134: Steal Its Bezel Thunder


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 134. Today's show is brought to you by Encapsula,

00:00:15   Text Expander from Smile, and Squarespace. My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:21   Hello, Jason Snell.

00:00:22   Hello, Myke Hurley.

00:00:24   Last week on the show, I decided that I would like to try and introduce a new segment to

00:00:30   open upgrade every week in which we go through a different small talk question with you.

00:00:37   As I mentioned on the show, usually the show opens with you telling me how the weather

00:00:42   is or by telling me that it's Monday.

00:00:45   Or something that happened over the weekend, which I totally have a story about this weekend,

00:00:49   but yes, it tends to be the same thing, which is I say, like today I would say, it's sunny

00:00:53   and the sky is blue, so much better than last week.

00:00:55   But do people wanna hear the local San Francisco forecast

00:00:59   for a day that has already passed

00:01:01   by the time you're listening to this podcast?

00:01:03   - I don't think so. - Maybe, but probably not.

00:01:05   - Unless they're your next-door neighbor.

00:01:07   But anyway, we're veering off course already.

00:01:10   But so we are now going to institute a new segment.

00:01:14   It is a small talk segment,

00:01:15   and so I have decided to call this segment #SNELtalk.

00:01:19   That is the new name of this segment.

00:01:22   - It's just fine.

00:01:23   And so you can send me questions to ask Jason in the Snail Talk segment, which will open

00:01:29   the show with the hashtag SnailTalk, and they will be questions like this, which was submitted

00:01:35   by Bozy.

00:01:36   Jason, what did you have for breakfast today?

00:01:39   Well, not to bring us back to English muffins, which we already talked about on a previous

00:01:44   show, but I had an English muffin with peanut butter and blackberry jelly on it.

00:01:50   I'm sure that would be very nice.

00:01:52   And it was actually, because I put it in the toaster right after my son toasted his toast

00:01:57   for the morning, it kind of burned.

00:02:00   So the whole house smells a little burny.

00:02:02   But it was still good.

00:02:03   It was just extra crunchy.

00:02:06   So if you would like to send in a question for us to open the show, use the hashtag #SnellTalk

00:02:11   on Twitter and it will go into a lovely spreadsheet and then I will be able to ask them to Jason.

00:02:16   And don't spoil me with them.

00:02:18   Don't include me on them.

00:02:19   I don't want to know.

00:02:20   I want it to be a surprise.

00:02:21   tweet them to me or just tweet them into the wild as long as you use the hashtag, I will

00:02:26   find them. Thank you very much to Bozy for suggesting that we would like to know what

00:02:30   Jason had for breakfast. It is follow up time, Mr Snell. You will remember we have been tracking

00:02:35   a story for a while, or at least I have and you've been reluctantly coming along on this

00:02:39   ride with me, which is about Amazon Prime Air, which is Amazon's drone delivery. Well,

00:02:46   During the past couple of days Amazon Prime Air made its first US drone delivery. If you

00:02:52   remember last year they completed the first ever in the UK. And at a conference called

00:02:57   Mars 2017 which stands for Machine Learning, Automation, Robotics and Space Exploration.

00:03:04   I'm sure this has been on your radar because of lift off. It has a fitting name and space

00:03:10   exploration is somehow involved. This drone was set off to deliver a conference goer some

00:03:17   sunscreen to actually make this project a reality in the US outside of the Mars conference.

00:03:25   Amazon still needs FAA approval and regulation stuff. And apparently this demo was completed

00:03:32   with the FAA's assistance. So there has been an Amazon Prime Air drone delivery in the

00:03:37   United States of America.

00:03:39   USA, USA, USA.

00:03:42   - Mm-hmm, something like that.

00:03:44   - Did I do that right?

00:03:45   - I think so, I think, ask Casey, he's good at that.

00:03:48   - All right.

00:03:50   - Last week on the show as well,

00:03:51   we spoke about our home screens.

00:03:53   We have been receiving lots of home screens,

00:03:56   as was predicted, but Seth wanted to know

00:04:00   what widgets we use.

00:04:02   So I said, okay, Seth, well, I'm saying,

00:04:04   okay, Seth, right now, we'll tell Seth and tell the world.

00:04:08   I'll run through my widgets.

00:04:09   I'm going to put some links in the show notes to some of these applications because they

00:04:12   are cool apps and they have cool widgets. I use the workflow widget. I use that to trigger

00:04:18   off a lot of things including my timers. Of course we're going to talk about workflow

00:04:22   a little later on in the show. FantasticOwl for my calendar, I use Todoist as well in

00:04:28   the widgets so I can see what's coming up in the day. I have the Hue widget there. I

00:04:31   tend to use the HomeKit Control Center stuff but I have the Hue widget there in case I

00:04:36   they need it because you can turn on scenes and stuff like that.

00:04:39   Carrot Weather, that's my favorite of all of the weather apps. I love the watch app

00:04:43   and I love the widget in the notification center. It nicely displays information. Clock

00:04:50   with a K, K-L-O-K, which is a time zone converter widget. And then the Apple Notes and Apple

00:05:00   batteries widgets and then canary right in the bottom of my home security needs.

00:05:05   Sure, makes sense. Mine are also workflow. I actually wrote last week it's a slideshow

00:05:13   but it's a good one. It's a content filled slideshow. It's 25 different things that you

00:05:17   can do with workflow and we'll talk about more workflow more soon.

00:05:25   Workflow mo.

00:05:26   Workflow mo.

00:05:27   No workflows mo problem.

00:05:28   - No problem. - No flows.

00:05:29   So that widget is amazing

00:05:34   because the widgets now have the ability to run code

00:05:37   in iOS 10 and workflow takes advantage of that.

00:05:40   Like running workflows from the home screen,

00:05:43   it launches workflow, right?

00:05:45   And like kicks you into a series of things.

00:05:47   There's a lot of stuff that when you run it from the widget,

00:05:49   it just runs in the widget.

00:05:50   It's amazing how it does that.

00:05:53   So. - Yeah.

00:05:54   Yeah, like, so I have like ones that will,

00:05:56   that do Todoist, they launch Todoist templates,

00:05:58   it doesn't even open Todoist.

00:06:00   Like I just hit the thing and then the tasks are in there.

00:06:03   It never even opens the app, it's magic.

00:06:06   - Yeah, it's very good stuff.

00:06:08   I also have on my phone, Weather Underground

00:06:11   and on my iPad, Wonder Station,

00:06:12   because they've split those apps for iPad and iPhone.

00:06:15   And that basically tells me the temperature at my house.

00:06:20   And also if I'm out and about, it will auto,

00:06:24   if I'm in a different city, it will tell me

00:06:25   like the local like temperature and forecast too.

00:06:27   But when I'm at home,

00:06:29   it is my weather station that's feeding it.

00:06:32   And I have dark sky on in the winter on my iPhone.

00:06:37   Overcast because it's the new Overcast widget is helpful.

00:06:43   I can very quickly play Overcast,

00:06:46   which seems like I might as well just run Overcast.

00:06:49   I think the thing with that and also on the watch

00:06:51   is sometimes your phone is not playing a podcast.

00:06:55   It's playing, it just played a video or it played some music

00:06:59   and now when you press play and you want your podcast back,

00:07:02   they don't come back and the widget is one way

00:07:05   to force overcast to start playing.

00:07:07   - That's a really good use case.

00:07:09   'Cause I have that and it really annoys me.

00:07:12   - My number one, so I now use the overcast watch

00:07:15   complication, which seems stupid, right?

00:07:17   'Cause it's just the overcast icon.

00:07:20   But I do it because I'll get in the car and music starts playing sometimes.

00:07:25   And it's because I was playing either because I was playing music earlier or because I was

00:07:30   playing something like a YouTube video and now it thinks nothing's playing.

00:07:35   And when you press play on an iPad or on an iPhone when nothing is playing it's like,

00:07:39   "Oh, I'll play you some music," which is not what I want.

00:07:41   I want podcasts.

00:07:42   I want to go back to the podcast I was listening to.

00:07:44   I can tap on the watch complication and tap play and then start driving.

00:07:50   And it will launch overcast, start playing overcast.

00:07:53   And it's great because that's the way to force your phone that doesn't think its current

00:07:59   audio context is overcast back to overcast.

00:08:03   It's great.

00:08:04   And likewise on the widget.

00:08:06   And I have MLB@bat, which has like baseball score on it, which is great.

00:08:11   And Fantastic Hal.

00:08:12   I don't use that a lot, but it's there for like, what's my upcoming event?

00:08:15   What's my next event?

00:08:16   What's going on next in my life?

00:08:18   Lots of things are happening next week.

00:08:19   Myke, things are happening next week.

00:08:21   Oh yeah, we got a really big week next week, so...

00:08:24   Huge week!

00:08:25   Next week's upgrade, we're gonna be recording on Tuesday, and we're gonna be recording it

00:08:30   in person in MegaOffice.

00:08:33   In your office.

00:08:34   And one of the things that we're talking about is Myke at the Movies, and we're gonna be

00:08:38   doing Alien next week.

00:08:40   Yes.

00:08:41   So we're not watching the movie together, it's not the Flothouse.

00:08:44   No.

00:08:45   Although, you know, if you weren't recording another podcast right before that, I would

00:08:48   we'd be sorely tempted to have Myke at the movies

00:08:51   involve us actually watching the movie together,

00:08:52   but you've got to record "Connected" that afternoon.

00:08:54   - If you want to come over in the morning,

00:08:56   like if you want to come over earlier, if you want to.

00:08:59   - No, it's, you live a long way from where I'm staying,

00:09:02   and then I would be there the whole day,

00:09:03   and I'm gonna, that's, I think,

00:09:06   I think that would be too many trips on the train.

00:09:08   So we'll just do it, we'll do it separately,

00:09:10   but we are gonna talk about the movie "Alien",

00:09:13   the original

00:09:15   after after uh...

00:09:17   we finish the regular show

00:09:19   as we do with my communities but within person

00:09:22   indian i'll see the look of terror on mike's face yeah i'm after he's seen

00:09:26   a million i don't know how i feel about this this one

00:09:30   don't like scary movies well i recommend you watch it in the dark

00:09:34   but i think that if if you're terrified person and watch it in the light i'm

00:09:38   gonna watch it in the middle of the afternoon one i i recommend you have a

00:09:41   blankie

00:09:42   and a pillow

00:09:46   we should hide behind me and he did and he did jason

00:09:49   i think

00:09:51   i'm over the afternoon but you do you're doing connected on on tuesday so i

00:09:55   doesn't it doesn't make sense

00:09:57   uh...

00:09:59   just saying it's not that scary idea you need you don't you don't know my you

00:10:04   know my levels of of what is considered scary

00:10:07   we'll see i mean we'll see if i'm a trembling mess next week that one of the

00:10:11   I haven't gone over it.

00:10:13   - Fantastic.

00:10:14   - That's Myke in the movies next week.

00:10:15   He's gonna be alien.

00:10:17   So buckle up I guess for that one.

00:10:20   - Sure.

00:10:21   - All right, we have a quite a big week this week.

00:10:22   Guess all of the unexpected news, honestly.

00:10:25   I don't think this was the news that we're expecting

00:10:27   to be talking about this week, but we'll get to that.

00:10:30   Before we do, let me take a moment to thank our friends

00:10:33   over at Smile for supporting this week's show.

00:10:36   Today's episode is brought to you by TextExpander

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00:12:50   Alright, so the $329 iPad.

00:12:56   News! News! We got news! Everybody news! News happened!

00:13:03   We got some news but it wasn't what we wanted but we got it anyway.

00:13:06   Well, there were press releases released with new things from Apple and I feel like I've

00:13:11   just crawled into an oasis from out of the desert. It's amazing.

00:13:15   So there were press releases. No event. We kind of got tipped off to the fact that the

00:13:19   store was going to be down, right? Like there was like some postings on Apple's internal

00:13:25   or status, not internal, but they're like their status boards,

00:13:28   they're like system status boards.

00:13:31   You know, there was gonna be something happening.

00:13:33   - Yeah, the Apple Store was going to have

00:13:34   some maintenance happen overnight on last Tuesday.

00:13:39   - So we knew that that was going on,

00:13:42   and we were expecting a myriad of things.

00:13:47   We'll talk about that a little later on,

00:13:48   but one of the things that we did actually get was iPad.

00:13:53   This is a continuation of the line that was the iPad Air and iPad Air 2.

00:13:59   So the iPad Air and iPad Air 2 have gone away.

00:14:02   Apple do not make the iPad Air line anymore.

00:14:05   That is not the line that is continuing.

00:14:07   And the new iPad features an A9 processor, most of the features of the Air 2, and a new

00:14:14   lower price of $329.

00:14:16   - $29, right?

00:14:18   - And trapped in the body, most of the features of the Air 2

00:14:20   trapped in the body of an Air 1.

00:14:22   - Yeah, because it is what is thicker, heavier.

00:14:27   - A lot of the new features,

00:14:28   I went back and looked at my review of the iPad Air 2

00:14:31   and it is, you know, when you write a review of a product,

00:14:35   what you do is you say,

00:14:35   "Here's what's different from its predecessor."

00:14:37   And it's true, most people aren't upgrading

00:14:39   from the predecessor, but that's sort of like

00:14:41   everybody's mind about what state of the art.

00:14:43   And so you wanna say, "What's new?

00:14:44   What haven't we seen before in this product?"

00:14:46   And in my review of the Air 2, I listed all these things that are new about it, like the

00:14:50   fact that they have a laminated screen, so there's no air gap, and there's anti-glare

00:14:54   coating, and there are, let's see, what else, so it's thinner and lighter, and the new iPad

00:15:03   is essentially none of that.

00:15:06   It is back to the Air 1.

00:15:08   It is that screen.

00:15:09   So the screen, anyway, and the thickness, they've backed it out to the Air 1, presumably

00:15:15   because it's a lot cheaper to make a screen like that than to have this fancy laminated

00:15:19   screen with an anti-glare coat on it. And when they're trying to get the price down

00:15:23   to $329, that's the stuff that has to go. So it's a little bit, it's fascinating that

00:15:30   they've done this, and I'm sure we can go into this a little bit more, but it's a lot

00:15:33   like the iPhone SE in a way, where it's kind of a new product, but it's got a bunch of

00:15:39   old tech that is being repurposed and then some new tech in it as well. But I

00:15:45   would say the basis of it is basically an upgraded iPad Air 1. What if we

00:15:49   took the iPad Air 1 and upgraded the internals a little bit? It certainly has

00:15:55   none of the iPad Pro features. That's not happening. This is a

00:15:58   base model. It's the equivalent of what if we took the iPad Air 1 and then

00:16:03   upgraded a little bit so that we could sell it in 2017 and beyond for a low

00:16:07   price. I think for me what this iPad is really doing from a product line

00:16:14   perspective is separating the iPad Pro like it's it's helping in a in a way

00:16:20   make the iPad Pro stand out more right because this iPad has kind of taken in

00:16:27   some aspects a step back from it. Right I mean the iPad Airline itself was

00:16:33   impressive and the Air 2 is an impressive upgrade and that was because

00:16:37   they were on the line of what's the state, they were the, the iPad Air and then the iPad

00:16:41   Air 2 were state of the art iPads.

00:16:43   They were, they were the top of the line.

00:16:45   Exactly right, and they were moving on this track and then the iPad Pro was essentially

00:16:50   the iPad Air 3, you know, you could think of it that way. It was the next progression

00:16:54   there. And what Apple's doing now is it's tearing down the Air line, turns out the MacBook

00:16:59   Air has survived the iPad Air, who knew. And they're tearing that all down and they're

00:17:06   going back to the iPad line and they're going back with something that's kind of

00:17:09   like the Air 1 and you're absolutely right by doing that they have iPad and

00:17:14   iPad Pro and there's much bigger gulf between them in price and

00:17:19   functionality because the iPad, this new iPad, is not intended to be the top of

00:17:24   the line of anything like the iPad or like the iPhone SE, kind of. It is that

00:17:29   same kind of thing and and you know the iPad Air 2 was weirder, right?

00:17:34   because it was really just a previous generation top of the line product that was now a year

00:17:38   old and this new iPad is not that at all in any way.

00:17:44   So like I was thinking about this like how are they separating these devices like what

00:17:48   do they look like now? So one of the big things is processor differences right? So whilst

00:17:54   the iPad got a processor bump it's now on the A9 I think it was on the A8 before right?

00:18:01   But the iPad Pros both have in them when they were launched an A9X, right, so it had a more

00:18:09   powerful processor.

00:18:10   And I think a lot of us were kind of assuming that the Air 3 would probably pick up that

00:18:14   processor, right?

00:18:15   Like I think we were all assuming the continuation of the Air line would have seen it get even

00:18:20   closer to the Pro, right, if they didn't rev the Pros, right?

00:18:24   So what they've done is they've separated them.

00:18:26   They're also marketing them significantly differently.

00:18:30   Like you can just see it on Apple's website.

00:18:32   The iPad Pro, the tagline is super computer and the iPad is the tagline is flat out fun.

00:18:39   One of them is all about consuming video and listening to music and playing games, right?

00:18:45   And shopping across the whole page.

00:18:48   The other one is editing photos in Photoshop, creating websites.

00:18:56   It shows the internals.

00:18:57   It shows some CAD program, Excel, Word, very different marketing strategies for these products.

00:19:05   One is an addition to the other products in your home, the other computers.

00:19:10   The other is a replacement for a computer in your home.

00:19:13   That is how I was marketing them.

00:19:14   That makes me very happy to see this maybe a more clear message for the iPad line as

00:19:23   a thing in a way that I actually don't really think that they do for the Mac.

00:19:26   I don't think that there's so much of,

00:19:29   I feel like they just show a lot of the same sort of stuff

00:19:31   and then the pro does more on top, right?

00:19:33   But it's not like they show,

00:19:35   the MacBook isn't the watching Netflix Mac.

00:19:38   Like that's not how they market that.

00:19:41   So I kind of like that 'cause it's like

00:19:43   understanding what the products are,

00:19:44   like the iPad, this iPad is more of a consumption device

00:19:49   and then the pros are more of a working device.

00:19:53   So the marketing differences.

00:19:55   - Trying to differentiate them and the names make sense.

00:19:58   This is the thing of like Air and Pro was weird,

00:20:00   but now it's just iPad and iPad Pro, which is much clearer.

00:20:03   - Like MacBook and MacBook Pro.

00:20:05   - Exactly right.

00:20:06   Like we're getting to the other side

00:20:09   of Apple's weird name transition

00:20:11   when things were really confusing

00:20:12   and people quite rightly pointed out,

00:20:13   boy, this is really confusing.

00:20:15   They're like, they're trying to get it settled.

00:20:17   They're trying to get this clear distinction

00:20:20   that the Air name doesn't help with,

00:20:22   that now they're trying to get,

00:20:24   which is just its high end or its low end,

00:20:26   and then within there, there are the sizes.

00:20:31   I'm a little surprised that the iPad mini 4,

00:20:33   other than that it's not new.

00:20:35   I think if it was new, they would just call it iPad mini.

00:20:38   - So do I.

00:20:39   I would be willing to make a bet

00:20:41   that the next version of the iPad Pro

00:20:43   is just called iPad Pro,

00:20:44   like it doesn't get a number or anything.

00:20:47   - Yeah, and it would be the iPad Pro,

00:20:49   whatever size it is, 2017.

00:20:51   in the same way that I think the unicorn iPhone will just be called iPhone, right? Like, or

00:20:57   it will be called iPhone Pro or something. I really think that Apple is going to get

00:21:00   away from these ever-increasing numbers because I just don't think, I just don't think it

00:21:04   looks very good like in the abstract. I think that you can come up with more interesting

00:21:08   names and maybe just focus on the numbers a little bit less. I don't think that the

00:21:12   numbers are very, they just don't really say much, I don't think. You know, just like,

00:21:16   oh, this is the next one.

00:21:18   I am a believer, now not from a nerd perspective

00:21:21   of we need to define, you know, if you're doing support

00:21:24   or if you're in IT or anything like that,

00:21:26   where, and people like us, where we need to talk about,

00:21:29   well, which one are you talking about?

00:21:30   And that's when we do, like for this one,

00:21:32   that's when we do, it's the new,

00:21:34   it's the iPad, fifth generation.

00:21:37   Like that's not a name that anybody actually wants to say,

00:21:39   but it's like a footnote, but you have to,

00:21:41   for us, we have to say, oh, it's the fifth generation iPad.

00:21:44   It's not the iPad Air or Air 2

00:21:46   or the fourth generation iPad way back when it is this new model. But from a consumer

00:21:51   standpoint I think it's absolutely the right thing to do to say this is the iPad Pro, it's

00:21:57   always the iPad Pro, we have a new model this year, this is the 2017 iPad Pro, but it's

00:22:02   still just the iPad Pro, and this is the iPad, and this is the iMac, right? I mean the iMac

00:22:06   is a good example of that. The iMac is the iMac, the MacBook Pro is the MacBook Pro,

00:22:10   It isn't the MacBook Pro 6, right?

00:22:13   It is the MacBook Pro.

00:22:16   And the argument could be made that the iPhone is the same way, that this should be this

00:22:20   year's iPhone, the new iPhone.

00:22:22   I want the new iPhone.

00:22:24   The challenge is when you're selling the new iPhone and the old iPhone and the older iPhone,

00:22:31   right?

00:22:32   I think that's the issue, is you'd be better off differentiating by having it be iPhone,

00:22:38   Pro iPhone SE, then you would be saying iPhone 7, iPhone 6S, iPhone 6.

00:22:45   Yeah, I think so.

00:22:46   And that may be where they're going. That rumored $1000 plus iPhone 8 that we've been

00:22:53   talking about absolutely could be the iPhone Pro, and it could be followed sometime the

00:22:58   following year by an SE-like revision of the iPhone 6 or 6S that they call iPhone, and

00:23:06   that's the new model, right? Which is top end is cutting edge, and then the lower end

00:23:13   phones are, you know, or devices are much less likely to be dramatically changed. Occasionally

00:23:19   they'll have a revision. Like, I would imagine that the iPhone SE will not stay looking like

00:23:24   an iPhone 5 forever, but it may do it for a long time. I don't know. Oh, I wanted to

00:23:33   mention something about the SE also is that the iPad, the new iPad actually shares the

00:23:38   same processor as the SE. It's an A9. So that's like apples. This is our kind of, it's good,

00:23:43   but it's like the base level of it's good enough for us to sell this in a new model,

00:23:48   but a low cost model. And a lot of arguments can be made that the A8X that was in the iPad

00:23:53   Air 2 is actually a better processor than in the A9 because of all the graphics performance

00:23:59   enhancements that they make in the X models

00:24:02   that aren't necessarily there.

00:24:03   - Oh, interesting.

00:24:04   - But the old iPad Air 1 had an A7.

00:24:08   So that's the, if you wanna think of it that way,

00:24:10   that's the step up here is they wanted to get away

00:24:13   from like an A7 processor.

00:24:14   So they went to an A9, it's in the same family

00:24:17   as the iPhones and the iPad Pros,

00:24:20   but it's not as souped up as that.

00:24:23   And that's a price and differentiation thing

00:24:26   that they're doing there.

00:24:27   - There was one thing I wanted to just touch on

00:24:29   before we wrap up the iPad versus Pro line,

00:24:32   which is the features, right?

00:24:34   I think that they've done a better job now

00:24:36   of pulling the features apart,

00:24:38   by kind of taking a step back on the display.

00:24:41   So it's not a wide color display,

00:24:43   and it's not a laminated display anymore, right?

00:24:46   - Yeah, and basically they're saying,

00:24:48   no, that's too expensive a feature to be in a 329 tablet.

00:24:52   That's our high end, that's our cutting edge, right?

00:24:54   When they were driving to the cutting edge with the Air 2,

00:24:56   it was worth the extra cost to do that.

00:24:59   But as a 329 product, it's not.

00:25:02   - And then it also has speakers, the Pro line

00:25:04   and the ability for the pencil and smart connector, right?

00:25:07   So you can put the cable on it.

00:25:09   - Right, you have your stereo

00:25:09   or your four speakers and all of that.

00:25:11   And that's all not there.

00:25:13   This is, I think, I don't know which,

00:25:16   I was gonna say phase two, but it's maybe not phase two,

00:25:19   but it's a phase of Tim Cook's product management philosophy

00:25:25   like our not like product management, but like what the offerings managing

00:25:31   Apple's offerings and managing how Apple creates different products at different

00:25:36   price points. I feel like we've entered this new phase now and phase one.

00:25:41   We'll, we'll call it.

00:25:43   I don't know.

00:25:43   Again, I don't, I shouldn't be counting phases was what if we keep the old

00:25:48   products around and drop the price.

00:25:50   So instead of making a low end, whatever, we're just going to, we're just going

00:25:53   keep the old products around, the longer we make them, the cheaper they are to make. We

00:25:58   can just keep them around for a while. The downside of that is you sell an iPad Air 2

00:26:03   to somebody, or I mean an iPad 2, second generation iPad, right? iPad 2 to people four years after

00:26:09   it was introduced as a new iPad, which they did. And then you are saddled with these,

00:26:16   you're saddling people with these old processors, your app developers, your operating system

00:26:21   supporting these old devices that really shouldn't be supported. So there are a lot of downsides

00:26:27   to doing it that way, but they're way cheaper to make. You just keep them in the price line.

00:26:30   You don't have to make a new product. You just keep making them. You've gotten really

00:26:34   good at making iPhone 6s. Just keep making them. And they're cheaper to make every month

00:26:38   that goes by. They're cheaper for you to make, so your profit margin goes up, or you can

00:26:42   cut the price. Great. Phase two is saying, "Okay, that's not the best way to do it. The

00:26:50   The best way to do it is to just to have a clear, lower-priced line that we can update

00:26:55   occasionally so that there's clarity, that there's the high-end and the mid-range and

00:26:59   the low-end or however you want to define it, and that there's less confusion at that

00:27:05   point because you don't have last year's model and this year's model and two years ago's

00:27:10   model all on sale, and it lets you take that mid-range model and make some tweaks to it.

00:27:16   They're not going to upgrade the iPhone 6, right?

00:27:19   not going to put a better processor in the iPhone 6. It wouldn't be an iPhone 6 then.

00:27:24   But they could potentially do what they did with the SE and what they did with this new

00:27:28   iPad, which is just refresh it a little, but still keep most of the things that make it

00:27:34   cheap to make. And so that's why I feel like that's the new phase we're in now. It makes

00:27:42   me think that we will see this on the iPhone at some point, just because it makes more

00:27:46   sense to do it this way, given that they clearly have a preference to keep old product designs

00:27:53   around that are cheaper to make. And you could really argue that people are going to be much

00:28:01   more inclined to buy a new iPad than buy a two-year-old iPad that's at a low price. It's

00:28:08   a new iPad at a low price. Even though the specs might be the same or worse, it's new

00:28:15   and it's just in their price range. And that's, you know, if you went to a car lot, if you

00:28:19   went to a car dealership and they said, "Well, I know you want the 2018 model, but I do have

00:28:24   a 2015. Are you trying to sell me a used car? No, no, it's new. It's just the old model."

00:28:29   I don't know. You know, would people be enthusiastic about that instead of just saying, "Well,

00:28:34   you know, it comes in, this year's model comes in two different price variations and one

00:28:38   of them is a little bit less powerful." I was like, "Oh, well, that actually fits my

00:28:41   budget better. I'll just get that one." That, psychologically, that feels like way better

00:28:45   to me to buy today's model than to buy two years ago's model, which is the problem with

00:28:50   the Tim Cook approach of letting your products just kind of keep being sold and aging out

00:28:55   and going down in price until they're finally irrelevant.

00:29:00   So I think one of the key indicators here, I mean I think Apple is making it abundantly

00:29:04   clear that they have done this to the iPad line to sell an iPad for a lower price. I

00:29:09   I think it's clear, right, that the price is lower.

00:29:13   It's lower than any 9.7 inch iPad price has ever been,

00:29:17   right, for a new product.

00:29:19   And they've clearly made some decisions on this product

00:29:22   to make it cheaper, right?

00:29:23   So I think we can see that.

00:29:25   And one of the key reasons that we have done this,

00:29:27   as well as just trying to drive general adoption

00:29:29   in the iPad line, is to target education.

00:29:33   I think education is really clear here.

00:29:36   And you wrote an article on Macworld,

00:29:38   kind of outlining some of this. And one of the things that Apple may be trying to defend

00:29:42   against is Chromebooks.

00:29:44   Sure absolutely because Chromebooks have been incredibly successful in education, especially

00:29:48   in the US.

00:29:49   Yeah and they're selling well just in general, right? I think in the article you cited, another

00:29:55   Macworld article that talks about last May, Chromebook sales surpassed Mac sales just

00:30:00   in general. And education is where a lot of these are being sold into. So the new iPad,

00:30:07   I mean Apple again like Apple is telegraphing their decisions on this one

00:30:11   The new iPad has an education discount that you can get and it's then priced at two hundred ninety nine dollars

00:30:19   which makes it incredibly competitive with good Chromebooks and

00:30:22   Then again, they've worked with Logitech and Logitech have got this bundle that they're selling

00:30:29   Well, like Apple is selling a bundle right with a Logitech case

00:30:31   Which is it's not a good looking case

00:30:36   No, it's not.

00:30:37   It's called, what is it called, the Rugged?

00:30:39   The Rugged.

00:30:40   Rugged Combo, and it's like this really square, like blocky keyboard case, but like, you know,

00:30:46   it looks like that thing would take a beating, hence why you'd put it in schools.

00:30:51   Yeah, and that's all part of their story.

00:30:54   And again, I don't think, I was looking at Fraser Speer's tweets about this, because

00:30:59   he obviously cares a lot about education, he's a teacher, and he's got a school with

00:31:03   an iPad program, and he is observing this and observing what's going on with Chromebooks.

00:31:10   And what this seems to do, and Fraser thinks this, is, you know, it's not going to make

00:31:17   the iPad price equivalent to a Chromebook. You know, the iPad alone doesn't have a keyboard.

00:31:23   The iPad in this case with a keyboard, you're adding even on more the price of the Logitech

00:31:29   stuff, what it does do is get the iPad a little bit closer within hailing distance of the

00:31:35   Chromebook. And once you get close, then you can compete on other issues, right? I think

00:31:42   that's the idea here, is that if they're only going to compete on price, let's be honest,

00:31:47   Apple's never going to win if you only compete on price with anyone.

00:31:51   Because you can get really cheap crap Chromebooks. You're never going to get a really cheap crap

00:31:56   iPad. So Apple's, and this is true across Apple's product line, so Apple's strategy

00:32:01   is always to tell you it is a little bit more expensive but you get more out of it. And

00:32:07   we can argue about whether that's true or not. I find a lot of people immediately want

00:32:11   to jump in and say, "But, but, but, but, but Chromebooks." And it's like, yeah, okay, that's

00:32:15   the argument that the schools have and that's the argument that the salespeople for companies

00:32:20   making Chromebooks and for Apple have to make to education. They have to make their sales

00:32:25   point but the problem is if the price gulf is so wide that you can't even make the arguments

00:32:29   and I look at this product and I say this gets Apple back in the game of being able

00:32:33   to say look I know the Chromebooks are cheap but let me tell you why ours are better and

00:32:38   they'll last longer and they'll be better for your students and they're more versatile

00:32:43   because they're a tablet and you can get it with the keyboard all of those things so and

00:32:48   Fraser Spears has done the math and you know the this could depending on how you deploy

00:32:52   it. These could be, especially if you're not doing a one-to-one but you're doing like a

00:32:57   smaller group, like a one-to-six kind of deployment, the iPad could be very, very cheaply deployed.

00:33:04   And that's all, you know, you have to be part of the conversation if you want to sell your

00:33:08   product and Apple, I think, is, you know, they're closing the gap enough to be part

00:33:14   of the conversation here.

00:33:15   You remember a short time ago when we were discussing kind of the iPad, its place, you

00:33:19   know when we were looking at all that data right about sales figures we were

00:33:23   hearing from a bunch of people that was like in education and they were waiting

00:33:26   right they were waiting for the next iPad air and I think they've gotten

00:33:31   something even better than that right so like there is there is a strong chance

00:33:35   that there are gonna be a bunch of schools that are like awesome we finally

00:33:38   have that machine that we could buy that and get a new one at a great price.

00:33:41   That's the iPad for us exactly right yeah exactly right and I wonder if this if we're

00:33:46   gonna see an impact on unit sales. I think that would be really interesting to see what

00:33:51   the results look like at this quarter.

00:33:53   Well, we haven't even talked about the, I mean, we mentioned it on a previous show,

00:33:56   the average, if you look at the average selling price for the iPad, so when we get the quarterly

00:34:01   results, one of the things you can do, they say how much iPad, how many units they sold

00:34:05   and how much money they made, or money they, revenue they generated, right? Well, you divide

00:34:09   those and what do you get is the average iPad sold for this many dollars and it's very clear

00:34:17   that after a brief bump when the iPad Pro was released the average selling price has gone way

00:34:22   down and it like the last two quarters so the last six months what iPads have been selling the

00:34:28   cheapest iPads the cheapest iPads have been selling the average selling price of the iPad is quite low

00:34:35   And so it is not hard to look at that and say, "Huh, that's maybe a market that Apple

00:34:44   should find a way to serve." And this is the answer, right? This is the answer, is they

00:34:48   built a product for that market. And they're allowing the iPad to be both of these things,

00:34:56   to be a 329 bare bones iPad that's sold to somebody who just wants an iPad or sold to

00:35:01   education at a further discount, you know, because it's an education price they have,

00:35:06   so it would be even less than what a consumer would pay for it. And then up at the high

00:35:09   end you can buy an iPad Pro with cellular, you know, with a lot of storage for more than

00:35:15   $1,000. And then, you know, you can just choose which path to go and the iPad can serve both.

00:35:21   There was, I just said, like, you know, we're focused on education a little bit here, but

00:35:28   But of course this iPad is for anyone, right? Like, it's good. It's a good machine.

00:35:32   It will run kind of any app well, you know. I think it's perfect for the tasks that

00:35:36   most people use their iPads for, like games and browsing and video, like exactly what

00:35:41   Apple is showing on the marketing pages.

00:35:43   Yeah, I mean, right? A lot of people—that's why I think the numbers are the way they are—is

00:35:50   for a lot of people, the iPad is not—this is the great argument, right? When you get

00:35:54   in an argument about iPad suitability as a pro device, right? It's like there is a segment

00:36:01   of people who really care about the iPad as a pro device. And then there's another segment

00:36:06   who does not, who looks at the iPad and it's like, yeah, but it's just an iPad. All I really

00:36:10   want to do is watch some videos and play some games and check my email. Like, all right,

00:36:15   here we go. We've got, we've got some clarity here about this, that we've got 329 iPad and

00:36:23   then $599 iPad Pro. And that is pretty clear, right? $270 difference between those two.

00:36:36   So that's what it's like. You can save $270 if you don't care about all that other stuff.

00:36:41   And the reality is that somebody who cares enough about the iPad Pro, I find it actually

00:36:45   a little curious that the iPad Pros still offer a 32 gig version because at some point

00:36:50   you could probably take that away or increase it to 64 and increase the price

00:36:55   a little bit because you're no longer trying to get the iPad Pro down to the

00:36:58   low low price to get people in who don't care about that stuff and if the iPad

00:37:02   Pro is serving a more professional power user specs focused market then you have

00:37:09   the freedom and we may see this in the new generation of iPad Pros you have the

00:37:13   freedom to raise the price and raise the specs because they're paying for those

00:37:18   specs. So does anybody really want a 32 gig 12.9 inch iPad Pro? Probably not. So get it

00:37:25   out of there. You don't need it now. Other iPads serve that market.

00:37:29   A couple of tidbits about this iPad. Jason mentioned fifth generation. So I want to run

00:37:38   through what this product line has been called. If we call this a regular iPad, so the evolution

00:37:45   of the original iPad. This is what it's been called over time. iPad, iPad 2, the new iPad

00:37:50   with Retina display, iPad Air, iPad Air 2, and now iPad. And Apple is calling this the

00:37:57   fifth generation iPad in technical and support documents.

00:38:00   Yeah, it's actually iPad, iPad 2, iPad with Retina display. Well, or the new iPad with

00:38:08   Retina display. iPad with Retina display, right? Did you say that twice?

00:38:13   Oh.

00:38:14   - 'Cause there's the third and the fourth, right?

00:38:16   Because they did the quick turnaround

00:38:17   where the third generation iPad was the first retina iPad.

00:38:20   And they said, this is just the new iPad.

00:38:21   But really what it was is it was an iPad third generation.

00:38:24   And then like not very long, nine months later,

00:38:27   six months later, they came out

00:38:28   with the fourth generation model

00:38:30   because the third generation model,

00:38:31   which we had one of those,

00:38:32   we really struggled to drive all of those pixels.

00:38:36   And then they did an upgrade

00:38:37   and the fourth generation model

00:38:38   was a much more capable retina iPad.

00:38:40   And then they went air and air tube.

00:38:42   So in some ways, this is the seventh iPad, mainstream iPad, or even arguably the eighth,

00:38:50   but they're not counting it that way.

00:38:52   They're counting it as the fifth.

00:38:54   The iPad Air was a divergence.

00:38:56   The iPad Pro was a divergence.

00:38:57   But this is the fifth model to be called just iPad.

00:39:02   iPad 2 got retconned.

00:39:04   It's iPad 2, mean second-generation iPad, apparently, but they steered away from that

00:39:09   pretty quickly on the iPad side.

00:39:11   Mini still has a number. I don't know. It's inconsistent. I get the feeling that they're

00:39:15   calling in all the debts and going to the mattresses and pretty soon all the numbers

00:39:21   are going to be gone.

00:39:22   David: And one last little tidbit. I have to mention it because everyone in the UK will

00:39:26   be super mad if I don't. So this iPad is I think the first product to actually cost more

00:39:34   in pure number value in pounds than dollars. So the £329 iPad is £339. So the actual

00:39:46   currency conversion makes it $429. That's what £339 is. So it's just an interesting

00:39:54   thing to see that not only is it, you know, it's always more expensive, right, just in

00:39:59   like currency conversion, but now just like the actual numbers, it is a £339 iPad. And

00:40:06   that's Brexit. So yeah, I was gonna say just just to put this in perspective, when I last

00:40:12   went to the UK, it was about $1.6 to the pound. And it's $1.26 to the pound now. Yep. And

00:40:26   And we see this a lot in, which is great because I'm going to the UK next week, so yay, the

00:40:30   whole country is cheaper. But thank you for that. Thank you for your economy being potentially

00:40:36   destroyed Myke. It makes it cheaper for American tourists. Anyway, Apple has to deal with this

00:40:42   worldwide right? Because Apple deals in American dollars and so Apple has this challenge overseas

00:40:46   and what they don't want to do is have fluctuating prices where depending on the day you walk

00:40:49   into an Apple store in Australia or in the United Kingdom or anywhere else, that iPad

00:40:55   costs slightly different because of currency, they're not going to do that. But they've

00:40:59   been burned a bunch of times, so I think they want to be competitive, they don't want to

00:41:05   be priced out of markets. We've seen that. Actually, historically Apple has been really

00:41:09   bad in Australia where they've overpriced their systems in Australia because they claim

00:41:14   because of conversions but it ended up being way more expensive than it was to buy it in

00:41:18   the States. And that's still true from place to place, but this is an interesting example

00:41:21   or Apple's just said, "No, we're gonna protect ourselves."

00:41:24   I think this is Apple, to your point,

00:41:27   I think this is Apple protecting against more

00:41:29   drop in the pound.

00:41:31   - 'Cause it's gonna happen.

00:41:32   - From Brexit.

00:41:33   And so they're just pricing it where they think

00:41:35   it's gonna go.

00:41:36   - The end of this week is when we trigger Article 50,

00:41:40   which is the UK saying to the EU,

00:41:44   "Oh, you know, we're definitely going."

00:41:46   So it's very likely that the pound will take another hit

00:41:49   at that point.

00:41:50   Apple, I think, is quite rightly for a business, they are forecasting that it's going to be

00:41:55   more and more expensive for them to sell products here, so they're preparing for it.

00:41:58   Yeah, and Apple would rather not change the price of this product later? That's really

00:42:04   what's going on here. Let's say that something happens in the UK and the strength of the

00:42:09   pound goes way back up. Then, yeah, then maybe in six months or a year Apple goes, "Okay,

00:42:16   we gotta change the price." But right now, they're anticipating it's going to go the

00:42:19   other way and what this sort of placing a bet and this allows them to not change the

00:42:24   price. Whereas on some of their other products if the pound keeps going down they will continue

00:42:30   probably to reprice every so often but I know they hate to do that right you want to be

00:42:35   consistent the last thing you want to do is do a price hike in a country but you know

00:42:41   but those valuations eat into their profit margins you know right because in the end

00:42:45   and they're paying what they're paying and it's a consistent amount and then suddenly

00:42:50   the money that's coming back to them if they bring it back. Of course, they leave a lot

00:42:54   of cash outside of the US but I think that they're thinking in terms of the dollar and

00:43:00   so they want it to be priced consistently around the world. The net result of this is

00:43:06   that if you wanted one of these you would buy it when you're in the US, right?

00:43:11   I'm gonna be reverting to a lot of my decisions that I made a few years ago, which was to

00:43:16   pick up some devices that were not critical when I'm making US trips.

00:43:22   Well, and an iPad you could get…

00:43:25   Of course, and then I will pay the taxes at the border.

00:43:28   The challenge is with… you can't buy a laptop in the US, right? Because you're

00:43:32   gonna get the ridiculous US keyboard.

00:43:35   I've done it.

00:43:37   Can you buy a UK keyboard at the US Apple Store?

00:43:42   Not at the store.

00:43:43   You might be able to buy it online.

00:43:45   Online I mean and then have it shipped to wherever you're going to be.

00:43:48   You can buy US layout keyboards in the UK.

00:43:53   So of course, USA.

00:43:55   I'm sure you could probably do the same in the other way.

00:44:01   Let's just talk real quickly about the missing iPads from last week's announcements.

00:44:05   I think that we are all pretty much expecting an iPad Pro bump.

00:44:10   - Not happening yet.

00:44:13   - So these aren't it, rightly.

00:44:14   These are not that.

00:44:16   - No.

00:44:17   - So where are they, Jason?

00:44:20   Where is the 9.7 and 12.9 inch?

00:44:22   Where are they?

00:44:24   - I have some theories.

00:44:25   One theory is that there's an iOS update

00:44:27   that's required for them that isn't ready.

00:44:29   And so they are saving them for another,

00:44:33   it could be an event in April.

00:44:34   could be another press release in April or May. They could save them for WWDC in June.

00:44:43   They could save them for the fall for iOS 11. There's a lot of things that they could

00:44:46   do that they're getting a little long in the tooth in the sense that the iPad Pro 12.9

00:44:54   was announced in September of '15 but didn't ship until like December of '15, I think,

00:45:00   November of '15. Late, anyway. But still, it's been more than a year, and it's been

00:45:07   about a year for the iPad Pro 9.7 now. So if they're keeping that on a year-ish schedule,

00:45:15   you would think that there would be one soon. And there are rumors out there about them,

00:45:18   but we don't have them yet. I mean, the thing about Apple doing things by press release

00:45:23   is that they—it doesn't take a long time to do a press release. I mean, there's a lot

00:45:29   of work in the background. I had this conversation with Michael Gartenburg on Twitter the other

00:45:32   week because he used to work at Apple. There's work that goes into product launches, right?

00:45:38   It's not like they can flip a switch and launch a product. There's not just the product but

00:45:42   the crafting and all that. But the work to release a product by press release is less

00:45:46   than the work to release a product by event because then you have to set do event planning

00:45:51   and that takes time. If it's not on an on-campus venue, that takes more time and there's more

00:45:57   opportunity for leaks and things like that. So this is, you know, I think it's an open

00:46:04   question. Will Apple even do an event between now and WWDC? It's possible that they won't

00:46:08   and they don't need to, right? We all covered and are still covering those press releases

00:46:13   from last Tuesday. It'd be very easy for Apple to do that or to brief some key journalists

00:46:18   beforehand, although they very rarely brief journalists on unannounced hardware. But they

00:46:23   could try it. Apple's doing a lot of things that they didn't used to do. So, you know.

00:46:27   And not a lot of things that they used to do. And the new iPads, like, those new iPads

00:46:32   that we're talking about are not new, right? They're speed bumps, like we would call them.

00:46:38   They're internals upgrades, right? There's probably not going to be a new... Now, if

00:46:42   a 10.5-inch iPad exists, I think they would want to introduce that in an event. But they

00:46:49   could rev the iPad Pros now if they wanted to, like buy a press release tomorrow or in

00:46:55   two weeks if they wanted to, whenever, and hold that 10.5 for the fall, that's a big

00:47:02   step up for that product line. So maybe that's a fall product or maybe it's a WWDC product.

00:47:08   They could totally do that. I think for me right now, that's my best guess about what

00:47:13   the dividing line is between we need to have an event and not, is if it's an entirely new

00:47:17   product that's a computing device, not like a new trackpad or something like that, an

00:47:23   entirely new product, I think you want to have a stage for it and not just do that by

00:47:28   press release.

00:47:29   So I've been thinking a lot about this, right? About the iPad Pro and I'm thinking that our

00:47:37   expectations of what the next iPad Pros were going to be, if that was what it was, we would

00:47:43   have got them last week which was new processors and like the 12 like in the

00:47:48   9.7 because we were expecting there to be a 9.7 and then maybe new processors

00:47:54   and the true tone in the 12.9 right so like they basically are the same but

00:47:57   they just have some speed bumps and some slight changes to them but we also had

00:48:01   this rumor right of this magical 10.5 inch iPad Pro so what I'm starting to

00:48:07   think now is that the rumor was always from the supply chain that there were

00:48:11   going to be three iPad Pro sizes, right?

00:48:14   Right.

00:48:15   I don't think there ever was going to be.

00:48:17   I think what now, like, more I've been thinking about this, what the supply chain thought

00:48:22   was the 9.7-inch iPad Pro was the iPad we got.

00:48:26   Is this one.

00:48:27   And that we'll get an iPad Pro announcement in June or, you know, at some point this year.

00:48:32   But there will only be two of them.

00:48:34   The 10.5 and the 12.9.

00:48:36   Yep.

00:48:37   Hopefully, maybe, and I think John Gruber said this in a piece, I haven't actually read

00:48:41   yet, but it's in my queue to read, that he thinks that the 12 9 would get the same kind

00:48:47   of design as the 10 5, and that maybe they wouldn't do any of this until after the next

00:48:53   iPhone is released, because the iPhone will probably go bezel as first.

00:48:58   Yeah.

00:48:59   I mean, I don't know about that, but I do think that they would release two of them together

00:49:04   that look the same, I think.

00:49:06   It could happen that the iPhone gets released first, this rumored bezel-less iPhone, followed

00:49:13   by the iPad.

00:49:14   I don't think I believe that Apple wouldn't release a bezel-reduced iPad in advance of

00:49:20   the iPhone because they're afraid that it will steal its bezel thunder.

00:49:23   Right, yeah, yeah.

00:49:25   I don't think that, right?

00:49:29   I mean, like, well, it stole the True Tone thunder of the iPhone.

00:49:34   The iPad has features the iPhone doesn't have and it's okay, right?

00:49:37   It's okay, they're different.

00:49:38   It has the smart connector, it has True Tone.

00:49:42   I also think that this iPad will not be as bezel-less as the iPhone will be.

00:49:47   I agree with that, right.

00:49:49   And it also won't be an OLED screen, I don't think.

00:49:51   Exactly, right?

00:49:52   So I just don't believe that one.

00:49:54   That's an argument.

00:49:55   It could be true, but I don't see any evidence that Apple is going to withhold, "Oh, we've

00:50:01   got this great new iPad ready to go but it's got kind of really reduced bezels

00:50:06   and we've got another product coming in six months that's got some reduced

00:50:10   bezels too and so we better wait and hold this product back while the other

00:50:16   one premieres. Nah, I mean I just I just don't I I have a hard time believing

00:50:22   that that is reason enough to hold that product back that maybe there are other

00:50:25   reasons but I think they could absolutely release that product and

00:50:29   Maybe it's a, you know, a hint of things to come.

00:50:32   That's, yeah, I think Apple could get away with it easily

00:50:36   and they wouldn't hold it back.

00:50:37   So I'm skeptical about that approach,

00:50:39   that thought about Apple's approach.

00:50:42   - This is where I think we are, right?

00:50:44   I think that there is this new design coming to the pros,

00:50:47   which will even further push the pro line away

00:50:50   from the regular iPad,

00:50:52   and that there was never gonna be a 9.7 inch iPad Pro.

00:50:55   There was always just gonna be this 10.5 and a 12.9.

00:50:58   But they're not ready yet.

00:51:00   And the 9.7 inch iPad Pro was actually an iPad.

00:51:03   And that's what we got.

00:51:04   - Makes a lot of sense if you think about like,

00:51:07   why would we have two iPads that are the same size

00:51:09   but have different screens, right?

00:51:10   Now we know the answer.

00:51:11   - Well, that was always the weirdest part of the rumor.

00:51:13   The only explanation was that it was like

00:51:15   what the iPhones are gonna be like,

00:51:17   where the iPad Pros stay the same,

00:51:18   but the 10.5 is this more expensive model in the middle.

00:51:22   But I don't, you know, even then it was like,

00:51:24   well, that's muddying the iPad Pro line

00:51:26   past the point it needs to be.

00:51:28   So they could just have two of them, you know?

00:51:31   And it makes me feel better about this idea that the 9.7 or the 10.5, in case, that size

00:51:37   is the iPad mini of the 12.9.

00:51:40   That in the end, what are the iPad Pros?

00:51:44   The iPad Pros are this higher resolution.

00:51:47   They're the big screen, and there's a big one and a little one that have the same resolution.

00:51:50   The apps look the same on both of them.

00:51:52   They have the smart connector.

00:51:54   Presumably, they'll both have P3 color gamut.

00:51:56   They'll both have true tone.

00:51:57   that, you know, they will have, we will have finally after a year plus of weirdness, a

00:52:04   rev of the iPad Pros could get them parallel, where the features are the same, like all

00:52:09   the features are the same except the physical size of it. And I think that would be great.

00:52:13   I think that would be really good for the iPad. And as we said earlier, I think you

00:52:18   call them the iPad, the new iPad Pros in these sizes, and you don't call them generation

00:52:23   whatever and you don't age out the old ones for cheaper. You do it like you do a laptop,

00:52:29   which is, the old ones are gone, the new ones are here, and if you want cheaper, get an

00:52:33   iPad. Don't get last year's iPad Pro, get an iPad if you want cheaper. But the iPad

00:52:37   Pro costs what it costs.

00:52:39   Yep.

00:52:40   Which I think is how you have to do it.

00:52:41   And they just did that to the Air, right? Like they've shown that they're willing to

00:52:43   do that in the iPad line. You can't buy an iPad Air anymore. That regular 9.7 inch screen

00:52:50   iPad there's one of them. They just cut out the old ones, put in the new one, job done.

00:52:56   And that's what I think we both think we would hope they'll do with the iPad Pro.

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00:54:29   Breaking, breaking news, breaking news as is tradition on upgrade.

00:54:35   as we record this, Apple has released software updates.

00:54:40   And this time it's worth talking about at least briefly

00:54:43   because they're the final versions.

00:54:46   Woo!

00:54:47   So iOS, we can't tell you about them

00:54:50   'cause they just came out, but iOS 10.3

00:54:53   and I think Mac OS 10.12.4 should be coming out too

00:54:57   and the watchOS update, they're all out there.

00:55:00   - I think iOS 10.3 is big consumer feature

00:55:03   is find my AirPods, right?

00:55:06   - Right, that's it.

00:55:07   Adding AirPods to find my iPhone.

00:55:09   They say more ways to use Siri with pavement,

00:55:13   ride booking and automaker apps.

00:55:15   And APFS, right?

00:55:18   I think APFS, the new file system happens

00:55:20   in the background too. - Yes, yeah,

00:55:21   the new file system.

00:55:22   - But it's out now, so we'll,

00:55:25   we have nothing to report about it.

00:55:26   These are basically minor updates.

00:55:28   Oh, and the Mac OS update should add Night Shift.

00:55:33   I believe that's a Mac OS. I think that's a Mac OS feature in that update too.

00:55:40   That feels like, funnily enough, it feels like the Mac OS is getting the biggest feature

00:55:44   out of both of these releases.

00:55:46   Yeah, but it's a feature that was already in iOS.

00:55:48   I know, I know.

00:55:49   So they just got it laid.

00:55:50   I know, I know. But you know, that's really cool for the Mac, I think. You know, I'm excited

00:55:55   about that. Not that I'm going to be running Sierra on my iMac because I'm a scared person.

00:56:00   I did just put it on my MacBook though.

00:56:03   - I did, I just, so I'm bringing,

00:56:06   because I'm doing many, many, many, many podcasts

00:56:08   while I'm traveling.

00:56:09   - All the great shows you might say?

00:56:11   - All the great shows, turns out.

00:56:13   So I updated my MacBook Air.

00:56:17   My trusty 11 inch MacBook Air will be joining me in Europe

00:56:22   and, sorry, in Europe and also in the UK.

00:56:26   Oh, look what I did there.

00:56:28   - This is not, I want, you just, I don't,

00:56:33   we're not being thrown out of the continent, you know?

00:56:36   - Well, I think geography kind of threw you

00:56:38   out of the continent, right?

00:56:39   There's some water in the way there,

00:56:40   but I know it's painful.

00:56:42   So MacBook Air is updated to Sierra,

00:56:45   which I didn't do for a long time.

00:56:45   - If you wanna do this, right?

00:56:46   I mean, you're hardly in the best political climate.

00:56:49   - Oh no, I was gonna say that the dark, dark humor,

00:56:53   black humor is the order of the day, Myke.

00:56:56   That's all I can do.

00:56:58   So my MacBook Air, my trusty 11-inch MacBook Air

00:57:00   that I didn't take on my last trip to Europe

00:57:02   because I had a test MacBook Pro, right?

00:57:03   But I'm back to the 11-inch Air

00:57:05   and I'm gonna bring it with me.

00:57:06   It's great for podcast editing and it's a little more

00:57:09   versatile and I don't wanna,

00:57:11   I'm doing a lot of podcast editing when I'm there

00:57:14   because I'm doing OOL radio.

00:57:16   And so I wanna have my, I wanna have logic.

00:57:18   I don't wanna use my iPad for that

00:57:21   because I don't wanna stress it.

00:57:23   I'm concerned that I might let down the good people at OOL

00:57:27   if I have any technical problems and I don't want to do that.

00:57:30   And the MacBook Air is very small,

00:57:32   but I did upgrade it to Sierra finally,

00:57:34   because I just decided now is the time.

00:57:37   I was using it as the compare device of compare.

00:57:42   If I look at something and say, was this in El Capitan?

00:57:45   I could open my laptop and see,

00:57:47   and now I can't check that anymore

00:57:49   because I'm running Sierra everywhere.

00:57:51   But so I'm, yeah.

00:57:53   So I finally did the same thing you did.

00:57:54   It's laptop, laptop is on there,

00:57:56   but my Mac's been on Sierra for almost a year now,

00:58:00   'cause you know, really since last summer.

00:58:02   - So last Friday, it came out via TechCrunch

00:58:09   that Apple had acquired Workflow,

00:58:12   the application that I use a lot, Federico uses a lot,

00:58:18   and then you use some, and you know,

00:58:20   I know that we spoke about it at the top of the show,

00:58:23   that you use it, I use it.

00:58:25   It's an application that many people use to help them do

00:58:29   additional things on iOS and power user things,

00:58:31   some stuff that otherwise iOS struggles with.

00:58:34   Kind of for anybody that uses iPads or iPhones

00:58:38   to get their work done, Workflow is a really,

00:58:41   really useful tool.

00:58:42   In fact, it's a useful toolbox of little things

00:58:45   that you can do that are made easier on iOS

00:58:49   because Workflow exists.

00:58:51   Apple has bought the app and the team.

00:58:55   So I think the three founders,

00:58:58   and then they had one engineer

00:59:00   who was going to work with them.

00:59:01   So I believe team of four

00:59:03   were all going over to work at the mothership.

00:59:07   And the app is still around.

00:59:10   It's actually free now.

00:59:11   I think it used to be like 2.99 or 4.99,

00:59:13   something like that.

00:59:15   And it is remaining in the store.

00:59:18   We don't know how long for,

00:59:19   but we assume for a significant amount of time

00:59:22   because they changed the business model for it, right?

00:59:24   They made it a free app.

00:59:26   Apple also made, not Apple,

00:59:29   but the workflow team made an update as well,

00:59:32   which removes some features,

00:59:34   change some features, add, fix some bugs, right?

00:59:36   There's some stuff going on.

00:59:38   So I wanted to ask you, Jason,

00:59:39   now you've, I'm sure over time,

00:59:42   have seen Apple acquisitions of services,

00:59:45   of teams, of applications, you know,

00:59:47   You've seen Apple Sherlock things.

00:59:50   - Sherlocking is a little different, but yeah.

00:59:53   I mean, Sherlocking, this is, somebody could argue

00:59:56   that workflow being bought by Apple

00:59:58   is preventing it from being Sherlocked

01:00:00   because Sherlocking is the approach where there's a feature,

01:00:03   we mentioned night shift earlier, right?

01:00:05   There were some like jailbreak apps that did that

01:00:08   and on the Mac, there are apps that do that.

01:00:10   And now Apple with this Mac release,

01:00:12   Apple is Sherlocking the night shift like apps on the Mac.

01:00:17   by building a feature that was previously

01:00:19   in a third party app into the operating system.

01:00:22   And there are extenuating circumstances there

01:00:23   and that's a good example.

01:00:24   But of course the Sherlock app was a great example of that,

01:00:27   where there was an app called Watson

01:00:29   that did a lot of web queries when you typed in search

01:00:31   and then Apple released Sherlock,

01:00:32   which did the exact same thing and did it in the system.

01:00:36   And that was that, you know,

01:00:37   so you could argue that maybe if Apple felt like they needed

01:00:40   to move down the path of doing iOS automation,

01:00:43   that they would have to Sherlock workflow.

01:00:46   They would have to make workflow basically irrelevant

01:00:51   by building their own integrated system level

01:00:55   automation system.

01:00:57   And so you could maybe make the argument

01:00:59   that this purchase saves workflow from being Sherlocked.

01:01:02   - So based on your history,

01:01:05   what do you think is gonna happen to workflow?

01:01:09   - Well, I mean, there's the pessimistic view

01:01:12   and the optimistic view.

01:01:13   I choose to be optimistic, Myke.

01:01:16   I choose to be optimistic.

01:01:17   If you look, and there are examples, you know,

01:01:20   Siri has been brought up that Siri was bought

01:01:22   and integrated into the Core OS.

01:01:24   TestFlight was bought and integrated into the Core OS.

01:01:27   The, or the core workflow of what it was meant to do.

01:01:32   Like TestFlight still does what it did before.

01:01:35   In some ways it does it way better

01:01:36   because it's got the power of Apple behind it now.

01:01:38   So I'm choosing to be optimistic.

01:01:40   I'm choosing to decide that the reason Apple bought Workflow

01:01:42   was not because they thought the workflow engineers

01:01:44   were really brilliant,

01:01:46   and they always are in the market

01:01:48   for more brilliant iOS engineers,

01:01:50   and they don't really want workflow,

01:01:52   but they want the people, and it's an aqua hire, right?

01:01:55   And the people who workflow, like,

01:01:57   couldn't make the business work,

01:01:58   and were seeking an acquisition,

01:02:00   and this was a lifeboat for them.

01:02:02   That's the pessimistic view here.

01:02:03   I choose to be optimistic and think Apple liked workflow,

01:02:07   was well aware of it,

01:02:08   has been working with those guys for quite a while

01:02:11   on getting them approved, right?

01:02:12   'cause I think it was unclear whether this was

01:02:14   an approvable app to begin with.

01:02:16   - They want an ADA.

01:02:17   - And they want an ADA, right?

01:02:19   All of these ties there.

01:02:21   So I choose to believe that Apple is well aware

01:02:25   of the power of this.

01:02:26   And when you're looking at the iPad Pro

01:02:27   and you're looking at the future of iOS

01:02:29   as an environment that needs to offer more

01:02:33   to people who have more needs, the power users of iOS,

01:02:37   and that may not all be doing automation,

01:02:41   But like, if you've got a product like the iPad Pro

01:02:43   and you're really trying to push people

01:02:44   on what the iPad Pro can do,

01:02:46   and you think it's the future

01:02:48   of your professional computer platform in the long run,

01:02:53   which goes back to something we've talked about before

01:02:55   about like, is the Mac around 10 years from now

01:02:59   as anything but a legacy product?

01:03:01   What is Apple's focus on what the replacement

01:03:03   for the Mac is in five or 10 years?

01:03:05   The answer is probably iOS, because that's their new,

01:03:09   modern next-generation operating system and it's already here, but this is a

01:03:13   missing piece, right? Workflow works within the context of iOS, but it does

01:03:18   this thing that the system should probably do and doesn't. And that they

01:03:22   looked at this and said, "Why would we, you know, if we could buy these guys, we

01:03:27   can integrate this app into the system and give them access to stuff they don't

01:03:31   have access to now, and we can keep it from having access to things that are,

01:03:37   you know, security problems, but we can give them access to things that other apps don't get access to.

01:03:41   And we can use this as the foundation of our automation strategy on iOS, and maybe on macOS too,

01:03:47   but certainly on iOS, that this—it's proven to work, and people love it, and so why not pick it up?

01:03:53   Like how Twitter picked up @replies and hashtags and said, "Oh, that's a great idea, people who are not at Twitter.

01:04:00   Let's do that," that Apple's like, "Oh, workflow, X-callback URL, these are all—look, everybody made it work.

01:04:07   We're gonna authorize it, we're gonna make it official,

01:04:09   we're gonna consecrate that and say,

01:04:11   "Yes, this is how you do that," and then build on it.

01:04:14   So that's my optimistic view,

01:04:16   is that this will turn into something

01:04:18   that will be different and will potentially have limitations

01:04:23   that workflow on the outside didn't have,

01:04:27   but will also have a whole lot of power

01:04:30   that workflow on the outside did not have access to,

01:04:33   and that Apple will have people internally

01:04:37   who are pushing to open,

01:04:39   that's the part that really excites me,

01:04:40   pushing to open stuff that's just been barred,

01:04:42   that like you can't do that, apps can't do that,

01:04:46   but that the system can do,

01:04:48   and that like Apple's apps can do,

01:04:49   that potentially workflow could do,

01:04:51   to make this all better for people

01:04:54   who wanna to connect this stuff together.

01:04:57   And I feel like this is one of the great things

01:04:59   about workflow is that workflow is all about connecting apps

01:05:03   And the apps have been so successful on iOS,

01:05:06   and Workflow fits into Apple's view of the world on iOS,

01:05:10   which is Workflow is a tool that lets your apps

01:05:14   talk to each other and talk to Workflow

01:05:18   and build things out of the power of all of your apps

01:05:21   that the individual apps can't do themselves.

01:05:24   Like it's a good story on top of it.

01:05:26   So that's my optimism,

01:05:28   is that Apple will actually keep doing something

01:05:31   like workflow, maybe even keeping it called workflow

01:05:34   and have it be much more of a central part

01:05:37   in the operating system going forward

01:05:39   because or next to the operating system

01:05:43   like Swift Playgrounds is not quite in,

01:05:46   but it's adjacent and have, you know,

01:05:49   the ability to broaden and have Apple bless their approach

01:05:55   for power user stuff on iOS.

01:05:58   - Do you envision that some of this advancement

01:06:00   will occur if vast mental workflows previously occurred

01:06:03   with updates to the application?

01:06:05   Or do you think it's gonna be all quiet on the Western front

01:06:09   until a version of iOS in which workflow

01:06:12   is part of the system, or is like how you can download

01:06:15   something like iTunes U, but it's all redesigned,

01:06:18   it's part of the Apple system,

01:06:20   and it has more features all in one?

01:06:22   - It could be that workflow is its own thing,

01:06:27   and it could be that workflow sinks beneath the sea,

01:06:30   and it's replaced with some automation settings somewhere.

01:06:35   I feel like, just like with Automator,

01:06:38   there will be an app and it might just be called Workflow.

01:06:41   - Yeah.

01:06:42   - It's a good name.

01:06:43   - It's great.

01:06:43   - I think it's a better name than Automator.

01:06:44   - It's way better.

01:06:45   - Maybe it'll get a more boring icon.

01:06:48   (laughing)

01:06:50   - Yeah, it probably will, right?

01:06:52   - But, you know, I think it works.

01:06:56   - All right, so let me ask you a question.

01:06:58   Assuming that Apple bought this app to enhance automation

01:07:02   on iOS and maybe on macOS, right?

01:07:04   They might bring something like this to macOS.

01:07:07   Why was Sal Seguin let go?

01:07:09   - Well, I mean, who knows?

01:07:15   My, who knows?

01:07:16   Sal maybe doesn't even know.

01:07:18   People at Apple know.

01:07:19   I look at this and I think,

01:07:20   Apple wants to change its approach to automation.

01:07:24   that the Apple, that Sal and his team,

01:07:29   somebody could make the argument

01:07:31   they were rooted in Apple script,

01:07:33   which is typing in big scripting language stuff like that,

01:07:38   somebody could make the argument

01:07:40   is a very kind of the '80s and '90s approach

01:07:43   and that they did automator,

01:07:44   but that it's still based on Apple events

01:07:48   and scripting and things like that.

01:07:50   And then maybe Apple has a new approach.

01:07:52   It could be politics.

01:07:53   It could be literally like these guys are gonna fight us

01:07:56   on keeping all this old stuff around

01:07:58   and we just wanna clear the board and do something new.

01:08:00   I don't know, I really don't know.

01:08:03   It doesn't make sense.

01:08:05   The narrative that Apple doesn't care about automation

01:08:09   and that's why they killed the team doesn't really follow

01:08:12   if they buy workflow for automation.

01:08:14   Instead, you have to have a narrative

01:08:15   that either they're not buying workflow for automation

01:08:17   but just take the people,

01:08:19   or the issues with Sal and his team

01:08:23   were not about automation per se,

01:08:26   but about maybe their approach

01:08:28   or their political liabilities in the organization.

01:08:32   I mean, it's entirely possible that there's just groups

01:08:36   within Apple that said, I don't like those guys,

01:08:38   I don't trust those guys.

01:08:40   And clearly they had a, from what I do know,

01:08:43   is that there was a problematic relationship

01:08:46   between that group and other parts of Apple.

01:08:48   and they were frustrated by it.

01:08:51   So I don't know.

01:08:53   That it's all speculation.

01:08:56   That's all I can say is that I don't,

01:08:59   I literally do not know the backstory about why they did it.

01:09:02   But that's my gut feeling

01:09:04   is it has something to do with that.

01:09:05   They either didn't like their approach

01:09:07   or didn't believe them when they said

01:09:09   that they embraced other approaches

01:09:11   or there was some political issue where they're like,

01:09:15   I don't want those guys around anymore.

01:09:18   but I don't know. I can come up with a menu of possibilities,

01:09:22   but that's about it.

01:09:23   - I think the logic is sound though, right?

01:09:24   Like that there was somebody disagreed with someone

01:09:27   when it came to looking at the future of automation

01:09:30   on Apple platforms, right?

01:09:33   Like however it was done, right?

01:09:35   Like whether like it was Apple didn't agree

01:09:39   with where Sal wanted to go,

01:09:40   or Sal didn't agree where Apple wanted to go,

01:09:42   and then maybe the workflow thing was also built into it.

01:09:44   Like it looks like that there was a difference of opinion,

01:09:47   Because as you say, clearly, clearly Apple has not said,

01:09:50   we don't believe in automation

01:09:52   because they just bought an app that does it

01:09:55   and are keeping it around, right?

01:09:57   And for what we've seen so far,

01:10:00   continuing to allow the team to support that application

01:10:03   and have set it up so it can continue, right?

01:10:06   So they clearly are not against automation,

01:10:10   but there was something about maybe the old ways of working

01:10:14   that they didn't want to continue with,

01:10:16   or whatever it might be.

01:10:18   Pure speculation, of course.

01:10:20   I will say that something kind of cool,

01:10:22   I think this is very cool actually,

01:10:24   Sal Seguin was on Mac Power Users this week,

01:10:26   on episode 370.

01:10:27   I'll put a link in the show notes

01:10:28   in case you wanna go and check that.

01:10:30   But I will ask Jason, would you wanna see workflow for Mac?

01:10:34   - Yes, in the long run.

01:10:37   Because, what I try to do is imagine

01:10:41   what that might look like,

01:10:42   and I think what it might look like

01:10:44   is Apple saying, here's what we're gonna do is,

01:10:46   Apple events are gonna be deprecated,

01:10:49   and we're gonna do everything through URLs,

01:10:51   like we do on iOS.

01:10:53   And you register for URLs, custom URLs,

01:10:57   and data gets passed in the URL string.

01:10:59   And you have access to the share buttons in apps,

01:11:04   and you have access via widgets,

01:11:07   and you have access via items in the finder

01:11:11   that basically are running the background workflow service,

01:11:16   and it basically replaces Automator,

01:11:19   and maybe it has hooks in it

01:11:21   for more traditional scripting stuff

01:11:23   like shell scripts or Apple scripts or whatever,

01:11:26   but that really what you're doing is saying,

01:11:29   in the long run, this is how we've decided

01:11:31   across all platforms to connect apps together.

01:11:33   And most modern app developers on iOS have embraced this,

01:11:39   so Mac developers embrace it too.

01:11:41   I don't know whether they would do that or not.

01:11:43   It depends on how much of a legacy they feel,

01:11:45   a legacy system they feel Mac OS is.

01:11:48   They might be like, you know, you got Automator,

01:11:50   you got AppleScript, whatever.

01:11:53   I do wonder if there is another shoe to drop here.

01:11:56   And Swift is what I keep coming back to,

01:11:58   which is it wouldn't surprise me if Apple pushes Swift

01:12:01   as the next generation of user scripting for Mac and iOS.

01:12:06   That they go beyond Swift Playgrounds.

01:12:08   They say, you know, when they talked to Chris Latner on ATP,

01:12:12   I think he mentioned this at one point that, you know,

01:12:15   Swift is designed to be everything from, you know,

01:12:18   server development environment to app development,

01:12:20   to user scripting, to, you know,

01:12:22   to a much simpler sort of scripting approach.

01:12:25   It should be able to do all of those things ultimately.

01:12:29   And so I do wonder about that.

01:12:31   If maybe that's their,

01:12:32   that what they're really doing here is saying, look,

01:12:34   we're gonna kill AppleScript.

01:12:37   we're gonna maybe kill Apple events on the Mac

01:12:42   or deprecate them because every app uses it now.

01:12:46   But in the long run, instead, we're gonna use

01:12:49   this other protocol, or even if they keep it around,

01:12:53   but the story is gonna be swift.

01:12:54   That might happen on both platforms.

01:12:57   Part of me just thinks, are they gonna wanna bring that

01:13:00   to the Mac or are they just gonna let the Mac?

01:13:02   This is a small version of the larger argument,

01:13:04   which is why break things on the Mac?

01:13:06   If the Mac is your legacy platform

01:13:08   and people use things on the Mac

01:13:09   because they have worked that way on the Mac for 20 years,

01:13:12   why break it?

01:13:13   Just leave it there.

01:13:15   Maybe add the new thing.

01:13:16   Maybe don't even add the new thing

01:13:17   and just say that's one of the great things

01:13:19   that's on iOS now and then walk away.

01:13:22   And so I guess we'll see what they're feeling about that.

01:13:25   But I feel like you can do everything you can do

01:13:30   in workflow on the Mac now, so you don't need it there.

01:13:32   It's just a matter of Apple wanted to come in and say,

01:13:34   know from now, you know, now this is the thing everywhere. And I don't know. I would say

01:13:41   if Apple's going to take iOS or Mac OS to a lockdown place in the future, it feels much

01:13:45   more like iOS, where you can't run arbitrary scripts and get to the terminal and things

01:13:52   like that. If they go there, then they have to have something like workflow.

01:13:58   Workflow on iOS is now free and seems to be at least for a while sticking about. So if

01:14:03   haven't tried it you should. As we said earlier in the show in the show notes

01:14:07   Jason put together some of his favorites, some of his favorite workflows. A couple of

01:14:11   weeks ago on Connected me and Federico and Steven shared some of our favorite

01:14:15   workflows. Ironically enough on that episode we spoke about what would happen

01:14:21   if workflow ever went away and I think we came to the conclusion that we didn't

01:14:26   think it would happen and I believe we may have mentioned the possibility of

01:14:29   Apple acquiring them at some point but kind of all roared buzz if it hasn't

01:14:33   happen by now, surely it's not going to happen. And if you want to hear me and Federico especially

01:14:41   I guess commiserate and opt to like and kind of hope, we're going to be talking about this

01:14:46   more on Connected this week as well if you want to kind of hear more on the subject because

01:14:51   it is so important to Federico especially, right? So I'm interested to see how he feels

01:14:56   on this. I feel like I've been going through like the seven stages of the creative process

01:15:03   - Yeah, yeah.

01:15:03   - Yeah, and honestly, I don't even know

01:15:06   how I feel about this right now.

01:15:08   I really don't.

01:15:09   Like, I will say I don't feel very hopeful.

01:15:12   I just don't.

01:15:14   Yeah, that's kind of how I feel about this right now.

01:15:17   Like, I'm kind of using Workflow still every day,

01:15:21   and I'm like thinking about like what,

01:15:23   do I have anything that can do the stuff

01:15:25   that I'm doing here?

01:15:26   Like, what do I have, you know?

01:15:28   And I'm just thinking about it.

01:15:29   I'm preparing because no matter what it's gonna be,

01:15:32   it's not gonna be what it is now.

01:15:36   That could be good or bad,

01:15:39   but it's not gonna be what it is now in two years time.

01:15:42   - That I agree with.

01:15:43   I think it's unlikely.

01:15:44   Although, you know, test flight is not very different

01:15:47   than it was when Apple bought it.

01:15:49   - Yeah, and it's better.

01:15:50   I mean, I'm not saying it's necessarily gonna be worse,

01:15:52   but it's gonna be different.

01:15:54   And I think some of the things that I do right now,

01:15:57   I won't be able to do anymore.

01:15:59   Like I wonder will Apple embrace web APIs, like workflow?

01:16:03   If they take workflow away and say like,

01:16:05   here is our version to go forward?

01:16:07   I don't know.

01:16:08   I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.

01:16:11   But so if you wanna, you know,

01:16:13   I know Federico spent a lot more time

01:16:15   thinking about this than I have,

01:16:16   so I'm sure you have some stuff to say as well.

01:16:19   - Yeah, we'll see.

01:16:21   I choose to be optimistic, but you are right.

01:16:25   Things will be different, almost certainly.

01:16:28   but the trade-off of having an automation utility

01:16:33   that is already right on the edge

01:16:41   of what an app should be able to do,

01:16:44   have access as a blessed Apple app

01:16:50   to potentially do things that no App Store app

01:16:55   would ever be allowed to do.

01:16:58   The upside for that is huge.

01:17:02   And so, you know, would I make the gamble

01:17:07   if I had to choose of like, all right, well,

01:17:10   you can put out, put workflow inside of Apple

01:17:12   and see what happens.

01:17:13   And there's a chance that you're gonna have access

01:17:15   to all this amazing stuff,

01:17:16   but they might also ruin it totally or make it go away.

01:17:20   I don't know if I would take that bet.

01:17:23   You know, I might just choose to say, let's let it ride.

01:17:25   Let's leave it where it is.

01:17:26   It's all good, right?

01:17:27   But the potential for iOS, thinking not just about workflow,

01:17:32   but thinking about doing work on iOS,

01:17:34   the potential there for workflow

01:17:37   or something that is based on workflow

01:17:40   to harness core operating system functionality

01:17:44   that nobody has access to is huge.

01:17:49   It's huge.

01:17:50   Like it could potentially be a game changing feature for iOS

01:17:55   And yeah, it may not be the same, and for certain tasks it may cease to be functional.

01:18:05   But if they do it right, I might be willing to make that trade because of the power that

01:18:12   you can get once you're inside Apple and you're vetted by the people at Apple and you're granted

01:18:18   access to things that nobody outside of Apple can grant access to.

01:18:22   by putting it in Workflow, you're granting access to the users, to those features, and

01:18:27   that makes iOS better. So that's why I choose to be optimistic, is that if done right, this

01:18:32   will make iOS better.

01:18:33   I would love that. I would love that. But like, I just can't get it out on my head that

01:18:37   there's also a bad part. And if that bad part does happen, it seriously affects the way

01:18:41   that I get my work done.

01:18:43   I feel like what I'm telling you, Myke, is Workflow is dead, but it's going to a better

01:18:47   place.

01:18:49   Is it going to the App Farm?

01:18:51   I think it's going to the App Farm upstate. No, I think a better way to do it would be to say,

01:18:56   like, actually, I'm going to take it back to the Segoian family. So, like, Chris Segoian,

01:19:01   Sal's nephew, was at the ACLU. He was their security and technology lead. And he left there

01:19:08   to work in Washington, D.C. at a—it's hard to even explain what it is—but it's like a policy

01:19:14   seminar kind of place. And the idea there is, he is going behind the scenes. He's not going to be

01:19:20   be able to tweet anymore. He's gone behind the scenes. But he is, I'm going to assume,

01:19:27   he's doing good. He is teaching people in Washington about security issues so that we

01:19:33   don't look at politicians and their staffs in Washington, D.C. in a few years and say,

01:19:39   they literally have no idea what they're talking about, which is kind of how they are right

01:19:43   now. And that's the tradeoff. It's like, we lost access to this great voice who has lots

01:19:47   of smart, interesting things to say to the public, but the world may be better off because

01:19:52   of what he's doing now. So, you know, it's a little bit like that, which is workflow

01:19:58   is maybe going to go away or at least change, but it may make iOS a much better place in

01:20:04   the end. And I'm not saying in just that they're going to take the engineers from workflow

01:20:09   and have them work on a new springboard or something like that. That's not what I mean.

01:20:13   That would be a complete failure and a crushing disappointment if that happened. But if workflow,

01:20:17   the spirit of workflow affects iOS to make it far more powerful than it is now, then

01:20:23   that would be awesome. So hold on to that Myke, as you're in your acceptance phase.

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01:22:08   So we start the show with #SinnellTalk.

01:22:10   We end the show with #AskUpgrade.

01:22:13   Lucas wants to know,

01:22:15   do you think there will be a new iPad mini?

01:22:17   - Yes.

01:22:21   - You do?

01:22:21   - I do.

01:22:22   I think there will be.

01:22:23   I think it will be the iPad mini without a number,

01:22:26   like we said earlier, fifth generation.

01:22:29   And it will be, you know,

01:22:32   it will be down there in the iPad line.

01:22:36   You know, it's like there'll be the iPad and the iPad mini

01:22:38   and there'll be buddies.

01:22:40   I think that's probably the case.

01:22:41   I think there's still people out there who want small.

01:22:43   iPad minis are great for kids.

01:22:45   Like they're great for kids.

01:22:46   My son still uses an iPad mini and he's 12 now,

01:22:49   but like he has grown up with the iPad mini size

01:22:52   and you know, he has small hands and it works great for him.

01:22:56   So I do think there's a place for the iPad mini.

01:22:59   I'm skeptical about whether there's like a pro iPad mini

01:23:02   that needs to exist,

01:23:03   But now that we've got the iPad back,

01:23:07   I feel like there will still be an iPad mini as well

01:23:10   to run on side it,

01:23:11   but that the next version might be, you know,

01:23:14   might be in the same style of like cheaper

01:23:17   and maybe not as cutting edge.

01:23:21   The iPad mini has kind of already been there,

01:23:23   but also it's very weird, can I say,

01:23:25   that with the new changes,

01:23:27   they're only selling 128 version of the iPad mini 4.

01:23:32   It's weird. That's weird.

01:23:34   - That fact makes me think there might not be

01:23:37   any more after this one.

01:23:39   - They're just trying to get them out the door

01:23:41   and then close it off.

01:23:43   I feel like there's a use case for it.

01:23:44   - Why would you do that?

01:23:45   It seems so strange, like from pricing and stuff.

01:23:48   Like it's just really weird.

01:23:49   - Yeah, I don't know. It is weird.

01:23:51   Yeah, it costs more to get an iPad mini than an iPad.

01:23:54   Although you could argue like it's a specialty thing

01:23:56   and it's like you're paying for the smallness of it.

01:23:59   - You're getting a big story.

01:24:00   there's a reason, but it's like, it's just seems, yeah.

01:24:03   - I would have expected them to have it be like

01:24:06   an iPad mini for 32 only.

01:24:08   - Yeah.

01:24:09   - Instead they went 128 only.

01:24:09   But I do, if I had to bet,

01:24:11   I would bet there will be a new iPad mini at some point

01:24:14   that will be maybe drop the number entirely

01:24:16   and we'll just be a buddy to the iPad fifth generation.

01:24:20   - Tim wants to know if we use a VPN

01:24:23   to protect browsing privacy.

01:24:25   Jason, do you?

01:24:26   - I don't, I'm open to the idea

01:24:29   because there's a lot of talk,

01:24:30   especially in the US, that there might be legislation

01:24:34   to change what your internet provider is monitoring

01:24:39   from your browsing information and selling that.

01:24:43   So I've thought about it, although of course,

01:24:47   the VPN provider can look at your traffic too.

01:24:51   So I don't know, I have a VPN.

01:25:00   So I have TunnelBear and one of the features

01:25:02   that TunnelBear has is it's got a Chrome extension.

01:25:05   I don't think it has a Safari extension.

01:25:07   The great thing about the Chrome extension

01:25:08   is I can VPN my web traffic only.

01:25:12   I can just turn on the Chrome extension

01:25:15   and just use TunnelBear to tunnel my web traffic.

01:25:18   - So it would be fine for this Skype call.

01:25:21   - Exactly right.

01:25:23   So there wouldn't be any encryption overhead for Skype.

01:25:26   - That's really cool.

01:25:27   - My Chrome thing has it.

01:25:29   yeah, I don't think they can do that in Safari,

01:25:31   but they can do that in Chrome.

01:25:32   And so I use that not all the time,

01:25:34   'cause I don't use Chrome all the time,

01:25:35   but I use that sometimes and have it set up

01:25:37   to just go to fastest,

01:25:38   which is, you know, it'll find a Western US VPN

01:25:41   and connect and I do have that.

01:25:43   But, you know, I'm open to this idea.

01:25:49   I feel like we're gonna get to the point

01:25:53   when we might all need more of stuff like this.

01:25:57   But right now, the issues are it does,

01:26:01   it can really slow things down

01:26:02   and I have podcasts and things to do.

01:26:04   And so that makes me, if I could set up my router

01:26:07   to just encrypt everything before it even gets

01:26:09   to the cable modem to like encrypt it out somewhere else,

01:26:13   and then everything on my house would be encrypted,

01:26:15   I would consider it, but you know,

01:26:18   I don't really wanna do that with my Netflix streams

01:26:20   and my podcasts and things like that.

01:26:22   So I feel like the technology is gonna need

01:26:24   to be more sophisticated or at least come down

01:26:26   into products that make it easier for consumers

01:26:29   to tie into a VPN and encrypt their traffic

01:26:34   that's going out past their ISP.

01:26:36   But then if enough people do that,

01:26:37   the scrutiny will just move to the VPN providers

01:26:41   'cause they become the, you know,

01:26:43   that's where the tunnel ends and they become the people

01:26:46   who have to safeguard your privacy.

01:26:48   - I use Cloak on my laptops.

01:26:52   So like on my MacBook, I have cloak.

01:26:57   And I use that for kind of when I travel

01:26:59   or when I'm on like unsafe wifi,

01:27:02   you know, like wifi that I don't trust.

01:27:05   I also have the app installed on my iOS devices

01:27:07   in case I ever wanna do the same for that.

01:27:09   - Yeah, I have that with TunnelBear.

01:27:10   I have those both set up.

01:27:12   And yes, when I'm out in the world

01:27:13   at some random wifi hotspot,

01:27:15   that is what I generally do is I trust having just

01:27:20   having just, you know, don't trust the free Wi-Fi.

01:27:24   - I've got to say though, I'm super intrigued

01:27:26   about that TunnelBear thing.

01:27:27   I mean, I used TunnelBear a long time ago

01:27:29   before I found Cloak, and then I found Cloak

01:27:31   to be a nicer app, nicer experience.

01:27:33   But that browser extension, that is really intriguing.

01:27:37   If I was ever gonna run something like that at home,

01:27:41   I don't want everything going through it.

01:27:44   I want my browsing history to be hidden

01:27:46   if I'm doing it at home.

01:27:47   like I'm not worried about like the network itself,

01:27:50   but I wouldn't want my streaming services

01:27:54   or my Skype or anything to be going through it

01:27:57   because everything would be slower.

01:27:59   So that's really, really interesting.

01:28:01   It's really interesting.

01:28:02   I might look into that a little bit more.

01:28:04   Mitchell asked, well they said

01:28:08   they're ditching their 15-inch MacBook Pro

01:28:10   because they don't need a real computer anymore.

01:28:12   They wanna know, the age old question,

01:28:13   should I get a 9.7 inch or 12.9 inch iPad Pro

01:28:16   and should I wait for the upgrades?

01:28:18   I'm gonna answer this in two parts.

01:28:20   If you are coming from a 15 inch MacBook Pro,

01:28:22   you should get the 12.9 inch iPad Pro.

01:28:25   Because clearly portability wasn't a thing

01:28:28   that you super cared about in the past, right?

01:28:30   Because there were like multiple screen sizes

01:28:32   smaller than that.

01:28:34   And also I think going from 15 inch to 9.7,

01:28:36   you would feel that.

01:28:37   I think you should go to the 12.9.

01:28:39   Plus as well, if it's gonna be your home machine,

01:28:42   the 12.9 is a nicer machine for the home.

01:28:44   because it's bigger, it's heavier,

01:28:46   but you don't need to carry it around all the time.

01:28:49   Should you wait for the upgrade?

01:28:51   I think probably yeah.

01:28:52   I mean, if you're willing to wait a year,

01:28:54   because we don't know how long it's gonna be,

01:28:56   but I would expect within the next 12 months,

01:28:59   there will be new ones,

01:28:59   'cause who even knows anymore?

01:29:01   Nobody knows, no one could tell.

01:29:02   I would say that there will be something within the next year

01:29:05   I would say wait, otherwise, 12.9,

01:29:07   I use it every single day.

01:29:08   It's an old machine now based on kind of

01:29:10   iOS device refreshes, but it's still fantastic.

01:29:15   Mine works great and it works great every single day.

01:29:17   You could probably get a decent price on a refurb one now.

01:29:21   That might be a good route to go down.

01:29:24   - Yeah, but we do have hopes

01:29:25   that there would be a new one soon, so.

01:29:28   - I say within the next three to six months.

01:29:31   - So if you can hold out,

01:29:32   if you can hold out, I would hold out for the new one

01:29:35   because the old one is more than a year old now.

01:29:38   - Yep.

01:29:40   Chris asked, "What is Apple doing on the 18th of April?"

01:29:44   Now this sounds like a very peculiar question, unless you know that at WWDC last year there

01:29:49   was this big wall of text, and it had all these little phrases and funny things and

01:29:55   jokes and inside jokes and that kind of stuff.

01:29:57   But one of the kind of small sentences said, "Hello Tuesday, April 18th, 2017."

01:30:04   It was the only reference to any date on this huge wall of code is what Apple called it,

01:30:10   but it was there. Tuesday, April 18th, 2017. I'll put a link in the show notes. Federico

01:30:15   tweeted it. He took a picture of it. Federico has kind of many feelings. I think his one

01:30:21   has been that that is when Campus 2 will officially be declared open. And I think he said that

01:30:26   for a while as well. Like that was one of the big things. Many people think that there

01:30:30   might be an event on that day that Apple was been thinking about or some big product introduction

01:30:36   that they knew about was definitely going to be on that date basically 10 months before.

01:30:41   What do you think? I mean that whatever it is Apple is surely sure about something happening

01:30:47   on that day. I mean why it would be such a like why would you say that day? Why would you not say

01:30:53   the day that it was that WWDC opened or whatever? Tuesday April 18th 2017. What do you think's

01:30:59   happening, Jason? I think it's somebody's birthday or somebody's anniversary and they picked a date

01:31:10   in the future for that phrase. I think it's that simple. I don't think there's anything going on.

01:31:18   You don't think Apple's doing anything? They just picked it?

01:31:21   Yeah, that far in advance. Apple doesn't schedule stuff that far in advance. No way.

01:31:27   So you think that we'll come to April 19th and nothing would have happened on the 18th?

01:31:32   Well, I'll put it this way.

01:31:33   If something happens on April 18th, it is not going to happen because Apple knew that

01:31:37   they had text on the wall at WWDC 2016 that mentioned that date, and boy, they have to

01:31:42   do something that date, or it'll disappoint all of the conspiracy theorists on the internet.

01:31:46   No, but what if it was something that...

01:31:49   It's not impossible that something could have been set a year in advance to happen on that

01:31:54   day.

01:31:55   It's not necessarily a product launch, but it could be anything.

01:31:57   I don't... it could be anything, but what would it be? What would it be that Apple

01:32:03   cared enough about to put in secret text in the "Hello" banner at WWDC that they

01:32:09   knew about months in advance? Ten months in advance?

01:32:14   It could have been the day that they declared Open Compass 2. It's a construction

01:32:19   project. I mean, they could have a pretty... But why would you do that ten months...

01:32:22   No, yeah, construction projects slip. Everything slip.

01:32:26   Okay, well, all right, fine, fine.

01:32:28   I think that it is not impossible

01:32:31   for a company to assume something,

01:32:33   a date of some description, 10 months in advance.

01:32:37   I don't think that is an impossible thing to do.

01:32:39   But we'll find out. - I do.

01:32:42   - Brent asked, "Unlike last week's Brent,

01:32:47   "I have too many podcasts that I listen to."

01:32:49   (laughing)

01:32:51   The Brents are fighting now.

01:32:53   How do you decide which podcasts to drop from your queue?

01:32:57   Now I take this not so much as a podcast to unsubscribe to,

01:33:01   but just like episodes I see

01:33:03   and I don't want to listen to them.

01:33:05   I don't have as much time to listen to podcasts as I used to.

01:33:09   This is something that has started to happen to me

01:33:12   gradually over time.

01:33:13   When I quit my job, I was still listening to lots of stuff,

01:33:16   but I don't know what it is,

01:33:18   but in the last maybe six months or so,

01:33:21   I seem to have less and less time to listen to podcasts and I don't know why or at least

01:33:25   less and less consistent time to listen.

01:33:28   So these days I tend to, I have a small handful of shows that I listen to every single episode

01:33:35   of and then outside of that I just look at the descriptions and choose if I want to add

01:33:39   it to my queue in Overcast queuing feature that I use and really like a lot.

01:33:45   I do pretty much the same thing which is I will take shows, I have a priority playlist

01:33:50   that some shows, and then I have a list of all the episodes,

01:33:53   and I will go in and add things to the queue,

01:33:55   and if somebody says, "This is a great episode,"

01:33:57   I'll add those to the queue, and then eventually,

01:33:59   if there's a podcast that I like episodes of,

01:34:02   but I find that I'm never getting to it

01:34:04   unless there's an extraordinary circumstance,

01:34:06   I will turn that to, you know,

01:34:08   basically don't add new episodes,

01:34:10   but I'll keep it in my overcast list,

01:34:12   and I will occasionally pop in there,

01:34:14   or somebody will say, "Oh, did you hear this episode?"

01:34:16   And then I'll add it in that way manually.

01:34:19   So there's like a set of levels that go down

01:34:23   of like priority one, two, three, four,

01:34:26   in terms of like how I approach them.

01:34:28   But I have way too many shows too.

01:34:29   And I decide, bottom line is how do I decide?

01:34:31   I decide what are the ones that get me excited

01:34:33   when there's a new episode and they go to the top of my queue

01:34:36   and then I put those in as like,

01:34:38   yes, those always go in this queue

01:34:40   and they always go to the top if they're that.

01:34:43   And then everything else is just fighting for

01:34:45   when I look at my queue and nothing is moving me

01:34:48   or there's nothing in it, then what do I go to next?

01:34:51   If you want to find out more about our show notes for this week's episode head on over

01:34:55   to relay.fm/upgrades/134.

01:35:00   Thanks again to our sponsors this week, the fine folk over at TextExpander from Smile,

01:35:04   Encapsular and Squarespace.

01:35:06   If you want to have your question answered on the show you can always tweet with the

01:35:10   hashtag #askupgrade and we'll grab it and if you want to suggest a question for me to

01:35:14   ask Jason in our new Snell Talks segment at the beginning of the show, it can be fun little

01:35:18   questions, esoteric things, just stuff that you want to know about Jason Snell's day or

01:35:22   week or weekend, use the hashtag SnellTalk and I'll pick those up as well. And we appreciate

01:35:28   your participation on the show as always. Any follow up and stuff that you send, we

01:35:32   always love it and thank you for continuing to do that each and every week. If you want

01:35:36   to find Jason online, he's over at sixcolors.com and @jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L-L. And next week

01:35:42   he'll be in my office. I am @imike and we'll be both back next week in person for the beginning

01:35:51   of our European tour, which we seem to be doing on an almost yearly basis. Until next

01:35:59   time, say goodbye Jason Snow.

01:36:01   Goodbye from sunny and blue sky California.

01:36:04   You had to get the weather in, didn't you?

01:36:06   I did.

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