192: People Like Colors and Fun


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:09   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, Episode 192, and today's show is brought to you by Eero,

00:00:16   StoryWorth, and Simple Contacts.

00:00:18   My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:22   Hello, Jason.

00:00:23   Hello, Myke Hurley.

00:00:24   How are you?

00:00:25   I'm very well, Jason Snell.

00:00:26   How are you?

00:00:27   I'm doing great.

00:00:28   Do anything interesting this last week?

00:00:29   Sure did, my friend.

00:00:31   I have my bachelor party in Austin, Texas.

00:00:34   Oh, nice.

00:00:34   With a bunch of my favorite people.

00:00:37   But nobody wants to hear about that, Myke.

00:00:39   Oh, look at that.

00:00:40   We're going to go into our hashtag Snell Talk question.

00:00:42   I like that. Very clever. Very clever indeed.

00:00:45   You stuck with me right in.

00:00:46   You took advantage of my jet lag.

00:00:47   Joel wants to know, Jason, if a movie is released in IMAX 3D

00:00:53   and as well as regular 2D,

00:00:55   do you have a preference of which version you would like to see?

00:00:59   Great question, Joel. And my answer is, I don't like 3D movies. I have seen some 3D

00:01:06   movies that I thought were fine, that did a good job, but in general, I don't like

00:01:12   them. I don't like the fact that because of the way the 3D process works, you generally

00:01:16   get a darker picture. I wear glasses, so I don't really like the fact that I spend

00:01:20   an entire movie with two pairs of glasses stuck on my face.

00:01:25   I hate that so much.

00:01:26   It is the worst. So I will always pick a regular 2D movie. IMAX, I've seen some IMAX movies

00:01:33   and if it's an IMAX movie, I like them. But a lot of times there's a film that's in IMAX

00:01:39   often times, like The Dark Knight I saw and it was at an IMAX theater. And it was, most

00:01:44   of the movie was just the movie projected on the giant IMAX screen and then there were

00:01:49   some parts of it that were shot in IMAX that were at the IMAX ratio and then they went

00:01:53   back to the other aspect ratio. My only IMAX movie was Blade Runner 2048 and that had some

00:02:00   IMAX stuff in it and it was glorious, right? Like it looked wonderful. Yeah, it looks great.

00:02:06   It's a little bit weird but I don't have an IMAX theater near me, honestly. Well, I mean

00:02:11   near me. In my county I don't have any. I would have to go to kind of the far side of

00:02:15   San Francisco or out into the East Bay which means I never go to IMAX movies and I try

00:02:20   to avoid the 3D movies. In fact, and we'll put a link in the show notes, I own what are

00:02:26   called 2D glasses. I've never seen these and this is maybe one of the best things I've

00:02:31   ever come across. So if you go to a 3D movie and you don't want to see 3D, you wear these.

00:02:38   That's hilarious. And what it does is, you know, the way 3D movies work is that the two

00:02:43   lenses are polarized differently so that you see two different images and that's how 3D

00:02:49   works is that they give you that depth sensation. 2D glasses are only one side, and so it flattens

00:02:59   the image. I will say, for people who are maybe thinking sort of like, "What about the

00:03:04   purity of the 3D image?" I'll just point out, almost every movie made now that's in 3D is

00:03:09   faked. They have a -- if you look in the credits, like, Infinity War is a good example of this.

00:03:14   If you sit through the credits of any movie, and a Marvel movie is a good one to sit through

00:03:17   the credits through because you want to see what happens in the post-credits sequence,

00:03:21   you will see an entire section of names that are the people who did the 3D conversion because

00:03:28   3D cameras are really heavy and hard to use and most people don't bother. They just shoot

00:03:33   it in 2D and let some company sit there and apply fake depth in order to give that 3D

00:03:39   effect. And if you like 3D movies, that's great, but I don't care for it. I don't think

00:03:43   it's really necessary. I try to avoid them and I have 2D glasses for when I actually

00:03:48   want to avoid them. I also did, in order to cure one of the other issues we've got, I

00:03:54   have bought but haven't used yet, some 3D clip-ons. The idea there is, well, what if

00:04:00   I go to a 3D movie and I can clip some little 3D lenses onto my glasses and don't have that

00:04:06   second set of plastic over my face? And it's compatible with most of the 3D theaters. So

00:04:12   So I've got those, and the next time I end up at a 3D showing, I'm going to try those.

00:04:19   I've used the 2D glasses before, and they worked just fine. But the 3D clip-ons I'm

00:04:25   going to give a try. We'll put links into the show notes. I haven't used it yet, but

00:04:29   if you're curious about that. But Joel, my standard answer here is 2D works for me. In

00:04:35   fact, when they started doing MoviePass and the MoviePass service, where you pay a certain

00:04:39   amount of money and you can see a certain amount of movies that keeps changing. One

00:04:44   of their restrictions is no 3D because of course 3D movies cost more. That's why they

00:04:48   do them so they can charge you more for them and create an experience that you can't get

00:04:52   at home. And I was okay with movie pass being like, "Oh no no, 2D only." Like, "Oh, what

00:04:58   a shame. I can only see a 2D movie." That's what I want to see.

00:05:01   I just said while we're talking about movies, absolutely no spoilers, but I enjoyed Infinity

00:05:06   you wore more the second time. Me too. Sorry for a second time this past week and I enjoyed

00:05:10   it more. Me too and I will also say as an aside it was my first time in an Alamo draft

00:05:14   house and I loved it. Which is a wild experience. I have to say I looked at that and I thought

00:05:20   this is how the movies stay in business. This is how people keep going to movies is stuff

00:05:25   like this because I loved it. I loved it all. I loved the reserved seats which I know a

00:05:28   lot of movie theaters have reserved seats now but none in my area do. I love the reserved

00:05:32   seats. I love the fact that we, you know, order food and it's delivered and if I

00:05:38   want another beer during the show I just write it on a piece of paper and stick

00:05:41   it on on the little thing in front of me and somebody comes by and brings me a

00:05:44   beer and then at the end I sign my credit card slip and it's done. It's

00:05:48   amazing. That's so funny like when the person's like crawling down and they

00:05:53   like hand the beer up to you it's a it's a very weird experience but a good one

00:05:57   at the same time. Yeah, yeah, so thumbs up to a second viewing of Infinity War

00:06:02   thumbs up to the Alamo Drafthouse, thumbs down to 3D.

00:06:06   I think I agree with basically everything you just said. I stopped going to 3D movies

00:06:12   a while ago, I just wasn't interested in it anymore. It just wasn't necessary for me because

00:06:18   it felt like more and more of it was being hamfisted.

00:06:21   And it's more expensive, right? They charge you more for it. That's the other part of

00:06:24   it. If somebody is wondering, by the way, why is it that I am sometimes forced to go

00:06:27   to a 3D movie. It's mostly about logistics. Whether it is I need to see something quickly

00:06:36   for a podcast, which does happen, or whether it's my family can only go at a certain time.

00:06:43   And we don't live, the closest theater to us does not have a lot of screens. In fact,

00:06:47   the closest theater to us has one screen, which is great. But, and it's a great experience,

00:06:52   except if the timing is that the only time we can take the kids is on a Saturday at this

00:06:56   time and it's a 3D showing, well, we're going to go to the 3D showing. If we can avoid it,

00:07:01   we do, but we can't always avoid it. And likewise, if the timing, if I need to go see a movie,

00:07:05   now that I have movie pass, this is probably less so where like I'm really going to try

00:07:09   to use that and not do a 3D showing, but it does happen sometimes where you just end up

00:07:14   at a 3D showing. So it's not as if a big burly man comes and says, "You will go to the 3D

00:07:19   movie now." Like it's not quite like that, but it's just expediency. But if I can avoid

00:07:23   yeah it's cheaper and I don't need to see it and I kind of don't want to see

00:07:26   it which is why I bought the 2d glasses. Do you know if the new Avatar movies are

00:07:30   being shot in 3d again? Oh of course of course. Because I would see that right

00:07:35   because I saw the original Avatar 3d and it was incredible in 3d. I agree I mean

00:07:39   the list I can make a list of 3d movies that I really liked I liked Avatar I

00:07:43   liked Tron Legacy in 3d I thought it looked really cool and Hugo is the one I

00:07:50   keep mentioning. Because yes, Martin Scorsese made a 3D movie that's a family movie and

00:07:56   it's called Hugo. And not only is it a good movie, but it is beautiful in 3D because you

00:08:01   were seeing a master working with the best cinematographers and they were like, "Okay,

00:08:09   we're going to make this in 3D. We're going to make it really good." And it was really

00:08:13   good. But then I've seen all sorts of summer blockbusters in 3D and it just kind of leaves

00:08:18   me cold, it doesn't really do anything for me. There are occasional moments where you

00:08:22   think "oh well that looks pretty cool in 3D" but most of the time I find it distracting

00:08:27   and unnecessary. And plus it does make the movie darker.

00:08:30   I'm really happy about the fact that it feels like the trend of a thing happens in a movie

00:08:36   just because it's going to be in 3D seems to have died away. There's a scene where like

00:08:42   "oh and it's all coming to the screen!" you know, there's been a big crash and there's

00:08:47   debris flying directly at you like it feels like some of that's died off which is good because

00:08:51   you watch a 2d movie and you're like oh that was the big 3d effect that i didn't get to see because

00:08:57   i didn't want to see that i think in star trek is it maybe star trek or star trek into darkness that

00:09:02   there's a uh the warp drive is in 3d and i was like oh that was cute but it's like literally

00:09:06   the only thing that made me excited about the 3d in that movie so you know it's just uh it's i

00:09:12   I don't think it's necessary. It's fine if you like it. Obviously it works enough, although

00:09:19   I've read stories that say that audiences are lukewarm about 3D and that it is more

00:09:24   like they go because it's the time that's convenient for them and that some people are

00:09:29   unhappy when they have to put the glasses on. But as long as it is something that can

00:09:33   boost the--the bottom line, we talked about the Alamo Drafthouse--bottom line is the movie

00:09:38   movie theaters are trying to find ways to get people to come to the movie theater because

00:09:43   it's a good experience instead of staying home. And having movies that are exclusive

00:09:48   is part of it, and that's always been the case since home video happened. There's a

00:09:52   period where you need to see the movie in the theater and that's fine. But it is now

00:09:56   about nice seats, they bring you food, they let you reserve your seats, and 3D is one

00:10:02   of those things that's kind of on that list of, especially since 3D TV didn't take off,

00:10:07   if you want to see the 3D version of anything, you gotta see it in the movie theater because

00:10:11   after that you're basically never going to see it again until some other 3D tech comes

00:10:14   along. Maybe with higher quality VR goggles, maybe 3D will come back in that format because

00:10:22   you need to have the special glasses basically to do 3D. Or they'll invent some amazing 3D

00:10:27   TV that requires no glasses. But the industry's attempt to make 3D TV happen failed and it's

00:10:33   going to be a while before they try again. So it's on the list of things. Good Sound,

00:10:38   theoretically, is on that list too. And anything else they can do to make it a more pleasant

00:10:43   experience. And I believe they can do it. Going to the Alamo Drafthouse convinced me

00:10:48   of that. There are ways to make the movie theater experience a nice one that people

00:10:52   actually are excited about doing. I'm not convinced 3D is a big part of that strategy,

00:10:57   but I get why it's a part of the strategy. Plus, it lets them raise the ticket price

00:11:00   for a lot of showings because they charge extra for 3D.

00:11:04   It's an extra fee they get to charge.

00:11:06   If you would like to send in a Snail Talk question, just send out a tweet with the hashtag

00:11:10   SnailTalk and it goes into a document for us to pull later on.

00:11:13   Thank you to Joel for his excellent question this week.

00:11:16   I wanted to just give a piece of follow up, Jason, in regards to Yoav's #AskUpgrade question

00:11:22   last week where Yoav asked about finding a way to get rid of duplicates basically from

00:11:30   photos app. So when you have a shared file, a shared album of photos and you want to download

00:11:37   them or you end up with a bunch of duplicates. And whilst we don't have a great way to solve

00:11:41   that problem, Nash has a great way to get rid of the duplicates once you've got them

00:11:46   as an app that he uses called Best Photos, which will allow you to detect and remove

00:11:52   duplicate photos from your iOS photo library. So this isn't a complete solution to your

00:11:57   problem, but it can fix it on the other end.

00:11:59   and I'll mention I kind of steered away from the post import scenario because

00:12:06   there are a bunch of options there and that wasn't quite what what he asked but

00:12:10   I'll mention power photos from fat cats off where they are an occasional six

00:12:14   color sponsor so they just sponsored the site a couple weeks ago so there's my

00:12:18   disclaimer but I've used it I mentioned it in the book that I wrote about photos

00:12:22   and it is the successor to their iPhoto library manager product and basically it

00:12:27   does all sorts of stuff including deduping, letting you merge libraries,

00:12:30   letting you separate libraries. So if you're trying to do like

00:12:33   stuff that Photos doesn't do, it's worth looking. I think they've got a demo

00:12:37   version that you can try with PowerPhotos from Fat Cat. So I'll put

00:12:42   that in the show notes too. Because I guess if there isn't a way to fix it on the front end,

00:12:47   yeah, you can detect the duplicates later and that is not ideal, right?

00:12:53   you'd prefer it to be smart about detecting duplicates, but a lot of stuff, writing about

00:12:58   photos for the last few years, I get a lot of emails are like, why doesn't it do this?

00:13:03   And my response is always like, because it doesn't because I mean, like, literally, my

00:13:07   goal is to show you what you can do and how you can work around it. You almost have to

00:13:12   have to view the app as a force of nature, almost like, look, it just doesn't do it.

00:13:17   So it's like, we could complain. That's fine about the fact that it doesn't strip out the

00:13:21   duplicates in some scenarios, but it doesn't. So what are you going to do? And the answer

00:13:27   is find a way to fix that because Apple hasn't fixed it yet. So there are some options there.

00:13:33   Jason, I believe you have some upstream news for me this week.

00:13:37   I do. I have some "doo doo doo doo" upstream news. That's not the theme song for upstream.

00:13:43   I just was trying it out, but it didn't work. Little horn. Well, so last week was something

00:13:49   called Newfronts, which is this totally weird thing. To back it up, there's a thing called

00:13:54   Upfronts, which is when TV networks go to New York and they do a bunch of, it's like

00:13:58   a dog and pony show for advertisers, for the biggest advertisers. And what they're trying

00:14:02   to do is say, "Here are all these great things that we're doing and you should give us advertising

00:14:08   because aren't we awesome?" And that means that Upfronts has become also a media dog

00:14:13   and pony show for the networks to talk about their new fall seasons and what their strategies

00:14:18   are. And the New Fronts are an attempt by new media companies that are also wanting

00:14:26   to reach with advertisers. So it's basically like, "Well, we want to do Upfronts too, so

00:14:29   we're going to do this thing called New Fronts." There's also a thing, I think, called Podfronts

00:14:32   that is by podcast networks. You remember that? Where we saw Lex Friedman got up on

00:14:39   stage and talked about how great Midroll was and the people from Panoply and all that.

00:14:46   Anyway, everybody wants to do a dog and pony show in New York City is basically the story

00:14:50   because you wouldn't want to be in New York City. It's a great city. So, New Fronts was

00:14:54   Hulu, YouTube, Netflix, I think. Well, maybe Netflix wasn't there because they don't have

00:14:58   any ads. Anyway, Hulu was there, YouTube was there, some other streaming services were

00:15:02   there, and they made some news. So, Hulu was at the New Fronts and they announced they

00:15:07   have 20 million subscribers. They're US only. They grew four million in, I think, four or

00:15:12   months. So Hulu showing a lot of growth. One of the challenges with Hulu is it's a US only

00:15:18   service right now. It's not just that their 20 million subs are US only, which is actually

00:15:21   a pretty good number in the US, but what's the rest of their strategy? We've talked about

00:15:26   how Hulu is going to be, if the Disney/Fox merger goes through, majority owned by Disney,

00:15:33   and there's a question of sort of like what happens to it? What's its fate? Does it keep

00:15:36   its other owners or does Disney buy them out? Does Disney use Hulu as the place where its

00:15:42   content that's more adult-oriented, the stuff from Fox and FX goes to, and maybe even some

00:15:47   of the stuff from ABC, instead of going to the other Disney streaming services. The Ham

00:15:54   Maid's Tale is like their number one show. It's a success across the board among viewers

00:15:58   and critics and it's won a lot of awards, so they crowed about that a little bit. And

00:16:03   they pointed out, again, that their catalogue is all about TV, which I think is interesting.

00:16:07   Like, it's a TV brand. They have more TV content than any of their competitors. If you think

00:16:11   about it that's kind of interesting because they've been as I think Netflix

00:16:14   and Amazon have been less interested in having a massive library of old TV shows

00:16:19   and things like that they kind of want some hits and they want originals and

00:16:22   they want movies who is all about TV and then they also have a live TV service

00:16:27   that they introduced that's the over-the-top you know cable replacement

00:16:31   that will show you like shows and channels as they're running live so

00:16:35   that's that's what's going on with Hulu and then YouTube was also there and they

00:16:41   made some news. So they premiered their new original series on YouTube Red, Cobra Kai,

00:16:45   which is the sequel to the Karate Kid movies, which has gotten pretty good reviews actually,

00:16:50   as far as I've seen, which is kind of surprising and funny. And they also gave kind of a weird

00:16:56   presentation where I think the money line from the CEO of YouTube who's Susan Wojcicki,

00:17:03   I don't know how to pronounce that name.

00:17:06   I think it's Wojcicki.

00:17:07   Wojcicki? All right, it's a Polish name. Anyway, she said there is not a playbook for how open

00:17:12   platforms operate at our scale. So it's an admission of weakness. Why is that important?

00:17:17   Well, open platforms at scale is all about, remember, she's talking to advertisers. One

00:17:22   of the challenges about having ads in an open platform like YouTube is, you guessed it,

00:17:29   your ads as these very carefully planned and maybe uptight advertisers are working on their

00:17:36   ad campaigns and then their ad gets put next to something violent, something sexual, something

00:17:42   racist and that totally happens with YouTube.

00:17:47   Or just something that becomes controversial for whatever reason.

00:17:50   Exactly.

00:17:51   And most advertisers don't want to be attached to anything controversial.

00:17:53   They want to be just blend in and be in the background.

00:17:57   YouTube also has its own YouTube TV, live TV over the top streaming service.

00:18:01   So there's another aspect where YouTube is doing that, Hulu is doing that.

00:18:05   Anyway, I thought both of those stories were interesting just as a way of YouTube doing

00:18:11   some original content that is also interesting because we think of YouTube as a brand that

00:18:15   is very much focused on young people and their original content is a show that will appeal

00:18:22   to Gen Xers in terms of nostalgia, which I think is a funny thing, but I think they're

00:18:28   trying to broaden.

00:18:29   I think between this and the YouTube TV over the top service, they're trying to like...

00:18:34   YouTube Red isn't just for my son, it's for me too is what they're trying to say there.

00:18:38   Right, that's interesting.

00:18:39   The person who's probably actually going to be paying the bill in the first place.

00:18:43   It's true, it's true.

00:18:44   I am the one who pays that bill, so that's exactly right.

00:18:47   And then Hulu I think is interesting because there's a lot of questions like, I think Hulu's

00:18:50   actually a pretty good service, but there are so many different questions about like,

00:18:54   how do they build subscribers?

00:18:55   Are they going to go outside the US?

00:18:57   What's Disney going to do?

00:18:58   Because it's potential that in a year or two what we're going to realize is that Hulu is

00:19:02   Disney's worldwide content strategy for streaming stuff that appeals to adults.

00:19:11   That's not their sports strategy or their Disney-branded, Disney-Marvel-Star Wars-branded

00:19:17   thing that's going to skew a little bit younger, but that it's their strategy for

00:19:21   everything else. And that would be an interesting competitor. Also, if they are all about TV,

00:19:28   that gives them another little talking point, right? Like that they pick up all the TV,

00:19:34   whereas Netflix and Amazon maybe are more concerned with their own programming rather

00:19:39   than like picking up programming from other places and putting it in their service. So

00:19:43   that I'm fascinated by where Hulu's going to go in the next couple of years because

00:19:50   there's a lot of potential there. Or it could just go nowhere. That's also possible. But

00:19:53   they do seem to be growing and they seem to have some sort of a plan, but we'll see.

00:19:58   Netflix has released a remixed version of the fourth season of Arrested Development.

00:20:05   This is super weird.

00:20:06   Yeah, okay, it's weird and there's even a weirder backstory here.

00:20:11   Because Mitch Hurwitz, who is the creator of Arrested Development, he actually did this

00:20:15   a long time ago.

00:20:16   We talked about this on the podcast I do with Tim Goodman in July of 2016.

00:20:23   So a year and a half ago, we talked about this.

00:20:27   up two years ago we talked about this and Tim wrote a story we can put in the

00:20:30   show notes in July of 2016 Mitch Hurwitz said he and told him he'd recut the

00:20:37   original fourth season so this was the Netflix original season of Arrested

00:20:41   Development it got kind of mixed reviews it was weirdly shot because they got the

00:20:46   different actors at different points and so what he they ended up releasing this

00:20:50   thing that was almost like Rashomon style it was like different perspectives

00:20:53   It was 15 episodes long. The episodes were, keeping in mind the standard sitcom and the

00:20:59   first three seasons of Arrested Development were about 22 minutes each. These episodes

00:21:03   were 30 minutes all the way up to like 42 minutes long. They were longer, there were

00:21:07   fewer of them, there were 15, and they were in these kind of blocks of like this character's

00:21:12   story and you'd see them cross over with other characters and then the next episode you'd

00:21:16   see a different character's story and you'd see them cross over. It was a very different

00:21:19   format for the show. And my daughter, who's been watching Arrested Development, had that

00:21:25   same comment and she doesn't know the history. She was just like, "Yeah, that four seasons

00:21:28   were really strange. Like, it's not like the first three seasons." Well, what Mitch Hurwitz

00:21:33   told Tim in July 16 is he actually went back and edited a new version of season four that

00:21:41   works like the traditional first three seasons. He got Ron Howard to do new narration. They

00:21:45   used some shots that are not the same shots. It's a different thing. It's got some different

00:21:49   material in it, and it's 22 minute episodes. Like it's just the old show the way it was

00:21:57   done instead of this new format. And that he had done that, and Netflix didn't want

00:22:03   it basically. And he said it was just sitting on a shelf, or probably more accurately sitting

00:22:07   on a hard drive somewhere. But he had gone back and made a new version of the show. And

00:22:12   at the time, Tim wrote about it, people were tweeting about it, everybody who's an Arrested

00:22:16   development fan went bananas about this and I was baffled by why Netflix

00:22:22   wouldn't do anything with it because it's like the same content and you know

00:22:26   other than a contractual thing it's possible that like they would need to

00:22:30   pay 20th television I think is the is the producer of it more money for an

00:22:35   alternate version but I kept thinking to myself streaming shows and services like

00:22:41   this is the perfect way like yeah put out an alternate version that's cool

00:22:45   "Why don't you do that? And why wouldn't you do that if you're Netflix?" Well, almost two

00:22:51   years later, and with a fifth season apparently in production, now Netflix apparently -- my

00:22:57   guess is Netflix thought, "Well, now we can start warming up people for the new season

00:23:01   of Arrested Development and get them excited about it by doing this recut version of season

00:23:06   four. Perhaps this is why they would pay the money and do the promotion to do it." But

00:23:10   they finally did it. After sitting on a -- probably sitting in a hard drive of Mitch Hurwitz for

00:23:14   a couple of years. Last Friday they released this remixed Arrested Development season 4.

00:23:22   So people who are fans of that show and maybe who didn't like season 4 or didn't watch it

00:23:26   might want to give it a go because it's apparently a more standard take consistent with the first

00:23:32   three seasons. And I just love this story because this is a creator taking advantage

00:23:39   of the fact that they've got all this content to do an alternate version of the show that

00:23:43   they made and the the streaming service can just post it and then you've got an

00:23:48   alternate version it's a little bit like how a lot of the sitcoms especially the

00:23:52   Michael Schur sitcom so like The Office and Parks and Recreation and The Good

00:23:57   Place and Brooklyn Nine-Nine a lot of those shows they would drop the the

00:24:02   episode would air at 22 minutes and then on iTunes the next day they would drop

00:24:06   like a 38 minute version that was the one that they wanted to release but it

00:24:10   didn't fit in the time slot. And in most cases, those are the versions that are on Netflix,

00:24:15   which I think is great because that means in the long run, that's the real version of

00:24:19   the show, not the one that ran on a network with commercials. And I think, again, that's

00:24:25   the brilliance of the world we live in now that you can do that, that there's not just

00:24:29   sort of like, we do it once and then we walk away forever. And how could we even offer

00:24:33   another version of it? And here, Mitch Hurwitz has done an entire different season of his

00:24:39   same season. It's really cool. So I haven't watched them yet, but I'm really excited to

00:24:43   watch them because I think it's a great idea. It's just strange that it took two years.

00:24:46   So the new season's coming out at the end of May, and they released a new trailer.

00:24:49   Oh good! That goes alongside it.

00:24:51   So there you go. So it's part of the promotion of the new season.

00:24:54   Yeah. And something that I find interesting though, the original season four has been

00:24:59   replaced with this new one. Oh interesting. So it's not alongside, they

00:25:03   just put it in there. I can't find the original season four.

00:25:07   It just says "Season 1, 2, 3" and then "Season 4 remix, fateful consequences."

00:25:12   Interesting.

00:25:13   Interesting.

00:25:14   That's the list you get now.

00:25:15   Yeah, well, it's also possible that Netflix and Hurwitz talked about it and they're like,

00:25:17   "Yeah, this is better.

00:25:19   Nobody liked it the way we did it.

00:25:20   Let's just replace it and never..."

00:25:22   Because at this point, your viewers of that are people who are binging, which means they

00:25:28   are not seeing the context of the show going off the air for a few years and then coming

00:25:32   back.

00:25:33   Instead all they're seeing is that this thing happened and we move from season three

00:25:40   last episode to season four first episode and like, "Whoa, what happened?"

00:25:43   So you just remove it and it's not a problem anymore.

00:25:45   All right, should we take a break, Jason?

00:25:46   Yeah, it's a great idea.

00:25:47   Today's show is brought to you by StoryWorth, the easiest way to share your family's

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00:28:28   and Relay FM. So over the weekend there was an anniversary, a very important anniversary,

00:28:35   it was the 20th anniversary of the introduction of the iMac. This is the computer we know,

00:28:42   the iMac G3 as it became kind of colloquially known later on because there were multiple

00:28:48   versions of it but this is the Bondi blue and white case that you'll be very familiar with.

00:28:54   So this was this happened over the weekend it's been 20 years since it was introduced on stage

00:29:00   by Steve Jobs in 1998 and I want to talk about a few things about this JSON but what I don't

00:29:06   necessarily want to go through is the introduction itself because we've done that already. We did.

00:29:12   In May 2016, we had Stephen Hackett on the show because at this time, I think he was coming towards

00:29:18   the end of his project of collecting all of the IMAX. And we spoke about kind of the announcement

00:29:24   and you told some stories about what it was like when you were working at Macworld then, right?

00:29:29   Uh, yeah, I was in Macworld then, right. Yeah, no, Stephen told his stories, I told my stories,

00:29:33   and you sat patiently while we talked and perhaps doodled or colored or went away.

00:29:39   I cannot and I will not answer that question. I wanted to look at kind of in context 20 years ago

00:29:48   this product and then kind of looking at how it relates to products of today. So I think first I

00:29:55   wanted to kind of get from you a feeling of this iMac what mark did it leave on Apple? Like do we

00:30:02   see anything else that is a parallel today, good or bad, with this product that maybe

00:30:09   because of its success kind of became ingrained in the company?

00:30:13   I mean, it's always hard to point at one thing or one moment and say that's when it all changed,

00:30:19   right? Because the truth is that what they said later is they started this project the

00:30:25   day Steve Jobs came back in July of the previous year, like that that was when they kicked

00:30:29   it off. And that there were, this is the Columbus project and they ended up shipping these things

00:30:36   and there was, internally there was a lot of turmoil. In fact, you and I were fortunate

00:30:41   to spend some time with a friend of ours who was actually, who was on the iMac software

00:30:46   team, the original iMac software team. Like, they were working on this for a long time

00:30:50   and there was a lot of there. So, we can point to the moment that it surfaced publicly and

00:30:55   say there's the moment but obviously huge amounts of work went in before then

00:30:59   and after that announcement to get that product to ship right I mean it was it

00:31:04   was a huge amount of work but it is on another level I could you point to it

00:31:09   and say what what do they have here like they took the old ports away the it's

00:31:16   actually funny Stephen Hackett and I were talking about this yesterday it's

00:31:20   fun the Macworld story on this actually mentioned something called chirp which

00:31:23   which not a lot of people remember, and I may actually dig through my old magazines

00:31:28   and write something about this, or Stephen will, that there was this idea to create this

00:31:32   common hardware reference platform, which is, I think, what Chirp stood for, and it

00:31:38   was the idea of, like, could you make a PowerPC-based computer that was like a standard PC, just

00:31:44   like an Intel PC was a standard PC, something that everybody who made a PowerPC-based computer,

00:31:49   and at that point there were, like, different companies making them, not just Mac clones

00:31:53   but like for different operating systems and all, and IBM really wanted people to use,

00:31:57   and Motorola to use the PowerPC, and they thought maybe it would be a viable alternative

00:32:02   to an Intel standard PC, would be this chirp standard PC.

00:32:06   So was the idea that by doing this, other people would make Macs? Is that the idea?

00:32:12   Well, I mean, I think that the clones was part of that story, but it was also the idea

00:32:16   that like if you were Motorola or IBM or somebody else and you wanted to do, or be actually

00:32:22   is another example with the BOS, which was considered at one point a possibility as a

00:32:26   replacement for the Mac OS, that if you, or quite honestly, if it had been successful,

00:32:32   Microsoft could have done a PowerPC version of Windows and written to the common platform.

00:32:38   The idea was they wanted to create this common platform that basically any computer that

00:32:44   was running a PowerPC processor would look like. And it didn't happen, basically. There

00:32:49   There were some chirp devices shipped, including I think the Motorola Mac clone was a chirp

00:32:55   computer, although I'm not 100% on that because Motorola did actually ship its own Mac clone

00:32:59   at one point.

00:33:01   But it all fell apart and of course Steve Jobs killed the clones and that was the end

00:33:05   of it.

00:33:06   But why I bring up chirp now...

00:33:07   And the clone wars, right?

00:33:08   And the clone wars, yeah, that was right.

00:33:10   They fought, Darth Vader and Steve Jobs fought together in the clone wars.

00:33:13   That's right.

00:33:14   Tell your kids.

00:33:16   That's the story.

00:33:17   So, I bring it up because in the Macworld article, it actually quotes an Apple product

00:33:24   manager as saying that the iMac project picked up a lot of the stuff from Chirp.

00:33:29   So even though Apple didn't make a Chirp Mac, it used that stuff in order to, you know,

00:33:35   simplify and modernize and it still used that as a jumping off point in terms of building

00:33:39   the iMac.

00:33:40   And what that got them was a modern Mac and a break from the past.

00:33:44   And I think what's interesting about that is not Apple participating in kind of an industry

00:33:49   consortium to build something, which is not a thing that they do a lot today, but the

00:33:54   idea that Apple used that tech to do what it wanted to do, which is make a clean break.

00:33:59   And you see echoes of that in all sorts of other times that they have dropped features.

00:34:04   We joke about all the features that get dropped from Apple's devices.

00:34:07   The optical drives went away at some point, and USB-A went away.

00:34:11   The MacBook only has the one thing.

00:34:12   headphone jack went away on the iPhone when they went from dock

00:34:17   connector to lightning. People complained about that, like, that Apple is fearless

00:34:20   about doing that. So that's part of it. And the design forward is part of it

00:34:27   too. Like, there were a couple of Macs—I read a story today that said this was

00:34:31   the one where Apple's design language came forward. And it's like, well, again,

00:34:36   the story's a little more complicated than that. The Power Mac G3, the beige one,

00:34:41   had this weird plastic like green translucent plastic thing on it that was

00:34:47   like it was like Johnny Ive trying to let me out let me out I want to do

00:34:51   something interesting I put a green plastic thing somewhere. And then

00:34:55   they did I don't think the Wall Street PowerBook G3 gets enough credit those

00:34:58   were crazy looking at the time they had these black laptops with kind of a rubberized

00:35:04   surface and the white Apple logo on the back like they were so different from

00:35:11   the previous PowerBook G3 that preceded them, that you could tell that Apple was doing some

00:35:19   really different things from design standpoint, even though that was probably a product that

00:35:23   was in the works, and at most they sort of agreed to pump up the design stuff a little

00:35:28   bit and make it look a little more interesting in the time that they had. And that came out

00:35:32   a couple months before the iMac was announced, right? So you could get the sense that things

00:35:36   were starting to happen design-wise, but then you look at the iMac, and like, the iMac design

00:35:41   design is unlike anything that was out there. It was incredibly influential in the computer

00:35:46   industry and outside the computer industry. Basically, I would say in the plastics industry,

00:35:51   everybody who made plastic things suddenly said, "Oh, we can finally, somebody is allowing

00:35:56   us," because I think they could always do it, right? The question was like nobody wanted

00:36:00   translucent plastic and colored plastic, brightly colored plastic. And once Apple did the iMac,

00:36:06   like every kitchen appliance and clock radio and everything else was available

00:36:11   in a translucent, bright plastic version.

00:36:15   It became premium, right? In the same way that making everything white became premium after the iPod.

00:36:20   It's like everybody agreed that nothing could be anything but black, white, or beige,

00:36:23   and then Apple was like, "Yeah, we're making a bright blue computer, and good luck.

00:36:27   Just deal with it." And everybody was like, "Oh, people like colors and fun.

00:36:33   Maybe we should do that." And that was a big part of it, too.

00:36:36   So I think you see that today.

00:36:38   I will use this as my monthly request for more color

00:36:41   in Apple devices.

00:36:42   Yeah, well, I think you see it, but it comes and goes, right?

00:36:45   And right now, Apple stuff is like, well, everybody

00:36:48   get excited, because not only is there silver,

00:36:50   now there's a slightly darker silver that we call space gray.

00:36:54   And it's not like, more shades of gray, it's very exciting.

00:36:57   And occasionally, some product will get gold,

00:37:00   and then there will be the product red.

00:37:01   Is that one red one?

00:37:02   Yeah, that's six months later.

00:37:04   Did you wait for the red one?

00:37:05   So yes, I agree there should be more color in Apple products.

00:37:08   That would be something that I would like them to come back to.

00:37:11   But if you remember like the iPod Nanos and all of that,

00:37:13   like they, that was the same kind of approach too.

00:37:17   So I think that those are some of the places where you see this culture that

00:37:22   Steve Jobs was basically building at that point that continues on to this day that

00:37:27   is in the DNA of Apple and the iMac was the first like full representation of all

00:37:33   of that and it evolved and changed as everything does but I think that it was a clear first

00:37:40   100% step in that direction.

00:37:42   So whilst if you look at any kind of successful company, person, entity, you can kind of draw

00:37:48   a line between all of the dots to see if they're, you know, to go to the success. You know,

00:37:54   you could be like, "Oh, they had that teacher and then they went to that class," or that

00:37:57   kind of thing.

00:37:58   I wonder if we have a special case here when it comes to the iMac G3 when I ask this question,

00:38:04   which is, would we have the iPhone today if the iMac never existed?

00:38:08   So going back to my previous point about like pointing to a moment, in my article that I

00:38:13   wrote on Six Colors about this, I said, and again, I hesitate because there's no such

00:38:19   thing as a moment. That is all stagecraft. Like it's months and years of work that lead

00:38:26   to that moment. But in terms of the outside world, if you watch that keynote from the

00:38:31   Flint Center, and I wasn't there, because at that point, I suspect Apple was calling

00:38:37   us in for briefings, thinking they had something to show us, and in the chaos of the early

00:38:42   days of Steve Jobs, then they ended up not. Because we had a couple briefings where nothing

00:38:46   happened and we're like, "Why did we come down here? You've got nothing to say." And

00:38:49   so for this one, it was a little like the boy who cried wolf. We're like, "Yeah, sure,

00:38:53   got something else and so only our editor-in-chief went. But if you watch that video, the first

00:38:59   half hour of it, or 20 minutes of it, it's amazing. It's like Steve Jobs is sort of like

00:39:05   saying, "We're not gonna die." He puts up a chart about employee retention and says,

00:39:12   "People aren't quitting at Apple as fast as they used to. That's really good. So we're

00:39:16   doing better. This is no longer a place that people are trying to escape."

00:39:20   i'm really pleased reports you that apples back on track when you have great

00:39:24   people the most important thing is to not lose them when i came back to apple

00:39:29   last summer apples was a lot of them nutrition rate analyzed was thirty three

00:39:34   percent and i'm very pleased to say the ten months later nutrition rate is

00:39:38   fifteen percent and part of that is because people now see how apple can win

00:39:43   again another part of that is 'cause we've made apple much more

00:39:46   entrepreneurial place all the key employees have lots of stock options

00:39:49   boy those presentations are different then. Right? And it was like, you know, and the

00:39:54   Mac sales are going pretty well and, you know, we had the PowerBook G3, that Wall Street

00:39:58   G, and it's really good and we're gonna, I think they made like some adjustments to it,

00:40:02   but it basically had been out for a couple of months. There was a lot of Phil Schiller

00:40:06   coming out on stage to demo like various PCs from Compaq and Dell against Macs so that

00:40:15   they could show the megahertz myth because in those days what they were trying to do

00:40:18   do is say that even though the PowerPC G3 processor had a lower clock speed than a bunch

00:40:22   of the Pentium IIs, that they were actually faster. You couldn't just compare the megahertz

00:40:28   that you had to say like this 333 G3 was actually faster than a 400 Pentium II. But they had

00:40:35   to do like bake-offs where they like start Photoshop results and then Steve and Phil

00:40:39   would stand there and watch as the computers like worked in split screen. It was super

00:40:45   weird.

00:40:46   Tell us about your computer here.

00:40:47   here to come out and try to take you on head-to-head because you asked me to go

00:40:51   out and get the biggest and the best and I did. This is the brand new Compaq

00:40:54   Armada 7800. It's got a Pentium II, the new mobile Pentium II 266. That's the

00:41:00   fastest speed it runs at. It's just been announced. You can't get much better than

00:41:03   this. I'm scared. So we're just gonna have to find out. Now up on this screen on

00:41:10   your left we have the Compaq Armada Pentium II 266. In the middle we have our

00:41:16   new PowerBook G3 running at 233 megahertz and on the far right we have

00:41:21   the G3 running at 292 megahertz. Of course both of these machines are less

00:41:25   money than the Compaq. So let's go ahead. What we're gonna do now is we're gonna

00:41:28   run Photoshop. What a lot of our customers like to do and have been dying

00:41:32   to do on a fast portable. So we've got Photoshop here and we've got exactly the

00:41:36   same file on all of these computers. But it's all about like I need to justify

00:41:42   that Apple still exists because you all remember last year and figured we were

00:41:45   going out of business and now I need to completely change the narrative. It's amazing how hard

00:41:51   he's working to get people to believe that Apple is not about to die.

00:41:55   -Cause you have to do that before you unveil a new product.

00:41:57   -Right, right. Well, and he knows what's coming, right? He knows what's coming. But what's

00:42:01   amazing about it, and he at one point he's like, and especially when you see what we

00:42:04   have today, right? Like, "Ha ha, I'm gonna tease what I've got coming." All of that said,

00:42:09   the moment that he takes the little drape off of the iMac and reveals it.

00:42:14   This is what they look like today. And I would like to take the privilege of showing you

00:42:20   what they're going to look like from today on. This is IMAQ. This is IMAQ. The whole

00:42:34   thing is translucent. You can see into it. It's so cool.

00:42:38   That is literally the moment that Apple went from dead to alive. Like literally that is

00:42:42   the moment and from that moment to 20 years later it has been up up up for

00:42:48   Apple like that was the moment without that moment they probably wouldn't be

00:42:53   around I know because the Mac although the Mac was kind of turning around I

00:42:56   think if Apple had just continued doing beige products and all of that like

00:42:59   would they have gotten to the iPod would they have been able to sell the iPod

00:43:04   would the popularity of the iPod have given them more gas because they weren't

00:43:09   just getting the gas from sales of the iPod, but they got way boosted, the Mac sales got

00:43:14   boosted because of the halo effect where people finally were having positive experiences with

00:43:19   Apple as a brand that they had never had before. Again, we've gone long enough now that people

00:43:25   forget the iPod halo effect. The iPod was, for most people, the first Apple product they

00:43:30   ever bought. And they were like, "Oh, this is great." Or they went into an Apple store

00:43:36   then they saw the Mac and they're like "Oh, Apple makes a computer! This is way

00:43:39   better than that PC that I have! I'm going to get one of these too!" And that

00:43:43   was the infusion of energy and cash that Apple needed in the 2000s in

00:43:49   order to keep going. And I don't think they would have gotten there

00:43:51   without the iMac, which was a hit because it was different, but also because it was

00:43:56   priced pretty well, and because it was the right time. Because up to that point,

00:44:00   so many computers, the idea was "Well, I need a computer at home so I can do some

00:44:04   of my work when I'm at home, and so it needs to be a PC, and it needs to do everything

00:44:08   that my office PC does. But by like the late 90s, really what you needed was you wanted

00:44:14   to get on the internet and maybe check your email. And you could do that on a Mac, so

00:44:18   like there was a real opportunity for the Mac to no longer be seen as this weird incompatible

00:44:22   computer, but to be seen as an appliance that lets you get internet and email at home. And

00:44:30   Jeff Goldblum narrated ad where it's like step one plug it in step two get connected and they plug in the phone cable

00:44:36   There's no step three right like that was the whole appeal of the iMac

00:44:40   You should just plop one of these things down in your living room

00:44:42   It looks kind of neat and weird and fun and you're on the internet

00:44:46   And it's all just you know you don't have to hook up a monitor and do anything like that

00:44:51   it's like super simple all in one and

00:44:53   That was powerful and they sold a lot of them very quickly it became the

00:45:00   the Mac product, the definitive Mac for a very long time afterward, and set Apple on

00:45:05   its way to the iPod and ultimately to the iPhone. But they would never have gotten there

00:45:12   without a product like this because Mac sales were kind of ebbing and everybody—there

00:45:17   was nothing to be excited about. There had been so much press about Apple dying that

00:45:22   there needed to be a turnaround. And you know, in the background, they're working on OS X

00:45:25   because they came—when Jobs came back, he came back with Next Step and they knew they

00:45:29   were going to do a new operating system, but they didn't have it ready yet. So this is

00:45:33   not an OS X device when it ships. It's an OS 8, 6 device, I think. And, you know, so

00:45:40   there's a lot of stuff bubbling in the background, but the hardware alone got people excited

00:45:44   about this computer. And that was how Apple changed its fate.

00:45:49   Is the iMac G3 a product that can only come from a struggling company? Like, could Apple

00:45:56   be that kind of daring again? Or is this always like a Hail Mary to do something so far out

00:46:04   of left field?

00:46:05   I think on your average company, this is not the kind of product that they could do. But

00:46:11   I think that's what Apple is trying to do all the time. I think Apple at its best and

00:46:17   what, again, they don't succeed a lot of the time and they do have to maintain existing

00:46:22   products and iterate them and all of that. But they also have those moments where they

00:46:26   take a leap. And I think Steve Jobs wanted that in Apple's corporate culture. I think

00:46:33   that's the thing that he always wanted Apple to strive for, is what's the next big thing?

00:46:36   We're going to take another crack at this. And we're not going to be afraid of upsetting

00:46:40   the install base. Like, you know, we laugh about it now, about how Mac users were kind

00:46:46   of all up in arms about the iMac because it broke compatibility with literally everything.

00:46:49   You think the headphone jack thing is bad when they took the headphone jack off?

00:46:53   You had every Mac for the previous like 10 years had shipped with SCSI ports and ADB

00:47:01   ports and serial ports and they are all gone in one system.

00:47:06   They're gone.

00:47:07   Gone never to return.

00:47:09   You can buy at Dongle's, you can go to Dongle Town.

00:47:11   Dongle Town was smaller then, Myke, but it was still there out on the frontier on the

00:47:15   main road.

00:47:16   Dongle Hamlet.

00:47:17   Yeah, it was more of a Dongle Village at that point.

00:47:19   - It was definitely there, it wasn't incorporated yet,

00:47:21   didn't have a lot of tall buildings,

00:47:22   but boy, it was there because I had,

00:47:25   I still have some USB serial adapters and USB ADB adapters,

00:47:28   but they did, they made that break.

00:47:33   It was a big deal, but part of what Jobs wanted Apple

00:47:37   to think collectively in its culture was

00:47:40   the users will come along if there's a benefit.

00:47:43   Now there are positives and negatives to that approach

00:47:45   and all the conversation about the Mac laptops

00:47:48   the last couple of years is definitely it cuts both ways but there is something

00:47:52   to be said like that iMac was the point was that it wasn't for those existing

00:47:56   Mac users like it was for new users who wanted to come to the Mac. The Mac wasn't

00:48:01   selling enough to just the faithful to just the install base they needed to

00:48:05   sell to new people and the new people didn't care and in the end the new

00:48:08   people would benefit from having USB where you could literally like this was

00:48:12   the era where if you wanted to detach your hard drive or attach a hard drive

00:48:16   You had to shut down the computer and then unplug everything and then or replug it and

00:48:21   then turn it back on.

00:48:23   And USB is hot pluggable basically so you can just unplug or unplug and it's fine.

00:48:27   Like that was huge.

00:48:29   And how long did Apple just kind of putter around with this old stuff?

00:48:34   So I think Steve Jobs wanted to instill in Apple the feeling that if they felt that there

00:48:38   was a benefit to ditching something like the lightning port or not the lightning port like

00:48:43   the dock connector for the lightning port or like the headphone jack and we

00:48:46   can argue about like the headphone jack was that a good idea and USB-C for USB-A

00:48:51   but you can see why they do it. They do it because Steve Jobs wanted them to have

00:48:56   that culture of like break the rules throw the old thing away. The iPod nano

00:49:00   is a great example of that where they follow that on whatever five six seven

00:49:04   years later where they had the iPod mini and it was incredibly successful and it

00:49:08   was more successful than the iPod and they killed it because the nano was

00:49:11   better and it was a totally different product and that was super weird but

00:49:15   that was the culture was throw the old thing away we want to be our own

00:49:18   replacement flash storage is the future let's let's just kill the old product

00:49:23   and that worked for them so that is I would even say that's the thing when we

00:49:29   criticize Apple and they often do deserve criticize criticism about it

00:49:33   what I like about them is they are always trying this stuff and it doesn't

00:49:39   always work and they deserve criticism when it doesn't work, but I do like that they try

00:49:44   and that comes from Steve Jobs instilling that in their culture. Like, look at the iMac,

00:49:50   it's a great example. Like, they just made a break and it worked for them and there's

00:49:54   something to be said for that because the argument is, if you don't make a break because

00:49:59   you're super comfortable, someone else will do it and they will eat your lunch. So you

00:50:03   better be your own replacement. Build your own replacement, be your best competition.

00:50:08   And I do think that Apple, at its best, when it's working at its best, is doing that.

00:50:13   Happy Birthday, iMac.

00:50:14   Yeah, yeah, it's funny.

00:50:16   I have on my wall a 20th anniversary of the Macintosh cover from Macworld.

00:50:23   And we've come all the way, I guess it's 14 years later, because we've come all the way

00:50:28   to the 20th anniversary of the iMac.

00:50:31   Amazing.

00:50:32   I mean, the iMac now is older than the original Mac was when the iMac was introduced.

00:50:37   That's the thing that blows me away a lot older, but that's how time works.

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00:53:48   So Apple results were last week and it was mostly good, right?

00:53:57   I don't think there were any blockbusters in either direction really.

00:54:02   No, I think they slightly beat their estimates.

00:54:05   They increased their revenue year over year.

00:54:08   They had good results in China, even though people were worried about that.

00:54:13   The iPad did okay.

00:54:14   Mac went down a smidge, right?

00:54:17   went down in units but was flattened revenue or flattened units and up in

00:54:21   revenue it was one of those things where basically what you were seeing is that

00:54:24   the even though it seemed flat revenue was better and that was probably at

00:54:30   least in part because of the iMac Pro just because the iMac Pro boost is

00:54:35   expensive and they they introduced it so they sold a lot of them

00:54:38   relatively speaking you know maybe not a huge amount but enough to boost revenue

00:54:43   revenue, the ratio, right, we figured out average selling price by looking at the ratio

00:54:47   of the sales units to the sales revenue and the revenue went up so the average selling

00:54:53   price went up, which I point at and say, "Well, the iMac Pro was there and that's a much more

00:54:59   expensive computer than they usually sell and therefore it dragged it up a little bit."

00:55:04   But yeah, it was, I mean, the get routine, it was a huge quarter, Apple makes so much

00:55:08   money but in the end most of it was pretty much what you'd expect it was the

00:55:14   continuing story not anything kind of revelatory but there was one little

00:55:19   thing which is kind of interest it was because it was about a very big thing so

00:55:24   since the release of the iPhone 10 there have been many analysts reports and this

00:55:30   we saw this last quarter we saw it this quarter as well last quarter is just

00:55:34   proven by numbers, this quarter it was just proven by numbers, that people have been saying

00:55:39   that iPhone X sales have been struggling. This has been a thing that has been, like

00:55:44   even like the day before I think Bloomberg published this big thing, you know, "Oh, the

00:55:49   iPhone X's are going to be down. It's been a big disappointment and they're going to

00:55:52   forecast it down again and they're going to miss their forecast." None of this happened.

00:55:58   And Apple is saying that it's their top selling phone and has been their top selling phone

00:56:03   since the day it was introduced every week to not just per quarter but every

00:56:08   single week it's the number one selling more iPhone tens than any other phone

00:56:12   it's difficult to know what the exact mix is but it's like they're selling

00:56:15   more iPhone tens than like they are pluses you know I don't know if maybe

00:56:19   when you add both eights together like but you know single handset exactly and

00:56:25   again right like they in their forecasts they forecast an increase in profit and

00:56:31   sorry, increasing revenue year over year, and the literal only way Apple can do that

00:56:36   is by selling more iPhones, right?

00:56:38   There's nothing else that will drive the revenue so significantly for them currently.

00:56:43   It has to be selling more iPhones.

00:56:45   So what is going on?

00:56:49   Why are analysts consistently having this thought that iPhone X is tanking?

00:56:57   I have a theory about the iPhone X one.

00:57:00   There is an overarching theory which is that, which I don't know enough about the investing

00:57:06   world to talk about other than to say that there is one theory that says that the Apple

00:57:12   bears are manipulating the stock, right? That they literally are contrarian because they

00:57:18   are suppressing the Apple stock so that they can make money on the Apple stock, which again,

00:57:24   it's a conspiracy theory and I don't know enough about that world.

00:57:27   You can see that though, right? Like, I mean, it doesn't seem like a wild, like it doesn't

00:57:32   seem like something from fiction. Like, of course I can understand that.

00:57:35   It's either that or there's something about Apple that brings out people who are, um,

00:57:40   who don't understand reality. Um, and maybe that's true too, because that's been true

00:57:45   for years. But the thing is, correct me if I'm wrong,

00:57:49   but in recent times, this, this feels a little bit out of place.

00:57:52   Well, the iPhone X thing has been going on for a while now, and I think I've got my theory,

00:57:59   so here it is. First off, if we go back to before the iPhone X was announced, when you

00:58:04   and I were talking about it and it was this theoretical high-end phone and all of that,

00:58:08   there was a lot of consternation about like, how are they going to do it? How are they

00:58:12   going to make it so that they sell this one? Are people going to want the other one? Are

00:58:15   people going to just defer purchases because they don't want to buy what we now know is

00:58:20   the iPhone 8 when the iPhone X exists, that seems to not have happened, but that was the

00:58:24   beginning of a narrative that you could pick up. And I think some people picked it up,

00:58:27   a negative narrative, like Apple's changing their strategy, fear, fear, right? So we get

00:58:33   into the release and there's some skepticism and it continues to build and there was like

00:58:38   a supply chain report at some point that said that a couple of Apple suppliers were cutting,

00:58:45   had their orders cut, including, I think, for the OLED screens from Samsung.

00:58:50   And you can see how people start to make those assumptions based upon that, right?

00:58:54   Yeah, although there were some just totally weird assumptions, like the one that said

00:58:57   the iPhone X is "end of life," which I can't tell whether that was somebody who

00:59:03   doesn't know what they're talking about or whether there was a mistranslation or

00:59:06   misunderstanding because they're going to stop making the current iPhone X and do a

00:59:11   a new iPhone 10 for the fall, which is probably closer to the truth, right? That it's not

00:59:16   like they're killing the iPhone 10, but that they're going to end the, they're going to

00:59:19   stop making that one and make the new one, which who knows whether they'll do that or

00:59:23   not. I think it's, I think it's possible. I think it's likely in fact, but, um, so what

00:59:27   ended up happening also, let's back up and say, what do we say when there are sources

00:59:33   that are anonymous sources or that are insider sources, you always have to ask, what do they

00:59:38   have to gain by sharing this information. And in the case of suppliers, what they have

00:59:44   to gain is blaming someone else for their bad results because they didn't sell as many

00:59:50   of these things that they usually supply. So they say, "Oh, well, our results are going

00:59:55   to be bad because Apple didn't buy as many. It's Apple's fault. Apple's having trouble.

00:59:59   It's not us. It's not us. We're great. Apple's having trouble." So that's all going on in

01:00:04   the background. And then the results come out and it's like, "No, the iPhone X is still

01:00:07   the best-selling iPhone, iPhone sales are good, where is this disaster?" And I think

01:00:14   Apple made those statements about the iPhone X specifically to bat down those rumors and

01:00:19   say, "Nope, you're wrong." Here's my theory. If you look at the average selling price of

01:00:23   the iPhone, the holiday quarter, and when the iPhone X had just come out, and you look

01:00:29   at the average selling price of the iPhone for this most recent quarter, January for

01:00:34   for Burry March. It's lower, sequentially. It's higher year over year because the iPhone

01:00:40   10 is more expensive and the iPhone 8 and 8 Plus are more expensive than the 7 and 7

01:00:44   Plus were. Let's not forget that, that Apple raised the price on their other phones too.

01:00:48   So year over year, the average selling price is up, but sequentially it's down a little

01:00:53   bit. What does that mean? And my guess is, what that means is that the iPhone 10 sold

01:01:01   an awful lot at the very beginning and the gap between it and the other iPhone models

01:01:07   was greater and since it's a more expensive product, the ASP was higher and that after

01:01:13   that initial burst of iPhone X sales over the next three months in this new quarter,

01:01:18   they came down a little bit. They're still number one, but they're not as far ahead of

01:01:23   the 8 and 8 Plus as they were. Yeah, they haven't done a lap around the course, right?

01:01:28   you know, number two is catching up.

01:01:30   - Which is maybe not shocking,

01:01:32   given that there was the pent up demand for the iPhone X

01:01:35   and so that there were an awful lot of those sold.

01:01:38   I think it's impressive that the iPhone X did

01:01:39   as well as it did in that quarter,

01:01:42   'cause it was only available for a third of it.

01:01:44   - Exactly, and also you'd think that like a $1,000 phone

01:01:48   will probably do its best numbers at two points

01:01:51   when it's released and the holiday quarter.

01:01:53   - And it was simultaneous. - When it goes to.

01:01:54   - Right.

01:01:55   - Yeah, and so like, you know,

01:01:56   that's when that's gonna happen,

01:01:58   And you say it happens at the same time.

01:01:59   - So here's my theory.

01:02:00   My theory is that Apple looked at how well it did

01:02:03   in December and said, "Whoa, it's gonna do this gap

01:02:06   away from the eight for its life.

01:02:08   This is what it's gonna be.

01:02:10   So this is how many we need to make."

01:02:12   And then as it got into that first calendar quarter

01:02:14   of this year, beginning of this year,

01:02:16   they started to see that that's not really

01:02:18   where it was gonna be.

01:02:19   It was gonna still be above the other phones,

01:02:21   but not quite as high up.

01:02:23   And that means that they bought too many components

01:02:26   for what the actual selling rate was. And that means they have more inventory. And Luca,

01:02:32   the CFO of Apple, said on the analyst call last week, basically that, he said, "Yeah,

01:02:37   we ended up with a little more inventory and it'll work itself out." And that was a very

01:02:41   pointed response to a pointed question about essentially the rumors that they had cut production

01:02:47   of the iPhone X. And I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, right? He kind of

01:02:52   shrugged it off as like, "Look, it happens. We had a little more inventory and it'll work

01:02:56   itself out soon and it's not a big deal. And the question was like, "Oh, Breathless. Oh,

01:03:01   iPhone X was doomed. What happened?" The truth is, I think, they looked at December and thought

01:03:07   the iPhone X was going to sell a bit more than it actually is selling.

01:03:10   Yeah, they may have gotten a little bit over excited.

01:03:12   Right. Or as Tim Cook said, "We won the Super Bowl, but not by as many points as we would

01:03:16   have liked to." Which is a weird metaphor, but you can sort of see it like we're very

01:03:21   proud of the product and it's great and it is our number one product even if you know

01:03:28   it didn't win by 30 points or whatever it still won the Super Bowl and it still gets

01:03:33   the ring that's what he was trying to say and I think that's I think that's the source

01:03:37   of this entire rumor I think the source of this rumor is that Apple in the natural course

01:03:41   of things and again you might not even notice this if this weren't Apple and everybody wants

01:03:45   to know everything about Apple I think Apple made a judgment in December and then they

01:03:49   looked in January and they're like, "Oh, it's a little less than we thought." But we already

01:03:54   have them in the process of we bought the screens and we bought the components and we're

01:03:57   going to start producing them, which means we're going to end up with a little more inventory

01:04:01   of iPhone Xs that we want, but we know the demand is still there, and so we will dial

01:04:06   back on our orders and that'll get us back in balance and we'll be able to continue to

01:04:11   make as many iPhone Xs as we can sell, but we have a little hump. It's like a snake eating

01:04:18   a pig or something and there's the bulbs and the bulbs moves through. Okay, a cartoon snake

01:04:23   eating a cartoon pig probably. I don't know about actual snakes and pigs. You know, and

01:04:28   it'll work its way through and then out the other side and then that's it, right? Like

01:04:32   they made an estimate. It was a little high. They put it into balance, but meanwhile they

01:04:37   had cranked up the machine a little bit, so they got to crank the machine back down to

01:04:41   get it in balance. I suspect that's it. That's the entire story of, "Oh, the iPhone 10 is

01:04:46   terrible and doomed and they're going to stop making it all is sourced from the

01:04:49   fact that Apple made a judgment in December and then in January or February

01:04:53   made a slightly different judgment to back off a little bit and that's it

01:04:57   that's your whole story but I guess that's a window into how supply chain

01:05:02   details and people who want to break stories about Apple and make big

01:05:06   speculation about like that moment when Apple finally takes a big stumble will

01:05:10   will lead you to places that maybe aren't actual places. And in this case, I think that's

01:05:17   what it is.

01:05:18   It seems like the expectation, and I understand it, is that it's got to happen eventually.

01:05:23   So maybe it's next quarter, right? Like, and I think that's where a lot of this is coming

01:05:28   from that, like, any indication that this might be the quarter will set people into

01:05:34   a tailspin.

01:05:35   What is the greatest enemy of attention? I was going to say of journalism, of being an

01:05:39   analyst, but really, what's the greatest enemy of attention? It's attention's arch-enemy,

01:05:44   boredom. The usual is boring and nobody clicks through on stories and listens to analysts

01:05:51   about boring, usual, business as usual, right? No one wants to read that story of like, "Oh,

01:05:57   it's going to be alright." So if I tell you I have insider information that Apple is going

01:06:01   to kind of continue on its upward trajectory, the phone sales are going to be pretty solid,

01:06:06   services are going to continue to go up, they're going to introduce new products, and in the

01:06:10   end, Apple is not one of these companies that's going to burn out and fade away. It's just

01:06:14   going to kind of be boring and grow slowly and make huge amounts of money. Then, if I

01:06:21   could come back from the future and tell you that, like, it's not going to stop analysts

01:06:25   and writers from hoping that something happens, because that's boring. It's like, "Come on,

01:06:31   do something, do something!" It's the same thing when we talked about the Apple Watch

01:06:34   and people are like, "This is why Apple must release a watch and why it must be the next

01:06:38   iPhone and why it must be a game changer." It's like, must? As long as the iPhone is

01:06:43   growing and doing well, Apple must not do anything. They don't must anything at all.

01:06:50   All Apple must do is keep making good iPhones. That's all Apple must do.

01:06:54   Essentially true. If Apple keeps making good iPhones and the iPhone keeps selling, for

01:06:59   a very long time that's all Apple must do. Now they must find the next thing for when

01:07:05   the iPhone is no longer, when smartphones are no longer the product category that everybody

01:07:09   cares about. That may be a very long time and that's part of the problem here. It's

01:07:12   like, come on, I'm just in my career as an analyst, writer, whatever. Right now, I don't

01:07:18   want to wait 15 years for the next big transition. I want something big to happen right now.

01:07:23   Change the world again. I need that. Right now. And it's not because Apple needs to,

01:07:27   because we want to see it collectively and that's a more interesting story. And so that's

01:07:33   why I think these things are going to continue even if Apple, in fact even more so if Apple

01:07:37   is just a boring, incredibly popular successful company because boring doesn't sell. Boring

01:07:43   is the enemy of attention and I think that that leads to things getting hyped up that

01:07:50   are nothing. Which is not to say that Apple couldn't do something that is really deserving

01:07:53   of attention, that they couldn't have a flop, that they couldn't make a terrible decision

01:07:56   that leads to harming their business totally could happen but in the absence

01:08:00   of that people will still write stuff like this because they're desperate for

01:08:04   something to say and modern Apple is in many ways as we we pick through like

01:08:10   where they're going with the Mac and stuff and iOS and how it's interesting

01:08:13   and it's very interesting to speculate about that stuff but especially as a

01:08:17   business modern Apple is super boring above the waterline where we can see it

01:08:22   where it's just not about future products it's just about the stuff they

01:08:24   release and how much they sell, they're boring. They're a money machine. They make

01:08:28   a huge profit. They sell a lot of phones. They sell other stuff too. What more can

01:08:32   you say? And every time I turn on CNBC, which I only turn on on the day of the

01:08:36   results, there is always somebody there is like, "Oh, Apple's done for," and

01:08:39   somebody else. And then the results come out and everybody's like, "Money, money,

01:08:42   money, money, money! Amazing! It's an amazing thing!" And it's like, yeah, sure,

01:08:47   being a huge company that makes a lot of money and sells a lot of products, it is

01:08:51   boring but it's also you know it's pretty good if you're that company and that you know that's

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01:10:08   plug the main thing in and then the little Eero beacons and that's what helps you expand your

01:10:14   wonderful Wi-Fi coverage out throughout your home.

01:10:17   And also those little beacons, they have a built in LED nightlight with an ambient

01:10:22   light sensor in them. So it just adds another little bit of use to the home.

01:10:25   And you can add as many Eero beacons as you want, as long as you have a standard

01:10:30   Eero device. So you can put as many in no matter how big your home is, you can

01:10:34   stretch out that Wi-Fi coverage throughout the house.

01:10:37   Jason, I know that you have an Eero at home, right?

01:10:41   And I guess we were talking about this.

01:10:43   Aero is a great thing right now, especially if you've been a customer of previous companies

01:10:49   who made previous white products.

01:10:54   If you're coming from an airport, it definitely has the same kind of design, since these are

01:10:57   little white bricks that you plug into a wall, or that it's a little white block, and they've

01:11:02   got an app to let you configure it, and it's pretty simple to configure it.

01:11:06   And for me, one of the things I liked about it is that in the early days of Wi-Fi, if

01:11:10   If you tried to have multiple base stations, they would kind of fight.

01:11:13   An Eero is made to be a multi-station system and they talk to each other, but what you

01:11:18   see is kind of continuous Wi-Fi everywhere.

01:11:20   So you can put them in a couple places.

01:11:22   Depending on the size of your house, you might need many of them.

01:11:25   Congratulations that you have a house that large.

01:11:27   I don't, but I still have three, I think, in different places in my house.

01:11:31   And what it means is my smart bulbs that are over my driveway in the very front of my house

01:11:35   and me sitting in a chair in the backyard in the very back of my house.

01:11:40   it's all covered, the whole, you know, our whole footprint of our house and the areas

01:11:45   outside of it where we stand or we have devices, it's all covered because, you know, you just

01:11:51   plug it all in and say, "Okay, Eero, I want to hook it all together," and then it's done.

01:11:55   You don't have to fuss with, like, connecting them individually to each other. They're all

01:12:00   built to work that way from the start.

01:12:02   The new Eero system starts at $399 for a second-generation Eero and two Beacons, and that's everything

01:12:08   that you need to get started.

01:12:10   Listeners of this show can get free overnight shipping to the US or Canada when you go to

01:12:14   Eero.com that's E-E-R-O.com and use the promo code upgrade that is Eero.com with the promo

01:12:21   code upgrade for free overnight shipping.

01:12:24   Our thanks to Eero for their support of this show and Relay FM.

01:12:28   So we'll do some #AskUpgrade questions today comes from our first one is from Gustavo.

01:12:33   Gustavo wants to know, "What do you guys think about Apple's leather iPhone cases?"

01:12:38   What do you think Jason?

01:12:40   Do you like those?

01:12:41   Do you use those?

01:12:42   I do like them.

01:12:43   I would prefer not to use a case on my iPhone, but for the 6 and for the 10, it's just slippery

01:12:52   enough that I wanted a little more grip.

01:12:55   And I do like the Apple leather iPhone cases.

01:12:57   I think they're really nice.

01:12:58   You've got to like leather.

01:12:59   I did talk to somebody this week who uses a silicone one because they didn't like how

01:13:03   leather can discolor and it can get, you know, I like that leather is gonna age and change

01:13:10   and look, I like the look of that, but there are, you know, silicone doesn't, so you could

01:13:15   do that if you want, but I really like the leather cases and I'll remind you that Apple's

01:13:18   secret weapon here is that Apple is the only company that can make a case with an Apple

01:13:21   logo on it, which is, you know, if you want the Apple logo on your case, that's how you

01:13:26   do it. But I wish, the iPhone X is so beautiful that I wish I didn't have to use a case on

01:13:30   it because I love how it looks, but I just don't feel like I can have that. I had a dream

01:13:35   last night, Myke, that I was on a roller coaster, or it might have been a go-kart, I'm not sure.

01:13:45   And I got crashed or bumped or something, and I thought, "Wow, that was a really bad

01:13:51   bump." And then I got out at the bottom and looked at my phone and my iPhone had been

01:13:55   smashed in my pocket by the force of it.

01:13:59   And what I'm saying is I'm afraid my iPhone X

01:14:00   is going to get broken, which is why I put a case on it.

01:14:02   - That's a very good reason.

01:14:03   I agree with you for all of the reasons

01:14:05   of why you have a case, and also all of the reasons

01:14:09   you wish you didn't have to have a case.

01:14:10   Like, I agree with all of that.

01:14:12   I tried to run my iPhone X without a case

01:14:15   because I loved the look of it so much,

01:14:17   and it was still just a little bit too slippery for me.

01:14:19   And do you know what?

01:14:20   This thing costs too much money.

01:14:21   Like, it was too expensive.

01:14:23   And yes, I have AppleCare on it,

01:14:24   but I would still prefer not to have to go through that, right?

01:14:27   Like I just don't want, I don't want to break my phone and I'm happy to have a case on it

01:14:32   because my desire to not have a broken phone outweighs my desire to have a phone without a case.

01:14:38   I'm, I'm not such a fan of the leather cases.

01:14:42   I like the silicone cases, um, for two reasons.

01:14:45   I like the color range of the silicone cases more and I personally find the silicone to be more grippy,

01:14:51   which is what I'm looking for.

01:14:52   And honestly, I think this is a personal preference thing because I spoke to many people who say

01:14:57   the exact opposite, who find the leather to be more grippy.

01:15:00   I have no idea if that's anything to do with the oils in your skin.

01:15:03   I don't know.

01:15:04   I think the silicone is more grippy.

01:15:05   I actually think it's too grippy, which is why I don't like the silicone.

01:15:08   The silicone case, I have a hard time getting it in my pocket.

01:15:11   And the leather leather case, I don't.

01:15:13   So for me, it's the that's the right one for me.

01:15:15   Wayne wants some advice, Jason.

01:15:17   Wayne's first generation stainless steel Apple watch has broken.

01:15:21   Is it worth buying the Series 3 now or wait?

01:15:26   I don't have a good answer for this.

01:15:28   I'm pretty sure there will be a new Apple Watch this fall.

01:15:31   How badly do you want an Apple Watch?

01:15:32   Maybe you could get a used first or second or third generation watch or a refurb and

01:15:38   you could get a deal on something like that and then use that for a year.

01:15:42   Yeah, I would really try that.

01:15:44   You can find first gen Apple Watches being sold pretty cheap.

01:15:50   a series one or series two used or refurbed maybe the sport and not the stainless and

01:15:57   just figure you're going to use that for a year or two and then the new Apple Watch style

01:16:02   if there is one and generations will have arrived and then you can make a good decision

01:16:06   about buying one that's more or less brand new with the material that you want. This

01:16:13   is good advice I think because if the Apple Watch is something you must have every day

01:16:19   day, and considering you were coming from first gen anyway, if you can find a good deal

01:16:25   on something that is lower than a series 3, do it, because you don't know what you're

01:16:30   missing out on with the benefits of it, because you don't own it.

01:16:33   Right, and I was going to say my wife's battery on her series 0 is dying, and it's a tough

01:16:41   time to buy a new Apple Watch right now, and we're going to pay the $75 and get a new battery

01:16:46   put in it and wait and maybe she'll get a new Apple watch next year but for this

01:16:50   year I think we're just gonna we're just gonna wait and and spend $75 and get her

01:16:55   back up to speed with her Series Zero which she still likes just fine and it's

01:16:59   stainless so again buying a new stainless is that much more expensive and

01:17:02   it's a nice watch it looks great so we're gonna do that instead and I think

01:17:07   that that because it's a weird time right now if there was a brand new

01:17:10   Apple watch out right now I would consider just buying that for her but

01:17:15   But there isn't, so we're gonna defer too.

01:17:19   So yeah, maybe finding somebody's used old watch

01:17:22   that they've replaced with a Series 3

01:17:23   might get you through for, let's say,

01:17:26   year, year and a half until maybe

01:17:28   the 2019 Apple Watch models in the fall.

01:17:30   - And you never know, in three or four weeks,

01:17:32   there may be some big indications of some changes, right?

01:17:35   If they start doing stuff like,

01:17:36   hey, your app should be adaptable

01:17:38   for different screen shapes, right?

01:17:41   Then you'll know, then you'll know.

01:17:44   Jason, not Jason, different Jason, Jason too wrote in to say,

01:17:49   almost every online service I use has emailed me

01:17:52   over the last week updating their terms and privacy,

01:17:55   Twitter, eBay, Amazon, Fitbit, the list goes on and on.

01:17:59   Did something happen across the internet

01:18:01   that has necessitated this or is there another reason?

01:18:04   Jason, let me say four letters to you.

01:18:07   Those four letters are GDPR.

01:18:10   Basically in the EU there are a bunch

01:18:12   your privacy regulations. And it's all about one of the key things while you're seeing

01:18:17   this so much is companies have to update their terms and their privacy policies to account

01:18:22   for how they keep in your data and how it's used and how you can get to it.

01:18:26   But also if you're on an email mailing list, you have to basically now reconfirm in a lot

01:18:31   of businesses that you want to be on that mailing list. So a lot of companies I think

01:18:36   are using the privacy and policy updates as an excuse to email you and be like, "Hey,

01:18:43   you love these emails, right? You should click this button." So that's why you're seeing

01:18:46   so many of those.

01:18:47   Yeah, that's exactly it. And even if you're not in the EU, you need to do... Basically,

01:18:55   if you've got EU customers, you're covered by GDPR. You need to do it and you're subject

01:19:00   to their sanction if you break the rules. So, you know, anybody, any business that's

01:19:05   got people who are users in the in the EU. They have two choices. They can either do

01:19:09   the GDPR stuff, which you're seeing, or like some companies, they can say, "Sorry, we're

01:19:15   not going to have people in Europe anymore," which is usually a sign that their business

01:19:21   is built on shady uses of user data. There are examples of small businesses that maybe

01:19:32   the issues with the cost of doing business. They've got to hire a lawyer to look at their

01:19:38   statements. They worry about the fines. They don't have very many customers in Europe.

01:19:43   There are going to be some outlier cases, but mostly if you're using a service like

01:19:46   there's that service that unsubscribes you for messages that Slice Intelligence owns,

01:19:51   and what that means is that they're actually reading through all of your emails to find

01:19:54   out what you bought so that they can use that in their estimates of market share. And they

01:19:58   this service that I think they bought, they have it to datamine you. And that service

01:20:03   is no longer going to be available to people in the EU. Because in the end, that's the

01:20:07   only reason it's there, is to datamine you. And if they can't datamine you in the EU,

01:20:11   they're not going to bother. So that's a sign, I'll tell you, if you get one of those things

01:20:16   that says, "We're not going to be able to use this service anymore because Europe is

01:20:20   out." That's maybe a bad sign most of the time.

01:20:24   Joe wants to know what do we use for mousing surfaces if not a mouse pad what is your desk made of?

01:20:30   Do you use a mouse? Yeah we don't use I mean I don't think either of us use mice right? Oh Joe

01:20:35   is this was this sent in in I'm not gonna make jokes about people who use mice if you use a mouse

01:20:41   great I have not used a mouse with my computer since the 1990s folks I don't I used a trackball

01:20:49   for many many years and I use a trackpad now. So surfaces that I use where my

01:20:55   trackpad is set as my surface and that's the keyboard tray on my desk and yeah

01:21:01   that's it. I have a wooden desk I very occasionally maybe like once or twice a

01:21:06   year will use a mouse which is usually just because of some kind of injury

01:21:11   thing I don't know nope but then I just use it directly on the desk I don't have

01:21:15   a mousepad. My desk is made of wood but you know it's wood in quotes because it's really

01:21:19   like particle board with a wood fake kind of cover on it I think. Mine's like IKEA I

01:21:24   mean I have no idea I mean they could be a small family living in there. It's pressed

01:21:28   it's sawdust pressed into the shape of wood and so technically wood but it's wood like

01:21:34   a pringle is a potato chip it's sort of that kind of wood but most furniture is like that

01:21:39   these days and I think my keyboard tray is that stuff too although it might be plastic

01:21:44   I'm not sure, but my desk is that, you know, IKEA-like wood surface.

01:21:49   It's got a nice fake wood grain on it, though.

01:21:51   It's very pretty, but I don't think it's real.

01:21:52   - Here's James's question.

01:21:54   "I have mixed feelings about the idea of AR glasses.

01:21:58   It would make things like turn-by-turn directions better

01:22:00   and could potentially, in some instances, make our lives better overall.

01:22:06   But how could people wearing AR glasses affect face-to-face interactions?

01:22:12   I think significantly, and this is my reservation with this stuff.

01:22:16   Yeah, I think significantly is true. I think change will change things that will happen.

01:22:23   I think all new technology changes aspects, right? Our aspects of our interaction now

01:22:28   when we have smartphones is different and you see people using their smartphones and

01:22:31   all of that, and that changes things. Having cars change things and having public transit

01:22:36   change things. But it is true. This is a heretofore not intervened by technology, not imposed

01:22:44   over our human experience, but now imposed through technology, where you are getting

01:22:51   jokes to tell to make you seem more interesting, facts that you're looking up, data about this

01:22:56   person, even if it's as simple as like, "Oh, that's your name. I forgot who you are, but

01:23:00   now I know." All of that stuff can be in there. And it does mean, as we knew with the Google

01:23:06   glass stuff like the distraction issue where now we know you're distracted if you're looking down

01:23:11   at your phone or your watch but with a heads up display are we going to know are they going to

01:23:16   people looking at you blankly but they're actually doing something else it makes that part that much

01:23:20   harder too yeah my concern is just like the apple watch was a step right and i know that there are

01:23:28   times where like and i still get this every now and then where like i'm you know things are coming

01:23:33   in and I'm just glancing and stuff and people are like it's not the it's moved away from

01:23:38   uh oh are you checking the time if you've got to be somewhere which is what we all initially

01:23:43   thought it was going to be but now it's just like what's going on like they know it's notifications

01:23:48   like why are you checking this stuff right so that that's the thing that I see and I've been

01:23:53   privy to and it's something that I have to pay attention to if I've got something literally

01:23:58   beaming into my eyeballs, like that is very different, right? Like how is that not going

01:24:03   to distract me? Like I don't, I just don't, this is my reservation with this. Like I do genuinely

01:24:09   believe that this could be a cool product. Like whilst it was wonky in a lot of areas,

01:24:14   I always thought Google Glass was kind of cool. Like some of the stuff that it could do

01:24:18   is kind of cool, right? As somebody who primarily navigates by foot, you know,

01:24:26   having turn-by-turn directions in front of my face for walking is fantastic, right?

01:24:32   So, because like, you know, it's not like when you're in a car and you can just mount the system

01:24:35   somewhere, right? Like you're kind of walking around staring at your phone. It's, it's, it's

01:24:40   like kind of awkward, but having it like right in front of your face is great, right? Like all that

01:24:44   stuff is great. But I think one of the reasons that Google Glass ended up not working out is

01:24:49   this exact thing because you can't hide it. You're wearing those, you're wearing those and everybody

01:24:55   knows and they're gonna react to you differently. Yeah, but imagine a world where everybody's

01:24:58   got them though, right? When everybody's got them, what does that mean? But that's it though.

01:25:03   I don't know. Because this is the, my feeling Jason is this awkwardness that people feel

01:25:09   I think could be the reason that we won't all have them. So I don't know. I wonder,

01:25:15   I was thinking about things like there's somebody you don't like and so you have them, you put

01:25:19   a Snapchat filter on them where they always look like a clown or their eyes bug out or

01:25:23   or something like that.

01:25:24   I mean, where you're mocking them in your visual field,

01:25:28   even though they don't know it.

01:25:29   Like there's all sorts of bad usage of this,

01:25:32   or maybe that's good if it's a really bad person

01:25:34   and you don't want to deal with them, but you have to.

01:25:37   But it's a complete change in human interaction.

01:25:41   - Maybe if you could actually help me remember

01:25:42   people's names, 'cause I forget names at the time,

01:25:43   so that'd be nice.

01:25:44   - Yeah, but completely.

01:25:45   I think in the end, everybody will use it differently

01:25:49   because of course people are people,

01:25:50   that there will be like, people will, we will understand that there's a certain lightness

01:25:55   of an AR interface overlaid on the world when you're talking to somebody that may be, and

01:26:02   of course these things are going to be able to detect when you're talking to somebody.

01:26:05   So it may go into a mode when you're talking to somebody that you've set that reduces everything.

01:26:11   Maybe even just saying it, that everything else around them darkens so that you're focused

01:26:19   just on them, right? Like, they could do that too. There's lots of things you could do,

01:26:24   but other people will want to be like checking their email or whatever is the future email

01:26:28   that comes in AR while they're talking to somebody and just be alerted when they say

01:26:33   something interesting or have a transcript of what they've said up to then so that if

01:26:37   you didn't hear what they said you can quickly read the transcript and then respond to it.

01:26:40   I mean, all that stuff is going to be to play for and I think in the end I think we'll all

01:26:45   figure it out and it'll be okay but that doesn't necessarily mean that human interaction won't be

01:26:51   completely changed by something like that in a world where everybody's got AR in their vision

01:26:55   all the time. That's going to be a while. Like there's going to be this really ugly transition

01:26:59   phase but ultimately if that's the world then it'll yeah it'll be a really different world and

01:27:03   the way we interact with people face to face will be totally different. I mean we did all get used

01:27:08   to smartphones, right? That was a huge change because we had the entire internet available

01:27:17   to reach us. This wasn't a thing that existed before. The idea of the push notification,

01:27:23   right? When that became a thing, the push notification, someone being able to reach you

01:27:28   via any method, either personal or application from wherever you are, that was a huge change,

01:27:35   I think, in social interactions and just smartphones in general.

01:27:39   And by and large, I think we've adapted to that.

01:27:43   People have understood certain etiquettes around that.

01:27:46   And my hope would be that if these things exist, maybe there is a thing where if you're

01:27:51   sitting down to somebody with dinner, you take them off.

01:27:55   And that's just how you live your life.

01:27:57   But I don't know.

01:28:00   Then there's the other awkward problem with people like me and you who wear eyeglasses.

01:28:03   would be integrated into our eyeglasses and then what do we do? So we have a lot to work

01:28:09   out before this can become a thing. But I think if any company has the track record

01:28:17   to show that they can try and get some of this way, it's Apple, right? I believe that

01:28:22   if anyone's going to get close to doing this in a way that is conscious of the people that

01:28:27   are around you, it's probably them.

01:28:30   Yeah.

01:28:31   If you have any questions you would like to hear us answer at the end of the show, you

01:28:34   can just send out a tweet with the hashtag #AskUpgrade and we collect some out to read

01:28:38   every episode.

01:28:39   Thank you to everybody who has submitted one for this week.

01:28:42   If you want to hear us talk about literally anything at all, there's a wide range of topics

01:28:46   going to Ask Upgrade.

01:28:47   Just send out a tweet with the hashtag #AskUpgrade and we will talk about it on a future episode.

01:28:52   Yeah, and if you've got any podcasting questions, we're collecting them now because we're going

01:28:57   to pre-record a whole podcasting episode as a special episode. So in the next couple of

01:29:03   weeks, it's a great time for you to do that at #AskUpgrade.

01:29:06   If you want to find our show notes for this week, go to relay.fm/upgrades/192. That's

01:29:11   where they live on the web. But I'm hoping that the podcast app that you use should display

01:29:15   them in all of their glory to you. So you can go and read along and pull in some extra

01:29:20   information based upon the stuff that we've spoken about. There's a lot of great stuff

01:29:23   in there today, including all of Jason's weird Amazon links for 3D accessories.

01:29:29   They're all in there.

01:29:30   2D.

01:29:30   3D, 2D, 4D maybe even.

01:29:32   But it is a secret one.

01:29:33   Who knows?

01:29:34   If you want to find Jason online, he is over at sixcolors.com and the

01:29:38   incomparable.com.

01:29:39   He is @jasonel on Twitter, J S N E double L.

01:29:42   I am @imike, I M Y K E.

01:29:44   This show is a part of Relay FM.

01:29:46   Both me and Jason host many wonderful shows at Relay FM.

01:29:49   Just go to relay.fm/shows to find more there.

01:29:53   I want to thank StoryWorth, Simple Contacts and Eero for their support of this show.

01:29:58   And we'll be back next week. Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:30:02   Y'all come back now, you hear?

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