133: You're an Empty Row Person


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 133.

00:00:13   Today's show is brought to you very kindly by Freshbooks, Eero, and Encapsula.

00:00:17   My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:21   Hey, Jason Snell.

00:00:22   Hey, Myke Hurley, how are you?

00:00:23   Good, I went all ascent on the end of that introduction there.

00:00:26   I decided to just keep it going, keep that...

00:00:28   I appreciate your commu... I appreciate your communication skills Myke Harley!

00:00:34   Anytime Jason Snow! So how is it going over there in California today Mr. Snow?

00:00:38   You know, a little foggy. It's like a just a just a spring like early spring day basically.

00:00:44   And uh going fine, going good. Kids are at school,

00:00:47   upgrade is on, everything's right with the world.

00:00:50   I had lunch with a friend of mine uh a couple of days ago and they're an upgrade listener

00:00:54   and they were mentioning how the beginning of the episode always makes them laugh.

00:00:58   Just as it tends to be something along the lines of either me or you talking about the weather

00:01:03   or making a comment about how upgrade is the start of the week.

00:01:06   - Yep, every time. - It's Monday.

00:01:09   - It's like we've become our, yeah, it's become our thing, I guess.

00:01:13   'Cause you ask me, like, how is it going over there?

00:01:16   And I'm like, uh, I have a window I can look out and see, and the answer is light gray today.

00:01:23   And so I'll tell you what, here is a here is a thought here.

00:01:27   We have an army of up gradients out there in the world.

00:01:31   We do are full of creative ideas.

00:01:34   So maybe we should petition the up gradients to tweet at me and you for suggestions

00:01:39   on how we can mix up our little preamble before the follow up,

00:01:43   like our a little opening section here, our introduction to the show.

00:01:47   Maybe we can get some suggestions on people, some little quick little ice

00:01:50   breakers or something that me and you can do to begin the episode every week.

00:01:53   Great idea. So you can tweet at me or Jason.

00:01:56   The welcome message of the week.

00:01:59   Yeah. So instead of saying "How's it going over there?" you can say...

00:02:03   I give you a little question or something, you know, and then you answer that question.

00:02:07   That's a good one. Send me questions at iMyke, i-m-y-k-e,

00:02:12   that I can ask Jason every Monday morning, and that can be a way for us to start off the show in the future.

00:02:18   Beautiful. So let's get into follow-up. In Ask Upgrade last week,

00:02:22   Last week we filled out a question from Robbie who asked about how to clean his nylon Apple

00:02:27   watch band and I suggested soap and a sponge of course Robbie but apparently Robbie wrote

00:02:33   in as requested to let us know how his cleaning process went.

00:02:37   Apparently Apple support documentation because of course I should have thought of this there

00:02:40   is a kbase article on how to clean watch straps.

00:02:45   Their documents recommend using a lightly dampened lint free cloth as I'm sure only

00:02:51   Robby exists in the white world of Johnny Ive in his white room.

00:02:55   And didn't Robby say that he knew for a fact that a damp lint-free cloth would not

00:03:00   solve his horrendously dirtied band?

00:03:03   I think so.

00:03:04   But he sent me the link because it says, categorically, not to use soap in that document.

00:03:09   However, Robby wrote in this morning to let me know that he put his band in the washing

00:03:15   machine and it came out fine.

00:03:18   So do whatever you want, I guess.

00:03:21   - I'm not entirely sure that that knowledge-based document

00:03:25   has been updated to detail the nylon band, right?

00:03:30   'Cause they've got a leather section

00:03:35   and then they say everything else do this,

00:03:36   but like the nylon band is such a different material.

00:03:39   - To the sport band.

00:03:40   - And yeah, it totally worked for Robbie.

00:03:41   I don't think I would put it in the washing machine

00:03:44   because I feel like it might get kind of more worn

00:03:47   and distorted in the washing machine.

00:03:49   But I would think like you would take a wool sweater

00:03:52   or something like that where you take it to the sink

00:03:56   and use soap and scrub it a little bit and let it dry.

00:04:00   And I think that would probably be, that's my gut feeling

00:04:02   is that would probably be the gentlest way to do it.

00:04:05   So, yeah.

00:04:07   - Like if you were to take a sport band,

00:04:11   obviously the way to clean it is just to wipe it, right?

00:04:14   Because it's rubber, you can just wipe anything off

00:04:17   with a lightly dampened cloth.

00:04:18   But that's not how the nylon ones work.

00:04:20   I agree, I don't think it's been updated.

00:04:22   So come on Apple, update the K-base.

00:04:24   Twitterific funded and it hit the $100,000 stretch goal.

00:04:31   This was something that me and you have been talking about

00:04:33   a bunch over the last couple of weeks.

00:04:34   I was unsure as to whether the campaign would fund.

00:04:37   It did fund.

00:04:38   I was one of the people that did what you said would happen

00:04:42   and which is how these things usually tend to go.

00:04:44   When it looked like it was gonna hit the 100,

00:04:46   I think it was something like 99,000 or something.

00:04:48   I backed because I am interested in this application

00:04:51   as long as it has the features that I wanted,

00:04:53   which were all behind the $100,000 stretch goal mostly.

00:04:57   And it did fund, I am pleased that it funded.

00:05:00   Of course, why would I not be pleased?

00:05:01   You put a hmm in the document here.

00:05:02   Jason was right, of course.

00:05:04   - I think it's Jason was right.

00:05:05   So like, I'm not sure you're pleased that I was right,

00:05:08   but I was, like I said two weeks ago

00:05:11   that weird things happen

00:05:12   when Kickstarters approach their end.

00:05:14   And I was pretty sure that they would fund.

00:05:17   - You were very confident.

00:05:18   - And they might hit,

00:05:19   I thought that it was pretty likely

00:05:21   they'd hit the stretch goal and that it totally,

00:05:23   it was dramatic.

00:05:24   Also something that I didn't remember,

00:05:26   I had already noticed, but I didn't mention,

00:05:28   because I wasn't thinking of it

00:05:29   while we recorded two weeks ago,

00:05:31   which was I noted that Jon Gruber

00:05:33   had not posted about it during "Fireball" yet.

00:05:35   And here's a thing that I've noticed,

00:05:37   and I haven't talked to Jon about this,

00:05:38   but the impression I get is Jon Gruber really likes,

00:05:42   and he says it in his write-ups,

00:05:43   He really likes having Daring Fireball readers

00:05:45   put Kickstarters over the top.

00:05:47   So all of those, like the two, three weeks

00:05:50   that Twitter-ific Kickstarter was going on,

00:05:52   he didn't say a word about it.

00:05:53   It's like, he totally knew about it.

00:05:55   It's a thing that he cares about.

00:05:56   And I'm sitting there going,

00:05:57   "So Gruber didn't write about this."

00:05:59   It's like, that's the answer, right?

00:06:00   Is John wants to be the one who comes in and goes,

00:06:02   "Boom, it's funded."

00:06:03   And that's totally what happened.

00:06:04   - Like the shining armor.

00:06:05   - Uh-huh, and that's totally what happened.

00:06:06   I mean, he posted it right before they hit their goal

00:06:09   and pushed them over.

00:06:10   So that's, and quite honestly, that's not a bad strategy, right?

00:06:14   To keep your audience in reserve for that moment when they need an extra boost when

00:06:20   it's three weeks in.

00:06:22   Don't discount the upgrade-ions, you know?

00:06:24   Oh, I know.

00:06:25   I think we helped get it close.

00:06:27   I think so.

00:06:28   I think that the upgrade-ions out there probably did help.

00:06:32   Yeah, I say like in general, of course, with the hashtag #wasright, the people, we like

00:06:39   to be right. Like I like to be right, you like to be right. But this isn't something

00:06:41   that I would have been happy to be right about, like if it didn't hit the stretch goal.

00:06:46   You've just been skeptical about which...

00:06:48   I have, I have. But now I'm pleased, I've bought in, I've got the level that has stickers,

00:06:53   of course, because I want stickers. And I'm curious to see how this project continues,

00:07:00   maybe over the next year or so. I think they're looking to ship the first beta this year,

00:07:05   So be curious to see how that goes along.

00:07:07   And I'm also interested to see if and how they use the kickstarter update functionality,

00:07:13   if they're going to let people in on the progression of the application.

00:07:18   We spoke a lot last week about windowing on iOS.

00:07:24   And Gary wrote in to remind us of an app called Moom.

00:07:27   And I had this in my head, but I don't know why I didn't bring it up.

00:07:30   Moom is an application for the Mac, which allows you to take Windows and kind of snap

00:07:37   them into corners and give them assigned sizes.

00:07:40   And this is very similar to the type of thing that I'm looking and hoping for on iOS in

00:07:46   the future when it comes to some kind of application management.

00:07:50   I'm trying to steer away from calling it window management, because if I call it window management,

00:07:56   I'm saying that there's Windows, so I'm calling it application management.

00:07:59   - Yes, the application view tiles or whatever you wanna call.

00:08:03   Yes, I know the reason that I didn't think of it

00:08:05   is we weren't talking about the Mac.

00:08:07   I mean, that's, it's, yes, there are lots,

00:08:09   there are probably a dozen different kind of window managers

00:08:13   for the Mac out there.

00:08:13   I did a search this morning, I was looking,

00:08:15   somebody else recommended a different one

00:08:17   that I'd never heard of,

00:08:18   and now I can't find that recommendation anywhere.

00:08:19   - Is it called Thieve?

00:08:21   - I don't think so, but there's a lot of them out there.

00:08:23   And Moom is great, it's for many tricks,

00:08:25   it's short for move and zoom.

00:08:27   And that's what it does,

00:08:28   is it lets you set the, yeah, I mean,

00:08:31   it's very clever for the Mac.

00:08:32   So that's the idea is for Apple to come up with something

00:08:35   that's fairly intuitive that lets you kind of manage

00:08:37   where your apps go on a screen,

00:08:40   especially if it's a larger iOS device.

00:08:42   And there are a lot of examples,

00:08:43   and Moom is a good one of ways to do this.

00:08:46   Windows obviously has its snapping stuff too,

00:08:49   that are application placement tools that make that easier

00:08:54   without it being a super complicated multi-layered window

00:08:58   that we think of for like Mac stuff today where I've got, like I have right now actually,

00:09:03   where I've got different windows and you know the one in the front is covering up three

00:09:07   other windows partially but that are behind them.

00:09:11   Steven Newton is the pure definition of a model upgrade.

00:09:17   Yes.

00:09:18   He sent in a picture of a record player attached to an iPod Hi-Fi.

00:09:22   See we can all get along.

00:09:24   Yep, perfect.

00:09:25   (laughing)

00:09:26   - They have a very special setup to Steven.

00:09:29   - Yep.

00:09:30   - So thank you Steven for sending that in.

00:09:31   This is, we were talking about,

00:09:34   how did this even come up last week?

00:09:36   Can you remember?

00:09:37   - Oh.

00:09:38   - We were talking about old hardware or something in--

00:09:41   - Yeah, I think that was it.

00:09:42   I think it was old tech and you talked about

00:09:44   how you had a record player and I mentioned

00:09:45   that I still use an iPod Hi-Fi just as my external speaker.

00:09:48   And then somebody called me a hipster and it's like,

00:09:50   no, I don't think that's how,

00:09:51   I think using old tech that you have around

00:09:53   because it still works, is as unhip as it gets.

00:09:57   If I bought an iPod HiFi at the thrift store

00:10:00   and then placed it prominently with an iPod in the dock

00:10:03   playing music, hipster music, that would be hipster-y.

00:10:07   - There is a, I'm not, okay,

00:10:08   I will not call you a hipster here, Jason.

00:10:11   But I will say that there is an element of hipster-ness

00:10:14   which would be to continue using something

00:10:16   after everybody's stopped as kind of like a,

00:10:19   look how special I am kind of thing.

00:10:20   - See, I don't agree.

00:10:21   I think hipsters get the stuff after people

00:10:25   have stopped using it in order to be new and different.

00:10:28   - That is definitely a bigger trend.

00:10:30   - What you're thinking of cheap people,

00:10:32   cheap people keep using old things because they still work

00:10:36   even though they're old and uncool and they risk mockery

00:10:39   by mentioning that they still use them.

00:10:41   That's those people are called cheap people

00:10:43   'cause I could totally buy a modern speaker

00:10:47   and hook it up to my iMac.

00:10:49   but why I have this dumb iPod HiFi that works fine with the ox port so I'm just cheap.

00:10:56   Apple's stock is currently at an all-time high so or at least hit it. I actually haven't looked

00:11:05   at what it is today. I'll take a look at that in a moment but on Friday...

00:11:08   It's great news for us Myke as huge Apple investors that we are not.

00:11:12   not.

00:11:19   (laughing)

00:11:21   The article written on Friday was that

00:11:24   there was an all-time high of $141.69.

00:11:29   Sorry, $140.69 was when it closed at trading

00:11:36   on Thursday, March 16th.

00:11:39   That was an all-time high which beat

00:11:41   the previous all-time high, which was set two days earlier.

00:11:45   right now Apple stock is at $141.15 a share.

00:11:49   I mean, we'll see where it goes by the end of trading today,

00:11:52   but it's, you know, it's higher than that even.

00:11:55   So this is interesting as to why it's doing this right now,

00:12:00   because I mean, me and you have been talking about

00:12:04   how there isn't really anything happening right now.

00:12:06   There's no products being announced, there's no news.

00:12:09   We're in a quiet period.

00:12:10   What's going on?

00:12:12   Are they, I mean, I assume,

00:12:14   My assumption is they are riding the last quarterly results,

00:12:17   which were very good.

00:12:19   And there's also a wave of anticipation for products.

00:12:22   - I guess, I mean, this is,

00:12:26   the problem is that the stock market is not always logical

00:12:29   and it is based on future prediction, right?

00:12:33   The past results are not, are already built into the stock.

00:12:36   So it's all about future prediction.

00:12:38   So it must be, it's people feeling the stock is undervalued,

00:12:42   people feeling that the stock is a better bet

00:12:44   than other places for them to put their money,

00:12:46   that Apple is much more likely to do well in the long run.

00:12:50   It's anticipation and rumors, it is.

00:12:52   It is about like the new iPhone

00:12:54   and getting excited about that.

00:12:55   And other rumors about what they're doing

00:12:58   and a feeling of confidence in Apple.

00:13:00   But some of it I think is, the market is interesting.

00:13:04   It's not always logical.

00:13:05   And for people who care like we do,

00:13:08   who care much more about the products

00:13:09   then we care about it as an investment opportunity.

00:13:12   And there are people out there who are very smart people.

00:13:14   I'm sure there are people who listen to this show

00:13:16   who really care are Apple investors

00:13:17   and they care about what Apple's doing

00:13:19   because they're thinking about Apple as an investment.

00:13:21   It's just not how I approach it.

00:13:22   It's not how most of the people we know approach this

00:13:25   because we're not in it to cover Apple as a stock.

00:13:28   We're in it to cover Apple as a company

00:13:30   that makes interesting products that we like to use.

00:13:33   And so for me, it's always a little bit baffling

00:13:37   about how this works

00:13:39   because the market's perception of Apple

00:13:41   is often quite different.

00:13:42   And this just to make sure we can ring the bell

00:13:46   that we've once again mentioned ATP.

00:13:48   You know, last week's ATP at one point,

00:13:50   there was a rant, Marco went off on a rant a little bit.

00:13:55   And at some point John Saracusa said,

00:13:56   you know, nobody's gonna be called to task

00:13:59   for Apple not putting out a new Mac Pro

00:14:01   if the stock's at an all time high.

00:14:03   And there's some truth to that,

00:14:04   that like, you know, you have to balance

00:14:06   the way we view Apple,

00:14:07   which is from a user's perspective

00:14:09   and the way the market views Apple.

00:14:12   Not saying that Apple internal management

00:14:13   doesn't have issues with some of the stuff

00:14:15   that's been going on

00:14:16   and the people might be called to account for it

00:14:17   if they are seen to be poor performers.

00:14:19   I don't really know that.

00:14:21   What I am saying is total different perspective

00:14:24   if you're an investor looking at Apple

00:14:25   and Apple's potential

00:14:26   and if you're a grumpy Mac user who has seen,

00:14:30   the latest, the last year of Mac releases from Apple.

00:14:34   - Yeah, it's just,

00:14:35   I think it puts things into a strange perspective, right?

00:14:38   Like, I guess the company has to and does pay attention

00:14:42   to both of these things, you know?

00:14:44   Like the happiness of their most enthusiastic users

00:14:48   and also their investors because they're both important.

00:14:51   I can't say who's more important, I don't know, honestly.

00:14:55   Like you can make arguments for both.

00:14:57   But to us, obviously our needs and our desires

00:15:01   are more important than anything else.

00:15:03   - Clearly.

00:15:04   But I just think it's interesting to see that at a time where the Apple enthusiast

00:15:11   media is saying that Apple is currently a little bit boring because they're not doing

00:15:17   anything, right? Or at least they're not doing the things that we want them to do that

00:15:20   seem so obvious that they should be doing, that the stock market is like, "Yeah! This

00:15:26   is great!" You know? And it's just a strange juxtaposition to see these two things happening

00:15:32   at the same time. Yeah, and of course the reality is that you can't, if you wait to

00:15:41   change the direction of your company based on feedback like, Steve Jobs actually I think

00:15:50   really managed this way which was never be comfortable always be thinking about the next

00:15:54   thing is and I hope Apple continues to have that culture that Steve Jobs put inside of

00:15:58   Apple because this is a great example where it would be very easy to say look

00:16:05   how much money we make from the iPhone it's one of the most successful

00:16:07   commercial products in existence

00:16:09   look at how great we're doing on on stock market everything is great and the

00:16:13   danger is if you look at those and say everything's fine and don't make changes

00:16:19   what's happening potentially is that what's happening inside Apple and and

00:16:24   its processes are not doing as well, and by the time that's visible to the outside world

00:16:31   and they start to take some hits, it's, you know, there's so much lag time that it's going

00:16:37   to be years before they can turn it around and they're going to go through many more

00:16:41   hard times. So I hope that Apple's culture remains such that they can look at the big

00:16:47   stock price and they can look at the great iPhone sales every single quarter and say,

00:16:55   "Yeah, but if we stop here, we have not done our jobs," and use their net worth, which

00:17:03   has just gone up because all these people have Apple stock options as part of their

00:17:08   compensation, use it as a motivation to do the next great thing instead of viewing, basically,

00:17:15   status quo is fine because we're doing great.

00:17:18   - Yeah.

00:17:19   It was just something that I saw the article go by

00:17:22   and I was like, wow, that's very strange.

00:17:25   - Isn't it funny?

00:17:26   It's certainly quite a contrast from the grumpiness of,

00:17:29   but like I said, I think Mac users especially

00:17:32   have reason to be grumpy and it doesn't necessarily mean,

00:17:34   I mean, let's be honest,

00:17:35   Apple would probably not get hit much if at all

00:17:38   in the stock price, if Apple said,

00:17:40   we're abandoning the Mac and focusing entirely

00:17:43   on the iPhone.

00:17:44   because the iPhone is so incredibly popular.

00:17:45   Yeah, it's so incredibly popular.

00:17:47   I don't think they're gonna do that,

00:17:48   but like the market doesn't care about the Mac users, right?

00:17:52   They care about the big picture

00:17:54   and the iPhone is really the big picture and the future.

00:17:57   The iPhone and then belief in Apple's internal genius

00:18:01   to create new product categories.

00:18:03   And some of that, you know, that's a bet.

00:18:04   That's where the future bet comes in,

00:18:06   which is whether it's car or it's,

00:18:08   Mark Herman had a report out today

00:18:10   about augmented reality down the road for Apple.

00:18:13   like whatever future bets they're making,

00:18:15   part of what's built into the stock price

00:18:17   is a belief that Apple will have more things

00:18:20   and they will continue to do well with new things.

00:18:23   Maintaining the Mac base, while important to us

00:18:27   and important to people, I would say within Apple,

00:18:29   to a certain degree at least, is not what they care about.

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00:19:46   So last month at the Recode conference, Peter Kafka, he interviewed at EdiQ about a bunch of

00:19:54   things. One of these was, one question that he asked was about podcasting and he was talking

00:20:01   about the shows that he does and he was talking about like the fact that he'd gotten an email from

00:20:06   from someone at Gimlet that wanted a bunch of questions to be asked or something. And

00:20:10   he basically said, "What are you doing in podcasting?" And Eddy Cue effectively shut

00:20:15   the entire conversation down with a quote, which I'll read here. He said, "I think

00:20:19   there's a huge resurgence in podcasting." Thanks, Eddy. "And it's exactly what customers

00:20:24   want because it's the ability of listening to something on demand when you want. And

00:20:27   that's exactly what it's about. Can we do more? And will we do more? Absolutely. We're

00:20:32   working on new features for podcasts, stay tuned.

00:20:36   This is one of those types of PR quotes that says everything and nothing.

00:20:41   Yeah, it's like the Tim Cook things about creative Mac users where it's like, "Oh, no,

00:20:46   they're very important to us."

00:20:48   And then it's like, "Okay, we're moving on.

00:20:50   What does that mean?"

00:20:52   And it's funny, I think this got lost a little bit in the whole people talking about Apple's

00:20:57   TV show.

00:20:58   I mean, that's sort of what everybody came out of there with.

00:21:00   like, oh, there's gonna be this TV show on,

00:21:03   that's Planet of the Apps,

00:21:04   and everybody was kind of snarking about that.

00:21:06   - That was the big news that came from it.

00:21:08   - But I thought this was really an interesting,

00:21:12   mysterious quote because I fully expected Apple to say,

00:21:16   look, podcasts are great,

00:21:18   we're happy to have the leading podcast directory,

00:21:22   and we've been there since the very beginning

00:21:25   supporting the podcasting world

00:21:27   because we think it's super important,

00:21:28   and we have been and will continue to be a leader

00:21:31   'cause podcasts are great.

00:21:32   And instead he says,

00:21:36   there's a huge renaissance, people are excited about it,

00:21:40   and we can do more and we're working on more.

00:21:43   It's like, okay, well that is, I agree it's nothing.

00:21:47   And yet it's less than, it's more than nothing, nothing.

00:21:52   I guess I don't know how you do it.

00:21:55   - It's not just we think podcasts are really great

00:21:58   and have a lovely home on iTunes.

00:21:59   - That's right, yay podcasts!

00:22:01   Instead it's like, yes, and we will be doing more.

00:22:04   Stay tuned, goodbye.

00:22:05   And so it's like, I won't say anything more about it,

00:22:07   but it is one tick up from nothing because it's,

00:22:10   they didn't, he didn't need to say that, right?

00:22:12   He didn't need to tease future developments for podcasts

00:22:15   'cause nobody really expects

00:22:16   future developments for podcasts, right?

00:22:18   I think he could have easily gotten away with just saying,

00:22:21   yeah, they're great, we love them, we're the leader,

00:22:23   yay us, yay podcasting, awesome.

00:22:27   And he didn't, he said, no, wait, wait, hey,

00:22:30   hold on everybody, we're working on more stuff for podcasts.

00:22:34   Stay tuned.

00:22:34   - So what could this mean?

00:22:38   So let's assume that they are doing something.

00:22:42   So let's assume that this quote means

00:22:44   that they are working on some stuff.

00:22:47   - Exactly, yeah, and so last week on Six Colors,

00:22:50   I tried to break this down a little bit

00:22:52   'cause it was like, I felt like nobody, I searched.

00:22:54   I was like, did anybody do this story

00:22:56   like after he talked about it, I got it on my list for weeks and I thought like, "Surely

00:23:00   there will be a conspiracy theory, what could it mean story about this?" And I couldn't

00:23:05   find one. Maybe there's one out there, but I never remembered reading one, so I did my

00:23:10   own.

00:23:11   So basically, where Apple are right now with podcasts, they have the iTunes podcast directory,

00:23:18   which was unveiled in 2005, and I would argue that it is basically the backbone of the podcast

00:23:25   industry. Yes, it is the largest directory. Basically everything is there. It is mostly

00:23:33   open to everyone. Apple do have some guidelines of what they allow in but it's mostly open

00:23:40   to everyone including explicit content. Fill out a form, submit your RSS feed and that's

00:23:45   it. Yep, and it's just RSS. That's it. The iTunes store doesn't host or redeliver your

00:23:53   content in any way, it is effectively a handshake between you, the user, and the RSS feed from

00:24:02   the producer. All Apple does is just subscribes you to that feed, then they're gone from the

00:24:07   equation if you're using the Apple podcast app. They're out of it. Apple has nothing

00:24:11   else to do with that relationship. Also as well, and you noted this in your article,

00:24:17   Basically for podcast producers, Apple has a pretty basic version of iTunes Connect,

00:24:24   which is the portal that they give to app developers, that they allow for podcasters

00:24:28   to use to kind of make some small changes to their page and allow them to submit more

00:24:34   than one show.

00:24:35   So after you submit the first one and you're in kind of the iTunes podcast connect portal,

00:24:39   you can submit more shows and it's an easier, more streamlined process and you get some

00:24:44   tools to kind of to manage things. And it's interesting because this is so this

00:24:49   will start in 2005 and an interesting historical note is this whole thing was

00:24:53   like podcasts were coming on and somebody at Apple said well why don't we

00:24:57   do something here and what they did was they they hacked the iTunes music store

00:25:03   infrastructure. Yeah. To create a podcast section in iTunes that's what they did.

00:25:07   That's all it is that's why there's charts and stuff like that. Exactly and

00:25:11   And what's funny is three years later, of course, they did their biggest hack of the

00:25:15   iTunes music store, which was the App Store, right? Which is entirely based on iTunes.

00:25:21   But this was like before the App Store came, this was like their, maybe not their first

00:25:26   because they did add like movies and TV. But this was an early example of Apple taking

00:25:31   their music infrastructure and just doing another category, in this case, podcasts.

00:25:37   they used as you mentioned it's all standard right this is not a custom

00:25:41   there are some custom tags in RSS feeds that you can put in that are iTunes tags

00:25:48   that basically give iTunes more information about your category and your

00:25:53   art and stuff like that but it's a it's an open thing and anybody can submit it

00:25:58   is basically Apple just said nobody's doing this and the for people to find

00:26:02   podcasts there needs to be a central directory so we'll build one and put it

00:26:05   iTunes and it is for the last 12 years it has not had any serious competition as the

00:26:11   definitive place for where podcasts live.

00:26:15   Funnily enough, this is just a funny piece of serendipity for me. This was the same presentation

00:26:23   in which they announced the switch to Intel for the Mac. My first Mac was the first Intel

00:26:30   and the iTunes podcast directory is obviously pretty important to me. Just a

00:26:36   funny little thing to me, like this kind of started all of everything that ran

00:26:41   through for me. It's just obviously this this event made a big impact on my brain

00:26:44   and I didn't know about it. So as well as all of these tools and the

00:26:49   directory itself, Apple has some marketing support for podcasts currently.

00:26:54   You see they have like the Twitter account and they obviously have the

00:26:58   featured pages and stuff like that which run they have it seems like they have

00:27:02   some sort of global reach on this I know there's some US support but there's also

00:27:06   dedicated support in other countries like the UK featured page is different

00:27:10   to the US featured page I just saw they had a job posting the other week that a

00:27:14   couple people sent to me I'm not quite sure if they want me to work at Apple on

00:27:18   podcast but they sent it to me and it was and I mean I think I have one person

00:27:23   send me said you know anybody who could do this job and it was it was a Spanish

00:27:27   language preferred, ideally curating podcasting charts and stuff for South America.

00:27:34   So there you go. They don't care about it, right? They have a resource for it. And of

00:27:38   course the iOS app is installed on all devices. This has gone backwards and forwards over

00:27:43   the years. They broke it out from the iTunes app, or the music app, whatever it was. Then

00:27:49   it was, you had to install it like you would install pages and then they pre-installed

00:27:54   it on all phones. Currently it's pre-installed as part of iOS.

00:27:57   Yeah, absolutely. So this is where Apple is right now. This is their podcast offering.

00:28:04   And you broke down your piece into a couple of headers. And the first header I also want

00:28:09   to read with some chunky quotes from your article, if you'll allow me to do so.

00:28:14   Sure, quote me.

00:28:15   So, "What Apple won't do" is what Jason says, and that is provide a lot of user data. So

00:28:20   This is from Mr Jason Snell. This is, I suspect, what every podcasting startup wants. Unlike

00:28:25   the web, where user behavior can be closely measured and quantified, podcasting is a bit

00:28:29   of a mystery. In general, we know that you downloaded a file, and that's it. To know

00:28:34   more, you need to be inside of the apps that people use to listen to podcasts.

00:28:39   I will just say, as a founder of a podcasting startup, Jason, I will call foul to your point

00:28:45   there. I don't want this.

00:28:47   - Well, okay.

00:28:48   Well, that's, I mean,

00:28:49   and I think I said earlier in that article,

00:28:52   it's a podcasting startup with venture backing

00:28:55   and investors who want a big return on their investment

00:28:58   and they wanna spend their money and ramp up really fast.

00:29:02   And yeah, this is like the gimlets of the world want this.

00:29:06   As Peter Kafka said to Eddie Q on stage,

00:29:09   this is the kind of stuff that the gimlets of the world want.

00:29:11   And I think a lot of people think they want this stuff

00:29:14   because they're thinking about digital advertising

00:29:16   and like on the web you get metrics.

00:29:19   You get so many metrics about who people are

00:29:21   and where they've been and what they're clicking on

00:29:23   and all of that.

00:29:24   And people don't realize that the way podcasting works

00:29:26   is like literally you download the file

00:29:29   and then you disappear.

00:29:30   You go into the fog after you downloaded a file.

00:29:33   We don't know if you play it.

00:29:35   We don't know how long it plays.

00:29:37   We don't know if you skip the ads.

00:29:39   The only way that we can see you through that fog at all

00:29:41   is if you send us an email or tweet at us

00:29:44   or use the offer code on an ad or anything like that.

00:29:49   But I can't tell once you download the file,

00:29:52   I basically can't tell if you ever play it or not.

00:29:55   You could subscribe and some apps will,

00:29:58   if you don't listen,

00:29:59   they'll stop downloading after a little while.

00:30:00   And we can tell that because the download number changes,

00:30:02   but we can't see user behavior.

00:30:05   That's a fact.

00:30:06   And it unnerves people who are,

00:30:08   even though in the history of media,

00:30:10   most media is like that.

00:30:11   We don't know how many people looked at the billboard.

00:30:13   We don't know how many people actually opened up that magazine that they subscribe to or

00:30:16   that newspaper that they subscribe to.

00:30:18   We don't know how many people had their eyes focused on the television when the ad played,

00:30:24   right?

00:30:25   We don't know any of those things either.

00:30:26   I mean, honestly, but you don't actually know how many people had the TV on, right?

00:30:30   It's all extrapolated stuff.

00:30:31   Right, it's all--I mean, there are meters and stuff now too, and they try to do some

00:30:35   eye tracking and person counting for some of that to get a sample of it, but it's not

00:30:38   like digital where in web advertising they know how many ads get served and they know

00:30:44   how many clicks there are. They know everything. And I think that that's spoiled digital ad

00:30:50   agencies where they view podcasting as a digital play and not as a radio or TV or newspaper

00:30:56   or magazine and they want all those stats. Now I think we could argue, would they actually

00:31:02   do anything with them and do they really need them? But they want them. There's a perception

00:31:07   that that stuff is desired and they can't get them without somebody handing

00:31:11   them data from inside an app which is why some podcast networks have their own

00:31:16   apps.

00:31:17   Another reason is that they can also lock content behind a paywall and we'll

00:31:20   talk about that in a minute I suspect but one of the reasons is because then

00:31:24   all the user behavior data belongs to them. So Stitcher for example is

00:31:30   you know that's owned by mid-roll they have a premium offering that's that you

00:31:34   pay for and you get extra stuff, but they also let you--it's a regular podcast app,

00:31:40   and it's not like it used to be where it re-encoded podcasts, it's just a regular podcast client

00:31:43   now--but Stitcher can--and I don't know if they are, I assume they are--look at your

00:31:49   behavior in the app. They can aggregate that and say, "This podcast was played by a certain

00:31:55   number, not just downloaded, and the average distance in that a listener got was here."

00:32:02   And if you aren't on the app looking at user behavior, you don't know.

00:32:07   And you know, I don't really have a desire to get any of that data personally.

00:32:13   And I agree.

00:32:15   I sell ads for Relay FM and I am a host, you know, like I have, I'm part of the whole package

00:32:23   and I don't, with where we are right now and the way that the business is right now, I

00:32:28   don't think it's necessary.

00:32:29   I think we're fine to continue our business and the podcast industry as business as a

00:32:35   whole as it is because the rights are good because the responsiveness is good and there

00:32:41   is a lot of what is called direct response advertising which is where we give codes or

00:32:46   URLs and the advertisers know if that works for them.

00:32:49   Exactly right.

00:32:50   It's more simple than the web but honestly it has worked and it is working and I am really

00:32:56   confused as to why people think it will get better if they can change it. I don't see

00:33:03   that happening.

00:33:04   And I've talked to our friend Lex Friedman who heads up sales at Midroll.

00:33:09   He's been on the show before. We had him on in the past.

00:33:12   He's been on this show and we've talked to him about this, right? Maybe we'll talk to

00:33:14   him again in the future because it is kind of fascinating. But he's made the point and

00:33:18   he's absolutely right. Like if I'm an advertiser and I give you X dollars and I look at how

00:33:23   many people put in my offer code and I say, "Wow, that really worked. I'm very happy with

00:33:27   how well that worked. I'm going to keep advertising." Does the number I claim to you in terms of

00:33:34   how many people listen to my podcast matter? Like, should you not be thinking of it in

00:33:39   terms of the value of who get who returned to you? Now, there are some cases with branding,

00:33:46   brand advertising, where you're less focused on the code and and you're, you know, that's

00:33:51   That's more of a cross my fingers and hope people are listening kind of situation, where

00:33:55   getting a tangible number could be helpful, but even then we can approximate.

00:34:01   And I think there's a move in the industry to try to find a common measurement statistic,

00:34:06   which is harder than it sounds, of like, how do you define a listener to a podcast?

00:34:12   Because of the way that it works on the technical side, it can be a hard thing to do.

00:34:15   But if we can nail that down, of like, this is how many people downloaded this podcast,

00:34:19   the numbers match, which they currently don't, then that's probably enough, right? Because

00:34:26   in the end, if I tell you I got 30,000 downloads, but we got a newfangled statistic that says

00:34:31   I've got 20,000 who actually listened, and the results for you as an advertiser are exactly

00:34:36   the same, you should pay me the same. Because that's what it's about, right? So I'm skeptical

00:34:43   and having worked on the web, right, for several years, many years, I can tell you there's

00:34:48   a lot of data, it isn't used well, a lot of times it's not measured right, and it is misused

00:34:55   by salespeople and by ad agencies and by clients to get whatever they want, to push the rates

00:35:02   down, to, you know, it's not, I don't see it in most cases as actually being valuable,

00:35:08   I see it as being corrosive. So, you know, I think, and then let's take this up a level,

00:35:15   we're talking about like would they actually use it I think the big picture

00:35:18   and like I said you quoted me saying what Apple won't do is I have a really

00:35:23   hard time seeing Apple provide detailed data about the behavior of its customers

00:35:30   inside an app back to the people who are a third party a core OS app as well

00:35:37   right I just have a hard time seeing Apple saying you know what hey everybody

00:35:41   who uses an iPhone, from now on when you play or pause or skip in our podcast app,

00:35:48   we're going to aggregate that data and send it to the maker of that podcast.

00:35:53   I just cannot envision Apple going down that route just because of Apple's

00:35:57   take on the sanctity of user data. I just have a hard time imagining that they

00:36:03   would ever let that level of detail happen. Now maybe they could do some

00:36:07   basic stats of plays or something like that and maybe they would do that. I'm

00:36:10   I'm skeptical still, but maybe. But I don't think Apple is ever going to be able to provide

00:36:16   podcasters with that level of detail of user behavior because it violates their stand on

00:36:23   privacy, user privacy.

00:36:25   So you have some other headings. What Apple might do, which is support paid subscriptions

00:36:30   for shows. So as you point out in the article, Apple has a payment infrastructure sitting

00:36:36   right there, which is part of the same underpinnings that the podcast store is built on, which

00:36:41   is the iTunes store and the app store, right? Like that infrastructure, the Apple ID infrastructure,

00:36:48   that's sitting right there with the ability to take people's money. So this may be to

00:36:53   enable for producers to create podcasts that have, that are just listener supported, you

00:37:01   know, like how you have one and we have one.

00:37:04   Yeah, like I was saying how Howl and Stitcher Premium and there are a bunch of things like

00:37:09   that or I mean there are plenty of examples where you have to download an app, a special

00:37:14   app to get access to that podcast because it's paid or Audible does this and sometimes

00:37:21   it's we wall off the archive, Script Notes does that and Marc Maron does that and you

00:37:25   have to pay and log in and then you get access and you can listen in those special apps.

00:37:30   So I could imagine Apple saying, "Hey, we're going to make it podcasters so that you don't

00:37:34   have to build your own app or work with a company who built a white-labeled app that

00:37:39   you're going to modify to look like you. You can just do it in Apple podcasts and iTunes."

00:37:47   And we've got a payment infrastructure already because we sell billions and billions of dollars

00:37:52   of apps and music and movies and whatever, and now you can do that for your podcasts.

00:37:57   here's a format and it's, you know, maybe it's just RSS, but it's put in a special place

00:38:01   or it's got some special tags and they, I don't know, you know, how the details would

00:38:06   work, but they have all the pieces to do that and say, we know that you're struggling in

00:38:11   making money and want to be able to sell your podcast to and the open podcast format doesn't

00:38:16   allow it. So we have, we've worked our magic to do that for you. I totally could see Apple

00:38:21   doing that. I, the question is, does this matter enough to Apple for them to build something

00:38:26   like that? And normally I would say no, but then again, I didn't expect Eddy Cue to say,

00:38:30   we've got things coming in podcasting. I expected him to just say, yay, podcasting is great.

00:38:35   So it makes me wonder if there's a commerce story here where they could be, because also

00:38:40   that's very Apple to swoop in as the savior and say, aha, we have the answer to people

00:38:46   who want to charge for special podcasts. We can make that happen and save those podcasters

00:38:51   and give them a single solution that does this.

00:38:54   I could totally see Apple doing that, making that pitch.

00:38:57   - And if they did that,

00:38:58   Apple starts becoming kind of like a gatekeeper

00:39:02   for specific content.

00:39:04   Could they then maybe put an application on Android,

00:39:09   like they have with Apple Music,

00:39:12   that would allow non-iOS users to get to that content?

00:39:15   Or would they wanna keep this content as iOS only

00:39:20   and/or would producers be happy enough to do that?

00:39:23   My gut feeling is that if Apple is going to go to the trouble

00:39:27   of launching a podcast subscriptions plan,

00:39:31   they would probably go to the trouble of doing an Android podcast app,

00:39:37   especially since the Android podcast app universe is not super strong, like

00:39:43   Pocketcast is there, and there are a few others, but like

00:39:46   Google Play Music podcast access is not the best. It's like,

00:39:49   It's not like that is a locked out area.

00:39:52   So Apple could go in there and then allow podcasters

00:39:55   to say you can subscribe to this paid podcast anywhere.

00:40:00   And they maybe do a web version,

00:40:02   they could do a Windows version,

00:40:03   although there's iTunes on Windows,

00:40:04   although everybody hates it,

00:40:06   but you could do like a web version that you log into

00:40:08   and you could play it there and it could sync

00:40:10   just like iTunes and the podcast app sync.

00:40:12   So I think that's the only reason

00:40:14   I could see Apple doing podcasts for Android,

00:40:16   but it's a reason, it's not a bad reason

00:40:19   if you're going to jump in and say,

00:40:21   we're gonna be the place that people who wanna charge

00:40:23   for premium podcasts do it.

00:40:26   That would be, that's my theory.

00:40:28   - But obviously the thing that we can assume

00:40:30   that will definitely keep happening

00:40:31   is what Apple's been doing, right?

00:40:33   So curating and managing and moving forward

00:40:37   the application that's currently on iOS, right?

00:40:39   Like that's what's gonna happen.

00:40:41   - Iterating, yeah, they'll improve the curation.

00:40:43   They'll, you know, they're apparently staffing up

00:40:46   or at least keeping their staff, I think.

00:40:48   And I think doing better jobs with curation,

00:40:51   improving the app, doing some better stuff in the app,

00:40:54   I think that will certainly happen regardless

00:40:56   and would have, regardless of what Eddy Cue said,

00:40:59   I would imagine that they would just keep on iterating

00:41:02   on that stuff and making it better.

00:41:04   - But I guess if it's more,

00:41:06   I think that SafeBet would be on there being

00:41:10   some kind of support for paid podcast subscriptions.

00:41:15   - That's the best I can come up with

00:41:16   is Apple taking their existing free podcast database

00:41:21   and then adding a paid layer onto it.

00:41:24   So not like paying for your existing podcasts.

00:41:28   And it really is like the idea that if you're,

00:41:32   what Audible is doing now is a good example

00:41:38   or what Howl and Citra Premium are doing now,

00:41:41   which is we've got some shows

00:41:43   that you have to be a member to get, right?

00:41:46   So imagine somebody saying, here's a great new podcast,

00:41:49   it costs, you know, it costs $5 a year

00:41:54   or something like that to get it.

00:41:56   And if you don't pay, you don't get it.

00:41:58   There's questions about if this would even work,

00:42:01   but it's certainly a la carte purchases

00:42:03   and ongoing subscriptions are both things

00:42:05   that Apple has a great history with.

00:42:07   I'm not sure I love this idea and I'm not sure it would work.

00:42:11   I'm just saying that if I try to think of something

00:42:13   Apple might do and that I hear some demand for among some podcasters, especially ones

00:42:19   that are trying to find a good revenue model, then I could see this happening. I'm not sure

00:42:24   I would ever use it, but the fact is I have a premium podcast feeder too for The Incomparable

00:42:33   and Relay does too, and it's more security through obscurity and honor system than anything

00:42:39   else because there's no way to lock that down. And I'm fine with that because I want to let

00:42:42   people listen in Overcast if they want to and not say you can only listen to this in

00:42:47   podcasts and I imagine that's how it would work right it's not going to be like oh Marco

00:42:52   here's the API that lets you have access to the premium podcast it seems unlikely right

00:42:57   it's more going to be it's in the podcast app on iOS if you log in with your Apple ID

00:43:02   and subscribe.

00:43:03   I guess the one thing that I would be interested in and would think it'd be kind of cool if

00:43:08   if they did it would be a way to allow people to pay

00:43:13   for early access, you know?

00:43:15   So like, if you pay, you get the show,

00:43:17   and then a week later it's free, or something like that.

00:43:20   - Which is what a lot of those other models do.

00:43:22   Like Audible does that. - I would like to see it,

00:43:24   because otherwise there's gonna be two listings

00:43:26   for every single podcast in existence, right?

00:43:30   - Oh, yeah.

00:43:32   - 'Cause they're gonna put it up for the paid version,

00:43:34   or they're gonna have the free version,

00:43:36   which comes out later, which has ads in it.

00:43:38   I think it would be kind of cool if they found a way to

00:43:40   To do that right and again, I can't force really foresee

00:43:47   wanting to go down this route like I can't think of any project that I have currently or I'm

00:43:53   Thinking about that would fit this because of it being walled into Apple's application

00:43:58   But yeah, I guess one other thing that you didn't mention that

00:44:03   I don't think Apple will do is become an advertising player of any kind

00:44:07   Don't you think they've gone down that route already?

00:44:15   I think it's right to point it out because it does indicate that something is coming

00:44:20   but I think it's kind of unclear to put my finger on exactly what they're going to do

00:44:28   but I think that logic would dictate what you have suggested here which is that it would

00:44:34   be some kind of way for podcasters to make money from Apple's stored credit cards.

00:44:42   So there you go.

00:44:44   This week's episode, this is how we make money, this week's episode is brought to you by FreshBooks.

00:44:50   Whether you are racing against the clock to wrap up the projects that you're working on whilst preparing for a meeting later in the afternoon,

00:44:57   or whilst trying to tackle a mounting of paperwork or maybe you're out in the field, it doesn't matter what you're doing,

00:45:02   of what you're doing, life as a freelancer can be challenging and invoicing is just one of the

00:45:07   biggest challenges because it's tricky to manage. It's also the way that you make money, right?

00:45:14   You make money as a freelancer. Somebody has a client who buys the invoices that you send out.

00:45:20   So you want this stuff to be dealt with really well. You want to be able to give your clients

00:45:24   loads of ways to pay you and you want to be able to have tools that help you manage it.

00:45:28   That's what FreshBooks is all about. Their platform is designed with the focus on telling

00:45:35   you how your business is doing and allowing you to send out your invoices quickly. You'll

00:45:41   be able to jump in to FreshBooks and get an invoice sent out in less than 30 seconds that's

00:45:45   going to look super professional. You can put your logo on it and everything. You'll

00:45:49   be able to build it in their wizard widget interface so you will see exactly how your

00:45:53   client's going to see it when it hits their inbox. You'll be able to set up for online

00:45:57   payments in just a couple of clicks. This is why FreshBooks customers get paid up to

00:46:03   4 days faster than anybody else. So for example you can integrate their own payment system

00:46:08   that they've built, you can integrate card payments, you can integrate PayPal payments,

00:46:12   you can give information on how people can send you cheques, it's all in there so you

00:46:15   can give your clients any way they want to pay you, they can make it happen. You'll be

00:46:21   able to see where your invoice is with your client as well, it's one of my favourite features.

00:46:27   you can go into any specific invoice, you can see if it's been opened, you can see if

00:46:30   it's been printed, you get an idea of where it is, and even if they come back to it, so

00:46:36   it's been 10 days, they log in again and they take a look again, you'll know that somebody's

00:46:40   come back to your invoice. Everything's tracked, no more guessing games, no more chaser emails.

00:46:44   You also get a feed which I really like so you can kind of, when you log into FreshBooks

00:46:48   with all their notifications, you can see who has been logging in, who hasn't been and

00:46:52   needs your attention.

00:47:21   So one of our Ask Upgrade questions was from Tyler and Tyler asked "What is on your home

00:47:29   screens?" Now this is too big of a question for this Ask Upgrade and I'm not sure, I

00:47:36   did a little search, I couldn't remember, I didn't think that me and you have ever

00:47:39   done this before and it's one of my favourite things to do is to compare people's home

00:47:45   screens. I take great pleasure in doing this, looking at people's home screens, asking

00:47:50   questions sometimes picking them apart if necessary. So we're going to do this. I think

00:47:55   we'll start with you Jason and we'll take a look at your iPhone and iPad. So there'll

00:48:00   be links in the show notes so people can go and see it. And this is like our home screen

00:48:05   says of like yesterday or something when I asked for the pictures. So we'll take a look

00:48:11   at your, we'll take a look at your iPhone home screen here. So let's kind of go left

00:48:18   to write from top to bottom and explain, you know, in as many words as you would like,

00:48:23   the choices that you have made for the apps that you have here.

00:48:27   All right. Um, messages. Because, you know, people need messages.

00:48:33   I send texts to my wife and my daughter and my mom and yeah, messages. Phone, no longer

00:48:43   in the doc. It was in the doc for a very long time, Myke. But I took it out because you

00:48:47   know what? I don't call on my iPhone very much. Pretty simple. But it took me a

00:48:53   while, took me a long time to accept a phone app needed to not be in the dock

00:48:58   anymore. It's still on your home screen though. Well I do make calls and I'm not

00:49:05   gonna go that far as to hide it. The App Store. Because you got to update

00:49:12   things, right? You got to find apps that somebody mentions to you. So I got the

00:49:16   app store there. These are up and the rationale here by the way is that the higher up it is

00:49:21   to a certain point the top row I'm actually not that I don't think those are that important

00:49:25   because they're far away from my from my fingers.

00:49:28   But you want to be I guess with the thing here is you want to be able to see those you

00:49:32   have badges set for those applications so I guess that's that's kind of the thinking

00:49:36   there right like messages and phone and the app store.

00:49:38   I do have badges on those.

00:49:39   You want to see there's stuff going on right I guess which makes sense to me.

00:49:44   There it is. I don't have a lot to say about that. The next row is maps.

00:49:49   And it's Apple maps, right? You use Apple maps.

00:49:52   Yeah, that's my primary.

00:49:54   Yeah, so the maps data here is fine. And then I have Google maps, but it's not on the screen.

00:49:59   Authy, which I use for two-factor codes for the most part.

00:50:04   Yes, I know that 1Password does two-factor as well.

00:50:08   I find Authy's interface much simpler at getting at two-factor codes.

00:50:13   codes. So don't email me. I do have one as a trial I put my Dropbox two-factor

00:50:21   in one password and it's more convenient when I'm at my Mac and less

00:50:27   convenient everywhere else because I have to open one password and unlock it

00:50:30   and go to my favorites or my where I've saved it and then I can view the code

00:50:36   and then Authy it opens and I can choose which account and the code is there. It's

00:50:42   It's easier.

00:50:43   So I like Offee.

00:50:44   Yeah, I don't do any of this.

00:50:46   I use text messages.

00:50:47   I feel like I need to get into the future with this.

00:50:50   Get into the future, Myke.

00:50:51   I use text messages for all of my Two Facts of Stuff.

00:50:53   Join us here.

00:50:54   We have iPod Hi-Fis.

00:50:55   I don't know.

00:50:56   That's the wrong future.

00:50:57   I don't want to be a part of that future smell.

00:51:00   No record players here in the future.

00:51:03   Find Friends is next to it because I use that a lot to see, is my wife coming home from

00:51:09   work yet?

00:51:10   you know, where's my daughter?

00:51:12   That happens a lot.

00:51:13   Where's my son?

00:51:14   If he's riding his bike home and I'm like,

00:51:16   is he on his way home yet?

00:51:18   Just checking in on where my family is.

00:51:21   - Where's Myke?

00:51:21   - That type of stuff.

00:51:23   - Where's Myke?

00:51:23   I can check on that.

00:51:24   Where's Steven Hackett?

00:51:25   I can find out.

00:51:26   Settings.

00:51:28   'Cause you know, sometimes you gotta set settings.

00:51:31   - Gotta set those settings now.

00:51:33   - You gotta do it.

00:51:34   Next row, any list.

00:51:37   This is currently our shared grocery list app.

00:51:41   - Not me and you.

00:51:43   - No. - No.

00:51:44   - No, my families.

00:51:45   And it's not just me.

00:51:46   I used to say this was my wife's and mine,

00:51:48   but it's actually my daughter.

00:51:51   My daughter has now been given access to the AnyList list.

00:51:54   And now when she complains

00:51:56   that there's not something in the house,

00:51:58   we say, put it on the list,

00:51:59   instead of dutifully putting it on the list for her.

00:52:02   So she now has to do that as a 15 year old.

00:52:06   also leads to some very funny things

00:52:08   that I find on the list from time to time.

00:52:09   Like really, this must be Jamie.

00:52:11   Notes, 'cause notes is actually really great.

00:52:19   And I use it all the time to write down things that are,

00:52:24   I do this for my notes for when I'm watching a movie

00:52:27   or something for the incomparable,

00:52:28   or if I need something that is like a more detailed

00:52:32   than a to-do item, that is, you know,

00:52:35   here's a thing that I need to remember,

00:52:36   or something somebody is saying,

00:52:38   or I'm having a conversation with somebody

00:52:41   and they tell me a few things

00:52:42   that I need to write down somewhere

00:52:43   and I don't have paper or a pencil or a pen,

00:52:45   so I use notes for that.

00:52:47   So I keep it out there.

00:52:48   One password, because I do use one password all the time

00:52:54   to look things up.

00:52:55   And I can't just access it from the extension

00:53:00   for a few reasons.

00:53:01   Sometimes the extension doesn't work right.

00:53:05   yep and sometimes I need to get things on the clipboard for very specific

00:53:08   reasons for other apps or whatever so I need to have it handy

00:53:11   and then the next one that rose fantastic al

00:53:17   which is my calendar I use that instead of the Apple calendar on the iPhone

00:53:21   that's great

00:53:24   nothing no comments yet no my my comment on fantastic al will come after your

00:53:29   next application

00:53:31   - Oh, all right.

00:53:32   Reminders.

00:53:34   - Yeah.

00:53:35   - So anytime I have an idea for a story

00:53:38   that I think would be a good story for Six Colors

00:53:40   or from a Mac world column, I open reminders.

00:53:42   I've got a story list list.

00:53:44   I write it down there.

00:53:45   Anytime I have an idea for like a novel I wanna write

00:53:48   or a short story I wanna write, I open reminders.

00:53:50   I've got a story ideas list.

00:53:53   I put it down there.

00:53:54   So that's literally, I mean, this happened to me yesterday

00:53:57   where I'm walking somewhere and I think,

00:53:59   oh that would be a cool novel idea and I open up reminders and type in enough that reminds

00:54:06   me that I had that idea and then I put it away again. Because if you don't write it

00:54:12   down then you may never remember it again. It could be a very good idea. They bubble

00:54:15   up all the time, story ideas do. Whether it's fiction ideas or especially like my tech writing

00:54:20   stuff those bubble up and I gotta capture them and I capture them in reminders. And

00:54:24   that is when I'm sitting at my desk here looking and thinking I gotta write something, what

00:54:29   am I gonna write?" I open the story list in Reminders and there are all of my dumb ideas

00:54:34   and then I look at them and I'm like, "No, no, yes, okay, maybe that one," and that's

00:54:39   how I manage that part of my process.

00:54:42   That's interesting. I put stuff like that in Notes, really.

00:54:46   Yeah, I like this because the story list is much more prominent and I do use Notes for

00:54:52   other things, so then I have to go find the story list, and there is something very satisfying

00:54:57   about checking the box when I post the story.

00:55:01   - You can have check boxes in the Nodes app.

00:55:03   - I can, but it's not the same.

00:55:05   This, I check the box and they go away.

00:55:08   - Ah, right, okay, yeah.

00:55:09   There's a big difference.

00:55:10   - I don't have to do any maintenance on it.

00:55:12   I just add them and then when I write the story,

00:55:13   I check the box and that's it.

00:55:15   So it works perfectly for how I use it.

00:55:17   - Then you have music and Sonos here.

00:55:21   - I listen to music, the music app,

00:55:23   when I have headphones on, on my iPhone.

00:55:26   I use the Sonos app when I'm playing music in the house.

00:55:30   - Yep.

00:55:31   - So I need both.

00:55:33   - Now the MLB at bat application,

00:55:37   is this video, is this like scores

00:55:42   and do you have it on your phone the whole time?

00:55:44   - Oh no, there's a whole,

00:55:46   so Myke, after the World Series is over,

00:55:49   I go through a one week period of mourning

00:55:51   that baseball is over until the next spring

00:55:53   And then there's a brief solemn ceremony is held

00:55:58   where the MLB at Bad App is removed from my home screen.

00:56:02   And then in March, as the flowers are beginning to peak up

00:56:07   out of the flower beds and the promise of spring is arriving,

00:56:11   there's another ceremony where there's confetti,

00:56:16   there may be some songs, and the MLB at Bad App

00:56:18   is added back to my home screen.

00:56:20   - Okay.

00:56:21   - And I don't even keep it somewhere else.

00:56:22   I delete it in the off season.

00:56:23   It's just not on my phone.

00:56:25   - Oh wow. - And I bring it back

00:56:26   and it's on the home screen.

00:56:27   - That's a big ceremony.

00:56:28   That was more than I expected.

00:56:29   - It's not thrown in a folder.

00:56:30   I'm not gonna throw baseball in a folder for the winter.

00:56:32   It goes away and you need to feel that death.

00:56:36   - That is dead, it's gone.

00:56:37   - That misery and then you bring it back.

00:56:40   And so now it's back and it does scores,

00:56:44   it does audio so I can listen to like,

00:56:46   I can be walking somewhere and listen to the baseball game

00:56:48   on my headphones while I'm going.

00:56:50   It does do video including live games, but also highlights.

00:56:54   And it does some push notifications

00:56:56   and I tweak those settings

00:56:57   so I can get some push notifications

00:56:59   of like the game is starting.

00:57:00   That's the one I have on for the giant.

00:57:01   The giant's game is starting now.

00:57:03   And that is useful to me.

00:57:06   So yeah, it's great.

00:57:07   It's a great app.

00:57:08   It's always been a great app.

00:57:09   It's one of the best apps on iOS since the very beginning.

00:57:13   - So then you have the mail app because you get email.

00:57:18   - I do sometimes get email

00:57:19   and I am back to using mail.

00:57:21   - Yeah, what's going on here?

00:57:24   What were you using?

00:57:25   Were you on air mail or Spark?

00:57:26   I don't remember.

00:57:27   - I was using air mail for a while.

00:57:29   - And why are you back on the Apple mail app now?

00:57:32   - You know, Spark has some HTML rendering issues

00:57:35   where I had email messages that I would open

00:57:39   and it would not display them

00:57:40   or it would only display parts of them.

00:57:42   Like Ben Thompson's Stratechery newsletter,

00:57:44   everything that he would quote in block quote

00:57:46   just didn't show up.

00:57:48   - Wait, did you say Spark or Air Mail?

00:57:50   - In Air Mail.

00:57:51   - In Air Mail, okay.

00:57:52   - Yeah.

00:57:53   And so I'm just back to this for now.

00:57:55   And again, I'm kind of open.

00:57:56   And I use Gmail, so I could probably just use the Gmail app,

00:57:59   but I don't think I like the Gmail app

00:58:00   as much as I like this.

00:58:01   Although I thought about it.

00:58:02   I thought about Gmail, I thought about Inbox.

00:58:04   I've used those a little bit

00:58:05   because I do use Google Mail, so I could use Gmail.

00:58:09   But right now I'm back to Apple Mail.

00:58:12   I've gone back to the default, at least.

00:58:14   It's a tenuous hold on my home screen.

00:58:18   - Now, when I saw this picture initially,

00:58:20   is these next three icons on your bottom row

00:58:23   that I am the most interested in here?

00:58:25   - I thought about moving them out,

00:58:27   and then I decided, no, no, you get to see the real thing.

00:58:29   So next is a folder containing eight flight tracking apps,

00:58:34   because as I wrote on six colors,

00:58:37   my flight tracking app was discontinued.

00:58:39   - So it was my flight tracking app.

00:58:42   I downloaded a bunch of possible replacements

00:58:46   so that I can try them out and decide what I think

00:58:49   and write an article about it.

00:58:50   Like decide what I think of the flight.

00:58:51   - The whole world is looking at you for this answer.

00:58:53   You know that, right?

00:58:54   - Yeah.

00:58:54   Yeah, unfortunately I'm not traveling for another two weeks.

00:58:57   So, and I haven't had the time to like put in a fake flight

00:59:00   and experience that, which I probably should do,

00:59:03   but I thought it might be better

00:59:04   if I just put my flights to London in here

00:59:06   and had that experience.

00:59:09   So this is a temporary thing.

00:59:11   And likewise, the next two,

00:59:14   I have Stitcher and Audible on here.

00:59:15   And that's because I've been listening to "Offices and Bosses"

00:59:19   which is a Stitcher premium show

00:59:20   based on "Hello from the Magic Tavern."

00:59:22   And it's only on Stitcher premium and Howl.

00:59:25   So I have to have one of those on here.

00:59:28   And Audible I have on here

00:59:29   because I've been listening to "Presidents or People 2"

00:59:32   which is a show that is an Audible original.

00:59:34   It does end up getting posted on iTunes

00:59:38   and I'm so far behind that it might be better,

00:59:40   I might be better off just subscribing

00:59:42   to the iTunes feed of it.

00:59:43   But as an Amazon Prime customer,

00:59:45   I have access to all that stuff through Audible,

00:59:46   all the Audible channels material.

00:59:48   - I did not know that.

00:59:49   - Yeah, Amazon Prime, you get access to the,

00:59:51   not to all the Audible books, but to their podcasts,

00:59:54   which are called channels.

00:59:55   The Audible app interface is terrible by the way,

00:59:57   but in terms of like controlling what you hear next,

01:00:01   I don't understand how it works,

01:00:02   which is why I might move it back to Overcast.

01:00:04   So those are there for now,

01:00:05   but they're not positions of honor.

01:00:07   it's more like I want to remind myself that I've got podcasts to listen to that I can't

01:00:12   listen to in Overcast so I need to use them instead. So they round it out. And then there's

01:00:17   another row that's empty.

01:00:19   So here's a question I have for you, right? You're an empty row person. You have three

01:00:24   icons that are currently seem to be temporary, right? The flight tracker's app, Stitcher

01:00:29   and Audible. But you have mail on this row with these. So do you usually or would you

01:00:35   usually have just mail on that row on its own?

01:00:38   Well, no, probably not.

01:00:42   So is that like, do you have like this temporary space on your home screen where things get

01:00:47   moved in and out?

01:00:48   Sometimes, and in fact I think what happened here is that I added those in and I added

01:00:52   the MLB app back, and that if I had just added the MLB app back and I had mail sticking out

01:00:58   in the next row all by itself, I would have had to, I could have left it there, I might

01:01:02   also have decided to add three things in or remove a thing. If you have to remove a thing,

01:01:09   do you know what it would have been from your current list of things here? Or is that too

01:01:14   difficult a question? I think that's too difficult a question. It's very difficult. I don't think

01:01:19   I would, I don't think I need two empty rows so I probably would have thought are there

01:01:22   some other things that are floating around that I use occasionally that I could bring

01:01:25   up to my home screen. Yeah I'm going through this a little bit now as you'll discover soon.

01:01:32   I have some spacing issues.

01:01:34   But your dock, your dock is,

01:01:36   seems pretty standard as I would expect.

01:01:39   You have overcast, then Safari, Twitterific, and Slack.

01:01:43   - Yeah, and this is a big change for me.

01:01:45   I mean, I didn't used to have Slack in the dock.

01:01:47   I didn't used to have overcast in the dock.

01:01:49   My dock used to be phone, mail, Safari, and Twitterific.

01:01:52   - So what happened there?

01:01:53   - Well, what happened is I realized

01:01:54   that the things that I use my phone for by far the most

01:01:57   are Slack, Twitterific, overcast, and Safari,

01:02:00   and they should probably be in my dock.

01:02:01   That makes a lot of sense.

01:02:03   - I also only have a second screen

01:02:05   and it's all just folders with stuff dumped in them.

01:02:07   Because I'm on the gray Hurley model,

01:02:11   which is, if it's not on the home screen,

01:02:12   I'm just searching for it, come on.

01:02:14   - All right, let's flip over to your iPad real quick.

01:02:18   - Okay.

01:02:19   - Take a look here.

01:02:20   So I guess first off,

01:02:21   do you think of your iPhone and iPad layouts

01:02:25   in relation to each other in any way?

01:02:28   - No.

01:02:29   - No, neither do I.

01:02:29   I'll set it up straight up front like I do not.

01:02:32   So there's a couple of things that I'm noticing here in contrast to your iPhone.

01:02:35   Although Twitterific and Slack are on the far right of the dock, which is something

01:02:38   that is the same on both, but I think that's a coincidence.

01:02:41   I've already noticed a few things that are interesting to me about this, about what you've

01:02:45   got going on here.

01:02:46   You have Calendar, not Fantastic Cal on your iPad.

01:02:50   Why is that?

01:02:51   I don't like the layout of Fantastic Cal on the iPad.

01:02:54   Yeah, I only like it in Split View, honestly.

01:02:57   I don't think that the full view is very nice.

01:03:01   I don't like it very much.

01:03:03   - I really like the weak view in calendar on the iPad.

01:03:07   - Yeah, I don't like that it shows the entire month,

01:03:10   like it has the whole month calendar in the bottom right.

01:03:12   Like I'm not a big fan of the Fantastical layout either.

01:03:16   So you have on here a bunch of specific reading applications

01:03:20   like ComiXology, Marvel Unlimited,

01:03:23   is the SF Chronicle and Washington Post apps,

01:03:25   are they in newspaper?

01:03:26   Oh, and the New York Times, are they newspapers,

01:03:28   or are they like-- - Yes.

01:03:30   - Let me, I know, sorry, I know they are newspapers,

01:03:33   but I mean, is it the newspaper application,

01:03:35   or is it like a web, like is it an iPhone application,

01:03:38   that make sense, like it's not like a newsstand thing.

01:03:41   - It's not a, well, newsstand doesn't exist anymore,

01:03:43   but it's not like a digital replica of a newspaper.

01:03:46   - Yeah, 'cause they definitely still exist

01:03:48   those applications.

01:03:49   - Yeah, no, they're stories, so that's,

01:03:51   and those are the three news sources that I subscribe to,

01:03:55   And so I have the apps on here and I will read them

01:03:58   in the morning with my tea sometimes.

01:04:00   I got the local news from the Chronicle

01:04:01   and I got the Washington Post and the New York Times

01:04:03   and I will read them sometimes

01:04:05   and they send me little news alerts every now and then.

01:04:06   And I do most of that newspaper reading on the iPad,

01:04:11   usually in the morning.

01:04:13   So that's a good place for those.

01:04:15   A lot of the same apps are on here by the way, I should say,

01:04:18   Calendar is different, but like Photos App Store,

01:04:20   Find Friends, 1Password, Notes,

01:04:23   they're all there for the same reasons.

01:04:25   And in fact, you'll see Reminders isn't on here,

01:04:27   and that's because very rarely am I,

01:04:31   Reminders is my walking around somewhere,

01:04:33   can't need to dash something down

01:04:36   that I'm thinking of right away.

01:04:38   And that rarely ever happens when I'm in the context

01:04:41   of using an iPad.

01:04:42   And if it is, I'll just search for it,

01:04:43   but it's pretty rare.

01:04:44   So yeah, I have the two comic book reading apps,

01:04:47   I've got the three newspaper apps,

01:04:48   they're all out here on top.

01:04:50   - You have a weather app, Wunderstation,

01:04:52   I think it's probably talking to your weather station, right?

01:04:55   - Yeah, Wonder Station is from Weather Underground

01:04:58   and it's iPad only,

01:05:01   and it lets you connect to any Weather Underground

01:05:03   weather station.

01:05:04   So it's got my live weather data

01:05:06   and I can also look at like weather stations

01:05:08   that are near other people.

01:05:09   So like I can say,

01:05:11   this is how hot it is at my mom's house in Phoenix,

01:05:13   'cause there's a weather station like 200 yards away

01:05:16   from where she lives.

01:05:17   So I can get exactly in her community,

01:05:20   how ridiculously hot it is.

01:05:22   but you had no weather app on your iPhone home screen.

01:05:25   - I don't.

01:05:26   I searched, I just yesterday was searching

01:05:28   for the weather app and I think in the winter

01:05:31   when we were having lots and lots of rain,

01:05:33   I think dark sky was up there.

01:05:35   And then I moved it off because we're getting towards spring

01:05:38   and I had other things that I was putting on there.

01:05:39   So I think dark sky probably was on there and got demoted.

01:05:42   And I thought about that,

01:05:43   maybe bringing a weather app back.

01:05:45   Because I do look it up and I end up searching

01:05:48   for the weather app, which is dumb.

01:05:49   - And then of course you have your two writing applications

01:05:52   like Scrivener and OneWriter, and these aren't on the iPhone.

01:05:55   I assume you're doing all the writing on your iPad,

01:05:57   or your Mac, right? - Yeah, I don't write

01:05:59   on my iPhone, and so yeah.

01:06:01   So Scrivener and OneWriter are on here,

01:06:02   and that's where I do writing on my iPad.

01:06:04   - Do you have them on your iPhone

01:06:06   so you can review something if you want to?

01:06:08   - They may be on there. - Okay.

01:06:11   - But in practice, I never-- - You don't do that.

01:06:14   - Open them up, yeah.

01:06:15   - And then the only other one here is Ferrite,

01:06:17   which is your audio app, your podcasting app on iOS

01:06:21   that you use? - Yeah, it's an audio editor

01:06:23   and sometimes it's on the first screen

01:06:25   and sometimes it's not because I go a long time

01:06:28   without using it 'cause I only really use it when I travel.

01:06:30   It happens to be there right now.

01:06:32   And MOB at bat, I should say is also on here,

01:06:34   which is great because again, scores, highlights, videos,

01:06:38   and it does picture in picture so I can put a game on

01:06:40   and have it float while I do other stuff.

01:06:43   And then down in the dock,

01:06:45   it's not that exciting, mail, messages, Safari, settings,

01:06:48   Twitter, if it can Slack.

01:06:49   No overcast by the way, because I don't listen to podcasts on my iPad. Occasionally, overcast

01:06:55   is on here and occasionally I will look if somebody is referencing something that was

01:06:59   in a podcast, I'll go and like stream it, but I've got it set to stream only and it's

01:07:03   just, it's there if I need to access a podcast really quickly for reference, but I don't

01:07:08   use it for listening.

01:07:09   All right, my turn. I feel like there's a little bit more peculiarness in my iPhone

01:07:15   home screen people seem to find that to be the case.

01:07:19   So I'm going to go top left as you did. I will note how much nicer the iPhone home screen

01:07:27   looks on the plus with those packed in icons. It looks richer, especially mine is just a

01:07:35   more very colourful. My background by the way will be in the show notes. I've got to

01:07:42   get it in now, come on, you got a Jason was right. I'm not saying I'm right, just let

01:07:47   me say that.

01:07:48   Have you started talking about your home screen yet? I missed it.

01:07:51   I have a wallpaper which is the Upgrading Official War Paper. I use that for my iPhone,

01:07:57   I'll put a link in the show notes if you want to find it. I'm very upset that you weren't

01:08:01   using it Jason but you did have a picture of one of your children so I guess that's

01:08:04   acceptable.

01:08:05   Sitting on the beach, yeah.

01:08:06   I'm going to go top left at the Relay FM app, which is our live listening app. Mostly

01:08:13   because I just like to see my own company logo on my iPhone on screen. Honestly, that's

01:08:18   the reason that's there. I use Bear. Bear is where I do the writing for all of our advertising

01:08:25   copy for all of the shows. All of the sponsor reads are all written in Bear. It's a markdown

01:08:29   text editor. Notes. Notes is where all of my notes go, whether it's just like simple

01:08:34   text notes or ideas for things, all of my travel documents go in there and all of my

01:08:41   show preparation notes. So not the documents that me and Jason share but as I'm thinking

01:08:47   of things to talk about throughout the week for my shows I just send all of the links

01:08:51   and thoughts into notes and collect them up on the day of the show to put into our show

01:08:55   documents which tend to be in Google Docs.

01:08:58   Dropbox is my file system, it's where all of my files are for everything, it all goes

01:09:03   in Dropbox on all devices so I can view everything that I need to. I have due which is where

01:09:10   I keep simple recurring reminders for things and or like if I have to go take the trash

01:09:17   out later on today or take a pill if I'm sick like that all goes in due because it's just

01:09:23   a simple way to get things to be reminded to me and due my favorite feature about due

01:09:29   is it keeps reminding you until you complete it.

01:09:32   Like it just keeps going and keeps going and keeps going

01:09:35   until it's completed or until the time is changed.

01:09:37   I like that app a lot for that.

01:09:39   You can stop me anytime if you have criticism

01:09:43   or questions, Jason.

01:09:44   - No.

01:09:45   - Music, because that's where my music is.

01:09:48   Canary, because that is my home security camera.

01:09:50   I like having that on my home screen

01:09:51   so I can easily jump into it.

01:09:53   I really, really, really like my Canary a lot.

01:09:57   Google maps because I find Google maps to be better than Apple maps in every

01:10:02   single possible way

01:10:03   it is so much better I find in London for point of interest and I do

01:10:08   check into Apple maps every now and then to make sure that I'm right on this

01:10:11   the point of interest data is better the information it has about businesses and

01:10:15   places that I'm going to is better like for example

01:10:19   one of my new favorite features is Google maps will show you when a place is

01:10:23   busy

01:10:25   because whether it's collecting this data from people searching for it or whatever,

01:10:29   however it's collecting it, it shows a little graph of where the peak times are for a restaurant

01:10:34   or something which I like. I have the camera app on my home screen for two reasons. One,

01:10:40   the camera app has always been on my home screen, right, since the original iPhone.

01:10:45   And I also, it serves double duty because it's a way for me to get to my photos too.

01:10:49   So you just tap into the camera app, I can take a picture or I can grab my photos.

01:10:53   Get it off.

01:10:54   No.

01:10:55   Get it off.

01:10:56   If it's locked you can swipe right and if it's unlocked you can swipe up and launch

01:10:59   it from Control Center.

01:11:00   Be like me.

01:11:01   I moved the camera away now.

01:11:03   I don't need it anymore.

01:11:04   Nope.

01:11:05   Nope.

01:11:06   Don't need it.

01:11:07   No, I need it.

01:11:08   Because I honestly, honestly, I forget about these other shortcuts and I tend to unlock

01:11:12   my phone and open the camera app.

01:11:13   Learn, Myke.

01:11:14   Learn.

01:11:15   Grow as a person.

01:11:16   No, double duty.

01:11:17   It says double duty.

01:11:18   You have the Photos app on your home screen.

01:11:20   I have the camera app on mine because I can get to the camera or the photos all within

01:11:25   the app.

01:11:26   By far the most efficient way to launch the Photos app is to buy the camera app.

01:11:29   That's what I find.

01:11:30   Sure, solid, solid rating.

01:11:32   Instagram!

01:11:33   Instagram is there.

01:11:35   That is a social network that I look at photos on.

01:11:39   Fantastical is my calendar app.

01:11:41   I find it to be the best calendar app.

01:11:43   My favorite feature about Fantastical is the natural language entry.

01:11:47   So even though, as I said, and it's on my iPad, we'll get to that shortly, I don't tend

01:11:52   to like the iPad layout in the full view so much.

01:11:55   I can't use anything else because I need the natural language entry for events.

01:12:01   Pcalc.

01:12:02   I love Pcalc.

01:12:04   It is my favorite Calendar application, Calculator application.

01:12:09   Pcalc has a couple of features that I really like a lot that other Calculator apps do not

01:12:15   so it's the one that I go for. I love it too, I just don't use a calculator on my phone

01:12:20   enough to have it on my home screen. I do a lot, that's why it's on my home screen.

01:12:25   I use the calculator on my phone a lot, a lot, and so this is my one of choice. I have

01:12:31   messages there because I get messages like Jason. You've got a one. I have a one. I have

01:12:37   Slack right there next to messages. Do you notice there is not completely but there is

01:12:44   some grouping of things. So camera and Instagram are next to each other, Bear and Notes are

01:12:49   next to each other, Messages and Slack are next to each other. They are grouped purposefully.

01:12:55   Because that's kind of just where that's how that works out in my brain.

01:12:58   Todoist is my task management system of choice right now, which I am very very happy with.

01:13:07   One password is where all my passwords go. Narwhal is my Reddit application. I now subscribe

01:13:13   to like three or four subreddits, which I will go to every now and then. I never see

01:13:20   the reddit homepage because I don't ever want to, it's just not the way that I view reddit

01:13:25   and there's just a few little communities that I enjoy that tend to be pretty okay and

01:13:31   narwhal is why I do them, I think narwhal is the best iOS reddit app that I've found

01:13:35   and used. It's a really really nicely made app. Trello, Trello is an application that

01:13:41   me and Steven use for a few things, with Relay FM related, it's a really nice way to kind

01:13:47   of visually look at things, right, like to have this like visual, I keep saying visually

01:13:52   look and visual view, I can't think of another way to say it, but like a visual representation

01:13:57   of data.

01:13:58   It's a card, it's a card interface, and we actually use this, I use this in a couple

01:14:03   different places, including for the non-profit that I'm on the board for, that it's useful

01:14:07   to have like cards in different stacks and move them around, and it's a good organization

01:14:11   system and it does have a visual representation instead of it just being

01:14:15   kind of like an outline or text in a document it's little cards that you can

01:14:20   move around spatially. And I have workflow because I am an automator not a

01:14:26   programmer. I settled on this Jason as the thing I was talking to Casey about on

01:14:31   analog. I'm not a programmer I'm an automator. I don't use workflow enough to

01:14:37   build workflows to have it visible.

01:14:40   'Cause I use it mostly using existing workflows

01:14:43   that I've built in Share Extensions.

01:14:46   So I just haven't. - Yeah, me too.

01:14:48   But both workflow and IFTTT are on my home screen right now

01:14:52   and they have been for a while

01:14:53   because I am encouraging myself to use them more.

01:14:57   So if I have them on my home screen,

01:14:59   it is a constant reminder for me to be in there

01:15:01   and tinkering and playing around

01:15:03   as I'm trying to get better at this

01:15:05   and think about this stuff more.

01:15:06   So those two applications are on my home screen right now as a way to encourage more activity

01:15:13   in them.

01:15:15   I then have Toggle, the Toggle application, which I have there for some of the reports

01:15:20   and the manual entry stuff because I use my workflow triggers for those.

01:15:25   But I used a toggle app for some report stuff and then the YouTube Studio app which is like

01:15:30   a creators application.

01:15:32   So the issue that I'm having right now is I don't like that those two apps are just

01:15:35   kind of out there on their own. But eventually I will move, I would definitely move off IFTTT

01:15:42   from my home screen and I will probably move, well I will move either toggle or the YouTube

01:15:49   Creator Studio application to the second screen. One of those doesn't need to be there all

01:15:53   the time so we'll shove off but I'm not sure what one that's going to be. Then my

01:15:59   My doc is Tweetbot, Airmail, Chrome and Overcast.

01:16:05   Tweetbot is one of the things I do on my phone the most, is viewing Twitter.

01:16:11   Chrome is my web browser, so that goes there, because I also surf net a lot on my phone.

01:16:17   And Overcast, the majority of audio that I listen to on my phone, which is what it's

01:16:21   a device for, is there.

01:16:22   It's all in there.

01:16:23   So I go into Overcast and get that.

01:16:26   mail is only there because mail has always been in my dock because maybe slack should

01:16:31   be there instead if it was based purely on what the phone is used for right but email

01:16:36   has always had a place there and it works fine for me having it there. You'll also notice

01:16:42   I don't I have the the badge there on the messages aside from slack and todoist nothing

01:16:50   else on my home screen gets badges. They're the only things there that will get badges

01:16:56   on my home screen.

01:16:57   Solid.

01:16:58   Yep. Because I don't like badges. Do you have any other comments or questions about my home

01:17:03   screen or are we good?

01:17:06   I think we're good. Chrome, I don't know if I knew that you used Chrome or not, but that's

01:17:11   fine. People use Chrome.

01:17:12   I like it. I like it. I use Chrome on their desktop and so I use it on iOS because then

01:17:17   all my information sinks over.

01:17:19   make sense. Then my iPad, again I'll put a link in the show notes to where I got the

01:17:25   wallpaper, it's one of Steven's photos of one of his many iMacs. So my iPad, okay so

01:17:31   I've used a 12.9 here because both of my iPads differ, but for no specific reason, because

01:17:39   I really don't tap on the icons on my home screen of my iPad very much, and therefore

01:17:49   I basically have everything I use on my iPad on the first screen.

01:17:54   Everything that's on the second screen are apps that will eventually be added to folders

01:17:57   or deleted.

01:17:58   They're like apps that I'm trying out.

01:18:00   I basically have everything on my home screen of my iPad because I launch everything typically

01:18:07   from Spotlight.

01:18:09   So there aren't, I mean basically it's all of the apps that you've seen already are there

01:18:14   and then all of the stuff that's in folders is in stuff that's in folders on my second

01:18:18   and third screen of my iPhone or you know, my second screen of my iPhone.

01:18:22   Like it's all.

01:18:23   It's all the same apps, right,

01:18:26   but they're just in slightly different configurations or hidden away.

01:18:28   But I don't really know where anything is on my iPad.

01:18:33   Like it's not because I never tap the icons.

01:18:35   I'm always opening from a spotlight.

01:18:39   So for me, like sense, I just it's it's it's just everything.

01:18:43   It's all on the one screen.

01:18:45   and my 9.7 is organized completely differently for no reason. It's just where it got organized

01:18:51   to when I set it up. Because I always have keyboards attached to my iPads and I use Spotlight

01:18:58   to always open stuff. I mean, if it's not on my home screen on my iPhone, I am using

01:19:04   Spotlight too, but I do tap the icons on the home screen on my iPhone. So yeah, that's

01:19:09   kind of my devices. Do you have any thoughts on my iPad there?

01:19:13   No, I think it's interesting that you're so search-centric on the iPad. I'm not, because

01:19:18   I'm not always—at a keyboard, in fact, like I think I've said on this show, I'm like

01:19:22   90% of my iPad use is not with a keyboard attached, because I'm sitting in bed or on

01:19:27   the couch or whatever, and I'm just—I've just got my iPad there, and so I want the

01:19:31   stuff—I want quick access to the stuff that I use all the time, and it's mostly reading

01:19:34   and Twitter and Slack and stuff like that, and web browser.

01:19:39   So they are our home screens and I look forward to people sending us theirs which tends to

01:19:44   be what happens when you show off your home screen.

01:19:46   Ah.

01:19:47   So there you go.

01:19:48   I dread it but that's okay send them in.

01:19:50   I don't dread it I like seeing it.

01:19:53   I also will not look forward to but await, I will await the criticism.

01:20:00   Judgment yeah people are judgy.

01:20:02   Yeah that we will receive for this.

01:20:05   Yeah I don't want to hear about it.

01:20:06   That's just how it is.

01:20:07   Don't email me.

01:20:08   gonna email you. Actually don't email us, actually. You can tweet at us, that's fine.

01:20:12   Don't email, it's fine. Send tweets.

01:20:14   No, I mean, I literally, if you're going to tell me I'm doing it wrong, I literally don't

01:20:22   want to hear it because I don't care, because I'm doing it exactly right for me.

01:20:27   Is that why you tell me I should change the camera app?

01:20:30   Well, I mean, I see what you're, I will, the reason I tell you that, Myke, is because I

01:20:35   I was you, I was learn from my,

01:20:38   I went through that process.

01:20:40   I used to have only the camera app and I said,

01:20:42   oh, well I can get to the photos from the camera app.

01:20:45   And then I realized that with the swipe on the lock screen

01:20:48   and it being in the control center,

01:20:50   it was dumb to have the camera app on there

01:20:52   and it got demoted.

01:20:53   - Yeah, but I know that. - So I'm saying be like me.

01:20:55   - Right, I know that those things are there.

01:20:57   - I know that they're there. - It's not how I work, Jason.

01:20:59   - I know, but I have converted

01:21:01   and I can tell you it's a nice place over here.

01:21:04   But it's all I'd be doing. No. I'm not gonna do it. No one can change my mind on this.

01:21:12   I am resolved to it.

01:21:13   Myke was wrong.

01:21:16   Myke was making a peculiar choice.

01:21:17   Oh, you couldn't resist, could you?

01:21:19   Is the new, is the new, uh, hashtag.

01:21:22   Myke, #MykeWasMakingAWearChoice.

01:21:24   Myke could be Myke-ing.

01:21:25   Myke, it's gotta be Myke-ing.

01:21:27   Today's show is brought to you by Eero. These days, everything in our homes requires an

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01:21:53   you know my canary security camera that needs wi-fi. We were cleaning yesterday and I accidentally

01:22:01   turned off a switch that was connected to my router, my Wi-Fi router.

01:22:10   And I couldn't turn my lights on and off.

01:22:14   We didn't know, right?

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01:24:27   Best Buy or Amazon to get ero at its new lower price thank you so much to

01:24:33   ero for their continued support of this show and Relay FM. Ask upgrade time

01:24:42   Matthew wants to know, I know, I really gave it some today, what 5k app is Jason

01:24:49   using? You mentioned last week that you were used doing 5k training again. I'm

01:24:54   running again, yeah, I'm using an app called Run 5k, which is, there are two of

01:24:59   them, it's the one with the dark icon, I will put a link in the show

01:25:05   notes. It's not perfect but it's okay. I used to use Couch to 5k which is good

01:25:14   because it's got like some pre-recorded audio whereas this is using text-to-

01:25:18   speech so it's like the Siri voice is telling you to run so it's like run now.

01:25:23   I hate that, I hate that. But the thing I like about it is it is a

01:25:29   pre-programmed course basically of like day one you do this or the three run

01:25:36   three days a week and it's like week one day two week one day three and you just

01:25:41   say I'm doing this now and it tells you warm up for five minutes and then it

01:25:44   says okay now run and then it says now walk now run and you just do it and it

01:25:49   great it gradually raises up your your running ability so I've done this a

01:25:55   a couple of times before, and then the winter comes

01:25:58   and I stopped running and now I'm back at it.

01:26:00   - It's like a nice Apple Watch app as well.

01:26:02   - The Apple Watch app is way better.

01:26:04   It's now using, as far as I can tell,

01:26:06   it's using the watchOS 3 stuff that lets it stay forward.

01:26:09   One of the problems with a lot of these Apple Watch apps

01:26:11   on these things were it wouldn't stick around,

01:26:14   or you had to change the settings to make it stick around.

01:26:16   And then watchOS 3, they added the ability

01:26:18   for fitness apps to stay in the foreground

01:26:20   when they're active.

01:26:22   - Yeah, it looks like from the screenshots,

01:26:23   it's also pulling the heart rate information,

01:26:25   which I think is an OS3 thing as well.

01:26:27   - Yeah, so I can, while I'm running,

01:26:30   I can flip open my wrist.

01:26:33   I've flipped the Apple Watch over while I'm running

01:26:35   and look at it and it's showing me how,

01:26:38   basically that's the, oh God,

01:26:39   how much longer do I have to keep doing this?

01:26:42   Or, oh God, how much longer do I have

01:26:45   until I have to start running again?

01:26:47   But it's very useful to have that

01:26:48   'cause I don't have to pull my phone out of my pocket

01:26:50   to do that.

01:26:52   and it'll just, and it gives me audio cues

01:26:55   over my music or podcast that I listen to when I'm running.

01:26:58   So it's not the best app in the world,

01:27:01   but I tried a bunch of them

01:27:02   and this is the one that I've settled on.

01:27:04   - So I really like the way the UI looks.

01:27:06   It looks very nice and clean.

01:27:07   I don't like the look of the icon though.

01:27:09   - Yeah, it's not great.

01:27:11   It syncs with HealthKit too, which is nice.

01:27:12   So all of my exercises actually show up

01:27:15   in the fitness app and stuff, which is cool.

01:27:17   That's what I want.

01:27:17   I want to get credit for this everywhere.

01:27:20   - Yeah, no doubt.

01:27:22   You're gonna do it, you want it everywhere, all over the place.

01:27:24   Exercise, you want all that, you want to close those rings.

01:27:27   - Damn right.

01:27:29   - All right, so next up we have from,

01:27:33   I'm gonna say Nantles, Nantles, N-A-N-T-L-Y-S.

01:27:37   Just read Jason's AirPods simplicity article.

01:27:41   Do you think a spinning base, so the little metal part

01:27:44   on the bottom of the AirPods could be a way

01:27:47   to include volume control?

01:27:50   - Yeah, it adds complexity to the design.

01:27:54   And so that's the question.

01:27:55   I'm sure Apple considered something like that.

01:27:56   I wrote a piece for Macworld about how the AirPods

01:28:00   show the value of simplicity of Apple's design,

01:28:03   but also how it can be frustrating.

01:28:04   And you can add complications,

01:28:06   but be careful what you ask for because somebody,

01:28:10   I think Neil Seibert tweeted out like the instruction manual

01:28:14   for the Bragi Dash.

01:28:17   And it's like, you know, tap twice to do this,

01:28:19   tap three times like yeah I have a problem with the criticism of that like

01:28:23   how many of those features are built into a multitude of clicks on the

01:28:29   clicker of the iPhone headset I would say like a vast majority of those are

01:28:36   built in to some applications? No because you have a lot of like it's actually having you do

01:28:42   clicks to move modes and stuff like from from the the this fitness mode to this

01:28:48   fitness mode and like over here on the left, you do this.

01:28:51   And on the right, you do that.

01:28:52   Well, you don't have to, but my point was

01:28:54   that once you go past the simplicity of a couple of clicks,

01:28:58   you are opening the door to miss clicks,

01:29:01   misunderstandings by, you know, you click three times,

01:29:05   but it only went twice or you, you know, you, you only,

01:29:08   you wanted to do two clicks, but it only registered once.

01:29:11   It adds the more complexity it adds, it adds more power,

01:29:13   but it also adds more complexity and that can be not as good.

01:29:17   And I, you know, again, I'm not saying like,

01:29:19   it's not unreasonable that it looks like that,

01:29:22   but it does show you that the ramp up to explain to somebody

01:29:25   how they use their headphones is more

01:29:28   when you add stuff like that

01:29:29   and you risk misunderstanding it.

01:29:32   So- - Yeah, that makes sense.

01:29:34   - It's like, you know, hey, I wrote in my review

01:29:37   that I wish that it did triple click

01:29:38   or had different commands for the left and the right.

01:29:40   But I also appreciate the fact that everything you do

01:29:44   that does that, you're adding the potential for users

01:29:46   to misunderstand them, or you're hiding those features away

01:29:49   and turning them off by default,

01:29:50   in which case, why did we do all that work

01:29:52   to have them be turned off by default?

01:29:54   And Siri has its issues too, don't get me started.

01:29:56   But this is an interesting idea, I thought about that for,

01:30:01   could you put something that's touch sensitive in there,

01:30:03   or could you put something

01:30:04   that's a physical moving something,

01:30:06   like the Apple Watch has the little spinning crown,

01:30:11   and do something where you could just grab the tip

01:30:14   of the AirPod and turn it a little bit to adjust the volume.

01:30:19   And that would be great.

01:30:21   I hope Apple is considering simple gestures

01:30:24   that would allow you to do stuff

01:30:25   that you probably don't wanna go to another device to do,

01:30:27   like adjusting the volume to make it a little quieter

01:30:30   or a little louder.

01:30:31   Could you do that through some simple gesture

01:30:33   and a spin gesture, whether it was a real spinning base

01:30:36   or whether it was just kind of a touch sensitive area

01:30:39   that you feel like you're turning a volume knob,

01:30:42   even though you're not.

01:30:43   either way could be a great user interface interaction that would make a lot more sense

01:30:48   than how can we stack in a bunch of different button tap sequences in order to increase

01:30:54   the volume because I don't think that would be good at all.

01:30:58   Sam asked, "Is it possible to connect a webcam to an iOS device and be able to view or record

01:31:04   the video?" I don't think so. I don't think so. I've never come across this. I've never

01:31:10   come across it Sam I'm afraid I don't think you can do that. The answer is you buy a Wi-Fi

01:31:15   webcam and it's attached to a cloud service and you do it that way but like to directly

01:31:20   connect to an iOS device and view and record video I don't think this is something that

01:31:26   you can do. I would say just going back one question on the AirPods thing because I just

01:31:32   thought, you know like having that little spinny base I think the problem would be I

01:31:35   would be like flicking out my ears all the time. Like I'd be kind of turn it up and like

01:31:39   just knock it straight out of my ear. Could be, but I mean I have to reach up there

01:31:44   and double tap on it to invoke Siri or to play and pause.

01:31:48   Yeah, but tapping is like you're forcing it into the ear. If you're twisting it, you're

01:31:52   making a motion onto a part where the center of gravity might go off.

01:31:58   I'm skeptical of that, but that's why we, you know, if we're Apple product designers,

01:32:03   that's why we product test that, right? Yeah.

01:32:07   Rodrigo asked, "Do either of you use the Logic Remote app on your iPhone or iPad when

01:32:12   editing?" No. I forget this thing exists all the time, and I'm fine without it.

01:32:17   It strikes me as being something that is built for music producers, who want to have that

01:32:24   remote to slide their little volumes up and down as they're listening to a mix of something.

01:32:31   It seems to me the stuff that's on it is not stuff that I find valuable at all.

01:32:35   - Yeah, it's not really like the touch bar or anything,

01:32:39   you know, where like they could be shortcuts there or stuff.

01:32:43   I don't think it's- - I've tried it a few times.

01:32:45   It's possible that it could do something that I would use,

01:32:47   but at this point it does not do anything that I could use

01:32:51   to be more efficient at editing podcasts, unfortunately.

01:32:56   And it's not for us, right?

01:32:58   I mean, I think it really is built

01:33:00   for a very specific professional music producer audience.

01:33:04   Kevin asked, "How many caffeinated beverages do you have a day?"

01:33:07   - Oh, well, I have a cup or two of tea

01:33:16   and often a can of soda.

01:33:21   I'm trying to reduce my caffeine intake,

01:33:24   but it is also a very helpful thing for me.

01:33:27   But something like that.

01:33:30   We make a pot of tea in the morning,

01:33:32   which makes essentially like two small cups of tea for me.

01:33:35   And then I will usually have a soda either with lunch or in the afternoon.

01:33:39   And that's about it. About you.

01:33:41   Uh, Kathy wants to know what kind of tea?

01:33:44   Oh, just, uh, English breakfast, Irish breakfast, just black,

01:33:49   black caffeinated tea.

01:33:50   I have one or sometimes two, not every day,

01:33:55   two cups of coffee a day. That's all I have caffeine wise.

01:33:59   that tends to be it. I don't drink soda very much, I enjoy it but just don't drink it very

01:34:03   much. Like not on like a daily basis. I used to but not anymore. But yeah I'll have at

01:34:10   least one cup of coffee in the morning and then sometimes one in the afternoon before

01:34:14   I start recording shows. I've had two coffees today for example.

01:34:17   Yeah there you go. And I've had two small cups of tea.

01:34:22   And finally today Brent wrote in and said "I have now listened to Upgrade, ATP, Cortex

01:34:27   and hello internet twice what should I re-listen to when I'm all caught up on my shows?

01:34:33   So two just very simple suggestions Brent, just go to relay.fm/shows or the incomparable.com/shows

01:34:41   and there are lots of shows there that you can pick from and considering to the shows

01:34:46   that you already listened to Brent I think there will be, they're all good shows Brent

01:34:50   and I think that there will be reference acknowledged.

01:34:55   Well, seeing that he listens to ATP and Cortex, I immediately think that he should probably

01:34:59   listen to Reconcilable Differences.

01:35:01   Yep.

01:35:02   Yep, I think so.

01:35:03   I think that's a good show.

01:35:06   You know, yeah, all the great shows is the answer.

01:35:09   Relay and Incomparable have shows.

01:35:11   It depends on what strikes your fancy.

01:35:14   I keep hearing from people who have been listening to Total Party Kill, which is our D&D podcast,

01:35:19   because they think it's fun and they will re-listen to it, which blows me away because

01:35:23   I participated and then edited some of the episodes and have not listened since, but

01:35:28   people go back and listen to those again. And I'll put in a plug for the Incomparable

01:35:32   Game Show because it is incredibly fun and there's some episodes there that you can listen

01:35:36   to. It's not a huge back catalogue, but it's okay. And yeah, so those are mine. What do

01:35:41   you have?

01:35:42   I will make one specific recommendation to a show that I have just come across, which

01:35:46   is a very popular show and is like 347 episodes in and I knew existed but never listened to

01:35:51   to it, but I started listening to it and I love it.

01:35:54   And it's my brother, my brother and me.

01:35:56   And it's the McElroy brothers who you may know from Polygon

01:35:59   or from the Adventure Zone or a million other podcasts.

01:36:02   They just made a web TV show on Seeso,

01:36:07   which is my brother and my brother and me turned to TV.

01:36:10   I have enjoyed their work on their video stuff

01:36:13   that they've been playing on for a while.

01:36:15   I'm a big fan of like,

01:36:18   I'm a big fan of Carboys and Monster Factory

01:36:22   and Touch the Skyrim and all of the silly,

01:36:24   fun video game related stuff that they make,

01:36:27   so I decided to check out My Brother, My Brother and Me

01:36:29   and I am already hooked on it.

01:36:31   I'm doing like what I did for the Flop House

01:36:33   and I listened to one episode,

01:36:35   then I went back and listened to a bunch.

01:36:37   Now I'm going back further and listening through,

01:36:39   so I'm enjoying that a lot,

01:36:42   so I recommend My Brother, My Brother and Me.

01:36:44   That is, I'm gonna say right now, Jason,

01:36:47   It's gonna be my early pick, I think, for podcasts.

01:36:52   - Podcast of the year?

01:36:53   - Podcast of the year, yeah.

01:36:54   It's my early pick for "Upgradey."

01:36:56   - Well, you've made Brian Hamilton very happy

01:36:58   'cause he loves that podcast.

01:36:59   - I mentioned this show on analog

01:37:02   and I've had a few people already today tell me

01:37:05   how excited they are that I listen to this show as well.

01:37:08   It's funny.

01:37:09   I love it when that sort of stuff happens,

01:37:10   but I feel it too.

01:37:11   Like when somebody that you listen to

01:37:14   says that they listen to another show that you like,

01:37:16   like oh crossing the street so I'm I'm listening to the adventure zone a little

01:37:20   bit now and that that's sort of my that's gonna be my entry into macarola

01:37:25   yeah I think if you're enjoying I I expect I will move to the adventure

01:37:29   zone soon I reckon if you enjoy that you probably enjoy my brother my brother and

01:37:33   me because the macarola comedy is the same everywhere right like they they

01:37:40   have a style of comedy which if you enjoy you will probably enjoy anything

01:37:44   thing that they do and I think it all comes from my brother my brother and me

01:37:49   because I think that's the thing that they've been doing together for the

01:37:51   longest they're like as I said a 347 episodes in it's a very long-running

01:37:56   show so I expect that a lot of it came from from that so I reckon if you like

01:38:03   it if you like that if you like the adventure so you'll probably quite enjoy

01:38:07   enjoy that one too give it a give it a go give it a go all right thank you so

01:38:14   Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Upgrade. If you want to send in questions

01:38:18   for me and Jason to answer on the show, send them in with the hashtag #askupgrade. I feel

01:38:23   like I need some kind of better system to request questions for the beginning and how

01:38:27   they will be differentiated, but I will work that out later. Just tweet them to me, I am

01:38:32   @imike, for a question. You would like me to ask Jason to begin the show, and then once

01:38:38   I've got a sense of if that's going to be a thing, maybe I'll work out a secondary hashtag

01:38:43   for that. Who knows Jason Snell. But if you ask a question, I want to ask him, you'll

01:38:48   be credited in the beginning of the show as asking the question. So go ahead and send

01:38:53   those to me over Twitter. Indicate to me that it's some kind of question for Jason. I don't

01:38:58   know how you do this. It's up to you, Upgradients, to help me shape this as a thing. You can

01:39:03   find Jason online at TheIncomparable.com and SixColors.com and he is @JSnell on Twitter,

01:39:09   S-N-E-double L. Of course Jason hosts as well as this show a fine selection of shows at

01:39:14   Real AFM including Clockwise, Free Agents, and Liftoff. I got them all right?

01:39:20   I think so.

01:39:21   I think so. Who knows? All the great shows. Thanks to our sponsors this week, Eero, Fresh

01:39:27   Books, and Encapsula. Most of all, thank you for listening and we'll be back next time.

01:39:32   Until then, say goodbye Jason Snow.

01:39:35   Still cloudy here Myke.

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