197: Banana Royale


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, Episode 197. Today's show is brought to you by

00:00:14   Linode Freshbooks and Casper. My name is Myke Hurley, and I

00:00:17   am joined by Mr. Jason Snell. Howdy, Jason Snell.

00:00:20   Hello, Mr. Myke Hurley. It's nice to be back.

00:00:23   Well, yes. It's not so nice for me. I am struggling with

00:00:29   jet lag but nobody cares about that because we have a special guest haha you thought was going

00:00:33   to snow talk but i was not um we would like to welcome james thompson to the show purely because

00:00:38   he's in jason's house hi james i want to know why you're recording a podcast in my bedroom it's

00:00:43   good question i have no good answers it was easier to let me join in the podcast and get me out of

00:00:49   the room basically yeah yeah yeah james thompson is currently staying in the recording studio at

00:00:56   Snow Towers. So here we go. We're all together. But it is a perfect time to have a guest like

00:01:03   James because we have a lot of things to talk about, many more things to reflect on from

00:01:07   last week. But before we do, I have a #snowtalk question and it comes from Rick. And Rick

00:01:12   wants to know, "Jason, did you try one of those whizzy new scooters in San Jose at WWDC

00:01:18   last week?"

00:01:19   Well, we had a great Clockwise episode that I was on where I was asked about scooters

00:01:26   and I said, "Are you kidding? I have a family. I have so much to live for. Why would I ride

00:01:31   on one of those scooters?" And then you know what happened, Myke? Tiffany Arment happened.

00:01:38   She basically said, "Oh, man, you got to try the scooters. They're so fun. They're so fun.

00:01:42   You don't even have to sign up for an account. I'll just..." And this is violating the terms

00:01:46   of service of the scooter, by the way. "I'll just check one out and you can just ride it

00:01:50   around!" And I agreed to that, because she's very persuasive. And then I rode a scooter.

00:01:56   And we literally saw people with broken legs from the scooter.

00:02:01   Yeah, and then she texted you, Myke, and said, "Jason's riding a scooter, get down here!"

00:02:05   And I ran as fast as I could to see Jason flowing in the wind on a very speedy scooter.

00:02:13   My hoodie was trailing behind me like a magnificent cape.

00:02:16   Mhm, it was wonderful.

00:02:18   Thank you so much to Rick for his #SnailTalk question.

00:02:20   If you would like to open the show, just send in a tweet with the #SnailTalk and you may

00:02:24   be picked for a future episode.

00:02:26   Speaking of last week, what a week it was, eh?

00:02:29   We had a very good week, I think.

00:02:32   Lots of content put out into the world.

00:02:35   If you have not heard episode 196 of Connected, I recommend that you do so.

00:02:40   It was a Real AFM variety extravaganza, as well as the Connected Crew.

00:02:46   The show was opened wonderfully by Stephen Hackett, Jason Snell, and Serenity Koldwar.

00:02:50   They had a really great discussion before the Connected Crew caused a ruckus, I guess

00:02:56   would be the best way to describe it.

00:02:58   Yeah, there was some nonsense.

00:02:59   We got all of the sensible stuff at the beginning, all of the actual good discussion, and then

00:03:03   there was trophies and all kinds of nonsense.

00:03:05   So I recommend that you read it and I will say again, Jason, thank you so much for being

00:03:10   a part of that show, it was great to have you.

00:03:13   Yes, you should definitely read that podcast.

00:03:15   Or listen to it, whatever, Myke's jet lagged, it's fine.

00:03:18   Did I say read?

00:03:19   Yes.

00:03:20   Oh my God.

00:03:21   I quit.

00:03:22   Read the podcast, people.

00:03:23   Bye everyone!

00:03:24   Thanks for listening to episode 197 of Upgrade.

00:03:30   Are you pivoting to text?

00:03:32   Is that where we're going?

00:03:33   Yeah, that's it, that's where all the money is, is what I'm told.

00:03:37   We did announce at the end of that episode that we're going to be doing some live shows

00:03:42   in October and Chicago is going to be one of them.

00:03:46   Relay FM members had a first crack at the tickets but if you go to our show notes this

00:03:51   week at relay.fm/upgrades/197 or look in your podcast player of choice, we have a very small

00:03:59   number of tickets left as at the time of recording, just 20.

00:04:04   So if you want to come see me and Jason and a special guest or two in Chicago in October,

00:04:10   go to the show notes, click on the link and you may be able to come and join us and we

00:04:14   hope to see you there.

00:04:15   Looking forward to that, more live shows.

00:04:19   Will this be our first ever upgrade of an audience?

00:04:23   Oh, will it?

00:04:25   It might be.

00:04:26   We've done lots of shows together, we've been on many, like we've had audiences together

00:04:31   but I don't think we've ever done an episode of Upgrade of an audience before.

00:04:36   Not technically. I think that may be right.

00:04:38   But you can...

00:04:39   Well, it's time.

00:04:40   This is just the beginning. It's just the beginning, right? Of the Upgrade world tour.

00:04:46   I think that's...

00:04:47   Which has one stop right now, which is in Chicago.

00:04:49   Yes. I mean, it's a very slow-moving tour.

00:04:53   Would you say it's the first annual Upgrade tour?

00:04:56   I wouldn't want to say that, because I don't know if we were doing it again, it would be

00:05:00   in October you know like what if we did it in like May or something who knows

00:05:03   that's true it could be more than annual exactly I hope so I hope so all right so

00:05:09   there you go come see us in Chicago we look forward to performing in front of

00:05:14   you I guess I have some very very slow late follow-up about home pods before

00:05:21   WWDC like just after the draft iOS 11.4 was released and it included Airplay 2

00:05:28   too. And Jason, I wanted to get your quick impressions on what it's like to run stereo

00:05:34   home pods and have multiple home pods in your house because I know that you have that and

00:05:37   you've tested that.

00:05:38   JASON: Yeah, I had a, I actually had a second home pod in a box unopened and I just would

00:05:45   walk by the box going, "Someday. Someday I'll take you out of the box and we'll try AirPlay

00:05:50   2 and stereo pairing." And so I did that, the date finally arrived and it's stereo.

00:05:56   exciting if you play stuff that's got pretty strong stereo panning like I like to do the

00:06:02   Beatles because that was in the early days of stereo where they did a lot of sort of

00:06:06   just panning everything hard to the right or to the left.

00:06:09   Everyone was super excited about this new technology so they just went wild with it.

00:06:12   I think some engineers were excited about it. I think what I've read about the Beatles

00:06:16   is that the artists were kind of like they thought it was like an afterthought like the

00:06:20   stereo mix in Sgt. Pepper that everybody has heard when they did the remixed version, the

00:06:25   remastered version last year, they said that they weren't even around for the stereo mix.

00:06:29   They sweated the mono mix, and then they just let their engineers screw around with the

00:06:34   stereo mix, and so they tried to make a better stereo mix this time. So, you know, somebody

00:06:40   was in Abre'd with the idea of, "Oh, on Norwegian wood, we can pan the sitar all the way to

00:06:44   the left and the guitar all the way to the right, and we can just do that." And on the

00:06:49   HomePod by itself, there's no stereo panning. Like, it doesn't exist. It's not a thing.

00:06:53   it tries to do a bunch of 3D audio stuff, but what it's not doing is trying to

00:06:57   represent the audio field of the stereo signal. It's trying to create

00:07:02   its own sort of 3D audio field based on how it's interpreting the sound. But if

00:07:07   you put two home pods in a stereo pair, which is fairly easy to do, you

00:07:11   basically say, "Yes, I do want to put these two home pods in the same room," and it

00:07:16   asks you if you want to be in a stereo pair, and then that's it. It's done, and it

00:07:21   looks like one HomePod and you can play to it.

00:07:23   And then you get that sort of stuff in the left

00:07:26   and stuff in the right.

00:07:27   And it fills my front room much more effectively

00:07:32   than the single HomePod does.

00:07:33   For a price because the HomePod's not cheap

00:07:36   and you have to have two of them to do this.

00:07:39   And the other thing, if you've got two HomePods

00:07:41   you can do with AirPlay 2 is it's more easily,

00:07:43   from an iOS device or even on the HomePod itself to say,

00:07:48   play the song in these rooms and then you get multi-room audio too, which is not a new

00:07:53   thing but it's new for the HomePod.

00:07:56   Do you think that there's going to be a time when Apple tries to sell you a two-pack? Do

00:08:01   you think that's a thing that they might do?

00:08:04   You know, given that we've heard that HomePod sales are slow, I wonder if they will offer

00:08:08   -- I don't know about a two-pack, but like a deal, like a buy one, get one for half off

00:08:14   kind of thing.

00:08:15   than like one box, like you know, like the Amazon thing.

00:08:18   - I was thinking, yeah, a six pack of tablets,

00:08:22   yeah, exactly right.

00:08:23   Well, I was thinking like Costco.

00:08:24   Are you gonna see a HomePods at Costco,

00:08:26   but you have to buy two?

00:08:27   - You could imagine, like, you know,

00:08:28   'cause they're round like that, you know,

00:08:30   you could put them in one of those little

00:08:31   can holder type things, you know?

00:08:33   You could just walk around, it would be great,

00:08:34   like a little cup holder.

00:08:35   - Like a tube of Life Savers,

00:08:38   except there are HomePods inside,

00:08:39   and you just squeeze out a couple of HomePods

00:08:41   when you need 'em, sure.

00:08:42   - So many great packaging opportunities.

00:08:44   Why are we not in charge of marketing?

00:08:46   - I know, right?

00:08:47   But yeah, it does seem like eventually they're gonna say,

00:08:50   oh, the HomePod is now this,

00:08:51   and you can buy two for this, right?

00:08:53   Like that seems like a way to maybe sell them

00:08:57   a little bit more.

00:08:57   - If they wanna spur sales, they could do that.

00:09:01   They could also make an argument that bundling,

00:09:04   they could say, this is great for stereo pairs,

00:09:06   or it's great for two rooms,

00:09:07   and you can spread the music around your house,

00:09:09   and just do some marketing that they couldn't do before

00:09:12   to try and move these and move more of them.

00:09:14   and you know, we'll see how confident they are in the product, but given the reports

00:09:19   about how well it is not selling, maybe doing some discounting for bundles would be a good

00:09:25   idea.

00:09:26   One of the things at WWDC when we were wandering around, there were just home pods everywhere.

00:09:32   You'd sort of turn around and there was a home pod just sitting there playing some light

00:09:35   jazz in the background or something.

00:09:37   So inexplicably, like, "We're still here! We exist!"

00:09:43   The announcement of Siri shortcuts and the idea that it can be triggered from HomePod

00:09:47   is making me want a HomePod mini to put in my office, like I have an Echo Dot in here.

00:09:54   I want just a little thing that's purely for voice commands rather than music.

00:10:01   I wonder if Apple will make a product like that.

00:10:04   I know I can have my iPhone do a lot of this stuff, but I still don't know if I want to

00:10:10   turn on or high telephone on my iPhone. I still not sure about that and it might be

00:10:16   nice to just have a little dedicated, just tiny little puck to do it but we'll see. I

00:10:20   think they're probably not going to do this and even if they do release a smaller cheaper

00:10:25   one, it will still be music focused, right? So it will still be a good speaker but I'm

00:10:30   keen to see what they do. I mean all of Apple's competitors now have multiple form factors

00:10:35   for their speakers and I wonder if they're going to do the same. I still haven't made

00:10:40   my mind up on that. Alright, should we do Upstream? We should get the triumph from Return

00:10:44   of Upstream. There's been a lot happening.

00:10:46   Yeah, there's a lot. It's sort of like that delayed follow-up earlier, that a bunch of

00:10:51   stuff going on that we haven't, that we should at least mention is happening in the digital

00:10:56   media world. Most notably, I think, because I don't think we mentioned on the show before,

00:11:02   is that for all of our talk about Disney buying Fox, Comcast is now bidding for Fox too, so

00:11:07   yet another major media company says that they want to make a bid. Apparently

00:11:12   they approached the Fox board during Fox's negotiations with Disney and made

00:11:19   an offer or had a prospective offer and Fox turned them down. They didn't think

00:11:24   it was as good a fit for the company, but Comcast is sort of redoubling its

00:11:29   efforts. There's going to be a shareholder meeting in July. So that

00:11:34   makes it sound like Comcast is going to make the argument that it may not be as good a

00:11:38   fit but will give you more money, shareholders. Just bottom line, will give you more money.

00:11:43   And it sounds like that's been their game all along is that the Fox board would really

00:11:47   prefer to sell to Disney. They think it's just a better fit overall for the Fox company

00:11:52   to go to the parts of it that are being sold to go to Disney. It may mean that Disney will

00:11:59   ultimately need to sweeten its offer. It may mean that Comcast will be the owner

00:12:04   of Fox and it may also be that the shareholders will take the board's

00:12:07   advice and reject the offer. But some extra drama in what was sort of

00:12:14   assumed to be a done deal and I guess we'll get the final outcome in July.

00:12:18   I love this one line that I keep seeing everywhere which is how Comcast have

00:12:22   described their offer. They said it is at least as favorable to Fox shareholders

00:12:27   as the Disney offer. It's like the most noncommittal. It's at least as favorable.

00:12:32   Jonathan, show yourself too much.

00:12:34   It's between good and good plus.

00:12:37   Yeah! Yeah! This is some news that I know you're excited about, Jason. Amazon has

00:12:44   saved the expanse.

00:12:45   Yeah, the expanse, we talked about that. That's the example of a show that had its rights

00:12:50   sold in a weird way where it's what they call SVOD, but it's streaming video on demand.

00:12:55   streaming rights in the US went to Amazon, so it would air on sci-fi channel, and then

00:13:00   it would air on Amazon streaming later, and then on Netflix and most of the rest of the

00:13:04   world, and Comcast actually, Universal, that owns the sci-fi channel, said that that was

00:13:10   not -- they couldn't pencil it out, they couldn't make that work, given the ratings on the linear

00:13:14   TV, and that's all they got out of that show, and so they cancelled it. And there were rumors

00:13:19   out there that Amazon was interested and that Jeb Bezos actually likes that show, it's one

00:13:24   of his favorite shows. That s good to have a billionaire on your side for something like

00:13:27   that. And not only did it get picked up, but it got picked up the way the pickup was announced

00:13:32   was there was a space conference and Jeff Bezos was on stage talking about his space

00:13:38   company Blue Origin and somebody asked about will you save the expanse and Jeff Bezos said

00:13:45   I believe the expanse is saved. At which point people in the crowd stood up and began to

00:13:51   cheer, which seemed weird until you saw who the people were. It was a setup. It was literally

00:13:56   the cast of The Expanse in the audience cheering the Jeff Bezos.

00:14:01   That was a great little moment. I saw that too.

00:14:03   Nice little stagecraft. So anyway, that show, which I like a lot and is still airing its

00:14:07   third season on Sci-Fi Channel, will be back on Amazon for a fourth season. I haven't heard

00:14:14   any details of it. Did they pick it up for one season? How many episodes? When do they

00:14:20   think that it's gonna run, is it gonna run, I imagine they'll drop it in a big binge blob

00:14:25   like these services do. Not a lot of details there, but they stopped packing away the sets,

00:14:32   so that's a good sign.

00:14:33   I'm looking forward to the Blue Origin branding on all the spaceships.

00:14:36   Yeah, that's right.

00:14:37   What is that?

00:14:38   It's all about synergy.

00:14:39   Vertical integration.

00:14:40   It's vertical integration.

00:14:41   There you go.

00:14:42   Netflix Chief Content Officer Ted Sarandos says that the upcoming programming from the

00:14:47   Obama family will apparently not have a political slant. This still feels like to me, I'll

00:14:54   wait until I see it. I understand maybe what they're trying to do here, they're saying

00:15:00   they're not making it the Obama network, they're not going to just put on loads of

00:15:04   political campaign ads or whatever I guess, but I'm keen to see what it ends up looking

00:15:10   like, but at least they're going to try to not make it too political I guess, but

00:15:15   I still think the proof will be in the pudding on that one.

00:15:18   - Yeah, I mean, this is the real question is,

00:15:20   do they wanna lean into the sort of like public service

00:15:23   that this story says, you know,

00:15:25   scripted and unscripted material?

00:15:30   I got a little bit of an Oprah kind of vibe almost, right?

00:15:33   Where it was like, you know,

00:15:35   we were gonna do things that are promoting positivity

00:15:38   in the world and seeing, you know,

00:15:40   inspirational stories and things like that.

00:15:43   And that's fine, that's fine.

00:15:45   But yeah, we'll see what does this look like,

00:15:47   and we'll have to see about that.

00:15:49   I get that from Netflix's perspective on one level,

00:15:51   they don't want to be seen as just the Obama network.

00:15:55   At the same time, Netflix is so huge,

00:15:57   and they program for so many different audiences that,

00:16:00   quite honestly, if they did make something that was political,

00:16:04   it's going to be--

00:16:05   it'll appeal to who it appeals to and nobody else.

00:16:08   And I think that may be fine for Netflix overall.

00:16:11   But we'll-- I'll believe it when I see it.

00:16:14   That's the bottom line. What does a scripted program produced by the

00:16:20   Obamas look like? I don't even know. Maybe nothing. Maybe it just looks like a show

00:16:24   and that they're just in the TV business and they're entertainment moguls, but it

00:16:27   seems like that's not what a post-presidential position should be.

00:16:33   So we'll see. Again, I'm going to put in my plug. I would love to see the

00:16:35   equivalent of presidential memoirs done as a documentary series. I think that

00:16:39   would be amazing.

00:16:40   I don't think they'll do it, but I would love to see that.

00:16:44   And finally, Matt Groening's Disenchantment debuts on August 17th on Netflix. It is a

00:16:53   two-season show, 20 episodes in total. It is a cartoon, as you can imagine, it's a cartoon

00:17:00   series with adult-oriented humor, think Bojack Horseman, but it is a fantasy series set in

00:17:06   a medieval kingdom and there's been a bunch of images released as well as some details

00:17:10   and it obviously is in the typical Graining style as well. Are you excited for this?

00:17:17   Yeah, I'm intrigued by it. I liked the Simpsons, we actually just dropped the Simpsons quote

00:17:25   draft episode of The Incomparable this weekend so people can listen to that and find out

00:17:31   what John Syracuse thinks are the best Simpsons lines of all time. And I liked Futurama a

00:17:37   lot and so and I think Matt Groening's cartoons are great and I've thought that since college.

00:17:45   So I'm intrigued by this idea. I love the idea that he is a nerd who likes to take well

00:17:51   trod upon nerd genres and topics and spin them into something you know funny and different

00:17:59   Futurama obviously is like all about science fiction tropes. This is going to be all about

00:18:03   kind of fantasy tropes and then twisting them. And so I'm looking forward to it. It looks

00:18:08   like it could be very interesting. We'll see. I mean, you got to see it to see whether it's

00:18:14   any good, but I'm intrigued and I got to like his batting average, right? His shows that

00:18:21   he's been involved with have been very good. So we'll see if this one is.

00:18:25   And it seems that this has got a lot of the Futurama cast doing voice stuff.

00:18:30   Also I noticed Matt Berry and Noel Fielding turning up in the cast list, which is interesting.

00:18:38   But yeah, I haven't seen if it's got the Futurama writers associated with it.

00:18:43   There isn't really much information about that stuff.

00:18:46   So Futurama is one of my favourite shows.

00:18:50   So if this is Futurama but in medieval world, I would be very interested.

00:18:57   Pasturama.

00:18:58   Oh, Jason!

00:18:59   That was very good.

00:19:02   It was not good.

00:19:04   Very good.

00:19:06   It's ended the segment.

00:19:08   This episode is brought to you by FreshBooks.

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00:20:46   freshbooks.com/upgrade and enter the code upgrade in the how did you hear about us section.

00:20:51   We thank FreshBooks for their continued support of this show and Relay FM. So Jason, what

00:20:57   betas are you currently running on your devices?

00:21:02   On my primary devices I'm running nothing. I have an iPhone that is now running iOS 12

00:21:12   but it's an unused iPhone and I've got my external SSD running as it did last summer,

00:21:22   did the summer before running Mojave. So I am booting into or picking up a different device to

00:21:30   look at the betas but I'm not I've not yet put them on my production machines because to reiterate

00:21:38   my statements of earlier in this episode I have a family I have so much to live for. Now James you

00:21:45   are traveling right now because typically you are to be found in Glasgow but you are also a

00:21:52   a developer, have you installed any betas on your devices?

00:21:56   No, because I like Jason.

00:22:00   Well, I don't have a family, but I like my data.

00:22:04   And while traveling, I was tempted this morning

00:22:07   to put it on my phone before the show, and I was like,

00:22:11   don't do that. You've got a few more days in the US.

00:22:14   It could all go horribly wrong.

00:22:17   And also, I was tempted to be installing it while we were recording.

00:22:21   And then I thought, no, the drama of when I look down and see my phone smoking quietly

00:22:30   in the corner, I didn't think that was worth it.

00:22:34   Nobody will be seated during the iOS beta installation portion of the program.

00:22:39   What I have heard is that this beta is actually very solid, so I think as soon as I get back

00:22:45   I will put it on my main phone.

00:22:46   James, I feel like you're shaming me right now by saying beta.

00:22:51   I feel like I'm being publicly shamed because I say beta.

00:22:54   Myke's not British enough!

00:22:56   No, well, I mean, you know, you've been Americanized, it's fine.

00:22:59   I did, I did yesterday when I got home,

00:23:01   uh, Adina was cooking some food for me and I asked her about tomatoes,

00:23:05   and she says "What's happened to you?"

00:23:07   [laughter]

00:23:08   Wow. I mean, I'd like to say it's just because you've been out here for a week,

00:23:12   but you were doing that before, huh?

00:23:12   No, no, it's nothing to do.

00:23:14   It's the first time I've talked to Jason for multiple hours every week,

00:23:16   that's what it really is.

00:23:17   That's it?

00:23:18   I have also felt the call of iOS 12, but have yet to install it on any of my devices.

00:23:25   I'm just seeing if I can hold off a little bit longer, but I have spent, as I'm sure we all have,

00:23:33   quite a bit of time, especially last week, with people's devices who have installed iOS 12.

00:23:39   So I have some more thoughts, as I'm sure that you both do, about just some of the things that we didn't get to cover

00:23:45   to cover in a lot of detail last week because we hadn't yet seen them. I wanted to talk

00:23:50   about Memoji. I also want to talk about some of the changes to Messages. It basically feels

00:23:58   like Apple is furthering their attempts at making Messages a social platform in a way.

00:24:06   Because they've done a bunch of very interesting things with the camera. So the camera now

00:24:12   in

00:24:28   randomly that right now it seems like only some stickers are popping up and you can actually

00:24:33   attach stickers to your face and move your face around and the stickers stay attached

00:24:41   to your face. It's very interesting.

00:24:44   So Federico had an amazing idea which I will give him the credit for. I'm looking at doing

00:24:50   a sticker pack, it may involve pandas, but he said, "Why not make a sticker which was

00:24:57   like a panda mask that you could put over your face?"

00:25:01   Oh god, that sounds horrifying. No, no, it sounds cute, Myke. It's not horrifying

00:25:05   at all. When you see a cartoon panda mask with real

00:25:09   human eyes, that is a horror show. I look forward to seeing how it looks, though.

00:25:15   But yeah, with the eyes cut out, and then your eyes through it, I think that would be

00:25:20   delightful.

00:25:21   And maybe your mouth inside its mouth.

00:25:24   Oh god!

00:25:25   So again, as with most of your wild ideas, I thoroughly recommend that you do it, but

00:25:30   I believe it will be some kind of horror.

00:25:35   I wish to say this was Federico's idea, not mine.

00:25:39   He is the horror master.

00:25:40   Wow, it sounded like you were giving him credit and it turns out you were just giving him

00:25:43   blame.

00:25:44   the bus. Yes. Yeah. Um, I am very excited to play around with this stuff the most. Honestly,

00:25:51   the thing that makes me want to install iOS 12 is Memoji. It's why I haven't installed

00:25:56   it on my iPad yet because I figure I don't want to put, I don't really want to put multiple

00:26:01   devices in the beta right now, but it's making me, and the reason I haven't put on any iPad

00:26:05   is I want to put on my iPhone so I can play with Memoji more. And I have played around

00:26:10   a bunch I've created. I have kind of left a litter of my own face on people's devices.

00:26:15   I've kind of just been picking up people's devices, making my own face and giving it

00:26:19   back to them. I am really, really impressed by just how good the animations are and I

00:26:27   think a lot of that has come from the eye tracking and stuff that they're doing as well.

00:26:32   It really adds a lot of life. You know, they spent a lot of time showing tongues, right,

00:26:36   detection which works and is also very hilarious but obviously a lot of the eye tracking stuff

00:26:43   that they've been doing with ARKit2 also makes an appearance in Memoji and really helps add

00:26:50   to the overall character of what you're making.

00:26:53   I know Apple wouldn't do this but I was looking at that and I was thinking in-app purchase

00:26:58   hats.

00:26:59   I mean, I think yes they should do this.

00:27:04   I don't think they're going to charge for it but I really think that frequent releases

00:27:09   of different clothing items would be a good thing.

00:27:15   Or even just seasonal things, right?

00:27:17   You know like Santa hats over the holidays, bunny ears over Easter.

00:27:22   You know like little things that they could do like a jack-o-lantern to put on your head

00:27:25   during Halloween.

00:27:28   Like those things I think would be a lot of fun and I would really like to see them, honestly

00:27:32   I would like to see them do some branded stuff, but I don't see that happening for the foreseeable future.

00:27:37   The other thing I was thinking, which I really think they won't do, is allow third parties to

00:27:43   provide items because you could see, oh, you know, you download some app and you get a little hat,

00:27:50   you know, branded without, or a t-shirt, or you get some, you know, some kind of, not t-shirts,

00:27:56   but you get some kind of props. Just think of what could happen to the podcast merch industry.

00:28:02   - Yep, it goes virtual.

00:28:04   - Dan Morin had a Memoji that he created

00:28:09   that was him wearing his trademark Boston Red Sox hat,

00:28:14   except it was just a blue hat, a blue baseball cap.

00:28:17   And I had that immediate thought of, well, clearly,

00:28:22   the next step is for Apple to make a deal with sports,

00:28:25   franchises, and things like that,

00:28:28   so that you can wear the hat of your baseball team

00:28:31   or whatever.

00:28:32   Yeah, Bitmoji has this already.

00:28:34   Like they do deals with like different sports leagues and stuff to get branded,

00:28:38   branded clothing in there.

00:28:41   And Microsoft did it on the Xbox Live stuff as well.

00:28:44   You know, typically if you completed a game, you might unlock some

00:28:48   stuff related to it.

00:28:51   Yeah, I would I would be very keen, I'm very keen to see what they and

00:28:55   how they end up doing this, but

00:28:58   or if they end up doing anything.

00:28:59   but I am super impressed with the animation of Memoji.

00:29:04   Again, I have no idea how in the long run I will use this,

00:29:09   but the fact that they are creating something which is me,

00:29:12   right, like I can create me,

00:29:14   and it can be used in more places now,

00:29:16   like in FaceTime as well,

00:29:18   I feel like this might get a little bit more use

00:29:20   out of Animoji for me on a long-term basis.

00:29:23   - That's the key to me is the fact that,

00:29:25   'cause we could talk about Animoji and it's like,

00:29:27   oh, they're excited about Memoji, that's great,

00:29:29   They were excited about Animoji last year.

00:29:31   How long did that last?

00:29:32   Not very long.

00:29:33   The difference is that Apple is,

00:29:36   in addition to doing Memoji,

00:29:37   Apple is trying to spread Animoji and Memoji

00:29:42   into other places,

00:29:43   and that is why it will end up being more used

00:29:47   than when it was just in messages

00:29:50   recording those little things.

00:29:51   They're trying to put it in taking pictures

00:29:54   and sharing photos and stuff like that, and in FaceTime.

00:29:57   And it can't extend everywhere, obviously,

00:30:00   but the fact that they're making an effort

00:30:02   to put it in other places,

00:30:03   and I feel like with a Memoji,

00:30:05   you're basically kind of creating an avatar for yourself,

00:30:08   so it could show up in your Apple ID,

00:30:11   in your game center,

00:30:12   and all sorts of other places too down the road.

00:30:14   And I think that's why it will be more persistent

00:30:18   than just stock Animoji in Messages was.

00:30:22   - Or give us access to it in SceneKit and ARKit

00:30:25   and things like that. - Oh boy.

00:30:27   I can throw bananas at James's weird panda mask.

00:30:30   Great.

00:30:31   Exactly.

00:30:32   I've only played around a little bit with so many improvements to notifications,

00:30:38   but overall this seems like really a lot of the stuff that I was looking for.

00:30:43   You know, not just grouping by app, which I'm so pleased they brought back again,

00:30:47   but grouping categories looks really good.

00:30:50   And then all of those instant toggles that you have to turn off notifications

00:30:55   for certain apps and to make quick changes to them.

00:30:57   And they've really simplified the changes,

00:30:59   you know, like deliver quietly.

00:31:01   You know, that is a really nice way of summing up

00:31:04   a bunch of different toggles being turned off.

00:31:07   I am really, really enthused about some of these

00:31:10   notifications improvements and I think it's gonna make

00:31:13   the way that I deal with my own devices

00:31:15   a lot nicer going forward.

00:31:18   - I think the key is that after you use iOS 12

00:31:20   for a little while, you're going to have

00:31:23   gradually gotten push notifications and dismissed them, you know, and said, "I never want to

00:31:31   see this again." And I think that that means that over time as you use it, your experience

00:31:36   will improve. But also think about it this way. For all the times that somebody on the

00:31:40   internet, John Gruber does this a lot, but other people do too, has pointed out annoying

00:31:44   push notifications that apps do. One of the cool things about this feature is that not

00:31:50   only can I unsubscribe from an annoying push notification, something I don't want to see,

00:31:54   or just send it to Notification Center, it actually provides a disincentive for apps

00:32:02   to send too many notifications and notifications that are of the wrong kind, that are too self-serving

00:32:07   and that are useless. Because if you, under iOS 12, if you annoy somebody with a dumb

00:32:11   push notification, they're going to just turn it off right then and there and never see

00:32:15   your push notifications again and that's great because that is not just the user having the

00:32:20   power to block you, it's the fear of angering the user put in the developer and I know I

00:32:27   have a developer near me but like I want the developers to have this calculation of do

00:32:31   I really want to bother them with this and right now they don't seem to worry because

00:32:35   it's so hard to figure out how to turn off a push notification.

00:32:38   Yeah, I am really excited about that too. There is a real big potential here for those

00:32:45   push notifications to really start to go away. Those almost feel like pointless marketing

00:32:50   messages from games and stuff. Like, "Hey! I'm looking at you, Super Mario Run. I'm looking

00:32:57   at you. Oh, we got an event!" It's like, I really just don't.

00:32:59   That's right, it's banana week everybody! Woo!

00:33:02   Yeah, I just don't want that. And also, I saw that there is a way, which I think is

00:33:07   really cool that from a notification you can press a button to go into the app as well

00:33:13   to change the app's specific notifications, not just going into settings. So I think that's

00:33:18   really cool too. Jason, have you taken a look at screen time at all?

00:33:23   I haven't. I haven't had a chance. I mean, honestly, I installed iOS 12 on an iPhone

00:33:30   X specifically to make some Memojis and I haven't looked at screen time. Actually, I

00:33:35   look at it briefly and what it said was, "You have spent a lot of time in messages," because

00:33:41   that's all I was doing on that. So it really, that's going to be when I either install it

00:33:45   on my main iPhone or whether I wait until the public beta and do it then. That's really

00:33:52   what's going to tell the tale. Right now it's not providing a representative sample because

00:33:55   I'm literally just using that phone for trying out features in iOS 12.

00:34:01   Yeah, I mean, I think when I put it on, it's going to be the equivalent of stepping on

00:34:07   the scales, because you're going to look at the results and it's going to set, and you're

00:34:11   going to go, "Oh no."

00:34:14   Because something that I didn't recall or didn't see when we were talking last week,

00:34:20   it's not just how much time you're spending in an application, it also tells you how many

00:34:24   notifications you receive from specific applications as well.

00:34:29   We had somebody, was it Serenity, said that she got like 70 notifications for messages

00:34:33   one day?

00:34:34   Oh, I think it was a three-digit number, honestly.

00:34:38   And that's the kind of stuff where I'm going to be really keen to see, right?

00:34:43   When you take the screen time reports and you look at how you're dealing with notifications

00:34:47   and you can make some things there as well, right?

00:34:51   Like if you look at it and you're like, "Wow, I get 400 Twitter notifications a day.

00:34:55   Maybe I should turn off Twitter notifications."

00:34:57   I think this sort of stuff is going to be really good and I'm keen to see what or if

00:35:02   any recommendations are made to the user by Apple based upon this information.

00:35:09   That I think that's going to be really cool to see as well.

00:35:11   Also there was one little detail that I really like about app limits and this is the ability

00:35:17   to say oh I only want to spend an hour a day in Twitter or whatever.

00:35:21   If an app uses universal linking which is that thing where you tap a Twitter link and

00:35:26   open

00:35:45   Twitter, and then you go and you hit that limit and you go to twitter.com, it shows

00:35:49   you the same thing where it's like, hey, you set a limit for this. And I think that is

00:35:53   really cool. And all the developers that set up universal linking are cursing themselves

00:35:59   right now. So I just thought that that was a really nice, like well thought out implementation

00:36:06   of this and they're using an existing technology to help further make this a more useful thing.

00:36:13   so I thought that was really cool.

00:36:14   And there were a couple of other little details that I saw.

00:36:17   I picked a few up from Dan's great post

00:36:20   on six colors as well.

00:36:22   It's easier to quit apps now.

00:36:23   You don't need to do that press and hold.

00:36:25   You can just swipe them up and they go away,

00:36:28   which I think is great.

00:36:29   - Is that good or is that just sort of giving in

00:36:32   to the people who think that they have to quit their apps?

00:36:35   - Oh no, no, no, no.

00:36:36   I quit apps because things go wrong.

00:36:39   Things break, right?

00:36:40   - I quit apps too.

00:36:41   I just wonder what the rationale was for changing that back.

00:36:44   - I really prefer it this way

00:36:46   because I got so frustrated in having to do that.

00:36:49   Like, oh, well, I would still try it.

00:36:52   I try to flip those apps up and go, why won't you die?

00:36:55   And then it's like, oh, right, I got a hold.

00:36:57   And then I think somebody just said,

00:36:59   this is too much friction.

00:37:02   People are going to,

00:37:03   the problem is people will quit their apps accidentally,

00:37:06   more likely this way.

00:37:08   And you'd think, oh, well, but you've got to swipe up.

00:37:11   This happens to be on the iPad all the time when I swipe into the multi-task view and

00:37:15   I tap an app to bring it forward and my finger skids on the surface of my iPad just a little

00:37:21   and the app goes "whoop" and it's gone and I think "no no no no I wasn't trying to quit

00:37:25   you!"

00:37:26   So I get it, like, you need to look for a bigger swipe gesture on the iPad.

00:37:31   I wonder if they've done that too.

00:37:33   it, I would prefer to not have to wait and hold my finger until we enter quit mode to

00:37:42   do it because sometimes you gotta quit apps.

00:37:46   The swipe gestures on the iPad are not nice right now. They changed the way a lot of it

00:37:53   works and now a quick swipe takes you home. To get to the dock you have to kind of do

00:37:58   to

00:38:13   Like the way that you do this a little bit because they've kind of got it a little bit broken

00:38:16   I think I think the quick swipe should still be bringing up the dock

00:38:20   But they're trying to kind of trying to unify it with the iPhone, but they've gone too far in my opinion

00:38:25   Because the the the iPads action should be quick to get to the dock not to get to home

00:38:31   That's I don't think that's what people are doing. Yeah, but what about the home buttonless iPad Pro that's coming out this

00:38:37   They should swap them around. So like a mid swipe up should take you home in my in my opinion

00:38:42   So like you kind of quick swipe to get to the dock, swipe to the middle of the screen,

00:38:46   takes you home, swipe and hold will get you to multitasking or whatever it's going to be.

00:38:50   Um, I think that making the dock a little bit harder to get to, I don't think is the right way to do it.

00:38:57   Because I feel like post iOS 11 for most, most, uh, iPad users, I think the dock has become more important than the home screen, at least for iPad Pro users, I guess.

00:39:08   Would you agree?

00:39:09   Like, do you find yourself going to the dock more than home?

00:39:12   No, no, I actually, I don't use, I only use the dock essentially to kick off multitasking.

00:39:18   I know it's there and I can open apps and yet I don't. I find myself swiping up.

00:39:24   Maybe they know something that's different to the way I, that me and Federico thinks

00:39:27   it works, right? Like me and Federico use it that way, so we were bemoaning it, but

00:39:32   maybe most iPad users are still going home.

00:39:35   Well, they're trying to get people to use it that way and maybe they should stick with

00:39:40   or maybe they've realized, you know what,

00:39:43   we've trained people to use the home screen

00:39:44   and they're not gonna change.

00:39:45   And that's, I mean, why do I do it that way?

00:39:47   It's 'cause that's how I've always used my iPad

00:39:49   and I can still use it that way.

00:39:50   So I haven't had to learn a new way.

00:39:52   And even though there is a new way,

00:39:53   which is to swipe up and launch an app from the dock,

00:39:56   I find myself doing that all the time.

00:39:57   I've got apps that are the most commonly used apps

00:39:59   that are in my dock and yet I press the button

00:40:02   and then tap on them in the dock.

00:40:04   I don't swipe up the dock and then tap on them.

00:40:06   I just don't.

00:40:07   - Us old people don't like to learn new things really.

00:40:09   - Yeah, right.

00:40:10   And I will learn new things if there's a new way of doing it, but what Apple did was add

00:40:15   a new possibility to the existing old way, at which point it's like, "Well, I don't need

00:40:19   to do that, so I have not embraced the dock."

00:40:22   You've ruined it for everyone, Jason. They were looking at you.

00:40:25   Well, I would encourage developer beta people to file a radar, and for public beta people,

00:40:31   when the public betas come out later this month, to use the feedback thing, because

00:40:36   this seems like the kind of thing that they might actually tune over the summer.

00:40:39   I believe they will. If the behaviour is weird.

00:40:41   And this is... I seldom file radars because... just because.

00:40:46   But I do when something really bugs me and this is one that I will be.

00:40:50   When I install the beta on my iPad, I will file a radar for this one.

00:40:53   Because I think... I understand what they're trying to do,

00:40:56   but I think they just need to swap one of the gestures around

00:40:59   and I think it would be an overall better experience. But yeah.

00:41:03   Earlier filing bugs the better.

00:41:05   you know, if you get the bug reports in now,

00:41:07   there's, rather than doing it like a week before it ships,

00:41:11   at which point there is literally no chance of anything changing,

00:41:14   do it now.

00:41:15   Yeah, I'm wondering, how quick does Beta 2 come out?

00:41:18   Is it like a week or two weeks?

00:41:21   It depends.

00:41:22   If this is a solid build, which it sounds like,

00:41:25   it won't be as pressed to get something out quickly.

00:41:28   And it also depends how long this build has been sitting there,

00:41:32   'cause sometimes they sit for a while,

00:41:36   they know they've got something solid,

00:41:37   they don't wanna change it.

00:41:38   So this build could be, you know,

00:41:40   like two weeks old or something at this point.

00:41:43   And they just, you know, we've got something that works,

00:41:45   we'll put that out,

00:41:46   we'll not put out our absolute latest code.

00:41:50   - Also, they are going to do a public beta

00:41:51   probably by the end of the month.

00:41:53   And they want that to be,

00:41:55   generally what they do is they release a developer version

00:41:57   and then that becomes the public beta

00:41:59   after some period of time where they're sure that

00:42:02   from the developer release it hasn't destroyed people's devices. And so my

00:42:07   question is will this be the public beta? Probably not. It's possible though given

00:42:13   how the reviews are really good in terms of stability because otherwise

00:42:18   they're probably going to do another release and then see how that is and if

00:42:21   that's got problems they'll have to do another release and then the public beta

00:42:25   release will come from that and that may be too long because I think they want to

00:42:30   get to public beta by the end of June.

00:42:32   - Yeah, and this has got all the Memoji and stuff in it,

00:42:35   which is really gonna make people install the public beta

00:42:39   who might not normally install betas,

00:42:42   so they wanna get it right. - Yeah, I thought that.

00:42:44   I bet this is gonna be a thoroughly installed beta, right?

00:42:48   Like almost to the level of, oh, there's new emoji, right?

00:42:52   Like it kind of feels like that.

00:42:54   So yeah, I bet you're right.

00:42:55   I bet this gets pretty heavily installed

00:42:58   because this is one of those things

00:42:59   your friend sends you one and you're like, "Wait, what?" and then you go and install

00:43:03   the beta, right? Like, so yeah, I think you're right. They probably want to make sure that

00:43:07   this one is as solid as a rock. Mac OS, Jason, can you remind me? Mojave? Mojave? Mojave.

00:43:17   Mojave. Dark Mode. I played around with Dark Mode a little bit on, Stephen Hackett had

00:43:24   a Mojave installed on a drive. And I tried it out and I like it more than I thought I

00:43:32   would. When they were showing up for the demo, it just didn't work for me, but I like it

00:43:37   more in person and I wonder what you thought about dark mode.

00:43:41   Tim Cynova I'm looking forward to seeing it. I'm glad

00:43:45   that Apple finally has offered it. My complaint about the dark menu bar was that it felt like

00:43:50   like they wanted to do a dark mode and they just couldn't. And so they said, well, you

00:43:55   can make a dark menu bar. And I thought that was dumb. So now that there's a proper dark

00:43:59   mode, I'll try it out. I actually, I like the idea of having my system kick into dark

00:44:05   mode at night when my room is presumably darker and the bright white windows on my screen

00:44:14   are more prevalent, but also there's a question of how you want apps to support this, right?

00:44:20   Like right now I have a bunch of white background, black text windows up on my display, and if

00:44:27   I go into dark mode and none of them adapt, that's dumb.

00:44:32   - And that's one of the things is that developers will need to build with the latest SDK to

00:44:37   get dark mode is not going to automatically apply to old apps, presumably because developers

00:44:42   are going to find, "Oh, wait a minute, this text, I forgot to use a system color,"

00:44:47   so you're going to get black text on a black background or something.

00:44:50   Spam. How much blacker could it be? None.

00:44:51   Yeah, like we were playing around with iTunes and there were some Apple Music promos that

00:44:56   you couldn't read the text off, which was hilarious, because they were just basically

00:45:00   images in iTunes and all the text was black and the background was black.

00:45:06   And with Safari they made a really interesting decision to, like, you know, they need to

00:45:14   honor the CSS of a webpage, although I wonder, I haven't looked, I wonder if they're going

00:45:20   to propose a CSS extension, Safari extension, that actually says use these styles in dark

00:45:27   mode so that websites could potentially support dark mode. I wonder, I'm going to have to

00:45:32   about that. But what they did do is Safari Reader will kick into its dark theme if you're

00:45:40   in dark mode. So you load a page that's white, like six colors, white background, black text,

00:45:47   right? You load it in dark mode, it's like, "Ah, that's super bright." But if you hit

00:45:50   the Safari Reader button, it will go into dark reader mode. But I would love it if I

00:45:56   had the ability to say, "If you're running on a Mac with dark mode on, use this style

00:46:02   instead and make a dark mode version of my website. And similarly, like, if I'm in Google

00:46:07   Docs, which I am right now, I would really like it if in dark mode Google Docs actually

00:46:12   was white text on a black background or something like that instead of what it is now. And,

00:46:18   you know, again, that would be something that Apple would need to provide support for and

00:46:24   work with web developers on and it's going to be sporadic. So I'm enthusiastic about

00:46:28   it, but I'm also realistic that there's going to be a lot of stuff that doesn't really honor

00:46:31   it for a while, if ever, and that's just how it is.

00:46:35   But all those really old apps, they're going to kill anyway.

00:46:39   That's true. In the end, it won't matter. If you're an old app, you won't be around

00:46:44   much longer.

00:46:45   There are a couple of things on the horizon, right, which could kill old apps, including

00:46:49   that notarizing thing?

00:46:50   Yeah. Yeah, so the 32-bit apps will go away next year, and there's this idea of notarizing

00:46:57   which is a different concept with them. The old one, which was you sign your app

00:47:01   if you're not in the Mac App Store and you want to be a launchable in the

00:47:06   default state of the security settings in Mac OS. You are a registered Apple

00:47:12   developer and you sign your app release with your developer key. And what that

00:47:17   means is Apple, you know, you are somebody Apple knows and the system therefore

00:47:23   will let you launch your app even though it's outside of the Mac App Store. And

00:47:26   And that's good because it also means that if somebody releases malware, they can just

00:47:32   kill that developer key and push that out to everybody and then Max won't launch the

00:47:38   malware anymore.

00:47:39   They'll refuse.

00:47:40   Because this is similar to some of the stuff with Gatekeeper, right?

00:47:43   They've had for a while.

00:47:44   Yeah, this is, I mean, it is Gatekeeper.

00:47:46   It's just Gatekeeper is sort of changing and this is a transitional stage for Gatekeeper.

00:47:51   I think one of the things they talked about was when you upload your app, they're going

00:47:55   to scan it for malware and give it the sort of basic checks, but it's not going to...

00:48:00   I think it's going to be entirely automated.

00:48:01   Yeah, that's what they said. So this is the difference. They're going to transition away

00:48:06   from the signed apps thing. That's going to go away, I think, next year. Maybe they didn't

00:48:11   say, but it's going to go away. It's going to go away eventually. And what's going to

00:48:14   replace it is this notarized apps thing, which is per app, per app version. So instead of

00:48:22   your app not realizing it's got malware in it and then Apple kills your

00:48:26   developer account and all of your apps everywhere stop working, which is really

00:48:29   bad. Now the Apple will be able to kill a specific app, a specific app version, and

00:48:36   the way it works is you have to build your app as a developer, again, for

00:48:40   outside the Mac App Store, upload it to Apple's notary service and they will

00:48:44   scan it in an automated fashion and then kick it back with

00:48:49   basically a little ticket that is this is this has been scanned by Apple and by

00:48:55   default gatekeeper will not let you launch apps instead of them being like

00:48:59   signed they will be notarized and and and it will want to notarized app or it

00:49:03   will say I can't launch this now what they haven't said is that they said that

00:49:07   they'd like that process to be about an hour which is I was sitting next to a

00:49:12   developer who was like oh my god like like I don't want to wait an hour if I'm

00:49:16   just trying to push out a bug fix, but and that they were targeting an hour and

00:49:20   it's supposed to be automated but it's still going to take an hour which is

00:49:22   that's a lot of that's a lot of scanning going on there or something.

00:49:25   Trust me sometimes when you upload stuff and it's just processing through the app

00:49:30   store

00:49:30   depending what happens you know you can have a half hour there.

00:49:33   Yeah so there's the mysteries of Apple's infrastructure remain.

00:49:37   There are a lot of open questions about what Apple didn't say is what the

00:49:42   long-term plan is for Gatekeeper. I'm going to assume that in the long run

00:49:50   Gatekeeper will still allow you to change your setting to run anything, but

00:49:56   Apple could at any point say, "You know what? Unless it's been signed or

00:50:03   notarized or whatever, we're just not going to let it run." And that would be

00:50:07   Apple kind of clamping down on third-party software to a greater

00:50:11   degree. Also, and again I'm just trying to explore the limits of this thing, you

00:50:16   know, they could scan for things with that notary service that would be a

00:50:20   de facto rejection, like apps that do this will not be allowed on the Mac, and

00:50:25   if they did that combined with changing Gatekeeper, this is a worst-case

00:50:28   scenario, they basically set a, you know, approval process for all apps on the Mac,

00:50:35   even if they're not in the Mac App Store. Also, my understanding is at least

00:50:38   at least in this initial run of the notary service, that you've got to be, you've got

00:50:43   to opt into their new security runtime, and I think that means that you have to use their

00:50:49   entitlements, which means it's basically limited like a Mac App Store app. And if that's their

00:50:55   intent, that also means that apps, even though the Mac App Store is opening up what it's

00:51:02   allowing apps to do compared to the past, it does also mean that if you want to take

00:51:07   advantage of this sort of default security on the Mac, you've got to follow

00:51:11   more of the Mac App Store rules. So there's a lot going on here that is

00:51:16   going to make Mac apps more secure and Macs more secure, but there is a question

00:51:21   of just how heavy-handed versus light touch Apple is going to be with apps that

00:51:26   are outside the Mac App Store. One of the things I read implied that existing apps

00:51:31   will still get the, you know, if you want to access the camera and things like

00:51:35   that. So, you know, these things are going to affect people anyway, I think, from reading

00:51:43   some of the documentation this morning. But the other thing that just occurred to me there

00:51:47   was assuming Apple stores a copy of the app, if they discover some new malware a week after

00:51:54   you've been notarized, they could go back and say, "Wait a minute, we've just discovered

00:51:59   this," you know, rerun the scan.

00:52:02   And then they kill that.

00:52:03   And then that version is then killed.

00:52:04   - Yeah, yeah, so that's all good,

00:52:06   but it also, it becomes this question of like,

00:52:09   what is the future of Mac apps outside the Mac App Store?

00:52:13   And we'll just have to see.

00:52:15   I, you know, I think nobody's asked Apple these questions.

00:52:18   They haven't talked about a lot of the details of this.

00:52:21   It has, you will see, I'll guarantee it.

00:52:24   You will see stories about how this is the end

00:52:27   of free software on the Mac,

00:52:29   that everything's gonna be controlled by Apple.

00:52:31   That is certainly an extreme interpretation

00:52:34   of where it could go. I'm not convinced that's where it's going to go, but it could go there.

00:52:40   And you'll also see stories that will say, "It's great. It's not a problem. It's just

00:52:43   Apple improving the security of the platform." And I would say that's your kind of best case

00:52:47   scenario. So somewhere in there, we'll have to see, because it's going to be up to Apple,

00:52:52   its policies, how it's implemented, all of those things. But yeah, I'd like to believe

00:52:58   that at some level, Apple will allow people to do stuff that makes their... They're just

00:53:03   going to make it harder. They're going to say, "Yes, you can still disable system integrity

00:53:06   protection like you can now." And at that point, Apple's basically saying, "We will

00:53:10   not protect you from anything bad that happens." And some people, honestly, as long as some

00:53:16   people are...people will do that if they're allowed to. And if all Apple wants to do is

00:53:21   reduce the number of people who are doing that and keeping more people safe, that's

00:53:26   probably okay. But it's all going to be in the details, and we don't know the details

00:53:30   it, but it is really interesting. I wrote a little thing on Six Colors about this. The

00:53:38   big picture is Apple's trying to make it easier for apps to fit in the Mac App Store, which

00:53:43   is why we saw Transmit from Panic and BB Edit coming back to the Mac App Store. They're

00:53:48   making changes this year, and my understanding is kind of ongoing changes to add more entitlements,

00:53:56   which basically let an app say, "Hey, I want to read the whole hard drive. Can I do that?"

00:53:59   that used to be forbidden in the Mac App Store, and now it will be allowed, basically, if

00:54:05   you ask. And that allows Apple to say, "Should this app have that? Oh, this is transmit.

00:54:10   It makes sense for it to read outside the sandbox. We'll allow it." And previously,

00:54:15   that wasn't allowed. So they're expanding that part, but it also seems like they're

00:54:19   adding more restrictions on the stuff that's outside the Mac App Store, which is interesting,

00:54:24   like an interesting combination there. But you could argue they want to make the Mac

00:54:27   App Store more appealing, but they want to make the Mac as a whole platform more secure

00:54:33   while understanding that not everything can be in the Mac App Store.

00:54:36   I'm starting to get twitchy whenever I download an app. It's not signed, and I have to do

00:54:41   the little, you know, control click on it to open it, and it's like, "Are you sure you

00:54:45   want to open this?" And I go, "I'm really not sure. I don't know what's in this."

00:54:51   Well, because there's been a bunch of high-profile malware things over the last year, right?

00:54:56   And I guess that's why they're doing this.

00:54:58   That BitTorrent client was one of them.

00:55:00   Well, didn't Panic get hit by one as well?

00:55:03   Panic, I think, opened some app and then somebody got into their GitHub sources or something

00:55:10   like that.

00:55:11   Right.

00:55:12   So the result of one of those apps.

00:55:13   But yeah, it seemed like this has been happening a lot more anyway.

00:55:16   And the cryptographic signature stuff, it's not just, we want an unsigned app to be dangerous,

00:55:25   But it's also like, if you sign an app, what it means is that that app can't be modified

00:55:30   later to have malware inserted because then the signature fails.

00:55:33   And they're also changing stuff now that if some library your app loads is unsigned, then

00:55:41   you won't run and things like that.

00:55:43   Right, right.

00:55:44   Like the little pieces, the plugins and other things, if they aren't from you or Apple,

00:55:50   they say, "Well, wait a second.

00:55:52   Where did that come from?"

00:55:53   And apparently there's a way for you to say, "Oh no, no, no, it's from this developer

00:55:57   and they're a friend," but that requires that developer to sign it and for you to affirm

00:56:01   it, and they're adding a whole bunch of stuff like this.

00:56:04   So I mean, this is a story that could be about Apple exerting a lot of control over the Mac

00:56:10   in ways that will make it unpleasant for third-party developers, but the other way to portray it

00:56:15   is I think also valid, which is Apple's trying to find ways to, how do we bring, if you're

00:56:20   how do we bring security models that we understand that we've learned from the

00:56:27   being on the inside of the App Store, how would we apply those to an open market?

00:56:33   And on iOS they don't have an open market, but on the Mac they do, and so

00:56:37   they're trying to do that, and it's an interesting idea. And I think the

00:56:41   BitTorrent client transmission, as distinct from transmit, that one got bit

00:56:46   multiple times where things were being inserted. But I believe that was

00:56:49   signed. So, you know, it's not just, you know, "Oh, this was signed by the developer, so it must be

00:56:55   okay." It's like, well, maybe not if, you know, if somebody got into their machine.

00:56:59   Yeah, they got their key and then they signed the malware version. I think they inserted it

00:57:04   when it was being built, right?

00:57:05   Yeah. And there was also the Xcode a while back. There was a malware version of Xcode that inserted

00:57:14   malware into the things.

00:57:15   Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. That was on Chinese servers because there was somebody... Because you... Why

00:57:19   why would you download Xcode from anywhere but Apple?

00:57:21   But the answer was it was hard to download in China,

00:57:24   I think, from Apple and it was slow.

00:57:27   And so somebody had like a local version of Xcode

00:57:30   that you could download to save yourself time.

00:57:32   And it was a faster download.

00:57:34   And it was a hacked version of Xcode

00:57:36   with malware inserts in it.

00:57:38   What a world.

00:57:40   - So there's more than enough good reason

00:57:42   for Apple to do this.

00:57:43   But of course the ramifications are wide reaching.

00:57:47   But as long as an app is in even somewhat active development, this, in theory, shouldn't

00:57:55   be too hard unless you're doing something that would be tricky.

00:57:57   So...

00:57:58   Depends on how strict they want to be.

00:58:00   If they want to be really strict, then it could be a thing.

00:58:02   I think the most interesting thing to me is that rather than make App Store policy changes,

00:58:06   they seem to have made sandboxing changes.

00:58:08   They mean...

00:58:09   Right?

00:58:10   Instead of just saying, "You know what?

00:58:11   If you want to do stuff that's outside the sandbox, fine."

00:58:14   They didn't do that.

00:58:15   built new security measures that let apps ask for more power. And I think they're going

00:58:23   to continue doing that. And that is a policy change of a sort, but it's a high level. It's

00:58:28   somebody like Phil Schiller saying, "How do we make these Mac apps that are for power

00:58:33   users more powerful and get them in the Mac App Store?" And somebody in the security team

00:58:37   saying, "Well, we would need to build in these new intents, these new requests for the ability

00:58:44   to get outside and then we would need to look at those. We need to build a security system

00:58:49   around that. And it seems like that's what they've been doing and the first parts of

00:58:53   that will roll out in Mojave.

00:58:55   After this break, we should ask James about some of the stuff that he is excited about

00:59:00   as a developer. But first, let me thank Casper for their support of this show. Casper, the

00:59:06   company focused on sleep, dedicated to making you exceptionally comfortable one night at

00:59:11   a time. You spend a lot of your life sleeping, actually a third. So if you spend a third

00:59:15   of your life doing that, don't you want it to be the best it could possibly be? That's

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00:59:59   has a hassle free return policy.

01:00:00   Now Jason, I know that you spent a few days in a hotel bed last week.

01:00:04   When you return home, do you run to the bedroom and hug your Casper immediately?

01:00:09   first of all, it's very large. It's a queen size mattress. So that would hugging it would

01:00:12   be.

01:00:13   You could just hug the corner.

01:00:14   I did. I did enjoy sitting down on it and thinking, Oh, yes, this is the I'm home again.

01:00:20   In fact, I drove. I didn't even stay every every night down there. I came back on Wednesday

01:00:26   night so I could sleep in at home, which is it's nice to be home and all that and part

01:00:31   of that is yes, the Casper mattress, my family, the pets, my Casper mattress, probably in

01:00:38   that

01:00:51   Mattress Burchases. Thank you so much to Casper for their support of this show and Relay FM.

01:00:58   So Mr James Thompson, you are a developer. I would say you do develop for the Mac but

01:01:04   primarily iOS I would say is probably, would I be right in saying that these days? That

01:01:09   peak alc?

01:01:10   I think that's fair to say where most of my money comes from so that is equally where

01:01:14   a lot of my focus goes.

01:01:16   So I want to talk about a few things. I think I'll split this in half between iOS and the

01:01:21   Mac because funnily enough they're becoming the same thing eventually.

01:01:25   Spoilers.

01:01:28   Siri shortcuts. You are well known for implementing just about any new thing that Apple will debut.

01:01:37   Where do you see Siri shortcuts to making a difference in Peacock?

01:01:41   So I've been looking at doing, looking at thinking about doing workflow stuff for a

01:01:47   long time and it was always just there on the to-do list it was like I'd really

01:01:52   like to get to that, I'd really like to get to that and now we have shortcuts which is

01:01:57   part of the system and seems to be the way that Apple is going to expose a lot

01:02:02   of Siri functionality to developers and things like this. It's like this has gone

01:02:07   from you know on page two of the list of things I would look at to line one of

01:02:14   what I want to look at. Oh interesting okay. So and I think that's going to be

01:02:18   absolutely the case for lots of developers it's like oh here is the new

01:02:23   big Apple thing that we need to look at over the summer and I don't know yet

01:02:29   what that's gonna be I mean the example that somebody gave to me as I am known

01:02:34   somewhat for the about screen of pcalc was ahoy telephone it's banana time but

01:02:42   I don't know yet where the things would be because it seems to be the API is mainly for like repeating something that you've done before in the past.

01:02:52   So, you know, the kind of things that you would use the 3D touch shortcuts on an icon, like, you know, you can go somewhere, but there's not really a way of inputting information.

01:03:07   So you can't say, you know, what is six times seven or something like that.

01:03:12   You can't pass in arbitrary inputs.

01:03:14   You can only say, here is a prerecorded phrase and I'm going to associate that with something in the app.

01:03:22   And that might be, you know, for something, it might be, you know, let's play this particular

01:03:27   playlist or let's repeat this order we did before.

01:03:31   But there isn't yet the sort of what you would want to pass parameters into that.

01:03:36   So there is a certain amount of limitation to it, I think,

01:03:41   although it does look like this is gonna be the way forward

01:03:45   that Apple is gonna do this stuff.

01:03:46   - I wonder if the conception of the way these things

01:03:49   can be implemented will change once people get a hold

01:03:52   of the Shortcuts app, because if the Shortcuts app

01:03:55   is anything like Workflow, the ability to pass things

01:03:57   in and out is key.

01:04:00   And from everything that we've seen so far,

01:04:03   it seems like the shortcuts basically is workflow.

01:04:07   So, you know, I understand what the APIs look like right now,

01:04:10   but I wonder if there is, it will be different

01:04:14   once you can actually change some Peacock actions

01:04:16   through the Shortcuts app.

01:04:18   - I'm assuming that Shortcuts is gonna support

01:04:22   the old sort of workflow URL callback stuff as well.

01:04:25   But none of that makes it into the Apple documentation

01:04:30   on this stuff.

01:04:32   I think that's just a legacy thing.

01:04:34   So, you know, the APIs are very specific

01:04:39   and you know, here are the things that you can do.

01:04:41   And here's how you associate a shortcut,

01:04:45   you know, like a Siri phrase to trigger this.

01:04:49   I think you're right.

01:04:51   I think it will open up.

01:04:52   The question I would say is whether it opens up

01:04:55   before this ships.

01:04:56   I think it won't.

01:04:58   I think it will stay.

01:04:59   We'll get what we've got.

01:05:00   and then next year we'll get more.

01:05:02   But I'm looking, I wanna really dig into it

01:05:07   and see what's possible and figure out,

01:05:09   I mean like there was one thing.

01:05:12   So you know that you get the little response sheets

01:05:14   that you can do in line when you're talking to Siri.

01:05:19   Bring one of those up and I was like,

01:05:21   oh, I wonder if they could be interactive.

01:05:23   And I was thinking, you know,

01:05:24   oh, bring up an inline little something,

01:05:29   you know, throw a tip calculator or something in there,

01:05:32   and it's like, no, these things are non-interactive,

01:05:35   you can have a few buttons at the bottom,

01:05:37   but it's very much designed for,

01:05:39   this is displaying information, it's not for,

01:05:42   even, you know, having like a checkbox

01:05:45   that you could check on it before you say go ahead

01:05:47   or whatever, it's not that. - So they tried to prevent you

01:05:49   from causing them a bunch of problems

01:05:52   around September again, didn't they?

01:05:53   They thought about that very specifically.

01:05:56   - Yes, I think I'm number one on the list,

01:05:58   definitely stop James putting a calculator in this. But yeah, I think for pcalc specifically,

01:06:09   I'm not sure where the hooks are going to go. Like what's going to be the best thing

01:06:13   to do.

01:06:14   It may be for you it is very simple actions, right? Like open, you know, like open pcalc,

01:06:19   right? Or something like that, you know? Like, because there are, so for example, I'll give

01:06:24   you some things that I've been thinking about, like having different work modes that I get

01:06:30   into, you know, and one of them might result in a few actions being performed and then

01:06:35   p-count being opened, right? Like, because, right, I'm in this mode now so I need my calculator.

01:06:40   But there are things that other apps might do which would be a little bit, you know,

01:06:44   so for example like they show, as part of a result of an action, start playing some

01:06:52   some audio.

01:06:54   You could do something like grab the current result out of Peacock, take that, put that

01:06:59   in a Google spreadsheet somewhere or vice versa, that sort of thing.

01:07:02   And that's very, I think that is very useful and that's where, you know, like stuff like

01:07:07   that like grabbing a result, that's probably going to make the most sense when the four

01:07:11   shortcuts app is there, right?

01:07:12   So you can see how you could chain a bunch of stuff together.

01:07:15   I see what you mean though, like for the uses that might be best for Peacock specifically,

01:07:22   performing calculations, that may not be something that is around in its first iteration.

01:07:28   Yeah, but I mean it looks very very promising and the fact I think that it's the, you know,

01:07:35   first-party citizen of the OS now is going to make, I would assume, make every developer

01:07:42   look at this over the summer. And I think that's, it's just like raising Workflow's profile to,

01:07:49   You know, like if you implement this, Apple might feature you on the store.

01:07:53   So you should really probably do.

01:07:55   Yeah, if you want that iOS launch feature, you should probably be implementing

01:08:00   shortcuts because they're going to have a whole section of apps with shortcuts.

01:08:04   You know, like that's probably going to be the big thing this year,

01:08:07   like they did ARKit last year.

01:08:10   Hence why you created an AR mode in your calculator.

01:08:13   So with ARKit 2.0.

01:08:15   What is exciting to you?

01:08:19   Ah, that's the- I mean, like, I- I am- I write a calculator.

01:08:23   I should write a calculator.

01:08:25   But there is this part of me that looks at all that stuff and is like,

01:08:28   "I could write a game. A real game. I could spend the summer writing a game."

01:08:33   And then it's like, "No, no, I shouldn't do this."

01:08:37   But the multiplayer stuff, I mean, it was-

01:08:41   Like, there was at least sort of five players involved, like,

01:08:44   so they had this AR game that you could play at the conference,

01:08:48   which was the one that they showed in the keynote, where you're just, you know, firing blocks at people and trying to knock over their little catapults.

01:08:57   But it was, they had, like, you could play four player around the table, and then there was a fifth person who was like an Apple employee who was acting as a camera operator who was like, displaying another view onto the big screen behind you.

01:09:14   And it's like, so, you know, you could, I don't know what the limits are, but

01:09:18   presumably you could have lots of players.

01:09:20   Um, they also, the source code to that whole thing, the open sourcing it and

01:09:25   making it available to developers to do whatever they like with, and there's going

01:09:29   to be ton of stuff in that that is interesting on how to sort of synchronize

01:09:33   the state between all the different, uh, devices that are taking part in that.

01:09:38   And that's something I'd love to play with.

01:09:40   Uh, you know,

01:09:43   I do want to do the Peacock Battle Royale mode.

01:09:48   - Oh my God, no.

01:09:51   More of a banana royale.

01:09:53   - Oh boy.

01:09:56   - Banana royale with cheese.

01:09:57   - Yes, no, that sounds horrible.

01:10:00   - Disgusting.

01:10:01   - And there's stuff in that, there's also the,

01:10:03   they'll do the thing where you can pre-scan a 3D object

01:10:07   and then your app can recognize that,

01:10:10   like it does today with,

01:10:12   You can do an AR kit with images,

01:10:14   you can have like a poster on the wall, that kind of stuff,

01:10:16   but you could have a 3D object,

01:10:18   let's say it was a banana,

01:10:19   that you scan in and then when the thing sees

01:10:22   that 3D object, it can attach, you know,

01:10:25   sort of content around that,

01:10:26   like they did with the Lego building.

01:10:30   I mean, there was lots of things,

01:10:34   and there was also this idea of sharing the sort of,

01:10:38   the scans that have been done over 3D space,

01:10:41   So when somebody else goes there, it can recognize it.

01:10:44   And you can, you know, you would,

01:10:47   it's not as instant as, you know,

01:10:48   you can leave something on a table

01:10:50   and then somebody else will find it.

01:10:51   You know, you'd have to actually do this within your app.

01:10:55   But there's a lot of potential

01:10:59   and they're clearly ramping up on the AR things.

01:11:03   It seemed like there was,

01:11:07   it seems like there's more focus on ARKit

01:11:11   than there should be, if you see what I mean.

01:11:13   - Yes, suspicious in a way. - Then its current importance

01:11:16   to the operating system, right, and to devices, yeah.

01:11:19   - It's almost as if there might be something in future.

01:11:23   There was a nice job listing I saw on the Apple Store

01:11:26   and it was for somebody doing sort of UI kit style frameworks

01:11:31   for VR and AR, for having your buttons and your controls

01:11:37   and whatever within that 3D space.

01:11:40   And I'm thinking, hmm, that sounds like it would be useful

01:11:44   if you had, say, some kind of glasses. Hmm. But.

01:11:48   So I'm going to keep playing with the with the stuff, you know,

01:11:53   evenings and weekends, we shall say.

01:11:56   Yeah, sure.

01:11:59   I think, you know, another thing for me is very telling

01:12:05   who who they sent to the talk show this year.

01:12:08   And it was the head of AR, right?

01:12:10   And I found that that conversation, I found it really fascinating.

01:12:14   I want to get the head of AR and VR.

01:12:17   Don't forget. AR and VR.

01:12:20   And VR. Myke Rockwell was the gentleman's name.

01:12:23   And I really enjoyed hearing him speak.

01:12:26   He seemed like obviously he really knows what he's doing.

01:12:29   And I really much enjoyed that.

01:12:31   We went to it live.

01:12:33   But I think that that's very telling that they want.

01:12:35   I think Apple clearly want to get Myke Rockwell's name known and his face known and his voice

01:12:40   known. So that would tell me that we may see him on stage soon because he will be demoing

01:12:47   the glasses at some point. And then he even landed with a fantastic kind of pseudo slip

01:12:53   up from Greg Joswiak where he was kind of like "oh in the years to come we may see

01:12:59   see a new form factor for AR. That made me smile because I'm not sure he would have said

01:13:05   that if maybe he'd spent an extra second thinking about it but I don't know. What about Project

01:13:11   Sneak Peek? This is the idea of Marzipan. You mean Project Marzipek? This is going to

01:13:21   get too confusing if we continue going down this level of naming. You currently maintain

01:13:27   both iOS and Mac versions of Pcalc. Do you think that you would likely stop working on

01:13:34   the AppKit version once this has become a thing next year?

01:13:38   So I think the devil is in the details on all this stuff. So the current version of

01:13:44   the Mac app is actually a port of the iOS app already. So what I did was I threw away

01:13:50   the old Mac app and I took the iOS code and I ported it over to the Mac and then I wrote

01:13:56   Mac stuff around the edges of it, you know, for sort of Windows menus and all that stuff.

01:14:02   And going into the the marzipan stuff, I was thinking that that might be the way that they

01:14:08   would do it, so that you could have, you know, you would use some UI kit, and then you might

01:14:14   have some app kit stuff for doing the the Mac specific bits. And currently, it doesn't

01:14:20   sound like that might be the case. I think Steve Stroudon Smith was poking around at

01:14:24   things and he was saying if you try and mix in some AppKit things go badly wrong.

01:14:30   That might be where they want to be in, you know, 15 months or whatever, but I don't think they're

01:14:37   there yet. So I would like to do it. I would like to have most of the source shared. Like,

01:14:45   one thing I did on the iOS version after that I ported it was I added the layout editing and I

01:14:53   I thought I'd like to do the layout editing on the Mac, but I'm going to have to rewrite a lot of this code to do it.

01:14:59   And so it hasn't happened yet.

01:15:00   So if I could just instantly take the code, put it on the Mac, there you go.

01:15:04   And there are other things that the iOS version does better.

01:15:08   Like it's better at handling resizing.

01:15:11   So you could do the sort of full screen, split screen stuff on the Mac and you just get that, I get that for free.

01:15:19   But if it would effectively have to dumb down certain things or make them un-Mac-like or,

01:15:26   you know, like could I have a preferences dialogue or would I have to have it old,

01:15:33   sort of UI kit style controls within the app, things like that.

01:15:38   I think it's wait and see. I would love to do it. It would make my my job a lot easier.

01:15:48   And the thing that I was thinking about was, you know, the Mac is not necessarily defined by what framework an app is written in.

01:15:56   We had Carbon and Cocoa apps. You know, they both lived side by side.

01:16:01   Everything was different under the hood, but you could build a nice Mac app with both.

01:16:06   If you can build a nice Mac app using this stuff, then I see no reason not to use it.

01:16:13   What that says for the future of AppKit, that's a good question.

01:16:17   Does it make you want to pursue any more ideas for Mac apps?

01:16:21   If I'm assuming these days you're probably more well-versed than you like it?

01:16:26   Um...

01:16:28   So I think it complicates things.

01:16:31   So what it means is right now, because this is a year away from us getting actual details,

01:16:37   do I want to do any more real Mac-specific code on the Mac version?

01:16:43   Probably not. If that code might be thrown away in a year's time.

01:16:49   Likewise, do I want to look at something like drag_thing again? Do I revive that?

01:16:57   And if I did that, it's going to probably make more sense still doing that in AppKit,

01:17:02   because the UIKit stuff is not going to have any of the support for the system-wide things that I want to do.

01:17:09   It complicates things.

01:17:13   I think it's not clear yet where this is gonna go

01:17:17   and how much focus is gonna be on this.

01:17:20   I mean, Apple is using it,

01:17:21   they have brought over these apps,

01:17:24   you know, the notes, stocks, and voice recorder and all that.

01:17:29   And I think we'll, I haven't really played with them

01:17:34   to see how much they feel like Mac apps

01:17:38   or if they just feel like this is a quick and dirty port

01:17:42   of an iOS app, because I don't think the typical Mac audience

01:17:47   that's what they're looking for.

01:17:48   And if the Mac App Store just becomes flooded

01:17:53   with like every person who does an iOS app

01:17:56   just hits a button, makes a Mac app,

01:18:00   uploads it to the Mac App Store,

01:18:01   I don't see that as being good.

01:18:05   - Well, it's better than the current state

01:18:07   the Mac App Store, I think.

01:18:08   Well, I think this is one of the big questions is, what is the volume into the Mac App Store

01:18:16   from iOS next year? Because I've seen people who are very enthusiastic and have said there'll

01:18:23   be a flood. And I've also heard people say, "There won't be very many. It won't really

01:18:27   move the needle. It's not going to make a big difference because most developers are

01:18:31   not going to bother or they're going to already have a solution that they built using something

01:18:36   like Electron that gives them Mac and Windows and then they can forget about

01:18:39   it and I'd like to think that it's going to be somewhere in between those two

01:18:43   extremes but I do think there is a scenario where Apple rolls this out and

01:18:47   it's a very small number of developers who really take advantage of it but it

01:18:51   might that might be enough to make the Mac a richer place a richer environment

01:18:55   to be a user but still it may not be you know everybody in the Mac apps or the

01:19:01   iOS app store is just can't wait to be a Mac. One of the interesting comments

01:19:05   when they were talking about this, they said,

01:19:08   for iOS developers, this could be a way to get extra revenue

01:19:13   by putting it on the Mac App Store.

01:19:17   And that was interesting because that suggested to me

01:19:20   that they were not looking at,

01:19:23   while you buy this once on iOS

01:19:25   and then you also automatically own it on Mac.

01:19:27   - Right.

01:19:29   - That might be something that they're wanting to do

01:19:31   future. But that was interesting. Or they were just thinking of, "Well, it's going to be on

01:19:37   another platform, so maybe you get more of your magic coins that you're selling to gullible people

01:19:43   in video games." Well, I do think that's a good question. In the long run, if they have a unified

01:19:51   app platform, would they not have a unified app store where, just as if you're on an iPad and you

01:19:56   you search, you see iPad apps by default, that you would eventually see Mac apps, and

01:20:03   at the very least this idea, they could make it so that if you buy that app and it's available

01:20:07   on all the platforms, you just get it on all the platforms. And that's not where they are

01:20:10   now, but it is possible in the future.

01:20:13   So there was an—always when I watch the keynotes, there's that—you're in the reality distortion

01:20:19   field and then you get outside and you start thinking about it for a while and you're like,

01:20:24   "Oh, wait a minute, they didn't mention this at all."

01:20:27   And yeah, one of the things was,

01:20:29   I was expecting some kind of app store

01:20:32   where I could go on to the, you know,

01:20:35   I would click a link, it would take me to a web page,

01:20:37   I'd see a preview of the app, I could buy it,

01:20:39   I click Apple Pay, boom, it appears on all the devices,

01:20:43   it'll go on, and things like that.

01:20:44   And there was, while we had some redesigned app store stuff,

01:20:48   there was no movement on anything like that, right?

01:20:52   And so we didn't, yeah, that, that, that's a concern because, you know, if the, if the

01:20:59   move, I mean, we sell the Mac version separately and just this morning I had

01:21:03   somebody saying, why, I just bought this on my, on my iPhone.

01:21:07   Why can't I run it on my Mac?

01:21:08   And it's like, well, you know, right now there's a lot of extra work I do to make

01:21:14   a Mac version and I think that justifies, you know, that it is a separate product.

01:21:19   But if it's literally just a one click and it produces a Mac version, I could see people being,

01:21:26   you know, reasonably annoyed that they have to pay again for it. So, yeah, we'll see.

01:21:31   All right, should we move into some hashtag ask upgrade?

01:21:34   Let's do it.

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01:23:04   show and Relay FM.

01:23:07   So our first #AskUpgrade question, thank you very much, comes from Charlie.

01:23:13   This week Charlie says, "I want to buy AirPods as a gift for someone who needs new headphones.

01:23:18   Should I wait for potentially an AirPods 2 or do you think that could be coming maybe

01:23:22   not even this year at all?

01:23:24   The only things that matter to this person is longer talk time, which in theory AirPods

01:23:28   2 would get."

01:23:29   What do you think, Jason?

01:23:30   I would not wait.

01:23:32   I don't know when we'll see a new set of AirPods.

01:23:34   could be this fall, but it will be two years. At the same time, AirPods are pretty great.

01:23:41   Is Apple feeling pressure? And it is a very difficult thing to engineer. So there could

01:23:46   be AirPods 2 this fall. I think AirPods are great as it is, so I wouldn't wait, even though

01:23:51   they're—there's always going to be something new, but I think that this is a product that

01:23:54   does not feel old in any way, and that Apple could absolutely get away with not updating

01:23:59   them for another year. And so maybe they will and maybe they won't. But, you know, I don't

01:24:06   know. I mean, yes, there will always be a better version in the future but at some point

01:24:09   you just got to buy the product that you want. And of all these Apple products that are hanging

01:24:14   out there that there might be a new version between now and the end of the year, AirPods

01:24:18   is not one that I would wait for a new version for. I mean, they're struggling to ship, you

01:24:23   know, that AirPower mat and the charger for the original AirPods and all of that. Are

01:24:27   they really going to do a new AirPods this fall? They could, but I wouldn't wait. They're

01:24:32   good as it is. I don't feel like whatever they would introduce this fall would be so

01:24:38   dramatically different that you'd be kicking yourself.

01:24:41   David: I'd also say that if the main thing is longer talk time, the Beats X and the Power

01:24:48   Beats, they have varying levels of extra battery power.

01:24:51   Right, true, helpful.

01:24:53   That's a really good point.

01:24:54   #AskJames.

01:24:55   #AskJames.

01:24:57   Has a lot of the same technology inside of those two,

01:24:58   so could be worth looking at.

01:25:01   Azure has asked, "Why is Apple moving so slowly

01:25:03   on iPad productivity?

01:25:04   I spent a school year using it as my teacher laptop,

01:25:07   but there were no changes, not even low-hanging fruit,

01:25:10   like viewing two docs or two sheets in those applications."

01:25:12   So like two Google Docs and two Google Sheets side by side.

01:25:15   "I love my iPad for consumption,

01:25:16   but basic tasks can still be difficult."

01:25:18   So I want to jump in with this one first.

01:25:21   I understand where Andrew is coming from.

01:25:24   I do disagree with some of the points made,

01:25:26   because I don't find it difficult for Tasks,

01:25:30   'cause I do the majority of my work on the iPad,

01:25:32   but I understand the point being made.

01:25:35   Apple did not have a lot of changes this year,

01:25:38   but I wasn't expecting them.

01:25:40   I think that the rumors definitely said that way,

01:25:42   and even when they announced everything

01:25:44   they announced in iOS 11,

01:25:45   I wasn't expecting big changes in iOS 12.

01:25:48   I think we're going to see a lot of that stuff in iOS 13, if it's going to be called that.

01:25:53   I really want them to get rid of those numbers at some point though.

01:25:56   It's getting difficult to keep track of now.

01:25:59   I keep pulling iOS 12, iOS 11, thinking that that's the new one.

01:26:04   But I think that stuff like Siri shortcuts is really going to help with people using

01:26:12   their devices in a productive nature.

01:26:15   And so that will be a change.

01:26:17   Yes, of course they have not advanced the iOS on the iPad to have more to take advantage

01:26:24   than they did in iOS 11, but I think they will.

01:26:27   And I think in the meantime, this is going to be better for iPad productivity than iOS

01:26:32   10 was, which had basically nothing from iOS 9 to iOS 10.

01:26:37   So I think we'll wait and see.

01:26:39   Yes, there are lots of things that could be better and I think they will get better, but

01:26:42   I think iOS 11 hasn't aged as fast as iOS 9 did.

01:26:46   Yeah, I agree that it's easy to look at this and say, "Oh, no iPad features." And like,

01:26:53   the fact is, a lot of these features are great iPad features. They're just not iPad-specific

01:26:57   features, but they will help anybody who's using an iPad. I do think, and the rumors

01:27:03   back this up, right, the reports from people like Mark Gurman, that Apple did take a bunch

01:27:07   of things that they had on the agenda for this version and toss them out. And seeing

01:27:11   what they announced, I can actually see how they could get away with it. Like, let's focus

01:27:15   on these and having them be really good. Yes, I would love that feature that lets an app

01:27:22   fairly easily put up a second version of itself, essentially a second window. I would love

01:27:28   to see that. The one that we talked about last week came up in several conversations

01:27:32   I had is it seems like the biggest pain for any of us who are using Splitview is you can't

01:27:39   tell where focus is, you can't tell which app is basically frontmost. During the keynote,

01:27:43   I was trying to type something in my Twitter app, and I could not get it to go in the Twitter

01:27:47   app. It just kept going in my notes instead. And, you know, it's like, if I tap here, can

01:27:53   I type a keyboard shortcut? No. It's just infuriating. And it's going to be another

01:27:58   year, and that's too bad. But there is a lot of things, you know, there's a lot of iPad

01:28:04   productivity stuff that's in there now that will be okay. But I agree. I'm frustrated,

01:28:10   at the same time, I feel like iOS 12 does have a lot of benefits. I do wish they were

01:28:15   tinkering with it every year. I think this is one of the victims of that, you know, sort

01:28:20   of let's take it slow and not try to push everything into a release so that we have,

01:28:25   you know, security and stability. And, you know, I'm sad because I don't like iPad features

01:28:31   rolling out every other year, but I'm okay with it.

01:28:33   I think it's also possible that we might get some updates as the year goes on because it

01:28:40   some things might take 18 months or they might take, you know...

01:28:44   - That's always the dream. There was a rumor at one point they were rumored to be rolling

01:28:48   iPad features in mid-year and then they ended up holding them for iOS 11. There was thought

01:28:54   that there might be a 10.5 basically that had iPad features. Also, we all expect there

01:28:59   to be new iPads this fall and so it's not impossible that there would be some iPad features

01:29:04   that would be rolled out with new iPads. I do think something like sharing two Windows

01:29:09   and more easily putting two Windows in an app is something that if we were going to

01:29:14   see it this year, we would see it at WWDC because developers would have to support that.

01:29:19   And since we didn't see it, I think that's not going to happen. But it is possible they'll

01:29:23   tinker with some things either when the iPads come out or later on in the year. I would

01:29:28   love to see Apple add more substantive features throughout the year instead. Because then

01:29:34   if you take your time with something and it's not ready, it's not a year that you have to wait.

01:29:38   I mean we got the ARKit 1.5 which was, you know, some significant new features and it was delivered

01:29:45   just in an update. It's not impossible. Now you're getting my hopes up James, I hadn't thought of that.

01:29:52   That's what I'm here for. Thank you. John has asked, "Is it possible to control an Airplay 2

01:29:58   compatible Sonos in conjunction with a HomePod? Like having one HomePod in the main living space,

01:30:04   then having outfitting the rest of your house with connected Sonos speakers that support AirPlay 2?

01:30:08   Well we don't know right like no the Sonos stuff hasn't been updated for AirPlay 2 yet right

01:30:14   I think that's forthcoming yes coming soon so only Sonos knows for sure I'm going to imagine yes

01:30:21   because I think all AirPlay 2 devices are on the network registered as AirPlay 2 devices with names

01:30:30   And so you should be able to, I know for an iOS device,

01:30:35   if you played a two AirPlay speakers

01:30:37   and one of them would be a Sonos

01:30:38   and one of them would be a HomePod, it should just work.

01:30:41   Like that, there are two AirPlay 2 devices.

01:30:45   So I'm gonna assume actually that this is true,

01:30:47   that this is part of what AirPlay 2 does,

01:30:49   but until we, you know, maybe Sonos knows

01:30:53   because they're working on this.

01:30:55   - I would sure hope that Sonos knew.

01:30:57   (laughing)

01:30:59   I would like to think they tested this at some point.

01:31:01   - Well, either they know or nobody knows.

01:31:03   - Nobody knows.

01:31:04   - But I'm optimistic about that.

01:31:06   - Mark wants to know, was the Apple Podcast Studio

01:31:09   back at WWDC this year?

01:31:12   - Oh boy, was it ever.

01:31:14   It was back and better than ever with a giant.

01:31:17   So inside one of the rooms at the convention center,

01:31:21   there was a podcast studio.

01:31:22   And this year the people from Apple Podcasts

01:31:24   put it together and they had a giant.

01:31:28   Last year they did it, but this year they did it

01:31:29   with this giant styrofoam kind of cube of a studio

01:31:32   that was meant to be sound deadening

01:31:35   and it had like the Apple podcast logo

01:31:37   like carved into the styrofoam and stuff.

01:31:40   And I'm serious, it was basically polystyrene walls

01:31:44   that were like 10 feet high wrapping around the studio.

01:31:48   And they had a couple of people working console with Logic

01:31:51   and they're recording, they had four Shure SM7B microphones,

01:31:56   the microphone I use every day.

01:31:57   So I was at home when I was in there.

01:31:59   And I believe Relay recorded at least two podcasts

01:32:04   in that studio, Myke.

01:32:05   - Yep, there was a B-Sides,

01:32:08   which is gonna be in our show notes, which was really fun.

01:32:11   It was Casey, Liz, and underscore David Smith.

01:32:14   And they were talking about the fact that David

01:32:16   was the podcast photographer of the week.

01:32:20   He photographed ATP Live and the Relay FM live shows.

01:32:23   So he was talking about what that was like.

01:32:25   and in the show notes for that episode is a photo of Casey and Underscore in the studio so you can

01:32:30   see the Apple podcast logo carved into the Polis diarine that was surrounding and also there is a

01:32:38   show that is specifically just for relay FM members so if you are a relay FM member there

01:32:42   is a special show that you get once a month and Jason Snell took the reins with Federico and Casey

01:32:47   and they had a really really good discussion about some of the ramifications of WWDC stuff

01:32:53   And I really liked it because it was three people who are not typically on shows together,

01:32:58   and it was really nice to hear the three of you talking because I listened to that today

01:33:02   and really, really enjoyed it. So if you are a Relay FM member, you can get that.

01:33:05   - The number of times I've been on a podcast with Federico is almost zero, and Casey,

01:33:11   pretty close to that. I did that special analog and all, you know, and he's been on a couple

01:33:17   incomparables but not a lot so I did like an episode of the TV podcast about Mr. Robot

01:33:24   where I talked to Steven in Federico. I think that might have been the last time I was on

01:33:27   a podcast in Federico.

01:33:28   We should fix that. We should get Federico on an episode of Upgrade soon, shouldn't we,

01:33:32   Jason?

01:33:33   Yeah, we should. That is a good idea. Perhaps it would be fun. Some are fun. I will also

01:33:40   mention that Six Colors members get a podcast every week-ish with me and Dan and we talk

01:33:46   about stuff and it's good people like it a lot they do it's really good but where did you

01:33:50   very different we recorded that in the podcast studio that was on a concrete bench outside the

01:34:00   hammer theater one while drinking our tea one morning um and that is i released that it's

01:34:06   posted on the six colors website um so you can just listen to the mp3 of that even if you're not

01:34:11   a member um but if you like hearing from me and dan you can become a member and then subscribe

01:34:16   to the podcast and get it every week-ish. And that one is, it was two microphones and

01:34:22   we were outside in person, so I mixed it. It's sort of like slightly stereo and you

01:34:26   can hear birds chirping in the background, although the reviews are that it sounds pretty

01:34:30   good for a podcast recorded outside. If you have the right microphones, outside podcasts

01:34:34   sound pretty good. In fact, I believe Under the Radar last week was also released.

01:34:37   Paul

01:34:43   and just saw a podcast occurring, which was kind of fun.

01:34:47   - Yeah, well this is what happened.

01:34:49   There's a photo on Twitter that somebody was walking by

01:34:52   and didn't bother us, but realized that we were recording

01:34:54   a podcast, 'cause it's two guys sitting there

01:34:56   with microphones, and he knew who we were

01:34:58   and took a picture of it.

01:34:59   So there is a secret picture of the secret podcast

01:35:02   being recorded by me and Dan.

01:35:05   But yeah, it's fun.

01:35:06   So yes, Adventures in Live podcast recording

01:35:09   happened last week for sure.

01:35:10   I realized when you guys came back from the Six Colors recording that I do a very bad

01:35:16   impression of the Six Colors podcast.

01:35:17   Would you like to hear it?

01:35:18   Ooh, I've already heard it.

01:35:19   Yes.

01:35:20   Hi Dan.

01:35:21   Hello Jason.

01:35:22   That's my impression.

01:35:23   That's how every episode starts.

01:35:24   That's good.

01:35:25   Solid.

01:35:26   I love it.

01:35:27   I love the Six Colors secret podcast.

01:35:28   People should listen to it.

01:35:29   Our last question today comes from Matthew.

01:35:31   Matthew says, "Do you think that Apple may have been planning a MacBook and MacBook Pro

01:35:36   refresh like a spec upgrade at WWDC but maybe have held it back based on growing concerns about

01:35:41   keyboards? It seems very specific. I'm going to say the chances are low that this is the reason.

01:35:49   They've known about keyboards for a while now. If there's a production adjustment that happened

01:35:54   because of wanting to change the keyboards, it probably happened a while ago, and they're just

01:35:59   waiting for them to be there. I don't think... I mean, it's possible that this is a cascade of

01:36:05   things involving a change that happened a while ago that has reached the point

01:36:08   where the product got delayed later than they thought because of the change, I

01:36:14   guess, but it would have been... I just... I don't think it was like, "Oh geez, the

01:36:19   keyboards, we can't release it this week." I think it's way more complicated than

01:36:23   that, so I wouldn't put it at the feet of the keyboards.

01:36:26   Obviously there's a Mac release that needs to happen at some point

01:36:31   later this year and it didn't happen here and that's okay so we'll get it later.

01:36:37   It's only been a year since the last laptop refresh and while I would prefer Apple to refresh

01:36:44   their laptops more often than once a year, if they do it in the next few months it's not going to be

01:36:48   a big deal. It's also possible that there's an Intel thing where there's a process that they're

01:36:51   waiting for that they don't have from Intel, I don't know. There's lots of reasons and as well

01:36:57   as them having an idea for how they want to roll it out and they want to roll it out at a different

01:37:01   time, maybe they want to roll it out with Mojave in the fall. They might do that, who

01:37:06   knows. Mojave, mo Macbooks.

01:37:09   Okay. Yep. James Thompson, thank you so much for joining

01:37:13   us. Where can people find your work? Where would you like to direct the upgradeions to?

01:37:19   I think the best place to look for me is on Twitter. James Thompson, T-H-O-M-S-O-N. And

01:37:26   Peekout.com if you want to see a website that should have been updated 20 years ago.

01:37:31   [laughter]

01:37:32   It's an old website with some fancy new logos.

01:37:37   Yeah.

01:37:38   But thank you for having me on this flagship show.

01:37:42   Oh, it's a pleasure.

01:37:43   I've never heard it discussed like that, but I like it.

01:37:46   Upgrade is a flagship show.

01:37:47   Wouldn't you agree, Jason?

01:37:49   Of course, I would agree.

01:37:50   Absolutely.

01:37:51   You can find Jason at SixColors.com and he is @JasonL on Twitter.

01:37:55   I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E, thanks again to all of your sponsors this week, Linode, Fresh

01:38:00   Books and Casper.

01:38:02   We'll be back next time.

01:38:04   Until then, say goodbye Jason Salen, James Thompson.

01:38:07   Goodbye!

01:38:08   Goodbye!

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