208: The Villain of the Macintosh


00:00:00   [Intro music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade Episode 208. Today's show is brought to you by TextExpander from SMILE, Inboard Technology, and Eero. It is the summer of fun! My name is Myke Hurley, and that echo you hear in the background is actually Jason Snell. Hi Jason Snell.

00:00:28   Hello Myke Hurley, hello, and we're back here on Upgrade. It's good to be back.

00:00:33   As we say every week, the summer of fun, whilst continuing, I can see the sun setting on the summer of fun.

00:00:40   I know, it's a beautiful summer sunset, isn't it Myke?

00:00:43   But it is going down, down, down.

00:00:45   This may be it?

00:00:47   This may be it. For all we know, we're on summer of fun watch right now, because any week could be the end.

00:00:57   But you're not gonna know.

00:00:59   Yeah, because what's gonna happen is, Apple's going to announce that they're doing an event.

00:01:03   And the week previous to that, we will do our draft. And the draft is not really part of the summer of fun. It's part of the fall of product releases.

00:01:13   So, probably either this episode or next week's episode will be the last in the extended summer of fun.

00:01:21   It's only fitting that this is, as we move from August into September, the summer is ending, my kids are back in school now.

00:01:27   It's just, here we are. All good things must come to an end, even the summer of fun.

00:01:33   And whilst I know that literally everybody does care about this, we must move on with the show.

00:01:37   And start with our #SnellTalk question, which comes from Cameron.

00:01:41   Cameron wants to know, "Did you like maths in school? And what is your favorite number?"

00:01:47   I thought you were gonna say, "And which maths did you like?"

00:01:51   What were your favorite of the maths?

00:01:53   Of various maths that exist. Did I like math in school? I did well at math in school.

00:02:03   And all the way through to a year of calculus in college. And I did well with that.

00:02:12   The grades were good. Did I like it? I don't know. I didn't love it. There were parts of it that I liked better than other parts.

00:02:19   I liked geometry, I think, or parts of that. There was a math class I took in college where there was, I think it was quadratic equations.

00:02:31   At that point in the quarter, I had basically guaranteed myself an A. I had done the math, you see, to figure out that if I didn't learn that chapter and didn't get anything right on that chapter on the final, that I'd still get an A.

00:02:47   And therefore, I never learned that. And Jamie was doing some quadratic equations in her math class last year.

00:02:55   And I remember thinking, "Oh yeah, I never learned this. I skipped this part because it was unnecessary for my grade."

00:03:02   So obviously, I was not as enthusiastic about it. My mother always used to say, "Oh, I like math. It's like solving a mystery."

00:03:10   And I would always laugh and be like, "No, it's not. That doesn't work on me. I guess that worked for her, but it never worked for me. The old math is just a mystery.

00:03:19   You're some sort of number detective and math is the mystery." Never worked for me. But I did find out. It was a means to an end.

00:03:28   Working problems was fine. It was never particularly hard. It was just not fun.

00:03:32   My favorite number? As my answer just revealed, I have no favorite number. They're all fine.

00:03:39   My wife will talk about how her birthday is her favorite number. So 16 is her favorite number. I don't have a favorite number. I don't even know what it would be.

00:03:52   So, sure. Sorry, Cameron. I thought math was fine and I have no favorite number.

00:03:59   I enjoyed math and was good at it. Maths. Until the age of 13 or 14. I was above my grade. I was actually really good at it. I was one of the top in my year.

00:04:20   As soon as algebra came into the equation, I lost complete interest. I wasn't good at it anymore and I hated it.

00:04:29   So you were more of a plus/minus multiply/divide kid.

00:04:33   As soon as the explanations for how does this work or why does this work started to drift towards just because my brain couldn't handle it anymore, I mostly checked out.

00:04:46   I think that's the hard thing about abstract math is that for some people it is hard to--because math can get very abstract.

00:04:54   Geometry was different in the sense that you were talking about angles and shapes and you could--there are lots of places that geometry is useful in terms of things like when you're playing pocket run pool.

00:05:08   That's geometry happening there. That's interesting. But yeah, it can get really esoteric and it's very hard. A lot of kids come totally unmoored at that point.

00:05:17   They're like, "What does this even mean?" I've seen that in my kids too where they try to make it have applications but so often it's just so abstract and it can be hard for people's brains to grab onto.

00:05:29   My favorite number is 24. I have no idea why. It's just been that way since I was a kid.

00:05:35   I was going to give some kind of annoying answer like pi or e as my favorite number or the square root of negative one. It's my favorite imaginary number.

00:05:47   But no, I don't--when I was a kid I always thought that seven would be a cool football jersey to have.

00:05:53   But that's not my favorite number. I just thought that was a good football jersey number. So I don't have a favorite number.

00:06:02   Thank you so much to Cameron for the #snelltalk question. If you would like to ask a question to open the show, you just send a tweet with the #snelltalk and put it in the list for future consideration.

00:06:13   Jason, should we close the saga on your television? I understand that you have a little bit more you wanted to touch on today.

00:06:19   Sure. Will there be math? There's going to be more. By the way, don't send in--this was the best math question that could ever be asked on Snell Talk.

00:06:28   I want--because I'm afraid that next week's Snell Talk question will be, you know, a train is moving west at 30 miles an hour.

00:06:35   No. This is the thing. Jason, people may send those in. I'm not going to pick them, right? Because I don't want to be put in a situation where I might need to try and answer something like that.

00:06:43   This is not a math podcast. Don't send us your homework, basically. That's not what we're going to do.

00:06:48   No, we've got enough homework in my house. I don't need any more of it. Yeah, okay, so TV follow-up.

00:06:53   I was giggling at one of the blurbs that--because I write the blurbs for upgrade and send them to you.

00:07:00   And for those who don't listen to the podcast live at 9 a.m. Pacific, 5 p.m. GMT, or--BST. London time, anyway, because it rolls.

00:07:11   Yeah, it's a good way to remember, you know, GMT, that is the time that everybody sets to, and then the other time, which is the best time. We're the best time. That's how it works.

00:07:19   The best time. It's British summertime. Anyway, so for those who don't listen, when we're done with the show, you can hear us look through the titles, and we pick the titles.

00:07:27   And then the last thing that happens is that Myke tells me that I need to write the blurb. So I write the blurb that goes in your podcast player and says, "Oh, this week, Jason and Myke, blah, blah, blah."

00:07:35   And a couple weeks ago, I wrote one that was great because it was a huge week. Apple broke a trillion dollars in market cap, and Jason got a TV.

00:07:44   And I still--I saw that the other day, and I was like, "That's pretty good. I like that. That made me laugh." Anyway, I do have a TV. I got my furniture.

00:07:51   So the saga of the $999.97 television that prompted the purchase of a couple thousand dollars in other materials, yeah.

00:08:03   But it's nice. I had thought for a long time that I was going to put the TV on the wall, but it's on this table.

00:08:09   And it's a piece of furniture that's made for electronic stuff. So unlike my old setup where I literally, like, cut holes in the back of the shelving in order for there to be ventilation and also cables to pass through.

00:08:27   Just not--like, literally, I was just cutting holes. It was not good. So this one comes with routing and ventilation and all those things.

00:08:39   So that was great. So all of my electronic gear other than the TV and a little sensor that stuck to the front of the TV that you can't even see is inside.

00:08:49   And then I had--I already had this for a couple of pieces, but now it's for everything. I have one of these little infrared routing things where you put that sensor on the outside, and then there's a little box.

00:09:00   And then you get a couple of little things that plug into it that are infrared repeaters, emitters, basically, and you stick those on your other devices.

00:09:10   And at that point, the infrared--the stuff that's controlled by infrared, there's now a conduit, so you don't have to see any of that stuff, but it has a window through that one little sensor into the outside world, which means that I can control--

00:09:23   you know, some of my stuff is radio frequency controlled, like the Apple TV and the TiVo, but some of it is still infrared controlled. And I think--'cause I've got a Logitech Harmony, and I think I could hook it up to do all of that too,

00:09:41   but the problem is that I have a couple of remotes that I use that are sending infrared signals, and I think the Harmony would basically, like, not like that. Like, it wouldn't relay other remote signals, just its own that it's getting from the little wireless remote that it has.

00:10:02   Anyway, so, but it works. It all works. My living room is super different now, because there was a huge piece of furniture that went almost all the way up to the ceiling that's completely gone.

00:10:13   Now there's just this kind of, like, sideboard-ish cabinet that's against the wall, so it looks like we repainted the room, only because you can see the paint on the wall, which you couldn't see before.

00:10:25   And we actually--and we have one bookshelf left on that wall, and we actually have rotated it 90 degrees, so it's against the back wall, actually, against the wall to the garage.

00:10:33   And so it's even clearer over there. It looks really nice, and the TV is beautiful too, but now the living room feels different. We are limited with what we can do in our living room.

00:10:43   But that's pretty good. So I'm pretty happy with that. I also had a little follow-up from a listener. This was almost the Snell Talk question this week, and then I told you this should just roll into the TV follow-up, which is what listener Andrew wrote in to say, "What do you do for audio? You put a lot of care into your TV buying decision."

00:11:01   I mean, I bought a TV. I don't know if that's a lot of care.

00:11:03   You put a lot of thought into it, though, it would seem. But technically, we've been talking about it.

00:11:07   It's a purchase, right? You spend $1,000 on something, you should probably think about it. But what Andrew wanted to know is what about audio, and do I have a 5.1 receiver somewhere, and have you considered using an AV receiver as your primary hub for your input sources?

00:11:25   All right, so I can talk about this for a second. I'm feeling very John Siracusa right now, talking about television purchases on a podcast. Seems like that's John's thing, but here I go.

00:11:34   I do have a 5.1 receiver. This is follow-up about TVs, so it's all John Siracusa.

00:11:40   This is the prime follow-up.

00:11:41   I'd like to welcome John Siracusa to the show, who's -- no, he's not here. Yeah, so I have a 5.1 receiver. I have a center channel. I have a left and right channel, and I have rear surrounds that are in the ceiling when we read at our house.

00:11:52   We had speakers put in the ceiling behind the chair that's the primary viewing for the TV.

00:12:01   Have I considered using an AV receiver as the hub for my input sources? My receiver is older and doesn't do 4K, so the 4K stuff can't plug into it.

00:12:11   So the way it's set up is I've got my 4K sources, which are the Apple TV and the Xbox One X, going direct into the TV, and then there's an optical cable that actually runs out to the receiver for audio sending back to the home theater.

00:12:28   So basically the home theater gets the audio from the Apple TV and the Xbox via the television set.

00:12:35   All the other devices are being switched via HDMI on the receiver to the third input -- and there are only three -- on the TV.

00:12:45   So if we're watching something on, like, the Wii U or the Switch, those all get routed through the receiver instead.

00:12:55   Maybe someday I'll buy a new receiver with fancy new audio formats and fancy 4K video switching and stuff like that, where I could actually use -- I was talking to listener Jesse, who used to run a brewery in San Francisco, and he listens to the show and I had lunch with him the other week.

00:13:19   And he was saying, "Oh, my setup, I've got the receiver controls everything and it's controlled by the TV and it's like a single -- it's got all that stuff that John Syracuse had talked about not working works for him."

00:13:31   And I'm skeptical that it would work for me, but I may get there at some point.

00:13:36   But for now, it's basically the setup I had before, other than a couple of the inputs are in different places.

00:13:42   And in fact, my center channel is literally the center channel I bought when I first bought a surround system, which was in the mid-90s, and I still have that speaker.

00:13:54   But it's invisible now because the new thing I bought, the new furniture I bought, has a little panel under the TV that's transparent.

00:14:01   It's like a speaker cover and you can pop it off and put a speaker behind it and you can't see the speaker, you just see the little panel and it looks really nice, but there is a speaker back there making noise.

00:14:12   So anyway, so for Andrew, yeah, I've got 5.1 audio and every now and then I think, "Why am I doing this?"

00:14:19   And then I hear cool surround sound happening when I'm watching a movie and then I'm like, "That's why I do this."

00:14:28   Also, as I think I said on our first installment of this, to wrap it all up, I did enter this kind of interim period where I just had the TV speaker and I was afraid that I was going to hear the speaker coming out of the TV and think, "Why am I wasting my time with all of this home audio stuff?"

00:14:46   And no, it sounded terrible. So I'm very happy to have the audio that I've got.

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00:16:48   So there are two reports that came out. One basically immediately after we published last week's episode and one this morning so I appreciate Bloomberg understanding that you need to publish before Upgrade so thank you for that.

00:17:05   Solid.

00:17:06   Both reports have the byline of Mark Gurman and Debbie Wu from Bloomberg. One of them is about Macs and the other is about the iPhone X mostly. So let's start chronologically let's go through the Macs.

00:17:20   So really all of the information that you need is contained within one sentence which is "Apple will release a new low-cost laptop and a professional focused upgrade to the Mac Mini desktop later this year."

00:17:33   Basically this is an article that is written around that one piece of information that they have. This is not a criticism because if that's all you've got well that is good information to give to us.

00:17:45   I want to know those two things but it doesn't really seem like right now there is a lot more information than that but that will not stop us digging into it in a little bit more detail even though Jason kind of has a little bit already because you were on the talk show this weekend.

00:17:59   But I'm only 10 minutes into the episode so far and I want to talk to you about it and that's how it works around here.

00:18:04   Alright that's how it works that's fine but people can go check if you want to listen to me and John Gruber speculate about naming of products especially.

00:18:15   We're not going to do that I don't think.

00:18:16   It's in there. It's in there. It's a good conversation if you've got a spare two and a half hours.

00:18:20   I've started it and I'm looking forward to getting through it because I do love when you two are together. I always enjoy it. Funnily enough we're kind of doing a talk show in reverse today because we're talking about keyboards later as part of the summer of fun but we'll get to that.

00:18:32   Summer baseball.

00:18:33   It's special keyboards. It's special keyboards.

00:18:35   So let's do these things in two parts. We're going to talk about the Mac Mini then we'll talk about the laptop. So going back to the article. For this year's Mac Mini Apple is focusing primarily on pro users with new storage and processor options likely to make it more expensive than previous versions.

00:18:53   What is this Mac Mini Jason? What is it? I can't seem to get my head around what this product is actually going to be.

00:19:03   So I think it's and there's a good conversation on ATP. Again, thank you to Bloomberg for last week releasing this after we did our episode.

00:19:12   That's good though. It just gives us more time to think you know.

00:19:15   Yeah, it's true. It's true.

00:19:16   That's hot takes. More like well-baked takes.

00:19:19   ATP covered this pretty well too but I first off I want to say I have once again seen people revive this kind of dream that it's basically a Mac Pro enclosure that can scale up or scale down as needed which is just not how it works.

00:19:35   The ex-Mac.

00:19:36   Yeah, you can't the demands that what you would have to build for a Mac Pro would make the base model of a Mac Mini so ridiculously expensive. It's just it's that's not how it's going to work. They're going to build something that is probably a lot like the Mac Mini that we know today but with modern stuff.

00:19:51   Maybe they will redesign the exterior. They do that every every so often. I think it could be smaller. I think they can get away from I think they should be getting away from the spinning discs and the optical drives now, you know, they they keep escaping these

00:20:05   things that take up a lot of space inside so it doesn't have to be a smallest like the Intel NUC that I have but smaller than the current Mac Mini design would probably be something that they could do and the fact is if you look at what Intel provides these days there are pretty powerful processors including

00:20:25   for core which were not available when they did the last redesign so they actually took them off of the price list. So I think all this is going to be is that they're going to let it be a little less constrained by price. They're not going to worry about it being a $500 Mac.

00:20:40   Maybe it'll start five or six hundred dollars, but it'll go way up from there. Maybe it will start at seven or eight who knows but it'll have you know, I fives in there maybe an I7 certainly I fives for core SSDs and modern connection stuff and it'll just be a modern Mac Mini and then they'll ride that one for four more years.

00:21:00   I don't think this is actually going to be a particularly complicated product. I think it's going to use the latest stuff from Intel and that Apple has and I think as Marco mentioned on ATP basically like imagine a MacBook Pro or a MacBook Escape put in a Mac Mini enclosure.

00:21:18   That's basically what this could be and that could be great.

00:21:21   Is the Pro the marketing? Is it pro in the marketing then?

00:21:24   I think the professional focused upgrade my choice of interpretation there is that this is a product that leans into what people are using the Mac Mini for and those people want features that are a little more expensive and they're not going to shy away from it.

00:21:41   I think I read this as being much more that they're less concerned about the Mac Mini being a $500 entry-level Mac for people who want to buy a headless Mac and then attach a you know, the monitor from their PC to it and they attach their PC keyboard mouse the kind of original premise of the Mac Mini.

00:21:58   So we're maybe looking at something that starts with like $700 right and they're not as you say they're not going to they're not going to go to the bottom of the line or whatever with stuff they're going to go middle of the road to begin with because quite frankly the Mac Mini customer buys laptops now.

00:22:15   Right? I.e. most people.

00:22:18   This is a utility Mac. I mean people do use it in a desktop configuration and it will still do that. But I think that I think that what Apple is doing here or at least how it's being because again, there's layers here how it's being interpreted by Bloomberg as a professional focused upgrade.

00:22:36   There is a line later on about this too, but it's it's a focusing primarily on pro users and new storage and processor options are likely to make it more expensive than previous versions that seems to be I mean, I just think that's really straightforward that the base price will probably come up again.

00:22:52   Remember when it shipped the first time it was 500 and then they went up to 600 and then later they brought it back down. I think they're going to not shy away from making it six or seven hundred dollars to start and then you're going to have a whole bunch of things that will boost the price up and and that's good right?

00:23:10   Because if you're somebody who wants to buy one of these things and your frustration has been that it's not powerful enough then here's the other way that they can go which is like all right. You can make it powerful now. You can make a really powerful. You can load up a really powerful processor and a bunch of SSD and it'll be more expensive also more expensive.

00:23:27   I do kind of read that as SSD like I said before like are you going to build a new desktop enclosure today and build it around a spinning hard drive which would be like by far the largest thing in inside that Mac Mini if you take it out take the spinning hard drive out and take the options of having like a like a fusion drive out of that thing.

00:23:47   It can be a lot smaller, but it'll also be a lot more expensive to start because SSDs are more expensive. So I think that might be involved here. I don't know if I would make a bet that they're going to completely drop the spinning disk, but I will tell you that you know, I understand the economic issues but like product design wise you should not design a new enclosure for this thing around a spinning hard drive like don't just don't do it.

00:24:11   Just just commit to it and say look it starts at 700 and that's with a tiny SSD in it. And if you want lots of external storage our customers you can hear them saying it. Oh our customers who want external storage.

00:24:22   They love external storage on the Mac Mini and that's how where they can store all their stuff. But the SSD is important for performance and blah blah blah. So that's what I think they're more likely going to do is is yeah.

00:24:34   SSDs make it really small lots of processor options lots of expensive SSDs, you know expansion options and port wise. I think they can fit like my Intel NUC which I will grant you has has ports on the front and the back which seems very un-apple like in this day, but it's got really good though for USB A's and a USB C.

00:24:58   Yeah, I have ports on the front and back of my PC and every single time I use one of the USB ports on the front which is typically for something quick. I think to myself. I love that you're there USB port right because if I'm just plugging in a controller to play what this one game with I play a controller controller with I want to be messing around pulling things out of the back.

00:25:17   Like is it got where is it going to pop it straight in the front? I know Apple aren't going to do this. I'm not advocating for them to do this. It's merely a point of be just saying it's really nice sometimes.

00:25:26   Yeah, so and I use that on my on the Intel NUC to where it's like I just need to plug this thing in. It's not permanently in there, but I need to plug this in for a few minutes and then unplug it anyway. It's got lots of ports and that's a USB C Thunderbolt 3 port that it's actually got on the back.

00:25:40   So I imagine they'll do probably a combination since the desktop Mac of USB a and USB C and it'll be Thunderbolt 3 and again, that's a thing where they're going to they're going to not necessarily be afraid of designing it for more pro use rather than it being cheap because they could make a cheap Mac right, but it's almost against the brand promise like Apple doesn't want to make a cheap Mac the $500 is already like pretty low down there in terms of the Mac mini.

00:26:07   So yeah, so I think that's how I read it is it's literally it is what you think it is don't overthink it. It's a Mac mini the with the latest Intel stuff, which means it will be more powerful and that will you can load it up with features and make it a powerful system that you can use for whatever you want to use it for in wherever you want, which is what the Mac mini should be and having some flexibility there to have it be the cheap one or where it's not as cheap as it was, but it's still relatively cheap or have it be the super price for it.

00:26:36   Have it be the super pricing one that's got more features great like that's that's a nice thing for them to do, but I don't think it's I think that's the limit of this use of the word pro users. I don't think it goes beyond that.

00:26:48   I was about to say like it's pointless to make a cheaper Mac mini and I want to kind of I want to try and wrap this up in a way that tries to address.

00:26:56   I understand that there are people that use Mac minis for all sorts of uses like who want a cheaper Mac mini etc like I get I get that there are always people that use products in ways that either they were or weren't meant for right like I understand that there are some people that their budget is stretched to the point that they can only afford to buy a Mac mini and then hook it up to their PC.

00:27:17   I get that but the same time like Apple knows. Who they're selling this stuff to like nobody knows better than them right like what is selling what's not selling my expectation is that over the next few years and it's and I think that we see a big moment when they introduce this Mac mini the Apple considers their desktop machines as professional focused machines by and large because that's where they're being used and I think that this extends like even looking at something like the iMac 5.

00:27:46   K it is a very nice expensive machine like is being used in almost prosumer level by probably a lot of their customers because by and large people own and use laptops now and plug them into a screen if they want to and the thing is like Apple knows this their data says it do you remember off the top of your head when they did that breakdown was it something it was like single it was like low double digit percentages with desktop or something like that was what they said.

00:28:15   It's been for a very for a very long time it's been like a quarter of the between a third and a quarter trending toward a quarter of their sales are just yeah so you know you look at it and say clearly people are buying laptops now so it's just like yes I understand that like every time they do something like this they're going to shut people out like if you were hoping for an update to the $500 Mac mini I understand that that's frustrating that they would then pushes to be pro but I think that what they're trying to do is they're trying to get people to buy laptops now.

00:28:44   What they're trying to do and what they would be doing with this machine is actually making it fit more people by making it a more capable machine it will fit more people's use cases even though it may shut out others.

00:28:57   Yeah and the other argument would be that there the other rumor here of a more affordable laptop with a new design is on the other side of that would be a $500 laptop but it would that that's on the other side of this too which is that's a more likely broad appeal device.

00:29:15   The other thing is could Apple make a cheap enclosure thingy sure they could but it's Apple right like part of Apple being Apple is that they want their profit margin and they want that they don't want to make something that's perceived as a cheap product and so like the Intel NUC that I've got.

00:29:33   You know it it cost me a fraction of what the same specs would cost actually I did the math speaking math it cost a fraction of what the Mac mini currently available would cost with similar specs and that's the you know 4 year old model basically.

00:29:51   So there's obviously Apple's going to make something that is nicer it's also plastic and stuff like Apple would make a nicer computer than that for sure and they build in their profit margin that that's just how they that's that's Apple so there is occasionally I get especially people who are kind of tangential to the the Apple world complaints about like Apple stuff too expensive and it's like.

00:30:13   That is been baked into Apple for a long time that Apple doesn't make Apple's not going to make a $300 laptop they're just not like they're just never going to do that they do make an iPad that is priced down there but a $300 Mac laptop is just not it's not a market they've ever been in and and and they're never going to be in it and that's just sort of a fundamental of of Apple.

00:30:36   So I think I think you're right though like desktops are more of a niche product now there they have very niche uses I actually think that's an argument for the for the Mac mini rather than against it in that like it is a place where having a utilitarian desktop computer box.

00:30:58   Is actually good I this is my argument for the Mac mini all along if you lean into the niche ness you can produce a more interesting product exactly right and those people love it and it and it is a release valve it is this escape hatch for the Mac which is like if you don't want to use any of our other Max if none of them work in the context where you need a Mac.

00:31:19   Mac mini just pick it up it's little stick it wherever attach whatever you want to it.

00:31:27   Going back to the report the Bloomberg report the new laptop will look similar to the current MacBook Air but will include thinner bezels around the screen the display which will remain about 13 inches will be a higher resolution retina version the Apple uses on other products.

00:31:43   What is this laptop Jason what is it.

00:31:47   It's look well okay so first off will look similar to the current MacBook Air there's been a lot of criminal ology about that a lot of tea leaf reading about what is it laptops look the same fundamental basis and somebody said well that's it it's like oh you mean it will be an aluminum laptop with an Apple logo on it wow I am shocked knock me over with a feather so.

00:32:08   Some of the criminal ology is also like why did German put this in here and why didn't he why was he more specific and the answer is to me readily apparent which is the person who told German this German source said yeah basically you know it looks like a MacBook Air or something like that or because they don't know.

00:32:26   More details and so you end up with that kind of a game of telephone where it you vague it up because you don't have the detail and and so I think it's kind of a meaningless thing.

00:32:37   I don't think it means it's a MacBook Air I think it means it's going to look like an Apple laptop that probably means that it's going to be aluminum and not plastic which is again not a shocker if that's the case.

00:32:48   I think it's really just set up there to say that the air has those big bezels and that this one's not going to have that which I would I would assume that any modern laptop even a one targeted at a lower price point from Apple is going to have the kind of.

00:33:04   Edge to edge with the pain of glass that design that they have on every other laptop for a very long time and not the silver frame that was on the air like that that's a very old design I always liked it because I always felt like it was less

00:33:18   Glary than the big pain of glass but but it started to feel like your computer is a CRT I guess that's what the MacBook Air looks like to me huge bezel low quality screen.

00:33:31   Yeah bezels are are are out. Oh yes, they're out like nobody wants them in it's they're unfashionable. So of course they're going to be thinner bezels and the bezels will be hidden behind that continuous sheet of glass. I think that's almost a given.

00:33:49   So I think you know, I think the idea here is that the as Gruber and I talked about a little bit and we've talked about on this show a lot that the MacBook was maybe originally intended or the MacBook escape or both intended to be air like and neither of them can come close to its price.

00:34:07   And that may be on purpose and it I think some of it is accidental. I think maybe they thought it would be lower in price and it didn't get there. So this sounds like they're making a product that is specifically designed to replace the MacBook Air, which is only holding on because they can sell it in 9.99.

00:34:27   So I think this is I think literally this is the we want to sell a laptop for 8.99 or 999. What's it going to be and maybe it's a redesigned and sort of D contented MacBook escape or maybe it's something new.

00:34:45   I don't think it's the I mean it the MacBook is 12 and this is going to be 13.3. So I think it's more likely that it's either a brand new design or it's taking the MacBook escape and basically remixing it so that they can actually get it down to 999.

00:35:02   Because I think they want they want a modern computer with modern parts that's 999 and the air isn't it and if they have to suck it up a little bit in terms of their margin for a little while. I think maybe they'll do that.

00:35:16   But I think that so I think that's what this is. This is literally them saying we can't keep doing the air. We need to make a product. What product can we make? What laptop can we make for 999 and sell it and that's what this is.

00:35:27   What do they call it? Yeah, I mean it's a it's a mess very clearly the MacBook was supposed to be the name and it was simplified this all and MacBook and MacBook Pro and and and that brings a level of discipline to the naming like with the iPad.

00:35:40   It's like I think welcome. I think that's what Apple wants to do except what do they do now? I think they may still call it MacBook. I think it may just be this is the 13 inch MacBook and then there's the 12 inch MacBook that is a little more expensive.

00:35:51   Maybe maybe not but it's thin and light and this one is going to be heftier still like 3 pounds, right? It's not going to be 2 pounds, but it'll probably be 3 pounds and a little cheaper.

00:36:02   It would be super interesting to instead of changing the price by screen size. They change it by something else, right? Because Apple product lines are you have your product line and then you have the same model and it either has some internal configurations that are different

00:36:20   or it is different screen sizes in the line that affect the change right wouldn't it would be super interesting to be like here are two products.

00:36:30   They have different internals in the same size screen, but the physical body is different in some way. Here is the price difference because that seems like a really interesting way in both good and weird ways to display a product decision to the customer.

00:36:46   Well, I think I think though this rumor is that this is a 13.3 and so I think I think what we're going to get is we're going to get the MacBook at 12 this at 13.3 and then the MacBook Pro also has a 13.3 but they won't call this thing MacBook Pro.

00:37:00   They'll call it something else and I again the more I think about it the more I think that the MacBook escape is gone or turned into this product a hundred percent because they didn't update it right and and what Gruber pointed out that I think is interesting is, you know, back in the day the MacBook

00:37:14   Air came out and it was it was like 1700 bucks. It was it was not the cheap laptop and you had this you don't the smallest laptop doesn't have to be the cheapest laptop and I think that's actually the most likely scenario here is that they make a 13 inch laptop.

00:37:28   It's $9.99 and then the MacBook at 12 is gets an update but is still probably 10 or $11.99 right? It's not $9.99 and so yes the little MacBook that's underpowered but only weighs 2 pounds cost a little bit more than the entry-level 13 inch MacBook.

00:37:45   I think that's okay. I think that it's clear why that thing cost more is because it's it's little and cute and super thin and that's the reason that you pay a little bit more for it. I don't believe that everything has to be about the like the smaller the screen size the less the value of the laptop.

00:38:01   So I think that's the I think that's the scenario and and you asked about the name. I just I think the simplest thing to do is to just say we have a new MacBook today. It's a 13.3 MacBook and that they still also we also updated the 12 inch MacBook and isn't it great too and there you go.

00:38:16   You got MacBook with two models 12 and 13 and MacBook Pro with two models 13 and 15 good simple.

00:38:23   I want to ask you the like the question on everybody's lips right the keyboard. What is it? What do they do?

00:38:31   I think it depends on what this product is if this product is a remade MacBook escape presumably it'll just keep a lot of the features of the escape including the keyboard if it really is sort of let's throw that design away and do something new and and this is something that ATP went into last week, you know.

00:38:49   Because Marcos point on ATP and I think it's a very good one is there are lots of decisions you can make to opt for the cheaper whatever no white color gamut. No true tone display.

00:38:59   Is there a cheaper keyboard because his thesis is that other keyboard styles are going to be cheaper to make like literally cheaper to make and cheaper to support than the butterfly keyboard.

00:39:10   Maybe so maybe will I think it's coin flip or more accurately. I think it's did it get redesigned or not if this is a kind of version of a an existing system like the MacBook escape.

00:39:21   I think that keyboard is going to just be the keyboard that we just saw introduced in the in the MacBook pros.

00:39:28   It would be if it's a new design then it's possibly a new design that is hinting at Apple's future design directions at which point it might be a new keyboard or or a more familiar keyboard like the Magic Keyboard style keyboard.

00:39:42   But if I again if I was a betting man, I would probably say it's more likely to be the same keyboard that we just saw that's going to be really interesting to see how that plays out.

00:39:55   You know, it's like the villain of the Macintosh is that keyboard.

00:40:00   It will be interesting to see if it creeps into this product as well. And I'll ask you to last last two questions actually on this.

00:40:08   What ports do you expect to stick around on a laptop and we kind of went through it with the Mac Mini right like that because it's a desktop machine because it has it will just by design have more space right that the service area that you would probably expect it to be like the iMacs are right.

00:40:24   Like a mix of USBs. Do you think that a new laptop would have less than the MacBook Air?

00:40:33   Well, so what the MacBook Air has is a magsafe a mini DisplayPort Thunderbolt and two USBs and an SD card slot right magsafe is got to go no matter what right.

00:40:48   I feel like that's the obvious one. Unless I would say unless Apple this is a redesign laptop. I think there's a wild card here, which is this is a redesign laptop that's actually auguring all the changes Apple is going to make down the road to their laptops right and it has a new version of something which is akin to a magsafe that will eventually be everywhere.

00:41:07   I think it's less likely on a product that you're targeting to be cheap, but it could happen could happen right if they're designing a new way to do power or a new connector or something like that and they've got it ready to go and this is the first new laptop body that they've released in a few years.

00:41:23   Then maybe we would see it but it seems less likely which is why I think the most likely thing is going to be like the MacBook escape is going to have two USB C.

00:41:30   That's it. I think that's the most likely thing I would love it to have a USB A and a USB C or two USB C and a USB A something like that where you can you could power it with USB C and still have a couple of ports and a headphone jack which I'm hoping they will not like there's so many uses for that especially in education settings like keep the headphone jack come on.

00:41:50   So yeah, but I that's what I would prefer. I would prefer to us USB C and USB A or even one USB C and one USB A but if I had to bet I would bet that we're all wish casting by saying that and that the reality will be two USB C.

00:42:07   I know it would be a little bit disappointing considering where this product would most likely be used right it would say we're not at and it's replacing the air which means now it's every whole new suburban region has been annexed into dongle town.

00:42:22   Yeah, the dongle town's growth is just out of control and here they go they've taken over a whole other little town outside of the outskirts of town and they made a part of dongle town.

00:42:37   Nobody in who's buying MacBook Airs now has had to deal with these dongles none of them have had to do it it's all the familiar ports so if this doesn't do that then that will be you know yet another portion of the market that's going to have to deal with adapting stuff and all of that but you know what doesn't mean Apple won't do it.

00:42:57   Last question for you. When do you think we'll see this?

00:43:00   Well, I mean we got the rumors here so I think it's I think it'll get announced September or October depending on if there's a second event.

00:43:08   That's more I'm asking you do you think that these get included in the iPhone event or do they get their own event?

00:43:14   I don't know I mean if I were Apple I think there's too much to go in that event and that you can roll out Macs at a later time and you don't even necessarily need an event or you can do a smaller event and say now now the focus is the Mac which is a hint to all those people who love the iPhone that they don't even need to come to the event and you could do it there so yeah that would be my guess is that this is going to be one of those announced October ship November things but it's possible that it's an announced.

00:43:39   I think I could make it you know make an event on its own maybe share a little bit more sneaky details about the Mac Pro you know like make it a thing you know give an update right like that's where we get the update could be its own event.

00:43:52   I hope they do I hope that they feel the Mac could deserve an event. I also think I also think it's possible that they are going to focus on the Apple Watch and the iPhone in September and leave the iPad and the Mac to talk about later.

00:44:07   Like it really is just like how packed do they want that event to be because they could fill two hours with iOS rollout the iPhone watch OS rollout and the new Apple Watch and leave the rest of it for another event.

00:44:20   They have so much to announce. Do you want to have all of it in the shadow of the iPhone the Apple Watch is an iPhone accessory so it fits there.

00:44:28   So I mean I could make that case I can make the case that they need two events and one of them is iPad and Mac and the other is just iPhone because everybody cares about that.

00:44:37   The counter argument is everybody cares about the iPhone so if you care about your product put it under the iPhone spotlight because the closer it is to the iPhone the more people are going to know about it.

00:44:45   We may be approaching draft territory but I would actually bet that they do all iOS together and don't even mention Mojave in the September event and just then wrap that all up.

00:44:58   Put it on the draft board and we'll see what happens.

00:45:00   We'll see. Alright let's take a break and we'll talk about these iPhone 10 rumors that came out today as well.

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00:47:37   So the second German Woo collaboration of the episode we're talking about today this time it's about the iOS device lineup for September.

00:47:46   Jason Snell let me rapid fire the information that we got today.

00:47:51   Three phones with edge to edge screens 6.5 inch OLED which will allow you to view content side by side in apps like mail and calendar.

00:47:59   This is the return of the iPhone plus landscape mode right which wasn't in the 10.

00:48:04   The almost useless landscape mode. Really I want split view I don't know why they can't find a way to just do that I know it's super small but just make it happen.

00:48:13   5.8 inch OLED phone which is effectively the iPhone 10 S has a faster processor and better camera and then the 6.1 inch LCD will come in multiple colors with aluminium edges not stainless steel.

00:48:27   This is effectively the German confirmation of the rumors that have been circulating for the last couple of months right.

00:48:34   Three devices their sizes the fact that one of them has colors got a plus one a regular one the internals are basically S revisions but you get the big one right so that's that's kind of like the news that will come out right as well as having a cheaper version of the iPhone 10 design.

00:48:51   Yeah I keep thinking about what happens to the iPhone 8 because here's the thing we all we talk about this with the iPhone SE it's also true of the iPhone 8 like not the iPhone 8 is a good product and I think it sells very well and it is the size of the iPhone 7 and 6S and 6.

00:49:16   And what's missing in all of these reports is what happens to that phone size the iPhone 10 is not much larger and maybe that's the answer is like if you want a smaller ish phone you just got to get the iPhone 10 and deal with it deal with it being slightly larger or retreat to the iPhone SE.

00:49:32   It seems kind of weird that there's no mainstream phone that's the size of the 8 does that make sense like I'm troubled by the idea that there's a 6.1 inch screen that's rumored as this iPhone 9 or whatever they want to call it but like that's a plus phone that is not the size of a standard what we think of as a standard iPhone and even the iPhone 10 is slightly larger although

00:50:01   I've come to accept it as being the size of an iPhone so that that part really baffles me so I've got that out there too which is like are they got literally going to be like also the iPhone 8 is great or they going to say and there's also an 8S or we've upgraded the internals in the 8.

00:50:18   But there's also a 9 and a 10 and a 10 plus I don't it's it's there's a missing piece here and I would be very surprised if they literally said if you like the standard design that's been on the iPhone for the last five years and want a new model.

00:50:33   We don't have one for you, but that's what these rumors say is that there's no fourth phone or fifth phone with the SE.

00:50:40   There's just these three and they are missing a piece there.

00:50:46   So we were talking about this on connected last week. Steve Trout and Smith and Guillermo Rambo found some evidence that suggests that there will be a phone which is being referred to in code as the T500 which is an A10 CPU and the same screen resolution and RAM of the iPhone 7.

00:51:04   So could this be some kind of 5C like device or is it the SE 2 or something like that but there seems to be another piece.

00:51:15   It could be that the SE branding and this will be very sad for people who like the small size of the SE.

00:51:20   It could be that the SE branding is going to be moved to the successor to the iPhone 8 and use the iPhone 6, 7, 8 design and that's the new SE.

00:51:32   And that would sure explain why there hasn't been another iPhone SE right because maybe what they're trying to establish is that SE doesn't mean small it means we're keeping around an old design for a little bit longer for cheaper.

00:51:44   And that would be harder to uncover in supply chain rumors at this point.

00:51:51   Well yeah, it literally looks like more iPhone 8s rolling off the line but they're actually going to be put in a different box.

00:51:58   It would be harder to tell right if they're using a lot of the same parts then it would be harder to tell whereas there's these two new phones with pretty new parts.

00:52:07   I think it's interesting. I think it's worth the other great mystery. So of course you're talking about this new LCD 6.1 inch phone and this new 6.5 inch OLED screen phone.

00:52:18   So of course what I want to talk about is the phone that's not listed and then the next thing I want to talk about is the phone that's the least interesting of these which is the iPhone X right?

00:52:28   But I think that's another question here which is, is it the iPhone XS? Is it the iPhone X 2018 model updated but it's still called iPhone X which would be very interesting because that would be Apple pivoting, which is what Gruber and I talked about a lot,

00:52:47   pivoting away from the iterations of numbers. Apple's done it before. They get to the Roman numeral X and they're like, "We can stop here. This is good. This is a position of stability. We can stay here for a while and we don't have to go up to iPhone 16. We don't want to do that."

00:53:03   So that's a question for me. And the other question for me is price because one thing you could do rather than really pushing the specs on the iPhone X is drop the price and say, "Well, you were resistant to the iPhone X last year at $999 but now it's $899 and the new model is $999," or something like that.

00:53:21   I kind of don't see them doing that but it is a possibility.

00:53:25   No, because the LCD one is the price sensitive, right? They're bringing in a $600 6.1 inch.

00:53:30   Yeah, but it's big. That's why there's a missing piece here because it's big. So if you're somebody who's got an iPhone 7 or an iPhone 6S and you just want a new iPhone, what do you buy?

00:53:42   And it's like, well, you've got this huge phone that's cheaper, that's $899, which is not cheap but cheaper. You've got this phone that's more or less the size of what you expect. It's $999.

00:53:54   And that's why I have that question about what happens to those people. What are they buying? Are they just told to buy the iPhone 8 or is there an update of some sort to the iPhone 8? I don't know.

00:54:02   So I think it's fascinating, right? Because we talked, when these rumors came out about the iPhone X being released alongside what turned out to be the iPhone 8 last year, a lot of the conversation and certainly a lot of what I talked about was this idea that Apple was taking a gamble by having weird stuff in the iPhone line and kind of expanding it.

00:54:23   Well, the gamble worked. Apple's sales were great and they sold a lot more at a higher price because the iPhone X cost more. And this too is a gamble, what they're doing here. But it seems like they've hit upon this idea that they should make more kinds of iPhone at more price points, including some that are very high.

00:54:42   And that people want iPhones and will spend money on them. Which is kind of a no-brainer on one level, but it is risky because anytime you take a chance with the iPhone, you're risking your business because it's the most important part of Apple's business.

00:54:55   I feel like all of the risks have some element of payoff that they've done because if you increase the price, you don't need to sell as many.

00:55:04   Well, that's why I think the 10+ is just a no-brainer of a product because it's going to be more expensive.

00:55:10   It's going to be like $1,100, $1,200 to start.

00:55:12   And it's going to have a beautiful, huge screen and people will buy it. And it doesn't need to be the flagship. It's not. It's the high-end, huge, niche phone. But people will buy it. It will push the average selling price of the iPhone up even higher because if you want that phone, Myke Hurley, you know you want that phone.

00:55:29   Oh boy, I'm salivating for it.

00:55:31   We'll buy it, right? So why not make that phone? But it doesn't have to be the flagship. The 10 is really the flagship. And I think that's what we're seeing here is that the 10 is the flagship and then there will be some other phones around it.

00:55:45   But part of the tricky transition here is how do you transition away from the 6, 7, 8 as the flagship?

00:55:52   And is that an SE model that is sort of like we're going to hold it in place, it's got new internals, but it's basically what the 8 was and we'll keep selling that.

00:56:02   And then we've also got, you know, and there's no 8+, right? There's just this other 6.1 LCD screen phone.

00:56:12   And that's the, that's with whatever they call that. I don't even know what they call that. Maybe the 9.

00:56:18   Yeah.

00:56:19   I've been thinking about it, so I think I spoke, I spoke about it somewhere else, I don't remember, but I think, I don't know what they're going to do with the 10.

00:56:26   S and plus, I don't know if they'll do that. They might come up with something else, right? But I think they'll both be like Roman numeral X something, right? You know, but the 6.1 inch LCD, I think will be called the 9 because this was the phone that actually bridges the gap between the old and new.

00:56:44   Right, sure.

00:56:45   And they skipped it. As they said, right, this is two years in the future, this phone or whatever, right? And because this phone in the middle was called the 9 and they would have gotten there, you know, wink, wink, but they just, you know, they never did, right? They decided to skip straight to 10.

00:56:59   Right.

00:57:00   So I think this will be called the 9. That's the only one that I feel pretty sure on with naming. Outside of that, I don't really know what they're going to go with.

00:57:07   And I still feel pretty strongly that the right thing for them to do, I'm not saying that this is, I'm predicting this is going to happen, but to me, the obvious choice is to just get off the carousel and say, iPhone 10, iPhone 10 plus.

00:57:22   And the iPhone 10 is like this year's iPhone 10. We have a new iPhone 10. It's better than last year's iPhone 10. And just, they can do that. They don't have to call it something else.

00:57:31   Because iPhone 10s is like the Xs. Is it plural? Is it possessive? Is it, you know, an addition? It's like, no, it's just the iPhone 10. It's the new iPhone 10. They can do it.

00:57:39   Let me pose what I consider the issue is with this, right? I think a lot of the time we point at the other product lines and be like, well, look, the iPad, they don't change the name of anymore.

00:57:50   You know, the iPad Pro or whatever, they don't do it with the Mac, with the MacBook. All of those products, the products that keep just the same name of a different year, they are primarily sold majorly by Apple themselves, right?

00:58:03   Like in their own stores, with their own marketing and everything else around it, where the iPhone is sold in very large quantities by third parties without people that are like super well trained.

00:58:15   There's more kind of issues that can arise over having complicated naming. And I think one of the reasons that you iterate the iPhone name every year is because people buy them every year.

00:58:27   There's a new one every year. People buy them every year. And it's so much easier to go into a carrier store and see, right, this is the new one or they can point to the new one.

00:58:36   Like it requires more information to be known and things to be explained with the iPhone than with the other products.

00:58:46   I hear what you're saying. And yet I just don't think it's as big of an issue. Phones aren't being bought every year as much as they used to, is part of it.

00:58:54   They've got a lot of investment in the iPhone 10 branding, I think at this point that they may want to ride a little bit longer. And I just think they can get away with it.

00:59:03   I personally hope that they do give it a new name just because as a person who speaks about this stuff for a living, it gets really difficult when they don't rename them. Right?

00:59:13   I just don't think it's that bad. It's this year's iPhone 10. Last year's iPhone 10, this year's iPhone 10. I think it's different, but I don't think it's a problem. And I think the iPhone can bear it.

00:59:23   And in a year where, honestly, in a year where the iPhone 10 isn't going to change that much, apparently, it's just going to get some upgraded internals, but it was already ahead of the curve.

00:59:33   I think maybe that's the argument here is that it's still the iPhone 10. It's still great. It's a little bit better, but it's still great.

00:59:43   I think that that's the right decision because I do think they have to hop off of the constant numbering thing. And I don't think, once you choose a Roman numeral, which is a letter, it's not just 10, it's the letter X.

00:59:58   And then to do an S, are they going to take the letter off and make it a 10S or something? XS doesn't work. They already kind of eliminated that angle for them.

01:00:09   And I think plus just makes sense for the big phone. 10 plus, like X plus. Everybody understands what that means.

01:00:16   It would be kind of fun to use the plus sign. An X and just the plus sign. That might look quite cool.

01:00:23   I don't know. As I said to Gruber, I'm kind of glad I'm not in the room about this stuff.

01:00:32   Well, here's the thing though, Jason. You say that.

01:00:34   These are judgment calls.

01:00:36   But we love talking about it.

01:00:38   But this is billions, hundreds of billions of dollars of a product.

01:00:42   I would like to say I would very, very much like to be in the room making the decision.

01:00:46   Well, okay. Oh, now I don't think I would want to make the decision. I mean, you would be supported by a lot of data.

01:00:53   But like these are, I guess my point is this is why they pay these people a lot of money to make these decisions.

01:00:58   Because they're super important and the path forward is not clear.

01:01:03   No, no. Whatever you do, you have no idea what it's going to do.

01:01:07   Keeping the name, the iPhone X, could result in fewer sales than your new model.

01:01:12   You have no idea at that point. You can take really educated guesses.

01:01:16   But any time you make a big change, you gamble with that.

01:01:21   Which is probably why they stuck on the numbering train for as long as they did.

01:01:24   Because you make a gamble if you want to change it.

01:01:27   So the other thing here is that we should keep these two things separate.

01:01:30   Because the first gamble is in product roadmap.

01:01:34   The first gamble is we're going to do two phones in 2017.

01:01:37   We're going to have this super high-end thing that we've been working on for years and that we thought would be in 2016 and it didn't happen.

01:01:43   But in 2017 we're going to get it. And we're still going to sell a continuation of the other line.

01:01:47   And that's what we're going to do for 2017.

01:01:50   You're like, wow, okay. And then for 2018, we've got even more phones that we're going to do in 2018.

01:01:54   So first off, that is risky and that's a gamble and that's why they get paid the big bucks.

01:02:01   And then there's the marketing of it, which is what do you call them?

01:02:04   And those are separate decisions, basically. It's like, what do you call them? How do you price them?

01:02:08   And those are hard decisions too. So this is not -- I mean, I find it fascinating.

01:02:12   Obviously you and I find it fascinating because we talk about it all the time.

01:02:15   Because we are severely in the weeds. I said I was going to blow through this.

01:02:19   We haven't even gotten past the iPhone yet.

01:02:22   What's great about it is there is no -- as far as I can tell, there is no right, clear right answer here.

01:02:30   You got to kind of close one eye and throw a dart. Take your best shot. Take your best shot and see what happens.

01:02:37   And Phil Schiller and his people have done that. And we will know in a couple of weeks what they chose.

01:02:43   But it's fascinating to think about all their options and what a hard decision it is in a lot of ways.

01:02:48   So more from the report. The Apple Watch is going edge to edge and will be compatible with existing straps.

01:02:53   I'm excited about this idea because this is what I wanted to see, right?

01:02:56   Some visual design, some hardware change to the Apple Watch's design.

01:03:02   I'm keen to see what that actually ends up resulting in, right? Is the screen bigger?

01:03:07   Is it just bigger? Is it thinner? Is it thicker? What does it look like?

01:03:11   So I'm pleased to see that they're going to finally make a change to the visual design of the Apple Watch.

01:03:17   But it will be different, right? Like even if you just make the screen bigger, you can still keep the overall design the same.

01:03:24   But making the screen bigger, that is a consumer-focused design change, where all the other design changes have been for their benefit in making it thicker.

01:03:32   But what I'm going to say is that it's an invisible design change.

01:03:37   Because if you're removing the black edges under the glass, the glass will still be the same.

01:03:43   Right, so you get a user benefit out of it is what I mean.

01:03:47   There will be more pixels on that screen, sure. That is the lightest of hardware redesigns, but yes.

01:03:53   Yeah, but in the same time, we're about to talk about the iPad Pros and we're all salivating for smaller bezels, right?

01:03:58   So there can be benefits to it. It feels like a strange thing with the Apple Watch.

01:04:03   Because I don't think people are saying, "Oh, I really want a bigger screen."

01:04:07   But at least it is a user-focused design change, which I am interested to see.

01:04:13   I'm keen to see what else this could manifest in.

01:04:17   But yeah, compatible with existing straps is a big thing.

01:04:21   Apple need to keep that on that train for a long time, I think.

01:04:25   I think that is going to be something that when they do change will really upset a lot of people.

01:04:29   So they need to try and stay away from that as much as they possibly can, I think.

01:04:33   New iPad Pros. So two iPad Pros. One is around 11 inches and one is around 12.9 inches, according to Gorman and Wu.

01:04:41   Now this is interesting to me because what this says is you take two current iPad Pros.

01:04:46   On the smaller one, it seems like they are keeping the physical size the same and expanding the screen size again.

01:04:54   They did that the first time. Mostly the same size, right? The actual physical size, but they made the screen bigger.

01:05:00   And that seems like they're doing it again. Making the screen bigger but keeping the physical size probably around the same.

01:05:06   And then with the larger iPad Pro, it seems like what they're doing is keeping the screen size the same, but making it physically smaller with their bezel reduction.

01:05:15   It's a very interesting choice there. I think, for me, they are the two exact choices I want, but it's interesting that they went that way.

01:05:25   Yeah, I think it makes sense to me. They're trying to differentiate the iPad Pro from the other iPad.

01:05:32   More productivity comes with more screen space. So pushing the smaller model up and then the 12.9 is like, "Alright, that's enough screen space. Let's get it smaller."

01:05:42   Because the problem, as you and I both know, the problem with the iPad 12.9 is it's too big. The screen is beautiful, but it's too big.

01:05:48   Too big, too heavy.

01:05:49   It's unwieldy because of the surface area of that screen, so get the bezels down. That's going to be great. That's going to make that even greater.

01:05:58   And if you think they sound close, well, that's basically the same difference between the laptops. Like 13 and 15, 11 and 13. It's effectively the same.

01:06:06   MacBook Air, there was an 11 and a 13. It's not that far off from that. I wonder about the Face ID stuff only because there is the trepidation.

01:06:19   I feel like we've got to give it to Apple, that Apple's going to do the right thing here. But that means they need to get orientation agnostic Touch ID or Face ID work.

01:06:29   And convince that they've solved it.

01:06:30   They've got to have. Because there's no way they're going to say, "Please hold your iPad upright in order to unlock it." There's no way. That would be so bad.

01:06:38   I believe that a second generation Face ID with orientation agnosticism will come to all of the products. So the two expensive iPhones will get it and the iPad Pros will get it.

01:06:50   It may be tied to the CPU, like the A12, whatever. But I believe that it would be madness to ship this product. I was going to say, "Eat my hat." I don't have a hat and I don't want to eat it anyway.

01:07:03   So I would be extremely surprised to see that. Because I feel like you don't need to do that. You don't need Face ID on the iPad yet.

01:07:13   You could do another revision with smaller bezels and a home button still. You could still find a way to do it.

01:07:20   One of the defining characteristics of the iPad Pro is the keyboard. It's the first product that Apple has built on iOS that Apple built a keyboard for.

01:07:29   And keyboards are fundamentally horizontal. So this goes back to my complaints about the iPad in general.

01:07:39   I know sometimes people use iPads in portrait vertical. I use them that way too, but I mostly use them in horizontal.

01:07:46   And I think it's actually a little silly that the iPad is not fundamentally horizontal, that the Apple logo when you start it up, that the Apple logo on the back are not horizontal, that they're vertical.

01:07:57   I think that's the primary orientation of an iPad Pro because of, among other things, that keyboard. And because of the way that multitasking is built, where it's all adding things on the sides.

01:08:10   You can multitask in vertical. It's not great. So, of course, they need to go the other direction. They need Face ID to work both orientations for this thing, for sure.

01:08:23   But also, any idea that portrait is dominant on the iPad Pro, I think it's a mistake. I think it's the wrong approach to that product.

01:08:30   I'm sure you've seen the whole potential concern and trepidation about where the smart keyboard is going to fit.

01:08:37   It looks like the smart connector has maybe moved. Maybe it looks like it's going to be portrait, which I just don't buy any of that.

01:08:44   I think there's still a smart connector on the side. I saw somebody, maybe even Marco Arment, suggest that I wonder if that other item that's down by the dock connector is something like a pencil attachment?

01:08:56   Yeah, maybe. I don't think that that's right. But, yeah, I understand the thinking.

01:09:01   That makes more sense to me than that's the smart keyboard connector in a really weird place where every smart keyboard has to cover the entire back of the iPad for it to work. Unless, and here's the big unless, unless Apple blows us away by doing a full-on laptop-style shell to attach to the iPad Pro, where you could put it in your lap and tilt it and all of those things.

01:09:25   Oh, mama. That's what I want.

01:09:26   Wouldn't that be something?

01:09:27   Yeah. Wouldn't that be something? Wouldn't that be wonderful? We'll talk about that in a minute.

01:09:31   That would be a thing.

01:09:32   The last thing, no new iPad mini specifically called out. For those of you that think that there might be one, no, there will not be one.

01:09:38   Yep. RIP.

01:09:40   Today's show is brought to you by Eero, the company who built the Wi-Fi system that you want in your home because it's the one they wanted in their own. A fast, reliable connection in every room, even all the way out to the backyard.

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01:10:49   Yeah, even the little smart light bulbs like the periphery of the house now get the Wi-Fi that they need.

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01:11:30   Keyboard time! Keyboard time!

01:11:33   Alright, so first off, we want to give a quick review of the Brydge Keyboard version 2.

01:11:40   So you wrote a great review about this product on 6 colors and the fine folk over at Brydge, they actually sent me one of these.

01:11:47   They didn't send me a review unit, they just kind of sent me it because they had heard about the problems I had with the first one.

01:11:53   So after our special iPad episode, they got in touch and they said we have a new version coming out, we'd like to send you it.

01:11:59   So they sent me it, so I got it for free, but I wanted to talk about my experience and I know you have the same.

01:12:05   I think from series one, series one had tons of problems.

01:12:09   Bluetooth issues, it had connection issues, I couldn't get mine to work.

01:12:13   Jason had multiple units, he finally got one to work.

01:12:16   The series two version that we both got categorically solved the problems.

01:12:22   It connects easily, stays connected, no drop keys.

01:12:25   It's the product that I always wanted it to be, it has no issues like that, right?

01:12:29   Like it works perfectly.

01:12:31   Yeah, yeah, I mean, I only got the one.

01:12:36   The one worked right out of the box, so I'm going to assume that they got their, it is definitely a new keyboard, the mechanism is a little bit different.

01:12:46   The lighting, like you've got the lights like a little dot on the power key now that's going to give you the information about how much charge it's gotten.

01:12:53   Is it on or is it off?

01:12:55   But it is, yeah, it's everything that the first version should have been and the first version was already one that it was my choice as my travel keyboard for my iPad.

01:13:06   But this is, it seems to address the issues with the first one and that's really great.

01:13:14   Here's something I did. I swear to you, it's exactly how it worked, right?

01:13:17   I turned the thing on, connected with Bluetooth, put my iPad, my top-of-the-inch iPad into the hinge, right? I put it in so it was in there.

01:13:26   I typed two keys before I reached for a trackpad.

01:13:29   I immediately reached for the trackpad that doesn't exist, right?

01:13:33   Because it just became a laptop as soon as I did it.

01:13:37   You fooled yourself.

01:13:38   I fooled myself. The great thing about this product, right?

01:13:41   It is, it makes your iPad a laptop and that's what I love about it, right?

01:13:46   The keyboard feels great. Feels kind of like a magic keyboard, right?

01:13:49   It feels nicer to me than the butterfly switch keyboard. More travel, less noise. It's kind of what I'm looking for.

01:13:54   The adjustable hinge is unbelievable.

01:13:57   I am so sold on the idea of a laptop form factor for iOS because I can sit however I want.

01:14:04   I sometimes, I'll sit and it's on my lap and I'm just typing or I can sit with my knees up, basically fold it completely flat, right?

01:14:11   And just have it kind of laying on my legs and I can type if I want to. It is exactly what I am looking for.

01:14:17   I love the adjustable hinge, as we were saying earlier, right?

01:14:24   The idea of Apple making a product like this would be incredible too, right?

01:14:27   It works just how I want. It turns my iPad into a laptop.

01:14:31   Yes, it makes it significantly heavier, but my 12.9-inch iPad never leaves my home, right?

01:14:39   It makes the iPad less portable, but I use my iPad like how people use their laptops, right?

01:14:47   They have their laptop, they have it at home. That's what this does for my 12.9-inch iPad.

01:14:51   But it's so easy to take off that it's never an issue. You can just pop it out, pop it on, pop it out. It is really, really great.

01:14:59   Unlike a lot of these keyboard cases where you have to sort of snap it in and then it's completely kind of like it's in there because it's got to go all the way around it.

01:15:08   This one doesn't do that. This one's just got the hinge at the bottom with the clips.

01:15:12   You don't even pop the clips or anything like that. You literally just kind of stick it in and it goes in and then pull it out.

01:15:19   So, yes, it makes it a three-pound laptop, but you pull the iPad out and it's not anymore.

01:15:25   You can't do that with your Mac laptop. I travel with it. It's the same thing.

01:15:30   I travel with it, but I don't travel with a laptop. I can use it as a tablet or I can use it as a laptop.

01:15:35   And so that's why I do it.

01:15:38   So I have that thing where people give me the double take where they assume I'm using a Mac and then I touch the screen and they're like, "What just happened?"

01:15:45   I haven't fooled myself, although I will say the Brydge does make a keyboard for the Microsoft Surface that has a trackpad on it.

01:15:52   And I thought to myself, "Oh, man, if Apple did Bluetooth pointing device support at some point, even if it's just for text editing, I would love that too."

01:16:03   But it's all still out there. Who knows?

01:16:07   Also, speaking of the Surface, I saw a review today of the little Surface Mini or whatever it is.

01:16:13   Surface Go.

01:16:14   Surface Go, that's right. It's a little tiny one. It's adorable. I saw it when I went to the Microsoft Store. It's adorable.

01:16:19   It's underpowered, but super cute and tiny.

01:16:23   But again, it was one of those things where it's got a kickstand.

01:16:27   And the review I read even had a photo of the legs of the guy who was using it, and he's got a big line on his leg, on his skin, from where the kickstand dug into it.

01:16:38   This is the truth of these things is, can you use that kickstand? Can you use the setup with the smart keyboard on your lap?

01:16:46   You can, but it's not very stable, and I don't like it.

01:16:51   And I would by far prefer something else.

01:16:54   I really love this form factor. I think that they totally nailed this product this time around.

01:16:59   I'm really, really happy with it. I'm now using my iPad in it all the time.

01:17:05   When I'm not sitting down for long periods of time to write something, because I have it in that stand then, so it's nice for me ergonomically.

01:17:12   But whenever I'm just around the house, I'm surfing stuff, I'm just getting a little bit of work done or whatever, it's living like a laptop now.

01:17:19   And I really love it.

01:17:20   My only question is, is this an awkward time to release this product?

01:17:28   Yeah, it seems like these products are going away in a month or two, right?

01:17:32   Or it's changing significantly. I have no idea if this product's even going to fit anymore, right?

01:17:39   It could be completely different sizes. Will the bezels mean that it won't fit in the hinge properly? Will the hinge cover the bezels?

01:17:45   Or that the hinge will cover the screen, right?

01:17:47   Yeah, this is a really, I mean, Bridge, you really made a great product, but I don't know if this is the right time to have released it.

01:17:55   And I, it's...

01:17:57   It's great for the existing 12.9-inch iPad Pro market, and there are other people out there who are going to keep their iPad Pros for a while.

01:18:02   I would suggest that they look at this as an accessory for it. I'm still using my iPad from December of '15, right?

01:18:10   So, they have a long life, and that's great. But, in terms of new hardware, like, I sure hope that they, whatever Apple releases, that Bridge will be able to use their tech,

01:18:25   assuming that Apple doesn't, like, steal their lunch and make their own keyboard.

01:18:30   I hope Bridge finds a way to make the ergonomics of the new iPads work with this tech, because the next iPad Pro I buy, I'm going to want something like this for it.

01:18:44   It's going to actually be a major factor in my productivity. I'm going to be super sad when I buy a new iPad Pro, and there's going to be, presumably, at least a bit of a gap before there's a Bridge keyboard for it.

01:18:55   But, like, I want this functionality in my iPad Pro from now on. So, I hope that all the effort that they've done in building this new version of it, which is only on the 12.9 right now, so that's interesting.

01:19:08   I wonder if they just sort of are out of the old ones and they wanted to build this, but I hope they're, like, positioning themselves to do new versions for the new iPads as well.

01:19:18   But it is a question with the reduced bezels and all of that, I worry about the ergonomics of dropping something into the clips versus having to snap something in on the back, which I hate.

01:19:31   Like, I don't want to snap a special case on my iPad so that I can use it with a keyboard. That's not what I want, and that could be a downside of the new bezel-less iPad Pro design.

01:19:42   Should we talk about, as part of the Summer of Fun, our favorite keyboards of all time?

01:19:48   Let's do it. This may be it for the Summer of Fun, but we've got to go out with something wacky, because otherwise it wouldn't be fun.

01:19:53   Exactly. So, this actually came from an Ask Upgrade question from Upgrading and Jeff, and I thought, what a fun thing to do to match up with our keyboard review here.

01:20:05   So, do you want to go one each? You start?

01:20:08   Yeah, sure. The MacBook Air. I love the MacBook Air, and it's on the older MacBook Pros too, but that MacBook Air keyboard, you know, yes, all my time with mechanical keyboards, it does feel a little bit mushy.

01:20:21   A little bit, but you know, the fact is, I have written, I don't even know how many hundreds of thousands of words, maybe millions, maybe in the millions on that keyboard.

01:20:30   Probably in the millions on that keyboard. I love it. It has always worked for me. It's always been reliable. I've never had a keyboard failure on a MacBook Air in all the years.

01:20:40   So, MacBook Air, I think I have to pick number one.

01:20:44   I will pick my number one is the keyboard that I'm sitting right in front of, which is the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Keyboard.

01:20:50   The previous version, not the one with the Alcantara on it, you know, like that they sell now. So, I will include a link to the review of the man who told me to buy this, which was Marco Ammann.

01:21:03   I was having some problems with RSI. He said buy this keyboard, and this keyboard made me feel a lot better. Like, it works great. It's nice and clicky.

01:21:11   It does what I need when I'm sitting in front of it, but more than anything, it is a keyboard which helps me over long periods of time to keep my hands healthy. So, I really like this keyboard.

01:21:20   It does a great job for me, whilst also being a super weird thing to sit on your desk. I also love how weird it looks, right? Like, it is just a strange, strange keyboard, and I really like it.

01:21:31   So, my wife used to use the Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard, although now she just uses the MacBook Air. So, I guess she went from one of our picks to the other one. I can't use split keyboards because of the way I type. I can't do it, but I know people love the Microsoft keyboards.

01:21:49   For my second pick, I'm going to pick, and this is cheating, but I'm just going to do it because I don't care. I'm going to cheat.

01:21:56   You make the rules around here.

01:21:58   Yeah, exactly right, which is anything with Cherry Brown switches. So, I got into mechanical keyboards a few years ago. I bought the little clicky keyboard tester, which Jon tells a story on the talk show this weekend about how he got an email from the guy at WASD Keyboards, the person who runs it, saying, "We sold out. We usually sell a couple of keyboard testers, these little, like, six switches."

01:22:22   It's just like a gadget that you don't plug in or anything. You just can feel and hear what the different kinds of switches sound like. And we talked about it the last time I was on the talk show, and they, like, sold out of them.

01:22:34   They're like, "What happened?" And the answer was, "Sorry." We talked about it on the talk show.

01:22:40   But what I learned from that, because I had bought, just making a guess based on, like, internet, like, sound files and movies and stuff, a Cherry Blue switch keyboard, which was fun, but the Brown switches are actually the ones that I prefer.

01:22:56   And I've got a bunch now. I've got, like, three different keyboards with the Cherry Brown switches. I love them. That's the keyboard for me. And so, I was going to pick, like, my weird keyboard that is, god, what's it even? I can't even remember.

01:23:12   I have a Leopold keyboard, which has a very unusual key layout. I have a Vortex keyboard that I'm using now. So, I would say anything with Cherry Brown switches, and ideally, you know, no number pad, and ideally not even the page up, page down home area, but it has to have arrow keys.

01:23:32   So, I've created—so, the Vortex and the Leopold are both that. So, those two keyboards, but Cherry Brown switches, for sure.

01:23:39   I'm going to go way off the reserve here and pick the Razer Sinosa Chroma gaming keyboard. I absolutely adore my gaming keyboard for my PC. It feels so good. It is a mechanical keyboard. It feels great. I love the way it feels.

01:23:59   But I love the lights. The lights are ridiculous. They look so stupid, and I absolutely adore it. There are so many things you can make it do. You can make it, like, light up when you press a key, and then it ripples out from that key. You can have the lights on constantly and changing into different colors.

01:24:16   When we stream on the Twitch stream that me and Tiff do, if somebody gives us money, my keyboard lights up in specific colors. I love this keyboard so much. It feels great to use, and it's so ridiculous. And whenever anybody visits my house and they marvel at my gaming PC, I immediately turn it on and show them all the things the keyboard can do.

01:24:34   Everyone is really impressed by it. They love it, even though they feel like they shouldn't. That's why I love this keyboard. Even all of my friends, all of my Apple nerd friends who love things to be very specific, you would think on the face of it that this goat flies in the face of everything you like as an Apple user.

01:24:51   But when you see these keyboards and you see how fun they are, you're kind of like, "Oh, man. None of my stuff does that." And that's why I love this keyboard.

01:24:59   Yeah, that's cool. I have looked. Backlighting is not something I really need, although some of my keyboards have it and some of them don't. But the color, individually programmable backlighting is hilarious. So, good for you.

01:25:14   My last pick is going to be what I have just looked up as it is the Palm One portable keyboard for the Palm 3 and 7 and M100. If you remember the days of personal digital assistants, or PDAs.

01:25:35   This was a foldable keyboard. And I took a trip in 2000 to the UK for two weeks and wrote a trip diary. And I did it all with a Palm 3 with a couple AA batteries or AAA batteries in the back.

01:25:50   And this keyboard, which is a full-size keyboard with pretty decent key travel, actually. But it folded up in a couple of places, and you could fold it up into a little tiny thing that was kind of a little bigger than a wallet, but it snapped closed.

01:26:04   And so it was super light and super small. And so I could travel with this tiny device, smaller than an iPhone by a lot, actually, and this keyboard and write while I traveled.

01:26:17   And I think about that, like today the equivalent would be to travel with an iPhone and like maybe one of those kind of roll-up Bluetooth keyboards. They also have foldable Bluetooth keyboards.

01:26:27   And it would be something like that. That would be the equivalent of this. But it was, I love that thing. It was really awesome. And if I had use, if I ever was traveling where I absolutely had to minimize the amount of space that I was traveling and packing in, I would probably go on Amazon and find the closest analog I could to the Palm One keyboard.

01:26:48   And my last pick will be the smart keyboard for the iPad Pro, because the smart keyboard was what sold me on being all in on the iPad.

01:26:57   It's so good. It is. I mean, we're not joking when we say this. A bunch of us, I think Marco may say this too, but I like it better than the keyboard on the laptops.

01:27:07   It is way better. I mean, just, it is a way better keyboard. It feels so much nicer. The material covering just feels nice to use. It has a good clickiness and a good travel.

01:27:18   I was worried that the 12.9 was going to be the only one with good typing. And the original 9.7 iPad Pro, it was not bad. I was impressed. On the 10.5, it's great. You're not sacrificing typing ability by getting the smaller iPad Pro at this point. And it is really good.

01:27:37   But it was just that that keyboard sold me on the whole package. Right. The idea of the iPad as the device that I use it for now. It was that keyboard. And I love it. I think it's a fantastic keyboard. It does a great, great job for pretty much every use. Like it really is fantastic.

01:27:53   So that's our favorite keyboards. That is maybe the final Summer of Fun segment. Maybe the penultimate Summer of Fun segment. You'll know next week, I guess.

01:28:02   I do want to wrap up with two very quick #AskUpgrade questions because I don't want to do no Ask Upgrades today. So the first one comes from Brian. Brian says, "Similar to how YouTube Premium is a $10 a month service that makes YouTube a little bit better. What other free web service do you wish you could pay $10 a month to make a little bit better?"

01:28:24   You want to say it on three? One, two, three. Twitter. I want Twitter to give third party developers access to everything and I will pay them $10 a month to do it. If I could pay them $10 a month and it means they clean up their platform, even better.

01:28:41   So Twitter, this is us telling you, we will give you our $10 a month. Just make the service a little bit better. And the second question, last question today comes from Nick.

01:28:51   "The new Disney streaming service, do you think it will launch internationally immediately or do you think some of the stuff may be picked up outside of the US by services like Netflix as Star Trek Discovery was?"

01:29:03   I think they're going to roll it out. My gut feeling, and I don't know if they've even talked about it, is the goal of this service is for it to be international. They may roll it out first in the US, but I doubt severely that they will sell off any of the content in other markets because I think they want to be everywhere.

01:29:22   Because once they sell them off, you lose them in those markets for some period of time, if not forever. And I don't think they want to do that. It's possible they might sell them off to markets that they're not interested in or they don't think they'll be in soon.

01:29:38   But I have a hard time, unless somebody can find a statement by Bob Iger saying something different, like I imagine they will be trying to launch, even if they launch in the US, they're going to want to be US, Canada, UK at the very least.

01:29:55   Really, all the English language countries first off, and it would surprise me if they don't push into Europe and Asia fairly quickly thereafter, so why not just keep it all, keep the demand up? Because, you know, new Star Wars TV show, if you don't launch directly in Japan, you still get to launch when you do go to Japan with that Star Wars TV show, and it's not something that's been on Amazon or Netflix for the last two years.

01:30:22   I usually like the reason that there are mixed releases internationally at these services is rights issues, right? Like that seems to be the biggest problem. And I feel like Disney's own streaming service for Disney's own content is the one that is least likely to have rights issues.

01:30:38   Yeah, I think they've been planning this for a while too, right? So I think a lot of the contracts are expiring, and it might not all be there on day one in all markets, but I think that that's the idea is that they're taking this all inside, like they're making content for their own services.

01:30:52   That's their strategy. It's been their strategy for a while now. It's all starting to come to fruition. So yeah, I would imagine that they're going to be aggressive about rolling it out worldwide.

01:31:01   Thank you so much to our #AskUpgrade questioners. I have such a big backlog, I promise we're going to get to them. If you want to send in a question to close the show, the #AskUpgrade is the way that you do that.

01:31:14   If you want to find information and links for this week's episode, you can check in your podcast player of choice, or go to relay.fm/upgrade/208.

01:31:24   We are still in Relay FM membership time, there are still many fantastic member specials being posted. For example, if you want to hear what it sounds like for me and Brad to build a LEGO set that takes three and a half hours because Brad has the instructions and I have the pieces, you can do that by being a Relay FM member.

01:31:41   You can subscribe by going to relay.fm/membership, or you can hit the link in the show notes in this episode and you can give upgrades and money every month, but you'll get access to absolutely everything.

01:31:54   Or you can go to our membership page and you can take a look and maybe choose a different membership level you want to give. Whatever you give, thank you so much. And thank you so much if you signed up.

01:32:03   You can also listen to me and Dan Morin and Stephen Hackett and Micah Sargent talk about Apple software that should have been or was discontinued.

01:32:15   That is in a crossover episode called "Downwise" or is it "Clock Load"?

01:32:19   Yeah, or is it "Clock Load"? Who knows?

01:32:21   Whatever it is, this episode is worth listening to just for the madcap introduction, which I was nearly dying in laughter over.

01:32:28   Go to sixcolors.com for Jason's work. He's at the incomparable.com as well. @jasonell on Twitter, J-S-N-E-L-L-I-M@imike.

01:32:36   I-M-Y-K-E. Thanks to Smile, Inboard Technology and Eero for their support of this show. You can go to relay.fm/shows to find this show and many more. I'm sure there'll be something there that you'll love to listen to.

01:32:47   We'll be back next week. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snell.

01:32:51   Goodbye, everybody.

01:32:52   [Music]