08:19   And I have that for my iPod Hi-Fi, for example, because it actually—I can hear it making

00:08:24   a little like buzzing or hissing noise when the computer's off and it's still on.

00:08:29   And so I have it plugged in there.

00:08:31   It all comes back to the iPod Hi-Fi in the end, doesn't it?

00:08:35   So I like there was a moment in the show where I think you said that and John made a

00:08:39   comment and you just like blew past it.

00:08:41   It's like something about the great engineering of the iPod Hi-Fi.

00:08:45   Yeah, I mean, well, what can you say about it?

00:08:47   It's a failed product and all of these things about it, but it sounds pretty good on my

00:08:51   desk, which is why I do it, despite all the other ridiculous things.

00:08:53   And it turns out that was accurate, by the way, that when I tried to put my iMac Pro

00:08:59   to sleep at the end of the day on Monday, or yeah, last Monday after the show came out,

00:09:03   all the stuff stayed on.

00:09:07   And I don't know if it eventually would go off if the power consumption had dropped to

00:09:11   a low enough point or not, but I had that moment where I said, "Oh yeah, here we go.

00:09:16   This is why I don't do this, because I want to shut that thing off and then everything

00:09:20   else shuts off and then all the stuff that doesn't need to be on in my office is off."

00:09:25   And I like that.

00:09:26   I like that it just is controlled by the Mac going off.

00:09:29   So I will continue my daily shutdown, which John was not as against as he is against people

00:09:36   to turn off their iPhone when they put it in their pocket, or maybe people who use a

00:09:41   laptop and turn it off instead of just putting it to sleep.

00:09:44   I listened to everything, but my mind was not changed.

00:09:49   And I don't think you mentioned this on the episode you may have, but I know this is something

00:09:54   we've spoken about before.

00:09:55   I have all this audio gear attached to my iMac, which is powered by USB, and is turned

00:10:03   on whenever the Mac is on.

00:10:04   And there are probably things I could do and I could add in other switches or whatever,

00:10:10   but I don't really want to...

00:10:11   I just don't really feel the need to do it because my iMac just doesn't need to be on.

00:10:18   - Right.

00:10:19   And then you're right, like the USB interface, right?

00:10:21   Like having no power go to it is ideally the thing.

00:10:24   And what I don't want to have to do at the end of the day is put my Mac to sleep and

00:10:30   then walk over to the power strip and turn it off and then unplug my USB devices.

00:10:35   And although also would unplugging the USB devices when the Mac is asleep wake them up?

00:10:40   Maybe?

00:10:41   It's like, I just don't even want to get there.

00:10:43   I don't need the computer.

00:10:44   And as I said to Jon, part of this is behavioral, which is I like the idea of signing out at

00:10:49   the end of the day.

00:10:50   I can no longer...

00:10:51   I no longer pick up my bag, leave the office, go down in an elevator, walk to a bus stop

00:10:57   and ride a bus home.

00:10:58   Like now my home is six steps away from me.

00:11:02   So there is something psychological about shutting down my Mac because then I'm saying,

00:11:09   you know, there's a barrier between me and coming back to work in here.

00:11:12   And I find that valuable.

00:11:13   I'm signing out for the day.

00:11:14   It doesn't mean that I won't do work on the iPad in another room, but in the office, I'm

00:11:19   sort of like signing out of the office and saying, I'm not coming back and sitting at

00:11:23   my chair and bringing up all my documents.

00:11:26   I'm not coming back in here later.

00:11:28   And if I do a podcast or something later that night, I leave it on because I'm like, I'm

00:11:31   going to be back in here.

00:11:32   But if I'm done for the day, done, done, I like the feeling of having shut down the computer.

00:11:39   And it doesn't take very long to start it up anyway.

00:11:41   No, we are in complete agreement on this point.

00:11:46   I mean, and it's not about the idea of like thinking computers shouldn't be on or whatever,

00:11:52   right?

00:11:52   Because your Mac Mini is on all the time.

00:11:54   My Mac Mini will be on all the time.

00:11:55   Like I understand the value of that, which my iMac just doesn't need to be because it

00:12:00   just doesn't fall out for what I use it for.

00:12:02   All right.

00:12:03   So the upgrade is we'll mention it again when we mention it for a couple more weeks.

00:12:08   The voting is still open.

00:12:10   It will be open until December 24th, which when the voting will close as it stands right

00:12:15   now, if we continue collecting votes the way we have, this is going to be the biggest upgrade

00:12:21   is of all time, which I'm super excited about.

00:12:23   And I'm working on some fun things in the background.

00:12:26   We both are actually.

00:12:29   So there's a lot.

00:12:30   I'm really excited for the upgrade is I started making notes for my personal picks today.

00:12:35   The upgrade season is nearly upon us, everyone.

00:12:38   So you'll be looking out for for that episode.

00:12:42   We're doing it at the end of the year, right?

00:12:44   If I remember correctly, it's going to be or is it going to be our January 1st episode?

00:12:49   It's going to be our January 1st episode.

00:12:50   No, that's it.

00:12:51   31st.

00:12:52   New Year's Eve episode.

00:12:53   There we go.

00:12:54   There will be a Christmas Eve episode that will be very special.

00:12:57   Upgrade holiday special on Christmas Eve.

00:12:59   Indeed.

00:13:00   And then we have a New Year's Eve.

00:13:01   Yeah.

00:13:02   So very excited about that.

00:13:04   And in what we're talking about, the spirit of the holidays, we're going to be doing a

00:13:08   mic at the movies next week and we're going to be watching The Miracle on 34th Street,

00:13:13   which is a movie I've never seen and is a classic movie and is useful for me.

00:13:18   It's not from the 80s.

00:13:19   No, no, no.

00:13:21   It's from the 40s, right?

00:13:22   1947.

00:13:24   The Miracle on 34th Street.

00:13:26   Oh, that's going to be difficult for me to keep saying.

00:13:28   Miracle on 34th Street.

00:13:30   Well, because my brain wants to say 34th Street and that's not, I don't like that.

00:13:34   That doesn't sound very good.

00:13:36   So this is good for me because I was talking to Adina over the weekend and she compiled

00:13:42   a list of movies she wanted to watch because that she's never seen for the holidays.

00:13:45   This was one of them.

00:13:46   So we'll be watching it probably this weekend together in preparation for Myke at the movies

00:13:51   next week.

00:13:52   It's great.

00:13:52   Let's do a couple of pieces of upstream news.

00:13:55   WarnerMedia has given some more details about their upcoming streaming service.

00:14:01   It will be launching in 2019 is the plan.

00:14:05   Some time in 2019 is what comes from Variety.

00:14:09   They're going to have three subscription tiers available.

00:14:13   There's going to be an entry level movies package, a premium service with original

00:14:18   programming and blockbuster movies.

00:14:20   So I expect the movies package will be not new movies, but movies.

00:14:25   Then there will be new movies on the more expensive one.

00:14:27   And then the most expensive one will be a bundle of everything.

00:14:31   So movies and original programming plus access to the WarnerMedia and licensed content libraries.

00:14:39   So they're going to have a bunch of things going on here.

00:14:42   WarnerMedia have also said that they're not going to just take all of the content that

00:14:47   they make and put it behind this new paywall, this service, because they want to keep doing

00:14:54   deals for some overseas rights distributions as well.

00:14:57   I hope that doesn't mean that they're going to make this a US only service entirely, which

00:15:03   but it sounds like it might be.

00:15:04   I wonder what they're doing here.

00:15:06   Also, keep in mind they own HBO and they said that HBO Go and HBO Now are not a part of

00:15:12   this product, which is really weird.

00:15:16   And I'm not quite sure how WarnerMedia is going to offer a premium service with original

00:15:20   programming and blockbuster movies.

00:15:21   That sounds like HBO to me.

00:15:23   So are they doing HBO again?

00:15:27   Or are they going to have HBO as a standalone branded thing and also it's going to fold

00:15:33   in all the HBO stuff and other stuff to their premium service?

00:15:37   Does HBO Now turn into this?

00:15:42   Because HBO Go is just your cable subscription and you're watching it.

00:15:46   HBO Now is over the top.

00:15:47   You can just get a la carte.

00:15:48   You can just buy the HBO streaming service.

00:15:51   They could turn that into this, but I think they've said that they weren't going to, which

00:15:56   doesn't really make sense.

00:15:57   I wonder what they're doing here.

00:15:59   I bet that HBO Go will continue being its thing, but I bet that the top tier package

00:16:07   is everything HBO Go has on it.

00:16:09   It could be.

00:16:10   It could be that it's basically a bundle of everything from WarnerMedia, including HBO

00:16:16   stuff and other stuff.

00:16:17   Because it would be crazy for them not to be like, "Oh, and Game of Thrones is on this

00:16:22   thing."

00:16:22   Like, "Oh no, not Game of Thrones.

00:16:23   No, no, no."

00:16:24   That would be wild.

00:16:25   Yeah, the entry level movie focused package is also interesting.

00:16:30   I wonder what that product is and maybe there's a place for that.

00:16:33   Maybe there is a place for, especially a company that has an enormous library, to say, "We're

00:16:38   going to build a movie streaming service that's like, you're a fan of movies.

00:16:43   We have movies throughout the history of film.

00:16:46   We're going to put them all in one place."

00:16:48   I guess it would be interesting to see how they market that.

00:16:52   I'm not quite sure what they're doing there.

00:16:53   The premium service sounds like they're real kind of like Netflix competitor, although

00:16:58   they throw in Blockbuster movies, which again gets me back to then is it kind of just HBO?

00:17:03   It's very peculiar.

00:17:06   I wonder what their strategy is.

00:17:08   We're going to learn.

00:17:09   Myke, this time next year, we're going to have a lot more detail about this world.

00:17:14   I feel like in 2019, going to be a really big year for figuring out the future of streaming

00:17:19   video.

00:17:20   I will add one more point on this WarnerMedia thing.

00:17:23   Like the original programming part, where is that going to come from?

00:17:26   Because we're tracking Apple, right?

00:17:30   They just announced a couple more.

00:17:32   They've put a season order for that Kevin Durant show.

00:17:36   They've tied some more actors into some more productions.

00:17:39   Like if they want to have something ready to go in 2019 with original programming, you

00:17:44   would expect to see something about that before, right?

00:17:48   Yeah, well, that's why I say it's HBO.

00:17:52   It's got to be, right?

00:17:55   If you look at what they own, they have original content on HBO.

00:18:01   They have TBS and TNT.

00:18:03   They have Cartoon Network.

00:18:05   They have the Audience Network, which has original programming in it.

00:18:09   They've got the DC Comics stuff.

00:18:10   It's funny because it's almost as if they are trying to rebrand what they do to fit

00:18:19   with the new streaming world, right?

00:18:21   Because original content now means like the Netflix shows, the Amazon Prime shows, but

00:18:26   they're like, they have all this traditional content, which is technically their own original

00:18:30   properties, right?

00:18:33   And that's, I think what they're doing is they're going to take the content that they're

00:18:37   building as originals for their channels, their cable channels, and they're going to

00:18:41   also pour it into this premium service.

00:18:43   So you can watch it on TBS or you can watch it on the Audience Network, which nobody gets,

00:18:48   or you can watch it on their over-the-top service that they're providing here.

00:18:53   Yeah, it's a struggle.

00:18:55   Like they have a legacy baggage of all these channels that is a challenge when you're building

00:19:01   a streaming service.

00:19:02   It's easier if you aren't dealing with cable deals and cable time slots and stuff like

00:19:07   that, but they do, they have to deal with that.

00:19:10   And then they are new owners picking up old assets and trying to figure out what they

00:19:15   want to do with them.

00:19:15   And like Warner's strategy a year ago is not their strategy today because there's this

00:19:22   new Warner Media.

00:19:23   So they're trying to figure it out.

00:19:24   Yeah, it really feels to me that Warner is being dragged into this kicking and screaming

00:19:28   by AT&T.

00:19:29   That's just kind of the impression I get from like their timing and everything, right?

00:19:33   It's like, would they do this if Disney wasn't doing this?

00:19:35   I don't think so.

00:19:36   There's going to be a huge culture clash, right?

00:19:38   Because AT&T is going to be in there and there are executives that they've installed.

00:19:42   And then there's the old Warner way of doing it.

00:19:44   I mean, when they came out and said, "Oh, no, no."

00:19:45   First they came out and said, "Oh, no, HBO is going to be different."

00:19:48   And then they also said, "Oh, actually what we want to do is really increase HBO's budget

00:19:52   and have them do more stuff."

00:19:54   And like those were weird and contradictory.

00:19:57   And I still, as an observer from the sidelines, I look at this and say, "HBO, getting HBO

00:20:05   to produce more material and really bulk it up as the basis of a streaming service, of

00:20:13   HBO Now, and just continuing to invest in original content on HBO is a good move."

00:20:19   Like that's a good move.

00:20:20   My question is, are you making another move that's just like it?

00:20:24   Because why would you do that?

00:20:25   Why?

00:20:26   And maybe the details in who they're targeted for, throwing in the DC Universe thing, which

00:20:31   is like, that's a fascinating thing because that's like comics and TV shows and old

00:20:36   movies and all that kind of stuff rolled together.

00:20:39   It's a really weird bundle.

00:20:41   And I look at that and think this makes no sense.

00:20:43   Right?

00:20:44   Like, why are you...

00:20:45   I just don't think that DC Comics is worth building.

00:20:51   Like with all the success Marvel has had, Disney is not building a Marvel streaming

00:20:55   service, right?

00:20:55   They're building...

00:20:56   They've got Hulu that they're going to own most of.

00:20:59   They're building the Disney Plus streaming service.

00:21:02   But Warner built this DC Universe streaming service.

00:21:07   And that's an example of one of those things that like if I'm AT&T and I'm like, "No,

00:21:12   if we're going to do original based on the DC Comics stuff we own, we're going to put

00:21:15   it on our big streaming service, not on this niche just for comic book fans streaming service.

00:21:21   That doesn't make any sense."

00:21:22   So I think it's a work in progress for Warner.

00:21:27   It will be fascinating to watch because it is going to be this push and pull of the kind

00:21:30   of Warner culture, Warner Brothers culture that has existed at AT&T saying, "We're not

00:21:36   going to do it that way.

00:21:37   The world has changed."

00:21:38   And it's an opportunity for everybody at both companies actually to reset and some

00:21:43   people will leave and some people will stay and figure it out.

00:21:47   But I'm not quite sure what they're doing now.

00:21:48   I'm not sure they do either.

00:21:49   I want to give a note about what I think Warner's commitment is to outside of the US markets.

00:21:57   I've gone to the DC Universe website because I had no idea such a thing even existed.

00:22:03   Sorry, this service is only available in the US.

00:22:07   We'll announce when it's available in your region.

00:22:09   And there's no like, "Give us your email."

00:22:13   Like, no, they don't ever plan for it to be available outside of the US.

00:22:16   I have to say, I think in the long run, anybody who's hedging about international is going

00:22:21   to die in this world.

00:22:23   Like, I think Apple and Netflix and Amazon have it right, which is we need to be everywhere.

00:22:29   And, you know, Apple is going to, by all accounts, roll out everywhere as quickly as possible.

00:22:34   And I know that that's Netflix's strategy and it's also Amazon's strategy now is to

00:22:37   try to be everywhere with as much stuff as they want.

00:22:40   And this feels like Warner is hedging where they're like, "Well, we'll do streaming,

00:22:44   but it's only going to be in the US." And, you know, part of the problem is that they've

00:22:47   got deals, they've got distribution deals for overseas that limit what they can put

00:22:53   out there.

00:22:54   Like, if they've got, if they've already sold HBO to Sky TV or something.

00:22:59   Sure, but everybody else is winding them up.

00:23:01   Yeah, but I mean, this is the challenge is that they are going to have to turn away money

00:23:07   from people who want to pay them for their content in order to keep that content and

00:23:12   go international.

00:23:13   And that is going to be a challenge for them because it's the, "But they're paying us

00:23:17   money for this TV show."

00:23:18   It's like, yeah, but you need to own it.

00:23:20   The new model is original content that you have all the rights to that you roll out everywhere.

00:23:26   Not, your business is no longer a studio where you make entertainment and you have your

00:23:31   channels in the US and then you just sell it off to everybody else overseas.

00:23:35   I'm skeptical that that's going to work for them in the long run.

00:23:39   But because the fact is the buyers, for the most part, unless they're like international

00:23:43   broadcasters, the international streaming services, they want to own everything and

00:23:47   they'd rather own it worldwide.

00:23:48   Like, Netflix, I'm sure, is not thrilled with the idea that CBS controls or that they

00:23:55   don't control Star Trek in North America.

00:23:58   That Star Trek in North America is CBS and a different channel in Canada.

00:24:02   Everywhere else, it's Netflix.

00:24:04   And that, I think, is extremely frustrating to them.

00:24:06   They'd rather be everywhere.

00:24:07   So I'm not quite sure.

00:24:09   I think that devalues the product, right?

00:24:12   Because it's like, well, it's not really a Netflix original.

00:24:15   It's kind of, but kind of not.

00:24:17   And that's not great.

00:24:18   And it's bad for CBS because CBS wants to expand CBS All Access.

00:24:22   And they don't get Star Trek.

00:24:23   They don't get Star Trek Discovery because they already made a deal with Netflix.

00:24:26   So it's like, it's bad for everyone, which is why I think that that model is going away.

00:24:30   It's why the Marvel shows aren't on Netflix anymore after these last seasons play out

00:24:36   because Netflix wants 100% ownership of everything it does.

00:24:40   And Marvel wants, and Disney want 100% ownership on their stuff.

00:24:44   And unless the show's a big hit, so big that it overrides those premises,

00:24:52   then it's just going to go away.

00:24:54   So I think WarnerMedia is going to have that moment, too, where they're going to be like,

00:24:58   are we worldwide or are we just sort of a boutique US-only streaming service?

00:25:03   It seems like a bad idea to me.

00:25:05   Hey, speaking of which, while we're still on Upstream, what do you think?

00:25:11   Do you have any thoughts about this whole Apple Music running on the Amazon Echo thing?

00:25:14   Because Jon and I talked about it a little bit, the idea of if this is the beginning

00:25:18   of something different.

00:25:19   I wrote a piece in Macworld this week where I basically tried to explore the idea that

00:25:25   Apple TV, maybe Apple's TV service, their video service, and maybe the TV app might

00:25:31   actually show up on Roku and Amazon Fire TV as apps, because this strikes me as being

00:25:39   very much like Apple saying, services are important to us, and we're willing to have

00:25:43   our services on other pieces of hardware, because in the end, the service is the most

00:25:47   important thing.

00:25:48   We want to extend our ecosystem there.

00:25:49   What do you think?

00:25:50   I think that the possibility of Apple TV showing up elsewhere has increased exponentially now,

00:26:00   right? Where I think before it was like, I don't know, will they do this?

00:26:03   Yeah, Apple Music's on Android, but that's because the Beats app was on Android, right?

00:26:10   So they just turned one into the other.

00:26:13   But this is like Apple have decided or allowed for this thing to be created and the deals

00:26:19   to be done with Amazon.

00:26:21   And then now it appears.

00:26:25   I like to assume what happens in the smoke filled dark rooms with executives, right?

00:26:31   I'm building my own conspiracy theory that Apple wants, they want their TV service to

00:26:40   be on Fire TV.

00:26:41   And Amazon have said, okay, but we'll take music as well.

00:26:45   You know, like that there is maybe some exchange going on here where, because it seems very

00:26:51   strange to me for Apple to put Apple Music on the Amazon Echo, like that doesn't make

00:26:56   as much sense to me as the Apple TV service on the Fire TV, because Apple doesn't really

00:27:04   Apple hasn't invested significant sums of money into Apple Music, right?

00:27:08   Like they're not putting billions of dollars into original music content, right?

00:27:13   Like Apple Music having the audience size that it has is perfectly fine.

00:27:18   It doesn't need to recoup huge costs, right?

00:27:22   Like they will make their money and then some.

00:27:24   And I also don't think that like Apple Music isn't really competitive with Spotify, right?

00:27:32   Like it doesn't have a thing where people are like, oh, I got to get my Apple Music.

00:27:36   But like a TV service with original content will inherently have a desire for people that

00:27:44   don't, hopefully, that don't even necessarily own an Apple TV to want the content.

00:27:49   So like it makes more sense for Apple to want to put their TV stuff in other places than

00:27:54   it does their music stuff.

00:27:56   So the fact that they now have put their music in other places seems to indicate to me that

00:28:01   it is it has become significantly more likely that the Apple TV programming will too.

00:28:06   Yeah, I guess what I would say about the Amazon Echo thing is it's all a matter of priorities

00:28:13   and the scale, you're right, is very different because the nature of the business is different.

00:28:16   They aren't investing a lot of money in original content for music.

00:28:20   All the music services are basically the same.

00:28:22   What is the case, though, I think is that Apple is saying Apple Music services growth,

00:28:32   revenue growth is more important than keeping it as a HomePod semi-exclusive.

00:28:42   Like, right, like the margins on the HomePod are not as important as the growth of Apple

00:28:46   Music.

00:28:47   That HomePod is available and uses Siri and can be sold as that.

00:28:54   But the kind of false separation of features based on an exclusive deal, which is what

00:29:02   the Apple TV has, right?

00:29:03   Like you can't play Apple TV, like iTunes videos and stuff on a TV without an Apple

00:29:10   TV.

00:29:11   It's not on any other boxes.

00:29:13   And legally, I think it's not on like AirPlay, as in although there are like AirPlay apps

00:29:18   that you can run that I've never gotten to work right, but people say they work on other

00:29:21   platforms.

00:29:21   So it's different.

00:29:24   But I think in the end, it's the same in the sense where it's Apple saying, you know,

00:29:29   our hardware margins aren't as important as our services growth in products that are not

00:29:33   as important to us.

00:29:34   And Apple TV and HomePod are not as important to Apple as services growth.

00:29:39   Like it would be different if it was the iPhone or the iPad or the Mac, frankly.

00:29:43   But these aren't those.

00:29:45   These are kind of like ecosystem extensions that happen.

00:29:48   They're extruding these little hardware devices out, and they can be Apple's tech, and they

00:29:54   can have the high margins.

00:29:55   And they'll be like, if you want the best experience, you can listen on HomePod, but

00:29:58   we'll also let you listen on Amazon Echo.

00:30:01   That seems to be where they're going.

00:30:02   And yeah, at that point, it really is hard to not see them wanting to have Apple TV on

00:30:09   Fire TV and Roku and select partners that will give them exposure to a much larger audience.

00:30:17   I mean, also not just for the video service, but I think at that point, maybe for movie

00:30:23   rentals and purchases and TV purchases and all of the other stuff that's in iTunes.

00:30:28   I am in agreement with you that it's something about a priorities thing, right?

00:30:34   Some priority has changed or some priority was this way, but we never saw it.

00:30:39   And it's like that the services growth, these things that we're making, these additional

00:30:44   add-ons are more important.

00:30:45   This monthly revenue is more important than the sale of a $150 Apple TV and like a now

00:30:52   250, if you look in the right place, dollar HomePod, right?

00:30:55   And I think that I just think the fact that they've done this with Apple Music makes it

00:31:02   much more likely that they will do the same with Apple's TV service too.

00:31:07   - Yep, we'll see.

00:31:07   It will be, it's weird, right?

00:31:09   Like it's hard to imagine for me, Apple like just saying, yeah, get our TV app on Roku.

00:31:15   - It's very strange.

00:31:18   - Or Fire TV.

00:31:19   It seems so different from the way Apple has behaved up to now.

00:31:23   But if I look at the way they describe their business, I don't see them not doing it.

00:31:27   So yeah.

00:31:28   - We'll see what happens next week.

00:31:30   But so far, Apple has said absolutely nothing about the Echo, music on an Echo.

00:31:37   - It's true.

00:31:38   I heard on Connected, you guys talked about your sort of conspiracy theories there.

00:31:43   I don't believe that Apple is, I think Apple will do a press release when it's available.

00:31:50   I think there'll be an Apple newsroom item when it's available.

00:31:54   - I think so too.

00:31:54   - I think that that's what they're saving it for and they'll do it then and they'll

00:31:57   say, isn't it great?

00:31:58   Apple Music is on the Amazon Echo.

00:31:59   It's a, the Amazon Echo is popular and everybody loves Apple Music.

00:32:03   Why would they not?

00:32:04   And so now you can listen to it there.

00:32:05   - Oh, and by the way, if you want something that sounds better, here's the link to a HomePod.

00:32:09   - Yes, Apple Music is also available on other devices, including the HomePod, which is revolutionary,

00:32:16   et cetera, et cetera.

00:32:17   - Yeah.

00:32:17   - Yeah.

00:32:17   - Stereophonic, stereo widening pairing sound.

00:32:21   This episode is, actually, do you know what?

00:32:24   Talking about something out of the ordinary, that's what we're going to talk about next.

00:32:27   But before we do that, let's thank a new sponsor for upgrade and that is Hopsi.

00:32:32   Hopsi was created by three guys who love craft beer.

00:32:36   Jason, this sponsor is so for you, my friend.

00:32:38   And they know that the best beer comes straight from the tap, but this isn't something that's

00:32:43   accessible everywhere, especially at home.

00:32:46   Well, now you can actually have this, your own beer bar at home with something called

00:32:50   The Sub.

00:32:51   The Sub is a countertop appliance.

00:32:53   It fits neatly in your kitchen, your bar, or your living room, you know, your home bar

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00:32:57   So you can enjoy amazingly fresh beers like pale ales and IPAs whenever you want.

00:33:03   Hopsi is the Nespresso for beer.

00:33:06   It brings beer on tap to the comfort of your own home without a hefty price tag.

00:33:11   And they've partnered with a long list of breweries to ship mini kegs, craft mini kegs

00:33:16   straight to you.

00:33:17   This is what Hopsi is doing.

00:33:17   So like The Sub is a device that you get that Hopsi will send to you.

00:33:22   And then they will then send you on the subscription any types of beers that you're interested

00:33:27   in.

00:33:27   Now, Jason, I believe that you have received some Hopsi shipments.

00:33:32   Yeah, I'm trying to think of, so the little things are, so they're not kegs, they're called

00:33:36   torps, and they're kind of like two-liter bottles with a special kind of tech in them

00:33:40   so that they stay fresh and have all their bubbles.

00:33:44   And you load them in The Sub, which is like a, it's like a beer refrigerator, but it's

00:33:53   shaped for these torps to go in there.

00:33:56   And I have gone through, my family and I, but mostly me, but also my wife, have gone

00:34:03   through many, several.

00:34:05   I bought more.

00:34:06   So that's how I'm doing with Hopsi.

00:34:09   If you want to know how I'm doing, I have a subscription now.

00:34:13   I bought more, yeah, I did.

00:34:14   Because they sent us The Sub, and they sent us, I think, four torps.

00:34:20   And I got more.

00:34:22   I was like, great, more beer.

00:34:24   And the thing is, so it's, you know, taps are great.

00:34:27   Like, and getting a beer from a tap is nice for a bunch of reasons, including that you

00:34:31   don't have to have, like you open a bottle, you have the bottle's worth, and if you want

00:34:35   more or if you want less, it doesn't matter, you get, it's a single serving.

00:34:39   So I found that it's fun.

00:34:40   Sometimes I will just, for dinner, I'll just have half a glass.

00:34:43   If I want a little bit more, I can go back and get more.

00:34:46   So that's a lot of fun.

00:34:47   It is fun to have this beer on tap in your living room or kitchen or bar or wherever.

00:34:53   It's in the corner of our kitchen.

00:34:55   A lot of fun.

00:34:56   And I've thought about, I like beer enough that I thought about getting like a Kickerator

00:35:02   or something like that.

00:35:03   And the problem is, when you get to that point, like, first off, it's a big piece of hardware.

00:35:10   It's basically a refrigerator.

00:35:12   And it's complicated to set it up.

00:35:15   And even if you get like a half a keg, it's a lot of beer.

00:35:20   And if it's just you or just you and your partner drinking the beer, it's going to,

00:35:26   are you going to be able to get through it in time?

00:35:28   And it's one beer the whole time for a very large volume.

00:35:32   And so it never made sense.

00:35:33   It's like, oh, that would be cool, but it never made sense.

00:35:36   And these individual containers are small enough that you can go through them without

00:35:44   feeling like, oh, no, I've got to rush and I'm only ever going to have this one beer

00:35:48   and it's going to take forever.

00:35:49   It's a smaller serving size.

00:35:51   It's more reasonable.

00:35:52   You can fit it on a countertop.

00:35:54   And yeah, the beer is fun.

00:35:56   I've had Stouts.

00:35:57   I've had Brown Ales.

00:36:00   We have a Winterbok right now that's loaded in there because we just finished a Brown

00:36:05   Ale last time.

00:36:06   I had Porter.

00:36:07   They had our favorite Belgian White beer that we had a couple of.

00:36:13   So yeah, it's been a lot of fun to do it and to have it available.

00:36:17   And we've both been taking advantage of having it.

00:36:19   And yes, I have bought more because they have a subscription service.

00:36:21   You can set up with your preferences.

00:36:23   And it's a little bit like one of these dining services where they send you food, where you

00:36:29   get you're saying, send me something every month, but and here are my preferences and

00:36:34   they'll make some choices for you.

00:36:35   But my experience was I was able to go in and personalize it too.

00:36:38   I was being like, actually, I want this one and this one for this month's shipment.

00:36:41   And then those are what I got.

00:36:42   So it was a lot of fun.

00:36:46   So you've heard that simple, convenient.

00:36:49   It's great.

00:36:49   It's why they it's easy to use.

00:36:51   It's why it's called an espresso for beer, which is like a really fun way to think of

00:36:54   it.

00:36:55   Go and find out for yourself right now by going to tryhopsy.com/upgrade.

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00:37:09   sub home draft machine, two mini kegs of beer, which is equivalent to two six packs, two

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00:37:23   Go to tryhopsy.com/upgrade and the promo code upgrade to get your hands on that wonderful

00:37:29   deal.

00:37:29   Our thanks to Hopsie for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:37:32   So last week, Mark Gurman over at Bloomberg wrote a report in which he spoke about Apple

00:37:42   resorting to as he quotes, resorting to promo deals and trade ins to boost iPhone sales.

00:37:51   Now, this sounds like a lot of the kind of thing that's been spoken about over the last

00:37:56   year or two about like failing iPhone sales, right?

00:38:00   Like failing iPhone sales, iPhone sales are going down.

00:38:03   But there are really interesting promo deals going on right now for the iPhone.

00:38:11   So this is part of Apple's Give Back program, which is a thing that's existed for a long

00:38:16   time where you can take in a device and Apple will recycle it.

00:38:19   And if it's in good condition, you'll get some money for it.

00:38:22   But right now they are doing some limited time offers where they're giving you more

00:38:27   money.

00:38:27   So, for example, right now you can get an iPhone XR for $449 if you trade in like a

00:38:35   qualifying phone or $699 for a XS.

00:38:39   So these are $300 savings on a brand new iPhone.

00:38:44   According to Mark Gurman, people in Apple's marketing teams have moved around in, I think

00:38:51   October, he said specifically to help create and promote these plans to boost iPhone sales

00:38:58   over the holiday period.

00:38:59   And this has been something that has ramped up over time.

00:39:02   So I've been doing a little bit of tracking as to how these deals have evolved and like

00:39:06   the kind of promotion of it and the expansion of it.

00:39:12   So it started with a small banner on Apple's homepage for the XR.

00:39:18   Then the XS showed up.

00:39:20   Now these banners are dominating the entire homepage.

00:39:24   It's all that's on the homepage now is these deals.

00:39:26   As far as I can see, these are US only.

00:39:30   I haven't, it's not in the UK and I haven't seen it anywhere else.

00:39:34   But then there's more.

00:39:34   The US App Store had a feature about the XR and everything that it could do.

00:39:38   I've seen people talking about push notifications from the Apple Store app about these deals

00:39:44   and Apple Stores, so the physical store locations in the US are using screens that are usually

00:39:51   for the Genius Bar and like on the ends of tables.

00:39:53   And even like, I think I saw one where it was like the screen that the Mac Mini was

00:39:57   attached to to promote these deals as well.

00:40:01   Throughout all this whole thing, Greg Joswiak of Apple told CNET that the iPhone XR has

00:40:07   been our most popular iPhone each and every day since the day it became available.

00:40:14   So this is everything that's happened.

00:40:16   What do you think about this, Jason?

00:40:19   Well, I think first off that Apple has been doing aggressive marketing in various areas

00:40:25   for a long time.

00:40:27   Maybe the people who are writing about this haven't been getting those emails.

00:40:29   Like I got on an Apple's marketing list and I've been getting pretty aggressive Apple

00:40:36   sales pitches for holiday seasons and all sorts of other things for years now.

00:40:40   So it's not Apple's, "Oh, Apple has to market their products now," is silly.

00:40:47   I think marketing though is different to $300 off a brand new phone.

00:40:51   Well, but here's the thing.

00:40:53   It's not $300 off a brand new phone.

00:40:55   The iPhone XR costs $749.

00:40:59   It still costs $749.

00:41:01   All they're doing is trying to sell the trade-in program by showing you.

00:41:06   And in fact, I find it weird that it says on Apple's website right now, what it says

00:41:10   to me is iPhone XR from $449 with an asterisk, iPhone XS from $699.

00:41:16   But actually if you have an iPhone X from last year, you can get that iPhone XR for

00:41:20   $249.

00:41:20   You can get that.

00:41:22   Why don't they even have the lower number?

00:41:23   Oh, that's weird.

00:41:24   They've actually shown some restraint.

00:41:26   And from $449 is for the iPhone 8.

00:41:31   Huh.

00:41:31   So you should say that these prices, the prices that they are on the website in the small

00:41:36   print, they are basing those numbers of trading in an iPhone 7 Plus.

00:41:41   I don't know why they picked that phone so specifically.

00:41:43   Yeah.

00:41:43   The 7 Plus or the 8 will get you a $449.

00:41:47   But if you have an 8 Plus, it's $399 because it's a sliding scale based on the value of

00:41:53   your phone.

00:41:53   They'll give you a $500 for an iPhone X, but they'll only give you $65 for an iPhone SE.

00:41:58   I'm sorry, iPhone SE.

00:42:02   They don't value you.

00:42:03   And a 6S Plus is worth $250.

00:42:05   A 6S is worth $200, et cetera.

00:42:08   So what they're really doing is trying to push the trade-in idea that your existing

00:42:17   phone has value.

00:42:17   Take it back to the September event when they launched these things.

00:42:21   Right.

00:42:21   In that event, they talked a lot about iPhones keeping their value over time and things like

00:42:27   that.

00:42:27   That was part of the marketing and conversation about that event.

00:42:32   And this is part of that effort, I think, which is to say, I know-- because here's what

00:42:37   they did.

00:42:37   Is they did-- these new phones all have high prices.

00:42:41   So how do you market that?

00:42:43   And one way is, let's put the trade-in thing up front and center because that lets us communicate

00:42:48   that if you're willing to give us your old phone, we can make you a deal.

00:42:53   That's not new, but what's new is them really pushing on it.

00:42:57   And part of that, I think, is, yeah, those price tags look really high, and they're trying

00:43:02   to bring them down.

00:43:04   So if there's a promo here, the promo is that they're giving more trade-in value than

00:43:10   they might the rest of the year.

00:43:12   But they haven't really cut the flat fee on these phones, although you have-- you have

00:43:18   also seen-- there have been reports for iPhones and iPads that there are deals to be had at

00:43:24   big box stores and places like that.

00:43:27   I think the way I read this is, one, Sticker Shock is real, and they want to market their

00:43:33   way out of the Sticker Shock by saying, do you have a two-year-old phone?

00:43:36   You can bring it in.

00:43:37   You can save a lot of money.

00:43:38   We're not going to make you pay $7.49.

00:43:41   We're not going to make you pay $9.99 if you turn in your old phone.

00:43:44   Now, a lot of people hand down their old phones to other members of their family, which extends

00:43:50   the life of the phone in a different way.

00:43:51   But if you're just a guy with a phone who wants to turn in and get a new phone, random

00:43:58   Singleton with a phone, this is an option for you.

00:44:06   The other thing I would say is, one of the things that I not really thought a lot about

00:44:11   when these things got announced is Apple having the prices so high and presumably the margin

00:44:20   so high.

00:44:21   One of the strategies here is it's easier to discount.

00:44:26   I wonder if maybe part of their strategy is, what if we price the phones high?

00:44:32   Because some people will just pay that price, but it gives us more room to deal and offer

00:44:37   deals.

00:44:38   You price it high, and then you offer deals.

00:44:40   And so I would say there's no doubt that this is different from what it's been in the past.

00:44:45   But what I don't think is accurate is to say, oh, Apple's really hurting.

00:44:50   They've had to do a lot of deals.

00:44:52   I think this was premeditated.

00:44:53   I think there's always been the plan is we're going to raise the prices, but we're going

00:44:56   to do some deals.

00:44:57   And some of them are going to be trade-in deals, because then we can take those components

00:45:00   and refurb them and ship them to other countries that are more price sensitive than the markets

00:45:07   like in Europe and the US.

00:45:10   I think it's all part of their plan.

00:45:11   Marketing isn't just promotion.

00:45:14   Marketing is also the price you charge and the way you talk about it and the way you

00:45:19   position the products.

00:45:20   Positioning is part of marketing.

00:45:22   And marketing something as an expensive phone that you can get cheaper with a deal, that's

00:45:29   all part of the strategy.

00:45:30   I think that's been their strategy with these phones from the start.

00:45:33   That is really interesting.

00:45:40   It's weird in its own way.

00:45:42   I mean, I wonder if you risk upsetting your customers, maybe harming loyalty.

00:45:50   These phones have not been out for very long, especially the $10.

00:45:53   If you bought one early on, it's a big difference.

00:46:00   And I know that there was a trade-in.

00:46:01   There was a trade-in.

00:46:02   The trade-in program existed, but the trade-in value right now is higher.

00:46:06   That's what the limited time is, is higher trade-in value.

00:46:13   And if that was the plan, which is an interesting plan of like, well, we'll build in some more

00:46:17   money so we can do some deals.

00:46:19   I don't know about that.

00:46:22   It seems like a weird thing for Apple to do, just based upon everything they've ever done

00:46:29   before.

00:46:29   - Isn't it funny we just said this in upstream?

00:46:33   - Exactly.

00:46:34   - This is Apple trying some new stuff out and I think questioning some of their fundamental

00:46:41   assumptions that they made that probably extend all the way back to the Steve Jobs era.

00:46:46   And with services, it's one thing, but this is another, which is the other side of having

00:46:52   these pricey phones is making deals.

00:46:57   And does this hurt their ASP?

00:47:00   Like it depends a little bit on how it's all marketed, but like the trade-ins, if you can

00:47:06   get an iPhone 10 for 500 and then resell it refurbished for 799 or 899, they're getting

00:47:14   revenue on both sides there.

00:47:18   And I think also it's an opportunity for people who, it's an opportunity for Apple to get

00:47:25   that hardware back and to push people to upgrades.

00:47:28   Because I do think that the upgrade cycle, we've talked about this a lot here on the

00:47:32   upgrade program, is that the upgrade cycle for phones is stretching.

00:47:37   And so one way you get people to upgrade is to say, well, you don't have to wait three

00:47:42   years and hand down your phone and all of that.

00:47:44   You can also just after two years or three years, just hand it in and get a new phone

00:47:48   for cheaper.

00:47:49   And that is one way to maybe make the upgrade cycle go faster.

00:47:54   Just like the people, and people who are on the replacement program where they're getting

00:47:58   a new phone every year or every two years, they're already locked in.

00:48:01   This is more like an a la carte version of that where it's like, well, you bought it.

00:48:06   You weren't paying on installments or anything like that.

00:48:08   But if you come in after two years and hand in your phone, we will also give you a deal

00:48:13   on a new phone.

00:48:13   It doesn't feel radically different to me other than the fact that they're pushing it.

00:48:21   And that is different and I think interesting.

00:48:24   But I kind of think that that's fundamentally fallout from the pricing.

00:48:28   I'm not sure that that is based on sales.

00:48:31   Like I said, my guess is that they were planning this all along as part of this strategy that

00:48:35   included having the new phone start at $749 instead of like $649 or whatever, a lower

00:48:42   price than the $10R.

00:48:45   Do you think part of the strategy could be not reporting unit sales anymore?

00:48:50   I mean, I think it's all wrapped up together.

00:48:52   I don't know how closely those dots are connected, but yeah.

00:48:56   You can certainly do this type of stuff more easily if you're not having to report on that.

00:49:02   Then again, if you're driving new sales through deals, then you could be accused of trying

00:49:07   to boost your unit sales numbers.

00:49:09   So I don't know.

00:49:11   I don't know.

00:49:11   I think this is, you know, is Apple having sales issues with their new expensive phones?

00:49:20   Maybe.

00:49:20   Is it a surprise to Apple?

00:49:24   Maybe, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

00:49:27   I don't think if you're Apple, you go in and say, well, we're going to start at $749 and

00:49:31   then go to $999 and $1099 and assume that the market won't blink.

00:49:37   I think they were always assuming that they would sell more eights and eight pluses and

00:49:42   maybe even sevens because some people wouldn't want to upgrade to the highest end model.

00:49:48   And they figured they'd do marketing and they'd do some deals and they'd emphasize trade-in.

00:49:52   It was probably all one big conversation about how they wanted to change how they were marketing

00:49:58   the product line.

00:50:00   And this is part of it.

00:50:01   If they thought that they could sell the iPhone to everyone for a thousand, like the eight

00:50:08   wouldn't have existed, right?

00:50:10   They would have just put the 10 up.

00:50:11   That was it.

00:50:12   I think quite literally what happened is that they looked at the six and the six S and the

00:50:15   seven and the eight, but especially like the six and the success and said, you know, if

00:50:21   they're buying these phones for these prices, why don't, why aren't we charging them more?

00:50:27   Like, why are we not charging people more?

00:50:29   Because a lot of people will, will be willing to spend more.

00:50:31   And so we've seen the last two years, they've cranked it up and said, you know, if you are

00:50:35   willing to spend 1099 on this super high end phone, we're going to let you, and we're going

00:50:39   to let you upgrade it and spend 1499 on it eventually.

00:50:43   Like they're willing to do that.

00:50:45   The challenge is how do you keep the people who are not willing to spend that money?

00:50:50   How do you keep them in your market?

00:50:52   And that, you know, we, a lot of people we know, a lot of podcasts we listen to have

00:50:56   had the same conversations about Apple's pricing.

00:50:58   And I do think that Apple is trying to figure out and, and let the market tell them like

00:51:06   how much they can push this because Apple wants to maximize revenue.

00:51:09   That's what Apple wants to do.

00:51:10   Apple doesn't want to screw the poor people out of their devices, right?

00:51:17   Like Apple doesn't want to become like the luxury band.

00:51:19   Their goal is not to say, unless you're a millionaire, you can't buy our products.

00:51:22   That is not Apple's goal.

00:51:24   Apple's goal is to maximize revenue.

00:51:25   That's what, that's what their goal is.

00:51:27   They're a company, they're a profit making company.

00:51:29   They want to maximize revenue.

00:51:30   Yes, they want to change the world and they want to make good products and all those things.

00:51:33   But from a really simplified perspective, they want to maximize revenue.

00:51:37   If the market says, Oh, taking those phones up that high in price turns out didn't maximize

00:51:42   your revenue because you turned off a lot of people and you lost some market share and

00:51:47   you lost some unit sales and, and, and those increased margins behind didn't make it up.

00:51:51   Well, you know, if that's the case, Apple will recalibrate like that.

00:51:56   They will, they'll be like, Oh, that was that we pushed it too much.

00:51:59   We're going to back off.

00:52:00   We're going to come back down market a little bit.

00:52:03   What they're trying with last year's model and two years ago's model and all of this stuff

00:52:07   and with the 10 R positioned at a fairly premium price point, but positioned as kind of a more

00:52:14   affordable option, they're trying to provide this sort of spread of products that allows

00:52:19   different parts of the market to buy different places and maximize revenue.

00:52:23   But again, you know, in the end, if they, if they stick with this strategy, it's because

00:52:28   it's working.

00:52:29   I, I get frustrated because I don't like the idea that Apple is turning its back on people

00:52:35   who are more price sensitive because I don't want to see Apple become a pure luxury brand.

00:52:41   You know Gruber talks a lot about affordable luxury as a concept.

00:52:46   And I think that there's some truth in that.

00:52:49   And, and, you know, the danger is if Apple becomes one of these companies that, that

00:52:54   is purely luxury, that the stuff is so expensive, that it's the kind of stuff you only really

00:52:59   see on a fancy in a fancy shopping street or behind security at an international terminal,

00:53:08   right?

00:53:09   With the duty free shops, the luxury shops.

00:53:12   If that's what Apple's future is, I'm going to be really disappointed because I think

00:53:17   the promise, you know, the, the, for the rest of us promise is an important part of what

00:53:21   Apple is.

00:53:22   And so it makes me uneasy.

00:53:24   I don't actually mind Apple providing products for people who want to spend as much money

00:53:29   as they possibly can because they love Apple products.

00:53:31   My problem is if they ignore the rest of the market or consider them a place where they

00:53:37   can sell a two year old phone and that if you want the really coolest stuff, you've

00:53:41   got to pay through the nose for it.

00:53:42   Like, I feel like there's a spectrum there, but the more they push to the one end, the

00:53:47   more uneasy it makes me.

00:53:49   Because, you know, I do think that there, you know, we'll see what the market says, but

00:53:55   I think it would be unfortunate if what the market said was, yeah, forget all those people

00:53:59   who don't want to buy a phone for less than a thousand dollars.

00:54:02   That would be really unfortunate.

00:54:03   I would be unhappy if that happened.

00:54:05   I don't know if that's actually going to happen.

00:54:07   My guess, if I had to make a guess is that there is pushback on Apple pricing their products

00:54:13   the way that they have this year.

00:54:15   Just listening to people talk, not just in our echo chamber of tech podcasts and all

00:54:21   that, but just people in general.

00:54:23   People think Apple products have always been too expensive.

00:54:26   Right.

00:54:26   And now even people that love Apple products think they're too expensive.

00:54:30   Exactly.

00:54:30   There's no way that Apple isn't aware of this.

00:54:33   Right.

00:54:33   So my gut feeling is that they're going to back off on this a bit.

00:54:36   Maybe not all the way, but I think they're going to back off a little bit on this.

00:54:42   But I could be wrong, like this could be one of those things where I want to say Apple's

00:54:46   never going to put Apple music on an Amazon echo.

00:54:48   I want to say Apple's never going to put Apple TV, video streaming service on an Amazon

00:54:53   Fire TV or on a Roku because that's not Apple.

00:54:56   So I want to say that Apple's not going to redefine itself as being a super premium brand

00:55:01   and everybody who doesn't have the cash to buy in can just go and use a substandard product.

00:55:07   I don't want to say that.

00:55:08   I don't want to think that about Apple, but we do live in an era right now where Apple

00:55:11   is making lots of changes to challenge the assumptions we make about what their choices

00:55:18   are.

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00:57:29   All right, so Jason, I saw a post go up with six colors over the weekend.

00:57:37   You've been doing some really wild stuff with shortcuts.

00:57:40   And also what I liked about the post that you wrote, you included a really nice like

00:57:46   annotated image, which I thought was super cool.

00:57:48   Can you explain what you've been up to?

00:57:50   What have I done?

00:57:52   What have you done?

00:57:55   Yeah, so I don't know how to annotate shortcuts.

00:57:59   That's one of the problems I have is, and I think it's a problem for learning shortcuts.

00:58:02   And I wonder if there's something that the shortcuts team could do to make that easier.

00:58:07   I know that's an esoteric thing, but like teaching people how to use shortcuts is kind

00:58:11   of hard because how do you share a shortcut with notes?

00:58:15   So I took a giant screenshot, you know, with one of those stitching tools that let me kind

00:58:19   of scroll through five, six pages of shortcut.

00:58:22   And then I brought it into Photoshop and I typed text next to it to make an annotated

00:58:27   version of it, which is not ideal, but there it is.

00:58:31   I was trying to find a way to explain what was going on.

00:58:33   I like it.

00:58:33   I think it's good because you can, in a shortcut, you can leave text comments, but then it's

00:58:38   not super easy to get your head around it.

00:58:43   But I actually think, honestly, this is in, especially in image form, this is one of the

00:58:48   best ways that I've seen it.

00:58:49   Like, because you're actually showing me, because this is how I've learned this stuff

00:58:53   is by looking at somebody else's shortcut and working out what they did.

00:58:58   And Federico will explain that this does this thing.

00:59:01   And then I can get my head around it and use that knowledge to build my own.

00:59:04   Yeah.

00:59:05   So anyway, I did that because, so Matthew Casanelli, who is doing podcasts and videos

00:59:13   now, but used to be on the shortcuts team.

00:59:16   And he was writing a post last week about trying to get his podcast episodes posted

00:59:23   to his blog.

00:59:24   So it was an interesting post where he basically said, and I thought, and I do that for six

00:59:28   colors where like upgrade gets linked on six colors.

00:59:31   So I thought, oh, well, that's interesting.

00:59:32   Cause that's, I do a lot of copying pasting for that.

00:59:34   It's kind of annoying and labor intensive.

00:59:37   And I like to simplify that.

00:59:39   That's a great idea.

00:59:40   And he had a lot of good advice in there about how you use the, the get RSS, you know, get

00:59:45   an item from an RSS feed because podcasts are just RSS feeds and you can grab a bunch

00:59:49   of information.

00:59:50   You can get the title, you can get the link, which is the link to the page of the podcast.

00:59:55   It's like show notes page and the description of it, of the episode.

00:59:59   You can get all of that.

01:00:00   And then his next step was, and then I use this action, which is from the WordPress app,

01:00:07   which is post to WordPress.

01:00:08   And I thought, oh yeah, I don't use WordPress.

01:00:12   I use a 15, 20 year old piece of blogging software called movable type and it's got

01:00:19   an API, but it doesn't have an app.

01:00:20   And, uh, I had that moment where I thought, okay, I've thought about this a long time

01:00:26   and never done anything with it.

01:00:27   Why don't I do it this time?

01:00:29   Which is why don't I see if I can actually use shortcuts to connect to this web API and

01:00:36   post items into my blogging software that was built before the iPad or iPhone were,

01:00:43   uh, you know, even real and make it work.

01:00:47   And I did it.

01:00:49   I did it.

01:00:49   That's the short version of the story is I did it.

01:00:52   I had some help from Matthew Casanelli.

01:00:55   I had some help from Daniel Jelkut who writes Mars edit the blog editing software on the

01:00:59   Mac that uses these APIs.

01:01:00   I needed a couple of pieces of advice from Daniel.

01:01:04   And I, you know, it was something where, um, I had to find a blog post for this weird setting.

01:01:10   I was sitting, I'd finished writing a, uh, a story at Starbucks with my iPad and I was

01:01:16   sitting there kind of Googling around, seeing if I could figure out part of this problem.

01:01:19   Cause this saw this problem was in my head, right?

01:01:21   I needed to get it out.

01:01:22   I was like, how do I solve this?

01:01:23   How do I get this thing to work?

01:01:25   And I ended up finding a page on archive.org from a blog that no longer serves that page.

01:01:32   Um, actually what I found was I found an article about an esoteric thing that was a side note

01:01:36   to what I was trying to do.

01:01:37   That said now this, and it had a link and it said, now this thing on this blog, uh, is

01:01:43   for most people.

01:01:43   But then I had this weird thing that I needed and I had to build this thing.

01:01:45   And I looked and I was like, well, I don't need what this guy's building.

01:01:48   I just need the simple thing.

01:01:49   I clicked and it took me to a blank page.

01:01:51   It's like, Oh boy.

01:01:52   So I went to archive.org and I paste it in the URL and it, you know, it was in the way

01:01:56   back machine.

01:01:57   I was able to look at that blog that was posted in like 2004 or something, 2006.

01:02:02   Uh, I was able to look at that and it totally solved my problem.

01:02:07   And it was changing one line in the configuration file of movable type, uh, which, and it was

01:02:12   really funny.

01:02:13   So it's like, I'm looking at a 14, 15 year old blog post, um, copying text out of it,

01:02:18   opening prompt the, uh, SSH app from panic, uh, connecting to my web server, uh, using

01:02:25   a command line, you know, VI text editor to edit the config file and movable type and add

01:02:30   this item in.

01:02:31   And I'm like, how, how weird is this that I'm taking this advice from a 15 year old

01:02:36   blog post from before the iPad was conceived and sitting here doing this on an iPad, connecting

01:02:43   to a Unix server, all of this stuff.

01:02:45   That's movable type, man.

01:02:46   I saved, I mean, it's like what a world we live in where old tech and new tech can come

01:02:50   together.

01:02:50   So I save it out.

01:02:51   I go back, I run it again.

01:02:53   Totally worked.

01:02:54   Solved it.

01:02:55   Like totally worked.

01:02:56   So that was really cool.

01:02:57   Um, and in the end, I mean, yeah, it makes, it makes my, uh, life easier in a couple of

01:03:03   ways.

01:03:03   Just, uh, I've got a version of this that will take the post I'm working on in my text

01:03:06   editor of choice, which is I think the one that I annotated on six colors and a press

01:03:11   a couple, you know, press a key and tap something.

01:03:13   And it basically takes the contents of my file and puts it in the CMS.

01:03:17   So I don't have to paste it and click a bunch of boxes.

01:03:19   All I really have to do is prove it and press, you know, make this live.

01:03:24   And it'll make it live.

01:03:25   If I want to do that, I can actually ask me, do you want me to just post the story live?

01:03:29   So that's all great.

01:03:29   And then I did a podcast version of it inspired by Matthew Casanelli.

01:03:33   I, I did learn the limitations of shortcuts, which was hilarious.

01:03:37   Um, you know, my, I post a link to the MP3, right?

01:03:40   That's one of the things that I do is I push a link and it actually finds out the length

01:03:44   of the podcast and all of those things happen.

01:03:47   And that's not in the RSS thing.

01:03:49   The MP3 attachment is not in the RSS thing and shortcuts.

01:03:52   And I asked Matthew Casanelli about that and he said, well, here's what you do.

01:03:55   And this is shortcuts in a nutshell.

01:03:57   Here's what you do is since it gives you the URL of the, of the show notes page and the

01:04:01   show notes page has the MP3 link in it.

01:04:05   What you need to do is just go load the show notes page and shortcuts and, and extract

01:04:10   the MP3 URL.

01:04:11   And then you can use that.

01:04:13   It totally works.

01:04:15   Totally works.

01:04:15   Took me like 10 minutes to figure it out, but it totally works.

01:04:18   It's ridiculous, but it, it totally works.

01:04:20   So I made it all work in shortcuts.

01:04:23   I know Federico Viticci has done this before, and that's the source of a lot of different

01:04:27   shortcuts that people use, including, I think maybe you that involve hitting a web API.

01:04:31   And that's the, if I try to back up from the four people who are using movable type, I did

01:04:35   send a note to John Gruber and said, look what I did.

01:04:37   Cause he uses movable type.

01:04:38   Almost nobody else alive uses movable type, but I'm still using it for reasons.

01:04:43   We're not going to get into the reasons, but there are reasons.

01:04:46   The bigger picture is the power of shortcuts.

01:04:50   And I got to see it here, which is if, if something's got a web API, you can control it

01:04:57   with shortcuts.

01:04:57   That's the brilliance of it is it doesn't need to know about shortcuts.

01:05:01   It doesn't need to have been invented when shortcuts or the iPad or the iPhone existed.

01:05:06   And you can still do it because the web is a is the, the common language there and it

01:05:13   can speak it.

01:05:13   And I was very impressed, like I was trying to submit the way the API works as you're

01:05:17   submitting an XML file that basically is here's what I want you to do and what the content

01:05:22   is and go do this.

01:05:23   And I was getting errors from my server saying, you know, you need to send this as, as text

01:05:29   XML and you're sending it as form data or something.

01:05:32   And I asked Matthew Casanelli about that and he said, Oh, well, one of the things that's

01:05:37   in that shortcut block is setting all your headers, all your HTTP headers, which is like

01:05:43   super esoteric, but he says, yeah, so just put it in, put it that in, in the header of

01:05:47   content type text XML, and then it'll totally work.

01:05:51   And it did.

01:05:52   So my, my bigger point here is shortcuts is, is weird.

01:05:56   And it takes a lot, I think, to understand how the way it thinks.

01:06:00   And I wish there were better ways to annotate it.

01:06:02   And I wish there were better ways to educate people about how to use it.

01:06:05   But this, this instance last week was a great example of me figuring it out and using it

01:06:14   to do something that I didn't really think was possible that makes that super simplifies

01:06:20   my life because while there is not a web posting client that I can use for my blog, I was able

01:06:29   to basically make one out of the apps I use and shortcuts.

01:06:33   And that was pretty cool.

01:06:35   I remember the first flight that me and Federico took together to WWDC.

01:06:40   This is when, when shortcuts were still workflow.

01:06:43   He, he showed me his workflow that did this kind of thing for him.

01:06:50   And this was the first time that I'd really understood like, it just like, like from a,

01:06:54   like a visual level, the mastery he had over it.

01:06:58   So like he would have this, he would, it was like, it was, it had some slightly different

01:07:01   parts for him in that it's, it started with Zapier monitoring an RSS feed.

01:07:08   So when a new episode of a show was posted, it added a new task to Todoist with a link

01:07:16   to the workflow.

01:07:17   So it would pop up in Todoist, it would hit the link in the workflow.

01:07:20   It would go out to workflow, do all of the stuff, right?

01:07:23   So it could do all this stuff, then open like Ulysses or something, or OneWriter with it

01:07:27   all formatted in the way he wanted, which is like, that's the part that you have, right?

01:07:31   Like it formats it in, you're using OneWriter as well, right?

01:07:34   Yeah.

01:07:35   Is that right?

01:07:35   So like, or like it will format it or you're doing it on the other end.

01:07:38   Like, so it has it in the exact way that you want it written to be posted to the site.

01:07:43   So it was like, it's, it's funny to me, like that you, cause he was doing all this stuff

01:07:47   with new technologies, right?

01:07:49   He was using IFTTT and Zapier and WordPress.

01:07:52   And it's just funny that like, you have made this work with movable type.

01:07:56   That is adding, that is a monumental achievement.

01:07:59   I think it's, it's, I can't believe it.

01:08:01   It is incredibly, simultaneously impressive and stupid, which is what I was going for.

01:08:07   So it was that, but again, the larger issue is if you've got, and most things you use,

01:08:14   if you think, oh, the, I can't do this because it's not on my iPad or whatever.

01:08:18   Most things you use, if, if they are web or cloud oriented at all, they probably have

01:08:24   an API, I actually, during the, so I have my weather station, right?

01:08:29   During the fires, we were really monitoring the weather quality and I don't have, my weather

01:08:34   station doesn't do air quality.

01:08:36   But there is a website that has air quality maps.

01:08:40   And I noticed that they have an API and I was able to write a little thing for that.

01:08:45   It was for my, for my weather station page.

01:08:47   So I wrote in that in Apple script, but it could have been in anything and it could have

01:08:51   been a shortcut that basically queries the weather station API and gets back the weather

01:08:56   quality, the air quality there, the air quality API gets back the air quality.

01:09:00   And my point here is, again, if you want to grab a piece of information from something

01:09:05   that has a web service, they probably have an API.

01:09:08   And although the idea of an API to a non-programmer like me is intimidating, a lot of times it's

01:09:13   as simple as I pass a URL to them and they give me back a piece of information.

01:09:21   And if that piece of information is all you want, you've solved it.

01:09:25   So that's one of the nice things about so many things using the web for their backends

01:09:29   is that you have programmatic access to it.

01:09:33   And that's, it's pretty cool.

01:09:35   It's pretty cool.

01:09:36   Even if it is like an ancient piece of technology, like this was some of the earliest days of

01:09:40   offering an XML API for blogging software, right?

01:09:43   And the world has moved on a lot since then, but it's still there.

01:09:47   It still works.

01:09:47   And I was able to use it and that's pretty cool.

01:09:49   >> And I'll give one little plug here.

01:09:51   If this is of interest to you, this type of stuff, one, you should be listening to Automators

01:09:55   and Relay FM with David Sparks and Rosemary Orchard.

01:09:58   The others I actually remember as soon as I said it, they did an episode a few weeks

01:10:03   ago about Zapier web automation where they talk about how they use Zapier and shortcuts

01:10:07   to post all of the stuff that they need for Automators.

01:10:10   So it's all in there.

01:10:12   These tools are available to you.

01:10:13   And I will echo what you said about APIs as well because terrifying to me, right?

01:10:17   I don't understand it.

01:10:19   But if you can get your head around a specific thing, and a lot of these APIs are nicely

01:10:25   documented, right?

01:10:27   >> Yeah, absolutely.

01:10:28   And a lot of times you're literally just pushing things into a URL where it's like,

01:10:32   hey, here's this URL and at the end you say, and this is what I want in like question mark

01:10:37   content equals this.

01:10:40   And then it just is like, great.

01:10:42   And it gives you back what you want.

01:10:43   It sometimes can be very easy.

01:10:45   >> And so like then you kind of have this power to you, right?

01:10:49   Like it's super interesting.

01:10:51   And what I love is that for people like me, there are more and more resources every day

01:10:58   to help make this stuff easier.

01:11:00   >> Yeah.

01:11:01   I want to say like it's time tracking was one of the big ones that this came out that

01:11:06   there was like a like toggle or something.

01:11:08   There's a web-based time.

01:11:09   Like where the app, even if there was an app, like it didn't have a shortcut.

01:11:13   >> Toggle's app sucks.

01:11:14   >> Right.

01:11:15   But you can use their web API to turn time tracking on and off for projects.

01:11:19   >> Right.

01:11:19   That was a big thing for a lot of us, right?

01:11:21   Like learning how to wrangle the toggle API so we could actually build something that

01:11:26   was okay to use.

01:11:27   That like for Federico and for me, like that kind of helped push me into understanding

01:11:33   what could be done there.

01:11:34   And like I would take his shortcuts and adapt them.

01:11:37   And as I was looking at it, I was kind of getting my head around how it all works and

01:11:40   super cool, super cool stuff.

01:11:43   Shortcuts is awesome.

01:11:45   Like we had somebody tweet to us a couple of days ago and they were like, "Oh, do you

01:11:50   know how I can encode videos into HEVC?"

01:11:57   >> Yeah, media files.

01:11:58   And there isn't an encoding task in iOS.

01:12:02   How do I do this?

01:12:03   And I saw that and your answer was shortcuts.

01:12:05   >> Yep.

01:12:05   Because I saw the question and I was like, I bet shortcuts can do this because this is

01:12:11   how I start now.

01:12:12   Like this is a difference I think that you have to kind of get your head around when

01:12:16   trying to use iOS more seriously.

01:12:18   If I ever have a question like that, even if I don't know, I always go to shortcuts

01:12:23   because most of the time there's a way to do it there.

01:12:28   And like there's an encode media block.

01:12:30   I open it up.

01:12:31   One of the options was HEVC media.

01:12:33   I was like, I just took a screenshot and I sent it to him.

01:12:35   I was like, here you go.

01:12:36   And he's like, oh, great.

01:12:37   Like, and I get it because it's like if you're not, if you're used to a computer that can

01:12:42   just do all this stuff in all the myriad ways a computer can do it, you wouldn't necessarily

01:12:47   think to look in shortcuts.

01:12:49   But shortcuts, most of the time, at least for me, has an answer for you.

01:12:54   And I genuinely hope and believe that there will be more and more answers provided by

01:13:00   this application over time.

01:13:01   So super cool.

01:13:02   Thank you for sharing that, Jason.

01:13:04   >> Yeah, it was fun.

01:13:06   >> All right, we should get into some hashtag ask upgrade questions.

01:13:09   But before we do, let me thank our final sponsor for this week, and that is our friends over

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01:14:29   So you will do less work and spend less time chasing stuff and more time doing whatever

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01:15:00   Our thanks to FreshBooks for their support of this show and Relay FM.

01:15:04   So Mr. Jason Snell, it is time for some #AskUpgrade questions.

01:15:10   And our first question comes from Steven.

01:15:13   Steven wants to know, "Jason, are you still using your Intel NUC Hackintosh?"

01:15:19   No.

01:15:20   So for those who have not heard this story, it was doing something very strange.

01:15:27   The Intel NUC that I had set up as a Mac mini replacement from my Mac mini server that was,

01:15:33   as I mentioned earlier, occasionally locking itself up.

01:15:37   And the problem with the Intel NUC Hackintosh was that occasionally it was sending out some

01:15:43   sort of network signal that basically crashed my network, my entire home network.

01:15:48   And literally it would crash, the network would crash, I would unplug the ethernet cable from

01:15:54   the back and the whole network would start working again.

01:15:57   And I thought, "This is bad."

01:15:58   So, and I had seen this earlier and I had done some stuff and it had fixed it.

01:16:03   So I was like, "Okay, well, what I'm going to do is I'm going to update it.

01:16:05   I'm going to update it to the latest version of Mac OS, which is a fraud thing with a Hackintosh."

01:16:10   And I did the update and the update failed.

01:16:15   And I did a whole bunch of stuff following all the instructions to get it to properly

01:16:19   update and it never would.

01:16:21   And at that point I unplugged it and put it in a drawer and took the old Mac mini back

01:16:27   out, restored it from the backup that I'd been making and put that smart switch back

01:16:34   on it because it's, you know, in the time that I did it every three or four weeks, there

01:16:38   would be a day where it would just die and I'd need to power cycle it.

01:16:41   And then on day one, I bought a Mac mini or I guess I got a Mac mini review unit from

01:16:49   Apple and was like, "Yes," and then immediately bought one for myself and sent that one back

01:16:53   because they want it back.

01:16:54   But I now have mine and it works great.

01:16:57   So the Hackintosh is no more, the Intel NUC is still here and I'm still kind of toying

01:17:02   with what else I could use it for.

01:17:04   But right now it's just sitting in a box.

01:17:06   I feel like this is just an eventual thing with every Hackintosh.

01:17:15   Oh yeah.

01:17:16   Yeah.

01:17:16   I mean, if you can get them to work, it's fine.

01:17:18   But this is why I don't recommend them.

01:17:19   I bought it because I was interested in exploring what a little Mac mini might be like and what

01:17:24   it costs versus what the Mac mini was doing.

01:17:27   And quite frankly, there was four years where nothing happened with the Mac mini.

01:17:29   So we were bored and it was something to talk about.

01:17:32   But in the end, it was so much work.

01:17:35   And once you get it up and running, like any little thing, and I don't know what was up

01:17:39   with the ethernet thing, but like any little thing and it all can come down in pieces,

01:17:44   which it did.

01:17:45   So maybe I'll just install Windows on it and I don't know what would I do with that.

01:17:50   I'm not quite sure.

01:17:51   Or maybe I'll donate it or something.

01:17:53   We'll see.

01:17:53   But right now it is just in a box.

01:17:56   It's a little box because it's a little computer.

01:17:59   Michael has asked, what are your thoughts about the Apple Watch's Halo effect three years

01:18:06   in?

01:18:06   I just spent some time with a Pixel 3 and the Apple Watch was one of the biggest things

01:18:11   pulling me back to iOS.

01:18:12   So what do you think?

01:18:13   Do you think the Apple Watch has like a, I don't know if Halo effect is the right word,

01:18:19   but like a lock-in.

01:18:20   Do you think that it is locking people in?

01:18:22   Yes, absolutely.

01:18:23   I do.

01:18:24   As somebody who wears an Apple Watch every day and likes my Apple Watch a lot, I occasionally

01:18:29   will have an Android phone or something that I want to try out or even a different iPhone.

01:18:34   Like when I was reviewing the XR.

01:18:36   And it's a little less painful with the cellular model because if it's nowhere near its buddy,

01:18:42   it still gets some data.

01:18:43   But especially before the cellular models came out, like it's, it's when I was trying out

01:18:48   various Android phones, like a Pixel or before that, the Nexus 5.

01:18:52   Yeah.

01:18:55   Like the, I was like, Oh, my watch won't work.

01:18:58   Like, I mean, it'll be on my wrist, but in those days it's like there was no cellular,

01:19:02   so it would just not work.

01:19:04   Now it's a little bit less bad to use something temporarily, but I think, yes, I think it

01:19:09   is powerful.

01:19:10   If you are really into the Apple Watch, it makes it very hard for you to even try out

01:19:15   a phone.

01:19:15   And of course, if you really are considering as a, as a, you know, regular phone user replacing

01:19:20   your iPhone with an Android phone and you have an Apple Watch, you know, you are, you're

01:19:25   replacing your watch at that point too, right?

01:19:27   Like you have to give them both up.

01:19:28   You can't just give one up.

01:19:30   And I, I think for people who like the Apple Watch, it is a really powerful way to keep

01:19:33   people in Apple's ecosystem.

01:19:35   No doubt.

01:19:36   I will agree that I can see how it is.

01:19:41   I mean, I've moved away from the Apple Watch, but that doesn't, you know, when I know that

01:19:46   when I was wearing it, it was definitely part of what kept me in the ecosystem so happily,

01:19:52   right?

01:19:52   Like I was less willing to want to try something out because of this reason as well, right?

01:19:57   Like I would be less willing to change to try out Android for a period of time because

01:20:03   this would be one of the very, one of the many difficult things, right?

01:20:06   Like if I want to wear my watch, that's not going to work on my phone anymore.

01:20:10   I mean, the biggest one for me is iMessage.

01:20:12   Like that is the bigger lock-in of just trying to untangle the mess as well as it being more

01:20:18   of just a general pain to get in touch with people.

01:20:20   But like trying to untangle my iPhone from like my phone number, I should say from iMessage,

01:20:26   not an easy thing to do is my understanding.

01:20:28   But I do understand how the Apple Watch is another thing that can keep somebody locked

01:20:34   into the system.

01:20:35   It makes perfect sense.

01:20:36   Layton says, "Now the Apple Music is coming to the Echo and has already been available

01:20:43   on Sonos.

01:20:45   If I buy a Sonos One, would I then be able to play Apple Music via Alexa or would I still

01:20:51   be restricted in the way it is currently?"

01:20:54   So I would say, wait and see, because we haven't even seen yet exactly how Apple Music is going

01:21:05   to work on the Echo, right?

01:21:07   Now, I think it is assumed that it will work how Spotify works or, you know, so you can

01:21:13   just set it up as your default music service.

01:21:15   That's what it should do.

01:21:16   That's what everybody wants.

01:21:17   We don't know that yet.

01:21:18   And another thing is a data point for you, that device, the Sonos One, did not support

01:21:25   Spotify for a while through the official Echo integration.

01:21:30   It took some time for, I don't know why, but then it eventually started working.

01:21:35   So even if Apple Music works exactly as you would want to on Echo devices, I would wait

01:21:43   to see if it then works on the Sonos One in the same way.

01:21:47   And again, what is Apple Music's Sonos integration then?

01:21:50   Because I know that exists, so does it not work with the Sonos One?

01:21:54   I don't understand.

01:21:55   Do you know?

01:21:58   So Sonos One will, Sonos plays Apple Music.

01:22:03   Right.

01:22:05   But you can't control it via the voice assistant.

01:22:07   Oh, okay.

01:22:09   So the hope would be that if you use Apple Music via the Alexa integration with the Sonos,

01:22:18   that's too many levels.

01:22:19   Yeah, I think my gut feeling is that it won't work because what Sonos is doing is they've

01:22:24   got Apple Music over here and they've got Alexa over here and they don't meet.

01:22:32   Now, it would be great if they did and maybe they will, but I wouldn't bet on it for certain.

01:22:37   And given, as you said, what we don't know about the Echo integration and how it's, you

01:22:43   know, even if it does come to Sonos One, is it going to come right away?

01:22:46   Probably not.

01:22:47   And if it does, when will it come?

01:22:49   And we just don't know.

01:22:50   So I wouldn't make any bets about it.

01:22:53   I think we're all going to have to wait and see.

01:22:55   I was thinking how, and this will also probably not be the case, is like Echo, Echo support

01:23:02   the multi-room stuff and control of other devices.

01:23:07   And that's a place where I'm sure this is not going to cross over at all, right?

01:23:11   Because what I'd really like is for my Echo to be able to see my other devices on my network

01:23:18   and be able to play that Apple Music on them too, like on HomePods or on a Sonos.

01:23:24   And that's not going to happen because then you start to get into HomeKit versus the Amazon

01:23:30   IoT ecosystem and it all kind of comes apart.

01:23:33   So I think this being, it's more likely that this is a single thing that may eventually

01:23:39   lead to a little bit more around it, but I don't think it's going to be a groundbreaking

01:23:44   like complete the wall comes down kind of thing at all.

01:23:47   So I would wait about the Sonos One because I bet you it's not going to work the way you

01:23:53   want it to.

01:23:56   Rajeev asks, do you know of any way to mute Siri's responses when using the Ohoy telephone

01:24:01   command?

01:24:02   If I'm using it on my HomePod for HomeKit stuff, I prefer that Siri just performs the

01:24:06   command silently without any feedback.

01:24:09   This is one of those times where I feel like I know the answer to this, but I hope that

01:24:15   there is a way that nobody knows about except one Upgradient that knows and can tell me

01:24:19   and help me.

01:24:21   So on your phone, you can say I want no responses or minimal responses for Siri.

01:24:29   And yes, I would love it if there is a command so you could say Ohoy HomePod, don't talk,

01:24:37   quit your jibber jabber.

01:24:38   But I don't think there is so and it's not in the settings either because I checked the

01:24:45   HomePod settings and it's not in there.

01:24:47   You can't go into the HomePod settings and say minimal response or whatever.

01:24:50   Just you can't.

01:24:52   Yeah, I again, I know this is the case, but I really want someone to go, Oh, if you just

01:24:58   do this that.

01:24:58   Yeah, I know because I love I would love to be able to say Ohoy HomePod turn on the dehumidifier

01:25:05   and have it not go.

01:25:06   Okay.

01:25:07   I see.

01:25:09   I wish it only just said okay.

01:25:11   Like it's just like your dehumidifier is now on.

01:25:17   Did I tell you a couple that I tell you like recently it went to me voila like that not

01:25:21   voila voila your scene is set.

01:25:23   Oh, it's like everybody British accent Siri.

01:25:29   Don't give me French words.

01:25:30   No, right.

01:25:30   Like don't we're all good here.

01:25:32   Voila voila.

01:25:33   Yeah.

01:25:35   Yeah.

01:25:38   Yeah.

01:25:39   So where is this minimal responses thing for Siri on the iPhone?

01:25:44   There's settings there's like voice feedback and and there you got a few options there that

01:25:49   are like, oh, yeah always control with ring switch hands free only.

01:25:52   Yeah, so you can tell it basically don't talk to me unless I'm hands free.

01:25:57   That's really cool, which is not the same as don't ever talk to me, but it is better

01:26:02   than better than nothing.

01:26:04   Brian asks if you're giving a games console as a gift what is the socially appropriate

01:26:10   number of games to give with it if any.

01:26:13   Now I want to get your opinion on this is apparent.

01:26:16   Um, I and I this may have been a originally for a for Syracuse a question, but well see

01:26:24   this is my thing.

01:26:24   I know it was but I took umbrage to that because I like video games.

01:26:28   Yeah, I know.

01:26:29   I know you do.

01:26:30   So for me for me, I mean first off you've got to really like somebody to give them a

01:26:34   game console as a gift.

01:26:35   So it's going to be a partner or child probably in your life.

01:26:40   I would say for me, I think you should get I think the game console that you give should

01:26:48   be playable.

01:26:49   So if it does not come with a game you should you should get a game because there is nothing

01:26:55   worse than the you know, empty box under the Christmas tree.

01:26:59   We got we got you a thing that doesn't do anything until you buy more things is not

01:27:03   that's not what you did.

01:27:06   If you give no gift you bought somebody an obligation.

01:27:09   Exactly right exactly right now.

01:27:11   Yeah, and and what's what blows me away is that a lot of consoles don't come with games

01:27:15   now or all consoles don't come with games now.

01:27:17   They all come with no games.

01:27:18   That was a standard for for so long like you bought a Wii you got Wii Sports right you

01:27:23   bought a an Atari back when I was a kid and you got you got like combat it was dumb.

01:27:28   It was a dumb game, but it was a game that played on the box and now this latest generation

01:27:33   of consoles unless you buy a fancy like special edition you don't get a game.

01:27:38   You don't get a game and that was my frustration with with the the switch for example was like

01:27:43   come on just Pat put something on the memory card that's in there just put something in

01:27:48   there that's playable.

01:27:49   They're like nope.

01:27:49   You just got to buy them you can download them and I get it like, you know, they they've

01:27:54   got online app stores too.

01:27:55   So you can just go in there and log in and get your stuff and whatever but so I would

01:27:59   say you need to make a playable.

01:28:00   So when we got Julie on the switch, I bought Mario Kart and had it with it so we could

01:28:07   we could have it with Mario Kart and so out of the box he was able to play a game and

01:28:11   then he could get more.

01:28:12   And I will add to this that like if you're buying a console like an Xbox or a PlayStation

01:28:20   like a big heavy console and you're buying a game open it yourself and get it set up

01:28:25   before Christmas morning.

01:28:28   So when it is opened it can be played without having to wait for 20 hours for all of the

01:28:37   game updates and all of the like so for example if you're buying like a PlayStation with

01:28:42   Red Dead Redemption for someone for this Christmas, even if you buy the disc you have to wait

01:28:47   for multiple hours for the game to install onto the PlayStation.

01:28:52   So do all of that get it ready and then give it as the gift that would be my next level

01:28:59   for you there and then you'll be very happy.

01:29:02   And finally today, Emma asks, does Myke use a popsocket with his smaller iPad or has he

01:29:07   considered it?

01:29:08   So no, I use a popsocket with my phone and I like it.

01:29:12   I now use a popsocket on my Kindle, which Gray came up with on the most recent episode

01:29:16   of Cortex and it's amazing because I got the Kindle Oasis to read some books for Cortex

01:29:25   and it's still like, I said this in the episode, it was very light, still just a little bit

01:29:33   heavier than I would want or like a little bit bigger than I would want right?

01:29:36   And now with a popsocket like it's very, it's like super super easy to hold with just one

01:29:42   hand so love that.

01:29:44   But no, I haven't thought about putting it on my smaller iPad for a bunch of reasons.

01:29:48   One, a popsocket on an iPad feels more disruptive to me because it's a device that I will more

01:29:54   frequently lay on a flat surface.

01:29:55   I would not like to use the keyboard like to put it on the case because sometimes I flip

01:30:04   the keys around and then it wouldn't be flat.

01:30:06   And also as well with how I hold my devices, a popsocket is less required.

01:30:12   Like I don't ever hold my iPads in one hand like for like extended periods of time.

01:30:17   And that's why I do it right?

01:30:19   Like it's so I have a better grip on my iPhone.

01:30:22   The devices are just held differently.

01:30:24   So it's a different equation for me with the iPads than it is with some of my other devices.

01:30:32   But I know people do it and I can see why you would do it because I actually see quite

01:30:37   a lot of people put two on a bigger device like that.

01:30:39   So you can hold them easily with both hands.

01:30:41   Perfectly valid.

01:30:42   It's just not something that I have tried and nor do I think I will try either.

01:30:48   But do love pop sockets though.

01:30:50   They're really great.

01:30:51   Really great.

01:30:52   If you would like to get our show notes for this week, relay.fm/upgrades/223 for that.

01:30:58   You can also find them in your podcast app of choice.

01:31:01   I wanted to just extend a thank you, Jason, to everybody who bought Upgrade merch.

01:31:06   Oh, yeah.

01:31:07   Thank you so much.

01:31:08   It's all done now.

01:31:09   Thank you.

01:31:10   To all.

01:31:10   Like the response to the Dungletown t-shirt was amazing.

01:31:13   Thank you to everybody who did do that.

01:31:17   I was I don't know about you, Jason, but I was blown away by by how many of those we

01:31:21   sold.

01:31:21   So thank you so much.

01:31:23   We don't have anything on sale right now, except for a very, very small amount of the

01:31:30   enamel pins left.

01:31:31   Yeah, I think so.

01:31:32   We have just a few handfuls of those left, so they're going to stay around for a while.

01:31:37   And then when they're gone, they're gone.

01:31:38   But if you do want an upgrade enamel pin, there is one there.

01:31:41   But thank you to everybody that bought some of our merch.

01:31:44   Thank you to FreshBooks, Luna Display and Hopsie for their support of this episode.

01:31:49   Don't forget that we're going to be doing Myke at the Movies next week with Miracle

01:31:53   on 34th Street.

01:31:54   So if you want to watch along, you can.

01:31:57   You can find Jason online.

01:31:59   He is on Twitter is @jsnell, J S N E double L.

01:32:02   And you can find Jason's work at sixcolors.com, the incomparable.com.

01:32:06   I'm right here on Relay FM.

01:32:08   I host many shows here at Relay FM as well.

01:32:11   And you can find me on Instagram.

01:32:12   I am I Myke.

01:32:13   I am Y K E.

01:32:15   We'll be back next time.

01:32:17   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:32:19   Goodbye, John Siracusa.

01:32:21   No, that's OK.

01:32:22   Wait, I have a second.

01:32:25   So every week, are you saying goodbye to last week's Myke or this week's Myke?

01:32:31   How does that look?

01:32:32   It's a good question.

01:32:32   I'm not sure.

01:32:34   I'm not sure.