138: Bad for the Person, Great for the Wizard


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 138.

00:00:12   Today's show is brought to you by Encapsula, TextExpander, Mac Weldon and FreshBooks.

00:00:18   My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Mr Jason Snell.

00:00:22   Hey Myke, how's it going? Welcome, welcome home.

00:00:25   I arrived home today from the Atlanta Pen Show where I was taking part in pen addict

00:00:32   stuff.

00:00:33   I'll put a link in the show notes.

00:00:34   We did a live show.

00:00:35   We had a hundred pen nerds in a room and we recorded an episode and it was great.

00:00:42   And if you're interested in the pen addict at all, maybe you've never listened before,

00:00:47   this might be a good jumping on point.

00:00:49   Live episodes are the way to go.

00:00:50   We did that live clockwise at ULL and that was great. There's laughter and people applaud

00:00:56   at the end and it's amazing.

00:00:58   It's great when you start the show and people are screaming. It's great. I really want to

00:01:05   do more of them but it's really difficult. It's a difficult thing to get it all set up.

00:01:12   All the logistics of it including the technical stuff, it's a big deal. I'm glad you had a

00:01:17   a good time. That's why we're, if you are wondering why this podcast episode dropped

00:01:21   in your feed a day late, Myke forgot what day it was.

00:01:24   I sure did.

00:01:25   When he planned his trip and said, "No, I'll be back on Monday," and then he realized he

00:01:30   was not going to be back on Monday.

00:01:31   At least I realized on like Friday or Saturday that I wasn't going to be home until Tuesday,

00:01:37   right? Like, luckily enough, I didn't recognize this on Monday morning.

00:01:41   Yeah, or like Sunday night at the airport.

00:01:43   Mm-hmm. That would have been very unfortunate.

00:01:45   my plane. It's not here. Yeah. So it's good. And I realized just as you picked up the call

00:01:52   today that this is the first time we've done a show where I know what your office looks

00:01:57   like.

00:01:58   Yeah, because you've been here.

00:01:59   Because I've been in it. Mm-hmm. That's right.

00:02:01   I know where you live.

00:02:03   You do. Oh, dear.

00:02:04   I mean, like, literally, I know where you live. I've been to your house. It's not—I

00:02:07   didn't mean that to be threatening, but it came out threatening.

00:02:09   I have just come back from the US and in the hotel, in the parking lot of the hotel that

00:02:17   I stay at there is a waffle house. In the parking lot. So Jill's question for Snout

00:02:22   Talk this week, Jill asked, "Jason, pancakes or waffles?"

00:02:27   Waffles.

00:02:28   You're a waffle guy, huh?

00:02:30   Yeah. I mean, people who follow me on Twitter know this already. In fact, I just made waffles

00:02:36   for dinner a couple nights ago because we had nothing in the house and didn't want to

00:02:42   go shopping. And so I said we'll do breakfast for dinner and I made waffles. I like waffles.

00:02:47   They have shape. They have, you know, they can be crispy and all that. Pancakes are nice.

00:02:50   I don't want to run down pancakes but they're just kind of, you know, they're floppy and

00:02:55   insubstantial and they're fine but waffles are the winner here.

00:03:00   So, I'm gonna say, nobody asked me, but I'm gonna say, uh, I like pancakes more, but I've

00:03:06   never really had good homemade waffles. So, I need good homemade waffles and then I can

00:03:14   make my decision.

00:03:15   I don't know, I don't, waffles are waffles, I don't know if good homemade waffles, I mean,

00:03:19   like-

00:03:20   I don't know, I mean, Waffle House waffles are not very good.

00:03:22   Yeah, alright, well, maybe so, maybe so. There are good waffles out there, I'll just say

00:03:27   that. But I like them because they got little holes, little indentations so you can get

00:03:32   like syrup in there or butter. And in Belgium, where they serve waffles from a little cart

00:03:38   and they kind of bake them with the syrupy stuff kind of on the griddle, the Belgian's

00:03:44   waffles are the best. And if you've only had "Belgian waffles" which in a place that's

00:03:50   not Belgium, you have not had the Belgian's waffles. So again, I promote Belgium as a

00:03:57   a place you should go, and when you're there, beer, waffles, chocolate, french fries.

00:04:03   I've done all of those things in that place, and I agree with that assessment 100%.

00:04:07   They are the best.

00:04:08   Yep.

00:04:09   So Jason, nothing happened on April the 18th.

00:04:13   So of course nothing happened on April the 18th.

00:04:15   Hashtag Jason was right.

00:04:16   You may remember weeks and weeks ago, I think we were discussing this when Apple Park was

00:04:20   announced, I brought up the fact that at WWDC on the wall there was a call out to a date

00:04:26   which said, "Hello, April 18th, 2017."

00:04:29   And I thought that there might be something about that date.

00:04:32   There was nothing about that date.

00:04:34   What actually happens on that day

00:04:36   is it's a tax return day in the United States of America.

00:04:38   And that's probably what Apple were referring to.

00:04:41   So #JasonWasRight, nothing happened on that day

00:04:44   except people paid their taxes.

00:04:47   - Everybody have a waffle.

00:04:48   - I saw on The Verge this week that Samsung announced

00:04:54   that the pre-orders for the Galaxy S8 were 30% higher year over year compared to the

00:04:58   Galaxy S7. And that Samsung is saying this is their best ever pre-order number. The reason

00:05:05   I bring this up is because we spent quite a lot of time following the exploding Note

00:05:10   7 fiasco. And I know everybody knows this is not that line of phones, but it's Samsung's

00:05:19   phone that came directly after that. So in theory, will have been affected with all of

00:05:25   the press and all of the bad coverage about the fact that their phones were exploding.

00:05:28   In fact, every review I watched or read basically led with the fact that the Note 7 exploded,

00:05:35   right? Like it was the big trend. Rightly so. I mean, you can't write the review of

00:05:42   this phone without bringing that up because it affects it. You know, like it seems like

00:05:46   Samsung actually undercooked the battery in this. They put a weaker battery than they

00:05:51   maybe would have. It doesn't have a real great improvement in battery life in any way.

00:05:57   So it's interesting to me to see that it seems that people have decided they don't care.

00:06:06   And that either they think that this is not a problem or they believe that Samsung can

00:06:12   fix the situation and/or what I expect is happening is people seeing the look of that

00:06:17   phone and they're like "Oh my god, I want that" and they're buying it and they don't

00:06:21   care about the fact that the note exploded.

00:06:25   So I have two theories here. One is the Galaxy S8 flagship is not the Note, it's not the

00:06:34   phablet, it's not the huge phone, and the Galaxy S7 is Samsung's most popular phone.

00:06:40   So I think what this says to us is the Samsung brand as a whole has not been so tarnished

00:06:48   that it is dramatically depressing sales, although we will never know what the sales

00:06:52   might have been, which we'll get to my second theory in a moment, will never tell us what

00:06:57   they might have been, that this might have been an even greater blockbuster of a phone

00:07:02   if they had not had their problems last time.

00:07:07   But we'll have to see what happens with the Note 8. They've resolved that they're doing

00:07:11   a Note 8. They're not renaming it. They're just doubling down on it. We'll see how those

00:07:16   sales go, although I've got a feeling that they'll go okay if only because everybody

00:07:22   who wanted a Note 7 couldn't have one or had to give it back, right? But we'll see. We'll

00:07:29   see if that brand sales are suppressed. It's also possible that people who used to buy

00:07:33   notes are like forget that I'm just going to get the S8 and be done. So that's also

00:07:39   possible. My second theory here is that this, you know, Apple showed it, when you make substantial

00:07:49   changes to the phones look and ergonomics you can get a sales boost. When Apple made

00:07:55   the big phones, they had a huge sales boost. So maybe the, you know, small bezel, super

00:08:04   interesting looking design of the S8 is something that consumers really respond to. And because,

00:08:10   you know, that consumers respond to changes in design, especially if they are ones that

00:08:16   you can see very readily and it makes the phone look cool or makes any product look

00:08:21   cool they respond to that so I think that maybe that's part of it too.

00:08:26   So you know it's what this does tell us is that Samsung as a global phone brand doesn't

00:08:31   seem to have been smashed by you know all the bad press for the note at least when it

00:08:39   comes to their most important product right there their single most important product

00:08:43   is the S8 and they it's interesting that they were kind of paranoid about it though like

00:08:48   the New York Times I think didn't get a review unit in advance because the I mean I wonder

00:08:56   what's going on there whether they're they're a little concerned or whether they're trying

00:08:59   to have some payback to certain news organizations who they felt covered the the note seven thing

00:09:06   aggressively I don't know quite what's going on with that but feels like an almost Apple

00:09:11   like move really isn't it I know right yeah but by all accounts it's a successful launch

00:09:17   And so we can make a lot out of the Note 7 debacle and the fact that the leader of Samsung

00:09:23   got arrested and stuff like that.

00:09:26   But the fact is Samsung as a global technology giant, not just in the phone space but all

00:09:33   sorts of places, still seems to just be motoring along and their most important smartphone

00:09:37   product is doing great.

00:09:40   And I think you, honestly I think you nailed it in the fact that the design is trumping

00:09:44   anything else.

00:09:45   Right, I think so.

00:09:46   people were seeing that and they're like, whoa.

00:09:48   Like, I mean, I said, one of the places and I'll say here,

00:09:50   like, I think that's the best looking phone

00:09:53   out right now, at least.

00:09:56   - Sure.

00:09:57   - You know, like a regular consumer is gonna look at it

00:09:58   and go, wow, that's really cool.

00:09:59   I want it, I want it, I want it, right?

00:10:01   That's not, that makes perfect sense.

00:10:05   And let's keep in mind too, that, you know,

00:10:06   we talk a lot about, well, we don't on this show,

00:10:09   but people in general talk a lot about like Apple's

00:10:11   market share and Android market share and things like that.

00:10:13   But in terms of like successful smartphone products,

00:10:18   the two most successful smartphone products

00:10:21   are the Galaxy S series and the iPhone.

00:10:24   Like everybody else is way behind.

00:10:28   Those are the two.

00:10:29   So they're gonna be the best.

00:10:31   And if there is a competition there,

00:10:34   and I would argue that I'm not sure

00:10:36   people are really kind of hopping back and forth

00:10:38   between the Galaxy and the iPhone so much.

00:10:41   - I don't think it would be substantial, right?

00:10:42   people do it but I don't think it's a huge substantial numbers I think

00:10:45   especially for those two phones particularly people have the one that

00:10:49   they like if you start moving into like HTC and LG like I think people move

00:10:54   around a lot more right so I would actually argue that the the biggest

00:10:59   competition here is like galaxy sa doing well is eliminating even more of the

00:11:05   oxygen from the high-end Android smartphone makers you know compete with

00:11:10   Samsung and that's it's kind of a fascinating dynamic to see that you know

00:11:15   there's Google and there's Android and that's great but then there's Samsung

00:11:19   and Samsung is trying to exert itself in software in certain places and it's also

00:11:24   trying to stomp out stomp on all the competition and and and on the Google

00:11:30   side on the Android side so that's kind of interesting too so it's a it's a

00:11:34   weird dynamic but I think if you care about the iPhone I don't know I mean I

00:11:38   think the most interesting thing here is that Samsung seems to have set the bar

00:11:41   in terms of this design and all the rumors that we've heard about a new

00:11:45   iPhone suggest that Apple is basically on the same path to do the same thing

00:11:49   and it's not because either company in this case is copying one

00:11:53   another it's because this is sort of where the technology is capable of going

00:11:56   today because and full credit to Samsung for years Samsung was doing fast follow

00:12:03   on Apple where Apple would release a product and then six months later you'd

00:12:06   see the Samsung product look exactly the same. And Samsung made a product that does not look

00:12:11   like the iPhone, right? It looks different. They are pushing it forward here. And full

00:12:16   credit to them for that. Apple's going to have to respond, yeah.

00:12:19   Funnily enough, we might end up in September going, "Oh, wow, that really looks like the

00:12:23   S8." And that will be an absolutely interesting thing. And I think that it is a sign of the

00:12:30   times, whatever that may be. And I think it's a sign of two things. It's a speeding up of

00:12:34   Samsung and the slowing down of Apple. And it's resulted in this product. And I think

00:12:40   it's really interesting to see the tides turn. We've had 10 years of it being in the other

00:12:47   direction and Samsung, for their faults, have finally gotten to the point where they're

00:12:52   able to produce something quicker.

00:12:54   Yeah, I mean, the other way to view it is that there's a whole collection of places

00:12:59   where Samsung has tried to do things that are forward-looking.

00:13:02   Oh yeah.

00:13:03   most of them have been ridiculous like you know we'll look at your eyes and if

00:13:08   you don't look at your phone will pause your video it's like no I don't want

00:13:11   that stop. I mean they still got a load of that stupid stuff software stuff in

00:13:16   this phone. The software stuff is still there. And their intelligent agent that didn't

00:13:21   ship with it but yes this is a case where they made some very specific

00:13:25   hardware decisions that seemed to you know that everybody seems to like and

00:13:29   make the phone look good and it's, you know, and Apple has been working on this too, but

00:13:36   because of their schedules, you know, Samsung got there first and in the end getting there

00:13:40   first probably doesn't matter. But it does raise the bar and if Apple doesn't get there,

00:13:47   maybe it matters.

00:13:48   So I just wanted to address some follow up in regards to yours and Ren's discussion from

00:13:53   last week about the iPad Pro and kind of where it is and where it's going.

00:13:56   Is this internal, sort of like internal follow-up where you're following up?

00:14:00   Yeah. Or are there other people following up? Is this about you?

00:14:04   I don't know. We'll have to ask Sir Akusa how he defines this. I'm not sure.

00:14:07   Okay. Right. Fair enough. So Simon wrote in and he said, "Two themes regarding quality

00:14:11   iPad software are a lack of pro-level software on the iPad versus the Mac,

00:14:16   and inability of developers to earn what they need from iPad-specific software due to consumer

00:14:20   cost expectations.

00:14:22   Could you both envision Apple creating an iPad Pro section of the App Store that changed

00:14:26   the calculus of it. A niche gated community within the app store with a few conditions.

00:14:32   Software limited to the iPad Pro line, a small pool of apps that carry a higher price, emphasis

00:14:37   on utilising pro hardware features of the iPad like the pencil and smart connector,

00:14:41   a definite upgrade path utilising subscriptions and more customer information shared between

00:14:46   Apple and the developer. It could be a pie in the sky type thing but Apple should create

00:14:50   a path to sell 20, 50 or 100 dollar apps in order to emphasise the production features

00:14:55   of the iPad. What do you think? So, you know, reasonable people can differ,

00:15:01   but I actually kind of reject the premise that Apple needs to do something like create

00:15:09   an iPad Pro. I mean, section, like in the sense that you'd feature them, sure, but I

00:15:13   feel like the path forward here is for Apple to continue doing what it started to do, which

00:15:18   is differentiating the iPad Pro by making the iPad the lower end system and making the

00:15:24   the iPad Pro, the high-end system, it's already differentiating the two products. And there's

00:15:29   the expensive iPad and the cheaper iPad. And that's a start. I think there's nothing in

00:15:33   today's climate that prevents any of the things that Simon wrote in about from happening without

00:15:42   any policy changes from Apple, without a single change. Like lack of pro-level software on

00:15:46   the iPad versus the Mac. Well, first off, there's a lot of pro-level software on the

00:15:49   the iPad. That I think is a mistake to say that. It's not all there, but there's a lot

00:15:54   of really great pro-level software on the iPad today, and the platform certainly makes

00:16:00   it possible for them there to be more. Now I'm a little disappointed in Adobe for doing

00:16:04   something like breaking Photoshop into like eight different little apps and not embracing

00:16:08   the fact that maybe we just want to run Photoshop on our iPads, but maybe they'll get there

00:16:13   at some point. I have the five Photoshop apps or whatever on my iPad, and quite frankly

00:16:17   is I use Photoshop because I understand kind of the premise of it because I've

00:16:21   been using it for 20 years, 25 years at this point, 30 years, I don't know, a very

00:16:26   long time, and then on iOS it loses all of its help. The brand doesn't have the

00:16:33   stickiness to me on the iPad because it's not familiar at all, it's like, well,

00:16:37   wait a second, how many different Photoshop apps do I have and how do I use them and

00:16:40   where do I go and it's kind of a mess, but that's on Adobe, they could change it.

00:16:43   They've got a subscription model. The Microsoft Office apps on iOS are great.

00:16:47   and they have a subscription model.

00:16:49   And it's sustainable.

00:16:52   The inability of developers to earn what they need

00:16:54   from iPad specific software.

00:16:55   Well, you look at the Omni group,

00:16:57   they charge higher prices or they have a subscription model

00:17:00   and you can get the money you need.

00:17:02   All that needs to change is that people

00:17:04   who are making professional software on iOS

00:17:07   need to charge the right price for it.

00:17:08   And I think having the iPad Pro be more differentiated

00:17:12   and realizing that pro software is not gonna cost $5

00:17:16   and that people who are interested in buying apps for $5 or $2

00:17:20   are not your market and just don't price your apps that way.

00:17:22   All that has to happen is that you price the apps higher.

00:17:27   And again, then they have to sell enough copies

00:17:30   for that to be sustainable,

00:17:31   either a la carte or through the subscription model,

00:17:34   which seems like a pretty good model too.

00:17:36   The challenge is going to be,

00:17:37   you need to get pros to use the systems.

00:17:39   I think that Apple differentiating the iPad Pro

00:17:42   helps push the product line down there.

00:17:45   but I don't think it'll succeed or fail as a market

00:17:48   based on the success of the iPad Pro hardware

00:17:50   and whether people can sell professional software

00:17:53   at a sustainable rate.

00:17:54   It will succeed or fail,

00:17:55   regardless of whether there's a special iPad Pro app store.

00:17:58   I just don't think that needs to happen.

00:18:01   I just don't think it matters.

00:18:02   Now, maybe a showcase for iPad Pros,

00:18:07   which they already have,

00:18:08   like great on iPad Pro is fine,

00:18:10   but just charge a sustainable rate for your software.

00:18:15   Use the pro hardware, I agree with that.

00:18:18   Absolutely, if you're building professional software

00:18:22   for the iPad, you should assume that your professional users

00:18:24   are gonna use the iPad Pro and focus on that stuff.

00:18:28   And there's already a subscription model,

00:18:30   the 30% goes down after they've been on it for a year.

00:18:34   So there's a lot of ways you can do that

00:18:36   if you use Apple's model.

00:18:38   And if you do what Adobe and Microsoft are doing,

00:18:41   you'd sell a subscription on your own

00:18:43   and you get all the money.

00:18:45   So there are lots of ways to do this now.

00:18:47   I think it's misguided to say that this is a problem

00:18:51   that Apple can fix by tinkering with the details

00:18:53   in the app store.

00:18:55   Again, reasonable people can differ,

00:18:57   but in my mind, this is all about Apple building

00:18:59   a better platform that's more appealing

00:19:01   to professional users in terms of the iPad Pro

00:19:04   and differentiating it from the iPad,

00:19:06   which they're doing already, we're seeing it.

00:19:08   And I think it will be even clearer

00:19:10   with the next round of iPads whenever they come

00:19:12   and hopefully with the next version of iOS.

00:19:15   And then it's for developers to say,

00:19:17   I'm going to have the courage, sorry to use that word,

00:19:20   to say, yeah, I'm gonna charge a reasonable amount of money

00:19:23   for this product because it's a pro product for iPad Pro.

00:19:26   And I'm not going to try and,

00:19:28   if somebody is not gonna buy it

00:19:29   because it doesn't cost $5, too bad.

00:19:32   I don't want that market.

00:19:33   That's not the market I'm interested in.

00:19:34   We're no longer chasing iPhone users for 99 cents.

00:19:38   We are building professional products and that can happen.

00:19:42   And you know, there's a chicken and egg thing there

00:19:45   about the software and the hardware

00:19:46   and how you get that to happen.

00:19:48   And Apple should be evangelizing this and encouraging this,

00:19:51   but I don't think they need to actually like create

00:19:54   a new place for the iPad Pro.

00:19:57   I think they just, you know, they need to make it clear

00:19:59   that it's a pro level system and get, you know,

00:20:02   and software needs to be charged accordingly

00:20:04   to be sustainable. Speaking of professional applications, professional

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00:22:05   which

00:22:26   So at the end of today's episode, we're going to be talking about Blade Runner for

00:22:31   Myke at the Movies.

00:22:32   Yes.

00:22:33   Um, and uh, I just wanted to mention this because I wasn't here last week, so I didn't

00:22:38   remind anybody.

00:22:39   But we're doing that at the end of today's episode.

00:22:42   Consider yourself reminded.

00:22:43   You have been reminded.

00:22:44   So if-

00:22:45   You look at the length of this episode and you think, "Oh my god, why is it so long?"

00:22:48   The answer is Myke at the Movies is why.

00:22:50   The answer is Blade Runner.

00:22:51   That's the reason.

00:22:52   Yep.

00:22:53   Jason, you put in this big topic today.

00:22:56   - Can you explain to me what's on your mind?

00:22:59   - How big it is, but it's something I thought

00:23:01   was interesting.

00:23:02   We talked over the weekend when you were in Atlanta

00:23:04   about the Uber story that Myke Isaac wrote

00:23:07   for the New York Times.

00:23:08   And if we wanted to talk about Uber again,

00:23:11   I was like, man, I don't wanna talk about Uber again.

00:23:14   And that story is like full of,

00:23:16   it's got some awful stuff in it about Tim Cook

00:23:18   calling in Travis Kalanick and saying,

00:23:22   you're in trouble because you're doing this thing.

00:23:24   and it was super sleazy where they were finding ways

00:23:28   to tag phone hardware using APIs that were,

00:23:33   I think people figure probably private, but accessible.

00:23:38   Anyway, basically they're doing like tracking

00:23:43   in the sense of do not track kind of tracking

00:23:46   where they were able to kind of fingerprint a user

00:23:48   and their device in a unique way

00:23:50   so that they saw them on the web later,

00:23:52   they would be able to recognize them

00:23:53   or if they wiped the phone and then reinstalled that they would be able to tell that that

00:23:58   was the same thing. They said they were doing it for fraud detection. But one of the things

00:24:01   – they knew that it was counter to Apple's guidelines because they put in geofencing

00:24:06   to basically turn off the feature if it was in Cupertino.

00:24:09   Jeez. I mean, it's like no matter what they were doing it for, whether it was some good

00:24:14   thing or not, it was something that Nudish shouldn't be doing. At its core, that's

00:24:19   the part of it, right? You knew you shouldn't do this to the point that you made it so no

00:24:23   nobody in Apple would find it.

00:24:25   And also, do they think, I mean, either they thought that Apple was that bad or Apple was

00:24:30   that bad, but like, if you're Apple, you've got to do lots of things to like test this

00:24:34   stuff including presumably spoofing where you're located in order to set an arbitrary

00:24:39   location and see what happens in that location so that you can test out Uber and instead

00:24:43   of ordering a car to one infinite loop, you order it in Philadelphia or something like

00:24:48   that and so did that and they obviously didn't get away from it but that was 2015 right like

00:24:53   uber in the grand scheme of things uber has I would argue probably done way worse stuff

00:24:58   in the intervening time for people to get mad about this kind of older thing that they

00:25:02   did and people were saying that some of it was related to maybe stuff that's getting

00:25:06   closed up or has been closed up in iOS it was not like physical location tracking that's

00:25:11   one of the funny things that came up as people assume this meant like uber had some strange

00:25:14   black magic where you could delete the Uber app and they still knew where you were. But

00:25:19   in reality, people leap to that conclusion, which was not true, because there was this

00:25:25   whole other story of Uber hanging onto your location data after you closed the Uber app

00:25:30   so they could see where you went, which again falls under the category of sleazy things

00:25:35   that Uber has done since this happened. And so people jump to conclusions about this because

00:25:40   of prior behavior on their part, which is kind of reasonable in a way, even though not

00:25:45   accurate in this case. But this is all a prologue because I think the most interesting thing,

00:25:49   or one of the most interesting things to come out of this whole article, was about user

00:25:54   data and about, in broad strokes, how whole businesses, and mostly internet businesses,

00:26:02   whole businesses exist to do super sleazy things with personal information of people

00:26:11   on the internet and you stop for a moment and think, "Well, how do they get that personal

00:26:16   information?" And the answer is they create services that are free, that help you do something,

00:26:25   and then they turn around and sell your information to other people. And this is, you know, when

00:26:34   we talk about like if the product is free, then you're the product, you're not the customer,

00:26:41   you're the product. And people have made that argument about like Google and things like

00:26:44   that, and there's some truth to that, but I want to take it out of the Apple versus

00:26:47   Google wars and talk about it a little more abstractly, which is there's a company called

00:26:52   Slice that does a lot of competitive data stuff and they claim to know things about

00:26:58   people's internet purchase habits. And the question, and this has come up over the years,

00:27:03   it's like how do they do that? And the answer is they have access to bulk anonymized data

00:27:08   from people's inboxes of the receipts that they get from online orders they place. The

00:27:13   question is, the next question is where do they get that information? The answer is Slice

00:27:17   bought a company called Unroll Me that does this. Unroll Me is this thing that is a web

00:27:24   app that you authorize to look at your Gmail inbox basically. Your inbox, it connects to

00:27:29   your email server, reads your email, and what it offers the user is the ability to auto-unsubscribe

00:27:37   from mailing lists and stuff like that. It's a free, helpful service.

00:27:41   A pretty cool service, right? Like the idea and everything behind it. It's like, "Yeah,

00:27:45   this is cool."

00:27:46   - It's okay, I mean, you can probably just do that yourself,

00:27:49   but yeah, it's like, we're gonna help you do this.

00:27:51   And there are other services like this that do other things

00:27:54   which is a whole other issue

00:27:55   'cause some of them are legitimate and some of them are not.

00:27:57   But imagine this is a company whose business model

00:28:00   is give people a useful tool for free

00:28:04   in exchange for being able to take the contents

00:28:07   of their email inbox and sell it.

00:28:10   Maybe not specific emails, but maybe it's anonymized,

00:28:13   maybe it's just data, maybe they're just using a sample.

00:28:16   Although there's at least a rumor that somebody is spreading

00:28:19   that at some point they were actually storing the context

00:28:22   of everybody's email on an Amazon S3 server

00:28:24   in an unsecure fashion.

00:28:25   They deny it, but somebody who says that they were working

00:28:29   at a company that almost bought Unroll.me said

00:28:32   that it's true.

00:28:33   So I don't really know, but they could have done that.

00:28:36   Maybe they didn't, but they could have

00:28:37   because they have access to everybody's email boxes.

00:28:40   - They may have not even meant to,

00:28:42   but they might've done it, right?

00:28:43   Like it's very possible.

00:28:44   - They might've done it accidentally.

00:28:45   it might've been unsecure, you know, imagine having,

00:28:48   you know, we had around the election,

00:28:51   we had all these people who had their email compromised.

00:28:53   Imagine you personally are like,

00:28:55   "Oh, well, that would never happen to me."

00:28:56   Meanwhile, you've got a service

00:28:58   that you don't know who they are or what they do,

00:29:00   and they are silently downloading all your email

00:29:05   because you let them.

00:29:06   And this was their business model.

00:29:07   Like the unroll me business model is,

00:29:09   how do we make money from this resurface?

00:29:11   Well, we gathered the data and then we sell it.

00:29:13   And that was the whole idea.

00:29:16   And you know, they, the way that Myke Isaac put it

00:29:19   in the New York Times is Uber used this

00:29:23   competitive intelligence.

00:29:25   They purchased data from Slice using an email digest service

00:29:29   it owns named Unroll Me.

00:29:30   Slice collected its customers Lyft receipts

00:29:33   and sold the anonymized data to Uber,

00:29:35   which Uber used as a proxy for the health of Lyft's business.

00:29:39   And we've seen this,

00:29:39   Slice has used this for all sorts

00:29:41   of other purchase information.

00:29:43   like how are people buying things on the internet?

00:29:45   Well, we have a sample that we can use to tell it as a proxy

00:29:50   to tell how it's going.

00:29:51   It turns out their sample is that they,

00:29:54   Unroll.me has everybody's inboxes

00:29:56   so that they can scan it for information.

00:29:58   And again, that's a trade off that maybe people

00:30:00   are willing to make for that service.

00:30:02   But I think it's something that shows you

00:30:07   how this economy on the internet works,

00:30:10   where you get something for free,

00:30:12   but it's more complex trade than you ever really think about

00:30:16   in terms of access to your data.

00:30:18   And we all need to think about it more.

00:30:20   Like we can, we all need to think about this stuff more.

00:30:23   You need to check the terms of service when you sign up.

00:30:26   You need to ponder a little bit about who is paying

00:30:28   to keep this company afloat.

00:30:30   And the problem is a lot of tech companies these days

00:30:33   are VC funded and their business model is give everything

00:30:36   away for free and then figure out a business model.

00:30:38   So sometimes it can be hard because they're not always

00:30:41   created with selling your data in mind,

00:30:45   but they may get there if that's the place

00:30:47   that they can find money.

00:30:48   Like that face app, you know,

00:30:49   that people are passing around, it's like it's free.

00:30:52   And it's like, you can make yourself look old

00:30:53   or do a gender swap or make yourself look young and pretty.

00:30:57   That's a free app.

00:30:58   And everybody's uploading their pictures to their server.

00:31:01   And my question with that has always been like,

00:31:03   what's step two here?

00:31:05   What are they doing with all of our pictures?

00:31:07   Because what, you know, what,

00:31:09   And maybe it's nothing and they're not keeping them and they've got some other business model,

00:31:13   but you've got to ask the question, like, why is this happening? Who is this company?

00:31:19   What are they doing with my data?

00:31:21   David Tompa There are a bunch of business models that

00:31:24   any company that offers free can pursue. And I think it's always important to bear in mind

00:31:33   that one of them is this. And it's something that I think about, you know,

00:31:38   And people get frustrated with my approach to this stuff sometimes, especially people

00:31:44   that have a great fear of Google.

00:31:48   But I know the trade-off.

00:31:50   I don't know it explicitly, but I know it abstractly.

00:31:54   It's the same with something like Unroll Me.

00:31:58   If I used a service like this, I wouldn't necessarily think that they were doing what

00:32:02   they did, but I would know that they're doing something.

00:32:05   And it's up to you if you are willing to say, well, let me think about what my data's worth

00:32:12   and what they may get about me, and what they may actually be able to really do with this

00:32:16   data, and then decide if I think that this is worth it for me.

00:32:21   So let's use this example, right?

00:32:24   Now this Lyft email receipt thing, I mean, a lot of people are using this to say how

00:32:30   terrible Uber is, but I actually don't think Uber is at fault in this, to be honest.

00:32:35   were offered this data, right, by a company.

00:32:37   Yeah, but they're buying market intelligence.

00:32:39   Yeah, I'm sure Lyft do it as well, right?

00:32:42   I'm sure lots of companies do it.

00:32:44   Because you get a company like Slice come to you and be like, "I can tell you about

00:32:47   your customers."

00:32:48   And it's like, well, yeah, you buy that data.

00:32:50   Slice is at fault, really, for getting the data without telling people, you know, but

00:32:55   whatever.

00:32:56   Like, this is, like, are you familiar with Experian, the credit referencing company?

00:33:00   Sure.

00:33:01   I was going to mention financial stuff that is, that this happens all the time.

00:33:04   Yeah, go ahead.

00:33:05   When I worked in marketing, this is the type of data we would buy.

00:33:10   And it's very broad data, but they can say, "We can take this algorithm that we built

00:33:16   and we can overlay it over your customer base and we can tell you who we think have children.

00:33:21   And then you can use that data however you think you should use that data."

00:33:25   This is how marketing is done, right?

00:33:27   But the data has to come from somewhere.

00:33:29   A lot of the time that data comes from places that would be normal or places that you would

00:33:34   expect. Like, so for example, when I was in the bank, that data came from our transaction

00:33:38   information.

00:33:39   Right.

00:33:40   And everyone knows we can see their transactions, right? And I feel like that that is something

00:33:44   that's like, okay, like if you've based something on the fact that I've used my

00:33:47   credit card review, well, you know that. So like, the bank wasn't selling the data,

00:33:51   it was using a model, right?

00:33:53   Right.

00:33:54   But this data is somewhere.

00:33:55   And as far as – as far as we know, Slice also gets data from places like financial

00:33:59   institutions, right?

00:34:00   I'm sure they do.

00:34:01   They do.

00:34:02   probably has a deal with a bunch of major credit card makers to just, again, anonymized,

00:34:08   but say like this many Apple transactions at this average self, you know, whatever the

00:34:13   data is. And they'll say it's like it's anonymized, we'll do things as parts of our privacy policy.

00:34:18   It doesn't mean that they're not selling data there. In fact, that's one of the, I mean,

00:34:22   I think people sometimes don't understand that even if you find a revenue model for

00:34:26   a company, for a product or a service that you're using, and say, oh, this is how they

00:34:30   make their money. Chances are that even if you find the primary way they make their money,

00:34:35   that's not the only way they make their money.

00:34:36   So many companies dealing data exchange.

00:34:39   Incremental revenue is the phrase that always got thrown around at IDG, and it's just like,

00:34:43   this is how businesses work, is okay, we have, or I should say a lot of businesses work is,

00:34:48   alright, we make a million dollars, yay, but you know what, if we did this other thing,

00:34:53   this person has come to us and said they'll write us a check for $100,000 to do to give

00:34:57   them some data and we can fit it in our privacy policy. So let's do that. And so at IDG it

00:35:03   was things like list rental where you sign up and pay back in the day you pay $25 or

00:35:10   $30 to get a year of the magazine sent to you in your mailbox. And guess what happens?

00:35:16   Anybody who's subscribed to a magazine knows this. Like you start getting junk mail to

00:35:23   the person who subscribed to that magazine. Well how does that happen? It's like magazine

00:35:27   One of their incremental revenue sources was selling their mailing lists to people who

00:35:32   wanted to send mail to people. They would be like, "Oh, your audience is fairly affluent.

00:35:36   I mean, you'd start marketing. Look at how affluent our audience is. These people have

00:35:40   a lot of money and they're very tech-forward. You want to market to them." And sometimes

00:35:43   that was things like the Mac catalog or something like that, where it was totally legit, like

00:35:49   a perfect fit. But sometimes it's just like Condé Nast wants to find new subscribers

00:35:55   for Condé Nast Traveler and they buy a bunch of magazine lists and send them subscription

00:36:00   offers. And that like happened all the time. And then in the modern context, email lists

00:36:05   work the same way where there's email list rental where you get paid to spam your own

00:36:10   customers with an ad for someone else. And is that the core business? No, but still,

00:36:18   it takes a very particular kind of principled business person who is thinking about the

00:36:24   big picture, which the danger is the person who's making these decisions is not the

00:36:29   CEO thinking about the big picture, it's a salesperson who's got a revenue target

00:36:34   to hit. And they look and they say, "Oh, I can get an easy $100,000 right here, so

00:36:39   let's do it." And it takes a big person to say, "You know what? We're selling out

00:36:44   our customers. I'd rather turn that money away and not sell out our customers," because

00:36:51   you're turning away revenue for your business.

00:36:54   And if your business is struggling even a little

00:36:56   or has pressure from investors to grow

00:36:58   or any number of reasons why,

00:37:01   you make that calculation and say, "Nah, it's fine."

00:37:04   Right?

00:37:05   And you sell out your customers.

00:37:09   It happens all the time.

00:37:11   - I think it's worth just pointing out at this stage

00:37:13   that neither of us like this

00:37:15   or think that this is necessarily

00:37:17   the way the world should work.

00:37:19   - No, it's gross.

00:37:20   do we want to apply these practices to the businesses we both run, but I think we've

00:37:25   just both been in the corporate world enough to know that it really does happen, right?

00:37:30   We've seen some things. We've seen some terrible things, you know, and/or had to be involved

00:37:36   in them in some way, right? Because it was the way that things were done.

00:37:41   Exactly. So I guess, you know, what's the lesson here? I think the lesson is to be aware,

00:37:49   Like you said, be aware of the trade-offs that you think you're probably making. Be

00:37:54   savvy. Don't take something for nothing. Think of, think of what is happening behind the

00:38:01   scenes. Be, you know, be aware of it. And sometimes I would say sometimes the trade-off

00:38:07   is going to be what you're willing to do. Like I, I have my domain in Gmail, you know,

00:38:14   Google apps, which actually is a paid service now.

00:38:18   It's not, it used to be like a freebie thing,

00:38:20   but it's like a paid service now, Google apps is.

00:38:22   They don't call it that. - That's double dipping,

00:38:24   right, like from Google, 'cause you pay them,

00:38:26   but they're still looking at all their data.

00:38:28   - Yeah, well, that's true.

00:38:28   There's still some, although I don't know

00:38:31   what the security differences are,

00:38:32   but yeah, basically, I'm sure it's true.

00:38:33   - I'm sure it's different, but like, they're not like,

00:38:35   oh, we won't pay any attention to that anymore.

00:38:37   - But I'm kinda okay with that

00:38:39   because the Google services are very good

00:38:43   And I am willing, and also I have to say, I believe that Google's model is the,

00:38:49   the stuff that they're doing is very much like looking at stuff in context

00:38:55   in order to serve ads or in different places to me because ads is their

00:39:00   business. Would I consider switching if I got a clearer signal that Google

00:39:06   is actually like trawling through my archive and selling the data?

00:39:12   yeah I would consider it. I would consider the trade-off. All you can do,

00:39:16   everybody makes their own decision for different reasons, but you got to be

00:39:19   try to be savvy about it. Consider what the trade-offs are and

00:39:24   and then maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe anonymizing your, you know, your receipt

00:39:27   data in exchange for this convenience

00:39:30   service is not a big deal. That's fine, but the awareness of who have

00:39:34   you authorized to look at your email inbox, who have you authorized to

00:39:38   put to look at your Twitter followers list or post on your Twitter account.

00:39:42   Just maybe look, maybe check and see.

00:39:44   You might be surprised and it's worth thinking about.

00:39:48   It's just worth thinking about because this is the reality is there are whole

00:39:52   businesses, many of them that this is what they do.

00:39:55   This is part of the economy of, of technology right now.

00:39:59   And I do think it's dangerous.

00:40:00   I saw the tweet, I can't remember who it might've been.

00:40:02   Kara Swisher tweeted about like, watch out Silicon Valley.

00:40:06   Cause this kind of stuff is the thing that is going to make, turn the public

00:40:11   against you and turn the government against you. And right now, honestly, this is the

00:40:19   sort of thing that's more likely to happen in the EU than in the US because the EU has

00:40:23   much more sort of like business regulation stuff that they are concerned with than the

00:40:27   US is. But if it becomes politically expedient because people are up in arms about privacy

00:40:32   breaches and reselling of consumer data, if it becomes politically expedient for that

00:40:37   to be a quick win for politicians, it could happen and it could really blast a lot of

00:40:44   tech industry business models. So it's, this is the world we live in and it's something

00:40:48   to be aware of.

00:40:50   One last point on this. Me and you have spent so much time talking about the fact that we

00:40:54   don't want big podcast data, right? You know, like we spent all this time talking about

00:41:00   the fact that we don't want this tracking information. We don't want the information

00:41:05   about what people are listening to, where they,

00:41:07   you know, we don't want any of that.

00:41:08   This is why, because we know what that looks like.

00:41:13   - Yeah, this is the next step, yeah.

00:41:14   - And the companies that are asking for this,

00:41:16   where does their money come from?

00:41:19   Venture capital.

00:41:19   - Yeah, this is all, this is all like, yeah,

00:41:23   find other ways to monetize everybody.

00:41:27   Monetize is a key word, I've never liked that word,

00:41:30   and since the very beginning, the way I describe it is,

00:41:32   The word monetize to me always invokes this image,

00:41:37   which is, it's almost like from a cartoon.

00:41:40   It's a human being standing somewhere looking around,

00:41:43   just a generic human being.

00:41:45   And like a wizard or something comes out with a magic wand

00:41:49   with, you know, like a little stick with a,

00:41:50   like a star on the end and goes bing,

00:41:54   and that person turns into a pile of money.

00:41:56   Bad for the person, great for the wizard

00:41:59   'cause the wizard's got money now.

00:42:01   That's monetizing.

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00:44:15   Linking

00:44:22   you can do this anyone can do this you can do this if you are just tweeting

00:44:27   about link

00:44:28   tweeting about applications you can add a field link to them or if you write about them like

00:44:32   JSON or if you have show notes like we do you can add a tag

00:44:35   to a link that you put in about an iOS app or an app

00:44:38   that's on any of Apple's app stores or basically any of their products on any

00:44:42   of their stores including the iTunes store

00:44:44   and what happens if somebody follows that link and they buy the product

00:44:48   you get a cut of the purchase price

00:44:51   from Apple's end. So they give you part of their cut. It used to be 7% of the purchase

00:44:57   price, right? So they give you 7% back. So that's great.

00:45:01   Apple announced a couple of days ago that on May 1st, which is basically a week away,

00:45:07   they're going to be changing the affiliate program and they're going to be cutting the

00:45:10   percentage that an affiliate linker gets from the purchase price from 7% to 2.5%. This is

00:45:19   pretty big news for people, especially in the world of writing about apps on the web.

00:45:26   Yeah, it's writing about apps and I would say also people who built services and I'm

00:45:37   thinking of like Arnold Kim who built App Shopper and Touch Arcade building sites that

00:45:43   include like databases and things and their business model, they have ads, I think, but

00:45:49   their business model is fed in large part by affiliate revenue. You buy an app based

00:45:55   on a link that they included, they get a cut that comes out of Apple's percentage. And

00:46:01   likewise with, I mean, this is kind of like Wirecutter does this with Amazon primarily,

00:46:06   where they get a percentage of Amazon's sales for all the referral traffic. And the deal

00:46:12   there is basically like we are driving sales to your site and you give us a kickback. But

00:46:18   in this case it's a blanket deal and they've changed the terms with very little warning.

00:46:25   So I understand why Apple might do it in the sense that it's money that they put back in

00:46:30   their pocket and they must figure that the people who are sending them traffic probably

00:46:37   don't deserve that much money. They don't need it. If the traffic drops off a little

00:46:42   bit, it will still be worth it for them to reclaim that money. And possibly that they'll

00:46:48   still keep doing it even at the lower percentage, so why not lower it? But it's really tough

00:46:54   for everybody else, right? Like app developers may suffer because their apps may not necessarily

00:46:59   be as visible in all of these places outside of the app store that currently highlight

00:47:03   Like, if you imagine if Federico at MacStory says,

00:47:07   he's not gonna do this 'cause this is like his favorite thing,

00:47:10   but say we're gonna cut back on our app coverage

00:47:12   because we can't make money at it anymore.

00:47:14   We have to shift to cover more hardware products

00:47:16   because the Amazon deal is better.

00:47:18   Then those app developers who would have gotten featured on MacStories just won't.

00:47:22   And of course for people like Federico or Arnold Kim

00:47:25   or John Voorhees who builds an app that builds affiliate links, right?

00:47:30   It's gonna hurt them.

00:47:32   I feel like the only company that doesn't get hurt here is Apple, because Apple's just

00:47:36   walking away with more cash.

00:47:40   I don't understand why, really, they've done it.

00:47:44   You mentioned some of the people there.

00:47:45   I pulled in some interesting quotes that I saw.

00:47:48   I saw René at iMore saying that it's more than a 50% cut in revenue for sites or developers

00:47:54   that have successful affiliate initiatives.

00:47:58   mentioned especially those trying to reduce ads on their site and something I

00:48:03   saw from Federico you know I mentioned at the start that the cut was on Apple's

00:48:07   part you know the developers don't make any more money by this change that Apple

00:48:12   is just reducing their car and it does feel like there are gonna be a bunch of

00:48:16   people that are gonna feel an effect from this and it didn't make me think as

00:48:21   well you know things like seems like the business of writing about these types of

00:48:27   things online is getting harder and harder. Like the deck shut down recently

00:48:30   and this is another thing. Like if you were thinking like okay maybe advertising

00:48:35   isn't doing that well anymore but at least people are buying the apps from my

00:48:39   codes and that makes me a few hundred dollars a month, a few thousand dollars a

00:48:42   month or whatever it might be depending on the size of your publication. I mean

00:48:47   this is just making it harder and harder. Like it's a huge amount of money to

00:48:52   change in an incredibly short timescale.

00:48:55   - Yeah, again, I'm gonna come back to it again.

00:48:59   I'm not saying that I'm advocating this,

00:49:02   but I'm trying to understand what Apple is doing here.

00:49:05   I feel like somebody at Apple looked at this and said,

00:49:07   why are we giving them this big percentage?

00:49:10   One, they're probably gonna do it anyway.

00:49:11   And even if they don't,

00:49:12   do we really think that this drives enough traffic?

00:49:15   And they've got the stats, like, what does this drive?

00:49:18   Is it really worth giving people this money?

00:49:21   are they going to stop? What if they do? Do we care? And basically walk away and my guess

00:49:26   is say, they're not going to stop and we get the money back. So let's do it. But it comes

00:49:31   from a position of confidence. Like we don't need them. We don't need to give them this

00:49:36   amount of money. And this is a trend, right? Like Amazon hasn't cut their fees at the base

00:49:41   rate but Amazon recently cut their fees at the higher volumes. It used to be that higher

00:49:46   volumes would get higher percentages and I believe that they've knocked that out, which

00:49:50   has hurt people who rely on Amazon fees too, is my understanding. It's tough because the

00:49:54   idea here is there's a symbiotic relationship that Amazon or Apple is getting their stuff

00:50:00   out of their own, you know, silo and into the wider internet, which is good to get those

00:50:06   products in front of people who might not come into their little silos. And in exchange

00:50:11   for motivating people to make that effort, people get a kickback if there are sales and

00:50:17   people make a living doing that. I mean, I have both affiliate things for six colors.

00:50:23   I wouldn't say I make a living at it. I get some nice, I wouldn't even say nice, I get

00:50:28   some money from it. It's nothing huge. It will not make or break me for it to disappear.

00:50:32   I'm fortunate in that way. So I kind of look at this more as an observer. I kind of don't

00:50:37   care what happens if my affiliate revenue just vanished tomorrow.

00:50:40   It's a minor frustration for you, right?

00:50:42   I wouldn't even say I'm frustrated. I put the stuff there because it seems like a good

00:50:46   practice to do that. Like if somebody's going to buy a USB podcasting microphone from my

00:50:52   article, then, and I can get money back for that and it's a product that I recommend,

00:50:59   why not? But it's not my business model. If I was doing, but for some sites it is, like

00:51:04   for some sites writing about one reason why you write about apps is for the affiliate

00:51:09   kickback. Why you write about hardware stuff is for the affiliate kickback. And that like

00:51:16   helps you do your job and it's not, I don't think it's sleazy if you're writing about

00:51:20   products intentionally with good content and the links that you would put in there anyway

00:51:24   have affiliate links. There are also sites that have built up, you know, whole databases

00:51:29   like Touch Arcade and App Shopper and the whole point there is we built a database,

00:51:35   it's all affiliated, we added on top of it, but this is how we survive. I don't know,

00:51:42   an interesting calculation that Apple made and it has fallout for everybody except probably

00:51:48   Apple.

00:51:49   There's always a why. There has to be a why. And one why that I've heard people considering

00:51:57   is that could this be Apple starting to put the wheels in motion for a potential reduction

00:52:03   to their developer cut overall? Maybe taking the 30% cut down to 20% or 15% or something

00:52:10   Now what do you think about that potential option here or potential reason for why this

00:52:14   might be occurring?

00:52:15   It's possible.

00:52:16   I mean, it's also possible that this is a counterbalancing of their cut on the subscription

00:52:21   revenue that they've already done.

00:52:23   The question would be why would Apple do the reduction in their App Store cut?

00:52:28   What would be the motivation there?

00:52:30   Are they concerned about App Store economics and that think that taking 20% instead of

00:52:35   30% might bolster app development?

00:52:38   I'm skeptical that they would think that.

00:52:41   - Why?

00:52:41   - Well, I mean if you're--

00:52:42   - I mean it would, right?

00:52:43   Like it would be a good sign.

00:52:45   - First off, if you're Apple, you're riding high,

00:52:48   do you really think, I mean, maybe you could argue

00:52:50   that you don't need to take that money from the developers.

00:52:54   It's gone so well that you don't need to give it back

00:52:56   to them, do you really think though that the App Store,

00:52:59   any economic problems people have developing apps

00:53:01   in the App Store will be cured

00:53:02   by taking a little bit less of a cut?

00:53:04   Is that really the problem with the App Store?

00:53:07   I don't think it is.

00:53:09   So you throw a little money back in the pool.

00:53:11   I think that would be very generous if Apple did that.

00:53:13   Apple doesn't need that money.

00:53:15   At the same time, that's services revenue.

00:53:17   Apple really wants to say, look at our services revenue.

00:53:21   So to cut that number, you're throwing that portion.

00:53:24   It's not true for,

00:53:26   none of this is actually true for the other parts

00:53:28   of the iTunes store businesses,

00:53:30   but it's just for app referrals.

00:53:33   So, you know, I don't know.

00:53:35   I think they're motivated to keep it.

00:53:38   And in fact, you could argue that this is all just

00:53:40   to bolster services revenue by cutting those kickbacks.

00:53:44   - I don't like it

00:53:45   because I can see people being affected by it, right?

00:53:48   - That's the truth of it, right?

00:53:49   Is that this may be something that makes sense

00:53:51   from an Apple perspective,

00:53:52   but like any business decision like this, who gets hurt?

00:53:56   Like the decider is probably not the one

00:53:59   that's gonna get hurt.

00:54:00   But everybody else who's come to rely on it,

00:54:03   they're gonna get hurt.

00:54:04   So we may understand reasons or can guess some reasons,

00:54:07   but we know the people who will be impacted.

00:54:10   And in the long run, you could really argue

00:54:12   like Apple is making a calculation.

00:54:16   They could be wrong, right?

00:54:18   They could be calculating that it doesn't matter.

00:54:23   But if you demotivate people to link to the app store,

00:54:26   then maybe that does have a long-term effect.

00:54:30   Maybe that does hurt.

00:54:31   And this is my feeling.

00:54:31   maybe that hurts third-party developers. Not Apple per se, but it hurts third-party developers to not

00:54:38   have as much of a presence on the wider internet. Or maybe not. The fact that the affiliate program

00:54:45   exists is a thing that shows that it works. This program exists because this is a thing that you do,

00:54:53   right? This program exists because the fact that this program exists increases the amount of people

00:55:00   that will link to the App Store. Not having those or having people go away, that's not a good thing

00:55:09   for the developer at the other end. Like, this is a funnel.

00:55:13   - Demotivates people to write about the App Store, demotivates people to build sites

00:55:17   whose purpose is to drive people to the App Store. And Apple has obviously decided that it's not as

00:55:23   important as it was to do those things. - This is one of those things, one of the

00:55:29   them many many many times where Apple's desire for secrecy is frustrating when

00:55:39   really I don't know if they need to be. Just tell us why you're doing it.

00:55:42   Like this isn't because of the new iPhone right? Like it's nothing to do

00:55:48   with that right? And it would be just it would be interesting to see why

00:55:53   they're doing it. If it plays into something else I wish they would do them

00:55:56   more at the same time, right? Like if this is because of the a potential that

00:56:02   they're gonna cut, let's just imagine that they're gonna cut this down, right?

00:56:05   They're gonna cut this, sorry, the developer cut down, then it'd be great to say

00:56:09   look we're doing this and we're also doing this at the same time. Because

00:56:12   otherwise all it is is it does that thing that we hate to think about where

00:56:15   Apple's this big company that likes to make a lot of money, where it could just

00:56:19   be that they want to increase the services revenue by half a percent and

00:56:22   and this is a way to do that. Yep. Self-driving cars is another thing. So

00:56:30   there's been a couple of stories in the past week which categorically say that

00:56:37   Apple is still working on a car project like there's no way to avoid it anymore

00:56:41   because of some of the things that you have to do. So the California DMV, the

00:56:46   Department of Motor Vehicles, has granted Apple clearance for trials of autonomous

00:56:50   driving technology and public roads. These tests will begin with new software being used

00:56:55   inside of existing vehicles. Apple's test cars will have a person behind the wheel to

00:56:59   monitor the testing at all times. The California permit covers three 2015 Lexus RX450H SUVs

00:57:08   and six particular drivers, the DMV said. This is one of those things where this isn't

00:57:14   a rumor, this isn't a leak. This is like in black and white on the Department of Motor

00:57:19   vehicle's website, it is like a permit. This is very reminiscent of me to FCC stuff, right?

00:57:25   Things that leaked or used to get leaked from the FCC because there's just legal things

00:57:31   you have to go through.

00:57:32   Well, they're not even leaked. They're like public things you need to file. And so Apple,

00:57:38   you know, Apple at a certain point can't be coy, really. Can't Stonewall and deny everything.

00:57:46   They can not talk about it, sure, but like this is not a...

00:57:53   Maybe this doesn't matter, but for those who would say, "Well, it's just a rumor.

00:57:56   The rumor, the so-called Project Titan, the rumor of the Apple car," all of those things,

00:58:00   right?

00:58:01   Well, we can say for sure Apple is testing autonomous vehicle technology in California

00:58:06   or has the intention of testing autonomous vehicle technology, period, because they filed

00:58:11   the paperwork.

00:58:12   It's done.

00:58:13   That's a fact.

00:58:15   those who didn't necessarily believe what they were reading, those stories were accurate

00:58:20   at least to a certain degree because this is real. And we don't know anything about

00:58:27   the details in terms of what they're doing, what their strategy is, what the technology

00:58:36   is that they're testing. We don't know any of that, but we do know that it's really going

00:58:41   to happen or at least Apple plans on it happening enough to have applied.

00:58:47   So Business Insider then obtained some of Apple's documentation for this via a public

00:58:52   records request. It's hilarious to me that this information is getting out. So they got

00:58:59   some documentation that Apple I think had given to the DMV to detail what they were

00:59:03   going to be doing and how they were going to be training people. So these documents

00:59:06   show off internal testing and training documentation guides that Apple put together for their people

00:59:14   that are going to be working on this project. The system itself is currently called the

00:59:18   Apple Automation System. Weirdly, they detail that the cars that will be used for this feature

00:59:26   are going to be having Logitech gaming steering wheels and pedals put inside them to simulate

00:59:35   the feeling of driving when the person has to take control. So these cars are pretty

00:59:40   heavily modified to the point where they're putting gaming hardware inside of them. So

00:59:46   this isn't a rumour anymore. Apple is working on a self driving car project. This isn't

00:59:54   a leak from Mark Gurman anymore, like this is categorical. Whether this is ever something

01:00:00   that meets the market, we're not sure, we're not going to know that until either it does

01:00:05   or we never hear about it again, but this is a clear sign that Apple is doing something

01:00:11   in this space. So let's assume that they're not building a car, right, which is what we've

01:00:16   heard, that they were building a car but now they're not building a car. Why would Apple

01:00:22   be building self-driving car technology? What is the point of this? Why would a car company

01:00:29   want Apple's technology? Why do Apple feel the desire to create this technology? And

01:00:36   why would a consumer choose a car that has Apple's self-driving car technology over Volvos?

01:00:41   Good questions, Myke. And this is all I have, right? I don't think

01:00:47   there are any answers. Yeah, I don't have any answers. I was thinking

01:00:50   like, "Well, how do I answer this?" And the answer is, "I don't have the answers."

01:00:53   These are all things we've talked about before, like you said, that are out there, which is,

01:00:58   is Apple doing here? And I keep coming back, my touchstone in all of this is, you're Apple,

01:01:06   you've got lots and lots of money, you know you're great at some things in technology,

01:01:12   you are making bets for the future, just like Google is, just like everybody should be who's

01:01:16   got lots and lots of cash and is a tech company because you know otherwise if you stay still

01:01:20   you will be replaced. And you make some bets. And you look at the car industry and you say

01:01:24   this is ripe for change on so many different levels. The electrification of the fleet is

01:01:31   going to happen. The introduction of self-driving technology, or at least intelligent assist

01:01:37   technology, is going to happen to what degree is debatable. So why not place a bet there?

01:01:43   That's stuff we know. So that's great. I understand why they're exploring this. The next step

01:01:52   is the hardest one for both of us to conceive of,

01:01:54   and for a lot of people to conceive of,

01:01:55   which is one, is Apple gonna make their own car?

01:01:59   Which it seems like they were investigating

01:02:00   and then they backed off of,

01:02:01   although it's unclear whether they backed off on it

01:02:03   because they're not,

01:02:05   or because they wouldn't need to worry about it for so long

01:02:08   that there was no point in working on it in the meantime,

01:02:11   when they weren't sure if they were gonna go that way.

01:02:14   But step two is the really weird one, right?

01:02:16   Which is, is Apple going to build car tech

01:02:21   that is then what licensed by car makers to use as their onboard systems are they

01:02:28   going to be like the android of cars because that's not very apple to be like

01:02:34   lots of car makers have the apple car in it that's not very apple that's not

01:02:38   like their business model it's not something they've ever done i mean that

01:02:43   is what carplay is but carplay is an apple carplay is an apple product that

01:02:48   that you plug into your car, but this is like gonna have to be a whole built into every

01:02:52   car thing, which is different. I mean, like, it's more like Apple TV exists, but there

01:02:58   don't exist TVs with Apple TV built inside of it, right?

01:03:03   TV is a great point here, right? Apple can't get TV companies, cable companies, to put

01:03:10   their content on Apple's box. How are they going to get car companies to accept their

01:03:15   operating system. The difference is, in this case, Apple is the content provider. In this

01:03:21   case, Apple is the one that says, "We've got the tech. We're great. You, car company, you

01:03:29   stink. You're bad at this. We've used your cars. They're awful. We've got this super

01:03:34   sweet thing. Let's make a deal." That's what they can say. And I think that people would

01:03:38   be maybe motivated to do that, although there is going to be a whole not-inventored-here

01:03:42   thing where it's like, "But we've got a whole team that's been working on self-driving tech

01:03:45   for the last 10 years, we're just going to use that. And Apple's going to say, "It's

01:03:50   worse than ours. Just fire those people and buy our system." That's what they're going

01:03:54   to say. Again, I have a hard time picturing that. I have a hard time picturing Apple making

01:04:00   their own cars. I floated a while ago the scenario that maybe this is something where

01:04:04   Apple eventually makes a strategic investment in a car company, and they work jointly on

01:04:12   a new line of cars that has Apple tech in it, but it's like a joint venture of, you

01:04:20   know, of Apple and GM or Apple and Volkswagen or whoever it is, Apple and Nissan make some

01:04:28   company they make a deal, there's a strategic investment, Apple doesn't necessarily buy

01:04:32   them out, but they buy a big percentage that like we're committed to this, we're going

01:04:36   to create a line. That's the best I've come up with yet, and I'm not an expert on car

01:04:40   So I don't know if that's plausible or not, but like that idea of what if we didn't buy a car company,

01:04:47   but we weren't all also like licensing it out to everybody.

01:04:50   And then Apple would get a say in what the cars were and they would be viewed as special, at least at the start.

01:04:56   And then maybe it expands from there. That's the best guess I have.

01:04:59   But I mean, I don't know. It's weird, but I understand their impulse to do it and I'm intrigued by it.

01:05:06   I just am still having a hard time seeing exactly what the endgame is, and maybe Apple is too.

01:05:11   I mean, maybe that was the whole thing that happened when they scaled back Project Titan,

01:05:15   was Apple just saying, "It's too soon. Let's slow this down. We need to get our tech right.

01:05:22   The other stuff can wait, and we'll either do it later or we'll find somebody to do it for us,

01:05:27   but that's not our area of expertise, so we're going to leave it for now and figure it out later,

01:05:32   after we know whether this is a thing or not." And that's, you know, why they're out there with

01:05:36   with their Lexus SUVs.

01:05:39   - We have the same questions.

01:05:41   We don't have any new answers.

01:05:42   - No.

01:05:43   - We have the same predictions,

01:05:46   but what we do have now is more fact.

01:05:48   - And you know what this is also gonna do?

01:05:50   This is gonna create a whole new level of stories

01:05:54   on the internet where people take pictures of Apple Maps,

01:05:57   mapping vehicles in California and say,

01:05:59   "Is this the self-driving car?"

01:06:01   Because now we know that they're gonna be able

01:06:03   to be on public roads,

01:06:04   which means that everybody's gonna freak out

01:06:05   be like, "Oh, they're on public roads!" And we know what the cars are. And we do know,

01:06:10   yeah, only if you see a 2015 Lexus RX 450 H SUV. You've got to look at it. Logitech

01:06:17   steering wheel. It'll probably have a huge Apple logo on the side, right? Like, Apple

01:06:22   on one side and on the other side it'll say, "Warning, Apple self-driving car." Right?

01:06:26   Totally. It probably will, you know, at least have something, right? I can't imagine, I

01:06:33   haven't looked into it but I can't imagine these cars just drive around unmarked.

01:06:37   No I think they do. Oh really?

01:06:39   I think they do. I guess that's probably for the best actually,

01:06:42   right, so people don't freak out around them when maybe they shouldn't have to.

01:06:46   Nothing makes me more nervous than when I'm behind a car on the freeway that has a student

01:06:50   driver sign in it. Mmm.

01:06:52   That scares me. So maybe you don't want robot student.

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01:08:04   this show and Relay FM.

01:08:07   Time for some Ask Upgrade.

01:08:12   Nate asked, do you think

01:08:20   the iOS 11 will introduce the option to make App Store and iTunes purchases via Apple Pay?

01:08:28   I don't know what made me think of this recently.

01:08:30   I think, you know what it was?

01:08:31   I lost my cards.

01:08:32   I lost all my cards.

01:08:33   And I had to go, I got that annoying prompt in iTunes

01:08:37   where it was saying to me,

01:08:38   hey, you need to update your purchasing information.

01:08:42   And I went there and I was surprised by the fact

01:08:44   that I couldn't just choose Apple Pay.

01:08:46   Like I had to enter in my card information again.

01:08:49   Why can't it just use Apple Pay?

01:08:50   - I have a theory, which is that if Apple

01:08:55   has your credit card information direct

01:08:57   and charges you direct that it's better,

01:09:02   like a better price for them.

01:09:04   Like maybe the transaction fee is lower.

01:09:07   I'm not sure that's actually true.

01:09:09   It's also possible that it's just a complicated bit

01:09:11   of infrastructure and they don't wanna deal with it,

01:09:15   with changing it.

01:09:17   Like it's all working okay

01:09:18   and it's gonna be a lot of work to do it

01:09:20   or they're working on it and it's taking time.

01:09:23   I agree with you.

01:09:24   It would be way more convenient to have all of Apple stuff

01:09:26   be an Apple Pay, but that does not seem to have happened.

01:09:31   Also, can you do Apple Pay with subscriptions?

01:09:36   I don't know.

01:09:37   - I have no idea.

01:09:38   - Because basically the way it works now is,

01:09:41   is you put it the card on file and then when you buy

01:09:44   something, it's just like, yes, yes, buy it in Apple's UI,

01:09:48   instead of bringing up an Apple Pay sheet where you have to

01:09:50   pick a credit card and buy it.

01:09:51   So I think there's some simplicity to the idea of keeping

01:09:54   it on file at Apple.

01:09:56   So I'm sure they've got a reason.

01:09:58   As a user, it is annoying, right?

01:10:02   I just had that.

01:10:03   I had to change my credit card on an Apple site.

01:10:04   - Oh, I think you can,

01:10:05   because Memberful has Apple Pay, doesn't it?

01:10:08   - Yeah, oh, you're right.

01:10:09   - So you can do subscriptions via Apple Pay.

01:10:11   - You can.

01:10:12   So I don't know.

01:10:13   My guess is that it's either a technical issue

01:10:15   or it's a money issue that like, so, right?

01:10:18   So either it's hard to do and they may not have prioritized

01:10:21   it or they're working on it.

01:10:23   Or they ran the numbers and said,

01:10:25   "Oh, if we do Apple Pay for our own stuff, we'll lose millions of dollars." And they're

01:10:28   like, "Then let's not do that."

01:10:30   Brent asked, "How does Jason decide what articles to write for Six Colors versus MacWorld or

01:10:35   other places? Because you write all over the web, don't you?"

01:10:38   Yeah, well, not all over. I write weekly at MacWorld and sort of monthly at iMore.

01:10:43   Where were you writing before? PC's WinSuperSite?

01:10:45   Oh, WinSuperSite, yeah. That's right. They wanted somebody to explain Apple to PC guys.

01:10:50   What were the comments like on those articles, Jason?

01:10:54   - Yeah, I don't know.

01:10:56   It was nice of them to have me and they paid me

01:10:58   and that was great.

01:11:00   And I waited for them to not pay me anymore.

01:11:03   Because as a freelancer,

01:11:06   hey, it's great when they pay you for articles.

01:11:09   For Macworld, I have something in mind

01:11:12   for the kind of thing I write for Macworld.

01:11:15   And I don't know how to define it.

01:11:18   There's a certain kind of article.

01:11:20   Some of it is length.

01:11:21   Some of it is like, ideally it's 800 to 1000 words

01:11:24   kind of article, 'cause that feels like

01:11:26   that's the column length for Macworld.

01:11:27   That was always my column length at Macworld

01:11:29   back in the day when I was writing a monthly column.

01:11:32   And so I think about that length

01:11:34   and I think about like story topic.

01:11:35   Like there's certain stories that I'd be like,

01:11:37   I'm not gonna write that for Macworld, that's silly.

01:11:40   I want the Macworld piece to be like a certain kind of piece

01:11:44   and of a certain length.

01:11:45   And so I collect story ideas

01:11:47   in my little reminders list of story ideas.

01:11:49   and I don't--sometimes I'll put like Macworld question mark, like maybe this sounds like a Macworld piece.

01:11:55   And other times I'll sit down on like Tuesday afternoon and I'll look at it and I'll be like,

01:11:59   "Any of these ideas Macworld, you know, Macworld ideas? Could I do this as the Macworld column?"

01:12:04   And sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes the answer is no,

01:12:06   and I sit there and rack my brain to come up with what my story idea is.

01:12:09   So there is a length and a sort of topic that I do.

01:12:12   There are some pieces I write for six colors that could be Macworld pieces,

01:12:15   and I just decide, "Nah, I'm gonna write that for six colors instead," because, you know,

01:12:20   I also need to write things for six colors. For Imore, generally it's a little different in that

01:12:25   I talk to Serenity and I say, "Do you have any ideas, any prompts you want to give me?"

01:12:30   And she will usually come back with something, and that's fun because that is--and then I will

01:12:37   try to figure out what spin I could put on that to get something out of it. So it's a little,

01:12:42   yeah, a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

01:12:46   I feel like the Macworld pieces have a different tone of voice. Like, they still feel different

01:12:52   to the Six Colors stuff.

01:12:53   They are almost always written specifically with Macworld in mind. Not always, but almost

01:13:00   always. Every now and then, I will write something intending it to be for Six Colors, and I will

01:13:05   get to the end and think, "Oh, this has turned into a Macworld piece. I'm just going to send

01:13:10   to Suzy at Macworld. But that only happens like a couple of times a year. Most of the times I am

01:13:15   writing it for Macworld, you know, and thinking of that audience and thinking of the context of the,

01:13:23   you know, of a Jason Snell once a week column and, you know, it's so slightly different.

01:13:28   Steve asked, "If we ever get a new 4K Apple TV, do you think that Apple will give a multiple

01:13:36   Bluetooth headphone connection option. So I don't know if I see this feature specifically happening

01:13:43   or that Apple would even really promote it if they did because it seems like a super niche thing,

01:13:48   right? Multiple people can connect Bluetooth headphones to the Apple TV and listen together.

01:13:53   I can understand many situations in which this would be useful for people. I think of young

01:13:57   parents, right? Like the baby's sleeping, let's use headphones. Well, I can see these, makes sense,

01:14:04   But I just don't know if I see this feature. However, what I will say is I am very impressed

01:14:09   to learn about the ability to Bluetooth 5.0. Have you seen anything about Bluetooth 5.0

01:14:14   at all, Jason? I haven't.

01:14:16   So MKBHD put together a video about this because the Galaxy S8, which we were talking about

01:14:21   earlier, has Bluetooth 5.0 built into it. And one of the things, as well as like, better

01:14:27   data transfer, faster speeds, much improved range. It really is vastly better. One of

01:14:34   the things you can do with Bluetooth 5 is connect two audio devices at the same time

01:14:42   from one phone. MKBHD shows this, he connects two Bluetooth speakers to the S8 and they're

01:14:50   both playing the same thing at once. It's kind of cool.

01:14:55   So like you're saying that who needs Sonos, right?

01:14:58   You can have multiple speakers in your home playing the same audio source.

01:15:02   Well, yeah.

01:15:03   I mean, it simplifies it, right?

01:15:05   I am going to express skepticism that you could keep those things in sync over the long

01:15:10   run.

01:15:11   It's better for headphones, right?

01:15:12   Because they don't need to be exactly in sync, but your brain, beyond a certain bit of out

01:15:16   of sync, everything sounds weird.

01:15:17   Your brain tries to push them together and then at some point it gives up and says, "Nope,

01:15:21   I can't do it anymore."

01:15:22   So I'm skeptical of that.

01:15:24   is a slight difference between them at times and he says there are things you can do to

01:15:30   make it better but it is cool to see this technology starting right of course this is

01:15:35   the first time that this has been available.

01:15:38   And you know Apple did the engineering for the AirPods that even though they're not connected

01:15:41   to each other except wirelessly they are in sync.

01:15:47   So maybe Bluetooth 5 would make that even better I mean I have weird things sometimes

01:15:50   like if I just turn my head quickly like the AirPods get really upset and like they like

01:15:56   I lose it for just a millisecond. It's very strange. That's the one where I seem to have

01:16:00   it the most. It's like ah don't do that. I always find that really funny you know my

01:16:05   AirPods like no don't move too fast. I did have a thing on the airplane. I didn't want

01:16:12   to fall asleep with my AirPods in and was getting my my AirPods my cable ones with the

01:16:18   the lightning thing I was changing to those when I was sleepy because if I fall asleep

01:16:23   and like my head hits the seat the air pods coming out, the air pods coming out and it's

01:16:27   gone forever I've lost it in the airplane seat and that was kind of a funny thing on

01:16:32   my travels. Don't fall asleep if the air pods in you may lose them.

01:16:38   S Chan asked would you consider living overseas both of us because we are independent workers

01:16:44   that's something we would ever consider living overseas. It would be easier to do, right?

01:16:48   Like, we don't have an office that we have to go to. We work remotely with people. Like,

01:16:53   we could live overseas, I guess.

01:16:55   Yeah, but would you?

01:16:57   Maybe. I mean, it depends. Like, I had my dreams, you know, of moving to America. Who

01:17:03   knows though? Like, political climates are very strange these days.

01:17:06   Yes, all over.

01:17:08   So maybe if everything settles down again at some point, then maybe. But right now,

01:17:14   no, I wouldn't. However, there are times this year, like I actually think I'm going

01:17:19   to be in the US in multiple different cities for the entire month of August, and I will

01:17:23   effectively be living overseas during that time. I'm not going to be taking a month

01:17:27   off work. I'm going to be working. So that's going to be an interesting experience.

01:17:32   I, uh, yeah, I mean, I would consider it, but, uh, you know, all the usual, right.

01:17:39   Like it's easier, but it doesn't necessarily mean that we would do it.

01:17:42   Right.

01:17:42   Yeah.

01:17:43   I mean, yeah, exactly.

01:17:44   Cause okay.

01:17:45   We don't, we're independent workers, but we all, you know, we have family.

01:17:48   Right.

01:17:49   Like if I moved to Ireland, right.

01:17:53   First off let's, let's go over this.

01:17:55   You can't just move to another country and work.

01:17:58   they have to let you in and approve you and you have to

01:18:01   fill out paperwork and things like that. It's a complicated process

01:18:05   and they may not, and these days it's more complicated,

01:18:08   they may not let you in. They may not want you to be there. But if I were to go

01:18:12   there,

01:18:12   then what would happen? Like, okay, I'd pull my kids out of school,

01:18:16   my daughter's about to go to college, is she going to go to college back in the US?

01:18:19   And now she's a very long plane

01:18:21   ride away. My son is going to have to go to a different school.

01:18:26   It also means that I'm now like a 12 hour flight away

01:18:31   from my mother who is in her late 70s,

01:18:35   my, you know, away from my wife's parents.

01:18:40   There's so much like, it's very hard to do that,

01:18:45   I guess is what I'm saying.

01:18:46   And so while it's an interesting thing to think about,

01:18:50   I think it's unlikely.

01:18:52   And I happen to live in a gigantic country too.

01:18:55   So like I probably wouldn't move to Ohio either, right?

01:19:00   Because that would put me far away from my mom

01:19:04   and from my wife's parents.

01:19:06   And that would be a long way to go too,

01:19:09   even though it's in the same country.

01:19:10   So I do think about when my kids are out of the house,

01:19:14   if I might move somewhere else in the US, it's possible,

01:19:17   but it's probably a lot less likely

01:19:19   that I would move overseas just because it would be very,

01:19:22   from San Francisco, very, very, very far away

01:19:24   from everybody in my family. And that is just very complicated. I have friends who are English

01:19:30   who keep having to fly back because of horrible things happening medically to their parents.

01:19:34   And it's rough to, you know, to drop everything and fly 10 hours, 12 hours to get to a sick

01:19:42   parent.

01:19:43   Gary asks, "Are there any local or UK-focused apps like Yelp or Google Maps that you recommend

01:19:50   for people travelling to London. So one, I recommend Google Maps and Yelp. Yelp and Google

01:19:57   Maps are not US only. You can get all of the recommendations you would get in the US for

01:20:03   those here. All of the stuff is in there, you can get that. I also would recommend Foursquare,

01:20:10   especially for London. It's very good. Foursquare ratings are very good in London, recommendations

01:20:13   are very good in London. We use it all the time. So you can use the ones that you're

01:20:17   used to using, London is a major city enough that it will have as good information as you

01:20:22   might get in somewhere like New York or San Francisco in all these applications.

01:20:27   Google Maps and Open4 Square are great for London recommendations.

01:20:32   And Seth asked today "Why can't I buy a neon Nintendo Switch in any retail store or Amazon?

01:20:37   I've been looking regularly, am I missing something?"

01:20:40   In a nutshell, Nintendo is selling more than they expected they were going to sell.

01:20:47   You can see this in the fact that they have said that they have changed their production

01:20:50   amounts that they are making in their first year. The Switch has been more popular than

01:20:54   Nintendo expected. It's like any big product right? When a new iPhone comes out you either

01:21:00   get it immediately or you wait a while because companies forecast and things happen and then

01:21:05   maybe you can't get it. I recommend there is a link I'll put in the

01:21:09   show notes. I stock now, I heard about this in ATP and I've recommended it to some friends,

01:21:13   I know some people that have been able to use this service as a way to see.

01:21:17   I think this is in the US or maybe outside of the US as well.

01:21:21   Yeah, I can actually see they have UK information on here too.

01:21:26   It can show you current stock information is given to you, given to them by retail

01:21:31   outlets as to where stock is.

01:21:33   It doesn't necessarily mean there is one there.

01:21:35   I had a friend who looked at it.

01:21:37   The information was there. It said that they had units.

01:21:39   They went to the store and they were like, yeah, we had them this morning.

01:21:42   right like it's not it's not live data

01:21:44   yeah a lot of stories update at the end of the day. So, you know, buyer beware but it is possible and

01:21:52   look just quite frankly

01:21:53   very popular system right now it's a popular piece of technology and

01:21:57   you're not missing anything you missed the pre-order window that's what you missed

01:22:02   I'm gonna wind us back for a moment for a little real-time follow-up

01:22:06   trademark John Sarachisa. I think that's Casey, I think Casey came up with a real-time follow-up.

01:22:11   - All right, okay, Casey Liss, this one's for you.

01:22:14   In our chat room, we need to define

01:22:19   before we get an avalanche of email overseas.

01:22:21   - Right, okay.

01:22:22   - Because it's very important that,

01:22:23   I said from San Francisco, it's hard to think of any place

01:22:27   that's overseas that isn't far away.

01:22:29   And somebody in the chat room, David Schaub,

01:22:31   in the chat room said, "Well, what about Vancouver?"

01:22:33   And it's like, overseas to me implies traveling overseas

01:22:38   to get someplace else.

01:22:39   I can drive to Vancouver.

01:22:41   So while that would be moving to a different country,

01:22:44   and Vancouver is lovely,

01:22:45   I would just be able to drive there.

01:22:48   Mexico, I can drive there.

01:22:50   I guess technically I could drive to all of the Americas,

01:22:53   although I probably wouldn't want to.

01:22:55   - I mean technically you can drive anywhere, right?

01:22:57   But you might also be getting on a boat.

01:23:00   - Well, then I'm not driving though, then I'm on a boat.

01:23:02   Boat or not, that's a new debating podcast that we can have.

01:23:05   So, but Hawaii would be overseas.

01:23:08   I could live in Hawaii maybe,

01:23:09   But again, then I would be five, six hours

01:23:12   from all of my family and that would be hard.

01:23:13   So anyway, that's overseas as a way to refer

01:23:18   to international travel or living is an interesting term.

01:23:23   But since you live on an island and I live in America,

01:23:29   it's not a bad term to use for us,

01:23:31   but it's a weird term to use

01:23:33   because it may not mean what you think it means.

01:23:37   That's all.

01:23:38   Alright so we have more today. We have Myke at the Movies.

01:23:42   We do. We can talk about Blade Runner.

01:23:44   But before we do, let's thank our final sponsor for this week's show and that's

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01:26:12   Alright so it is Myke at the Movies time and today we are talking about Blade Runner. Now

01:26:19   Blade Runner. Now, this, Myke, at the Movies is unique for a bunch of different ways. Okay.

01:26:29   Number one, you didn't want to do this one. It's fine. It's fine. I thought it was a

01:26:35   weird choice, but it's a very famous movie. By all rights, we should probably have done

01:26:39   Aliens since we did Alien. But I needed a break from the scariness. And I know many

01:26:46   people told me that Aliens is very different but I just needed a movie that wasn't the

01:26:50   Alien movie. So that's number one, that's part number one.

01:26:55   Number two is I've never had a movie in the movies where multiple people felt the need

01:27:00   to warn me about the movie in certain ways. Like people thinking that I wasn't going to

01:27:08   like it and that they were maybe trying to talk me out of it and saying that "Oh no,

01:27:13   don't watch this version, watch that version,

01:27:15   watch this version, type thing.

01:27:17   So people were tweeting at me like this.

01:27:19   John Siracusa didn't want me to watch it.

01:27:21   I saw him, he was in London.

01:27:23   We had dinner, which was fantastic,

01:27:25   and he told me he didn't want me to watch the movie,

01:27:29   'cause he didn't think I would like it, and he loves it.

01:27:32   And I was very dead set on wanting to watch

01:27:38   just the regular edition of the movie.

01:27:41   the one with the Harrison Ford voiceover stuff and everything.

01:27:46   I wanted to watch the standard version of this movie.

01:27:49   I didn't want to direct his car or anything like that.

01:27:51   I wanted to watch that movie, like the original movie,

01:27:54   because this was the one that for whatever reason

01:27:56   was put out, this is the one that people latched onto.

01:28:00   I wanted to watch it, so that was what we chose.

01:28:02   It's also unique because this is the first movie

01:28:06   for my, the movies that I have watched on a plane

01:28:10   and in more than one sitting.

01:28:12   - Okay.

01:28:13   - Because I misjudged when I started watching the movie

01:28:16   and we had to land and then I had to pick it up

01:28:19   on the plane ride home.

01:28:21   - Ah, I see.

01:28:22   - So this is unique for many ways.

01:28:24   So I will do in my standard format

01:28:28   that I have created for myself,

01:28:30   would you like to know what I thought about this movie

01:28:32   before I watched it?

01:28:33   - Yes, I would.

01:28:34   - So I believed that Blade Runner

01:28:37   was a film noir style detective story, which I guess I was kind of right about. I mean,

01:28:43   I think that's kind of where they went with it, right?

01:28:45   Absolutely.

01:28:46   It's not black and white, but it's a lot of those tropes. They may as well have said at

01:28:50   one point, "she had legs from here to there." It was kind of that style, right? That you

01:28:55   see in Who Framed Roger Rabbit and whatever. And I knew that it was a cult classic is maybe

01:29:04   the wrong term because it was a popular movie, right? But like, it has gained this kind of

01:29:11   following to it. I also know that it's being remade. Or like, there's more of the story,

01:29:19   yeah.

01:29:20   There is a sequel being made, a much, much later sequel that is being released in October.

01:29:28   But yes, this is a well-known, well-thought-of, historic film, and I would say influential

01:29:39   film in many ways. The look of this film has been referenced and paid homage to many, many,

01:29:48   many, many times. It is—that's one of the important things about it. And its connection

01:29:52   to Alien is it's the same director. This is Ridley Scott. So it does have a connection

01:29:55   to Alien it is kind of a logical follow-on in a way whereas Aliens would have been for

01:30:01   a different reason. Also I have to ask you which version did you watch? Did you watch

01:30:06   the version with the narration?

01:30:09   Yeah.

01:30:10   Okay.

01:30:11   It was what iTunes gave me. So I just got what was I believe to be the standard edition

01:30:18   on iTunes. Is that not it then?

01:30:22   I don't know. There are multiple editions.

01:30:25   No. I didn't get the final cut. I got the regular, what looked like to me to be the

01:30:32   regular edition of the movie. People were telling me to watch the final cut, but I decided

01:30:37   not to. I wanted to get what I believed would be the most original version.

01:30:43   So you watched the 1982 theatrical release, which is the one with the lots and lots of

01:30:49   Harrison Ford narration.

01:30:51   And my understanding just from what I've picked up was this narration was added in later because

01:30:55   people couldn't work out what was going on, right?

01:30:57   Is that true?

01:30:58   Yeah, that's, I think that's right.

01:31:00   I don't know.

01:31:01   I'm not a Blade Runner historian, but that's my understanding is that it was, the narration

01:31:06   was put in to explain the movie.

01:31:09   And I think it was needed.

01:31:10   Although it adds to the noir feel of it, I feel like.

01:31:14   And it's a good, I think Ford's good.

01:31:17   There is—people are split about whether the no-narration versions are better. I don't—I

01:31:25   mean, and you might talk to somebody who's like, "Oh, that's the real one," but

01:31:28   there are other people who disagree. I think it's telling that both versions are available,

01:31:31   right? Because they are very different in a lot of ways, but you got to see the one

01:31:35   that was in theaters.

01:31:36   So, like, what I'll say is, like, you know, I haven't seen the other versions of the

01:31:38   movie, however many there might be, but without the narration in the movie that I watched,

01:31:42   I don't think I would have known what was going on.

01:31:44   So did you know going in, did you know that this is about androids?

01:31:49   Did you know that there is like, did you know about like the cityscape stuff?

01:31:55   Like that it looked like dark and lots of screens on buildings and stuff?

01:32:01   Yeah, just having been exposed to pop culture, you know, I was familiar with the term "replicant,"

01:32:07   but I wasn't completely sure what that was in reference to,

01:32:11   whether it was clones or robots or aliens, right? But I knew that was a thing.

01:32:16   And I've seen the look of this movie all over the place, right? Like the big screens.

01:32:24   Because I've seen pictures of Tokyo now and people saying "look, it is Blade Runner."

01:32:31   Stuff like that. I've seen that kind of thing. So I was familiar with some of the base ideas

01:32:38   as to what this movie was putting out there, you know?

01:32:42   And so let me tell you what I thought of this movie.

01:32:47   It is one of the most beautiful films I have ever seen.

01:32:50   I was so taken aback and drawn in by the look of this film.

01:32:57   The majority of my notes are just about, "Wow, this set is beautiful," and, "Wow, that set

01:33:03   is beautiful."

01:33:04   Like, I was completely sold on the look of this movie.

01:33:07   Some of it is too dark, but the set design and the world design is incredible and I'm

01:33:18   kind of so surprised that it's taken this long for any continuation of this world.

01:33:28   Because this world is so intriguing and well thought out and fleshed out and there's this

01:33:34   whole lore and language to it, let alone just the way it looks. It's surprising to me that

01:33:40   more hasn't been done in the Blade Runner universe before now, honestly.

01:33:45   Yeah, it's, uh, you know, it was viewed and it's based on a story by Philip K. Dick, the

01:33:53   science fiction writer. Maybe there was a feeling like it's a one-off. The franchising

01:34:00   of everything in Hollywood has really picked up lately.

01:34:05   So now we're getting the sequel right all these years later,

01:34:08   which is weird, but that's where we are.

01:34:10   So at the time, you know, at the time,

01:34:13   I think it was not universally hailed or anything like that.

01:34:17   And it was not a huge hit.

01:34:18   It really did become kind of appreciated later,

01:34:20   became a cult classic.

01:34:22   It was put on the National Film Registry as a historic film.

01:34:26   I mean, it got there, but it took some time.

01:34:29   And so on that level, maybe I'm not surprised that it took them that long to revisit it.

01:34:34   They did, however, Ridley Scott did revisit the film a couple of times with these alternate versions of it.

01:34:41   I think I like this movie more than you do.

01:34:46   Okay. That's probably not hard.

01:34:49   Because I don't feel like I dislike the movie.

01:34:56   I don't dislike this movie. I have a bunch of issues with it and I don't love it.

01:35:02   Like I don't feel a great affection for it. I think it looks amazing. I think the storytelling

01:35:10   is a mess. I think it's got some really memorable scenes. And my big thing is that although the

01:35:20   soundtrack, like the score is beautiful, it's Evangelis who did "Cher, It's a Fire" as well

01:35:25   did this score and it's fascinating and weird and electronic and all that, but it's also sleepy.

01:35:30   And the movie is slow and I've told this story before but I'll say it again.

01:35:35   My wife, I've tried to get my wife to watch this movie three times,

01:35:38   and all three times she fell asleep. Fell asleep all three times. And she does not fall asleep

01:35:45   while watching movies all three times because the music lulls you and nothing is really happening.

01:35:51   And the scary thing is you get lulled and lulled and lulled, and then Daryl Hannah screams and does a bunch of cartwheels and tries to kill somebody, and you're like, "Baaah!" and now you're awake.

01:36:01   So, I have, yeah, I have some issues with this movie. It's not a movie that I enjoy, although it's a movie that I can appreciate for what it is.

01:36:10   Oh, and I should say that scene with Ruttger Hauer, where he's like, "I've seen things

01:36:16   you wouldn't believe. I've seen ships off the Tannhauser Gate, or ships on fire on the

01:36:22   arm of Orion and all of that. Time to die." That scene, all these things will be lost,

01:36:26   like tears and rain, that monologue is amazing, and I love it, and I also make jokes about

01:36:32   it all the time because it is so impressive. There are some amazing things in this movie.

01:36:38   you know, you could argue that maybe sometimes that's okay, that maybe a movie is memorable and important

01:36:44   even if it doesn't really hold together as a whole because the stuff, the bits that are in it, there's so many of them that are things you can appreciate.

01:36:52   So that's sort of my take, is I'm kind of ambivalent about the movie as a whole, but I have to appreciate the artistry and a lot of the things that are in it are amazing.

01:36:59   Harrison Ford you know I think I yeah what a career that guy had in the early

01:37:05   in the late 70s early 80s because this is right you know you got Indiana Jones

01:37:08   Han Solo you put this in there it's like this Deckard performance where he's this

01:37:13   noir detective in this future world and all that and he really you know it's

01:37:18   it's another one of those fascinating kind of performances that guy that guy

01:37:22   is great he was like typecast as the best kind of thing cool guy right yeah

01:37:28   - Yeah, what a great thing to be typecast as.

01:37:30   Right, like those three roles, it's like,

01:37:32   we need a cool guy.

01:37:34   Does anybody know a cool guy?

01:37:35   Oh yeah, we'll get Harrison Ford in to do it.

01:37:37   - We got a guy, well it's the, I look at that

01:37:39   and I think that that's the kind of career

01:37:41   that that's a Humphrey Bogart kind of career.

01:37:43   Where this is a guy, he's a movie star.

01:37:45   And he can play these parts and people love him.

01:37:48   And so like just keep making movies

01:37:50   where he's that cool guy.

01:37:51   Like why would you stop making movies

01:37:53   where he's the cool guy?

01:37:56   And yeah, yeah, absolutely.

01:37:58   - One of the things I really couldn't understand

01:38:00   about this movie is replicants

01:38:03   and their relationship to planet Earth.

01:38:06   Because if I was following it correctly,

01:38:10   replicants are outlawed on planet Earth,

01:38:14   but there is a company based on planet Earth that makes them?

01:38:18   - Yeah, I think the idea is that they're made to work

01:38:24   and they're not supposed to get free and try to live among people.

01:38:29   And it's not clear to me whether they're not allowed to be on Earth at all.

01:38:34   I think that's not true, but that these ones have come back to Earth illegally

01:38:38   because they want more life, they want to

01:38:41   extend their lives, and they've come back to their creator.

01:38:44   I mean, it's a classic story in that way. It's a Frankenstein

01:38:49   kind of story where the the created creature has come back to its creator demanding life or

01:38:56   or killing the creator which is totally what happens here so yeah yeah it was just difficult

01:39:02   for me to follow like are they outlawed completely are they like yeah it was it was just a difficult

01:39:09   thing because i was like this whole police force has been created to destroy them but yet the

01:39:15   the company there is making them, it was just a little bit like I didn't really feel like

01:39:19   I had a full grasp on it, right? Because I was like, are they only allowed on the other

01:39:24   world, right? Like where they're, it's like, we destroyed planet earth and everybody's

01:39:28   being moved off if they can be or they're desired to be, right? It's kind of what's

01:39:31   happening in this world.

01:39:32   - And Sean, but you know, Sean Young is there as Rachel and she's a replicant but she's

01:39:37   there on earth, so it's, I think it's more that these are like rogue replicants that

01:39:43   are being hunted and that's the story there.

01:39:48   So yeah, I guess that makes a little bit more sense, right? There are some that are allowed,

01:39:53   because they reference pleasure models, right? I think you can kind of draw from that what

01:39:57   they're getting at. And you would imagine that they would be allowed on Earth, but these

01:40:01   like the Nexus 6, this type of model that seems like a warrior or soldier, they have

01:40:08   these shortened lifespans so they'll be less dangerous I guess and I guess they're the

01:40:15   ones that they have to hunt down. Also I didn't get at any point why these police are called

01:40:22   blade runners? Yeah. I don't know. Okay great. I just like, this is a really cool phrase

01:40:29   but I don't know what it means. It's what I call them, they're called blade runners,

01:40:33   that's what they're called. They run the blades, you know. What's wrong with you? Why can't

01:40:37   you get this. FutureTech. FutureTech is in this. Future Technology based in 70s thinking,

01:40:44   80s thinking.

01:40:45   - 80s thinking, yeah, exactly. Also, yeah, Future Technology and culture based on 80s

01:40:51   thinking. So this is in the 80s. In the 80s, there's definitely this feeling like Japan

01:40:56   and Germany are going to dominate the 21st century. That was the meme in the 80s. And

01:41:00   So you see here a Los Angeles that is very much sort of modeled on Tokyo and is very

01:41:06   Japanese in its style.

01:41:10   And the Nexus 6 looked like Germans, right?

01:41:14   Yeah.

01:41:15   It's one hair, blue eyes.

01:41:17   I suppose that's true too.

01:41:19   Yeah.

01:41:20   Although there are pictures now, I saw a picture that I think was in Beijing somewhere in Asia

01:41:23   where somebody had a picture that they posted that basically said, "Hey, does this look

01:41:27   like Blade Runner because it's a picture I took today in this large city in Asia. And

01:41:33   there is, you know, the visual style here, did they help create that? Did they just correctly

01:41:39   intuit it? You know, there's a lot here that's influential and interesting and maybe life

01:41:44   imitating art in the end.

01:41:46   David: One of the future tech things that I enjoyed the most was the photo enhancement.

01:41:52   You know, he takes the physical picture, puts it in the computer, and is able to enhance

01:41:56   it to the point where he can basically see reflections in tiny pieces of mirror right

01:42:00   and then he wants a hard copy of it and gets it printed onto a polaroid. Like that whole

01:42:06   scene is incredible. Like it starts with a physical picture, is enhanced astronomically

01:42:12   by this computer which then gives them a polaroid at the end. I love stuff like that. It's

01:42:17   so funny and it makes me think like what are we putting in movies now that dates us? Because

01:42:24   Because all of this was like, where can we see this technology going into the future?

01:42:29   What are we doing now in movies that are based in the future that is dating us?

01:42:34   I like to think about stuff like that because then it was like, this is the first, as far

01:42:38   as we can take this technology, as far as our imaginations can take us.

01:42:44   And I think that stuff's kind of funny.

01:42:47   One of the scenes that I really, really disliked is at the moment when, I think it's Roy,

01:42:53   the kind of the replicant dude, is arguing with Tyrell about science. Like they have

01:43:00   this really heated debate about the extension of their life. And they're debating about

01:43:05   like the different scientific methods that should be undertaken to see if life can be

01:43:10   extended. It's completely pointless. Like, there's just science jargon being thrown at

01:43:16   each other for a few minutes that culminates in an incredibly violent murder scene. It's

01:43:21   weird I did not like that scene it was very strange I mean let alone all the

01:43:26   stuff with JF like those toys that he makes when he refers to his toys they're

01:43:30   terrifyingly creepy and that's all kind of wrapped up in these back-to-back

01:43:33   scenes that was uncomfortable and then talking about death scenes and you

01:43:40   mentioned it already when Pris like the female strong replicant all of that

01:43:46   that scene where she's screaming and jumping around and then Decker, Harris and Ford shoot

01:43:53   her and she's like screaming and thrashing around on the ground like it's a bit much.

01:43:59   It's a little bit much. There are times in this movie where it just gets pushed a little

01:44:03   bit too far in a lot of ways and this is one of them. I mean then just the whole end scene

01:44:09   is a little bit too much for me. There's so much that happens in the third act of this

01:44:16   movie that I'm like I don't know what's happened like it just goes off the rails

01:44:21   like it completely goes off the rails like when from the point where Dekker

01:44:28   arrives at JF's apartment which is I think the most beautiful set like the

01:44:34   outside where he's like walking up the stairs it's unbelievable it shot so well

01:44:38   but from the moment he enters the door I'm like I don't know what's going on

01:44:42   anymore from the moment where she's screaming and cartwheeling around and he shoots her

01:44:48   and she's gone crazy on the ground to then like Roy the the the remaining Nexus 6 why

01:44:55   is he in his underwear? I don't know why he strips down to his underwear to chase

01:45:00   deck out. Why is he howling like a wolf? None of it makes any sense like and then he sticks

01:45:07   a nail in his through his hand and I assume it's because he's like he's starting to seize

01:45:12   up right like he's starting to die and I assume he does that to make sure he has feeling in

01:45:16   his hand left but that's weird because it's like then there are all these like biblical

01:45:20   references right like he puts a nail through his hands it's kind of strange and then like

01:45:27   why is he holding a dove like all of a sudden he's got a dove in his hand this doesn't make

01:45:32   And then like Decker's fingers gets broken, but he's still climbing up the walls

01:45:36   It's really gets the wheels come off this movie in an almost spectacular way

01:45:43   It's yeah, I mean again, I I wish I could I could somebody like John Siracusa needs to swoop in and and

01:45:53   and

01:45:54   Explain it and defend it better than I can. I look forward to the follow-up. Yeah, because for me it's like

01:46:01   Yeah, yeah, right? I mean, these are things you're describing are not my favorite things about this movie.

01:46:07   Those are not the things that I think of fondly as being like, "Boy, that's a great moment."

01:46:12   I do like Roy Batty's last, like I said, his last monologue.

01:46:17   Yeah, that is great.

01:46:18   By the way, the number of people that are maddened by these Myke at the Movies episodes is fascinating to me.

01:46:23   Like, Antony Johnston just kind of like lost it about Alien.

01:46:26   He was telling me like, "What is going on with Myke?"

01:46:29   and it's like yeah I know it's it's it's funny when there's something in here and

01:46:34   trashing these eighties movies that's the problem yeah that I think that's it

01:46:37   well I think I think not getting it right like where people like but you

01:46:40   don't understand it's like part of the experiment with you is seeing these

01:46:44   movies you've never seen before and so do you you don't have that layer of

01:46:48   nostalgia or context to put on these things you weren't there that's exactly

01:46:52   right I want there yeah you know what I also don't get I don't know what the

01:46:56   moral this movie is? I don't know what it's trying to tell me. Interesting. I

01:47:03   can't work it out. It's... I would say... I would say the themes of this movie, I

01:47:09   mean a lot of it is about trying to understand yourself and that the... and

01:47:14   and having meaning in life and that the the replicants are interesting in

01:47:23   that they're kind of an accelerated version of humanity.

01:47:26   They have these very limited lifespans.

01:47:28   So they're intelligent and they learn

01:47:31   that they have a lifespan and they want to live longer,

01:47:34   which is a very human kind of concept,

01:47:36   even though these are androids, these are replicants.

01:47:39   And then you go to your creator, right?

01:47:44   And this is all the way back to Frankenstein,

01:47:47   but it's something that a created being can do

01:47:50   that we can't as humans, right?

01:47:53   we can't go to a creator and demand reasons. I mean, it's the base of many religions to do that,

01:47:59   but it's not like we—you can't walk up to somebody and say, "Why am I here?" Instead,

01:48:05   we ask, or we have a religion that explains it to us. And the replicants get to do that. They get

01:48:12   to go to Tyrell and say, "I want more life." Right? "Why am I here?" And so I think that's

01:48:19   interesting that that's an interesting theme that's one of the ones that I grabbed to is

01:48:23   is amid the screaming and shooting and folding of origami there is that question of uh it's like a

01:48:33   super accelerated existential question of who who are we why are we here why do we have to die

01:48:39   that the that the yeah you know replicants are asking the happy ending didn't fit this movie

01:48:44   for me. It's a very controversial ending. Yeah, very controversial ending. I think

01:48:50   changed at the last minute. It feels changed. And some of the footage is from

01:48:55   like another movie that they use to like show like the green grass and things

01:49:01   like that as they go. It is a surprise that it ends that way. Honestly, I was

01:49:07   expecting that that Dekker was a replicant. Okay, well, so that is one of the

01:49:12   great I don't know if you've read about any of this but that is one of the great

01:49:14   debates about this movie is that some of the people making it thought he was

01:49:18   some thought he wasn't they kind of left it ambiguous if he is a replicant I

01:49:24   don't know how he survived to be old Harrison Ford in the new movie they're

01:49:27   making so I guess that will change something about the story. Is he in the

01:49:32   movie? Yeah, Harrison Ford's in the movie. Well that answers it then, doesn't it? Because he either shouldn't get old?

01:49:38   right right because shouldn't get shouldn't get old or yeah or should not

01:49:43   be there mm-hmm but yeah it's a it's the fact I mean it's a classic and yet the

01:49:49   fact that the that they have redone it a couple of times and done alternate

01:49:54   versions of it I think speaks to the fact that it's also a bit of a mess and

01:49:59   that the the people who made it have kept thinking about going back and doing

01:50:05   things to it, especially after it became such a classic. I think that says something about it.

01:50:10   I think it also says something about the appeal of it, that people want to see it again and want

01:50:14   to have a new perspective about it and want to debate it. I think those are all in its favor,

01:50:18   but I also think that the fact that Ridley Scott wants to fix it suggests that he thinks that it

01:50:23   was kind of not right when he made it. I feel the same way about Brazil. Have you ever seen Brazil,

01:50:32   Terry Gilliam. It's a similarly brilliant, weird movie that has like

01:50:39   three or four--they did a DVD with like three or four different versions in the

01:50:42   box set of it because there's so many different cuts of the movie. And I feel

01:50:47   like there's something in that. If your movie's got

01:50:51   lots of different cuts that says something about it. Either you had a

01:50:54   horrible, you know, horrible relationship with your studio or you thought better of it later.

01:51:03   Obviously, the attitude toward the movie changed after it came out and that enabled people to make

01:51:08   different cuts of it. Otherwise, you just only ever have the one. So it's just kind of fascinating

01:51:13   when that happens. And Blade Runner, like Brazil, Blade Runner has had that. And it's kind of

01:51:19   interesting to view that as a trait of this film that years later the creators of this movie made

01:51:26   two different director's cut and ultimate cut or whatever and it's final cut that are different.

01:51:34   But you know again I don't have a huge fondness for this movie but I appreciate it and it sounds

01:51:40   like you're kind of in the ballpark too where it's like it's a really interesting movie

01:51:44   but it's not necessarily like you feel like you want to hug it and watch it a bunch of times.

01:51:48   There are a bunch of flaws in it that I wouldn't excuse if it didn't look the way it did.

01:51:53   It really does look great. I mean, it cannot enough--I mean, so much has been written about it,

01:51:57   but it's fair. This is--it looks amazing, and it completely changed people's conceptions of

01:52:06   science fiction futures and influenced so many movies. Somebody in our chat room was just saying,

01:52:11   like anime, like so much anime is Blade Runner. Like that is clearly a reference point for Blade

01:52:21   Runner, or for anime is Blade Runner. And it's true in live action movies too. There is so much

01:52:27   that we owe to Blade Runner's look. And you know, it's funny because from that perspective,

01:52:33   you can often look back on these old movies and say, "Oh, well, I don't see the big deal,

01:52:36   not understanding that this is the thing that set the tone." And at the time it was kind of

01:52:40   of a revelation. I also do think that though that at the time the people who are lukewarm

01:52:44   on it were lukewarm on it because they were seeing its flaws and that the, you know, they

01:52:48   were looking for as a movie and seeing the problems with the storytelling and as it became

01:52:54   a cult it became more about the debate about Deckard and, you know, some of the little

01:53:00   details and all the things that you pick up if you watch the movie 10 times that if you

01:53:05   watch it once you're just like "whatever" and I think that maybe explains why a lot

01:53:09   of cult movies become cult movies is that is that they unfold better over many viewings

01:53:16   than they do when you just watch it once and let it go.

01:53:20   I was I'm looking forward to the next one like I'm looking forward to Blade Runner

01:53:25   2049. I like Ryan Gosling a lot and I'm interested to see what could be done further

01:53:31   in this universe. Yeah yeah I think it's interesting I'm gonna I'm waiting I'm

01:53:37   I'm gonna do a wait and see on that one, right?

01:53:40   Like, I'm not gonna be in line for it,

01:53:41   but I'm ready to hear that it's an interesting movie

01:53:45   and go see it if it is.

01:53:47   - If you wanna find out show notes for this week,

01:53:50   go to relay.fm/upgrades/138.

01:53:54   I'd like to take a moment to thank our sponsors again,

01:53:56   Encapsula, TextExpander, Mac, Walden, and FreshBooks

01:53:59   for helping support the show.

01:54:01   Most of all, thank you for listening.

01:54:02   You can find Jason's work online at sixcolors.com,

01:54:05   he is @jsnell on twitter. I am @imike and we'll be back next time. Until then, say

01:54:12   goodbye Mr Snell.

01:54:13   Goodbye everybody.

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