Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 133.

00:00:13 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you very kindly by Freshbooks, Eero, and Encapsula.

00:00:17 ◼   ► My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:21 ◼   ► Hey, Jason Snell.

00:00:22 ◼   ► Hey, Myke Hurley, how are you?

00:00:23 ◼   ► Good, I went all ascent on the end of that introduction there.

00:00:26 ◼   ► I decided to just keep it going, keep that...

00:00:28 ◼   ► I appreciate your commu... I appreciate your communication skills Myke Harley!

00:00:34 ◼   ► Anytime Jason Snow! So how is it going over there in California today Mr. Snow?

00:00:38 ◼   ► You know, a little foggy. It's like a just a just a spring like early spring day basically.

00:00:44 ◼   ► And uh going fine, going good. Kids are at school,

00:00:47 ◼   ► upgrade is on, everything's right with the world.

00:00:50 ◼   ► I had lunch with a friend of mine uh a couple of days ago and they're an upgrade listener

00:00:54 ◼   ► and they were mentioning how the beginning of the episode always makes them laugh.

00:00:58 ◼   ► Just as it tends to be something along the lines of either me or you talking about the weather

00:01:03 ◼   ► or making a comment about how upgrade is the start of the week.

00:01:06 ◼   ► - Yep, every time. - It's Monday.

00:01:09 ◼   ► - It's like we've become our, yeah, it's become our thing, I guess.

00:01:13 ◼   ► 'Cause you ask me, like, how is it going over there?

00:01:16 ◼   ► And I'm like, uh, I have a window I can look out and see, and the answer is light gray today.

00:01:23 ◼   ► And so I'll tell you what, here is a here is a thought here.

00:01:27 ◼   ► We have an army of up gradients out there in the world.

00:01:31 ◼   ► We do are full of creative ideas.

00:01:34 ◼   ► So maybe we should petition the up gradients to tweet at me and you for suggestions

00:01:39 ◼   ► on how we can mix up our little preamble before the follow up,

00:01:43 ◼   ► like our a little opening section here, our introduction to the show.

00:01:47 ◼   ► Maybe we can get some suggestions on people, some little quick little ice

00:01:50 ◼   ► breakers or something that me and you can do to begin the episode every week.

00:01:53 ◼   ► Great idea. So you can tweet at me or Jason.

00:01:56 ◼   ► The welcome message of the week.

00:01:59 ◼   ► Yeah. So instead of saying "How's it going over there?" you can say...

00:02:03 ◼   ► I give you a little question or something, you know, and then you answer that question.

00:02:07 ◼   ► That's a good one. Send me questions at iMyke, i-m-y-k-e,

00:02:12 ◼   ► that I can ask Jason every Monday morning, and that can be a way for us to start off the show in the future.

00:02:18 ◼   ► Beautiful. So let's get into follow-up. In Ask Upgrade last week,

00:02:22 ◼   ► Last week we filled out a question from Robbie who asked about how to clean his nylon Apple

00:02:27 ◼   ► watch band and I suggested soap and a sponge of course Robbie but apparently Robbie wrote

00:02:33 ◼   ► in as requested to let us know how his cleaning process went.

00:02:37 ◼   ► Apparently Apple support documentation because of course I should have thought of this there

00:02:40 ◼   ► is a kbase article on how to clean watch straps.

00:02:45 ◼   ► Their documents recommend using a lightly dampened lint free cloth as I'm sure only

00:02:51 ◼   ► Robby exists in the white world of Johnny Ive in his white room.

00:02:55 ◼   ► And didn't Robby say that he knew for a fact that a damp lint-free cloth would not

00:03:00 ◼   ► solve his horrendously dirtied band?

00:03:03 ◼   ► I think so.

00:03:04 ◼   ► But he sent me the link because it says, categorically, not to use soap in that document.

00:03:09 ◼   ► However, Robby wrote in this morning to let me know that he put his band in the washing

00:03:15 ◼   ► machine and it came out fine.

00:03:18 ◼   ► So do whatever you want, I guess.

00:03:21 ◼   ► - I'm not entirely sure that that knowledge-based document

00:03:25 ◼   ► has been updated to detail the nylon band, right?

00:03:30 ◼   ► 'Cause they've got a leather section

00:03:35 ◼   ► and then they say everything else do this,

00:03:36 ◼   ► but like the nylon band is such a different material.

00:03:39 ◼   ► - To the sport band.

00:03:40 ◼   ► - And yeah, it totally worked for Robbie.

00:03:41 ◼   ► I don't think I would put it in the washing machine

00:03:44 ◼   ► because I feel like it might get kind of more worn

00:03:47 ◼   ► and distorted in the washing machine.

00:03:49 ◼   ► But I would think like you would take a wool sweater

00:03:52 ◼   ► or something like that where you take it to the sink

00:03:56 ◼   ► and use soap and scrub it a little bit and let it dry.

00:04:00 ◼   ► And I think that would probably be, that's my gut feeling

00:04:02 ◼   ► is that would probably be the gentlest way to do it.

00:04:05 ◼   ► So, yeah.

00:04:07 ◼   ► - Like if you were to take a sport band,

00:04:11 ◼   ► obviously the way to clean it is just to wipe it, right?

00:04:14 ◼   ► Because it's rubber, you can just wipe anything off

00:04:17 ◼   ► with a lightly dampened cloth.

00:04:18 ◼   ► But that's not how the nylon ones work.

00:04:20 ◼   ► I agree, I don't think it's been updated.

00:04:22 ◼   ► So come on Apple, update the K-base.

00:04:24 ◼   ► Twitterific funded and it hit the $100,000 stretch goal.

00:04:31 ◼   ► This was something that me and you have been talking about

00:04:33 ◼   ► a bunch over the last couple of weeks.

00:04:34 ◼   ► I was unsure as to whether the campaign would fund.

00:04:37 ◼   ► It did fund.

00:04:38 ◼   ► I was one of the people that did what you said would happen

00:04:42 ◼   ► and which is how these things usually tend to go.

00:04:44 ◼   ► When it looked like it was gonna hit the 100,

00:04:46 ◼   ► I think it was something like 99,000 or something.

00:04:48 ◼   ► I backed because I am interested in this application

00:04:51 ◼   ► as long as it has the features that I wanted,

00:04:53 ◼   ► which were all behind the $100,000 stretch goal mostly.

00:04:57 ◼   ► And it did fund, I am pleased that it funded.

00:05:00 ◼   ► Of course, why would I not be pleased?

00:05:01 ◼   ► You put a hmm in the document here.

00:05:02 ◼   ► Jason was right, of course.

00:05:04 ◼   ► - I think it's Jason was right.

00:05:05 ◼   ► So like, I'm not sure you're pleased that I was right,

00:05:08 ◼   ► but I was, like I said two weeks ago

00:05:11 ◼   ► that weird things happen

00:05:12 ◼   ► when Kickstarters approach their end.

00:05:14 ◼   ► And I was pretty sure that they would fund.

00:05:17 ◼   ► - You were very confident.

00:05:18 ◼   ► - And they might hit,

00:05:19 ◼   ► I thought that it was pretty likely

00:05:21 ◼   ► they'd hit the stretch goal and that it totally,

00:05:23 ◼   ► it was dramatic.

00:05:24 ◼   ► Also something that I didn't remember,

00:05:26 ◼   ► I had already noticed, but I didn't mention,

00:05:28 ◼   ► because I wasn't thinking of it

00:05:29 ◼   ► while we recorded two weeks ago,

00:05:31 ◼   ► which was I noted that Jon Gruber

00:05:33 ◼   ► had not posted about it during "Fireball" yet.

00:05:35 ◼   ► And here's a thing that I've noticed,

00:05:37 ◼   ► and I haven't talked to Jon about this,

00:05:38 ◼   ► but the impression I get is Jon Gruber really likes,

00:05:42 ◼   ► and he says it in his write-ups,

00:05:43 ◼   ► He really likes having Daring Fireball readers

00:05:45 ◼   ► put Kickstarters over the top.

00:05:47 ◼   ► So all of those, like the two, three weeks

00:05:50 ◼   ► that Twitter-ific Kickstarter was going on,

00:05:52 ◼   ► he didn't say a word about it.

00:05:53 ◼   ► It's like, he totally knew about it.

00:05:55 ◼   ► It's a thing that he cares about.

00:05:56 ◼   ► And I'm sitting there going,

00:05:57 ◼   ► "So Gruber didn't write about this."

00:05:59 ◼   ► It's like, that's the answer, right?

00:06:00 ◼   ► Is John wants to be the one who comes in and goes,

00:06:02 ◼   ► "Boom, it's funded."

00:06:03 ◼   ► And that's totally what happened.

00:06:04 ◼   ► - Like the shining armor.

00:06:05 ◼   ► - Uh-huh, and that's totally what happened.

00:06:06 ◼   ► I mean, he posted it right before they hit their goal

00:06:09 ◼   ► and pushed them over.

00:06:10 ◼   ► So that's, and quite honestly, that's not a bad strategy, right?

00:06:14 ◼   ► To keep your audience in reserve for that moment when they need an extra boost when

00:06:20 ◼   ► it's three weeks in.

00:06:22 ◼   ► Don't discount the upgrade-ions, you know?

00:06:24 ◼   ► Oh, I know.

00:06:25 ◼   ► I think we helped get it close.

00:06:27 ◼   ► I think so.

00:06:28 ◼   ► I think that the upgrade-ions out there probably did help.

00:06:32 ◼   ► Yeah, I say like in general, of course, with the hashtag #wasright, the people, we like

00:06:39 ◼   ► to be right. Like I like to be right, you like to be right. But this isn't something

00:06:41 ◼   ► that I would have been happy to be right about, like if it didn't hit the stretch goal.

00:06:46 ◼   ► You've just been skeptical about which...

00:06:48 ◼   ► I have, I have. But now I'm pleased, I've bought in, I've got the level that has stickers,

00:06:53 ◼   ► of course, because I want stickers. And I'm curious to see how this project continues,

00:07:00 ◼   ► maybe over the next year or so. I think they're looking to ship the first beta this year,

00:07:05 ◼   ► So be curious to see how that goes along.

00:07:07 ◼   ► And I'm also interested to see if and how they use the kickstarter update functionality,

00:07:13 ◼   ► if they're going to let people in on the progression of the application.

00:07:18 ◼   ► We spoke a lot last week about windowing on iOS.

00:07:24 ◼   ► And Gary wrote in to remind us of an app called Moom.

00:07:27 ◼   ► And I had this in my head, but I don't know why I didn't bring it up.

00:07:30 ◼   ► Moom is an application for the Mac, which allows you to take Windows and kind of snap

00:07:37 ◼   ► them into corners and give them assigned sizes.

00:07:40 ◼   ► And this is very similar to the type of thing that I'm looking and hoping for on iOS in

00:07:46 ◼   ► the future when it comes to some kind of application management.

00:07:50 ◼   ► I'm trying to steer away from calling it window management, because if I call it window management,

00:07:56 ◼   ► I'm saying that there's Windows, so I'm calling it application management.

00:07:59 ◼   ► - Yes, the application view tiles or whatever you wanna call.

00:08:03 ◼   ► Yes, I know the reason that I didn't think of it

00:08:05 ◼   ► is we weren't talking about the Mac.

00:08:07 ◼   ► I mean, that's, it's, yes, there are lots,

00:08:09 ◼   ► there are probably a dozen different kind of window managers

00:08:13 ◼   ► for the Mac out there.

00:08:13 ◼   ► I did a search this morning, I was looking,

00:08:15 ◼   ► somebody else recommended a different one

00:08:17 ◼   ► that I'd never heard of,

00:08:18 ◼   ► and now I can't find that recommendation anywhere.

00:08:19 ◼   ► - Is it called Thieve?

00:08:21 ◼   ► - I don't think so, but there's a lot of them out there.

00:08:23 ◼   ► And Moom is great, it's for many tricks,

00:08:25 ◼   ► it's short for move and zoom.

00:08:27 ◼   ► And that's what it does,

00:08:28 ◼   ► is it lets you set the, yeah, I mean,

00:08:31 ◼   ► it's very clever for the Mac.

00:08:32 ◼   ► So that's the idea is for Apple to come up with something

00:08:35 ◼   ► that's fairly intuitive that lets you kind of manage

00:08:37 ◼   ► where your apps go on a screen,

00:08:40 ◼   ► especially if it's a larger iOS device.

00:08:42 ◼   ► And there are a lot of examples,

00:08:43 ◼   ► and Moom is a good one of ways to do this.

00:08:46 ◼   ► Windows obviously has its snapping stuff too,

00:08:49 ◼   ► that are application placement tools that make that easier

00:08:54 ◼   ► without it being a super complicated multi-layered window

00:08:58 ◼   ► that we think of for like Mac stuff today where I've got, like I have right now actually,

00:09:03 ◼   ► where I've got different windows and you know the one in the front is covering up three

00:09:07 ◼   ► other windows partially but that are behind them.

00:09:11 ◼   ► Steven Newton is the pure definition of a model upgrade.

00:09:17 ◼   ► Yes.

00:09:18 ◼   ► He sent in a picture of a record player attached to an iPod Hi-Fi.

00:09:22 ◼   ► See we can all get along.

00:09:24 ◼   ► Yep, perfect.

00:09:25 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:09:26 ◼   ► - They have a very special setup to Steven.

00:09:29 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:09:30 ◼   ► - So thank you Steven for sending that in.

00:09:31 ◼   ► This is, we were talking about,

00:09:34 ◼   ► how did this even come up last week?

00:09:36 ◼   ► Can you remember?

00:09:37 ◼   ► - Oh.

00:09:38 ◼   ► - We were talking about old hardware or something in--

00:09:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, I think that was it.

00:09:42 ◼   ► I think it was old tech and you talked about

00:09:44 ◼   ► how you had a record player and I mentioned

00:09:45 ◼   ► that I still use an iPod Hi-Fi just as my external speaker.

00:09:48 ◼   ► And then somebody called me a hipster and it's like,

00:09:50 ◼   ► no, I don't think that's how,

00:09:51 ◼   ► I think using old tech that you have around

00:09:53 ◼   ► because it still works, is as unhip as it gets.

00:09:57 ◼   ► If I bought an iPod HiFi at the thrift store

00:10:00 ◼   ► and then placed it prominently with an iPod in the dock

00:10:03 ◼   ► playing music, hipster music, that would be hipster-y.

00:10:07 ◼   ► - There is a, I'm not, okay,

00:10:08 ◼   ► I will not call you a hipster here, Jason.

00:10:11 ◼   ► But I will say that there is an element of hipster-ness

00:10:14 ◼   ► which would be to continue using something

00:10:16 ◼   ► after everybody's stopped as kind of like a,

00:10:19 ◼   ► look how special I am kind of thing.

00:10:20 ◼   ► - See, I don't agree.

00:10:21 ◼   ► I think hipsters get the stuff after people

00:10:25 ◼   ► have stopped using it in order to be new and different.

00:10:28 ◼   ► - That is definitely a bigger trend.

00:10:30 ◼   ► - What you're thinking of cheap people,

00:10:32 ◼   ► cheap people keep using old things because they still work

00:10:36 ◼   ► even though they're old and uncool and they risk mockery

00:10:39 ◼   ► by mentioning that they still use them.

00:10:41 ◼   ► That's those people are called cheap people

00:10:43 ◼   ► 'cause I could totally buy a modern speaker

00:10:47 ◼   ► and hook it up to my iMac.

00:10:49 ◼   ► but why I have this dumb iPod HiFi that works fine with the ox port so I'm just cheap.

00:10:56 ◼   ► Apple's stock is currently at an all-time high so or at least hit it. I actually haven't looked

00:11:05 ◼   ► at what it is today. I'll take a look at that in a moment but on Friday...

00:11:08 ◼   ► It's great news for us Myke as huge Apple investors that we are not.

00:11:12 ◼   ► not.

00:11:19 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:11:21 ◼   ► The article written on Friday was that

00:11:24 ◼   ► there was an all-time high of $141.69.

00:11:29 ◼   ► Sorry, $140.69 was when it closed at trading

00:11:36 ◼   ► on Thursday, March 16th.

00:11:39 ◼   ► That was an all-time high which beat

00:11:41 ◼   ► the previous all-time high, which was set two days earlier.

00:11:45 ◼   ► right now Apple stock is at $141.15 a share.

00:11:49 ◼   ► I mean, we'll see where it goes by the end of trading today,

00:11:52 ◼   ► but it's, you know, it's higher than that even.

00:11:55 ◼   ► So this is interesting as to why it's doing this right now,

00:12:00 ◼   ► because I mean, me and you have been talking about

00:12:04 ◼   ► how there isn't really anything happening right now.

00:12:06 ◼   ► There's no products being announced, there's no news.

00:12:09 ◼   ► We're in a quiet period.

00:12:10 ◼   ► What's going on?

00:12:12 ◼   ► Are they, I mean, I assume,

00:12:14 ◼   ► My assumption is they are riding the last quarterly results,

00:12:17 ◼   ► which were very good.

00:12:19 ◼   ► And there's also a wave of anticipation for products.

00:12:22 ◼   ► - I guess, I mean, this is,

00:12:26 ◼   ► the problem is that the stock market is not always logical

00:12:29 ◼   ► and it is based on future prediction, right?

00:12:33 ◼   ► The past results are not, are already built into the stock.

00:12:36 ◼   ► So it's all about future prediction.

00:12:38 ◼   ► So it must be, it's people feeling the stock is undervalued,

00:12:42 ◼   ► people feeling that the stock is a better bet

00:12:44 ◼   ► than other places for them to put their money,

00:12:46 ◼   ► that Apple is much more likely to do well in the long run.

00:12:50 ◼   ► It's anticipation and rumors, it is.

00:12:52 ◼   ► It is about like the new iPhone

00:12:54 ◼   ► and getting excited about that.

00:12:55 ◼   ► And other rumors about what they're doing

00:12:58 ◼   ► and a feeling of confidence in Apple.

00:13:00 ◼   ► But some of it I think is, the market is interesting.

00:13:04 ◼   ► It's not always logical.

00:13:05 ◼   ► And for people who care like we do,

00:13:08 ◼   ► who care much more about the products

00:13:09 ◼   ► then we care about it as an investment opportunity.

00:13:12 ◼   ► And there are people out there who are very smart people.

00:13:14 ◼   ► I'm sure there are people who listen to this show

00:13:16 ◼   ► who really care are Apple investors

00:13:17 ◼   ► and they care about what Apple's doing

00:13:19 ◼   ► because they're thinking about Apple as an investment.

00:13:21 ◼   ► It's just not how I approach it.

00:13:22 ◼   ► It's not how most of the people we know approach this

00:13:25 ◼   ► because we're not in it to cover Apple as a stock.

00:13:28 ◼   ► We're in it to cover Apple as a company

00:13:30 ◼   ► that makes interesting products that we like to use.

00:13:33 ◼   ► And so for me, it's always a little bit baffling

00:13:37 ◼   ► about how this works

00:13:39 ◼   ► because the market's perception of Apple

00:13:41 ◼   ► is often quite different.

00:13:42 ◼   ► And this just to make sure we can ring the bell

00:13:46 ◼   ► that we've once again mentioned ATP.

00:13:48 ◼   ► You know, last week's ATP at one point,

00:13:50 ◼   ► there was a rant, Marco went off on a rant a little bit.

00:13:55 ◼   ► And at some point John Saracusa said,

00:13:56 ◼   ► you know, nobody's gonna be called to task

00:13:59 ◼   ► for Apple not putting out a new Mac Pro

00:14:01 ◼   ► if the stock's at an all time high.

00:14:03 ◼   ► And there's some truth to that,

00:14:04 ◼   ► that like, you know, you have to balance

00:14:06 ◼   ► the way we view Apple,

00:14:07 ◼   ► which is from a user's perspective

00:14:09 ◼   ► and the way the market views Apple.

00:14:12 ◼   ► Not saying that Apple internal management

00:14:13 ◼   ► doesn't have issues with some of the stuff

00:14:15 ◼   ► that's been going on

00:14:16 ◼   ► and the people might be called to account for it

00:14:17 ◼   ► if they are seen to be poor performers.

00:14:19 ◼   ► I don't really know that.

00:14:21 ◼   ► What I am saying is total different perspective

00:14:24 ◼   ► if you're an investor looking at Apple

00:14:25 ◼   ► and Apple's potential

00:14:26 ◼   ► and if you're a grumpy Mac user who has seen,

00:14:30 ◼   ► the latest, the last year of Mac releases from Apple.

00:14:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's just,

00:14:35 ◼   ► I think it puts things into a strange perspective, right?

00:14:38 ◼   ► Like, I guess the company has to and does pay attention

00:14:42 ◼   ► to both of these things, you know?

00:14:44 ◼   ► Like the happiness of their most enthusiastic users

00:14:48 ◼   ► and also their investors because they're both important.

00:14:51 ◼   ► I can't say who's more important, I don't know, honestly.

00:14:55 ◼   ► Like you can make arguments for both.

00:14:57 ◼   ► But to us, obviously our needs and our desires

00:15:01 ◼   ► are more important than anything else.

00:15:03 ◼   ► - Clearly.

00:15:04 ◼   ► But I just think it's interesting to see that at a time where the Apple enthusiast

00:15:11 ◼   ► media is saying that Apple is currently a little bit boring because they're not doing

00:15:17 ◼   ► anything, right? Or at least they're not doing the things that we want them to do that

00:15:20 ◼   ► seem so obvious that they should be doing, that the stock market is like, "Yeah! This

00:15:26 ◼   ► is great!" You know? And it's just a strange juxtaposition to see these two things happening

00:15:32 ◼   ► at the same time. Yeah, and of course the reality is that you can't, if you wait to

00:15:41 ◼   ► change the direction of your company based on feedback like, Steve Jobs actually I think

00:15:50 ◼   ► really managed this way which was never be comfortable always be thinking about the next

00:15:54 ◼   ► thing is and I hope Apple continues to have that culture that Steve Jobs put inside of

00:15:58 ◼   ► Apple because this is a great example where it would be very easy to say look

00:16:05 ◼   ► how much money we make from the iPhone it's one of the most successful

00:16:07 ◼   ► commercial products in existence

00:16:09 ◼   ► look at how great we're doing on on stock market everything is great and the

00:16:13 ◼   ► danger is if you look at those and say everything's fine and don't make changes

00:16:19 ◼   ► what's happening potentially is that what's happening inside Apple and and

00:16:24 ◼   ► its processes are not doing as well, and by the time that's visible to the outside world

00:16:31 ◼   ► and they start to take some hits, it's, you know, there's so much lag time that it's going

00:16:37 ◼   ► to be years before they can turn it around and they're going to go through many more

00:16:41 ◼   ► hard times. So I hope that Apple's culture remains such that they can look at the big

00:16:47 ◼   ► stock price and they can look at the great iPhone sales every single quarter and say,

00:16:55 ◼   ► "Yeah, but if we stop here, we have not done our jobs," and use their net worth, which

00:17:03 ◼   ► has just gone up because all these people have Apple stock options as part of their

00:17:08 ◼   ► compensation, use it as a motivation to do the next great thing instead of viewing, basically,

00:17:15 ◼   ► status quo is fine because we're doing great.

00:17:18 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:17:19 ◼   ► It was just something that I saw the article go by

00:17:22 ◼   ► and I was like, wow, that's very strange.

00:17:25 ◼   ► - Isn't it funny?

00:17:26 ◼   ► It's certainly quite a contrast from the grumpiness of,

00:17:29 ◼   ► but like I said, I think Mac users especially

00:17:32 ◼   ► have reason to be grumpy and it doesn't necessarily mean,

00:17:34 ◼   ► I mean, let's be honest,

00:17:35 ◼   ► Apple would probably not get hit much if at all

00:17:38 ◼   ► in the stock price, if Apple said,

00:17:40 ◼   ► we're abandoning the Mac and focusing entirely

00:17:43 ◼   ► on the iPhone.

00:17:44 ◼   ► because the iPhone is so incredibly popular.

00:17:45 ◼   ► Yeah, it's so incredibly popular.

00:17:47 ◼   ► I don't think they're gonna do that,

00:17:48 ◼   ► but like the market doesn't care about the Mac users, right?

00:17:52 ◼   ► They care about the big picture

00:17:54 ◼   ► and the iPhone is really the big picture and the future.

00:17:57 ◼   ► The iPhone and then belief in Apple's internal genius

00:18:01 ◼   ► to create new product categories.

00:18:03 ◼   ► And some of that, you know, that's a bet.

00:18:04 ◼   ► That's where the future bet comes in,

00:18:06 ◼   ► which is whether it's car or it's,

00:18:08 ◼   ► Mark Herman had a report out today

00:18:10 ◼   ► about augmented reality down the road for Apple.

00:18:13 ◼   ► like whatever future bets they're making,

00:18:15 ◼   ► part of what's built into the stock price

00:18:17 ◼   ► is a belief that Apple will have more things

00:18:20 ◼   ► and they will continue to do well with new things.

00:18:23 ◼   ► Maintaining the Mac base, while important to us

00:18:27 ◼   ► and important to people, I would say within Apple,

00:18:29 ◼   ► to a certain degree at least, is not what they care about.

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00:19:46 ◼   ► So last month at the Recode conference, Peter Kafka, he interviewed at EdiQ about a bunch of

00:19:54 ◼   ► things. One of these was, one question that he asked was about podcasting and he was talking

00:20:01 ◼   ► about the shows that he does and he was talking about like the fact that he'd gotten an email from

00:20:06 ◼   ► from someone at Gimlet that wanted a bunch of questions to be asked or something. And

00:20:10 ◼   ► he basically said, "What are you doing in podcasting?" And Eddy Cue effectively shut

00:20:15 ◼   ► the entire conversation down with a quote, which I'll read here. He said, "I think

00:20:19 ◼   ► there's a huge resurgence in podcasting." Thanks, Eddy. "And it's exactly what customers

00:20:24 ◼   ► want because it's the ability of listening to something on demand when you want. And

00:20:27 ◼   ► that's exactly what it's about. Can we do more? And will we do more? Absolutely. We're

00:20:32 ◼   ► working on new features for podcasts, stay tuned.

00:20:36 ◼   ► This is one of those types of PR quotes that says everything and nothing.

00:20:41 ◼   ► Yeah, it's like the Tim Cook things about creative Mac users where it's like, "Oh, no,

00:20:46 ◼   ► they're very important to us."

00:20:48 ◼   ► And then it's like, "Okay, we're moving on.

00:20:50 ◼   ► What does that mean?"

00:20:52 ◼   ► And it's funny, I think this got lost a little bit in the whole people talking about Apple's

00:20:57 ◼   ► TV show.

00:20:58 ◼   ► I mean, that's sort of what everybody came out of there with.

00:21:00 ◼   ► like, oh, there's gonna be this TV show on,

00:21:03 ◼   ► that's Planet of the Apps,

00:21:04 ◼   ► and everybody was kind of snarking about that.

00:21:06 ◼   ► - That was the big news that came from it.

00:21:08 ◼   ► - But I thought this was really an interesting,

00:21:12 ◼   ► mysterious quote because I fully expected Apple to say,

00:21:16 ◼   ► look, podcasts are great,

00:21:18 ◼   ► we're happy to have the leading podcast directory,

00:21:22 ◼   ► and we've been there since the very beginning

00:21:25 ◼   ► supporting the podcasting world

00:21:27 ◼   ► because we think it's super important,

00:21:28 ◼   ► and we have been and will continue to be a leader

00:21:31 ◼   ► 'cause podcasts are great.

00:21:32 ◼   ► And instead he says,

00:21:36 ◼   ► there's a huge renaissance, people are excited about it,

00:21:40 ◼   ► and we can do more and we're working on more.

00:21:43 ◼   ► It's like, okay, well that is, I agree it's nothing.

00:21:47 ◼   ► And yet it's less than, it's more than nothing, nothing.

00:21:52 ◼   ► I guess I don't know how you do it.

00:21:55 ◼   ► - It's not just we think podcasts are really great

00:21:58 ◼   ► and have a lovely home on iTunes.

00:21:59 ◼   ► - That's right, yay podcasts!

00:22:01 ◼   ► Instead it's like, yes, and we will be doing more.

00:22:04 ◼   ► Stay tuned, goodbye.

00:22:05 ◼   ► And so it's like, I won't say anything more about it,

00:22:07 ◼   ► but it is one tick up from nothing because it's,

00:22:10 ◼   ► they didn't, he didn't need to say that, right?

00:22:12 ◼   ► He didn't need to tease future developments for podcasts

00:22:15 ◼   ► 'cause nobody really expects

00:22:16 ◼   ► future developments for podcasts, right?

00:22:18 ◼   ► I think he could have easily gotten away with just saying,

00:22:21 ◼   ► yeah, they're great, we love them, we're the leader,

00:22:23 ◼   ► yay us, yay podcasting, awesome.

00:22:27 ◼   ► And he didn't, he said, no, wait, wait, hey,

00:22:30 ◼   ► hold on everybody, we're working on more stuff for podcasts.

00:22:34 ◼   ► Stay tuned.

00:22:34 ◼   ► - So what could this mean?

00:22:38 ◼   ► So let's assume that they are doing something.

00:22:42 ◼   ► So let's assume that this quote means

00:22:44 ◼   ► that they are working on some stuff.

00:22:47 ◼   ► - Exactly, yeah, and so last week on Six Colors,

00:22:50 ◼   ► I tried to break this down a little bit

00:22:52 ◼   ► 'cause it was like, I felt like nobody, I searched.

00:22:54 ◼   ► I was like, did anybody do this story

00:22:56 ◼   ► like after he talked about it, I got it on my list for weeks and I thought like, "Surely

00:23:00 ◼   ► there will be a conspiracy theory, what could it mean story about this?" And I couldn't

00:23:05 ◼   ► find one. Maybe there's one out there, but I never remembered reading one, so I did my

00:23:10 ◼   ► own.

00:23:11 ◼   ► So basically, where Apple are right now with podcasts, they have the iTunes podcast directory,

00:23:18 ◼   ► which was unveiled in 2005, and I would argue that it is basically the backbone of the podcast

00:23:25 ◼   ► industry. Yes, it is the largest directory. Basically everything is there. It is mostly

00:23:33 ◼   ► open to everyone. Apple do have some guidelines of what they allow in but it's mostly open

00:23:40 ◼   ► to everyone including explicit content. Fill out a form, submit your RSS feed and that's

00:23:45 ◼   ► it. Yep, and it's just RSS. That's it. The iTunes store doesn't host or redeliver your

00:23:53 ◼   ► content in any way, it is effectively a handshake between you, the user, and the RSS feed from

00:24:02 ◼   ► the producer. All Apple does is just subscribes you to that feed, then they're gone from the

00:24:07 ◼   ► equation if you're using the Apple podcast app. They're out of it. Apple has nothing

00:24:11 ◼   ► else to do with that relationship. Also as well, and you noted this in your article,

00:24:17 ◼   ► Basically for podcast producers, Apple has a pretty basic version of iTunes Connect,

00:24:24 ◼   ► which is the portal that they give to app developers, that they allow for podcasters

00:24:28 ◼   ► to use to kind of make some small changes to their page and allow them to submit more

00:24:34 ◼   ► than one show.

00:24:35 ◼   ► So after you submit the first one and you're in kind of the iTunes podcast connect portal,

00:24:39 ◼   ► you can submit more shows and it's an easier, more streamlined process and you get some

00:24:44 ◼   ► tools to kind of to manage things. And it's interesting because this is so this

00:24:49 ◼   ► will start in 2005 and an interesting historical note is this whole thing was

00:24:53 ◼   ► like podcasts were coming on and somebody at Apple said well why don't we

00:24:57 ◼   ► do something here and what they did was they they hacked the iTunes music store

00:25:03 ◼   ► infrastructure. Yeah. To create a podcast section in iTunes that's what they did.

00:25:07 ◼   ► That's all it is that's why there's charts and stuff like that. Exactly and

00:25:11 ◼   ► And what's funny is three years later, of course, they did their biggest hack of the

00:25:15 ◼   ► iTunes music store, which was the App Store, right? Which is entirely based on iTunes.

00:25:21 ◼   ► But this was like before the App Store came, this was like their, maybe not their first

00:25:26 ◼   ► because they did add like movies and TV. But this was an early example of Apple taking

00:25:31 ◼   ► their music infrastructure and just doing another category, in this case, podcasts.

00:25:37 ◼   ► they used as you mentioned it's all standard right this is not a custom

00:25:41 ◼   ► there are some custom tags in RSS feeds that you can put in that are iTunes tags

00:25:48 ◼   ► that basically give iTunes more information about your category and your

00:25:53 ◼   ► art and stuff like that but it's a it's an open thing and anybody can submit it

00:25:58 ◼   ► is basically Apple just said nobody's doing this and the for people to find

00:26:02 ◼   ► podcasts there needs to be a central directory so we'll build one and put it

00:26:05 ◼   ► iTunes and it is for the last 12 years it has not had any serious competition as the

00:26:11 ◼   ► definitive place for where podcasts live.

00:26:15 ◼   ► Funnily enough, this is just a funny piece of serendipity for me. This was the same presentation

00:26:23 ◼   ► in which they announced the switch to Intel for the Mac. My first Mac was the first Intel

00:26:30 ◼   ► and the iTunes podcast directory is obviously pretty important to me. Just a

00:26:36 ◼   ► funny little thing to me, like this kind of started all of everything that ran

00:26:41 ◼   ► through for me. It's just obviously this this event made a big impact on my brain

00:26:44 ◼   ► and I didn't know about it. So as well as all of these tools and the

00:26:49 ◼   ► directory itself, Apple has some marketing support for podcasts currently.

00:26:54 ◼   ► You see they have like the Twitter account and they obviously have the

00:26:58 ◼   ► featured pages and stuff like that which run they have it seems like they have

00:27:02 ◼   ► some sort of global reach on this I know there's some US support but there's also

00:27:06 ◼   ► dedicated support in other countries like the UK featured page is different

00:27:10 ◼   ► to the US featured page I just saw they had a job posting the other week that a

00:27:14 ◼   ► couple people sent to me I'm not quite sure if they want me to work at Apple on

00:27:18 ◼   ► podcast but they sent it to me and it was and I mean I think I have one person

00:27:23 ◼   ► send me said you know anybody who could do this job and it was it was a Spanish

00:27:27 ◼   ► language preferred, ideally curating podcasting charts and stuff for South America.

00:27:34 ◼   ► So there you go. They don't care about it, right? They have a resource for it. And of

00:27:38 ◼   ► course the iOS app is installed on all devices. This has gone backwards and forwards over

00:27:43 ◼   ► the years. They broke it out from the iTunes app, or the music app, whatever it was. Then

00:27:49 ◼   ► it was, you had to install it like you would install pages and then they pre-installed

00:27:54 ◼   ► it on all phones. Currently it's pre-installed as part of iOS.

00:27:57 ◼   ► Yeah, absolutely. So this is where Apple is right now. This is their podcast offering.

00:28:04 ◼   ► And you broke down your piece into a couple of headers. And the first header I also want

00:28:09 ◼   ► to read with some chunky quotes from your article, if you'll allow me to do so.

00:28:14 ◼   ► Sure, quote me.

00:28:15 ◼   ► So, "What Apple won't do" is what Jason says, and that is provide a lot of user data. So

00:28:20 ◼   ► This is from Mr Jason Snell. This is, I suspect, what every podcasting startup wants. Unlike

00:28:25 ◼   ► the web, where user behavior can be closely measured and quantified, podcasting is a bit

00:28:29 ◼   ► of a mystery. In general, we know that you downloaded a file, and that's it. To know

00:28:34 ◼   ► more, you need to be inside of the apps that people use to listen to podcasts.

00:28:39 ◼   ► I will just say, as a founder of a podcasting startup, Jason, I will call foul to your point

00:28:45 ◼   ► there. I don't want this.

00:28:47 ◼   ► - Well, okay.

00:28:48 ◼   ► Well, that's, I mean,

00:28:49 ◼   ► and I think I said earlier in that article,

00:28:52 ◼   ► it's a podcasting startup with venture backing

00:28:55 ◼   ► and investors who want a big return on their investment

00:28:58 ◼   ► and they wanna spend their money and ramp up really fast.

00:29:02 ◼   ► And yeah, this is like the gimlets of the world want this.

00:29:06 ◼   ► As Peter Kafka said to Eddie Q on stage,

00:29:09 ◼   ► this is the kind of stuff that the gimlets of the world want.

00:29:11 ◼   ► And I think a lot of people think they want this stuff

00:29:14 ◼   ► because they're thinking about digital advertising

00:29:16 ◼   ► and like on the web you get metrics.

00:29:19 ◼   ► You get so many metrics about who people are

00:29:21 ◼   ► and where they've been and what they're clicking on

00:29:23 ◼   ► and all of that.

00:29:24 ◼   ► And people don't realize that the way podcasting works

00:29:26 ◼   ► is like literally you download the file

00:29:29 ◼   ► and then you disappear.

00:29:30 ◼   ► You go into the fog after you downloaded a file.

00:29:33 ◼   ► We don't know if you play it.

00:29:35 ◼   ► We don't know how long it plays.

00:29:37 ◼   ► We don't know if you skip the ads.

00:29:39 ◼   ► The only way that we can see you through that fog at all

00:29:41 ◼   ► is if you send us an email or tweet at us

00:29:44 ◼   ► or use the offer code on an ad or anything like that.

00:29:49 ◼   ► But I can't tell once you download the file,

00:29:52 ◼   ► I basically can't tell if you ever play it or not.

00:29:55 ◼   ► You could subscribe and some apps will,

00:29:58 ◼   ► if you don't listen,

00:29:59 ◼   ► they'll stop downloading after a little while.

00:30:00 ◼   ► And we can tell that because the download number changes,

00:30:02 ◼   ► but we can't see user behavior.

00:30:05 ◼   ► That's a fact.

00:30:06 ◼   ► And it unnerves people who are,

00:30:08 ◼   ► even though in the history of media,

00:30:10 ◼   ► most media is like that.

00:30:11 ◼   ► We don't know how many people looked at the billboard.

00:30:13 ◼   ► We don't know how many people actually opened up that magazine that they subscribe to or

00:30:16 ◼   ► that newspaper that they subscribe to.

00:30:18 ◼   ► We don't know how many people had their eyes focused on the television when the ad played,

00:30:24 ◼   ► right?

00:30:25 ◼   ► We don't know any of those things either.

00:30:26 ◼   ► I mean, honestly, but you don't actually know how many people had the TV on, right?

00:30:30 ◼   ► It's all extrapolated stuff.

00:30:31 ◼   ► Right, it's all--I mean, there are meters and stuff now too, and they try to do some

00:30:35 ◼   ► eye tracking and person counting for some of that to get a sample of it, but it's not

00:30:38 ◼   ► like digital where in web advertising they know how many ads get served and they know

00:30:44 ◼   ► how many clicks there are. They know everything. And I think that that's spoiled digital ad

00:30:50 ◼   ► agencies where they view podcasting as a digital play and not as a radio or TV or newspaper

00:30:56 ◼   ► or magazine and they want all those stats. Now I think we could argue, would they actually

00:31:02 ◼   ► do anything with them and do they really need them? But they want them. There's a perception

00:31:07 ◼   ► that that stuff is desired and they can't get them without somebody handing

00:31:11 ◼   ► them data from inside an app which is why some podcast networks have their own

00:31:16 ◼   ► apps.

00:31:17 ◼   ► Another reason is that they can also lock content behind a paywall and we'll

00:31:20 ◼   ► talk about that in a minute I suspect but one of the reasons is because then

00:31:24 ◼   ► all the user behavior data belongs to them. So Stitcher for example is

00:31:30 ◼   ► you know that's owned by mid-roll they have a premium offering that's that you

00:31:34 ◼   ► pay for and you get extra stuff, but they also let you--it's a regular podcast app,

00:31:40 ◼   ► and it's not like it used to be where it re-encoded podcasts, it's just a regular podcast client

00:31:43 ◼   ► now--but Stitcher can--and I don't know if they are, I assume they are--look at your

00:31:49 ◼   ► behavior in the app. They can aggregate that and say, "This podcast was played by a certain

00:31:55 ◼   ► number, not just downloaded, and the average distance in that a listener got was here."

00:32:02 ◼   ► And if you aren't on the app looking at user behavior, you don't know.

00:32:07 ◼   ► And you know, I don't really have a desire to get any of that data personally.

00:32:13 ◼   ► And I agree.

00:32:15 ◼   ► I sell ads for Relay FM and I am a host, you know, like I have, I'm part of the whole package

00:32:23 ◼   ► and I don't, with where we are right now and the way that the business is right now, I

00:32:28 ◼   ► don't think it's necessary.

00:32:29 ◼   ► I think we're fine to continue our business and the podcast industry as business as a

00:32:35 ◼   ► whole as it is because the rights are good because the responsiveness is good and there

00:32:41 ◼   ► is a lot of what is called direct response advertising which is where we give codes or

00:32:46 ◼   ► URLs and the advertisers know if that works for them.

00:32:49 ◼   ► Exactly right.

00:32:50 ◼   ► It's more simple than the web but honestly it has worked and it is working and I am really

00:32:56 ◼   ► confused as to why people think it will get better if they can change it. I don't see

00:33:03 ◼   ► that happening.

00:33:04 ◼   ► And I've talked to our friend Lex Friedman who heads up sales at Midroll.

00:33:09 ◼   ► He's been on the show before. We had him on in the past.

00:33:12 ◼   ► He's been on this show and we've talked to him about this, right? Maybe we'll talk to

00:33:14 ◼   ► him again in the future because it is kind of fascinating. But he's made the point and

00:33:18 ◼   ► he's absolutely right. Like if I'm an advertiser and I give you X dollars and I look at how

00:33:23 ◼   ► many people put in my offer code and I say, "Wow, that really worked. I'm very happy with

00:33:27 ◼   ► how well that worked. I'm going to keep advertising." Does the number I claim to you in terms of

00:33:34 ◼   ► how many people listen to my podcast matter? Like, should you not be thinking of it in

00:33:39 ◼   ► terms of the value of who get who returned to you? Now, there are some cases with branding,

00:33:46 ◼   ► brand advertising, where you're less focused on the code and and you're, you know, that's

00:33:51 ◼   ► That's more of a cross my fingers and hope people are listening kind of situation, where

00:33:55 ◼   ► getting a tangible number could be helpful, but even then we can approximate.

00:34:01 ◼   ► And I think there's a move in the industry to try to find a common measurement statistic,

00:34:06 ◼   ► which is harder than it sounds, of like, how do you define a listener to a podcast?

00:34:12 ◼   ► Because of the way that it works on the technical side, it can be a hard thing to do.

00:34:15 ◼   ► But if we can nail that down, of like, this is how many people downloaded this podcast,

00:34:19 ◼   ► the numbers match, which they currently don't, then that's probably enough, right? Because

00:34:26 ◼   ► in the end, if I tell you I got 30,000 downloads, but we got a newfangled statistic that says

00:34:31 ◼   ► I've got 20,000 who actually listened, and the results for you as an advertiser are exactly

00:34:36 ◼   ► the same, you should pay me the same. Because that's what it's about, right? So I'm skeptical

00:34:43 ◼   ► and having worked on the web, right, for several years, many years, I can tell you there's

00:34:48 ◼   ► a lot of data, it isn't used well, a lot of times it's not measured right, and it is misused

00:34:55 ◼   ► by salespeople and by ad agencies and by clients to get whatever they want, to push the rates

00:35:02 ◼   ► down, to, you know, it's not, I don't see it in most cases as actually being valuable,

00:35:08 ◼   ► I see it as being corrosive. So, you know, I think, and then let's take this up a level,

00:35:15 ◼   ► we're talking about like would they actually use it I think the big picture

00:35:18 ◼   ► and like I said you quoted me saying what Apple won't do is I have a really

00:35:23 ◼   ► hard time seeing Apple provide detailed data about the behavior of its customers

00:35:30 ◼   ► inside an app back to the people who are a third party a core OS app as well

00:35:37 ◼   ► right I just have a hard time seeing Apple saying you know what hey everybody

00:35:41 ◼   ► who uses an iPhone, from now on when you play or pause or skip in our podcast app,

00:35:48 ◼   ► we're going to aggregate that data and send it to the maker of that podcast.

00:35:53 ◼   ► I just cannot envision Apple going down that route just because of Apple's

00:35:57 ◼   ► take on the sanctity of user data. I just have a hard time imagining that they

00:36:03 ◼   ► would ever let that level of detail happen. Now maybe they could do some

00:36:07 ◼   ► basic stats of plays or something like that and maybe they would do that. I'm

00:36:10 ◼   ► I'm skeptical still, but maybe. But I don't think Apple is ever going to be able to provide

00:36:16 ◼   ► podcasters with that level of detail of user behavior because it violates their stand on

00:36:23 ◼   ► privacy, user privacy.

00:36:25 ◼   ► So you have some other headings. What Apple might do, which is support paid subscriptions

00:36:30 ◼   ► for shows. So as you point out in the article, Apple has a payment infrastructure sitting

00:36:36 ◼   ► right there, which is part of the same underpinnings that the podcast store is built on, which

00:36:41 ◼   ► is the iTunes store and the app store, right? Like that infrastructure, the Apple ID infrastructure,

00:36:48 ◼   ► that's sitting right there with the ability to take people's money. So this may be to

00:36:53 ◼   ► enable for producers to create podcasts that have, that are just listener supported, you

00:37:01 ◼   ► know, like how you have one and we have one.

00:37:04 ◼   ► Yeah, like I was saying how Howl and Stitcher Premium and there are a bunch of things like

00:37:09 ◼   ► that or I mean there are plenty of examples where you have to download an app, a special

00:37:14 ◼   ► app to get access to that podcast because it's paid or Audible does this and sometimes

00:37:21 ◼   ► it's we wall off the archive, Script Notes does that and Marc Maron does that and you

00:37:25 ◼   ► have to pay and log in and then you get access and you can listen in those special apps.

00:37:30 ◼   ► So I could imagine Apple saying, "Hey, we're going to make it podcasters so that you don't

00:37:34 ◼   ► have to build your own app or work with a company who built a white-labeled app that

00:37:39 ◼   ► you're going to modify to look like you. You can just do it in Apple podcasts and iTunes."

00:37:47 ◼   ► And we've got a payment infrastructure already because we sell billions and billions of dollars

00:37:52 ◼   ► of apps and music and movies and whatever, and now you can do that for your podcasts.

00:37:57 ◼   ► here's a format and it's, you know, maybe it's just RSS, but it's put in a special place

00:38:01 ◼   ► or it's got some special tags and they, I don't know, you know, how the details would

00:38:06 ◼   ► work, but they have all the pieces to do that and say, we know that you're struggling in

00:38:11 ◼   ► making money and want to be able to sell your podcast to and the open podcast format doesn't

00:38:16 ◼   ► allow it. So we have, we've worked our magic to do that for you. I totally could see Apple

00:38:21 ◼   ► doing that. I, the question is, does this matter enough to Apple for them to build something

00:38:26 ◼   ► like that? And normally I would say no, but then again, I didn't expect Eddy Cue to say,

00:38:30 ◼   ► we've got things coming in podcasting. I expected him to just say, yay, podcasting is great.

00:38:35 ◼   ► So it makes me wonder if there's a commerce story here where they could be, because also

00:38:40 ◼   ► that's very Apple to swoop in as the savior and say, aha, we have the answer to people

00:38:46 ◼   ► who want to charge for special podcasts. We can make that happen and save those podcasters

00:38:51 ◼   ► and give them a single solution that does this.

00:38:54 ◼   ► I could totally see Apple doing that, making that pitch.

00:38:57 ◼   ► - And if they did that,

00:38:58 ◼   ► Apple starts becoming kind of like a gatekeeper

00:39:02 ◼   ► for specific content.

00:39:04 ◼   ► Could they then maybe put an application on Android,

00:39:09 ◼   ► like they have with Apple Music,

00:39:12 ◼   ► that would allow non-iOS users to get to that content?

00:39:15 ◼   ► Or would they wanna keep this content as iOS only

00:39:20 ◼   ► and/or would producers be happy enough to do that?

00:39:23 ◼   ► My gut feeling is that if Apple is going to go to the trouble

00:39:27 ◼   ► of launching a podcast subscriptions plan,

00:39:31 ◼   ► they would probably go to the trouble of doing an Android podcast app,

00:39:37 ◼   ► especially since the Android podcast app universe is not super strong, like

00:39:43 ◼   ► Pocketcast is there, and there are a few others, but like

00:39:46 ◼   ► Google Play Music podcast access is not the best. It's like,

00:39:49 ◼   ► It's not like that is a locked out area.

00:39:52 ◼   ► So Apple could go in there and then allow podcasters

00:39:55 ◼   ► to say you can subscribe to this paid podcast anywhere.

00:40:00 ◼   ► And they maybe do a web version,

00:40:02 ◼   ► they could do a Windows version,

00:40:03 ◼   ► although there's iTunes on Windows,

00:40:04 ◼   ► although everybody hates it,

00:40:06 ◼   ► but you could do like a web version that you log into

00:40:08 ◼   ► and you could play it there and it could sync

00:40:10 ◼   ► just like iTunes and the podcast app sync.

00:40:12 ◼   ► So I think that's the only reason

00:40:14 ◼   ► I could see Apple doing podcasts for Android,

00:40:16 ◼   ► but it's a reason, it's not a bad reason

00:40:19 ◼   ► if you're going to jump in and say,

00:40:21 ◼   ► we're gonna be the place that people who wanna charge

00:40:23 ◼   ► for premium podcasts do it.

00:40:26 ◼   ► That would be, that's my theory.

00:40:28 ◼   ► - But obviously the thing that we can assume

00:40:30 ◼   ► that will definitely keep happening

00:40:31 ◼   ► is what Apple's been doing, right?

00:40:33 ◼   ► So curating and managing and moving forward

00:40:37 ◼   ► the application that's currently on iOS, right?

00:40:39 ◼   ► Like that's what's gonna happen.

00:40:41 ◼   ► - Iterating, yeah, they'll improve the curation.

00:40:43 ◼   ► They'll, you know, they're apparently staffing up

00:40:46 ◼   ► or at least keeping their staff, I think.

00:40:48 ◼   ► And I think doing better jobs with curation,

00:40:51 ◼   ► improving the app, doing some better stuff in the app,

00:40:54 ◼   ► I think that will certainly happen regardless

00:40:56 ◼   ► and would have, regardless of what Eddy Cue said,

00:40:59 ◼   ► I would imagine that they would just keep on iterating

00:41:02 ◼   ► on that stuff and making it better.

00:41:04 ◼   ► - But I guess if it's more,

00:41:06 ◼   ► I think that SafeBet would be on there being

00:41:10 ◼   ► some kind of support for paid podcast subscriptions.

00:41:15 ◼   ► - That's the best I can come up with

00:41:16 ◼   ► is Apple taking their existing free podcast database

00:41:21 ◼   ► and then adding a paid layer onto it.

00:41:24 ◼   ► So not like paying for your existing podcasts.

00:41:28 ◼   ► And it really is like the idea that if you're,

00:41:32 ◼   ► what Audible is doing now is a good example

00:41:38 ◼   ► or what Howl and Citra Premium are doing now,

00:41:41 ◼   ► which is we've got some shows

00:41:43 ◼   ► that you have to be a member to get, right?

00:41:46 ◼   ► So imagine somebody saying, here's a great new podcast,

00:41:49 ◼   ► it costs, you know, it costs $5 a year

00:41:54 ◼   ► or something like that to get it.

00:41:56 ◼   ► And if you don't pay, you don't get it.

00:41:58 ◼   ► There's questions about if this would even work,

00:42:01 ◼   ► but it's certainly a la carte purchases

00:42:03 ◼   ► and ongoing subscriptions are both things

00:42:05 ◼   ► that Apple has a great history with.

00:42:07 ◼   ► I'm not sure I love this idea and I'm not sure it would work.

00:42:11 ◼   ► I'm just saying that if I try to think of something

00:42:13 ◼   ► Apple might do and that I hear some demand for among some podcasters, especially ones

00:42:19 ◼   ► that are trying to find a good revenue model, then I could see this happening. I'm not sure

00:42:24 ◼   ► I would ever use it, but the fact is I have a premium podcast feeder too for The Incomparable

00:42:33 ◼   ► and Relay does too, and it's more security through obscurity and honor system than anything

00:42:39 ◼   ► else because there's no way to lock that down. And I'm fine with that because I want to let

00:42:42 ◼   ► people listen in Overcast if they want to and not say you can only listen to this in

00:42:47 ◼   ► podcasts and I imagine that's how it would work right it's not going to be like oh Marco

00:42:52 ◼   ► here's the API that lets you have access to the premium podcast it seems unlikely right

00:42:57 ◼   ► it's more going to be it's in the podcast app on iOS if you log in with your Apple ID

00:43:02 ◼   ► and subscribe.

00:43:03 ◼   ► I guess the one thing that I would be interested in and would think it'd be kind of cool if

00:43:08 ◼   ► if they did it would be a way to allow people to pay

00:43:13 ◼   ► for early access, you know?

00:43:15 ◼   ► So like, if you pay, you get the show,

00:43:17 ◼   ► and then a week later it's free, or something like that.

00:43:20 ◼   ► - Which is what a lot of those other models do.

00:43:22 ◼   ► Like Audible does that. - I would like to see it,

00:43:24 ◼   ► because otherwise there's gonna be two listings

00:43:26 ◼   ► for every single podcast in existence, right?

00:43:30 ◼   ► - Oh, yeah.

00:43:32 ◼   ► - 'Cause they're gonna put it up for the paid version,

00:43:34 ◼   ► or they're gonna have the free version,

00:43:36 ◼   ► which comes out later, which has ads in it.

00:43:38 ◼   ► I think it would be kind of cool if they found a way to

00:43:40 ◼   ► To do that right and again, I can't force really foresee

00:43:47 ◼   ► wanting to go down this route like I can't think of any project that I have currently or I'm

00:43:53 ◼   ► Thinking about that would fit this because of it being walled into Apple's application

00:43:58 ◼   ► But yeah, I guess one other thing that you didn't mention that

00:44:03 ◼   ► I don't think Apple will do is become an advertising player of any kind

00:44:07 ◼   ► Don't you think they've gone down that route already?

00:44:15 ◼   ► I think it's right to point it out because it does indicate that something is coming

00:44:20 ◼   ► but I think it's kind of unclear to put my finger on exactly what they're going to do

00:44:28 ◼   ► but I think that logic would dictate what you have suggested here which is that it would

00:44:34 ◼   ► be some kind of way for podcasters to make money from Apple's stored credit cards.

00:44:42 ◼   ► So there you go.

00:44:44 ◼   ► This week's episode, this is how we make money, this week's episode is brought to you by FreshBooks.

00:44:50 ◼   ► Whether you are racing against the clock to wrap up the projects that you're working on whilst preparing for a meeting later in the afternoon,

00:44:57 ◼   ► or whilst trying to tackle a mounting of paperwork or maybe you're out in the field, it doesn't matter what you're doing,

00:45:02 ◼   ► of what you're doing, life as a freelancer can be challenging and invoicing is just one of the

00:45:07 ◼   ► biggest challenges because it's tricky to manage. It's also the way that you make money, right?

00:45:14 ◼   ► You make money as a freelancer. Somebody has a client who buys the invoices that you send out.

00:45:20 ◼   ► So you want this stuff to be dealt with really well. You want to be able to give your clients

00:45:24 ◼   ► loads of ways to pay you and you want to be able to have tools that help you manage it.

00:45:28 ◼   ► That's what FreshBooks is all about. Their platform is designed with the focus on telling

00:45:35 ◼   ► you how your business is doing and allowing you to send out your invoices quickly. You'll

00:45:41 ◼   ► be able to jump in to FreshBooks and get an invoice sent out in less than 30 seconds that's

00:45:45 ◼   ► going to look super professional. You can put your logo on it and everything. You'll

00:45:49 ◼   ► be able to build it in their wizard widget interface so you will see exactly how your

00:45:53 ◼   ► client's going to see it when it hits their inbox. You'll be able to set up for online

00:45:57 ◼   ► payments in just a couple of clicks. This is why FreshBooks customers get paid up to

00:46:03 ◼   ► 4 days faster than anybody else. So for example you can integrate their own payment system

00:46:08 ◼   ► that they've built, you can integrate card payments, you can integrate PayPal payments,

00:46:12 ◼   ► you can give information on how people can send you cheques, it's all in there so you

00:46:15 ◼   ► can give your clients any way they want to pay you, they can make it happen. You'll be

00:46:21 ◼   ► able to see where your invoice is with your client as well, it's one of my favourite features.

00:46:27 ◼   ► you can go into any specific invoice, you can see if it's been opened, you can see if

00:46:30 ◼   ► it's been printed, you get an idea of where it is, and even if they come back to it, so

00:46:36 ◼   ► it's been 10 days, they log in again and they take a look again, you'll know that somebody's

00:46:40 ◼   ► come back to your invoice. Everything's tracked, no more guessing games, no more chaser emails.

00:46:44 ◼   ► You also get a feed which I really like so you can kind of, when you log into FreshBooks

00:46:48 ◼   ► with all their notifications, you can see who has been logging in, who hasn't been and

00:46:52 ◼   ► needs your attention.

00:47:21 ◼   ► So one of our Ask Upgrade questions was from Tyler and Tyler asked "What is on your home

00:47:29 ◼   ► screens?" Now this is too big of a question for this Ask Upgrade and I'm not sure, I

00:47:36 ◼   ► did a little search, I couldn't remember, I didn't think that me and you have ever

00:47:39 ◼   ► done this before and it's one of my favourite things to do is to compare people's home

00:47:45 ◼   ► screens. I take great pleasure in doing this, looking at people's home screens, asking

00:47:50 ◼   ► questions sometimes picking them apart if necessary. So we're going to do this. I think

00:47:55 ◼   ► we'll start with you Jason and we'll take a look at your iPhone and iPad. So there'll

00:48:00 ◼   ► be links in the show notes so people can go and see it. And this is like our home screen

00:48:05 ◼   ► says of like yesterday or something when I asked for the pictures. So we'll take a look

00:48:11 ◼   ► at your, we'll take a look at your iPhone home screen here. So let's kind of go left

00:48:18 ◼   ► to write from top to bottom and explain, you know, in as many words as you would like,

00:48:23 ◼   ► the choices that you have made for the apps that you have here.

00:48:27 ◼   ► All right. Um, messages. Because, you know, people need messages.

00:48:33 ◼   ► I send texts to my wife and my daughter and my mom and yeah, messages. Phone, no longer

00:48:43 ◼   ► in the doc. It was in the doc for a very long time, Myke. But I took it out because you

00:48:47 ◼   ► know what? I don't call on my iPhone very much. Pretty simple. But it took me a

00:48:53 ◼   ► while, took me a long time to accept a phone app needed to not be in the dock

00:48:58 ◼   ► anymore. It's still on your home screen though. Well I do make calls and I'm not

00:49:05 ◼   ► gonna go that far as to hide it. The App Store. Because you got to update

00:49:12 ◼   ► things, right? You got to find apps that somebody mentions to you. So I got the

00:49:16 ◼   ► app store there. These are up and the rationale here by the way is that the higher up it is

00:49:21 ◼   ► to a certain point the top row I'm actually not that I don't think those are that important

00:49:25 ◼   ► because they're far away from my from my fingers.

00:49:28 ◼   ► But you want to be I guess with the thing here is you want to be able to see those you

00:49:32 ◼   ► have badges set for those applications so I guess that's that's kind of the thinking

00:49:36 ◼   ► there right like messages and phone and the app store.

00:49:38 ◼   ► I do have badges on those.

00:49:39 ◼   ► You want to see there's stuff going on right I guess which makes sense to me.

00:49:44 ◼   ► There it is. I don't have a lot to say about that. The next row is maps.

00:49:49 ◼   ► And it's Apple maps, right? You use Apple maps.

00:49:52 ◼   ► Yeah, that's my primary.

00:49:54 ◼   ► Yeah, so the maps data here is fine. And then I have Google maps, but it's not on the screen.

00:49:59 ◼   ► Authy, which I use for two-factor codes for the most part.

00:50:04 ◼   ► Yes, I know that 1Password does two-factor as well.

00:50:08 ◼   ► I find Authy's interface much simpler at getting at two-factor codes.

00:50:13 ◼   ► codes. So don't email me. I do have one as a trial I put my Dropbox two-factor

00:50:21 ◼   ► in one password and it's more convenient when I'm at my Mac and less

00:50:27 ◼   ► convenient everywhere else because I have to open one password and unlock it

00:50:30 ◼   ► and go to my favorites or my where I've saved it and then I can view the code

00:50:36 ◼   ► and then Authy it opens and I can choose which account and the code is there. It's

00:50:42 ◼   ► It's easier.

00:50:43 ◼   ► So I like Offee.

00:50:44 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't do any of this.

00:50:46 ◼   ► I use text messages.

00:50:47 ◼   ► I feel like I need to get into the future with this.

00:50:50 ◼   ► Get into the future, Myke.

00:50:51 ◼   ► I use text messages for all of my Two Facts of Stuff.

00:50:53 ◼   ► Join us here.

00:50:54 ◼   ► We have iPod Hi-Fis.

00:50:55 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:50:56 ◼   ► That's the wrong future.

00:50:57 ◼   ► I don't want to be a part of that future smell.

00:51:00 ◼   ► No record players here in the future.

00:51:03 ◼   ► Find Friends is next to it because I use that a lot to see, is my wife coming home from

00:51:09 ◼   ► work yet?

00:51:10 ◼   ► you know, where's my daughter?

00:51:12 ◼   ► That happens a lot.

00:51:13 ◼   ► Where's my son?

00:51:14 ◼   ► If he's riding his bike home and I'm like,

00:51:16 ◼   ► is he on his way home yet?

00:51:18 ◼   ► Just checking in on where my family is.

00:51:21 ◼   ► - Where's Myke?

00:51:21 ◼   ► - That type of stuff.

00:51:23 ◼   ► - Where's Myke?

00:51:23 ◼   ► I can check on that.

00:51:24 ◼   ► Where's Steven Hackett?

00:51:25 ◼   ► I can find out.

00:51:26 ◼   ► Settings.

00:51:28 ◼   ► 'Cause you know, sometimes you gotta set settings.

00:51:31 ◼   ► - Gotta set those settings now.

00:51:33 ◼   ► - You gotta do it.

00:51:34 ◼   ► Next row, any list.

00:51:37 ◼   ► This is currently our shared grocery list app.

00:51:41 ◼   ► - Not me and you.

00:51:43 ◼   ► - No. - No.

00:51:44 ◼   ► - No, my families.

00:51:45 ◼   ► And it's not just me.

00:51:46 ◼   ► I used to say this was my wife's and mine,

00:51:48 ◼   ► but it's actually my daughter.

00:51:51 ◼   ► My daughter has now been given access to the AnyList list.

00:51:54 ◼   ► And now when she complains

00:51:56 ◼   ► that there's not something in the house,

00:51:58 ◼   ► we say, put it on the list,

00:51:59 ◼   ► instead of dutifully putting it on the list for her.

00:52:02 ◼   ► So she now has to do that as a 15 year old.

00:52:06 ◼   ► also leads to some very funny things

00:52:08 ◼   ► that I find on the list from time to time.

00:52:09 ◼   ► Like really, this must be Jamie.

00:52:11 ◼   ► Notes, 'cause notes is actually really great.

00:52:19 ◼   ► And I use it all the time to write down things that are,

00:52:24 ◼   ► I do this for my notes for when I'm watching a movie

00:52:27 ◼   ► or something for the incomparable,

00:52:28 ◼   ► or if I need something that is like a more detailed

00:52:32 ◼   ► than a to-do item, that is, you know,

00:52:35 ◼   ► here's a thing that I need to remember,

00:52:36 ◼   ► or something somebody is saying,

00:52:38 ◼   ► or I'm having a conversation with somebody

00:52:41 ◼   ► and they tell me a few things

00:52:42 ◼   ► that I need to write down somewhere

00:52:43 ◼   ► and I don't have paper or a pencil or a pen,

00:52:45 ◼   ► so I use notes for that.

00:52:47 ◼   ► So I keep it out there.

00:52:48 ◼   ► One password, because I do use one password all the time

00:52:54 ◼   ► to look things up.

00:52:55 ◼   ► And I can't just access it from the extension

00:53:00 ◼   ► for a few reasons.

00:53:01 ◼   ► Sometimes the extension doesn't work right.

00:53:05 ◼   ► yep and sometimes I need to get things on the clipboard for very specific

00:53:08 ◼   ► reasons for other apps or whatever so I need to have it handy

00:53:11 ◼   ► and then the next one that rose fantastic al

00:53:17 ◼   ► which is my calendar I use that instead of the Apple calendar on the iPhone

00:53:21 ◼   ► that's great

00:53:24 ◼   ► nothing no comments yet no my my comment on fantastic al will come after your

00:53:29 ◼   ► next application

00:53:31 ◼   ► - Oh, all right.

00:53:32 ◼   ► Reminders.

00:53:34 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:53:35 ◼   ► - So anytime I have an idea for a story

00:53:38 ◼   ► that I think would be a good story for Six Colors

00:53:40 ◼   ► or from a Mac world column, I open reminders.

00:53:42 ◼   ► I've got a story list list.

00:53:44 ◼   ► I write it down there.

00:53:45 ◼   ► Anytime I have an idea for like a novel I wanna write

00:53:48 ◼   ► or a short story I wanna write, I open reminders.

00:53:50 ◼   ► I've got a story ideas list.

00:53:53 ◼   ► I put it down there.

00:53:54 ◼   ► So that's literally, I mean, this happened to me yesterday

00:53:57 ◼   ► where I'm walking somewhere and I think,

00:53:59 ◼   ► oh that would be a cool novel idea and I open up reminders and type in enough that reminds

00:54:06 ◼   ► me that I had that idea and then I put it away again. Because if you don't write it

00:54:12 ◼   ► down then you may never remember it again. It could be a very good idea. They bubble

00:54:15 ◼   ► up all the time, story ideas do. Whether it's fiction ideas or especially like my tech writing

00:54:20 ◼   ► stuff those bubble up and I gotta capture them and I capture them in reminders. And

00:54:24 ◼   ► that is when I'm sitting at my desk here looking and thinking I gotta write something, what

00:54:29 ◼   ► am I gonna write?" I open the story list in Reminders and there are all of my dumb ideas

00:54:34 ◼   ► and then I look at them and I'm like, "No, no, yes, okay, maybe that one," and that's

00:54:39 ◼   ► how I manage that part of my process.

00:54:42 ◼   ► That's interesting. I put stuff like that in Notes, really.

00:54:46 ◼   ► Yeah, I like this because the story list is much more prominent and I do use Notes for

00:54:52 ◼   ► other things, so then I have to go find the story list, and there is something very satisfying

00:54:57 ◼   ► about checking the box when I post the story.

00:55:01 ◼   ► - You can have check boxes in the Nodes app.

00:55:03 ◼   ► - I can, but it's not the same.

00:55:05 ◼   ► This, I check the box and they go away.

00:55:08 ◼   ► - Ah, right, okay, yeah.

00:55:09 ◼   ► There's a big difference.

00:55:10 ◼   ► - I don't have to do any maintenance on it.

00:55:12 ◼   ► I just add them and then when I write the story,

00:55:13 ◼   ► I check the box and that's it.

00:55:15 ◼   ► So it works perfectly for how I use it.

00:55:17 ◼   ► - Then you have music and Sonos here.

00:55:21 ◼   ► - I listen to music, the music app,

00:55:23 ◼   ► when I have headphones on, on my iPhone.

00:55:26 ◼   ► I use the Sonos app when I'm playing music in the house.

00:55:30 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:55:31 ◼   ► - So I need both.

00:55:33 ◼   ► - Now the MLB at bat application,

00:55:37 ◼   ► is this video, is this like scores

00:55:42 ◼   ► and do you have it on your phone the whole time?

00:55:44 ◼   ► - Oh no, there's a whole,

00:55:46 ◼   ► so Myke, after the World Series is over,

00:55:49 ◼   ► I go through a one week period of mourning

00:55:51 ◼   ► that baseball is over until the next spring

00:55:53 ◼   ► And then there's a brief solemn ceremony is held

00:55:58 ◼   ► where the MLB at Bad App is removed from my home screen.

00:56:02 ◼   ► And then in March, as the flowers are beginning to peak up

00:56:07 ◼   ► out of the flower beds and the promise of spring is arriving,

00:56:11 ◼   ► there's another ceremony where there's confetti,

00:56:16 ◼   ► there may be some songs, and the MLB at Bad App

00:56:18 ◼   ► is added back to my home screen.

00:56:20 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:56:21 ◼   ► - And I don't even keep it somewhere else.

00:56:22 ◼   ► I delete it in the off season.

00:56:23 ◼   ► It's just not on my phone.

00:56:25 ◼   ► - Oh wow. - And I bring it back

00:56:26 ◼   ► and it's on the home screen.

00:56:27 ◼   ► - That's a big ceremony.

00:56:28 ◼   ► That was more than I expected.

00:56:29 ◼   ► - It's not thrown in a folder.

00:56:30 ◼   ► I'm not gonna throw baseball in a folder for the winter.

00:56:32 ◼   ► It goes away and you need to feel that death.

00:56:36 ◼   ► - That is dead, it's gone.

00:56:37 ◼   ► - That misery and then you bring it back.

00:56:40 ◼   ► And so now it's back and it does scores,

00:56:44 ◼   ► it does audio so I can listen to like,

00:56:46 ◼   ► I can be walking somewhere and listen to the baseball game

00:56:48 ◼   ► on my headphones while I'm going.

00:56:50 ◼   ► It does do video including live games, but also highlights.

00:56:54 ◼   ► And it does some push notifications

00:56:56 ◼   ► and I tweak those settings

00:56:57 ◼   ► so I can get some push notifications

00:56:59 ◼   ► of like the game is starting.

00:57:00 ◼   ► That's the one I have on for the giant.

00:57:01 ◼   ► The giant's game is starting now.

00:57:03 ◼   ► And that is useful to me.

00:57:06 ◼   ► So yeah, it's great.

00:57:07 ◼   ► It's a great app.

00:57:08 ◼   ► It's always been a great app.

00:57:09 ◼   ► It's one of the best apps on iOS since the very beginning.

00:57:13 ◼   ► - So then you have the mail app because you get email.

00:57:18 ◼   ► - I do sometimes get email

00:57:19 ◼   ► and I am back to using mail.

00:57:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, what's going on here?

00:57:24 ◼   ► What were you using?

00:57:25 ◼   ► Were you on air mail or Spark?

00:57:26 ◼   ► I don't remember.

00:57:27 ◼   ► - I was using air mail for a while.

00:57:29 ◼   ► - And why are you back on the Apple mail app now?

00:57:32 ◼   ► - You know, Spark has some HTML rendering issues

00:57:35 ◼   ► where I had email messages that I would open

00:57:39 ◼   ► and it would not display them

00:57:40 ◼   ► or it would only display parts of them.

00:57:42 ◼   ► Like Ben Thompson's Stratechery newsletter,

00:57:44 ◼   ► everything that he would quote in block quote

00:57:46 ◼   ► just didn't show up.

00:57:48 ◼   ► - Wait, did you say Spark or Air Mail?

00:57:50 ◼   ► - In Air Mail.

00:57:51 ◼   ► - In Air Mail, okay.

00:57:52 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:57:53 ◼   ► And so I'm just back to this for now.

00:57:55 ◼   ► And again, I'm kind of open.

00:57:56 ◼   ► And I use Gmail, so I could probably just use the Gmail app,

00:57:59 ◼   ► but I don't think I like the Gmail app

00:58:00 ◼   ► as much as I like this.

00:58:01 ◼   ► Although I thought about it.

00:58:02 ◼   ► I thought about Gmail, I thought about Inbox.

00:58:04 ◼   ► I've used those a little bit

00:58:05 ◼   ► because I do use Google Mail, so I could use Gmail.

00:58:09 ◼   ► But right now I'm back to Apple Mail.

00:58:12 ◼   ► I've gone back to the default, at least.

00:58:14 ◼   ► It's a tenuous hold on my home screen.

00:58:18 ◼   ► - Now, when I saw this picture initially,

00:58:20 ◼   ► is these next three icons on your bottom row

00:58:23 ◼   ► that I am the most interested in here?

00:58:25 ◼   ► - I thought about moving them out,

00:58:27 ◼   ► and then I decided, no, no, you get to see the real thing.

00:58:29 ◼   ► So next is a folder containing eight flight tracking apps,

00:58:34 ◼   ► because as I wrote on six colors,

00:58:37 ◼   ► my flight tracking app was discontinued.

00:58:39 ◼   ► - So it was my flight tracking app.

00:58:42 ◼   ► I downloaded a bunch of possible replacements

00:58:46 ◼   ► so that I can try them out and decide what I think

00:58:49 ◼   ► and write an article about it.

00:58:50 ◼   ► Like decide what I think of the flight.

00:58:51 ◼   ► - The whole world is looking at you for this answer.

00:58:53 ◼   ► You know that, right?

00:58:54 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:58:54 ◼   ► Yeah, unfortunately I'm not traveling for another two weeks.

00:58:57 ◼   ► So, and I haven't had the time to like put in a fake flight

00:59:00 ◼   ► and experience that, which I probably should do,

00:59:03 ◼   ► but I thought it might be better

00:59:04 ◼   ► if I just put my flights to London in here

00:59:06 ◼   ► and had that experience.

00:59:09 ◼   ► So this is a temporary thing.

00:59:11 ◼   ► And likewise, the next two,

00:59:14 ◼   ► I have Stitcher and Audible on here.

00:59:15 ◼   ► And that's because I've been listening to "Offices and Bosses"

00:59:19 ◼   ► which is a Stitcher premium show

00:59:20 ◼   ► based on "Hello from the Magic Tavern."

00:59:22 ◼   ► And it's only on Stitcher premium and Howl.

00:59:25 ◼   ► So I have to have one of those on here.

00:59:28 ◼   ► And Audible I have on here

00:59:29 ◼   ► because I've been listening to "Presidents or People 2"

00:59:32 ◼   ► which is a show that is an Audible original.

00:59:34 ◼   ► It does end up getting posted on iTunes

00:59:38 ◼   ► and I'm so far behind that it might be better,

00:59:40 ◼   ► I might be better off just subscribing

00:59:42 ◼   ► to the iTunes feed of it.

00:59:43 ◼   ► But as an Amazon Prime customer,

00:59:45 ◼   ► I have access to all that stuff through Audible,

00:59:46 ◼   ► all the Audible channels material.

00:59:48 ◼   ► - I did not know that.

00:59:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, Amazon Prime, you get access to the,

00:59:51 ◼   ► not to all the Audible books, but to their podcasts,

00:59:54 ◼   ► which are called channels.

00:59:55 ◼   ► The Audible app interface is terrible by the way,

00:59:57 ◼   ► but in terms of like controlling what you hear next,

01:00:01 ◼   ► I don't understand how it works,

01:00:02 ◼   ► which is why I might move it back to Overcast.

01:00:04 ◼   ► So those are there for now,

01:00:05 ◼   ► but they're not positions of honor.

01:00:07 ◼   ► it's more like I want to remind myself that I've got podcasts to listen to that I can't

01:00:12 ◼   ► listen to in Overcast so I need to use them instead. So they round it out. And then there's

01:00:17 ◼   ► another row that's empty.

01:00:19 ◼   ► So here's a question I have for you, right? You're an empty row person. You have three

01:00:24 ◼   ► icons that are currently seem to be temporary, right? The flight tracker's app, Stitcher

01:00:29 ◼   ► and Audible. But you have mail on this row with these. So do you usually or would you

01:00:35 ◼   ► usually have just mail on that row on its own?

01:00:38 ◼   ► Well, no, probably not.

01:00:42 ◼   ► So is that like, do you have like this temporary space on your home screen where things get

01:00:47 ◼   ► moved in and out?

01:00:48 ◼   ► Sometimes, and in fact I think what happened here is that I added those in and I added

01:00:52 ◼   ► the MLB app back, and that if I had just added the MLB app back and I had mail sticking out

01:00:58 ◼   ► in the next row all by itself, I would have had to, I could have left it there, I might

01:01:02 ◼   ► also have decided to add three things in or remove a thing. If you have to remove a thing,

01:01:09 ◼   ► do you know what it would have been from your current list of things here? Or is that too

01:01:14 ◼   ► difficult a question? I think that's too difficult a question. It's very difficult. I don't think

01:01:19 ◼   ► I would, I don't think I need two empty rows so I probably would have thought are there

01:01:22 ◼   ► some other things that are floating around that I use occasionally that I could bring

01:01:25 ◼   ► up to my home screen. Yeah I'm going through this a little bit now as you'll discover soon.

01:01:32 ◼   ► I have some spacing issues.

01:01:34 ◼   ► But your dock, your dock is,

01:01:36 ◼   ► seems pretty standard as I would expect.

01:01:39 ◼   ► You have overcast, then Safari, Twitterific, and Slack.

01:01:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, and this is a big change for me.

01:01:45 ◼   ► I mean, I didn't used to have Slack in the dock.

01:01:47 ◼   ► I didn't used to have overcast in the dock.

01:01:49 ◼   ► My dock used to be phone, mail, Safari, and Twitterific.

01:01:52 ◼   ► - So what happened there?

01:01:53 ◼   ► - Well, what happened is I realized

01:01:54 ◼   ► that the things that I use my phone for by far the most

01:01:57 ◼   ► are Slack, Twitterific, overcast, and Safari,

01:02:00 ◼   ► and they should probably be in my dock.

01:02:01 ◼   ► That makes a lot of sense.

01:02:03 ◼   ► - I also only have a second screen

01:02:05 ◼   ► and it's all just folders with stuff dumped in them.

01:02:07 ◼   ► Because I'm on the gray Hurley model,

01:02:11 ◼   ► which is, if it's not on the home screen,

01:02:12 ◼   ► I'm just searching for it, come on.

01:02:14 ◼   ► - All right, let's flip over to your iPad real quick.

01:02:18 ◼   ► - Okay.

01:02:19 ◼   ► - Take a look here.

01:02:20 ◼   ► So I guess first off,

01:02:21 ◼   ► do you think of your iPhone and iPad layouts

01:02:25 ◼   ► in relation to each other in any way?

01:02:28 ◼   ► - No.

01:02:29 ◼   ► - No, neither do I.

01:02:29 ◼   ► I'll set it up straight up front like I do not.

01:02:32 ◼   ► So there's a couple of things that I'm noticing here in contrast to your iPhone.

01:02:35 ◼   ► Although Twitterific and Slack are on the far right of the dock, which is something

01:02:38 ◼   ► that is the same on both, but I think that's a coincidence.

01:02:41 ◼   ► I've already noticed a few things that are interesting to me about this, about what you've

01:02:45 ◼   ► got going on here.

01:02:46 ◼   ► You have Calendar, not Fantastic Cal on your iPad.

01:02:50 ◼   ► Why is that?

01:02:51 ◼   ► I don't like the layout of Fantastic Cal on the iPad.

01:02:54 ◼   ► Yeah, I only like it in Split View, honestly.

01:02:57 ◼   ► I don't think that the full view is very nice.

01:03:01 ◼   ► I don't like it very much.

01:03:03 ◼   ► - I really like the weak view in calendar on the iPad.

01:03:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't like that it shows the entire month,

01:03:10 ◼   ► like it has the whole month calendar in the bottom right.

01:03:12 ◼   ► Like I'm not a big fan of the Fantastical layout either.

01:03:16 ◼   ► So you have on here a bunch of specific reading applications

01:03:20 ◼   ► like ComiXology, Marvel Unlimited,

01:03:23 ◼   ► is the SF Chronicle and Washington Post apps,

01:03:25 ◼   ► are they in newspaper?

01:03:26 ◼   ► Oh, and the New York Times, are they newspapers,

01:03:28 ◼   ► or are they like-- - Yes.

01:03:30 ◼   ► - Let me, I know, sorry, I know they are newspapers,

01:03:33 ◼   ► but I mean, is it the newspaper application,

01:03:35 ◼   ► or is it like a web, like is it an iPhone application,

01:03:38 ◼   ► that make sense, like it's not like a newsstand thing.

01:03:41 ◼   ► - It's not a, well, newsstand doesn't exist anymore,

01:03:43 ◼   ► but it's not like a digital replica of a newspaper.

01:03:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause they definitely still exist

01:03:48 ◼   ► those applications.

01:03:49 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, they're stories, so that's,

01:03:51 ◼   ► and those are the three news sources that I subscribe to,

01:03:55 ◼   ► And so I have the apps on here and I will read them

01:03:58 ◼   ► in the morning with my tea sometimes.

01:04:00 ◼   ► I got the local news from the Chronicle

01:04:01 ◼   ► and I got the Washington Post and the New York Times

01:04:03 ◼   ► and I will read them sometimes

01:04:05 ◼   ► and they send me little news alerts every now and then.

01:04:06 ◼   ► And I do most of that newspaper reading on the iPad,

01:04:11 ◼   ► usually in the morning.

01:04:13 ◼   ► So that's a good place for those.

01:04:15 ◼   ► A lot of the same apps are on here by the way, I should say,

01:04:18 ◼   ► Calendar is different, but like Photos App Store,

01:04:20 ◼   ► Find Friends, 1Password, Notes,

01:04:23 ◼   ► they're all there for the same reasons.

01:04:25 ◼   ► And in fact, you'll see Reminders isn't on here,

01:04:27 ◼   ► and that's because very rarely am I,

01:04:31 ◼   ► Reminders is my walking around somewhere,

01:04:33 ◼   ► can't need to dash something down

01:04:36 ◼   ► that I'm thinking of right away.

01:04:38 ◼   ► And that rarely ever happens when I'm in the context

01:04:41 ◼   ► of using an iPad.

01:04:42 ◼   ► And if it is, I'll just search for it,

01:04:43 ◼   ► but it's pretty rare.

01:04:44 ◼   ► So yeah, I have the two comic book reading apps,

01:04:47 ◼   ► I've got the three newspaper apps,

01:04:48 ◼   ► they're all out here on top.

01:04:50 ◼   ► - You have a weather app, Wunderstation,

01:04:52 ◼   ► I think it's probably talking to your weather station, right?

01:04:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, Wonder Station is from Weather Underground

01:04:58 ◼   ► and it's iPad only,

01:05:01 ◼   ► and it lets you connect to any Weather Underground

01:05:03 ◼   ► weather station.

01:05:04 ◼   ► So it's got my live weather data

01:05:06 ◼   ► and I can also look at like weather stations

01:05:08 ◼   ► that are near other people.

01:05:09 ◼   ► So like I can say,

01:05:11 ◼   ► this is how hot it is at my mom's house in Phoenix,

01:05:13 ◼   ► 'cause there's a weather station like 200 yards away

01:05:16 ◼   ► from where she lives.

01:05:17 ◼   ► So I can get exactly in her community,

01:05:20 ◼   ► how ridiculously hot it is.

01:05:22 ◼   ► but you had no weather app on your iPhone home screen.

01:05:25 ◼   ► - I don't.

01:05:26 ◼   ► I searched, I just yesterday was searching

01:05:28 ◼   ► for the weather app and I think in the winter

01:05:31 ◼   ► when we were having lots and lots of rain,

01:05:33 ◼   ► I think dark sky was up there.

01:05:35 ◼   ► And then I moved it off because we're getting towards spring

01:05:38 ◼   ► and I had other things that I was putting on there.

01:05:39 ◼   ► So I think dark sky probably was on there and got demoted.

01:05:42 ◼   ► And I thought about that,

01:05:43 ◼   ► maybe bringing a weather app back.

01:05:45 ◼   ► Because I do look it up and I end up searching

01:05:48 ◼   ► for the weather app, which is dumb.

01:05:49 ◼   ► - And then of course you have your two writing applications

01:05:52 ◼   ► like Scrivener and OneWriter, and these aren't on the iPhone.

01:05:55 ◼   ► I assume you're doing all the writing on your iPad,

01:05:57 ◼   ► or your Mac, right? - Yeah, I don't write

01:05:59 ◼   ► on my iPhone, and so yeah.

01:06:01 ◼   ► So Scrivener and OneWriter are on here,

01:06:02 ◼   ► and that's where I do writing on my iPad.

01:06:04 ◼   ► - Do you have them on your iPhone

01:06:06 ◼   ► so you can review something if you want to?

01:06:08 ◼   ► - They may be on there. - Okay.

01:06:11 ◼   ► - But in practice, I never-- - You don't do that.

01:06:14 ◼   ► - Open them up, yeah.

01:06:15 ◼   ► - And then the only other one here is Ferrite,

01:06:17 ◼   ► which is your audio app, your podcasting app on iOS

01:06:21 ◼   ► that you use? - Yeah, it's an audio editor

01:06:23 ◼   ► and sometimes it's on the first screen

01:06:25 ◼   ► and sometimes it's not because I go a long time

01:06:28 ◼   ► without using it 'cause I only really use it when I travel.

01:06:30 ◼   ► It happens to be there right now.

01:06:32 ◼   ► And MOB at bat, I should say is also on here,

01:06:34 ◼   ► which is great because again, scores, highlights, videos,

01:06:38 ◼   ► and it does picture in picture so I can put a game on

01:06:40 ◼   ► and have it float while I do other stuff.

01:06:43 ◼   ► And then down in the dock,

01:06:45 ◼   ► it's not that exciting, mail, messages, Safari, settings,

01:06:48 ◼   ► Twitter, if it can Slack.

01:06:49 ◼   ► No overcast by the way, because I don't listen to podcasts on my iPad. Occasionally, overcast

01:06:55 ◼   ► is on here and occasionally I will look if somebody is referencing something that was

01:06:59 ◼   ► in a podcast, I'll go and like stream it, but I've got it set to stream only and it's

01:07:03 ◼   ► just, it's there if I need to access a podcast really quickly for reference, but I don't

01:07:08 ◼   ► use it for listening.

01:07:09 ◼   ► All right, my turn. I feel like there's a little bit more peculiarness in my iPhone

01:07:15 ◼   ► home screen people seem to find that to be the case.

01:07:19 ◼   ► So I'm going to go top left as you did. I will note how much nicer the iPhone home screen

01:07:27 ◼   ► looks on the plus with those packed in icons. It looks richer, especially mine is just a

01:07:35 ◼   ► more very colourful. My background by the way will be in the show notes. I've got to

01:07:42 ◼   ► get it in now, come on, you got a Jason was right. I'm not saying I'm right, just let

01:07:47 ◼   ► me say that.

01:07:48 ◼   ► Have you started talking about your home screen yet? I missed it.

01:07:51 ◼   ► I have a wallpaper which is the Upgrading Official War Paper. I use that for my iPhone,

01:07:57 ◼   ► I'll put a link in the show notes if you want to find it. I'm very upset that you weren't

01:08:01 ◼   ► using it Jason but you did have a picture of one of your children so I guess that's

01:08:04 ◼   ► acceptable.

01:08:05 ◼   ► Sitting on the beach, yeah.

01:08:06 ◼   ► I'm going to go top left at the Relay FM app, which is our live listening app. Mostly

01:08:13 ◼   ► because I just like to see my own company logo on my iPhone on screen. Honestly, that's

01:08:18 ◼   ► the reason that's there. I use Bear. Bear is where I do the writing for all of our advertising

01:08:25 ◼   ► copy for all of the shows. All of the sponsor reads are all written in Bear. It's a markdown

01:08:29 ◼   ► text editor. Notes. Notes is where all of my notes go, whether it's just like simple

01:08:34 ◼   ► text notes or ideas for things, all of my travel documents go in there and all of my

01:08:41 ◼   ► show preparation notes. So not the documents that me and Jason share but as I'm thinking

01:08:47 ◼   ► of things to talk about throughout the week for my shows I just send all of the links

01:08:51 ◼   ► and thoughts into notes and collect them up on the day of the show to put into our show

01:08:55 ◼   ► documents which tend to be in Google Docs.

01:08:58 ◼   ► Dropbox is my file system, it's where all of my files are for everything, it all goes

01:09:03 ◼   ► in Dropbox on all devices so I can view everything that I need to. I have due which is where

01:09:10 ◼   ► I keep simple recurring reminders for things and or like if I have to go take the trash

01:09:17 ◼   ► out later on today or take a pill if I'm sick like that all goes in due because it's just

01:09:23 ◼   ► a simple way to get things to be reminded to me and due my favorite feature about due

01:09:29 ◼   ► is it keeps reminding you until you complete it.

01:09:32 ◼   ► Like it just keeps going and keeps going and keeps going

01:09:35 ◼   ► until it's completed or until the time is changed.

01:09:37 ◼   ► I like that app a lot for that.

01:09:39 ◼   ► You can stop me anytime if you have criticism

01:09:43 ◼   ► or questions, Jason.

01:09:44 ◼   ► - No.

01:09:45 ◼   ► - Music, because that's where my music is.

01:09:48 ◼   ► Canary, because that is my home security camera.

01:09:50 ◼   ► I like having that on my home screen

01:09:51 ◼   ► so I can easily jump into it.

01:09:53 ◼   ► I really, really, really like my Canary a lot.

01:09:57 ◼   ► Google maps because I find Google maps to be better than Apple maps in every

01:10:02 ◼   ► single possible way

01:10:03 ◼   ► it is so much better I find in London for point of interest and I do

01:10:08 ◼   ► check into Apple maps every now and then to make sure that I'm right on this

01:10:11 ◼   ► the point of interest data is better the information it has about businesses and

01:10:15 ◼   ► places that I'm going to is better like for example

01:10:19 ◼   ► one of my new favorite features is Google maps will show you when a place is

01:10:23 ◼   ► busy

01:10:25 ◼   ► because whether it's collecting this data from people searching for it or whatever,

01:10:29 ◼   ► however it's collecting it, it shows a little graph of where the peak times are for a restaurant

01:10:34 ◼   ► or something which I like. I have the camera app on my home screen for two reasons. One,

01:10:40 ◼   ► the camera app has always been on my home screen, right, since the original iPhone.

01:10:45 ◼   ► And I also, it serves double duty because it's a way for me to get to my photos too.

01:10:49 ◼   ► So you just tap into the camera app, I can take a picture or I can grab my photos.

01:10:53 ◼   ► Get it off.

01:10:54 ◼   ► No.

01:10:55 ◼   ► Get it off.

01:10:56 ◼   ► If it's locked you can swipe right and if it's unlocked you can swipe up and launch

01:10:59 ◼   ► it from Control Center.

01:11:00 ◼   ► Be like me.

01:11:01 ◼   ► I moved the camera away now.

01:11:03 ◼   ► I don't need it anymore.

01:11:04 ◼   ► Nope.

01:11:05 ◼   ► Nope.

01:11:06 ◼   ► Don't need it.

01:11:07 ◼   ► No, I need it.

01:11:08 ◼   ► Because I honestly, honestly, I forget about these other shortcuts and I tend to unlock

01:11:12 ◼   ► my phone and open the camera app.

01:11:13 ◼   ► Learn, Myke.

01:11:14 ◼   ► Learn.

01:11:15 ◼   ► Grow as a person.

01:11:16 ◼   ► No, double duty.

01:11:17 ◼   ► It says double duty.

01:11:18 ◼   ► You have the Photos app on your home screen.

01:11:20 ◼   ► I have the camera app on mine because I can get to the camera or the photos all within

01:11:25 ◼   ► the app.

01:11:26 ◼   ► By far the most efficient way to launch the Photos app is to buy the camera app.

01:11:29 ◼   ► That's what I find.

01:11:30 ◼   ► Sure, solid, solid rating.

01:11:32 ◼   ► Instagram!

01:11:33 ◼   ► Instagram is there.

01:11:35 ◼   ► That is a social network that I look at photos on.

01:11:39 ◼   ► Fantastical is my calendar app.

01:11:41 ◼   ► I find it to be the best calendar app.

01:11:43 ◼   ► My favorite feature about Fantastical is the natural language entry.

01:11:47 ◼   ► So even though, as I said, and it's on my iPad, we'll get to that shortly, I don't tend

01:11:52 ◼   ► to like the iPad layout in the full view so much.

01:11:55 ◼   ► I can't use anything else because I need the natural language entry for events.

01:12:01 ◼   ► Pcalc.

01:12:02 ◼   ► I love Pcalc.

01:12:04 ◼   ► It is my favorite Calendar application, Calculator application.

01:12:09 ◼   ► Pcalc has a couple of features that I really like a lot that other Calculator apps do not

01:12:15 ◼   ► so it's the one that I go for. I love it too, I just don't use a calculator on my phone

01:12:20 ◼   ► enough to have it on my home screen. I do a lot, that's why it's on my home screen.

01:12:25 ◼   ► I use the calculator on my phone a lot, a lot, and so this is my one of choice. I have

01:12:31 ◼   ► messages there because I get messages like Jason. You've got a one. I have a one. I have

01:12:37 ◼   ► Slack right there next to messages. Do you notice there is not completely but there is

01:12:44 ◼   ► some grouping of things. So camera and Instagram are next to each other, Bear and Notes are

01:12:49 ◼   ► next to each other, Messages and Slack are next to each other. They are grouped purposefully.

01:12:55 ◼   ► Because that's kind of just where that's how that works out in my brain.

01:12:58 ◼   ► Todoist is my task management system of choice right now, which I am very very happy with.

01:13:07 ◼   ► One password is where all my passwords go. Narwhal is my Reddit application. I now subscribe

01:13:13 ◼   ► to like three or four subreddits, which I will go to every now and then. I never see

01:13:20 ◼   ► the reddit homepage because I don't ever want to, it's just not the way that I view reddit

01:13:25 ◼   ► and there's just a few little communities that I enjoy that tend to be pretty okay and

01:13:31 ◼   ► narwhal is why I do them, I think narwhal is the best iOS reddit app that I've found

01:13:35 ◼   ► and used. It's a really really nicely made app. Trello, Trello is an application that

01:13:41 ◼   ► me and Steven use for a few things, with Relay FM related, it's a really nice way to kind

01:13:47 ◼   ► of visually look at things, right, like to have this like visual, I keep saying visually

01:13:52 ◼   ► look and visual view, I can't think of another way to say it, but like a visual representation

01:13:57 ◼   ► of data.

01:13:58 ◼   ► It's a card, it's a card interface, and we actually use this, I use this in a couple

01:14:03 ◼   ► different places, including for the non-profit that I'm on the board for, that it's useful

01:14:07 ◼   ► to have like cards in different stacks and move them around, and it's a good organization

01:14:11 ◼   ► system and it does have a visual representation instead of it just being

01:14:15 ◼   ► kind of like an outline or text in a document it's little cards that you can

01:14:20 ◼   ► move around spatially. And I have workflow because I am an automator not a

01:14:26 ◼   ► programmer. I settled on this Jason as the thing I was talking to Casey about on

01:14:31 ◼   ► analog. I'm not a programmer I'm an automator. I don't use workflow enough to

01:14:37 ◼   ► build workflows to have it visible.

01:14:40 ◼   ► 'Cause I use it mostly using existing workflows

01:14:43 ◼   ► that I've built in Share Extensions.

01:14:46 ◼   ► So I just haven't. - Yeah, me too.

01:14:48 ◼   ► But both workflow and IFTTT are on my home screen right now

01:14:52 ◼   ► and they have been for a while

01:14:53 ◼   ► because I am encouraging myself to use them more.

01:14:57 ◼   ► So if I have them on my home screen,

01:14:59 ◼   ► it is a constant reminder for me to be in there

01:15:01 ◼   ► and tinkering and playing around

01:15:03 ◼   ► as I'm trying to get better at this

01:15:05 ◼   ► and think about this stuff more.

01:15:06 ◼   ► So those two applications are on my home screen right now as a way to encourage more activity

01:15:13 ◼   ► in them.

01:15:15 ◼   ► I then have Toggle, the Toggle application, which I have there for some of the reports

01:15:20 ◼   ► and the manual entry stuff because I use my workflow triggers for those.

01:15:25 ◼   ► But I used a toggle app for some report stuff and then the YouTube Studio app which is like

01:15:30 ◼   ► a creators application.

01:15:32 ◼   ► So the issue that I'm having right now is I don't like that those two apps are just

01:15:35 ◼   ► kind of out there on their own. But eventually I will move, I would definitely move off IFTTT

01:15:42 ◼   ► from my home screen and I will probably move, well I will move either toggle or the YouTube

01:15:49 ◼   ► Creator Studio application to the second screen. One of those doesn't need to be there all

01:15:53 ◼   ► the time so we'll shove off but I'm not sure what one that's going to be. Then my

01:15:59 ◼   ► My doc is Tweetbot, Airmail, Chrome and Overcast.

01:16:05 ◼   ► Tweetbot is one of the things I do on my phone the most, is viewing Twitter.

01:16:11 ◼   ► Chrome is my web browser, so that goes there, because I also surf net a lot on my phone.

01:16:17 ◼   ► And Overcast, the majority of audio that I listen to on my phone, which is what it's

01:16:21 ◼   ► a device for, is there.

01:16:22 ◼   ► It's all in there.

01:16:23 ◼   ► So I go into Overcast and get that.

01:16:26 ◼   ► mail is only there because mail has always been in my dock because maybe slack should

01:16:31 ◼   ► be there instead if it was based purely on what the phone is used for right but email

01:16:36 ◼   ► has always had a place there and it works fine for me having it there. You'll also notice

01:16:42 ◼   ► I don't I have the the badge there on the messages aside from slack and todoist nothing

01:16:50 ◼   ► else on my home screen gets badges. They're the only things there that will get badges

01:16:56 ◼   ► on my home screen.

01:16:57 ◼   ► Solid.

01:16:58 ◼   ► Yep. Because I don't like badges. Do you have any other comments or questions about my home

01:17:03 ◼   ► screen or are we good?

01:17:06 ◼   ► I think we're good. Chrome, I don't know if I knew that you used Chrome or not, but that's

01:17:11 ◼   ► fine. People use Chrome.

01:17:12 ◼   ► I like it. I like it. I use Chrome on their desktop and so I use it on iOS because then

01:17:17 ◼   ► all my information sinks over.

01:17:19 ◼   ► make sense. Then my iPad, again I'll put a link in the show notes to where I got the

01:17:25 ◼   ► wallpaper, it's one of Steven's photos of one of his many iMacs. So my iPad, okay so

01:17:31 ◼   ► I've used a 12.9 here because both of my iPads differ, but for no specific reason, because

01:17:39 ◼   ► I really don't tap on the icons on my home screen of my iPad very much, and therefore

01:17:49 ◼   ► I basically have everything I use on my iPad on the first screen.

01:17:54 ◼   ► Everything that's on the second screen are apps that will eventually be added to folders

01:17:57 ◼   ► or deleted.

01:17:58 ◼   ► They're like apps that I'm trying out.

01:18:00 ◼   ► I basically have everything on my home screen of my iPad because I launch everything typically

01:18:07 ◼   ► from Spotlight.

01:18:09 ◼   ► So there aren't, I mean basically it's all of the apps that you've seen already are there

01:18:14 ◼   ► and then all of the stuff that's in folders is in stuff that's in folders on my second

01:18:18 ◼   ► and third screen of my iPhone or you know, my second screen of my iPhone.

01:18:22 ◼   ► Like it's all.

01:18:23 ◼   ► It's all the same apps, right,

01:18:26 ◼   ► but they're just in slightly different configurations or hidden away.

01:18:28 ◼   ► But I don't really know where anything is on my iPad.

01:18:33 ◼   ► Like it's not because I never tap the icons.

01:18:35 ◼   ► I'm always opening from a spotlight.

01:18:39 ◼   ► So for me, like sense, I just it's it's it's just everything.

01:18:43 ◼   ► It's all on the one screen.

01:18:45 ◼   ► and my 9.7 is organized completely differently for no reason. It's just where it got organized

01:18:51 ◼   ► to when I set it up. Because I always have keyboards attached to my iPads and I use Spotlight

01:18:58 ◼   ► to always open stuff. I mean, if it's not on my home screen on my iPhone, I am using

01:19:04 ◼   ► Spotlight too, but I do tap the icons on the home screen on my iPhone. So yeah, that's

01:19:09 ◼   ► kind of my devices. Do you have any thoughts on my iPad there?

01:19:13 ◼   ► No, I think it's interesting that you're so search-centric on the iPad. I'm not, because

01:19:18 ◼   ► I'm not always—at a keyboard, in fact, like I think I've said on this show, I'm like

01:19:22 ◼   ► 90% of my iPad use is not with a keyboard attached, because I'm sitting in bed or on

01:19:27 ◼   ► the couch or whatever, and I'm just—I've just got my iPad there, and so I want the

01:19:31 ◼   ► stuff—I want quick access to the stuff that I use all the time, and it's mostly reading

01:19:34 ◼   ► and Twitter and Slack and stuff like that, and web browser.

01:19:39 ◼   ► So they are our home screens and I look forward to people sending us theirs which tends to

01:19:44 ◼   ► be what happens when you show off your home screen.

01:19:46 ◼   ► Ah.

01:19:47 ◼   ► So there you go.

01:19:48 ◼   ► I dread it but that's okay send them in.

01:19:50 ◼   ► I don't dread it I like seeing it.

01:19:53 ◼   ► I also will not look forward to but await, I will await the criticism.

01:20:00 ◼   ► Judgment yeah people are judgy.

01:20:02 ◼   ► Yeah that we will receive for this.

01:20:05 ◼   ► Yeah I don't want to hear about it.

01:20:06 ◼   ► That's just how it is.

01:20:07 ◼   ► Don't email me.

01:20:08 ◼   ► gonna email you. Actually don't email us, actually. You can tweet at us, that's fine.

01:20:12 ◼   ► Don't email, it's fine. Send tweets.

01:20:14 ◼   ► No, I mean, I literally, if you're going to tell me I'm doing it wrong, I literally don't

01:20:22 ◼   ► want to hear it because I don't care, because I'm doing it exactly right for me.

01:20:27 ◼   ► Is that why you tell me I should change the camera app?

01:20:30 ◼   ► Well, I mean, I see what you're, I will, the reason I tell you that, Myke, is because I

01:20:35 ◼   ► I was you, I was learn from my,

01:20:38 ◼   ► I went through that process.

01:20:40 ◼   ► I used to have only the camera app and I said,

01:20:42 ◼   ► oh, well I can get to the photos from the camera app.

01:20:45 ◼   ► And then I realized that with the swipe on the lock screen

01:20:48 ◼   ► and it being in the control center,

01:20:50 ◼   ► it was dumb to have the camera app on there

01:20:52 ◼   ► and it got demoted.

01:20:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, but I know that. - So I'm saying be like me.

01:20:55 ◼   ► - Right, I know that those things are there.

01:20:57 ◼   ► - I know that they're there. - It's not how I work, Jason.

01:20:59 ◼   ► - I know, but I have converted

01:21:01 ◼   ► and I can tell you it's a nice place over here.

01:21:04 ◼   ► But it's all I'd be doing. No. I'm not gonna do it. No one can change my mind on this.

01:21:12 ◼   ► I am resolved to it.

01:21:13 ◼   ► Myke was wrong.

01:21:16 ◼   ► Myke was making a peculiar choice.

01:21:17 ◼   ► Oh, you couldn't resist, could you?

01:21:19 ◼   ► Is the new, is the new, uh, hashtag.

01:21:22 ◼   ► Myke, #MykeWasMakingAWearChoice.

01:21:24 ◼   ► Myke could be Myke-ing.

01:21:25 ◼   ► Myke, it's gotta be Myke-ing.

01:21:27 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Eero. These days, everything in our homes requires an

01:21:31 ◼   ► internet connection and we're increasingly looking at streaming services as well.

01:21:36 ◼   ► Right, so we have Netflix, Hulu and Spotify for our home entertainment

01:21:40 ◼   ► and our devices that don't play entertainment still all need wi-fi. So like our speakers,

01:21:46 ◼   ► thermostats, light bulbs, maybe you have a front door lock, our security cameras, I mentioned that

01:21:53 ◼   ► you know my canary security camera that needs wi-fi. We were cleaning yesterday and I accidentally

01:22:01 ◼   ► turned off a switch that was connected to my router, my Wi-Fi router.

01:22:10 ◼   ► And I couldn't turn my lights on and off.

01:22:14 ◼   ► We didn't know, right?

01:22:16 ◼   ► And then we couldn't turn the lights on and off.

01:22:18 ◼   ► So that was quite funny.

01:22:19 ◼   ► Wi-Fi is the foundation for all of this stuff.

01:22:21 ◼   ► Our homes need to be connected now for them to work.

01:22:23 ◼   ► But Wi-Fi can be inconsistent, slow, and unresponsive.

01:22:27 ◼   ► Basically it's a little bit broken.

01:22:29 ◼   ► To get the best possible connection in our homes today you need a distributed system

01:22:32 ◼   ► that can give you a connection all over the house.

01:22:35 ◼   ► This has either been super expensive to do, tricky or a little bit awkward in the past.

01:22:40 ◼   ► This is what Eero is all about.

01:22:42 ◼   ► Eero lets you install an enterprise grade wifi system in your home in just a few minutes.

01:22:47 ◼   ► This isn't just like an extender, each Eero has two radios inside.

01:22:51 ◼   ► It keeps your connection fast and everything in sync and this is the best part all on one

01:22:55 ◼   ► network name.

01:22:56 ◼   ► So you can have these devices all over your home but it's not all different networks that your

01:23:00 ◼   ► phone has to be constantly switching between like you go upstairs and you drop connection

01:23:04 ◼   ► because you're trying to move from one to the other. It's not that. That's not how the Eros

01:23:07 ◼   ► work. Everything is on one network. You simply download the Eros app on your iOS or Android

01:23:13 ◼   ► devices. It walks you through the setup process and then you will have access to this great little

01:23:18 ◼   ► app which gives you parental controls and all that stuff and that's how you update the firmware of

01:23:22 ◼   ► of your Eros everything is done for their lovely app. You can manage your network from

01:23:26 ◼   ► the palm of your hand, you'll know how many devices are connected which is really useful

01:23:30 ◼   ► to know as well as the internet speed that you're getting from your service provider.

01:23:35 ◼   ► The average house in the US is easily covered by 2 or 3 Eros, they sell them in packs so

01:23:40 ◼   ► a 3 pack is a good starting point and you can return any of them. If you buy a 3 pack

01:23:45 ◼   ► and you only need 2 you can always return your Eros, they have a 30 day money back guarantee

01:23:50 ◼   ► and if you live in a large space you can get a ton of them. You can add up to 10 in total

01:23:54 ◼   ► if you want.

01:23:55 ◼   ► Eero is the original whole home wifi system and they are just celebrating their first

01:24:00 ◼   ► birthday so to celebrate Eero is permanently lowering the price. So now you can get an

01:24:07 ◼   ► Eero 3 pack for $399 which is $100 off or a 2 pack for $299 which is $50 off the original

01:24:14 ◼   ► price and to get this all you need to do is go to ero.com or Best Buy or Amazon

01:24:20 ◼   ► same price everywhere so we're not doing codes of ero anymore because they want

01:24:24 ◼   ► to give you the same price from wherever you want to get it so you can go to ero.com

01:24:27 ◼   ► Best Buy or Amazon to get ero at its new lower price thank you so much to

01:24:33 ◼   ► ero for their continued support of this show and Relay FM. Ask upgrade time

01:24:42 ◼   ► Matthew wants to know, I know, I really gave it some today, what 5k app is Jason

01:24:49 ◼   ► using? You mentioned last week that you were used doing 5k training again. I'm

01:24:54 ◼   ► running again, yeah, I'm using an app called Run 5k, which is, there are two of

01:24:59 ◼   ► them, it's the one with the dark icon, I will put a link in the show

01:25:05 ◼   ► notes. It's not perfect but it's okay. I used to use Couch to 5k which is good

01:25:14 ◼   ► because it's got like some pre-recorded audio whereas this is using text-to-

01:25:18 ◼   ► speech so it's like the Siri voice is telling you to run so it's like run now.

01:25:23 ◼   ► I hate that, I hate that. But the thing I like about it is it is a

01:25:29 ◼   ► pre-programmed course basically of like day one you do this or the three run

01:25:36 ◼   ► three days a week and it's like week one day two week one day three and you just

01:25:41 ◼   ► say I'm doing this now and it tells you warm up for five minutes and then it

01:25:44 ◼   ► says okay now run and then it says now walk now run and you just do it and it

01:25:49 ◼   ► great it gradually raises up your your running ability so I've done this a

01:25:55 ◼   ► a couple of times before, and then the winter comes

01:25:58 ◼   ► and I stopped running and now I'm back at it.

01:26:00 ◼   ► - It's like a nice Apple Watch app as well.

01:26:02 ◼   ► - The Apple Watch app is way better.

01:26:04 ◼   ► It's now using, as far as I can tell,

01:26:06 ◼   ► it's using the watchOS 3 stuff that lets it stay forward.

01:26:09 ◼   ► One of the problems with a lot of these Apple Watch apps

01:26:11 ◼   ► on these things were it wouldn't stick around,

01:26:14 ◼   ► or you had to change the settings to make it stick around.

01:26:16 ◼   ► And then watchOS 3, they added the ability

01:26:18 ◼   ► for fitness apps to stay in the foreground

01:26:20 ◼   ► when they're active.

01:26:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, it looks like from the screenshots,

01:26:23 ◼   ► it's also pulling the heart rate information,

01:26:25 ◼   ► which I think is an OS3 thing as well.

01:26:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I can, while I'm running,

01:26:30 ◼   ► I can flip open my wrist.

01:26:33 ◼   ► I've flipped the Apple Watch over while I'm running

01:26:35 ◼   ► and look at it and it's showing me how,

01:26:38 ◼   ► basically that's the, oh God,

01:26:39 ◼   ► how much longer do I have to keep doing this?

01:26:42 ◼   ► Or, oh God, how much longer do I have

01:26:45 ◼   ► until I have to start running again?

01:26:47 ◼   ► But it's very useful to have that

01:26:48 ◼   ► 'cause I don't have to pull my phone out of my pocket

01:26:50 ◼   ► to do that.

01:26:52 ◼   ► and it'll just, and it gives me audio cues

01:26:55 ◼   ► over my music or podcast that I listen to when I'm running.

01:26:58 ◼   ► So it's not the best app in the world,

01:27:01 ◼   ► but I tried a bunch of them

01:27:02 ◼   ► and this is the one that I've settled on.

01:27:04 ◼   ► - So I really like the way the UI looks.

01:27:06 ◼   ► It looks very nice and clean.

01:27:07 ◼   ► I don't like the look of the icon though.

01:27:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's not great.

01:27:11 ◼   ► It syncs with HealthKit too, which is nice.

01:27:12 ◼   ► So all of my exercises actually show up

01:27:15 ◼   ► in the fitness app and stuff, which is cool.

01:27:17 ◼   ► That's what I want.

01:27:17 ◼   ► I want to get credit for this everywhere.

01:27:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, no doubt.

01:27:22 ◼   ► You're gonna do it, you want it everywhere, all over the place.

01:27:24 ◼   ► Exercise, you want all that, you want to close those rings.

01:27:27 ◼   ► - Damn right.

01:27:29 ◼   ► - All right, so next up we have from,

01:27:33 ◼   ► I'm gonna say Nantles, Nantles, N-A-N-T-L-Y-S.

01:27:37 ◼   ► Just read Jason's AirPods simplicity article.

01:27:41 ◼   ► Do you think a spinning base, so the little metal part

01:27:44 ◼   ► on the bottom of the AirPods could be a way

01:27:47 ◼   ► to include volume control?

01:27:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, it adds complexity to the design.

01:27:54 ◼   ► And so that's the question.

01:27:55 ◼   ► I'm sure Apple considered something like that.

01:27:56 ◼   ► I wrote a piece for Macworld about how the AirPods

01:28:00 ◼   ► show the value of simplicity of Apple's design,

01:28:03 ◼   ► but also how it can be frustrating.

01:28:04 ◼   ► And you can add complications,

01:28:06 ◼   ► but be careful what you ask for because somebody,

01:28:10 ◼   ► I think Neil Seibert tweeted out like the instruction manual

01:28:14 ◼   ► for the Bragi Dash.

01:28:17 ◼   ► And it's like, you know, tap twice to do this,

01:28:19 ◼   ► tap three times like yeah I have a problem with the criticism of that like

01:28:23 ◼   ► how many of those features are built into a multitude of clicks on the

01:28:29 ◼   ► clicker of the iPhone headset I would say like a vast majority of those are

01:28:36 ◼   ► built in to some applications? No because you have a lot of like it's actually having you do

01:28:42 ◼   ► clicks to move modes and stuff like from from the the this fitness mode to this

01:28:48 ◼   ► fitness mode and like over here on the left, you do this.

01:28:51 ◼   ► And on the right, you do that.

01:28:52 ◼   ► Well, you don't have to, but my point was

01:28:54 ◼   ► that once you go past the simplicity of a couple of clicks,

01:28:58 ◼   ► you are opening the door to miss clicks,

01:29:01 ◼   ► misunderstandings by, you know, you click three times,

01:29:05 ◼   ► but it only went twice or you, you know, you, you only,

01:29:08 ◼   ► you wanted to do two clicks, but it only registered once.

01:29:11 ◼   ► It adds the more complexity it adds, it adds more power,

01:29:13 ◼   ► but it also adds more complexity and that can be not as good.

01:29:17 ◼   ► And I, you know, again, I'm not saying like,

01:29:19 ◼   ► it's not unreasonable that it looks like that,

01:29:22 ◼   ► but it does show you that the ramp up to explain to somebody

01:29:25 ◼   ► how they use their headphones is more

01:29:28 ◼   ► when you add stuff like that

01:29:29 ◼   ► and you risk misunderstanding it.

01:29:32 ◼   ► So- - Yeah, that makes sense.

01:29:34 ◼   ► - It's like, you know, hey, I wrote in my review

01:29:37 ◼   ► that I wish that it did triple click

01:29:38 ◼   ► or had different commands for the left and the right.

01:29:40 ◼   ► But I also appreciate the fact that everything you do

01:29:44 ◼   ► that does that, you're adding the potential for users

01:29:46 ◼   ► to misunderstand them, or you're hiding those features away

01:29:49 ◼   ► and turning them off by default,

01:29:50 ◼   ► in which case, why did we do all that work

01:29:52 ◼   ► to have them be turned off by default?

01:29:54 ◼   ► And Siri has its issues too, don't get me started.

01:29:56 ◼   ► But this is an interesting idea, I thought about that for,

01:30:01 ◼   ► could you put something that's touch sensitive in there,

01:30:03 ◼   ► or could you put something

01:30:04 ◼   ► that's a physical moving something,

01:30:06 ◼   ► like the Apple Watch has the little spinning crown,

01:30:11 ◼   ► and do something where you could just grab the tip

01:30:14 ◼   ► of the AirPod and turn it a little bit to adjust the volume.

01:30:19 ◼   ► And that would be great.

01:30:21 ◼   ► I hope Apple is considering simple gestures

01:30:24 ◼   ► that would allow you to do stuff

01:30:25 ◼   ► that you probably don't wanna go to another device to do,

01:30:27 ◼   ► like adjusting the volume to make it a little quieter

01:30:30 ◼   ► or a little louder.

01:30:31 ◼   ► Could you do that through some simple gesture

01:30:33 ◼   ► and a spin gesture, whether it was a real spinning base

01:30:36 ◼   ► or whether it was just kind of a touch sensitive area

01:30:39 ◼   ► that you feel like you're turning a volume knob,

01:30:42 ◼   ► even though you're not.

01:30:43 ◼   ► either way could be a great user interface interaction that would make a lot more sense

01:30:48 ◼   ► than how can we stack in a bunch of different button tap sequences in order to increase

01:30:54 ◼   ► the volume because I don't think that would be good at all.

01:30:58 ◼   ► Sam asked, "Is it possible to connect a webcam to an iOS device and be able to view or record

01:31:04 ◼   ► the video?" I don't think so. I don't think so. I've never come across this. I've never

01:31:10 ◼   ► come across it Sam I'm afraid I don't think you can do that. The answer is you buy a Wi-Fi

01:31:15 ◼   ► webcam and it's attached to a cloud service and you do it that way but like to directly

01:31:20 ◼   ► connect to an iOS device and view and record video I don't think this is something that

01:31:26 ◼   ► you can do. I would say just going back one question on the AirPods thing because I just

01:31:32 ◼   ► thought, you know like having that little spinny base I think the problem would be I

01:31:35 ◼   ► would be like flicking out my ears all the time. Like I'd be kind of turn it up and like

01:31:39 ◼   ► just knock it straight out of my ear. Could be, but I mean I have to reach up there

01:31:44 ◼   ► and double tap on it to invoke Siri or to play and pause.

01:31:48 ◼   ► Yeah, but tapping is like you're forcing it into the ear. If you're twisting it, you're

01:31:52 ◼   ► making a motion onto a part where the center of gravity might go off.

01:31:58 ◼   ► I'm skeptical of that, but that's why we, you know, if we're Apple product designers,

01:32:03 ◼   ► that's why we product test that, right? Yeah.

01:32:07 ◼   ► Rodrigo asked, "Do either of you use the Logic Remote app on your iPhone or iPad when

01:32:12 ◼   ► editing?" No. I forget this thing exists all the time, and I'm fine without it.

01:32:17 ◼   ► It strikes me as being something that is built for music producers, who want to have that

01:32:24 ◼   ► remote to slide their little volumes up and down as they're listening to a mix of something.

01:32:31 ◼   ► It seems to me the stuff that's on it is not stuff that I find valuable at all.

01:32:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's not really like the touch bar or anything,

01:32:39 ◼   ► you know, where like they could be shortcuts there or stuff.

01:32:43 ◼   ► I don't think it's- - I've tried it a few times.

01:32:45 ◼   ► It's possible that it could do something that I would use,

01:32:47 ◼   ► but at this point it does not do anything that I could use

01:32:51 ◼   ► to be more efficient at editing podcasts, unfortunately.

01:32:56 ◼   ► And it's not for us, right?

01:32:58 ◼   ► I mean, I think it really is built

01:33:00 ◼   ► for a very specific professional music producer audience.

01:33:04 ◼   ► Kevin asked, "How many caffeinated beverages do you have a day?"

01:33:07 ◼   ► - Oh, well, I have a cup or two of tea

01:33:16 ◼   ► and often a can of soda.

01:33:21 ◼   ► I'm trying to reduce my caffeine intake,

01:33:24 ◼   ► but it is also a very helpful thing for me.

01:33:27 ◼   ► But something like that.

01:33:30 ◼   ► We make a pot of tea in the morning,

01:33:32 ◼   ► which makes essentially like two small cups of tea for me.

01:33:35 ◼   ► And then I will usually have a soda either with lunch or in the afternoon.

01:33:39 ◼   ► And that's about it. About you.

01:33:41 ◼   ► Uh, Kathy wants to know what kind of tea?

01:33:44 ◼   ► Oh, just, uh, English breakfast, Irish breakfast, just black,

01:33:49 ◼   ► black caffeinated tea.

01:33:50 ◼   ► I have one or sometimes two, not every day,

01:33:55 ◼   ► two cups of coffee a day. That's all I have caffeine wise.

01:33:59 ◼   ► that tends to be it. I don't drink soda very much, I enjoy it but just don't drink it very

01:34:03 ◼   ► much. Like not on like a daily basis. I used to but not anymore. But yeah I'll have at

01:34:10 ◼   ► least one cup of coffee in the morning and then sometimes one in the afternoon before

01:34:14 ◼   ► I start recording shows. I've had two coffees today for example.

01:34:17 ◼   ► Yeah there you go. And I've had two small cups of tea.

01:34:22 ◼   ► And finally today Brent wrote in and said "I have now listened to Upgrade, ATP, Cortex

01:34:27 ◼   ► and hello internet twice what should I re-listen to when I'm all caught up on my shows?

01:34:33 ◼   ► So two just very simple suggestions Brent, just go to relay.fm/shows or the incomparable.com/shows

01:34:41 ◼   ► and there are lots of shows there that you can pick from and considering to the shows

01:34:46 ◼   ► that you already listened to Brent I think there will be, they're all good shows Brent

01:34:50 ◼   ► and I think that there will be reference acknowledged.

01:34:55 ◼   ► Well, seeing that he listens to ATP and Cortex, I immediately think that he should probably

01:34:59 ◼   ► listen to Reconcilable Differences.

01:35:01 ◼   ► Yep.

01:35:02 ◼   ► Yep, I think so.

01:35:03 ◼   ► I think that's a good show.

01:35:06 ◼   ► You know, yeah, all the great shows is the answer.

01:35:09 ◼   ► Relay and Incomparable have shows.

01:35:11 ◼   ► It depends on what strikes your fancy.

01:35:14 ◼   ► I keep hearing from people who have been listening to Total Party Kill, which is our D&D podcast,

01:35:19 ◼   ► because they think it's fun and they will re-listen to it, which blows me away because

01:35:23 ◼   ► I participated and then edited some of the episodes and have not listened since, but

01:35:28 ◼   ► people go back and listen to those again. And I'll put in a plug for the Incomparable

01:35:32 ◼   ► Game Show because it is incredibly fun and there's some episodes there that you can listen

01:35:36 ◼   ► to. It's not a huge back catalogue, but it's okay. And yeah, so those are mine. What do

01:35:41 ◼   ► you have?

01:35:42 ◼   ► I will make one specific recommendation to a show that I have just come across, which

01:35:46 ◼   ► is a very popular show and is like 347 episodes in and I knew existed but never listened to

01:35:51 ◼   ► to it, but I started listening to it and I love it.

01:35:54 ◼   ► And it's my brother, my brother and me.

01:35:56 ◼   ► And it's the McElroy brothers who you may know from Polygon

01:35:59 ◼   ► or from the Adventure Zone or a million other podcasts.

01:36:02 ◼   ► They just made a web TV show on Seeso,

01:36:07 ◼   ► which is my brother and my brother and me turned to TV.

01:36:10 ◼   ► I have enjoyed their work on their video stuff

01:36:13 ◼   ► that they've been playing on for a while.

01:36:15 ◼   ► I'm a big fan of like,

01:36:18 ◼   ► I'm a big fan of Carboys and Monster Factory

01:36:22 ◼   ► and Touch the Skyrim and all of the silly,

01:36:24 ◼   ► fun video game related stuff that they make,

01:36:27 ◼   ► so I decided to check out My Brother, My Brother and Me

01:36:29 ◼   ► and I am already hooked on it.

01:36:31 ◼   ► I'm doing like what I did for the Flop House

01:36:33 ◼   ► and I listened to one episode,

01:36:35 ◼   ► then I went back and listened to a bunch.

01:36:37 ◼   ► Now I'm going back further and listening through,

01:36:39 ◼   ► so I'm enjoying that a lot,

01:36:42 ◼   ► so I recommend My Brother, My Brother and Me.

01:36:44 ◼   ► That is, I'm gonna say right now, Jason,

01:36:47 ◼   ► It's gonna be my early pick, I think, for podcasts.

01:36:52 ◼   ► - Podcast of the year?

01:36:53 ◼   ► - Podcast of the year, yeah.

01:36:54 ◼   ► It's my early pick for "Upgradey."

01:36:56 ◼   ► - Well, you've made Brian Hamilton very happy

01:36:58 ◼   ► 'cause he loves that podcast.

01:36:59 ◼   ► - I mentioned this show on analog

01:37:02 ◼   ► and I've had a few people already today tell me

01:37:05 ◼   ► how excited they are that I listen to this show as well.

01:37:08 ◼   ► It's funny.

01:37:09 ◼   ► I love it when that sort of stuff happens,

01:37:10 ◼   ► but I feel it too.

01:37:11 ◼   ► Like when somebody that you listen to

01:37:14 ◼   ► says that they listen to another show that you like,

01:37:16 ◼   ► like oh crossing the street so I'm I'm listening to the adventure zone a little

01:37:20 ◼   ► bit now and that that's sort of my that's gonna be my entry into macarola

01:37:25 ◼   ► yeah I think if you're enjoying I I expect I will move to the adventure

01:37:29 ◼   ► zone soon I reckon if you enjoy that you probably enjoy my brother my brother and

01:37:33 ◼   ► me because the macarola comedy is the same everywhere right like they they

01:37:40 ◼   ► have a style of comedy which if you enjoy you will probably enjoy anything

01:37:44 ◼   ► thing that they do and I think it all comes from my brother my brother and me

01:37:49 ◼   ► because I think that's the thing that they've been doing together for the

01:37:51 ◼   ► longest they're like as I said a 347 episodes in it's a very long-running

01:37:56 ◼   ► show so I expect that a lot of it came from from that so I reckon if you like

01:38:03 ◼   ► it if you like that if you like the adventure so you'll probably quite enjoy

01:38:07 ◼   ► enjoy that one too give it a give it a go give it a go all right thank you so

01:38:14 ◼   ► Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Upgrade. If you want to send in questions

01:38:18 ◼   ► for me and Jason to answer on the show, send them in with the hashtag #askupgrade. I feel

01:38:23 ◼   ► like I need some kind of better system to request questions for the beginning and how

01:38:27 ◼   ► they will be differentiated, but I will work that out later. Just tweet them to me, I am

01:38:32 ◼   ► @imike, for a question. You would like me to ask Jason to begin the show, and then once

01:38:38 ◼   ► I've got a sense of if that's going to be a thing, maybe I'll work out a secondary hashtag

01:38:43 ◼   ► for that. Who knows Jason Snell. But if you ask a question, I want to ask him, you'll

01:38:48 ◼   ► be credited in the beginning of the show as asking the question. So go ahead and send

01:38:53 ◼   ► those to me over Twitter. Indicate to me that it's some kind of question for Jason. I don't

01:38:58 ◼   ► know how you do this. It's up to you, Upgradients, to help me shape this as a thing. You can

01:39:03 ◼   ► find Jason online at TheIncomparable.com and SixColors.com and he is @JSnell on Twitter,

01:39:09 ◼   ► S-N-E-double L. Of course Jason hosts as well as this show a fine selection of shows at

01:39:14 ◼   ► Real AFM including Clockwise, Free Agents, and Liftoff. I got them all right?

01:39:20 ◼   ► I think so.

01:39:21 ◼   ► I think so. Who knows? All the great shows. Thanks to our sponsors this week, Eero, Fresh

01:39:27 ◼   ► Books, and Encapsula. Most of all, thank you for listening and we'll be back next time.

01:39:32 ◼   ► Until then, say goodbye Jason Snow.

01:39:35 ◼   ► Still cloudy here Myke.

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