Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, Episode 202 for July 16th, 2018. I am your host, Jason

00:00:18 ◼   ► Snell, and not Myke Hurley, who is not here. He is on assignment, and his assignment was

00:00:23 ◼   ► to go on his honeymoon. We assigned that as a collective. We said, "No more podcasting

00:00:28 ◼   ► for you. Go on your honeymoon." And so, our special guest to replace Myke, well, who could

00:00:33 ◼   ► replace Myke? To succeed Myke for one week only, it is, of course, another co-founder

00:00:39 ◼   ► of Relay. Why not? Steven Hackett, hello. Yeah, just, you close your eyes and squint,

00:00:44 ◼   ► we're basically the same person. We both have beards. Yeah, I mean, really, if you're face

00:00:48 ◼   ► blind but not beard blind, then you're like basically the same person as far as I'm concerned.

00:00:52 ◼   ► We both co-founded Podcast Networks. You both have, um, uh, I was going to make an accent

00:00:58 ◼   ► joke but I don't really know what that would be. We both have American accents. Yeah, by

00:01:05 ◼   ► the way, because Myke likes to do this even though I never do it, this episode of Upgrade

00:01:09 ◼   ► is brought to you by MailRoute, Pingdom, and Anchor. Anyway, I said that like how Myke

00:01:13 ◼   ► says it. We are here, it is the summer of fun. What is more fun than having a co-host

00:01:18 ◼   ► who is a surprise like Steven Hackett? So, welcome, Steven, to the summer of fun. It's

00:01:24 ◼   ► bright in here. I really, you said it and all the lights got brighter and someone handed

00:01:29 ◼   ► me a drink with a fancy straw. Did you see here there's a little ukulele playing in the

00:01:33 ◼   ► background. I've got a good microphone so I can hear it but you can't hear it. But it's

00:01:38 ◼   ► here. That's the best kind. That's the best kind. You know, when my wife was growing up,

00:01:43 ◼   ► her dad, when they took family car trips, would say, "We can listen to the radio but

00:01:48 ◼   ► it needs to, the volume needs to be so, turned so far down that you can hear it and I can't."

00:01:53 ◼   ► Which I always thought was like, first off, that's impossible and also kind of mean. But

00:01:58 ◼   ► anyway, that's how the ukulele music is tuned in your house. It's just loud enough that

00:02:03 ◼   ► you can hear it but we can't. Jason, Jason, no one cares about ukulele music. No? Not

00:02:09 ◼   ► even Don Ho? We have a snail talk question. Oh, good, I'm excited. This is from Mark.

00:02:15 ◼   ► Mark writes, "If you had a boat, what would you name it?" I think this may be the dumbest

00:02:24 ◼   ► snail talk question ever. Or the best. Well, I don't have a boat. But you know how, yeah,

00:02:32 ◼   ► right, boats have ridiculous pun names on the background. I have not, I, it would take

00:02:38 ◼   ► time, I would need to workshop a bunch of stuff, I think. I, let's call it professional

00:02:46 ◼   ► podcasters. Ooh, that's good. That's good. That's, let's just, I'll throw it in there

00:02:52 ◼   ► for now. That'll be my placeholder name. I'll come up with a better boat name, probably

00:02:56 ◼   ► between now and when I buy a boat, which is never. You never know. But thank you, Mark,

00:03:01 ◼   ► for the ridiculous #snelltalkquestion. You can send your own #snelltalkquestions in by

00:03:06 ◼   ► tweeting with #snelltalkintothevoid, but the hashtag means they won't be into the void,

00:03:11 ◼   ► they will instead appear in a spreadsheet that is accessible by Myke and also apparently

00:03:17 ◼   ► Steven, and then they get read to me. It's a continuing, ongoing experiment where I am

00:03:25 ◼   ► the subject. We got a little follow-up. My follow-up is, "What time zone are you in

00:03:30 ◼   ► right now, Steven?" And I don't mean Memphis time, I mean where is your body time right

00:03:34 ◼   ► now? Because you and I recently went very far away. Yes. And for me it was, on the way

00:03:43 ◼   ► out it was nine hours forward and then coming back it was eight hours back because I made

00:03:48 ◼   ► a time change in the middle of my trip. So how are you doing? I'm great. So, I don't

00:03:56 ◼   ► know what happened. I go to the West Coast, you know, for work, and I'm destroyed. I

00:04:01 ◼   ► go to London, which is many more time zones away, and I had basically very little adjustment

00:04:08 ◼   ► to do when I got there and even less adjustment to do when I got back. I'm totally fine.

00:04:12 ◼   ► I don't know how I have this superpower. It's the world's worst superpower, but I

00:04:17 ◼   ► have it. I seem to be impervious to jet lag on this trip. That's amazing. That's amazing.

00:04:22 ◼   ► How lucky for you? I don't know. It's all the vitamins I think and the ukulele music.

00:04:27 ◼   ► This is brutal for me. This was a hard one. I think two weeks in that time zone made it

00:04:35 ◼   ► harder. I think part of it might also be like, oftentimes when I make these international

00:04:40 ◼   ► trips it's just me and this time it was my whole family. And I think that I suspect

00:04:44 ◼   ► that my family helps me adjust because they're all on Pacific Time schedule and then I'm

00:04:51 ◼   ► jet lagged and so they're all getting up at seven in the morning or whatever and going

00:04:57 ◼   ► to bed at eleven o'clock or whatever and I kind of get into sync with that. But we

00:05:02 ◼   ► were all jet lagged this time. And it's summer so the kids are not, they don't need

00:05:07 ◼   ► to get up. My wife is also jet lagged. So I think that made it harder for me. I feel

00:05:17 ◼   ► like I've kind of gotten it back now, but it's been a week. We got back a week ago

00:05:21 ◼   ► today. So it was, but it was, I had a lot of five a.m. wake ups, which I don't recommend.

00:05:31 ◼   ► In the middle of summer to wake up and it's still dark and you get up anyway, no, it's

00:05:37 ◼   ► no good. And a lot of falling asleep at like nine or like eight thirty where it's like,

00:05:45 ◼   ► no, no, no, got to stay awake. Got to stay awake. But yeah, so that was tough. But it

00:05:51 ◼   ► was a great trip. We had a great time. So you and your wife went and you left the kids

00:05:55 ◼   ► behind and how many days were you there? We were there for seven. So we did Tuesday through

00:06:00 ◼   ► Tuesday and spoke on this on analog, which you can listen to in a couple of days, but

00:06:06 ◼   ► longest trip we've ever taken together, longer than our honeymoon. And it was really great.

00:06:10 ◼   ► I'm really bad at vacation. I did basically just one morning's worth of work for an entire

00:06:15 ◼   ► week, which felt great. Yeah, that was the paid all of us. Thank you. I paid all of you.

00:06:20 ◼   ► So I figured a lot of really people on vacation, I'm on vacation. I'd like to get paid. Yeah.

00:06:25 ◼   ► So we did that. You spend money, get more money to spend. Yeah, that's right. You are

00:06:30 ◼   ► bad at vacation if seven days away is longer than your honeymoon. Yeah, well, we got married

00:06:34 ◼   ► in college and we had like no money. I could take, I could take four days off from the

00:06:38 ◼   ► Apple store, so I guess I'll take four days off from the Apple store. But, um, you know,

00:06:42 ◼   ► it's, it's, we're in a different time and era of life now. Yeah, it was really good.

00:06:47 ◼   ► And it was a lot of fun to see a bunch of people and to meet people, significant others.

00:06:51 ◼   ► Um, you know, Jason, we have met each other's families, but that's not true for everybody

00:06:56 ◼   ► who was there from like the podcast world. So like it was really great to spend time

00:07:00 ◼   ► with other people's significant others and their partners. And it was a lot of fun. And,

00:07:05 ◼   ► um, London was a lot of fun. I had not been, uh, to England before, which seems shocking

00:07:11 ◼   ► to some people, but I haven't been. And, um, that was, that was great. And I think Myke

00:07:17 ◼   ► and I may start to trade off. Uh, I think people know in August, most years we kind

00:07:21 ◼   ► of have a retreat and I think we may start trading off and maybe I'll go over some, I

00:07:24 ◼   ► think, especially once they get settled into family life a little bit more. That's a great,

00:07:28 ◼   ► um, way to get yourself some trips to London. Yeah. Who's to say, let's do it both ways.

00:07:35 ◼   ► Myke let's, uh, and he may say, no, no, no, Steven, no, no. Uh, maybe you can settle on

00:07:40 ◼   ► like every six months just trading off because you guys both need your, uh, international

00:07:47 ◼   ► international trips. It's a, it's a lot of fun. I didn't make an international trip.

00:07:52 ◼   ► Well, I didn't leave North America until I was almost 30. Um, but the last 15 or so years

00:07:59 ◼   ► have been full of, uh, international trips and they're great. They're a lot of fun. And

00:08:04 ◼   ► my kids actually managed to, I think, have a good time, especially my daughter who's

00:08:09 ◼   ► 16. I think she ended up having a good time. Um, and that was my concern. Like we were

00:08:14 ◼   ► building the trip, trying to include things that they would be interested in and not just

00:08:18 ◼   ► boring things like looking at paintings. Yeah. Um, because that was the, I think, I don't

00:08:23 ◼   ► know if I mentioned this last week on this show, but I mentioned it somewhere that, that

00:08:26 ◼   ► at the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam, they were so bored of looking at, you know, amazing

00:08:31 ◼   ► Dutch masters paintings, but they were so bored at that point that they were like counting

00:08:36 ◼   ► the number of cats that they could find in various paintings, which is actually a pretty

00:08:41 ◼   ► good, pretty good way to pass the time. That would be a fun scavenger hunt, but I mean,

00:08:45 ◼   ► they were so bored. I had that moment with my spouse. We're in the science museum and

00:08:49 ◼   ► they have a computer collection and I was just like taking notes and like, well, they

00:08:52 ◼   ► have this, but I have that too. Or they don't have this, but I have one of those. And, uh,

00:08:59 ◼   ► Mary was like, I'm going to go. Yeah. I'm going to let you, you be alone with your computers

00:09:03 ◼   ► now for a little while as it is so often. Yeah. Um, I have a mini topic before we get

00:09:11 ◼   ► to the rest of the show that I wanted to mention something that happened last week, which is,

00:09:15 ◼   ► uh, uh, it's kind of follow up kind of mini topic because we've been talking about it

00:09:18 ◼   ► on upgrade for a while now. And it finally happened, which is that Sonos released their

00:09:22 ◼   ► software update that gives, I want to say all their speakers, but it's really not all

00:09:27 ◼   ► their speakers. It's like four of their speakers, uh, Airplay 2. And so it's the Play 5, the

00:09:34 ◼   ► Sonos 1, the Play Bar, and the new one whose name escapes me, the brand new one they announced,

00:09:44 ◼   ► but it's, it's a relatively recent collection and it's the, it's the second generation Play

00:09:48 ◼   ► 5. So it's a relatively recent collection of, of devices, not the Play 1, the Sonos 1,

00:09:54 ◼   ► the one with the Amazon assistant in it. I have a, I have a Play 1 and, uh, yeah, it's,

00:10:01 ◼   ► it's, they've got colons too. I should call it like it's the Play colon 1 and the Play

00:10:05 ◼   ► colon 5 that I have, uh, that it's really rolls off the tongue. Beautiful names. Um,

00:10:11 ◼   ► so anyway, I do have that Play 5, so I updated the software and, uh, Airplay 2 is really

00:10:17 ◼   ► good. Like I know it took a long time for them to get it, but I'm really impressed with

00:10:22 ◼   ► how well it works. And the thing, cause I've got a couple of home pods. The thing that

00:10:26 ◼   ► impressed me the most about it is that, you know, a Sonos speaker running Airplay 2 is

00:10:33 ◼   ► a peer to other Airplay 2 speakers. So I was able to connect the Play 5 and the paired

00:10:40 ◼   ► home pods and they played music in perfect sync. I could play music on the home pods

00:10:46 ◼   ► and then say also, I could say, Hey lady, Hey canister, also play this in the garage

00:10:52 ◼   ► and boop, the sound just began coming out of the Sonos Play 5 in the garage. Just flawless.

00:10:58 ◼   ► Just yeah, it's really fast. It's like the dream, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's super fast.

00:11:02 ◼   ► Unlike Airplay, which has got that two second buffer, it all feels very instantaneous. And

00:11:07 ◼   ► that buffer was just long enough for you to think that it was broken, right? Like you

00:11:10 ◼   ► go hit, you hit the button again and then it plays for a split second and pauses, which

00:11:14 ◼   ► is always fun. You can too, I believe if you have one of these quote modern Sonos devices

00:11:21 ◼   ► and you have a bunch of older ones too, that new one can act like a bridge to the other

00:11:28 ◼   ► ones. Yeah, that is an amazing feature. It requires you to fiddle around with the Sonos

00:11:33 ◼   ► app, but people were asking about this and cause they couldn't wrap their mind around

00:11:37 ◼   ► it when I wrote about it, but it's, so my Play 1 that isn't compatible. If I go into

00:11:41 ◼   ► the Sonos app and select the Play 5 and say group and add the Play 1 to the Play 5's group.

00:11:50 ◼   ► At that point, everything that plays on the Play 5 plays on the Play 1, including all

00:11:55 ◼   ► the Airplay stuff. So if I say, that does mean that if I say to my HomePods, play this

00:12:00 ◼   ► in the garage, it will also play it in the bathroom where the Play 1 is, right? Cause

00:12:04 ◼   ► they're, they're linked. But if you want to chain every device, including non-compatible

00:12:10 ◼   ► Sonos devices, compatible Sonos devices, and other Airplay 2 devices into one big, you

00:12:15 ◼   ► know, whole home thing, you can totally do it. And then somebody was asking about volume

00:12:20 ◼   ► and yeah, those two volumes, if you try to adjust volume on those Sonos speakers from

00:12:24 ◼   ► the Airplay side, they go together. But if you open the Sonos app, you can then adjust

00:12:30 ◼   ► them individually. So it's not perfect, but I feel like it's way more than you would expect

00:12:38 ◼   ► from that feature. I would expect that the other Sonos things just, when it's Airplay

00:12:42 ◼   ► 2, forget about them. They don't exist anymore. And that's not how they built it. They all

00:12:47 ◼   ► work together, sort of as a linked single Airplay 2 speaker using the Sonos, you know,

00:12:53 ◼   ► in the background, obviously Sonos is doing Sonos things to connect those other speakers,

00:12:57 ◼   ► but they've got that all built in. So I was pretty impressed. It's a cool feature. And

00:13:04 ◼   ► I'm impressed by Airplay 2, as long as it took to get it. I think it is good and Sonos

00:13:12 ◼   ► did a good job of supporting it on the devices that they were, apparently there's enough

00:13:17 ◼   ► hardware like processing power going on here that a bunch of their devices are just not

00:13:22 ◼   ► powerful enough to do it, which is too bad. It also means that that Sonos One at $199

00:13:28 ◼   ► is you know, pretty compelling. Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty good deal. It doesn't sound

00:13:33 ◼   ► as good as the HomePod, but it's way cheaper than the HomePod. So yeah.

00:13:36 ◼   ► Yeah. And Sonos continues to be a brand that is trying to work with everybody else.

00:13:41 ◼   ► Right.

00:13:42 ◼   ► Which I think is very admirable. There's Amazon stuff, there's Apple stuff. They're

00:13:45 ◼   ► the only non-Apple speaker that has like Apple Music sort of baked in.

00:13:49 ◼   ► You can't, I keep thinking that it would be great, but I think the Siri APIs don't

00:13:54 ◼   ► let them do this. It would be great if I could use a Siri command to tell a Sonos speaker

00:13:59 ◼   ► to play music from Apple Music and have it just do it natively instead of from my phone

00:14:06 ◼   ► or whatever. And it doesn't do that. But it does mean this AirPlay 2 thing means that

00:14:11 ◼   ► I can use my phone or whatever, my Siri devices to say, "Play this song or play this album

00:14:19 ◼   ► on that Sonos speaker." And it'll do it. What it's doing is it's playing it in

00:14:23 ◼   ► Apple Music and then using AirPlay 2 to stream it to that speaker. But it does work. The

00:14:28 ◼   ► one caveat if you haven't tried this yet and you're thinking of setting it up if

00:14:32 ◼   ► you have a Sonos speaker is you'd have to add it in the Home app, which is a weird

00:14:36 ◼   ► process where you add an item to the Home app and it says, "What do you want to add?"

00:14:39 ◼   ► And you're like, "An accessory." And then it says, "Okay, scan in the barcode."

00:14:43 ◼   ► It's like, "No, there isn't one of those you have to say, 'I don't have a barcode.'"

00:14:47 ◼   ► And then it brings you to this thing that's like the complicated setup wizard. But the

00:14:52 ◼   ► funny thing is in that screen, the Sonos speaker is just sitting there like, "Oh, I found

00:14:58 ◼   ► this. Is this what you mean?" It's like, "Yes. Yes, Home app. That is what I mean."

00:15:02 ◼   ► And then once it's added, it works pretty well. There is a weird quirk that made me

00:15:08 ◼   ► laugh which is Sonos cautions you to not change the name of your speaker to be different.

00:15:17 ◼   ► So don't give it a different name in the Home app than you give it in the Sonos app

00:15:21 ◼   ► because apparently that means something. And that gets really confusing. But after I added

00:15:27 ◼   ► it, it worked pretty great. So I'm impressed.

00:15:30 ◼   ► Cool. I'm glad to hear it's working well.

00:15:32 ◼   ► Yeah. Yeah. So that's a nice... Good job. Good job, everybody. We got audio in more

00:15:37 ◼   ► places, and that makes me happy. We got a lot to talk about this week. We got a lot

00:15:42 ◼   ► of topics.

00:15:43 ◼   ► We do.

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00:18:57 ◼   ► in my email and supporting this show and all of Relay FM. New MacBook Pros happened. Surprise!

00:19:05 ◼   ► There was a question. You and I were going back and forth on this and I was talking to

00:19:07 ◼   ► Myke about it. Part of the calculation of the Summer of Fun is, we pre-taped a couple

00:19:13 ◼   ► of episodes. It's like when do they get deployed? And what I said to Myke was "Well, if there's

00:19:18 ◼   ► no news the week after we record Before You Go On Your Honeymoon, maybe I'll drop the

00:19:22 ◼   ► pre-recorded episode then because there will be nothing to talk about." That plan didn't

00:19:28 ◼   ► go very far because last week Apple released new MacBook Pros and they called a bunch of

00:19:36 ◼   ► people to New York City where they were greeted by media professionals who were doing this.

00:19:43 ◼   ► This seems to be a new trend in Apple's rollouts because they did this with the iMac Pro too.

00:19:48 ◼   ► It's like pro products. They have you meet with people who are professionals who are

00:19:52 ◼   ► using the technology to tell you why they're using it. So they're being much more aggressive

00:19:56 ◼   ► in building this narrative about big time professionals use these tools and here's why

00:20:03 ◼   ► they love them which is an interesting, very active marketing technique that maybe Apple

00:20:10 ◼   ► didn't use in the past where they're like "Yay, there are laptops." Now they seem to

00:20:13 ◼   ► be much more intense about this professional tool story. And I have some theories about

00:20:20 ◼   ► why, including the fact that I feel like Apple is actually trying very hard to impress on

00:20:25 ◼   ► people the idea that these products should be judged as professional products and not

00:20:29 ◼   ► as consumer products. I'm getting a real vibe. I was walking the dog yesterday and I had

00:20:36 ◼   ► this thought popped into my head which is "Apple's doing with the MacBook Pro what they did with

00:20:40 ◼   ► the Mac Pro." If you think about the Power Mac era especially, there was a time when

00:20:46 ◼   ► pro systems meant anybody who wasn't a base level consumer and over time on the desktop

00:20:52 ◼   ► side pro, you know, I used to only buy Power Macs and I stopped and started buying iMacs

00:21:02 ◼   ► and one of the reasons was pro went from being sort of all of the market except the low end

00:21:08 ◼   ► to being only the high end of the market. And I feel like that's what they're doing

00:21:12 ◼   ► with the MacBook Pro is that they really, and the iMac Pro, they really want to make

00:21:16 ◼   ► it clear like the reason that this thing costs so much is because they have packed it with

00:21:21 ◼   ► lots of expensive technology for people who really, really need it and it's not for everyone.

00:21:27 ◼   ► That is the kind of like implication I feel like of these dog and pony shows where they

00:21:31 ◼   ► bring out all the professional video editors and music video directors and things like

00:21:36 ◼   ► that.

00:21:37 ◼   ► Yeah, I think there's something to that. I would feel better about that if they had

00:21:41 ◼   ► a consumer notebook that made any sense but they don't.

00:21:44 ◼   ► Yeah, not yet. Although, it does feel like that's the other shoe to drop, right? There

00:21:49 ◼   ► may just be some Intel processors that need to ship for that because the whole, because

00:21:54 ◼   ► the MacBook escape, right, like which is really not a MacBook Pro and I'm now wondering

00:22:00 ◼   ► if that product is going to disappear or become something else because that's the other

00:22:06 ◼   ► part of the story, right? It's like, okay, Apple, if you're saying these are pro systems,

00:22:11 ◼   ► they're really only for pros, what's the consumer laptop store? What's the rest of

00:22:15 ◼   ► the market laptop store?

00:22:17 ◼   ► Yeah, I think that's a totally fair question because it does feel like there's this gap

00:22:23 ◼   ► there and Apple has like three machines down there. They have the Air, they have the one

00:22:28 ◼   ► port MacBook, they have the two port MacBook Pro and it's like there's a lot of overlap

00:22:33 ◼   ► there and only one of them, it really hits like the sort of magic price of $1,000 and

00:22:39 ◼   ► that one is several years old but it is like increasingly out of sync with the rest of

00:22:46 ◼   ► the lineup and so yeah, I agree with you. I think something's going on there. I do think

00:22:50 ◼   ► there's something to the idea that Apple is trying to define these machines as pro machines.

00:22:54 ◼   ► Like you said, we saw it with the iMac Pro. I am sure when the Mac Pro shows up next year,

00:23:00 ◼   ► we're going to see this again where it's like, look at all these top data scientists

00:23:04 ◼   ► doing their things on this new computer we built.

00:23:07 ◼   ► Totally and developers and again, video pros and anybody who's doing incredibly intense

00:23:14 ◼   ► high-end work because then it sets the context, right? Like when I got my iMac Pro, I basically,

00:23:24 ◼   ► I never got a briefing about the iMac Pro and I talked to my editor, Roman at Macworld

00:23:29 ◼   ► and he got a briefing and I said, "Well, I got my iMac Pro," and he said, "We didn't

00:23:32 ◼   ► even get one for review. They're not available." And I said, "Well, I can review it," and

00:23:37 ◼   ► he said, "Sure." So I contacted Apple and I said, "Okay, just so you know, my contacts

00:23:41 ◼   ► at Apple, I know you didn't give me one to review, but I've got one and I'm going to

00:23:46 ◼   ► review it."

00:23:47 ◼   ► And I got this, I got the sense back that it was like, "Well, great. We know who you

00:23:49 ◼   ► are. That's good." But there was also like a worry of like, "But wait, wait, wait. We

00:23:55 ◼   ► have this whole plan about only seating certain people and telling this whole story about

00:24:01 ◼   ► the high end." And I ended up having to reassure them, which they got. It was fine. And my

00:24:07 ◼   ► review got, it's the only thing I've written, I think, that has been retweeted by Phil Schiller,

00:24:11 ◼   ► right? So it worked in the end, but I had to kind of reassure them like, "You guys know

00:24:16 ◼   ► that I don't just write articles. I do audio production and some video production, and

00:24:22 ◼   ► I use high-end audio plugins that swamp every single core I can throw at it to do denoising

00:24:28 ◼   ► on noisy podcast tracks." And they're like, "Okay, all right." And I'm using Logic and

00:24:31 ◼   ► Final Cut Pro, and they're like, "All right. All right. We're okay with it." But they were

00:24:33 ◼   ► like really nervous about it because it is outside. They don't want, I mean, really it

00:24:38 ◼   ► seems like they don't want people thinking, "Oh, my kid is going off to college. I'm going

00:24:42 ◼   ► to buy them a six-core 15-inch MacBook Pro." They don't want people thinking that, which

00:24:47 ◼   ► is good because you look at the price tag and you're like, "Nah, you probably shouldn't

00:24:50 ◼   ► buy that for your kid going off to college." That's probably overkill for them. Of course,

00:24:54 ◼   ► there's nothing else right now. I mean, that is the other side of this.

00:24:57 ◼   ► But as these-

00:24:58 ◼   ► I still tell people to buy the Air. I mean, I get the same thing you get, right? You talk

00:25:01 ◼   ► to us on the show of like, you get friends like, "What should I buy my kid?" And my answer

00:25:05 ◼   ► is most of the time is the Air because, I mean, yes, it is older, but like you get a

00:25:12 ◼   ► bunch of ports that work in the real world. I mean, all the reasons the Air is still a

00:25:15 ◼   ► valid machine and it's the price, right? The MacBook and the Escape are what, $1,200, $1,300?

00:25:21 ◼   ► I think $1,299, I think is the price for those.

00:25:25 ◼   ► Yeah, I bought my daughter a refurbed MacBook. And so it was, I think, $1,199 or something

00:25:37 ◼   ► like that. It was a little bit cheaper and she loves it. And I think it's the perfect

00:25:42 ◼   ► computer for her. But before we dig in a little bit more to these laptops, I think it's worth

00:25:47 ◼   ► at least saying again, there is another shoe that needs to drop here, which is what is

00:25:53 ◼   ► Apple's story for the rest of the people who want to buy a Mac laptop because it is a mess,

00:25:59 ◼   ► right? Like at least the MacBook Escape, which for those who aren't in on the lingo, although

00:26:06 ◼   ► I did laugh because the Verge referred to the MacBook Escape this week and said it's

00:26:10 ◼   ► come to be how people in the community refer to that system, which I was like, "Well, it's

00:26:14 ◼   ► Marco." But the MacBook Escape is the 13-inch MacBook Pro without touch bar. In other words,

00:26:21 ◼   ► it has an escape key. So that's why it's the MacBook Escape. I like it because it sounds

00:26:26 ◼   ► like a Journey album, Journey Escape, MacBook Escape. It's like, "Don't stop believing,"

00:26:31 ◼   ► is what I'm saying. So the MacBook Escape, at least they lowered that price to $1,299

00:26:39 ◼   ► last year, right? So it's the same price as the MacBook. But in the long run, they've

00:26:43 ◼   ► got two $1,299 laptops at the base and then this $999 Legacy laptop that doesn't really

00:26:50 ◼   ► make sense. It's got the old ports, it's got the low-res screen, but it sticks around because

00:26:55 ◼   ► it's under $1,000 and the other ones are about $300 shy of that. So something's got to give

00:27:02 ◼   ► there, right? Like I had this moment of, because this is what happens with me, is I think about

00:27:08 ◼   ► this stuff at the strangest times. So I'm mowing the lawn, I'm walking the dog and I'm

00:27:12 ◼   ► like, "Oh, wait, what about that?" And I did have this thought yesterday, which was that

00:27:18 ◼   ► what if the MacBook Escape is the MacBook Air? Would you follow me here? All these rumors

00:27:23 ◼   ► about like, "Oh, there's going to be a new MacBook Air." I wonder, and maybe they won't

00:27:28 ◼   ► call it that, but I do wonder if that is the destination of that MacBook Escape, is that

00:27:33 ◼   ► it's finally going to be what it probably should have been all along, except maybe because

00:27:36 ◼   ► of the price, which is that's the other consumer laptop other than the super thin MacBook and

00:27:43 ◼   ► they find a way to drive its price down even more. And they have to give it a name, right?

00:27:49 ◼   ► It can't be the MacBook Pro anymore. So maybe it's the 13-inch MacBook. Maybe that's the

00:27:53 ◼   ► next MacBook Escape, is it's actually called the 13-inch MacBook, because it is not particularly

00:28:00 ◼   ► bigger or heavier than the Air. And if they can get it down low enough in price, they

00:28:05 ◼   ► can get rid of the Air, because then it would serve the same purpose as the Air. Or if they

00:28:09 ◼   ► could get that down to $1,199 or $1,099 and they could get the MacBook down to $999, that

00:28:16 ◼   ► would be the other way to do it. And I feel like that's, I think those are the scenarios

00:28:21 ◼   ► that are at play here. I have a harder time believing they will actually release the MacBook

00:28:26 ◼   ► Air with updated internals and a retina screen. I have a hard time imagining that happening.

00:28:35 ◼   ► Now, it's possible that they could just do a chip, another chip swap and make it still

00:28:40 ◼   ► float out there at $999 or even $799, something like that, just to hold down the bottom end.

00:28:46 ◼   ► But that MacBook Escape, sometimes I think that's kind of the key to solving this problem.

00:28:54 ◼   ► Where can that computer go? Because it doesn't need to be super thin and light. It's got

00:28:57 ◼   ► a couple of ports. It's using the same processor family essentially as the MacBook Air uses

00:29:02 ◼   ► except newer. And it's got the retina screen. It's like, that's the one that should be your

00:29:06 ◼   ► like core consumer laptop.

00:29:08 ◼   ► Yeah, I think I think that's totally right. I think they just haven't been able to price

00:29:14 ◼   ► it there, either due to the expense of the machine or margins or whatever it is. But

00:29:19 ◼   ► it that it just in this if you took all the price tags off the laptops and you covered

00:29:24 ◼   ► up all the names, that's I think the the product matrix you would build, right? Like if you

00:29:29 ◼   ► had those laptops on a table, you'd say, Oh, well, this air is old. And this one port thing

00:29:34 ◼   ► is the cheapest one. And then this two port one is kind of the default. And then you go

00:29:39 ◼   ► up from there. That's what makes sense from a purely product perspective. And I think

00:29:44 ◼   ► they'll get there. And I think that they've, I think Apple is clearly aware that the their

00:29:49 ◼   ► low end of their line is messy. And I don't think Apple wants it that way. You know, I

00:29:54 ◼   ► mean, I think I think it's different in the world of iPhones where you have older products

00:30:01 ◼   ► sticking around to hit price points. People understand that that makes sense. That's the

00:30:05 ◼   ► way the phone market works. But it's not so clear in notebooks, especially when the prices

00:30:12 ◼   ► are only apart from you know, 100 200 $300. Right? We're not talking that the MacBook

00:30:18 ◼   ► Air is $500 cheaper than the MacBook, right? It's only a couple hundred dollars cheaper.

00:30:23 ◼   ► And they got to close that gap and they got to make it make sense again. And I'm confident

00:30:27 ◼   ► they will I think we've seen from Apple over the last 24 to 36 months. A real recommit

00:30:36 ◼   ► to the Mac and ways that we've talked about on all of our shows, right? The Mac Pro roundtable,

00:30:41 ◼   ► the iMac Pro unit both sitting in front of one. It's the best Macintosh I've ever owned,

00:30:45 ◼   ► hands down. Yeah. The MacBook Pro has been problematic, but they are I think, with it

00:30:51 ◼   ► working into the specifics of this generation, but they seem to be moving in the right direction.

00:30:56 ◼   ► And just another step along that trail is clean up the consumer offering. And so I'm

00:31:01 ◼   ► looking forward to talking about that more you push up the the the pro models. I mean,

00:31:07 ◼   ► I feel like this is the clearest sign. And this is strange. And we will talk about the

00:31:10 ◼   ► new pro models in a second. But like the pushing them up doing what they did to them to me

00:31:16 ◼   ► and certainly, you know, it's four core and six core and 32 gigs of RAM and all of that.

00:31:23 ◼   ► And then not touching the touch bar or the non touch bar version, the escape versions,

00:31:26 ◼   ► like that's that moment where I was like, okay, you have literally made a space for

00:31:31 ◼   ► your consumer strategy, which doesn't exist yet. Like we can't see it yet. It's clearly

00:31:36 ◼   ► there's got to be that story. So I look forward to seeing that because that is the place where

00:31:41 ◼   ► they're kind of a disarray right now. Whereas the pros have more clarity and this is their

00:31:46 ◼   ► third crack at this generation, this body generation of MacBook Pros. And there is a

00:31:51 ◼   ► lot there is a lot in there, right? They they they increased cores that was I was listening

00:31:56 ◼   ► to ATP and they were talking about how having your like sort of product line just get cores

00:32:02 ◼   ► added to it doesn't happen that often. Like since the Intel transition that which is 12

00:32:09 ◼   ► years ago, we haven't seen something like this where it's just like, oh, yeah, all of

00:32:13 ◼   ► those two cores are now four cores and all of those four cores are now six cores, but

00:32:18 ◼   ► that's what happened here because of this is the coffee Lake and that's Intel, but it's

00:32:22 ◼   ► also like everybody gets who's using Intel chips gets the that feature bump. So that's

00:32:26 ◼   ► happening there and you and I know having iMac Pro is that you know more software like

00:32:32 ◼   ► I love software that's it's not as much as as you would like but the software that's

00:32:38 ◼   ► multi core aware is a beautiful thing and pro software is where that happens, which

00:32:43 ◼   ► is again why more cores matters for pro users more than it does for maybe anyone else. Yeah,

00:32:50 ◼   ► we're clearly moving to a world where we're going to be more multi core and our professional

00:32:55 ◼   ► machines. I mean, you look at raw clock speeds, that those increases have slowed down over

00:33:00 ◼   ► time. And so a way to make computers faster is to sort of shift the model to have, you

00:33:08 ◼   ► know, the clock speed is going to be all very similar. But this machine's got four cores

00:33:13 ◼   ► and if an app really is built to take advantage of that, which a lot of pro apps are now,

00:33:18 ◼   ► you know, everything from logic and the Adobe suite all the way down to something like forecast

00:33:22 ◼   ► by Marco Arma, you and I both use every day, which is one of the few apps that really light

00:33:28 ◼   ► up my iMac Pro and this really fill up all the cores. As we move into that world, it

00:33:34 ◼   ► both Intel and Apple are realizing that that's where they've got to be on the pro end. And

00:33:39 ◼   ► to our point earlier, it is a way to separate the pro and the consumer offerings. You know,

00:33:46 ◼   ► I I'll be very curious to see so these chip sets can go in the iMac, the 21 and a half

00:33:54 ◼   ► and the 27 inch retina iMacs can use these chips and I think we'll probably see quad

00:34:00 ◼   ► core and six core iMacs and it's going to bump it a little bit closer to the iMac Pro.

00:34:06 ◼   ► But I think even there we're going to see it because this is going to be increasingly

00:34:09 ◼   ► important. We're not going to see it in the MacBook. We're not going to see it if they

00:34:14 ◼   ► if they refresh the Mac Mini in the future. Those are still going to be lower core counts,

00:34:18 ◼   ► I think definitely not six to help separate them a little bit. Yeah, I think that's right

00:34:22 ◼   ► in the Mac Mini. If it ever comes back again, if there's a chip available, that'll do more

00:34:26 ◼   ► power and that they can do as a build to order. I'm sure they'll do it like they did back

00:34:30 ◼   ► in the day where they had the four core version, but it's not going to be the focus, right?

00:34:34 ◼   ► And if like if if if they have to make a decision about which which you know reference logic

00:34:41 ◼   ► board to use or you know which Intel chipset to use and they're like, well, this one's

00:34:45 ◼   ► cheaper and it only does two cores. They'll be like fine, right? They're not going to

00:34:48 ◼   ► they're not going to make a decision like that in favor of the other one. But right

00:34:53 ◼   ► one of the things that's really funny and people don't remember now the keyboard one

00:34:56 ◼   ► of my frustrations about this is like look I'm a keyboard snob. I am I really am. I didn't

00:35:01 ◼   ► used to be but I am I've got a bunch of mechanical keyboards. I have opinions about keyboards.

00:35:05 ◼   ► I don't like the modern MacBook keyboards. I don't like them. I don't like the reduced

00:35:11 ◼   ► travel it bugs me. It feels every time I use one. It feels like I am basically just smack

00:35:16 ◼   ► smashing my fingers down on squares and letters come out and it's like look that's a personal

00:35:21 ◼   ► preference thing but and and it's valid like if you hate that keyboard literally other

00:35:26 ◼   ► than the air you can't buy a MacBook that doesn't have a keyboard you hate and that's

00:35:31 ◼   ► I I have issues with that. I think it's emblematic of this entire generation where Apple made

00:35:35 ◼   ► some decisions that maybe maybe we're a little too extreme and they just have to live it

00:35:40 ◼   ► down because it's a it's a hardware body generation and they're not going to redesign it for another

00:35:44 ◼   ► year or two, but the reliability of those keyboards became a huge story and again, we

00:35:51 ◼   ► can debate how big is that issue Apple says it's a very small percentage of people if

00:35:55 ◼   ► you listen to like we all know people who either we either have been affected by it

00:36:00 ◼   ► or we know people who've been affected by it which makes you think maybe a small percentage

00:36:04 ◼   ► how how small is small to you 5% 10% I mean, it's not necessarily point 0 1% but regardless

00:36:11 ◼   ► that became the story about this generation of laptops is oh the keyboards and I'll tell

00:36:16 ◼   ► you if you go back in time to what October of 16 when these came out that was not the

00:36:24 ◼   ► story. In fact the story then was oh there's a second generation and they're they're more

00:36:28 ◼   ► clicky and they'll be okay and people sort of like accepted in large part that they were

00:36:34 ◼   ► stylistically that they were fine right it was before the issues of them being perhaps

00:36:41 ◼   ► very breakable came up what made the pro users who rely on the MacBook Pro really angry in

00:36:47 ◼   ► October of 16 was the RAM limit was the 16 gig RAM limit and they're like how can you

00:36:53 ◼   ► sell professional laptops with a 16 gig RAM limit that was the thing that people were

00:36:58 ◼   ► howling about that that was the number one complaint not USB C not the keyboard among

00:37:05 ◼   ► the real like high-end pros about those systems if you know I remember it very clearly and

00:37:11 ◼   ► I think this is one of those cases where you can see and it took time you can see that

00:37:17 ◼   ► Apple heard that you know Apple I think got frustrated by Intel's limitations on that

00:37:23 ◼   ► side and in these models you can are on the 15 inch of this new version the 2018 Apple

00:37:29 ◼   ► built like a whole strange like memory controller with high-powered RAM so that the is different

00:37:36 ◼   ► from the ones found in the other machines and they had to have a bigger battery and

00:37:39 ◼   ► all that stuff but they did that so they could get 32 gigs of RAM in there and that I think

00:37:45 ◼   ► I think it goes you can draw a straight line back to October of 16 when everybody was complaining

00:37:50 ◼   ► about it and probably Apple already knew that it wasn't really acceptable but it was what

00:37:55 ◼   ► they were stuck with and then they built like a workaround so let's not forget this is this

00:37:59 ◼   ► is in many ways this 15-inch directly addresses the biggest criticism from high-end professionals

00:38:06 ◼   ► of the MacBook Pro yeah I think even the 13 does to a degree you can't do the 32 gigs

00:38:12 ◼   ► of RAM in the 13 but for me I prefer the 13 inch size I currently have a 15 so I could

00:38:18 ◼   ► have a quad-core notebook you know I'm in the position where I'm in my studio most of

00:38:22 ◼   ► the time using iMac Pro but when I travel I am editing and recording live audio and

00:38:28 ◼   ► having as much horsepower as that is reasonable I'm not gonna buy a max.machine I try to balance

00:38:34 ◼   ► it a little bit but having as much power as I can reasonably have on a notebook is important

00:38:39 ◼   ► four weeks out of the year and I understand that's a weird use case and that I'm in a

00:38:44 ◼   ► privileged position I can have two nice machines but I've had a 15 because I want the quad-core

00:38:49 ◼   ► but I you know I haven't ordered anything I may probably wait a little while and kind

00:38:56 ◼   ► of see how the how the how the chips fall but if these machines end up being you know sort

00:39:01 ◼   ► of positively reviewed and the keyboard seem to be holding up that quad-core 13 is singing

00:39:06 ◼   ► my name and I think there are people who are just as excited about that as they are the

00:39:11 ◼   ► six core 32 gigagram 15 inch and you know they increase the core count but these machines

00:39:19 ◼   ► are faster Coffee Lake is a faster platform than what was there before so they are faster

00:39:26 ◼   ► across the board not just in like crazy multi-threaded situations and you know this is the third

00:39:34 ◼   ► MacBook Pro we've had in about three years you know it's roughly three years and if Apple's

00:39:40 ◼   ► you know saying hey this is going to be an annual cycle if you don't like this one then

00:39:44 ◼   ► like you probably only have to wait you know anywhere between nine and fifteen months for

00:39:50 ◼   ► the new one and that that predictability almost is more important to me than some the specifics

00:39:55 ◼   ► of any one of those updates because for so long there were just unpredictability in when

00:40:03 ◼   ► Apple may ship something and it seems like they're getting onto some sort of schedule

00:40:07 ◼   ► it's not as fast as maybe some people would like it to be but I will take predictable

00:40:11 ◼   ► at this point yeah we heard a lot of people you know it's kind of screaming bloody murder

00:40:17 ◼   ► when WWDC happened and there were no new laptops right like oh no no it's awful and they're

00:40:23 ◼   ► envisioning like there now won't be until the fall or whatever and this shows you if

00:40:28 ◼   ► and there was already evidence but it shows you again Apple can release products whenever

00:40:32 ◼   ► they want they can call journalists to an embargoed something and release products and

00:40:38 ◼   ► roll them out however they want they could do they can do it anytime and stepping back

00:40:43 ◼   ► from that as you pointed out the first rev of the MacBook Pros came after like nine months

00:40:49 ◼   ► and this one came after essentially I think 13 months yeah so they are averaging under

00:40:55 ◼   ► a year or even if we say it's an annual cycle and one of the questions one of the things

00:40:58 ◼   ► that really bugged people especially pros was was their kind of erratic update cycle

00:41:05 ◼   ► and some of that's on Apple and some of that's on Intel but I feel like with two of these

00:41:10 ◼   ► updates under their belts I think I do think pros can look at Apple's update cycle and

00:41:16 ◼   ► say like you said every year or so we're gonna get a new one and it might be yeah 13 14 months

00:41:25 ◼   ► it might be nine months but they seem to have now for two update cycles shown their commitment

00:41:32 ◼   ► to getting these updates out a little more timely in a little more timely fashion which

00:41:37 ◼   ► I think is I think it's good I want to talk about the t2 briefly but before we do that

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00:43:29 ◼   ► and RelayFM. Okay the T2 which debuted in yours and my iMac Pro is in these new MacBook

00:43:39 ◼   ► Pros and I wrote a piece in January that I told good old Roman at MacPro and I was like

00:43:45 ◼   ► you should you should link to that piece again it's like it's evergreen and I linked to it

00:43:50 ◼   ► on six colors too because the T2 is a really cool processor it's an ARM processor it's

00:43:58 ◼   ► it's running a sort of like a version of iOS called boot OS that's being used in the boot

00:44:04 ◼   ► process it's used for a bunch of security stuff it's the disk controller it's encrypting

00:44:08 ◼   ► stuff on the fly it's doing a whole bunch of stuff that traditionally was done by other

00:44:13 ◼   ► parts of the Mac. Yeah I mean it's great Apple can leverage their custom silicon team not

00:44:18 ◼   ► only for iOS devices but using that same technology this is basically what like an 8 like an 810

00:44:25 ◼   ► ish processor yeah yeah it's an iPhone processor basically that's inside every every MacBook

00:44:30 ◼   ► Pro and iMac Pro and like repurpose that for these like very Mac specific tasks and it's

00:44:40 ◼   ► sort of cheesy but like that is one of the things that only Apple can do because they

00:44:43 ◼   ► have that expertise on hand and it's they are redefining kind of what a modern Mac is

00:44:48 ◼   ► you know if you look at the like the core like system architecture of the iMac Pro and

00:44:54 ◼   ► MacBook Pro it is now fundamentally different than previous and other Macs and obviously

00:45:00 ◼   ► much more secure and faster because they're doing crazy SSD stuff and this is the way

00:45:06 ◼   ► forward. Now it comes with the cost you know these MacBook Pros the original touch bar

00:45:11 ◼   ► machines were more than the previous ones and people sort of wrote that off as well

00:45:16 ◼   ► it's the T1 and the touch bar and now we see it with the T2 those prices are the same so

00:45:22 ◼   ► I you know eventually I think we'll see this like trickle all the way down to whatever

00:45:26 ◼   ► the consumer notebook looks like the regular iMacs but I do hope Apple can work to absorb

00:45:31 ◼   ► that cost and not increase the price of every computer they sell by $300 to make this work

00:45:38 ◼   ► but you know having it in the iMac Pro now I've had this machine what we've had these

00:45:41 ◼   ► like six or seven months you never notice it you can turn off the secure boot stuff

00:45:47 ◼   ► if it gets in your way and you know it's just it's just there doing its thing and that's

00:45:52 ◼   ► the best kind of technology that you know it's working hard for you but you never have

00:45:55 ◼   ► to think about it that's that's what I want out of a workstation computers you know what

00:46:00 ◼   ► I mean. And it's a little bit silly on an iMac or at least it's a lot less useful on

00:46:05 ◼   ► an iMac than on a MacBook Pro this idea that as the disk controller it's also encrypting

00:46:13 ◼   ► everything and it's basically encryption at no cost it does all of the encryption work

00:46:17 ◼   ► on the fly which means that FileVault basically is free it doesn't slow you down in any way

00:46:23 ◼   ► Apple recommends that everything be encrypted and that matters on a laptop right where the

00:46:30 ◼   ► laptop could walk away and if it's entirely encrypted nobody's going to get the data off

00:46:34 ◼   ► of it. Plus they do the striping where they've got like it's literally just banks of RAM

00:46:39 ◼   ► that are being used and it's doing all the it's acting as the controller which means

00:46:45 ◼   ► it's able to sort of like use both of the banks together and that increases the the

00:46:51 ◼   ► throughput of it so it's it's got a performance story it's got a security story on the storage

00:46:56 ◼   ► side. Yeah it's a little confusing that like so the hardware encryption is happening all

00:47:02 ◼   ► the time you can then turn on FileVault on top of that if you want Apple I think recommends

00:47:07 ◼   ► it for additional security. Yeah what it does is it changes the it links it to your password

00:47:14 ◼   ► so instead of it just being kind of like attached to I think even though it's even though it's

00:47:20 ◼   ► on by default it's on based on data that's the identity of your laptop so that like they

00:47:27 ◼   ► could potentially get that information and decrypt it but when you turn on FileVault

00:47:31 ◼   ► it's tying it to your your password which means that now you need all the hardware ID

00:47:36 ◼   ► stuff and your password to get it to work right which is but yeah that's I mean for

00:47:40 ◼   ► a for a laptop that's what you want if you're working on anything sensitive because then

00:47:44 ◼   ► they'll never be able to read your your data. Yeah I run FileVault and the firmware password

00:47:52 ◼   ► on my notebook so you can't even boot it from an external drive without a password. In the

00:47:56 ◼   ► iMac I'm a little more relaxed it's here in the office probably not going to go anywhere

00:48:00 ◼   ► but yeah if you have a notebook you're crazy not turn that stuff on even with the new hardware

00:48:04 ◼   ► like you said this is an extra layer and it works with and with Mojave it works even more

00:48:08 ◼   ► this way right because Mojave you're gonna have to ask permission for things like the

00:48:13 ◼   ► microphone and the camera but it's it's controlling the camera the FaceTime camera so there's

00:48:19 ◼   ► a whole not only is it doing kind of like exposure and white balance adjustment and

00:48:25 ◼   ► stuff like that but it's actually you have to ask permission to use it which makes it

00:48:30 ◼   ► theoretically much more secure because you you have to you don't the operating system

00:48:35 ◼   ► doesn't have direct access to the mic or the camera it has to go through the T2 and then

00:48:40 ◼   ► obviously the T2 is also running the touch bar which it isn't in our iMacs but it is

00:48:44 ◼   ► on the on these laptops and the touch bar you know continues to exist and some people

00:48:49 ◼   ► really like it I actually think on a system that's designated for pros the touch bar is

00:48:53 ◼   ► a there's a better use case there in some ways because so many of the pros are using

00:48:59 ◼   ► these high-end apps where the touch bar as a sort of like extra control surface you can

00:49:06 ◼   ► you can at least make a stronger case for it some people are never gonna like the touch

00:49:08 ◼   ► bar and that's fine but I think you can make a stronger case for it in you know high-end

00:49:13 ◼   ► apps like Final Cut and Logic that that are you know able to do kind of wacky things and

00:49:20 ◼   ► they're super customizable like Logic I can tell you if you've ever looked at the customizability

00:49:25 ◼   ► on Logic for the touch bar it's like you can literally do anything you want in terms of

00:49:30 ◼   ► like putting buttons and controls on the touch bar and Logic it's it's it's amazing yeah

00:49:36 ◼   ► if I do one of these I'm looking forward to checking out to see how that's evolved you

00:49:39 ◼   ► know I had a 2016 a key fell off of it and I made a scene in the Apple store and they

00:49:44 ◼   ► repaired it for free and then I put it on eBay but it's um the touch bar is a weird thing

00:49:50 ◼   ► right because it's still only on these machines I think your argument for being for pros is

00:49:56 ◼   ► interesting I think there's a really interesting counter argument as well that maybe people

00:50:00 ◼   ► like that don't necessarily use notebooks as notebooks all the time yeah you know they're

00:50:04 ◼   ► up to displays or they're like me where I'm so wired into keyboard shortcuts actually

00:50:10 ◼   ► don't need anything else at this point or I find it distracting there's there's there's

00:50:15 ◼   ► good arguments on both sides as some people have said but um I regret that immediately

00:50:20 ◼   ► yeah no I mean the touch bar is divisive and I just I feel like if anybody's gonna use

00:50:26 ◼   ► a touch bar it is a pro who's motivated to customize it or have it be some sort of wacky

00:50:32 ◼   ► control surface that's doing something complicated I you know I'm not sure they are using the

00:50:39 ◼   ► touch bar either but I could see scenarios there whereas the scenario for like a consumer

00:50:43 ◼   ► using the touch bar is sort of like what it's sort of like clippy in a touch bar it's like

00:50:49 ◼   ► yeah you appear to be doing a thing touch the touch bar and I will help you do that

00:50:53 ◼   ► thing and I'm not sure that is a strong an argument I don't know this is a I think it's

00:50:59 ◼   ► great news great news also at a time when there's not a lot going on other than us processing

00:51:03 ◼   ► betas to talk about the some new Mac hardware and I feel like Apple is being consistent

00:51:12 ◼   ► with what they said a couple of years ago and last year in terms of their behavior of

00:51:15 ◼   ► like how they're training these systems the challenge is that their current product line

00:51:19 ◼   ► isn't consistent right there there there are pieces missing there it's a work in progress

00:51:23 ◼   ► and this is this part like kind of makes sense what they're doing here and I understand why

00:51:28 ◼   ► and not that there aren't things to criticize but kind of like I get where I get where they're

00:51:32 ◼   ► going I would suspect that the next major like body revision the major generational

00:51:37 ◼   ► revision to these systems is probably going to react to the fact that that so many people

00:51:44 ◼   ► have a hard time embracing them I think on the four or five year time scale that those

00:51:50 ◼   ► generations go they do have a chance to course correct but if you accept the fact that they're

00:51:55 ◼   ► not going to be doing major hardware revisions on the outside of these devices in this in

00:52:01 ◼   ► this generation then I think what they're doing is a really interesting progression

00:52:08 ◼   ► and it makes sense with what they've said these systems are supposed to be yeah agreed

00:52:13 ◼   ► so speaking betas by the way worth a check-in on the summer of betas part of the fun of

00:52:19 ◼   ► the summer summer of beta I want to check in with you about Mojave because Myke you

00:52:27 ◼   ► know it's gonna be less excited about that Myke's excited about iOS 12 but I wanted to

00:52:31 ◼   ► check in a little we're doing all the Mac stuff today I told Myke Stevens gonna be on

00:52:34 ◼   ► we're gonna talk about Mac stuff and he's like go for it so have you been spending time

00:52:41 ◼   ► with Mojave how's that been going I have I'm running it on an external SSD on my 2015 MacBook

00:52:47 ◼   ► Pro and I'm getting pretty close to just booting from it I've got one more work trip in about

00:52:54 ◼   ► a week and a half and I think after that I'm gonna be booting my notebook into it it seems

00:52:59 ◼   ► pretty good you know I think it's obviously fun to talk about dark mode a bunch of people

00:53:04 ◼   ► including me have written about it but once you kind of get past that no hobby does have

00:53:10 ◼   ► some other interesting things the additions to the finder are you're talking about Apple

00:53:16 ◼   ► focusing on pros they feel like very pro features you know surfacing automator workflows and

00:53:22 ◼   ► scripting stuff in finder with new buttons having that new sidebar where for instance

00:53:28 ◼   ► you have a picture loaded in the finder preview and it shows sort of the metadata the photo

00:53:33 ◼   ► it can do different things depending on what you're looking at that's all very pro level

00:53:38 ◼   ► stuff and that I think is is an is the other side of the story with the hardware of Apple

00:53:45 ◼   ► focusing on you know consumers I think at this point most people you could use a Mac

00:53:51 ◼   ► or an iPad and be totally fine that's not true with pros all pros yet and Apple I think

00:53:58 ◼   ► is really spreading the good news that the Mac is for professionals you know if you're

00:54:02 ◼   ► a professional Apple user you're gonna get a Mac that's the way it is right now and Mojave

00:54:08 ◼   ► is working to cater to those users more and more there's obviously stuff in there that's

00:54:14 ◼   ► you know you could take it or leave it some of the the desktop stacking and filtering

00:54:19 ◼   ► stuff it's not for me but it's interesting that is there but all in all it feels like

00:54:24 ◼   ► a pretty solid release you know I don't know we're so far beyond the the years of each

00:54:32 ◼   ► Mac OS release being a really big deal but in our current era Mojave feels like the biggest

00:54:38 ◼   ► deal we've had in maybe three or four years you know maybe dating back to like El Cap

00:54:44 ◼   ► even so I'm excited about it I haven't spent enough time with it to tell you that it's

00:54:49 ◼   ► bulletproof yet as far as a beta is concerned but in my limited time with it it's been it's

00:54:55 ◼   ► been a positive thing I think yeah I am perilously close to cutting over to this is the point

00:55:01 ◼   ► and I've talked about it before on this podcast but there is that point where you have to

00:55:05 ◼   ► use it and no amount of I've got you know I've got an external drive with it installed

00:55:11 ◼   ► that I can boot off of I've got a laptop here that is a loaner from Apple that they sent

00:55:17 ◼   ► when I was writing about the public beta I did my big public beta review so that's running

00:55:23 ◼   ► it and that's great but none of these is the system I sit at all day now the downside is

00:55:28 ◼   ► if I sit at it all day and logic breaks or Skype breaks or high audio hijack breaks or

00:55:34 ◼   ► something else that I use to do my job that's really bad but at the same time I can't write

00:55:41 ◼   ► about it having not really really used it like at some point when it comes time for

00:55:48 ◼   ► release I need to speak as somebody who's been living in it so I think I'm close to

00:55:52 ◼   ► that and the way that works functionally is that I will install the beta on my existing

00:55:58 ◼   ► I'll back up then I'll install the beta on my existing and then I'll take that external

00:56:02 ◼   ► drive that's currently running the Mojave beta and I will install a pristine copy of

00:56:07 ◼   ► High Sierra on it so that I've got a place to retreat to in case of emergency and a couple

00:56:15 ◼   ► years ago I had to use that a lot last year I didn't so I can we live in hope that I'll

00:56:21 ◼   ► be able to actually do my job running Mojave and it won't be a problem but at some point

00:56:25 ◼   ► I got to do it as dumb as it is in in one way to have your production machine be running

00:56:31 ◼   ► a beta OS that's the job we have you and I yeah yeah cuz you're gonna review it yeah I'm

00:56:39 ◼   ► gonna review it I think I'm kind of debating if it's one review or like a series of three

00:56:44 ◼   ► or four kind of in-depth articles about the big features I may change it up this year

00:56:47 ◼   ► but but yeah it's part of the gig and you know I think it's it's interesting Apple's

00:56:54 ◼   ► clearly going to stay on this annual release cycle for Mac OS we've been on it a long time

00:57:00 ◼   ► now and so I'm past the point of like kind of wishing that that wasn't the case and so

00:57:05 ◼   ► it's much more about okay what what can they do what can they do this year and and of course

00:57:11 ◼   ► the the proper way to think about it is not that what's Mojave ships they start on 10/15

00:57:17 ◼   ► it's that some of these features span multiple years of work and they land at one point or

00:57:23 ◼   ► another but I think the most interesting story moving forward from probably in Mojave but

00:57:28 ◼   ► definitely after it is going to be those apps coming over from iOS Mojave shows what four

00:57:36 ◼   ► of them are like there's a lot of weird stuff there you can kill a single process and bring

00:57:40 ◼   ► down the whole like they kind of live in their own environment structurally within the OS

00:57:45 ◼   ► and if you bring that that environment down they all crash which is sort of hilarious

00:57:49 ◼   ► but there there is clearly day one or before being before day one on these apps and it's

00:57:58 ◼   ► going to be important to pay attention to how Apple rolls them out how they change and

00:58:01 ◼   ► evolve things like the the like the date picker and the home app has gotten a lot of grief

00:58:08 ◼   ► because it's the carousel date picker from iOS well Apple could redo that or they may

00:58:15 ◼   ► not and you can't actually mix UI kit and app kit elements in these apps they're all

00:58:23 ◼   ► sort of iOS structured as far as the interface and so are we on the cusp of the Mac looking

00:58:31 ◼   ► like iOS a lot more in three or four years ago I just don't know and so those are sort

00:58:35 ◼   ► of the questions that I'm thinking about this summer and spending time with it and spending

00:58:39 ◼   ► time with these apps and trying to provide some sort of thought process around where

00:58:45 ◼   ► are we today and where's it going I think the on this past weekend's ATP episode they

00:58:52 ◼   ► talked about that how somebody I don't know where whether it was game Rambo or or see

00:58:58 ◼   ► John Smith found out that like the build I think it was Steve Tran Smith found the build

00:59:02 ◼   ► numbers are the same across the OS is so that the suggestion there is that is that these

00:59:08 ◼   ► are basically the iOS apps and that part of what's going on here is you know the iOS apps

00:59:14 ◼   ► run and they run as Mac apps too and what I came away from that thinking was that's

00:59:20 ◼   ► exciting because for this to work it needs to be like that for this to work you need

00:59:26 ◼   ► to be able to like do the work in your app and have it work this way on the Mac and this

00:59:30 ◼   ► way on iOS and this is not going to work if what this is is a method to make like a copy

00:59:36 ◼   ► of your app and then tweak it and have it run on the Mac like I think for this to be

00:59:42 ◼   ► truly broadly successful it needs to be as smooth a process from the iOS developers standpoint

00:59:49 ◼   ► as possible to to not just to move it over but to keep it updated and so yeah I mean

00:59:55 ◼   ► it's logical like it's one app it's not it's not you but you don't break it off and then

01:00:00 ◼   ► make the Mac version using tools that are special that make it easier like that that

01:00:05 ◼   ► is not that does not seem to be the end goal here and that's good it shouldn't be the goal

01:00:09 ◼   ► here is not to let you do a fork for the Mac the goal is you update your iOS app and now

01:00:15 ◼   ► it runs on the Mac as a Mac app that's that so we'll see how it goes because I too have

01:00:20 ◼   ► gotten that that you what is it the UI kit server has crashed and like literally all

01:00:27 ◼   ► of those apps just die at once and that is a you know very different kind of experience

01:00:33 ◼   ► it's a beta we are like you said it's not day zero it's like day minus 70 or whatever

01:00:38 ◼   ► we have time but yeah I think it's fascinating and it is the most interesting Mac OS release

01:00:45 ◼   ► in a long time speaking of Mac OS releases by the way I think what would be fun here

01:00:52 ◼   ► in the summer of fun is to do a draft do you agree I'm I'm scared for it okay because the

01:01:02 ◼   ► good news is we're gonna draft versions of OS 10 yes or Mac OS if you prefer which I

01:01:07 ◼   ► don't but either way Mac OS 10 we'll call it it covers all of the areas you don't know

01:01:13 ◼   ► how we spelled it we just said it out loud Mac OS 10 anyway we're gonna do that we're

01:01:18 ◼   ► gonna do a really quick draft and we're gonna do it right after I tell you about our third

01:01:23 ◼   ► and final sponsor for this episode of upgrades anchor anchor is the easiest way to start

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01:02:09 ◼   ► support and the ability to drag in audio from other apps Stephen I believe you do a podcast

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01:02:54 ◼   ► today thank you anchor for supporting this show and giving aspiring podcasters an easy

01:02:59 ◼   ► way to get started and also Stephen yes okay I am the host of this episode so therefore

01:03:06 ◼   ► I'm gonna let you go first we're gonna draft six three each OS 10 versions from the catalog

01:03:12 ◼   ► of by my count 17 different possible OS 10 versions so tell me what's your first pick

01:03:19 ◼   ► in the OS 10 draft and why my first pick is 10.2 Jaguar and they may not seem like an

01:03:28 ◼   ► obvious pick because you think well that's like you know a later release it's not the

01:03:32 ◼   ► first first one but it's the first one that was sort of usable it was stable it was much

01:03:40 ◼   ► faster than the first two versions it was the first version I used on a regular basis

01:03:44 ◼   ► so there's some nostalgia in this one but most importantly Jaguar was the the OS that

01:03:49 ◼   ► introduced a lot of system apps to Mac OS 10 so iBook iCal Safari iChat some apps you

01:03:57 ◼   ► may have heard of they all got their start on 10.2 and it made like file browsing to

01:04:05 ◼   ► Windows a bunch of stuff better but those core apps that we think of like at the heart

01:04:09 ◼   ► of OS 10 weren't there until 10.2 and I think that's that's a pretty big win for this release

01:04:18 ◼   ► it's good I I have a different one that I think of as the first usable version I should

01:04:24 ◼   ► say what are our qualifications by the way both of us have the ability to run and have

01:04:29 ◼   ► installed somewhere near our near us right now every version of the OS 10 we have we

01:04:35 ◼   ► have old computers you and I I actually bought some old computers so I could do that now

01:04:40 ◼   ► who would do that I actually have been out just a little share a little news here in

01:04:45 ◼   ► the middle of our draft I've been working on a project to do extensive screenshots of

01:04:50 ◼   ► every version of Mac OS 10 and working on it since the end of last year it's almost

01:04:55 ◼   ► done and so I have run all of these in the last six months or so so I have spent lots

01:05:02 ◼   ► of time with them you've been witnessing the evolution of Mac OS 10 and fast forward yes

01:05:07 ◼   ► yeah 15 years of history in six months that's pretty cool also a lot of brush metal man

01:05:12 ◼   ► it's a lot yeah I think the number one thing that I like about about Jaguar is that Steve

01:05:18 ◼   ► Jobs always pronounced it Jaguar yeah it's weird right yeah how did you how did you end

01:05:23 ◼   ► up with that I don't know I had a I had a boss who did the same thing I thought it's

01:05:28 ◼   ► like that's that's weird there's no that's not how you say that word but people do I

01:05:33 ◼   ► know that they Jaguar like car company it's like Jaguar or something like that but we

01:05:38 ◼   ► nobody called it Mac OS 10 10.2 Jaguar probably not I'm gonna pick 10.8 mount line ooh ooh

01:05:48 ◼   ► outline so a couple reasons one is the line broke a lot of stuff yeah yeah line was weird

01:05:54 ◼   ► um yeah and as a podcaster I will tell you they completely overhauled the the sound subsystem

01:06:01 ◼   ► in 10.7 and broke everything like everything like we at Mac world I believe when I left

01:06:09 ◼   ► Mac world we still had our podcast room iMac running 10.6 snow leopard because lion broke

01:06:15 ◼   ► everything we used and if it wasn't that we had just updated it and I think there was

01:06:21 ◼   ► still a bootable 10.6 it was it was not good so mountain lion fixed it not everything that

01:06:27 ◼   ► lion broke but a lot of stuff that line broke got addressed but my my number one reason

01:06:32 ◼   ► for picking it is it's a little bit personal which is this was the surprise OS release

01:06:40 ◼   ► yeah I got called by Apple PR to come for a Mac related briefing at Cupertino and I

01:06:46 ◼   ► walked in and they said so we're releasing OS 10 mountain lion next week like what and

01:06:56 ◼   ► I for those of us who are now on the the annual update wagon right where it gets announced

01:07:02 ◼   ► WWC it ships in the fall there were no rumors that there was a full-on new version of OS

01:07:08 ◼   ► 10 coming and this happened in like June or July it was not it was not tied to WWDC nobody

01:07:16 ◼   ► talked about it and then boom they didn't again they didn't announce it they shipped

01:07:24 ◼   ► it they shipped it and so I walked into that that that is the biggest surprise because

01:07:31 ◼   ► he like even the iPod there was a rumor that Apple is doing an mp3 player we we had an

01:07:34 ◼   ► idea the biggest surprise I've ever gotten an Apple product briefing where I walked in

01:07:39 ◼   ► and they said yeah we have a new version of OS 10 and shipping next week and you're under

01:07:43 ◼   ► embargo and I'm also proud to say nobody blew the embargo I think there was a story that

01:07:51 ◼   ► mentioned there might be a new version of OS 10 coming the night before and it was like

01:07:56 ◼   ► a one-liner in a larger column but basically it didn't leak and that led to a very funny

01:08:02 ◼   ► moment when people didn't believe me I posted my story and I tweeted saying you know OS

01:08:11 ◼   ► 10 mountain lion is coming out and here's my full review and people are like this is

01:08:17 ◼   ► a joke right like no and then you know Jim Dow Rimbels posted and and you know all these

01:08:24 ◼   ► other people posted theirs and then that was the moment where we're like oh yeah mg Siegler

01:08:28 ◼   ► who I actually ran into coming out of my briefing and and he and I shared shared a look and

01:08:34 ◼   ► I will remember forever which is like what just happened like neither of us could believe

01:08:39 ◼   ► that they had managed to sneak this one by so not only was mountain lion a nice let's

01:08:45 ◼   ► update stuff let's fix a lot of bugs kind of midpoint release that tend to be the favorites

01:08:50 ◼   ► because they focus a little bit more on the on not taking big steps but instead sort of

01:08:55 ◼   ► just getting everything to work right but that was the that was the surprise release

01:08:59 ◼   ► surprise brand new version of OS 10 you didn't even know it was here now it's here it it

01:09:04 ◼   ► was high on my list for those reasons it also brought notification center and messages so

01:09:11 ◼   ► it again is a release that sort of added things that we now just view as like core tenants

01:09:16 ◼   ► of the OS my review of it referred to iOS apps coming to the Mac in a very different

01:09:22 ◼   ► way than in my mind reminders some other stuff so yeah it was a good pick Jason it's good

01:09:28 ◼   ► it was a lot of oh yeah all our all our Mac users use iOS we should probably get those

01:09:33 ◼   ► things in sync there's a lot of that in there too yeah what do you have a lemon though lots

01:09:37 ◼   ► of lemon yeah I'm gonna go with the crowd favorite because I'm a man of the people and

01:09:42 ◼   ► I'm gonna pick snow leopard yeah just taking this long it's really only two picks and I

01:09:48 ◼   ► almost picked it it's really your own fault for picking Jaguar instead of snow leopard

01:09:52 ◼   ► first it should've gone first I know yeah I wanted to throw you a right hook at the

01:09:57 ◼   ► beginning yeah I mean it's not up right what more can you say right it is I think by far

01:10:02 ◼   ► people's most favorite version of Mac OS I'm not sure that's completely earned it wasn't

01:10:08 ◼   ► as buck free as people remember it being but of course if it's it's famous for no new features

01:10:13 ◼   ► that really wasn't true because it included exchange support included lots of under the

01:10:18 ◼   ► hood stuff so open CL we counted it was it was it was either more than 100 or more than

01:10:23 ◼   ► 200 new features if you counted yeah so despite the no new features thing that they said it

01:10:27 ◼   ► actually was massive in terms of the stuff they added but it wasn't it was a bunch of

01:10:32 ◼   ► like little stuff mostly and then sort of tinkering it was not not quite as focused

01:10:37 ◼   ► on like a big marketing feature right it was also notable is the first release that dropped

01:10:42 ◼   ► power PC support so snow leopard is what was much smaller in terms of disk space from leopard

01:10:48 ◼   ► that's because they got rid of all the power PC stuff but also they did some file system

01:10:53 ◼   ► encryption stuff for the first time so kind of layering in some stuff that's now really

01:10:59 ◼   ► core to the the underpinnings of Mac OS but you know everybody everyone loves snow leopard

01:11:04 ◼   ► right like people get excited about Grand Central dispatch whatever but people love

01:11:08 ◼   ► snow leopard you gotta you gotta put it in the draft yeah no I think I think you're playing

01:11:13 ◼   ► to the crowd and well done yeah I can hear the applause from here yeah yeah you may be

01:11:19 ◼   ► maybe there's a parade moving along outside your house I don't know I'm I'm going to counter

01:11:25 ◼   ► your Jaguar with 10-1 puma because I feel like this was the one we we spent several

01:11:34 ◼   ► years writing about OS X as this kind of theoretical construct Rhapsody the public beta and even

01:11:41 ◼   ► the 10 10 0 beta or the 10 0 which was basically a beta and it was slow it was not something

01:11:47 ◼   ► it was the thing you installed on a separate partition and booted into and said oh yeah

01:11:52 ◼   ► this will be the future and then went back to classic because it was just not any good

01:11:57 ◼   ► and then 10-1 came out and I remember distinctly because I wrote the this the first OS X that

01:12:03 ◼   ► I wrote the I wrote the big article in macworld about the 10-0 I edited it but there was a

01:12:08 ◼   ► different writer and the 10-1 I wrote it and I remember sitting there thinking yeah you

01:12:13 ◼   ► know you can use this which is not to say that 10-2 wasn't way more usable and faster

01:12:20 ◼   ► and and those early days of OS X every release was faster for a while it's kind of amazing

01:12:26 ◼   ► when you think about it now that we think about OS is they get older and they get slower

01:12:30 ◼   ► unless you've got new hardware but these were faster on existing hardware because they kept

01:12:35 ◼   ► optimizing them but 10-1 was the one where I was like it was pretty slow 10-0 is pretty

01:12:39 ◼   ► low bar is amazingly slow so 10-1 was like I think people could actually use this now

01:12:45 ◼   ► in my article I actually say this is what we've been waiting for it's more reliable

01:12:50 ◼   ► it's faster the interface is better and it's actually got more software on it than 10-0

01:12:56 ◼   ► so what I said back then in 2001 was the first version of OS X that's truly ready for general

01:13:01 ◼   ► use and I will stand by it although I will point out the very next sentence is although

01:13:07 ◼   ► it's still not a feature for feature match for OS 9 it's still missing things right that

01:13:15 ◼   ► but it's a but it was a what I said back in 2001 was it's no longer a step backward it

01:13:20 ◼   ► was more of a sidestep where there were the new things you got for using OS X but some

01:13:24 ◼   ► of the other stuff you had to leave behind but and I will say in proof that some things

01:13:30 ◼   ► never change Apple's line about 10-1 was it's all about performance. I'll say this one thing

01:13:38 ◼   ► I don't think you mentioned it was free it was free if you if you own 10-0 it was the

01:13:43 ◼   ► initial because this is in the era where where OS updates cost like cost 50 or 60 bucks 100

01:13:48 ◼   ► bucks whatever it was right yeah I mean Apple charged 129 dollars for the majority of it

01:13:53 ◼   ► in his life how about that it's hard to believe now again but that there was and this one

01:13:58 ◼   ► was free and I believe this is the first one that we referred to as the apology update

01:14:04 ◼   ► where it was like 10-0 was so bad and you had to pay for it I mean and again it was

01:14:10 ◼   ► the future of course it was bad because it was new and they were really struggling but

01:14:13 ◼   ► it was not like I said it was more of a curiosity and like what the future was going to be and

01:14:18 ◼   ► so Apple in being very considerate I think said if you already bought 10-0 you get 10-1

01:14:24 ◼   ► like they you didn't you didn't you could I don't know if you could download it but

01:14:28 ◼   ► there was a package that was basically like the free upgrade from 10-0 yeah I've got it

01:14:33 ◼   ► yeah I think I've got a couple of those it didn't even come in a full box it was like

01:14:37 ◼   ► a little envelope sleeve yeah yeah yeah so that there is that too that it was free but

01:14:41 ◼   ► the reason it was free is that really they're like no no no stop using 10-0 we're sorry

01:14:46 ◼   ► here's 10-1 right well that they you you have a very limited window to make a good impression

01:14:51 ◼   ► of your of your new OS that you've been talking about for four years and 10-0 didn't fulfill

01:14:57 ◼   ► those promises 10-1 I think was them trying to bring people bring people on board a little

01:15:03 ◼   ► bit more I'm gonna go with my last pick I'm gonna do something a little more modern but

01:15:10 ◼   ► weird I'm gonna go with 10.10 Yosemite huh brought obviously a new user interface so it

01:15:18 ◼   ► was the end of sort of the really like lickable aqua that have been downplayed over the years

01:15:24 ◼   ► but you look at 10-9 Mavericks and 10-10 Yosemite they're very different and 10-10 is flat it

01:15:30 ◼   ► also holds the title of the only release of Mac OS X to use Helvetica as the system font

01:15:36 ◼   ► which boy is it weird looking now we're used to San Francisco which they did just a year

01:15:41 ◼   ► later but there's it's strange to see Helvetica everywhere I kind of like it but it's the

01:15:48 ◼   ► only one and I think that that makes it special it also brought continuity to the Mac so you

01:15:56 ◼   ► know moving things back and forth between your iPhone your Mac more fluidly it brought

01:16:01 ◼   ► the photos app so replaced iPhoto with photos which also brought Apple's photo management

01:16:07 ◼   ► app into the system iPhoto was for a long time a separate purchase through iLife and

01:16:13 ◼   ► then sort of individually on the App Store and it was free if you bought a new Mac but

01:16:17 ◼   ► photos is part of the core OS so it brought photo management into the OS really for the

01:16:21 ◼   ► first time and it brought with that new design that brought sort of what we now call baby

01:16:27 ◼   ► dark mode where the dock and the menu bar and things like spotlight would be would be

01:16:32 ◼   ► dark not at all what we see in Mojave of course but a big perhaps the biggest visual overhaul

01:16:40 ◼   ► Mac OS X has ever seen the rest of it was sort of a slow evolution you're dropping brush

01:16:44 ◼   ► metal dropping the pinstripes going all all gray but Yosemite was a big break and one

01:16:50 ◼   ► that we're still in that era and I think that I think that makes it worth worth a draft

01:16:59 ◼   ► pick over some of the others it's nice that's good one for my last pick and the last pick

01:17:04 ◼   ► of this little mini draft you know if I hadn't picked Puma I would go back to the old days

01:17:10 ◼   ► because I feel nostalgic about the public beta it was so weird and yet at the same time

01:17:16 ◼   ► that was the moment the public beta that was the moment where Apple was saying here's the

01:17:22 ◼   ► future of the Mac and and it has proven out to be yes that look like for two decades this

01:17:29 ◼   ► is it this is the Mac that it is now eclipsed the classic Mac OS in terms of being kind

01:17:35 ◼   ► of like out in the world the primary Mac OS so I I thought really hard about picking it

01:17:41 ◼   ► but but I think Puma it has gotten me covered on that end so I'm going to go on the other

01:17:46 ◼   ► end and I'm just going to be a shameless crowd pleaser and say Mojave I think Mojave as we've

01:17:53 ◼   ► talked about in a few different places is the first time in a long time where it feels

01:18:00 ◼   ► like Apple is really putting some effort into its conception of what the Mac is going to

01:18:04 ◼   ► be today and going forward and I think there are a bunch of features in it that are really

01:18:09 ◼   ► interesting including the UI overhaul for dark mode but a lot more beyond that that

01:18:13 ◼   ► are interesting in and of themselves and then the running iOS apps on the Mac even if it's

01:18:20 ◼   ► just those four apps like it points the direction for the future and it is a huge not just a

01:18:26 ◼   ► huge step for the Mac but it's a very large investment in Apple's software development

01:18:31 ◼   ► for the Mac and as a Mac user the last few years it's been like you know it continues

01:18:38 ◼   ► to be a product in their lineup but they are making an effort because this is Apple saying

01:18:43 ◼   ► no the Mac is important it's important for pro users and it's important for kind of their

01:18:47 ◼   ► long term computing strategy in some way how do they fit the Mac and iOS together without

01:18:55 ◼   ► necessarily merging them together but how they fit together so that five years out it

01:19:00 ◼   ► makes sense something that kind of doesn't make sense now which is hi we're a company

01:19:04 ◼   ► that has two totally different operating systems so that's a bit that's a big deal so I think

01:19:08 ◼   ► in the end Mojave will be proven to be kind of like the branching off point although if

01:19:13 ◼   ► I really wanted to pick like how history views like major OS updates I should probably pick

01:19:18 ◼   ► 1015 because that's the one where it opens the floodgates but for now have a name for

01:19:24 ◼   ► now 1014 well it'll be Joshua tree I think 1015 Joshua tree but 1014 Mojave that's the

01:19:30 ◼   ► last pick that's great I think I think that all makes all makes sense do you have any

01:19:37 ◼   ► runners-up that you were disappointed you can squeeze in no I mean public beta is the

01:19:41 ◼   ► one that was my runner-up that I had on my list and I thought about just because that

01:19:45 ◼   ► is the start of it all in in a lot of ways like the first thing that really felt like

01:19:49 ◼   ► os10 or the Rhapsody stuff didn't it was basically next step yeah yeah yeah but public beta was

01:19:57 ◼   ► like yeah okay here we are we weave although public beta public beta still had the Apple

01:20:01 ◼   ► logo in the middle of the menu bar that didn't do anything right no that was just Rhapsody

01:20:06 ◼   ► or was that the public I think no I think it was a developer preview maybe oh yeah John

01:20:10 ◼   ► Syracuse was already I was already yeah yeah okay yeah okay my only one that didn't get

01:20:16 ◼   ► in would have been 10 3 Panther I think for the same reason I picked Jaguar that a lot

01:20:21 ◼   ► of like core stuff that we think about being os10 was present in Panther fast user switching

01:20:28 ◼   ► expose file vault the sidebar and finder finder in 10 01 and 2 is really weird because you

01:20:38 ◼   ► don't have the sidebar you know where you could like see your home folder or stuff you

01:20:42 ◼   ► know the way we think about the finder now they introduced that as saying hey we have

01:20:47 ◼   ► the sidebar and iTunes a playlist we just ported that to finder and it made a lot of

01:20:52 ◼   ► sense and it sort of put the user at the center of the computer and not the local hard drive

01:20:58 ◼   ► at the center of the computer when you went to navigate for stuff so Panther I think is

01:21:02 ◼   ► my runner-up but I think this is good this was a lot of fun I was very excited when you

01:21:08 ◼   ► suggested this for this episode no that's good I'm glad I'm glad we're fun it is the

01:21:12 ◼   ► summer fun this is this is why we do fun things we do fun things all year round but in the

01:21:16 ◼   ► summer there the summer fun that's it's more fun I want to do some ask upgrade quickly before

01:21:21 ◼   ► we go yes you got your lasers run at a different frequency than my lasers but I'll accept it

01:21:28 ◼   ► I'll accept it it's like laser pellets all right listener Jason upgrading Jason who is

01:21:34 ◼   ► not me says face ID on iPad means iOS 12 is definitely going to have support for multiple

01:21:39 ◼   ► faces it doesn't make sense otherwise right I don't I don't see where how you got from

01:21:46 ◼   ► a to be yeah I I agree I think I think the suggestion there is that on iPad iPad is more

01:21:53 ◼   ► of a multiple user device although Apple has not proven that since they even you know they

01:21:58 ◼   ► don't let regular people use a multiple user feature on iPad and the one on schools is

01:22:02 ◼   ► kind of super weird and janky for school use the iOS 12 beta has this additional appearance

01:22:09 ◼   ► kind of thing for faces and I think that is their way of letting you get multiple faces

01:22:17 ◼   ► in there in some way but I think that's probably it unless there's like a an announcement that

01:22:22 ◼   ► goes on with like new hardware that says we're explicitly going to support multiple faces

01:22:28 ◼   ► on new hardware and I think that only makes it like I don't really think the iPads multiple

01:22:34 ◼   ► user like people use it that way but it's not what I want to see is true multi-user

01:22:39 ◼   ► support for everybody and think you know hold my breath for a while longer I think yeah

01:22:46 ◼   ► I actually checked slack to see if John Siracusa had already complained to us now he's got

01:22:51 ◼   ► a job yeah he's not listening to us now he'll complain later but it's like the developer

01:22:55 ◼   ► preview yeah that would have been a good one too um listener Chris wrote in to say how

01:23:00 ◼   ► do you pocket your phone bottom up or down screen facing toward or away from your leg

01:23:05 ◼   ► that's good I've been very consistent with this it's my front right pocket with nothing

01:23:12 ◼   ► else in it and it is bottom down so notch first on the iPhone 10 and screen facing the

01:23:20 ◼   ► leg not first is not first is bottom up yeah you said bottom down bottom but the top goes

01:23:30 ◼   ► in first yes is very confusing notch down notch down notch down in your right pocket

01:23:35 ◼   ► and the screen is facing your leg yes even though in the iPhone 10 it's more expensive

01:23:39 ◼   ► to break the back than the front screen and feels much better to my mind so that's a good

01:23:45 ◼   ► point I hadn't even thought of that because yeah for me it's a left pocket and it is notched

01:23:51 ◼   ► down and the screen facing my leg so that if if it if there's some cataclysm that hits

01:23:59 ◼   ► my leg it'll hit the back of my phone but yeah yeah and that way then I reach in with

01:24:04 ◼   ► my left hand and pick it up and I got my phone good question though Daniel wants to know

01:24:12 ◼   ► will Apple be able to fix the MacBook keyboards without the seemingly essential step of making

01:24:17 ◼   ► the devices thicker haven't they painted themselves into a thinness corner could they could they

01:24:23 ◼   ► stomach thicker MacBook pros I mean I think this may have come in before the the announcement

01:24:29 ◼   ► but I think there's a truth in this right which is if they wanted to do something truly

01:24:34 ◼   ► different they would need to redesign the case and they may do that in terms I mean

01:24:42 ◼   ► the MacBook Air is pretty thin and it's got more key travel so like if they wanted to

01:24:47 ◼   ► introduce more key travel I am confident that the that the Wizards at Apple could do that

01:24:52 ◼   ► but they won't do it in the existing hardware generation because I think there's just that's

01:24:56 ◼   ► way too complex to tweak something that major and keep everything else the same at that

01:25:01 ◼   ► point you're just redesigning the entire case and so I think if it happens at all it would

01:25:06 ◼   ► have to happen a year or two out when they do a new hardware generation agreed I totally

01:25:13 ◼   ► agree okay Zach wants to know a serious post wedding question who was the Apple related

01:25:21 ◼   ► tech podcast designated survivor who was not in London in case of a disaster in London

01:25:28 ◼   ► who did we designate to carry on for us and I was thinking about it's like like you know

01:25:33 ◼   ► there's a bunch like grouper I guess Dan Moran Merlin there's you know there's lots of there's

01:25:41 ◼   ► lots of podcasters out there who aren't who aren't the entire cast of relay who was there

01:25:47 ◼   ► yeah Myke doesn't have Myke doesn't co-host a podcast with everybody it would have been

01:25:52 ◼   ► fine just most people yeah no ATP would have been gone there ATP would have been eradicated

01:25:57 ◼   ► it's true yeah and upgrade and a bunch of the relay podcast but there are many look

01:26:02 ◼   ► accidentally terminated by yeah I was gonna say to take a page from the Marvel movies

01:26:07 ◼   ► cut off one podcaster and two will take its place so don't don't worry about it there's

01:26:14 ◼   ► always more podcasters very messy but it is how it works yeah that's totally how it works

01:26:18 ◼   ► don't try this at home Pat wants to know do you think Apple would ever consider making

01:26:23 ◼   ► a compact iPhone in the spirit of the old candy bar size phones possibly running a beefed

01:26:28 ◼   ► up version of watch OS not the iPhone SE something even smaller and simpler at the

01:26:32 ◼   ► two 199 to 249 price point no I don't think Apple cares about that market you know there's

01:26:40 ◼   ► a report out today that they're like bleeding money in India I just don't think I don't

01:26:45 ◼   ► think this is a product they want to make I I agree with you I think that I think that's

01:26:50 ◼   ► the that's the simple version of that is I have a hard time seeing Apple investing a

01:26:54 ◼   ► lot of money and creating almost a different platform just to make a $200 phone I think

01:26:59 ◼   ► they would rather try to sell the iPhone from three years ago in those markets or something

01:27:05 ◼   ► like the SE and I don't I don't think they want to go below that the same reason this

01:27:08 ◼   ► is by the way the exact same reason why I don't think Apple will make a $400 laptop

01:27:13 ◼   ► running Mac OS because they're not interested in that market they're just they're never

01:27:18 ◼   ► going to do that that's why there's also not going to be a $99 iPad not interested yeah

01:27:22 ◼   ► just that's not the that's not Apple's business model Corey wants to know will we see USB

01:27:28 ◼   ► C on iPhones and iPads that's interesting I mean I think there were some speculation

01:27:35 ◼   ► that the USB C like the female port and all kind of the stuff the structure around it

01:27:40 ◼   ► is thicker than what they what lightning requires and we all know Apple likes thinness I don't

01:27:48 ◼   ► know what USB C gives them that lightning doesn't because you can do fast charging over

01:27:53 ◼   ► lightning you can do USB 3 transfers over lightning and the downside is you have to

01:27:59 ◼   ► live through another port transition and those of us who around during the dock connector

01:28:04 ◼   ► to lightning switch we all have scars from that because everyone freaked out and I don't

01:28:09 ◼   ► think Apple wants to do that again and so I don't know what it gets them and there's

01:28:13 ◼   ► a big downside so I think I think they're fine with lightning yeah what do you think

01:28:16 ◼   ► I think that's true I think I mean we're it sounds like the rumors are we're going to

01:28:20 ◼   ► see a USB C transition on the charging end this time which is fine because you can put

01:28:27 ◼   ► more power through that cable and they're going to have a bigger adapter and it's great

01:28:30 ◼   ► that's fine on the other other side yeah I don't see it either like Apple went to all

01:28:34 ◼   ► the trouble Apple new USB C was coming and they went to all the trouble of making lightning

01:28:37 ◼   ► I'm not sure if they had known and didn't do anything like I it would seem like a really

01:28:44 ◼   ► weird sidestep for them to now move and lightning serves their purposes better on those devices

01:28:49 ◼   ► than USB C that said I'm gonna I'm gonna put this out there again wearing my hat as sorry

01:28:56 ◼   ► that's gonna make you feel like you're unconnected for a minute where where my hat is an iPad

01:28:59 ◼   ► person oh yeah I think the iPad Pro needs USB C needs should get USB C because I think

01:29:07 ◼   ► part of the transition in the iPad Pro to truly being a kind of like professional level

01:29:11 ◼   ► device over time maybe not this year but sometime is have a little bit better USB device support

01:29:17 ◼   ► and that has to be in the OS and then have a USB port and like it's like a computer because

01:29:23 ◼   ► there's stuff that uses USB and you know it would be like oh you don't need to buy a dongle

01:29:27 ◼   ► for that it's just got a USB C on it do I think that will actually happen no I don't

01:29:32 ◼   ► I think the best we can hope for is that there will be a little a little dongle that will

01:29:36 ◼   ► continue to be a USB 3 lightning dongle it would be nice if maybe you know it would be

01:29:43 ◼   ► nice if they didn't it would be nice if they they said yeah it really is a computer it

01:29:46 ◼   ► even has a USB port but the problem with that is that that actually requires a major iOS

01:29:53 ◼   ► update to support more USB devices than they currently support but you know some of it's

01:29:57 ◼   ► already there they could do more and I would like to see it on that side but I think that's

01:30:01 ◼   ► the only place in iOS that you would likely see it as if they made either an iPad Pro

01:30:05 ◼   ► with a USB port or if they made an iOS laptop at some point that iBook mythical iBook that

01:30:10 ◼   ► would be again a place where you might see a USB C port that's about it yeah I can I

01:30:15 ◼   ► can go with that uh Bosey wants to know to wrap us up how's Myke handling England's World

01:30:22 ◼   ► Cup loss to Croatia I mean he's not even here he's so torn up about it yeah I don't think

01:30:30 ◼   ► Myke cares he does he Myke literally you know there are two kinds of nerds in our our community

01:30:35 ◼   ► the ones who care about sports or sport and the ones who don't and Myke is firmly in the

01:30:40 ◼   ► ones who don't to the point where I'll put it this way Myke and Adina's wedding reception

01:30:46 ◼   ► we mentioned this last week was on it happened during England's World Cup match with Sweden

01:30:53 ◼   ► and the venue for the reception said we could put a TV somewhere if people really want to

01:30:58 ◼   ► watch England and first Myke is thinking well most of the people here are from not all but

01:31:03 ◼   ► many of the people like what 80% of the people at the wedding 90% of the people at the wedding

01:31:08 ◼   ► are either Americans or Romanians so they don't care very few Swedes some English people

01:31:16 ◼   ► and then second he didn't want that to become the center of attention of his wedding reception

01:31:21 ◼   ► so those of us who cared were like checking our phones and but this is my point is if

01:31:28 ◼   ► my wedding reception was happening during a World Series game featuring my favorite

01:31:31 ◼   ► team there would be a TV Myke was not just I think he made the right call but it also

01:31:40 ◼   ► was because he just doesn't care and that's fine I think that was the right call regardless

01:31:44 ◼   ► but it made easier by the fact that he didn't care well that is all of ask upgrade Stephen

01:31:50 ◼   ► Hackett thank you so much for joining me as my special guest in the summer of fun while

01:31:56 ◼   ► Myke is off splish splashing around in his own honeymoon in a tropical location yeah

01:32:02 ◼   ► I can't believe he's taken almost four years for soon upgrade to go well you know it was

01:32:06 ◼   ► at the beginning it was like well I could always use Stephen as the guest host but it's

01:32:11 ◼   ► like oh but what if I got Merlin what if I got Serenity what if I got John Siracusa I

01:32:15 ◼   ► thought you know the result of that is that I've never had you as the guest upgrade so

01:32:19 ◼   ► I thought this would be a good time we also do other podcasts together we should point

01:32:23 ◼   ► out we do lift off every other week about space and related subjects and you should

01:32:28 ◼   ► listen to it because you don't have to be a rocket scientist to care about what goes

01:32:32 ◼   ► on in space we care and we're not rocket scientists and then every week we do we do download together

01:32:38 ◼   ► that is sort of put out there as download with with me but Stephen is the producer of

01:32:44 ◼   ► download and appears on almost every episode and will sometimes jump in but also helps

01:32:48 ◼   ► put it together which is part of the the subnet plan as well because you're watching the headlines

01:32:53 ◼   ► for subnet and also for download and it all kind of goes together so so it's not like

01:32:57 ◼   ► we don't talk but but not on on upgrade it took it took us 202 episodes to get there

01:33:03 ◼   ► so thank you well I'll be glad to be back anytime well we'll have to have you back and

01:33:08 ◼   ► before episode 404 hopefully that episode 404 file not found anyway and that we found

01:33:13 ◼   ► so next week the summer of fun rolls on yes indeed summer with a surprise guest or two

01:33:22 ◼   ► I will tell you it is two surprise guests plus coming in live from his honeymoon not

01:33:27 ◼   ► true pre-taped Myke Hurley as well and we have a great episode that we recorded a few

01:33:34 ◼   ► weeks ago about iPad and iPad productivity and I was 12 on the iPad and a whole bunch

01:33:40 ◼   ► of other stuff like that great guests you're gonna love it that'll be next week and I want

01:33:46 ◼   ► to thank our sponsors because Myke always does that because he's very nice mail route

01:33:50 ◼   ► pingdom and anchor and until next week say goodbye Stephen Hackett adios bye everybody

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