204: Tap-to-Click Truther


00:00:00   [Intro]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 204. Today's show is brought to you by TextExpander, Pingdom, and GreenChef.

00:00:16   My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snow.

00:00:19   Welcome back, Myke Hurley.

00:00:21   Yes.

00:00:22   Although you were here last week.

00:00:23   Yes.

00:00:24   Through the miracle of recording technology.

00:00:26   Yeah, I guess for, you know, people were saying to me after last week's episode, "Oh, it's great to hear you back again."

00:00:31   Even though for Upgrade listeners, I was only gone for one episode, which is kind of funny.

00:00:35   But I have been gone from everything else. Basically, all of my other shows since the beginning of July,

00:00:41   I popped in for that one episode of Upgrade on July 10th, which now feels like a dream to me.

00:00:47   Like I'm not actually sure it ever really happened because I was in a little bit of a whirring whirlwind.

00:00:53   I just a couple of days ago got back from my honeymoon in Hawaii and I'm feeling good.

00:00:58   I'm happy to be here. But right now, nobody cares about that, Jason Snow, because it's time for our #SnailTalk question.

00:01:06   Today's question comes from Tom and Tom wants to know, "Mac OS trackpad scroll direction, natural? Do you use tap to click?"

00:01:14   We want to know about your trackpad habits here, Jason.

00:01:17   Oh boy.

00:01:18   Oh, are you going to out yourself as like a non-natural scrolling person or something?

00:01:24   Well, I'm trying to remember. So which one is natural, the one they changed it to or they changed it from?

00:01:30   Natural is like the iPhone. So it's what they changed it to. I think that was why they called it natural

00:01:35   because it's like all the touchscreen devices, right?

00:01:38   There's nothing more natural than an iPhone. You can go to Whole Foods and get like an organic, natural iPhone.

00:01:44   Yeah, natural grown from Trader Joe's or something.

00:01:47   Yeah, exactly right. Ah, Trader Joe's, good reference there. It sounds like somebody's been in California.

00:01:51   Somebody.

00:01:52   The answer is yes, natural. I adopted very quickly to natural. In fact, I was using a laptop the other day.

00:02:00   God, who was it? And I was appalled because it went the wrong direction. I was like, "What is happening?"

00:02:07   I pushed my finger up and the mouse goes down. No, no, no.

00:02:12   So I adopted natural scrolling very quickly and would never go back.

00:02:18   And in terms of tap to click because Tom also asked, "Do I do tap to click?" No, absolutely not.

00:02:27   I am an absolutist. I do not tap to click. I click to click because--

00:02:32   No, no, no. I don't know if you can say you're an absolutist. I think an absolutist wouldn't use natural scrolling.

00:02:37   No, I'm a natural scroller, but I'm a tap to click absolutist. I'm not a tap to click wizard. I'm a tap to click, that's a reference, absolutist.

00:02:46   It's too many false clicks when you do that. For whatever reason, apparently my finger comes up and down on the little trackpad surface or whatever enough.

00:03:00   And I use a magic trackpad at my desk, so I'm using a trackpad all the time. I used to use a trackball back in the day for a very long time.

00:03:06   And then when the magic trackpad came out, I realized that it had benefits. I had gotten used to the trackpad on laptops to the point where like--

00:03:14   And the gestures are very similar on a trackpad and a trackball, right? That's the idea. They're very similar.

00:03:20   And that was enough to get me over, and so now I've been on a trackpad ever since, and to this day I'm using a magic trackpad right now.

00:03:28   I'm a natural scroller and a tap to clicker. But I use both methods of clicking. Sometimes I tap and sometimes I give it a false press because there's no actual clicking happening anymore, you know?

00:03:39   So if you think about it, Jason, we're all tap to clicking. If you really think about it.

00:03:46   No, no.

00:03:48   Nothing's moving anymore.

00:03:50   The little vibrating thing moves when you put pressure on it, but if you just lay your finger on it--

00:03:55   Nothing's going down. There's no actual click happening. You're a push to click person now.

00:04:00   Are you a tap to click truther? Is that what you are now? Are you spreading the disinformation that everywhere--

00:04:05   When you think about it, man, we're all tap to click wizards now. Wow.

00:04:09   If you think about it.

00:04:10   No.

00:04:11   I've been on a vision quest these past three weeks, and I've come back to talk about the good news of push to click.

00:04:17   I do have silent clicking turned on, by the way, because I do podcasts, and the last thing I need is for my magic trackpad to make an artificial clicking noise when I click it.

00:04:25   That's exactly why you should be tapping, because then, you know, no noise. Anyway.

00:04:28   No, but I can't. But I can't because I mistap and I misclick when I use tap to click. The way my hand rests on the trackpad, I can't use tap to click. It gets too many mistaken taps.

00:04:39   I feel like I'm turning into John Syracuse before your eyes here, other than the fact that I'm doing natural scrolling. I don't think he does natural scrolling.

00:04:45   No, he doesn't. I think him and Marco spoke about this on an episode of ATP recently. If I'm remembering correctly, I apologize for any slander. They use the old scrolling method.

00:04:55   Like, unnatural scrolling.

00:04:57   I can't understand. I just don't understand how somebody could use an iOS device and then use scrolling in that way. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

00:05:05   I know.

00:05:05   And I know, I totally understand the idea that, oh, I've been doing this for years and years on laptops. I get it, but I really feel like the iOS device has completely broke that for me.

00:05:16   I like the passive aggressive nature of the trackpad control panel, the system preferences pane, where it is very specifically referred to as natural scrolling.

00:05:28   And so, in order to scroll the other way, you have to say, opt me out of what nature intended. I want to be unnatural. I want to do it the wrong way.

00:05:38   Give me that unnatural way.

00:05:40   I really enjoy that, that Apple was like, you could do the right way or you can uncheck this box. It's your choice. And do it the wrong way. At least they give you the choice.

00:05:47   But they're not going to, they're going to, before you can uncheck that box, they've got to remind you, you're doing it wrong.

00:05:52   I love it.

00:05:54   Love it.

00:05:54   All right. So thank you. We've outraged everyone. I'm terrified.

00:05:58   Welcome back. Summer of fun!

00:06:01   I'm terrified for the response to this Snell Talk question. Tom, I guess thank you for what you've done in recommending this topic.

00:06:10   If you would like to, if I start the show in either an outrageous or an outrageous fashion, you can send a tweet with the hashtag Snell Talk and we'll pick one up for a future episode.

00:06:20   Like you gave the call, the summer of fun signal. We are still in the summer of fun! Because I wasn't going to miss it all.

00:06:27   I wasn't going to miss it all. This is still fun. We're still in the fun.

00:06:29   You were having fun without upgrade there for a while.

00:06:32   I was listening to the show though. It took me a very long time to listen to them.

00:06:36   Maybe about, I think it took me a week to listen to the episode that you did with Steven, which I enjoyed greatly.

00:06:42   We do have a little bit of follow up on that in a moment.

00:06:45   Actually, you may as well do that now. My understanding is people were outraged at the both of you for not picking OS X Tiger in your OS X draft.

00:06:57   Yeah, that was the one I got more than any other comment about that was I can't believe, and by the way, every time you do a draft of anything, or a list of anything in a podcast, the first response you get is, "I can't believe you didn't mention."

00:07:11   And I kind of did the OS X draft thinking, "I want to see what happens." And sure enough, people were like, "I can't believe you didn't pick Tiger!"

00:07:20   Tiger was the one that kept coming up. I just can't believe it. How could you pick six versions of OS X out of 13 and not pick Tiger?

00:07:28   I'm going to decide right now to make the upgrade-ians out there very happy. Because if I would have been on that episode, it would have been my number one draft pick.

00:07:37   Because Tiger was my first version of OS X. Because I bought the Intel iMac. That was my first Mac. And that shipped to Tiger. So I would have picked Tiger.

00:07:52   Okay, well I guess you get it then.

00:07:54   Yeah, that's my draft pick.

00:07:56   You get a supplemental pick. Nobody should even ask now.

00:07:59   No, because I just picked it. It's fine. I get the one pick. The one pick.

00:08:03   So, more summer of fun. I had a great time in Hawaii, but I was also in San Francisco on either side of the trip.

00:08:10   Because it is almost sadistic to try and get to Hawaii directly from London. Because it's something like 20, 23 hours, including a layover.

00:08:22   But you're also going 11 hours behind in time zones. So we decided that we would probably end up wasting the first two days of our trip if we did that.

00:08:32   Which we were not keen to do. So we flew to San Francisco, and then from San Francisco took the six hour flight out to Hawaii.

00:08:40   But we spent a couple of days in San Francisco on either side. And one of them was me and Adina travelled to the Snell Zone.

00:08:46   And we spent some time with the Snell family. You showed me a couple of things. One was HomePod stereo.

00:08:52   Which I was very impressed with, because I hadn't heard a stereo paired HomePod. And I liked that very much.

00:08:58   And also your son was working with AirPlay too. So I was very impressed with that.

00:09:03   And I did have that moment where I was like, "hmm, should I get a second HomePod?" And then realized, "no, no I will not get a second HomePod."

00:09:10   Because even though it does sound, I know people said this, and you said this, I heard so many people say, "oh it's so much better in stereo."

00:09:16   I'm like, "oh really? How much better can it actually be?" A lot better. It sounds a lot better.

00:09:22   We listened to some Arctic Monkeys songs and stuff. I was really surprised. It honestly sounded like I was wearing headphones.

00:09:29   I was very surprised with the stereo separation that they're doing with the HomePods.

00:09:34   But then I realized very quickly that I seldom listen to music on the HomePod anyway, just because we don't really have music on in the house when we're doing things.

00:09:44   If we're doing things, like we're cleaning up or whatever, where there's no other media playing, me and Adina will listen to podcasts typically.

00:09:51   So it is very rare that we just have music on like that, which is why I wouldn't get one.

00:09:57   But if I was a person who liked the HomePod and enjoyed music and having it sound good and listening to it all the time, I would totally want to invest in the second one.

00:10:06   It's expensive, but the difference is stellar.

00:10:10   It makes a huge difference and helps fill the room. I have a Sonos Play 5, like you mentioned, but it's like boombox shape. So it's not really doing stereo separation.

00:10:21   You've got to have a huge space to lay that thing down on. With the two HomePods in my living room, I've got one on my end table and one on my piano.

00:10:30   So they're kind of bracketing the room and they fill it. It's one of those things where I've got...

00:10:35   I have a Sonos, I forget what it's called, but it's the one that you attach to an amplifier and run it through regular speakers. It's not the amp.

00:10:42   It's before they gave them the play names, right?

00:10:45   Yeah, it's an older one and it doesn't get AirPlay or anything like that. It's just there.

00:10:50   But it was one of those things where I was like, well, I had a squeeze box and that was you attach it to your stereo and then it plays the music through your stereo on your stereo speakers.

00:10:59   And you've got, yay, digital music on your stereo. What could be better? Except I realize now that I wouldn't need it.

00:11:10   The Connect is the name of it. I can't remember the last time I played music through that, through my speakers.

00:11:23   So my speakers are all for like home theater for the TV and we're getting a new TV, which is that's for next week. We'll follow up next week about that.

00:11:31   But as a part of that, I disconnected my whole sort of home theater system and I'm going to reconnect it when the new TV gets here.

00:11:37   And I was listening to TV through my TV speakers for the first time.

00:11:42   And it was that moment of truth of like, I spent all this money and time doing this.

00:11:47   It's going to be really embarrassing if this TV sounds great.

00:11:51   Spoiler alert, it sounds terrible. I was like, yeah, TV speakers sound terrible. All right, I win.

00:11:57   But for me, for the music side of it, like it's at this point, I just, I don't use those speakers, even though they sound great because the HomePod sounds great too.

00:12:06   So it would have changed my priorities in that way. It's still, yeah, it's still really expensive.

00:12:11   And I don't think I would recommend that everybody rush out and buy two HomePods just to get it because that's a lot of money.

00:12:16   I'm hopeful that maybe Apple will realize that some of the resistance to the HomePod is the pricing and that I'm not sure they should, I mean, it would be nice if they cut the HomePod price a little bit.

00:12:30   But what I really think they should do to get these things to sell well at the holidays is sell a two-pack.

00:12:36   Like sell them for a discount if you buy two.

00:12:40   Yeah, because that would be a really nice, and the flexibility of, like I said, of having them in different places in a room and stereo pairing them.

00:12:48   And then, yeah, also speaking of home theater, like if you are an Apple TV person, if you're a cord cutter with an Apple TV, you can just make them your speakers and that works.

00:12:56   I did that yesterday too. And all of a sudden the audio is just coming out of my AirPods.

00:13:03   And the lag is okay?

00:13:04   Yeah, there's no lag. It's AirPlay 2 and it's synced with a video and it's perfect. It's amazing.

00:13:09   Even third-party apps like YouTube and stuff? Oh man.

00:13:13   Yeah, because it's all just going through the system. So that's an interesting thing where you can kind of give yourself, if everything is going through the Apple TV, that's the catch.

00:13:21   And for mine it isn't. I have a bunch of other stuff too. But if everything is just going through the Apple TV, it will also work that way using AirPlay 2. It'll just play straight to them.

00:13:29   Okay. Okay. Well, that's great.

00:13:31   Anyway.

00:13:32   That's really good.

00:13:33   So headline is HomePod more interesting than previously thought.

00:13:37   Yeah. Well, I mean, isn't that the story of the device since it came out? Right? Like, it feels like it's never where it needs to be. It just continues to get more interesting over time.

00:13:47   And then hopefully at some point it will be one.

00:13:48   Well, at least they're making it more interesting.

00:13:50   That's true. They haven't just left it. So yeah, I had a great, great, great trip. I had a lot of help from people while I was away. So thank you to everyone who's helped.

00:13:58   Especially Steven, who helped out a bunch. He was even on upgrade for the very first time as just the host. He's been on as a guest in the past.

00:14:07   But yeah, I'm going to address the sheer imbalance of Macintosh discussion later on in the episode.

00:14:14   And also a huge thank you to Federico Vittucci and Serenity Caldwell for the iPad episode.

00:14:20   And in case you haven't, that episode was recorded in advance. And in case you've missed it, Serenity has actually got a job at Apple now.

00:14:29   So congratulations to Ren. And I guess if you enjoy Ren on Tech Podcasts Treasure, that iPad episode, because I'm pretty sure she will be on some incomparable shows.

00:14:41   I would like to hope so. But I don't expect we're going to hear her on any technology shows for the time being.

00:14:49   Yeah, there are a bunch of Apple employees actually who have appeared on incomparable podcasts over the years.

00:14:55   And it's like, well, we don't talk about them being Apple employees, but they're completely outside of the technology realm.

00:15:02   It's not disallowed. And so if they're talking about a TV show or they're playing Dungeons and Dragons or something like that, it's OK.

00:15:08   And so I would anticipate that schedule permitting, you know, which is because she's a very busy person and she will continue to be at Apple.

00:15:14   And she's got so many other interests that we'll get her on the incomparable and total party kill.

00:15:18   We already have some plans afoot there. But on the tech side, yeah, in terms of, you know, external tech podcasting, that may be a door that is closed until perhaps one day in the future.

00:15:32   If she ever were to leave Apple, then she would kind of reemerge. But she's on the inside now.

00:15:37   Maybe she could get the approval at some point to make a special guest appearance. You never know.

00:15:41   Wouldn't that be nice? That would be great. I look forward to that.

00:15:45   I miss her already.

00:15:47   Oh, I actually have another piece of follow up. You mentioned Federico and the sequence.

00:15:50   If you listen to everything sequentially, you may have thought that I was on canvas with Federico last week, which we didn't mention when we did the big iPad special because we recorded that a month in advance.

00:16:02   But if you missed it, I was off on canvas with Federico and it's mostly Federico.

00:16:06   I I'm in there every now and then reading an ad and commenting on something and I got to talk to him a little bit.

00:16:10   But it's fun. We got to talk about the iPad a lot on canvas last week because Fraser wasn't on that episode.

00:16:16   And so we got to spend time talking about iPad keyboards and all sorts of other stuff.

00:16:21   I was twelve and shortcuts as well. Right. It's a big Yeah. Yeah. We did a lot of that.

00:16:26   Yeah. I think it was primarily Siri shortcuts, which I've been I've been using a lot and have done a lot of big things with.

00:16:32   So oh, we're going to check in some of that soon. I think I haven't had the full amount of time to play with it as I want to.

00:16:39   But I keep digging into it. I keep poking around. Yeah. But this does lead us to a little bit of follow up in regards to the iPad episode.

00:16:48   I do not recall. I didn't write down who sent this in. So I apologize.

00:16:52   We got sent a link to a couple of different tablet stands. Right. Like iPad stands.

00:16:58   And there was one of them that was seemed interesting to me. It's called the Tabitha.

00:17:03   It's made by a company called Colebrook Boston Saunders, who I have no idea who they are.

00:17:08   But I poked around their website and it looks like they mostly create stands and arms for monitors for big companies.

00:17:16   It looks like what they do. You know, like you go to them and you buy like 40 monitor arms and they in it to get installed into your new office.

00:17:23   But they make this this freestanding tablet mount, which looked really interesting to me.

00:17:29   There's not as much information on the website as I would like, but it does say it has three adjustable lockable arms.

00:17:38   And it looks like it can extend to higher than the stand that we're currently using. What is the name of that thing again?

00:17:45   Oh, the Jason Snell Method stand. It doesn't have a good name is the problem.

00:17:52   It is the Viozon iPad Pro stand. The Viozon stand.

00:18:00   So I basically I'm telling you this because I'm going to report back because I have purchased one of these because it does look like what I want out of a stand.

00:18:12   The thing I'm not sure about is how weighted the foot is, because that's important to have some weight so you can tap the screen, especially if it's tall.

00:18:21   So this is what I'm keen to find out. So I have gone ahead and purchased one of these. It wasn't that much. It was like 60 pounds.

00:18:27   So it wasn't like an incredible investment. And obviously I'm free to return if it doesn't fit the bill.

00:18:32   But I'm looking at it and I have my fingers crossed that this is going to be the kind of thing I was looking for.

00:18:38   But we will see. Yeah, I have some I looked at that when I was skeptical because it it I'm concerned.

00:18:47   Yeah, that the base isn't weighty enough and it's going to tip and it really does when you're reaching up and touching the screen.

00:18:53   You need some level of stability, especially on the twelve point nine and listener Logan sent in a different one,

00:19:02   which is from above tech, which is a there's like a tablet holder and then you get the twelve point nine.

00:19:09   You have to buy it like a larger bracket to pop it on. But it's it's also fairly cheap.

00:19:15   I think it's I think it's less than 50 bucks. Yeah, I looked at that one.

00:19:18   It doesn't seem to solve my problem, which is height. It looks like if anything actually is even smaller than the the.

00:19:26   The fires on. Yeah, and this is the this is the issue is if you want height,

00:19:32   you now are dealing with the physics of having the base be stable. Also, a listener Martina wrote in about how like Ergotron,

00:19:41   which is a company that I've used their stands before they make they apparently make an iPad,

00:19:47   you know, clamping or clamping arm thing, you know that you clamp it on a desk.

00:19:51   And then I mentioned that in passing last week and they do there are some out there these kind of things.

00:19:57   If you want to permanently attach kind of an arm to a desk and then pop an iPad into it.

00:20:01   Some of them they require like a custom case on your iPad and then you put that in which I don't like.

00:20:08   But if it's something that's got a clamp, so there are some out there like that for my use.

00:20:12   I'm not at the point where I want to permanently affix an arm on my desk for an iPad.

00:20:17   Maybe the time will come but I'm not there yet. But having a stand I would let me know how that other one goes.

00:20:23   Because the I like I really like the visor stand because it is well made and it's got the clamp.

00:20:29   So it works with different sized iPads, but it is a little bit short and I know why it's short, right?

00:20:35   Because the higher it gets the harder it is to keep that thing stable. But so let me know report back.

00:20:40   Yeah, the Ocatron Marker recommended that to me because he knows that products are good.

00:20:44   But my they are good. But the thing is I use this all over the house.

00:20:49   Right. Like exactly right. I'm not I don't want to just to fix it to some single place.

00:20:55   I want to be able to exactly kind of move it around a bit. So right.

00:20:58   If you were if you're making a an iPad desk, right? It would be a good idea.

00:21:05   100% that's what I would go with. That would make perfect sense because then I could have way more flexibility with it.

00:21:10   Right. Like how you do with your what's it called? What are they called? Phaser mount.

00:21:16   Yeah. Right. Yeah. But yeah I'm not looking to do that. So but there you go.

00:21:20   There's some some good options and I'll report back before we take our first break.

00:21:24   I guess it's worth as a programming note Apple results tomorrow. Right.

00:21:28   I mean so so much going on with you and me. We're not going to talk about like what will they be which we sometimes do.

00:21:34   But there will be Apple quarterly financial results tomorrow, which means that we'll find out like the profit and how many iPads sold and all of that.

00:21:41   And then we'll you know, undoubtedly we will break that down a little bit on next week's upgrade.

00:21:47   I wanted to mention it now just to alert people that that'll be happening.

00:21:50   I'll be making my charts and doing coverage of it and you go to six colors.com to find that tomorrow.

00:21:54   It's afternoon Pacific time. Yeah, results usually come out around a 130 Pacific and there's a phone call with analysts at about 2 Pacific usually.

00:22:03   And that is always good. Tim Cook Cook is always good for a quote and trying to dodge questions from analysts and that's all good stuff.

00:22:11   And then the other thing to note is that I wrote about this on six colors. I built this I mentioned earlier.

00:22:16   I was using shortcuts. I built automation for my charts because my charts up to now and there's like 20 charts.

00:22:25   I do every quarter the way they get on the web is that I take screenshots of each chart and then upload them to my website in numbers, which is not great.

00:22:36   So I have a new a new system for doing my charts that is automated and the fun thing is that I built it for the Mac and it uses automator and it works great.

00:22:51   And I got some help from a bunch of people to do it from Sal so go in and from Dr. Drang.

00:22:56   And then I was trying to figure out how you could do it in iOS and I got some help from Rosemary Orchard and from Federico and I also built it for iOS and that was a little trickier, but it works in shortcuts to do the same thing where basically I press a button and this automation runs and the output is a couple of dozen ping files uploaded to my server with all the charts in it, which is amazing.

00:23:21   So we'll see how it goes tomorrow. It was fun to watch this kind of unfold online as well as people were jumping in to help out.

00:23:28   I thought that was really fun. Yeah, a lot of people are like can it do this and the answer was no.

00:23:33   The bad news is there are a lot of things that would seem obvious that it couldn't be done.

00:23:36   But in the end what you do is you print out a PDF convert that into an image and then just kind of carve that image up into little little images and that actually works believe it or not.

00:23:46   So you'll be covering the results tomorrow as well more of a six colors dot com right and then maybe maybe depending on what happens we might we might get to some discussion on it next week.

00:23:55   Yeah, I think there'll be something to pick out of there about like iPad sales figures or if Tim Cook hints at something or yeah how the iPhone is doing well, it's you know, we're going we're rolling into the big holiday quarter when everything happens.

00:24:09   So this is sort of the less interesting part of Apple's year right now, but still there might be which reflects technology news hence the creation of the Summer of Fun.

00:24:17   That's right.

00:24:19   That's the cycle. Although today we have so much more to get so much.

00:24:24   I'm just so excited to be back. I think honestly, I really am. I'm very very excited about today's episodes.

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00:25:25   Yes, I can get it now. So this reduces the time it takes to onboard large numbers of users as part of big teams.

00:25:32   Now I use text expander for teams. I mean, admittedly it's much smaller teams, three of us.

00:25:36   But when we're working on stuff and me and Stephen and Kerry are working on stuff together and one of us is updating something it changes everything.

00:25:42   So for example we have a filing system which we file our contracts and we now use text expander to make sure we have consistent naming on all of the contracts.

00:25:51   So that way when we're looking for something we know exactly where it is, what it is and what it's about.

00:25:55   Very, very useful for stuff like that to add consistency to the team's communication which can be and if you work in any size team you'll know how important that is.

00:26:04   So go to textexpander.com/podcast right now and you can learn more about text expander and tell them that you came to them from upgrade.

00:26:11   Our thanks to text expander from Smile for their support of this show. Once again that's textexpander.com/podcast.

00:26:18   Our thanks to them for their support.

00:26:20   So should we do some upstream?

00:26:22   I had to cut so many things. I had so many things and just picked out a small handful.

00:26:29   One that is the most important upstream news that has been going on for a while and I think it is huge. The ramifications are massive.

00:26:36   The Fox and Disney deal has been agreed upon.

00:26:40   Both Fox and Disney shareholders have approved the deal for Disney to buy Fox for $71.3 billion in cash and stock.

00:26:48   I'm sure that Fox thank Comcast greatly for getting involved in all of this because they got an extra $10 or $15 billion for this including cash now which they weren't getting before.

00:27:01   Comcast did pull out after Disney increased its offer. They're going after Sky now which is weird because now Disney have bought a stake in Sky.

00:27:11   This is very incestuous. It's so complicated to wrap your head around this stuff.

00:27:16   To recap in full, what Disney will get once this deal goes through is still needs a regulatory approval from India, China and the EU.

00:27:25   The US regulatory approval is taken care of. I don't think this is going to be a problem but we'll see.

00:27:31   To recap, this deal will include Fox's film and TV studios and all of the properties that they own which include The Simpsons for example.

00:27:39   It's going to get all of those.

00:27:41   They will also pick up a stake in Sky TV. They will own Star India which I looked up is a huge media conglomerate in India which is a subsidiary of Fox.

00:27:52   And a stake in Hulu which is hilarious because Disney is launching already I think two new streaming services and now they own a big chunk and another one.

00:28:00   Disney has basically said that they very much plan to use the IP that they've purchased.

00:28:05   They very very much plan to do that especially and they've said this basically.

00:28:11   There's quotes from Bob Iger that when they're looking at launching their own streaming services, this stuff will help them greatly.

00:28:18   Yeah, Hulu is interesting because they have a stake in Hulu but this will give them a majority stake.

00:28:23   And you know Hulu is basically was a streaming service and created in the US by the TV networks to give them a place to put shows on the internet essentially.

00:28:37   And I think one of the things that Tim Goodman and I talk about on the our TV podcast every week is what Hulu might do.

00:28:50   Because if Disney owns Hulu, I mean there's a real question like will Hulu attempt to go international because I think that's their big missing piece is that right now they're really just a vehicle for the US.

00:29:02   And you know I think everybody is inclined to believe that Disney will use Hulu as the place where it puts.

00:29:11   Because if you think about their other services they've got like ESPN for sports and they've got the streaming service they're doing that is going to have Star Wars and Marvel and things like that in it.

00:29:20   And it's sort of a kid and kid and young adult kind of feel I think a little bit more than some of the more adult stuff especially that comes from like FX.

00:29:31   And Hulu might be the place for that so it may be that Hulu just naturally becomes another Disney driven streaming service and expands internationally.

00:29:43   And it's a place where they can put the stuff that is kind of a little bit off of the what we would think of as like the core Disney brands.

00:29:50   Because you know now they own not only the Simpsons but like the X-Files and It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

00:29:56   And sure so all of that is there so we'll see what they do with that.

00:30:04   The other thing is who owns the other big chunk of Hulu? Universal, Comcast.

00:30:09   So there is...

00:30:11   It keeps getting more and more complicated.

00:30:14   Yeah so and they're going to have to sell so one thing that Disney has to do is they have to sell all the sports channels and who knows who will buy those because they have to divest because of ESPN.

00:30:22   And then Fox Network and Fox TV will stay with the Murdoch's but the programs on it that are from the Fox studio belong to Disney now which is also a really interesting relationship.

00:30:35   Imagine if you think about what Disney would want and what they wouldn't want that's how this deal was structured.

00:30:39   Disney don't want Fox TV like what are they going to do with that?

00:30:42   I think they would love those sports networks but they already own ESPN and that was one of the conditions of the deal from the US government was like no no no you can't own all the sports networks you have to divest.

00:30:53   Disney you can't own all the news channels either.

00:30:56   And all the television channels we got to have some semblance of a fair play here.

00:31:01   So I think the interesting scenario and then something that has come up a couple of times recently especially since Comcast dropped out of the bidding for Fox is that people are speculating that there may be some sort of a gentleman's agreement going on here.

00:31:15   Where Disney could potentially let Comcast have Sky in exchange for Comcast agreeing to sell them their stock in Hulu.

00:31:28   It's effectively a trade right?

00:31:30   That's just a theory well even if there's money involved.

00:31:32   It makes a lot of sense.

00:31:34   Because that would give Disney 90% control over Hulu and like I think Time Warner Cable is the other 10% it's sort of not an important percentage.

00:31:42   My expectation like looking at the business models Comcast don't want Hulu and Disney don't want Sky.

00:31:49   Like if you look at where they are right you know it's not really that useful to them.

00:31:53   If Comcast could have bought Fox then great but now they can't have that they may as well just pick up Sky.

00:32:00   It's less about the characters and more about content distribution.

00:32:03   And then just you know so yeah.

00:32:06   And going forward when everybody's trying to launch a streaming service I'm not entirely sure that a streaming service that is kind of a neutral zone owned by many different parties where they put their content into it can survive.

00:32:19   Because Hulu doesn't exist in 2018 like their business model that the way that they work that was a very like 10 year ago situation.

00:32:27   Exactly.

00:32:28   So it makes sense if Disney could repurpose it as its own adult more adult oriented stuff and then also have obviously some existing content from other places.

00:32:40   It could still do that in the US and it could fulfill that but if they want to roll it out internationally that might be a way for them to do it.

00:32:45   Anyway we'll have to see what happens here because once this deal closes like all of these strange things happen where you know there are going to be new executives in charge at Disney too.

00:32:57   Like the rumor is that like the Disney TV head is going to go and that it may actually be somebody from Fox who replaces that person.

00:33:05   And what happens to the Fox cable networks like FX and FXX which have really great content on it.

00:33:13   But now it's going to be you know what will Disney want to do with that and where will they take that strategically.

00:33:20   That's all to play for and then of course from the fanboy perspective.

00:33:23   Yes this means that the X-Men will be back at Marvel Studios where they had sold them out to Fox all the X-Men movies have been made by Fox.

00:33:34   Now that's the same people who do all the Marvel movies.

00:33:38   They're all in the same place.

00:33:39   Fantastic Four right?

00:33:40   Fantastic Four as well yeah which kind of belly flopped at Fox so maybe Marvel's got a new take on that that'll work.

00:33:47   And then there are other properties too that it's just like you know you lift your eyebrows like yes Bart Simpson and Mickey Mouse are work for the same company now which is really fascinating.

00:33:58   The X-Files is now a Disney property.

00:34:01   That's weird like there's just a lot of those things it's like this really but that so yeah strange bedfellows we'll see what happens.

00:34:09   On that note super quick there has been another announced show for the possible who knows what Disney streaming service announced Comic-Con Star Wars the Clone Wars is going to get its final season.

00:34:23   Apparently I haven't seen the show but my understanding from reading about it the story wasn't finished.

00:34:29   The show went off the air but the story wasn't over and they tried to do some things to wrap it up but there is a whole new season coming which will finish the overall arc of the show.

00:34:39   This Clone Wars animated series will join Jon Favreau Star Wars project that will premiere on the streaming service whatever it might end up being.

00:34:49   Right and some presumably some Marvel projects that we haven't heard of either so who knows I mean the stuff they announced at Comic-Con and the stuff they didn't it makes me kind of try to calibrate like when they actually are going to launch this and what's going to be on there if they only have certain things to announce.

00:35:05   But yeah my friends who are Star Wars fans who are like huge Star Wars fans were blown away by this because there were no reports that this was going to happen everybody expected that they would have a follow up to Rebels which is the most recent one that replaced Clone Wars and Clone Wars got caught in the shuffle right it was on Cartoon Network which was a different network not owned by Disney.

00:35:26   And when Disney bought Lucasfilm one of the things that happened is they're like yeah we're gonna not make that show anymore we're gonna make a new show on our own network and so this is interesting that maybe some contractual reasons why it didn't happen before but that they're going to get to kind of complete the story because it was generally a well liked show although I have not watched it that maybe someday.

00:35:48   And last thing I want to talk about was YouTube Premium so they've announced their slate of programming that's gonna be there for programming and it includes Will Smith, Kirsten Dunst, Robert Downey Jr and many more Hollywood stars that you may have heard of.

00:36:06   And this is very perplexing to me because YouTube Red when it launched was all about YouTube giving TV series to the YouTubers right like that was kind of the idea but now all of the YouTube Premium shows that they are talking about all of the new products all of the new projects I should say are all with Hollywood stars.

00:36:29   So they renewed Michael Stevens' Mind Field he's from Vsauce he's a YouTuber as well as a show called Foursome which is I think the fourth season which is one of the very original YouTube Red shows.

00:36:40   So they're the YouTuber shows but they're just renewals of successful shows.

00:36:44   All of the new stuff that I could find is coming from Hollywood so clearly YouTube have decided that they want to position themselves more in line with Netflix and Amazon and TV I guess instead of focusing on leveraging the stars already on their platform.

00:37:02   I think this is a bad idea.

00:37:04   Yeah because what makes YouTube YouTube what they're saying is okay we have reached here because all the reasons YouTube is successful now that we're here we're going to create this thing that you pay for that is just another Netflix.

00:37:19   There's a disconnect I don't think it works.

00:37:22   Yeah.

00:37:23   I know like Will Smith for example right like he is he's he's on YouTube in a big way now and that's like a big thing for him. But this isn't a series that he's doing like there's this whole thing with a couple of YouTubers who challenged him to jump out of a helicopter and he's doing it.

00:37:36   I think the channel is called Yes Theory.

00:37:38   He's going to jump out of a helicopter I think that's what it is.

00:37:40   And they're making a one off TV special a premium special of him jumping out of a helicopter.

00:37:45   Right. So that's just like he said he was going to do it and then YouTube called him like we'll pay you X amount of million dollars if you give that to us and don't put it on your channel.

00:37:54   And it's like all right whatever. Right. But there's no series going on there where like I don't believe that Kirsten Dunst and Robert Downey Jr. are on YouTube in a big way.

00:38:02   I mean I haven't seen that. So this is purely like there are these projects these names are attached and YouTube purchased them.

00:38:08   I don't think it makes any sense to me like I just don't get it like YouTube Premium should be about giving really famous YouTube stars TV shows like I don't understand why they're not doing that.

00:38:21   And I know that they've had some projects that got canceled because of some issues with various YouTubers.

00:38:27   But there are many people on their platform that could do this.

00:38:32   I mean I think a lot of people that subscribe to YouTube Premium do it because they watch a lot of YouTubers and they even want to support them or remove the ads.

00:38:41   Like that's kind of the flow. I don't think people are signing up because of X YouTube Premium show.

00:38:46   Like those shows are like a benefit. And I would expect that YouTube like well I know what we'll do.

00:38:52   We'll bring in Hollywood stars because then people I don't think that's going to force more people to sign up for YouTube Premium.

00:38:58   I don't think it works that way. I don't know.

00:39:00   Yeah. So Tim Goodman wrote a piece about this because they're having the Television Critics Association Summer Press Tour in LA right now.

00:39:09   And he wrote a piece in the Hollywood Reporter about the sessions with Facebook Watch and YouTube Premium.

00:39:16   And it's a fun article to read. Basically Facebook Watch what Tim says is these people have no idea what they're doing.

00:39:25   Right. Okay. That seems that way.

00:39:27   They don't have a strategy. They don't have a plan. They have no idea what they're doing.

00:39:29   YouTube what he says is the people who are working at YouTube the TV execs that they've hired are good.

00:39:36   They know what they're doing in terms of like finding programming.

00:39:40   The problem is I think one of the things is what you say which is it's just a complete mismatch with what YouTube is and what it represents.

00:39:46   And what Tim's basic final thing is you know lots of people in the entertainment industry are terrified of Netflix and all the money it spends.

00:39:56   And Amazon and all the money that it's starting to spend. We didn't even get to that.

00:39:59   We may talk about that next week a little bit about like everything that that because Amazon is now like geared up with their new executive team to take on Netflix.

00:40:08   And they're making lots of announcements. People in the entertainment industry are not afraid of certainly Facebook and really YouTube at this point.

00:40:19   And that to Tim and I think to me that's telling when you know when you talk to people in the industry and they're like oh you know YouTube they're going to have a premium service and they're going to spend a lot of money on content.

00:40:31   There doesn't seem to be a great deal of fear of that and I think that's because they're looking at it too and saying this doesn't make sense.

00:40:36   I don't think this is going to work.

00:40:39   All right. So that's upstream. We'll have more next week as we always do.

00:40:43   There's always more.

00:40:44   Let's talk quickly about the MacBook Pro performance thing.

00:40:50   So yeah in between the episode you did with Steven which the MacBook Pro just came out and now there was this whole debacle about the throttling of the CPUs on the new MacBook Pros.

00:41:04   I recommend people listen as a piece of follow out to episode 284 of ATP because when I saw this news I followed it very lightly because this sort of stuff doesn't interest me greatly.

00:41:16   And considering I was on vacation didn't need to talk about it on a show. I kind of let it go honestly.

00:41:21   I was I was familiar with it. I knew something was going on and I didn't really bother to look into like why is this happening.

00:41:29   Like what does it mean for a chip to be throttled etc etc. And I would do the research when I needed to talk about it.

00:41:35   And I listened to episode 284 of ATP on the plane home and got all of the information I needed.

00:41:41   It is an excellent honestly I think one of the best episodes of ATP ever.

00:41:46   It is an excellent episode. They do a really good job of breaking down all of the stuff that was going on with Intel.

00:41:52   Why it's a problem. Why it might not be a problem. Why Apple are in the wrong. Why they're not in the wrong.

00:41:57   And then also a bunch of really funny stuff about pasta. So I recommend listening to that episode because I don't really want to go into the hows and whys of what was going on here.

00:42:08   Except to say it's a very good episode. It got fixed. There was a bug a bug in firmware that got fixed.

00:42:14   And I know that Apple issued a statement to you which you wrote about in six colors. Right.

00:42:19   Yeah it's a very good episode. They also talk about the keyboard stuff a little bit which leads to one of my favorite ATP titles ever which is Hotel California Keyboard.

00:42:28   Yeah very good. That was a KC line. I was very proud of him.

00:42:32   Yeah you can hear how proud he is as he says it. He's like I got this. I got this.

00:42:37   Yeah and the way I put it in our notes is sort of like disaster OMG lol nope. Like it just came and it went. You got to spin down the outrage machine because it turns out it was a bug.

00:42:50   And my mini rant about this topic because we did kind of like yeah do the way the recording schedule we didn't get to dive into it is I think it's interesting how people are so ready to be outraged.

00:43:07   And Apple bears some we mentioned this on download last week. Apple bears some of the responsibility for kind of priming the pump here because people are grumbly and you know unhappy with some of the decisions Apple made with the MacBook Pro.

00:43:19   And I think that's something super wrong with each one of them. As you said very rightly which I completely forgot about with Steven. At first it was the ports. It was USB-C was the problem. Then that was the first one right. Everyone hated that there were no ports.

00:43:32   And RAM and the max RAM was too small 16.

00:43:35   Which we kind of got over some of that. Then the keyboards were a problem with the next one right because it seemed like the keyboards people didn't like the keyboards but they weren't catastrophically failing. Then it seemed like in the second revision. Yeah exactly.

00:43:49   Yeah either that or just the time passes and crumbs fall into your keyboard and then the keyboard became the cause for a while.

00:43:55   And by the time the second one had come out right where the keyboard wasn't any different they were failing. So then the problem was the keyboards were a problem. So when MacBook Pros come out and there's throttling on the CPU's you would immediately think oh well this is what they've done this time.

00:44:10   Because every revision of these machines has brought with it a new thing to be frustrated about right. So it makes sense why this caught on so quickly because it just seemed like par for the course that there would be a big problem. A new big problem.

00:44:24   Yeah it's so that's that primes the pump and then of course people are looking for something to get outraged.

00:44:31   Yeah there is the thing right like as well like this is this is the landscape that we live in especially with technology reporting things being wrong drive a lot of traffic.

00:44:40   So if you are in YouTube or writing on the web like you need numbers on podcast it doesn't work that way.

00:44:46   We don't or at least we don't go for the shock things with the numbers because it doesn't really affect in podcasts like you don't get like that hit and run type thing.

00:44:57   Podcasts are subscription driven right. So yeah so anyway this the issue here is that people because they're primed for it and because also outrage sells.

00:45:09   There's this like leaping to basically what I saw was people are basically like oh my God I can't believe that Apple released systems that are high-end laptops designed for video editors that don't work.

00:45:22   So the logic here is I can't believe Apple would do this where they would release a high-end video editing laptop and it's slower than before and basically it spins down to like no processor speed unless you're in a meat locker and how could they do this and Apple's totally lost the plot and this is a disaster right when not to not to bring up the Occam's razor the idea that probably the simplest explanation is the correct one.

00:45:50   I looked at this at the time and I was like it's got to be a bug right like there's no way that Apple would choose to release a product that was so totally broken that it was unsuitable for a task like they're not going to do that.

00:46:05   What do you think would happen if Apple was like we can get away with it. Nobody's paying attention to the products we release hehe.

00:46:11   We can charge them $5,000 for this thing and it doesn't work and nobody will ever notice like no that doesn't happen but people will believe as we've learned people will believe all kind of anything they hear on the internet and so it wasn't logical that this was the case.

00:46:27   It was very clearly a bug and almost certainly a software bug because again they do a lot of internal testing of these systems before they're released and if they couldn't do video encoding like for and compression and all that for an extended period of time before overheating and throttling down.

00:46:47   How like to an unusable level they would know and there's no way they would ship that there's no way they would ship that people are like, oh, no, they would ship it and try to trick people.

00:46:57   It's like no, of course they wouldn't. Of course, they wouldn't they know what the blowback would be for that.

00:47:02   So the logical thing to do is to look at this and say, huh that seems really really weird.

00:47:08   I wonder what's going on here and let's talk to Apple and and so like I think the first video was was perfectly responsible that was a legitimate a video editor being like what's going on here, but it then it goes and it turns into this whole gate crazy thing and Apple knows it because you know the fact that Apple released a bug a week later suggest that they were on it and they found the problem and they had people working probably, you know, for all the time through the weekend to get that release out on.

00:47:37   I think Tuesday morning figure, you know, they had to identify the problem. They contacted the original YouTuber. They got his sample files.

00:47:47   They you know, they ran it on the hardware. They did all of this stuff and found the issue which was it sounds like a very esoteric bug where some data didn't get included in the final build of the software on the shipping systems and it had it didn't cause them to break.

00:48:05   It just caused this weird anomalous behavior in the thermal management portion which would then lead to a throttle down and they you know, they missed that.

00:48:19   So again, you know, it's it's not it's a time when people are primed to be looking for things from Apple because they're suspicious of Apple's decisions in this product and I don't want to downplay that like that's if everything was great and people loved everything.

00:48:34   Apple was doing with these laptops and then something like this came out. It would have not happened quite like this but in the end, you know, it was a bug.

00:48:43   I think it was pretty clear that it was a bug. It was pretty clear that was not a total disaster where Apple had built hardware that was unusable.

00:48:50   It was also not not a bug right like no. No, I'm sure it's fine. I'm sure it's fine right. You can go either way with these stories and just say everything is great.

00:48:58   Don't believe the haters and you could also say oh my God the sky is falling and unfortunately for everybody the truth is yeah, it was a dumb bug that they fixed in a week and now everything is fine.

00:49:09   So, you know, that's that's where we live in people are going to people going to freak out but people were primed to freak out because there's been so much unhappiness with the MacBook Pro.

00:49:19   One last question and this will move on obviously Apple responded to this pretty quickly. Do you think they maybe should say that they're looking into it?

00:49:28   Like they don't say anything until it's fixed wouldn't it wouldn't help them if they even just like went to the verge and they were just like we want to give a statement that we can see this isn't as intended and we are looking into it.

00:49:40   Would that not help?

00:49:42   So last week on download Michael garden Berg was on who used to work at Apple and what he said was, you know, there are a couple different ways to do this and one is to acknowledge the problem and say we're working on it and then you acknowledge the problem or the other way is acknowledge the problem and here's our fix for it.

00:49:57   And that seems to be what they basically did this time. They thought they could get to it so quickly that they wanted to have not just an acknowledgement of the problem, but the solution.

00:50:05   It's also possible that that this they discovered the problem like figured out what it was on like Saturday or Sunday like that they very late in the game found out what it was and they and before that if they don't know exactly what is causing it.

00:50:21   There is this fear that you know, you can't say what you're going to do because the fix the fix might take six months right like you have no idea right.

00:50:27   We're investigating this but yeah, if it requires six months if it is a hardware problem, whatever it is like if you don't know okay, I think that's the inclination but I agree.

00:50:36   I think that that Apple changing its changing its rules right changing its Playbook all of those things that I've I've written about and that we've talked about this is one of those places where they're doing it because this was much more rapid a response and I think they did a really good job with their response to it.

00:50:54   But I think that will be part of the postmortem for them is should we have jumped faster on saying we're in touch with Dave Lee and we're looking into this and the which I don't think they did and say, you know, his results are not do not match what we've tested internally and are not intended is as a way to basically say, you know,

00:51:23   this is not the product screw you. Yeah, you didn't discover an ugly fact about these systems. There's something wrong here and we're investigating it. That's probably all the statement you need to make until you've got an answer.

00:51:37   Yeah, and and I if they didn't I can't remember it's possible that somebody got nobody. I didn't see that but yeah, but that that would be the clear signal people people were still working on videos trying to show what the problem was like.

00:51:49   Yeah, all the reddit threads about it like we're trying to pick it apart and so that would be one way that they could have gotten ahead of it is what we're seeing we're in touch with him what he's seeing is not what we've seen in all of our thorough testing of these systems.

00:52:04   And it's not supposed to work like that like that that gets them ahead of it to say. Hey people. This is not business as usual because that was the conspiracy theory was like I can't believe they ship the system that's so hot that it can't work and Apple could have very quickly said.

00:52:18   No, no, it's not supposed to do that. That's wrong. We're working on it because they because they said in their statement ultimately that all their testing.

00:52:29   Showed what their test claims were based on, you know, obviously stuff where they didn't see that but then when they made the fix their test claims were exactly the same. So they've done a lot of testing and seen it and they knew what the speed was supposed to be in those scenarios

00:52:44   and they couldn't understand why it wasn't so, you know, they could have probably had a little more confidence to say. No the computer, you know, your high-end i9 15 inch laptop does not stop being functional encoding video after a minute like they probably could have said that so maybe they will next time who knows.

00:53:04   Alright, Jason, let's let's take a break and thank our friends over at Pingdom for their support of this show. The reason Pingdom so awesome. And the reason I love them is because they help keep sites including ours online. Pingdom monitor your site so you don't have to and they'll give you real time feedback.

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00:54:55   There was news a couple of weeks ago that we wanted to talk about and it's all about Adobe and something that they are doing which seems really surprising to me because one, it's happening now and two, it's happening at all.

00:55:11   This is a report on Bloomberg that apparently there is going to be a newly rebuilt full version of Photoshop that will run on desktop machines and iPads coming in 2019 with other apps including Illustrator to follow.

00:55:27   This is full Photoshop feature parity across tablets and Macs and PCs. That's what they're looking to do.

00:55:36   It's basically new Photoshop where they're going to use their Lua and all their other existing scripting infrastructure. I think it's like what they did with Lightroom where there's now a new Lightroom.

00:55:47   Everybody who is cheering about Photoshop being on the iPad now will also probably be booing later when they discover that it will be new Photoshop and that on the Mac you'll still be able to run classic Photoshop and they'll leave it there.

00:56:03   I expect it to be Final Cut. It's going to be really good in a bunch of ways. It's going to be easier for people to get used to but it's going to miss some things that real professionals use and eventually we'll get them.

00:56:15   Especially initially which is basically what's gone on with the new Lightroom because they've done this with Lightroom where there's a new Lightroom and they keep the classic Lightroom around and it's a very different thing.

00:56:25   I imagine it will be kind of like that where it's not quite the same Photoshop you're used to but it will be the new Photoshop that goes everywhere including on iPad.

00:56:35   This idea that they're committing to the iPad as a platform for the Creative Cloud stuff is super exciting.

00:56:47   The report suggests that this will be demoed and shown off at Adobe Max which is their conference in October.

00:56:55   I should say, not a rumor, they confirmed it.

00:56:57   This is something I was getting to but you're completely right.

00:57:02   Basically what happens is this was a report from Bloomberg which was then confirmed in essence.

00:57:08   Scott Belsky, Adobe's Chief Product Officer of Creative Cloud has said they are working on new cross-platform apps but hasn't given any timings.

00:57:16   There are other things in this report which suggest the timings.

00:57:19   If I'm remembering it correctly, the original report did not have this quote from Adobe in it.

00:57:25   It was just like a "here's a thing we know" and then this got added in.

00:57:29   I'm not sure but definitely they confirmed it.

00:57:31   They either confirmed it to the reporters before they went to publish or they confirmed it after the fact but they have confirmed it for sure.

00:57:36   So this is apparently being shown off at Adobe Max. I would be willing to put down a significant sum of money that this will not be the first time that we see the Photoshop running on iPad.

00:57:49   I'm pretty confident that that will be shown off as part of the demo of the new iPad Pros in September.

00:57:55   I cannot believe that they will have something ready to show in October that they won't put on stage in September during the iPhone keynote.

00:58:05   I would guarantee that Apple and Adobe have worked together on this in some way.

00:58:12   There is an element of collaboration which has occurred to ensure that this is going to work for everyone.

00:58:18   From the case of how do we sell this and how are we going to work together?

00:58:25   Or maybe we can do a deal about how much Creative Cloud costs.

00:58:30   There's going to be some stuff there which I'm very confident happens with some of these bigger players.

00:58:34   I expect there's a bunch of things going on there and Apple is helping them.

00:58:38   Adobe, you've written about this in the past, they have iOS apps that are supposed to do some Photoshop-like things but nobody uses them.

00:58:46   And that's probably why they're doing this.

00:58:48   Yeah, that's it. They have super weird, well, I think their conception was let's build little bite-sized apps for phones.

00:58:56   And the problem is that that became their iOS strategy, including on the iPad. And it's clear from apps like Affinity Photo that you can do Photoshop-style fully functional apps on iOS and Adobe just isn't.

00:59:12   And so I feel for them because I think they made a decision with the information they had at the time that they thought was maybe the right one.

00:59:19   And that now it looks like that was, you know, with the growing power of the iPad, that was a problem because those apps were not great for the iPad.

00:59:28   They were reconceptions when I think a lot of their customers wanted Photoshop.

00:59:35   Like I talked to a couple of tweet exchanges with a woman named Jen Bartell who's a fantastic comic book artist.

00:59:43   And she has been detailing like how she likes the iPad but most of the work she does is on a tablet that is a Windows tablet.

00:59:54   It's like a Wacom tablet and Windows laptop basically in one because she needs full Photoshop for so much of what she does.

01:00:02   And the Adobe apps don't cut it and the other apps on the iPad don't cut it, although there are some apps that she likes and will do some work on.

01:00:12   And I pointed her at this story and she was like, "Yeah!"

01:00:16   I'm like really excited about it because she really likes the iPad but doesn't do Photoshop and she needs Photoshop for her job.

01:00:25   So I think it's exciting that we're going to get there because the iPad absolutely is capable of doing all of this.

01:00:33   And yet this also seems to be part of Adobe's strategy of like what are we going to do for these core apps that we have people spending a lot of money on with subscriptions on an ongoing basis?

01:00:44   How do we position them for a future world where the Windows interface has the options to be touch-centric and run on tablets?

01:00:55   Where Apple has got the iPad, what do we do to cover all of the bases?

01:01:01   And it's a lot of what we've been talking about with the idea of Marzipan and where Apple goes with its OS and its app platform.

01:01:07   You kind of want to have something today that can scale, if not from phone size if you're Adobe, although maybe, but from small screens all the way up to super large screens and with touch or mouse and keyboard as interfaces.

01:01:20   And that's what an app should be like now.

01:01:23   I also wonder, you talk about Adobe and Apple talking, I do wonder if one of the back channel conversations they might be having is about what Apple is doing with the Marzipan stuff.

01:01:35   Because if I were Adobe, I would like to not make technical decisions about where I'm going with this that would be the wrong decisions to make in terms of what my Mac version is and what my iPad version is.

01:01:51   And it may not matter, and they may not have an answer, but it would be one of those things like if you're Apple too, wouldn't you want to collaborate with Adobe so that if Adobe put a lot of effort into doing an iPad version of Photoshop in, let's say, early to mid-2019, that maybe that work could also go toward a new version of Mac Photoshop later in the year.

01:02:14   Maybe, I don't know.

01:02:16   That's interesting. I hadn't even thought about that. What does that mean for the amount of work that Adobe are going to do? Are they eventually just going to end up throwing out one of them?

01:02:27   I mean, the idea is that these are very cross-platform already, that a lot of the work they're doing is at a higher level where it's going to be the same on Windows and it's going to be the same on iPad and it'll be the same on Mac.

01:02:39   Because they're using their high-level scripting language that they build everything in, that a lot of that will be high-level enough that there won't be as much cross-platform work that needs to be done.

01:02:52   I think that's the idea here. But yeah, the thought occurred to me, like, do we invest, if we're Adobe, do we invest in building the Mac version of this and the iOS version of this?

01:03:03   Or are there things we can do so that they're basically... And maybe the answer is, no, no, just build a Mac version. Don't worry about this AppKit stuff.

01:03:12   It's, you know, just go. Or maybe the answer is, actually, yeah, just build the AppKit version and then that can be your Mac version too, which depends on how powerful those apps can be next fall.

01:03:25   So do you think that Adobe are potentially nervous about products like the Affinity stuff or Pixelmator and things like that?

01:03:34   I don't... I think they don't like it. I think that they don't like hearing from their customers that they can't get on the iPad and that they maybe are using things like this.

01:03:43   The challenge is so many of Adobe's customers are on multiple devices and they're paying a subscription.

01:03:49   So I think it's less likely that somebody is going to be like, I could just use Pixelmator. I mean, it is on the Mac and iOS, right? I could just use Affinity.

01:03:57   Because they're probably using the Creative Suite, they're using all of the cloud apps or multiple cloud apps, and they're using it on multiple platforms.

01:04:06   And I think Adobe probably feels like they may be risking losing some customers, but I think it's more that they have this pain point where they have customers who are using their products and paying for their services.

01:04:18   And those people are frustrated that they're locked out of their iPads.

01:04:22   And that's the problem here is that they're frustrated because they're like, well, I can do it on my iPad, but then it doesn't connect to Creative Cloud, which is what I need because that's what I use on my desktop.

01:04:33   And that's a frustration. I think there are some people who would be like, well, I don't need Photoshop because I can just get Pixelmator and I can buy it and I don't have to spend $110 or $120 a year on it.

01:04:47   There are those people. And Adobe will lose some of them, but Adobe I think is going to lose some of them anyway because if you have to pay a subscription fee, some people are going to be like, I don't want to do it. Can I get away with it? Can I avoid doing that?

01:05:02   Especially if you don't use them that extensively, right?

01:05:05   Exactly.

01:05:06   If you're just doing some simple resizing or retouching something like Pixelmator, which is what I use, because I don't really understand Photoshop enough that I could even do a lot of the things that you would want to do with it.

01:05:16   But Pixelmator I can understand because it is more simplified. But the Pixelmator version on iPad is good, but the UI is a little clunky. So I'm very keen to see what Adobe will turn out personally.

01:05:32   Yeah, it'll be interesting to see which approach they take because for me the biggest asset that Photoshop has and the reason that I use it and I pay for it and I pay the annual subscription fee for it is because I learned Photoshop a long time ago.

01:05:46   Like an impossibly long time ago. It was probably like more than 25 years ago now I learned how to use Photoshop because I learned in college.

01:05:56   And Photoshop works like Photoshop feels like Photoshop like I know where everything is. I know how it works.

01:06:02   And there's a great comfort in that and that also there's a great speed and being able to like, you know, I understand what I need to do and how I do it in Photoshop.

01:06:10   And the problem on my iPad is that Pixelmator is good. Affinity Photo is good. Acorn is good on my Mac like, but they're not Photoshop and it's hard for me to adjust.

01:06:21   And then I go back to my Mac and I'm using Photoshop still and for me, I think that's Adobe's greatest asset is if they can put something on the iPad that feels like Photoshop and behaves like Photoshop and works with Photoshop, then that's a big deal.

01:06:33   But that would be interesting though, right? Because like will new Photoshop be like old Photoshop?

01:06:38   That is the big question, right? And that's the challenge that you make when you advance a product like that, which is what Apple found out with Final Cut.

01:06:44   You know, you can make something that's newer and better.

01:06:47   Look at Microsoft, right? Windows 10. Was it 10 or 7? The one where they completely changed the UI. 7, right? They completely changed the UI and then went back in 8. So basically what it was like before.

01:06:58   Yeah, because it's, you know, you've got, you want to advance your platform, but you've got people who don't want change.

01:07:02   And so how do you, you know, your existing users are your biggest asset in a lot of ways. So that'll be a challenge for Adobe too.

01:07:10   But I don't know. I think it's interesting though that Adobe, after all of this, has finally kind of like come around to the idea that the iPad is a platform that they want their apps to be on.

01:07:22   I do think that they're part of what's going in here is that they need to do the work to understand how you do a touch and tablet interface for Windows, right?

01:07:32   For Windows 10, because Microsoft very much wants that to be, you know, that to be a primary experience, not just the keyboard and mouse driven cursor based kind of interface.

01:07:43   And so people want that on Windows and they want it on iPad. And that's basically the same problem interface wise.

01:07:50   So, you know, Adobe gets to think about all of that and release a new generation of Photoshop that runs on those devices too.

01:07:58   This is probably going to be big for the iPad, right? Like I feel like people that already use the iPad for creative work are going to love it.

01:08:08   And it's going to push a lot of people that weren't using it to buy one, because if it truly is like this, this, the same thing everywhere.

01:08:17   For a lot of creative people, I guess wouldn't it be lovely to use your like device at home, which has a tablet attached to it like a Wacom.

01:08:26   And then when you're on the go, instead of taking a laptop and a Wacom with you, you just get your iPad and your Apple pencil and you're good to go.

01:08:33   I feel like it's going to be really big for a lot of people.

01:08:38   Yeah. And people will say, oh, well, that's silly because they could do it today. And it's like, yes, they could.

01:08:42   And yet then when I talk to somebody like Jen Bartel, what she says is, you know, I, but I really can't because there are very specific things in my job that require Photoshop.

01:08:51   There are like, there are brushes that Photoshop offers that she uses that are not in other apps.

01:08:58   And the apps that they're in are these little Adobe apps that don't work well enough for her to do what she needs to do.

01:09:04   And there are just, there are a lot of people who are like that. They're not all, they're not all being stubborn, right?

01:09:08   Some of it is that they just, they have something in their workflow that they built up across all her other devices.

01:09:13   And they're not going to throw it all away just so that they can also use the iPad.

01:09:18   Right. Because there are some times where I have to use Word. Right?

01:09:24   Like there's something I need to do and I need Word for it. And I have no other option. I have to use Word.

01:09:30   And so that's what I'll have to use. Right? Like it's a similar kind of idea where I typically don't use Word.

01:09:35   I typically use Pages. But sometimes someone will send me something and the only way I can format this is actually using Word.

01:09:44   It's just kind of how it is and then I can do about it. Yeah. So similar kind of idea.

01:09:50   I do think this would probably be awkward for Microsoft because a selling point of the Surface right now is that it is a tablet with a stylus that runs for Photoshop.

01:10:00   I think it is a big selling point for the Surface and that selling point would go away.

01:10:05   And I think that's going to be awkward for them because I think a lot of people, given the choice, would go with an iPad over a Surface.

01:10:16   But I think there are many people that make the choice to go Surface because Surface has Windows apps on it. Full Windows apps on it.

01:10:24   Yeah. Surface or like I mentioned, like, you know, other companies that are coupling really high quality, you know, tablet and pen technology on a PC that's running Windows 10.

01:10:37   And they have the advantage now because those devices, you talk to artists like those devices let them use the tools that they use at home when they travel.

01:10:47   Whereas with the iPad, you're left using weird tools that are just on the iPad.

01:10:51   And it's not that the iPad screens aren't great, like the new iPad Pro screens, and I imagine the newer ones will be even better, of course.

01:10:58   But with the ProMotion and the high resolution digitizer for the Apple Pencil, it's great hardware, right?

01:11:10   But the problem is that the software that they expect to be there to do their job isn't there.

01:11:15   And it is on Windows. So that is an advantage that Microsoft loses if this happens.

01:11:21   Super excited to see what this looks like in a couple of months. Like, I think we're going to see in September, but if we don't, we'll see in October.

01:11:27   But I would be flabbergasted. It's going to be one of my draft picks. I've got to remember to pick that one, right? Like, Adobe on stage. Very important.

01:11:35   Somebody tweet at me when we say we're doing the draft and tell me that I need to pick Adobe. That would be very useful. Thank you for your service.

01:11:43   All right, so let's take a final break and I have a summer of fun topic, Jason, that I want to do today. I have a summer of fun dealio.

01:11:52   But today I want to talk about a new sponsor for the show, and that is Green Chef. Green Chef is a meal delivery service that includes everything you need to cook delicious gourmet meals that you can feel good about.

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01:12:54   I actually got the veggie box, which is interesting. That was of all of the choices, the one that fit the best with what our diets are in this house because we have like very specific meat things that we don't do.

01:13:05   And I am a little bit skeptical of vegetarian cuisine. I was raised by people from the Midwest. Arguable. There's a Robot or Not episode about that.

01:13:17   But anyway, so I'm skeptical of like vegetarian meals, but they were really good. There was a this like corn cakes thing that was like it was a corn and feta cheese and there was like the cucumber in it.

01:13:31   And it was these they were so good. And there was also a Pad Thai that I made. Lauren made the corn cake one and it was so good.

01:13:39   But I made the Pad Thai and it was incredibly tasty. The ingredients were high quality. I really like I hate chopping vegetables.

01:13:49   And one of the things that I was impressed by about the Green Chef stuff is that a lot of it comes in.

01:13:55   It's already chopped or it's already like if you need a quarter of a something, it gives you a quarter of a something and then you can chop that up.

01:14:03   And it's so there was a lot less food prep than I was kind of dreading. Honestly, it was super easy to make and they taste really good.

01:14:12   Even though I do eat meat and was skeptical of the vegetarian meals. I was impressed. They were they were super tasty, very good and easy to make.

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01:14:59   All right. So my summer fun topic for you, Jason, is the perfect iOS device.

01:15:07   So I thought there was way too much Mac stuff in in that episode that you do with Steven.

01:15:14   So I want to rebalance it out now that I'm back, even though the full iPad episode. But shush, don't worry about that.

01:15:20   So I want I was in when I was in San Francisco, I went to a Microsoft store, saw a Microsoft store.

01:15:25   So I went in there and looked around because they had the Surface Studio there and I've never seen one of those.

01:15:29   So I wanted to kind of just like poke around at it and pick it up, put it down, that kind of thing.

01:15:34   They also had Surface Books there as well. They're interesting devices, right? Because they are these hybrid devices.

01:15:40   And we've spoken about this a bunch. You know, we've spoken about the possibility of an iBook, right?

01:15:45   Like an iOS laptop. We've spoken about that. But whilst that might be a device which seems like a good idea,

01:15:50   I kind of thought, what if we if we were given free rein, if Johnny Johnny came over and he's like,

01:15:56   hey, guys, come into my white room and we went in there and it's all white in there and he goes.

01:16:01   You can make whatever you want here. Free rein to create your own iOS hardware.

01:16:07   We will do whatever you want and create a new product in your vision.

01:16:14   I want to know what it would look like. And we'll both go through this together.

01:16:18   I have a couple of areas, like a couple of key areas to talk about and we can just see what happens.

01:16:23   So for you, if you were given the opportunity to create your own iOS device, first off,

01:16:30   would it be desktop or laptop and what would the form factor look like?

01:16:35   Ah, boy. Oh, this power, Myke, this power concerns me now.

01:16:40   I don't I don't want to wield it in great power. Jason comes great responsibility.

01:16:45   Myke, I am creating a tablet.

01:16:50   Okay. Not a desktop, not a laptop. I'm going to create a tablet.

01:16:57   What attaches to the tablet? So I mean, we could say I could I could spend this the other way.

01:17:03   I'm creating a a laptop, but really I'm not. I'm creating a tablet that can become laptop like.

01:17:11   That's what I want. Okay. So what does that mean? Is it like it has a detachable keyboard that has a hinge in it?

01:17:19   Right. Yeah. Honestly, what I want is I want something very much like what I've got now,

01:17:24   where I've got the twelve point nine inch iPad Pro and the bridge keyboard.

01:17:27   I want a large iPad Pro like tablet that has a dock basically that's like the bridge keyboard that's got something where I can attach it.

01:17:38   And now it behaves like a laptop. There's no kickstand on the back.

01:17:42   It's not going to be kind of all like almost falling off.

01:17:46   If I put it on my lap like I want it to be solid. I'd like it to be in this case,

01:17:51   since it's going to be physically attached that way,

01:17:53   I want it to be using a smart connector of some sort so that it's not I don't have to deal with Bluetooth pairing.

01:17:58   I don't have to deal with charging it or anything like that.

01:18:01   I want all of that together. And of course, unlike my bridge keyboard, this would have a trackpad at the bottom.

01:18:08   Oh, okay. Okay. Right. So that's that's in the the the overarching view.

01:18:15   That's basically what I want. What I want is an iPad that's dockable into an accessory made by Apple.

01:18:22   That is a full keyboard and trackpad that allows me to move the cursor on the screen because you can already do text insert insertion cursor.

01:18:30   And I hope that will grow to other things as time goes on and type and have it auto connect and work like a laptop.

01:18:38   But let me pop it out on a moment's notice and turn it back into tablet mode.

01:18:43   One quick question for you. The hinge itself, does it do that 180 thing where you flip it around or is it just laptop like the form factor?

01:18:51   Just laptop or is it one of those just laptop? Just laptop.

01:18:54   Just laptop because I don't want if if I want a tablet, I want to be able to just take it out.

01:18:58   I don't want double the thin tablet. Yeah, thin tablet. Exactly.

01:19:01   So of course, I want this device. Right. And I want the the I want that to be a laptop form factor for the iPad because that's how I tend to use my iPad.

01:19:12   Right. Is in a laptop form factor. And I would love that.

01:19:15   But one of the reasons that I talk about this and I think one of the reasons that we all focus on it is because it seems like the most natural, obvious next step for the hardware.

01:19:26   Right. To to become a little bit more laptop like which Apple have been moving towards kind of shift in, shift in, shift in.

01:19:32   But the thing is, I already have a mobile iOS device. It's my iPad. What I want is a big desktop iOS device.

01:19:46   I want the iMac of iOS. That's what I want, because while I'm at home, I use my 12 inch iPad, especially now with the plethora of stands I'm using.

01:19:58   Right. I use it fixed in position with a keyboard. I want to be able to have a 25, 28 inch screen, which is not incredibly heavy, movable.

01:20:11   Maybe is there some kind of little like articulated arm I could use or whatever.

01:20:17   So I could bring it down if I wanted to and touch on it. But it's like, you know, it's not it's not it's not like it's it weights itself, but still kind of can be moved around.

01:20:27   Right. Like so in theory, I could move it to somewhere else in the house if I wanted to. Right.

01:20:32   So maybe it's still got a battery in it. Right. Maybe it's not completely plugged in all the time.

01:20:37   So it's still somewhat movable, but not a portable. It is it is intended to live at home or in an office.

01:20:45   It is this device which kind of stays as it is, but doesn't completely lose the portability.

01:20:50   Right. Like it's more movable than our desktop computers are right now, whether you have a hipster bag or not.

01:20:56   Right. Like it's that's the whole deal with it. But it is a desktop version because when I am here at home, that's kind of how I use my iPads.

01:21:05   I have my 10 inch iPad to take with me when I go places and I have my 12 inch iPad, which I use kind of just fixed in position.

01:21:12   And I sometimes think to myself, wouldn't it be nice to have an even bigger one?

01:21:17   I'm really happy that you went this way because that was the other thing I thought about asking about, because those to me like and we could talk about like a straight up laptop.

01:21:25   But and I think that that Apple could make that, although there is that question of like if Apple's actually with unifying the app platforms doesn't need to make that, which is why I kind of like the core reason that I travel with the iPad is that I love it as a tablet.

01:21:40   And if it was a laptop, I would love it less if it could only be a laptop because I want it to be a tablet.

01:21:46   But the other part of it is absolutely the, you know, surface studio style desktop iOS device that we don't have yet.

01:21:54   And it would have all those issues where it would need to be functional in a keyboard and pointer mode of some sort to a certain degree, which it wouldn't be today.

01:22:03   And it would need to be ergonomically very different, like the surface studio is where you could really position it in different ways so that you could have kind of a very touch oriented view of it, or you could kind of back it off and have that keyboard driven version of it.

01:22:20   And we've used things like that Vias on stand enough to know like, you can do it, but the ergonomics are going to be really important in how you do sort of that.

01:22:29   And I think for me, those are the two iOS devices that I would like to see the best the most.

01:22:34   I think they're still depending on Apple strategy, having something that's like a straight up laptop that runs iOS that would be, you know, cost what an iPad, like right, like a $600 laptop that runs iOS.

01:22:49   I think that would be really interesting, but it's not what I want.

01:22:53   So like I was thinking about this, this, this device here, right. And even when you were mentioning about the trackpad, of course, I would want a trackpad.

01:23:01   But I am also again, this is like this is a super difficult thing. I'm also keen to understand like, what else could there be?

01:23:08   No, I don't think we have any answers to this. But if you're thinking about, you know, we went from all keyboard control to having mice, and then we went from keyboard and mouse to having trackpads.

01:23:21   And then we went from that touch screens. Like, is there another step that could be taken for a device which is kind of like iOS, but you're controlling it less of your like less direct input with your hands?

01:23:35   Like, I wonder like, you know, we have styluses too, right? That's another one. We have all these different input methods. Like, is that necessarily the best one? Is there something else? I don't know.

01:23:44   But that would be interesting to think about too, because I don't know if like taking this device and then putting a cursor, like just like a mouse cursor on it is like the best way to interact with it.

01:23:55   Like, I don't know what that is. Maybe there's something else, you know, maybe there's some kind of sensor that can track things in a certain way, like so you can move your hands but not have them on the screen, something like that.

01:24:08   I keep thinking of what we have with face ID and that sensor and how kind of we didn't believe that was possible. And then they made it possible. And I do wonder about sensors, since Apple has spent a lot of time on sensor technology and also on kind of machine learning and things like that, like,

01:24:23   is there an interface that lets you look? Right? Like literally like look and gesture?

01:24:31   It sounds wild, but that's not, you know, like, it could work though, right? Like, you know, we don't know what those interfaces look like, but it feels like something that could happen now, you know, especially as we move more into like, a lot of things that are happening in VR and AR and mixed reality and stuff is using these sensors and controllers, right?

01:24:54   The controllers have interesting sensors in them, like, so for example, the Oculus controller, it has touch sensors in the buttons, so it knows whether you've just got your finger on the button or you've pressed the button, right?

01:25:06   Right. They interact differently. So that's kind of like, that's a click, push to click. So that's, you know, there are, there's a lot of interesting stuff going, taking sensors and using them slightly differently.

01:25:19   And I would love to know what that looked like. What is the version of a trackpad for a device, which is kind of this, this touch thing? So I think there's something in there as well.

01:25:30   But I want to talk about the software, right? Because my device, so what screen size are you thinking of, by the way, for your laptop?

01:25:39   12 or 13.

01:25:41   Okay. So by and large, we can assume that the software can kind of do its thing, unless you were thinking, is it always iOS?

01:25:48   Yeah, no, this is, this is another piece of this, which is I'm going to, I'm going to put it out there since we're dreaming here, that since you're going to be able to write apps next year that run on iOS and run on the Mac and on the Mac, they get a menu bar and stuff like that.

01:26:07   I want to at least consider the option that when I attach that keyboard and trackpad, that the interface changes to say, oh, you've got a keyboard and a trackpad. I can do more stuff. I can show a menu bar.

01:26:22   You know, I can, or whether it's a menu bar or something different.

01:26:26   It doesn't turn into a Mac, but it becomes more Mac like.

01:26:30   Because the apps could run the way they would look perhaps on a Mac laptop in that scenario. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it would be bad.

01:26:38   You know, I don't know, but I'm intrigued by that idea that once, you know, because right now in iOS, when you attach a keyboard, whether it's the smart, the smart keyboard or whether it's a Bluetooth keyboard, all that really happens is that the keyboard slides away.

01:26:55   The onscreen keyboard, but you could do more like it could be understanding like, oh, look, pointing device and keyboard just got attached.

01:27:04   I can be different and change to an interface that's slightly different, especially if it's already being built because that app is going to run on the iPad on the Mac. Maybe I can get that menu bar too.

01:27:14   Maybe. I think that I would want a lot of similar things that you've mentioned for mine, but I'm not interested in Windows. Not interested in having Windows.

01:27:25   I'm good with like, you can have up to eight apps on screen at one time and you move them around as you need them.

01:27:32   Or like a mission control kind of, you know, multiple even windows of like, this one's got two on it and this one's got one on it and I can swipe between them.

01:27:39   Yeah. So you can go between screens, right? But I'm not interested in infinitely sizable windows of a desktop underneath like that.

01:27:48   I'm sorry, everyone, but that just it feels really old to me now. Like when I sit on my Mac and I look at this stuff, I'm like, this looks like old stuff.

01:27:56   It looks like legacy stuff. And I know this upsets so many people, but I'm so much in the iOS mindset these days of like how I like my devices to be that I look at Windows and it's just like,

01:28:07   everything's kind of the wrong size and it's all overlapping each other in awkward ways. I like my system to do it for me.

01:28:14   I don't really like the way that Mac OS implements it. It doesn't feel right to me. I like the way it feels on iOS because I move it all with my hands.

01:28:22   This is the tactileness to it that I like. So if I was going to have this, this 28 inch screen, I would like to be able to have like apps on it at one time and can move them all around as I need to.

01:28:32   Yeah, I kind of agree with that, that it will be not like free floating windows so much as maybe like tiled, different kind of tile preferences.

01:28:39   And on a big screen, maybe you say, look, I want this full screen or I want this with a thing on the side or a couple of things on the sides and one that floats in, like slide over, something similar.

01:28:51   That would presumably also get you some of the things that I know you and Gray have talked about, which I fully endorse, which is the idea of like, you know, having gestures or keyboard shortcuts that will let you set multitasking.

01:29:02   So you could very quickly say, take this app and put it over on the left and have it just do that instead of having to, you know, click on or tap on an item in the dock and drag it and put it in.

01:29:12   Still holding out for that with iOS 13. Next time there's actually the iPad again.

01:29:17   Right, a little more. Well, I feel like, yeah, I feel like when they have take the iPad more seriously, if they also are taking the keyboard uses of the iPad more seriously, that would be the perfect time to do it.

01:29:27   So maybe it'll happen. Maybe it'll happen then. But yeah, I, I, I, I, even though as I'm, I'm an old school windowing arbitrarily, any size, any place kind of person, I have a hard time imagining that a future iOS with a big screen would just kind of give up and go back to running that.

01:29:46   Windows. Like I just don't see them doing that.

01:29:49   So there you go, Johnny. There's two, two great devices for you to make, you know, we just sorted out the next 20 years or something. So you go for it.

01:29:58   You can take those ones for free. Maybe just send us one, you know, once you make it, that'd be great. Maybe we get in advance a little bit. That'd be lovely.

01:30:05   If you'd like to find our show notes for this week, you can head on over to relay.fm/upgrades/204 or check them out in your podcast app of choice.

01:30:15   Um, if you've enjoyed the show, maybe you would enjoy some of our other shows. Both me and Jason hosts, host many, many podcasts here at relay.fm.

01:30:24   Go to relay.fm/shows and you can find more of what we do. There's lots of great content there for you to check out.

01:30:30   You can find Jason online at sixcolors.com and he is @jsnell, J S N E double L on Twitter.

01:30:38   Should people follow the Six Colors Live account for the earnings or is that, are you going to, are you going to do that?

01:30:45   Yes, we'll do that in some form tomorrow. Tuesday, sorry, I should say, because not everybody listens on Monday. So if you, it is not yet Tuesday afternoon Pacific, you can follow Six Colors events and, or just go and there'll be a Twitter embed on sixcolors.com.

01:31:01   Great. So you can check those out there because you've got to, you know, when this is Tim, uh, we want to see when that's happening and that's how you'll find out that it's Tim because Jason and Dan will tell you.

01:31:11   Uh, you can find me on Twitter @imike, I M Y K E. Thanks so much to Green Chef, Pingdom and Smile for their support of this show.

01:31:20   But most of all, thank you for listening. Oh, Ask Upgrade will be back next week. Um, #AskUpgrade if you have any questions you'd like us to answer. If you want to open the show, #SnellTalk.

01:31:31   The summer of fun rolls on everyone. Until next time, say goodbye Jason Snell.

01:31:36   Goodbye everybody.

01:31:37   [Music]