171: Really Weird Chess Game


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 171.

00:00:12   Today's show is brought to you by Eero, Squarespace, and Simple Contacts.

00:00:18   My name is Myke Hurley. I am joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:21   Hi, Jason Snell.

00:00:22   Hi, Myke Hurley. You're not in your usual location, are you?

00:00:25   You are somewhere else.

00:00:26   I'm in Seattle right now, Jason,

00:00:28   We're going to talk about that in a moment, but we need to start today's episode with

00:00:32   our hashtag SnellTalk question.

00:00:34   And today's question comes from Dan.

00:00:37   And Dan wants to know.

00:00:38   So, Dan Morin?

00:00:39   No, this is a different...

00:00:40   Well, it's a secret.

00:00:41   Oh, okay.

00:00:42   It's Dan, last name withheld.

00:00:43   Okay, good.

00:00:44   If you had a magic wand and could give the iPhone any feature, what feature would that

00:00:49   be?

00:00:50   Oh my God.

00:00:52   This is such a great question.

00:00:54   There's like a whole...

00:00:55   It's a big one.

00:00:56   Dan who last name withheld I could write a whole article about this and I might because

00:01:02   this is such a great premise. This is such a great premise. I so just off the top of

00:01:09   my head because I did not prepare for Snell Talk in advance because that would be contrary

00:01:13   to the rules of Snell Talk. Cheating. Oh man. I'm tempted to say so the things I'm not going

00:01:19   to pick because this is how you do this when you do this is you talk about the things you're

00:01:22   not going to choose and then you choose so you can talk about more things. I thought

00:01:26   about foldable so I could just like fold it over and stick it in my pocket. I thought

00:01:30   about glare free so like literally any angle outside in the sun you can read clearly like

00:01:38   a Kindle basically. Yep. Yep. But I'm gonna go with unbreakable. That was on my list.

00:01:45   That's my I think if there's any single thing that Apple or any other smartphone maker can

00:01:51   do to make their phone better if there was a single thing I could choose, I think I would

00:01:58   choose, if you drop it, it isn't a tragedy that costs hundreds of dollars to repair or

00:02:04   replace. That's what I'd choose. That's what I'd choose. Unbreakable. What about you?

00:02:08   Well considering Dan has given us a magic wand, I want to break the laws of physics

00:02:13   because it's magic, right? It's not like he said to me, if he said "Oh, Johnny Ive said

00:02:18   you could have any feature, right?

00:02:20   Then maybe Unbreakable they could achieve

00:02:22   more easily than what I want,

00:02:24   which is a true SLR quality camera.

00:02:27   - Oh, that's a great one.

00:02:29   That's a great one.

00:02:30   - It is just, not only is it just the most used camera,

00:02:33   it is the very best camera in the world.

00:02:36   There are no software features needed for portrait mode

00:02:38   because the cameras can just do it

00:02:40   and they can zoom incredibly.

00:02:43   I want like a--

00:02:43   - It's got all the lenses.

00:02:44   - I may as well just have a 5D.

00:02:46   - Exactly.

00:02:47   It's just all built in, all lenses built in, one camera.

00:02:51   And I see what you mean about the Magic Wand, because you would probably need, if you didn't

00:02:55   have a camera bump the size of a car, you would need Time Lord technology where it's

00:03:01   bigger on the inside.

00:03:02   Exactly.

00:03:03   And I feel like that, you know, there were ways to consider Unbreakable, and I feel like

00:03:07   they could get closer and closer to Unbreakable over time, and I don't think that they will

00:03:12   get as close to SLR, because it's just, you can keep making it better.

00:03:16   But SLR cameras will keep getting better and it will keep like, you know, it's like kind

00:03:20   of holding the iPhone away at an arm's length would be my expectation.

00:03:23   Uh, yeah.

00:03:24   That's a great one.

00:03:26   I would like to see both of these things.

00:03:27   One of them is more likely than the other, but that's, you can see I'm already altering

00:03:31   the premise for the column I write about this where it'll be "Dream features that are realistic"

00:03:37   or something like that.

00:03:38   Anyway, thanks to Dan, last name withheld, for presenting me with a column idea.

00:03:42   Awesome.

00:03:43   You would like to submit a question to open a future episode and maybe spark a column

00:03:49   to be written somewhere under Jason Snell Media Property.

00:03:53   You can tweet with the hashtag SnellTalk and that will go into our document and we'll pick

00:03:57   you for a later show hopefully.

00:03:59   So that's hashtag SnellTalk, any tweet and we'll be able to get a question for the beginning

00:04:04   of the show.

00:04:05   Now, it's very important, Jason.

00:04:07   This is very important.

00:04:08   Yeah, see, upgrade is...

00:04:09   [

00:04:24   left. It may have, you may have already lost out, you may have missed it. I mean

00:04:28   we've been telling you for weeks so you shouldn't miss but the voting will close

00:04:32   on the 14th of December so my advice to you would be to get your vote in on by

00:04:38   the 13th because I will be closing voting on the 14th. We will be using

00:04:45   magic formulas and algorithms to determine who has been voted an upgradey

00:04:53   winner by the Upgradians along with our input which will be added an episode

00:05:00   that will be released on the most appropriate day January the 1st so

00:05:05   you're gonna be getting the 2017 Upgrading at a point where it can there

00:05:10   can be no more upgraded discussion right like it's it's the end 2017 is ended so

00:05:16   there have been tons hundreds and hundreds of responses which I'm very

00:05:21   excited about. Make sure that you are one of those people and get your opinions in for

00:05:26   the upgradees. Yeah, it's very exciting and I think that's going to be a fun, it's always

00:05:31   a fun one. This is the fourth annual upgradees, which is amazing because it's way better when

00:05:36   that number before annual is higher than one. And as you know, I have a thing about that.

00:05:43   And January 1st, perfect. It's going to be good if you're traveling, if you're recovering

00:05:49   from a hangover if your whatever your story, I predict the upgrade is will be the perfect

00:05:54   solution for your long car ride, your long flight or just to soothe that headache.

00:06:02   So I introduced a new segment on the show last week, podcasting tips and hoped that

00:06:07   people would want to hear about it and they do. So I got a lot of feedback from people

00:06:14   that who were really interested in it. There are a couple that weren't and so what we're

00:06:18   we're going to do is we're going to balance it. Like this is not going to be a thing that

00:06:21   we do every week. It's going to be something that we probably couple up with Ask Upgrade

00:06:26   because it fits quite nicely with that segment. So you can expect this to return in the near

00:06:31   future. We have a couple of questions. So really just send those in with the hashtag

00:06:39   #AskUpgrade. It may be better for these ones specifically for the time being that you include

00:06:43   me in the tweet because then I'm more likely to be able to pick it out. So if you could

00:06:48   just tweet at me but use the hashtag #AskUpgrade as well so it goes into both places and I'm

00:06:53   going to start collecting some of those up and we'll answer them every now and then.

00:06:57   But the reason, but they will be, I expect meatier than a regular AskUpgrade question.

00:07:04   Because this, it's stuff that I really want to be able to pick out and go into detail

00:07:07   on. And I have some, I'm also just building some topics of my own that I want to talk

00:07:12   about as opposed to just getting them from questions, like things that I think

00:07:15   are helpful. And that has been incredibly underscored with where and why I'm in

00:07:21   Seattle right now. So I've been at an event called PodCon, which is the podcast

00:07:27   equivalent of VidCon. It's created by one of the VidCon founders, Hank Green. And

00:07:34   this event has been amazing. It is and has been like a real mix of stuff

00:07:41   from like a fan event, because it's been a bunch of live shows, to events for creators,

00:07:48   which is stuff that I was more involved in. Like I did a panel about podcast networks,

00:07:52   I moderated that panel, and it was incredible. I had so much fun doing that. Roman Mars and

00:08:00   Justin McElroy and Christy and Joseph from Night Vale and Gabby Dum were on my panel,

00:08:07   a real mix of fantastic podcasters. I did create a chat which is awesome where

00:08:12   everybody just sat down and we spoke through some stuff and it was amazing

00:08:16   and I will say as well like they haven't asked me to do this but I do want to

00:08:19   mention it you can actually buy for $30 the audio from all of the panels at

00:08:26   PodCon which I really recommend like and that's something that you can still

00:08:30   buy it's called their remote attendance and they're gonna be putting those out

00:08:33   in a couple of weeks. So if you are interested in this stuff, this is something that I would

00:08:39   recommend that you go for because I'm going to be getting it because there were some panels I missed

00:08:45   and yeah it was really awesome. And so I've just been very aware over the last few days

00:08:53   of how many people want to start podcasting and I think it's amazing and I love seeing all the

00:08:58   interest that people have in this stuff. It's fantastic.

00:09:01   That's great. I was going to ask you about PodCon being, is it about people who do podcasts

00:09:08   or is it about people who listen to podcasts? And your answer is it was both, which makes

00:09:13   sense.

00:09:14   Yes, everyone. Which is how, this is how VidCon is. Like, VidCon is a fan event for like YouTubers,

00:09:20   but also an event for aspiring YouTubers to learn. And I really like that model. There's

00:09:28   a really interesting crossover there. So yeah, I think it's, I've been, I've really enjoyed

00:09:33   that. And I think that the mix is very good and I sincerely hope that they can continue

00:09:38   to do this. This is the first ever PodCon and I really hope that it's something that

00:09:41   they can do again because it would become an unmissable event on my calendar.

00:09:45   Yeah, I'm really intrigued by it. There are reasons that we're about to get to why I didn't

00:09:49   go. I would have attended otherwise. And there was definitely a whole contingent there from

00:09:54   the incomparable. I saw a picture that was just like a huge number of incomparable people

00:09:59   there. There was a photo that I saw that had like six incomparable people plus Alex Cox

00:10:06   and Doug Beal in it. That was pretty awesome. So that was great. I'm sorry that I couldn't

00:10:12   be there because I love it when all those people I know were together in one place.

00:10:16   That's pretty awesome. But I wanted to talk for a minute about the flip side of this,

00:10:21   which is you and I both had experiences this weekend, just completely coincidentally, that

00:10:27   I felt like really gave me a great alternate perspective about what we do by seeing it

00:10:34   from the other side. And I don't mean this in a "aren't we great" kind of way. I mean

00:10:41   it in a "what is it like to be on both ends of a podcast?" It was just a good perspective

00:10:48   shift and because I know that you met some podcasters whose work you love for the first

00:10:55   time this weekend, right? And so did I. And so we got to both be podcast fans this weekend,

00:11:02   which I think is, I think was, it certainly changed my perspective a little bit and got

00:11:06   me thinking about it. How about you? Did you, who'd you meet?

00:11:10   Well, the big one for me, like there were a bunch of people at this event who I'm aware

00:11:15   are through various things and like really respect but I got to meet the

00:11:19   McElroy brothers and their dad Clint and of this year I have become a huge fan of their

00:11:29   work like that like from the adventure zone to Mabimbam and everything

00:11:33   related and so my brother my brother and me for those who have not or not in the

00:11:39   in the side. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam. Mabimbam.

00:12:09   And it has been really amazing for me to meet these people because I haven't had an experience

00:12:18   like this in a very long time.

00:12:20   My favorite podcasts were always technology podcasts, right?

00:12:23   That's how it's been for so long.

00:12:26   And I have already met all of my favorite podcasts up to this point.

00:12:33   So it's been a long time since I've had that experience of going to WWDC for the first

00:12:38   time, that kind of thing. And so it has been kind of wonderful for me to be able to go

00:12:43   through that again. I've enjoyed it a lot to have that experience of like, "I love your

00:12:49   work" kind of thing, which I haven't been able to do for a while. So it was really nice.

00:12:52   And that was my experience too. And that's really what struck me is it is a good reminder

00:12:58   of, on so many levels, it's a good reminder of what it's like listening to a podcast and

00:13:06   being the audience and being excited about the thing that you're listening to and the

00:13:12   people and the connection that you feel with people you haven't met. I think that might

00:13:16   be the most powerful thing for me is the power of this medium in terms of audio and getting

00:13:22   to know people's personalities and the ins and outs of their life. It's not a 700-word

00:13:30   straight-up article that you write every month like I did at Macworld for years. It's this

00:13:35   long conversation over many episodes, just upgrade alone, right? You and I have had this

00:13:39   conversation over 171 episodes over three plus years. And you make connections and you

00:13:46   know things about people's lives and their personality quirks and all of these things

00:13:50   and that's the power of the medium. And so for me, I met also Maximum Fun Network podcasters,

00:14:00   The Flophouse this weekend because The Flophouse, which is my favorite podcast, did their first

00:14:04   live show in San Francisco and I went. I thought about flying to other cities to see them live

00:14:10   and then they announced they were coming to San Francisco. And it was a great event. I

00:14:14   hung out beforehand with Jesse Friedman who does Almanac Brewing and we had him on the

00:14:21   beer episode of The Incomparable which people should, if you like beer you should totally

00:14:24   listen to. It's got Marco Arment on it and a bunch of other people. And we drink beer.

00:14:32   what that episode's about. And so we visited with him a little bit and then we went over

00:14:36   to the venue. It was SantaCon in San Francisco, so there were a lot of drunk people wearing

00:14:41   Santa costumes on the street. It was super weird. But we get into the venue and I got

00:14:44   to watch the Flop House and I'm just sitting there thinking, "I know these guys. I love

00:14:49   these guys." It was an amazing experience because it was not like seeing a musician

00:14:58   you love or a play with an actor you love or watching a film, it was this kind of out

00:15:07   of body experience of, they, you know, I've never met these people, but I know way more

00:15:14   about them and their quirks and their personalities and all of this than anyone else who I don't

00:15:23   know personally. Like, they are in this tier between people whose work I respect and people

00:15:30   I know personally. They're like, I feel like I know them personally because of that connection.

00:15:36   And obviously I respect their work, I love it. It's just a weird place to be in. And

00:15:41   you know, I had a great time. Afterward, I had three people come up to me and say, "Are

00:15:45   you Jason Snell from The Incomparable?" Which is like, okay, now the shoe is on the other

00:15:48   foot a little bit, which is also a little bit strange, but wonderful. Very nice of them.

00:15:52   And then I got to, you know, I met, I didn't get a chance to meet Stuart Wellington because

00:15:54   he was surrounded by his fans and I noticed that Elliott Kaelin was very, I mean Dan McCoy

00:16:00   who I also talked to who I think is great, who's kind of the ringmaster of that and he

00:16:05   has to keep the show going and I really identify with him as a podcast host that he has to

00:16:11   try to keep things on the rails. So I love talking to him and his brother does a show

00:16:15   on the Incomparable Network. And I saw Elliott kind of edging for the stairs because he was

00:16:19   trying to get out of there very clearly, slowly, so he could talk to people, but also he wanted

00:16:23   to eventually leave. And so I didn't get a chance to talk to Stuart, but I talked to

00:16:28   Dan and Elliot. And it was, again, a little bit of an out-of-body experience. I mean,

00:16:32   mitigated by Twitter, like one of the nice things about something like Twitter is that

00:16:35   I feel like you and I have interactions with the people who listen to our shows all the

00:16:38   time on Twitter and we get to know them and we meet them at some events then. And you're

00:16:41   like, "Oh, it's you from Twitter or Slack or whatever." And that was helpful in that

00:16:46   when I met them, I was like, "Oh, your brother John does a podcast on my network." And actually

00:16:52   what they said was, "Oh, I thought that was you." I was like, "Okay, so that's kind of

00:16:55   cool." So it's like, I vaguely am aware of your existence, but still talking to these

00:17:00   voices that have been in my ears for years now, it was just a great experience. I mean,

00:17:08   it was a fun show, but it was also just kind of an amazing experience to process in terms

00:17:12   of how much the people I know and love from podcasts, how much more they reside in my

00:17:21   head than more kind of abstract people who's like whose work I respect but who are really

00:17:29   removed from me in a way that podcasters aren't.

00:17:32   Without a shadow of a doubt. Like, and I guess it's it is worth just saying at this point

00:17:37   just for saying it, if you feel that way about us, we take that with the most respect and

00:17:47   pleasure wonder that you ever possibly could.

00:17:51   If somebody feels about us like I feel about the flophouse guys, I mean, my first reaction

00:18:00   would be like, "Wow, you shouldn't like us that much." But that's the thing, right? So

00:18:05   have immense respect for it because I am feeling that and it would be incredibly flattering

00:18:11   if somebody had even a fraction of the connection that I feel to those guys with us. So yes,

00:18:16   that was the great thing about the experience for me ultimately was not just that I got

00:18:20   to see these guys and meet them in person and all that. That was great. But it really

00:18:24   it was kind of humbling in a way in terms of understanding the power of this medium

00:18:28   and how important the connection is with the people who listen to your podcast if you're

00:18:34   you're a podcaster and not to take it for granted and to understand how, you

00:18:39   know, how important that relationship is. Even though it is weirdly asymmetrical,

00:18:43   it still exists and is a real thing. Yeah, it is amazing and wonderful

00:18:50   and great to still be a podcast fan as well as a podcaster. I love that feeling,

00:18:56   like that we can still be both and that makes me very happy. Yeah. Should we take a break?

00:19:00   Yeah, I think so.

00:19:01   All right, today's show is brought to you in part by a new sponsor, and that is Simple

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00:19:47   Try my best there.

00:19:48   Ophthalmologist, I get it.

00:19:49   Spelled weirdly, doesn't sound weird, but spelled strangely.

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00:20:24   Now Jason, I believe that you went through and ordered with simple contacts and I was

00:20:28   wondering what that was like.

00:20:29   Yeah, it was a good process.

00:20:31   I went through the thing where you run it in an app and it wants to check out your vision

00:20:35   to make sure that your corrected vision with your existing prescription is okay because

00:20:41   that's part of this.

00:20:42   Obviously there are a lot of regulations here and their goal is not to be your eye doctor.

00:20:46   Their goal is to let you buy contacts with your existing prescription.

00:20:50   So I went through that and that checked out.

00:20:52   have my brand of contact lens which has got an astigmatism correction. It's fairly, it

00:21:00   took us like five tries with me and my eye doctor to get to the point where we got the

00:21:05   right kind and this was about ten years ago where it was like the right exact right one

00:21:09   because I had lots of weird things with particular like aperture size and it's just, I don't

00:21:15   want to get into it but it was a lot. So yeah, that was all pretty amazing. And I will say,

00:21:19   know, when they say that this is not a replacement for your doctor, they're serious about that,

00:21:23   to the point where there are a lot of limitations if you have eye problems. And the goal here

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00:21:38   Yeah, it's like, it is a simple way for you to get something that you need, right? Like,

00:21:42   it's not super easy otherwise to get a hold of these things. So that is why simple contacts

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00:21:51   for a company that sells eyeglasses, right?

00:21:54   It's the same idea that you can buy this stuff

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00:22:26   Ahoy, contact lenses.

00:22:28   We thank Simple Contacts for their support of this show.

00:22:32   That was just one of those examples

00:22:34   where upgrade could not work.

00:22:36   Could not use upgrade with them.

00:22:38   They needed it for other stuff,

00:22:40   which is a thing that we run into a bunch.

00:22:43   So we have ahoy.

00:22:44   - Jason, big companies are fighting again.

00:22:47   - Oh boy, I will point people to last week's episode

00:22:51   of Download, which if you haven't heard it,

00:22:53   is the news show that I do here on Relay

00:22:57   where I get a couple of guests

00:22:59   and we talk about general tech news.

00:23:01   It's not even--

00:23:02   - Yeah, the news across the entire industry,

00:23:04   which is more than we cover here.

00:23:05   - Yeah, we actually spent a lot of time last week

00:23:07   on the Intel getting kind of kicked to the curb by Microsoft

00:23:12   for this new version of Windows

00:23:13   that's running on Qualcomm processors. So again, outside the Apple zone, but I think

00:23:17   really interesting stuff. And we did spend some time talking about this, which I think

00:23:21   in that episode, we wanted to guess referred to it as like babies fighting. It's like they're

00:23:26   the giants of the industry, but they're like babies, which is Google and Amazon. It's funny.

00:23:32   We'll talk a little bit about Amazon and Apple's relationship and how that changed last week,

00:23:35   but Google and Amazon are at each other's throats. And it started with this idea of

00:23:42   the Amazon Echo Show. It had a YouTube app and then it went away and then Amazon seems

00:23:47   to have brought it back as a web view and now Google is saying that they're blocking

00:23:51   the web view of the of YouTube videos on the Echo Show. But this last week it got taken

00:23:58   up a whole other level which is Google basically saying we're just going to take YouTube off

00:24:02   of all of Amazon's devices starting January 1st. And going to the point I thought maybe

00:24:07   Maybe the, they'll say it was customer service, but I would say it's also pettiness and trying

00:24:12   to get, put pressure on Amazon.

00:24:15   They pushed a notification, I believe, as far as I can tell, I saw it.

00:24:19   They pushed a notification to Fire TV users saying, "As of January 1st, you won't be able

00:24:24   to watch YouTube on this Fire TV anymore.

00:24:27   Sorry."

00:24:28   Oh boy, jerks.

00:24:30   And also as well, like why it was funny to me is that we get to the, for the third time

00:24:34   to mention that Google has pulled YouTube support from the Echo Show again, so that's

00:24:40   gone. Yeah, so that's gone now. Like that's completely gone. And that baffles me because

00:24:43   it's a webview, which means that there could be a back and forth here, where Amazon starts

00:24:49   to just pose the browser in the Echo Show as an iPad or something, and what's Google

00:24:56   gonna do then? I don't know. Like there could be a back and forth there, because I'm not

00:25:01   sure it's illegal to supply your users with a web browser that can access YouTube, right?

00:25:07   I mean, would Amazon be sued by Google over allowing their web browser to connect to the

00:25:13   YouTube dot com? I don't know. So that's weird.

00:25:17   But so Google actually released a statement for this. They gave to The Verge. I just want

00:25:21   to read this out. So this is from a spokesperson over at Google. Given this lack of reciprocity.

00:25:29   Oh, reciprocity.

00:25:30   Oh my gosh, what is wrong with me today?

00:25:31   - It's reciprocity. - I can't read.

00:25:32   It's just too early in the day for me.

00:25:33   - It's because you're in America and we're in your brain

00:25:35   and we're rewriting the way you pronounce things.

00:25:37   - Given this lack of reciprocity,

00:25:39   we are no longer supporting YouTube

00:25:41   on the Echo Show and Fire TV,

00:25:43   and they are referring to the fact

00:25:45   that Amazon refuses to sell items

00:25:47   like the Chromecast and Google Home on their store.

00:25:51   So this is the way that Google is reacting to this.

00:25:54   They're upset that their stuff isn't sold on Amazon stores,

00:25:58   so they are pulling what they can pull which is to make all of their connected devices worse

00:26:06   by pulling YouTube from them. Like so this is this is kind of like a cold war I feel like it

00:26:11   kind of has that feel to me where it's like everyone's just doing really random like oh

00:26:16   random like really calculated things to try and upset other people but like not necessarily the

00:26:22   companies so then like they upset the users so then the users rally against it's like this weird

00:26:28   really weird chess game that everybody's paying. And the thing is these big

00:26:32   companies fight but their customers lose. Everybody's customers lose, right? People

00:26:37   will be mad at Google and mad at Amazon. And I don't... and it's like it's not... you're

00:26:43   not just upsetting Amazon's customers like the ones that aren't your customers.

00:26:48   You're also upsetting the people that want to look at your video platform.

00:26:53   watch YouTube are Google's customers, right? Yeah. So they're, they're, they're, they're

00:26:58   spiting. This is and this is infuriating, right? What what this is doing, it reminds me of when

00:27:04   a cable company and a broadcaster in this happens in the United States every so often,

00:27:11   they fail to come to an agreement. And what happens is their channels go away for a while.

00:27:15   And usually the cable company puts up a thing that says, you should call the broadcaster because they

00:27:20   "They are bad and didn't make a deal with us and it's their fault that this isn't there,"

00:27:25   when that's often not the case. And it's definitely, they're using, it's like two

00:27:29   divorcing parents using their children as proxies in their fight and making the children miserable.

00:27:35   That's the kind of thing that's going on here. It's really bad behavior. And the thing that

00:27:39   offends me the most about all of these scenarios is it's two incredibly profitable businesses that

00:27:45   that have decided to harm their joint customers because they're not fully engaged in one side

00:27:53   or the other. Like those kids, they have a mom and a dad. Seriously, Google is saying,

00:27:59   if you're an Amazon customer and a Google customer, we will punish you until Amazon

00:28:05   relents. And that's bad. Now, I can see the argument here where somebody's gonna say,

00:28:10   "But Amazon does that too." It's like, "Yeah, Amazon totally does that too. I'm not saying

00:28:14   one of these companies is better than the other. I'm saying that this is the giants

00:28:20   of the tech industry fighting each other for leverage and not caring if their customers

00:28:26   get sideswiped in the fight.

00:28:28   And I love this kind of closed-mindedness, this like, the inability to see what they're

00:28:35   doing. Like there is this expectation from Google where they're like, "Oh, people are

00:28:41   gonna get real mad at Amazon and they're gonna understand why this is such a

00:28:45   problem like they're gonna know why it's so bad that they don't sell Chromecast

00:28:50   like no one cares I don't care I don't care if Amazon sells Chromecast

00:28:56   right like yeah it's not a thing I'm gonna get mad about like a Amazon like

00:29:00   that's not a thing that users care about do I think it's crappy that Amazon

00:29:05   refuses to sell any devices that don't stream Amazon's video channels I do I

00:29:09   I think that's crappy. I think they have the right to do it, but I think it's crappy.

00:29:12   But I'm not going to get super mad about it and side with Google.

00:29:15   No, and also I hate the arrogance of it, because the arrogance of this is Google saying,

00:29:20   "YouTube is so important that if we remove it from devices, we can destroy those devices."

00:29:26   Or force them to come to the bargaining table, because without YouTube, those devices are useless.

00:29:32   And, you know, YouTube's important.

00:29:34   Can I just say though, like, they might be kind of right about that.

00:29:38   But like, I totally get what you're saying.

00:29:39   They might be right, although I'm skeptical.

00:29:41   YouTube is important.

00:29:43   I'm not sure not having YouTube is going to destroy any individual device, right?

00:29:49   It doesn't render them useless, but it makes them way less useful.

00:29:54   Like, they still have other uses, but I know like for me, and I think for many people,

00:29:58   it's like, well, you've just taken away the biggest source.

00:30:01   If you're a heavy, if you've got that box because you want to watch YouTube, then it's

00:30:07   absolutely the case. And can you imagine that? Let's just throw that out there. Hey, I love

00:30:12   YouTube. I also am an Amazon Prime customer. I bought an Amazon Fire TV. Yay, now I can

00:30:17   watch all my things. And then up comes the pop-up saying, "Oh yeah, you can't anymore."

00:30:21   That thing you bought for 50 bucks from Amazon, you can't use it for YouTube anymore. Buy

00:30:25   something else. Love Google. It's not, I mean, again, it is a fundamental disrespect for

00:30:31   customers. Making the customers a part of this, and I get it, I get why the leverage

00:30:34   is important. I get why Google wants a better deal with Amazon and is using the popularity

00:30:39   of YouTube to get the best deal they can. I get it. And Amazon does this too, and Apple

00:30:45   does this too. I get it. These are big companies. The problem is that it does show their fundamental

00:30:52   disrespect for their customers.

00:30:53   I can't really work out where this is going to go. Because we're going to talk about Amazon

00:31:01   and Apple in a moment. I mean, they clearly worked out their differences, because you

00:31:05   can buy Apple TVs on Amazon and there's now Amazon Prime on Apple TV. Like that's whatever

00:31:10   it is that they did together is what Google and Amazon need to do together. They need

00:31:15   to come to an agreement, right? And they will, right? They will. It's inevitable they will,

00:31:20   because Google wants access to Amazon's customers and Amazon wants their customers to have access

00:31:24   to YouTube and Google services. And they'll make a deal. They'll make a deal. It might

00:31:28   take a while and it's gonna hurt customers in the meantime for both companies but they'll

00:31:35   find a way to work it out. You know, because in the end it is in their both, it is in both

00:31:40   companies' best interest to make a deal. This is all about where the line gets drawn and

00:31:47   using leverage to determine where the line gets drawn and this is, you know, we see this

00:31:52   all the time. We see this in politics across the world, not just in one country. We see

00:31:57   this in a lot of places where when things are bad, it's when the people in positions

00:32:01   of power fighting over details don't care at the fallout on everyone else about their

00:32:10   fight over the details. And that's what you're seeing here, which is in the end, Amazon wants

00:32:14   YouTube on their devices, Google wants YouTube on Amazon's devices because it wants to be

00:32:18   everywhere. This is all about getting one side to make concessions and where the lines

00:32:25   get drawn. It's a negotiation being played out in public. And again, you know, I think

00:32:33   I get why they're doing it, but I think it shows a fundamental disrespect for their customers

00:32:37   and that we'd be better off keeping these negotiations in the background and not do,

00:32:44   you know, and not doing this, we're pulling our app kind of nonsense because it's, it's

00:32:49   silly. And in that way, the Amazon-Apple negotiation is kinda better in that it happened mostly

00:32:55   behind the scenes. There was not a lot of kind of like pulling, you know, putting features

00:33:00   in and then pulling them back out, which is, I think, the biggest problem.

00:33:04   Yeah, like the Kindle app didn't get removed. Right. From the App Store. The worst thing

00:33:09   that happened was that Comixology lost its store, but Comixology lost its store when

00:33:15   that was bought by Amazon. That wasn't the case where Amazon granted that. So I'm willing

00:33:19   to give that a pass as like it's a side effect of ComiXology being bought by Amazon. But

00:33:25   yeah, ComiXology and Kindle app didn't get pulled off of iOS because of this. And of

00:33:31   course, why? Because it would have hurt Amazon more than it would have hurt Apple.

00:33:35   So Amazon Prime is now on the Apple TV. We were promised it before the end of the year

00:33:40   and the end of the year is getting close. And all of a sudden it just appeared.

00:33:44   video. Here it is. There it is. On the fourth generation Apple TV, the Apple TV 4K, and

00:33:53   the third generation Apple TV, the thin black hockey puck. The one without apps. The one

00:34:00   without apps. It would just show up or you restart and it would just show up. It was

00:34:04   using their old channel for new video services that they would just update every now and

00:34:12   then and boom all of a sudden there's something else. So there are a lot of them out there.

00:34:18   They were selling them, you know. Are they still selling them? If not, then they were

00:34:22   just selling them until like recently. So it's good.

00:34:25   Yeah, I think they had it as the cheap option. I think.

00:34:28   Yeah, it may not be there anymore, but it's, yeah, until recently it was definitely out

00:34:33   there. And so that was a surprise to me and I think that's great that it's not just on

00:34:37   the latest one because I just assumed Apple would never bother putting it back on the

00:34:41   previous generation but they did. So I expect that this was just in time for

00:34:46   Grand Tour season 2. Yeah I suspect that's the hook. It was a couple of days before and like you know

00:34:50   there's precedent of this like before Grand Tour season 1 Amazon opened like

00:34:55   Amazon Prime Video in a bunch of new countries that hadn't had it previously

00:34:59   and even in some countries it's like it's just gonna be Grand Tour for a

00:35:04   little bit and then there's gonna be more stuff coming later like they really

00:35:07   wanted to make sure that people were seeing this because it is a huge show for them.

00:35:14   And they obviously want to be able to put as many eyeballs on it as they can.

00:35:19   By the way, the Apple TV third generation was being sold until last year, last fall, a year ago.

00:35:25   14 months ago that they stopped selling it. So it's relatively recently.

00:35:29   Yeah, it actually made me mad. I just finished watching an Amazon series the day before this happened.

00:35:34   So I watched it all on the kind of crappy TV app that is in my 4K TV, which is where I was watching all the Amazon video.

00:35:44   And so we watched all 10 episodes of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, which is a great show. I recommend it highly to everybody.

00:35:49   And then it showed up and I'm like, "Oh, man, come on, come on."

00:35:54   Although one thing I've noticed about this app is that it is—so in their notes on their website, they said it does 5.1 audio.

00:36:03   and I checked and it doesn't. It does 4K video but not 5.1 audio.

00:36:08   And they actually changed the notes to say 5.1 audio coming soon.

00:36:12   So apparently that didn't make it, but it is going to make it, but it's not there yet.

00:36:15   They do have the infrastructure for it, and it's on other devices,

00:36:18   and something apparently happened and they didn't get it in there right away.

00:36:23   But it looks... Funny thing about it, there's a lot of criticism about the Amazon app on Apple TV.

00:36:31   and it's not great, but it is to me, it's sort of in line with what all of these

00:36:36   major video providers are doing, which is they want it to look like their service

00:36:42   on all devices. They want those that service to look the same. So Netflix

00:36:49   looks the same everywhere, basically, and including on the on my TV, the app that

00:36:54   comes on my TV, which is, you know, not much of an app platform, but it's got a

00:36:59   Netflix button and if you press it you get Netflix and it looks just like it

00:37:03   looks on the Apple TV and likewise Amazon Prime Video actually think it's

00:37:07   better on the Apple TV than it is on my TV set because I'm the interface on my

00:37:10   TV set is is really ridiculous like it and reminds me of the the Fire TV

00:37:16   interface but kind of really badly done where you've got like press you can

00:37:21   press the button to the right to go over to tiles that are right to the right of

00:37:25   your selection but when you do it doesn't just move the selection over it

00:37:28   like redraws the whole screen and now you're in a whole new interface so it's

00:37:32   like wait a second I just wanted to go to that box and and the Amazon Prime

00:37:37   Video app is like no I've got a sorry that's a to the right it's a whole new

00:37:41   screen well what is that then it's like well those are fake those are just there

00:37:44   to show you what sorts of things are over there but when you click you go to

00:37:48   someplace else it's like I don't like that and I don't think the Apple TV app

00:37:52   quite does that which is good it's not great I don't love the Amazon Prime

00:37:56   video interface in general but I was a little surprised that people were

00:38:02   bringing out the conspiracy theories about like maybe this is just a web view

00:38:06   and it's it's the worst video app I've ever seen on the Apple TV and it's like

00:38:10   I don't know about that.

00:38:12   Oh my god have you ever actually used Apple's TV shows app? My god that is the

00:38:18   worst. I've used the NBC Sports app which has the most spectacular video control

00:38:26   features of any Apple TV app I've ever seen. They threw away the entire like tap

00:38:31   to go forward 10 seconds, tap to go back. Instead it's this weird like if you

00:38:34   swipe you get this strange video interface. You've got to pause it in order

00:38:41   to fast forward. It doesn't remember where you paused it. It remembers where

00:38:46   you dropped into playing again. So if you start watching at 10 minutes and you get

00:38:49   to 20 minutes and you need to move ahead to 25 minutes, when you press the button

00:38:54   it goes to 10 minutes and you have to remember what the time code is. You basically have

00:38:59   to tap it to see the time code so you can remember that so that when you pause it in

00:39:03   order to forward it, what I'm saying is that's a really bad interface. So if you think that

00:39:07   the Amazon TV interface on Apple TV is a bad interface, you have not seen the worst of

00:39:14   it. I think we can all agree that these apps could do a better job and I think really you

00:39:20   should keep to the standard video playback, you know, UI conventions of the Apple TV if

00:39:26   you can. But I don't know. I found it bizarre that people were just, do people not understand

00:39:32   that all of these video services, like the Hulu app is a disaster. But it's not a disaster

00:39:37   because it's an app on the Apple TV. It's a disaster because Hulu redesigned its interface

00:39:42   and the new Hulu interface is a disaster. And that's just because it's Hulu and Netflix

00:39:48   is Netflix and Amazon is Amazon on all of these boxes basically as close as they can

00:39:53   get them on each platform.

00:39:54   Of course they are as well, right? Like in all of these situations, the companies that

00:40:00   have the most leverage are the apps. They are the service providers. Like Apple needs

00:40:06   them more than they need the Apple TV right now. You know, like Amazon will just keep

00:40:12   selling the Fire TV otherwise and keep building it into smart TVs. Like it is, I think it

00:40:17   is that and also like they have the ability to just go in and make the apps

00:40:21   the way that they want and they have their consistent experience and and the

00:40:25   thing is like I understand why people get mad because they want it to conform

00:40:29   or whatever but like I was saying about the TV app right like it looks nice but

00:40:32   it doesn't work very well like if I'm watching a TV show and I go into it like

00:40:36   it doesn't remember where I was last time and I have to scroll like six

00:40:40   seasons across to get to the episode that I want like they're all bad really

00:40:44   in their own way they just all look different I guess the I guess the future

00:40:47   of TV is apps with inconsistent interfaces, huh? Yeah, that's what it is, right? Turns

00:40:52   out, turns out, that's what they should have said on stage. And I just think that it's

00:40:56   like, it is ugly, but the thing is, the thing of all of these is, I don't care because I

00:41:02   just need to get it done quick. Like, I'm not scrolling these interfaces for 20 minutes

00:41:07   like I would a Twitter client. Like, I'm just waiting until, like, very quickly getting

00:41:12   in to watch the content that I want. I do that in the Netflix app because they keep

00:41:15   moving the list around and I can't find the freaking show I was just watching, right?

00:41:19   Because they want me to see everything else that's on there. And that's one of the things

00:41:22   that amazes me about Netflix. They must have metrics that show that it's functional for

00:41:25   them, but it's like, why is my list and what I've been watching recently not always the

00:41:31   first two things I see? And the answer is because they want to show you all the other

00:41:35   stuff that's on Netflix so you can go, "Oh, I didn't know that was on Netflix." And they're

00:41:39   deliberately like hiding what you want to see in order to make you go search for it.

00:41:43   I spend time in the Netflix interface, boy do I, scrolling around like, "Where is that?

00:41:48   Where is that thing?" I like literally was watching a show on Netflix and the next day

00:41:52   I came to the Netflix app and couldn't find it. And I was just watching it on Netflix

00:41:58   because it didn't want me to find it. I had to scroll up and down and then I had to go

00:42:01   side to side through a big list of tiles. Yeah, yeah. But that's the game. Again, look,

00:42:08   infractions against customers come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. And this too is

00:42:13   an example where there are a few different ways to do this. And one way is, what do our

00:42:19   customers want? And another one is, what do we want our customers to see? And they're

00:42:27   different sometimes. And it says a lot about a company how they prioritize column A versus

00:42:33   column B, like, do we want to force them through hoops to find what they want, because we need

00:42:39   to expose them to all the stuff we spent millions of dollars developing? Or do you prioritize

00:42:45   the viewing experience and say, like Netflix, that's the reason Netflix isn't in the TV

00:42:49   app, right? It's because Netflix wants to make you look at their interface and see all

00:42:54   the stuff that they've got in there. They don't care that you've been watching one show

00:42:57   and you want to hop right back into it. They specifically do not want that. They don't

00:43:02   want that to be put over in the TV app. They want to force you to launch their app and

00:43:07   look through all the stuff. That's their strategy. And it must work for them, presumably they're

00:43:13   measuring it, but it does suggest again that they made a choice to make the lives of their

00:43:18   customers more difficult.

00:43:19   I have a question for you. I don't know the answer to this. I don't know if you know the

00:43:22   answer to this. Does this app have 4K, like HDR stuff?

00:43:27   Yes, it has. Well, I don't have an HDR TV, but it definitely has 4K.

00:43:31   Excellent. That's so good. Because this is the thing, right? Look, I'll just suffer the

00:43:36   I just want all of my services on one box and now I finally have it because my TV had a bunch of stuff

00:43:42   But it didn't have my iTunes content now

00:43:44   I have everything and it's like whatever like just I don't care like I I just don't I don't care like I don't like the

00:43:51   Way any TV app Apple TV app looks like the fact that this doesn't look like Apple's one

00:43:57   Like I just like whatever, you know, like they're all bad the we should say the TV app

00:44:02   just officially dropped in the UK last week, right?

00:44:05   Yes, it showed up randomly on my devices at different times.

00:44:09   It's fine. I like the, you know, it's just, I can't, I've only looked at it on my iPhone and my

00:44:16   iPad. Right now, I can't work out what it's supposed to be doing for me

00:44:20   because all it seems like it is is just the old videos app.

00:44:24   So good, I guess. Like, I haven't worked out yet what this app is supposed to do.

00:44:32   Like, what is it supposed to be? Am I supposed to get live TV or something?

00:44:37   Well, that's one of the things that it is apparently capable of doing. It's also supposed to aggregate together the shows you're watching in different apps.

00:44:45   And this is why Netflix not participating is annoying. But, like, Hulu works with it and Amazon works with it now.

00:44:53   So theoretically, if I go to the TV app, I should see like,

00:44:57   there's a new episode of "Runaways" on Hulu

00:44:59   that you wanna watch, and you can pick up "Red Oaks"

00:45:03   where you left off on Amazon,

00:45:05   and you also have this show that you're watching

00:45:07   on Apple TV.

00:45:09   And the idea-- - It's like an aggregate.

00:45:11   - Yeah, the idea is it's supposed to bring all the shows

00:45:13   from all the apps and all the providers together

00:45:15   in one place so that you can just watch TV and pick.

00:45:19   And you can see, again, why Netflix doesn't want that,

00:45:21   because Netflix wants to control everything and show you everything that they've got.

00:45:26   So they're not participating in that, which is interesting that Amazon is.

00:45:30   Yeah, and it's got stuff, I mean, I'm looking at it now and it's kind of interesting. Like

00:45:34   it has shows on apps that I don't have. Right. So like it recommends other shows to me from

00:45:41   other TV providers. And there are some UK terrestrial TV providers in these lists. So

00:45:48   So yeah, I have BBC, ITV and Channel 5, like they're being shown to me.

00:45:53   So yeah, I guess there's stuff, right?

00:45:54   Like I guess there's stuff.

00:45:55   Oh, they've got Amazon Prime right there.

00:45:59   Like advertising the Grand Tour right on the front page of it.

00:46:02   I don't know what the difference between Watch Now and Store is, but they seem to be very

00:46:08   similar.

00:46:09   Is Watch Now supposed to be learning from me?

00:46:11   It doesn't seem like it is.

00:46:12   Give it time.

00:46:13   It's supposed to be.

00:46:14   Okay.

00:46:15   Yeah, I mean, 'cause it's recommending to me shows

00:46:17   that I've never watched before.

00:46:18   And Children's TV, we never watch Children's TV

00:46:21   because, spoiler alert, I don't have children.

00:46:24   But I'm sure Core ML will make that better over time.

00:46:29   Right, isn't that what's supposed to happen?

00:46:31   - Yeah.

00:46:32   - Something like that. - Sure.

00:46:33   - So I'm pleased, look, at the end of the day,

00:46:36   I'm happy to have Amazon Prime on my Apple TV now.

00:46:38   I'm pleased that they did it.

00:46:39   I wanna have that one box to rule them all

00:46:42   and Apple is now the closest for me.

00:46:43   Well that's the thing about the Apple TV is, assuming Apple TV remains with all of Apple's

00:46:49   stuff and all of these different service providers including now Amazon and Netflix and Hulu

00:46:54   and YouTube, right? You throw that in there and Apple has, because Apple only does its

00:47:00   own stuff on its own box, Apple TV has more than anyone, which was never the case before.

00:47:06   But that's only if you care about iTunes stuff. Until Apple comes out with its service, maybe

00:47:12   that changes things but yeah it's it's I was I no longer have to resort to using

00:47:19   the weird Amazon button on my TV and going through a like totally different

00:47:26   process I have to change things on my on my receiver and change the inputs on my

00:47:31   TV and all of this stuff in order to get the get it to pipe through from the app

00:47:37   that's running on my 4K TV. Now I have a 4K box attached that will do Netflix and

00:47:42   Amazon in 4K. And that's great. The next stop, by the way, I just as an aside, and

00:47:47   this is an article that I already had the idea for. It didn't need to come from

00:47:50   a Snell Talk question, which is I think one of the interesting questions out

00:47:53   there is at what point do providers... so the whole TV infrastructure is not

00:47:57   designed for anything more than HD. At what point do content providers who have

00:48:02   streaming services and our traditional TV providers like HBO, but also we could

00:48:07   say like the BBC. I would assume that they're going to start making or are

00:48:12   already making everything in 4k. At what point would you as HBO let's say make a

00:48:18   4k version of Game of Thrones available even though you can never show it on

00:48:23   traditional TV in 4k? I think it's an interesting question like will somebody

00:48:28   somebody do that and say, because Netflix and Amazon are already there, so will somebody

00:48:33   say "hell yeah, the next season of Game of Thrones is going to come out in 4K HDR on

00:48:38   HBO Go, and if you get it on cable you're just going to see 1080, that's all we have

00:48:43   for you, but we're making it in 4K." And that would be, we are perilously close to a scenario

00:48:50   where even if you've got the linear TV channels for these things, you won't want them, because

00:48:55   the whole process, the whole procedure to get those channels to you was just rebuilt

00:49:01   around 1080 and 720 and they're probably not going to rebuild it again for a while.

00:49:07   And so, I don't know, suddenly even HBO, we could be perilously close to the best way

00:49:13   to watch HBO being HBO Go, if it isn't already.

00:49:16   Like in terms of quality, that's fascinating to me.

00:49:19   So I don't know.

00:49:20   I think we are extremely close to that point.

00:49:23   So like for example, Blue Planet, it's a big documentary series. I think yesterday,

00:49:30   BBC added the 4K HDR version to iPlayer. Does BBC have the capability to broadcast in 4K

00:49:40   HDR? No. No, right? Like traditional broadcast has not made any attempt to do that. I can't

00:49:44   imagine it happening. I would be very surprised to see that happen without data connections

00:49:49   being involved like it seems like it is an incredible amount of bandwidth like I

00:49:53   think we're quite a long way away from that and honestly that any spectrum

00:49:56   changes would probably be prioritized to mobile networks over TV networks now so

00:50:01   I don't see a world in which we have 4k for a very very long time especially

00:50:05   when it's on the boxes and we're more likely to move to a television over

00:50:11   internet service than we are over the airwaves I feel like that that's the

00:50:17   future anyway so I see a likelihood where 4k over the air works is

00:50:22   incredibly unlikely. Right and and the same if you're going through something

00:50:25   like cable or satellite where they've got to completely... DirectTV here in the

00:50:28   US tried a 4k channel or two in and it didn't really go over they did ESPN I

00:50:35   think in 4k they did a 3d version there is I think they do have a 4k channel but

00:50:40   it's like super early because again you have to get like with the HD transition

00:50:44   have to get every possible link in the chain to support the new formats. And I will say

00:50:53   my local cable company still has SD channels and then duplicates them with HD channels

00:51:00   starting with 1000. So if I want to watch channel 2, I have to watch channel 1002. And

00:51:05   this is how long since the HD transition was happening. And yet it's still like a mess

00:51:12   and we still are in the transition phase from HD to SD. So yeah, it seems unlikely to me

00:51:17   that everybody's going to turn over to 4K and all the channels are going to have 4K

00:51:22   versions and all of that, but there's going to be 4K content, there's already 4K content,

00:51:26   so what happens? And I think it's really interesting that you might end up with broadcasters making

00:51:34   their best quality stuff only available via streaming. That'll be fun.

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00:54:17   Jason, Johnny Ive's back.

00:54:21   Did he ever leave? I guess he did.

00:54:24   He kinda did.

00:54:25   He got in his Bentley and drove off, never to be seen again. But now he's back.

00:54:29   Now he's back.

00:54:30   He was released from the white room.

00:54:31   He was.

00:54:32   was he or was he released back into the white room? Back in. Interesting. Yeah, he was kept out of the white room.

00:54:37   They were moving the white room. That was the problem. I see. It was broken down and moved.

00:54:42   Right, so you may remember, cast your mind back a couple of years, I think it was now.

00:54:47   Johnny Ive got kind of promoted. Do you remember that's like they created Chief

00:54:52   Design Officer, which is a brand new title at Apple, and they kind of promoted

00:54:59   Alan Dye and Richard Hooworth to run the design teams and they would report back

00:55:05   into Jonny Ive. They would be running the day-to-day. I think they were split

00:55:09   across software and hardware and that was how it was gonna run. And this led

00:55:14   to many people wondering like what is what is Ive's future? What is he gonna do?

00:55:17   Like why is this happening? Are they making him feel more important? Is he

00:55:21   going more hands-off? And I think it's clear now that what was happening was

00:55:26   was Johnny Ive was building a building, so he wanted to go build the building. And if

00:55:33   you're building a building, you kind of have a lot of time taken away from you. And this

00:55:37   even is, I think, completely confirmed by a report from Bloomberg where Amy Bissett,

00:55:45   who is a spokesperson for Apple, said, "With the completion of Apple Park, Apple's design

00:55:50   leaders and teams are again reporting directly to Johnny Ive, who remains focused purely

00:55:56   on design. That is a, I think, uncharacteristically very clear statement about what has occurred

00:56:04   that he stepped away to build Apple Park. He is now back in control again.

00:56:10   The problem with Apple's secrecy is everybody's going to speculate, right? They know that.

00:56:15   Everybody knows that. If you remain silent, everybody's going to speculate. There'll be

00:56:19   rumblings and there'll be rumors and all of that. And I do wonder if this is part of the

00:56:23   Apple PR change that's happened under new leadership, which is, look, let's just disclose

00:56:30   exactly what we want to disclose, but with details and stop the conspiracy theories and

00:56:36   stop the rumors and just like say, this is what's going on. Now we can still speculate

00:56:42   about what they said, but like, isn't it better if you're Apple to say, Hey, Johnny Ive is

00:56:47   now back here. He was doing that. Now he's doing this. These guys report to him. This

00:56:51   is what his job is and then we're done like it's kind of refreshing it is

00:56:58   actually I was really surprised to see it I was like oh because I read the

00:57:02   report and I was waiting for like person familiar with the matter no no it was

00:57:07   just a spokesperson I was like oh all right then well that makes sense and I

00:57:11   am surprised about this Jason because I thought that he was going to retire

00:57:15   interesting I thought that the campus was his like swan song like this was the

00:57:20   last thing and then he was gonna be done. I don't know maybe he maybe he was like

00:57:25   no no now I need to go back and get everything back in order it's all I mean

00:57:29   okay I don't know Johnny Ive at all you've you've been in a room with him so

00:57:34   that's nice I guess I've I guess technically I've been in a room with him

00:57:37   too right sure but I haven't I haven't chatted with him I've been I've been

00:57:41   within like you I've been within six feet of him that's our relationship with

00:57:44   Johnny Ive we know who he is we've seen his videos we know his reputation and

00:57:48   we've been within six feet of him at one point. So basically we know everything about him

00:57:54   is what I'm saying. We know his likes, his loves, his dislikes, what everything means

00:57:59   to him. So my point is, if you're a person who is incredibly talented and has had great

00:58:04   success and has been knighted and has, right, obviously you're going to, it would take a

00:58:11   very special person in that position with all of that background to say, "You know,

00:58:16   lie lieutenants have it I don't need to do this anymore I'm just gonna go back

00:58:21   to England and have a good time and drive cars right I feel like if you're

00:58:27   somebody who's so driven that you've gotten to this point I would think just

00:58:31   not knowing him but knowing human nature I would think it would still be kind of

00:58:34   hard to walk away and not rejoin the fray right that it's like yes he trusts

00:58:41   his team he trusts the guys that he put in charge of design in his absence but

00:58:46   you know, does he not want, I mean, at some point, all these people, we've talked about this, all these people at Apple who are in senior roles have so much money that they don't need to be there anymore. They don't. They could go away with their money and their Apple stock and retire. Tim Cook could retire, Phil Schiller could retire. I think, I mean, I don't know their personal finances, but it's like, come on, they've been there so long and Apple has done so well. Johnny and I could retire.

00:59:15   fire. So what keeps him motivated? And I guess that was what you thought was maybe he's not

00:59:21   motivated and he went and did Apple Park and then he would be like, you know, I don't need

00:59:25   to do this anymore. But I would, I guess, argue the flip side here, which is obviously

00:59:29   doing this motivates him and he wants to keep doing something and maybe I wonder actually

00:59:34   just armchair psychology here, maybe his time away made him miss it and realize that that's

00:59:40   what he wants to do with, you know, with his professional life. So I think it's good in

00:59:46   that way because I do think he is a brilliant guy. I think the statement that he remains

00:59:51   focused purely on design is fascinating because it reads to me like they are trying to tamp

00:59:58   down accusing everything that happens at Apple on Johnny Ive having too much authority.

01:00:03   Yeah, I also saw it as like trying to make people feel better if they've been unhappy with product direction.

01:00:12   Yeah, right. Well, it's a two-headed approach there too, because it's both "Johnny Ive's back, everybody feel better."

01:00:20   It's all "we're all, we're back, we're doing this, it's gonna be awesome."

01:00:23   And it's also "remember, he's just gonna do design, don't load all of the other things you're unhappy with on Johnny Ive."

01:00:32   he's not gonna he's not gonna be in charge of that and i think left unsaid is was he he remains

01:00:37   focused purely on design i don't know they made some statements earlier on that suggested maybe

01:00:42   he was had a little more power than that or at least that was implied and this seems very much

01:00:48   like no he is constrained all he does is design do not you know do not think that he is in charge of

01:00:54   anything else but design which is i don't know it's interestingly phrased yeah but it i'm pleased

01:01:00   to see it because I mean I am ultimately a fan of his work right like ultimately

01:01:06   you know I can have problems with certain things etc etc but what I love

01:01:11   about Apple is their design and the person who's been in charge of product

01:01:15   design for the entire time that I've cared is him for 20 years yeah so you

01:01:21   know if there are things every now and then that I might not like but that is

01:01:27   only because I love it also much.

01:01:29   - And I think there are, we hear criticism

01:01:32   of Apple's design stuff, and often

01:01:34   Johnny Ive gets blamed for it as being,

01:01:37   but here's the thing, I don't think people blame

01:01:39   Johnny Ive for having a perspective

01:01:41   and being an opinionated designer, right?

01:01:44   I think everybody respects, or almost everybody,

01:01:46   respects Johnny Ive as a designer,

01:01:49   and his design philosophy, simplify everything, right?

01:01:53   We can joke about like everything is monochrome

01:01:55   and all those things, but design goes through phases and design is about the time and design,

01:02:03   what's hot in design changes over time and colors will come back at some point. They

01:02:08   were here for a while with the iPod, they'll come back again later, but right now everything's

01:02:11   white and gray and darker gray and that's fine. I think the criticism is about Apple

01:02:19   handing the keys to Johnny Ive and not having other opinionated people pushing back at him,

01:02:25   saying, "This design isn't practical. This design doesn't work for our customers. This

01:02:30   design hurts the usability of our products." And so, you know, Johnny coming back doesn't,

01:02:35   to me, doesn't say, "Yeah, it's an incredibly talented guy who's going to be more engaged

01:02:39   in making Apple products." I think that's a good thing. I think the thing that hovers

01:02:43   over all of this, that has been hovering over since they announced that he was taking such

01:02:48   a prominent role in the company, including software design, way back when, is, "Is

01:02:53   anybody at Apple with the cred to push back on things Johnny Ive wants to do

01:02:59   and say no we can't design it that way because of this issue because at least

01:03:06   the conventional wisdom is that when Apple has had a design failure it has

01:03:09   been pushing design aesthetics over usability or over the needs of the

01:03:15   customer and that's not saying the designs aren't pretty it's saying you

01:03:19   know as the famous Steve Jobs line says "Design is how it works." And I don't know

01:03:24   if any of this is actually true inside Apple. I don't know. But that's generally

01:03:29   been the criticism from the outside of Johnny Ive. It has not been that he's bad at

01:03:32   his job, but that he hasn't had anybody to call him on things that maybe he

01:03:39   needs to be called on. I don't know. I would wonder at this point if Dye and Howarth

01:03:43   would probably have that feeling now because they've run it, right? They were

01:03:47   were running it. So I would expect that they probably have a feeling now that they can

01:03:52   challenge him. That would be my expectation, but I don't know the guys.

01:03:54   Right, it's internal group dynamics and personalities now, which is something that we basically

01:03:58   can't observe. Short of knowing somebody inside the design group who says, "No, no, this is

01:04:02   how this works. It's fine." Or, "Oh yeah, you're right. He's going to totally run roughshot

01:04:06   over everybody else." Like, short of somebody who works with these guys every day, and they're

01:04:09   not talking, because they've all been working together for a couple of decades, or a decade

01:04:15   at least, I mean there's very little turnover is my understanding in that group and it's a lot of

01:04:18   people who have been working together for a very long time and of course it's Apple and there's a

01:04:22   code of silence and all those things but I don't know or it's another executive right I mean maybe

01:04:27   there is somebody who we know or who we don't know who like a Phil Schiller who with all the

01:04:34   criticism of the Mac stuff and the fact that they changed direction on the Mac Pro maybe part of

01:04:39   of that was that he or somebody else who made that happen has more cred to push back on

01:04:46   some of those decisions. And maybe that's part of it. We just don't know. We can speculate

01:04:51   all we like, but in the end, it's not knowable, I think, unless you're on the inside there

01:04:56   and those people aren't talking. All we can do from the outside is speculate and hope.

01:05:01   But I will say, I'm choosing to view Johnny Ive coming back and being fully engaged as

01:05:06   a positive because I think he's brilliant and I hope the processes around him are such

01:05:13   that his brilliance is in the service of products that are designed brilliantly and wonderfully

01:05:19   serve their, the people who are buying them.

01:05:22   I completely agree with you. I see this as good news. Like, this feels like good news

01:05:26   to me. Yeah.

01:05:27   Alright, it's time for #AskUpgrade and this week #AskUpgrade is brought to you by our friends

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01:07:16   Our first question this week comes from Phil Tech

01:07:18   and they would like to know,

01:07:20   do you use apps or text messages

01:07:22   for two factor authentication?

01:07:24   If you use apps, would you recommend one

01:07:26   and describe a typical workflow?

01:07:28   Now I will say for me, Jason,

01:07:30   to the horror of everyone in the world,

01:07:32   I use text messages still for my two factor.

01:07:35   I know that there are apps that do this.

01:07:39   I know that 1Password does it.

01:07:40   I know that Authy does it.

01:07:42   I like text messages and I'll tell you why.

01:07:44   I travel a lot and I feel like I'm always going

01:07:49   to receive a text message.

01:07:52   Even if I don't have the ability to get data,

01:07:56   the text message will come through.

01:07:58   So if I, for example, only have data on one device,

01:08:01   So let's say it's on my iPad or on a laptop,

01:08:04   and I need to get an authentication,

01:08:06   I am confident the text message will arrive.

01:08:10   So that's one of the reasons that I keep it that way.

01:08:11   - All right, I hear you, but I'm gonna counter you,

01:08:15   which is one, these apps run on all your devices.

01:08:20   - That's true, that is true. - So they're not limited

01:08:22   to one, and two, they're time-based codes,

01:08:26   so they don't need internet connectivity.

01:08:28   They just work.

01:08:29   - Well, I didn't know that.

01:08:30   Well then the other part is, this feels like a real pain to switch over everything.

01:08:35   Well that's the thing, and also some of them don't do it.

01:08:37   And some of them won't let you, even though it's a security hole to do it by text messages,

01:08:41   some services will let you get an authenticator app, but will still send you a text message,

01:08:47   which is kind of infuriating.

01:08:50   My answer to this question is yes, I do use apps, I've turned text messages off for everything

01:08:53   where I can.

01:08:55   I have been using Authy. I am now using 1Password for most of it because Authy is nice, but

01:09:03   1Password has done a great job of integrating the workflow. So like, you get prompted at

01:09:12   a website to enter your username and password, and you go to 1Password through the share extension

01:09:17   on iOS, and you say, "All right, that's the one. Autofill the username and password."

01:09:23   If it also has an authentication code, it puts it on the clipboard.

01:09:27   So you tap, it logs you in, and then asks for your code, and you just paste.

01:09:34   And you're done.

01:09:35   One app for both.

01:09:37   That's pretty great.

01:09:38   And of course, it syncs and goes to all my devices.

01:09:40   So all my devices have access to those authenticator codes.

01:09:43   So that's what I'm doing now.

01:09:45   I still have one thing in Authy that I need to move out, because it is a pain to move

01:09:49   that stuff around.

01:09:51   But I think ultimately the app is the way to do it if you can.

01:09:55   Not all services allow that.

01:09:56   And it's mostly because of the security issue where if somebody can get access to your phone

01:10:03   or pretend that they have your phone, they can get your codes.

01:10:07   So I'll say #michaeliswrong about his thinking on these things.

01:10:12   I would like to do it.

01:10:15   Maybe one day I will set it up.

01:10:17   just like I know this is crazy but I want someone to do it for me which is

01:10:21   obviously not what should happen you know but like it just seems like such a

01:10:24   pain but I'll look at it did this Twitter support it yes but I believe

01:10:29   Twitter will always send you a text message regardless I think that's the

01:10:35   one where I where I may have the ability to set up I I need to check its Twitter

01:10:40   still sending me text messages but I I have been planning on trying to set up

01:10:43   the barcode authentication thing too and I'm not sure. My cable company is the

01:10:48   same way. They will let me do an authenticator code but they're still

01:10:52   gonna send me a text message. It's infuriating.

01:10:54   I'm gonna say Novak asked iPhone 10 and Face ID question. Will Face ID on an

01:11:00   iPhone 10 work with a user who is blind in one eye? Does it require two working

01:11:05   eyes to do its magic? Thanks for the show. So I'm gonna say yes unless you turn off

01:11:12   attention detection, right? Because the attention detection is waiting for you to look at it.

01:11:17   If there is a problem with somebody's eye where they may not be able to do that, then

01:11:22   you may not be able to use the attention detection stuff.

01:11:24   It depends on your personal situation too, because I think if you're blind in one eye,

01:11:28   but that eye still can be detected as being, you know, when you point your face and your

01:11:35   eyes at the screen if your blind eye is read as also being pointed at the screen

01:11:42   I think it will work so you could try it but if not you just turn this varies

01:11:48   diff wildly definitely for different people even the same people in different

01:11:51   circumstances right like I can imagine this being something that would be

01:11:54   pretty tricky but I believe that this is one of the reasons that Apple added

01:11:59   attention detection for people in these situations. So, like for example, if you only had one

01:12:05   eye, like what are you going to do? Although I'll say this, Myke, I just unlocked my phone

01:12:09   by looking at it with one eye closed and one eye open. Okay. So maybe. So basically like

01:12:16   we don't know the ins and outs enough. Right, because everybody's different. Yeah, but there

01:12:20   is an option that will work for you pretty much regardless when it comes to the way that

01:12:26   your eyes are detected because you can set it up to basically just read what

01:12:30   your face looks like because from what I can understand there are two things

01:12:33   going on it is detecting your face then detecting your eyes like it's doing

01:12:37   those two things independently it would seem so you just turn off one of them

01:12:42   and it still detects your face which will unlock it so but you know then you

01:12:46   get into the whole situation that like you could be sleeping and someone could

01:12:50   point your phone like it that's whatever right that's that's the other part of it

01:12:54   but if you're cool with that and if it will work for you then great you have an option.

01:12:58   We have another face ID question from Brent. Does using face ID on the iPhone and touch ID on the

01:13:03   iPad mess with your brain in any way? Jason? I have moments I have moments where I try to flip

01:13:09   up my iPad and I realize I need to use touch ID or I'm asked to put my finger on the button in order

01:13:15   to get the you know one password to unlock or something like that and I'm like oh right yeah

01:13:20   this is still like this. I think honestly the thing that messes with me most on my iPad is

01:13:26   not face ID but the gesture to flip up to go to the home screen. That I find myself doing and being

01:13:33   like "what just happened?" So that for me that's the thing that confuses me the most. Literally the

01:13:38   only thing for me is the placement of control center. That's the only one that I ever have any

01:13:43   like have to sit and think for a second problems because I'm expecting to scroll down from the top.

01:13:49   -We will save my rant about Control Center for another day,

01:13:52   but the more I use my iPhone X,

01:13:54   the more I despise what they've done to Control Center.

01:13:58   I had to move the camera app back to the bottom

01:14:01   of my home screen because I have an unlocked phone

01:14:05   and I want to take a picture, and I'm like, "Uh, what do I do?"

01:14:09   And I used to be able to flip up with my thumb,

01:14:10   tap the camera button, and take a picture.

01:14:12   Now it's like, "Uh, I guess I need to swipe down from the top.

01:14:16   What if I'm holding something in the other hand?"

01:14:19   it's like I can't I cannot one hand a picture from unlocked I can lock it

01:14:23   again and then touch on the camera button that's stupid anyway I think it's

01:14:29   really bad and they need to fix it and I'm really frustrated by that I also

01:14:32   wanted to put a shout out to Google Maps which was updated for the iPhone 10 and

01:14:36   it's terrible because if you want to go back to the home screen you have to flip

01:14:42   open the info pane at the bottom of the screen and then flip the first flip

01:14:48   does from the bottom does nothing. I don't have that problem. I have that problem.

01:14:52   Okay, I think it might just depend on how you're flipping, right? Like, I don't think

01:14:57   that's it. My thumb starts at the, like, below the screen when I do it, because I'm

01:15:02   doing, I mean, I'm having no problem opening and closing it right now. I tried

01:15:05   this yesterday and it was, and it was just infuriating. While, while, while

01:15:08   navigating. Maybe it's just while navigating. Mmm, yeah, maybe. You know what

01:15:13   it might be doing? Oh, I know what's happening. If you're in the navigation,

01:15:16   it's probably using the full screen entitlement.

01:15:19   Yes.

01:15:20   Like it would for videos and games.

01:15:22   So you may need to flip twice in the same way that when you're playing a game in the

01:15:26   old, the pre-iPhone X and you wanted to hit Control Center, you would have to do kind

01:15:32   of two swipes up to get Control Center.

01:15:35   So they may be using it in full screen like the iPhone X full screen.

01:15:39   So when you're navigating, you can't flip up from the bottom of the screen nor can you

01:15:43   use the multitasking control.

01:15:44   You have to do it twice.

01:15:46   Right, okay.

01:15:47   Yeah, so they're using the full screen thing, right?

01:15:48   I disapprove!

01:15:49   Which might not be the best thing.

01:15:50   Okay.

01:15:51   No, I can see that, because that would be really annoying.

01:15:54   But I see what you mean now, because I was like, "I don't know what's happening, I'm

01:15:58   doing it!"

01:15:59   But I've just got the regular map view open.

01:16:01   So basically, if you can't see the home indicator, you either have to tap on the screen to bring

01:16:07   it up, which doesn't always work, or you have to do the double swipe thing.

01:16:11   In this case, it's grayed out, is what it is.

01:16:13   So it's there.

01:16:14   Yeah. But you don't get to use it.

01:16:16   You have to do the double, the double, which is

01:16:18   frustrating. I don't like it.

01:16:19   I just want super quick back to the question that

01:16:22   Brent had.

01:16:23   I think one of the reasons that I don't have too

01:16:26   many problems with my iPhone and my iPad

01:16:28   is I do in my brain treat them as separate devices

01:16:31   like in the same way that when I sit down at my

01:16:33   Mac, I'm not trying to find the home button.

01:16:36   Like I understand that a lot of people and I get

01:16:39   it like a lot of people are struggling to with

01:16:41   iOS 11 and the iPhone 10 of like trying to tell their devices apart again like

01:16:46   I've seen this from a lot of people like Fraser's going through this, CGP Grey is

01:16:50   going through this, Fraser Spears and CGP Grey they seem to be having problems

01:16:53   with like iOS 11 and the iPhone 10 disrupting the way that they think about

01:16:57   their iOS devices but I don't have that problem and I think it's just because

01:17:01   for whatever reason when I sit down those devices I'm able to more mentally

01:17:04   separate them I don't know what makes me different.

01:17:09   Brandon asked I was horrified to learn that my wife has 346 open Safari tabs on

01:17:16   her iPhone 7 recipes and research things like that she texts herself links she

01:17:21   texts herself links so she can close a tab she won't use pin board but this is

01:17:25   clearly impractical do you know people who do this how can I help

01:17:28   Brandon gonna sit down Brandon imagine Brandon that I have stood up and I've

01:17:32   turned my chair around right and now I'm sitting back like in the saved by the

01:17:37   bell manner. Brandon, just let your wife use her workflow the way that she wants. You don't

01:17:42   have to change this. Like, Adina keeps thousands of emails in her inbox and this boggles my

01:17:48   mind. But this just, it's her system and they're incredibly hard to break. If your wife, Brandon,

01:17:55   wants to have 346 open Safari tabs on her iPhone 7, it's probably okay. Like, I can't

01:18:00   imagine that Safari is going to break. If it does, then she'll know and she'll have

01:18:04   have to change something. Don't try and teach her how to use pinboard. Pinboard is like

01:18:08   super particular to people and like even I can't get my head around completely how that

01:18:13   app works. Let her have her system Brandon. That's what I say. And now I've turned my

01:18:18   chair back around.

01:18:19   Alright. Yeah I have nothing to say here too. I agree with you. If I had a really quick

01:18:27   like you can download this app and it just automatically bookmarks all the open tabs

01:18:32   or something like that. I would tell you, but I don't actually know how to do that.

01:18:39   And yeah, I don't know. I can't help.

01:18:42   I don't think that there is a better system for your wife than the one that she's probably

01:18:46   already using because it makes the most sense in her brain.

01:18:49   Kamal asked, "iCloud Photo Library or Google Photos? Are you paying for the extra cloud

01:18:54   storage?" Jason, which one do you recommend? Which one are you using? Which one do you

01:18:57   like the most?

01:18:58   I am using iCloud Photo Library.

01:19:01   I am paying for extra cloud storage.

01:19:04   Because I can share that storage with my family,

01:19:06   it means that they also can back up all their devices

01:19:08   to that same pile of cloud storage.

01:19:11   I like iCloud Photo Library

01:19:14   because I use the Photos app on my Mac,

01:19:17   and because it means that I can keep a copy

01:19:19   of everything resident on my Mac,

01:19:22   and it syncs from my devices as they're taking pictures.

01:19:27   That all said, if you don't care about those things so much,

01:19:30   iCloud Photo Library has, I mean,

01:19:32   Google Photos has the advantage of being free.

01:19:34   You may occasionally need to launch Google Photos

01:19:38   on your iPhone in order to get it to sync

01:19:40   because of the way background syncing works.

01:19:43   But I'm using iCloud Photo Library,

01:19:46   partially because I wrote a book about photos,

01:19:48   so I need to know and I need to use it,

01:19:49   but it does have some advantages.

01:19:51   And it sort of fits with the way

01:19:52   that I've been doing photo organization for years,

01:19:56   Whereas Google Photos is much more like just kind of like

01:19:59   caster photos to the wind and they're in the cloud now.

01:20:01   And that's another way to go and it's super convenient.

01:20:06   - And finally today, Ayan asks,

01:20:08   a couple of people asked this actually,

01:20:10   how do you make the #AskUpgrade spreadsheet

01:20:14   that we refer to?

01:20:15   So this is a semi podcasting tip,

01:20:17   but you can use this for a bunch of different uses.

01:20:20   You can use IFTTT or Zapier for this.

01:20:23   And I will include a link in the show notes

01:20:25   an IFTTT recipe, a recipe that the original #askupgrade sheet was built on. I'll put that

01:20:33   in the show notes. It's basically just either IFTTT or Zapier, they will watch for a specific

01:20:39   hashtag to be used and then every time they see it, you add the tweet to a spreadsheet

01:20:46   and the Zapier stuff is more powerful. You can pull more things out of it, but it is

01:20:50   more complicated and the IFTTT stuff, you can just enable it. You just say, this is

01:20:54   hashtag I want to look for. This is the spreadsheet I want it to go to. It builds the spreadsheet,

01:20:59   puts all the columns in, saves everything in. It's so simple and I love it. So there you go.

01:21:04   It's very simple today. Very easy. If you would like to submit a question for us to answer at the

01:21:09   end of the show, you can just send a tweet with the hashtag #askupgrade and we will get to as many

01:21:14   as we possibly can. And so we said earlier, if you have something that you would like to talk

01:21:19   for us to talk about at the opening of the show, that is #snelltalk for that one. If you want to

01:21:23   If you want to find Jason online,

01:21:24   he's over at the incomparable dot com

01:21:26   and sixcolors.com, where Jason hosts many podcasts

01:21:30   and writes many wonderful articles,

01:21:31   as well as his wonderful many shows here at Relay FM.

01:21:34   We are always honored for Jason to grace us

01:21:37   with his podcasting presence,

01:21:39   and you can catch him on Liftoff and download

01:21:42   and free agents, as well as upgrade.

01:21:44   Did I get them all?

01:21:45   - Uh-uh, for Relay, yeah.

01:21:46   - Yeah, I mean, yeah, we're going for a specific promotion

01:21:50   for your Relay FM show.

01:21:50   - Thank you, of course.

01:21:51   - What do you want, what do you want?

01:21:52   - It only makes sense.

01:21:53   also on Twitter is @JSNEL, J S N E double L. I am @IMYKE. We'll be back next time. Please

01:22:02   don't forget to get your Upgrady's votes in. You only have a couple of days left from when

01:22:06   this episode goes out. So if you want your vote to matter, you got to get it in there.

01:22:11   If you want to vote for your favorite podcast or your favorite app for the prestigious Upgrady

01:22:15   awards it's not long left to go our show notes this week are a relay.fm/upgrades/171

01:22:23   thanks again to Squarespace, Eero and Simple Contacts for their support this week

01:22:28   signing off from Seattle, Washington I'm Myke Hurley say goodbye to Jesus now

01:22:32   have a good flight home Myke

01:22:34   [Music]