147: Outside the Zone of Secrecy


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 147. Today's show is brought to you by

00:00:14   Encapsula, Smile, and Jamf Nail. My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by

00:00:20   Mr. Jason Snell. Hey Myke, how's it going? Good Mr. Jason Snell, how are you?

00:00:25   I am just fine. I'm keeping cool. Keeping cool, man.

00:00:29   We'll talk about why in a moment because Jason, we have our #SnailTalk question.

00:00:33   It comes from John this week.

00:00:35   That's right. Can't talk about the weather. Not enough time to talk about the weather, Myke.

00:00:37   There's never enough time.

00:00:38   John would like to know, "If Siri on your iPhone had to take the personality of a fictional character,

00:00:45   who or what would you like it to be?"

00:00:47   This is a tough one. I thought about many great butlers.

00:00:52   I thought about maybe Alfred from Batman.

00:00:54   Oh.

00:00:55   That might be a good one.

00:00:56   Oh, he could call you Master Snail.

00:00:58   That's right. It would be Master Jason. Master Jason.

00:01:02   Oh, yes.

00:01:03   Yes, Master Bruce. But I'm going to say Max Headroom. Why not? He's a digital personality

00:01:08   and I love him and he would be, that would be hilarious to have Max Headroom do my bidding

00:01:12   for me.

00:01:13   I, uh, John wasn't asking me, but if he was, I would maybe go with Jarvis. I am as

00:01:21   Jarvis. I just like the whole, the whole voice, you know. I can't remember, who's the

00:01:26   his name who plays Jarvis. He was a British actor who was in a Wimbledon movie.

00:01:30   Paul Bettany. Paul Bettany, that's it. Yeah, I think he's

00:01:33   got a good assistant voice. I like the Jarvis voice.

00:01:37   Alright. Do you ever think that Apple would do this

00:01:40   one day? Like that they may do voices? I don't think Google does it either. I feel like it's

00:01:44   unlikely considering now, these days, how much brand stock there is around these characters

00:01:51   that these companies create. It's just, I mean, I think the goal now is

00:01:54   to have the voice to sound as natural as possible and that requires somebody to record like

00:01:58   every possible breath and sound combination in the language that it's being used for

00:02:05   and that's really hard. I mean I know the GPS's have done it but the GPS vocabulary

00:02:09   required is a lot less and then they kind of punt when it comes. Like the Homer Simpson

00:02:13   voice in the GPS doesn't tell you the name of the street I think. It just says turn left

00:02:17   at this street right because it doesn't they can't do it. So I do think this is inevitable

00:02:21   though, that this will happen. Somebody will, this stuff will advance to the point where

00:02:26   they'll be able to take probably existing recordings of people's voices and do magical

00:02:31   things with them and chop them up and turn them into this, like to make any voice speak

00:02:36   any text. And then when that happens, then it'll be on all of these assistants too.

00:02:40   But I think we're a long way off from that.

00:02:41   So I, do you know what, I was thinking to myself that they, that Siri wasn't still a

00:02:45   human but I guess it has to be, right? Like I was wondering like, oh, have they created

00:02:49   some kind of technology now to just guess these things, but I guess it's a mismatch

00:02:55   of like somebody records a bunch of stuff and then a computer can sing it all together,

00:02:59   but there still needs to be the person at the beginning.

00:03:02   Yeah, I think so.

00:03:03   Because the new Siri voices, they sound like new people, right? They don't sound like

00:03:07   refreshed versions of the old voices.

00:03:10   Definitely.

00:03:11   So it's very interesting.

00:03:12   They're new people.

00:03:14   Some super weird follow-up today.

00:03:18   Chris Latner has left Tesla.

00:03:22   Now this is a big surprise, he kind of just announced on Twitter, turns out Tesla isn't

00:03:27   a good fit for me at all.

00:03:28   I'm interested to hear about other roles for a seasoned engineering leader.

00:03:32   There is also this funny thing to me in which Chris Latner is somehow trying to find work

00:03:37   on Twitter.

00:03:38   Like I feel like someone of his caliber could, I don't know, I figured that he just has people

00:03:43   he could call?

00:03:45   That was really weird to me, and not only this, he has a resume which is online?

00:03:52   Yeah, it's very old school.

00:03:54   All of this is, which is very strange to me, that again, Chris Latner would need to have

00:04:02   a resume?

00:04:03   Yeah, and that he details in his resume, he uses that as the way to detail what happened

00:04:10   at Tesla, which is also weird.

00:04:12   Yeah, well, okay, so it did.

00:04:14   and passive aggressive. No, it still has some of it there, but it's what an idea like you

00:04:18   work somewhere for less than six months and what you do is you update your resume to say,

00:04:21   "I worked here for less than six months. Here's everything we accomplished." And then the

00:04:25   part that got deleted is at the end.

00:04:27   Which was in the end, Elon and I agreed that he and I did not work well together and that

00:04:32   I should leave, so I did. That's what that was what his resume said for a little while,

00:04:37   but it's gone now, right? Like I think that was that because it circled around the internet

00:04:41   lot and he probably got a call from a lawyer and then had to take it down. This is so weird

00:04:48   to me. Like, you think about what it must take to get somebody like him to leave Apple

00:04:57   and then it's all undone again. And I understand that it can be difficult for some people to

00:05:03   work in some cultures or of course there can be interpersonal relationships that can be

00:05:08   tricky, but for it to break down in six months you'd figure that they might have at least

00:05:13   had an idea about this before they hired the guy. I assume him and Elon spoke.

00:05:19   Sometimes I think you can't… We talk a lot, I think as people who are dealing with

00:05:26   employment, there's a lot of discussion about how do you find somebody, how do you

00:05:30   interview somebody, how are you sure, if you're coming into an organization, what's the

00:05:36   corporate culture like. But I think the truth is that it's always a huge leap of faith.

00:05:42   That it's just like, "All right, let's give it a try. This sure sounds good." And

00:05:49   inevitably I think there are going to be things you discover that are terrible that you didn't

00:05:54   know because they didn't want to tell you. And you'll figure it out and you adapt and

00:06:00   you figure out like, "Okay, this is a place I can work." But some percentage of that

00:06:04   time it's going to not be. I do think that that's the truth. I think that all the due

00:06:08   diligence in the world won't change the fact that maybe when you are all the way in it

00:06:14   and you're working and the charismatic billionaire founder who still operates the company is

00:06:20   also there and it turns out that just when the rubber meets the road, to use a car metaphor,

00:06:28   it doesn't work. It doesn't work in that environment of doing the real work. And that

00:06:33   seems to be what happened here is that Chris Latner had his ideas about how it should work

00:06:39   and Elon Musk had his ideas about how it should work and in the end who wins that? It's

00:06:45   going to be the guy who owns the company.

00:06:47   Yeah, well obviously, I mean, they're not going to be like, "Chris, you're really

00:06:50   good. I'm off." And then Elon leaves because he thinks Chris Latner's were great. I get

00:06:57   it.

00:06:58   Well, the other way to do it is to say, "I hired you because you're really good and

00:07:01   we needed somebody to manage our software team for Autopilot. And even though it's

00:07:08   not the way I would do it, I'm satisfied that you have us on a good path here. And

00:07:14   so I'm going to let you do your job. But obviously Elon Musk feels like, and there

00:07:20   are lots of extenuating circumstances. Maybe it was a bad, maybe Latner was a bad fit for

00:07:23   the team. Maybe the things that Latner talks about being proud of doing at Tesla were things

00:07:29   that the people at Tesla were unhappy about. Maybe they, you know, the fixing of autopilot

00:07:35   did some things that frustrated the people who've been at Tesla a while. Or maybe they

00:07:40   were asked to provide more. Maybe the reason that it was so messed up to Latner's mind

00:07:46   when he came in was because they were always being pressured by people like Elon Musk to

00:07:52   to do more quickly, and Lattner was trying to fix the mess that that created. And I could

00:08:00   totally see that coming up with, clashing with Musk the next time he again asked for

00:08:06   something kind of impossible and impossibly quickly, and Lattner says, "No, we've got

00:08:10   to do it the right way." And I mean, I don't know, there are lots of different explanations

00:08:14   for what went on here. But when you've got that charismatic, opinionated, actively managing

00:08:20   a company owner of the company who is probably used to asking for the moon. I mean, we know,

00:08:26   we cover this on Lift Off all the time that Musk is a guy who has this horrible habit.

00:08:32   He's a very impressive person and I really appreciate what he's done with Tesla and

00:08:36   SpaceX. But despite that, I will say he has this problem with over promising and under

00:08:42   delivering. He hypes his stuff. He says it's happening too soon and then it's never the

00:08:48   case. The real time frame is never what he says it's going to be.

00:08:51   And this is publicly, right? Like he tweets this stuff.

00:08:54   Yes. Yeah, we're going to go to Mars in 18 months. We're going to ship the Tesla

00:08:58   Model 3 in a year and a half. We're going to… and they're invariably late because

00:09:03   he's over-promised. And it's not like they aren't doing it and that they have

00:09:07   been very successful, but he talks a lot. And I would imagine that can be corrosive

00:09:12   on the people who work for him because he's probably, those unrealistic schedules are

00:09:18   probably, they're being pushed about why they don't meet them or worse I think in some

00:09:24   ways they're being pushed to meet schedules that everybody knows aren't realistic. So

00:09:28   they're doing all this work to try to get something done that is not actually going

00:09:31   to be done by the time that everybody's acting like it's going to be done. So I mean that's,

00:09:36   I never really thought about it this way but because I've been thinking of like Tesla

00:09:40   and Elon and SpaceX and Elon Musk's pronouncements from the outside but from

00:09:45   the inside I don't know that that could potentially be a really bad thing for

00:09:49   the people who work for him I don't know. Well whatever it is there is an

00:09:53   incredibly talented software engineer out in the world now roaming the

00:09:57   wilderness and as much as we've made fun like the guy is incredible and I

00:10:03   don't expect that you listen to this show Chris Lattner but if you do good

00:10:07   luck to you. I'm sure that you'll land literally wherever you want to because you can. Wherever

00:10:14   you want to go, man, just go there. Also, as somebody who made the decision to leave

00:10:19   Apple where he was probably quite comfortable, my guess, maybe there was something going

00:10:25   on there, but my guess is that it was probably more that he thought that he wanted another

00:10:29   challenge and he wanted to do something new. If that's the case, and then he goes to Tesla

00:10:35   and there's six months and then he's out of there. I do wonder if maybe he would be better off taking

00:10:41   a year, do some more woodworking, because I know that's his hobby, and think about what he really

00:10:51   wants his next thing to be rather than jumping into something else. Because this is two major

00:10:56   career moments in a very short time for him. My armchair advice would probably be don't rush into

00:11:04   to anything else if you don't have to, and I kind of assume he doesn't have to. And

00:11:10   maybe sit back and recharge a little bit because he obviously went straight from Apple into

00:11:15   Tesla.

00:11:16   And, you know, we know he likes to do podcasts, so in the intervening time, Chris, if you'd

00:11:20   like to start a show, just send me an email, mike@relay.fm. We can help with that. Jason,

00:11:28   you're recording on an iPad today in a way?

00:11:34   You know, in fact, my iPad is not involved at all right at the moment, although it probably

00:11:38   will be before all is said and done.

00:11:40   See, I'm in Arizona, visiting my mom, picking up my daughter from her summer camp.

00:11:45   Hotest place in the world is my understanding.

00:11:48   It's been about 115 degrees Fahrenheit every day.

00:11:51   Gets down to...

00:11:54   The low temperatures in the morning here are hotter than it has been at home the entire

00:11:58   time since I've been here.

00:12:01   So yeah, it's the face of the sun, basically.

00:12:04   on the face of the sun. So I came down here and I didn't want to bring a laptop, I just

00:12:09   wanted to bring my iPad. And so I have a bunch of different methods of trying to record podcasts

00:12:14   and edit podcasts using my iPad. For this one, what I did was I brought my little Zoom

00:12:20   recorder down. So I'm recording this microphone on the Zoom recorder. You're hearing me through

00:12:27   on Skype as we talk through my headset microphone, which is attached, we're talking over my iPhone

00:12:32   actually on Skype and I had a setup that didn't work because I think I have an

00:12:39   unshielded charging adapter that was making horrible noise that wasn't there

00:12:44   when I tested with regular power adapters at home. I was gonna route try

00:12:48   to route my my microphone back to you over Skype so you would hear the same

00:12:53   microphone that I'm using for the episode just to make it sound better for

00:12:57   you but that didn't work because of the the power shielding problems so I'm

00:13:00   still toying with this. The dream, of course, is to record my end, have you hear my good

00:13:06   microphone, and for me to be able to get that recording all happening simultaneously. And

00:13:12   I haven't quite gotten there yet, but it's in the ballpark.

00:13:16   We were hoping today that we'd come to the show with a solution, you know, for the round

00:13:21   trip iOS thing, but what happened instead is Jason got on the phone and it sounded like

00:13:26   there were, I don't know, like just tons of tiny animals screaming at us.

00:13:30   Little electrical monsters. Yeah. Yeah. It was bad. The, um, yeah, yeah, the unshielded,

00:13:36   uh, so I, the work proceeds. I have another, I, what I didn't do is I brought, because

00:13:41   I recorded another podcast while I was down here and, um, I wanted to bring two of my,

00:13:46   um, matched and better microphones down, but the other thing I could have done is brought

00:13:51   the Audio-Technica microphone down and that's the one that would let me plug in, I'd plug

00:13:56   it into my iPhone or my iPad via USB and also record on the Zoom recorder because it also

00:14:01   has an analog, an XLR connector. And in hindsight, that's probably what I should have done. And

00:14:06   if I wasn't recording that other podcast while I was down here, I would probably have done

00:14:10   that. It's just bringing the Audio-Technica down. That was the original idea. But I decided

00:14:13   to get a little more ambitious and that didn't work. So we were reverting back to actually

00:14:19   we recorded one episode of Upgrade, I think, in this exact setup that I'm doing now. And

00:14:24   it worked fine. It sounded fine.

00:14:27   The work marches on, Jason. You're leading the way.

00:14:30   Yes. The dream continues. It's still unfulfilled. One day, Myke. One day.

00:14:36   Today's show is brought to you in part by Jamf Now. You can manage your Apple devices

00:14:40   from anywhere with Jamf Now. When you first start your business, it's pretty easy to

00:14:45   keep track of your own computer and your own phone, right? You know where they are. They're

00:14:49   with you all the time. But as you start to grow and you start to buy more technology

00:14:53   for people that are working with you and for you, it gets harder to keep track of everybody's

00:14:58   Macs, iPhones and iPads. Then, I have to figure out how to secure that iPad so that your sales

00:15:06   rep can be fine when they're out on the road and the one they maybe just lost a week ago

00:15:11   doesn't end up with data everywhere. That is stuff you don't want to have to think about.

00:15:16   But that stuff can be super tricky. Unless you use Jamf Now. Because Jamf Now makes all

00:15:20   of this and a whole lot more so much easier. You'll be able to configure settings, protect

00:15:26   sensitive information, even lock or wipe a device from absolutely anywhere. Jamf Now secures all

00:15:32   your stuff so you can focus on your business and what your business is doing instead of having to

00:15:37   do a ton of IT support. You don't need any IT expertise at all to be able to use Jamf Now.

00:15:43   It's super easy and super intuitive. You can find out more and create your free account today

00:15:48   at jamf.com/upgrade that's jamf.com/upgrade once again that's jamf.com/upgrade and because you

00:15:57   listen to this show you'll be able to start securing your business immediately by registering

00:16:02   your first three devices for free and you can add more for just two dollars a month per device

00:16:07   super affordable super easy and look with three free devices for free why don't you go check it

00:16:11   out right now at jamf.com/upgrade go and create your free account today thank you so much to jamf

00:16:16   now for their support of this show. So the outline, somewhat ironically, published a

00:16:24   big piece this week detailing a presentation about Apple's security practices. So there

00:16:32   was this big presentation that Apple put on and it looks like they are doing this for

00:16:38   many employees. I assume that this is like a multi-day thing where they're bringing people

00:16:42   in and everybody I expect is supposed to see this presentation. It's titled "Stopping

00:16:47   Leakers, Keeping Confidential at Apple." The presentation was conducted by three members

00:16:52   of Apple's global security team. Can we just take a second to focus on the really

00:17:00   weird, like really weird, I think somewhat uncomfortable irony of this?

00:17:06   You have a leak leaking leaks about leaks basically leaks of leaks telling you not to leak it leaked

00:17:13   I I was thinking like put myself in the mind of the person who did this I that that's exactly what I think somebody did was say

00:17:20   Probably that they were kind of offended that they're asked to go through this secrecy

00:17:24   Thing and yeah, like, you know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna show them

00:17:29   I'm not gonna leak any real secrets

00:17:32   but I'm going to leak their secrecy presentation because I remember that from times as a manager

00:17:38   and before I was a manager that we would have company things that were mandated and people

00:17:42   would be like really cynical and unhappy and why are they making us do this and I get that.

00:17:49   I know that attitude. I recognize that attitude. I can imagine somebody like that doing this.

00:17:55   Absolutely. So they, in fact, it may be a little protest I would imagine by somebody

00:18:00   who says, who's thinking that Apple employees need to not be treated like suspects by their

00:18:05   own company.

00:18:07   We'll come back to that point a little later on. But can you imagine being one of the people

00:18:13   giving this presentation to see it detailed on the web? Can you imagine? Like the fury

00:18:18   that you would have at that point? I don't even know if it could be measured.

00:18:23   It sounds like they actually recorded it. That they, like, there's an audio recording

00:18:27   that they had of the whole presentation.

00:18:29   Which is…

00:18:30   Like a bootleg.

00:18:31   Even more bizarre.

00:18:34   Also the goal of the person that does this, like the person that leaks this, you are really

00:18:40   playing with fire at this point.

00:18:43   This may actually, you know, from the people that are making the decisions, this may get

00:18:49   you in more trouble than if you leaked an iPhone part.

00:18:53   This is so far into the rabbit hole of stuff that Apple does not like to get out in the

00:18:58   world.

00:18:59   This is an act of employee defiance, I would say. As opposed to, like, leaking info is

00:19:07   not an act of employee defiance, I would say. I think it's usually an act of, talking about

00:19:13   people who are sort of like Apple employees in Cupertino, not talking about people who

00:19:17   are factory workers in the supply chain. But in Cooper Tino, I think leaking, we talked

00:19:24   about like, what are the motivators for leaking stuff? And I think sometimes it is an act

00:19:30   of rebellion against a decision you feel that was made in error. And you want to get a furor

00:19:37   of you know, I can't believe they're removing the headphone jack. Let's get it out there.

00:19:41   There'll be a protest and they'll ignore it. And then a lot of times I think it's just

00:19:46   an active ego where it's just like you know the secrets and other people don't and it

00:19:49   makes you feel really good to be a tipster, to be a leaker and know, you know, knowing

00:19:56   isn't enough for those people. They want to share it with the world like the act of knowing

00:20:01   a secret is fun but the act of sharing a secret with someone else makes you feel special.

00:20:08   So I think those are very different motivations than this which is an act of defiance. This

00:20:12   This just reads to me as an employee who is saying, "You're going to treat us like potential

00:20:18   criminals, basically."

00:20:22   And they're offended by that, and so I'm going to show you.

00:20:25   How do you like it?

00:20:27   And that's what's going on here, I think.

00:20:28   Yeah, they talk about it in the article that apparently in the presentation, it is discussed

00:20:34   that Apple is well aware that the majority of leaking doesn't come from a malicious place

00:20:40   when it comes from Cupertino.

00:20:41   It's like people that are excited about the thing that they're working on in a lot of

00:20:45   cases and want to share it, and that's where problems can start to pop up.

00:20:50   Yeah, I suppose that is true.

00:20:54   I'm not entirely sure that the leaks in Cupertino are happening.

00:20:58   I think the people who are truly excited about what they're working on and want to share

00:21:02   it with people they know because they're super excited, I would imagine that the corporate

00:21:06   culture has done a pretty decent job of having them realize you don't do that, right?

00:21:11   But maybe some of it is that.

00:21:13   There is a statistic that came out in this thing, which I really struggle to believe,

00:21:17   but I do because why would they say it in this internal meeting, that as of last year

00:21:23   there are now more breaches that come from inside Apple's campus than there are that

00:21:27   come from the supply chain.

00:21:29   I can't get my head around this.

00:21:31   Yeah, I kind of don't believe it, but...

00:21:35   Why would they lie about it?

00:21:36   It just seems like a weird thing to say, you know?

00:21:40   They're not saying it publicly.

00:21:41   It's something to scare employees about, and it depends on how you count, right? I

00:21:45   mean, they may be counting instances that are multiple instances by the same person.

00:21:54   Who knows? Or maybe they're right. It doesn't seem right to me, but maybe they're right.

00:21:57   It certainly is a number that serves their purpose in scaring their employees. Because

00:22:02   here's the thing. This sort of presentation serves two purposes, right? On one level,

00:22:07   a corporate reminder of secrecy is our value, is part of our corporate values. We want to

00:22:13   keep these things secret until they're released. They've restated the thing that I've heard

00:22:16   other people say, which is, you know, it makes your co-workers sad when you steal their thunder.

00:22:23   So they're trying to get, it's the appeal to your friends and colleagues at the company.

00:22:30   So that's fine. I get it, like, trying to remind everybody what the ground rules are

00:22:35   and why we keep things secret at Apple and all of that, I get it. But the other part

00:22:40   of this presentation is fear, right? The other part of this presentation is to take your

00:22:45   employees and say, "We're watching you and you will get fired if you release information."

00:22:51   And that's just a fact, that's part of what is going on here and I can see why people

00:22:58   would take umbrage at that. Again, I feel like ultimately the motivation for people

00:23:03   the leak is because they have something that no other people, you know, nobody else knows

00:23:08   and they just, they gotta let it out because it's just too good. But I am really skeptical

00:23:15   about how many of these rumors are coming from somebody telling a friend a hint of what

00:23:19   they're working on versus somebody, you know, basically emailing a reporter and saying,

00:23:24   "I have a leak for you," because they wanna know, you know, they wanna see that story

00:23:28   and know that they were the source of the leak.

00:23:30   Yeah, either or. I mean, it's still information getting out that I don't want to get out because

00:23:34   I imagine that like, you know, a lot of these conversations, they go to reporters, right?

00:23:40   Like they might not necessarily be someone writing a cold leak, but like two people in

00:23:45   a bar, one of them's in the press, one of them works for Apple, they're having a chat

00:23:48   and then, you know, information. So like I was thinking, right, like what we consider

00:23:52   leaks and how they're classified because I am very aware that there are lots of people

00:23:58   in the media that get tips that don't report them as such but will speak about the thing

00:24:03   that they're aware of. And I wonder if Apple is aware, like they listen, they hear these

00:24:07   things, they read these things, and they're like, "The only way you know that is someone

00:24:12   told you." Right? And where it's maybe not being reported as a, "Here is something from

00:24:17   Ming-Chi Kuo who spoke to the supply chain." But like, they're still aware that there's

00:24:22   like this stuff is getting out there, even if it's being reported differently. That was

00:24:26   something that I was wondering about when trying to think, how are they coming to this

00:24:29   conclusion that there is more stuff coming from inside of Apple.

00:24:33   But some of the specifics around this, and how things have changed over time, are really

00:24:38   interesting.

00:24:39   So the presentation spoke about Apple hiring investigators all over the world who are tasked

00:24:44   with preventing information from reaching competitors, counterfeiters, and of course

00:24:47   the press.

00:24:49   They hunt down leaks if and when they do appear to stop them, and a number of these investigators

00:24:54   have previously worked at agencies like the NSA, the FBI, and the Secret Service, which

00:25:00   is pretty intense.

00:25:05   So they've all got the dark jackets and dark suits and sunglasses, right?

00:25:10   I think they've got to.

00:25:12   Right?

00:25:13   I mean, what else would they dress like?

00:25:16   Like they've all got earpieces.

00:25:17   Apple security.

00:25:18   Yeah, Apple security.

00:25:19   That's how it works.

00:25:20   One interesting tidbit that came out, which I think might have been part of the reason

00:25:23   why this whole double down on secrecy in this team was set up is they tell a story about

00:25:29   how enclosures of phones leak. So like from the supply chain, these like the physical

00:25:35   bodies of the devices and they get out into the world, right? So people can buy them and

00:25:41   so that they're like coming out of the factory, they've been stolen from the factories. And

00:25:44   Before the iPhone 5C was announced in 2013,

00:25:49   Apple had to purchase back 19,000 of these enclosures

00:25:54   that had gotten out of the factory

00:25:56   to stop the world from getting them.

00:25:59   And then between announce and the phone being released,

00:26:02   they bought another 11,000 of them.

00:26:04   So this is like to keep these away from the web effectively.

00:26:10   So they don't want the pictures getting out.

00:26:12   So these things are being stolen,

00:26:14   being smuggled like it talks about some of the ways that people try and get them out

00:26:17   of the factories, but Apple buys them back if they find them. And then Tim Cook did this

00:26:25   double down on secrecy thing. So in 2016, only four enclosures were stolen out of 65

00:26:32   million devices being produced. That is a significant difference.

00:26:38   It's clear that Apple has gone to its partners in the supply chain and has instituted a whole

00:26:43   bunch of policies in terms of searching and having security on site, searching employees,

00:26:49   having security on site.

00:26:52   And that's, yeah, it seems, and it seems to be working at least to a certain degree.

00:26:58   It's hard to do this because there are so many different places where the parts are

00:27:03   feeding through in Apple's supply chain that it can be a challenge to do this.

00:27:08   But they, you know, they, they spend a lot of money on the factories.

00:27:12   can spend a little bit more money on more security.

00:27:16   And so that's an interesting, interesting to see that that's something that's going

00:27:20   on here is trying to plug the leaks in the supply chain.

00:27:26   And I mean, to be clear, this is something that a lot of the leaks in the supply chain,

00:27:32   my understanding is have a couple of sources.

00:27:36   And one of them is there are people who are running their businesses and Apple is not

00:27:40   their only client, and there is some horse trading of information that goes on among

00:27:44   suppliers. That's one way information gets out. The other is that you've got people

00:27:49   who are oftentimes quite poorly paid, poorly compensated for their work, and they get offered

00:27:57   a shocking amount of money, given what their wages are, to spear it away apart from an

00:28:03   Apple product line. It's very hard for those people to say no. There are a few ways that

00:28:08   Apple can approach that, right? Apple can approach that by fixing, you know, the, the

00:28:14   however method they're using to spirit away the, the, the case. They could also make it

00:28:20   maybe a little less worth it by paying them better. And hopefully they're doing both of

00:28:26   those things.

00:28:27   Yeah, apparently there have been stories of people being offered somewhere between three

00:28:32   to twelve months of their salary in exchange for getting a part of the factory.

00:28:37   Yep.

00:28:38   But the thing is these these workers are paid about three hundred and fifty dollars a month like what is the equivalent now? I

00:28:45   Don't know if that's good or bad. It sounds bad to me. I assume it's not amazing but like in perspective

00:28:53   I don't know. I

00:28:54   Look, I haven't been able to do enough research honestly to know how competitive Apple are now

00:29:00   I assume that they're better than they used to be or better than most people or maybe we'd hear about it more

00:29:05   Maybe it's just one of these things that now nobody talks about

00:29:08   But it doesn't seem like a lot of money

00:29:10   Really, but again, I don't know what that what that would get you

00:29:14   In these places in China, but you can see why if you're offered a year's worth of salary

00:29:21   To sneak a piece of metal out of a building how enticing that would be

00:29:26   But now Apple is screening like the TSA. I think it said that like in their factories

00:29:32   They're screening more people than the TSA does like on the whole on the whole

00:29:36   because, and I don't know, there's something about all of this which is a little uncomfortable,

00:29:46   I think, in places. Like, one that this presentation is existing and then two when you start thinking

00:29:54   about what happens in the supply chain, it feels uncomfortable to me and I don't really

00:30:01   know how I feel about it. Like is all this worth this? I don't know. Like I know that

00:30:07   the, like it's all so heavy, right? Like I understand the surprise and delight thing

00:30:14   and I know that because of the way that Apple is secretive it's what gives me a newer job,

00:30:20   right? Like the way that they protect their products builds intrigue and makes it interesting

00:30:26   for people to listen to. So like I obviously, you know, I appreciate it from that perspective

00:30:31   but I see things like this and I'm like, "Wow, it's a lot of effort." But if that's what

00:30:37   makes you the biggest company in the world, you know, of course this is what you focus

00:30:42   on. But at the same time, it's like, "Boy, I really hope you're doing this ethically

00:30:47   and correctly and right for the people that are being impacted."

00:30:50   Yeah, it's, um, I don't know, it's one of those things where it's hard to imagine Apple

00:30:57   just saying, "Oh, whatever." Like, every corporation has secrets and things that it

00:31:02   wants to maintain internally, and they have sometimes good reasons for that, sometimes

00:31:07   not as good reasons. It's hard to imagine Apple giving up on secrecy and just letting

00:31:12   everybody like…

00:31:13   Let it fly.

00:31:14   You know, a company wants to be able to tell its story, and I understand that, but you

00:31:22   do end up in these uncomfortable situations where you've got employees who expect a level

00:31:30   of trust and yet you've also got evidence that some employees cannot be trusted.

00:31:35   And so what do you do?

00:31:37   And it's a difficult situation at that point because if you're somebody who would never

00:31:41   leak and you are forced to sit through a security thing, right, I could understand the righteous

00:31:46   indignation of like, why am I being treated as a potential leaker here, even though there's

00:31:53   evidence that some of your colleagues are absolutely leakers, which is why I think it's

00:31:58   interesting more from an Apple standpoint than from an external standpoint. Because

00:32:03   as a journalist, I kind of don't really care about the argument that we don't want to,

00:32:13   please don't report this fact about Apple because it would make some people sad, right?

00:32:18   It's like, well, that's too bad. But internally, the argument that it makes, what you're doing

00:32:25   is you're running down your co-workers' efforts and all their hard work by leaking. And that's

00:32:34   what you should feel bad about. That's where your guilt should come from, is that it's

00:32:39   not because this company is this big, rich company and you're letting down the company

00:32:42   in the company is important above all. It's you're letting down your friends who work

00:32:47   here by leaking the stuff that we're working on. And I could see how that could be effective

00:32:52   as guilt, but yeah, it's kind of icky too because it makes everybody feel like they're

00:33:02   being surveilled and like they're being treated as a suspect even if they're innocent.

00:33:10   It says apparently that these investigations that are carried out inside of Cupertino to

00:33:16   weed out the people that are linking to the press can take up to three years to complete.

00:33:23   And they mentioned recently two cases that they've stopped. One person who worked in

00:33:27   Apple's online store and another person in iTunes and that they are gone.

00:33:34   I've heard that there have been a couple, maybe it's these two, I don't know, but I've

00:33:39   heard through the grapevine that there have been some… A lot of times when somebody

00:33:45   gets let go for cause, there's a code of silence. They just disappear and nobody talks

00:33:53   about it. Maybe behind the scenes they talk about it, but officially the company doesn't

00:33:59   talk about it. The company is just like, "They're gone. We're not going to talk about it."

00:34:03   And the employees can all talk, but the company is not going to say anything about it. These

00:34:08   things that I've heard through the grapevine are that Apple did a couple of kind of high-profile

00:34:11   terminations where they wanted everybody to know that this person was being fired because,

00:34:19   you know, they wanted people to see the consequences of being found out as being a leaker, I think

00:34:26   is the implication there.

00:34:28   Effectively being put in the stocks inside of the garden, right? Like, you know, everyone

00:34:34   gets to come and throw tomatoes at the guy.

00:34:37   made an example of like you know security people come to your desk and walk you out

00:34:41   and you're never seen again and the word gets around and that you know that is maybe effective

00:34:47   but again it gets back to at that point you're just trying to strike fear into people.

00:34:50   That when I worked in the bank that's how people were fired. If you were being fired

00:34:55   because you were up to no good your manager and a manager from another branch would come

00:35:00   in to the office and they would do it in front of people. They would come into the office

00:35:04   they would stand in the room that you're in there make you shut down and they would walk

00:35:07   you out of the building for this exact reason. That's why it was the policy, because you're

00:35:12   supposed to discourage people stealing money, so when you would fire someone, you would

00:35:17   embarrass them. So it was a way to show everybody else, "Please do not do this, because you

00:35:23   don't want to be that person."

00:35:25   And the downside there is that you're creating potentially an environment that is full of

00:35:30   fear and do you want a paranoid, fearful environment? Is that the best work environment? At the

00:35:35   same time you also don't want people stealing money from the bank. Right? So, that's the

00:35:42   challenge. I've also heard through the grapevine that some of the leaked sources may have been

00:35:50   a little less intentional. I've heard that there is some shared information. We talk

00:35:57   about these message boards and things like that that Tim Cook posts to and their mailing

00:36:01   lists internally at Apple and things like that. I have heard too that there are some

00:36:05   places where more sensitive information used to get discussed and the discussion groups

00:36:13   were wider maybe than they needed to be. And that's almost like an IT issue where people

00:36:21   who didn't really need to know got to see it and then those people who weren't really

00:36:26   directly involved were like, "Oh, did you know that this is going on?" And that some

00:36:30   of the sources of the leaks may have been indirect and solved by closing down or dramatically

00:36:39   reducing the amount of data that is shared in email or message boards or whatever internally,

00:36:48   if at all. So it sounds like that that's been some of the doubling down on secrecy

00:36:52   has been sort of compartmentalizing a little more at Apple and doing a little less kind

00:36:57   of easygoing, kind of oversharing of what's going on. So I don't know. It's a tough problem,

00:37:04   right? Because there's so many different paths that information can take. And you know, companies

00:37:09   would like, you know, believe me, I've experienced this, I'm sure you experienced this, companies

00:37:14   would like to control all information that their employees receive about what's going

00:37:19   on at the company. But the fact is, employees are full of people and they talk. The employees

00:37:25   are people, they talk, businesses are full of them, and companies can't control it.

00:37:31   So even though they want to, they can't.

00:37:33   Even if you institute red zones, which are hallways and public areas, as is described

00:37:38   at Cupertino, do not talk in the red zones.

00:37:41   Yes, do not speak.

00:37:42   But yeah, this was just, I encourage people, there's way more than we're going to get

00:37:46   to today in this piece. There's just all these really interesting tidbits that are

00:37:49   inside of here that I recommend people go and read this article. It's really well

00:37:53   it

00:38:07   show notes if you want to go and check it out for yourself.

00:38:11   Today's show is also brought to you by Encapsula, the multifunction content delivery network

00:38:15   that boosts the performance of your website, protects it from denial of service attacks

00:38:19   and secures it from bad guys whilst ensuring high availability.

00:38:23   Websites of all sizes can be focused to be attacked. It happens every day. It is a thing

00:38:29   that is prevalent on the internet. Criminals use giant botnets to scrape website content.

00:38:34   They might try and break into databases or even try and bring down sites with denial

00:38:38   of service attacks.

00:38:40   If this type of stuff happens to you, you want to have an infrastructure there that

00:38:43   can handle it and Encapsula, boy they got it.

00:38:47   Their network holds 3 terabits per second of on demand scrubbing capacity which can

00:38:51   process 30 billion attacks per second.

00:38:54   Whether you know what this is or not it doesn't matter, just understand that Encapsula can

00:38:58   take care of it.

00:38:59   And they've done this for some of the largest website attacks on record.

00:39:02   they have made sure that things run.

00:39:05   People coming to your website wouldn't even know

00:39:07   that something was happening

00:39:08   because of Encapsular's powerful CDN

00:39:10   that's delivering your cost,

00:39:12   your customers the content that they want quickly.

00:39:14   And if anything bad is happening,

00:39:15   you can see it happening just on the Encapsular dashboard.

00:39:19   You can adjust security policies on the fly

00:39:22   and you can stay in control of your website.

00:39:24   As a listener of this show,

00:39:25   you can get one whole month of service for free.

00:39:28   Just go to Encapsular.com/upgrade.

00:39:30   That's I-N-C-A-P-S-U-L-A dot com slash upgrade.

00:39:34   You can find out more about their service

00:39:36   and claim your free month.

00:39:37   Thank you so much to Encapsula for their support

00:39:39   of this show and Relay FM.

00:39:41   So this week, later on this week,

00:39:46   marks the 10th anniversary of the official release

00:39:51   of the iPhone in North America.

00:39:55   So, you know, earlier on this year,

00:39:57   we were talking about the 10th anniversary of the debut and now we are at the 10th anniversary

00:40:04   of people actually getting them in their hands. And there have been a couple of interesting

00:40:09   stories popping up over the last couple of weeks and there are two notably that I want

00:40:15   to talk about today. One is an event that was held at the Computer History Museum in

00:40:20   California. I really wished that this would have lined up with when we were all in San

00:40:26   as a but hey ho and another is a Wall Street Journal kind of mini documentary. One of the

00:40:31   reasons I find both of these so interesting is they usher in the return of an old friend,

00:40:38   Scott Forstall. He's back baby. How interesting to see him appear.

00:40:44   He's back. He's back and somebody pointed out he's back in the same shirt he wore

00:40:48   on stage a few years ago.

00:40:50   But actually in the presentation, the Computer History Museum, the presenter remarks on the

00:40:56   fact that he wore it at WWDC in 2012 and forst all gives the jobs line of like, "If I find

00:41:03   something I like, I buy ten of them."

00:41:05   Amazing.

00:41:06   So, I recommend that people go and consume both of these things.

00:41:12   is a video on Facebook of the Computer History Museum talk and there is a video on the Wall

00:41:21   Street Journal that they did, right, so you can go and check those out. But I wanted to

00:41:28   talk about Scott Forstall a little bit because I'm assuming his NDA is up now because we

00:41:34   haven't heard from him since he left Apple, was it five or six years ago, something like

00:41:39   that with the maps thing. He's not said a word and he popped up a little while ago when

00:41:46   he was becoming a Broadway producer funding Broadway shows and he talks about that which

00:41:51   is actually really nice. The opening segment for him with the Computer History Museum piece

00:41:57   is really interesting. He's kind of just talking about his life telling some stories about

00:42:00   him as a person. And it seems that he's really found a passion of his with these Broadway

00:42:06   shows, but we haven't heard anything from him in regards to technology at all. But here

00:42:13   he is.

00:42:14   It's five years. I wonder if he had a five-year thing or if he just decided he would stay

00:42:19   silent and not talk. And this is a good opportunity with the iPhone anniversary. He's obviously

00:42:25   a main – one of the main participants who's left, like him and Tony Fidell. And there

00:42:31   are some, but there are a lot of them who are still involved and still at Apple and

00:42:35   can't really talk about it. So I do wonder, because it has been five years since, or coming

00:42:41   up five, it's not quite five yet, I think it's five years in September when he left.

00:42:47   But I guess it's safe to assume that if there was a clause which he couldn't speak, you

00:42:53   would assume that's up, right? The guy's not gonna--

00:42:55   Well, he's talking about what they were doing at Apple, right? So yeah, and I don't know

00:42:59   whether there's a "don't talk about it" kind of thing that was in his deal or not.

00:43:07   Sometimes what you end up with is a "don't talk about the trade secrets." Sometimes

00:43:11   you end up with a "don't disparage the company for some period of time." There are

00:43:15   different deals, right? Maybe so, but he's talking now. I wouldn't put it past him

00:43:20   that he just didn't feel like talking. He didn't talk for a while and then everybody

00:43:27   like, "Oh, Forrestal's not talking." And then when his contract was up, like, nobody asked

00:43:31   him. And he was like, "All right." But yeah, he's saying stuff now. And I would say, one

00:43:37   of the things that struck me about his participation at the Computer History Museum is that he

00:43:42   was given some opportunities to throw bombs at Apple and didn't.

00:43:48   He does not appear in any way to be bitter.

00:43:52   Well, or if he is, he's not gonna, like, yeah, it certainly comes across that he's

00:43:59   kind of like moved on with his life and doesn't, you know, he's not there to be catty and

00:44:04   angry and that's good.

00:44:09   I get the sense that Tony Fidell is a lot more bitter than Scott Forestall is.

00:44:14   Yeah, it, 'cause you know, there's a couple of instances where the presenter who really

00:44:20   sounded to me like John Gruber and it was like freaking me out every now and then and

00:44:24   I remember that it wasn't him. John Markoff is the presenter.

00:44:28   John Markoff, yeah, he was the writer at the New York Times, tech writer for many, many

00:44:31   years.

00:44:32   So he had some excellent questions and like, you know, some of them like, you know, he's

00:44:36   asking I think really valid questions like, you know, when you look at the phone now,

00:44:39   do you see anything in there that annoys you? And he's like, of course, I'm a designer.

00:44:43   Everybody does this. He says like, and I like that he said that there were things that I

00:44:46   was using when I was there that I wasn't happy with that I had done. Like this is

00:44:51   just the mark, this is just like the what happens in a designer's mind. So stuff

00:44:55   like that that we're talking about where like he has a really easy shot to be

00:44:58   like I hate this non-skemothic design right because they bring that up as well

00:45:02   but he doesn't he's like this is just the way that things are. There wasn't

00:45:06   like and I wasn't expecting this like a ton of scoops in this right like whoa

00:45:10   things we never knew before but there are like little details and stories that

00:45:15   haven't been told that he can tell.

00:45:18   You know, like one of them, I didn't know this,

00:45:19   the original multi-touch demo was a table-sized display

00:45:23   that was used as a projector to control a Mac.

00:45:27   That was the original technology.

00:45:29   That's what it was doing.

00:45:30   And this was what they were trying to turn into a tablet

00:45:33   and then the story that everybody knows

00:45:34   then the tablet project was turned into the phone.

00:45:37   - Yeah.

00:45:38   - Even the idea that this whole multi-touch thing

00:45:40   and the tablet project began

00:45:42   because Steve hated a guy at Microsoft,

00:45:44   Which is hilarious. He had a personal vendetta against this person that was a mutual friend

00:45:51   who was working on some tablet project on Microsoft and he was like, "No, I hate this

00:45:56   guy. We're going to do one." And I love that as a reason to create, to start the

00:46:02   wheels in motion, to create probably the most successful and influential computer product

00:46:07   of all time, the iPhone, came from a personal vendetta that Steve had with a guy who kept

00:46:13   Which is amazing.

00:46:15   I really recommend that people watch or listen or however you want to consume this thing

00:46:20   because there's great stories in here.

00:46:22   There's a story where he talks about the first demo that they gave to Singular, AT&T, and

00:46:27   just the story of Steve and Scott going and doing this.

00:46:32   And it did strike me at this point that there were books, right, and there are folklore

00:46:40   stories about all of these products but not a lot of them include Forstor and if I was

00:46:47   him I would want some of these out in the world so that when people think about the

00:46:54   iPhone they remember how incredibly influential he was to the project and that now it's the

00:47:01   tenth anniversary maybe it's time to share some of those details and something that I

00:47:07   I found striking between both the Computer History Museum talk and the Wall Street Journal

00:47:13   documentary. He's talking about the same stories in both of these. So like, if you've watched

00:47:19   one, you will have heard in the other one where he talks about something else, but it's

00:47:22   the same thing. Like he talks about the same types of things. And I wonder if, you know,

00:47:27   I mean, I don't know, I don't know the guy, I don't know how he feels about this, but

00:47:31   he deserves to have his place in history when it comes to talking about the iPhone. But

00:47:36   there hasn't been a lot of him in those stories, like these folklore stories.

00:47:41   Yeah, it's funny, I was thinking about this, because we have lots of stories about the

00:47:50   original Mac, we have some stories about the iPod. There is an amount of time that has

00:47:55   to pass where the act of creation of these influential products goes from being a trade

00:48:01   secret to being history and not worth—not relevant in terms of the current state of

00:48:07   the art, but incredibly relevant in terms of the cultural and historical value. And

00:48:16   the challenge is that—I mean, this is actually a perfect connection to our previous topic—that

00:48:22   you've got a company where secrecy is everything. Everything is siloed, everything is kept secret.

00:48:28   And that's, we could say that's fine for building that product. But what does it mean in terms

00:48:35   of our understanding of how that product came to be built? You have to end up relying on

00:48:40   the stories told by the people who were there years after they left, because that's the

00:48:45   only way to do it. It's unlikely that Apple is going to, you know, retain and declassify

00:48:53   all of the emails and whatever else, right? That's not going to happen. It's going to

00:48:57   up being personal recollections that are going to be how the iPhone, which is an incredibly

00:49:02   influential product in the history of technology, and maybe even in the history of the world,

00:49:08   how it came to be. And this is, what's interesting about this is this is kind of the start of

00:49:14   it. There have been some stories in the past, but like, it will take some time. And the

00:49:21   stories are going to get way more interesting when it's Phil Schiller talking about his

00:49:25   time at Apple when he leaves Apple if he ever just decides to do that right to

00:49:29   leave and to talk about it when Tim Cook is reflective in his retirement about it

00:49:36   like Johnny's memoir right Johnny's memoir it's gonna be it's gonna be the

00:49:41   most beautiful book ever published no one will be able to afford it but it

00:49:45   will be really great information no it would be on the highest quality paper

00:49:49   and it will be yes indeed. So all of that will change our opinions but we're in the early days

00:49:57   of it now. I think it's great that there is a Computer History Museum. I think this is important

00:50:01   but it is this funny case of having to start lifting the veil on stuff that was secret only

00:50:07   by sort of waiting for people to pass outside of the zone of secrecy and then be able to talk about

00:50:14   it. So it's fun to hear these stories. The nice thing about the early versions of these

00:50:20   histories is that the time is so recent, it's only 10 years, that it feels a little bit

00:50:27   like a little bit more current. And even if there's a better, clearer picture done 10 years

00:50:35   from now or 15 years from now, it won't seem as immediate then. It'll seem like ancient history.

00:50:41   I wrote a 20th anniversary of the Mac story and a 25th anniversary of the Mac story.

00:50:47   And those, you know, it was ancient history by then.

00:50:52   And this is 10 years of the iPhone.

00:50:53   It doesn't feel like ancient history.

00:50:55   It feels almost like yesterday.

00:50:58   It's been really interesting to hear from Scott.

00:51:00   I miss him now when I hear him.

00:51:03   Like he was such a great storyteller and he really would, he's still continuing to talk

00:51:08   about the product with such passion.

00:51:11   Would you say he's a blowaway storyteller, Myke?

00:51:13   - He was blowaway.

00:51:15   You know what I think is funny, like hearing from him now,

00:51:18   like just how things change over time.

00:51:21   Like I think that there has been a vilification

00:51:24   of Scott Forstall in a lot of ways since he left Apple,

00:51:27   you know, because Maps was such a debacle

00:51:30   and then people got tired of the design

00:51:32   that he was spearheading and it's like

00:51:34   it all got pinned on him as if like if he never left,

00:51:37   we would still have felt on our iPhones,

00:51:39   which I don't think is true.

00:51:41   But like there was this whole,

00:51:43   all this stuff was pinned to Falstool

00:51:45   and 'cause he could never defend himself,

00:51:47   it kind of stayed that way.

00:51:49   And it's when I hear him now again talking and presenting,

00:51:54   I'm reminded about how great he was

00:51:57   in the world that we saw him in, right?

00:52:00   Like again, I don't know what he was like behind the scenes,

00:52:03   I have no idea.

00:52:04   But it's interesting to see him again

00:52:07   back in the role that I know him

00:52:10   and remember how much I liked him when he was on stage.

00:52:15   Like the affection that we have for Federighi now,

00:52:19   we had for Forstahl then.

00:52:20   - I don't know if that's entirely true.

00:52:22   I think Federighi is much more of a folk hero to nerds.

00:52:26   - In a different way. - Because he is a giant nerd.

00:52:28   - In a different way. - And Forstahl,

00:52:29   but Forstahl was the embodiment of iOS for a long time.

00:52:34   And he fulfilled that role and you're right,

00:52:40   there is a simplification that happens because he left the company and there were major changes and

00:52:46   he became a representative of those changes and yeah, he absolutely became a character in the

00:52:54   story. I was thinking he's a little bit like a character who got written out of a TV show

00:52:58   and then he returns for the reunion episode and you're like, "Oh yeah!

00:53:02   I love that guy! I remember him!" Yeah, exactly right.

00:53:07   So the Wall Street Journal brought together three former Apple vice presidents or executives.

00:53:12   So they brought Scott Fossel, Tony Fidell and Greg Christie together to create a 10-minute

00:53:16   video documentary on how the iPhone was born. And again, we've heard some of these stuff,

00:53:21   you know, in different ways before. And it is really weird to me now to imagine

00:53:26   how much time Apple clearly put into trying to create an actual telephone

00:53:33   by using the interface of the iPod.

00:53:35   Like, this started off as, we want to create

00:53:38   something that makes calls. Like, that was

00:53:41   the project.

00:53:42   Yeah, it was an iPod phone. iPod phone is what the original idea was.

00:53:45   It's what if we took--the iPod is gonna get cannibalized by phones

00:53:48   because there are all these phones that are adding MP3 player

00:53:51   features. So what if we make the--use our--use--leverage

00:53:54   our power in this market because everybody loves their iPod

00:53:57   to make an iPod phone. That was absolutely the original

00:54:00   conception here.

00:54:01   And it's mind-boggling to think of today that that might have been what it was gonna be, right?

00:54:07   It's the faster horse thing, right? I mean, it's literally, it is, that is the thing, is what if we just take an iPod and evolve it a little bit so it can make calls?

00:54:13   And the funny thing is, what worked so great for the iPod, which is the click wheel interface that every iPod had,

00:54:19   was actually one of the things that prevented the existence of an iPod phone, because you ended up with like an old dial phone or something,

00:54:28   You couldn't pick numbers and stuff with the iPod interface.

00:54:32   It was really bad.

00:54:33   You would have to sync with a contact list, but how do you dial a number that is not in

00:54:37   your contact list with this?

00:54:39   You're spinning around and picking numbers, and how do you send a text message?

00:54:43   It's like you're spinning around to pick text.

00:54:44   It was really bad.

00:54:46   Everything that was good about the iPod failed you when you needed to be this.

00:54:51   That seems to be where they ran aground.

00:54:52   Even Tony Fidel said, it was very clear to them, that there was no way that interface

00:54:57   was actually going to be usable on a phone.

00:54:59   So, but that's where they started from.

00:55:01   And then there came this other path,

00:55:03   which was what if we use the underpinnings of OS X?

00:55:06   What if instead of building up from the iPod,

00:55:07   we build out from the Mac or down from the Mac

00:55:11   to make a device?

00:55:13   And that was the answer.

00:55:15   And that was that moment of revelation

00:55:19   where they went and made a product

00:55:22   that was for the future instead of a slight life extension

00:55:25   on the iPod.

00:55:27   There was a point apparently in the creation of the software in which Steve Jobs, who was

00:55:35   unhappy with how the project was progressing, gave Forstor and Christy an ultimatum to either

00:55:39   have something good to show to him in two weeks or it goes to another team.

00:55:43   Now I don't know, I can only assume this is hyperbole, but Forstor said that it led to

00:55:50   the team putting in 168 hours a week for two weeks.

00:55:55   That's 24 hours a day.

00:55:57   It's all the hours, yeah.

00:55:58   That can't be possible, right?

00:56:02   I think what that means is that basically everybody was said every waking hour has to

00:56:09   be here, and probably people slept and showered maybe at Apple, or they went home and slept

00:56:18   and showered and then came right back, and they were probably always people there all

00:56:22   the time.

00:56:23   did say that Christie was getting hotel rooms for people across the street so they could

00:56:29   just go backwards and forwards. So yeah, I assume that what it meant was they weren't

00:56:33   working for 168 hours a week, but for those 168 hours when they were awake, they were.

00:56:40   Every waking hour, yeah, I think so, for two weeks. Which, you know, on a big important

00:56:46   project, a burst like that is not unreasonable. I think the problem that I've got with a lot

00:56:52   of the Silicon Valley culture is when you're expected to spend all of your personal time

00:56:56   at your job all the time forever, but this is one of those kind of legendary moments

00:57:01   of everybody put it in high gear for two weeks and this is all they did and this is what

00:57:05   they got was, you know, what they had to show Steve Jobs in two weeks.

00:57:09   And then again another story I like from this is that in late 2006, the end is in sight

00:57:14   for iPhone OS, but the keyboard apparently was terrible. Like, you would give up trying

00:57:21   to write an email on it, Falstool says. So he froze development on every other part of

00:57:27   the OS and everybody was focused on building a better keyboard, like he gave a time out

00:57:31   of a week or whatever, and then people would come in and present their keyboards, and then

00:57:35   one engineer created the predictive keyboard. The idea that the keys, the actual, like the

00:57:41   touch targets for the keys, are changing as we're typing but you don't see it, it visually

00:57:46   stays the same, but using algorithms and predictive technology, the key areas change. So it's

00:57:53   predicting what letters you want to type next, and as long as you hit somewhere near them,

00:57:58   it's like, "Oh yeah, we know what you want." And then somebody created that and they were

00:58:01   able to ship with that. I found that really, really interesting. And I love the idea of

00:58:07   him being like, "Nope, everyone stop what you're doing. This thing is terrible."

00:58:11   Well, they were terrified of it. That was the, um, they made this decision to go with

00:58:17   the all-touchscreen interface and the keyboard became this kind of terrifying thing. Because

00:58:21   if you think back to then, like, their competitors all had physical keyboards. Like, BlackBerry

00:58:25   was the king. They ruled with their physical keyboard. The Palm Trio had a physical keyboard,

00:58:31   little chiclet buttons. So they were making this opinionated product, which is great.

00:58:36   It's like, nope, we want to use that screen space. We don't want to put a keyboard down

00:58:39   there. But then, how do you get text input to not be terrible? And that was really scary.

00:58:45   And I do remember when they rolled it out that that was one of the things that they

00:58:48   were very proud of in talking to the press was that the keyboard actually is making guesses

00:58:57   about what letters you're going to be pressing, even retroactively, I believe, where it'll

00:59:03   see what word you're spelling, and it's a misspelled word, and it looks back to where

00:59:07   you hit that letter and goes, "Oh, you probably met this other letter, which is a word," and

00:59:11   then that's how autocorrect will behave, or at least I think it still behaves that way.

00:59:16   And that's just very clever stuff, and that was a good breakthrough for them, because

00:59:20   if that keyboard was unusable, that would be the end of the product. Like, the jig would

00:59:25   be up. And although we can still debate software keyboards and how easy they are to use and

00:59:30   how frustrating it can be, they were good enough to push the phone market over the edge

00:59:37   and it will never come back.

00:59:41   And then to tie these two topics together, like to relate it back to the secrecy thing,

00:59:46   they were talking about, so Greg Christie, who was in the team, they were creating the

00:59:52   iPhone OS, right? Him and Falstor were talking about the fact, and Fidel actually, the three

00:59:57   of them, because they're kind of across the whole project, are talking about the fact

01:00:00   that the hardware and software teams did not see what the Apple team was working on, and

01:00:05   said that while this was tricky, it worked because nobody knew what the iPhone was going

01:00:11   to look like before it shipped.

01:00:13   And so they knew at the time this was going to be a difficult thing to try and do, right?

01:00:18   Like this was tricky, this was hard, you have to make the thing with having very little

01:00:21   information about what the other team's working on, but it meant that they were able to keep

01:00:26   it super locked down and it didn't get out.

01:00:27   Yeah, it's true.

01:00:28   And in the end, they knew that the screen was going to be this size and multi-touch

01:00:34   and that they were having these buttons.

01:00:35   That's all they needed, right?

01:00:37   - Clearly, right?

01:00:39   Like, wherever it would have been better or worse

01:00:41   or whatever, if they would have known,

01:00:43   what we know is we had a fantastic product, right?

01:00:45   Like, they were able clearly to find a way

01:00:47   to make that work for them.

01:00:49   But yeah, I mean, this 10 years of the iPhone thing,

01:00:51   it's kind of wild for me because this is the first one

01:00:56   of the big Apple products that, you know,

01:00:58   I was around for and interested in when it was created.

01:01:02   You know, like this is my history now.

01:01:05   You know, like the Mac was a thing before me

01:01:08   and before I was interested in these types of things.

01:01:13   But the iPhone, you know, I remember,

01:01:15   I have vivid memories of watching the first keynote.

01:01:18   Like I remember where I was.

01:01:19   I remember what was going on when I saw it

01:01:21   because it was such a groundbreaking moment for me.

01:01:24   And, you know, I know I watched that video like 10 times

01:01:26   and like all of that stuff.

01:01:29   This is my history now.

01:01:30   And that's, it's really exciting.

01:01:33   - I remember where I was too, Myke.

01:01:35   - Don't do it, Jason.

01:01:36   I don't want to talk to you about this.

01:01:38   (laughing)

01:01:40   - No, I was at Mac World Expo watching Steve Jobs

01:01:43   and Vail the iPhone, that's where I was.

01:01:45   - I'm sure you were.

01:01:46   - But no, it is something to have a milestone

01:01:50   that you actually remember.

01:01:51   That totally changes it.

01:01:53   That's part of growing up and getting older

01:01:55   is that you start, everybody tells you about history

01:01:57   history things, history was things that happened before you were alive or that you didn't pay

01:02:02   attention to, right? And then all of a sudden something is kind of historic and you're like,

01:02:07   "Oh yeah, I actually was there for that and remember it." And then that's like a really

01:02:11   different experience and that's where you are. In fact, when did the prompt do its episode

01:02:18   about the iPhone keynote?

01:02:22   I assume it was five years ago, but I can find it.

01:02:28   Were you guys doing the prompt five years ago?

01:02:30   I think we were, yeah.

01:02:32   Wow.

01:02:33   How about that?

01:02:34   Yeah, I know, right?

01:02:35   Yeah.

01:02:36   We started the prompt in 2013, so not five years ago, but yeah, many years.

01:02:41   So it was probably like the seventh anniversary or the eighth.

01:02:43   Seventh anniversary maybe three years ago, four years ago, something like that.

01:02:46   And that's a good episode, by the way.

01:02:48   People could listen to that.

01:02:49   9th, 2014, so it was three years ago.

01:02:53   Imagine an episode of The Incomparable, except instead of talking about a movie or a TV show,

01:02:57   talk about a keynote. That's what that episode of The Prompt is. It's great. It's a lot

01:03:00   of fun. Yeah, it's a... I've been... Because this is the product release, right, because

01:03:07   there was six months between announcement and release, I've been thinking back to my

01:03:13   original review of this, which is still online at Macworld.

01:03:16   And it's, uh, the funny thing about it was that I had to review it at camp.

01:03:24   Cause we were going to a summer camp up in the mountains, um, with my family.

01:03:28   And so, uh, we literally like got the iPhone and then the next day I went to

01:03:34   the camp and so I actually wrote the article in a tent and had to drive about

01:03:40   half an hour down the mountainside to get signal so that I could email it to the office

01:03:49   to post.

01:03:50   It got four out of five.

01:03:52   It got four mice.

01:03:54   Four mice, yeah.

01:03:55   It had some issues, but it was pretty great for a first attempt.

01:03:58   It was, well, you know, thinking back to it now, it was the thing that I thought most

01:04:03   notable about that product was that it was really good at everything it tried to do.

01:04:08   And this is a, it's gone on to be kind of a hallmark of Apple at points.

01:04:15   And I think when we criticize Apple, sometimes this is the thing that we criticize about

01:04:18   Apple is there are two ways to make a product.

01:04:22   Okay, there are not.

01:04:23   It's a spectrum.

01:04:24   But one end is, it doesn't do everything, but everything it does, it does well.

01:04:28   And at the other end is, what doesn't it do?

01:04:31   None of them are pretty good, right?

01:04:33   They're all just kind of mediocre, but it does lots of things.

01:04:36   And in my mind, the quintessential Apple product is a product that does a limited number of

01:04:41   things very well.

01:04:43   It's a targeted, very specific thing.

01:04:45   And with the development of the iPhone, there was obviously an incredible amount of discipline

01:04:50   for them to say, "If we can't do it well, we're just not going to try.

01:04:55   We'll polish the hell out of the things that are good and everything else, we're just going

01:04:59   to punt."

01:05:00   And say, "Nope, we don't do that."

01:05:02   text or MMS like photos via text message

01:05:06   nope we're just not going to do that it's just not their third-party apps but

01:05:11   how about the web but the web is good use the web we're not going to do that

01:05:14   and so that's what the iPhone is it does what it the original iPhone does what it

01:05:19   does and that's all it does and it was very good at that so that was my that's

01:05:24   my take on it but it was funny to use a a a phone that like I had to drive not

01:05:31   not just to turn in the story, I had to drive to use the phone because there was no service

01:05:35   at the camp. So I had to make calls and stuff like, "Hey, I'm on the iPhone." And the other

01:05:39   thing is where did that iPhone come from? There were those long lines and there was

01:05:43   no review program for iPhone beyond your Walt Mossberg, David Pogue kind of contingent of

01:05:50   highest level friends of Steve Jobs, basically, people Steve Jobs trusted. And so we had to

01:05:58   get people to wait in line. So we had a bunch of people waiting in lines, iPhone lines,

01:06:02   to buy iPhones so I would have one to review. And that's my other story here. I hope that

01:06:08   he tells it at some point this week. But Brian X Chen, tech reporter for the New York Times,

01:06:14   was one of our junior editors then, and I believe we had him wait in an iPhone line

01:06:18   all day. And he wrote stories about the iPhone line, we did coverage about the iPhone lines,

01:06:25   ultimately he brought back an iPhone, which I then took and reviewed.

01:06:30   Thanks, Brian.

01:06:32   Thanks, Brian. And yes, I should have told that story without the name. And that writer

01:06:36   grew up to be Brian Chen of the New York Times. But yeah, those were—it's funny. Ten years

01:06:43   ago now, it's kind of hard to believe. But it was a big deal. Everybody was really curious

01:06:47   about it. I mean, that's the other thing I remember is having it at camp. So I had

01:06:50   it around all these people, just random, regular UC Berkeley graduates, basically people, just

01:06:58   parents and their kids and stuff. And everybody, like that six months had built the hype so

01:07:04   much. Everybody wanted to see it and see what it was like, because it was unlike anything

01:07:08   they'd ever experienced. A lot of those people had Blackberries and things like that, or

01:07:12   they just had little candy bar phones. And then they saw this thing with a bright color

01:07:15   screen and it was not written by any stretch of the imagination, but still way higher resolution

01:07:20   than a computer screen in terms of the pixel density looked great and that multi-touch

01:07:26   interface is like nothing that almost anybody had ever seen before because we'd all been

01:07:30   using like little capacitive touch things with a stylus and so it was it did it blew

01:07:36   people away I remember that.

01:07:37   Pinch to zoom wasn't a thing right like all of this stuff was new.

01:07:42   Yeah.

01:07:43   So happy birthday iPhone.

01:07:45   Yeah happy birthday 10.

01:07:48   10.

01:07:49   This episode of Upgrade is also brought to you by PDFPen from Smile.

01:07:53   PDFPen equips you with everything you need for powerful PDF editing.

01:07:59   And now the new PDFPen 9 is available and is the ultimate tool for editing PDFs on your

01:08:06   Mac.

01:08:07   You can upgrade today to go totally paperless and enjoy over 100 enhancements to improve

01:08:11   your PDF editing workflow.

01:08:14   For example accessing annotations and content of those in the sidebar.

01:08:18   You can also copy this annotation content as text.

01:08:23   You can now add notes, comments and cloud annotations to your PDF documents.

01:08:27   You can even fill out and sign interactive PDF forms.

01:08:30   You can find and highlight every instance of a word, along with being able to remove

01:08:37   OCR text layers, create links to other PDF files and with PDF Pen Pro 9 you can add table

01:08:44   of contents editing or even OCR for Chinese, Japanese and Korean, which I'm sure if you

01:08:49   need it is incredibly useful. I use PDF/Pen all the time for documents and contracts and

01:08:56   for redacting stuff. It is super useful. It is one of the applications that I probably

01:09:02   use the most to get my work done on all of my devices, from my iPhone to my iPad to my

01:09:07   Mac. I probably use it on my iPad the most, but when I'm sitting down at the Mac, there's

01:09:11   is

01:09:30   Jason, it is time for #AskUpgrade. Rajeev would like to know, what are the chances that

01:09:39   there will be a new Apple TV with 4K released this year? Rajeev would love to have Amazon

01:09:45   Video and Netflix 4K content available on his Apple TV. Jason, do you think we're going

01:09:49   to see this?

01:09:51   Yeah, I would probably put, would I put money on it? I don't know. I think it's a better

01:09:57   than 50% chance. I think the challenge is not doing it, but technically in the box,

01:10:05   but what the content is. There's limited 4K content available via Netflix and Amazon,

01:10:12   but if you're Apple, you want to have 4K content on iTunes when you roll this out. Is that

01:10:18   available? Is there enough? If I look at Amazon's catalog and Netflix's catalog, there's not

01:10:25   a lot of 4K content. There's some, but there's not a lot. So if Apple's going to do it, other

01:10:30   than to check a box and be like, "Yes, we're thinking about the future and we are supporting

01:10:35   4K for TVs that have it." If you've got a 4K TV, hooray. But it does make you ask the

01:10:42   question, "Okay, you've got a 4K box. What does it do?" And if you're Apple and you've

01:10:48   got all of your content in the iTunes store, what of it are you going to be able to make

01:10:57   4K and is it enough to go out and say, "Look, there's a reason why this is good."

01:11:00   So I feel like that's the missing piece is you can't – well, they can.

01:11:05   Ideally you wouldn't announce a 4K Apple TV and not announce a pretty decent catalog

01:11:12   of content available on iTunes.

01:11:14   I think just saying some apps like Netflix and Amazon will support 4K, yay, and then

01:11:20   move on because Apple's their own content provider too and they need to be in that business

01:11:25   I think in order to justify their product having that feature.

01:11:29   Do you think it's likely that they would do it even if they didn't have a ton of iTunes

01:11:33   stuff just so that they can say that their box has 4K so it stacks up on charts and then

01:11:38   they can just have companies like Amazon and Netflix put their stuff on?

01:11:44   it worth it for them to make a 4K Apple TV even if there isn't iTunes content?

01:11:50   Like I said, I think it's a lot less worth it. It checks the box, right? It lets them

01:11:54   say they've got a 4K device. I just feel like if I was at Apple and we had a 4K Apple TV

01:12:01   piece of hardware ready to go, I would really be trying to get the iTunes people to make

01:12:08   some deals where some content was going to be available on iTunes in 4K for the first

01:12:13   time on any platform and try to go out with a… it's a much better story if there's

01:12:19   4K content on iTunes, I guess is what I'm saying. Much better story. Not impossible

01:12:24   without it, but it's a much better story with it.

01:12:27   Tangi wants to know, "Currently, in our opinion, what is the best keyboard available

01:12:31   for the 10.5-inch iPad Pro?" What do you think?

01:12:34   keyboard? Yeah, that's it. That's it. First, right off, if it's custom designed for the

01:12:41   10.5, it's the only. There is the Logitech One. By all accounts, it is no good. It's

01:12:48   horrific, Jason. I bought one and returned it. I've been talking about it on connected

01:12:54   a little bit, but I used it for five minutes and knew I would never want to use it again.

01:13:00   It's absolutely everything I loved about the Create in the Inverse.

01:13:05   Just not a good product.

01:13:06   So I would say that right now the only real option is the smart keyboard and I'm using

01:13:14   it and mine is exactly what I'm expecting it to be because I've used a smart keyboard

01:13:19   for nearly two years, right?

01:13:21   I've always had at least one of my iPads with a smart keyboard on it and I'm fine with it.

01:13:25   I actually quite like the keyboard.

01:13:26   It does what I need it to do.

01:13:29   If you're looking for one right now, go for that.

01:13:31   Otherwise, you know, any Bluetooth keyboard will work, right?

01:13:35   You can get a stand.

01:13:37   Anything will work.

01:13:38   But if you're looking for something that attaches to it and is meant for it and treats it as

01:13:43   a package, your only option right now really is the smart keyboard that Apple make.

01:13:48   And it's good.

01:13:50   It's very good.

01:13:51   I think so.

01:13:52   Richard wants to know, "Do you think Apple would ever buy a company like Disney so that

01:13:56   they could fill their Apple TV service of exclusive content?

01:14:00   No. That's my short answer. Disney is a huge company. I don't see it. I don't see them

01:14:06   buying Disney. I don't see them buying Netflix. I don't see them buying Time Warner to get

01:14:13   HBO. AT&T is trying to buy Time Warner. Do you think this is purely just because of the

01:14:17   complexity of trying to have a company like that in your portfolio?

01:14:21   I think it's a question that a few weeks ago might have been a better question to ask.

01:14:29   Although, I think Disney is the wrong... I mean, it's just the complexity of a company like that.

01:14:35   Does Apple want to own theme parks? No, they don't.

01:14:37   I can see why if you're asking that question, you would go with Disney because of their incredibly close relationship.

01:14:43   And the fact that... Does the Jobs family still own that as well?

01:14:47   Like, the Jobs family still owns a big chunk of Disney?

01:14:51   Yeah, well I don't know if they divested, but at one point Steve Jobs was the single

01:14:57   biggest shareholder. Not that he had anything close to a majority, but because of the Pixar

01:15:02   deal was in stock. But I just, in general, the question has always been, "Buy or build?"

01:15:08   A company like Disney is already so diversified that why would Apple want to be in that business?

01:15:13   And Apple buys a whole company with ESPN and Disneyland and all of that just to get some,

01:15:21   know, video production? Seems like madness to me. So what they did was say, "We don't

01:15:28   need to buy. We can build." And they hired two incredibly well-thought-of TV executives

01:15:34   and said, and presumably are going to give them a big budget and say, "Build us a service."

01:15:38   And I think they will. I don't think there's a huge barrier there. Honestly, I think if

01:15:44   you've got the money like Apple has, you can build something that's like Netflix

01:15:47   or HBO or Amazon in five years. I think you can. Amazon Prime. A video service with good

01:15:54   content in it that's exclusive that people want to pay for. I think you can do that.

01:16:00   Maybe I'm being naïve about how the TV industry works, but when I look at it, I feel like

01:16:05   this is something that you can solve with money and talent. And that it's not one of

01:16:08   these things where Netflix has erected a barrier and it's now impossible to make. And in fact,

01:16:12   can buy from those studios. I would imagine that Disney will supply Apple with content

01:16:17   for their service, right? They don't need to buy Disney, they just need to pay Disney

01:16:20   to do what it does well. So, I think that's what will happen.

01:16:24   Yeah, I assume it might be trickier for Apple to try and maybe buy exclusive rights to content

01:16:31   and stuff like that with a provider just because of companies are hesitant of Apple because

01:16:35   of what they did to the music industry, right? Like, I feel like that that is still there.

01:16:39   I think it's part of the reason why the Apple TV did not launch with an over-the-top service.

01:16:44   I think that that might be part of it, is that Apple believes that it can negotiate

01:16:48   the way it wants to negotiate, and companies are hesitant of Apple because they don't want

01:16:53   to become the music industry.

01:16:55   I think that makes it trickier for them, so maybe it does just make sense, as you say,

01:16:59   for them to just do what Netflix is doing.

01:17:01   Netflix is also struggling to negotiate with some companies, so they're like, "Screw it,

01:17:04   we're going to make our own shows and they're going to be awesome and everybody's going

01:17:07   want them so we'll make money that way. Josh asked, "Does the files app in iOS 11 allow

01:17:14   you to open files other than photos using the USB or SD adapters?" So the adapters,

01:17:20   the lightning adapters that you can buy. I didn't know the answer to this question. I

01:17:24   believed I knew what the answer would be and then over the weekend Federico Fittucci confirmed

01:17:29   it for me that when you plug in the adapters that would open up files they still, like

01:17:36   the camera connection kit for example, which has USB on it, it still opens the Photos app

01:17:40   on iOS 11. Have you done any testing of your own on this, Jason?

01:17:44   Yeah, it doesn't do it. That's a real shame.

01:17:46   That's a real shame. I think Apple's attitude is probably that everything's wireless and

01:17:51   why would you need a memory card for anything, but it's like, well, why do you have an SD

01:17:54   card reader that you sell? Well, it's for photos. It's like, did you know that there

01:17:59   are other devices? Did you know you make an iPad Pro, which is a professional? I mean,

01:18:03   The thing that got me, and I actually did ask when I had a briefing about the iPad Pro,

01:18:06   is like, this is a product for businesses, right?

01:18:09   For business people, for workers.

01:18:11   Do you not understand that workers still have things on thumb drives and stuff?

01:18:20   That sometimes you're in a hotel room somewhere getting ready for a presentation and there's

01:18:24   a file on a thumb drive, and you have that moment where you're like, "Oh, I have an iPad,

01:18:30   so don't give that file to me.

01:18:32   instead let's find a computer that can read it and then you can email it to me or AirDrop

01:18:37   it to me and then I'll get it."

01:18:39   And it's like, "You've got a card reader, you've got a USB adapter, you've got a file

01:18:44   browser.

01:18:45   Why don't you let them work together?"

01:18:47   It does not seem to be a stretch, especially since you're making the iPad Pro.

01:18:52   I would love to see them do this.

01:18:54   There's still time, maybe some point in the future, but just realize there are these devices

01:19:00   is Federico is showing me one, like there is a lightning thumb drive, right? Like, I

01:19:07   would love to be able to use stuff like that without needing this weird app, right? Luckily

01:19:12   you have that, um, those wireless SD cards and you need to use like, because you know,

01:19:17   you want to transfer, but you have to use these weird applications because you can't

01:19:21   get the audio files, the audio files that you need for this very episode, you cannot

01:19:25   - You have to plug them into anything and get it.

01:19:29   You have to send it through this weird application instead.

01:19:32   It would be great if we could just have

01:19:34   this stuff accessible to us.

01:19:35   Yes, it's niche case, but the iPad Pro is a niche device.

01:19:39   It should be, right?

01:19:40   That's what it's, you know, I know more people buy it

01:19:42   than kind of maybe how it's intended,

01:19:44   which is like an iPad to do work on.

01:19:46   People buy them because they just want the newest,

01:19:47   the greatest, and the best iPad.

01:19:49   But like understand, you know, people wanna use this stuff.

01:19:52   They wanna get this stuff.

01:19:55   you have an app called files. Rajeev is back with another question. Do you think that Apple

01:20:01   would produce and release mature rated material through Apple Music or their Apple TV service?

01:20:07   And when I heard this question I was reminded of something that we haven't heard about for

01:20:11   a long time which was reported on last year that Dr Dre was working on a TV show which would be

01:20:20   mature? Do you remember this? Yeah. So do you think that Apple, because I mean Apple

01:20:26   in the past have been historically anti-mature I think would maybe be a way to put it. Do

01:20:32   you think that they would themselves make stuff like this? I mean we've heard about

01:20:38   this Dr. Dre thing but we don't really know how it's going to pan out if at all. But do

01:20:41   you think that they would make something like a Game of Thrones? Absolutely. You don't think

01:20:47   that you think that this is like well they're gonna make mature TV content

01:20:50   because it's what people want? Yeah I love I love the questions this week

01:20:54   because it's so many of these conventional wisdom things about Apple

01:20:56   where I'm just gonna go and say nope like like are they gonna buy Disney no

01:21:00   they're not are they gonna be afraid about things with mature content and

01:21:04   themes no I don't think they are I don't think you again I don't think you hire

01:21:08   those development people and say let's keep it rated PG I just I don't think you

01:21:15   do. I don't think you build a service. Look at what's on Netflix. Look at what's on HBO.

01:21:20   You don't build a service. Apple is not building a family video service for family viewing.

01:21:28   I don't think that's their marketing approach here. I think Apple is going to build a real

01:21:34   video service with a diverse set of programming that is going to be considered sort of premium

01:21:41   quality programming and what shows are on those services. It's Game of Thrones, it's

01:21:51   House of Cards, it's Orange is the New Black, it's the Marvel, even the Marvel shows on

01:21:57   Netflix are way rougher than anything that would be on network TV. And I think that's

01:22:03   just where we are.

01:22:05   Or in the cinema.

01:22:06   and they'll have parental controls and stuff, which they already do. And that's just, I think

01:22:13   that's absolutely what they're going to do. And I think this perception that Apple is never going

01:22:18   to do anything that isn't inoffensive in terms of content. I'll point out that iTunes sells all that

01:22:25   stuff and Apple's platforms show it via Netflix and HBO and things like that. It's all there.

01:22:33   unless Apple does something completely weird and says, "Oh no, our service is going to

01:22:37   be the family-friendly streaming service," but I just don't see it. I don't think that's

01:22:42   how they'll do it. I think they'll have family-appropriate stuff and more mature content stuff and it'll

01:22:47   all be labeled and that's going to be how it is. I don't see how you compete in this

01:22:51   market. I don't see how you compete with Westworld and Game of Thrones and House of Cards and

01:22:57   do it rated PG. I just know.

01:23:01   And finally today, Chris asks, "Jason talks about being a freelancer and podcaster, but

01:23:08   not about running a large podcast network. Is The Incomparable much time and work for

01:23:12   Jason?"

01:23:15   The Incomparable is not a large podcast network.

01:23:18   Okay, let's say it's large in the amount of shows and people, which I know from experience,

01:23:26   working with a large group of people can bring with it a lot of work, just inherently in

01:23:31   the fact that you have a lot of people to help and manage and work with.

01:23:36   Well you know the shows that are on the Incomparable Network that are not mine or that I'm not

01:23:40   involved with, it's essentially self-serve. Like I don't have to work with Joe and Dan

01:23:46   on Defocused. They got it. They do it and it works fine. I don't have to work with you

01:23:53   on the Ring Post.

01:23:55   I'm off in my own little world like over there.

01:23:59   - Yeah, so The Incomparable's a hobby.

01:24:03   It does bring in a portion of my income,

01:24:06   mostly for the main show, but it is a small portion.

01:24:11   There is some work there, there's some technical work

01:24:14   in terms of getting podcasts up and running.

01:24:16   There is also some work in terms of,

01:24:19   we have our membership program, so every quarter,

01:24:24   my wife and I have to do some accounting

01:24:27   and bookkeeping and payments to the hosts for their shows that have been supported by members.

01:24:33   But, you know, it's not... there are a lot of shows on the network, that's true, but it's not something that I tightly manage.

01:24:41   I just try to keep the trains running and help where I can and do the shows that are the shows that I do there.

01:24:49   And in most cases, it's a labor of love.

01:24:54   The main incomparable show is also something

01:24:56   that is part of my living.

01:25:00   But it's not a huge part.

01:25:01   And most of the other shows, the membership support essentially--

01:25:06   it basically goes to allowing the shows to exist and maybe

01:25:10   throw a little bit back to the host.

01:25:11   But a lot of it is like, we can afford

01:25:13   to pay somebody to edit the show, which

01:25:15   is how the show happens.

01:25:16   Random Trek is like that.

01:25:18   Total Party Kill and Game Show are kind of like that now too where there's support there

01:25:23   and the support really goes to the fact that I don't have to edit those shows anymore.

01:25:28   We can pay somebody to do it because I don't have the time to do it because I'm out on

01:25:31   my own doing my own stuff.

01:25:34   But it's not a large, I would say, not a large broadcast network in any term except for maybe

01:25:39   how many shows are on it.

01:25:41   They're all great shows though.

01:25:45   All the great shows.

01:25:46   They're all the great shows.

01:25:47   Yeah, I guess it's difficult to see from the outside, because I talk about running

01:25:54   a podcast network, but Real AFM is more focused as a business.

01:25:58   It's your job. Real AFM is your job. The incomparable, it's not my job. It is basically

01:26:04   my hobby, or you could say it's a very small side project. In fact, I would argue, and

01:26:10   I think I mentioned this on free agents at one point, I probably spend, if you calibrated

01:26:15   many hours you spend and how much money is a result of that, it would be very clear then

01:26:21   the incomparable as a laborer love because I do spend more time on it that probably is

01:26:25   justified in terms of what I get paid. But it is the thing I love to do. I don't have

01:26:29   – it is kind of my hobby. People are like, "Oh, what hobbies? What do you do when you're

01:26:33   not doing podcasts and writing things?" And the answer is no, that's like I spend

01:26:37   time with my family.

01:26:38   Other podcasts and other writing things.

01:26:41   then I do podcasts and writing. I am fortunate to be able to do the things that I like to

01:26:47   do and want to do as my job. And so, it all just kind of gets intermingled.

01:26:52   You're saying, like, about, you know, "Real AFM is my job and the incomparable isn't

01:26:58   so much your job." Like, I think Real AFM is more your job than the incomparable is

01:27:02   your job, right?

01:27:03   Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, in terms – certainly in terms of how I make my living, it is. And

01:27:10   thanks to our sponsors. Sponsors and listeners, thank you. We need you both. Keep coming,

01:27:16   all of you. Absolutely. Well, a lot of the incomparable shows have the listener part.

01:27:21   They just don't have the sponsor part, and that's fine, right? So, yeah. No, I'd say

01:27:27   Relay and Six Colors are my jobs, and the incomparable is sort of a part-time job and

01:27:35   sort of a hobby. I don't know if you noticed this, Jason, but

01:27:39   I tried to skew the Ask Upgrades to you this week.

01:27:43   Because I know I took them all last week so you can...

01:27:46   It was Ask Myke last week.

01:27:47   It was Ask Jason this week.

01:27:49   TV.

01:27:50   Oh good.

01:27:51   Lots of TV was in there.

01:27:52   Lots of TV.

01:27:53   It's good.

01:27:54   If you want to find our show notes you can go to relay.fm/upgrades/147.

01:27:56   If you'd like to support our sponsors, which again we really appreciate when you do, go

01:28:02   to check out the great folk over at Encapsular, Smile and Jamf Now.

01:28:07   If you want to find Jason online, he's over at Sixcolors.com, TheIncomparable.com, he

01:28:12   hosts a bunch of shows at Relay.fm, and he's on Twitter, he's @JSNEL, J-S-N-E-L-L-L.

01:28:18   I am, I'm Myke, @I-M-Y-K-E.

01:28:22   Thank you so much for listening.

01:28:24   We'll be back next time.

01:28:26   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:28:28   Hydrate, stay out of the sun, everybody.

01:28:30   Stay cool.

01:28:31   Stay frosty.

01:28:32   [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:28:36   [ Music ]