135: Trashed The Can


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Real AFM, this is Upgrade episode 135 today.

00:00:14   We are in London together. My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined across

00:00:18   this very table by Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:20   Hi Myke.

00:00:20   Hi Jason.

00:00:21   I'm looking at you.

00:00:22   I know, we are recording in my living room right now.

00:00:25   Mega living room.

00:00:26   Mega living room.

00:00:28   So I guess that it's gonna sound different and everything,

00:00:31   but we can do the high five that you know well,

00:00:34   the real in-person high five.

00:00:36   You didn't hear it 'cause it was a small high five,

00:00:38   but it happened.

00:00:39   So it is only time, it is now the time,

00:00:42   that we must address #snailtalk for the week,

00:00:45   and our snail talk opening question for this week

00:00:47   comes from Matthew.

00:00:48   Matthew wants to know, other than Guinness,

00:00:50   what is your favorite beverage when you come to the UK

00:00:52   or Ireland, which you do every year now?

00:00:54   - Yeah.

00:00:56   I'm trying not to say anything bad about Guinness.

00:00:58   Guinness is fine.

00:01:00   It is a style of beer that I like,

00:01:01   and it is perfectly fine,

00:01:02   although there are better stouts in the world than Guinness.

00:01:06   I don't know.

00:01:08   And tea.

00:01:11   Tea is good.

00:01:12   Right, this is a good place for tea.

00:01:13   If you like tea.

00:01:14   These islands are good for tea.

00:01:16   I will seek out, I like dark beer,

00:01:19   so when I'm in the UK especially,

00:01:20   I will seek out if there is a local stout or porter,

00:01:24   since this is the home of the porter, I believe it was invented here, and that's my favorite style of beer.

00:01:29   I look for those. I keep an eye on those. I had a local London beer yesterday, but it was a Belgian wit style beer, so it was a little bit different.

00:01:44   But yeah, so I would say a dark beer is probably the answer. Not Guinness.

00:01:49   Not Guinness.

00:01:50   Guinness is fine again, but a local different brand would probably be my choice.

00:01:55   If you would like to submit a question for our opening segment of the show, you can use

00:01:59   the hashtag SnellTalk and you can do that and they will come into a lovely spreadsheet

00:02:04   and thank you to Matthew for his submission.

00:02:06   We have already had the first casualty of SnellTalk though, last week.

00:02:10   You bought a new car, you bought an electric car, which we would have definitely spoken

00:02:14   about at the beginning of the episode when I asked you how you were doing.

00:02:16   I gazed out my window to check on the sky and see if it was it was gray or blue.

00:02:21   You would have said, "Oh, there's a new car out there."

00:02:22   I would have.

00:02:23   What did you get?

00:02:25   We bought a used Nissan Leaf.

00:02:30   This is full electric.

00:02:31   Full electric.

00:02:32   It's not hybrid.

00:02:33   No, there's no place to put gas.

00:02:34   You can pour it in but you're just going to ruin the leather inside of it.

00:02:38   You'll ruin the seats.

00:02:40   Yeah, one of these days I'm going to be driving past a gas station and I'm just going to drive

00:02:44   the car right through it and back out the other side and it's just

00:02:48   trolling the gas station. But yeah we were looking for a new car for our

00:02:53   second car. We have a minivan that's sort of the number one car and

00:02:57   right now we have a compact car that's our second car. But it's getting

00:03:02   up there in age and it has some issues with its transmission and I decided I

00:03:06   didn't think it was suitable or safe for my daughter to drive. I'm okay driving it

00:03:11   right now but even I think that it's in a long run it's just getting up there

00:03:15   and it needs to go. So we needed a second car and a car our daughter learning to

00:03:19   drive has been something that sort of precipitated it happening soon. And we

00:03:23   realized that I mean I kind of wanted to get an electric car but we realized that

00:03:27   for a second car we really didn't need a lot of range so it wasn't a big deal to

00:03:32   buy a new electric car that's got a couple hundred miles of range we could

00:03:36   get a used model. And the thing with a lot of these electric cars and people

00:03:40   who are in the know about electric cars,

00:03:42   a lot of electric car usage is lease usage

00:03:46   because it's new technology and why not lease a car

00:03:50   and not be stuck with it?

00:03:51   So after three years or whatever, you give it back

00:03:54   and you move on to your next electric car.

00:03:58   Well, what happens to those cars that were leased

00:04:00   when their lease is up?

00:04:02   And the answer is they put them out on the used car market

00:04:05   at a pretty reduced price

00:04:08   from what they cost originally a few years ago.

00:04:10   And that's what this car was, it was a lease.

00:04:13   So we bought it for less than a third

00:04:17   of what its original list price was, I think.

00:04:20   So that's, you know, and I think for us,

00:04:22   that was, it was a good choice because we have,

00:04:24   even though its range is not particularly great,

00:04:26   I think it gets like 70 miles of range.

00:04:30   But that's more than enough for where it'll get used.

00:04:32   - Yeah.

00:04:34   Congratulations on the new addition to the Snell driveway.

00:04:37   - Thank you.

00:04:38   Let's do some small items, some follow-up and many stuff.

00:04:43   MLB at Bat has gained personalized app icons with iOS 10.3.

00:04:48   You remember that one of the things that was in 10.3

00:04:52   was the ability for an application to change its icon,

00:04:55   and it wasn't like dynamic, you had to make a choice,

00:04:57   sometimes there'd be this little pop-up.

00:04:59   It seemed really super weird.

00:05:01   Well, now the MLB at Bat application

00:05:04   will allow you to choose your team's logo

00:05:06   to replace the MLB icons on your home screen.

00:05:11   Have you done this with yours?

00:05:12   - I did it and decided I didn't like it

00:05:16   and went back to the original MLB icon

00:05:19   because I use that app not just to check on my favorite team,

00:05:23   but I use it to check on other teams and scores

00:05:26   and watch other games and things like that.

00:05:30   And so it seemed weird to me to turn it

00:05:31   into a branded app for one team.

00:05:34   And I'm used to the MLB app.

00:05:36   So it's kind of funny, I get why you'd want to do this if really the whole point of using

00:05:40   the app is to check on your team, but for whatever reason I just decided I kind of liked

00:05:44   it the way it was.

00:05:45   You're a fan of the sport.

00:05:46   I am.

00:05:47   I do have my favorite team and all that, but I am checking other scores and looking at

00:05:50   other video of other games and things like that.

00:05:52   So I decided not to do it.

00:05:54   I tweeted about this and I heard from a couple of people that they had heard from people,

00:05:59   you know, like as the grapevine goes, that this entire feature in 10.3 was for MLB.

00:06:05   That is what I've heard from those same kind of grapevine sources.

00:06:10   It makes sense that they would ask for it, but I don't think it makes sense that Apple

00:06:13   would give it to them.

00:06:14   Like why?

00:06:15   Why would they give them that feature?

00:06:17   Like an entire feature in the OS just for this.

00:06:19   They've been a trailblazing developer for iOS for a long time.

00:06:23   They've always been.

00:06:24   This is a Hall of Fame app.

00:06:28   Macworld I think put it in the app Hall of Fame.

00:06:30   You speak very hard of it, right?

00:06:33   Was it a week or two ago?

00:06:34   It is a great app and it's been a great app for a while now.

00:06:39   So my guess is that what probably happened is they said,

00:06:42   it would be nice if we could do this.

00:06:45   Or they said something like,

00:06:46   we are thinking of releasing individual apps for every team

00:06:50   because people want this and we can't provide it.

00:06:53   And Apple said, no, no, no, no, no, we'll do it.

00:06:55   But my guess is that Apple wouldn't implement this

00:06:57   just for them, but that this may have been the impetus

00:07:00   for it, 'cause you can see other examples of this,

00:07:03   just off the top of my head, imagine Overcast, the podcast player has a light

00:07:09   theme and a dark theme and the icon is based on the light theme.

00:07:13   Well, it's got another color scheme, why not offer another color scheme for

00:07:17   its icon?

00:07:17   And that's true of any app that's got that.

00:07:20   Or you've got an app icon that you can skin in

00:07:24   a different colors based on people's design choice.

00:07:28   Why not allow them to do that?

00:07:30   It is a sort of a silly feature and

00:07:32   Of course it has to be done through a user interface so you can't just change it as a

00:07:36   calendar app, you can't change the date every day, it doesn't work like that.

00:07:41   But it allows some more customizability and I think that's fine.

00:07:46   The new iPad has been torn down by iFixit and they confirm that it's basically identical

00:07:55   in build on the inside to the iPad Air, the first iPad Air.

00:08:00   confirms what we thought that Apple were going for. They're trying to make an iPad at the

00:08:04   lowest price possible, so they're reverting some parts, they're maybe reverting to an

00:08:07   easier to build machine, and that's what they've done with the iPad. I think that, you know,

00:08:12   I don't think that really this is to be criticized, but I just thought it was interesting to get

00:08:17   the information from iFixit.

00:08:18   Right, and it seemed like that, that it was basically the specs, other than the processors

00:08:23   that they upgraded, it seemed very much like an iPad Air. Now we know that Dan Frakes at

00:08:27   the wire cutter who is the czar of iPod and iPad and iPhone accessories.

00:08:34   He has been the iPhone accessory guy for so long.

00:08:38   Dan said that iPad Air cases, some of them will work with the new iPad and some of them

00:08:46   won't.

00:08:47   iPad Air, not iPad Air 2, but iPad Air.

00:08:49   Because the shape is the same but the location of like the camera I think and some of the

00:08:53   ports is slightly different.

00:08:55   So you may not be able to reuse that case if you've got an iPad Air.

00:09:00   But really why would you get an iPad Air or an iPad if you've got an iPad Air?

00:09:05   I mean it is slightly upgraded but it's essentially the same.

00:09:09   It's really targeted at pre-iPad Air users.

00:09:13   Yep.

00:09:14   Alright, should we take a break?

00:09:16   Sure.

00:09:17   Jason, would you like to thank our returning sponsor?

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00:10:03   So many 9s. MailRoute has taken all the 9s. Good luck everybody else. There are no more

00:10:07   9s left. One of my favorite features of MailRoute is they send you a summary email of everything

00:10:14   that they've filtered out. So I've got it set to every day, although you can set how

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00:10:24   that has been filtered out and with one click you can deliver that message or

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00:10:57   match a competitor's contract. Check it out. mailroute.net/upgrade. Thank you

00:11:02   MailRoute for their support of this show and their support of mail bagging.

00:11:08   Before we sat down today I was giving Jason a tour of Mega Office and I showed

00:11:15   him where the mailbag that he bought me lives. It lives, the mailbag lives, ladies and gentlemen.

00:11:22   Greatest gift ever. Not only do mailbags live, Jason Snell, so does the Macintosh Professional.

00:11:29   Oh, what an unlikely turn of events this is, Myke.

00:11:31   I was so prepared for today's show. I had a whole document done, we had a bunch of topics

00:11:37   all set out. We were ready to go.

00:11:39   It would have been a great show. One of the all-time greats.

00:11:41   One of the all-time greats. And then a bunch of, I guess an embargo lifted, and a bunch

00:11:47   of articles were published. To name a few, John Gruber, we have Buzzfeed, TechCrunch,

00:11:53   Axios, which I wasn't sure existed until you mentioned it to me. What is Axios?

00:11:58   It's a new one. It's a startup and Inafri, who used to be at Recode, is there.

00:12:04   And Mashable. They all had pieces where Apple sat down with them.

00:12:08   With literally those five people.

00:12:10   And a bunch of people from Apple, I think it was like kind of one-to-one in Apple representatives

00:12:14   to press representatives to talk about primarily the Mac Pro, but as a whole Apple's commitment

00:12:24   to Macintosh professional users.

00:12:27   They kind of touched across the whole gamut, but it's primarily on the Mac Pro.

00:12:31   So let's start with what they have done today.

00:12:35   Can we start with #JasonWasRight?

00:12:37   because I would say when people felt despair I was definitely not alone but I was on the

00:12:43   team who said that Mac Pro is not sticking around and looking old just to be discontinued.

00:12:51   That there has to be another story.

00:12:53   You remain faithful and everybody else will give them up.

00:12:55   Otherwise they would have just killed it.

00:12:57   And that didn't happen and it turns out we kind of got a one-two punch today about the

00:13:02   Mac Pro.

00:13:03   So what is happening immediately is that today,

00:13:08   Apple is releasing a small speed bump for the Mac Pro.

00:13:12   - New Mac Pros, everybody.

00:13:13   - I think so.

00:13:14   I think it says new on Apple's store page.

00:13:17   - They are new.

00:13:17   - So the $2,999 model goes from a four core Xeon CPU

00:13:22   to six cores and it gets a GPU upgrade.

00:13:26   I don't understand the GPU upgrades,

00:13:28   but I know that there's more numbers in there.

00:13:29   - Well, there's two, yeah, I don't understand it either.

00:13:32   There's two GPUs and they got upgrades.

00:13:33   They made the innards faster than it was.

00:13:36   I haven't seen whether this is,

00:13:39   I'm sure that other people will be writing about it soon

00:13:42   if they haven't already.

00:13:43   I don't know how current these Xeons are.

00:13:46   They may be a year old.

00:13:48   - Yep, but it's better.

00:13:50   - But they're newer than what was there

00:13:51   when they introduced the product,

00:13:52   which hasn't changed since then.

00:13:54   - And the $3,999 model goes from a six-core CPU

00:13:58   to eight cores and also gets a GPU upgrade as well.

00:14:01   That's it for upgrades, no Thunderbolt,

00:14:03   no Retina display support, no USB-C.

00:14:05   - Yeah, it's still using the old Thunderbolt

00:14:07   and the old USB-3 and all of that stuff.

00:14:10   It's literally a swapped in chips on the Mac Pro.

00:14:15   - But this is merely the starter to what is the big news,

00:14:18   the main course of this.

00:14:20   Apple has preannounced today,

00:14:22   they have preannounced that a new Mac Pro

00:14:25   and external display made by Apple are being worked on.

00:14:29   They won't be out this year,

00:14:31   but they're saying it will be out next year.

00:14:34   Can I read a quote from John Gruber?

00:14:35   - Sure.

00:14:36   - Apple is currently hard at work

00:14:38   on a completely rethought Mac Pro

00:14:39   with a modular design that can accommodate high-end CPUs

00:14:43   and big honking hot running GPUs.

00:14:45   I'm not sure if that's a quote from Apple exactly,

00:14:47   but it's what John said.

00:14:48   And which should make it easier for Apple to update

00:14:51   with new components on a regular basis.

00:14:54   They're also working on Apple branded pro displays

00:14:57   to go with them.

00:14:58   So let's start off with one key word in this.

00:15:02   - Is it honkin'?

00:15:03   - Well, not honkin' so much.

00:15:05   - Let's do that. - Modular.

00:15:07   - Modular.

00:15:07   So,

00:15:09   looking at the context of that word,

00:15:14   my guess is what it means is,

00:15:17   it's something that we'll talk about more in a little bit,

00:15:20   which is modular for Apple.

00:15:23   That it makes it,

00:15:25   It's a system that is less carefully balanced and integrated than the trash can Mac Pro.

00:15:31   That allows them to more easily swap in new parts.

00:15:36   It's possible that it's a modular design for users as well.

00:15:40   There's no extra detail here.

00:15:42   It could mean that it'll have slots and things.

00:15:45   But I think- >> I see where you're going now.

00:15:46   >> I think the context here is that the existing one was not modular enough for

00:15:51   them to easily swap in new stuff because it was balanced on the head of a pin.

00:15:55   It ended up being less modular than they expected or like the modularity, if there's

00:16:01   a new word for you, that they expected didn't pan out which was that you would

00:16:04   just connect stuff to it. And that just wasn't a future that was

00:16:08   realized. I hadn't thought about the idea of the modularness. I'm gonna go with modularity.

00:16:17   I'm gonna go with modularity. Well done. I wasn't, I didn't really think of it in a

00:16:22   sense of like it would make it easier for Apple to upgrade. I was thinking of

00:16:25   it in the sense of like, "Cheese grater Mac," right? Where you could open the door

00:16:28   and you could pull stuff out and put new things in. So do you think that maybe we're looking

00:16:33   at more like the design is modular for Apple's machines to build more of these

00:16:38   and update them quicker or that users may be given the ability to pull off a

00:16:42   door and put stuff in it. Yeah I think Apple's never going to prioritize card slots.

00:16:51   Right. I mean there's literally not a system they make that has something like

00:16:57   that. Cards and bays and you know open spaces with a question mark where it's

00:17:03   your product add-on product can go here. But the fact is also true that they

00:17:10   could do things to make it more repairable and upgradeable than it is

00:17:13   now even if it's not officially repairable or upgradeable and if they

00:17:18   did that it would probably be a side effect of the real reason they're doing

00:17:22   it which is they want to be able to quickly drop in new hardware because

00:17:26   quite frankly I mean this is the thing about the existing Mac Pro that

00:17:29   frustrated people and it made no sense is quite frankly for pro users they're

00:17:35   most concerned about can I buy the highest spec system that I can and if

00:17:40   you have to wait two years to buy that system or you can never buy it because

00:17:44   it's never going to be compatible then that why do we have a high-end product

00:17:48   at all instead you want like feature one of the high-end product to be its

00:17:52   ability to rapidly be turned into the latest and greatest processors when or

00:17:57   GPUs when they're available. So we'll come back to like to that part like the

00:18:02   idea of the updating in a little bit because Apple gave some information about, I think

00:18:07   they tried to explain I think what happened with the trashcan.

00:18:11   But there was more stuff that they spoke about today.

00:18:14   Apple said that they will have great new iMacs for release this year, which will include

00:18:20   configurations specifically targeted at large segments of the pro market.

00:18:24   Which I do wonder if that's the iPad or the iMac Pro rumor that has been going around.

00:18:29   Well at least the idea.

00:18:31   yeah the idea that that there are iMacs that are specifically targeted at large

00:18:37   segments of the pro market like they say here like what can we do if we're Apple

00:18:41   to take the iMac and make it even more appropriate for the high-end pro

00:18:45   market which they've been pushing it up to right now. Me and you do not need a Mac Pro. No we don't

00:18:50   although you know I do have those moments when I'm processing when I'm

00:18:53   denoising audio in iZotope where I've pinned the cores and it still takes a

00:18:59   a minute or two to denoise a two hour audio file.

00:19:03   And where I think faster CPU and faster storage,

00:19:08   which my iMac is the original 5K, so it doesn't have the faster storage,

00:19:14   that both of those things are something I could use.

00:19:16   I probably don't need a Mac Pro.

00:19:19   I could just get a more powerful iMac if one existed.

00:19:22   So I do think that that rumor going around,

00:19:25   that it's sort of gotten taken by some people as an example

00:19:28   of why the Mac Pro wouldn't exist, probably has its roots in this idea that for them to

00:19:33   specifically say configurations targeted at Pro users suggests that there's more above

00:19:40   and beyond where the iMac is today that they're going to try to push those systems to be capable

00:19:45   of.

00:19:46   I also see this as no matter what that actually ends up being, right, no matter how powerful

00:19:50   it is, it feels like another part in this puzzle where Apple is trying to associate,

00:19:56   right?

00:19:57   we don't know what it's gonna look like yet. It might not be anywhere even near a Mac Pro,

00:20:00   but just like a bump that we would expect. But what they're trying to do is like, okay,

00:20:05   we don't have this new Mac Pro until next year, but we do have some more

00:20:07   powerful machines coming this year. And they may just call it an iMac Pro,

00:20:12   no matter what it looks like. But I think it's the idea that they are trying to let people know

00:20:18   that we care about professional users. They bang this drum all day with this. And one of

00:20:26   of these things is like, "Oh, it's for segments of the pro market," because they just want

00:20:30   to say, like, "We promise," like, "We really seriously promise that we've got something."

00:20:33   Well, I think it's an interesting line for them to walk, because they know how many of

00:20:38   these models they sell.

00:20:40   And yes, there's truth that it's not exactly what everybody wants, but they know that the

00:20:50   iMac sells really well.

00:20:51   And it's true that the Mac Pro, in its current state, it does not appeal to Mac users so

00:20:55   much as a certain level of Mac Pro user type, right?

00:21:02   So I think this is the line they have to walk is making a new Mac Pro doesn't solve it for

00:21:12   all their Pro customers because a new iMac is actually a better solution for a lot of

00:21:17   the Pro users, not the ones who are really clamoring about the Mac Pro, but the iMac

00:21:22   peeled off a huge professional user base.

00:21:24   So that's what they all, it's not neither or in short, right?

00:21:30   They need to make the iMac better for pro users who want to use an iMac and they need

00:21:35   to make a Mac Pro because there's another class of user who does not.

00:21:39   So the other thing you neglected to mention there in that quote that you read, Apple branded

00:21:45   pro displays.

00:21:47   So even though they told Nilay Patel at the Verge that they're out of the display business,

00:21:54   apparently they're not out of the display business.

00:21:56   Maybe he just didn't listen to the rest and they said for now.

00:22:00   Maybe or maybe that was something not...

00:22:02   I think things have changed.

00:22:04   Or somebody, something not authorized to speak about it.

00:22:06   But it's also possible that they did this LG thing and then they saw what happened with

00:22:11   that monitor which is you know not very pretty to look at and don't put it near Wi-Fi and

00:22:18   all these things and thought why did we, this is what happens when we don't make it ourselves

00:22:23   so let's make it ourselves now.

00:22:25   But it's also possible that that was just, they changed direction and you know there

00:22:29   are lots of possibilities there but this is a definitive statement right that they're

00:22:33   going to make a new Mac Pro and they're going to make an Apple branded display to go with

00:22:37   it.

00:22:38   And I'm happy to see that just because it's something that people want.

00:22:43   You know, it is another part of the puzzle, right?

00:22:45   For people that care about this stuff a lot, right?

00:22:48   John Siracusa.

00:22:49   Like, it's important for them to have this whole thing.

00:22:52   And it does help inform and enforce the commitment.

00:22:56   And it's going to be an expensive monitor.

00:22:58   And it's going to be more expensive than your usual external high quality monitor.

00:23:04   It's going to be.

00:23:05   But that's, so, and they're gonna do that because they're gonna sell these things in

00:23:08   bundles and they're going to sell them at the Apple store and they're going to, it's

00:23:13   an Apple product and with the Apple label on it it's going to cost more and that's gonna

00:23:16   be a profit center for them.

00:23:18   But they're gonna be people who are happy to pay it and people who don't want to pay

00:23:21   it will buy something else.

00:23:22   But at least the option will be there.

00:23:24   I think it's great, I think it's great news because I know, you know, the LG display when

00:23:29   I saw it briefly looked perfectly fine but I heard from a lot of people who, you know,

00:23:33   They would rather just buy Apple hardware down the line rather than go out and buy some

00:23:37   third party display.

00:23:39   And right now the Thunderbolt display is the only one that was the last one that Apple

00:23:43   made so you're out of luck right now.

00:23:45   Best Apple display you can buy right now is to buy a device and use the built in display.

00:23:53   John Paxkowski of Buzzfeed asked about the Mac Mini.

00:23:58   And a very interesting comment was given, the Mac Mini remains a product in our line

00:24:02   up.

00:24:03   Yes, the Mac Mini is a product that exists.

00:24:06   Good work everyone.

00:24:07   Uh huh.

00:24:08   Congratulations, we saw it on the website.

00:24:10   Would you like to talk about iPhone cases?

00:24:12   Yeah.

00:24:13   It remains a product.

00:24:16   And we have nothing more to say about it today, I think I saw in one of the requests, which

00:24:20   is interesting, right?

00:24:24   I think the Mac Mini thing is much ado over nothing.

00:24:27   Forgive me if I've said this before, but when I see countdowns or count ups of how long

00:24:33   it's been since the Mac Mini update, go check on how often the Mac Mini gets updated.

00:24:42   This is a product that gets updated seldomly and has been for a decade.

00:24:48   I would argue it's probably not even much more than the longest it's ever gone without

00:24:53   an update.

00:24:54   checked that but just my gut feeling is when the last Mac Mini update came out

00:24:59   it was hailed as being a rare update to the Mac Mini. It's not a product that

00:25:03   gets updated very often. I was going to point out that the Mac Mini and the Mac

00:25:07   Pro are both interesting examples of products from Apple that in many ways

00:25:11   failed to be better than the product they replaced.

00:25:14   Yeah. Because like with the Mac Mini you had the four core version that got

00:25:17   kicked out when they went to this version and that four core version is

00:25:21   still the fastest Mac Mini you can buy. And the high configuration of the

00:25:25   previous cheese grater Mac Pro is actually more powerful than the highest

00:25:30   grade Mac Pro you could buy, at least until today. It may not be anymore.

00:25:34   So these are both categories with issues. But I think the Mac Mini will continue

00:25:39   to be around. They even said that it has Pro...

00:25:41   I believe one of the quotes from an Apple executive said, I think Schiller,

00:25:44   said that the Mac Mini has its Pro users as well, but it's got a very different

00:25:48   profile. So maybe even in the pro context, you know, we know people who use Mac

00:25:53   Mini and all sorts of things. Pro, I see it in like music environments and, you

00:25:57   know, in audio environments and there are lots of places where it's useful to have

00:26:00   a Mac, to stick a Mac Mini. So I don't think it's going to go away either. The

00:26:04   only question to me is, you know, does Apple make the Mac Mini a low-end

00:26:09   configuration of what is currently like they're working on as a Mac Pro and say

00:26:13   like we have one standalone Mac and you can get a cheap version or a super

00:26:17   expensive version or if that i think the easiest thing would be just keep it

00:26:20   rolling right i mean if that mac mini enclosure and the and the design inside

00:26:24   work more or less just update the processor every couple of years and call

00:26:28   it good

00:26:29   of all of the macs in the entire line laptops desktops the whole shebang it is

00:26:34   the one that requires the least amount

00:26:36   and just it

00:26:37   not even necessarily requires from a technical perspective which is from a

00:26:41   custom perspective like it is the one that needs the less attention

00:26:45   And as long as they keep it, it's going to remain a product,

00:26:49   and they just put new bumps in it every couple of years,

00:26:52   that's fine.

00:26:54   I think it's fine.

00:26:55   - Yeah, so the Mac Mini has gone two years without an update.

00:26:59   But it previously, it was updated.

00:27:03   There was a gap of, this is thanks to N. Creminz

00:27:08   in the chat room, there was a gap of more than,

00:27:13   this is not the record.

00:27:14   The gap between October 2012 and October 2014 was 723 days.

00:27:22   So it's more but not a lot more. And there was also a 574 gap.

00:27:27   So I guess it is a record but not by much.

00:27:29   I mean the Mac Mini was ignored for two years before and now it's been ignored for three years.

00:27:34   Or two and a half years. Yeah, two and a half years.

00:27:37   Maybe it gets updated in a year and then not touched for four years.

00:27:40   Yeah, it might get upgraded this summer or this fall.

00:27:43   But then if they do, I can almost assure you that they will then ignore it for

00:27:47   a couple of years at least.

00:27:48   Just because they think that that's the sufficient amount of focus to give to

00:27:53   the Mac Mini.

00:27:54   I hope when they do update the Mac Mini that they do bring in some of those low

00:27:58   end four core configurations again, cuz that was a pretty great system to buy.

00:28:02   That was a pretty powerful Mac Mini, but we'll see.

00:28:06   But anyway, the Mac Mini has a history of not being introduced with a new version

00:28:11   version for at least a couple of years so it's not a it's a record but not by

00:28:15   much. This is exactly what we wanted right? What they've given us today. Like I

00:28:22   mean the collective the collective we of the Apple think piece, podcast, whatever

00:28:27   yeah I think so in the sense that not just in the sense that they've announced

00:28:34   that something will exist not just in the sense that they've updated the

00:28:38   existing Mac Pro which we could argue like why did they even do that and the

00:28:42   answer is because they're still selling that old model and for that price and

00:28:46   it's pretty sad and there are people who still buy it because they need a Mac Pro

00:28:50   they need something about it and they have to buy it. Both of these things

00:28:53   happen because of each other it was one or the other either they wanted to

00:28:57   update the Mac Pro so they had to talk about it or they decided they really

00:29:01   wanted to talk about it so at the same time they also decided to update the Mac

00:29:04   pro right because you they couldn't have done these updates and not said anything

00:29:09   that would have been worse and I think even leaving it there right like

00:29:12   probably it wouldn't solve it wouldn't solve the larger problem which is we can

00:29:16   talk about later about the method by which they disseminated this information

00:29:20   and and why that's a little media inside baseball but but the short version is my

00:29:25   gut feeling is that this is a reaction to the fact that they've tried to tamp

00:29:30   this down twice with statements from Tim Cook and neither have done anything to fix it right

00:29:37   and so this is like all right we're gonna lay it on the table here this time like they went

00:29:41   they went a little bit further with it look who they had in the room Tim wasn't there oh yeah

00:29:46   right right and quite right that it's that it's they know who they need to have software and

00:29:50   hardware heads right craig and phil yeah i mean tim's not the right conduit for that information

00:29:55   but it still feels to me like there were attempts to send the signal, and the signal was rejected.

00:30:01   It's like, no, that's right, you need to give us more than that, friend, for us to get this.

00:30:08   So I think that's interesting. But the larger point is, is this what people wanted in the sense

00:30:15   that they said in advance, "Here's where we're going, and that means that we're no longer in

00:30:23   in the dark about where they're going.

00:30:25   And it puts out, it deprives of oxygen,

00:30:30   all the conversations about whether Apple cares

00:30:34   or not about this.

00:30:35   You can still have a conversation about how much Apple cares

00:30:38   or if they did the right thing or what they messed up.

00:30:40   Absolutely, but it kills the thread that is,

00:30:44   they're not working on anything they've given up.

00:30:47   - Yep.

00:30:47   - And that thread can respawn after this one ships, right?

00:30:51   They'll bring that back

00:30:52   because that will be inevitably a storyline

00:30:54   'cause it has been and it will continue to be.

00:30:57   But it's more than a head fake.

00:30:59   It is a direction of like, we are doing this.

00:31:02   And it calls to mind actually nothing more

00:31:04   than when they did that statement before the last Mac Pro,

00:31:09   where Tim Cook said, we do have a great new solution

00:31:13   for our professional users that we're working on

00:31:16   that will be available next year,

00:31:18   which they did before they did the Trashcan Mac Pro.

00:31:21   And this is more than that, but it's a very similar kind of announcement where they felt

00:31:26   like they needed to send a signal to an unruly pro user base that they were working on something

00:31:31   but it was just going to take some time.

00:31:33   Tamira, what you were just talking about a moment ago, they've tried to do it again but

00:31:36   it didn't work this time.

00:31:37   Right?

00:31:38   Like last time they said we have great professional devices coming and we were like, "Okay then."

00:31:41   This time they tried to do it again and we're like, "No, we need more than that."

00:31:44   The difference was there had been relatively recent, like within a year, speed updates

00:31:49   to the cheese grater. And it'd been too long for the Mac Pro. Right, in this case

00:31:55   it was so stale that that was not going to be enough. I would argue that if the

00:31:59   Mac Pro kept getting hardware updates every year, even if they were minor, that

00:32:04   would have tamped down. There would still be frustration of like why don't they do

00:32:08   more, why don't they make these updates better, but instead they got in this

00:32:12   really weird position, which we've talked about numerous times on the show, that

00:32:16   it's their own fault for being here and we can talk more in a little bit about

00:32:21   why, but the fact remains that this was the spot they were in and they had to

00:32:25   find a way out of it and this is the way out is to very clearly disclose we are

00:32:30   working on something also setting expectations you won't see it at WWDC in

00:32:36   fact you won't see it in 2017. It will be, I'm not sure they said 2018, I think they

00:32:43   just said not this year so look forward in 2019 no it'll be next year I think so

00:32:48   it'll be next year and they don't want to commit everything right like right

00:32:52   let's say it's coming yeah well I like them saying it won't be this year because

00:32:56   that's good because the next thing that would start up is maybe we'll see it at

00:32:59   WWDC like that you know and and and they'll tease it and then it'll ship by

00:33:03   the end of the year and they're like no that's not gonna happen maybe they will

00:33:07   show it tease it this year maybe not but at least we won't expect it right it

00:33:11   doesn't have nothing to expect. I think it's great for Apple to set expectations like this.

00:33:15   This is not a consumer product. This is not a frivolous product. This is not a

00:33:20   product that they can really legitimately worry about sales being

00:33:23   cannibalized because I think they're the only people who are going to buy the

00:33:26   existing Mac Pro as it's been for the last year or two are people who

00:33:29   absolutely have to have it today and are not going to wait because everybody else

00:33:33   is waiting. So they'll wait a little bit longer. So it's a unique position for

00:33:37   Apple to be in, but it allows them to break out of their rules of we never talk about

00:33:42   future product announcements and say, "Okay, we are working on it.

00:33:47   You won't see it until next year, but it does exist, and here are the vaguest parameters

00:33:51   about what we're working on, and let's never speak of it again until we see you in 2018."

00:33:56   You've been covering this stuff more than anyone, for longer, I think.

00:34:00   I can't think of anybody who's been covering Apple product releases longer than you.

00:34:05   Would you have ever imagined that Apple would talk so openly about an unreleased product?

00:34:11   This isn't just a speed bump.

00:34:13   From what they're saying, this is like a brand new design.

00:34:17   I think it's a little less divergent from what Apple does than you might think, only

00:34:25   because Apple's main goal in talking about products before they're released is to avoid

00:34:32   that is because they want to avoid cannibalization.

00:34:35   They want to avoid the Osborne effect for people who are very old.

00:34:39   They may remember that that's a famous computer industry thing named after the guy who ran

00:34:43   the Osborne computer and he preannounced a product and then his company lost all of its

00:34:48   current sales, which is a really bad way to do business.

00:34:51   You want to sell those computers until the day they're replaced.

00:34:56   There's a great podcast, one of those Gimlet creative podcasts.

00:35:00   It's like the eBay one, open for business.

00:35:03   Adina was listening to it once in a house and it was amazing.

00:35:05   I'll put a link in the show notes.

00:35:06   It is telling the story of the Osbourne effect.

00:35:09   I didn't know anything about it, but I knew the phrase.

00:35:11   That is fascinating.

00:35:12   I'll put that in the show notes if anyone's interested.

00:35:14   - Yeah, so I'd say when has Apple announced a product

00:35:18   that it wasn't ready to ship?

00:35:20   And the answer is, you can look at it.

00:35:23   I already mentioned the Mac Pro, which was a head fake,

00:35:26   but it was pretty clearly we're working on a new Mac Pro

00:35:28   and it'll be available next year, or you'll see it next year.

00:35:32   And then everything else is exactly what you'd think, which is they announced the iPod and they shipped it a couple months later.

00:35:38   They announced the Apple Watch and they shipped it six months later.

00:35:41   They announced the ITV, which became the Apple TV, and they shipped it like six or eight months later.

00:35:46   Products that didn't exist before, that couldn't be Osborned, right?

00:35:52   That's when they do a pre-announce.

00:35:54   The iPhone.

00:35:55   The iPhone, great example, six months to ship it.

00:35:59   all of these products that were new.

00:36:01   So the difference with this is just like,

00:36:05   look, I mean, you can see it.

00:36:06   Apple doesn't care if it doesn't sell more

00:36:09   trashcan Mac Pros.

00:36:11   That, right?

00:36:12   Because first off, like I said,

00:36:14   only people buying them now,

00:36:15   the only people who should buy the new speed bumped version

00:36:17   are people who are so desperate,

00:36:20   the only computer they can buy as a Mac Pro

00:36:22   and they have to buy it now.

00:36:23   So they buy it and it's the same person.

00:36:24   And it's like, you're being rip-off.

00:36:26   I think it's literally the same person as last week.

00:36:29   I don't think it's even any different between this week and last week, even though the specs have been updated.

00:36:34   Because it's still not a great buy and it's still outmoded technology.

00:36:38   You're being ripped off if you bought it. If you were someone who was buying it before today,

00:36:42   you're probably still not getting great for your money, but how old it was was like...

00:36:48   Sure, but they kind of are okay that the only people buying this thing... This is a stopgap.

00:36:53   And that's why they're okay saying, "We will have something new next year."

00:36:56   I also think that it's interesting that they did that mention about like great iMac stuff for the high end

00:37:03   because that is also a promise of more things to come.

00:37:07   They're vaguer about it, they're not ready to announce the hardware yet,

00:37:10   but I think it's telling about how little they care about their current Mac Pro sales,

00:37:14   which are probably very small, that they're willing to do this and potentially cut those sales off entirely

00:37:22   Because they are I mean like I said they already know

00:37:24   Nobody's buying the Mac Pro unless they're desperate and they just have to do it

00:37:29   And I don't know who that is but those people do exist

00:37:31   Where they're like I gotta get it and it has to be a Mac Pro and I need to get it today

00:37:35   They're like alright for you. We have one for you. We have a special idea

00:37:40   We don't want me to be working on cooking it up for you handmade in the USA just for you

00:37:45   There is still quite a lot to unpack

00:37:50   Let's take a second break and then we can jump right back into this today's episode is also brought to you by away

00:37:56   Look your luggage shouldn't cost more than your plane ticket. Jason has these arms raised in glory

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00:39:19   - And when you're walking through an airport,

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00:39:29   and now it's only on its back too

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00:39:32   - Do you know what I like doing?

00:39:32   - It's like acrobatics with a case.

00:39:34   - You've got to use your other hand.

00:39:35   So you kind of do it like it's curling

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00:39:55   I only needed to charge my phone the one time while I was waiting in the Heathrow passport

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00:40:01   But I was at about...

00:40:02   I was at a long line.

00:40:03   I was at a long line.

00:40:04   I was at a long line.

00:40:05   I was at a long line.

00:40:06   I was at a long line.

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00:41:13   I would go there if I didn't already have one. That would be nice for me to take a little visit again.

00:41:18   I need a second on this, although you know one of the big suitcases.

00:41:22   We may buy some of the big suitcases. They don't have the batteries in them but

00:41:25   they're still great. But they're still really cool. Still great. Yep. Alright so it turns out

00:41:31   turns out that the trash can Mac Pro was kind of ended up being a bit of a

00:41:37   misplaced bet for Apple.

00:41:38   - Yep, that's I think the best way to put it.

00:41:40   What Craig Federighi said was we designed ourselves

00:41:43   into a bit of a thermal corner.

00:41:46   The idea here is that Apple thought that the future

00:41:51   of high performance professional stuff was multiple GPUs.

00:41:56   So the Mac Pro trashcan, for those who don't know,

00:41:59   is on the inside, it's a triangle.

00:42:01   It's basically in the very center, it's got the fan core.

00:42:04   the fan blows from the bottom, blows it out the top,

00:42:08   or sucks it from the top and puts it out.

00:42:11   But anyway, there's an air chamber

00:42:12   right down the center of it.

00:42:14   And that's for cooling, and it blows it out the top.

00:42:19   Yep, and so in the triangle around it,

00:42:22   there are these three motherboards, or three boards,

00:42:25   and one of them has the processor on it,

00:42:27   one of them has GPU one, and one of them has GPU two.

00:42:30   So that was the whole design.

00:42:33   and Apple's like this is going to be great, this is the way of the future.

00:42:36   Turns out, it's not.

00:42:40   Turns out the way that this went, Apple tried to steer the industry, right?

00:42:45   Apple tried to do one of those things where it's like we're visionary, this is going to happen,

00:42:48   and it totally didn't happen.

00:42:49   Instead, it turns out that the future was pretty much what the present was back then,

00:42:53   which was we're going to make GPUs faster and faster and more powerful and more powerful, single GPUs.

00:42:59   and what happens Myke when you make a chip faster and faster and more powerful?

00:43:05   It gets hotter and hotter. It gets hotter and hotter and what Craig Federighi said

00:43:10   here is that the problem with that is they became unable to put high-end GPUs

00:43:18   in the Mac Pro because they couldn't cool them fast enough. That they had

00:43:23   balanced this design on a head of a pin, that they had made this three design

00:43:28   thing and that limited the amount of thermal capacity that they had. And it's a big admission

00:43:34   from them. They didn't talk about this in terms of it being a design failure, but it's

00:43:40   a failure of vision and a failure of design, or some combination thereof. They designed

00:43:45   it the way they knew what they were doing when they designed it. The problem was they

00:43:48   were designing for factors that turned out not to be true and that they couldn't recover

00:43:52   from. And I think that is the most telling explanation about why the Mac Pro has been

00:43:57   sitting there like a lump for the last few years is they spent too much time

00:44:02   trying to fix it I think right like that could be that they they've wasted time

00:44:07   in trying to fit stuff into this machine and they could just never get out instead

00:44:12   of just declaring a debt yeah they may have tried for a couple of years like

00:44:15   would have wasted money right and we may have been why the upgrades didn't happen

00:44:19   at all and then they finally had a moment where they realized we just got

00:44:22   to throw this thing away this is not serving anybody pushed it past the point

00:44:26   where it's in use anymore. Or the way they would say it is not that it's not serving anybody,

00:44:30   but it's not serving enough of a group of users. There's still a group of users that it's not

00:44:35   serving. And those people aren't being served well enough. The people that it is serving,

00:44:39   the people that are buying it and using it and needing it, they're not getting the experience

00:44:43   that Apple wants them to have. So something Shida said as well, as we've said, we made something

00:44:48   bold that we thought would be great for the majority of our Mac Pro users, and what we

00:44:52   discovered was that it was great for some and not others enough so that we

00:44:55   need to take another path so they're basically saying look some people are

00:44:59   okay with it but we know that we failed yeah we failed people that's it and and

00:45:04   at one point one of the executives it might have been Schiller said use the

00:45:09   word sorry yeah he says sorry so that we're sorry to these users that have

00:45:14   been frustrated by it yeah this is I know that people are gonna say well

00:45:18   Well Apple didn't really say whatever.

00:45:22   This is the most you will ever get out of Apple.

00:45:24   This is Apple.

00:45:26   If you want more contrition than this from Apple, you're never gonna get it.

00:45:30   You're never gonna get it because they're never gonna be more contrite than this.

00:45:33   This is them saying, "We blew it.

00:45:35   We had a failure of vision.

00:45:38   It led to our design going in a bad direction.

00:45:41   We failed to support some of our users and we're sorry.

00:45:44   I know that they have too much pride even in this statement to come out and say it in

00:45:48   that way because it's PR and they want to have it be a positive spin.

00:45:51   You know, and a positive spin is "Yay! New Mac Pros are coming!" and Apple recommits

00:45:56   to the high end.

00:45:58   But you know, you can read it, unless you are willfully trying to ignore what they say,

00:46:03   you can read it very clearly here that they're admitting they blew it.

00:46:06   And that's good because, I mean, they blew it, right?

00:46:09   The fact that they give detail about why they blew it is fascinating to me because they

00:46:14   They could have probably just kind of whistled and said, "Yeah, it wasn't for everyone.

00:46:19   We learned our lesson.

00:46:20   We're going to do something different.

00:46:21   It'll be better."

00:46:22   But instead, they went into some detail, which is, "We designed this thing for something

00:46:27   that it turned out to be completely wrong for, and that's why it's a goner."

00:46:32   From Shilla, "The current Mac Pro, as you said a few times, was constrained thermally,

00:46:36   and it restricted our ability to upgrade it.

00:46:37   And for that, we're sorry to disappoint customers who wanted that.

00:46:41   And we've asked the team to go and re-architect and design something great for the future

00:46:45   for those Mac Pro customers who want more expandability, more upgradeability in the

00:46:48   future, it will meet more of those needs.

00:46:51   So there you go, like, we are sorry to disappoint, is what they're saying.

00:46:54   Right.

00:46:55   So a lot of these quotes are coming from John Gruber's piece, which you should go and read.

00:46:59   Like, we'll put links in the show notes on that, but John goes into detail a lot about

00:47:02   like just his experience of being in this environment, which is also kind of fascinating.

00:47:05   But yeah, so you know, as well, like they don't, Apple do not go into any details on

00:47:11   what stage they're in, the design process, they're not talking about that, like Schiller

00:47:14   said, we're just not going to.

00:47:17   But they're looking to do something that can be supported for a long time with customers

00:47:20   of updates and upgrades throughout the year.

00:47:23   We'll take the time it takes to do that.

00:47:25   And that is the, where the modular concept comes from, I think, which is the idea, it

00:47:30   sounds to me, and we'll see it in practice, right, but it sounds to me what Schiller's

00:47:33   saying there is okay you're right we when we design this new thing it needs

00:47:39   to be something that we can upgrade regularly like we get it that pro users

00:47:45   want the cutting edge and we can't deliver it right now and so that's not

00:47:49   too fancy with that's right and so whether that is we're going to release

00:47:54   this and then once a year doing a processor upgrade or or maybe it

00:47:59   certainly open the certainly opens the possibility that what they're really

00:48:02   saying is we will design this thing so that whenever there's a new CPU in the

00:48:08   class that we support we will we will rapidly update these things because

00:48:15   that ideally what you'd want for and what what the pros want is Intel comes

00:48:19   up with a new processor that is appropriate for this this machine and

00:48:23   within a small time horizon Apple is selling that in the Mac Pro so that's

00:48:29   That's what you want.

00:48:30   That like in that kind of guise that you could just buy from Intel and put it in yourself.

00:48:37   Do you think they'd ever make a computer like that?

00:48:40   I don't think they would intentionally make something like that.

00:48:42   I think it's more likely that they would, that the engineering choices they make in

00:48:47   making it upgradeable by them internally would have the side effect of it being upgradeable

00:48:53   externally.

00:48:54   It's possible.

00:48:56   if it makes sense for them to do it that way, they'll do it.

00:49:00   But it's going to be one of those aftermarket things where I feel like more likely it's

00:49:05   going to be an aftermarket thing.

00:49:06   It would be great if they put the GPUs on a card and said, "hey pro users, upgrade it

00:49:12   yourself.

00:49:13   Go for it.

00:49:14   Knock yourself out."

00:49:15   I feel like they might go middle of the road.

00:49:18   You won't be able to pop out everything, but you might be able to do more than you can

00:49:23   currently do.

00:49:24   So it returns to a world that is more like the cheese grater, right?

00:49:30   Where you have the ability to pop out more stuff.

00:49:33   You can upgrade the graphics card and stuff in those, can't you?

00:49:36   So they might go back to that world.

00:49:38   Yeah, it's possible.

00:49:39   It's possible.

00:49:40   My gut feeling is that they won't, like I said, my gut feeling is they won't do it as

00:49:47   something they, "hey it would be nice if third parties could sell graphics cards for this,

00:49:51   that we're then gonna have to deal with,

00:49:53   like configuration and support and drivers

00:49:55   and things like that.

00:49:56   But it may be a side effect.

00:49:57   - They also, I guess, don't wanna just sell one of these

00:50:00   to people and then they keep it for 20 years.

00:50:02   - Right. - Right?

00:50:03   They probably-- - Like John Siracusa.

00:50:04   - Yeah, they probably wanna make something that,

00:50:07   at least 'cause it's such a small market

00:50:09   and they're putting all this time in again,

00:50:11   that people are gonna buy 'em maybe once every three,

00:50:14   four years or something.

00:50:16   It is really interesting to me that they're doing this.

00:50:19   I mean, I'm happy they're doing it.

00:50:20   pleased but I don't know if they're ever going to see the money back that they're

00:50:25   going to invest in this thing if you consider the loss of the the trash can

00:50:28   right that the trash can must be a loss to Apple from an R&D perspective now.

00:50:33   I think it's I think it's a cost of doing business is they want to be in the

00:50:35   Mac business and the Mac business requires they have a high-end Pro system

00:50:38   and they made a bet on the Mac Pro trash can and it's a failure and it's a

00:50:44   rare abject product failure from Apple. Now we you know it doesn't happen often

00:50:49   People who are agitated about the touch bar may say that that's a failure. We'll see.

00:50:54   But it will take Apple trashing it for it to be an official declaration of failure.

00:51:00   Trash the can.

00:51:01   But they trashed the can, or they're in the process.

00:51:04   They updated the can in the process of trashing it. It's an interesting decision.

00:51:10   Sometimes you gotta live with what you got.

00:51:13   - They also spent some time talking about the Mac in general

00:51:17   to I think alleviate the concerns.

00:51:21   Federighi just like head on, like talks about the fact

00:51:25   that people, as he refers to on internet forums,

00:51:28   are concerned that Apple doesn't care about the Mac anymore.

00:51:32   - Websites and podcasts are forums on the internet.

00:51:36   - It depends on your, like how he's using the word, right?

00:51:39   'Cause forum could just mean an avenue

00:51:42   for contributing thought.

00:51:44   I mean, what he's talking about is podcasts and blogs,

00:51:48   right, about the concern that people have about,

00:51:52   like, and he talks about it, right,

00:51:54   if they release an iPad or they release any new product,

00:51:57   but they don't touch the Mac,

00:51:58   then it means that they don't care about the Mac anymore,

00:52:01   right, and that they're,

00:52:04   does it mean that if they're not updating the product

00:52:06   that I love, that they don't care about my product?

00:52:09   And he says, "I understand how that will come out in the form of concern that this is happening to you."

00:52:15   But they say, "The Mac, we say it over and over again, is here to stay. It is a huge part of our future. We are deeply invested in it."

00:52:25   Three years ago, Federighi and Schiller told me in person on the occasion of the 30th anniversary of the Mac, and I quote, "The Mac goes on forever."

00:52:37   He's absolutely right to say, "Apple has been consistent on this point, we care about the Mac."

00:52:43   In fact, they used this opportunity, Federighi did especially, to try to bat down this idea that the existence of the iPad means the Mac isn't important anymore.

00:52:54   And they said, "People talk about the iPad and it creates a sense of insecurity. What does this mean?"

00:53:02   but they say it's not a zero-sum game.

00:53:05   That they care about the iPad, they care about the Mac, they care about the iPhone,

00:53:08   these are all product lines they care about,

00:53:10   and they're not taking Steam away from one in order to inject it in the other.

00:53:16   Now, in the end, they're one company, but companies can scale.

00:53:21   So I think their argument here is that as their product line grows,

00:53:25   they're growing and they're able to keep this attention.

00:53:28   We can argue about whether Apple is living up to this promise or not, but the argument

00:53:36   that Apple is not making promises, you can't make, right?

00:53:39   Because they've restated it again.

00:53:42   It could not have been more recent, saying "No, it's not a zero-sum game, we do love

00:53:46   the iPad, but that doesn't mean we love the Mac any less, and we are going to keep on

00:53:51   doing this, it's part of our future, and we want to invest in it."

00:53:55   We can all argue the details, but unless you just want to say they're a bunch of liars

00:54:00   and they don't mean it, I think you have to at least give them credit for committing to

00:54:05   the Mac here.

00:54:06   We can talk about the details of whether it's a good commitment, whether they're really

00:54:10   capable of committing at the level that's required.

00:54:13   We can debate all of that, but it is interesting to see them feel they needed to make this

00:54:18   affirmation, to feel that they needed to put it in the context of the iPad, right?

00:54:24   is a big part of the conversation on internet forums.

00:54:29   So it's good to hear, right?

00:54:30   It's good to hear that.

00:54:31   Because they didn't need, that's, talk about things in this event that they didn't need

00:54:35   to say, that they went out of their way to say, that is a big one.

00:54:39   Shilla doubled down.

00:54:40   We're committed to the Mac.

00:54:41   We've got great talent on the Mac, both hardware and software.

00:54:44   We've got products planned for the future and as far as our horizon line can see, the

00:54:49   is a core component of the things Apple delivers including to our pro customers.

00:54:54   Now technically the horizon line is as far as the person observing it can see and as

00:55:01   far as the horizon line can see is that like an even further out beyond I can't see it

00:55:07   but the horizon line tells me that it doesn't see it either or is this one of those things

00:55:11   where it's like infinity plus one probably just means as far as to the horizon.

00:55:17   And it looks like we can look forward to the Inside Apple Pro podcast coming quite soon.

00:55:23   As Sheila says, "We're really serious about this idea that we want to figure out how to

00:55:27   better communicate with pros.

00:55:29   We understand their jobs, rely on this stuff, they make important decisions about this stuff,

00:55:33   they need to hear from us.

00:55:35   We do have a process we need to go through to make products and not tell competitors

00:55:38   what we're doing and on and on.

00:55:40   But we're trying to have it not all be one way and find the right balance."

00:55:44   I think this is really interesting.

00:55:47   is where... Here's the thing. Again, Shiller, if you want to come on the show, you know,

00:55:51   as part of your outreach for professionals. Phil knows who I am. It's cool. I have had

00:55:57   great interactions with Phil, but the idea here, I think, is a good one because what

00:56:05   he seems to be potentially suggesting, and this goes back to, like, Apple's culture changing,

00:56:11   is consumer products need to be surprises.

00:56:16   But enterprise products, business products,

00:56:21   professional products don't.

00:56:25   Bottom line, they don't.

00:56:26   - They're buying them anyway.

00:56:27   - That's right.

00:56:28   Big reveal of the, the curtain reveal

00:56:30   that Steve Jobs was so great at

00:56:32   is great for consumer products.

00:56:35   But I think you could really make an argument

00:56:37   that on the professional level,

00:56:38   and the Mac Pro is the perfect example of this,

00:56:41   Is anything gained by doing a big reveal on the Mac Pro?

00:56:45   As opposed, and I would say, no, in fact, what is gained is giving a roadmap

00:56:50   and being clear about what your update strategy is going to be in the long run.

00:56:54   Back in the day, I learned this when I started in this business, Mac Week existed.

00:56:58   It was a weekly newspaper, essentially, about what was going on in the Mac.

00:57:01   The entire premise of Mac Week was that they rooted out what Apple was going to do next,

00:57:06   when Apple wouldn't say because their audience which was decision makers who

00:57:11   spent a lot of money on computer hardware wanted to plan their buying

00:57:15   decisions. Now I'll grant you a little bit of that was a lie.

00:57:18   People like to know what the rumors are just in general and people would lie to

00:57:22   get copies of Mac Week. But the fundamental premise is true which is

00:57:25   professional markets people who spent a lot of money whether they're individuals

00:57:30   or they're big corporations for stuff like this that doesn't have any consumer

00:57:35   impact, it's not going to be a big holiday seller, they would rather get

00:57:40   information up front that makes them confident investing hundreds of

00:57:43   thousands of dollars in hardware, rather than being like, "well, I could plan my

00:57:48   budget, but instead I'm going to wait for somebody on stage to pull some, you know,

00:57:52   pull a drape off of a product and reveal it." Now, I think it's

00:58:00   interesting the venue that they chose to announce this, because most of the people

00:58:04   that they talk to, while all of them are excellent tech journalists, most of the

00:58:09   channels they write for speak to a broad consumer audience, which to... for whom... I

00:58:16   mean, I love, I love BuzzFeed. I love Mashable.

00:58:21   Oh, well, okay, Mashable's fine. I love BuzzFeed.

00:58:24   Sorry, title suggestion. Mashable and Guinness are together in the fine group.

00:58:29   No, they're fine, and Lance is great, and Lance has been doing this a long time.

00:58:32   The people are great.

00:58:33   But some of those brands, those are consumer brands.

00:58:35   The BuzzFeed audience, the BuzzFeed tech audience

00:58:38   does not care about the Mac Pro, right?

00:58:41   So I think that's a little weird.

00:58:43   Like Gruber I think is the perfect,

00:58:45   like if there was one person for whom everybody

00:58:47   who cares about the Mac Pro is going to get the information,

00:58:50   it's somebody like John Gruber.

00:58:52   So that part's a little bit weird,

00:58:54   but the truth behind this statement still goes,

00:58:56   which is this isn't a product Apple should play coy about.

00:59:00   Apple should be more transparent about this.

00:59:01   Apple should get over its obsession with secrecy about something like this.

00:59:05   In fact, Apple would be better taking a book from taking a page out of Microsoft's playbook,

00:59:10   which has played this game for decades now, which is when you're communicating with businesses,

00:59:16   just tell them what you're going to do.

00:59:18   Not only is that good for their planning purposes, but it actually allows you to blunt the competition

00:59:24   because you've now pre-announced what you're going to do and that makes it harder for the

00:59:27   competition.

00:59:28   You know, if you don't announce anything, there's a window where the competition comes out with something better,

00:59:33   and then they're better than you, and you've got nothing to say, and so they can make hay with that.

00:59:38   But if Apple's out on the record as saying, "Look, this is what we're doing in six months,"

00:59:41   makes it a lot harder for somebody else to come in and say, "Hey, what's Apple got for you? I've got this thing today."

00:59:48   I think it's good. I think it's a good move. I think Apple could really move in that direction with products like this.

00:59:52   Apple doesn't have a lot of products like this. This is a product that has no appeal to consumers.

00:59:56   literally zero appeal to consumers.

00:59:58   If anything, you want to stop consumers from buying.

01:00:01   I'm not sure Apple has another single product like this.

01:00:04   But it has this one, so why not disclose?

01:00:08   Let's talk a bit about the briefing

01:00:11   from what we know, right?

01:00:13   Mostly from what Gruber has told us and a little bit from Panserino as well.

01:00:17   It happened in Apple's product realization lab, which is effectively,

01:00:22   I think, kind of internally called like where the Macs are made.

01:00:26   I haven't decided whether this is a brilliant bit of theater or whether they literally have no place else to host something like this because they're moving everybody to campus too.

01:00:35   They wanted to walk people through this room.

01:00:37   Yeah, but again, maybe it's a little from column A and a little from column B, like where are we gonna put them?

01:00:41   And it's like we'll do a fancy meeting in some place that impresses upon you this.

01:00:48   Hotels.

01:00:48   They could clean up a conference room.

01:00:49   Anything, right?

01:00:50   Like they chose this place to like really set the scene of like look at all the Macs we've made.

01:00:55   It's similar to when you get the Johnny Ive interview in the Johnny Ive studio.

01:00:57   It's similar to after the Antennagate thing where a bunch of us were taken over to the the Anechoic chamber.

01:01:03   I was trying to think of that word earlier. Anechoic.

01:01:05   Anechoic, yes.

01:01:06   That's like one of the, you know, I think we spoke about this in the show every now and then.

01:01:09   We all find out a new phrase and like use it a bunch, right?

01:01:12   Because they told us a new thing, like chamfer.

01:01:14   Yes.

01:01:15   I prefer my anechoic chambers to be chamfered.

01:01:18   There were nine people at the table.

01:01:19   Yes.

01:01:20   This is from John Gruber.

01:01:21   Phil Schiller was there, Federighi was there.

01:01:23   John Turnus, who is the vice president of hardware engineering in charge of the Mac.

01:01:27   That's a new name for us. That's also a nice uh there yes there is a guy in charge of Mac hardware.

01:01:33   Here he is. Bill Evans from PR. Yep. Matthew Panzareno, TechCrunch,

01:01:38   Mark Zulanov of Mashable, Inafrid of Axios, John Paxowski of BuzzFeed, and John Gruber of Don't Fireball.

01:01:44   Yep. Who wasn't there? Everybody else. But like who should who when you look at that list because

01:01:51   Because you said that you find it weird that Buzzfeed and Mashable were there, so who should

01:01:56   have been there?

01:01:57   I think they got the right guy there, because it's Grouper.

01:02:01   And Panzareno, I think TechCrunch, although technically it's about the business of technology,

01:02:08   at least they are a very arcane site for a very specific group of users, and Panzareno

01:02:16   is the best, right?

01:02:18   He knows that stuff down.

01:02:20   In fact, their coverage of Apple detail is way more than what TechCrunch probably should have.

01:02:25   But they've got Matthew Pansarino.

01:02:27   They've got Matthew Pansarino, so why not cover it? Because he can cover it, so let him cover it.

01:02:32   And the other people are all great journalists, I'm just not sure that they're...

01:02:36   So it's fine, and they reach great audiences.

01:02:38   I mean, Ina Fried, Axios is new, but I think that's paying her respect as a tech journalist to have her be there.

01:02:47   Even though she's moved to a different outlet.

01:02:51   And then as for BuzzFeed and Mashable, those are great people.

01:02:56   I'm not sure their audiences are a great match.

01:02:59   I was joking before we got started that one of the challenges is Apple PR now invites

01:03:04   YouTubers to events but they didn't...

01:03:08   MKBHD got an exclusive interview after the MacBook Pro.

01:03:11   Right.

01:03:12   As he showed always forever.

01:03:13   So you could argue that maybe maybe MKBHD should have been at this event. Well, they wouldn't let him make a video

01:03:18   Well, that's the thing, right?

01:03:19   so I can I can see that and then podcasters would be the same way and I'm not saying us but like

01:03:24   Given how much that ATP covered this subject would they invite Marco and would he come and what do you want?

01:03:30   What do you want to do it? I don't know that might not be the best fit John Syracuse

01:03:33   I didn't even mention because he wouldn't want to come and Casey Liss would turn them down. So

01:03:37   But

01:03:40   So I don't know. I don't know what the right answer is. The challenge is there isn't

01:03:45   Ars Technica maybe? There used to be you could lift list off the litany of

01:03:51   publications that care about the high-end computing market and

01:03:56   They kind of are not prominent anymore. They do exist, but they're kind of not prominent anymore

01:04:02   I would honestly say that these audiences these markets they have turned to podcasts

01:04:07   It doesn't make sense to me why they don't invite like the ATP crew

01:04:12   They just have they just haven't gotten I think I think that's it's gonna take them some time to warm up to that

01:04:18   frustrates me

01:04:19   I think the advantage of inviting John Grouper is that he has his he has his very broad and and deep technical

01:04:24   Audience of daring fireball and the talk show. Yeah, and so it's a great twofer

01:04:29   He is a great you were saying great choice like we're saying this before they could have just invited John

01:04:34   Like this could have just been an exclusive for daring fireball and it would have reached everyone it needed to I

01:04:38   I agree. I mean that's I I think I think it's great that they invited more

01:04:44   They may have felt like they wanted more coverage

01:04:46   But I think better because I personally needed to invite was John Gruber because everybody like, you know

01:04:51   I've read I read Johnson but panzerinos as well before

01:04:54   Because this broke like an hour before I was recording connected and

01:04:59   - So, Panzerino gave another insight which was great.

01:05:02   Like, his opinion was really great.

01:05:04   But, like, if all they were doing

01:05:06   were trying to reach the pros,

01:05:07   then Darren Fireball would reach everyone they needed.

01:05:10   - I would say, you know, somebody like Jim Dalrymple,

01:05:13   because he's got a very broad audience,

01:05:15   although the loop is a small site,

01:05:17   and I can say that because I'm an even smaller site, right?

01:05:20   Six Colors is an even smaller site.

01:05:21   But at least Jim has had great relationships with Apple

01:05:25   and is listened to about these things.

01:05:28   And like ours is a good example of somebody,

01:05:32   a site that still has a lot of technical depth.

01:05:37   But you know, but it's tough.

01:05:39   I'm not saying this is a no brainer

01:05:41   and they miss some people who are obvious.

01:05:43   - It's just interesting to see who was there and who wasn't.

01:05:44   - If I was still at Macworld,

01:05:45   I would be super bummed out that I didn't get invited,

01:05:47   but I'm not at Macworld anymore

01:05:48   and I don't have that bully pulpit anymore.

01:05:50   But you know, there was a day, I guess,

01:05:52   is what I'm really saying,

01:05:53   when you could count on a bunch of kind of enterprise

01:05:58   high-end creative sites or magazines or newspapers that you could say it and

01:06:04   that doesn't really exist anymore because you're right it has it has gone

01:06:08   to blogs and the web and the reality is that you know there are only

01:06:12   some bloggers that Apple's comfortable with but these some of these websites

01:06:15   are you know they're great they're great sites again I feel like this is going to

01:06:19   come out as being like Jason's got sour grapes that he wasn't invited first off

01:06:23   I wasn't available but more than that it's like no I have a little site I'm

01:06:28   I'm just interested in the mismatch of news that is very important to us because we've

01:06:33   been talking about all this time, but like the bulk of people even reading the tech section

01:06:38   of BuzzFeed just don't care.

01:06:40   I mean it's an esoteric product for the very high end.

01:06:43   I'm not sure it's that important.

01:06:44   It's great because you've got a great writer who you're comfortable with if you're Apple

01:06:49   that you invite to do it.

01:06:50   And so that's what they did.

01:06:51   But it is a little weird.

01:06:52   It is a little weird of a list.

01:06:54   I look at this list and my mind is boggled that there were no Vox Media properties of this.

01:06:59   It's a little surprising. No Recode, no Verge. Like, that is very surprising to me. Like, surely,

01:07:05   surely The Verge has a higher audience than Buzzfeed Tech.

01:07:12   CNET is another not a bad example. Or Mashable's tech. Maybe even for this type of thing,

01:07:20   bigger than TechCrunch. People go to TechCrunch for the moves and shakes in Silicon Valley.

01:07:24   It's entirely possible. In fact, given how Apple pried, I think Apple PR, so much of it is, I don't know if they pride themselves on it, so much of it is personal relationships.

01:07:33   My best guess is that whoever originated this idea, and it was probably Phil, said, "These are people..."

01:07:43   Well, it's not even like, "These are the people who are gonna get what we have to say right."

01:07:49   Okay, because it's gonna be a pre-brief and they're gonna write their stories

01:07:52   Which means that's a leap of faith for Apple because Apple has to say

01:07:56   Here's what we're saying now go away and write it and we'll see what what you come up with

01:08:02   So and you could spin that as being these are the people that Apple considers dependable sources for their PR

01:08:07   I think that's unfair, but people will spin it that way and already have been but I do think that Apple

01:08:12   Doesn't invite you if they're not comfortable with you and these are writers Apple trust trusts

01:08:18   To get it right not necessarily to parrot what they say but to get it right

01:08:22   In this context and so a bottom line

01:08:25   I think that's why because like in as a great example like the axios audience is not the same as the recode audience

01:08:31   It's building and it may be great someday, but they trust you know, and they should and so it's great that they invited her

01:08:36   So let's talk about like they get some statistics today, which I think

01:08:41   Highlight why it is strange to go to like broader tech websites

01:08:47   Apple's Mac sales comprise 20% desktop, 80% laptop.

01:08:52   So for the, like there is 20% of their entire market,

01:08:58   which may even be interested

01:09:00   in these announcements today, right?

01:09:02   And of those 20%, a single digit is Mac Pro customers.

01:09:09   Less than a single digit.

01:09:12   - Well, it's not no digits, there's nothing less than--

01:09:14   - You know what I mean, like a low single digit.

01:09:16   - Yeah, this is good because they dropped out the mix

01:09:20   of desktop and laptop.

01:09:20   They used to report desktop units and laptop units of Macs

01:09:23   and they stopped.

01:09:25   And so I've been saying for a while now

01:09:27   that somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 of Macs sold

01:09:32   our laptops because those were what the numbers

01:09:35   were regularly.

01:09:36   They were going closer to 75%,

01:09:39   but we haven't had hard numbers there.

01:09:42   And so for them to disclose that it's 80% laptops--

01:09:45   - Well then, it's more laptops than you even thought.

01:09:49   - Yeah, so now, yeah, so it's gone,

01:09:50   since I've been tracking that number,

01:09:52   it's gone from two thirds to three quarters to four fifths now.

01:09:57   It's full on 80% laptops.

01:10:00   And yeah, what do you think most of those desktop sales are?

01:10:03   They're iMacs.

01:10:05   So what's left over is tiny numbers

01:10:08   for the Mac Mini and the Mac Pro.

01:10:11   MacBook Pro sales are up 20% year on year for Q1.

01:10:15   I think that's a false flag.

01:10:17   I don't think that it's saying that the touch bar's amazing.

01:10:21   I think it's just saying--

01:10:22   - The new Mac.

01:10:23   - People were waiting, it was pent up demand.

01:10:26   - I agree.

01:10:26   - And 15% of all Mac customers, says Phil Schiller,

01:10:31   use a pro category app multiple times a week,

01:10:34   and I think it's 30% use one once a week.

01:10:37   And they consider their pro apps,

01:10:39   I guess like something like Photoshop or something

01:10:41   All of this just goes to indicate this market is small. Yes, it is small

01:10:47   Yes, and that's important to keep in mind when you think about everything they've done when your favorite tech podcast

01:10:53   Huh and it might not be this one

01:10:56   But when your favorite tech podcast well my favorite tech podcast ATP, right?

01:11:01   Devotes so much time to this topic and has historically for its entire run

01:11:06   But I assume it's they have a very large percentage of their audience that want to hear it.

01:11:09   I agree, but this is the point. It may be your favorite tech pod guest. It may be your favorite tech podcasters favorite subject.

01:11:16   It may matter to you. This is always the challenge, right? Just because it matters the world to you,

01:11:21   just because it matters the world to your friends and the people you listen to,

01:11:25   you can't lose perspective of the fact that for a lot of people it doesn't matter and it's not important.

01:11:32   And so it's just something to keep in mind that it's an important...

01:11:37   Just because it's small doesn't mean it's not important,

01:11:40   but it does mean that for the vast majority of the people who care about Apple products in general,

01:11:45   or even the Mac in particular, it doesn't matter to them.

01:11:48   This is a niche product. It's an important niche product. It should exist.

01:11:52   I'm glad that it's going to exist.

01:11:54   But let's not forget that the number of people who actually need a Mac Pro,

01:11:59   even in our audience, I would imagine, is small.

01:12:02   And will remain so, even if there's a snazzy new model in a year.

01:12:06   Anything else to say on this?

01:12:10   No, I am...

01:12:13   Bumshell of a day.

01:12:14   I am relieved that Apple...

01:12:16   This has been my frustration with the two Tim Cook headfakes, right?

01:12:20   Is that they really seem like, "Calm down, it's gonna be okay."

01:12:24   "Nah, by saying it's gonna be okay, he means it's not going to be okay!"

01:12:28   That was like the answer. It's the internet, it happens, right? So he's like, "No, no, no. It's fine."

01:12:32   "Ah, that means not fine. He's just saying it's fine. It's like when Jason said Guinness is fine.

01:12:38   It means that he doesn't really love it, and I want him to love it."

01:12:42   So I'm glad they finally are like, "Alright, listen. Listen, you people. Here are the details."

01:12:49   Good. It's great that they did it. It at the very least changes the debate to something more tangible

01:12:56   then Apple doesn't care and I don't think it's going to be around anymore.

01:12:59   And I think it perhaps suggests that Apple is going to open up about this stuff more in the

01:13:04   future, which I think it should. Take a break? This week's episode is also brought to you by

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01:15:17   show and relay FM. Blue Apron, a better way to cook. Time for Ask Upgrade. Christopher

01:15:27   asks, the question probably only Myke can answer, what Apple device color is best for

01:15:32   stickers? So I have recently become partial to the gold devices for this, so my regular

01:15:39   size iPad Pro, the 9.7, I keep calling it the 10.5 because I'm like so set on this happening.

01:15:46   living in the future. That is gold and so is my MacBook Adorable. That's gold and I

01:15:50   really like that it's just something different. It's an interesting backdrop color. I'm interested

01:15:55   in seeing what rose gold might look like or maybe like red or you know give me a color.

01:16:00   Let me see what I can do. I think maybe more, I haven't tried it on any of the, well I got

01:16:06   the dark grey one. Space grey. Space grey. And that looks pretty good but it's still

01:16:10   too close to silver. Go for the colors. Interesting. I have no opinion about that. Although I will

01:16:15   point out that I have my MacBook Air with me today and there is a decal on it.

01:16:19   It has the rainbow one. I try and get the rainbow stickers for all my devices.

01:16:24   Marco asks, "Is there any Twitter client that lets me group who I follow, like sports people,

01:16:29   tech people and professional related people?" I feel like lists is what Marco's looking

01:16:35   for here. I don't know if you've tried that.

01:16:37   I use lists all the time and that's the answer. Twitter has a feature called Lists, it's built

01:16:41   into Twitter.

01:16:42   And they can be private.

01:16:43   Twitter clients have that built in as well that you can build them and you can

01:16:46   add a person instead of following them you add them to a list you can add

01:16:50   them to multiple lists. So I have a sports list that is a curated list of

01:16:56   sports journalists and athletes and things like that. It's people I'm

01:16:59   interested in who say interesting things and it's great. Not only is it great to

01:17:03   read but it's also great because Nuzzle has a feature that you can

01:17:08   Nuzzle is the service that looks at your social media feed and provides news

01:17:12   headlines you can also use your lists to feed Nuzzle separately and that's great

01:17:20   because that creates a sports news reading list and I also have a space and

01:17:23   science list that is curated of journalists and scientists and things

01:17:29   like that who cover space and science and I love it so that's I couldn't

01:17:33   recommend more all reputable Twitter clients support lists as does Twitter

01:17:37   itself. Change it so that the list becomes your timeline essentially. Right, so it looks

01:17:43   like it's just your timeline but it's that specific list of people. That's one of the

01:17:46   things I love about, since I use Twitterific, is that the lists interface and the support

01:17:51   is really great for it. I've got a little sidebar with all my lists and I can even make

01:17:55   one of my icons like my timeline and my replies, I have them for my two lists too. Oh nice.

01:18:00   And a saved search. So like in the little tabs, like the little tab thing you can change

01:18:04   them to?

01:18:05   Yeah, mine is timeline mentions a saved search for the incomparable so I can see if people

01:18:12   are talking to the incomparable instead of me and then sports and science.

01:18:16   That sounds pretty sweet.

01:18:17   It's great.

01:18:18   Michael asked, "Any suggestions for a media player that can access files from Dropbox

01:18:23   on iOS?"

01:18:24   I don't know.

01:18:25   I wondered if this is one that the Upgradients can help with.

01:18:29   I tried to look for something.

01:18:30   I found an app called equity, but that's just like to load to play your local music and stuff

01:18:35   But this is like to take files from Dropbox and play them

01:18:38   I don't know if it would maybe pull them from the web or it would like pull them and download them

01:18:43   I I couldn't find anything if any upgrade Ian's know let us know well like GoodReader

01:18:48   Can be linked to Dropbox and you can download things into GoodReader from Dropbox

01:18:54   Okay, and it's a it's a pretty decent media player someone in the chat room. I've just tapped out

01:18:59   I'm on my iPad today. Suggested VLC? Maybe? Maybe VLC could do it? I don't know. But,

01:19:06   yeah, I think there might be some options. I'll put those two in the show notes so Michael can

01:19:11   get those. But, yeah, so maybe Good Reader, maybe VLC, maybe there's something else. If there is,

01:19:17   we'll provide it in follow-up next week when we do that. Doug wanted to know, "Do you buy any

01:19:26   magazines or comics in print? I'm curious to know which parts of your media

01:19:29   libraries are still analog. What about you, Jason?

01:19:33   I am almost entirely digital at this point. I don't buy comics. Other than occasionally something that I truly love, I will buy

01:19:42   basically a keepsake edition, like especially even though they make trade

01:19:45   paperbacks now, I won't even buy those, but I'll buy the hardcovers sometimes.

01:19:48   It's like when the entire Hawkeye run from Marvel Comics with Matt Fraction as

01:19:52   the writer. When that finished I bought the hardcover of Hawkeye so I will

01:19:59   occasionally buy the hardcovers of things but even that is becoming more

01:20:02   rare. It's all digital and books it's all digital if I buy them I buy the ebooks

01:20:08   so yeah I'm pretty much done with consuming analog media. I guess you know

01:20:16   the blu-rays aren't analog they're digital but they're physical media. I

01:20:21   I will occasionally buy a blu-ray and I immediately convert it to digital, right?

01:20:26   I rip it and put it in my Plex library.

01:20:28   So, but I will at least occasionally buy those because they've got better stuff on them or they're cheaper.

01:20:34   You can see my vinyl over there.

01:20:41   Oh, yeah?

01:20:42   So I have a record player.

01:20:44   I got the record player because I started buying vinyl records of my favorite records as like a keepsake.

01:20:50   Yeah, so just nice to display then I ended up with so many that I was like

01:20:55   I want to have something to play these on so I bought a record player and

01:20:57   Every now and then I will add to it some of my favorite albums

01:21:01   I haven't done this in a while and I should because I have a bunch of albums that I really love and want to add to

01:21:05   My collection I do that and then I buy like the occasional graphic novel or book in hard copy if I really like them

01:21:10   But I'm similar to you. I never start right now

01:21:13   I never go into something cold and it's physical like I start with the digital and if I really love it

01:21:17   Then I'll buy it physically. Yeah, I feel like that is the

01:21:20   that is the secret to the success of physical stuff. Video games is maybe the only thing I still do that with

01:21:25   just because it can take so, I mean not now with my mega internet, but it can take so long to download something.

01:21:31   Right, like you ordered that game and you had it, you wanted it delivered by drone.

01:21:36   Yep, and it will come quicker. Well I think they know that for keepsakes and things like that, that's a market for it

01:21:44   and that's why you see, even for video games that are available for digital download,

01:21:47   there's also the special edition that comes in a booklet and has all the extra

01:21:53   stuff and I have so many of those yeah but like with the switch the switch

01:21:56   carts are so small I'm still buying some games on the carts as well as buying

01:22:02   from the e-shop. Cliff asked Myke you really got into buying watch bands Apple

01:22:07   watch bands in the beginning I was wondering if you're still adding to your

01:22:10   collection I haven't added any in a while I read it the nylon bands and I'm

01:22:14   keen to see the new ones the new stripey color ones I haven't got any of them yet

01:22:18   I showed the pictures to Adina and she said she didn't like them I'm wearing

01:22:23   the blue nylon today yes I see the first edition of that and I really like those

01:22:27   so I want to go and take a look at them if there's any that I really love I'll

01:22:31   get them but like I showed them there at the end issues I don't like the look at

01:22:33   them she is kind of she helps me with the things that are supposed to look

01:22:38   good mm-hmm smart but I do want to see them because I think they look cool but

01:22:42   I haven't bought any yet.

01:22:44   That's Ask Upgrade this week.

01:22:45   If you want to send in any questions for Ask Upgrade you can always tweet at us with the

01:22:49   hashtag #AskUpgrade and we'll get that.

01:22:51   Now we're going to take another break here and when we come back from the break we've

01:22:54   got Myke at the Movies.

01:22:55   I watched Alien yesterday and we're going to talk about Alien.

01:22:59   But before we do Myke at the Movies this week is brought to you by our friends over at Encapsula.

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01:24:37   that.

01:24:38   So, Alien.

01:24:39   Yes.

01:24:40   Watch this yesterday.

01:24:41   1979.

01:24:42   I watched it yesterday. 1979. 1979, I watched it yesterday. I was very apprehensive of this one Jason.

01:24:49   Very apprehensive. I don't like scary movies and I was worried about it.

01:24:57   I was very uncomfortable going into it. I've seen some of it. I think I mentioned

01:25:03   before I've studied some scenes of this movie for a media degree. So I have seen

01:25:08   the stomach scene about 50,000 million times we watched it over and over and

01:25:12   over again to study everything that was going on in that scene so I knew what I

01:25:18   was in for I mean everybody knows some of the scenes from Alien right like it

01:25:22   is a landmark movie so I was a little bit like I'm sure about it so but I've

01:25:29   watched it I watched it yesterday do you want to know how I felt about it and we

01:25:32   talk about some of the parts? Yeah. I can see why so many people love this

01:25:39   movie. It is incredibly well made. It is an intriguing movie. It is an interesting

01:25:44   world. It is a movie from 1979 that holds up in every respect today. Right? Other

01:25:51   than, you know, the monitors. We'll get to that. The old text. The big TV.

01:25:58   I mean like production value perspective. Oh yeah. Holds up. I mean I probably

01:26:01   probably watched a restored version you know. Sure but it's still the movie that

01:26:05   they made back then. So this was three years before Ridley Scott made

01:26:10   Blade Runner which is often hailed for its visuals and it's sort of a

01:26:17   visionary science fiction movie. We should maybe do Blade Runner next because

01:26:20   there's a new Blade Runner movie coming right? I know you know but I've never

01:26:23   seen Blade Runner. All right we could do that. People are gonna really be unhappy

01:26:27   with me. I don't speak about Blade Runner publicly because I don't really like it

01:26:31   So that's my maybe we should talk about it instead of it being on the incomparable way like maybe you raise people, you know

01:26:36   But alien I feel like you could argue

01:26:38   I'm not gonna compare it to Blade Runner. I will say

01:26:41   there's a reason it looks as good as it does and is as interesting as it is and

01:26:46   it is not surprised that three years later that guy made Blade Runner because

01:26:51   Alien is itself a pretty tremendous technical achievement. It just it looks

01:26:58   Amazing and in not I think maybe it has some some benefit of being of following Star Wars

01:27:04   It is aggressively not the kind of sci-fi movie that you saw in the late 60s and early 70s where everything is clean and white

01:27:11   It is like Star Wars this universe taken to an extreme. It is dirty and gross

01:27:17   There is steam flying out of everything. Yeah for 95% of the movie steam is pouring out of a pipe

01:27:23   Yeah, and you get the sense that this is a this is a spaceship that has been worked hard

01:27:27   It's a blue-collar spaceship.

01:27:30   These people are workers.

01:27:32   They just want to go home and get paid and instead they have to go and get diverted to

01:27:37   this other place.

01:27:38   Their ship is their workplace.

01:27:40   It has shown signs of wear and signs of work.

01:27:43   It's been out there a long time.

01:27:45   It's dirty and messy and yet still a spaceship, which is a great combination.

01:27:50   Like me and I told Adina I was watching it and I told her that I was like apprehensive

01:27:56   of the movie and she asked me after I watched it like oh how silly were the

01:28:00   special effects I'm like they weren't because it wasn't it's because she was

01:28:04   like oh how dumb was the CGI right was her quote was huh right or like stop

01:28:09   motion or you know you know like the stuff that looks stupid in Terminator

01:28:12   right right it was none of that you know the only the only the and I had somebody

01:28:17   tell me that it's good that it's this way because it's a release of tension

01:28:20   but at the end of the chestburster scene where the alien emerges and runs away

01:28:24   It's like it's it's literally like we tied a puppet to a fishing line and pulled it across the floor

01:28:30   It is so terrible

01:28:31   The only other part as well for me is when the alien is shot out of the ship and it's so obviously a man in a suit

01:28:38   Right, like it looks so bad fair enough. Those are the two parts but most of the time it's terrifying the jaws

01:28:45   It's the jaws story right which is by not showing it so much you make it more scary

01:28:50   And you don't give the opportunity for it to be demystified for you to pick it apart.

01:28:55   They don't show too much of the alien, right? Like they just show parts?

01:28:57   And it is a legendary piece of creation of character design.

01:29:04   It's freaking me out thinking about it right now.

01:29:06   The HR Geeker alien could not be a more iconic monster design.

01:29:12   It's disgusting.

01:29:13   And yet one of the things I love about it is that, you know, it doesn't linger too much on the monster.

01:29:19   Which I think makes it better and more scary.

01:29:21   And yes, I think this movie, for a movie from 1979,

01:29:25   I think it holds up pretty well technically.

01:29:27   Not perfect, but it holds up pretty well.

01:29:29   - It's not my kind of movie.

01:29:32   It just isn't.

01:29:33   I don't like feeling anxious or uncomfortable

01:29:35   when I watch movies and like I was for the whole time.

01:29:38   This is the only movie that I have watched for this show

01:29:42   where I was doing other stuff while it was on for parts.

01:29:44   Like I had to be like reading Twitter and stuff

01:29:46   because I was so uncomfortable.

01:29:50   - So we talked about this on the incomparable

01:29:51   and one of the things that I think we all agreed about it is

01:29:55   we think of it, or you can think of it

01:29:58   as a science fiction movie.

01:29:59   - It's a horror movie. - It's a horror movie.

01:30:01   Like, literally, the characters are picked off one by one

01:30:06   until there's only one left.

01:30:08   - And like-- - Just like every other

01:30:10   horror movie. - Unnecessary jump scares.

01:30:11   - It's a slasher movie. - Right, the start

01:30:12   of the movie. - Yeah.

01:30:13   - The computers coming on are supposed to scare you.

01:30:16   - Yeah, no. - 'Cause it happens

01:30:17   like dead silence, bang, computers on, it's like, ah.

01:30:19   - But I think the brilliance of setting a slasher movie

01:30:21   essentially in a science fiction universe is,

01:30:24   that is one of the reasons for its appeal,

01:30:27   is that it is not the movie you think you're watching.

01:30:31   - It's also less scary because it's not a human.

01:30:33   Right, I find-- - It's a monster.

01:30:36   - Because I, you know, it's like,

01:30:37   that alien's not gonna come kill me.

01:30:39   - Right, 'cause it doesn't exist, it's--

01:30:41   - But like I can't watch the home invasion type movies.

01:30:44   - Right, 'cause that could at least plausibly,

01:30:46   even if it's only slightly possible, it could happen.

01:30:49   And an alien xenomorph stalking you--

01:30:52   - On my spaceship.

01:30:53   - Is probably not gonna happen.

01:30:54   - Not in my lifetime.

01:30:55   - Yeah.

01:30:56   - So I struggled to watch a lot of it, like really focused,

01:30:59   because I knew a lot of the stuff that was gonna happen,

01:31:02   right, like you could just tell.

01:31:04   But when it was more action or drama or suspense,

01:31:07   not suspense, but like,

01:31:09   not suspense in a thriller kind of way,

01:31:13   I actually I really liked it like and I can see

01:31:16   Why this is considered to be one of the best movies ever made like I can see all of it

01:31:20   I just couldn't enjoy it because I was too uncomfortable watching it. So that's kind of my overall feeling

01:31:27   Yeah, I I know and I can see so clearly why this is one of the best movies ever committed to film

01:31:32   But I just couldn't I think I think the first

01:31:35   Part isn't great. I think it starts out really boringly and a lot of times I

01:31:42   I use the phrase, "If this movie was made today,"

01:31:46   and I follow it by pointing out all the ways

01:31:49   that modern movie making would screw it up.

01:31:52   I feel like some techniques of modern movie making

01:31:57   would help the first 30 minutes of Alien

01:31:59   because it is a slow-- - I enjoyed the world building.

01:32:01   - Yeah, but some of the space stuff is just so slow.

01:32:03   - When they're out on that planet,

01:32:04   oh my God, I wanted to kill myself, it was so boring.

01:32:07   - Yeah, it's trying to build up the tension,

01:32:09   But it's not, for all the visual strengths here,

01:32:12   I think Ridley Scott, the late 70s, early 80s,

01:32:17   Ridley Scott of Alien and Blade Runner,

01:32:19   I have issues with the pacing of his movies.

01:32:21   And I realize that just means that I'm a whippersnapper,

01:32:25   but I feel like both of these movies have parts

01:32:27   that are just super sleepy.

01:32:29   - Was it Ash?

01:32:30   I mean, a lot of it they're trying to show

01:32:31   that Ash is a weirdo, right?

01:32:32   Like you're supposed to feel like he's weird.

01:32:34   - 'Cause that's set up for later.

01:32:35   - But like, you could have done that.

01:32:38   economically. Just when he's in that seat and they're out on the ship, like out on

01:32:43   the alien ship and stuff it's like oh my god. Well they make it they land

01:32:47   on this planet and it's a soft landing and it's fine and in the landing is you

01:32:52   get the impression it's supposed to be a pulse pounding thrilling dangerous

01:32:57   descent but you kind of don't see it and all you hear is like these alarms going

01:33:02   off all over the ship and it's really weird because what were the alarms for

01:33:05   it was apparently a routine. Can you imagine in an airplane as you were landing like all of the alerts go off because we're gonna be

01:33:11   landing now gonna be landing. There's no problem, but like we're gonna make a load of noise.

01:33:15   Yeah, it's it's it's weird. I love it gets a lot better

01:33:20   It gets a lot better when they bring him back to this when right when they bring John Hurt back to the spaceship

01:33:24   It gets a lot better

01:33:25   So I like to see if like they're asleep on this ship there and suspended animation like all of that is like super smart

01:33:30   Like I've seen that used in so many other places

01:33:32   I don't know if Alien was the first movie to really use it, but like I liked it, right?

01:33:36   Like I liked all that. I thought it was cool. I loved the super old-school technology

01:33:40   It's intended to look futuristic. The ship is just covered in lights like the mother room. Yeah

01:33:44   Why is it why are there lights everywhere, but it doesn't matter. There's loads of lights everywhere

01:33:48   Yeah, the keyboards are like super clacky like your kind of keyboard like, you know

01:33:52   I like it one thing that I found really weird about this movie and I didn't like and I didn't understand why there was so

01:33:57   much corporate politics baked into it all so

01:34:01   Yeah, it's it's funny

01:34:03   So the reason is maybe I don't know whether you got this or not

01:34:07   and I this is why I think a modern science fiction movie would do the setup better is

01:34:11   the reason we get the detail about they're working for the corporation and they're being sent on this job and all that is that there's the

01:34:17   Revelation when ash it turns out to be an Android one of the revelations is that they're all considered expendable

01:34:23   Because all that really matters is they want to get the alien

01:34:27   And so the corporate politics is all meant to be,

01:34:31   I mean, it's a biting satire,

01:34:34   'cause these are blue collar workers

01:34:35   who are being sent on a mission that is highly risky

01:34:38   and may result in their death,

01:34:39   because the corporation has decided

01:34:41   it's worth it to risk the lives

01:34:42   of their employees for profit.

01:34:44   That's actually what's happening here, but--

01:34:47   - You don't know it.

01:34:48   - I think it is not told as clearly as it should be.

01:34:51   - One of the problems for me anyway

01:34:53   is like the sound is terrible.

01:34:55   Like at any point where people are talking,

01:34:57   like especially when they're sitting around.

01:34:58   - It can be hard to understand the dialogue.

01:34:59   - It's like, oh my God, they're having seven conversations

01:35:02   and like you can't hear any of them.

01:35:03   - Don't watch a Robert Altman movie.

01:35:05   - Okay.

01:35:05   - But you know, like when they're sitting around that table.

01:35:07   - It's naturalistic, it's a 70s thing.

01:35:08   It's a naturalistic dialogue kind of thing.

01:35:10   - I didn't really like it.

01:35:11   - But it is hard to follow.

01:35:13   And again, you could argue that a modern SF movie

01:35:15   would set up this better,

01:35:17   but it would also be really obvious and less artful.

01:35:22   And that's also true.

01:35:23   But I do think that there might be a,

01:35:25   I think there's probably a really good fan edit

01:35:29   that probably has already been made of Alien

01:35:31   where you could make the story clearer.

01:35:34   - Yeah.

01:35:35   I really like the kind of Hitchcock vibe

01:35:38   of the way the characters are set up.

01:35:40   Like you have no idea Ripley's the main character

01:35:41   of this movie for such a long time.

01:35:43   - Right.

01:35:44   - And like, and you're like,

01:35:45   what's the guy's name? - It's a Hitchcock level

01:35:46   thing where it's-- - I loved it.

01:35:48   I absolutely loved it.

01:35:49   'Cause again, when this is--

01:35:50   - Well, Tom Skerritt is the captain, right?

01:35:52   Yeah, like what's his name in the movie? I don't remember now. I haven't got IMDB in front of me. Yeah

01:35:56   But like as well like in that media class, I mean, this is probably why we did it

01:36:00   I don't remember like I don't remember enough it but in that media class we cited psycho

01:36:04   Which is probably why we also watched alien. That's the why I'm like

01:36:07   Yes, the same idea you do the movie you're watching is not the movie or you think you're watching like she's just this background character

01:36:14   Like she has barely anything to say for like the first 15 20 minutes in a movie and she gets killed John Hurt is clearly

01:36:19   John hope starts as your main character. Well, no, I'm scared as Dallas

01:36:23   He's the captain hurts the first person that wakes up sure, right?

01:36:27   So like he's your hero and then also like he's the person who goes out and like he's out on his own

01:36:31   Investigate in and then it's like oh, but he gets eaten by the monster basically, right?

01:36:35   So then it becomes Dallas is the ship's captain

01:36:37   He's the only one that gets to go into the special room to talk to the computer and he gets taken away by the monster

01:36:42   And then it's like oh and then you got ash right like it's like ash is like this dude

01:36:47   investigation is suspicious, but you follow him. No, it's this woman Ripley. Yeah, it's a total badass

01:36:51   But you don't know that until the end of the movie. Yep, and I loved that right like I loved that

01:36:56   I mean, it's slightly spoiled for me because hindsight shows me that I actually know it is Sigourney Weaver who is the hero

01:37:02   Yeah, I know it's hard, right, but but it's you can

01:37:04   Yeah, I could still really appreciate how the movie is built like when I'm watching the first time like oh maybe like in

01:37:11   this movie

01:37:14   Sigourney Weaver isn't that much of a star like you know

01:37:16   see that where it's like someone's in a movie and then they go and make another

01:37:20   movie and they become a megastar so they make them more important. I think of

01:37:23   Parks and Recreation. Parks and Rec has Chris Pratt and he's like a

01:37:28   bumbling character but then they make him more and more important because he's

01:37:31   about to become the world's biggest movie star. And so yeah I liked

01:37:35   all of that. You know and the intrigue begins like when Ash lets the alien in

01:37:40   right? The facehugger in. I didn't like Ash for good reason. He was seen untrustworthy.

01:37:46   How do you like his death scene or his almost death scene?

01:37:52   The robot smashing, the head smashing.

01:37:56   And he's squirting milky goo instead of blood?

01:38:01   Yeah, they screwed this up, right? This scene is not done well enough. And the reason is

01:38:07   is because they clearly add in voiceover work to say he's a robot.

01:38:12   Obviously, no one could tell what the hell this character is supposed to be.

01:38:15   Right.

01:38:16   He took it too far.

01:38:17   He tried to build his own world in a way that was, that is imperceptible to what

01:38:24   people would expect these things to be.

01:38:25   Why the hell is the robot bleeding?

01:38:28   It looks like an alien.

01:38:29   We are in a world surrounded by aliens.

01:38:31   Right.

01:38:32   Right?

01:38:32   That are bleeding weird things, right?

01:38:34   Like he's already set up in this movie that these aliens drips weird goo and then you've got this thing

01:38:39   That's having its head smashed off and it's got white

01:38:42   liquid milk pouring out of it and like it doesn't all the parts of the inside don't look at anything like a like robot parts like

01:38:49   these weird balls and like tubes which just look like innards of an alien and

01:38:53   Obviously where I the way I look at the show in this movie

01:38:57   I'm sure it's a story about this business to the law that I'm telling myself the show in this movie to test audiences

01:39:01   No one understands what the hell this thing is because you can hear it

01:39:04   I mean I can hear it

01:39:05   Because I'm quite tuned into way like audio sounds in different environments because what I do for a living and it gets

01:39:10   What's that? What's the character's name the guy who hits him in the head? I mean, he's one of the worker guys

01:39:15   He's the one who's like left alive at that point

01:39:17   But where's a bandana?

01:39:20   Yaffa kodau with Parker Parker. Yeah, I think it was Parker and

01:39:23   he

01:39:26   He's the one who smashes the ashen head with the like fire extinguisher or whatever

01:39:29   It's like a big piece of metal and all this liquid starts pouring out of him and he lands on the ground

01:39:34   It turns away and you hear him say it's a robot. Mmm

01:39:37   Ash is a robot. Yeah, but like he that wasn't in the original movie. All right, right cuz you can't tell

01:39:44   Like what the hell is this thing? It took me so I'm like, is he an alien?

01:39:47   Like this is what I'm going for my head until he says it cuz it doesn't look anything like a robot robots

01:39:52   Don't bleed and I know what it's meant to be right? It's like the liquid that calls an Android. Yeah

01:39:57   He has milky milky goo, but I don't think that they did a good enough

01:40:02   I think I think that they took it too far. All right

01:40:04   But like fascinating and I didn't like that scene

01:40:07   Right. I just didn't like it was too brutal for me like the skin tearing and all that stuff

01:40:13   I really liked his head being on the table though. That was freaking awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I really like that

01:40:20   That's the only effect that doesn't work that when he changes when he changed one to the other like we gonna do that

01:40:24   That's hard to even do today, right?

01:40:27   Like with CGI or with practical effects,

01:40:28   like it's hard to do that sort of thing

01:40:30   because like there's just something about humans, right?

01:40:33   You can just tell when it's a human and when it's not.

01:40:35   Like we just have that ability to just be able to tell,

01:40:37   right, like you got the rogue one.

01:40:39   There are people, not everyone, but like a lot of people,

01:40:42   I mean, we can tell when Tarkin's not real, right?

01:40:44   You can just tell.

01:40:45   And I liked all that part, right?

01:40:49   Like everything that happens before that as well,

01:40:51   like the lead up to his death is funny to me.

01:40:53   I love that mother is accurate to modern digital assistants

01:40:58   and that she cannot understand the commands

01:41:01   being given to her.

01:41:02   Does not compute, unable to compute, reminds me of Siri.

01:41:04   Right, like I don't understand what you're saying.

01:41:06   Let me Google that for you.

01:41:08   The crew being expendable is good, right?

01:41:10   Like when they find out the crew is expendable,

01:41:12   like that's cool, right?

01:41:13   At that point it's like you understand all the story

01:41:17   and everything that's happening around it.

01:41:18   Like I enjoyed all of this.

01:41:20   I really, I loved the scene where Ash explains his motivation when his head is cut off.

01:41:24   It's my favorite scene in the movie.

01:41:26   Like when he is like laughing at the end.

01:41:30   He's like, "You have no chance."

01:41:31   And he thinks it's awesome.

01:41:32   I love that.

01:41:34   I loved all of that part.

01:41:35   Like that was so, it was all such great acting.

01:41:38   And I love the idea that this, there's like this evil vindictive robot.

01:41:43   And because I think that one of the, the, like the female, um, the one who's like

01:41:49   super hysterical she's just saying like you like this don't you like you you

01:41:53   love this outcome like that kind of thing and he's just kind of like I just

01:41:56   like seeing what's happening right like he just likes to see what's going on and

01:42:01   I think that's really interesting then of course like you know it kind of all

01:42:06   moves along I don't like the logic of Ripley risking her life to save the cat

01:42:16   yeah I don't think you'd do it I know you have cats or I know you have cats and I don't have pets

01:42:21   but it's more that like I know you want to save the cat. She doesn't do a lot. She looks for the cat at the

01:42:28   point when she could be like finding the escape pod like when she's on her own

01:42:31   after everyone else is killed. Well she has to double she has to have double

01:42:34   back in one of the things that I really like she says the self-destruct and this

01:42:38   movie does what few movies I think do which is you buy the self-destruct and

01:42:42   and she's going to the exit,

01:42:44   and then she realizes that she can't,

01:42:47   and so she like, or she deactivates it,

01:42:50   but then it's too late.

01:42:51   - Too late, and she starts screaming at the digital assistant.

01:42:54   - She tries to deactivate it, fails to deactivate it,

01:42:59   which turns out to be fine that she fails,

01:43:01   but that's a nice moment.

01:43:03   I don't know, I like the cat.

01:43:04   I think that's a great example of the lived-in world

01:43:06   that this is, that they have a cat on the ship.

01:43:09   And it hisses at the alien.

01:43:11   I feel like there's two she should be too scared in my opinion of this alien to

01:43:18   take care of even think about the cat that's but again like I know that I'm

01:43:23   not the right person to judge this because I don't have animals but like I

01:43:26   just don't really get in the rest of the movie that she's super attached to this

01:43:29   cat like to the point that she would risk her own life to save it.

01:43:33   She has the opportunity to save the cat it's the only other creature left alive on the ship other than her and the alien.

01:43:38   I guess and she doesn't kill the alien right? The aliens like I don't really I didn't really get what the alien was

01:43:42   Does the alien asleep in the pod? Like why is the alien just laying up in the pod?

01:43:46   I don't get it get that at the at the end. Yeah, it's uh, it's hiding

01:43:51   It's stowing away. It's hiding. It's hiding

01:43:54   Right. So it's trying to get to us. Yeah. Okay, that makes sense then I didn't fully understand

01:44:00   Yeah, so it's a weird ending it like it's like what is it doing? And yeah that but I did like it

01:44:06   It's a scary monster that you think is dead that's not dead and it has to jump out at you and say boo because it's a

01:44:11   Horror movie, but it's just super weird that like she sees it. It doesn't see her she gets into the like he into the spacesuit

01:44:18   I

01:44:20   Was kind of uncomfortable with her being in her underwear, yeah that came up in the incomparable episode

01:44:27   It's it is our underwear so heuristic

01:44:29   Yeah, but but I find it there's something you're talking about like the lived-in world

01:44:33   Her underwear is too small for her and that was kind of a an interesting choice. Yeah

01:44:38   I like I like that you might end up in space is so bad that you may end up being

01:44:43   Chased by a monster in your underwear

01:44:46   like I like that but the choice of the underwear was kind of like

01:44:50   this is this strikes me as being a

01:44:53   Choice that was made and unless in a little audiences. Yeah, but yeah, there was just a part of it like where I just like

01:45:02   It was just interesting. It's an interesting choice.

01:45:04   It's to make her vulnerable. I get the reasons for it, but I just wish it hadn't happened.

01:45:09   I think today, she would have slightly less revealing underpants on.

01:45:14   Or that she was just not in any armored clothing. Or that she was in like long john.

01:45:21   You know, she's just not in the appropriate clothing to deal with an alien.

01:45:26   But I wish that she just wasn't in such revealing clothing.

01:45:29   because it just makes me uncomfortable to see that kind of thing now because my

01:45:33   brain knows that it's wrong you know it's like I don't like this.

01:45:37   Yeah that's an obvious thing that they're doing. But we see a lot watching the movies from the era

01:45:42   that we watch these movies from this sort of stuff happens a lot.

01:45:45   Sure we should count ourselves lucky that the alien doesn't come and rip her top off.

01:45:50   Was it Star Trek? Was it the second one or the first one? Right where the like the

01:45:56   captain's thought is changing and there's a scene of her taking her clothes off and

01:45:59   she's in no underwear. Oh Star Trek Into Darkness? Yeah that's a bad scene.

01:46:04   Yeah I know that received a lot of flak but it's exactly the same scene as this right

01:46:07   it's like she's just changing for the sake of changing on camera but like

01:46:11   having her not having her have to put clothes on adds tension so she has to

01:46:16   get into that suit right she has to get into the spacesuit so like the build of

01:46:20   her having taken off her clothing gets in the spacesuit so she can live when

01:46:24   she opens the hatch all makes sense but like if it was made today you know it

01:46:29   would be made differently. Right. Right. And I love the murder scene because

01:46:34   it's not scary it's action and I loved that scene. I say murder where she gets

01:46:38   rid of the alien. Yeah. Like the way in which like the plan that she

01:46:41   formulates to get rid of the alien including the point where she's in the

01:46:45   closet like all of that is really good I liked that scene because like it

01:46:50   didn't feel scary because like you know the aliens already there but you know

01:46:53   it's there. Right, it's suspense it's not a surprise. But it is one of the

01:46:56   effects that doesn't look so good like when the aliens like jumping out of the

01:46:59   steam like one of the many steam scenes yeah and then it's difficult to

01:47:03   understand what is happening to the alien like I ended up just working out

01:47:07   on my own that like she's just sucking the oxygen out and that is not clear

01:47:11   like initially it just looks like the aliens just getting shot with steam but

01:47:15   it's like well steam's a problem it would have been dead hours ago because that spaceship is full of steam.

01:47:19   steamy spaceship. Very steamy spaceship. So yeah I have to say look this was not a

01:47:24   I didn't dislike this movie because it was a bad movie and I didn't dislike

01:47:29   this movie I just couldn't really like this movie because it's not my kind of

01:47:33   movie. So that's Alien. I think we should maybe do Blade Runner. Okay. We can

01:47:40   discuss it. I mean if you if you think that it's gonna be bad then maybe we

01:47:44   shouldn't do it but we were originally planning. It would be fascinating compare and contrast for

01:47:49   you like we were originally planning on doing alien and aliens but I don't think

01:47:53   I want to watch another one of these you do blade runner let's do it okay so

01:47:56   blade runner next time I actually think we're gonna do one maybe at the end of

01:47:59   this month so maybe we'll do blade runner so that's alien and that's this

01:48:04   episode we're done we're actually gonna be together again yeah we are so this

01:48:09   was our London leg we're gonna be in Dublin if you're coming to the if you're

01:48:13   listening to this before Wednesday if you're coming to the meet up can't wait

01:48:17   to see you that's gonna be fun we're doing a meet up in London tomorrow other

01:48:23   than that thanks so much for listening to this week's episode you'll find our

01:48:26   show notes for this week loads of links this week go to relay.fm/upgrades/135

01:48:31   thanks again to our sponsors Encapsular, Blue Apron, Away and MailRoute we'll be

01:48:36   back next time you want to submit questions for Snail Talk

01:48:40   hashtag SnailTalk questions for Ask Upgrade hashtag Ask Upgrade you want to

01:48:43   find Jason online he's @jasonl on Twitter sixcolors.com and incomparable.com

01:48:48   I am @imikeyke and we'll be back next week until then say goodbye Jason Snell

01:48:54   goodbye Jason Snell yeah

01:48:57   [ Music ]