168: Hail Hydrant


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:10   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade brought to you this week by FreshBooks, Encapsula, and AppOptics.

00:00:16   I am one of your hosts for Upgrade, Jason Snell.

00:00:20   Myke Hurley, obviously not here because he usually does the intro, but he's not here.

00:00:25   He is on assignment.

00:00:26   And so instead I had to get a replacement for Myke, and I'm happy to say joining me

00:00:31   to talk about things on Upgrade This Week is John Syracuse. Welcome back. Hello.

00:00:37   This feels weird, podcasting in the middle of the day. What's going on?

00:00:39   I know. You have a strict only podcasting after dark rule that you're breaking. Well,

00:00:44   it's Thanksgiving week. Everything is topsy-turvy.

00:00:45   That's right. Well, I'm like a Mogwai. No feeding after midnight, no water, no podcasting

00:00:50   in the day. Bad things happen.

00:00:51   Oh, well, get ready, everybody, because bad things are going to happen now, I guess. I

00:00:55   I don't know what those things are, but nobody cares about that, Jon, because it's time for

00:00:59   #SNELtalk this week.

00:01:01   A very special question for you from me, which is from listener Mark, who wrote in to say,

00:01:07   "Jon, what is your favorite fictional car?"

00:01:11   Seems like a softball, but it's not.

00:01:12   I thought about it for a long time, and it should be easy for me to come up with favorites

00:01:17   for almost anything.

00:01:19   And I like cars, so surely I have a favorite fictional car, but I really, really don't.

00:01:23   So I had to try to come up with one, try to think, all right,

00:01:27   well, now think of one now.

00:01:28   And I don't know why I went to movies.

00:01:31   I have to tell you, the first thing

00:01:33   that came to mind when just considering what favorite cars

00:01:36   might be was Kit from Knight Rider.

00:01:38   Oh.

00:01:39   I think Kit from Knight Rider looms largest

00:01:41   as the fictional car that was in my life

00:01:44   the most because I watched Knight Rider when I was a kid.

00:01:46   It's not my favorite car, though.

00:01:47   I never was going to pick it, but when I just said,

00:01:49   let's think of fictional cars.

00:01:50   That's what came up.

00:01:51   That and Herbie the Love Bug, of all things, right?

00:01:53   Also not my favorite fictional car, but this came to mind.

00:01:57   So I had to dig deep.

00:01:59   I have an answer that is not particularly satisfactory.

00:02:02   It's not a terrible answer, but it's what I'm coming up with,

00:02:06   if pressed.

00:02:07   I'm sure there's a better answer.

00:02:08   I know that it's just not occurring to me.

00:02:10   But what I've got right now is the Spinner from Blade Runner.

00:02:14   Do you know what I'm talking about?

00:02:15   Flying car.

00:02:16   Yeah, that's right.

00:02:18   It is at various times a model and a full-size thing

00:02:22   on a crane that is concealed with smoke.

00:02:25   At no point is it CG, because they didn't have CG back then.

00:02:28   But it is very cool looking.

00:02:30   And the car leaving and arriving and shots from outside

00:02:37   into the car through rain-spattered windshields

00:02:39   and such make up a lot of the atmosphere of Blade Runner.

00:02:45   And Blade Runner is one of my favorite movies.

00:02:47   And not to spoil too much, but there are also flying cars

00:02:51   in the new Blade Runner movie.

00:02:52   But anyway, I'm picking the original Blade Runner, which I think is an iconic sci-fi

00:02:56   car.

00:02:57   And even though we don't see it do much car-ing kind of stuff, other than flying up and down,

00:03:03   that's what I've got.

00:03:04   All right.

00:03:05   The two that came to mind for me were the DeLorean from Back to the Future.

00:03:09   Yeah, I wouldn't pick that.

00:03:10   Now, would you not pick it because the DeLorean as a car—I tried to explain this when we

00:03:14   were doing our Back to the Future commentary track for the Incomparable members, that I

00:03:20   I feel like I have to explain to younger audiences

00:03:22   that The DeLorean in Back to the Future is not cool.

00:03:25   It is a joke.

00:03:26   It is a joke that they're using a DeLorean.

00:03:29   And now it's like, oh, man, that cool time machine car.

00:03:31   It's like, no, no, no.

00:03:32   It's a punch line because nobody wanted a DeLorean.

00:03:36   That's not why.

00:03:37   And I take slight exception to that.

00:03:41   DeLorean was rare and exotic.

00:03:42   If you're a car person, you knew it was not a good car.

00:03:44   But if you were not a car person,

00:03:46   which I think what they were going for in the Back

00:03:49   the future movie was that both people are not car people, have no idea what a DeLorean

00:03:53   is other than that it is a rare car that they've never seen and that it has weird doors and

00:03:57   it's basically exotic. Well, I don't know because it was also John DeLorean, they went

00:04:02   bankrupt and he went to jail. Yeah, but nobody knows that but car people. Oh no, no, that's

00:04:07   not true because I'm not a car person and I was just a kid in 1985 and I totally knew

00:04:10   that and that was that moment where he says "a DeLorean?" where it's like "oh, it's a

00:04:14   joke, point and laugh at the silly car." Well, I think we now need the oral history of Back

00:04:18   of the Future and talk to you. Who wrote it? Would Zemeckis write it? Who wrote Back to

00:04:23   the Future? He prob... Bob Gale and Robert Zemeckis both, maybe? Anyway, we'll have to see what they

00:04:29   intended with that joke. But no, that's not why I didn't pick it. Well, partly because I am a car

00:04:33   guy and it's not a good car, but it's different than picking, okay, not the DeLorean, but the

00:04:37   DeLorean from Back to the Future. I think it's fine, but it never seemed like a cool car to me.

00:04:47   It seemed like a cool prop in a movie that did stuff, but I never said, man, it would be great if I had a DeLorean with Mr. Fusion on the back.

00:04:53   I never, I never, it was never an object of like, uh, you know, I never, never fantasized about how cool it would be to drive that, which is different than, than the people.

00:05:01   A lot of people now would say, uh, in the world of the movie, I wouldn't want that car, but outside the world of the movie as an artifact from Back to the Future, which is a movie that I love, I would love to have one of those cars.

00:05:11   I also don't fall into that category, but I can understand that more.

00:05:13   It's interesting how you define favorite. This is how we do robot or not. It's all how

00:05:18   you define it. So I will say the other one that I thought of, I didn't make a pick because

00:05:22   the question wasn't for me. The other one I thought of was the Batmobile.

00:05:24   Yeah, no.

00:05:25   And I was actually thinking of kind of like the Adam West Batmobile, but also other Batmobiles.

00:05:29   Those are fun fictional cars. But I think the flying car from Blade Runner is a good

00:05:34   one. That's a good one.

00:05:35   And the only other one that came to mind, I hope I'm getting this right. There was a

00:05:40   There's a movie—I've got to look it up on IMDb—called The Wraith, I believe, that

00:05:44   would show on crappy television late at night.

00:05:49   From 1986.

00:05:50   I think that's what it's called.

00:05:52   I don't know.

00:05:53   There's a movie with a name very similar to that that I may or may not be able to remember

00:05:56   at this point, and it had a car in it that would appear at various times and speed by,

00:06:03   and it was like a regular car that they just put a bunch of body cladding on to make it

00:06:07   look cool.

00:06:08   Yeah, I see it.

00:06:09   and it definitely seemed cool in the movie because the whole deal was that this thing

00:06:14   would just show up and speed by and its windows were all blacked out and it was mysterious

00:06:17   and futury and stuff like that. But I also wouldn't pick that. The spinner is my pick

00:06:21   of the ones that I could think of. I continue to believe that there is a car that I would

00:06:25   pick over that that I just am not able to think of.

00:06:27   Well, it has been an epic Snell Talk, so thank you to Mark for your question. We have some

00:06:32   follow-up. I want to mention this is where we sell products, so sorry about that. But

00:06:39   The people have asked for the Upgrade t-shirt and the Upgrade hoodie.

00:06:45   It's a limited run, we do it for a few weeks and then it goes away again for a while.

00:06:48   I just wanted to mention, the links will be in the show notes, the Upgrade hoodie is available

00:06:53   now from Cotton Bureau and the Upgrade t-shirt is available now from Cotton Bureau and from

00:06:57   Teespring.

00:06:59   You can check if you're in Europe, the shipping may be cheaper from Teespring.

00:07:03   Cotton Bureau will have the fancy black-on-black version as well as there's a grey version

00:07:08   and I think a red version. And there's a six-color shirt available too, so we'll put links to

00:07:12   all of that in the show notes. But if you would like to buy a t-shirt or one of our

00:07:15   fabulous upgrade your wardrobe hoodies with the secret message on the inside, you can

00:07:23   do that now through early December. I think it's December 3rd is the deadline for most

00:07:27   of it. So check that out if you are needing a podcast t-shirt. Also, I wanted to mention

00:07:33   Another thing that's ending shortly, which is the AppCamp for Girls Indiegogo campaign,

00:07:39   is ending in a couple of days. They're trying to expand to three more cities by 2020.

00:07:45   They have raised more than $50,000, which is awesome. They were hoping to raise $75,000.

00:07:51   So I think this is a great campaign for a great cause. I know, John, you guys have supported on

00:07:59   ATP as well, and they've got a couple more days if people haven't supported them to give

00:08:03   them a shot in the arm.

00:08:04   Yeah, you should read their blog, too. They have a blog, and I think it's each day they're

00:08:08   having an interview with someone who supports AppCamp, asking them why they support it.

00:08:12   So if you're wondering why you might want to give money to these people, read the blog

00:08:17   for a little bit. Read the various testimonials of the people who support the cause.

00:08:20   Yeah, it's pretty awesome. So definitely check it out, but we will put a link in the show

00:08:24   notes to the AppCamp 2020 Indiegogo campaign.

00:08:27   I had a couple quick follow-up items about things that Myke and I have talked about a

00:08:32   while that I just wanted to throw in here. One is about the iPad Pro, because Myke and

00:08:37   I talk about that a lot. And there was a story this week where Satya Nadella was in India,

00:08:42   I believe, and at one point he just walked past some journalists who were using iPads

00:08:46   and said, "Get a real computer." I mean, I guess he's joking, but it's also kind of like

00:08:51   a bully move or something. I don't know. And that prompted me. That actually happened the

00:08:57   same day that Apple released this YouTube, this commercial on YouTube. It's not a YouTube

00:09:03   commercial. It's like an actual television commercial, but I see it on YouTube, called

00:09:07   What's a Computer, which shows a girl using her iPad for all these things. And at the

00:09:11   end she's asked, "What kind of computer is that?" And she says, "What's a computer?"

00:09:14   Because it's not a computer, it's an iPad. And that prompted me to write a post where

00:09:18   I was basically like mad at Satya Nadella a little bit because, you know, it's all in

00:09:22   how you use these things.

00:09:27   My iPad Pro is a real computer that gives me some amazing flexibility in terms of using

00:09:32   it like a laptop or putting it in a stand and using it kind of like an iMac or using

00:09:37   a flip out keyboard in the case of the smart keyboard or just having it with no keyboard

00:09:42   at all and it's a pure tablet.

00:09:44   And I wrote a little post about it.

00:09:46   I kind of feel like it's a, I was reminded of this when I saw a video of like, look at

00:09:49   Satya Nadella when he was a young man working at Microsoft,

00:09:52   that it is an old person thing to say,

00:09:56   like that he is still fighting the last war

00:10:00   or still in a Mac versus PC, Apple, Microsoft mindset that

00:10:08   is causing him to reflexively put down his quote unquote

00:10:12   "competitors" hardware, get a real computer,

00:10:14   you shouldn't have an iPad.

00:10:15   I know Apple and Microsoft are still competitive in that area,

00:10:18   is they both make laptops and tablet-y type things,

00:10:21   and in fact more competitive now than they were then,

00:10:23   because now they're both hardware and software, top to bottom, right?

00:10:27   But it still strikes me as a conflict that only old people care about,

00:10:32   as a comparison that most people don't care about,

00:10:36   especially since his Microsoft has been the Microsoft that

00:10:39   is expanding into being friendlier to Linux

00:10:43   and working on cloud computing and having their office

00:10:46   applications on all platforms including iOS. They may have been writing in

00:10:51   Microsoft Word on those iPads when he said get a real computer. Right, but he

00:10:55   can't he can't help it he's a he's an old man like us he remembers the old

00:10:59   wars and he'll never forget. Yeah just come on let him as long as they're using

00:11:03   Microsoft Office and and OneDrive. A tablet on every coffee table running

00:11:09   Microsoft software was that it? Yeah sure. I'm sure that's slightly wrong. I'm sure that's it.

00:11:13   Don't put it too close to the coffee though. You might spill it and ruin your technology.

00:11:19   I wanted to--so on ATP you've been talking about the iPhone X the last couple of weeks

00:11:25   and I'm assuming that almost everybody who listens knows that you're on the Accidental

00:11:30   Tech podcast every week with Marco Arment and Casey Liss. I was wondering if there was

00:11:36   more to say about this. I imagine you'll follow up. I know it's your wife's phone so that

00:11:41   leaves you in this interesting position where you have to sort of like get some

00:11:45   stolen moments with your wife's iPhone so that you can talk about it but I was

00:11:50   wondering if you have anything popped up in in ongoing use of that that either

00:11:55   you or your wife have had with a phone that is has struck you or is it just

00:12:00   sort of like settled in now that this is just what an iPhone X is? I still

00:12:04   solicit feedback from her occasionally she's such as got a few face ID failures

00:12:11   still.

00:12:12   So I think you're still adjusting

00:12:13   to what you have to do with yourself to make Face ID work.

00:12:19   And as I said on ATP, in the same way

00:12:21   that we all have had to adjust what we do with ourselves

00:12:24   to make Touch ID work, and eventually we all preemptively

00:12:28   recognize the scenarios where it doesn't work.

00:12:30   Like if we just washed our hands, just type in your code.

00:12:33   It's not going to go.

00:12:34   Although, as I've said in the past,

00:12:37   if you train your phone on your wet finger,

00:12:40   you can actually have some success with unlocking it.

00:12:42   Like, train it on your wet thumb as a separate finger

00:12:44   from your regular thumb.

00:12:47   You can have some success there, but most of us, I think,

00:12:49   either just try to dry our hands off

00:12:52   or just go right for a touch of the-- anyway,

00:12:53   Face ID has the same thing, so she continues

00:12:56   to make adjustments in that area.

00:12:57   Although, I will say, getting out of the shower

00:13:00   and flipping open my iPhone, I had that moment every time

00:13:03   where I'm like, oh my god, it just unlocked every time.

00:13:07   Yeah, it's a different set.

00:13:09   You get so used to one set of constraints that, you know, that's trading them for a

00:13:12   different set is, you know, it's, it's bad when it doesn't work in a scenario where it

00:13:17   might've worked, but the, just the opposite, like it seems amazing.

00:13:19   And we'll have this in modern technology.

00:13:21   I can get out of the shower and unlock my phone.

00:13:23   It's magic.

00:13:23   But I was walking down second street the other day in San Francisco, cause I was a

00:13:26   visiting little friend and, uh, and, uh, the sun was right behind me.

00:13:30   It was like in that perfect position where it's shining right over my head and down

00:13:33   onto the phone.

00:13:34   And I had my first failure that those people who are reviewing the, the, the

00:13:38   iPhone X the first week, we're reporting about, "Oh, in certain conditions in bright

00:13:42   sunlight it fails." I actually had my first one of those. I've been using it for weeks,

00:13:46   and that was the first time I'd experienced it. And I get the feeling like you've really

00:13:49   got to have the right conditions for it to sort of swamp the sensor where it just can't

00:13:54   see your face. But that was my first time.

00:13:57   I would like to see a—I heard a lot of different reports of that—I would like to see a scientific

00:14:00   test showing, like with an IR camera, like some people using camcorders or other—you

00:14:04   know, a good camera that is sensitive to IR to show that actually is what's the problem.

00:14:07   there's so much IR coming from the sun that the dots aren't visible, essentially. Or if

00:14:12   it just so happens that because of the position of the sun, you squint or the phone is too

00:14:19   close or too far or whatever, and then people are associating with the bright sunlight because

00:14:23   it makes sense. So the fact that it's too long to come up with, it could be just the

00:14:28   sun hasn't been bright enough because it's always foggy in San Francisco. I don't know.

00:14:33   But I'm always wary of these sort of like, you know, strange tales of Face ID working

00:14:38   or not working.

00:14:39   This is a thing we can test.

00:14:40   Like, you know, we can see those IR dots and we can see.

00:14:42   Look at this person's face.

00:14:43   I can't even see the dots because there's just too much IR from the sun.

00:14:46   Or if that can never be reproduced, then it just may be something else.

00:14:49   I also wanted to point people to a post that Dan Provost made just today from Studio Neat

00:14:56   about lens switching on the iPhone X.

00:15:00   turns out basically he's trying to figure out when the iPhones switch

00:15:04   because the iPhone 7 plus in low-light conditions will opt for a digitally

00:15:10   zoomed image from the 1x camera over the 2x camera not digitally zoomed in in

00:15:17   these low-light conditions where Apple has decided that the camera in the 1x

00:15:24   digitally zoomed is actually going to give you a higher quality picture than

00:15:28   the 2x in those very specific conditions and it will switch you over even without

00:15:32   you knowing and basically what he found is that the iPhone 10 is better in low

00:15:37   light conditions in the 2x camera and so it takes it it has to go down even

00:15:41   darker for it to switch over but he made a cool video where he put the two phones

00:15:47   in the glyph of course because studio need and I thought that was a nice

00:15:50   little tidbit speaking of people doing tests and actually find out what happens

00:15:54   I know, right? We can theorize all we want, but somebody could actually test it out and

00:15:59   see. If only I had infrared camera. I like how a lot of people found their old, like,

00:16:05   I actually do have one somewhere, their old camera that has a night mode. I actually,

00:16:10   I think my old Sony camera has this too, where it's, the night mode is essentially an infrared

00:16:14   mode. And then you could actually like tape over the infrared blaster and then go into

00:16:20   a dark place and actually take shots of the face ID stuff. So everybody's pulling out

00:16:27   their old cameras, their old digital camera. The footage looks like it's standard def instead

00:16:31   of high def. A better way might be to take like a modern high def home security camera,

00:16:35   a lot of those have night modes, and at least then you'll get an HD picture out of it. And

00:16:39   oh, I wanted to mention Steve Trotton-Smith, the person who likes to go through all sorts

00:16:43   of code dumps and other things. He's hacking through operating systems and firmware and

00:16:49   file formats and he had a thread on Twitter that I thought was really great

00:16:53   where he found that the portrait mode so in iPhone 8 and 10 8 plus and 10 if you

00:17:01   do portrait mode you get those portrait lighting effects and they're they're

00:17:08   editable you can actually edit them later you can edit them on the desktop

00:17:12   on photos on High Sierra because it also supports editing those those depth modes

00:17:17   later. And what Steve Trouton-Smith found out is that if you take those shots on

00:17:23   iPhone 7 Plus in iOS 11 where it's using the Heif format, the container format, to

00:17:30   put the metadata in there and all that, he actually was able to edit the

00:17:33   metadata of an image shot on the iPhone 7 Plus in iOS 11 and make it work as a

00:17:40   portrait mode picture. Which is interesting because it suggests that for

00:17:46   some reason whether it's just for marketing reasons or whether there were

00:17:49   there was a lack of confidence in the result could be either I don't want to

00:17:56   say just definitively that it's a marketing constraint but you can

00:18:01   actually change those picture shot on iPhone 7 plus with 11 I think they have

00:18:05   to be on 11 because they have to have the depth data baked into the file

00:18:08   format instead of just a flat file that it will work and so theoretically

00:18:15   somebody could write a script that takes iPhone 7 Plus, iOS 11 pictures and

00:18:21   modifies them so that they are they can use a depth effect after the fact which

00:18:26   is uh it's kind of cool and interesting I like that he did that I don't

00:18:30   necessarily like the idea that Apple may have hobbled that feature on the iPhone

00:18:33   7 Plus so they could sell new phones if that's the case well there's a grand

00:18:37   tradition of you know doing that try making features exclusive to a new

00:18:41   product to make it more attractive.

00:18:43   And it's always the game of people,

00:18:47   depending on what your attitude is towards Apple,

00:18:49   that they're sneaky and are always

00:18:50   trying to get one over on you.

00:18:52   Literally everything that can only be on a new device

00:18:54   is because Apple is sneaky and really it

00:18:55   could be done on the old device.

00:18:57   And then the opposite of saying Apple would never do that

00:18:59   and the truth is somewhere in the middle,

00:19:01   but more towards Apple tends not to do that,

00:19:04   except in a few cases.

00:19:06   And a few cases, it's like they just

00:19:08   have enough to give a good value proposition to the new product.

00:19:13   And even when it seems clear that they are doing it just

00:19:16   to make the new product to differentiate

00:19:18   the new product from the old, there's

00:19:20   usually a kernel of truth to the technical explanation.

00:19:25   So in this case, it's like, oh, the old phones

00:19:27   would be too slow to capture, to show the portrait effect

00:19:30   in real time, rather.

00:19:31   You know how when you're taking the picture,

00:19:33   you can see the effect and see which one--

00:19:35   and the old phones can't do that.

00:19:37   They're not quite fast enough.

00:19:38   That could be true.

00:19:38   I don't know.

00:19:39   Someone can unlock it and try it and see what it's like.

00:19:42   Bottom line is, I think we all have

00:19:44   to accept that even if it was technically possible,

00:19:47   there's a cost to making it work on the older phones.

00:19:50   And sometimes if you're going to pick one or two features that

00:19:52   are used to differentiate your newer products,

00:19:55   make it be like animated emoji and some slightly frilly

00:19:59   portrait effects.

00:20:00   And that's fine.

00:20:01   That's much better than locking out

00:20:05   a quarter of your battery capacity in a Tesla

00:20:07   or something like that, right?

00:20:09   Like, how would you feel if you got your new iPhone

00:20:11   and it had a bigger battery than you thought,

00:20:14   but Apple just wouldn't ever let you see the last 25%

00:20:16   of capacity?

00:20:17   Like, that would be much worse.

00:20:18   So I'm comfortable living with both the uncertainty

00:20:21   and I would also be comfortable living with Apple saying,

00:20:23   actually, we made those for the iPhone X

00:20:24   because we need to differentiate our products

00:20:27   and actually would have been some extra work to make them

00:20:29   work on the older phones.

00:20:30   I like the idea that somebody, some enterprising person

00:20:32   can come up with a script to where you take your--

00:20:35   You know, you make a smart album in photos with your iPhone 7 Plus shots and drag them

00:20:43   out and run the, you know, and have, and process them.

00:20:46   And now they look like their iPhone 8 Plus or 10 shots and you get those features.

00:20:52   That's cool.

00:20:53   That's fun.

00:20:54   That's a fun thing that you get from poking around in the metadata format.

00:20:58   So.

00:20:59   Third party opportunity, but it would change the capture experience because if you can't

00:21:01   see it in real time, the process would be take the picture and then go to photos and

00:21:05   and then bring up the little wheel and then pick the one you want and then go back to

00:21:08   the camera and it's obviously much nicer to do it on the 10 all at once.

00:21:11   Yeah, take the picture with the depth effect on and then capture that data and then modify

00:21:15   it and all of that. Yeah. Many more things to talk about, but let me take a break and

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00:23:12   Thank you, FreshBooks, for supporting Upgrade. So there was a report over the weekend from

00:23:18   a bunch of different sources. Steve Trout and Smith, again, was in this. A guy named

00:23:24   Jonathan Levin, I saw Guillaume Rambeau was involved at some point with at least

00:23:30   tweeting about it. 9to5Mac wrote a story about it and then a bunch of other

00:23:33   people picked it up from there, which is this idea that there will be an A10

00:23:38   processor, so that's the processor inside the iPhone 7, that there will be an A10

00:23:45   processor inside the iMac Pro when it ships, maybe by the end of this year.

00:23:52   So full-on iPhone processor running inside a Mac and the report suggests that there's

00:23:58   a thing, an operating system called Bridge OS that will actually boot the computer and

00:24:03   then Bridge OS, which is running on the A10, hands off the EFI firmware stuff to boot on

00:24:13   the Intel processor.

00:24:14   So like the gatekeeper of this Mac is actually an iPhone processor.

00:24:20   What do you think about this?

00:24:21   Well, if you're going to put another fairly powerful CPU in a computer, it's great to

00:24:26   put it in one where the price starts at like five grand, isn't that what the iMac Pro starts

00:24:30   at?

00:24:31   It's very expensive, so no real concern about, "Oh, how much does it cost?"

00:24:35   And honestly, I'm not sure how much an A10 costs, but I doubt it's even close to what

00:24:39   the Intel CPU costs, just because it is, in many respects, Apple's IP, so they don't have

00:24:48   to pay another company for all of their IP.

00:24:49   They do have to pay for the ARM license.

00:24:51   And they've been making it for more than a year.

00:24:52   So presumably the cost of manufacture per unit is down.

00:24:56   And they can afford to do that.

00:24:57   And it's small.

00:24:58   It's just plain small.

00:24:58   A lot of silicon is just like, how big is the chip?

00:25:00   Because you only get a certain number on the wafer.

00:25:02   And the fabs are expensive.

00:25:03   And so it's small.

00:25:04   So it kind of makes sense.

00:25:07   We've already got the ARM chip in the MacBook Pros and stuff

00:25:11   with a touch bar that's running the touch bar screen

00:25:14   with the little miniature version of iOS.

00:25:17   It's kind of funny now.

00:25:18   We always say that it's like a miniature version of iOS running on these chips,

00:25:23   whereas back in the day we used to say the phones are running a miniature version of Mac OS X.

00:25:27   It's all the same thing. It's all Darwin, that kernel, and various degrees of being

00:25:31   stripped down. Same thing with the phone, right? Not the phone, the watch.

00:25:34   It may seem like Apple has a lot of operating systems, but these are all

00:25:38   derived from the same family tree, and they're just various specializations of it.

00:25:44   Anyway, as for this being in the iMac Pro, it makes some sense to me.

00:25:49   Like, the idea of continuing to, some people would say continuing to lock down the Mac,

00:25:53   and I would just say continuing to try to make the Mac more secure, make it follow in

00:25:57   the footsteps of iOS devices, which do much more to verify that the code they're actually

00:26:03   running is the code that Apple expects them to run.

00:26:06   That's why it gets increasingly hard to jailbreak them, and to get in, you know, that's why

00:26:09   it's hard for law enforcement to get into someone's phone.

00:26:16   It's meant to be secure.

00:26:18   And the best way Apple has to enable that security

00:26:21   is to control as much as they can from the boot process.

00:26:25   From this thing is completely turned off to it is now running,

00:26:29   they want to control aspects of that.

00:26:32   Why does it need to be an A10 if all it's doing

00:26:35   is verifying that the thing it's about to boot

00:26:38   is what it expects it to be, right? And just using all the expertise and technology that they've

00:26:43   perfected over the years for the iPhone on the Mac. A10 seems like overkill. If, on the other

00:26:50   hand, it is doing other important things while the computer is running, like, for example,

00:26:54   being there to listen for the whole telephone, which is another thing that this investigation

00:26:57   has essentially revealed that is definitely a thing. That makes some sense. I mean, do you

00:27:02   need an A10 to listen for the whole telephone? Probably not. I think they do that on the little

00:27:06   M7 processor and you know, they have like a little processor that just wakes up when it hears a high telephone or whatever

00:27:11   but the big one is face ID, which as far as everyone knows the iMac Pro does not have but

00:27:19   Presumably this is not the one only iMac Pro that will ever be created

00:27:23   and if you wanted to make another iMac Pro in

00:27:28   8 to 12 months that has face ID that

00:27:31   810 sitting in there

00:27:35   might be more help or maybe not because this is this is the thing with the a10 and

00:27:40   A lot of people think once you have that processor in there. It's like having an iPhone inside your Mac

00:27:45   It really depends on what that processor is connected to so one of the questions that I see here

00:27:53   And now it says what about the iOS simulator developers who write their applications on?

00:27:59   their Mac

00:28:00   to be deployed on iPhones and iPads have a simulator in the development tools that will run their application in a little virtual

00:28:06   iOS device on their screen

00:28:09   And when that happens

00:28:11   As you know up until today what happens is it compiles their code?

00:28:17   Not for an ARM processor on a phone

00:28:19   But it compiles it for the x86 processor on their Mac and then it runs natively in x86 on their Mac

00:28:25   Mac. And that used to be way faster than iOS devices, but nowadays, depending on how things

00:28:30   are implemented, it can actually be slower, especially if the OpenGL implementation is

00:28:33   not efficient. Our friend James Thompson said that the main

00:28:37   reason I think that his about screen that's got the car game in it, the main reason that

00:28:44   that is in the Mac version is because he needed to test it on the Mac version because he couldn't

00:28:49   like, he can't test it in the simulator in iOS because—I don't want to get it

00:28:56   wrong, but that was my understanding—it's like, the simulator in iOS, he can't do

00:29:01   it because it's too slow.

00:29:02   Yeah, and there were some problems with it because they need to map from the world of

00:29:06   Metal and OpenGL ES on the iOS devices to the world of the crappy old OpenGL implementation

00:29:11   on the Mac, and sometimes that mapping is not done well or is entirely disabled because

00:29:16   there's a bug in it, it falls back to software mode, and it just becomes unusably slow.

00:29:20   But anyway, all this is to say that you don't need an ARM processor to run the simulator,

00:29:24   but if you had one, wouldn't it be great?

00:29:25   We can compile our applications down to the actual native ARM code for the A10 in this

00:29:31   case and run it in the quote-unquote "simulator" that's not really simulating, it's just really

00:29:35   running it.

00:29:36   For that to happen, that A10 would have to be an active participant in the running of

00:29:40   the system.

00:29:41   It would have to have access to the program that's in memory and be able to influence

00:29:45   what is displayed on the screen, and so on and so forth.

00:29:48   That is mostly in conflict with its rumored role

00:29:51   as the security gatekeeper for the boot process,

00:29:55   and also envisions a much more complicated system

00:29:59   where two CPUs of different architectures

00:30:01   have equal influence over actual running applications that

00:30:03   display things on the screen.

00:30:05   So with the limited information that's been revealed so far,

00:30:08   it seems unlikely to me that the ATAN or whatever is inside

00:30:11   there will be hooked up in such a way

00:30:14   that it can run applications and display them on the screen.

00:30:17   But who knows?

00:30:18   Because the thing that runs the touch bar,

00:30:19   that little tiny ARM processor, it

00:30:21   has its own little screen to display things on.

00:30:24   Like, who knows what Apple has planned for this in there?

00:30:27   But if it really is an A10, I would

00:30:29   have to think that their plans extend farther

00:30:31   than verifying the security of everything

00:30:35   before kicking off the boot process.

00:30:36   Because that seems like an awful waste of computing resources.

00:30:40   The rest of the time, the A10 is like, ho-hum.

00:30:43   I did such a good job on boot. I'll just power down here and I'll just hang out.

00:30:46   Well, yeah, my gut feeling is that this is obviously going to do more over time. At least

00:30:52   that's Apple's intent. But maybe not in the iMac Pro, if that makes any sense. I think Apple says,

00:30:59   "Look, we have these chips that we designed. We know how great they are. It's an advantage for us.

00:31:05   No PC is going to have this, so we can use it to make the Mac better, too. Use our knowledge,

00:31:12   glean from building all of these other products to make the Mac better without

00:31:15   just making a Mac that runs entirely on an A10 or an A11 necessarily. But maybe

00:31:22   the first one is let's just have a do let's stick it in there and see what

00:31:26   happens. Let's try these new things. Let's try the Bridge OS. Let's do the, you know,

00:31:30   the Siri kickoff listening stuff that Macs currently can't do. Maybe some other

00:31:34   security stuff is baked in there, but it's like let's just pick a few things

00:31:38   things and try it out and see and maybe you know maybe that's all that will be

00:31:43   above the waterline for the iMac Pro but they're already you know planning a

00:31:49   rollout that would do more over time you know there was a Mark Gurman report back

00:31:55   in February I want to say where he talked about this like hybrid Mac that

00:31:59   sounded and he was I think it was in a laptop context but it was something that

00:32:03   he was reporting that suggested there was like low laptops could use it in a

00:32:07   low-power mode where it would like the the ARM chip would be able to like check

00:32:11   your email in the background and things like that which seem like you were saying

00:32:14   that's a lot of weird kind of handoff and integration where you've got two

00:32:18   processors that are that are running the same system that seems pretty bizarre

00:32:23   but I could imagine Apple saying what you know once we've got this thing in

00:32:27   there we can start to build the Mac to be an operating system that it takes

00:32:32   advantage of this hybrid design instead of just running on the Intel processor

00:32:36   but you know it's not gonna you know the Mac iMac Pro would be like a first or

00:32:42   arguably because of the touch bar a second iteration on probably a long path

00:32:47   to getting more of those features visible it's like the starting point yeah

00:32:51   and also I wouldn't I'm not entirely again about knowing how this is

00:32:54   connected like how it's connected to hardware wise in the system or what what

00:32:58   role does it play if you were to draw a block diagram of this entire system it's

00:33:03   not even clear to me that it's what's powering the whole telephone because I

00:33:06   feel like an iMac Pro has CPU to spare to listen for [AUDIO OUT]

00:33:11   Like, not a feature that you required ARM processor,

00:33:13   just because--

00:33:14   The Hoy telephone.

00:33:15   --came on iOS devices first.

00:33:16   I'm sorry if I'm activating everybody's phones.

00:33:19   Just because they came out on phones first, like, oh,

00:33:22   now they're getting an A10.

00:33:23   Now they can do a Hoy telephone.

00:33:24   The iMac Pro is going to have monster processors in it.

00:33:27   There's no reason you need to do it--

00:33:28   The Hoy telephone.

00:33:29   --on a coprocessor.

00:33:30   It's just-- it'll work fine on the umpteen core Xeon that

00:33:33   is in there, right?

00:33:34   So I don't-- you know, just because someone discovered

00:33:36   The Hoy telephone.

00:33:37   —is in there.

00:33:37   Doesn't mean that it relies on the ATN processor.

00:33:40   Maybe it could.

00:33:40   Maybe there's some code sharing that they get away with that.

00:33:42   But it doesn't have to.

00:33:44   And so I'm left continuing to wonder what

00:33:47   the ATN might be used for.

00:33:50   And really, it really depends on how it's hooked up.

00:33:53   And as for the hybrid thing, I think

00:33:55   I mentioned this on a past ADP.

00:33:56   The thing that comes to my mind that actually also, I believe,

00:33:59   is a hybrid x86 ARM system that does other stuff with the ARM

00:34:05   CPU while the system is ostensibly asleep is the PlayStation 4.

00:34:10   And it was designed this way with the same type of arrangement.

00:34:12   Oh, when you're using your PlayStation 4, we're using an x86 CPU and a really big GPU,

00:34:16   and you're playing your games and stuff.

00:34:18   But when you put it into "rest mode," then we shut all that stuff down, but there's another

00:34:22   little processor off to the side that takes very little power, and that does stuff when

00:34:26   your system is basically off.

00:34:28   Like the fan is not running anymore, like maybe a light is pulsing on it or whatever,

00:34:32   but it makes no noise, and you think it's off.

00:34:33   This is the rest mode that the PlayStation 4 has.

00:34:36   But because there's another processor available, actually, we can do stuff like download our

00:34:40   software updates for your games, like these multi-gigabyte patches to games, so that next

00:34:44   morning when you go to play your game, "Oh, we've already downloaded that update for you

00:34:47   in your sleep."

00:34:48   Or maybe we updated your entire operating system and rebooted the thing for you.

00:34:51   I've heard at various times that this hybrid arrangement was more troublesome than they

00:34:56   had expected, and actually they merely run the x86 CPU in low-power mode to get the job

00:35:01   done, which maybe speaks to how difficult it is to have two different CPUs in two different

00:35:08   architectures, sharing resources, particularly the disk, but maybe also memory, and have

00:35:13   that work in a seamless way.

00:35:15   But either way, it shows that someone else had the same idea, that I have a big hot CPU,

00:35:20   which the iMac Pro will have, to use when you're really using it, and I have a wimpy,

00:35:24   cool CPU to do stuff when you're offline.

00:35:27   But the architecture difference really makes me wonder what's going on there.

00:35:31   This is also the kind of thing where Apple is probably not

00:35:33   going to come out and tell you, like,

00:35:35   there's no WWDC session on this.

00:35:37   Let me tell you how we implemented this hybrid CPU

00:35:40   arrangement.

00:35:41   Unless it's a developer-facing API, and maybe in that session

00:35:45   someone will brag about how they did it.

00:35:47   But otherwise, it's just going to be

00:35:48   people looking at how the things are connected.

00:35:50   And clever people like Steve Drouton-Smith and Guillermo

00:35:53   Rambo figuring it out for us and telling us,

00:35:56   how is that connected to everything else?

00:35:58   And how can we work together to do something cool with it?

00:36:03   Yeah, I mean, instantly you start to think about things like,

00:36:06   oh, well, if they built a touchscreen Mac that also had--

00:36:09   could you also run iOS apps?

00:36:11   Or could you reboot into iOS or something like that?

00:36:13   It's like, well, maybe, but that's super weird.

00:36:16   That's a hell of a waste of an iMac, with no touchscreen on it, by the way.

00:36:19   Well, no, that's what I was thinking is, oh, man,

00:36:21   if the iMac Pro is a touchscreen iMac that runs iOS, too, then I'm in.

00:36:28   But that's not happening.

00:36:29   You don't want people putting their grimy fingers

00:36:32   on your 5K display.

00:36:33   Probably not.

00:36:35   Probably not.

00:36:35   Only when it's tilted beyond a certain angle.

00:36:37   It's a threshold of fingerprint acceptability.

00:36:40   Vertical, no touch.

00:36:41   Now it starts tilting.

00:36:42   It starts tilting.

00:36:43   You're like, at a certain point, you're like, all right,

00:36:44   you can touch the screen.

00:36:45   Now it's like the-- what is it, the Surface Studio,

00:36:47   the Microsoft thing?

00:36:48   I'm not going to let anybody touch my Mac Pro with me.

00:36:50   What if it was leaning really far down, like almost flat?

00:36:53   Yeah, sure.

00:36:54   No, I think I'm going to write an article at some point.

00:36:57   I did the math a while ago about like the various screen sizes and all of that.

00:37:01   And I totally would be into a Microsoft Surface Studio kind of thing running iOS.

00:37:10   I want Apple to do that sooner rather than later. I don't know if they will.

00:37:15   I think that job one is to get the iPad sales growing, which they're starting to do.

00:37:22   But I would be really, I'd be super intrigued by a, you know, basically like desktop-ish iOS device.

00:37:28   But I actually saw, was it Steven Sinofsky? I saw somebody interesting on Twitter say that, you know,

00:37:36   one of Apple's next steps may be not to make a weird hybrid Mac thingy that is iOS and Mac,

00:37:44   but to just embrace the laptop form factor and just make an iOS laptop. Like, it's not an iPad

00:37:51   with a case, just like, "No, this is a little laptop that runs iOS, and it looks like the

00:37:55   MacBook, but it's just iOS, and you can't take the keyboard off and enjoy." And just see what

00:38:03   would happen, because people might love that or they might hate it. I don't know.

00:38:07   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah, no, I think that is,

00:38:08   based on how they've been going, that seems like a logical way station before you get to the 27-inch

00:38:15   iPad Pro, right? Before you get to the iPad that is plugged in all the time, essentially.

00:38:20   the service, because everybody's using their iPads, including you, as little crappy laptops

00:38:26   with a bad hinge, essentially.

00:38:27   Like, you have to find some way to prop up this floppy little keyboard, and, you know,

00:38:32   like, boy, if this was just—and you have those Logitech cases that sort of clamp onto

00:38:35   the bottom of your iPad and make it into a little laptop, and it's like, just Apple,

00:38:39   just weld the suckers together.

00:38:41   Give me an iPad with a keyboard attached to it.

00:38:44   It's a form factor.

00:38:45   We all know and love it.

00:38:46   It'll work great.

00:38:47   And, assuming they get their keyboard issues worked out, it should be something that they

00:38:50   much better than even the best Logitech little clampy thing that turns your iPad into a keyboard.

00:38:56   Because that's not a speculative use case. People are doing that today.

00:38:59   I use my iPad as a laptop all the time. I have the Brydge keyboard, which has got a

00:39:03   little clampy thing, and you just kind of drop it in, and it's a laptop. And then you

00:39:07   pull it out, and it's a tablet again. And if Apple could do that, the problem there

00:39:11   is that Microsoft has done that, and a bunch of other companies have done convertibles.

00:39:15   And there are lots of ergonomic issues with it, and I can see why Apple might not want

00:39:18   to do that, but that's fine. Just make it a laptop and see because an iPad in laptop

00:39:23   mode is pretty great and I think people would like it.

00:39:27   Yeah, and it can be kind of convertible. You don't have to tear the keyboard off. Like

00:39:30   you don't have to go the fold. Just fold it back.

00:39:32   Fold it back. Yeah, exactly right. Totally do that. I think that's the next thing I want

00:39:37   to see from iOS, honestly, is I want a weird iOS device. I want a not a spin-off watch.

00:39:44   The eMate running iOS.

00:39:45   Right? I mean, I kind of do. The eMate is actually a great analog, which is like, "Oh,

00:39:49   wait a second. I thought this was just these little handheld things and you made a laptop

00:39:52   out of it?" It's like, "Yeah, I kind of want that. I want a weird iOS device that's not

00:39:57   an Apple TV, not a watch, not some sort of spin-off device that runs a version of iOS."

00:40:01   But like, no, this is running apps. It's not an iPad. It's not an iPhone. It's this thing.

00:40:07   And I would love for them to do that. I think that's interesting questioning for Apple about

00:40:12   what do you sometimes I think Apple doesn't want to make any product unless

00:40:17   it's going to be a hit so they don't want to make a weird product that people

00:40:22   might not like like well no if everybody isn't going to love it then we want to

00:40:25   do it but at some point you want to have a product line right you want to have

00:40:29   well you can get the macbook at the 13 inch macbook pro or the 15 inch at some

00:40:33   point like yeah okay you get the iPad pro and the iPad you've got this thing

00:40:37   whatever it is you got the you know you and take your pic slide right in there I

00:40:42   I would love to see that.

00:40:43   - I know a lot of current Mac laptop users

00:40:46   who would love the key travel on the E-Mate.

00:40:48   - I wanna talk about laptop designs a little bit

00:40:51   in a little while, but first I wanted to mention

00:40:53   another thing that happened last week,

00:40:54   which is that the HomePod got delayed.

00:40:56   This is one of those, and I saw a bunch of people saying,

00:40:59   "Whoa, this is really surprising."

00:41:02   And my reaction was, "No, I feel like Apple

00:41:06   introduces hardware in June and says it'll ship

00:41:08   at the end of the year."

00:41:10   Did we not all, those of us who observe Apple, go, "Eh, maybe."

00:41:15   Maybe.

00:41:16   Yeah, exactly.

00:41:17   What they did was announce the thing that everybody else already knew.

00:41:20   Yeah, so when they did that, there are legitimate questions about why you announced it there,

00:41:25   other than the fact that the rumors were swirling.

00:41:28   Did they need to announce it there?

00:41:29   There was no developer story.

00:41:30   I have a theory that they originally intended for there to be a developer story, and then

00:41:35   they didn't have it ready, and so they didn't have a developer story.

00:41:39   was I'm starting to believe that way more now because I think iOS 11.2 has

00:41:46   SiriKit for HomePod in it which is not something they talked about in June that

00:41:54   there would be any kind of tie-in between SiriKit and apps running on

00:41:57   iPhone and HomePod and yet it seems to be happening now so that makes me wonder

00:42:03   if like some of the delay here may be that the software and the end this

00:42:07   developer story, whether they changed course, or whether it was always just kind of lagging

00:42:11   and they were hoping to get it back up to speed. But I think it's arguable, like, did

00:42:17   they really need to introduce it because it wasn't ready. All they were doing with the

00:42:21   press was having them listen to the speakers. You couldn't interact with it in any way.

00:42:26   Anytime Apple announces hardware and says it's going to be months before it's ready,

00:42:31   for me, I immediately go, "Oh, well, if it's ready by then," because when it's that far

00:42:36   there's just so many things that could go wrong.

00:42:38   Well, the tradition is that if they show hardware that early,

00:42:42   that the thing that's going to make it not ship

00:42:44   is that the software is not ready.

00:42:46   Like, that's the traditional Apple way.

00:42:47   Like, oh, the hardware actually is ready,

00:42:49   because the hardware team has their stuff together,

00:42:51   and they have a more limited domain.

00:42:53   But the software is the more difficult thing.

00:42:55   And yeah, so when they only showed the HomePod with music,

00:42:58   it was so clear, even Apple itself,

00:43:00   that this is not the full story of this product.

00:43:02   Despite the fact that all we can show you is music,

00:43:04   In their brief presentation, they

00:43:06   alluded to non-music uses, like, will we

00:43:09   be able to talk to the HomePod?

00:43:10   Oh, yes, of course you'll be able to talk to your HomePod.

00:43:12   Not today, obviously.

00:43:13   Like, don't talk to it now.

00:43:14   It won't hear you.

00:43:15   But, you know, eventually you will.

00:43:16   And it's like, what will I be able to say to the HomePod?

00:43:19   Will it be like--

00:43:19   The Huawei telephone.

00:43:20   Sorry, I'm activating everybody's things today.

00:43:22   Will it be like the Google Home?

00:43:24   And Apple was not sharing anything about that.

00:43:26   And so we were left to speculate.

00:43:28   But it was clear that this was not iPod Hi-Fi Mark II, right?

00:43:32   That you were going to be able to talk to this.

00:43:34   cylindrical. And we all know if it's cylindrical, you can talk to it. That's the rule of the

00:43:39   Internet of Things as established by Amazon.

00:43:41   That's what I tell my fire hydrant outside my house every day.

00:43:44   You say, "Fire hydrant? What's the weather today?" And it just doesn't answer.

00:43:48   "Hail hydrant," I say. That's the activation code for it.

00:43:51   Wow, very controversial plot development. So yeah. And why didn't they demonstrate it?

00:43:56   Like, a feature that they said this thing is going to have, but they can't tell us anything

00:43:59   about it and they're not going to demonstrate it? Because the software's not ready. So I'm

00:44:03   I'm assuming that the software still isn't ready, and that's why the HomePod is being

00:44:13   delayed until next year.

00:44:14   That's fine.

00:44:15   I'm in no hurry.

00:44:16   Here's the thing.

00:44:17   When they say, "And it will be shipping in December," it's like, why even bother saying

00:44:21   that?

00:44:22   Even if you could hit that date, you've missed the holidays, so why even bother?

00:44:25   For bragging rights, for participation medal, we technically shipped on December 24th.

00:44:30   It doesn't matter.

00:44:31   the holidays if you're not shipping hardware in October,

00:44:34   essentially.

00:44:35   So the iMac Pro can ship on December 28th, and it's fine.

00:44:38   It's not a big stocking stuffer.

00:44:39   It's not a stocking stuffer, exactly right.

00:44:41   But the HomePod, you could see that people were probably

00:44:43   thinking, oh, that might be a great thing

00:44:45   to put under the tree.

00:44:46   And that's not going to happen now.

00:44:48   I do wonder if there are HomePods built and ready to go,

00:44:53   and it's all a software issue, just

00:44:55   like how a bunch of iPhone 10s immediately

00:44:57   wanted to do a software update.

00:44:59   They got built so long ago, they need a software update now.

00:45:01   they were ready to go, but that the software is just not is not there. I agree with you.

00:45:06   I think it's more likely that it's a hard it's a software issue than a hardware issue

00:45:09   just because Apple tends to be really solid with the hardware. And this is a complex new

00:45:15   product that's got a lot of software in it. And they just made a new introduction with

00:45:19   the HomeKit stuff that was not there before. So that's another piece of the puzzle that

00:45:24   maybe I've seen a couple analysts say the state of the market has changed enough in

00:45:28   last six months that it's also possible that Apple decided to recalibrate the

00:45:32   product a little bit and change a little bit about how it works. I'm not sure if I

00:45:35   believe that or not. There's only so much. What can they change at this point? It's written by people who don't

00:45:39   understand what goes into making a product. They can change the software.

00:45:44   A little bit. But I think the problem is that by the time it takes to make the

00:45:48   change to catch up to the last six months, another six months will have passed.

00:45:53   And at some point you just gotta ship it. Just get it out there and

00:45:57   then if you can do some software updates later, do them. But there's no doubt that whatever

00:46:04   is going on, they would have sold as many as they could have made, I think, for the

00:46:09   holidays. And so this is a big thing just in terms of saying, "No, we can't do it."

00:46:14   Essentially, spend your stocking stuff or money, your $450 speaker money somewhere else

00:46:21   or don't spend it at all, but you can't spend it with us because we can't do it.

00:46:25   said that in September. That's the thing. When they made this announcement in September,

00:46:29   they were announcing, "You can't buy this for Christmas this year." Even with their

00:46:34   ship date, when they say shipping in December, it's staying to the entire world. So why announce

00:46:38   it? If it's staying to the entire world, you will not be able to get this for Christmas

00:46:41   for anybody unless you are incredibly lucky, but probably you won't be able to.

00:46:46   They pre-announced their failure to make the holiday season. But why announce it at all?

00:46:51   I think that announcing it was the right move, because at that point, it was an open secret

00:46:57   that they were doing something like this.

00:46:59   It was such a fervent rumor, and other competitors were making moves.

00:47:04   I think Apple needed to put a stake in the ground and say, "We are going to enter this

00:47:11   market not today, but as soon as we can."

00:47:15   And the end-of-the-year date is one of those kind of, "Let's be aggressive, and let's

00:47:19   to look better in press releases because if it was next year, it crosses some line. And

00:47:23   everybody says, "Apple announces a product, but it won't even ship till next year." Whereas

00:47:27   if you announce it as December, then you get to do this delay later. Maybe they were aiming

00:47:31   for December again. Shipping anything in December doesn't make any sense to me. They did the

00:47:35   same thing with the iMacs. Remember when they announced iMac, not the iMac Pro, but a while

00:47:39   ago one of the iMacs was announced to ship in December or something? And I think that

00:47:43   one also slipped. It's like, it's an admission of defeat that we are announcing that we have

00:47:48   failed to meet this holiday quarter, but it would make no sense to delay it until the

00:47:52   next holiday, so we're going to get it out to you as soon as possible. But with the HomePod,

00:47:55   they just wanted the world to know Apple is entering this market. So I think it was the

00:47:58   right move to announce it.

00:48:00   I do agree about the mental boundary of 2018, because the AirPower mat is the example, right?

00:48:08   They announced the AirPower mat and the new charging thing for the AirPods, and they're

00:48:12   like, "This will happen in 2018." And literally, I had this visceral response, which was like,

00:48:17   2018, are you kidding? But if they had said, "Well, it's late 2017," I would have been

00:48:24   like, "Oh, okay. That's not far. This is 2017. That's this year. Great."

00:48:28   Yeah, it's like when you leave work for the holidays and you say, "See you next year."

00:48:32   It's the same people.

00:48:36   Would you buy one? Are you interested in this product? You've got Google Home stuff in your

00:48:40   house, right?

00:48:41   I'm kind of interested in it, especially now that some leak has revealed, apparently, that

00:48:45   can actually make them work as a stereo pair. Like, one can be left channel, one can be

00:48:49   right channel. Well, that would be... no, that's true. They told us that. That they

00:48:56   will... you can pair them. They told us you can have more than one of them, but it wasn't

00:48:59   clear to me from their announcement whether you can just have more than one of them and

00:49:02   they'll figure out how to fill the room with sound. That was something they knew. They

00:49:05   told us that at our not-a-briefing listening party in a grove somewhere that I can't admit

00:49:11   that it happened.

00:49:12   Anyway, that makes a difference to me because I'm not expecting this particular cylinder

00:49:17   to be as good a conversation in terms of what can I say and how much do I have to think

00:49:23   about saying it.

00:49:24   Based on my experience with Siri, Google Home is far superior.

00:49:28   A far superior conversationalist.

00:49:30   So sure, the main selling points for me, for the Apple thing, are it has ties to Apple

00:49:37   ecosystem and I have some things in the Apple ecosystem, so there could be some synergies

00:49:41   For example, my photos are an Apple's photos thing.

00:49:46   And what else do I have?

00:49:47   I don't have my calendar there, so I can't use that.

00:49:49   But anyway, there is some synergy there.

00:49:51   And the big pitch that they did make was, this sounds really good.

00:49:54   And Google Home does not sound good.

00:49:56   And I don't really have anything that I can talk to to ask it to play

00:49:59   music that sounds very good.

00:50:00   So I might be interested to try one of these as a far superior way

00:50:05   to fill a room with music with the ease of a voice command.

00:50:11   Unfortunately, I subscribe to Google Play Music,

00:50:13   and I don't subscribe to Apple Music.

00:50:15   So I'm not sure this synergy works out for me buying one.

00:50:17   So I haven't made a hard and fast decision yet.

00:50:19   Most likely, I'll read the reviews

00:50:22   and see what everyone thinks about it.

00:50:24   I will probably succumb to my curiosity and buy one,

00:50:26   but I will also have to try to find a literal physical place

00:50:29   in the house to put it.

00:50:30   Because I don't have that much room for cylinders,

00:50:33   and it's not clear to me whether this should be in the kitchen/dining room area or the

00:50:37   living room area or someplace else. So I guess count me as on the fence.

00:50:43   Yeah, so my big difference is that I am an Apple Music subscriber and I really like it.

00:50:49   I like it. I like the playlists that they make. I'm at my desk a lot and working on

00:50:57   my Mac and for all the things that I can complain about about iTunes, it works pretty well at

00:51:04   playing my music and even integrating and letting me switch very easily between my purchased

00:51:10   music library and my Apple Music streaming library. And so one of my frustrations with

00:51:18   the Echo is that it doesn't do that. And to the point where we have the one sort of centrally

00:51:25   located Echo in the kitchen and I bought the one device Amazon Music Streaming

00:51:30   package for that which is cheap because it's only on a single device just so

00:51:35   that it has access to every song we can ask it to play. I would prefer to use

00:51:43   Apple Music. I think the challenge is that this is a starkly an

00:51:47   ecosystem play where Amazon wants you to pay for Amazon's music thing, but I

00:51:52   don't want to use Amazon's music thing on my Mac and my iPhone. I want to use

00:51:56   Apple Music. So the great advantage of the HomePod is that it would give us

00:52:01   voice control of music using Apple Music and I wouldn't have to worry about these

00:52:04   other services. It does seem a little bit silly to have services have hardware

00:52:10   based on services. It also seems a little bit silly to buy the same service

00:52:14   essentially multiple times because you have different boxes from different

00:52:17   manufacturers and the nice thing about Sonos is that it does do Apple Music.

00:52:21   The problem is that all their voice integration stuff that they've announced

00:52:24   doesn't support Apple Music. It supports Amazon's music service because Amazon

00:52:29   doesn't want you to play Apple Music from an Echo for logical reasons. So it's

00:52:34   frustrating all that you know ecosystem back and forth but it does make the home

00:52:39   pod more interesting to me just because I've seen how we use the Echo and if it

00:52:45   sounded better and had access to the entire Apple Music library and all my

00:52:49   playlists and all of that you know which it will it doesn't make it does make it

00:52:55   more interesting to me the presence of Siri does not excite me as much as it

00:52:59   does

00:52:59   Apple Music just because I am an Apple Music customer. Remember when that platform

00:53:03   lock-in was so much simpler where it was just the "I bought Photoshop and

00:53:06   Microsoft Office for the Mac and if I switch to Windows I have to rebuy that

00:53:10   expensive software" and that was it and now we're talking about I pay some

00:53:14   company far away to give me access to all the world's music that they keep on their

00:53:18   servers. But I can only play that music through certain pieces of hardware devices that are

00:53:23   either made by them or partnered with them, but other people will sell me hardware devices

00:53:27   that interact with other things that I pay people to store for me on their computers.

00:53:30   It's just like this massively distributed, huge, world-spanning virtual goods marketplace

00:53:35   instead of "I bought Photoshop for the Mac and it cost $600 and if I switched to Windows

00:53:40   I'd have to buy another cardboard box with Photoshop."

00:53:42   Yeah, it reminds me of the VHS and Beta days, which were a long time ago, but it's that

00:53:47   same thing of like, "You must choose! You must choose!"

00:53:50   But it's so much more complicated, as you just outlined. It's not just software and

00:53:55   hardware and match. There's all these middle players, and the things that we're buying

00:53:58   are not even things that is like access to the world's music, and access to an arrangement

00:54:03   of songs that either we established for you or that you've established. Like, my playlists

00:54:08   are in Apple Music, both the ones I manually made and the cool ones they make for me. And

00:54:11   And then the music itself is kind of the same for the services, but maybe one artist that

00:54:16   I care about is on one service more than the other, or I'm super into classical or video

00:54:19   game music, that's better represented on this service.

00:54:21   And it's just very complicated.

00:54:23   It's not as bad as the Internet of Things home automation, I think, but it's close.

00:54:27   There are fewer players, and it's more well understood what it is that you're buying,

00:54:32   but it's not consumer-friendly at all.

00:54:34   We just want access to our stuff the way that we want it, when we want it, on the things

00:54:39   want, but these companies have other plans for us.

00:54:42   Yeah, yes they do. Yes they do. As consumers, we have the power to reject them, but they

00:54:48   know how to get us.

00:54:51   You can just keep using your iPod Hi-Fi. That's the question. If you get one of these and

00:54:54   you listen to your music on it, have you already stopped using your iPod Hi-Fi?

00:54:57   No, I use it. It's plugged in via the AUX port. It's plugged into my Mac. So that's

00:55:02   where I listen to all of my music and audio from my Mac is the iPod Hi-Fi.

00:55:06   All right, but if you got the HomePod, would you disconnect that and just talk to your

00:55:10   new little pudgy cylinder?

00:55:12   No, no, because this is just all controlled by my keyboard and stuff on my Mac, and so

00:55:18   it's perfect.

00:55:19   It's basically a Mac speaker.

00:55:20   If I buy the HomePod, it'll be out in the living room, kitchen, dining area, somewhere

00:55:25   out in that.

00:55:27   As you know, we have one big room that is the kitchen and the living room and the dining

00:55:30   room.

00:55:31   It's all one big, long room.

00:55:32   and I would put it somewhere in there, like we have the Echo.

00:55:36   And that's what it would be for.

00:55:37   So would this be displacing another cylinder,

00:55:39   or would this be augmenting?

00:55:41   That's a real good question.

00:55:42   It might be augmenting, which is then you got them fighting it

00:55:44   out, which is scary.

00:55:45   That's right.

00:55:46   You got to have them talk to each other.

00:55:47   It'll be great.

00:55:47   Oh, boy.

00:55:49   Let's take a break.

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00:57:21   your support of this show and all of Relay FM. Speaking of things that I

00:57:25   I wrote last week, because that is sort of one of the things that happens on this show.

00:57:29   I wrote this thing for Macworld about people who are grumpy about Apple's laptop designs.

00:57:36   And it was funny because I've had that on my to-do list for a long time. And then I

00:57:41   pitched it to Macworld a couple weeks ago and they said, "That sounds like a good

00:57:44   column idea." Because one of the things I do is I have my story ideas and every now

00:57:47   and then I'm like, "That looks like a Macworld idea. I'll save that for the Macworld

00:57:50   that I write every week. And so I was like, "We'll do it next week." And the day I was

00:57:56   sitting down to write at Marco wrote his story on his website, noted blogger Marco Arment,

00:58:03   who writes a blog post every so often, about how he loves the 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro

00:58:09   and considers it the best laptop ever made. And his point there is that Apple is—Apple's

00:58:14   current line of laptops are not the best laptops ever made. They are a regression. And my story

00:58:20   was basically saying, "I'm trying to do some analysis of why people are grumpy

00:58:25   about the MacBook line," especially since Apple is talking about how Macs had

00:58:29   record revenue and the MacBook line really drove out the average selling

00:58:32   price of the Mac up and all these things. And my theory is that this is at least

00:58:40   in part rooted in the fact that Apple is the single source for Mac hardware, and

00:58:44   that if Apple makes a clever opinionated product decision, as they so frequently do, and put

00:58:52   it across the board, and it bites you, you don't have anywhere to go. You are cornered.

00:58:58   You are stuck. And if you can't use that keyboard, let's say, on the MacBook Pro, Apple doesn't

00:59:05   make a laptop, nobody makes a laptop with a different keyboard that runs the Mac. So,

00:59:14   What do you think about this theory and do you think all this unrest that we hear in

00:59:20   our circles is maybe a little bit of selection bias where nerds are bothered by this but

00:59:28   the numbers show that other people aren't because they're still buying MacBook Pros?

00:59:33   This is always kind of an underlying fear of Apple customers and it takes various forms

00:59:39   But you can be afraid that

00:59:41   Apple is going to leave you behind

00:59:45   sometimes that can be

00:59:48   that they

00:59:49   they just start making products that are not suitable for your needs and they go after a larger market and

00:59:56   You feel left behind there

00:59:59   because

01:00:01   You always liked Apple's products, and if they stop making products for you you have to buy something else

01:00:06   You can't, like you said, you can't buy another person's Mac

01:00:09   compatible, except for that brief time

01:00:11   in the period of clones.

01:00:13   Yes.

01:00:14   You have to switch platforms then.

01:00:16   Other times, and it seems like what's happening now,

01:00:18   is it's not that Apple is consciously deciding

01:00:22   to leave you behind, but it's more

01:00:25   like they have traced a path to the future for users like you,

01:00:31   and it's uncomfortable.

01:00:33   And this has happened many times in the past.

01:00:36   And mostly Apple has been successful.

01:00:39   Removing lots of legacy ports is a great example,

01:00:42   where that annoyed a lot of people

01:00:44   who were using their computers with those legacy devices.

01:00:47   But in all those cases, after a fairly short period of time,

01:00:52   it was clear that they weren't actually leaving you

01:00:54   behind as a customer.

01:00:56   You just needed to sort of get with the times

01:00:58   and give up your ADB peripherals and give up your SCSI drives

01:01:02   in favor of FireWire.

01:01:04   And that's what people did.

01:01:05   And so it's different than they just decided they're not

01:01:10   going to be in this market anymore.

01:01:11   They're saying, this market is moving on,

01:01:13   and you need to come with it.

01:01:14   And customers adapt.

01:01:16   And they grumble, and then they adapt.

01:01:18   The tricky bit with the current laptop stuff

01:01:22   is it's not entirely clear yet which scenario are we in.

01:01:27   Has Apple decided that they're not

01:01:29   interested in these certain narrow kinds of quote,

01:01:32   unquote, "pro" customers?

01:01:34   Or have they decided that the market is moving on,

01:01:36   and all the pro customers need to come and adopt this?

01:01:39   And it's complicated by the Mac Pro stuff,

01:01:42   where for a long time it seemed like Apple had decided

01:01:45   that it doesn't want that corner of the market anymore.

01:01:48   The people who need a computer like the Mac Pro,

01:01:50   Apple doesn't want to make a computer like that anymore.

01:01:52   And Apple had essentially decided that.

01:01:54   The iMac Pro was going to be their answer.

01:01:56   And that is clearly very different from the customers

01:02:00   who use the big tower Mac, right?

01:02:03   And they were even going to stop making the cylinder, which

01:02:05   itself was different from the towers.

01:02:06   And they were just going to look at the iMac Pro as the future.

01:02:08   And if you don't like it, then you're

01:02:10   a market that we don't care about.

01:02:11   But they changed their mind.

01:02:12   OK, we made a miscalculation.

01:02:15   We do want that market, and we're

01:02:16   going to make a thing for you.

01:02:18   The laptops-- Apple, as far as I can tell,

01:02:20   does not think they're leaving the pro laptop market.

01:02:22   Every time they show the Mac Pro Pros,

01:02:24   they're like, look at all this stuff.

01:02:25   You're going to have people doing Final Cut,

01:02:26   and you've got two 5K displays hooked up to it,

01:02:29   and it's super powerful.

01:02:30   And Thunderbolt 3 is really fast,

01:02:32   and you've got this big RAID array connected to it,

01:02:34   and look at all-- you know, they think they are making

01:02:37   the product for pros, right?

01:02:39   So they're not leaving you behind where you feel like,

01:02:41   oh, Apple's not-- you know, like, the poor Aperture users.

01:02:44   Apple just decided they don't want

01:02:45   to be in this market for pro software.

01:02:47   It's just me and Lightroom, or that's it, or whatever.

01:02:49   Apple thinks they're not leaving you behind.

01:02:51   What they think they're doing is getting rid of SCSI ports

01:02:53   and ADB ports and saying, we're still

01:02:55   going to serve that market, but that market

01:02:57   needs to follow us forward into the future

01:02:59   by using all these fancy peripherals and stuff like that.

01:03:01   And it seems like there's an argument between a small subset

01:03:05   of the market and Apple about whether that future--

01:03:08   whether they want to come along.

01:03:09   They're like a dog on a leash.

01:03:10   Apple's trying to pull you into the future.

01:03:11   And they're saying, no, I don't want to go to that future,

01:03:13   because that future is worse.

01:03:15   And they elucidate all the reasons

01:03:16   you can read Marco's post.

01:03:19   So yeah, being cornered, being beholden to one company that

01:03:23   makes a thing to your satisfaction is difficult.

01:03:26   And there's always the danger that they

01:03:28   will stop serving that market.

01:03:29   And there's also the danger that they will--

01:03:31   that that market will move on, and that you will just not

01:03:33   be able to move on with it.

01:03:35   And I think we're in the midst of that argument.

01:03:38   And based on Apple's turnabout on the Mac Pro,

01:03:42   makes me think that there is some reconsideration

01:03:45   of the exact shape of the future.

01:03:47   It seems very clear to me that Apple does not

01:03:50   think it's leaving behind these pro users like Marco.

01:03:53   Marco feels left behind, but Apple

01:03:54   thinks they're not leaving it behind.

01:03:55   So there needs to be a meeting of the minds here.

01:03:57   There needs to be some kind of compromise,

01:03:59   Mario can't buy 2015 laptops forever, and Apple can't continue to make laptops that

01:04:06   this section of the market doesn't want, and continue to think that it's actually serving

01:04:10   that section of the market.

01:04:11   So in the same way, even though it's a tiny majority, like they sell like zero Mac Pros

01:04:15   compared to like all the rest of the stuff they sell, it's a tiny portion of the market,

01:04:19   but it's an important part of the market.

01:04:21   Apple has shown it's important by saying we're going to make a new Mac Pro.

01:04:23   I think this tiny part of the laptop market that's annoyed with the new MacBook Pros is

01:04:28   is also worth addressing, I think Apple will address them,

01:04:30   and so I think there will be a meeting

01:04:32   of the minds here eventually.

01:04:33   - Yeah, I think in some ways this instance of the unrest

01:04:38   is driven in part by things

01:04:41   that are actually good about Apple.

01:04:42   Like, I think it's good that Apple's saying,

01:04:45   "We're gonna do a totally different keyboard design,

01:04:47   "and we're gonna come up with something that's super thin

01:04:49   "but still has the appearance of responsiveness."

01:04:52   And, you know, it doesn't travel out of travel,

01:04:54   but we don't think regular people will notice

01:04:57   they'll like it because it still feels like you're doing something when you're typing,

01:05:01   even if we're fooling you a little bit because the travel isn't very much. Which is why I

01:05:05   kind of fell into this cornering idea because I think the difficulty is when Apple does

01:05:11   this thing, I mean, I think what stuck with a lot of MacBook Pro users is that they put

01:05:17   the MacBook keyboard, which was engineered for a super thin laptop, and they put it on

01:05:23   these other designs when arguably they didn't need to because they didn't really need to

01:05:28   eke out that small amount of space saved by having a super thin thing, which they totally

01:05:34   did on the MacBook. And I get that. That's the challenge here is like when I said I would

01:05:43   love Apple to do an iOS laptop, it's a similar sort of thing of like try some different stuff,

01:05:48   have a varied product line. The good thing about having a varied product line is that

01:05:51   people can kind of pick and choose. It's like what I talk about the Mac Mini. I really believe

01:05:56   the greatest feature of the Mac Mini is that it lets Apple do whatever the heck they want

01:05:59   with the iMac and potentially the Mac Pro and say, "Look, you got a problem? Just get

01:06:05   a Mac Mini and do whatever." It's there to do anything. And it doesn't do any particular

01:06:11   thing incredibly well, but it does everything because it's just a box.

01:06:15   So the slim keyboard thing, though, I think that is another disconnect between us and

01:06:21   Because when it was introduced on the little skinny MacBook,

01:06:24   the MacBook One, the 12 inch, I don't

01:06:28   think Apple presented the idea that this keyboard is

01:06:36   confined to this laptop.

01:06:37   Because when we saw it, it came from the idea

01:06:41   that the keyboard was off-putting.

01:06:42   This is different than we're used to.

01:06:44   And I've tried it, and actually I don't kind of prefer it

01:06:47   to the other one.

01:06:50   so we explained it to ourselves, it's because this is a super skinny computer

01:06:53   and they made a super skinny keyboard, right? So that we had said,

01:06:56   "Oh, makes sense. Keyboard that we don't like as much, but it's for the skinny

01:06:59   computer." Did Apple say? I think they told that as part of their story, that

01:07:03   along with butterfly switches and stainless steel

01:07:05   whatevers, I think they said, you know, this is all to get this thing to be

01:07:10   thin and light. Keep in mind also that all of us were like,

01:07:13   well, I mean, it was unclear, right? Because we were all like, "Oh, what

01:07:16   does this mean?" And when they did the magic keyboard,

01:07:19   which was after, everybody's like, "Oh, thank goodness, they have another keyboard design that they did,

01:07:24   so they're not going to stick this in all the laptops."

01:07:27   Because we didn't know when we were trying to be reassured, and of course that was wrong,

01:07:31   the Magic Keyboard has not been reused anywhere else, and in fact they did use that laptop design, the MacBook design,

01:07:38   although they did change it when they rolled it out and said, "It's better!"

01:07:42   So they obviously heard some of it, but yeah.

01:07:45   So I think the main reason-- we were looking for that

01:07:50   reassurance of the Magic Keyboard

01:07:51   and thinking that it was reassurance where it didn't

01:07:53   actually exist, because who knows those teams could be

01:07:55   totally separate from each other.

01:07:56   But the disconnect is over the second scenario

01:07:59   where Apple sees the future and wants

01:08:00   to bring us all along to it.

01:08:01   And the disconnect was that I think

01:08:04   Apple thought that that keyboard, yeah, it was slim,

01:08:07   and yeah, it's what you need to make the skinny laptop.

01:08:09   But actually, it's a great keyboard.

01:08:11   And why wouldn't you want it everywhere?

01:08:13   This is the best keyboard we've ever made.

01:08:15   And to give an example that people usually don't think about,

01:08:17   but it just goes to show when it works, we're all on board,

01:08:20   right?

01:08:21   If they come out with a new thing that seems weird at first,

01:08:24   but we all try it and we go, oh, you know what?

01:08:26   Apple was right.

01:08:27   This is better.

01:08:28   There's no fuss, right?

01:08:29   And the example is from-- more old people examples.

01:08:32   This is an old people show now.

01:08:33   Yes, it is.

01:08:34   Myke's gone.

01:08:34   Get rid of that whippersnapper.

01:08:38   Mouse balls.

01:08:39   Apple mice used to have balls in the bottom of them.

01:08:42   And that's how mice worked.

01:08:43   And eventually-- not that Apple was the first to do this--

01:08:45   but eventually, Apple said, no, the new mice

01:08:49   that we're going to make have this optical thing

01:08:51   on the bottom.

01:08:51   No more ball.

01:08:53   And maybe you're an Apple user and had never

01:08:56   used a logic mouse, an optical mouse.

01:08:58   And so this is the first mouse without a ball you're using.

01:08:59   You'll be using a mouse with a ball that

01:09:01   has a certain feel to it, a certain heft.

01:09:03   They behave in a certain way.

01:09:04   You know how to clean your little mouse rollers

01:09:06   and everything.

01:09:06   You're like, a mouse without a ball?

01:09:08   It's going to be terrible.

01:09:09   But then you get it, and you use it, and you're like, oh.

01:09:11   "Oh, this is better." And so when mice without balls sweep through the entire Mac product

01:09:16   line, nobody's up in arms, because we all basically agree, "Yeah, Apple's right. This

01:09:19   is better." Right? Like, the industry is right, that yes, this is the way to go. And to this

01:09:24   day, no one is like—

01:09:25   Go back to the track balls on laptops when they replaced them with track pads. It was

01:09:29   like, "Oh, yeah, this is better."

01:09:30   Yeah, this is weird.

01:09:31   It's weird, but it's totally the right call.

01:09:32   Yeah, and you try it, and you try it, and then so when all the balls disappear from

01:09:36   all of the mice and all of the laptops, nobody is up in arms and saying, "I can't believe

01:09:39   that Midas trackpad that they put on that one laptop, now it's on all of them, and I

01:09:44   feel cornered. You don't feel cornered if everybody likes it. And so I think disconnect

01:09:48   is that Apple really thinks that's a great keyboard, and a small vocal minority thinks

01:09:53   that it is not. And this is before we even addressed the reliability issue, which is

01:09:56   independent of people's opinion. Like, reliability is the thing that they have to deal with.

01:10:00   But just, you know, and because of the timelines and the sequencing, they're putting in the

01:10:05   rubber gaskets to make the 2017 thing feel a little bit different makes me think that

01:10:09   now they recognize that their high opinion of this keyboard is not shared by some part

01:10:16   of the market that they care about, some small portion of the market.

01:10:18   But because hardware takes so long, it's not like they can scramble and put the Magic Keyboard

01:10:22   in their next laptops like the 2017 laptops.

01:10:25   The best they could do was say, "What can we do in the timeframe for the 2017 laptops?

01:10:29   Well, we can put some rubbery things in there and it feels different and it's less noisy."

01:10:33   Good.

01:10:34   Go with that.

01:10:35   And so again, I think Apple is-- there

01:10:38   will be a meeting of the minds, that Apple is not vehemently

01:10:41   arguing that this keyboard is great

01:10:43   and you're just going to love it.

01:10:45   What they're saying is, we hear you,

01:10:46   but you're going to have to wait for us to address your concerns.

01:10:49   At least that's what I hope they're saying,

01:10:51   because that's how I explain the 2017 change.

01:10:53   Like, we hear you.

01:10:54   We would like to address your concerns.

01:10:55   But hardware is hardware, and it's not

01:10:56   as if we can snap our fingers and give you an entirely

01:10:59   new keyboard for laptops.

01:11:00   I'm not entirely convinced that Apple doesn't still

01:11:03   believe that it's a great keyboard. I'm not entirely convinced that people belly-aching

01:11:08   about it are not just written off as, you know, the nerds say that, but then we've got

01:11:12   our, I mentioned this in my Macworld piece, it's like, what's the customer sat? I know

01:11:17   the revenue figure and I know the average selling price, but what is the customer sat

01:11:20   and what are you seeing in your markets? And Apple does research. Apple knows what the

01:11:24   reception is here. And that's the question is like, are they seeing people say, I don't

01:11:28   really like the keyboard and they're like, oh, customer satisfaction on the keyboard

01:11:30   us down or what they saying is well the nerds don't like it but everybody else

01:11:35   likes it and then who are those nerds and are they a key part of our customer

01:11:39   segment that we are that we've made angry I my gut feeling is that they may

01:11:45   or may not feel that but the reliability issue makes me think they'll change it

01:11:51   because I can't conceive of people are like don't buy a Mac laptop because when

01:11:55   it's out of warranty it'll cost you hundreds of dollars if if a piece of

01:11:59   When one key goes bad, it probably will go bad.

01:12:02   And it probably will.

01:12:03   Like, that is really bad for long-term value of Apple laptops, which really hurts the sale

01:12:07   of Apple laptops and makes the brand perception worse.

01:12:10   It's bad in so many ways financially that my gut feeling is that that's going to change

01:12:15   the keyboard before any bellyaching by nerds about the key travel.

01:12:19   Well, but the reason I think the bellyaching is a factor is because even on the 12-inch,

01:12:24   when it first came out, one of the complaints, mostly from nerds who care about these details,

01:12:28   was that it was too loud.

01:12:29   One of the big changes to the 2017 revision was that they must have they heard that tiny but vocal

01:12:36   Minority of their customer is saying hey, this keyboard is kind of loud. How do they know that? Like you said they're surveying people saying

01:12:41   Well, how do you how are you satisfied with this new keyboard? What do you think of it?

01:12:44   Blah blah blah kind of loud must have come up a lot

01:12:46   And so the revised version is slightly less loud that is that shows that they care what the tiny

01:12:51   minority of people who have little picky complaints about the keyboard thinks

01:12:56   If that the tiny minority had said it's kind of loud and also the travel isn't deep enough there

01:13:01   I don't think there's anything they could do in the 2017 laptop time frame to help those people with the depth

01:13:06   They can put in gaskets for the sound, but there's nothing they can do to say

01:13:10   Well, look like the 2017 laptops hardware design was basically locked

01:13:13   Long ago and we can do a last-minute change to make them quieter

01:13:17   But we can't like we hear you we hear you that you don't like them on the pro laptops

01:13:22   but there's nothing we can do about it.

01:13:23   And so the fact that they did do something for a very picky minor complaint and only

01:13:27   made it slightly quieter, by the way—it's still kind of noisy, which I notice as I type

01:13:30   in mine in meetings, right?

01:13:31   It's only slightly quieter.

01:13:34   Makes me think that they do care about what that minority thinks, and it's just a question

01:13:38   of timelines, that we have to wait.

01:13:39   But like you said, ignoring all this, the reliability—which, again, we're just going

01:13:43   anecdotally—but the reliability alone means Apple has to do something about this keyboard.

01:13:48   the confluence of all these things, that the nerds who they appear to want to satisfy and

01:13:53   their complaints combined with the reliability and the cost of repair makes me think they

01:13:57   have to revise it. Now, we'll see, because if the next revision they come out with looks

01:14:01   and feels exactly the same but is like a thousand times more reliable, then we'll say, "Look,

01:14:06   they addressed the reliability issue, but they really didn't care about your complaints

01:14:09   about the keyboard depth," right? So we'll find out.

01:14:11   I actually think the noise was a feature, that they were like, "Oh, we just give people

01:14:17   more auditory feedback because as somebody who's bought some mechanical keyboards, the sound is

01:14:22   part of it. That's part of the keyboard experience and I think they were really planning on like,

01:14:29   "Well, there's no tactile response or very little tactile response in terms of movement,

01:14:34   but we're going to make the pop when you hit that switch and we're going to make it really,

01:14:40   you can feel it and we're going to make it really loud and people are going to feel like, "Yeah,

01:14:44   I'm typing on a keyboard and you know I think that was kind of their plan but I

01:14:50   don't yeah anyway I don't think whether I was another program I would say

01:14:55   they're gonna have pre-recorded audio clips of a buckling spring keyboard that

01:14:59   they will play in response to you're hitting the keys that'll be the the BMW

01:15:03   style fee yeah interesting idea I like that idea just you could have

01:15:06   customizable soundscapes so you could say what would you like your keyboard

01:15:08   clicky actually totally silent but all all the sound is artificial it's just

01:15:13   We've got some speakers underneath the keyboard that...

01:15:16   Yeah, they're almost there already.

01:15:18   And remember, this is the same company that ships their iOS devices with the key click on by default,

01:15:22   which, as we all know, is an abomination.

01:15:24   I agree.

01:15:25   All right, let's take one more break.

01:15:27   I want to thank our last sponsor for this episode.

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01:16:10   I was listening to a several weeks old episode of Reconcilable Differences,

01:16:15   your podcast with Marlin Mann on this very Relay FM podcast network,

01:16:19   and you were talking about Twitter a lot.

01:16:21   And I realized I wanted to talk to you about Twitter just because

01:16:26   you and I were both vocal supporters of the Kickstarter for Twitterific for Mac.

01:16:33   And when I first got the betas, I thought, well, this is different and new, and I don't

01:16:37   know if I'm going to use it, and we'll see how it goes, and we'll see how it progresses.

01:16:41   And I realized a few weeks ago that I've completely moved house, and I am using Twitterific for

01:16:45   Mac, which I had switched to the official Twitter client because the old Twitterific

01:16:50   had been so old that I finally was like, I can't do this anymore.

01:16:54   But now I'm all the way back, and I wanted to check in with you about how you feel about

01:17:00   the new Twitterific for Mac and how you're using it.

01:17:03   I'm loving it because I never left it on both platforms,

01:17:06   but they had diverged.

01:17:08   Like, the connection between the old Mac Twitterific

01:17:11   and the iOS one, you know, it stopped being a thing.

01:17:14   The iOS version continued to progress

01:17:16   and had all these great features and everything,

01:17:17   and the Mac version just did not have them.

01:17:19   Eventually, when they came out with the URL shortening thing,

01:17:22   where, like, the URLs didn't count as much

01:17:24   towards your tweet, the old Mac version

01:17:26   wouldn't even show them.

01:17:26   It would just link you off to the website

01:17:28   so you could see the rest of the tweet.

01:17:29   Yeah.

01:17:30   That was it.

01:17:31   That was it.

01:17:32   That was the killer.

01:17:33   Yeah, I kept using it even with that.

01:17:36   And this factors into how I'm using Mac Twitteriffic now.

01:17:39   The reason I was able to keep using the old, crusty version of Twitteriffic before they updated it

01:17:45   was because almost all of my Twitter reading had transitioned to iOS devices, phone or iPad.

01:17:52   It kind of fell into the same category as me as reading a long article, which I'll tend to do on my iPad,

01:17:57   instead of sitting in front of my Mac, because I'm sitting in a chair in front of a computer

01:18:01   or standing, if I have a standing desk at work, up at standing height, all day.

01:18:07   And I want that Steve Jobs layback experience.

01:18:10   The reason I had a little couch on the stage for an injury is the iPad.

01:18:13   And so that's sort of my mode, my posture for reading Twitter.

01:18:18   And that means that I was able to read Twitter on my Mac much less.

01:18:21   Now that I have a modern, capable, completely in sync with my iOS version

01:18:26   of Twitter on the Mac, I no longer have that limitation.

01:18:29   I still spend most of my time reading on iOS.

01:18:32   But when I'm on my Mac, it's so great just

01:18:34   to be right where I left off, to have all the features,

01:18:36   to have cool features that aren't even on the iOS one,

01:18:38   like the detection of polls and popping up on the poll web view

01:18:43   so I can now participate in all these tweets.

01:18:46   Reading Twitter on a third-party Twitter client

01:18:49   is a little bit different in that it's mostly entirely

01:18:51   better, but occasionally you get a tweet

01:18:53   where you have to surmise that there is a poll that

01:18:55   invisibly you're not seeing.

01:18:56   Yeah, I've gotten really good at that.

01:18:58   Sometimes it's not clear.

01:19:00   Sometimes they say, what do you like best, colon?

01:19:03   Like, if they use a colon, it's a pretty good indication,

01:19:05   because the tweet will just end there in the third party client.

01:19:07   But in the first party one, you would see the poll.

01:19:09   But other times, they say something vaguely cryptic

01:19:12   and then have a period.

01:19:13   And you're like, is there an invisible poll

01:19:14   that I'm not seeing?

01:19:15   Well, now the Mac version of Twitter, if it tells you,

01:19:17   oh, by the way, there's an invisible poll you're not seeing.

01:19:19   And if you want to participate in it, click here,

01:19:21   and open a web view, and blah, blah, blah.

01:19:22   Why does this have to happen?

01:19:23   Because Twitter, in their three years ago bad decision-making

01:19:27   decided that third-party Twitter clients are a bad idea

01:19:30   and did some bad things to them.

01:19:32   But we hang on.

01:19:33   At least I still do, because I like the unified timeline.

01:19:36   I like the lack of the algorithmic timeline,

01:19:39   trying to show me what it thinks I want to see.

01:19:42   I like the lack of ads and all the other things.

01:19:44   And so I am enjoying it.

01:19:46   I still read mostly on iOS devices,

01:19:48   but I love being on my Mac and not being limited,

01:19:51   like a full participant in Twitter,

01:19:54   even when I'm on my Mac.

01:19:56   I'd say I'm kind of 50/50 because I am sitting at my Mac all the time and writing.

01:20:01   And so I have it open here.

01:20:04   And then when I'm in the rest of the house, I'm on iOS looking at it.

01:20:07   So having that sync, which yes, everybody who uses tweet bot, we know that you already had that before, but I didn't use tweet bot.

01:20:12   I have it.

01:20:13   I don't use it.

01:20:13   Um, it's nice to get that unified feeling again.

01:20:17   Um, and you know, I have hope I built, I built, did you build a custom theme?

01:20:22   I thought about it cause I had a custom scene on the old, right.

01:20:24   But I didn't want the hassle of trying

01:20:28   to maintain the custom theme, especially during the betas.

01:20:30   Like, there were new betas all the time,

01:20:31   and things were changing.

01:20:32   I'm like, I'll just wait.

01:20:34   And I got so used to-- it's not the default.

01:20:36   I have some settings changed, but I don't have--

01:20:38   I'm not actually customizing it where

01:20:39   you go where you can pick the colors and the exact font

01:20:41   sizes, like with the custom theme editor.

01:20:42   I'm not doing that.

01:20:43   So I'm just using the regular person preferences

01:20:46   to make a dark window mode and adjust the font size

01:20:49   and make the small thumbnails.

01:20:50   But I haven't gone fully into a completely custom theme.

01:20:53   I am using one and it's nice. I enjoy it. It's actually funny listening to people like Marco talk about the OLED display on the iPhone X and how they want, you know, a perfectly black background and all that.

01:21:06   It's like, I like, that's what I like. I want a black background and I want, I don't want sort of like medium gray text. I want white or almost white text.

01:21:14   a lot of themes are just not contrasty enough for me, for my tastes. And so I built my own,

01:21:20   which is great. I'm hoping that maybe one day they'll sync themes across between iOS

01:21:25   and macOS. That would be really great if I could use my same theme everywhere. I love

01:21:29   that the my, you know, my mutes and things all all work. I was doing a lot of muting

01:21:34   on the service of people because that was the only reliable or semi reliable way of

01:21:41   muting somebody and now with using Twitterific everywhere I just I can

01:21:47   I can muffle and mute people on the client and that works just as well which

01:21:51   is again something that if you had a unified set of clients before you got to

01:21:55   experience but I didn't so I'm really happy about it. It's kind of amazing that

01:22:01   I remain spoiler free for The Force Awakens because at that time I was using

01:22:06   the Mac version of Twitterific and there was there was not muting or filtering

01:22:09   like the same way that my iOS one was, so the Mac was like a doubly dangerous place for me to be

01:22:14   because I could think, "Should I look at Twitter? Oh, it doesn't have all my mutes. It might be dangerous."

01:22:19   But I managed to make it through.

01:22:21   Yeah, one thing I heard you and Merlin talking about that I was a little surprised by is I use Twitter lists all the time.

01:22:28   Well, not all the time, but I have a couple of Twitter lists, and basically what it does is it allows me to section off a subject area that I'm interested in.

01:22:37   so like I've got a science list and I've got a sports list and that allows me to sort of,

01:22:42   I've got my main list which is mostly like tech people and some pop culture people I

01:22:48   follow, but it lets me put the sports stuff on the side. So like when sporting events

01:22:53   are going on I can look at the sports people and I can dip in and check on the sports people,

01:22:57   but there's enough of them that I wouldn't want them filling my entire timeline all the

01:23:00   time and so I just kind of put them on the side and I do that with the scientists and

01:23:05   science journalists, people too, and that's great. So I'm surprised that you don't use

01:23:11   lists because I love them.

01:23:14   Well, but I'm the unified timeline person. I have one list of things to scroll through

01:23:17   and that's it, and lists are a separate place for me to go.

01:23:19   And you're a completist too, or at least as much as possible a completist.

01:23:22   Yeah, I was better at it before, but yeah, mostly I'm a completionist. I want to see

01:23:27   all the tweets and I, you know, I, what do you call it, I trim my follow list to make

01:23:33   it so that I can get through all the tweets.

01:23:35   So that's my axis of control is not, "Oh, I'm going to skip my axis of control.

01:23:39   It's time to unfollow some people because I can't read through all these in the time

01:23:43   allotted for Twitter."

01:23:44   So I do that control.

01:23:45   But if I had a separate domain, like I've considered this for the one instance where

01:23:50   I actually use hashtags.

01:23:51   I tend not to use them because I feel like, "Look, if you're following me, you get all

01:23:55   of me," which is a separate thing that you've talked about in the past and that we're all

01:23:59   familiar with.

01:24:00   But I do throw out a hashtag #destiny on my tweets that are about destiny because they're

01:24:06   so obscure and make no sense if you're not into destiny.

01:24:09   And so I want to give the people, as a courtesy, give people a way to filter out that.

01:24:14   Not because I don't want to clutter up their timeline with it, but just because I don't

01:24:18   want to have to entertain the questions about like, "What are you saying?

01:24:21   What is that?

01:24:22   I don't understand."

01:24:23   It's like, yes, you don't.

01:24:24   It's a destiny thing.

01:24:25   Don't worry about it.

01:24:26   If I had a ton of people who I followed on Twitter who were like a destiny community

01:24:28   in the same way that you have a sports community. I might think of combining them into a list.

01:24:33   I do actually have some lists made of subject areas. I just never, ever look at them. So

01:24:38   once I've discovered that, "Look, I never look at these lists. It's not making them,"

01:24:42   and so I haven't made a list for Destiny, it's all kind of in the mix for me. And that

01:24:46   one hashtag is on the output side, the only thing I do to segregate Twitter in any way.

01:24:51   And who knows if the people following me, they probably don't have Destiny hashtag filters,

01:24:54   I tweet about with that hashtag like once every month and a half, so I feel like I'm

01:24:59   not overwhelming my audience with Destiny spam.

01:25:01   Yeah, but if you don't like it, you can mute that out and then it's gone. I do that occasionally

01:25:06   now and it's kind of nice to be like, "Oh, this is a—" Actually, for one of my sports

01:25:10   things, I've got a sports person I follow and half of what they do I'm not interested

01:25:14   in and they are a pretty good hashtag or mention person and I could put in a few mentions and

01:25:21   and then the stuff that I don't care about just doesn't show up. And it's great.

01:25:25   Yeah, and you don't need to use hashtags for that. Just pick any word.

01:25:29   I keep meaning to do this. I'm going to talk about it now, and maybe this will motivate me to actually do it.

01:25:35   I would love to put a mute on Lucy K-O-I-H or whatever. Am I saying the name wrong?

01:25:41   Do you know why I want to mute that? This name that I can't spell? Maybe that's why I never put the thing, because I can't remember the spelling.

01:25:47   because one person I follow does a running joke

01:25:49   about some judge that was mean to Apple

01:25:51   like five years ago.

01:25:52   Contra does that.

01:25:54   I never want to see those tweets.

01:25:55   That joke, it's played out, I get it.

01:25:57   The judge was mean to Apple, right?

01:25:59   You can't do that joke for five years.

01:26:01   So I should just mute it, right?

01:26:02   Judge Lucy Ko, K-O-H.

01:26:05   I should just put in my mutes, Lucy Ko,

01:26:07   and I just forget to do it.

01:26:09   - Yeah, that'd be good.

01:26:10   - So that's, you know, it doesn't need to be a hashtag.

01:26:12   You can put any words there.

01:26:13   And the odds of Lucy Ko coming up

01:26:15   in a legit non-contra joke context are very slim,

01:26:18   so I don't feel like I'd miss anything.

01:26:20   - One more thing before we go,

01:26:22   'cause we do not have time for Ask Upgrade,

01:26:24   but I did want to ask you one thing,

01:26:25   which is in the show notes as old men

01:26:29   talk about keyboard shortcuts, since you mentioned earlier

01:26:32   that this is just an all old people podcast right now.

01:26:35   Speaking of old people, Dr. Drang wrote a blog post

01:26:39   saying the right order for referring to modifier keys

01:26:43   keyboard shortcuts is, let me get this right, control option command and it's

01:26:51   actually control option space command. So if you had a keyboard shortcut that used

01:26:55   all of those things you would say press control option shift command N. So in

01:27:01   other words if you're taking a screenshot what you should write or say

01:27:04   is press shift command 3 to take a screenshot. And this is actually there is

01:27:11   an Apple style guide that you can get on iBooks. There's a TechNote. Generally, all of Apple's

01:27:16   publications do it in this order. And I was curious what you thought about this only because

01:27:23   I completely disagree and command always comes first for me.

01:27:27   Yeah, so this, just to give some context, another thing related to this subject that

01:27:34   comes up a lot in this conversation is the order of adjectives in English. Like that

01:27:39   there is an implied order that nobody thinks about, but if you hear it the other way, it

01:27:43   sounds strange. And I forget what the whole sequence is. You can Google for it and find

01:27:46   it. But the easiest example is if there is a bear and the bear happens to be the color

01:27:51   brown and the bear is also large, you would say you have a big brown bear. But if you

01:27:57   had a brown big bear, people might think that you are not a native English speaker because

01:28:01   you would not say a brown big bear. You'd say it's a big brown bear. Everybody says

01:28:04   a big brown bear. And that's just size and color. There's a whole bunch of other ones

01:28:07   that they come in a particular order, and we are sensitive to that order whether we

01:28:11   know it or not. Now, both of us being old fogies, I think, are sensitive to the order

01:28:15   of describing corded keyboard shortcuts with modifiers on the Mac, probably for basically

01:28:21   the same reason as the English modifiers. You hear them, and it just becomes sort of

01:28:25   a self-fulfilling prophecy as you're growing up and you hear everyone refer to it this

01:28:29   way, and you sort of—as even for new things like this where it's not like we're inventing

01:28:33   color and size, but like, "Oh, modifiers exist and computers exist, and let's just

01:28:36   all discuss them and somehow we sort of settle on a sequence of talking about them and we

01:28:42   do better than with GIF/GIF and we sort of all collectively agree. Command-Shift-3 is

01:28:47   how you take a screenshot. Everyone is going to say Command-Shift-3. And it only takes

01:28:51   a couple of decades of hearing Command-Shift-3 to think that Shift-Command-3 sounds just

01:28:56   as weird as Brown Big Bear. And I'm with you. Command-Shift-3 is how it goes. And in response

01:29:03   conversation, I'm thinking, how do I add the other ones in?

01:29:05   And this is where you start getting into more obscure things

01:29:08   because command fine, command shift fine is a lot of those

01:29:12   command option. Are you with me on that one? It's not option

01:29:15   command, it's command option. Right? Now we start throwing in

01:29:19   control, which used to not be a thing on Apple's products,

01:29:24   especially not in keyboard shortcuts, right? Start throwing

01:29:28   that in. I'm trying to think of, let's see, command Ctrl D.

01:29:32   That's how I would say that one.

01:29:33   Let's see, would I do command-control-option?

01:29:40   I think. I wouldn't do command-option-control.

01:29:42   I would do command-control-option.

01:29:43   Do you agree with me on that one?

01:29:45   I don't think so.

01:29:46   I think what I discovered is that my internal style guide

01:29:49   is the opposite of Apple's and goes out from the space bar.

01:29:53   So it would be command-option-control-shift.

01:29:57   See, once you get into the more obscure ones,

01:29:59   there's less societal sort of we've all agreed upon

01:30:01   how to talk about this. It's true. Because of old Fogy Mac users, there's less of that because there's less occasion to say these very, in fact,

01:30:07   the only reason we ever had these very large

01:30:09   sequences is usually if we're using like

01:30:11   quick keys for the old people or keyboard maestro for the new people. Like you're making up your own keyboard shortcut

01:30:15   that's not taken by anything else and so you were forced to use this very large coordinate thing. I think my sequence, my

01:30:21   sort of system for determining this once you get into the more obscure ones, is

01:30:25   the sequence in which I lay my fingers down. So I would hit command, control, and then option.

01:30:31   with my fingers. Command with my thumb, control with my ring finger, or with my...

01:30:36   yeah, with my ring finger. No, yeah, let me see. Anyway, it's... my fingers do it and

01:30:42   they do it in that sequence, which is why I would say, you know, command option shift,

01:30:47   because I would roll my finger that way, right? But command control option, I would do command

01:30:52   then control and I would locate option by being the finger in between the ones I had on command

01:30:56   and control. Anyway, I think it gets obscure after that, but if we can't even agree with the Apple

01:31:01   style guide on command. I'm totally with you that if you talk to an old Mac user, no one

01:31:05   is going to say shift command three. That will never leave the lips of an old school

01:31:11   Mac user. And how Apple has settled on that as their guide, probably because someone found

01:31:17   the regularity of it irresistible, that there was a system and then here's the order and

01:31:21   just we'll just always refer to it that way. But it flies in the face of decades of Mac

01:31:25   culture. And so, you know, I'm going to have to give a hard note of that one.

01:31:29   - Yeah, I agree.

01:31:30   I just discovered that mentally command is always first.

01:31:34   And there is, I think you're right,

01:31:36   there are some ones where I waver,

01:31:37   I'm like, "Oh, I don't know whether that's right or not."

01:31:40   And you're right, also like control wasn't on keyboards

01:31:42   for a while and wasn't used as a shortcut.

01:31:45   I looked around, people theorize that maybe the reason

01:31:49   that control was not a major part of Apple's platforms

01:31:52   was because on the Apple II,

01:31:54   the ASCII control characters were used for flow and stuff.

01:31:59   stuff like they are on Unix where you know it they didn't want to interrupt

01:32:03   those and of course the Apple key itself that is command or Apple or open Apple

01:32:09   there was an open and closed Apple key on the Apple 2e which was mapped to the

01:32:14   paddle buttons on the little paddle game paddles there's a whole history here

01:32:18   that starts to unravel when you do this and I'll also point out control alt delete

01:32:24   on Windows, Control comes first and then Alt, which is Option, because we all know about

01:32:30   Control Alt Delete, which is a totally different sequence, but the Mac and Windows have never

01:32:34   really gotten along when it comes to keyboard shortcuts anyway. Yeah, I think I brought this

01:32:38   up at other times we've discussed modifiers on Mac things, but one of the sort of great joys of

01:32:43   my life, one of the small great joys of my life and one of the smartest, probably accidental,

01:32:48   things that Apple ever did was to choose for the Mac platform to have to use command as

01:32:54   sort of the main modifier for its commands, like that's your go-to, and then if you have

01:32:58   to keep going to like shift an option and other stuff, and to leave control alone.

01:33:03   Because later, well even in the early days when you had a terminal on a Unix system,

01:33:08   but later when they actually based their operating system on Unix, it leaves control safely off

01:33:14   to the side for the Unix stuff.

01:33:16   So there's no conflict.

01:33:17   Like when you hit Ctrl+C to send the interrupt signal to stop a command, there's no ambiguity

01:33:22   that you're trying to copy text.

01:33:24   Windows chose to use control, and so any integration of Unix-style stuff into Windows is a constant

01:33:30   fight over the control key.

01:33:31   Now, yeah, the Mac does use the control key sometimes for some things, but it's like your

01:33:34   third or fourth choice.

01:33:36   It is not the primary control key.

01:33:38   And that sounds like a little thing, but you make that choice wrong, there's no escaping

01:33:42   it.

01:33:43   Shift-Insert and other ridiculous keyboard sequences, but only when you're in the terminal

01:33:48   program and other places you can do Ctrl-C. It is a huge quality of life issue for the

01:33:53   particular kind of nerd who does Uni-C things on their computer, on their Mac or PC. And

01:33:59   I'm thankful for it all the time. I'm thankful for it every time I have to do Ctrl-Insert

01:34:05   or Shift-Insert on some stupid Windows thing. I say, "Oh, just how can you live like this?"

01:34:10   God for command and that we left control alone because we knew that in 1997 Steve Jobs would

01:34:16   come back with a Unix-based operating system and everything would be great.

01:34:18   Yep, that was all part of the plan.

01:34:20   You said we can't escape it.

01:34:21   That was like a little keyboard joke.

01:34:26   Before we go, one more thing I wanted to mention is just there's a—I'll put a link in the

01:34:28   show notes—there is a folklore.org little bit by Andy Hertzfeld about why Apple went

01:34:36   from the Apple key to the command key because the Apple key was this was a

01:34:42   thing that was on the Lisa was on the Apple IIe and the answer is as you might

01:34:48   expect Steve Jobs burst into a building and declared that the Apple logo was in

01:34:53   too many places that it was ridiculous and that they were taking the Apple logo

01:34:57   in vain and then demanded that that key be given some other symbol at which

01:35:03   point Susan Kerr looked through her notes and found that, you know, interesting outdoor

01:35:09   place of interest symbol that's in various places in Scandinavia. And that's our little

01:35:16   propeller-y command symbol to this day. And then it was on there with the Apple for a

01:35:20   while and then because there were some keyboards, there was a key that could be connected to

01:35:24   computers that had the Apple key versus the command key. And then over time, it evolved

01:35:28   to just say command with the little propeller-y symbol.

01:35:31   And he was right.

01:35:32   I mean, he never really changed his mind about that.

01:35:34   That's why there was no Apple logo on the front of the iPhone, right?

01:35:37   You can use the Apple logo, but use it well.

01:35:41   Use it strategically.

01:35:42   Don't just say, oh, Apple logo's on everything.

01:35:44   Cover everything we make with Apple logos, because it devalues the logo.

01:35:48   On the Mac screen, it appears in one place, in one very important place, and that's it.

01:35:54   I'm actually kind of surprised that the iMacs have the Apple logo on the front of it, because

01:35:58   seems counter to what Steve Jobs might have wanted. But, you know, he was here when those

01:36:04   iMacs came out, so I guess I got past them. But yeah, you don't want your logo everywhere.

01:36:07   It devalues it, you got to use strategically. And that little, you know, place of interest

01:36:12   Swedish campground symbol, that's a great symbol. It is. It doesn't really, you know,

01:36:16   I don't know if it says command at all, other than the association that we make with it,

01:36:20   but boy, what a great symbol. I agree. I saw it once in Denmark or Sweden, somewhere. I saw it,

01:36:28   being used as the actual thing that it's supposed to be used for. I was like, Oh my God, there

01:36:31   it is. I took a picture of it. It was like, did you put a letter after it so it can make

01:36:36   a key sequence? Cause it's just a command by itself. That's nothing. You're right. That's

01:36:40   a good point. Well, John, thank you so much for being my guest on, um, on this Thanksgiving

01:36:46   week on upgrade while Myke is traveling. It's always nice to check in with you and talk

01:36:50   to you about what's going on and take a little steal a little of your time away from ATP.

01:36:54   It was a pleasure, Jason. I just have one more tech podcast to do today and then I'll

01:36:58   be done.

01:36:59   It'll be done. That's easy. It's easy, but that one's not going to come out for days,

01:37:02   maybe. I don't know. I don't know how you guys do it with the ATP. But thank you for

01:37:07   being here. Thank you to our sponsors, FreshBooks, Encapsula, and AppOptics. Thanks to everybody

01:37:12   out there for listening. Myke and #AskUpgrade will be back next week. But until then, say

01:37:19   goodbye, John Syracuse.

01:37:20   Goodbye, John Syracuse.

01:37:21   John Sarguso.

01:37:28   [Music]