219: The Chicken Just Laid an Egg


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade Episode 219. Today's show is brought to you by Pingdom,

00:00:15   Luna Display, and hello, my name is Myke Hurley. I am joined by Jason Snell. Hi, Jason Snell.

00:00:21   Hello, Myke Hurley. We have a big show today. We have an iPad extravaganza.

00:00:27   iPad pro extravaganza. Yes, yes, it's time. It is time, but we have a lot to get to before then,

00:00:34   starting with #SnellTalk, and today's question comes from Carlos, and Carlos wants to know,

00:00:41   "If Jason could appear on any of the classic game shows like Jeopardy,

00:00:45   Price is Right, that kind of thing, past or present, which would it be and why?"

00:00:51   Oh, wow, wow, wow. I feel like if I wanted to take the pressure, I would be on Jeopardy because I've

00:00:58   thought about being on Jeopardy. I think I would probably be bad at Jeopardy, although I know from

00:01:04   our friend Glenn Fleischman's experience on Jeopardy that what you do when you get on Jeopardy

00:01:09   is you study before you do it and you learn all the presidents in order and things like that so

00:01:15   that you've got all that stuff in your back pocket. But otherwise, I love The Price is Right, but I

00:01:22   think I would be bad at the pricing part of it. So I'm going to say, I'm just going to take this

00:01:28   out of left field. I want to be one of the panelists on...because the question is could

00:01:33   appear on a classic game show. I want to be one of the panelists on Match Game. I'd be one of those

00:01:38   six people who sits over there and comes up with wacky words to fill in the blank to frustrate the

00:01:45   contestants. So I want to be one of the celebrity panelists on Match Game.

00:01:51   - So what you're saying is we need to do some kind of podcast as Match Game.

00:01:56   - Oh my, yeah. So on The Incomparable Game Show, we've done some of what we call the game of

00:02:02   matching, totally distinct, not the same at all, where we've done something like that. And it's

00:02:07   actually a lot of fun to do that, to play a game like that where you fill in the blank. So you say,

00:02:13   "Dumb Donald was so dumb. How dumb was he? When he turned on the light switch in the living room,

00:02:20   he thought he would see a blank." I don't know what that is. And then you have to fill in the

00:02:25   blank and then the contestant has to guess. It's fun. It's silly. And the pressure would be off

00:02:30   because all I'd have to do is make jokes. - There's a lot of links in the show notes

00:02:34   to various Incomparable episodes now that include discussions of Jeopardy and Match Game. So if you

00:02:40   want to get those, go to our show notes and you can get them. So thank you so much to Carlos for

00:02:45   the Snell Talk question. You can send in a question to open any episode of this show with the #SnellTalk

00:02:51   and we pick one from your submissions. Thank you to Carlos for doing that. We have some follow-up

00:02:57   for today's show. iOS 12.1.1, the beta which is currently available, brings notification

00:03:04   previews via Haptic Touch to the iPhone XR. This was one of the big things that I was talking about

00:03:09   last week in our iPhone XR review that I really wanted was to be able to, when using the iPhone XR,

00:03:15   to use what is effectively 3D Touch, but Haptic Touch, right, like the long pressing, to be able

00:03:21   to see the notification content. So if you get a notification, you can preview it. This wasn't

00:03:26   available currently with the iPhone XR, but will be in an upcoming software update, which I think

00:03:31   is fantastic. I'm pleased to see that Apple are doing what they said, which was that they would

00:03:37   expand Haptic Touch to places that it was needed and they're doing it already, which I think is

00:03:42   fantastic. Especially like it's not even 12.2 probably that it's going to come out in, right?

00:03:47   Like it's a point update of 12.1, so I think that's really awesome. Yeah, that's great.

00:03:52   Bridge keyboard, we talk about them a bunch sometime in the next week or two. I think we both

00:03:57   have the 10.5 inch version, so for the previous iPad Pro on the way, because I know they just

00:04:02   shipped that, but we saw that they were talking over the weekend, they've shown some kind of

00:04:09   renderings of what they're going to be doing for the new iPad Pros, apparently going to be shipping

00:04:14   new versions of their keyboards in 2019, which I expect you are as excited about as I am.

00:04:20   Yeah, I'm very excited about that. They were kind of trolling us, they showed us a really,

00:04:27   really lousy Logitech keyboard design and we're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't do it.

00:04:30   Don't go to the dark side. And they're like, no, we're just kidding. We have a thing that's

00:04:35   very much like the old one, which is funny because they're, you know, there's not a lot of bezel space

00:04:41   in there to put those little clips on, but they think they can do it. So I hope they can.

00:04:45   Yeah, I remain skeptical. Like I have faith in their ability as a company to make good technology.

00:04:51   But I also know from experience that they've had some shaky first attempts at things. And I can't

00:04:58   understand how this is going to really have a strong connection because the clip is so small.

00:05:05   I mean, we don't see what the back looks like or anything. So, you know, I'm very keen to see.

00:05:10   Yeah, I was kind of hoping that it would be a magnetized back that would be used to support

00:05:15   it rather than putting all the weight in the clips because there are those magnets back there that

00:05:18   they could just make a back that you clip, you know, you just touch it on to and then it stays.

00:05:23   But yeah, if it works, that's great. Also, they put those pictures out like the day that they

00:05:27   came out and I feel like their next step is probably that they've got them now and are

00:05:32   figuring out what's practical now that they actually have one of these iPads.

00:05:37   Yeah, so they may I think there might be some slight changes from the renderings that we see,

00:05:40   but who knows? I'm all I'll say is like, I cannot wait for these. I really hope that they're as good

00:05:45   as the current versions. Because I do sorely miss my my bridge keyboard, maybe not as much as I

00:05:52   thought that I would have. We'll get to that a little bit later on in the show. We had a I was

00:05:57   really happy with our episode last week, where we reviewed all of all the great Macs. So that was

00:06:03   really fun. But Jason's review from Six Colors got quoted on Apple's newsroom, which I just think is

00:06:10   a notable thing because I wanted to congratulate you, Jason, because that is quite an achievement

00:06:15   to be amongst a handful, the five or so reviews that were picked about the Mac Mini. They chose

00:06:22   your quote about how the new Mac Mini is exactly what it needs to be, which I think was a which is

00:06:27   a great quote. And I'm really pleased that Apple picked it because you were making a statement

00:06:33   there. And I'm pleased that they at least from a PR perspective seem to agree with it.

00:06:38   Yeah, it was it's it's strange because you know, they're picking it because it is something that

00:06:44   reflects positively on their products. And I don't write my articles to be quoted by Apple,

00:06:51   right? I write them so that people read them who want to think about the products that Apple is

00:06:56   making. But I'm glad I mean, it's it's nice visibility to be there. It's nice to be recognized

00:07:02   and noticed and that somebody at Apple is actually reading what I write. That's, that's cool. So,

00:07:07   so yeah, that was that was awesome to see. That's, it's on the same level as sort of like when Phil

00:07:12   Schiller tweets a link to something you wrote, where again, I'm not writing it to please Phil

00:07:17   Schiller, but it's kind of cool that he's got a lot of people paying attention to him that that

00:07:21   he tweeted out my iMac Pro review last December. So it's it's kind of on that level. It's cool. I've

00:07:27   never been to my knowledge. I've never been quoted in Apple PR before. I remember at one point when I

00:07:33   was working at IDG, there was a PC World logo and quote in a in a presentation and that was exciting

00:07:40   for them and less exciting for me because I wasn't in charge of PC World at that point and they were

00:07:45   kind of competition. But yeah, it's nice to be be noticed. And lastly, a couple of weeks ago,

00:07:53   you were we were talking about the changing sizes of iPads and you created a audio comic for our

00:08:02   listeners, which podcast artist to the stars, Kate Matthews, went and created an actual little comic

00:08:10   strip out of and I think it's very cute and very funny and it's in our show notes if people want

00:08:15   to find it. Yes, thank you, Kate. We are bringing back Myke at the Movies. It has been a long time

00:08:22   for Myke at the Movies and there has been no Myke at the Movies. I actually we've only done two this

00:08:28   entire year. So we're going to be finishing out this year. We're going to be doing a couple. The

00:08:33   first one is going to be in two weeks time and we are going to be doing a movie that I have never

00:08:39   seen but feel like I should have seen by now. My Neighbor Totoro. Yeah, Miyazaki. We're going

00:08:46   we're going with some animation and this is a delightful movie. I love it so much.

00:08:52   I talked about it on the Uncomfortable with John Syracuse and many others and I'm excited for you

00:08:58   to see it. So that's going to be on the episode that will come out on the 26th of November. So

00:09:04   you have two weeks to watch My Neighbor Totoro. But there's more exciting news than that, Jason

00:09:09   Snow. You know how excited I am. We're not doing a draft. We're doing something that I think I enjoy

00:09:16   even more than the drafts. Is it the first annual of something? Because we remember there's no first

00:09:21   annual of every of anything at all. No, it's so much better than first. It is the fifth annual

00:09:27   upgrade ease. Oh boy, they're on their way. Fifth annual. Now that sounds really exciting. They are

00:09:35   coming at the end of the year but voting is now open. So there will be a Google form in the show

00:09:43   notes where you can go and submit your votes for the fifth annual upgrade ease. Very, very excited

00:09:51   about this. It is worth noting, you know, we're opening the voting a little early. So stuff like

00:09:56   the movies category doesn't have all of the entries in yet, but they will. So you may want to go in

00:10:02   and amend your votes later on. But we are going to be opening up the upgrade ease again, just like we

00:10:08   did last year, to hear from you, the upgrade-ians. We want you to complete the survey and let us know

00:10:14   your favorites in each of the categories. These results will be pulled together and they will have

00:10:19   an impact in every single category as they did last year. But some categories will be 100%

00:10:26   decided by the upgrade-ians. Me and Jason will be coming together over the next few weeks to decide

00:10:31   which ones exactly they will be, but it is now available. So we will announce a closing date for

00:10:38   nominations sometime in the next few weeks, but you've got some time so go in, think about it,

00:10:43   and we'll be talking about it as time goes on. But this is for the 2018 upgrade ease, which is our

00:10:47   fifth annual, which I am absolutely thrilled about, Jason Snow. Yep, it's hard to believe

00:10:55   that we've done five of them, but here we are. It's great. I know it's your favorite thing,

00:11:02   but it's a fun way to look back on the year and to get the listeners involved too, which is great.

00:11:06   So you can go and submit your votes and every vote counts. It's very important, so make sure you get

00:11:13   yours in. I would like to triumphantly, the triumphant return I should say, of Upstream.

00:11:21   Oh Upstream, how I've missed you. I have a few big, big pieces of Upstream news today.

00:11:26   Okay. First off, Disney streaming service has a name. No, it is not called the Disney Vault,

00:11:33   as many people wanted it to be, which I agree would have been a fantastic name.

00:11:37   It's going to be called Disney+. This goes right with ESPN+, right? Yep, which is also from Disney,

00:11:43   so you know, it makes sense that they're expanding their branding, like I get it. It's not the most

00:11:48   exciting name, but it's clear. Yeah. So Disney+ is going to still be on target for launch in late

00:11:57   2019, is the plan. This information all came from Bob Iger on a conference call. They also announced

00:12:03   another Star Wars series, which will be focused on the Rogue One kind of timeframe and will star

00:12:09   Diego Luna. So it's another Star Wars series. They announced some other more Marvel projects

00:12:16   and stuff like that that they're looking at doing. They also spent some time focusing on Hulu and

00:12:21   talking about Hulu because it's, you know, Disney owns 60% of Hulu now. They dodged all questions

00:12:27   about if they've tried to buy the rest of it, but it does seem like no matter whatever the case is,

00:12:33   Disney is steering the ship at Hulu. They will be focusing Hulu on general entertainment,

00:12:41   whilst Disney+ will focus solely on Disney properties. And Disney are looking to expand

00:12:47   Hulu internationally, which is exciting news. I gotta do that. They gotta do that. They want

00:12:52   to use this as a platform for some of their stuff. I think all the stuff they're getting from Fox

00:12:58   will be helping feed that. And it's a US-only service because it was based on US TV networks.

00:13:03   And now it's going to be something different. Hulu is going to be very different in five years

00:13:07   from what it is now. But I think this is what we all kind of expected, which is that they're

00:13:10   going to use it as a vehicle to get a bunch of other stuff out internationally that is separate

00:13:16   from the Disney brand. Like Disney+, calling it Disney+ and not giving it a name that is,

00:13:22   like, a weird name is the Disney branding, like, makes it clear, like, this has got the stamp of

00:13:26   the Disney, you know, Disney on it. And so there's going to be... We talk about Apple being wanting,

00:13:32   like, family-friendly entertainment on its service. You know, if you're going to call it Disney,

00:13:38   there's not going to be any rated-R Marvel shows on Disney+, right? It's not going to happen.

00:13:43   Not with that name. Maybe on Hulu, not on Disney+. So that's a clear difference. Where Hulu,

00:13:50   different brand, it's going to have a lot of different stuff on it. That's where you're

00:13:53   going to get your "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia" and "The Simpsons" and who

00:13:56   knows what else will go there. Things that Disney is going to own but will not want under the Disney

00:14:01   brand. The Information is reporting that Apple plans to launch their streaming service in the

00:14:08   first half of 2019 in the U.S. but is planning to roll the app and service out to 100 countries

00:14:15   within the following months. So they're planning on having, by the end of 2019, this thing available

00:14:20   in literally as many places as possible, which is good to know.

00:14:25   - This is great. One of the questions was how fast was the rollout going to be and when it was going

00:14:28   to happen. And for the last... I feel like, Myke, for the last year and a half, we've had a bunch

00:14:32   of people say at every single Apple event, "Are they going to announce their TV service?" And we

00:14:36   keep saying, "Mm, probably not, probably not." And then recently it's been very much like, "Mm,

00:14:41   2019." And we're almost in 2019 now and this is when it's going to happen. They've been on the job

00:14:47   for more than a year now developing content and we're going to get that strategy in 2019.

00:14:53   And this information story is interesting because not only does it peg it and say,

00:14:58   "First half of 2019 is when they're going to launch this thing," but within months, it will be rolling

00:15:03   out over 100 different countries. And that is something that I think we all knew that they would

00:15:09   do, that there is no way Apple is going to build a video streaming service if it can't roll out all

00:15:14   the content everywhere. There's just no way. There are some individual things about local content

00:15:19   being generated and things like that that deal with access to some markets. You got to have

00:15:26   French content in France, things like that. - But we've been talking about them

00:15:31   ramping all that stuff up. They've been making hires, right? So they are very aware of this.

00:15:36   - Yeah, absolutely. So this is, it's not quite as simple as just flipping the switch and turning it

00:15:39   on everywhere, but I don't think this is going to be a Hulu situation either. So it's good to hear

00:15:45   that even if they launch in the US first, and they might not, they might launch in a handful

00:15:50   of countries first, but the idea is that they want to roll it out everywhere quickly. And that

00:15:54   leaves us to the big question, which is what's it going to cost? What's the preview going to be?

00:15:59   What content is going to be available at launch? And that's all still a little bit of a mystery.

00:16:04   - Here's my other question though. All right, first half. So when then? Like,

00:16:09   WWDC? Please not again. - No.

00:16:13   - Right? Because, you know, did Apple Music at WWDC?

00:16:16   - I would imagine a spring event. That's going to be my guess is I think they'll do a spring event.

00:16:20   They'll have an event in like April and they'll do this.

00:16:24   - That would make sense, right? - They'll launch this. Unless there's a,

00:16:29   the other thing I'll say is like, unless there's like a TV industry event that they want to tie

00:16:32   into, but my guess is that it'll be the only thing that I would, I mean, they're wacky ideas too. Like

00:16:38   what about the day after the Super Bowl or the day of the Super Bowl and they put a Super Bowl

00:16:43   commercial on saying all these shows are available now, go get it on only on Apple TV, like they,

00:16:48   or the Oscars or something like that. They could do something like that as a way to launch it.

00:16:52   But they could also probably, since it's Apple, they'll probably do an event and then say it will

00:16:58   be available on this date and maybe that date will be the day of the Oscars or the day of the Super

00:17:03   Bowl or whatever. And they'll do it that way. - They have the event to catch people that have

00:17:07   tuned in, but everybody else, they'll just wrap it all up with a big TV spot, right? And then that's

00:17:12   the day it's available. - I would think something like that, but it could be, I mean, when the

00:17:16   information says first half of 2019, probably one of the things that's happening there is that they

00:17:22   don't know yet, right? Like I think it's, they don't know yet. Otherwise we'd probably have a

00:17:27   better idea, but I would imagine it will be a kind of a spring thing, but we'll see. - They also

00:17:32   reiterated, the information also reiterated the rumor that as well as Apple's own programming,

00:17:36   you'll be able to sign up for other paid TV channels, which really does, you know, it

00:17:42   solidifies the fact that really Apple are more of a prime video competitor than a Netflix competitor

00:17:47   from a business model perspective. - Yeah, I think that's right. I saw somebody, and I can't, I wish

00:17:52   I could remember who it was last week on Twitter said something very, very smart, which is, there's

00:17:58   no such thing as a Netflix competitor. Everybody else is trying to be another service in addition

00:18:04   to Netflix. And I think that's the right way to look at it is Netflix at this point is dominant.

00:18:12   And I don't see a lot of people dropping Netflix to pick up one of these other streaming services.

00:18:18   It's more like who else is in that packet of, Tim Goodman said this to me on TV Talk Machine last

00:18:24   week, like you're competing to be in the four streaming services that people subscribe to.

00:18:29   That's basically it. Netflix is one. I mean, Tim probably said this too about Netflix, like

00:18:35   Netflix is one. And then, you know, if you've got Amazon prime, you've already had two and it's like,

00:18:39   what are the other two? Is it Apple? Is it Disney? Is it like, but that's, that's where the competition

00:18:43   is going on. It's a little bit like the, you know, input one on the TV set where it's like, well,

00:18:48   if you've got cable input one is your cable box and nobody's actually replacing that. Now they are

00:18:53   with cable cutting, but it's that idea. Like there's Netflix and then there's everybody else.

00:18:58   I guess it kind of reminds me like of the iTunes music store. Like there was only really

00:19:03   one music store ultimately, which was the iTunes music store. And the reason that I kind of relate

00:19:08   those two things together as it being like Netflix is no one, there is, there is no way that some

00:19:14   company could be like Netflix again, like to get the deals that Netflix got to give it a base,

00:19:19   because no one will give that content away anymore. Right. All of it. Yeah. All of that

00:19:23   content that it's losing, which is all the old content from stuff that that'll all probably

00:19:27   drain away. But it doesn't matter now. Yeah. No one can be in that place. Well, like how, so,

00:19:33   you know, Warner shut down, what's its name? Filmstruck. Right. And they've shut down some

00:19:39   other things. And we talked about this on a download last week. The, because we had on

00:19:45   Natalie Jarvey who covers tech media for the Hollywood reporter and, you know, they undoubtedly

00:19:51   Warner, which is now owned by AT&T, they undoubtedly have a streaming service coming,

00:19:57   of course. Right. But they will get their Warner Brothers catalog of content. So I think like

00:20:04   Friends, which has been very successful and has a whole new generation of people has watched that

00:20:07   TV show on Netflix. Right. But that stuff's probably going to go to whatever the new Warner

00:20:12   streaming services. And that's, that's everybody right now is, is trying to pull their content

00:20:15   back, but it's too late. Netflix is already enormous and has already benefited and has

00:20:19   already built out a huge library of original content now. So they made it, they, you know,

00:20:24   they, they have made it to that point. People don't care what's on Netflix anymore. They just

00:20:29   know there's good stuff on Netflix. They don't care where it comes from. It doesn't matter.

00:20:32   And that's what you want is to, is to just have it be like, how could I drop Netflix? There's always

00:20:37   something on Netflix. But for Apple, it is, and Apple's going to do what Amazon's done that's very

00:20:42   smart, which is basically wrap all the other streaming services around you and say, we are not

00:20:48   just our own content. We also are the path to get all of these little services added in. It's a

00:20:56   little cable company like when you think about it, like, well, just go, you just get one bill,

00:21:00   right? It's just one that has all of these things inside it. Good user interface. If you're lucky,

00:21:08   right. Like that's, I mean, that's been my experience with the prime channel stuff is that

00:21:12   there is something to be said for subscribing to CBS All Access and BritBox and having them inside

00:21:20   the disclaimer past sponsor prime video channels, but having it inside the prime app, like if you

00:21:28   like the app experience of the rapper, whether it's prime or the TV app for Apple, if you, if you

00:21:35   prefer that experience, the nice thing about it is it's a unified experience instead of having, you

00:21:39   know, oh, now I want to watch Star Trek. I got to go to the CBS app and I don't like the CBS app, but

00:21:44   that's where Star Trek is. And you're like, I don't even need to open the CBS app. Just stay in my

00:21:48   TV app or my prime video app and do it from there. That could be potentially smart. And from Apple's

00:21:55   perspective also, it gets people in their app where they control the promotions and they can

00:22:00   promote the Apple TV content as well. So I think that Apple have decided

00:22:09   what their flagship show will be because Steve Correll has signed on to join Reese Witherspoon's

00:22:17   TV show drama series. This show, as well as Reese Witherspoon and Steve Correll, also stars Jennifer

00:22:24   Aniston. This is a big one. I think like Star Power, like this is going to be one they put on

00:22:29   posters, right? Like this is pretty huge for them. They have a lot of great stars. A lot of, we've

00:22:35   been talking about it, right? Like even people like Oprah, like doing individual projects, but

00:22:39   you're going to have one show with three A-list movie stars, at least. I think this is

00:22:48   going to be one of their big, big, we put it, I don't know how good it's going to be. I mean, honestly, I

00:22:52   think it will probably be fantastic because of that cost, but that's going to be one that looks really

00:22:57   good on a poster. Right? Right? That's the, and here's the other thing. Can we just stop for a

00:23:05   moment and imagine what an Apple event to launch this thing might be? First off, it might be

00:23:10   a very different event. We might, none of us might get invited, right? It might be that Tim Goodman

00:23:15   and Natalie Jarvey get invited to this. Well, it is for us, but maybe Apple don't know that, but you know,

00:23:21   like this isn't a normal event for them. It's like how when they announce things like

00:23:27   the Apple watch, they bring in a lot of fashion press. Like it's slightly different, but this would

00:23:32   probably weight much more heavily on television media with maybe some big tech culture sites, you

00:23:40   know? But can you imagine the people they're going to bring on stage for these things? It's going to

00:23:45   be like a Marvel thing. Yeah. Here's Oprah, here's Jennifer Aniston, here's Steve Carell. It's probably

00:23:52   not going to be a good presentation, but it will be really interesting at least. And Joe is in the

00:23:58   chat room saying, and Joe and Zach are both in the chat room saying it's definitely going to be in

00:24:02   LA, which it 100% will be. I'm actually looking, the one thing that I wonder about, although we

00:24:07   would probably hear soon, but the TCA, the Television Critics Association, has not announced

00:24:14   their winter press tour dates yet, I think, but they're usually in January. And that's another

00:24:18   question I've got, like, would Apple do that? Would Apple do a day at the TCA and actually use a venue

00:24:24   like that to roll out some of their planning? Probably not. They could talk about the shows,

00:24:28   because the shows aren't a secret. Aren't a secret, right. So wouldn't that be interesting if TCA

00:24:33   puts up their schedule for the winter death march with cocktails and says, "Apple is doing Tuesday."

00:24:43   I'm like, "What?" Yeah, and they're going to show us some trailers. And they're going to bring in

00:24:46   Oprah and they're going to bring in Jennifer Aniston and they're going to do all that. And

00:24:48   then maybe they also, you know, maybe they time that with, again, the question is what Apple

00:24:52   chooses. They've got a lot of choices, but they could time that with an event in LA the same week.

00:24:58   And so they make sure that Oprah and Jennifer Aniston and Reese Witherspoon and Steve Carell,

00:25:03   all those people are in LA that week. And they do an Apple media event on a Tuesday and maybe

00:25:09   the Thursday they're at TCA, the Wednesday they're at TCA. But whether it's TCA or it's something

00:25:13   else, like the choices that they're making are different because it's a TV service rollout. And

00:25:20   I would argue that actually they probably will include a lot of press that covers Apple normally

00:25:24   because why would you not want all the tech press and all the entertainment press to cover you?

00:25:30   That's twice the press coverage. Whoo! So, but we'll see. It's a different product, though. So

00:25:36   the rules are going to be different. This is not going to be like come to the Steve Jobs Theater

00:25:40   and we're going to put out a new iMac and also Jennifer Aniston will be here. That's probably

00:25:45   not going to be how it works. Yeah. The more we've spoken about this today, the more I think that

00:25:50   they might just do this on its own, right? Like just a straight up on its own event with a very

00:25:56   different press makeup in a very different location. You know, like maybe even Tim isn't

00:26:03   there, right? Like maybe this is a Schiller and Q deal or maybe this is Schiller and the two Sony

00:26:08   execs or now Apple execs. You know what I mean? Like it might be completely different. Well,

00:26:12   if it's something like TCA, you know, they'll have, it will just be maybe Eddie Q, but probably

00:26:18   it'll just be the two guys who run the studio who will come up and answer questions. If they're

00:26:23   going to go in a TV world, it's probably best to have the people that really know the TV world,

00:26:28   right? Yeah. To answer this question. Anyway, this stuff's heating up. Can't wait. And you know,

00:26:33   all upgrade listeners, you're well prepared for when this stuff launches. That is the service we

00:26:37   provide to you on Upstream. Today's show is brought to you in part by Hallo. Hallo is amazing. Hallo

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00:27:38   never want to change. This weekend I stayed at my one of my family members homes. They had regular

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00:28:50   don't, just send it back. Go to hollow pillow.com/upgrade right now. Our thanks to hollow for

00:28:56   their support of this show and relay FM. It is time Jason Snell to talk about the iPad

00:29:04   Pro. Now, if I am correct, we both have both, right? Yes. So I think and we were talking about

00:29:12   this a couple of days ago. I think for the sake of ease now, because the 10.5 inch is now the 11

00:29:20   inch, we stopped calling the 12.9 the 12.9 and we just call it the 13. Apple legally can't do that,

00:29:28   right? Because it's claiming something that doesn't exist. I feel like the rest of us could if we

00:29:33   really wanted to. I don't know whether it'll stick. It's certainly way easier to say the 11

00:29:37   and the 13 than it is the 11 and the 12.9. But either way, it basically is essentially 11 inch

00:29:43   laptop and a 13 inch laptop. It's like the MacBook Air, except now these are iPads. Because it's not

00:29:49   10.5 and 12.9 anymore, right? So we'll give it a go. I'm sure we're going to slip up, but we may

00:29:56   reference to it as the 13 in this episode and you know which one we're talking about now. Yep. So

00:30:01   you are getting ready to publish your review on Six Colors, but you sent me a draft of the review.

00:30:08   Yeah, of what I've written so far anyway. Yes. Your opening that you sent me is very strong.

00:30:14   Good, good feedback. Which is, "This is a computer." And I love that. Yeah, the night of

00:30:23   the event when I was flying back to San Francisco, I wrote a thing that my first impressions in the

00:30:28   headline was, "This is a computer." That is the theme of Apple's event. That is what Apple's

00:30:33   trying to say here. Apple's basically saying, "Look, it's USB-C. It's priced like a computer.

00:30:40   It's got more power than all of these laptops." It is Apple saying, "We want you to take this

00:30:46   thing seriously as a device." And that is the way it needs to be judged. Now, the challenge,

00:30:55   and you and I have seen this over the last week, especially with the iPad Pro reviews coming out

00:31:00   last Monday, is that there are two ways to look at this. One way is to judge it as a PC.

00:31:08   And the other way is to judge it for what it is and how it works. And that, I don't actually

00:31:18   think those are very different. And I think there are some reviews that really walked the line quite

00:31:24   well, including Nielle Patel's "At the Verge," where, as I say in the article, the iPad's not

00:31:32   a computer as it's been defined for the last 40 years, but it is different. And that means that

00:31:39   it does some things better than PCs, and it does some things worse than PCs. It's not a PC,

00:31:46   and I don't think we should judge it as a PC. Well, can it do these 10 things that my laptop

00:31:50   running Windows 10 can do? I think that's the wrong approach, because iPad Pro is a different

00:31:57   thing. It's a different kind of thing. But I also don't think that means you can't criticize it,

00:32:04   because in the end, it still has to measure up. It still has to be worth the money, and it still

00:32:10   has to be able to do things, even if they're not the same. So that's the distinction I'm trying

00:32:15   to make here, is like, how do you judge a product like this? And there is a group of people who

00:32:20   want to judge it, saying, well, if you're going to call it a computer, if you're going to say that

00:32:24   it's $1,000 and all of that, then every single thing that I can't do on my PC that I can do on

00:32:31   my PC that I can't do on the iPad is a strike against it. And I don't think that's quite the

00:32:36   right way to approach it, because, as our friend Federico will point out time and again, there are

00:32:41   lots of things that the iPad's way better than a traditional computer for. And so, you know,

00:32:46   trying to find that spot where you're not judging it based on old ways of thinking, old workflows.

00:32:53   One of the things that frustrated me last week was when Nile said on Twitter that his team of

00:33:01   video people at The Verge simply couldn't do a video on the iPad, as an example of what the iPad

00:33:06   fails at. And it's like, I'm sorry, that's totally wrong. Like, they could do a video, you can do

00:33:12   videos on the iPad. What he meant to say, or what they meant to say was, they weren't comfortable

00:33:18   making a video on the iPad because they have built an entire computer-based workflow, PC or Mac-based

00:33:25   workflow. That's how they make videos. They've made decisions based on the tools that they've

00:33:29   got on the computer, and those tools aren't available on the iPad. And therefore, for them

00:33:34   to make a video, it wouldn't meet their quality standards, or it would take a huge amount of

00:33:39   overhead to rethink their workflows, and that they weren't going to do that. I think that is

00:33:43   the challenge when we're thinking about the iPad, is theirs, can it do it? You know, okay,

00:33:49   but what are you asking it to do? Are you asking it to match what you do on a computer, or are you

00:33:55   using it for what it is good at, and what it can do? And within that, again, within that,

00:34:03   because that's the funny thing here is, people on both sides of this argument are pointing out

00:34:06   a lot of the same things that are lacking in iOS, but from one perspective, it's proof that this is

00:34:14   a toy, and from the other perspective, it's frustration that this productive tool doesn't go

00:34:20   far enough. So it's all a matter of perspective. Yeah, and it's, you know, we might spend some time

00:34:28   today talking about some places that we want to see the iPad Pro go to, but I think that, I think,

00:34:34   where is it? There is a strange, and I think sometimes fundamental issue with

00:34:39   framing every single review around the fact that this machine has to be better or replace a PC.

00:34:50   That isn't necessarily the way that this machine needs to be judged, because we don't,

00:34:56   you know, we don't, this isn't how we approach all products, you know? And I find that there can be

00:35:04   benefits in reviewing these things by people that use them every single day, like me and you,

00:35:10   instead of just kind of like someone who's begrudgingly using it in the first place.

00:35:16   Well, right, that's the advantage of having somebody like Federico write a review of it,

00:35:22   or having me write a review of it. But I think there, you know, if you're somebody who uses a

00:35:27   laptop and is intrigued by the iPad, having a review from somebody who uses a laptop and is

00:35:34   wondering if they can use an iPad is useful, because if that laptop user says, "Mm-mm, no,

00:35:40   you can't, you just can't," then, you know, again, from my perspective, I get frustrated,

00:35:46   because I say, "Well, no, a lot of those things you can, it's just different." But I think there

00:35:52   are, you know, it is a valid point of view to be one of those people who's on the other side of the

00:35:57   fence and who's, you know, literally like, "I don't know, could I use this? Could I, instead of buying

00:36:02   a new Mac laptop or PC laptop, could I just buy an iPad Pro and do everything?" And even the most

00:36:08   dyed-in-the-wool iPad Pro user would not approach that hypothetical and say, "Oh, yes, absolutely,"

00:36:16   right? You have to ask a lot of questions about what their job is and what tools they use,

00:36:21   because sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes it is no. And I think our frustration when we see

00:36:27   reviews of the iPad sometimes is because it's all framed around the fact that the iPad Pro is a

00:36:34   failure because sometimes the answer is no. And that's not right. Like, sometimes the answer is no,

00:36:41   sometimes it's not the right tool for the job. That doesn't mean that it's not a tool. It just

00:36:48   means that it's not the right tool for some kind of jobs. But the internet lacks a lot of nuance,

00:36:54   and people sometimes lack nuance, and the fact that it's not the right tool for some kind of jobs

00:36:59   translates into it's a toy. Yeah. Like, you know, there are a bunch of reviews that I really

00:37:05   enjoyed. I really enjoyed Nilay's review. I really enjoyed John Gruber's review. I think that they

00:37:11   had a lot of balance to them. But the problem is, you know, as is all these things, people see what

00:37:15   they want to see, and people will pick out things and be like, "Oh, well, look at this quote. It

00:37:20   means it's a failure." That's why it's great that there are so many reviews and videos and all these

00:37:24   things is because then I feel like you can get a really interesting, holistic view of the product

00:37:31   by seeing these different perspectives. And here is another one. Let's talk about hardware design.

00:37:35   These things are so thin, I cannot conceive the thinness of them. Like, I know how thin they are.

00:37:46   I know that they are thinner than any iPhone ever made, but my brain cannot believe that fact.

00:37:51   It's, um, well, I mean, the shape is so totally different. That's part of it. I think the thing

00:37:56   that struck me about it is that Apple has decided, so with the iPad 2, they started rounding the

00:38:03   edges. And really that was because they wanted to make them feel less chunky. I mean, so many Apple

00:38:10   products have rounded around the edges. My iMac Pro is rounded at the edges and bulges in the back.

00:38:17   And the idea there is to make it seem thinner than it is, right? And with this design, they just

00:38:25   stopped. They're like, "Nah, we don't need to do that anymore. We can go back to like the original

00:38:30   iPad. We can go back to those flat sides because it's so thin that..." And they get benefits from

00:38:37   the flat sides for things like having the magnets and charger for the Apple Pencil.

00:38:42   Well, and also if you made these tapered sides, you wouldn't even be able to fit the USB port on

00:38:47   there anymore. Like you wouldn't be able to do that. Like you're at the point now probably where

00:38:51   tapering those sides or making it any thinner is going to start to cause

00:38:55   issues as opposed to really making anything nice. And those flat edges, that is a, that is a stunning

00:39:02   design. That is just a beautiful design. I, you know, considering that you've got the thin bezels

00:39:11   as well, you know, they're both nine millimeters, which is interesting, right? Like I find it

00:39:15   interesting that the bezels are the same size on both the 11 and the 13. I continue to look at

00:39:24   these iPads and get this real sense of a futuristic feeling design. It's reminiscent of the iPhone 10

00:39:33   in that way for me that I'm looking at these products and they feel like they shouldn't be now.

00:39:41   Like it is a huge jump, right? You know, I still feel that way sometimes when I look at my iPhone 10.

00:39:47   It's like you really are something that is still feels new and these iPads definitely have that

00:39:54   feeling again for me. It's like, wow, you feel like a futuristic device. Yeah. And what it is,

00:40:00   it is literally, I mean, it is literally the first time that Apple has dramatically changed the

00:40:05   design language on the iPad since the iPad two, which was 2011, the second iPad ever made. Since

00:40:13   then it's gotten thinner, but it's basically been the same and they've, you know, they've made some

00:40:18   changes here and there, but like this is completely different. It is a completely different look.

00:40:21   The way I describe it in the review is that it's a little like looking at a laptop, except there's

00:40:28   only the one piece. It super looks like a laptop now. Like it really does. It's kind of weird.

00:40:33   Yeah. I think personally that this design is, it's one of my favorite designs that Apple has

00:40:41   ever put out. Um, because it is, it really does feel like, and I feel like this is overused now,

00:40:48   but it, it really does feel like if you had infinite technology available to you,

00:40:56   this is the product you would make from the beginning. Right? Like, because it is,

00:41:02   it's so close to perfection, right? Because if you push these things further, if you even make

00:41:10   the bezels thinner or the device thinner, in theory, you could be harming its usability.

00:41:18   It really feels right now, and again, it's going to change and we'll see how it changes,

00:41:23   but as it stands right now, this device feels about as perfect to what an iPad should be

00:41:29   as any iPad has ever been. And one of the reasons that I think I rank it so highly,

00:41:36   I actually personally rank this above the iPhone 10 in terms of my personal feelings on design,

00:41:42   is the iPad Pro has no compromises in its design. Like the notch is a compromise, right? That is a

00:41:51   compromise in the design. I like the way it looks, but ideally Apple doesn't want that notch to be

00:41:56   there. But on the iPad, they don't need it. You know, like the only thing that I think could be

00:42:01   considered a compromise on design with the iPad Pro is the camera bump. But in usability affects

00:42:08   absolutely nothing. You can lay the iPads flat with no case on a table. They do not move. They

00:42:15   do not wobble. I don't know how that's possible, but they don't. Like, I really feel that this is

00:42:21   one of, from just a pure design perspective, one of the least compromising designs Apple has ever

00:42:27   made. It is just exactly as it should be. Yeah, yeah. I like it. It's fun. I mean, it is new,

00:42:38   too. So we've got the new product thing there. But part of this, too, is that it's so nice to see

00:42:46   Apple give design love to the product that you and I use so much.

00:42:53   Yeah, yeah.

00:42:54   There was something. So in our chat room right now, Zach Knox pointed out that, you know, in his

00:42:58   mind, the last big iPad change was with the Air and the Mini, which, I mean, we could argue about

00:43:06   it, but it still was a curved edge. The curve got a little steeper. They also got a lot thinner,

00:43:12   which is one reason they had to do that. But still, it felt like, you know, again, this is

00:43:18   the one where they threw out the design playbook. They didn't tweak it. They threw it out. And

00:43:24   so we can argue about how far back this goes. But it goes far back either way. Even if it goes to

00:43:29   the Mini and the Air, it goes far back. And in an era where we've also been complaining about how

00:43:36   Apple has not spent enough time thinking about iOS on the iPad, which we can get to later, but

00:43:42   it really shows now, like the fact that they didn't really start revving up the engine in terms of

00:43:49   iPad features until iOS 9, when they should have been putting their foot on the gas from the very

00:43:56   beginning. I feel like it's really starting to hurt them now. So at a time when they were kind

00:44:03   of like not doing it on the software side, they also weren't doing it on the hardware side. The

00:44:09   internals kept getting better. But like this is the time where it's like Apple has spent a lot of

00:44:13   design effort to make a completely different looking iPad now with the new iPad Pro. It feels

00:44:18   good, right? It feels, as somebody who uses this product line, it does feel nice to have it get

00:44:24   some love from Apple's designers. You know, I maintain, I said this, you know, you can

00:44:29   roll back the tapes. I said this after WWDC. We have no iPad features. And I still feel this way.

00:44:35   I would forgive it if the hardware was incredible, right? That like, I will let them go every two

00:44:42   years and be happy with it if that's how we're going to go for software. But in those off years,

00:44:47   I want good hardware. And like they really gave that to me. You know, like this for me is like,

00:44:53   I know iOS isn't changing, but I now have a renewed love for these devices again, because

00:44:59   the hardware is so incredible. And just because of some of the changes in the hardware, it's brought

00:45:04   some new stuff to me, which is making my overall experience better. Yes. You know, the iPad is the

00:45:09   screen, right? Like that's what it is ultimately. And this screen is just continues to be incredible.

00:45:15   So, you know, this True Tone wide color, and it has ProMotion. And I know ProMotion is something

00:45:20   that's kind of new for you now. Yeah, well, so that's one of the funny things about this is that

00:45:24   although I have a review unit of the second gen 12.9 in a drawer for photography for, you know,

00:45:33   all these things, but the one I bought and the one I use is the one I bought is a first generation.

00:45:38   And first generation does not have ProMotion. And it does not have the wide color gamut and it

00:45:45   doesn't have True Tone. And so I don't use those day to day on the iPad. So it's just a reminder

00:45:52   for people who are not upgrading. If they're thinking about upgrading to this and they're

00:45:55   not upgrading from the previous iPad Pro, you have missed out on a lot of these features that

00:46:01   are pretty amazing. So it's just a reminder to me of how good they are and how good that display is.

00:46:08   Again, not really new features, just the high frame rate, the smooth scrolling, it's pretty

00:46:14   great. And yes, it is important that that display be great because it is all you see. There's a

00:46:21   bezel, of course, the bezel is a little bit thinner than it used to be on two sides and

00:46:27   way thinner than it used to be on the other two sides. But the screen is at the center. Now,

00:46:32   I'm not going to say it's like touching light, because I don't know what that means. But it is

00:46:36   a big deal and a great experience when you're using it. I think they said that because they've

00:46:43   too many times said it's like just holding the web page in your hands or whatever. They needed

00:46:48   another way to describe it because they've used that thing a million times. The Rounded Edges,

00:46:53   Liquid Retina, which is apparently from the Eliza review, that's all that means, by the way.

00:46:58   Liquid Retina just means the edges are round and it's an LCD, has introduced some letterboxing

00:47:04   issues, which is kind of interesting. So if an app has not been built to the 12.1 SDK,

00:47:10   taking advantage of the full screen sizes, it has some slight letterboxing on the top and bottom.

00:47:16   So basically the home indicator like you have on the iPhone just is in a black bar and the status

00:47:22   bar is in a black bar and the content sits in between it. This is weirdly, I mean, there is a

00:47:27   reason for it, but it is weirdly much more noticeable on the 11 than the 13 because...

00:47:32   The 11 changed its aspect ratio. So it is in addition to you, you're getting a letterbox

00:47:37   and you're probably also getting a, you're either getting a larger letterbox depending

00:47:40   on the orientation or you're getting a pillar box. So it's, yeah, the lack of, if you've got

00:47:45   a non-updated piece of software, it's much more noticeable on the 11 than it is on the 13 for sure.

00:47:50   It really is. Yeah. I've held them side by side. I'm like the same apps open and it's like, yeah,

00:47:54   okay. Like this looks very different. It looks very different.

00:47:56   And in multitasking, if one, it's lowest common denominator. So if multitasking,

00:48:01   you're using an app that hasn't been updated with an app that has, it goes back to the letterboxing

00:48:06   because that's how it has to do it. I was actually writing my article, my review in a text editor that

00:48:12   was updated while I was writing the section about the displays and I ran the update and then suddenly

00:48:18   it was updated to support the new display sizes. I was like, oh, that's better. As I was writing

00:48:23   that section, which is pretty funny. And it's kind of like the iPhone 10, right? Like going

00:48:26   all the way to the edges doesn't necessarily add a lot of functionality, but it does look really good.

00:48:31   Well, that's the thing about the letterboxing on the 12.9. It's like,

00:48:35   I saw people mentioning it in our Slack and I was like, it's not that big a deal. And the thing is,

00:48:42   it's not that big a deal because the black bezel and the black letterboxing, you kind of don't

00:48:47   notice it. In certain apps, you really do notice it. But yeah, the truth is that for the top and

00:48:53   bottom, especially, and when you've got the safe areas in the corners, because you've got those

00:48:56   curves, you know, a lot of times it's just content that's flowing under the status bar or flowing

00:49:04   under the home indicator at the bottom. And it's not super important content. It just, it looks

00:49:10   better that way. My text editor, one writer, actually had a bug where it was hiding the part

00:49:18   of the toolbar at the top of the screen was going off the top. And so there was like a game of like,

00:49:23   how can I get it back so that I can touch it? And then the update happened and it's like,

00:49:28   oh, now it works fine. It's great. So, you know, there may be quirks too.

00:49:32   How incredible is face ID on this device? So I, I, I tried to put it into words, how,

00:49:40   how important it is. And I think, I think the best example is when you're using a keyboard with it,

00:49:49   where, you know, when you're using a keyboard with it, you literally just keep using the keyboard.

00:49:56   You don't, you know, you call up one password and it opens. You go to the, you step to your

00:50:03   iPad wherever it is, and you touch the space bar and it opens, right. It doesn't, you don't have

00:50:08   to reach up because it's one of those things where you got to reach up and rest your finger on it and

00:50:13   get the face ID or get the touch ID and all that. And now that's just gone. Your face is already in,

00:50:18   it's right there and it unlocks the device and yeah. So it's huge. It's great. And the fact is

00:50:25   it's so forgiving. Yes. If you are covering the camera, it will tell you. But what I found is like,

00:50:31   unlike my iPad, my iPhone, which I feel like is not forgiving, obviously it's got to be upright

00:50:36   and all that. This thing is so forgiving in terms of, I don't even think about where the camera is

00:50:42   and I just flip it up and it works or it gives me a little arrow and I just move my hand and

00:50:47   it just immediately unlocks. It's, it's so it's fast, it's forgiving. And in a lot of scenarios

00:50:53   when you're using it, it basically, it's like you don't even need to know that it's there. It just

00:50:58   sort of happens and you keep going on working. Like I've been trying to trick it, but like,

00:51:04   I can't do it. It's so interesting to me. You know, like I feel like it unlocks way better.

00:51:09   Like I found it unlocks when two people are looking at it, it gets it. And I feel like,

00:51:13   well, that should confuse it, but it doesn't. It feels like it has a wider field of view and

00:51:18   can detect from further distances than my iPhone can. You know, like I can have my iPad flat down

00:51:23   on the desk in front of me and it will unlock and the iPhone is way spotier than that. Not only does

00:51:28   it work in all orientations, it will unlock in diagonal orientations. Like I've been testing,

00:51:34   I spin the iPad around. Like it is incredible. Like I don't know what they've done, but I genuinely

00:51:42   believe that there is some slightly different hardware in here as well that they're just not

00:51:48   mentioning right now. And I was on the talk show this week with Merlyn, Man and John Gruber,

00:51:54   you know, they were kind of referencing the fact that there might be something there,

00:51:57   but Apple don't want to talk about it because it might make the iPhone seem worse.

00:52:01   - So I asked them about it in my briefing and the response I got was essentially

00:52:09   that it's the same hardware and that the machine learning has been retrained

00:52:17   for all these different things. So some of it is the machine learning input is just

00:52:20   has to be dramatically different than previous.

00:52:25   - Like why couldn't you just do that on the iPhone then?

00:52:26   - But here's the other part of it though. It's the same hardware.

00:52:29   What they didn't say, and it makes me wonder is, is it the same hardware in the same position?

00:52:38   Or did they do something where the infrared and the flood illuminator and the dot projector,

00:52:45   if it's the same projector, but it's projecting over a wider field or something like that,

00:52:52   right? Where they're actually, it's the same hardware, but it has been modified

00:52:58   or its placement has changed in order to get a wider angle. I don't know.

00:53:02   - Probably study the iFixit teardown, right?

00:53:04   - Yeah, it would be interesting to see exactly where all those sensors are and where they're

00:53:09   pointed and how that might vary. Maybe it's the same, but yeah, it is kind of hard to believe how

00:53:16   much more forgiving it is than it is on the iPhone.

00:53:19   - And it really makes the whole thing so much nicer. I love how helpful the UI is, right?

00:53:26   Like you're too far away, you're covering it up. Yeah, thank you for all of that, right?

00:53:31   I enjoy all of those prompts. I think it's great. So Face ID, I mean, ultimately, big thumbs up.

00:53:37   Like I like it on the iPad even more than on my iPhone. I sit down to my iPad, it's at the desk

00:53:44   with the keyboard out and I hit the space bar two times and I'm in. It wakes up the screen and opens

00:53:49   up. Oh, by the way, talking about that, I'm so happy to have tapped awake.

00:53:52   - Oh yeah, that's a big improvement.

00:53:55   - It's one of those things I forget about because I was doing it anyway,

00:53:59   but it wasn't working, right? But I'm so happy. I'm so happy to have it here.

00:54:04   The only one downside for me from Face ID, i.e. no home button, is unlocking or like quitting

00:54:14   an app when I'm using the Apple Pencil. Like I used to use my Apple Pencil and hit the home button,

00:54:19   and it would go home. There's no way with the Apple Pencil to make the iPad go home.

00:54:24   - Interesting.

00:54:26   - This has always been the way that the Apple Pencil can't

00:54:29   interact with any of the system elements. So it could never change multitasking. It can't bring

00:54:37   down control center. It can't bring down notification center. So it also doesn't work with the home

00:54:42   indicator. So this is not a big thing, but it's just something that I keep like putting my Apple

00:54:48   Pencil to a place that doesn't exist, right? It's like off the edge of the iPad to try and hit the

00:54:53   home button. So that's the one downside that I have with no home button anymore. Everything else

00:54:59   is upside. Oh, and also there's a second, the screenshot thing is a nightmare. I hate that.

00:55:05   Like that you have to hit the wake, like the side button and the volume button.

00:55:09   - They're the two buttons closest to the corner. So I've gotten used to this sort of like,

00:55:13   just kind of pinch the corner thing, but yeah, that takes some getting used to for sure.

00:55:17   - I've also found it to be less reliable. Like it's failing on me. Like it keeps changing the

00:55:21   volume. I assume this is just something that needs to be tweaked, but that's been a bit wonky for me.

00:55:26   Should we talk about the performance? I mean, I don't really know what to say. Like these are

00:55:30   incredibly fast and incredibly responsive as you would expect, but there is an abundance of head

00:55:36   room in these devices. Like it's just, this is why so many people are talking about the missing

00:55:45   parts of iOS because these devices are so powerful. Like I get how you get from there to there,

00:55:50   but all it does is, and I've seen other people say this, I completely agree. It reminds me

00:55:55   of the iPad Air 2 and iOS 9. Like the iPad Air 2 debuted and was way too powerful for what iOS on

00:56:02   the iPad could do with iOS 8. And it was because in June iOS 9 came with split screen.

00:56:08   - Yeah. And also I think it's like, you need more apps that can take advantage of this. And they

00:56:12   know that they've got Photoshop coming down the road and there are others. I spent a lot of time

00:56:16   doing some testing with, with Ferrite recording studio, the editing app that I use for podcasts

00:56:24   when I'm on my iPad. And there, I sent the developer some feedback because there were

00:56:29   a couple of places where I'm like, I'm not seeing any benefit here. And I think I've found places,

00:56:34   I did some performance analysis apparently for him where there's some places that he might want

00:56:39   to actually, he can gain some benefit by speeding up the app. But there were also some areas where

00:56:45   it was just very clearly for something like that, much faster. And it's one of those things where,

00:56:51   you know, does it matter that the export takes half as long? It's like, well, yeah,

00:56:56   if you're waiting for the export to happen, it does matter. And I think the challenge is that

00:57:00   there are a lot of apps that just don't stress out the system. And so we need more of those

00:57:06   and there needs to be more functionality that uses the power because the power is there.

00:57:10   And that's a recurring theme actually, in a lot of reviews, it comes out, as we said earlier,

00:57:16   it comes out in a lot of different ways and sometimes it comes out angry and sometimes

00:57:19   it comes out dismissive. But for me, the big question is not, is this a computer or is this

00:57:26   a PC or can it replace your PC? For me, I think the question we need to keep asking is,

00:57:33   can a software live up to the hardware? And right now the answer is no. I think when we can get it,

00:57:40   we can get into it a little bit, but like the hard, like you said about the iPad Air 2 and iOS

00:57:44   8 and then 9, the hardware is, I said last week, the hardware is willing, but the software is weak.

00:57:52   I mean, it's kind of like that. It's like, what can this hardware do? It can do anything you throw

00:57:56   at it. Are there more things we could throw at it? Like let's find some more things to throw at it,

00:58:02   because right now it will handle almost anything you throw at it. You can edit video with a 4K

00:58:10   external display and all that. Yeah, you can totally do that, but there are not as many

00:58:15   of those use cases as you want, because quite honestly, if you're not stressing out the hardware,

00:58:21   there are a lot of arguments that you should just be buying the $350 iPad at that point. The point

00:58:26   of having a $1,000 iPad with all this power is that you use it. And that's the big open question,

00:58:34   I think, about this product. And I'm in the camp of believing that there will be more places it

00:58:40   will be used. I mean, even just in Photoshop, right? Like I'm sure Photoshop really needs this.

00:58:45   But if you're gonna do more with the operating system, they had to release these devices now.

00:58:54   These iPads will be the iPads we have for the next 18 months to two years, because that's the kind

00:59:00   of cadence that the iPad is on right now, especially the iPad Pro. So you would want to

00:59:05   release the hardware before the software, not afterwards. Well, I mean, I would...

00:59:12   My theory is that that Germin report that they had iPad features in iOS 12 and they kicked them out

00:59:20   because they wanted stability. I believe that this thing was designed with some of those features in

00:59:27   mind. And we just didn't get them. And I think that may have actually been the case with iOS 8

00:59:33   and iOS 9 too, is in the end, I think in the end, Apple is willing to kick those features down the

00:59:40   road and just release an iPad that's incredibly capable and then let the next version catch up

00:59:45   with it. The nice thing about the iPad Air 2 being so capable is that when WWDC came around the next

00:59:51   June, they said, "You can test these features now on the iPad Air or iPad Air 2 or whatever. You can

00:59:57   test them now. We have them now, even though there is an iPad Pro coming, but we already have a

01:00:01   capable system that you can test these on." And whatever they do in iOS 13, these iPad Pros will

01:00:07   be able to handle it. But I think it's debatable whether these were designed purposefully to be

01:00:12   ready for whatever comes next or whether they were designed for whatever comes next and it got

01:00:16   delayed. So referencing another thing that kind of isn't there yet, USB-C. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

01:00:23   this is... We knew this would happen. You and I have been talking for months now about this

01:00:26   rumor about the iPads having USB-C. And I think saying that this is going to be a challenge for

01:00:33   Apple in terms of communication because USB-C is a plug and it only works with what the software has

01:00:41   been built to support. And Apple basically didn't improve the software support for devices.

01:00:49   It essentially, with the exception of like high resolution displays, and there's some complexity

01:00:54   there, right? Because it won't work with a... It'll drive 5K displays, but it won't drive 5K

01:00:59   Thunderbolt displays because it doesn't have Thunderbolt. You need to have a USB display.

01:01:03   And there are like three of them or something like that. There's not very many of them. No trip

01:01:07   to Dongle Town will save you on that one, I don't think. No, because you can't... Thunderbolt and

01:01:12   USB-C, you know, you can't make USB-C behave like Thunderbolt. That doesn't happen. So it's the

01:01:18   other way around. So the challenge is they haven't done anything for... If you could adapt it before,

01:01:25   you can do it now. And the difference is just that the port is different and you might not need

01:01:29   an adapter. But the sheer existence of it as a USB-C port doesn't make it support anything

01:01:35   more. That is, once again, it's back to the software. And... As far as I can tell, the only

01:01:40   different thing that it does is allows you to charge other USB-C devices, right? Or USB devices.

01:01:46   Well, it's so... So it can do more power than lightning. And so there are lots of USB devices

01:01:54   that are bus-powered that you previously could only use on an iPad with that adapter where you

01:01:59   also plugged in a lightning plug and plugged it into power. And then it would power those

01:02:04   devices that now will just run off of bus power. Lots of microphones and USB interfaces and even

01:02:10   some keyboards that wanted power and the iPad couldn't supply it over lightning and so they

01:02:16   didn't work. And now they work. And that's a function of USB-C. And yes, so that means you

01:02:20   can also charge external devices with it. That's a function of USB-C that is great. And the software

01:02:26   doesn't really need to support that at a high level, so great. But what it doesn't get you is

01:02:32   what a lot of people thought, which is, "Great, I can plug in my name of random USB-C device here

01:02:37   and it will totally work like it does on a computer." Not unless Apple has built that.

01:02:42   And so the one we keep talking about is file access, where Apple built file access on storage

01:02:48   devices early on in the days of the iPhone to import photos from cameras and SD cards.

01:02:54   And so it'll import, if you plug storage into any iOS device, it will open the Photos app

01:03:01   and try to bring in anything that it recognizes as a video or a picture. And that is all it is

01:03:07   capable of doing to this day, even though there's a file browser now and all of that, that's not,

01:03:11   it launches photos and it wants you to import photos and videos and that's literally everything.

01:03:16   And that, you know, by changing the port, Apple has opened itself up to that conversation again,

01:03:23   because now it seems much more like what you find on the side of a computer,

01:03:28   but it doesn't do the stuff that happens when you plug those devices into a computer. And, you know,

01:03:35   it's another one of those examples where it would really, I was talking to somebody the other

01:03:41   day, it might have been Dan Morin, and we were saying how it is kind of baffling why Apple,

01:03:48   I don't know, maybe they don't want to do it or maybe it's just too hard or maybe they couldn't

01:03:52   do it in time, but like, think of how much criticism Apple could have completely bypassed

01:03:58   about the iPad if they had put file storage into an iOS update. So like the amount of people that

01:04:04   are complaining about including me and you probably wouldn't even use it that much,

01:04:07   but it's just something that's such an oversight we can't believe it didn't get fixed, right?

01:04:12   And it reminds me of range anxiety with electric vehicles, which is like most of the time you don't

01:04:18   need that range, but you are really reluctant to buy an electric car because what if I do?

01:04:24   And that's the fact of like if you're traveling somewhere with just an iPad,

01:04:28   and you and I both experienced this, you are closing yourself off to a bunch of scenarios

01:04:36   where somebody hands you a USB thing and says, can you get the file off of this? And the answer is no,

01:04:40   I literally cannot do that. When I am recording something with a USB recorder and it saves

01:04:46   something audio files on an SD card, I can't, I had to buy a weird contraption to bridge that via

01:04:53   Wi-Fi and a custom app and it's like all this whole thing because I can't just bring my iPad

01:04:59   and my SD card recorder, even though it's got USB and I've got an SD card reader for my iPad,

01:05:04   I can't do it. So I think that's some of it is like, does it come up a lot? Well, no,

01:05:10   but it's hard to commit when you, by committing, you are closing yourself off from some very common,

01:05:19   I would say, especially in kind of business situations. And Apple would say high-speed

01:05:25   cloud service file transfers is the future and we're building this for the future. But the fact is,

01:05:33   there are so many scenarios where you are not and the person you're dealing with is not

01:05:37   on a high-speed network. That was more of an excuse when you were using lightning ports,

01:05:42   but now you have the exact port that's needed. So now it's harder to excuse. Yeah, and also I don't

01:05:48   buy it like, okay, this is advice that can edit 4K video. What cloud access? Like, you know,

01:05:53   at least it can import the video. But that's an example where it's like, well, why even bother?

01:05:57   Let's just use the cloud. Oh, because the files are huge and my audio files, they're also huge.

01:06:01   And if I'm on an airplane and somebody hands me a PowerPoint presentation on a USB drive,

01:06:05   what do I do? The answer is nothing because the iPad won't see it. And that's like, that's not

01:06:11   good enough. So again, they could have saved, this all could have been avoided if they had done that

01:06:18   software update. And I wonder if it's coming or if they're just going to be adamant about not doing

01:06:22   it. I will say this, because I don't want to assume malfeasance here. It will be a crying shame

01:06:32   if Apple doesn't want to support file access in iOS because of some sacred cow that was put there

01:06:42   years ago by somebody who may not even be with Apple anymore saying, oh no, no, we can't do that.

01:06:48   Like you've got a files app now, get over it, let us plug in devices and see what files are on them.

01:06:55   And if they had done that, and we've been complaining about this for years now,

01:06:59   but if they had done that before they had switched to USB-C or when they switched to USB-C,

01:07:04   this whole line of arguments would just vanish and they didn't do it. So maybe it'll happen later.

01:07:10   That would be good. But that's the part that gets me is not the, I want this feature, so therefore

01:07:15   I'm grumpy that they didn't provide it. It's like, do you guys understand how this one example opens

01:07:21   you up to this whole line of criticism that you could just avoid if you implemented that feature?

01:07:25   So maybe it's just really hard and they couldn't do it and they were concerned about the performance

01:07:30   issues in iOS 12 and so they had to kick it out. But it seems like maybe a mistake from an iPad

01:07:37   product rollout perspective. The iPad Pro is not just the iPad itself. It's also

01:07:45   the peripherals that Apple sells alongside it. We should talk about those, but before we do,

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01:09:08   and RelayFM. So let's start with the keyboard folio. And let's start with the keys. So how does

01:09:18   this feel to you, the keyboard? I mean, it's effectively the same as the previous one, but

01:09:23   what have you been feeling? Well, it is the same, which is reassuring because I actually,

01:09:29   I like that keyboard. It's funny though, one of the biggest pieces of criticism I've heard

01:09:34   about the keyboard was from Harry McCracken, who used to be the editor at PC World and he's now at

01:09:39   Fast Company. And he's been using an iPad as his primary computer for a long time. People don't

01:09:45   know. He's another one we should put on the list of the high profile iPad people because that is

01:09:50   his computer. And his biggest criticism of it is he wears them out. He uses them so much to write

01:09:57   all of his articles and stuff that he wears them out and has to get new keyboards. And I think

01:10:00   that's not great. Like apparently if you really use them, you can wear out that fabric keyboard.

01:10:04   But I like it and he was disappointed because it doesn't seem to be any different. I've totally

01:10:10   worn them down to making them shiny. I haven't broken any, but I've made those keys shiny.

01:10:16   He's gotten them beyond that point, but yeah, they're really good. I think they're good and

01:10:19   bad in these new ones. I think they addressed, it's not quite like the pencil where I feel like

01:10:25   they addressed every issue and you and I have talked about that a little bit. They addressed

01:10:28   every issue and it's like, yes, they got it exactly. Here, it's a more complicated product.

01:10:33   It has to do a bunch of different things. They have had to make some trade-offs, but I do feel

01:10:37   like they learned from the past version and have made some very good decisions along with some

01:10:43   decisions that are questionable. But overall, like overall for me, the number one thing they

01:10:49   needed to do is make this thing more lappable, to make it more steady when you're typing with the

01:10:56   iPad in your lap because it was shaky. It's not quite as shaky as something with a pure kickstand,

01:11:01   but like the old one had a fold. And so the back case came down and a lot of the weight of the iPad

01:11:07   was transferred into the back of the underneath part that's sitting on your lap. And then there's

01:11:14   a fold there. And as a result, you end up with this thing where the two surfaces are kind of

01:11:18   independently moving and that made it feel much less stable. And plus it was dealing, you know,

01:11:25   the force was getting transferred through this kind of folded over triangle in the back.

01:11:31   And they completely changed that where there's a single rigid surface that is the part that goes on

01:11:36   your lap and the way that the force is transferred is more direct. And as a result, it is totally

01:11:42   like I have spent all weekend writing my review using the keyboard folio and mostly not on a

01:11:51   table, but in my lap. And it has worked great. And that is that. So, so for all the other details we

01:11:58   can get into here, for me, that was number one on Apple's list and they got it. They nailed it.

01:12:04   So the keyboard, as you say, in the lap is much sturdier, but the iPad itself, like when you're

01:12:09   tapping on the iPad, when it's in that kind of keyboard, it's pretty bouncy. Um, as it, as it

01:12:15   kind of is resting on that triangle, cause the triangle is still kind of there as like, you know,

01:12:19   how it's putting the angle in. There's quite a bit of bounce to it. It's a little bouncy,

01:12:24   but it's easier to put into position. Uh, you know, like it is a more easily understandable

01:12:31   design than the origami of the previous version. I went, I went back to, so when I was writing

01:12:37   about this, I got the old one out and I was using it now and I do what I still do, which is like,

01:12:42   how does this go? What is the order? Where does it? And like, it's, you can figure it out,

01:12:47   but like this one, there's no question. Just, Oh, it goes like this. It's super fast, easy.

01:12:51   The new one doesn't. I still, you know, same wishes, you know, I wish it had media keys,

01:12:56   you know, I really wish they found even to put some skinny media keys in there, you know,

01:13:00   like a play pause and brightness and all that stuff. Other keyboards have it. I really wish

01:13:05   that they would have had it, but they don't. So yeah, maybe enough, maybe another time.

01:13:10   - Yeah. No function row, which again, I don't really need. Um, this, I feel like this is one

01:13:15   of those things where it's the faster horse argument. I don't need a function row. What

01:13:20   I need is keyboard access to a play, pause, volume, brightness. Those are the things that I need

01:13:28   keyboard access to. And if Apple's not going to provide those keys on this keyboard, fine,

01:13:32   provide back to the software again, provide assignable shortcuts in the system that are

01:13:37   system-wide that let me do keyboard shortcuts to replace those dedicated keys that they've decided

01:13:43   they can't fit on this keyboard, but they don't do that. And I don't need backlighting. Although

01:13:47   I know people really want backlighting. It would be very hard to do on a keyboard with this design.

01:13:51   I do get frustrated by the lack of a caps lock indicator because boy, I start typing in all caps

01:13:58   because I brushed against the caps lock all the time. - There are lots of magnets. These magnets

01:14:03   make it easy to attach. - All the magnets. - There are just lots of magnets. There are magnets

01:14:07   everywhere in this thing. - 100 plus magnets all over this thing, including many of them are on

01:14:12   the backside, which provides that kind of like grid of support, which I think is actually makes

01:14:18   it easier to go on and it holds it more securely. The way that I have approached it is basically

01:14:24   look where the camera bump is and look where the camera hole is. And you just kind of go,

01:14:30   boop, and it does it and it aligns it and it holds it solidly. And my experience with it is that I,

01:14:36   only once or twice have I been fiddling with the case and had it kind of pop off the magnets.

01:14:41   Mostly it does exactly what you want, which is you can remove it easily when you want,

01:14:48   but otherwise it stays stuck. And that's what I want. I think they did a pretty good job.

01:14:52   - But it's also not difficult to take off. Like it's not like super stuck on there,

01:14:57   but it's just the right amount you need. - When you want, it comes off, but it doesn't

01:15:00   come off accidentally. And that's a tricky little balance that they, well-designed, I have no doubt

01:15:05   that people were really, at Apple, were really trying to find that sweet spot that it holds it

01:15:11   sufficiently well that it's not going to fall out accidentally, but that it still holds on.

01:15:16   - 103 magnets would have been too many. Like, "Oh, it's just a little bit too strong now. 102

01:15:22   is perfect." Right? The overall look of the Key Wolf Folio is incredibly boring. It is just this

01:15:30   smooth, gray nothing. Like, no Apple logo even. It has nothing. It's just smooth, gray nothing.

01:15:40   - This is my grumpy part of my review, especially, is like, it's so disappointing. Like,

01:15:45   it's not textured. The keyboard only comes in gray, which has always been the case,

01:15:51   but even the Folio that doesn't have a keyboard, that comes in gray and white on the big one,

01:15:57   and gray, white, and pink on the small one. And it's this synthetic material. It's super flat and

01:16:02   featureless, which I've also found picks up fingerprints, and it picks up other junk. I had

01:16:07   this in my kitchen at one point when I was cooking something, and I took it back to the living room,

01:16:12   and it had like, just junk all over it. And it's so visible because it's this featureless slab of

01:16:20   gray, kind of not particularly appealing material. And it's, yeah, it's not, and the one side,

01:16:29   which has that flat surface with the keyboard on it, which it's great that it's a single surface

01:16:33   for that, but there's nothing to detail it. It's just empty. At least there's a fold on the other

01:16:38   side. So yeah, the Apple logo, you mentioned that to me yesterday. It's like, "Why not put an Apple

01:16:45   logo on there?" Like, you're Apple. You're the only company that can put Apple logos on stuff.

01:16:49   Emboss an Apple logo on something to say, "I am so awesome. I am using my iPad as a keyboard with,"

01:16:54   and look at that horizontal Apple logo there. Nope, nothing. And it's super disappointing

01:16:59   because like, I understand that from an engineering standpoint, they're probably,

01:17:03   they need to use certain kinds of materials, but like, it just is, it's not attractive. In fact,

01:17:10   what I say in the review, I keep referencing this review that I haven't finished writing yet,

01:17:14   is basically Myke was right, which is I don't like putting stickers all over everything,

01:17:22   but let me tell you, I really want to put stickers all over these keyboard cases because they're

01:17:28   super boring and kind of unpleasant to touch and look at as they are. And that's too bad. Like,

01:17:33   you know, I spent the last couple of years with a leather smart cover on midnight blue on my iPad

01:17:40   Pro and I loved it. I was so happy when they finally came out with some colors and some

01:17:44   better options for the smart cover. But here we are, we're back to the reset here where

01:17:51   the accessories Apple is releasing are extremely functional, but that's it.

01:17:59   - So the previous smart cover kind of had a smart keyboard, I should say,

01:18:04   had like two angles. You would have the keyboard out and it would be in a kind of like,

01:18:09   you know, it would be an angled away from you position, you know, like as you would have a

01:18:13   laptop and then you could flip the keyboard around and you could stand it up in what I would call the

01:18:17   media position, which is the same as what the smart covers used to do, smart covers still do,

01:18:22   but the smart keyboard would also do that. The new keyboard folio has two angles with the keyboard

01:18:30   in front of you. One is what they call desk mode and one is called laptop mode, but the desk mode

01:18:36   is basically the replacement for it standing straight up for you to watch media on it.

01:18:39   - It's media position. You would not, there's no good ergonomic scenario where you're using

01:18:46   that keyboard and the screen is in desk mode, I think. It's just not, either your hands are

01:18:50   gonna be too high or the screen's gonna be too low. In fact, I think on the 11, even in the laptop

01:18:56   mode, the angle isn't steep enough. I think it's much better on the 13 than the 11. It's too upright

01:19:05   in my opinion on the 11, even in the non upright mode. - So the 10-5 had this issue as well. The

01:19:11   10-5 was always way steeper than the 12-9. So that is something that has continued.

01:19:19   - Geometry. - Yeah. I guess it's just

01:19:21   the amount of material that they have, like all that kind of thing, right?

01:19:25   - Yeah, yeah. No, I think it's the pure geometry of it and the size of the, I will say also the

01:19:30   keys are full size on the 13 and even on the 11, it's not quite full size. There are some narrow

01:19:36   keys there. So it's a much nicer typing experience. This is among the reasons that

01:19:41   if you are torn about the 11 and the 13, that 13 has some typing advantages.

01:19:45   - I really missed the media view. I used to use it a lot, especially in bed,

01:19:51   you know, if I'm watching videos or whatever. I miss it. I think it's a shame to lose it.

01:19:56   I know I could get a smart cover, but I'm... - Smart folio.

01:20:00   - Well, yeah, the smart folio, that's what it's called. But it's effectively a smart cover with

01:20:06   a back on it. But I'm just not keen on swapping them around all the time. So I'll see how I go

01:20:11   on that one. I haven't made my mind up on if I get one and do swap it, but that doesn't seem

01:20:17   keen to me. And then I guess the last thing about the keyboard folio, you know, if you don't want

01:20:21   the keyboard in front of you, you kind of wrap it around now. So the keyboard's on the outside,

01:20:24   so you're kind of holding onto the keys. I've heard a lot of people say they don't like this.

01:20:28   For me, it's kind of like a fidget toy because they've got buttons to just press.

01:20:31   So, you know. - I think there's a Hall effect sensor somewhere where basically when you uncouple

01:20:38   the iPad, even though the smart connector is on the back, when the iPad is sitting in one of those

01:20:44   two little trays at the front for the two different angles, it's the snapping of it into that tray via

01:20:53   a magnet that is turning on the keyboard. So when it's uncoupled at all from those little trays,

01:21:02   the keys don't work. So when you wrap it around backward, you can, you know, put your fingers on

01:21:08   those squishy little thingies all you like. It doesn't do anything. Now, if you feel that's weird

01:21:13   and distracting and you don't like it, then I get that. For me, and I think this is actually

01:21:20   an endorsement of this keyboard, I never, ever, ever, ever, ever went anywhere with my old smart

01:21:26   keyboard unless the only thing I was doing was using it for typing something. Otherwise, I would

01:21:34   take another cover or I would leave it off. I just, because it was thick, this other one,

01:21:39   the thing we didn't say, like, it's flat now. The old one had like the thin part and then the super

01:21:44   thick part where the keyboard lived. It was really kind of janky. This new one is just one thing.

01:21:49   It's flat. It feels much better. It's much lighter. The big problem with the 12.9 was always the

01:21:54   surface area of the screen was so huge and it had to cover it, which meant the whole keyboard thing

01:21:58   was huge. There actually were bezels on the keyboard, on the sides of the keys. There was

01:22:05   just like empty space because it had to cover the whole thing. So it's much smaller now and it's

01:22:10   much lighter now. All of these things make it a much better experience. So, you know, there's a lot

01:22:18   going for it. But I will say, so I will carry it around now. And that's a big win. Like, I can

01:22:26   carry it around and I do as my smart cover, essentially, with the keyboard. So that's huge

01:22:31   because I never wanted to do that with the old one. That said, when I'm just reading, especially

01:22:39   like in the morning, if I'm reading like the newspaper in bed while I'm drinking tea, I just

01:22:42   pull it off and just use the naked iPad and that's great. And then it just snaps right back on. So

01:22:50   that's sort of where I am is that I'm using the smart keyboard folio to take it around. But I'm

01:22:55   also trying to be a pretty aggressive in just removing it when I want it out of the way. So

01:23:02   I'm not doing a lot with it folded back and squishing on the little keys. Usually in a

01:23:08   scenario like that, I'll just take it off. Let's talk about the Apple Pencil. I think Apple just

01:23:14   improved the pencil in every conceivable way from version one to version two. It is a huge jump. It

01:23:22   is basically pretty much everything I wanted, but I didn't expect to get everything I wanted. So

01:23:30   again, it's a bigger jump than I would have thought it would have been. It's a weird feeling,

01:23:34   isn't it, when your to-do list for the pencil is exactly, or for any product,

01:23:39   just exactly what is done. But that's what happened with the pencil. Whoever is building

01:23:45   the pencil knew exactly what they needed to hit in the next version. And they did it.

01:23:49   The texture on the new Apple Pencil feels fantastic. It's nice at a halt.

01:23:52   It has a warm feeling to it from the softness of the texture, not this kind of like

01:23:58   cold, hard, shiny plastic. This isn't something that I've seen a lot of people mention because

01:24:03   only people like me really care about it. So one of the reasons it feels nicer to hold is that it

01:24:08   is better balanced. The weight inside of it is more evenly distributed. And the Apple Pencil

01:24:12   is actually smaller. It is not as long as the previous one. So kind of the entire end where

01:24:19   the lightning port was and the cap, they chopped that off. So the new Apple Pencil is slightly

01:24:24   smaller than the last one, and it needed to be. The previous Apple Pencil was slightly too long,

01:24:29   so when you would hold it in your hand, there was too much sticking out the other side,

01:24:32   which misbalanced it. So it has a much nicer feeling in the hand because it is less long,

01:24:37   so it is nicer to hold. It is more evenly balanced. So that's one of the reasons if you

01:24:41   feel like it feels nicer to hold. That's one of the reasons why. Another is the flat side. You can

01:24:47   hold it by the flat side. You can pick it up, you know, and it orientates itself. It doesn't

01:24:52   roll away because it has the flat side. You can put it down. You just put it down without it like

01:24:56   sliding off the table. It's fantastic. And also the flat side is how you store it. It's how you

01:25:01   charge it. The magnetic attachment and pairing and inductive charging is absolutely incredible.

01:25:10   This one thing has changed the pencil considerably. It is always there, and for me,

01:25:19   what is more important than it always being there is that it's always ready. Now, I have always

01:25:26   stored my Apple Pencil in a pen loop that I stuck to the back. It's in the exact same position

01:25:31   as I've always had it. The problem was my iPad and Apple Pencil would stay connected,

01:25:37   the battery would always drain. I grabbed the pencil. It was never charged when I needed it to

01:25:41   be. Now, it always is because you store it on the charger. I have fallen in love with the Apple

01:25:48   Pencil all over again because of this one feature. I think for people like me who don't use the

01:25:56   pencil very much at all, it also makes it more relevant in the sense that, yeah, you want it,

01:26:02   and it's like, "Where is it?" and, "Oh, and it's not charged," and forget it. Whereas with this,

01:26:07   even if you don't know, like you're planning on using it, you're like, "I'm going to do some

01:26:12   pencil stuff here." Even if you don't carry it around all the time, then you just snap it to

01:26:16   the side and you go where you're going and it is there and it's charging and it's ready for you

01:26:22   when you decide to use it. So it's so much better on so many different levels. The magnetic

01:26:26   attachment is not so strong that if you just kind of toss your iPad in a bag, it's not going to pop

01:26:32   off, but it'll be in the bag with your iPad. And when it's out and about and you're using it and

01:26:36   shaking it and stuff, it stays put. - Yeah. So like, you know, it will attach and it will stay

01:26:43   attached and when you're going about your daily business, it will be fine. But as you say, this

01:26:47   exact thing happened to me. I was testing it, taking it in and out of the bag. It will come off,

01:26:51   but it'll be in the bag. I would recommend if you're going to put it in a bag and this

01:26:55   concerns you, just pop it in a different pocket in the bag. Most bags have pencil pockets. Just put

01:27:01   it in there. It's totally fine. Get it when you need it. But it's going to be fine. It is not as

01:27:07   rigid as strapping it to there, but this is as strong a connection as they could do without you

01:27:13   putting the Apple Pencil into something. I think this is the right way to go. The double tapping

01:27:19   gesture is great. This is really nice. I've used it in a bunch of apps that use it and I'm seeing

01:27:26   lots of developers think about interesting ways to do it. We were talking about Ferrite earlier,

01:27:29   and you were telling me that there's a cool feature in Ferrite, the way that they're going to be

01:27:33   implementing it, that you could basically assign a keyboard shortcut to it effectively, which is

01:27:37   fantastic. - The beta, there's like a handful of features, although I wonder if he will expand

01:27:42   those. I don't draw and I don't write out long hand. My need for Apple Pencil has always been

01:27:52   pretty limited, but I think in part due to your feedback, Ferrite has some good Apple Pencil

01:27:58   support. I was looking at it as part of my review. I should say also, we speculated that there was an

01:28:08   accelerometer in here like AirPods, but what Apple told me is that it's a touch sensitive surface on

01:28:13   the front edge. The front of the cylinder of the pencil is like a little tiny track pad wrapped

01:28:20   around that front surface of the pencil, which means theoretically they could support other

01:28:24   gestures. It may be that they found that other gestures and moving your finger around on it

01:28:30   was confusing, but it's possible that software could handle other gestures beyond just a double

01:28:36   tap in the future. But anyway, that is a touch sensitive surface. It's not just feeling the

01:28:40   accelerometer tap. That's not what it's doing. But my point about Ferrite is, yeah, I set Ferrite to

01:28:48   use the pencil to delete audio and a double tap to play and pause. And that allowed me to hold my

01:28:56   iPad in my hand and stop the audio and delete a couple of little segments and then just double tap

01:29:04   the pencil and the audio starts again. And I thought, well, that's pretty cool. Like the idea

01:29:08   that you can do that or you can toggle. And that's an example where the app developer has overridden

01:29:14   the standard settings because there's a standard set of system settings and replaced it with their

01:29:20   own. In this case, you have to because there's no such thing as draw and erase really in an audio

01:29:26   editor. But I'm excited about that as a possibility that the gestural support on the pencil makes it

01:29:34   that much more of a tool that could be used in other apps as well. So all around Apple Pencil,

01:29:42   like I love it. I'm using it more again than I did before. Like I've fallen in love with it all over

01:29:47   again. It's absolutely wonderful. So there are two iPads. There is the 11 inch, there is the 13 inch.

01:29:56   Which one is right for most people? So I use I have been using both iPads frequently, right? Like I

01:30:03   have my uses. I had been using the 10.5 for when I travel and also using it in bed to read and watch

01:30:09   videos and to use it in the morning. And then would use the 12.9 as my work machine. It's where

01:30:16   I'm doing all of my communication, my email or my show planning, all of my administration,

01:30:22   everything's going in there. For me, nothing's changed because even though the 13 inch is small,

01:30:32   you know, it's physically smaller. For me, it's not necessarily the physical size. It's that 13

01:30:38   inches of screen is more screen than I want in those scenarios. Like at night, that's too bright.

01:30:46   It's too big. It's too bright. When I'm reading in bed at night, next to my wife, right? Like it's too

01:30:52   much light. And the 11 is still smaller. It's still lighter. It's still less expensive. You

01:30:58   know, like I actually still think that the 11 inch iPad, especially now that it is 11 inches,

01:31:05   so it's more than 10.5. I think that it is actually even more than the 10.5, the right iPad

01:31:12   for most people. I think the trade offs that you will experience like slightly less than full apps

01:31:17   and multitasking, slightly less than a full size on screen keyboard, they are worth it. If you believe

01:31:24   and if you know that the iPad is going to be a serious part of your working setup,

01:31:29   the 13 inch is probably the right one for you. Otherwise, you should get the 11 inch because I

01:31:34   think that the smaller iPad Pro is now better than it's ever been. So if you're in that camp,

01:31:40   you have a much, much better option available to you. So I sort of agree with you and sort

01:31:46   of disagree with you. I feel like with this generation, with the 13 getting smaller,

01:31:53   that the, I think the 11 is still the right, the smaller of the two is still the right iPad

01:32:01   Pro for a majority of people. I feel like that percentage is less than it used to be.

01:32:10   I think if it was 7030, it's 6040 now. I feel like with the 13 being so much smaller,

01:32:20   so much less kind of ungainly to hold and the benefits you get in terms of the bigger screen,

01:32:26   the better multitasking, the better keyboard, that for a certain class of user that's larger,

01:32:32   maybe who might before have been like, "Oh yeah, I like all those things, but boy, it's just so huge."

01:32:38   It's gonna be, it's less awkward. It's less ungainly. It's more of a pleasant device to hold.

01:32:43   So I think they're closer, but I think you're right. I think the 11 is still

01:32:48   the more likely choice. I will say,

01:32:53   you know, who is the 11 for? The 11 is powerful and beautiful and has all of these accessories,

01:33:04   and that's great. Part of me wants to say that the 11-inch iPad Pro is kind of for people who

01:33:13   want the nicest iPad possible, but may not be using it as an iPad Pro. Because really,

01:33:20   if the smaller screen doesn't bother, it's bigger than the iPad at $350, but for $350,

01:33:26   you can get an iPad, and it has pencil support. It's the old pencil, I know, but you can get that,

01:33:31   and you can get a keyboard case for it if you even want to type on it, and you can do multitasking

01:33:36   and all these things. If you're gonna spend $799 on the 11, I do think there is a good question

01:33:43   to ask yourself, which is, "At this point, what are you gonna use it for?" And if you're really

01:33:47   gonna use it for multitasking and things like that, consider that 13. It's not as ungainly

01:33:53   as it was. That all said, I do think for most people, the 11 is, or for more people than not,

01:34:01   the 11 is the right one to choose. I use, I've used them both, and it's funny because going into

01:34:09   this, I was really thinking that I might go down to the smaller iPad because the larger iPad was,

01:34:13   I love the screen, but it's just, you know, it was a load. It is, you know, it's a heavy thing,

01:34:20   and it's the way to spread out over a large distance. The new 13 really is so much better

01:34:26   at all of that. And then I pick up that 11, and I gotta say, I pick it up, and I'm like,

01:34:32   "Oh no, this is way too small." Like, it's great because it's so light. I spent a day just using

01:34:40   the 11, and at the end of the day, I picked up the 13, and I'm like, "Oh yeah, this is the stuff."

01:34:45   So for me, I am validated. I will say there are times where I've used the 13, and I'm like,

01:34:51   "Which one is this?" Mm-hmm. You lose perspective, but then you pick up the 11, and you're like,

01:34:56   "Oh, it's that one." It's just a, "Hey, little guy!" We are, I think we are mostly in agreement,

01:35:02   right? That, you know, the most people, yes, but the percentages have changed. I 100% agree with

01:35:09   that analogy. They're creeping closer together. And again, it's probably as close as it can get

01:35:15   if they keep these sizes distinct because there isn't really much more you can do to the 13-inch

01:35:21   to make it closer to the 11 now. You know, in size and weight, you know? And I don't think you'd want

01:35:26   it to get any bigger. That's the thing is you don't, and Apple made that choice, right? I think

01:35:31   if we talk about the future of the iPad, I have a hard time imagining them changing from this

01:35:35   scenario right now in terms of the iPad Pro. Yeah, there's an additional size, and it's a different

01:35:41   thing, right? Like, there is a bigger size you can do, but that's a different thing, and we don't know

01:35:46   what that looks like yet. Yeah, because I think that's the truth is if they're going to do

01:35:50   another iPad Pro size other than 11 and 13, I think it's like a 15, and it's an artist's tablet

01:36:01   slate thingy, and I don't think they're actually going to do that, but I feel like that's where

01:36:05   they would go is creating yet another giant screen, not like tinkering around the margins

01:36:12   of these two. They feel like they've kind of landed on more or less the right trade-offs here,

01:36:17   and if you get them closer together, yeah, sure, you can make a 12-inch iPad Pro that's one size

01:36:22   fits all, but I don't know. That doesn't seem necessary. So, we have a little bit more we want

01:36:28   to get to today, but first, let me tell you about Luna Display. I mean, if you want something,

01:36:33   a nice little trinket to make that new iPad Pro purchase even better for you, Luna Display is it.

01:36:40   It is the hardware solution that will turn your iPad into a wireless display for your Mac. You

01:36:46   will have a super portable second display with stunning image quality and zero lag. Setting up

01:36:52   a Luna Display is so simple. You just plug this beautiful little piece of hardware. It's effectively

01:36:57   just, as I say, the smallest dongle you will find. You put it into your Mac, and you'll be up and

01:37:02   running in seconds with everything working over Wi-Fi, or you can also use USB as well to connect

01:37:07   them all up together. It's super simple, and then Luna Display will be a complete extension

01:37:12   for your Macintosh computer. It supports external keyboards as well as Apple Pencil and touch

01:37:16   interactions. So, you have the best of all worlds basically turning your Mac into a part touchscreen

01:37:23   device. It is so simple to set up, and what I love about it is you can just plug it in and leave it,

01:37:28   and whenever your Mac comes on Luna Display, you can have it open and you're ready to go. So,

01:37:32   you don't have to go through this whole mess of like, "Open it on the Mac," and pairing it all

01:37:35   again. It's just you set it, you just open up the Luna Display app on your iPad, and you are ready

01:37:41   to go. I love this thing. It's super simple. You just plug it in, forget about it, and it's there,

01:37:46   and then you have the power of a second display whenever you need it. You know, like if you're on

01:37:50   the road, say you always use two displays at home, you're on the road, you've got a Mac, you've got

01:37:55   like a laptop, and you've got an iPad. Now, you can set up that two display experience no matter

01:38:00   where you are. It's super awesome, and listeners of this show can get 10% off Luna Display. This

01:38:05   is an exclusive discount for our listeners. Just go to lunadisplay.com and use the promo code

01:38:10   UPGRADEITCHECKOUT for that 10% off. That is L-U-N-A-D-I-S-P-L-A-Y dot com, lunadisplay.com,

01:38:19   and the promo code UPGRADEITCHECKOUT. Our thanks to Luna Display for their support of this show

01:38:23   and Relay FM. So, there is a gap between now and June, in which we will, I'm sure, touch on this

01:38:33   many more times, but just from a super high level, I was kind of trying to think of what are some of

01:38:39   the things that we would want to see in iOS 13 to really further take advantage of this professional

01:38:48   grade hardware that we now possess. I think one thing I want to see is some refinements to

01:38:53   multitasking. These are things that I wanted to see from the beginning, like more keyboard controls.

01:39:00   I can hit command space and search for an app, but give me a keyboard shortcut to throw that app to

01:39:06   the left or right side. I can get 70% of the way there with the keyboard. Let me do the whole thing

01:39:15   with the keyboard. I was thinking about this too, right? What more could you do with the dock?

01:39:21   Most of my applications that I use, like 75% of the applications that I frequently use,

01:39:28   they're all in a dock. I've set up my dock in such a way that if I need to bring up a second app,

01:39:33   I can get to it from the dock, or I use Spotlight. But I was thinking, what more could you do?

01:39:38   I was thinking about the home screen, right? How can you change up the home screen? Because

01:39:42   something I think needs to happen there as well. It got me to thinking, I don't know if this is a

01:39:47   good idea, but it's something I thought about. We have Launchpad on the Mac, right? Which is a

01:39:53   way to bring up all your applications from the dock. Why couldn't we just get to our applications

01:40:00   that way on the iPad? Like the Launchpad, which is in the dock, and that's where all your apps are,

01:40:06   and the home screen can be used for something else. Like you could have shortcuts there,

01:40:11   you could maybe have files there, you could have applications there. It's maybe more like the Mac's

01:40:16   desktop and less like an app launcher because you could have an app launcher in the dock.

01:40:22   - Yeah, sure. - Is that crazy? - No, I don't know. I think there's something there, right? I think

01:40:30   overall what you're saying is, I want the multitasking stuff to, I want another stab at it,

01:40:39   another draft of it, where knowing what we know now... - I don't want them to go back to the

01:40:43   drawing board again though, because I don't think that's good. I want to see them just,

01:40:47   because really they pretty much went back to the drawing board with 11. I want to see refinements

01:40:54   to 11's system. - Sure, sure, sure. But the dock is a good example where it's like, well, what

01:40:59   is the purpose of that and how do we get that to be more functional as a part of a multitasking

01:41:07   experience? I mean, the nice thing about using the keyboard is you can also go to Spotlight and find

01:41:15   an app and then drag it into multitasking, but if you don't have a keyboard, you can't do that.

01:41:20   So yeah, I think it's an interesting idea of being able to get more access there. And I hear you

01:41:26   about the keyboard controls. Overarching, it's going to come up a couple of times, but I feel

01:41:30   like keyboard is something like more keyboard stuff is a thing that I really want throughout.

01:41:37   But yes, should you be able to launch an app in multitasking from the keyboard? You totally should.

01:41:42   If that's Spotlight and then you select an app and you hit a keyboard shortcut to pop it

01:41:46   left or right in split view, great, do that. But something like that would be great.

01:41:52   - Keyboards are not the only input peripherals though, right?

01:41:56   - You know, it's been on my list for a long time and people always say like,

01:41:59   that'll never happen. It's like, I'd like to see the proof that that will never happen. It's like,

01:42:03   because Apple said that they wouldn't. Trackpad support, external pointing device support,

01:42:09   oh, that'll never happen. Well, I would have believed you until they put a text editing cursor

01:42:15   in iOS a few years ago. But literally there is a cursor now for editing text. So the genie's out

01:42:23   of the bottle. There's a cursor in iOS now. I would love to have a keyboard with a trackpad

01:42:31   attached to it or an external trackpad for, again, not mandatory, but for situations where I'm

01:42:37   editing text so I can move that text cursor around when I'm using an external keyboard,

01:42:41   instead of having to reach up to the screen and put two fingers on it to do it. Yeah,

01:42:45   I would kind of like that. That would be great. - We have external monitor support,

01:42:51   you know, in a more significant way. I mean, I don't think it would be the worst thing in the

01:42:56   world to have some kind of pointer, like, so that you could plug it in to a display and have a

01:43:03   virtual finger of some description. You know, like, it's not completely graceful, but I wouldn't

01:43:11   mind to see them have a go at it. - Yeah, I think that's less likely, but I think it's not

01:43:18   impossible, especially since a lot of these apps are going to be updated to support menu bar and

01:43:22   cursors and things because of macOS. I also am putting out there, again, in my kind of

01:43:31   impossible future direction, file the idea that Apple's going to release an external monitor

01:43:36   that is a touch screen, and so their external monitor will also, if you plug an iPad into it,

01:43:42   just be a giant iPad. That would be interesting. Maybe that won't happen, but it could. It could.

01:43:48   And then the external storage thing that we've talked about, like, it's just got to be at files.

01:43:52   This is, I'm just gonna put it out there, files needs to support when you plug in an external

01:43:59   storage device, it shows you the external storage device. And if there are technical issues where,

01:44:03   like, we don't want you opening, it's just a copy, you need to copy it to your local storage or

01:44:08   whatever, fine. I don't want to open a file on a drive and then have the drive disappear, great.

01:44:14   Do what you need to do. But when I plug in a storage device, I want files to open, or the

01:44:20   option for files to open. I want to see everything on that device and be able to copy it to an app,

01:44:25   sandbox, or just to my storage on my device, or to my cloud storage. And I don't want to stop there.

01:44:32   Two, I want native support for SMB shares in files. I want to be able to be on a local network

01:44:38   with a file server and mount it in files and copy the files off of it. I can do that with third-party

01:44:44   apps, and those third-party apps will even work within files, although it's really annoying because

01:44:48   you kind of got to launch the app and then launch files, which is kind of beside the point, but you

01:44:52   can do it. Like put it in there, put it in there. The iPad is being used in the enterprise,

01:44:57   enterprise servers, enterprises have not just cloud storage, but they have like file servers.

01:45:02   Companies have file servers. People have file servers. Just, just throw it in there. Again,

01:45:07   is an edge case sort of, but it's a blocker and it's frustrating. And why not just embrace it?

01:45:14   Like, yep, files. We did it. They're not that exciting. That's what Apple will say,

01:45:19   but you can get to them. They're, they're old soon. We will, uh, slough off our human shells

01:45:26   and become beings of pure thought and energy. But until then we have files for you. This is a

01:45:30   somewhat selfish one, but better audio support, multiple simultaneous audio streams. Let me make

01:45:38   a call in Skype and record it in another. Oh, so I w I was thinking about this because, so I was,

01:45:44   I was playing music via my home pod and, um, and I opened ferrite, which uses the audio subsystem

01:45:54   because it can record out of the microphone. And I hadn't, I hadn't switched away from the home pod

01:46:01   controls cause I was controlling my home pod so I could do the volume and next track and all of

01:46:06   that. And the moment I opened ferrite, the music stopped and I thought to myself, okay, this is,

01:46:13   this is ridiculous. Like this has got to change. And this is one of those examples where on iOS,

01:46:17   audio can't do more than one thing at a time. Um, it actually can to separate output devices. Like

01:46:23   in a way they've, they've gotten around this because when you pop open the little floating

01:46:28   thing of audio inputs, you can select a home pod and then play to that and then switch back to your

01:46:33   iPad. And that, that totally works, which is great, but it's like, okay, starting point. But

01:46:39   when I open ferrite, which is hitting the, the, uh, microphone, like, I don't want you to stop

01:46:47   playing my audio. Like I want, I want this thing to be able to do more than one thing at a time.

01:46:52   It needs to be more sophisticated and yes, it would be great if that meant I could run a

01:46:56   recording app and a telephony app simultaneously and recording over here in voice memos or

01:47:03   something else while also being in Skype. Um, and again, I'm not asking for audio hijack.

01:47:09   I would love apps to be able to have that level of audio access that, that rogue Amoeba could

01:47:13   write audio hijack for iOS, but I'm not expecting that. I'm expecting something like, Oh, you can

01:47:19   now use two apps can use the microphone at once. Uh, that would be great. So I don't know. I'm

01:47:27   with you that, that is, yes, it is a little self-serving cause what we do is audio, but also

01:47:31   like again, the more flexibility you build into the system, who knows what other things will come

01:47:35   out of that. Anyone that adopts, um, the iPad with iOS as a significant part of their workflow

01:47:43   will eventually come to shortcuts as the way to bridge gaps or help them fix problems that they,

01:47:51   they need to solve. I would love to see some enhancements to shortcuts as part of this,

01:47:55   you know, being able to have shortcuts trigger in the background automatically, you know,

01:47:59   running at set times, running at set locations, that kind of thing would be wonderful.

01:48:04   Yeah. Uh, I, I agree that one of these, um, one of these things that somebody has asked me in the

01:48:11   past that I couldn't give them a really great answer is like, I want a shortcut to fire off

01:48:15   at a time. And it's like, I think you can do that through this like chain of apps. Uh, you always,

01:48:22   it always has to be some kind of user intervention. So like you have a notification pop up from like

01:48:27   launch center pro, which when you tap will go to tap, go to it and launch it, but you always have

01:48:32   to intervene. Exactly. So, so yes, being able to say, I just want to schedule this and run it at

01:48:38   this certain time. And I, yes, yes, Apple, that is scary because who knows how people will use those

01:48:47   sorts of things, but you can't neuter the system that way. You can't, you have to let people do

01:48:54   things like that. Even if they're, you know, they're annoying cousin will set a fart to play

01:49:02   out of the speakers at full volume at three. Right. Okay, fine. Don't let your cousin use

01:49:08   your iPad then, but I need to, I want, I want my alarm, put it in the alarms, put it in the

01:49:13   clock app and say, when this alarm goes off, don't make sound, but play a shortcut like, okay,

01:49:17   that, that would be fine. If they want to do it that way. I'll also throw in, I want keyboard

01:49:21   shortcuts for shortcuts. I want to be able to launch a shortcut anywhere in the system

01:49:26   by using a defined shortcut. And yes, I realize that there's complexity there as there is on the

01:49:33   Mac. On the Mac, you can set a global shortcut and sometimes that will be overridden or override

01:49:39   in a particular app because it has a different shortcut. That's life. Choose a different,

01:49:44   choose a different shortcut then like, again, we're humans, we're smart. We can figure it out,

01:49:48   but let me do that. Let me be able to in any app go bloop and a shortcut happens. I got,

01:49:57   you and I probably have lots of other shortcut things. I would like the shortcuts,

01:50:01   shortcuts to optionally run. Right now shortcuts run and show you the shortcut in a lot of

01:50:07   contexts. It's terrible. Like I get it, but it's like, that is, that is one of the most

01:50:12   aggressively nerdy things that Apple has done in a very long time. Like that is like running an app

01:50:17   with a window that shows you what source code is currently running. No, like I think it's great

01:50:22   for debugging, but as a user tool, you need the option of throwing up some UI that says,

01:50:28   my shortcut is running now and not here's a shortcut in its entirety as you watch it go

01:50:36   through the steps. That's so I would like shortcuts to be simplified and less in my face as well.

01:50:42   I feel like we got to mention Xcode. Sure. Yes. There's actually a #askupgrade question.

01:50:48   There was two I wanted to get today, but this is one. I kind of like this theory where Matt says,

01:50:53   could a reason behind the move to USB-C be Xcode and using the iPad to develop for the phone,

01:50:58   perhaps coming of iOS 13. I like that Jason style fever dream theory. Yeah. Right. Like,

01:51:04   and there are lots of reasons the developers will tell you why the iPad is not a real device,

01:51:10   but it always comes back to I can't do my development on it. And like fair point, I think

01:51:15   personally in the grand scheme of things, having developer tools on the iPad is not as important

01:51:20   as some of these other areas. But if I was a developer, I would feel differently about it,

01:51:24   probably. So I think it's out there. I still believe that Apple, what Apple is going to do

01:51:29   is they're going to do a new thing that lets you build apps and it'll run on iOS. It'll be

01:51:34   Swift only. Yeah. It won't be Xcode. It'll have some limitations. It might not be Swift only.

01:51:38   You might be able to bring in C and objective C and all of that, but it's going to be like

01:51:42   a different set of tools that are next gen developer tools that run on it and won't be

01:51:48   able to do everything. And if you're like using an existing app there, there will probably be like

01:51:53   18 different reasons why you can't bring that app over to the iOS environment. But if you're

01:51:58   building a new app or you're building a certain subclass of apps, you can do it. And then there'll

01:52:03   be lots of complaining about that because that's what everybody does when you don't get exactly

01:52:07   what you want. But that seems to me like the most likely path forward. Again, not high on my list,

01:52:12   but it's got to be a start point, but you do have to start somewhere and it's unlikely that they're

01:52:16   going to say, Oh, we ported all of Xcode over. It's going to be, we have this new thing. And it may

01:52:19   be we have this new thing on all our platforms, right? It may be that, you know, we're going to,

01:52:24   we're going to keep Xcode here. It's going to be the thing that you can use for all your existing

01:52:28   projects. We're going to keep updating it, but we're also building a next gen set of tools and

01:52:32   here it is. And it also runs on the iPad. And then the last thing that I wanted to mention was like,

01:52:37   Apple supporting pro development via developer business models in some ways. So like,

01:52:45   what can Apple do to entice more support for pro software? Like, can they realistically do

01:52:51   anything? I don't know. Like, do they need to do more or encourage more about subscription stuff?

01:52:57   Like larger companies like Adobe are bringing more software to the iPad and they're supporting this

01:53:03   because it's subscription. Um, or is this something that's naturally going to play out when the iPad

01:53:08   and the Mac run the same software? Is that what Apple does? Right? Like, will WWDC 2019 make it

01:53:14   easier for developers because they can create these applications that run in both places? Like,

01:53:19   is that what they need to do to help developer business models? Like, I'm not sure what the

01:53:23   answers are, but they need to do something. And I think the seeds are there to try and convince,

01:53:31   you know, some developers that this bringing professional, more professional software to the

01:53:36   iPad is a good move. Maybe. I mean, I think the subscription thing catches a bunch of it. I think

01:53:42   as the more as the perception of these as professional devices, like, as that continues

01:53:49   to permeate, app developers will think I want to reach those, the people who are using that,

01:53:53   and I want to price it accordingly. I just, as an experiment, I haven't gotten a chance to use it

01:53:57   yet, but I bought LumaFusion, which is a video editor. Um, it's 20 bucks. Like, and again,

01:54:02   that's not a hundred bucks. It's not 200 bucks, but it's 20 bucks. Fairite, uh, was about $20

01:54:07   all in. And then he just came up with a, came out with a fair right up update, which added an

01:54:11   in-app purchase for new features. And I thought, you know, you can do it like these, this is,

01:54:19   this is a software business model. It's not quite the old software business model. It's awfully

01:54:23   close. Like the fair, I think is super close where it's like, literally you get all your existing

01:54:28   features and if you want the new features, give me another five bucks or whatever. Um, I, I feel

01:54:34   like the, um, you know, honestly, I feel like the big issue here is just going to be to show

01:54:40   that lots of professionals are on the iPad pro. I think if you, if, if they are there, then the

01:54:46   tools will come and that's a chicken and egg problem, but guess what? The chicken just laid

01:54:50   an egg and it's Photoshop and it comes out next year. So maybe that will help matters. Um, and

01:54:55   you know, who else would help Apple? Apple would help if Apple would take its own logic pro apps

01:55:01   and put them on the platform and they've got garage band and iMovie. And I'll just say it,

01:55:08   I'm going to, I'm going to try to be a little mean here when you're Apple and you're trying to

01:55:14   explain to people that the iPad pro is a professional tool and that it should be taken

01:55:18   seriously. Um, it is counterproductive to have your video and audio editing apps on the iPad pro

01:55:25   be toy versions of your real pro software. And that's what they have now. They have garage band,

01:55:30   which is a toy version of logic and the hell I movie, which is a toy version of final cut pro.

01:55:35   And, uh, you know, it, it, it, when I think about it, it infuriates me because you cannot

01:55:41   tell me with a straight face that this is a professional tool when your own software

01:55:46   development shows that you don't take it seriously. So, um, like not to be too harsh here, but Apple,

01:55:54   if you want us to take the iPad pro seriously, take it seriously yourself. Whoever is in charge

01:55:58   of deciding what pro apps go on the iPad is asleep at the switch. I'm sorry. I'm just going to say it

01:56:04   that way. It is unconscionable that this product exists and we still have garage band and iMovie

01:56:11   and not logic and final cut. It doesn't have to be the same logic. It doesn't have to be the

01:56:16   same final cut, but how are we supposed to say, well, Adobe hasn't brought Photoshop to the iPad.

01:56:24   That's a real shame. Apple hasn't brought final cut to the iPad. Apple hasn't brought logic.

01:56:27   They've got the apps and they insist on creating these baby apps, these neutered apps, these,

01:56:33   these subset apps. And they exist on the Mac too, because a lot of users don't need the complexity

01:56:39   of those apps. Right. But garage band and iMovie and iOS are not even as powerful as I can apply

01:56:46   on the Mac either. But I'm saying the existence of garage band and iMovie is great, right? Like

01:56:50   you shouldn't feel offended if I, if I say the garage band and iMovie on, on the iPad, aren't

01:56:56   enough because for some people they are enough. My point is on the Mac, Apple does both because

01:57:01   for some people you just want garage band. Other people are like, no, I want to spend money. I want

01:57:04   to get logic. I need logic. I did that. I went from garage band to logic. Never looked back. Totally

01:57:09   worth it for me. Many people it's not worth it. That's great. On the iPad, you have no choice

01:57:15   because Apple hasn't bothered to bring their pro apps to their, to their pro tablet platform. It's

01:57:21   pathetic. So, you know, for all of the, you know, we can grouse about iOS, but like, where are the

01:57:27   apps, Apple? Like this is, and this is fundamentally, this is my frustration with this product is I love

01:57:33   it. I can do a lot of work with it. The problem is I can see, and I think you're in the same boat

01:57:37   here. I can see a lot of other ways I could do work with it, but nobody, you know, nobody knows

01:57:45   the barriers to doing certain kinds of work on the iPad pro better than people who work on the iPad

01:57:50   pro all the time. Trust me. And it is frustrating to see Apple make such great hardware. And then

01:57:58   like their software, just their software game isn't there. Their app game isn't there. It's so

01:58:03   frustrating because I can do a lot, but there's a lot more I want to do with my iPad pro that I just

01:58:08   can't do because the software's not there. And this is the big difference between people like us

01:58:13   and people who are coming to this device fresh. We see the same problems, but we also get more

01:58:19   benefit out of the improvements. Right. So we can see more of the fuller picture where like,

01:58:25   I totally understand. Like if you're trying to use this as your work machine and you feel like

01:58:28   you can't do it, like you're going to be annoyed about it and you're not going to get the good out

01:58:32   of it, but we get the good and we still see the frustration, but I have hope. Uh, I want to finish

01:58:38   today with one last hashtag ask a great question. It comes from Brent. Brent wants to know just one

01:58:44   laser this week, very short laser. Do you guys organize your iPad home screens based on portrait

01:58:49   or landscape layouts landscape, right? Oh yeah. Landscape. Absolutely. That's how I use my iPad.

01:58:55   It's a horizontal machine. In fact, when I am, I do use it in portrait in vertical when I'm,

01:59:01   you know, reading a newspaper in the morning, like something like that. And obviously for comic

01:59:06   books, I do it too. So I do that. And whenever I'm in the home screen, I go back to the home

01:59:10   screen in that orientation. I'm like, Oh, where is it? I don't know where anything is important.

01:59:14   No idea. Nothing. No idea. No, it's, we didn't get the Apple logo on the back and landscape this

01:59:20   time, which frustrates me a little bit, but again, and the thought that they could have put it on the

01:59:25   folio in the right orientation. And so when you've got the keyboard on suddenly your Apple's in the

01:59:30   right orientation and they didn't do that. Oh, it makes me so sad. Like this was your chance to kind

01:59:35   of fake it and say, yeah, it is a horizontal device when it's in this. Nope. Nope. Oh, well.

01:59:40   We will be answering more Ask Upgrade questions next week. So send in your tweets with the

01:59:47   hashtag #AskUpgrade and we can pull those out on another episode. Also don't forget a couple of

01:59:52   weeks time. My name is Totoro and Myke at the Movies. And don't forget to also get your votes

01:59:58   in for the fifth annual upgrade ease. This has probably been the end of review season.

02:00:04   Oh, I hope so. Products. Um, so we'll be going back to maybe more regular content and programming

02:00:11   next week, but I will say it's been very busy, but this is a very, very exciting time. And it's

02:00:16   fun to talk about these new things. Um, you can look out for Jason's review of the iPad pro. It

02:00:21   will be going up before our next episode at six colors.com. Yep. I'm going to put that on you,

02:00:27   Jason. Thank you. All right. Yes. I would like to finish it, uh, sooner rather than later.

02:00:32   Yeah. I would just naturally expect that you will have it done by next Monday.

02:00:37   You know, I'm going to just naturally assume that on your behalf. Jason is @JSNEL on Twitter, J S N

02:00:44   E double L. I am @imike. I am @wenke on Twitter and Instagram. Um, this show is a part of Relay

02:00:52   FM. Go to relay.fm/shows and you can find more wonderful programming. If you've enjoyed

02:00:57   this discussion about the iPad pro well on connected this week, I'm going to be asking

02:01:01   Federico Vittucci for his views on the iPad pro, which I'm very excited about to understand how

02:01:07   Federico has been enjoying this. He's been pretty deep in the, uh, peripheral rabbit hole as well.

02:01:13   He's been connecting monitors and all this kinds of stuff. So I'm excited to see what he has to say.

02:01:18   Uh, thanks again to our sponsors this week, Luna display, Pingdom and holo, and we'll be back next

02:01:25   time. Thanks for listening. Say goodbye, Jason Snow. Bye everybody.