188: An Elephant on the Bridge


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, Episode 188. Today's show is brought to you by Linode,

00:00:14   Pingdom and Slack. My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Mr. Jason Snell. Hello, Jason Snell.

00:00:19   Hello Myke Hurley, how are you?

00:00:21   I am very well. We have a #SnellTalk question this week from listen to Brian. Brian wants to know,

00:00:27   So Jason, why do you keep your iPhone in the kitchen, as you mentioned you leave it there

00:00:32   for Qi charging, when you sleep in the bedroom?

00:00:35   Why is your iPhone not in the bedroom with you?

00:00:38   I could turn this around and say why would I bring my phone into the bedroom?

00:00:44   So many reasons, so many reasons.

00:00:46   Alarms.

00:00:47   No.

00:00:48   Emergency telephone calls.

00:00:49   There are so many reasons.

00:00:51   Alarms.

00:00:52   I use my Apple Watch when I have an alarm set.

00:00:56   I don't use the phone because I find the Apple Watch a better alarm device.

00:01:03   Late night phone calls, emergency phone calls, well, that is a worldview that I'm going to

00:01:07   leave my phone right next to my ear in case somebody who actually is supposed to call.

00:01:13   I've got "do not disturb" on, quite frankly, so that emergency phone call is not making

00:01:17   it through.

00:01:18   Right, but it's like emergency phone calls from a family member and you have the "do

00:01:22   not disturb" thing set in such a way, right, that it's like multiple calls within a certain

00:01:26   period of time. Well, okay, okay, so my house is not that big. It's all on one level. Okay.

00:01:33   You've been in my, you've been in my house. My house is not that big. I can hear my phone.

00:01:37   If something breaks through "do not disturb," I can hear it just fine from where I, where

00:01:43   I am. It's never happened. And I have my iPad that I keep by the side of my bed. So that's

00:01:51   - That's what you do, you're like late night tweeting,

00:01:54   you're using the iPad.

00:01:55   - It's all on the iPad.

00:01:56   Late night, early in the morning, whatever.

00:01:57   Yeah, it's on the iPad.

00:01:58   So I don't need an iPhone there too.

00:01:59   - So it's not that you are like,

00:02:01   you are not one of these people who is adverse

00:02:03   to having devices in the bedroom,

00:02:05   you just have a different device in the bedroom, right?

00:02:07   - Yeah, the phone, I have no need of the phone

00:02:10   in the bedroom at night,

00:02:13   because the iPad is my information source there

00:02:16   and in the morning.

00:02:17   So the phone, I have no need for that.

00:02:20   And I get why people do it and why there are those,

00:02:23   like this originates with that, like having that charger

00:02:26   that charges your Apple Watch and your phone together.

00:02:28   I'm like, nope, not interested.

00:02:31   And I would say also my wife is the same way.

00:02:35   We have his and hers Qi chargers, aw, out in the front.

00:02:40   And then we have iPads in the back

00:02:43   and that's what we use.

00:02:45   So it works for me.

00:02:46   I don't see any real value.

00:02:49   I think also technically if the phone rang,

00:02:52   my phone, my iPad would ring too.

00:02:54   - Wouldn't your watch ring?

00:02:55   - It might.

00:02:56   My admission here is that I don't actually have,

00:03:00   I have the sound turned off on all of my devices basically.

00:03:04   So I never hear them chime when they do chime.

00:03:08   I feel the Apple Watch buzz when I'm wearing it.

00:03:11   And that's about it.

00:03:12   I don't have any sounds on almost ever.

00:03:16   I have a lot of really cute ringtones

00:03:18   and you never hear them because I just never have them on.

00:03:22   - So I am like phone, do not disturb 24/7 a day, right?

00:03:26   Including my iPads, all my devices are on do not disturb

00:03:29   because the notifications come through to my Apple Watch.

00:03:31   But I have it set up that if something breaks through

00:03:34   do not disturb, it will make the phone ring audibly.

00:03:39   - Yeah, I think that's a setting and that's fine.

00:03:42   - That's how I have mine set up.

00:03:43   - But I don't, that's yeah.

00:03:47   So there you go, that's why.

00:03:48   I expect that Brian asked this question

00:03:51   thinking that you might be a like, you know,

00:03:53   no devices in the bedroom type person.

00:03:56   Which I'm pleased, I mean,

00:03:57   'cause I don't really subscribe to it.

00:03:59   I think it's fine to have these things in the bedroom.

00:04:01   So I was pleased to hear that, you know,

00:04:02   your phone isn't there

00:04:03   'cause you have another device for it.

00:04:05   So I think that that is, that's good.

00:04:06   - Also the phone just sort of lives out.

00:04:08   It would require me to take the phone

00:04:10   from where it spends most of its time,

00:04:12   which is on the counter in the kitchen.

00:04:14   And at the end of the night say,

00:04:15   "All right, little phone, I'm gonna talk to you

00:04:17   - You know, you take yourself to the room, right?

00:04:21   - Yeah, but the phone, like the phone just is laying,

00:04:23   unless it's in my pocket,

00:04:24   the phone is laying on that Qi charger.

00:04:27   And before that it was laying on that counter

00:04:28   with a plug in it.

00:04:30   It doesn't need to be relocated at the end of the night.

00:04:32   Whereas the iPad does float around the house with me.

00:04:36   And so it's just, it's all of a kind, right?

00:04:38   Like this is the role that the iPhone plays in my life,

00:04:43   which is it's only really with me

00:04:45   when I'm going somewhere or I need it for some reason.

00:04:50   Otherwise it's generally on its charger.

00:04:52   And the iPad is the device that I use

00:04:55   when I'm in the house roaming around.

00:04:57   The phone is not generally.

00:04:59   So it's all part of that same kind of approach

00:05:03   to those devices that one of them,

00:05:05   the iPad's role is expansive

00:05:07   and the iPhone's role is really limited in the house.

00:05:10   - If you would like to suggest a question

00:05:12   for us to open the show,

00:05:13   just send out a tweet into the into the world into the ether with the hashtag

00:05:17   SnellTalk and it may be picked for a future episode. Thank you to Brian for

00:05:21   the submission. iOS 11.4 was during last week's episode the beta one was

00:05:28   released and we were talking in the episode about the fact that messages in

00:05:33   the cloud and a home pod stereo support of Airplay 2 was missing from 11.3

00:05:38   according to 9to5Mac the 11.4 beta does again include messages in the

00:05:43   cloud and HomePod stereo support, but there is a catch. To use HomePod stereo support,

00:05:49   you have to be able to update to beta firmware on your HomePod, which is not available right

00:05:54   now. So no one can test it, but it is referenced in the iOS release. So it's there.

00:06:02   Interesting.

00:06:03   But yeah.

00:06:04   I guess unless you need to test HomePod things and are granted access to the HomePod beta

00:06:10   firmware you don't get to test. I would love that. I would love if a future beta, that

00:06:14   would be enough for me to update to a beta, is if the beta included or they released beta

00:06:20   firmware so that we could try out the AirPlay 2 and stereo support. That would be really

00:06:25   fun.

00:06:26   But nothing yet, but there you go. It's back in again. Eleven point four. All these features

00:06:31   are back in again. Maybe we'll see them soon.

00:06:34   The testing continues.

00:06:37   large scale testing on this. Today, April 9th, Apple released a press release in the

00:06:42   morning. It was rumored last night because of a leak from Virgin Mobile that Apple is

00:06:49   introducing an iPhone 8 and 8 Plus product red special edition. It goes on sale tomorrow

00:06:57   I believe and is available like you can pre-order and will be and is available on Friday April

00:07:04   13th to purchase.

00:07:08   You may remember this from I think this was last year with the seven that you could get

00:07:13   a product read version of the phone had a white face and a red back and some of the

00:07:18   proceeds of the sales go to to help fight the AIDS right into to fund AIDS research

00:07:26   and stuff like that. But this time, what everybody wanted last time, or what loads of people

00:07:30   wanted last time has been given to us this time. The phone now has a black front and

00:07:35   a red back. I personally like the look of that a lot more. It was interesting to me

00:07:41   that this is just the 8 and the 8 Plus. I was expecting, honestly, the X to have this.

00:07:47   I think that would be really cool looking. Who knows, maybe some point in the future.

00:07:51   the X back is stainless, right? I don't think they can do a red stainless.

00:07:56   No, the back isn't stainless. The sides are stainless.

00:07:59   Oh, you're right. The sides are stainless. The back is not.

00:08:02   The back is just colored glass. It's black or white.

00:08:05   They must have looked and said, "No, this doesn't." Then again, they did that red-white

00:08:08   phone which is not pretty. It's the – I find it funny that so many people are like,

00:08:17   finally they did the black front and not the white front with the red because they didn't

00:08:21   like that. It's like this is such a weird product because it comes out midstream which

00:08:25   means anybody who's really excited about the iPhone 8 already bought it.

00:08:28   Geoff - Yeah. I don't know who buys this but some people will.

00:08:31   Tim - They will sell some. It looks great. I wish they would just release them at the

00:08:34   time because I think that would make they would sell a lot of them that way. I do not

00:08:40   have strong opinions about the design of either of those models but I will say this which

00:08:44   is Blackfront. I'm just a big fan of the Blackfront in general. It should be, you know, that's

00:08:51   the one to get, the Blackfront. So I'm glad that this one also has the Blackfront now.

00:08:55   You know, no iPhone X though, although they did have a case. I guess there's a red leather

00:08:59   folio case now for the X. Still no sign of AirPower. I was expecting

00:09:05   AirPower today when this seemed like there was going to be another press release. Who

00:09:09   knows maybe maybe it will come with 11.4 who knows right everything everything

00:09:14   comes with the next version of iOS maybe AirPower will get that then but still no

00:09:19   sign Jason you had for review and you posted a review on six colors of the

00:09:25   2018 iPad the new regular 9.7 inch iPad with Apple pencil support so that is

00:09:33   available and you made an interesting comparison with this iPad and automobiles. Would you

00:09:40   like to explain a little bit about that? What your kind of takeaway is of the iPad?

00:09:47   I'm surprised I have not heard from more people who are really into cars about how I dared

00:09:51   to use an automobile metaphor for the iPad.

00:09:56   Maybe you just nailed it, right? Like everyone's like, "Oh yeah, he totally got it."

00:10:01   - Well, so I have a Honda Civic

00:10:04   and before I had the Honda Civic,

00:10:05   I had a different Honda Civic.

00:10:07   And that is the Honda's, you know,

00:10:10   it's a solid, relatively cheap car.

00:10:15   And my point in saying that the iPad is like the Honda Civic

00:10:20   is to say, the way I try to frame this story is,

00:10:24   how do you talk about this iPad?

00:10:25   This iPad is not as good on lots and lots of fronts

00:10:29   as the iPad Pro on lots of different fronts.

00:10:34   And presumably there will be new iPad Pros

00:10:36   at some point in the next few months

00:10:38   and that gap will widen even further.

00:10:40   But the iPad is almost half the cost of the 10.5 iPad Pro.

00:10:45   So I tried to liken it to cars

00:10:52   where there are some people who want to spend

00:10:55   a lot of money to get the very best car.

00:10:59   it has nice features, it's got a lot of amenities, you do it because you want the very best that

00:11:06   there is, you do it because you have the money, you do it because you like the lifestyle of

00:11:12   being somebody who's got cutting edge technology. I feel like drawing a parallel between that

00:11:18   and people who buy luxury cars, or lease luxury cars or whatever, seemed like a fit to me

00:11:24   that, and I'm not saying that luxury car people are iPad Pro people, it's like what your priorities

00:11:29   is your priority cars, is your priority iPads. iPads are a lot cheaper to have that priority

00:11:33   on than cars, let me tell you. And I made the point that like I'm just not, when it

00:11:39   comes to cars, I'm not one of those people. When it comes to cars, I look for value and

00:11:43   I don't need the cutting edge. And that is what the iPad said to me is, this is a product

00:11:50   that is faster than the iPad Pros that were released in 2015 and 2016, the first generation

00:11:56   and iPad Pro models. It's faster than those. And it costs a fraction of what they cost.

00:12:05   And so what you're doing is you're saving half the price in giving up a couple of years

00:12:09   on the cutting edge. And it's not for everybody. And I would wager it's not for a lot of the

00:12:16   people who listen to podcasts like this and read websites like mine, because the people

00:12:20   who are very enthusiastic about technology, just as I would wager that the people who

00:12:28   are reading all of the articles about the highest quality, high test, super expensive

00:12:33   cars are probably not driving a 2005 Honda Civic. Although some of them are because the

00:12:41   other part of this is just money. You can love them but not have the money to buy them.

00:12:45   And so it's where you, whether you have any money at all to spend or whether you have

00:12:50   money to spend on some things and you prioritize other things to spend your money on. But either

00:12:55   way, it comes back to the fact that this is a really great value as an iPad. It's impressive

00:13:01   how powerful it is. It's got the A10 processor in it and that does make it faster than the

00:13:11   processors that were in those first generation iPad Pros. The current iPad Pros blow it away,

00:13:14   But again, they're twice the price, more or less.

00:13:17   So it's a really nice iPad.

00:13:21   And if you don't care about, and the review has a litany of things that it doesn't have

00:13:28   that are in the iPad Pro, but it's like, you don't care about the quality of the cameras.

00:13:33   If you don't care about the wider color gamut and true tone and like...

00:13:39   - 120 hertz refresh rate, that kind of stuff.

00:13:41   I mean, it's all these things that are really nice features, but if you're looking at the price tag,

00:13:47   and then you're looking at the price tag of this thing, and you say, "I don't really need all those

00:13:51   features." Yeah, everything with the screen, they're like, luxury nice-to-haves. None of the

00:13:56   things that are in the iPad Pro screen that are not in the regular iPad screen actually add anything

00:14:02   of real, like, productive value. They're all just like, "Oh, well, this is just much nicer."

00:14:09   right? And a lot of that, like even the processors, which is like, well, there isn't really iPad

00:14:15   software that you get a ton of advantage out of having the fastest processor. Things just

00:14:22   happen quicker. It's just more capable. Yeah, there are, yeah, something I mentioned is that

00:14:27   I don't think that there are lots of people who are using iPad apps and waiting because the

00:14:31   the processor is just not fast enough.

00:14:35   There are examples, and like I was thinking

00:14:39   in something like Ferrite, which I use to edit,

00:14:41   and I've got plugins turned on to process the audio,

00:14:44   and then I export the audio at the end.

00:14:46   I would imagine an audio export

00:14:48   of a multi-track Ferrite project on the iPad

00:14:51   would be a lot slower than on the iPad Pro, is my guess.

00:14:54   Might be wrong, I don't know,

00:14:56   but my guess is that it would be a lot slower

00:14:58   because the processor is a lot slower

00:15:00   than on the current iPad Pro. But again, that's an edge case. And if you're somebody who cares

00:15:06   about that, you probably know it and you would probably make a different buying decision.

00:15:09   If you're doing that level of power, perhaps if you've got the -- that might make you prioritize

00:15:15   that more expensive iPad. Although, it'll still work on the iPad. That's the thing.

00:15:19   It just would be a little bit slower. But I think it's less of a big deal. And yeah,

00:15:23   so you wrap that all in and you end up with a product that is -- it's pretty great. Like,

00:15:27   For a price that Apple didn't use to sell iPads at all, let's remember, before last

00:15:31   year, it's pretty great, $329 for an iPad that is two years away from being cutting

00:15:40   edge but still incredibly capable with a bunch of features.

00:15:44   The other Honda Civic thing I mentioned is when I bought my first car I ever bought new

00:15:48   was a Honda Civic in 1993.

00:15:52   And I had just gotten a job and my wife had just gotten a job and we weren't even married

00:15:56   was before we were married, and my car died. And we bought a Honda Civic. And we didn't

00:16:02   have a lot of money, so we couldn't buy any of the fancy features they had. The car didn't

00:16:10   have a clock, Myke. They're like, "Oh, that'll be another $100 for the clock." And we're

00:16:15   like, "$100 for a clock? That's outrageous!" And then, for a stupid little clock, and then

00:16:19   we spent the next 15 years driving that car without a clock, thinking, "This is the dumbest

00:16:24   thing ever, why did we not pay a hundred dollars for a clock? But there was one

00:16:28   feature of the windows. We had to crank the windows, there were no power windows on

00:16:32   that car. We just had to use a plastic handle to crank the windows up and down.

00:16:35   The one feature we spent on, because we lived in a hot part of the Bay Area, was

00:16:41   air conditioning. And I was thinking about that with the Apple Pencil, which

00:16:45   is sometimes—and again you don't get to choose your features in the iPad, they

00:16:49   are what they are—but the Apple Pencil is like the frill that now comes with

00:16:53   with the budget product.

00:16:55   And I think it's the right frill to bring down there

00:16:59   because there's so much potential for people.

00:17:02   Like I gave the iPad to my son with an Apple Pencil

00:17:06   for him to try out and he took to it easily

00:17:09   and he's never had an iPad with an Apple Pencil.

00:17:12   And I think that's a great decision by Apple,

00:17:14   not just for education, but in general,

00:17:16   to let the Apple Pencil be part of the whole iPad story now,

00:17:20   which is, that's the story of car technology too,

00:17:23   where all the cool tech starts off in the luxury cars

00:17:26   and then eventually it comes down to everywhere.

00:17:28   It's hard to find a car that,

00:17:31   I'm not sure they make cars anymore

00:17:33   where you have to crank the windows up and down, right?

00:17:34   Like that may just be over,

00:17:37   but there was a time when that was a fancy feature.

00:17:39   And then over time, they just, you know, the auto,

00:17:43   all cars I think have to have backup cameras now in the US.

00:17:45   So now, you know, I've got a car with a backup camera,

00:17:49   but that used to be a fancy feature.

00:17:51   Eventually some of these smart cruise control

00:17:53   and automatic parking and stuff that are luxury things are getting, those are getting pushed

00:17:57   down into cars. Anyway, the Apple Pencil is now that. It's like the power windows. The

00:18:02   Apple Pencil is just, every iPad from now on is probably going to have Apple Pencil

00:18:05   support. It's great. And other things may come. The only bummer, I would say, is it's

00:18:10   a bummer that this thing doesn't do smart connector if only because I think that the

00:18:16   9.7 iPad Pro with that Logitech Create keyboard that uses the smart connector was a really

00:18:21   great combo as a compact writing machine and for this thing you're going to need to use

00:18:26   a Bluetooth keyboard but there will be cases, there are probably already cases that abound

00:18:32   that are Bluetooth based and will let you use it as a little typing machine.

00:18:38   So put a link in the show notes to Jason's review if you want to read more but it's a

00:18:42   great little machine that iPad. It's a good little computer.

00:18:46   Yeah.

00:18:47   Alright today's show is brought to you by a new sponsor which I'm very excited about

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00:19:42   We have been using Slack since before day one of Relay FM and I can't even comprehend

00:19:50   the thousands of emails that I have not had to send and receive because of Slack.

00:19:56   Because all of this type of communication, this business communication, has to happen

00:20:00   somewhere.

00:20:01   And having it all happen within its own little app, all within Slack, is so much nicer than

00:20:07   and having all of these communications also interwoven with all of the other types of

00:20:12   email that I get, it's a horrible mess.

00:20:15   And then being so easily searchable, so like if I, this happens to me quite a lot, so like

00:20:20   maybe me and Jason are planning out something scheduling wise and I forget something, I

00:20:25   can just type in a couple of keywords and I can search through our previous chat history

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00:20:51   I had somebody ask me the other day about if I feel lonely as somebody who works at

00:20:55   home by myself. And I actually said these words, which is, "Well, no, because I have

00:21:00   Slack. And the people I work with, we're all in Slack together. And that is our collaborative

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00:21:27   That's good. Sorry, I didn't hear all that ad. I was responding to something in Slack.

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00:21:32   It's true. It's nice to have a product you use as a sponsor. It's great. We have

00:21:37   some more of those in this episode, which is also great.

00:21:40   Apple invited Matthew Panzareno from TechCrunch to take a look at what they're doing to

00:21:45   address the pro market. So this was reminiscent of the Roundtable event.

00:21:52   Yeah. What if they had a Roundtable with no table and only Matthew Panzareno? That's

00:21:56   basically what happened. It's the one year later, there's a, there looks like no Phil

00:22:01   Schiller and nobody but Panzer there. But it is the follow-up to the roundtable that

00:22:09   we got last year where they said, "We are going to do a Mac Pro after all. It won't

00:22:14   happen this year, but it will happen after that." Key point.

00:22:19   And now we know, again, not this year, but we'll get to that in a moment because there

00:22:24   are a few things that we should set up first. So this is, even though it was interesting,

00:22:30   Interesting, right? They only invited one journalist. It's still another indication of

00:22:34   Apple believing that it is very important for them to show that they are serious about providing

00:22:41   solutions for pro users of their platform. So one thing that they spoke about this time, which has

00:22:48   happened in the kind of the intervening time from the last round table to now, is the establishment

00:22:54   of the Pro Workflow team. This is nothing to do with the Workflow app. This is Workflow

00:23:02   in the sense of the flow of your work. John Turnus, the VP of hardware engineering at

00:23:08   Apple, amassed this group of pro users to help him understand what Apple needed to do.

00:23:14   So what they did is they started with observing some people, talking to some creative professionals

00:23:19   and trying to understand, you know, like in an environment where someone's asking you

00:23:23   a bunch of questions, how much information can you get? Apple believed that wasn't

00:23:27   enough. Just like asking some people questions in the abstract is not enough because what

00:23:32   you need to understand is on a day to day basis, what are people being frustrated about?

00:23:38   Because if you're going to go to Apple Park and sitting in a room, you might not remember

00:23:42   that like three days ago you were clicking this button over and over and over again and

00:23:46   nothing was happening. Right? Like these are the things that you kind of forget about but

00:23:50   are really important. So they decided that they would start hiring people to work directly for

00:23:56   Apple who are experts in creative fields. So that Apple are focusing on visual effects animators,

00:24:03   video editors, 3D animators and music producers. These people now all work for Apple as part of

00:24:10   the Pro Workflow team on real projects. They're making videos, they're making music, which I

00:24:15   expect Apple using somewhere.

00:24:42   Apple have said that this team is helping them shape what the Mac Pro is going to look

00:24:47   like. They mentioned modular system again a bunch of times. So that is all but confirmed

00:24:52   that the Mac Pro will be modular, whatever modular ends up meaning. And also as well,

00:24:58   they did underscore that this team is helping inform the MacBook Pros and iMacs too. This

00:25:03   is only about the Mac Pro. Jason, what is your take on the creation of this Pro workflow

00:25:09   team.

00:25:10   It's kind of weird. I think it's… I appreciate the idea that Apple perhaps responding to

00:25:21   what happened with the Trashcan Mac Pro where it realizes that it made some decisions that

00:25:28   didn't actually fit what its customers wanted, that it's trying to understand its customers

00:25:32   better.

00:25:33   They made a bunch of assumptions as to what professionals needed and then a bunch of creative

00:25:37   professionals told them, you got this wrong, right?

00:25:40   - Yeah, so I appreciate that.

00:25:42   I find it weird the idea, and again,

00:25:44   I don't know how much of this is that it was

00:25:46   a surprising thing and Panzer focused on it

00:25:48   because it was surprising,

00:25:50   or that they thought it was a cool thing

00:25:52   and so they wanted to highlight it.

00:25:53   But the idea that they've brought people in on contract

00:25:58   to sit in the group with the pro development team

00:26:01   and do like their work while they're being observed,

00:26:05   I find that strange because those aren't real projects.

00:26:09   They're, I mean, they're probably not real projects

00:26:13   or if they are, I don't, it just seems very strange

00:26:16   that, and not necessarily reflective

00:26:20   of what their actual jobs are.

00:26:22   Like, wouldn't it be better to just send Apple people

00:26:26   in the field to spend weeks watching them,

00:26:30   a record producer producing an album

00:26:33   on Apple hardware and software in their own space,

00:26:36   like a real job and the same for, you know,

00:26:39   name the field, visual effects industry, you know,

00:26:42   video editing, all of these things.

00:26:44   Wouldn't that be more cost-effective than having them be,

00:26:47   you know, brought into Apple and working on

00:26:51   presumably demo projects?

00:26:53   It seems, I mean, I guess there are reasons, right?

00:26:55   'Cause otherwise they wouldn't do it,

00:26:57   but it just, it strikes me like the moment that you're

00:27:02   inside Apple working on real projects,

00:27:05   but you're inside Apple,

00:27:06   I start to wonder at what point does that become artificial

00:27:10   and you're no longer, you know,

00:27:11   you're affecting what's happening.

00:27:14   At the same time, I think I can understand the idea that

00:27:19   if you were working on this stuff and Apple's like,

00:27:22   "Well, why did you do that?

00:27:23   What about this?

00:27:24   Can you go back and show us that?"

00:27:26   And you're working on this stuff every day.

00:27:27   You're like, "No, I need to do my job."

00:27:30   And that might lead to somebody saying,

00:27:32   well, what if we pay you to do a project for us

00:27:37   that we can stop you at any point and say,

00:27:40   well, what about this?

00:27:41   Well, what about that?

00:27:42   So it's probably not their only data point,

00:27:43   but it's something that's new and interesting.

00:27:45   The point of it, I think, in terms of messaging

00:27:47   was just to communicate to pro users

00:27:49   that they're really trying to understand

00:27:52   how pros use their stuff

00:27:54   and have a direct line of conversation

00:27:56   between the pro users who are using the stuff

00:27:59   and the people who are building the pro hardware

00:28:01   and the pro software for that matter.

00:28:02   So I like that because that's showing that,

00:28:06   they're really trying to show that they're paying attention

00:28:08   and that they care and they wanna learn about this.

00:28:10   It just, I think there is probably some missing context here

00:28:14   that would have been helpful for me.

00:28:16   But I think it's a cool idea and I just,

00:28:19   the larger point is, yeah,

00:28:20   this is another example of Apple trying to show,

00:28:23   it's almost like penance for what they,

00:28:28   for not listening to their customers for a while.

00:28:31   - So Tom Boger, Senior Director

00:28:35   of Mac Hardware Product Marketing had the following to say.

00:28:39   We want to be transparent and communicate openly

00:28:43   with our pro community.

00:28:44   So we want them to know that the Mac Pro is a 2019 product.

00:28:49   It is not something for this year.

00:28:52   We know that there's a lot of customers

00:28:54   that are making purchase decisions on the iMac Pro

00:28:57   and whether or not they should wait for the Mac Pro.

00:29:00   So they have come out and said, 2019.

00:29:03   And I like the thinking behind this,

00:29:05   whether like, we know there are people

00:29:07   that could probably do with an iMac Pro

00:29:11   for the next year and a half,

00:29:13   but they're not buying it

00:29:15   because they wanna see if the Mac Pro's coming.

00:29:18   Well, now you know it's not, right?

00:29:20   Like if you were thinking to yourself,

00:29:21   oh, I really need to upgrade,

00:29:24   but I can't do it just yet

00:29:27   because, oh, you know, I believe,

00:29:30   I don't wanna spend all this money

00:29:31   and then regret it in two months time.

00:29:34   - So I think one aspect of this announcement

00:29:37   and the first thing that came to mind

00:29:38   when I saw this story was,

00:29:41   this is Apple saying, no, no, no,

00:29:42   you should just go ahead and buy the iMac Pro.

00:29:44   - Yeah, which I think is fine.

00:29:47   - Don't wait for 2020 or whenever 2019, sorry.

00:29:50   They did say it will ship in 2019, the new Mac Pro.

00:29:53   But this is Apple saying, it's gonna be a while.

00:29:56   don't wait this year for the Mac Pro, just buy the iMac Pro.

00:30:00   Just go ahead and do it because it's gonna be a while

00:30:03   for this thing.

00:30:04   And that's not their only message here,

00:30:06   but that's part of the message.

00:30:07   That's absolutely part of the message is,

00:30:09   here's what we're doing, it's gonna be a while.

00:30:13   If you're planning your purchasing decisions

00:30:15   and you're trying to hold out for another year, don't do it.

00:30:18   - So I think one of the things that a lot of people

00:30:22   were kind of holding onto was the idea

00:30:25   that the Mac Pro was definitely a 2018 product.

00:30:29   But Apple never gave a date, did they?

00:30:33   They never said anything about a date before.

00:30:35   - No, they said it won't be this year.

00:30:37   - And I think everyone just assumed,

00:30:40   well, if you don't mean this year,

00:30:41   you definitely mean next year.

00:30:43   I think that was just a thing,

00:30:45   and then it's one of these things that gets perpetuated.

00:30:48   - Not everybody.

00:30:48   I think we all hoped it would be this year,

00:30:51   but I remember very clearly writing and saying

00:30:55   at several points, and I know that like the ATP guys did

00:30:58   and all that, like they didn't say it would ship in 2018.

00:31:02   They did not say that.

00:31:03   They said it won't ship in 2017.

00:31:06   That's all they said.

00:31:08   And that was always hanging out there.

00:31:10   Like they didn't say it would ship in 2018.

00:31:13   Now, oh boy, wouldn't that be something

00:31:15   if it didn't ship until 2019.

00:31:17   And guess what?

00:31:22   They didn't commit to shipping in 2018 for a reason,

00:31:25   because it's not going to, but it is gonna ship in 2019.

00:31:28   They did commit, Pansarino did get that out of them,

00:31:31   that their plan is for it to ship next year.

00:31:34   - That is, it's risky though to give a date, isn't it?

00:31:37   - Well, that far in advance, I think that's the thing

00:31:40   is that the message from the round table last year

00:31:42   was like, we're just starting on this process

00:31:43   and we don't know how it's gonna go.

00:31:45   Now there's a lot of people out there who are saying,

00:31:46   well, why don't you just ship something?

00:31:49   Why are you taking this long?

00:31:51   And I think part of it is that this is how long it takes

00:31:53   for Apple to develop products.

00:31:55   They're developing these things in advance.

00:31:56   They didn't plan on doing a Mac Pro, right?

00:31:58   It wasn't a plan like, okay, the iMac Pro is gonna come out

00:32:01   and then the Mac Pro is gonna come out.

00:32:02   Like the iMac Pro was the replacement for the Mac Pro

00:32:05   and they weren't gonna do a Mac Pro anymore.

00:32:06   That was the deal.

00:32:08   And then they changed their mind

00:32:10   and they had to start a Mac Pro design process from scratch.

00:32:15   Now you could argue, I think it's a reasonable argument

00:32:18   that that market is so desperate for a product

00:32:23   that perhaps a faster development cycle

00:32:28   that generated something that was not super mind blowing

00:32:31   or anything, but was a box that ran Mac OS

00:32:35   and had high-end features and was modular like a box

00:32:40   would have made a lot of people happy.

00:32:42   But you know, it's Apple, they don't do that.

00:32:44   They're not gonna put out,

00:32:45   they're not gonna get the cheese grater out of mothballs.

00:32:48   and do a new Mac Pro cheese grater

00:32:50   to hold you over for two years.

00:32:52   They're not gonna do that.

00:32:54   And we can see with the iMac Pro,

00:32:56   like what's the iMac Pro?

00:32:58   It's not just a Xeon iMac.

00:33:00   It's got like the T2 ARM processor

00:33:03   and this whole other like boot sequence and-

00:33:05   - And it's black.

00:33:06   - Well, yeah.

00:33:07   And it's space gray, of course you've got to do it.

00:33:10   So Apple, like this is just, this is Apple.

00:33:14   Apple doesn't want to make a generic box.

00:33:16   Apple wants to make something that is pushing the Mac platform forward in some way and that's

00:33:22   really interesting when we get to the other hot topic of the last week about the future

00:33:26   of the Mac, but it's, yeah, I mean, I can see both sides of it. I understand the frustration

00:33:32   of people who just want a new Mac Pro and cannot believe that it's gonna be a couple

00:33:38   years from when Apple says they're gonna do it before they ship something, but at the

00:33:42   same time it was a new addition to Apple's product roadmap that came. It was unlikely

00:33:48   that anything was going to ship soon and it's hard to, it's like the the scorpion and the

00:33:55   frog, right? Like I can't help it, it's my nature as the scorpion stings the frog and

00:33:59   they both drown. It's, this is like that, it's like it's Apple's nature. I don't think

00:34:03   you can legitimately, asking Apple to just ship a beige box full of Mac Pro parts is not,

00:34:12   is asking Apple to not be itself.

00:34:14   - It is unrealistic.

00:34:15   It is an unrealistic expectation to assume

00:34:17   that they would ever do that.

00:34:18   Like, this is not gonna happen.

00:34:20   - No, 'cause it's Apple.

00:34:21   And you can say, and again,

00:34:23   so then your argument is Apple should not be Apple.

00:34:25   It's like, okay, you can make that argument, but guess what?

00:34:28   Apple is Apple.

00:34:30   - Why are you here then?

00:34:31   - Yeah, well, that, exactly right.

00:34:34   Like, that's exactly it.

00:34:36   And meanwhile, the iMac Pro is an excellent option.

00:34:40   And I get that it's not a great option for everybody,

00:34:43   but it is an excellent option in the interim.

00:34:47   - So they've obviously decided to talk about this now

00:34:52   because they're not gonna bring anything out

00:34:55   on stage at WWDC, right?

00:34:57   Like that's probably why they've decided to do this now,

00:34:59   just to like make sure they're getting ahead of that.

00:35:03   - Yeah, this is actually, it's funny,

00:35:06   this is the exact same strategy as last year, I think,

00:35:09   where the last thing Apple wants is to have WWDC

00:35:14   become a story about Apple not caring about pros,

00:35:17   especially since developers are the most important,

00:35:20   in many ways, segment of pros in Apple's product,

00:35:23   you know, line of customers,

00:35:25   because they're making apps for everybody else.

00:35:28   So the last thing they want is for WWDC

00:35:32   to be the place where they give bad news and say,

00:35:36   you know, we're not gonna ship,

00:35:37   let's talk about the Mac Pro

00:35:38   that you guys want that we haven't given you in a very long time." Like, they don't even

00:35:42   want to have that conversation.

00:35:43   It's like two things. We have nothing to show you today and it's not coming this year.

00:35:47   Yeah, exactly. So last year they said, "Oh well, we do care about you," which would have

00:35:52   been a positive thing, but the thing that we're going to show that we care about you

00:35:56   with is not coming anytime soon. And then this year it would have been like, you know,

00:36:03   is today Mac Pro Day? Maybe they'll announce the Mac Pro at WWDC. And by doing this they're

00:36:08   saying no we won't don't get your hopes up no it's gonna be next year and that

00:36:12   totally changes the the it's funny too because this might have been the kind of

00:36:17   story that they leaked in the past right this might have been the kind of story

00:36:20   where two weeks before WWDC they leaked something that said the Mac Pro is not

00:36:24   coming until 2019 don't get your hopes up just because they want to set

00:36:28   expectations but today's Apple has some different strategies like inviting

00:36:32   Panzer over to Cupertino to talk about it and write a story that we all then

00:36:37   talk about that disseminates the information that it's not going to happen until 2019.

00:36:41   But either way, it is, I would argue, maybe the most important thing it does is take that

00:36:46   conversation off the table for WWDC. Not that people at WWDC aren't going to be grousing

00:36:51   about it, but it's a done deal. It's a little bit like the headphone jack thing. It's like,

00:36:57   by the time we get there, everybody's going to have talked themselves out of it. By the

00:37:00   time the iPhone 7 shipped without the headphone jack, we had talked about it for 10 months.

00:37:05   we were you know people were still grumpy about it but like the outrage had faded and

00:37:10   the same is going to go with this like by the time we get to San Jose we will already

00:37:15   have processed and gone through all the stages of grief about the 2018 Mac Pro theory that

00:37:21   is dead and we will have moved on and that's why you do it that's like the number one reason

00:37:26   you do it.

00:37:27   I guess like last year they knew that they had a cool video about the iMac Pro to show

00:37:32   But if they didn't reference the Mac Pro before that, everyone's going to be like, "Okay,

00:37:36   but where's the Mac Pro?"

00:37:38   So they didn't want to ruin, they didn't rain on the iMac Pro's parade, so they did the

00:37:43   whole thing beforehand where they were like, "We have this thing coming, it's called the

00:37:46   iMac Pro.

00:37:47   By the way, we've also decided we're going to do a Mac Pro, but you're not going to hear

00:37:50   about that this year."

00:37:51   Yeah.

00:37:52   Right?

00:37:53   It probably allows them to stand on stage, "We'll see how we draft this at WWDC," and

00:37:57   say, "Of course we ship the iMac Pro, which is the most powerful Mac we've ever shipped

00:38:02   and you guys love it and everybody loves it and it's great." And of course there will

00:38:06   be a Mac Pro next year too, but the iMac Pro is great. Now they could get away with that

00:38:12   on stage without probably being booed.

00:38:15   So yeah.

00:38:16   They may say, "Oh, we have these updates that we want to do to these products." So they

00:38:21   might update something in the iMac Pro, they might update something in the MacBook Pros,

00:38:25   but then they don't have again this like,

00:38:27   well, where's the Mac Pro you promised?

00:38:29   - And it lets them say like, we love you,

00:38:32   we love developers and we love Pro users.

00:38:36   And underlying that is everybody having read this story

00:38:38   from TechCrunch about how they've got like teams of pros

00:38:43   inside Apple working with them and they're observing them

00:38:47   and giving them electric shocks,

00:38:48   probably not that last part.

00:38:50   And that underlies our understanding

00:38:54   when they stand on stage and say, "We love the pro market

00:38:56   and we're recommitted to it."

00:38:57   And they don't have to talk about all that stuff.

00:39:00   It's just kind of in the water.

00:39:02   So it's an interesting PR decision on their front

00:39:07   in order to get out in front of this.

00:39:09   But I think WWDC is the most important thing in their mind

00:39:13   when they're doing this.

00:39:13   Just get it off the table

00:39:15   before they have that big high profile event.

00:39:18   Because the last thing you want is the developers

00:39:20   to be a bad audience and cranky

00:39:23   and because it's supposed to be like a very,

00:39:27   it's Apple's second biggest kind of tent pole event

00:39:30   of the year and they want it to go off smoothly.

00:39:33   - Just a couple of like tidbits from some tweets

00:39:36   that Matthew Panzorino was sending

00:39:37   after the report went out, his article,

00:39:41   no information about new Mac minis,

00:39:43   nothing mentioned, nothing seen, nothing.

00:39:47   They did mention-- - Oh, it's not a pro product,

00:39:48   right? - But like nothing, right?

00:39:50   But they're talking about everything else,

00:39:51   but like nothing else about the Mac Mini.

00:39:53   And they did reference in passing again, the Pro Display.

00:39:57   So like that's still very much on the table

00:39:59   will probably come with the Mac Pro.

00:40:01   - And that's where you see the difference between Apple.

00:40:05   When Apple announced the MacBook Pro with Touch Bar,

00:40:09   a few of us asked them about the display.

00:40:14   And I think they told Nielle Patel,

00:40:16   we're out of the display business.

00:40:18   And that was in the fall.

00:40:20   And in the spring, that was the fall of '16,

00:40:23   in the spring of '17, they had that round table

00:40:27   and they said they were doing a Mac Pro

00:40:28   and an external display.

00:40:30   And in the intervening time, first off,

00:40:31   they shipped that, you know, the LG display

00:40:34   that had so many problems

00:40:35   and that people complained a lot about.

00:40:37   And very clearly, they also made this Mac Pro decision.

00:40:42   You can see the window where they went from,

00:40:44   we're out of the display business to,

00:40:45   oh no, no, no, we're gonna make a display.

00:40:47   So somewhere between the fall of '16 and the spring of '17

00:40:50   is when that all pivoted around.

00:40:55   This is only half of the Mac story for today because there's this whole other side to this

00:41:00   which makes maybe everything even more interesting, which is the idea of Intel processors no longer

00:41:08   being in Macintosh computers. But before we get to that, let me thank Linode for their

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00:42:56   According to Mark Gurman and Ian King at Bloomberg, Apple is currently planning to transition

00:43:02   from Intel to their own chips, we will assume ARM for the sake of this discussion, in their

00:43:08   Mac line as early as 2020. The project is codenamed Kalamata. It is obviously still

00:43:16   in early development and it is part of a larger strategy from Apple to make their devices

00:43:21   more seamlessly work together. So, Jason, my question for you...

00:43:28   >> Kalamata is a kind of olive. >> I think it's also a place. So, there we

00:43:35   go. >> Oh, there's a city in Greece, but I was

00:43:37   just like it's an olive what does that mean? Stuff an olive is there like the pit in the

00:43:43   yeah I think it's because they're I don't know they're putting new stuff in it I don't

00:43:47   know like who knows what it means. So here's my question for you Jason. Okay. Is Apple

00:43:54   moving towards a shared platform? Well so so the I wrote a piece about this for Macworld

00:44:05   last week where I said, I likened it to the parable

00:44:08   of the blind men and the elephant, right?

00:44:10   Where the blind men touch the elephant

00:44:11   and they think it's three different animals

00:44:12   'cause they don't see the whole picture.

00:44:13   - You're all about parables today, aren't you?

00:44:15   - Yes, I am, I am.

00:44:16   Today it's all about, there'll be a haiku later.

00:44:18   So we know about this, we know about Marzipan,

00:44:23   which is the idea of building kind of a shared app framework

00:44:27   for app development across iOS and Mac.

00:44:30   I wonder if we're not seeing the entire picture here.

00:44:33   It certainly seems that at the very least,

00:44:35   what Apple is trying to do is take advantage

00:44:38   of the work that it's done on one platform

00:44:42   on another platform, because it's very clear,

00:44:45   like maintaining two entirely separate consumer platforms

00:44:48   is not realistic.

00:44:50   The more, you know, they had this huge advantage

00:44:51   with the app store, and yet they can't translate that

00:44:54   to the Mac because it uses all sorts

00:44:56   of different technologies.

00:44:57   I mean, it's not easy for an iOS developer

00:44:59   to bring their stuff to the Mac.

00:45:01   So could they make that easier?

00:45:03   They've been putting ARM, I mean, right?

00:45:05   Like there was a report a while ago about the hybrid Macs,

00:45:08   right, and we have, I have a hybrid Mac

00:45:10   in front of me right now.

00:45:11   It's got the T2 processor in it,

00:45:13   which is an Apple built ARM processor,

00:45:15   and it's not being used for anything much,

00:45:18   security stuff, boot stuff, but it is in there.

00:45:21   And so they're already integrating

00:45:24   their chip technology into Macs.

00:45:27   Dropping Intel is a dramatic move.

00:45:31   There are lots of different pieces here, right?

00:45:33   like this would be a way to move to a unified platform

00:45:38   if they want to make the Mac of 2020 run software

00:45:43   that's more or less iOS apps,

00:45:46   but it doesn't have to be.

00:45:49   It doesn't have to be the whole platform,

00:45:51   but the two previous chip transitions

00:45:53   were the entire platform.

00:45:55   But Apple could, as part of its,

00:45:59   like let's bring in another piece,

00:46:00   its commitment to pro users, right?

00:46:03   it could retain x86, Intel compatibility,

00:46:08   or even keep max around at the high end

00:46:13   that run on Intel processors.

00:46:14   It doesn't necessarily have to mean

00:46:16   that they would switch the entire line over to ARM,

00:46:19   although it would be a lot more messy if they didn't.

00:46:22   So I don't know, I think it's not surprising.

00:46:26   I've seen some people speculate that it's entirely possible

00:46:28   that they will, that they could build something,

00:46:32   'cause it is Apple building its own chips, right?

00:46:36   Apple building its own chips is not fundamentally ARM.

00:46:39   All of Apple's chips are ARM now,

00:46:40   but Apple could design something

00:46:43   with x86 compatibility in some way.

00:46:47   Obviously AMD makes x86 compatible chips.

00:46:50   They could also have hybrid systems for pros

00:46:53   that had ARM and also had Intel or AMD processors in it.

00:46:58   There's lots of complexity

00:47:00   about the way you would architect something like that.

00:47:04   And I am not a chip designer,

00:47:05   so I can't go down that route.

00:47:07   But it's fascinating because it does feel like

00:47:09   at a fundamental level,

00:47:10   we are hearing stories about how the Mac is going to get

00:47:13   the processors that are in iOS devices,

00:47:15   the app development framework,

00:47:17   or something similar to what's available to iOS developers.

00:47:20   And it does feel like

00:47:22   if they're not basically merging the Mac into something

00:47:26   that is a subset or a superset of iOS,

00:47:29   it is definitely taking big chunks of things that it has done on iOS and saying this is

00:47:35   going to be the future of the Mac.

00:47:38   I have a lot of opinions about this which is just based mostly on my own feelings as

00:47:46   opposed to logic, which is like it goes into a couple of different directions.

00:47:53   one I kind of feel like if you're gonna do this, if you're gonna move towards designing your own

00:48:00   chips, why maintain two OSs? It feels like one of the main reasons you do this is to simplify

00:48:06   everything. So I look at this story and I'm like okay this is Apple simplifying, they want to bring

00:48:11   it all in-house so they can control it all, so why maintain two OSs? You just at this point find a

00:48:17   a way to create one OS that runs everywhere. And I don't think this is a case of like,

00:48:23   make the Macs run iOS, but like something which is more than that. And this also extends

00:48:28   to me thinking, why would you want to have two processor architectures going on at once,

00:48:35   right? It's like, you are grossly overcomplicating the way that stuff works at that point to

00:48:40   to a level where it's like, is it even worth going through that incredible amount of work

00:48:47   when you could just stick with Intel?

00:48:49   Yeah, well that has always been my argument against Apple doing an arm transition for

00:48:55   the Mac, is if Apple's goal is just to keep the Mac in stasis as a product that continues

00:49:02   to exist in their product line, the right thing to do is just keep those things floating

00:49:09   and keep the Intel processors revving

00:49:14   as Intel updates them, you update them,

00:49:17   and just let it go on like that

00:49:19   and do software updates for compatibility.

00:49:22   And I feel like Apple has done that for a while

00:49:25   where there has not been a lot.

00:49:26   And then we've started to see some changes

00:49:29   and they're all changes that are kind of like,

00:49:30   oh, that's kind of like an iOS thing

00:49:32   that you're bringing over to the Mac.

00:49:33   So I think what people get freaked out about this

00:49:39   is when they think about today's iOS and they think,

00:49:41   I can't use iOS to do my job, I need a Mac,

00:49:44   I like the Mac, I don't wanna use iOS.

00:49:47   And I think that's fair.

00:49:49   The argument that I would make is,

00:49:55   what if Apple's changes to the Mac are essentially

00:50:00   to allow this new platform to do all the things iOS can do

00:50:05   and the things the Mac can do?

00:50:08   And what, and, you know, basically if you're a Mac user,

00:50:12   whether it feels like a Mac or it feels like iOS,

00:50:14   or it feels like a combination thereof,

00:50:16   is it now acceptable because it does what you need it to do?

00:50:21   In the end, if it does what you need it to do,

00:50:24   that's probably okay.

00:50:25   I start to wonder if what Apple has decided is,

00:50:28   rather than let the Mac just kind of float out there

00:50:35   doing its thing, it has decided to be aggressive

00:50:39   in building the bridges that get them to a place

00:50:47   where they've got one platform.

00:50:50   And that means making changes to the Mac

00:50:53   to make it fit in more with iOS

00:50:55   and potentially making changes to iOS

00:50:59   to make it capable of doing more stuff like the Mac.

00:51:02   And I don't know whether they come together

00:51:04   or whether, like I said, is it a superset?

00:51:06   Is it a subset?

00:51:07   Like is the Mac of the future kind of like

00:51:10   an iOS capable device that also has this Mac layer

00:51:13   on top of it?

00:51:14   Or does, you know, do they really come together?

00:51:18   We've been talking about the idea of like an iOS laptop

00:51:21   or an iOS desktop.

00:51:23   That's the elephant in the room here.

00:51:25   Now I brought the elephant back again.

00:51:27   The, right?

00:51:30   Because like that's the domain of the Mac.

00:51:32   So what do those products look like in five years?

00:51:34   Are those Macs and there are no iOS devices that do it?

00:51:37   Does Apple offer iOS devices and Macs in the same shapes?

00:51:40   They don't do that currently.

00:51:41   That's a mental barrier that you would have to go through.

00:51:45   Or is the answer all of the above, none of the above,

00:51:48   where suddenly, you know, there's the Apple platform stuff

00:51:52   and it just works on the Apple platform,

00:51:53   whether you're using a laptop or a desktop

00:51:55   or a tablet or a phone.

00:51:57   A lot of tough decisions.

00:51:58   We've talked about it in a bunch of different ways.

00:52:00   I think the idea that Apple's gonna use its own processors

00:52:04   and Macs though, suggests that it's trying to make the Mac

00:52:07   something different.

00:52:09   And I don't think Apple has any fantasies

00:52:13   that by making the Mac something different,

00:52:16   it's going to expand its market share

00:52:18   and become more than 8% of the company's revenue.

00:52:21   And for that reason, I think that it's probably motivated

00:52:24   by trying to make the Mac a lot more like iOS

00:52:28   so that Apple's work on one benefits the other

00:52:32   or benefits both and it's that platform unification thing.

00:52:36   How does the square with Apple's commitment to pros?

00:52:39   That's a good question.

00:52:41   You know, Apple could try to build an A series processor

00:52:46   that has many, many, many, many cores

00:52:49   and is dedicated to pros and maybe they'll do that

00:52:51   or maybe they have another solution

00:52:53   involving keeping x86 compatibility around

00:52:56   for the high end for a long time.

00:52:58   I don't know, but it's fascinating to think about it

00:53:01   because this is a, you know, I'm inclined to believe

00:53:05   this report, right?

00:53:06   This is Mark Gurman, and it means that Apple

00:53:09   is exerting effort on the Mac.

00:53:11   And I don't believe that Apple would be doing all of this

00:53:16   just to keep macOS totally separate from iOS.

00:53:19   I just, I don't believe that they would do that,

00:53:23   that it would be so much easier for them

00:53:25   if they really believed the Mac was just gonna be

00:53:27   in maintenance mode to let it coast.

00:53:30   And that isn't what they're doing, apparently.

00:53:33   - Like, it really feels to me that if you're gonna do

00:53:38   anything in this arena, like if you're gonna make

00:53:42   any kind of move, any kind of transition,

00:53:44   it must come with it, some large shifts, some description.

00:53:49   Because, you know, I hear a lot of people say that,

00:53:52   "Oh, Apple being held back by Intel."

00:53:54   I don't know if they have been.

00:53:55   Like, it's not like the laptop line was getting bright neck revision, right?

00:54:02   Like, I know that there were chips that were potentially holding them back, but it's not

00:54:06   like Apple had a history of like super quickly updating everything.

00:54:10   Like I think that they've just, they went through a period of time where they were addressing

00:54:13   a lot of things.

00:54:15   And I don't know if it is necessarily Intel that was being a problem for them, because

00:54:19   there's a lot of stuff that Apple can do, right, which isn't just processor revisions

00:54:24   all the time to their line if they want the line to improve in different ways.

00:54:28   They've shown that, right? There are different designs they can do,

00:54:30   there are different advancements they can do to the hardware in some way.

00:54:33   It really just feels to me that they're kind of like in a situation where it's,

00:54:38   well, we have these, we have these two platforms

00:54:42   and one of them sells significantly less,

00:54:46   but is super important to us for a variety of different reasons.

00:54:50   how can we make the smaller platform benefit the bigger platform and vice versa and finding some way

00:55:01   to have them all work on the same architecture and then develop them more cohesively makes a lot of

00:55:09   sense to me. Like if they want to create more hybrid-y like machines like Jason Snell's iBook,

00:55:19   right? This feels like a great place to start with that, where it's like, here is a device

00:55:24   that runs this, what feels like an almost bridge between iOS and macOS as we've known them, and

00:55:33   it is the future of our platform. The platform has to change eventually, right? Like, this is

00:55:39   what happens. Like, iOS was different to macOS and there will at some point be something that

00:55:44   that is different to iOS. And if Apple were thinking that, you know, it's like me and

00:55:49   you have spoke about this for a long time where we don't believe that the iPad is the

00:55:54   future of computing, but it is closer to the future than the Mac is, right? Like, we kind

00:56:03   of put that right, yeah?

00:56:04   Right, right.

00:56:05   Like, that what the iPad is is closer to what Apple will do in the future than what the

00:56:08   Mac currently is.

00:56:10   - Well, yeah, that's true, but I would say also

00:56:12   that they're both on these paths

00:56:15   where they both have features that feel necessary.

00:56:18   And there are things that you can do on the Mac

00:56:21   you can't do on iOS and vice versa.

00:56:24   But iOS is a more modern platform

00:56:28   and it's a more successful platform.

00:56:30   So what I don't wanna say is,

00:56:34   well, what Apple's gonna do is it's gonna transition to iOS

00:56:36   and the Mac's just gonna get forcibly moved in

00:56:38   'cause it's not quite like that.

00:56:40   I feel like Apple may be viewing this as an opportunity

00:56:44   to take Mac users and take not necessarily all of the Mac,

00:56:50   but a big chunk of the Mac,

00:56:52   the people who just wanna buy a laptop, right?

00:56:56   Not necessarily even the high-end users, the pro users,

00:57:00   maybe there's a different story there.

00:57:02   And give them a product that has better battery life

00:57:05   and that has better apps.

00:57:07   And how do you do that?

00:57:10   And they could continue to call it Mac OS,

00:57:13   but all of a sudden it runs a lot of apps

00:57:15   that look an awful lot like iOS.

00:57:17   And maybe they add a touch to that layer only.

00:57:21   And it's a touchscreen Mac,

00:57:23   sort of like what Microsoft has done

00:57:24   where the nice apps are built for touch.

00:57:29   And then there's also sort of apps

00:57:32   that are really built for keyboard and mouse.

00:57:33   And that's okay.

00:57:35   I don't know, the, it's a challenge.

00:57:40   I think, just to come back to it,

00:57:43   I think my gut feeling is that Apple looks

00:57:45   at its consumer market.

00:57:47   All the people who buy MacBooks and iMacs and things

00:57:50   who are not the high-end pro users,

00:57:53   they're not the super technical users.

00:57:55   And it's a big portion of the Mac market are those people.

00:57:59   And think we need to serve them better.

00:58:02   And do look over at what Microsoft is doing

00:58:05   with their surface line and with a lot of the other PC

00:58:09   devices that are out there.

00:58:10   And now Microsoft is doing, you know,

00:58:12   ARM version of Windows.

00:58:13   And we're seeing those ARM laptops

00:58:15   that have incredible battery life.

00:58:17   And Apple is saying not,

00:58:19   well, we gotta be like those guys,

00:58:20   but is saying, are we serving that audience,

00:58:23   our audience with what we've got,

00:58:26   with Intel processors and no touch screen.

00:58:30   And when we, you know, and, you know,

00:58:34   The Windows stuff has this touch first kind of thing

00:58:37   and it's a modern kind of app layer and we have that.

00:58:39   It's on iOS, but we don't have that on the Mac.

00:58:41   What do we do?

00:58:42   And it's gotta be that Apple looks at that and says,

00:58:47   this is what we need to change this.

00:58:50   We need to change, for those users,

00:58:51   we need to give them a better product.

00:58:52   And the way we're gonna be able to give them

00:58:53   a better product is to get the richness

00:58:56   of the iOS app store on their devices.

00:58:59   And one way to do that would be to make an iOS laptop.

00:59:02   Sure, but then an iOS laptop has a lot of limitations.

00:59:05   They're gonna have to improve iOS to get.

00:59:07   So maybe it is this thing where the Mac is feeding iOS

00:59:10   and iOS is feeding the Mac.

00:59:11   And is that a toaster fridge?

00:59:13   Or is that a new kind of device

00:59:17   that is taking however you wanna spin it.

00:59:21   It's taking the best of the Mac and putting it in iOS,

00:59:23   or maybe it's taking the best of iOS

00:59:24   and putting it on the Mac.

00:59:26   It's a, because in the end, an ARM-based, let's say,

00:59:31   MacBook that can run iOS apps and has 20 hour battery life. I would argue is a way better product for most people

00:59:40   So there was a tweet that I saw from Steve Tran Smith

00:59:47   Which is really interesting to me where there is like a kind of a bridge between these two

00:59:51   Topics right where you have Mac Pro in 2019 on Mac in 2020 think about those two dates

01:00:01   2019, 2020. It is very likely that the Mac Pro and an ARM Mac may be introduced at the

01:00:13   same time.

01:00:14   Wwdc 2019, they'll tell the developers, "Okay, we're making a chip transition. Here's the

01:00:19   details and here's what you're going to have to do in order to get to the new world."

01:00:23   Yeah. So that was more what I meant, right? They won't say, "Oh, and we're shipping today

01:00:27   - It is! - In our MacBook,

01:00:28   but like, they will say like, we have this Mac Pro

01:00:31   and also, you know, we are doing a transition now.

01:00:34   So my question to you is,

01:00:36   will the Mac Pro be the last Intel Mac

01:00:42   or the first ARM Mac?

01:00:44   - I think it's a great question.

01:00:47   It would, I'm gonna say yes.

01:00:52   I think. - Okay.

01:00:56   I think we've already seen that before Apple abandons Intel,

01:01:01   according to this story, right?

01:01:05   Apple is gonna keep infusing its processors,

01:01:09   its designed ARM-based processors into the Mac.

01:01:14   Step one was the Touch Bar and the T1.

01:01:17   Step two was the iMac Pro and the T2.

01:01:20   That's gonna continue.

01:01:22   So I have a hard time believing that the Mac Pro

01:01:25   that ships in 2019 won't have an ARM processor in it.

01:01:30   I have, I mean, this story is starting in 2020.

01:01:35   My guess is that it's gonna start in 2020 at the low end.

01:01:38   It may reach the high end, eventually it may not.

01:01:40   So my guess is that that Mac Pro

01:01:42   is gonna have Xeons in it.

01:01:43   But it's also gonna have ARM in it.

01:01:46   And it's possible that if Apple is announcing in 2019

01:01:51   at WWDC, let's say, a chip transition,

01:01:54   it's possible that one of the things that it will say

01:01:57   about the Mac Pro, if it indeed talks about the Mac Pro

01:02:00   at that time, will be that it's got an ARM processor in it

01:02:05   and that there perhaps is even a development story there

01:02:09   about how this allows you to develop software

01:02:14   for both platforms, both chip architectures, maybe.

01:02:18   Or it could just be as simple as it's like a T4

01:02:21   and it does some booting things and some security things

01:02:23   and not a lot else. And it's got Xeons and it's basically the iMac Pro in a case and

01:02:28   it is not colliding with the chip transition narrative because that Mac Pro is not going

01:02:33   to turn over into an Apple designed chip for five years. Because that will be the last

01:02:39   product that goes.

01:02:40   It's just, I like the idea of these two things coming together. It really does feel like

01:02:46   a kind of like, here is where we are today and here is where we're going.

01:02:50   an elephant! Oh! I mean, right? I mean, I really believe it. Like, there are pieces

01:02:59   to this puzzle that we don't have, but all will become clear. And Apple is—I have a

01:03:08   great deal of confidence that Apple knows exactly where it's going, and that these

01:03:12   Mark Gurman reports are pieces of the puzzle, but they're not the whole story.

01:03:17   I genuinely believe that all of this is linked, right?

01:03:20   Marzipan.

01:03:21   It's obvious, it's clear to see, right?

01:03:23   That Marzipan is the beginning which can lead to a transition because people are starting

01:03:30   to build with new tools which can cross the bridge between them, which eventually there

01:03:36   is no bridge to cross anymore, we're all on the bridge.

01:03:39   And we've moved in, there's lots of metaphors today, we've moved our homes to the bridge,

01:03:45   we live on the bridge now.

01:03:46   put an elephant on that bridge because it's too heavy.

01:03:49   Because it's too heavy. The elephant has to stay off the bridge.

01:03:52   Because the elephant has to take a raft across the river instead, but the bad news is the

01:03:59   scorpion is on the raft.

01:04:01   And so it's going to get rid of it.

01:04:02   I brought it all together.

01:04:04   There is a clear through line which gets us to R Max and Apple OS, right? And I believe

01:04:13   that is a long-term thing but will begin in 2018 and then moves through to 2019, 2020,

01:04:21   2021, by 2025 maybe, right? Like, there is one thing.

01:04:26   Yeah, think 10 years from now. I think if you asked Apple behind the scenes as a person

01:04:31   inside Apple who gets the truth, where they view their platforms in 10 years. It's a long

01:04:37   time. I think they would say one app development framework for all devices

01:04:43   and that all of the needs defined by them right but all the needs of Mac

01:04:53   users including professional class Mac users are capable of being served by the

01:04:58   operating system. How do you get there? And that's the that's the that's why

01:05:03   they get paid the big money because it's a it's a lot of moving parts it's a lot

01:05:07   the technology that they have to build to do it. But I think that is the ultimate goal,

01:05:13   is one app development platform, one operating system, essentially, and not giving away all

01:05:20   sorts of features that today's users depend on, which, again, will be a source of frustration

01:05:26   because there will probably be decisions Apple makes to say, "This is not a thing that we're

01:05:30   going to do," and that's going to take 1% of the market or half a percent of the market

01:05:35   - Like straight up, people are gonna get left behind

01:05:38   when this happens, but like that,

01:05:40   there is no other way of doing it.

01:05:43   Like this is what has to happen.

01:05:45   - I was listening to John on ATP point out like,

01:05:48   there are a lot of web developers who use Docker

01:05:49   and they're using Intel if it's for Intel based servers.

01:05:53   And when we talked about this last year,

01:05:55   we heard from a few of them.

01:05:57   And I've heard people say basically,

01:06:00   well, if they go off of Intel, I probably won't buy a Mac

01:06:03   because a lot of web developers buy Macs

01:06:07   because they can run the Mac OS,

01:06:08   but they can also have Intel compatibility.

01:06:10   And there are other stories similar to that.

01:06:12   And I totally get it.

01:06:13   As I said last year, I'll say it again,

01:06:14   I totally get that.

01:06:17   If I'm Apple and I look at the Mac market,

01:06:19   what percentage of the Mac market are those people?

01:06:21   And if you think you can better serve 99.5% of the market

01:06:26   by getting rid of Intel compatibility,

01:06:28   you're willing to get rid of the other half of a percent

01:06:33   or whatever it is.

01:06:34   If you're in that half a percent, it stinks.

01:06:37   No doubt about it, but I think it's any change like this,

01:06:41   you're gonna lose some people.

01:06:42   And that's just how it works.

01:06:45   That's just how it is.

01:06:46   And there is, I definitely see it on the internet a lot.

01:06:49   This is not a surprise that there is an attitude

01:06:54   that you should never make a decision

01:06:56   that loses you a customer.

01:06:58   But not making a decision will also lose you customers.

01:07:01   That's just how it is.

01:07:02   So you have to make smart decisions and it sucks if you're the customer who gets lost,

01:07:07   but sometimes that's just how it is.

01:07:09   And as well, like if you believe that by losing this 1% you're able to do this thing, which

01:07:16   can then also impact iOS positively, well that 1% became a minuscule percent.

01:07:23   If you believe that a change that you're making to the Mac will eventually benefit the entire

01:07:28   platform somehow, right, as they move more closely together, then the percentages that

01:07:33   you lose from people that have edge cases, those percentages become really nothing.

01:07:40   And there's a case to be made that as—Microsoft has failed to reach people on mobile, right?

01:07:45   They don't have a mobile platform. They have a PC platform. There's a—you know, and

01:07:50   still Windows is still strong there's an argument to made that Apple is a much

01:07:58   stronger company selling laptops and even computers computers desktops to

01:08:05   people who are comfortable with iOS and today they can't do that today they're

01:08:11   like well we have the Mac it's kind of like iOS but not really and it's

01:08:15   compatible with our stuff that's on iOS, kind of, but not really. And that's a terrible,

01:08:21   like that's a terrible strategy, right? That's, you've got, like when we look at Microsoft

01:08:26   we say, "Oh, well, Windows is kind of boxed in. They're a PC operating system, but on

01:08:35   mobile it's Android and iOS." And Apple would be in a much stronger position, I think I

01:08:41   I would argue, if they could use iOS and say,

01:08:46   we have a variety of products that run iOS.

01:08:48   And so replace that PC with, you already have an iPhone,

01:08:51   maybe you have an iPad, and now you can buy our computer

01:08:54   and put it on your desk and it'll be all those apps

01:08:57   and it'll be familiar.

01:08:58   Like that is a stronger position to a lot of people.

01:09:01   And I'll remind all of our loyal Mac users out there,

01:09:04   there are way more people who use iOS who are not Mac users

01:09:06   than who are Mac users.

01:09:08   So, you know, would Apple make a trade

01:09:10   that would drive some loyal Mac users to Windows

01:09:13   in exchange for a much larger group of people,

01:09:16   access to a much larger group of people

01:09:18   who are comfortable on iOS,

01:09:21   you gotta do the research, but maybe, maybe so.

01:09:24   And that's something, to wrap this all up, Myke,

01:09:28   this is something that I've been thinking about

01:09:29   for the last few weeks, which is this really existential

01:09:32   kind of feeling about the Mac, which is like,

01:09:34   does this mean the Mac is really,

01:09:35   as we know it, is going away?

01:09:37   And I think maybe it is.

01:09:39   But what I will say, I went through all these,

01:09:42   again, sort of like the stages of grief.

01:09:45   The funny thing about things that you rely on that go away

01:09:48   is, first off, things don't go away fast.

01:09:52   When I started in covering the Mac,

01:09:55   I was downstairs from the skeleton staff that was still

01:09:58   putting out an Apple II magazine.

01:10:01   That was-- wow.

01:10:02   That was years after the Apple II's heyday,

01:10:04   but it was still around, still around.

01:10:06   So things don't just die, and they

01:10:09   pull the plug and they're gone.

01:10:10   There's a long kind of ramp down.

01:10:14   But also, most of the stuff that I've had

01:10:17   that felt essential, by the time it became inessential,

01:10:22   it didn't matter anymore.

01:10:25   And I think that's important that like,

01:10:28   and part of this is us,

01:10:29   and part of this is Apple's challenge,

01:10:31   which is that when the time comes when the Mac,

01:10:37   when I like don't have a Mac anymore,

01:10:39   which I never had conceived of,

01:10:41   but I think is gonna happen in the next,

01:10:43   I don't know, five or 10 years, right?

01:10:44   It's gonna happen.

01:10:45   When that time comes,

01:10:49   if Apple has done its job right, it won't matter

01:10:53   because I will have already,

01:10:55   I will be able to do everything I will have adapted,

01:10:57   the world will have changed and it won't matter.

01:10:59   And I think about things like the telephone,

01:11:03   like I, you know, phone wire, my house is wired for a landline and there are wires all over the

01:11:11   house because when we were here it's like oh we need to put a phone jack in this room and then we

01:11:15   can do a wireless thing to this thing and all of that. Like and all of a sudden it didn't matter.

01:11:19   My house has a port in the wall that I can plug an aerial into so I can get,

01:11:27   you know, and I can get like our like over-the-air television. We don't have that plugged in. We

01:11:33   don't have that because we watch all of our television over the internet. Yeah, you could,

01:11:40   but as an aside, I just answered a question about this. There are, there is like a little,

01:11:43   um, a little product you can buy that attaches to the the aerial cable and it gives you like a

01:11:51   little DVR and it just puts all the shows in Plex, if you ever did want to do that. But we don't,

01:11:55   we don't there's nothing there but we don't need there's nothing there that you don't already have

01:11:59   right yeah we can get it wherever we want it yeah and traditional tv is another great example right

01:12:04   where it's like i have a tivo and it's very nice but the amount of streaming stuff that i watch now

01:12:12   including stuff that i get on the tivo but i just prefer to watch it on streaming because it's

01:12:16   easier and in some cases it's higher quality or i get it sooner and you know i didn't notice when

01:12:23   when it happened, but all of a sudden,

01:12:25   I realize that I'm very close to being able

01:12:28   to not have traditional TV anymore

01:12:30   because of the technology advancing.

01:12:33   So what I'm saying is, if done right,

01:12:36   and if the timing is right, if the implementation is right,

01:12:39   by the time it comes for you to do the inconceivable

01:12:42   and give up this thing that has been a part

01:12:45   of what you do for a long time,

01:12:49   in the best circumstances, by the time that happens,

01:12:53   you won't notice or it won't matter or it won't hurt

01:12:58   because the world will have changed.

01:13:02   The idea of not having a landline,

01:13:04   the idea of not having cable TV.

01:13:06   And, you know, if done right, the idea of not having a Mac,

01:13:09   it won't just be, it won't be terrible,

01:13:12   it will be irrelevant because the things that you do

01:13:16   will now be done in a different place,

01:13:19   but you're still doing them.

01:13:21   And I just, I know that's kind of a squishy

01:13:23   and touchy feely kind of moment,

01:13:24   but I really do think that we could get to that point.

01:13:29   But it is kind of on Apple, right?

01:13:30   'Cause Apple could screw it up.

01:13:31   Apple could do something to make the Mac unusable

01:13:36   and create a complete exodus of people from the Mac.

01:13:41   But I would argue that if Apple did nothing

01:13:44   and just let the Mac sit there, we've seen it.

01:13:47   Like, that's not gonna satisfy people who use the Mac

01:13:50   'cause they want new features and they want new hardware.

01:13:52   And Apple, you know,

01:13:55   Apple is probably not gonna do that

01:13:58   as an active investment in just the Mac

01:14:02   as a standalone platform.

01:14:04   It just seems unlikely at this point.

01:14:06   But the good news is it may not matter in five years.

01:14:09   It matters today.

01:14:10   They couldn't take it away today.

01:14:12   But by the time that they take it away, quote unquote,

01:14:15   it may not matter for most people.

01:14:18   We'll see.

01:14:19   - Today's show is brought to you by Pingdom.

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01:14:54   You don't want your site to be down, you don't want someone to have to tweet to you or email

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01:15:49   So we are into #AskUPGRADE and our first question this week comes from Elijah. Elijah wants

01:15:56   to know, how do you define a pro user on either of Apple's platforms?

01:16:02   There, this is a great question and there's no great answer. I would define it as being

01:16:12   people who were, I would loosely define it as people who use the devices to get their

01:16:16   work done. Because there is a, and to get like their livelihood accomplished. I think

01:16:25   is a portion of the market that is just like looking at their email and checking Twitter

01:16:30   and playing games and stuff like that, especially on iOS. And the requirements of those users

01:16:39   are a lot lower or at least they're very different because in some cases they have very specific

01:16:45   requirements that need to be met, but they're not the same requirements as somebody who

01:16:48   is in a particular industry, a particular field. It's a hard -- there's no good answer

01:16:53   are here other than to say that it's the people I think the way it's broadly been defined

01:16:57   is it's people who require a level of performance and functionality that is above and beyond

01:17:06   the general population of technology users because they're applying the technology to

01:17:11   very specific generally industry tasks and that's I know that that's kind of a vague

01:17:18   way way of doing it but I've always viewed and we used when I when I started writing

01:17:21   about Apple, we used to use the term power user a lot. And that's funny because some

01:17:26   of the power users are pros and some of them are regular people who just love getting the

01:17:31   most out of their devices. But I like that name too because sometimes it's not that you're

01:17:39   – the power user is the person who behaves like their job depends on the technology working,

01:17:46   but it doesn't actually. It's just fun. But for a lot of people, it's their livelihood

01:17:50   and they have needs and the needs are not something that is needed by 80% of the people,

01:17:55   but it is life and death to them in terms of their business. So that's sort of how I

01:18:00   would define it. The problem is that there's not one industry and there's not one need

01:18:05   and there's not one, we can say like performance is a need and that's pretty broad, but you

01:18:10   get into the details and sometimes it's very specific kinds of performance, very specific

01:18:15   kinds of software. And that's what makes it complicated to serve a pro market because

01:18:20   there isn't a pro market as Apple pointed out in their thing when they talk to Panzer,

01:18:24   there's not one pro market, there's dozens of pro markets, all of which are very small,

01:18:29   have some things in common, some things not in common. And that's why it's so hard to

01:18:33   serve pro markets well.

01:18:38   Sage wants to know, do you happen to know if there are any websites or resources that

01:18:42   list WWDC adjacent activities. In the past I have used an app called Parties for WWDC,

01:18:51   which kind of gets updated as it gets a little bit closer to the time and then I think throughout

01:18:56   the week of like events and meetups and live shows and stuff that are occurring. It looks

01:19:03   like the app is coming back. There was a there was another one called WWDC Parties which

01:19:09   finished in 2017. That app is no longer being updated anymore, I believe that resources

01:19:13   is done with. But it looks like from the release notes of this parties app that 2018 is coming,

01:19:21   they know, and so there will be stuff going in there. I've used it in the past and I really like

01:19:26   it. It's nice and simple but gives you an idea of some of the stuff that's going on.

01:19:29   Great. And I will just note as well, one of those events is Relay FM Live or Alt Conf. Tickets,

01:19:36   a small amount of tickets are still available. I'll put a link in the show notes if you want to

01:19:40   come and see us do a live show on Wednesday the 6th of June. David has written in to say,

01:19:47   "The months of..." This is weird, but I love it. "The months of July, August, September,

01:19:52   October, and November spell out Jason." Jason, did you know this?

01:19:57   Yes, of course I knew this. Isn't it awesome? It's amazing.

01:20:01   I'll also point out that my initials are J-A-S.

01:20:07   That's right, my initials are the first three letters of my name.

01:20:12   It's all true. It's my world, you're all just living in it.

01:20:15   It turns out my mind is slowly expanding over here to take in all this new and

01:20:19   wonderful information. Right, mm-hmm, that's right.

01:20:22   Let's go back to Earth with Nathan's question.

01:20:25   What are the odds that we'll see a new iPad Mini by the end of the year? What

01:20:29   - What about just a price drop?

01:20:31   No and no is my opinion.

01:20:33   - The odds are no.

01:20:35   - The odds are no.

01:20:36   No new iPad mini, I just don't see it happening

01:20:39   and a price drop, I don't think they're gonna do that

01:20:41   for as long as that product exists.

01:20:42   Like for as long as they are selling that iPad mini,

01:20:46   I suppose like 228 or 256 gig,

01:20:49   like that thing will just stick around

01:20:51   and nothing will change until it's gone.

01:20:54   - Until it dies, yeah.

01:20:55   And I think you're right at this point,

01:20:57   my guess would be that we won't see it ever.

01:21:01   Think we're gonna die. - iPad Mini 4

01:21:04   is the one that is still available,

01:21:05   and it is only available in 128 gigabytes,

01:21:08   but at least you can choose

01:21:09   between silver, gold, and space gray.

01:21:11   But no, at this point, I don't see it happening.

01:21:14   - My son has used an iPad Mini for ages,

01:21:18   and it's great, especially for younger kids.

01:21:21   It is great.

01:21:21   I wish that they would keep it around

01:21:23   and do a kind of cheap model of it,

01:21:25   but I think the answer really is

01:21:27   that there's not enough of a market for that product

01:21:28   to keep it in existence.

01:21:30   - And finally today, Barry's question is,

01:21:34   do you believe that iOS would benefit

01:21:36   from the ability that Android has

01:21:39   to designate a third-party app

01:21:41   to wholly replace a core app like calendar or mail?

01:21:45   And if so, what are the hurdles that prevent it?

01:21:48   What do you think, Jason?

01:21:50   - Benefit?

01:21:51   I think it could benefit from it,

01:21:52   but there are some challenges

01:21:53   in how integrated the first-party apps are into the system.

01:21:58   We do have the ability to delete them now,

01:22:01   but sometimes that just leads to you clicking a link

01:22:03   and it's saying, "Oh boy, this is a calendar link.

01:22:05   I don't know what to do,"

01:22:06   instead of just opening the other calendar app

01:22:08   that you have.

01:22:09   So yes, I think it would benefit it.

01:22:11   It is a lot of...

01:22:14   There's work involved in doing that on Apple's part.

01:22:17   And I hope they do,

01:22:19   because when we talk about convergence,

01:22:21   this is a thing that the Mac does way better than iOS.

01:22:24   And it goes not just to replacing first-party apps,

01:22:27   but also being able to set default apps

01:22:29   and even register like different apps

01:22:34   for different URL types.

01:22:37   And the example there is like for podcasts,

01:22:39   I should be able to, there should just be a podcast URL.

01:22:42   And if I tap it, iOS should be able to know

01:22:46   what my podcast app is or ask me and let me say,

01:22:48   "Yes, this is my podcast app."

01:22:50   and from then on, it opens that app.

01:22:53   All of these things kind of go together,

01:22:55   and it's clearly just not been a priority for Apple.

01:22:58   And so, yes, it would be better if iOS could do that.

01:23:03   What are the chances?

01:23:05   I don't know.

01:23:06   I feel like it's something that they have to get to

01:23:09   eventually, but it's probably not been

01:23:11   a high priority for them.

01:23:13   Apple has a really,

01:23:17   Apple seems to have a really high opinion

01:23:18   of its first party apps, which is funny,

01:23:20   'cause a lot of them are not that interesting.

01:23:23   Mail is a great example where that is an app

01:23:25   that feels like it has just never been touched.

01:23:28   And I realize it's got some features

01:23:29   that it didn't have before, but it feels so old.

01:23:32   And maybe some of that is that email feels old in general,

01:23:34   but mail feels really old and like they are,

01:23:38   it's like, talk about your legacy product that they do,

01:23:42   I just wanna keep floating along.

01:23:43   It feels a little bit like that.

01:23:44   And other people are trying interesting things

01:23:46   with mail apps.

01:23:47   And so it is frustrating that Apple is sort of like

01:23:49   not trying interesting things in mail,

01:23:51   but also not letting people integrate directly

01:23:55   where all the mail stuff just feeds to a different app.

01:23:58   So I hope it happens eventually,

01:23:59   but I think there are technical issues

01:24:02   and it's just a matter of attention.

01:24:04   - When I read this question,

01:24:06   the first thing that jumped into my head,

01:24:08   to the answer to what are the hurdles that prevent it?

01:24:12   My answer was just Apple.

01:24:14   Like they just, I just believe that for a long time,

01:24:17   maybe even still, I reckon even still,

01:24:20   they just think that there is no point

01:24:23   that their apps are good enough?

01:24:25   - Apple can't, doesn't seem to be able to conceive,

01:24:29   it's funny because they have to hold two thoughts,

01:24:31   two opposing thoughts in the collective Apple brain at once.

01:24:34   One of which is we have all these great third-party apps,

01:24:37   including these innovative calendars

01:24:38   and innovative mail programs.

01:24:39   And then their other mind has to say,

01:24:42   we've deeply integrated mail and calendar with the system

01:24:45   and they're great.

01:24:46   And, you know, that's fascinating

01:24:51   that both of those things can be true at once.

01:24:54   So yeah, but I think you're right.

01:24:56   I think the mindset within Apple clearly is

01:24:58   this is good enough.

01:24:59   Now, the fact is those apps are used probably by 95% of users

01:25:04   if not 98% of users.

01:25:05   - Because what other choice do you have, right?

01:25:07   Like in certain instances.

01:25:08   - Well, people don't even look in the app store

01:25:12   for replacements to calendar and mail.

01:25:13   They have calendar and mail,

01:25:14   they're integrated with the system, that's it.

01:25:16   And that's why Apple doesn't prioritize this,

01:25:18   is because it is an edge case.

01:25:22   Most people just use the stock apps.

01:25:24   Most people use Maps and Safari too,

01:25:26   for that very reason.

01:25:28   - Yeah, but like, you know, there is,

01:25:30   the other one that was in this argument forever

01:25:33   was custom keyboards, and they did that.

01:25:35   You know, so it's like-- - They did.

01:25:36   - Custom keyboards was when everything changed.

01:25:39   So it's like, oh, they will do stuff

01:25:42   that we assume they're never gonna do,

01:25:43   which like, it for me at least,

01:25:45   reignited the lost hope of replacing the first party apps.

01:25:50   The reason that I want, you know, I don't,

01:25:53   we spoke about this in last week's episode, right?

01:25:56   With the apps that we use, I use replacement apps

01:26:00   for like really significant things, including Chrome.

01:26:04   I use Chrome, right?

01:26:05   Which is like, that is a daily test in patience,

01:26:09   like when dealing with iOS.

01:26:11   But one of the reasons that I believe

01:26:14   that this can happen is there are so many third-party apps

01:26:19   that allow me to choose what web browser I want to use.

01:26:23   So I know that this is a thing that third-party developers

01:26:27   have worked out how to do this.

01:26:28   Apple can do this.

01:26:30   It's just whether they want to or not.

01:26:32   And it seems like right now they don't want to.

01:26:35   - Yeah, it is weird given that, yeah,

01:26:40   it's this in-between where I understand building mail

01:26:43   and calendar to be for the most common use

01:26:46   because it's going to be commonly used.

01:26:48   But it would be nice then if you said,

01:26:50   and for our users who prefer other things

01:26:52   because they need to go beyond,

01:26:55   we give you this ability to swap these in.

01:26:58   And that's the frustration, right?

01:27:01   Is like, I don't want to say mail is bad

01:27:05   because it's not built for the 2% of people

01:27:08   who would use these awesome, weird features, right?

01:27:11   I don't wanna say that.

01:27:12   I think mail could be better for everybody,

01:27:14   but I understand why it's not built for the power users.

01:27:16   It has to be built for everyone.

01:27:18   But if you're gonna do that, it would be awfully nice

01:27:20   if you could take those power users,

01:27:22   those people who download third-party apps

01:27:24   to replace the default apps,

01:27:25   if they could say, "This is my email program now."

01:27:28   And I do think they will probably get there at some point.

01:27:30   The keyboard is a great example of that.

01:27:32   - If you would like to submit questions for us to answer

01:27:36   at the end of the show,

01:27:37   or questions for us to give our opinions on at least,

01:27:40   because there isn't always an answer.

01:27:42   You can send in questions by just tweeting

01:27:45   at #AskUpgrade out into the world.

01:27:48   Just send a tweet with the hashtag #AskUpgrade

01:27:50   and we may pick it for a future episode.

01:27:53   I guess if you want to send examples of interesting parables

01:27:57   you can send them to @JSnell on Twitter

01:28:00   because this is clearly Jason's like thing right now.

01:28:03   He's into deep parables and metaphors.

01:28:06   This has been like clearly shown on today's episode.

01:28:10   - So I think if you go to the incomparable--

01:28:12   - A blind man, an elephant, and a scorpion

01:28:16   get into a Honda Civic.

01:28:18   - If you go to the incomparable.com,

01:28:20   you can find some of Jason's work,

01:28:22   including the upcoming ParablePod,

01:28:24   which I think will be coming any day now

01:28:26   on the incomparable.

01:28:27   Jason is a host of many technology-focused shows

01:28:31   and creativity-focused shows here on Relay FM as well.

01:28:34   Go to relay.fm and you can find those.

01:28:36   I will recommend people check out Download

01:28:39   If they never have before Download is a weekly technology news show which focuses on technology

01:28:46   companies as a whole as opposed to a strict lens on one or the other as many shows that

01:28:52   we do here or that we listen to have.

01:28:56   What Download does is tries to kind of spread that out a little bit more so you may hear

01:29:00   a story about Microsoft and Google and SpaceX as well as just what's going on with Apple.

01:29:06   I am @imikeyke on Twitter and I host many shows here at Relay FM as well. Go to relay.fm/shows

01:29:14   and pick something else out there. If I was going to make a recommendation to you today

01:29:18   I would recommend a show that I do called Playing for Fun which is a show that I do

01:29:21   with Tiff Ahment and it is a video game show but even if you don't like video games I think

01:29:26   that there is still some enjoyment to be had because the show is just about two friends

01:29:31   just talking about what they like about a specific video game. So it's just two people

01:29:35   just having fun and talking positively about something.

01:29:39   And that can be a nice break sometimes from a lot of the stuff that we take in in our

01:29:43   daily lives.

01:29:44   Thank you to Pingdom and Linode and Slack for their support of this week's episode.

01:29:50   Most of all, as always, thank you for taking the time out of your busy lives to listen

01:29:54   to me and Jason talk about Powerables.

01:29:57   You can go to relay.fm/upgrades/188 for today's show notes and we'll be back next time.

01:30:03   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:30:06   - The Upgrade Podcast.

01:30:07   We talk about Apple stuff.

01:30:09   Goodbye, Myke Hurley.

01:30:11   - What was that?

01:30:12   - I told you I would do a haiku at the end.

01:30:14   - Oh!

01:30:15   Yes.

01:30:17   (laughing)

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