129: Disneyland for Developers


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:10   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade Episode 129. Today's show is brought to you by Text

00:00:16   Expander from Smile, Eero, Encapsular, and Squarespace. My name is Myke Hurley. I am

00:00:21   joined by Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:23   Hello Myke Hurley, how are you?

00:00:26   I'm very good Mr. Jason Snell, how are you?

00:00:28   Good, good. It's more rain. We've got the atmospheric river here. Have you heard about

00:00:34   the atmospheric river?

00:00:36   I don't know that phrase at all, but I knew that there was rain in California.

00:00:40   Basically it's just referring to, imagine a giant like hose of water from the tropics

00:00:46   spraying all over California.

00:00:48   That's nice of it.

00:00:50   That's what we have.

00:00:51   The tropics are being very good to you, I guess.

00:00:54   It's fine. It's good. Yeah.

00:00:55   Because you need the rain, right, in San Francisco?

00:00:57   need the rain. We've had, this is the wettest year we've had in a very long time and it

00:01:02   follows several of the driest years we've had in a very long time.

00:01:05   So you might be able to use your hose pipe in the summer, that'd be nice.

00:01:09   I might be able to plant some things, I think I won't, but it's possible. Yeah, anything's

00:01:13   possible.

00:01:14   You don't have the excuse anymore. You know, it's like, "Oh, I can't look after garden

00:01:18   plants because they can't water them."

00:01:20   They're keeping a lot of the drought restrictions in place because the idea is that there will

00:01:24   be wet years and there will be really dry years and so you want to just sort of not

00:01:27   use a lot of water regardless because you need to save the water yeah for when it's

00:01:33   dry but yeah yeah I'll water a plant here and there that'll be great I'll flush my toilet

00:01:39   whoo fancy.

00:01:41   Jared; There is a theme to this week's follow-up, the theme is me. Every piece of follow-up

00:01:47   today is related to me in some way.

00:01:50   Interesting. I thought you were gonna say there's a we've got a theme song for the follow-up this

00:01:54   And any mics got the follow-up it's all about Myke follow-up. There you go. That's all we needed

00:02:01   I picked up one of those x1 mice the Citrix mouse thing so you can use it with all your Citrix

00:02:07   Well, this is what I thought right like someone I was looking at look at the Citrix page

00:02:12   It just kind of said that you had to be using some kind of Citrix corporate environment

00:02:16   But then Jay travels on Twitter

00:02:17   to let me know about a client called Jump Desktop,

00:02:20   which is just like a, you put the client on your Mac,

00:02:23   you download the iOS app,

00:02:24   and then you can connect to your Mac, right?

00:02:26   Like something like screens or something like that,

00:02:27   just like a regular kind of VNC application.

00:02:31   So when I found out about this,

00:02:32   and Jump Desktop explicitly supports these mice,

00:02:36   I picked up one of the mice.

00:02:38   I bought it from Citrix directly,

00:02:39   which felt like super corporate.

00:02:41   Like it is the only thing that I can remember

00:02:46   bought recently that explicitly had a screen to ask for my VAT information

00:02:52   which is hilarious so it's like it's super businessy so it came and basically

00:02:58   it works perfectly well so I connected to my Mac on my iPad it's super weird

00:03:03   and kind of awesome like I'm able to use a mouse and move the mouse around and I

00:03:09   can just interact with my Mac on my iPad as I was expected the lag isn't that bad

00:03:15   It's way better than I would have thought I tried editing a podcast in it just to see what that would be like

00:03:20   The problem that I had was like a lack of gestures like I couldn't very easily pan around and swipe around

00:03:28   Because the mouse isn't like functional enough to have all like the the crazy score wheels and obviously there was no trackpad

00:03:36   but right

00:03:38   Just so I used it today because there's this this is one thing I constantly complain about this

00:03:42   There's like a set of emails that I need to send once a week that require me to pull some

00:03:47   fields out of a Google Sheet and email them to people.

00:03:49   So I have to do this on my Mac because I need rich text support so it keeps the table formatting.

00:03:55   So today I just grabbed the mouse and I opened my iPad.

00:03:58   It was purely for a test and I was able to do it all and send all those emails out.

00:04:02   So this is very interesting to me.

00:04:04   I mean, if I was the sort of person that needed a Mac for some weird application of some description

00:04:11   and was only kind of holding onto that but was an iPad person like I would

00:04:15   totally go with like a headless Mac Mini put it in a closet and use this mouse to

00:04:19   connect to it like if all I was using my Mac for was just like a weirdo

00:04:24   application that only works on the Mac that's for my work and also like to send

00:04:28   these emails that need this rich text then now that's what I would go do

00:04:31   because this works perfectly well like I just I open up the first thing I do open

00:04:36   system preferences and adjust the screen resolution because the 5k iMac on the iPad, everything

00:04:45   is minuscule. So like with the settings I have, so to make every limb a little bit bigger

00:04:49   and then it works perfectly fine. Like I was really super surprised at how well it worked

00:04:53   and I'm kind of a little bit disappointed that like I couldn't get logic to work the

00:04:58   way that I want it because it was like, oh, I may never need to bring a Mac on the road

00:05:02   to edit a show like imagine that. I will note that I kind of like when I was digging around

00:05:08   I was looking up at screens. Screens is my current favorite of these applications just

00:05:13   for like general stuff and I was kind of digging around and I spoke to Luke and he is aware

00:05:20   of these mice but isn't it isn't very high on his list right now because not a lot of

00:05:24   people have them obviously but what he did mention to me which I'd completely forgotten

00:05:27   about is there is an in-app purchase in screens to turn a secondary device into a trackpad.

00:05:33   So like an iPhone. Yeah. So similar kind of deal really, you know, like I could use my

00:05:39   iPhone as a trackpad on my iPad, you know, like iPhones trackpad and screens on my iPad.

00:05:45   So that's pretty bad. But it is but it's but so is using a mouse with your iPad. It's all

00:05:51   It's just depending on what you're looking for.

00:05:54   But I was, I'm very surprised at how well this works, and I'm thinking about like, what

00:06:01   other things do I do on my Mac that maybe I don't need to do, because this mouse works

00:06:06   surprisingly well.

00:06:07   Like, I've never really, I've always been one to turn my iMac off, but maybe I won't

00:06:12   do that so much anymore, because I don't necessarily need to be in the office to use it.

00:06:16   Well, I do have that happen with screens, the way I use it.

00:06:19   I have a Mac Mini server, so I do turn my iMac off, but the Mac Mini server is always

00:06:23   on, and I will occasionally from a remote location. I did this when I was in Hawaii.

00:06:27   I needed to do something that I realized, like, I didn't bring a file with me or something

00:06:31   like that, but it was on the Mac, and so I ended up, you know, using the screens to control

00:06:37   my Mac Mini to get the thing where I needed it to be so that I could get it on my iPad.

00:06:41   And it was just, you know, it is convenient to have it there. I would say my feeling about

00:06:48   these remote screen interfaces is, in my experience, it's always been sort of a last resort, sort

00:06:54   of like how emulation was back in the old pre-Intel days and the PowerPC days where

00:07:00   it's like, if you need to run Windows software on a Mac, you can do it, but you would never

00:07:05   choose to do it unless there was no other recourse. And that's how I sort of feel about

00:07:10   this. But hey, you know, when you and Marco were talking, see, it's almost like I'm segueing

00:07:17   into our next bit of follow-up. When you and Marco were talking about the iPad and the

00:07:20   Mac, one of the things you mentioned in that conversation was the walls. Like, if you hit

00:07:25   a wall and you can't, there's something you can't do on the iPad. One way to get past

00:07:32   the walls is to have a window into some other computer somewhere, whether it's a virtual

00:07:38   Windows desktop or it's a Mac server or it's a terminal SSHing to a Unix system, there

00:07:47   are -- that's one way to get around the walls in addition to things like web services. So

00:07:55   this can be a piece of the puzzle to, for example, traveling with an iPad. Not like

00:08:00   not having a Mac, but not traveling with it, but having it available in an emergency case.

00:08:04   Because here's the thing, this is just a straight up Bluetooth device.

00:08:07   Right, like, all I'm doing is connecting this mouse via Bluetooth.

00:08:11   So it is exactly that.

00:08:13   Any developer in theory could build this support in.

00:08:15   That is the thing that bugs me about this, and this is, I'm gonna come back to that thing

00:08:21   that I've been complaining about for a while now, which is, since Apple has broken the

00:08:25   idea that there's no cursor, because, in iOS, because you can 3D touch on the iPhone to

00:08:34   get that cursor for text selection and insertion.

00:08:38   And you can two fingers down on the iPad to do it.

00:08:41   Since they've already done there,

00:08:43   that's like the seal is broken.

00:08:46   Just support Bluetooth pointing devices.

00:08:50   It's not gonna put a cursor on anyone's screen,

00:08:52   that's not gonna happen.

00:08:53   But if you support Bluetooth pointing devices,

00:08:55   it means that apps that could use it for text selection

00:08:59   or for moving a cursor remotely can do it.

00:09:01   Nobody else is gonna use it for anything

00:09:03   that's fine. You know, you can have it be that the default state of that device is that

00:09:08   it doesn't seem to do anything, but if you're in a text editing interface that works with

00:09:12   the two fingers down to the 3D touch, that it'll also work with a trackpad that you can

00:09:17   select text and move it around. Or drive a mouse in a VNC app. Like, why not do that?

00:09:23   Why not do that and have it be standard so that every app can just say, "Yes, I want

00:09:27   to register that device and use it if you're Luke and you're doing screens." Like, yes,

00:09:33   we will support Bluetooth pointing devices done, not like we have to do something weird

00:09:37   to support this strange Citrix mouse.

00:09:39   Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it's just a thing that you can do. I agree with that.

00:09:42   Yeah, and I don't think it breaks -- I mean, the argument is iOS doesn't need a pointing

00:09:47   device. It's like, well, it doesn't need one, but, you know, it already has an IBM cursor

00:09:49   for text selection, so just let people do it optionally. No one else -- it will not

00:09:53   break it. If you don't have one of those, you will never -- nothing is broken in iOS

00:09:58   doing this, but some things could be made way better by offering it as an option to

00:10:03   people who care. So I've actually added that one back to my iOS 11 wish list. It's like,

00:10:09   why not? What does it hurt to do that? And this is a great example of what it helps.

00:10:14   Yeah, there are cases. There are definitely cases.

00:10:16   Yeah, there are not a lot, but there are some. There are some. We found two, right? We found

00:10:21   two good ones, and there are probably a few more, but those are two really good ones that

00:10:24   our text selection and driving a cursor on a remote screen.

00:10:29   So we mentioned it last week, Jason just alluded to it, me and Marco went head to head on our

00:10:34   discussion about the future of computing. It's a real AFMB side, I put a link in the

00:10:39   show notes to it if you want to go and find it and take a listen. I think it was a good

00:10:43   discussion, we didn't really come to much of a resolution but I don't think we expected

00:10:48   to, but we kind of surprised each other I think about where we ended up with it by the

00:10:54   the end of the discussion. So I think it's worth checking out. And as we were joking,

00:11:00   we can now finally stop talking about it. Now we've come together, we don't need to

00:11:04   talk about it anymore.

00:11:06   You guys did the hard work of, I think in the end, boiling it down to your worldviews

00:11:12   and the way you're using the terms, which was always my frustration in hearing conversations

00:11:17   about this is everybody was arguing something slightly different. And so it seemed like

00:11:22   they were at loggerheads when in fact they might actually have been agreeing, but they

00:11:25   were, they were, you know, they were using different terms. So it sounded like they were

00:11:28   disagreeing. So you guys, you guys seem to have a very similar vision about what a computing

00:11:34   device of, uh, you know, I was using in my Mac world article, like 2025, what a future

00:11:39   computing device is like, and then it's just a question of where do we, you know, what

00:11:44   device leads there. And, you know, my, my view is still that the iPad is far more likely

00:11:50   to lead there because that's Apple's next generation. Apple doesn't need a Copeland

00:11:54   2025, kind of, you know, a new operating system for 2025. They've got one. It's iOS. iOS is

00:12:01   Apple's next generation operating system. So if Apple's going to design the computer

00:12:05   of the future for a decade out, then I think it's going to be the iPad, based on what we

00:12:11   now think of as the iPad anyway, because it's far more likely that'll be iOS than some retrofitted

00:12:17   version of Mac OS. But, you know, I can see all the sides of it. And the other thing I

00:12:21   would say about what Marco said is, I think one of his overriding concerns is he is a

00:12:27   developer, right? He is a developer, and he's very concerned about, like, how do I get my

00:12:32   work done as the future progresses? And, you know, for him, it's going to be a very long

00:12:38   time before he could possibly get his work done on a system based on an iPad. There are

00:12:44   a lot of steps that have to go into it to get to that point. And so I get why he is

00:12:49   much more resistant to that idea because for him he can't be a person to make that move

00:12:54   because he's got some of the strictest requirements of anybody.

00:13:00   If you remember my long-term saga now with my bridge keyboard, right, so they sent me

00:13:06   another one. It wasn't working. Exact same problem. Yeah, same thing that happened to

00:13:11   So I have sent it back to them and I've asked for a full refund. They were very apologetic

00:13:17   It seems like we've got confirmation now that what they did was they had a group of 12.9

00:13:23   keyboards that were a bad batch and they

00:13:26   What's frustrating to me is that you know, I went through this you went through this

00:13:32   They seem to acknowledge that it's an issue

00:13:34   But they they you know

00:13:36   They knew it was an issue before and they seem to have been unable or unwilling to pull those units

00:13:43   off the market because they don't work or to test them to see that they don't work.

00:13:49   - It's like I asked them, do you test them before they go out? This is clearly an issue.

00:13:54   And they were like, we don't.

00:13:56   - Yeah, and you know that this is an issue. You should pull all of them and test all of them. And

00:13:59   I think you sent me that email that they sent you. It may be now that they've pulled all of

00:14:03   them from their UK store like they've had them all shipped back but but yeah this is this is why when

00:14:09   people ask me and when I wrote that article I basically said well I got one that works and I

00:14:13   really like it but you know it I had two that didn't work and you had two that didn't work and

00:14:22   so I don't you know that so I can't really give it a recommendation I can tell you that I've got

00:14:26   one that works and it's pretty nice but you know and their customer service was nice but the bottom

00:14:31   line is I had this I do you know ship things get a box ship it back get a box

00:14:36   ship it back get a box to get it to work right it's ridiculous yeah I just say

00:14:41   like I know that you really like it and I can see why but if you're thinking

00:14:45   about it I cannot right now at all recommend that anybody buy this product

00:14:49   because yeah it is it's insane like I've had two of them yeah because because

00:14:56   they they had a they've had a severe production problem with their with their

00:15:01   at least the 12.9 that, you know,

00:15:04   and there are bad ones out there

00:15:05   and they didn't seem to test them.

00:15:07   - Yeah, just between me, you and Federico,

00:15:09   three people who had five broken ones.

00:15:12   - Yeah.

00:15:13   - So, and it's the exact same problem of all of them.

00:15:15   Like they just miss key presses.

00:15:17   - The one that I got that worked

00:15:18   was literally the guy in customer service

00:15:19   at the headquarters of Bridge said,

00:15:21   "I have one right here.

00:15:22   "I have just tested it.

00:15:24   "It works fine.

00:15:25   "I am sending it to you now."

00:15:27   Like that was what it took.

00:15:28   The warehouse was full of the bad ones.

00:15:30   And it's just, yeah, at some point you just gotta,

00:15:32   I mean, I feel bad for them, but what are they gonna do?

00:15:34   They're gonna keep shipping those things out to people,

00:15:36   having them be broken and then paying to ship them back.

00:15:38   It's like, what is going on there?

00:15:42   So yeah, it's unfortunate because I think it's got a lot

00:15:45   going for it in terms of the technology,

00:15:47   the design of the clips and the fact that you can pivot it

00:15:51   to any angle, I think the industrial design

00:15:53   of it's really good, but you know, it's a keyboard.

00:15:56   You have to type on it.

00:15:57   if it drops letters, it's a complete failure.

00:16:00   So yeah, I think until they,

00:16:05   maybe they'll get their act together,

00:16:06   maybe they will replace all these products

00:16:08   and then they'll make a statement or something like that.

00:16:10   But right now, yeah, it's very hard to suggest to anybody

00:16:13   that they go through this cycle of, you know,

00:16:16   hoping that they get one that's functional.

00:16:18   - Last quick thing, Relay FM is currently hiring.

00:16:23   We are looking for a part-time

00:16:25   remote administrative assistant to help us out with some of the things that we do here

00:16:30   at Relay FM. We have some information up at relay.fm/jobs. We are accepting cover letters

00:16:38   and resumes up until February 24th. We've had quite a few great applications so we're

00:16:45   just going to be opening up until Friday this week. So if you're interested please take

00:16:49   a look and maybe send some stuff in and never know where it might go. So thank you.

00:16:56   Alright this week's episode is brought to you by TextExpander from SMILE. TextExpander

00:17:02   for teams multiplies productivity. It gives you shared knowledge and a shared knowledge

00:17:07   base that you're able to draw from. That everybody in your team can get together to draw from.

00:17:13   Because TextExpander helps everyone communicate quickly and accurately. Look imagine a world

00:17:18   in which everybody in your team is able to send replies which are worded by the best

00:17:24   writers.

00:17:25   Maybe you have a copywriter and they have written some replies that would be perfect

00:17:29   to send out to all of your customers.

00:17:31   Well imagine if everybody at their fingertips had all of them and all ready to send out

00:17:36   whenever they wanted.

00:17:37   All you need to do is set these replies up once and you can ensure consistency every

00:17:42   time and if something needs to be updated, it's updated and then it's updated for everyone.

00:17:47   that all of this text is immediately accessible and searchable through simple abbreviations

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00:18:16   for increasing productivity, communication, and consistency.

00:18:20   I just mentioned that we're looking to hire someone, right?

00:18:23   So I'm gonna have somebody working with me.

00:18:25   TextExpander is going to be fantastic for this.

00:18:29   You know, like, if we have people talking

00:18:31   to the companies that we work with,

00:18:33   I want to make sure that they're gonna be getting language

00:18:37   which is consistent to what they've gotten

00:18:38   over the last couple of years, right?

00:18:39   When it was just me speaking to them.

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00:18:52   Go to textexpander.com/upgradefm.

00:18:55   So you have to go to the whole thing.

00:18:57   As I said before, sometimes having the show Upgrade

00:18:59   as your title of your show can be problematic

00:19:04   with people's URLs.

00:19:06   So this one is textexpander.com/upgradefm.

00:19:09   You can start a free trial

00:19:11   and then learn how companies such as WordPress and Desk multiply their productivity using

00:19:15   TextExpander. Thank you so much to TextExpander from Smile for their support of this show.

00:19:19   It's funny, I didn't get an email that was like "We have a slight problem with this

00:19:23   URL" It happens, it totally happens. The name is a great name but it can cause some

00:19:29   issues. Yes.

00:19:31   Surprise Jason Snell, WWDC has been announced. Surprise!

00:19:37   That's very unexpected to get this news in February.

00:19:41   Yeah, isn't that nice? It's almost reasonable to give people a lot of time to plan to come

00:19:46   across the country.

00:19:47   We're gonna come back to this.

00:19:48   With the world.

00:19:49   But, surprise times two, San Jose!

00:19:53   Yeah.

00:19:54   We're all going to San Jose, California, everyone, from June 5 to 9.

00:19:59   Do you know the way to San Jose? I know the way because Apple used to have their developer

00:20:04   conference there. So it's just a return. It's a return to San Jose for Apple.

00:20:10   Developers are able to register for their place from March 27th at 10am Pacific and

00:20:15   tickets will be offered to people by random selection. You know, about a week to get your

00:20:19   application in and then there'll be a lottery and then people pick from the lottery can

00:20:23   buy their tickets. So in short, I was thinking about this and while San Jose is interesting

00:20:31   and we'll get to maybe some of the implications of moving the location.

00:20:37   There's a lot here with this announcement in which Apple has given us exactly what we

00:20:42   were concerned or complaining about last year. So we have got a ton of notice, like months

00:20:49   of notice rather than weeks of notice. Travel costs are cheaper, it's cheaper to fly, it's

00:20:54   cheaper to stay, so it's cheaper to fly I've found from people flying from Europe. There

00:20:59   There are less flights, but they're definitely available.

00:21:02   There are less companies that offer flights,

00:21:04   but my flights have been fine.

00:21:06   - So you're booking to San Jose Airport.

00:21:09   - Yeah, yeah, there are some directs.

00:21:10   British Airways offers direct from London.

00:21:12   - Nice.

00:21:13   - Flying into San Jose.

00:21:15   The hotel costs are significantly cheaper.

00:21:19   - Oh yeah.

00:21:19   - I've found.

00:21:20   I'm looking at saving over $1,000.

00:21:24   - Well, and there's a couple things about it.

00:21:25   The hotels are cheaper in San Jose,

00:21:29   and the available hotels sort of near the convention center are, if you get outside

00:21:37   of the downtown core and you're willing to take a cab or an Uber or to even be on the

00:21:43   light rail line, you can, you know, it's even cheaper. So there are lots of, it's, yeah,

00:21:50   it's flexible. It's not a tourist city. So in the summer, you don't have the pressure

00:21:57   on hotel rooms that that San Francisco has. Yeah I will say like the hotel that

00:22:02   I'm staying in looks nicer than the park 55 where you should stay in San Francisco

00:22:06   and looks about as close and yeah it we've saved a ton of money on it. Oh

00:22:12   absolutely also I'll mention the weather is vastly better in San Jose in the

00:22:17   summertime it will be it will be probably not foggy and probably 10 to

00:22:24   15 to 20 degrees warmer. So I can finally wear shorts in WWDC. It'll be

00:22:30   summer in San Jose, yeah that's right even if it's 58 and foggy in San

00:22:36   Francisco it will you know it quite possibly will be sunny and 85 in San

00:22:42   Jose. Also Apple are shaking things up a bit you know which which is fine. Yeah

00:22:47   yeah yeah I think right I think the number one reason they did this because

00:22:51   Because my initial thought was, go someplace where you've got more space, right, for more

00:22:57   people.

00:22:58   Although, you know, the argument could be made that Apple doesn't...even though Apple

00:23:01   can sell out WWDC at any size at some point, you know, it doesn't really scale.

00:23:07   You're gonna have huge...are you gonna have huge rooms full of people listening to these

00:23:11   sessions and you can't really scale the labs because there are only so many engineers and

00:23:15   there's only so much time for them to have those conversations.

00:23:17   And this is not about that.

00:23:18   McHenry Convention Center in San Jose, which held this event for years, up to 2002, I want

00:23:25   to say. I think the last event there was when Steve Jobs had the coffin on stage and did

00:23:30   the funeral for OS 9, one of my favorite things that Steve Jobs ever did because it's ridiculous

00:23:35   and it was great. And it's the same size as Moscone West, basically. Also, people are

00:23:42   getting confused. Moscone Center is undergoing some renovation, the north and south halls,

00:23:49   but the west hall is open. I cannot imagine that Apple could not have just stayed in San

00:23:54   Francisco if it wanted to. I think this is... So it's not a move for space, but I think

00:23:59   it is a move for convenience for Apple.

00:24:01   Greg "Stryke"

00:24:01   Yeah, I think this is going to be the new norm, honestly.

00:24:03   Yeah, Steve Jobs wanted the big stage of San Francisco, and he wanted to send the message

00:24:08   like "It's going to be a big deal, we're going to be in San Francisco, the world's going

00:24:12   to come to San Francisco." I think that was very much a Steve Jobs decision. And now,

00:24:19   the convenience of it being close to Apple, Apple has grown, the event has grown, this

00:24:24   is like five minutes, ten minutes away from Apple, whereas to go, it was either a very

00:24:29   long drive or was a long drive and then people in hotel rooms in San Francisco, Apple people

00:24:33   who are going to WWDC this year can like just make their normal commute basically and so

00:24:38   that it's way easier to get people there and back from there, much easier for them in terms

00:24:44   of logistics. So I think that's the reasoning behind this and the one question I've got

00:24:52   is about the keynote because the last few years, you know Apple already has been shaking

00:24:56   this up, they put the keynote into the Bill Graham Civic Auditorium the last two years,

00:25:04   which is a much bigger venue because they wanted to be able to get all the attendees

00:25:09   and the press and the VIPs into that event. And also that allows them to set up for smaller

00:25:15   spaces in Moscone West without having to turn over that space after day one, basically.

00:25:21   So my question is really, what happens to that? What happens to the keynote and where

00:25:28   does it go? I don't know about all the venues downtown. There are some theaters and things

00:25:32   in downtown San Jose, but they're not, I would say, not appropriate for something like this

00:25:37   when you've got thousands of attendees plus press. Like, they've done a couple at the

00:25:40   California Theater, which is right around the corner, but that was a tight event for

00:25:45   just press, let alone thousands of attendees. They don't fit in that theater. I will say,

00:25:51   a short walking distance away from the convention center is the arena where the San Jose Sharks

00:25:57   play. So if they wanted to just go full on like...

00:26:00   What are the San Jose Sharks? They are a National Hockey League team. And

00:26:05   the Warriors played there when their arena was being redone. It is a, and the NCAA tournament

00:26:12   has played rounds there. It is a basketball hockey arena and concerts and things. So you

00:26:18   could absolutely do the, you know, big, if Apple wanted to take over an arena to do a

00:26:25   keynote, they could totally do that. It could be somewhere else.

00:26:29   That doesn't have to be how it sounds. Like, you can take over half of an arena, right?

00:26:35   And then just block the other part off. In saying that they'll take over an arena doesn't

00:26:40   mean that they're going to put 20,000 people or have a, you know, it doesn't mean that.

00:26:44   But it's a space that they could use.

00:26:46   Yeah, it's flexible and you could just put people on the floor. I mean, at Bill Graham,

00:26:49   they essentially put people on the floor and then they had some people right behind there.

00:26:53   And that was the whole thing. And they could do that. There may be some other venues around

00:26:58   there. We'll see. And then there's the question about like campus two and is there a space

00:27:03   at campus two that they could use? Because, you know, Google went through this, right?

00:27:07   Google used to do their IO at Moscone West and they moved it down closer to the Google

00:27:12   campus and they did their keynote at Shoreline, which is an outdoor concert venue. And of

00:27:18   course it's outdoors so people were like having to put on sunscreen and it was really hot

00:27:21   so they were worried about heat stroke and things like that. So Apple will have to figure

00:27:26   that one out too because I'm skeptical about them putting the keynote in the McHenry Convention

00:27:30   Center. They might do it, but I'm skeptical. I feel like they've grown beyond that now.

00:27:37   So, how, let me ask you actually, have you ever been to a WWDC in San Jose?

00:27:44   I've been to many. I started going to WWDC in probably '96 maybe, and I have not missed

00:27:56   a WWDC since then, so I went to whatever that is, five or six of those in San Jose at the

00:28:04   McHenry Convention Center. And that was a very different time. Like, it was, you could

00:28:10   get into any session you wanted. There was never a line, really, after they opened the

00:28:14   doors. There were always seats available, or maybe you had to stand in the back. But

00:28:18   it was not like it is now. And Apple would be like pushing people to buy tickets. Like,

00:28:24   they would contact developers and say, "Please come to WWDC." Again, that doesn't happen

00:28:29   anymore. And we even did our, for Mac user, we did our redesign that we did of the magazine,

00:28:36   which was probably 96. We did that, we did our big event announcing it and showing the

00:28:42   first copies and all of that at a restaurant in San Jose WWDC week. I remember that one

00:28:48   pretty clearly too. So it's, yeah, it's a part of my history covering Apple, and it's

00:28:56   definitely a part of Apple history. So what do you think then? Do you think that

00:29:03   this is going to be a good location for it today? I think it is in the long run

00:29:10   going to be a good location for what it is. I mean it's going to be different. I

00:29:15   think that's the answer is it going to be good or bad? The answer is it's going

00:29:18   to be different. I think so San Francisco. San Francisco is a big city. I know

00:29:22   technically San Jose has more people in it than San Francisco, but San Francisco's

00:29:27   downtown core is huge and incredibly urban. San Jose's downtown core is

00:29:32   smaller and not as dense. And San Francisco has a lot of things going on.

00:29:39   It's got tourists. It's about San Francisco. San Jose, again, not trying to

00:29:45   to make light of San Jose, but just to say San Jose is a mid-sized city of which we have

00:29:55   many in the US. It's got a nice downtown core, it's got a bunch of people who work there

00:30:00   and then they go home at the end of the day. It doesn't have the kind of nightlife that

00:30:04   San Francisco has, it doesn't have the tourist attraction San Francisco has. If you're somebody

00:30:09   who is looking for that kind of vibe, you're not going to get it in San Jose, at least

00:30:14   not as much, but what it does let Apple potentially do is take over the town for that week. Like,

00:30:24   take it over. Like, Austin for South by Southwest, where it's just like everything that's happening

00:30:28   in downtown San Jose for that week in the evening is WWDC stuff. And everywhere you

00:30:35   walk, everybody you see is a developer. And that's not going to happen in San Francisco,

00:30:39   right? There's just too much other stuff going on. But in San Jose, that can kind of happen.

00:30:44   So I think that's going to be the difference in the vibe. It is a little more, you know,

00:30:48   it's less dense. I wouldn't say it feels suburban, but it is definitely less dense. It is a,

00:30:53   it is a, you know, it's not San Francisco. San Francisco is a unique thing, but, and

00:30:59   there's good and bad with that. It really is just different. And so done right, I think

00:31:04   that it could actually be really great and feel much more like a community event where

00:31:08   a San Francisco, you're kind of like popping out of the community, going through the streets

00:31:13   of San Francisco and then popping back in somewhere where the community is also in little

00:31:18   bubbles. But when you're out on the street, it's the cold, cruel streets of San Francisco.

00:31:23   And in San Jose, it may not feel like the whole thing may just feel like Disneyland

00:31:27   for developers, right? It could be like that. I don't think it's going to be like that this

00:31:31   year because I don't think anybody knows the lay of the land except old people who were

00:31:34   there 15 years ago. And I don't think everybody's going to be wanting to see what this thing

00:31:40   is going to be like. But if Apple does it here in San Jose for the next few years, I

00:31:46   think what you'll see is that kind of growth curve where people figure out what are the

00:31:50   good venues and what's the best way to approach this. But this is going to be a weird year

00:31:56   because everybody's really starting new.

00:32:00   So from the WWDC website, Apple said, "Take advantage of exciting experiences around the

00:32:05   city all week and celebrate with an incredible bash on Thursday." I'm really interested to

00:32:10   to see what this means.

00:32:11   Like, are Apple gonna be planning parties and stuff?

00:32:13   If they do, who are they for?

00:32:15   Like, do you have to be an attendee?

00:32:17   My hope would say no.

00:32:19   And the reason I would say that is just because last year,

00:32:21   Apple really embraced the community that is,

00:32:25   of conferences that are around WWDC.

00:32:28   Remember like on the page, they had like layers

00:32:29   and all conflict, they were on the page of like the WWDC page.

00:32:33   I'm hoping that there, you know,

00:32:35   that there's gonna be something similar this time

00:32:36   that, you know, there will still be some other events

00:32:38   that people are going to put on and that Apple will be kind of encouraging them as well as

00:32:43   helping establish some of their own. I would really like to believe that they are aware

00:32:47   of the fact that this is an event which brings people like me out, right? Like people that

00:32:53   are not going to get a ticket but want to be in and around the event. And I hope that

00:32:58   they do a good job of encouraging that between now and June. And show to people like if you

00:33:04   want to still come to this, you know, just just for the funsies, it's still going to

00:33:07   be a good thing to do, you know? I hope that that's going to be the case.

00:33:11   That's the question is exactly that. Does Apple mean that it's programming the nights?

00:33:18   And Apple programs stuff, right? The Apple Design Awards and stuff like that they do,

00:33:25   and the Bash is always there. They did the Bash at Bill Graham last time, so again I

00:33:28   ask the question, what's the venue for the Bash? Is the Bash a showing off, especially

00:33:33   they don't go there for the keynote. Is the Bash a showing off tour of Campus 2, maybe?

00:33:39   I don't know. But also, again, I'll say there is that amazing arena not too far away. I

00:33:45   don't think it's any further away than Bill Graham was from Moscone, for example. And

00:33:50   imagine a Bash with a concert that is in a giant hockey arena. That could be kind of

00:33:55   awesome, actually, if you get the run of the place. So I don't know. I think that it's

00:34:01   an open question. And Apple's participation is a good question because Apple could exert

00:34:07   itself and say, "We're gonna schedule this week and, you know, you can try to schedule

00:34:12   things that are alternatives, but we're really gonna schedule our attendees up and try to

00:34:17   take all their time." Or Apple could take that more laissez-faire attitude of saying,

00:34:22   you know, "We're gonna do this much and no further," and then we assume that the community

00:34:25   is gonna fill in the blanks and that's great. But that's part of the question, I think,

00:34:31   is gonna be people who have to put deposits down on venues

00:34:34   and things like that before knowing what Apple's going to do.

00:34:37   What does it all mean?

00:34:39   So that's why this year may be kind of a feeling out period

00:34:42   where everybody's trying to figure out exactly

00:34:44   where their things fit,

00:34:46   what Apple wants to do with this event.

00:34:49   Because it's still, this is the beating heart

00:34:51   of the Apple community.

00:34:52   That's the only single unifying event that's left.

00:34:56   Although it is focused on developers,

00:34:57   still like Mac world expos gone.

00:34:59   like this is the big one, is it, you know, what form is it gonna take this time? But

00:35:05   I do believe that if Apple gives it time and is consistent with it now for the next few

00:35:12   years that you'll see the same stuff growing up around it that grew up around the old one.

00:35:17   But right now this is like a fresh planting, right? It's just soil and the developer conference

00:35:22   and we don't really know what's gonna grow around it because we don't even know where

00:35:26   the conference is gonna grow and change and how you fit into it.

00:35:28   I've been to four WWDCs and I'm excited about there being a new place with new bars and

00:35:36   new restaurants and new traditions.

00:35:39   Because it's always fun to shake things up.

00:35:44   It's getting a bit samey, right?

00:35:46   You go to WWDC and you've got this thing on this night and you go to this place and you

00:35:49   go to this restaurant and you go to this bar.

00:35:51   These are the places that you go to, the places that you know.

00:35:55   And I'm excited about it being different again.

00:35:58   I'm upset that I won't get Blue Bottle Coffee because it's like my favorite, but that's

00:36:01   not there.

00:36:02   But yeah, it's still California.

00:36:04   There's going to be great food and drink and coffee and stuff everywhere.

00:36:07   I'm kind of excited to explore this new downtown area.

00:36:11   Plus, I kind of don't really like downtown San Francisco.

00:36:15   I don't know what downtown San Jose is like, but I don't really like downtown San Francisco

00:36:19   so much.

00:36:20   So it might be nice to get a change of scenery.

00:36:23   You'll like it better.

00:36:25   It's certainly different.

00:36:26   I would say is when you're in San Francisco there is no mistaking you're in San Francisco.

00:36:29   It's a place, it's a big city that has its own unique vibe to it and that's my knock

00:36:36   on San Jose. San Jose is, you know, it's a city like many others but it's nicer in so

00:36:44   many different ways than San Francisco too. So it'll just be different.

00:36:47   S: You know, I'm kind of cool with it though because downtown San Francisco means WWDC

00:36:50   to me so like downtown San Jose will just start to mean WWDC like I'm not going to do

00:36:55   for any other reason and you know it's kind of a cool thing and then maybe in a few years

00:36:59   I will want to visit San Francisco as a tourist again because I have no desire to do that

00:37:06   even though there's a lot more of San Francisco than I've ever seen but I'm kind of just a

00:37:10   bit burnt out on it having been there every year for four years you know. What about you?

00:37:17   Like you don't stay in downtown San Francisco because you just drive in on the couple of

00:37:23   days that you might be in town. But San Jose, I don't really know California geography,

00:37:28   I was very surprised to learn that it's five minutes from Upples campus, San Jose, like

00:37:31   I had no idea, I don't know where anything is. So is this much further for you? Like

00:37:35   and what are you planning to do?

00:37:36   Oh yeah, it's a lot further. Back in the day I would, a couple of times I stayed in San

00:37:44   Jose for a night or two. I do remember staying at a hotel by the airport and then driving

00:37:51   in and parking at the at the convention center. I did that a few times. It's a long drive.

00:37:58   It's one that I can do, but when I was doing those it was very much like, you know, I'd

00:38:04   go to the sessions for the day and then I'd get in the car and go home. But if you're

00:38:07   hanging around with people now it's now it's now it's nine o'clock and it's like, "Okay

00:38:12   guys I gotta go drive for an hour and a half to home." So for me it's just, you know, it

00:38:19   means different logistics. I mean, I've stayed in San Francisco sometimes for Mac World Expo.

00:38:24   I would stay for a day or two in San Francisco sometimes just because it was impractical.

00:38:29   I try not to do that. But so for this one, I might end up getting a hotel for a night

00:38:34   or two. I haven't yet. We'll see. We'll see.

00:38:38   Jared: You should. It'd be nice. Have some time in the Snell Zone. Sure.

00:38:42   Chris Yeah. So we'll see. But if not, I'll just drive

00:38:45   down the freeway. It's a long drive, but it's fine.

00:38:48   Between now and June, there is the expectation that Campus 2 is opening, right?

00:38:53   Yeah, I mean we haven't heard anything about it other than that it's taking shape.

00:38:57   The flyover pictures that I've seen of it seem like it's coming together.

00:39:03   But that's all we've really heard. I do wonder about that. I've mentioned it before.

00:39:08   Like, would there be an event at Campus 2? Because first off, you know all the developers want to see it.

00:39:13   see it and you know that they've got a couple of milestones there in terms of the keynote

00:39:20   and in terms of the bash that they could do there. They could also do an event like during

00:39:26   the week that was a Campus 2 something where it was you know it was not necessarily a big

00:39:33   event with a band or something like that and it's not something with the press but it's

00:39:37   something just for developers they could do something like that an open house kind of

00:39:40   thing. So there are things I don't know what the, like we know that there's a big grass

00:39:48   space interior to Infinite Loop that they've used for, they used to use, that's where the

00:39:54   bash was. That's always where the bash was during the WWDC in San Jose is that on what

00:40:01   Thursday night everybody would take buses to Infinite Loop and go to the inside of Infinite

00:40:07   loop and there was a beer bash there. I believe that is what it used to be.

00:40:11   I do wonder though if you want a bunch of developers to come and ruin your new lawn

00:40:15   though, you know? Well, I think you make a strong point there.

00:40:19   So that's my question is, is there a space for something like that or is that just, you

00:40:24   know, is that not on the agenda? And that's a big question.

00:40:27   What about if they were to do the keynote there and simulcast it for developers? Like

00:40:31   I wonder if that's the type of a thing that might happen, right?

00:40:34   so it's, it's, it's, the developers unfortunately have to go into a room and watch it, but the

00:40:38   press get to be in the...

00:40:40   It's developer conference keynote, I don't think they want to do something like that.

00:40:43   They could do that, but I don't think they want to do that.

00:40:45   No, that would, that would suck. I mean, I understand how, like, there's always been

00:40:48   like overflow rooms and stuff, but you're just here in the same building.

00:40:51   Yeah.

00:40:52   But like, I, I just assumed that like, if there is no event at Campus 2 before then,

00:40:58   I can't imagine how they wouldn't want to show it off somehow, right? Because when would

00:41:04   the next one be, September that they would do an event there?

00:41:07   Well, and to developers, right? I mean, I think the auditorium at Campus 2, my impression

00:41:12   is it's sized not for those thousands of developers, but it's sized for the press and VIP and all

00:41:18   of that for an iPhone event, right? So I think, I don't think that's in play for this unless

00:41:24   it's much larger than I think it is. If it is, then maybe, but then you got to get everybody

00:41:29   there from San Jose, which means you got to run a bunch of shuttle buses and things like

00:41:33   that and they could do that. But I think it's an open question about where Apple's next

00:41:39   event is going to be. Are they capable of going to Campus 2 for an iPad event in the

00:41:45   next few months? I don't know.

00:41:48   David, in the chat, points out that, which I think is a good call, that maybe they will

00:41:52   want to wait to have the 10th year iPhone thing there as the first event. I can see

00:41:58   that. I can totally see that. So there you go, ladies and gents. WWDC, June 5-9, San

00:42:05   Jose. I'm going to be there. Jason will be there for an amount of time. I hope that we'll

00:42:10   still see you there if you're planning to go. I think this could be a good year. You

00:42:15   know, if you've never been before, this could be a good year, it could be a bad year. But

00:42:19   if it's a bad year, you won't know, so you might as well go. If you've never been there

00:42:24   before you're not gonna know because it's the first time. But I think it could be interesting

00:42:27   because everything's gonna be shaken up and people are gonna be getting new traditions

00:42:31   and stuff like that. It could be a good time to go.

00:42:34   Tim Cynova Yeah, it'll be very different when people

00:42:38   be figuring out. New traditions will be started this time, right? That's I think what's going

00:42:42   to happen is the old traditions are done and people will miss them, but the new traditions

00:42:46   will start.

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00:44:03   So last week the Icon Factory set up a Kickstarter campaign for Twitterrific on the Mac.

00:44:11   Yes.

00:44:12   Now I know that you are a Twitterrific user Mr Jason Snell.

00:44:15   I am.

00:44:16   Not on the Mac anymore so much.

00:44:18   I used to, I used to and then finally it got so old and there were so many features it

00:44:23   didn't support that I switched and I used the official Twitter client which is not great

00:44:27   but I use it on the Mac.

00:44:29   I don't think it's been updated since 2013,

00:44:32   the Twitter-rific client for the Mac,

00:44:34   I think just from like skimming over the--

00:44:36   - That's what they say, regular updates till 2013,

00:44:39   since, and then in 2013 they stopped basically, yeah.

00:44:42   - And many people have asked and begged and pleaded

00:44:45   and desired for them to make a new Mac client,

00:44:48   but that hasn't happened.

00:44:49   And it's mainly because of Twitter's change

00:44:53   in the way that they want third-party apps to be developed,

00:44:56   and also just economic changes with app development.

00:44:59   So, Twitterific had decided to,

00:45:02   or icon factory decided to go to Kickstarter with Twitterific

00:45:05   as I guess as a kind of like a pseudo pre-order.

00:45:09   So, you know, if they're gonna make this,

00:45:11   they wanna know that there are people out there

00:45:13   that are willing to pay for it.

00:45:14   And in these times, the best way

00:45:17   is to have a Kickstarter campaign.

00:45:19   I mean, that's what we do for pen addict stuff, right?

00:45:22   We wanna put on events,

00:45:24   but we wanna make sure people actually want them.

00:45:26   So we do a Kickstarter so then we're not in the hole over it.

00:45:29   You know, like if we just recorded a video episode

00:45:31   and sold it afterwards,

00:45:32   we don't know if it would recoup the costs.

00:45:34   But by doing it this way, we know in advance if we can.

00:45:37   - Yeah, this is a great tool for something like this

00:45:39   where I know the Icon Factory has been

00:45:42   struggling with this idea.

00:45:45   I mean, they tried to do,

00:45:46   they did new versions of Twitterrific for Mac

00:45:48   where they built like frameworks

00:45:49   to try and translate the work they had done on iOS

00:45:53   to get it to run on the Mac.

00:45:54   I mean, so much work.

00:45:55   They were so concerned about finding ways

00:46:00   to keep the Mac app up to date

00:46:03   when it was clear that all their money was in iOS.

00:46:07   And so in the end, and it's a very small company,

00:46:10   in the end iOS is what got the attention

00:46:13   and the Mac thing languished.

00:46:15   And I think they hated that, but they were concerned.

00:46:18   And keep in mind that this is at a time

00:46:19   when Twitter basically was saying,

00:46:22   third-party apps are gonna go away.

00:46:24   So they were like, all right, well, if we've got a limited amount of space here, and as

00:46:29   the creators of the word tweet and the Bluebird image and things like that, Icon Factory has

00:46:37   a special relationship with Twitter.

00:46:41   I don't know the details of it.

00:46:42   I don't know if they've ever told anybody that, but I suspect there are all sorts of

00:46:45   things that the Icon Factory gets to do, including use the word Twitter in their product name

00:46:51   that nobody else gets to do because they have contributed so much to Twitter over the years.

00:46:57   - Yeah, it's like, you can use the word we created, you can use the word we created,

00:47:01   let's call it a day, right? - Yeah, I think so. And I don't even know if they have tokens for...

00:47:06   That was the thing that they did was basically Twitter said, you know, apps have a limited number

00:47:09   of users that they can acquire third-party apps and then they're done. And I'm not even sure that

00:47:13   that's the case with Twitter, but if it is, I'm sure that with Twitterrific, they may have a lot.

00:47:18   But they anyway, this is a special way to do things that wasn't available to them then Kickstarter and the great advantage of it is it's basically a pre-order.

00:47:30   They're gauging the markets need for this product because what concern them is as a small company could they put the investment required in and over the years.

00:47:38   It's only gotten greater because the code base is that much out of further out of date.

00:47:42   could they put the investment in to Twitter for Mac that was required to do it and actually

00:47:47   make money on it, right? Or would they put in upfront thousands and thousands of dollars worth

00:47:54   of work and then release it and nobody buys it? And that was the concern is like, what's the

00:47:59   market for this? What can we do? So the Kickstarter lets them say, here it is, here's what we're

00:48:04   planning on doing. If you, if you order this in advance, you will get a, you know, you'll get a

00:48:09   copy, you pay a little more and you get on our beta, and we're going to build this thing

00:48:14   if we get however much money they have. And it's a $75,000 goal with a $100,000 stretch

00:48:20   goal. So I like that part of it because, you know, there are really kind of two outcomes

00:48:25   here. One is they will get enough money to build the app, and the other outcome is it

00:48:29   turns out there is not enough demand for this app. And then they walk away. And I think,

00:48:35   In fact, in that scenario, I think they would probably walk away feeling okay about it,

00:48:40   feeling vindicated in a way that their abandonment of that app was the right business call, because

00:48:48   there's just not enough support for them to keep working on it.

00:48:52   So I like this idea.

00:48:55   If this was a random company, I don't think I would like it as much, but given that they

00:48:59   they have a huge history with building Twitter clients and they're there. I signed up for

00:49:04   Twitter because Twitter-ific was a thing that was created. And this is and this happened

00:49:10   in the gap between when the iPhone was announced and when it was released. So it's 10 years.

00:49:17   So it was very early in Twitter's history that they that they did this. So they have

00:49:22   the they have the background here and I love their iOS app. It's not for everybody but

00:49:29   it is my window into Twitter on iOS and I would love to see them come back to the Mac

00:49:34   because there aren't any Mac apps for Twitter that really satisfy me at this point. I know

00:49:40   and don't send in your suggestions because I've got them all. I've got Tweetbot, I've

00:49:44   got Night Owl or whatever it's called now. I've got them all. None of them satisfy me.

00:49:50   9.32pm on the 10th of February 2007. Setting up Twitter, going to download Twitterific

00:49:56   and listening to this week in media. That was my first tweet.

00:49:58   Yeah, and my first tweet was something like testing out Twitterific, I think was my first

00:50:04   tweet. I can find out because Twitter has a discover

00:50:07   first tweet function. It's actually linked in my...

00:50:10   Installing Twitterific, that is your first tweet, that's what you said.

00:50:16   So what do you think about this and what it says about the Mac software market? Like,

00:50:21   Can you imagine icon factory doing this for an iPhone app? Like they just released an

00:50:26   iPad drawing application out of blue. Yeah. Right, Linea. Well I think I think what it

00:50:33   says is that there well I think it says some things about the Mac software market but I

00:50:38   think it also says some things about the Twitter client market right I think I think what you

00:50:42   see here is uncertainty that there's a market for a product and with something like Linea

00:50:46   or Linnea, however they pronounce it.

00:50:48   - Which is superb, by the way.

00:50:50   - It is amazing.

00:50:52   It's a drawing app.

00:50:54   You can use the Apple Pencil on it.

00:50:55   You can use your finger.

00:50:56   It's very good.

00:50:57   I think they looked at that and said,

00:50:59   "That's a market opportunity.

00:51:00   We can jump on it.

00:51:01   We're gonna make that happen."

00:51:02   Like, they have confidence

00:51:04   that there's a market for that product.

00:51:05   They may be wrong,

00:51:07   but they have confidence

00:51:07   that there's a market for that product.

00:51:09   The challenge here is,

00:51:11   one, do people want Twitter clients?

00:51:14   Two, what's the risk of building a Twitter client

00:51:17   based on what Twitter does, which is scary.

00:51:21   And three, it's the Mac.

00:51:23   And like just being in the Mac app store

00:51:25   is not going to solve your problems.

00:51:28   Like you can make money on the iOS app store.

00:51:31   It doesn't mean everybody does, but you can do it.

00:51:33   But on the Mac, it's harder.

00:51:36   So I think it says a lot about all of those things.

00:51:41   And as a result, I'm not sure we can take away

00:51:44   like lessons learned about like something other than this particular instance.

00:51:51   So, listener John wrote in about this and said, "Do you think that this is a sign

00:51:58   of slowdown in the use of this client or a resurgence of interest in the client?"

00:52:03   I mean, this client, I was about as faithful a user as anyone for a long time and I gave

00:52:14   up on it because it just broke in so many ways. John Saracusa still has not given up

00:52:18   on it. He still uses it, which is mind-boggling because there's so many things it doesn't

00:52:22   support. There are still a bunch of things it does really incredibly well, and you could

00:52:25   hack it. I like changed the font and the colors and stuff because you could just go inside

00:52:29   the package and change the colors, which I really like to do. I mean, I loved it, but

00:52:33   it's, um, the Twitter service has advanced so much in the last few years. So I think

00:52:40   client has basically been dead. I think iConfactory basically treats it as dead. John Saracusa

00:52:46   is not a good example of this, but if you think about it, it's basically a four-year

00:52:50   abandoned product, and they're not even talking about updating it. They're talking about writing

00:52:53   a new version of it. Now, they know they've got an actively developed iOS version, so

00:52:58   they've got some code they can use, and they know the service in and out, and they know

00:53:01   the features in and out. But I think what this is about is maybe a feeling that there's

00:53:06   more stability in the Twitter client market than there used to be, that Twitter is less

00:53:11   likely to shut the door on third-party clients. I think it's their desire to do this but not

00:53:18   thinking that they could or that they had the time to do it, let alone the resources

00:53:21   to do it. So I think it's those things. They probably hear from a lot of their users who

00:53:26   miss it and don't, and like me, aren't satisfied with the tools that are out there, the Twitter

00:53:31   apps that are out there on the Mac right now. So I think it's a combination of things I'm

00:53:36   not sure if we can extrapolate it quite as much to the rest of the market because the

00:53:40   Twitter client market is such a weird thing. You know, Tweetbot seems to be motoring along

00:53:46   on iOS and Mac and that seems to be a valid business for them, although I don't know any

00:53:51   of the details of it, maybe. For all I know, the Tweetbot for Mac is a disappointment to

00:53:55   them, but I don't think it is. I don't know.

00:53:57   >> Tweetbot for Mac is totally fine.

00:53:59   >> Yeah.

00:54:00   >> Like, as an application, like, it runs and works perfectly fine.

00:54:03   And if I was the icon factory, I would look at it too from the perspective of what they know about the iOS market,

00:54:08   which is you're going to have people who use the default, and that's fine, and Tweetbot's there.

00:54:13   But I think they feel like they've got a niche on iOS that's not being fulfilled on the Mac right now.

00:54:19   Because people who like Twitterific on iOS and not Tweetbot, on the Mac, people like me,

00:54:26   they can't make that decision because there's no Twitterific there.

00:54:29   But if you're somebody like me, I'm much more likely to respond to a Twitter-ific style

00:54:36   Mac app than I am to Tweetbot, because for various reasons, Tweetbot is fine, it just

00:54:43   doesn't do it for me.

00:54:44   It's just, personally, it doesn't work for me.

00:54:46   It's a great app, it's got lots of features, I can't use it.

00:54:50   So I think that maybe they're doing that, looking at the Mac market and saying, "There

00:54:54   is a place for us there.

00:54:55   We can build this client, knowing what we know about iOS and knowing that there are

00:54:58   out there who like our approach here, that's what we want to do.

00:55:02   So like for me, I guess there's a big market of people like me as well, I stay away, well

00:55:09   not stay away, but I haven't ever switched back or seriously tried out Twitterific again

00:55:15   because it doesn't have a Mac app.

00:55:18   Because when I'm on my Mac I want it to sync up with my iPhone.

00:55:21   Yeah, I'm using Twitter, you know, so that doesn't happen for me.

00:55:26   You know, I like with, with, um, tweetbot, I, you know, it's, everything's in sync.

00:55:31   And I liked that my timeline position, my mentions, my DMS, everything's in sync.

00:55:36   Um, and when you're used to that, Jason, I will tell you, it's, uh, it's quite a

00:55:40   feature.

00:55:41   Let me tell you, it's, it's never been important to me, but you care about it.

00:55:45   And this is what I'm saying is sort of like, there are things people care about

00:55:48   that tweetbot gives them and they love them.

00:55:51   And I, you know, whatever those things are, I don't care about them obviously,

00:55:54   because it's not enough to... I've bought every version of Tweetbot, it just doesn't

00:55:59   do it for me. So I'm glad it does it for you and many other people.

00:56:02   So you mentioned about them rebuilding the application, and the goal is $75,000, and

00:56:07   this $75,000 is for them to build what the icon factory is referring to as a minimal

00:56:12   product which would take six to seven months. And there is a list of features that are included

00:56:17   in kind of that minimal product. But there is two stretch goals, there's a $100,000 stretch

00:56:22   goal and a $125,000 stretch goal.

00:56:26   I do have a concern that what I consider is far too many really basic features of Twitter

00:56:32   are behind the $100,000 mark.

00:56:35   So I'll give you just a short list of some of the ones that I think should be in what

00:56:40   I consider to be a basic Twitter client.

00:56:43   Direct messaging, built in Twitter search, built in media viewer of images, gifs or videos,

00:56:48   built-in conversation and threaded tweet viewer and built-in viewer for user profiles and

00:56:54   searching for and getting suggested users whilst composing a tweet.

00:56:58   All of those things I consider to be very basic, not from a development perspective,

00:57:03   but from a what I expect out of a Twitter client.

00:57:07   My concern is, if they don't match that $100,000 stretch goal, if they don't get that, are

00:57:13   these features going to be added at all?

00:57:16   you be buying a Twitter client now for $15 but they kind of hit $75,000 and they don't

00:57:22   really make up the rest of the money, how long would it be until you see those things?

00:57:27   Would you ever see them?

00:57:28   Would they hit that $75,000 but this is all the people that ever want this application?

00:57:34   They're going to back this Kickstarter and then these things never get added?

00:57:38   I understand the idea of splitting development up and I'm sure that what they're doing is

00:57:42   splitting things that are important out and moving them around. But like, you know, like

00:57:49   the things that are difficult to make, they're putting behind the other stretch goals. I

00:57:52   get that. But I think that there are far too many things in this list, which I consider

00:57:57   to just be basics of Twitter. And I get like, you know, there are people in the chat, I'm

00:58:02   like, are DMs important? I think they are. I mean, again, this is my subjective thing

00:58:06   here, but especially like looking at conversations, like being able to see conversations or tweets,

00:58:11   So if you want to see a conversation between people or looking at user profiles like searching on Twitter

00:58:16   Like I think there are a lot of these things here

00:58:18   Which are what I consider to be very basic functionality of any client that I would expect which are behind a $100,000 stretch goal

00:58:25   I think you are overthinking it. All right. I think the way this is structured is it's Kickstarter structured it

00:58:32   Is you got to have stretch goals. They are going to build this they say from scratch

00:58:38   They're not gonna, you know, just update the existing client because it's too old.

00:58:42   And in fact, the $100,000 and $125,000 stretch goals are for another major version that we'll follow up with.

00:58:49   So basically what they're doing is saying, "We're gonna do this project in stages."

00:58:53   And stage one is the basics.

00:58:54   And we can't, like, we're not going to wait to add all these features and then do a final release.

00:59:00   We're gonna do a first release and then we'll work on the rest.

00:59:03   Now, if they don't make the stretch goal, I guess it's a question.

00:59:06   And my guess is that once they do all the work to build this app, they're not going

00:59:10   to stop.

00:59:11   So my guess is that that next version is probably going to come anyway.

00:59:15   There's a chance maybe that it won't, but I think most likely what they're really doing

00:59:19   is saying, "Look, we're going to build this app in stages.

00:59:22   Here's stage one, here's stage two, here's stage three.

00:59:25   We need stretch goals for Kickstarter, so we're going to list stage two and stage three

00:59:29   as stretch goals."

00:59:30   And that's what they're doing.

00:59:32   That's my guess.

00:59:34   I think it is just as much uncertainty as any piece of software ever does, but I don't

00:59:40   think it's anything more than that.

00:59:42   I can totally see what you're saying.

00:59:45   All I'm doing is reading what the page says, right?

00:59:49   And what it says is, "If we raise over $100,000, we will follow up with another major version

00:59:53   that includes these."

00:59:54   Yeah.

00:59:55   Like, if they don't make enough money after this thing is funded, will those things ever

00:59:58   be added?

00:59:59   And that's my question, and I'm not sure about that.

01:00:02   I think what I'd say is the stretch goals are there

01:00:03   because they wanna motivate people

01:00:05   'cause they figure they'll probably reach their basic goal

01:00:08   and they wanna have people keep developing, keep donating.

01:00:11   And second, they wanna keep the realism of a first version.

01:00:15   And then third, I think that's a question

01:00:17   you could literally ask about any app.

01:00:19   What they're saying here is,

01:00:21   if we have that much money, we know we can build those.

01:00:26   And if they don't,

01:00:27   I think their intention is probably still to build those

01:00:29   'cause why would they go through all this effort

01:00:31   and then have a basic Twitter client,

01:00:33   but their certainty goes down a little bit

01:00:36   because they have to see how much it's gonna take

01:00:39   and what the market reaction to the app is.

01:00:42   - Yeah, I hope so. - So, you know,

01:00:44   it's just like any app you buy a 1.0

01:00:45   and you hope that they add the features

01:00:47   that aren't in there yet, and that's just part of the deal.

01:00:50   But I mean, really Kickstarter psychology,

01:00:52   you have to have stretch goals, right?

01:00:53   And what are the stretch goals gonna be

01:00:55   for an app like this?

01:00:56   And the answer is the next version.

01:00:57   I don't think there's any, I mean, what else can you do?

01:01:00   That seems to be it.

01:01:01   'Cause you have to have stretch goals.

01:01:03   That's like Kickstarter 101.

01:01:05   You wanna push people when they're beyond

01:01:08   what your basic goal is to keep donating,

01:01:10   'cause you wanna get as much money up front as possible.

01:01:13   So I think that this is just a realistic thing.

01:01:16   I think they're not saying,

01:01:18   "If you don't donate $100,000,

01:01:20   "we will cease development and never develop it again."

01:01:22   I don't think that's how I read it at all.

01:01:25   - Well, as I say, I definitely hope that's the case.

01:01:27   I also find it strange that there is no, not even basic mockups of the application in this

01:01:34   campaign.

01:01:35   Like, there's kind of nothing, which is just, it's an interesting choice to me.

01:01:40   I find that kind of curious.

01:01:43   I mean, they're not mocking up the product until they have the support, I think.

01:01:48   I think they're going on their track record, and their track record's pretty good, so that's,

01:01:55   you know, I think it's interesting too.

01:01:57   I think what they would argue is they could do mock-ups now,

01:02:00   but the amount of work that goes into building a real app

01:02:03   with a real interface is the act of building the app.

01:02:06   And they're not building the app until they get the funding.

01:02:09   So I think I get what you're saying,

01:02:12   which is that the right way,

01:02:13   we talked about the Kickstarter 101,

01:02:15   the right way to do a Kickstarter of this

01:02:17   is to have fake UI.

01:02:19   And I think the reality of the icon factory looking at this

01:02:23   is that they don't believe in fake UI.

01:02:24   They believe in real UI, so they just didn't do any.

01:02:27   But, you know, yeah, from a marketing perspective,

01:02:30   some Kickstarter expert would probably tell you

01:02:32   in addition to having stretch goals,

01:02:33   to have fake UI mockups.

01:02:35   - They would, 'cause you should.

01:02:38   You know, like, there's a whole thing in Kickstarter

01:02:41   about prototypes, and there is nothing in this project

01:02:45   about that at all.

01:02:47   - Yeah.

01:02:48   - Which is a peculiar omission to me.

01:02:50   I hope they make their goal, you know,

01:02:52   if anything, I'm a Tweetbot user,

01:02:54   and I would like to Twitter if it just keep existing,

01:02:57   because I have an affinity for the product.

01:02:59   And as we always say about Apple,

01:03:01   if you like something, you want it to have competition.

01:03:05   So Tweetbot is my client of choice,

01:03:06   but I want Twitterrific to be good

01:03:08   so they can push each other forward.

01:03:10   And I would love to be able to maybe dip my toe

01:03:13   into Twitterrific again,

01:03:14   but I'm only personally willing to do that

01:03:16   if there is a Mac client which is updated.

01:03:19   So I hope that they're able to make it

01:03:21   and I hope that in a year's time,

01:03:23   they're able to produce,

01:03:26   like a year of development or something like that they're able to produce an

01:03:29   application which has got all of the basic features that it would need to be

01:03:33   one that someone could use every day so we'll see wish them the best of luck you

01:03:38   can go there will be a link in our show notes you can you can back it I'm sure

01:03:41   you've backed it oh yeah you didn't put in the million dollars that John's your

01:03:46   acusa put in I did not fund this at a million dollars okay okay that's that's

01:03:52   true there are two people there are two people that put the $500 pledge

01:03:56   in which is I love that I love that there are two people in the world that

01:04:00   wanted this app to exist so much that they put $500 in I think that's awesome

01:04:03   yeah when you get a bunch of stuff you do like icon factory software and little

01:04:08   collectible things and all of that I think I pledged at the hundred dollar

01:04:10   level look at you really you're that guy look at you hey big spender mm-hmm

01:04:17   Jason that you can notice about Jason Snell supporter of independent software

01:04:22   yeah and as you'll find out in last week's clockwise supporter of failed

01:04:25   kickstarters. Uh oh. Or sorry, a supporter of successful kickstarters that didn't ever

01:04:30   ship anything. So, you know, it happens. Uh oh. Is this gonna have the Snell curse to

01:04:35   it? No. Are you confident? But my first, I realized my first kickstarter, I mentioned

01:04:40   this on Clockwise, my first kickstarter that I ever backed, funded, it's a, it's a, an

01:04:44   animated film that, uh, has not been released and it's been like seven years or something.

01:04:52   I think I've had pretty good luck with this one.

01:04:56   I have too, actually. But for your first one to be still not yet fulfilled is just hilarious.

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01:07:45   It is time for some Ask Upgrade Mr. Jason Snow. Jacob wanted to know, what headphones

01:07:51   we use whilst recording podcasts and is it worth buying a set of studio monitors?

01:07:56   So I have used headphones that have been classed as studio monitors in the past. I used the

01:08:02   Sony MDR7506 headphones which are considered to be monitor star headphones and they were

01:08:16   were great for a while but over time kind of the the the ear pad stuff

01:08:20   started wearing off and I was getting like pieces of black foam in my ears but

01:08:24   I was using them for a long time they were fine for what I was doing when I

01:08:27   had them but now I use headphones called the Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro which were

01:08:34   recommended to me a friend of the show Marco Arment and I really like these

01:08:39   headphones a lot they work very well they're very comfortable for long

01:08:42   period of time I will say about the Sony's they became uncomfortable after

01:08:47   after long use like they would my ears would get really hot and like itchy

01:08:51   right like they weren't very comfortable but I do find these ones to be

01:08:56   comfortable like I wear them for hours and hours and hours a day and I have a

01:09:02   really good use out of them plus when I do want to use them with music they

01:09:07   sound fantastic as well because I do do so sometimes.

01:09:10   So my, I use a pair of Ultimate Airs in-ear monitors with the custom silicone

01:09:15   tips so they go in my ear and I don't, is it worth, I don't know what it's worth.

01:09:21   I'd say the most important things if you're if you're recording podcasts are

01:09:24   to have a set of headphones, one, that's step one. They need to be comfortable for

01:09:29   long periods of time if you're recording for long periods of time, that's step two.

01:09:33   and they need to isolate the audio so they don't leak out. So no open earphones,

01:09:38   earbuds are not really great, headsets are not really great, anything where the

01:09:43   microphone that you're using for the podcast very easily can pick up the

01:09:49   sound of the other person talking in your ear that's leaking from it, that is

01:09:54   a terrible setup for podcasting. So I think that's my number three is so

01:09:58   comfort is important and having them is important but the next thing is

01:10:02   also not having them kind of leak into the outside world. They need to be a closed system,

01:10:08   whether you're in the ear like mine are or over the ear like Myke's are.

01:10:12   - Yep, most definitely. That's what you need. You need super in-ear like Jason has or good

01:10:18   over the ear. As long as you've got one of those two, then you're going to be fine, but

01:10:22   they're the ones that we use.

01:10:24   Brent asked, "Do you think that the next iPhone will come with a 3.5 millimeter to lightning

01:10:29   headphone adapter like the 7 does. I don't. I think this was a one-time thing, right?

01:10:35   Like now we should be used to it, otherwise you buy one.

01:10:38   - I give, I say maybe 50/50. I think it's possible. That adapter can't cost very much.

01:10:46   I think maybe one more go. You gotta think about the upgrade cycle. It's a two-year upgrade

01:10:50   cycle so you're gonna have people coming in for this fall's iPhones who are coming from

01:10:56   two previous, you know, two generations ago, not just the one. And as a result, I think

01:11:00   it might be a two year adapter cycle too, just to get those people and be nice to them

01:11:05   like Apple was nice to the people last fall. So that's why I'd say it's sort of a 50/50.

01:11:11   I see the other side of it, which is just, nah, one time deal. We moved on, nobody cares

01:11:16   anymore. We're just moving on and you can buy an adapter if you want. But I think it's

01:11:20   also a pretty reasonable scenario that they just do it for two years and that's the transition

01:11:24   because that's the average age of an upgrade.

01:11:28   - I think with those two scenarios,

01:11:30   it's just what do you think the original reason

01:11:32   Apple was doing it for?

01:11:33   Like I don't know what it is, right?

01:11:35   - Is it PR cover or was it to help people

01:11:37   who have legacy headphones?

01:11:39   - And depending on what side of the fence you fall down on,

01:11:43   depends on which argument you go for.

01:11:44   And we will know in September.

01:11:45   - Well, that's why I say flip a coin.

01:11:48   - Yep, it really is.

01:11:49   - It's that reason, is that I'm not really sure

01:11:50   which one will win out, but that's exactly it.

01:11:54   talking about the future of computing

01:11:57   Brando asked do you think that the future computing could be something like

01:12:00   the Nintendo switch where you just

01:12:02   dock a device and then you know plug it into

01:12:06   a monitor could that be a smartphone so I thought about this

01:12:10   there's like a whole article I want to write about this and and we should

01:12:13   probably talk about this more my short version of it is

01:12:15   yeah it makes a lot of sense that if everybody's got a smartphone and

01:12:18   smartphones got an incredible processor in it that what you really

01:12:21   could do is just dock it to other other form factors. You don't really need like an iPad,

01:12:25   right? You just have your smartphone and all that. And I start to think about it. I'm like,

01:12:28   that makes total sense. Like wherever I go, whatever screen I find all my data's on my

01:12:33   smartphone and I will be able to pop it up on a bigger device. However, when I start imagining

01:12:40   what that bigger device is, it's like, okay, well, it's gotta be a touch screen, right? It's gotta,

01:12:43   it's gotta be a pleasant, high quality, high resolution touch screen device. And I start to

01:12:49   to think about what that device looks like.

01:12:51   And I think it looks like an iPad.

01:12:53   And then I think if you're gonna build a device like that,

01:12:56   would you not just have brains in it too

01:13:00   and have it syncing to the same cloud data store

01:13:03   as that you're syncing on your smartphone

01:13:05   rather than having it drive it remotely

01:13:07   from your smartphone and have to worry about it,

01:13:09   the smartphone battery and all of those things

01:13:11   or plugging the smartphone in

01:13:12   or plugging a cable in or things like that.

01:13:14   And so I go back and forth in that

01:13:16   because I firmly believe bigger screens are part of the working experience.

01:13:23   Um, I don't think people are going to get their jobs done on a six inch screen,

01:13:27   but that, you know, when I start to think about the scenario of creating

01:13:32   that external touch screen thing that gives you that space, but it's being

01:13:36   driven by your smartphone, I do very quickly start to ask myself, why would

01:13:40   you not just make the screen smart and, and have it be its own device that

01:13:45   can be operated independently of the person with the phone. I don't know.

01:13:52   Yeah, for many years I have like wondered to myself what it would be like to have that

01:13:58   device. Like I remember a long time ago there was a device that Motorola made, I think it

01:14:04   was Motorola called the Atrix?

01:14:06   Yep.

01:14:07   And I remember like whenever this was and whatever technology podcasts I was doing at

01:14:12   that point, I was kind of fascinated by this product, like this product that you would

01:14:19   just plug into a bunch of different things and it was just like the one device that you

01:14:23   carried with you. I've always been kind of like taken by this idea of like, you just

01:14:30   have this brain that plugs into docks and it plugs into tablets or like laptops. It's

01:14:37   always been something that I thought could be an interesting thing, but like you, as

01:14:44   you said, as I've thought about it over time, I wonder if by the time we get to a point

01:14:48   where smartphones will be powerful enough to drive all of that stuff convincingly, will

01:14:53   networking and cloud solutions just be so powerful that we don't need that?

01:15:00   Right?

01:15:01   I mean, that's where I come down.

01:15:03   I can see both sides of the argument, but that's where I kind of come down, is if, as

01:15:07   the stuff advances and I look at those big screen things, I mean, I can see the value

01:15:11   of things like, okay, well, what about in a computer lab somewhere, someplace where

01:15:16   the big screens are shared? Wouldn't you want to be able to have it just walk right

01:15:21   up and have it be your stuff on there? And it's like, yeah, but even then, if that

01:15:27   tech advances to that degree, wouldn't your phone be able to provide the data that it

01:15:33   needs to know that it's you and then just go off on its own. I think in the

01:15:38   end maybe the distinction between devices and your personality fall away

01:15:43   and it's just whatever screen you use is smart and knows it's you and shows you

01:15:50   your data and the idea of like well what device am I using here kind of falls in

01:15:57   the background. It's just like any device sophisticated enough to be that

01:16:01   big screen seems to me to be sophisticated enough to not to be to not

01:16:05   need to be remote controlled by another device it's so it's sophisticated enough

01:16:09   to be itself and use your data rather than like be a you know it's this

01:16:14   incredibly sophisticated touchscreen display that is so dumb that you need to

01:16:18   plug your phone into it for it to work I just I have a hard time seeing that it's

01:16:21   possible but it just seems to me that that the way the world is going it won't

01:16:26   be so fiddly it'll be like you know everything is every every screen is

01:16:31   smart basically. Parker asked if either of us have had to replace the tip on our

01:16:35   Apple pencils yet so you can take the tip off and there is one that

01:16:40   comes in the box an extra one or you can buy extra tips from the Apple store. I

01:16:46   haven't needed to I mean I don't know how often you need to use them to make

01:16:52   that change but I'm sure at some point you would right like I can imagine you

01:16:57   could wear it down but like I don't know how long it would take and how much use

01:17:00   it would take to do that. And if I haven't, I'm very, very convinced that you haven't

01:17:03   needed to.

01:17:04   >> It's certainly not.

01:17:06   >> Yeah. So I don't know how often it is you need to use them, but like I do know, like

01:17:10   my Wacom, I haven't yet, but I need to replace the tip because I've worn that tip down. So

01:17:16   I don't know if maybe it's made of different types of material, different plastic, maybe

01:17:19   it's more resilient on the Apple Pencil, but I haven't needed to change it. But I can see

01:17:23   how somebody would. Over time it would wear away, but I don't know how long that time

01:17:26   is.

01:17:29   Matt asked if I had a recommendation for a 4 port USB charger.

01:17:45   It is the Anker 60W 6 port Family size desktop USB charger.

01:17:50   Thing is amazing.

01:17:52   Steven had one of these a couple of years ago and I bought one.

01:17:58   It is just a thing that you plug into the mains and you have six USB ports that you

01:18:02   can plug into.

01:18:03   And this is so fantastic when you travel with another person if you're both like heavy on

01:18:07   the Apple ecosystem.

01:18:08   Like me and Irina, we need at least five lightning charges, right?

01:18:13   Or like, well, we need two, one each for our phones, at least one iPad and then two Apple

01:18:18   watches.

01:18:19   And you just don't get that many outlets in hotel rooms.

01:18:23   And this I find to be nicer than taking a strip because I just have a bunch of cables

01:18:27   that are permanently connected to this thing in my travel bag and then wherever I'm ready

01:18:32   to go I can plug it in I can just use a travel adapter if I need to I can plug it in it's

01:18:35   a fantastic piece of technology and I recommend it to anybody that travels.

01:18:39   Cool.

01:18:40   So there you go.

01:18:41   Do you have anything like this?

01:18:42   No I've got a power strip that's got two USB ports on it and that does me fairly well.

01:18:49   It's one of those things where flexibility with having multiple devices in the kids it's

01:18:54   actually better to have some that are on their own plugs, because... but also

01:18:59   you know I'm not changing most of my travel I'm not changing plug types. For

01:19:03   you the advantage of something like this is you can get one you know plug adapter

01:19:08   into the wall in whatever you know in the US and you get all of those USB out

01:19:14   to charge whereas if you've got individual plugs you have to adapt the

01:19:18   individual plugs if you change countries to a different plug style so but I don't

01:19:23   I don't have anything like that. I've thought about it, but I don't at this point have anything like that

01:19:28   So we are now

01:19:31   Completed the regular episode of upgrade the what you have come for potentially is now done

01:19:37   And we are about to get into Myke at the movies

01:19:40   The Terminator is our Myke at the movies pick this week

01:19:44   So this is fair warning if you have not yet seen the Terminator and want to avoid spoilers

01:19:49   This is the time in which you would switch off

01:19:52   And but we're now going to do a sponsor horn, I guess. And thanks Squarespace for supporting

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01:21:47   Alright now let me get my secondary notebook out here because I've taken some notes today

01:21:53   Jason Snell about the movie that we watched. I've got a brand new notebook that I broke

01:21:59   out for The Terminator. It is the year 2029, the far off future. That's how it starts.

01:22:08   Would you like to, should we do it in regular fashion and I tell you what I thought I knew

01:22:12   about this movie before I watched it. Yeah, let's do it. I'll be back. I expected that

01:22:19   to be in here somewhere. I believed that the determinator was a robot slash cyborg slash

01:22:26   alien that came to destroy the earth. That's a lot of things. Well, like, it was like,

01:22:32   you know, I was thinking it's all of those things. Like, it is an alien, it's from another

01:22:35   planet but it's like a robot cyborg thing. Oh, okay. Cyborg, John Saracusa would tell

01:22:41   I'm aware of this.

01:22:42   It's not a robot.

01:22:43   Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

01:22:44   Uh, I believe that the Terminator came to destroy the Earth.

01:22:48   Um, I knew that it stole somebody's clothes at one point.

01:22:51   Uh, maybe a motorbike and maybe their skin?

01:22:54   I wasn't sure about that.

01:22:55   Like I wasn't sure if it had its own skin, the Terminator.

01:22:58   Interesting.

01:22:59   Um, I believe that in this movie, the Terminator found a heart of gold and saves the day from

01:23:06   some other big bad.

01:23:07   You are mixing...

01:23:08   After seeing the good in humans.

01:23:10   So you're mixing up, this is, we have a prelude to this last week when we talked about this

01:23:16   movie which is, you, I think a lot of your knowledge of the Terminator comes from Terminator

01:23:23   2.

01:23:24   It definitely does because this doesn't happen in this movie.

01:23:28   No.

01:23:29   And the Terminator action figure thing that I had looked not like this Terminator, like

01:23:35   it was the one with like all of the face metal, you see all of the metal, I think it's Terminator

01:23:40   Terminator. Yeah. Um, because there was no Hasta La Vista baby. No, that's Terminator

01:23:46   2. And that's what my action figure would say because it was one that made sounds. Yep.

01:23:51   So it was, uh, I'm, I'm definitely, so the movie that I thought that I'd seen as a kid

01:23:56   or that I didn't remember Terminator 2 because I was, that was a huge him helping out a child

01:24:02   and I now know who that child was. Um, and yeah, turns out not this. No, this is, this

01:24:09   This is, hey, many people, including me, experienced Terminator 2 having not seen the Terminator.

01:24:16   I didn't see the Terminator until much after I saw Terminator 2, but because that was a

01:24:20   huge summer blockbuster hit.

01:24:24   But this much more moderately priced, moderately budgeted film from 1984 is where it all started.

01:24:35   So would... actually first is this one of your favorite movies?

01:24:42   No I've seen it a few times and I like it. I also think it's worth seeing if you've seen

01:24:52   or plan to see Terminator 2. I think it's a very interesting film and kind of a classic

01:24:59   but it's not one of my personal favorites.

01:25:02   Would you, I think it's best to not, uh, not hide these things, you know, like

01:25:08   to, for me to just get out in the open about how I feel about this movie.

01:25:11   And then we can talk about it.

01:25:13   Let it out, Myke.

01:25:15   I didn't like this one, Jason.

01:25:16   Really?

01:25:17   Didn't like it at all.

01:25:18   I really, really just did not enjoy this movie.

01:25:21   Um, the music is horrific.

01:25:23   Like so bad.

01:25:24   It sounds like it was made on like a Casio keyboard.

01:25:27   It's terrible.

01:25:28   There is some good music in here, but most of it is terrible.

01:25:32   Yeah, I may have not noticed the good stuff, right? Because it was good, but I really noticed the bad stuff because it was horrific.

01:25:38   It is of its time and I think my argument would be in its time it wasn't very good.

01:25:45   Because I like 80s music.

01:25:47   Like, think of all of the movies we've seen. They're all 80s movies and I've not criticized it.

01:25:52   You're thinking about 80s pop music in movies. This is 80s soundtrack synth music.

01:26:00   where we were just talking about something comparable for Castle in the Sky, which is from 1982, something like that, 1986.

01:26:07   It's an early to mid-80s movie, and it's got a few moments of that same thing where it's like,

01:26:12   [imitates music]

01:26:14   and you're like, "Really? Are we playing a really bad video game all of a sudden?"

01:26:18   Like, I have one point in my notes for The Terminator, basically like,

01:26:22   "This is terrible action syntho-pulse music."

01:26:27   Like, I wonder how much better this movie would feel

01:26:31   if it was more traditionally scored than it is.

01:26:34   Like Terminator 2 is more traditionally scored.

01:26:37   - Right, okay.

01:26:38   - But there's a lot of synth music here.

01:26:41   And I mean, this is a very '80s movie too, but yeah,

01:26:44   I think the music is a big problem in it myself too.

01:26:47   - It looks weird to me and I don't know why this is.

01:26:52   So when I was watching the movie,

01:26:54   it felt like a long TV show.

01:26:57   And I don't know if it's like there's a lot of shaky cam in this which is a peculiar choice

01:27:02   And I don't know if it's maybe like I'm watching some

01:27:08   HD reproduction like it definitely was a HD reproduction. I don't know if maybe something is it in there?

01:27:14   I bought it from my team. I was shot, but it was shot on

01:27:16   Was it shot on 35 it might have even been shot on 16 millimeter

01:27:20   It's grainy and and dimly lit and a I mean it's I wouldn't call it a low-budget movie

01:27:26   but it's not a blockbuster movie. And Terminator 2 is a big-budget action movie, in some ways

01:27:33   helped define the modern big-budget action set piece kind of film because it was so successful

01:27:41   and it had the CGI Terminator and all these things in it. And this is not, this is a modest budget

01:27:47   where, you know, set in 1984 where there's a girl, just a regular girl who discovers that she's part

01:27:55   of this catastrophic event in the far future and is being hunted for, as

01:28:05   far as she can tell, no reason at all. And so it's dark and there's like, there's

01:28:09   cops and there's a, you know, there's a serial killer that's the phone book

01:28:14   killer they talk about that's killing people named Sarah Connor. It's not, if

01:28:20   you, if I went through this, if you watch Terminator 2 and then you go back to the

01:28:24   Terminator expecting like more of the same you're like what cuz Arnold

01:28:28   Schwarzenegger's in it Linda Hamilton's in it but it's not the same kind of

01:28:33   movie at all the makeup and special effects aged

01:28:37   terribly I will pick out some things when we go through some of the moments

01:28:44   okay there are some bad plot holes slash common sense problems which really

01:28:51   annoyed me. It's a time travel movie, they're gonna be bad plot holes but common sense is

01:28:56   a good way to put it. Common sense is a good way to put it. I let the time travel stuff

01:29:01   go because time travel timelines are always full of issues and just like the whole problem

01:29:07   of time travel movies like it's just a huge plot mess just doesn't matter how it's done

01:29:12   it's always an issue like if you're talking about like timeline. Why did this human being

01:29:15   do this thing? Yes, that's why I wanted to state like common sense problems. Yep, that's

01:29:20   a great way to put it. And I think some kind of not good performances

01:29:23   throughout. Yeah, alright, fair enough.

01:29:27   Alright, so we start off with space war. Yeah, in the far future there are, there are

01:29:34   horrible, there's a horrible like machine war going on.

01:29:38   And there are models, there are lots of models used here that are space vehicles. Well, this

01:29:42   is what I'm considering at this time, space vehicles, but they're earth vehicles, but

01:29:45   future vehicles. They didn't look good and this is a problem with HD, right? Like I

01:29:52   can't fault the movie for this. Well but you know on this on the big screen you

01:29:57   would have seen everything and more that you saw in HD. Then they're just terrible.

01:30:00   Like in the movie theater, yeah. Works for Star Wars, right? In Star Wars and

01:30:04   I know that it's all different like but in Star Wars it's the same kind of thing,

01:30:07   right? It's just small models that they're using. Yeah. But I can be fooled

01:30:11   by it and these I'm like this just looks like toys. Like they do like a close-up

01:30:15   up of these, uh, like these tank tracks and it just like, it just looks like a toy to me.

01:30:20   Um, I don't think that that looked very good. Um, and then I guess we start off with like the big

01:30:24   scene, naked Arnold Schwarzenegger. Yeah. He falls to the ground and,

01:30:31   oh my God, do you see more than I expected to see? There is a lot more of Arnold Schwarzenegger

01:30:38   in this movie than I thought there was going to be, Jason. Nobody prepared me for that.

01:30:44   - Give me your clothes.

01:30:47   - Yeah, that I saw more Ani than I expected today.

01:30:51   I knew he would be naked.

01:30:53   I was not expecting that much of an awful scenario.

01:30:56   - Yeah, oh yeah.

01:30:57   - But you get it, you get it.

01:30:59   And he got clothes from like some punk kids,

01:31:02   which again, another thing,

01:31:04   I thought that he got them from someone in a bar.

01:31:06   It's just one of those things that has become pop culture.

01:31:09   Terminator 2.

01:31:11   Then another naked person appears.

01:31:15   - Yes, Michael Bean shows up as Rhys.

01:31:17   He gets some 80s clothes of his own.

01:31:19   - Yep, I will just mention first name Kyle

01:31:23   because in my notes I refer to him as Kyle a lot

01:31:25   because I checked IMDB.

01:31:27   And like before the characters,

01:31:29   'cause I write my notes, right?

01:31:30   And I saw the name Kyle,

01:31:32   so I wrote the name Kyle down a lot.

01:31:33   But Kyle Rhys, he comes and he does not look

01:31:37   in as good a shape as Arnie.

01:31:40   know like he's got scars all over him and stuff so something something's gone

01:31:45   wrong here with our friend Mr. Reese. This is where the music is super bad it

01:31:50   begins like being super bad it's as I say it sounds like a cheap Casio keyboard

01:31:54   like when Kyle is being chased by the police. At this point whenever you see

01:32:02   Arnie the music is like this and it sounds to me like a train running on

01:32:08   tracks. If you've ever been under a bridge and a train goes overhead, that's what Arnold

01:32:14   Schwarzenegger sounds like, I guess.

01:32:16   - Yep, that's his theme. This is also where we meet Sarah Connor, who I just wanted to

01:32:21   say because in my notes I have this, that she looks as '80s as a person could be. She

01:32:28   is wearing acid-washed guest jeans. She is the '80s personified here.

01:32:35   And so I guess when we meet Sarah Connor and she's uh, she's comes into the movie, you

01:32:40   realize something's about to happen here. I think we're about 20 minutes in to the film

01:32:44   and I have literally no idea what's going on. Right. And I know this is the, I guess

01:32:50   this is the point, but like I'm like, have I missed something? Like I have no idea what

01:32:56   is happening in this movie. I don't know who or why any of those people are here. You know,

01:33:01   you kind of get nothing. Um, and then this is the point when like you start to see a

01:33:04   lot more of the evil intentions of Arnold Schwarzenegger and he's trying to find someone

01:33:08   called Sarah Connor and he goes to a house and he kills a woman but it's not the lady

01:33:11   that we think it's gonna be right and then you kind of realize at this point that he

01:33:16   is going through the phone book or like he's trying to find Sarah Connors and he wants

01:33:21   to kill her right but unfortunately started off with the wrong person I found it kind

01:33:28   of funny like when when the because Sarah Connors is in the worst diner of all time

01:33:36   everyone is really horrible there for some reason and wants immediate service which doesn't

01:33:39   happen I don't know if this really happens anywhere like everybody's screaming for service

01:33:44   all at once I don't think this is a thing but her friend comes to get her to show her

01:33:47   the news report about someone with the same name being killed so I don't think that this

01:33:52   is the thing they're like yeah that you would like come and look at this and she's like

01:33:56   "ah this is crazy!" I don't think this is like a thing that people would really pay

01:34:00   that much attention to. And then there are like eight people sitting around the TV screen

01:34:04   watching it, it's like really? Like this seems like a real thing to kind of hang your hat

01:34:10   on. Then there's kind of flashbacks where we then find out that the other guy, the hurt

01:34:18   looking guy. He's a fighter in the... He's a soldier in the space war, right?

01:34:23   Yep. There is a... There's some... This is... When I talk about bad acting or bad

01:34:29   performances, this is one of them. So he is running through these trenches with a

01:34:33   with a comrade and they're trying to take down this thing which I can only

01:34:38   kind of describe as a as an "at-at", right? Yeah, and this is this is the flash

01:34:43   forward there's a brief flash forward into the future mm-hmm and they're

01:34:48   throwing these grenades at it and he throws one and runs away then his

01:34:53   comrade a shot and then he's kind of just like non-plussed by this he's like

01:34:56   ooh and then just carries on like I'm assuming there's some kind of

01:35:00   relationship here like at friends at least that had to hurt it's like I got

01:35:04   stuff to do no time to waste and I just found that like a really cuz they took

01:35:10   enough to go to his face for him to give a face reaction like a facial reaction to the

01:35:14   death of a teammate like a soldier but he's like now whatever I gotta get out of here

01:35:20   and then like another one like he then jumps into a car and that person's killed and he's

01:35:23   like just gets out the car and leaves like he does not care for people getting killed

01:35:28   and then at the we go to the then we're back in the modern day again or the current day

01:35:33   and the yes we go to the police station where we find our police officer who's seen it all

01:35:39   know like he doesn't care about any crimes because he's seen all the crimes

01:35:43   this is lieutenant uh traxler but this one he's but once it's explained to him he's never

01:35:52   seen a phone book killer before i love it it's like ah i have no time for crime i've

01:35:57   seen all the crime but he's hard-nosed but was was concerned about this one and then

01:36:05   Our Sarah now is on her own.

01:36:07   - Is that Lance Henriksen?

01:36:08   I think that's, is that who that is?

01:36:10   - That is Paul Winfield.

01:36:13   Lance Henriksen is the detective.

01:36:15   - It's Paul Winfield and Lance Henriksen

01:36:17   are the cops there, yeah, that's right.

01:36:18   Both actually really great actors in little bit parts,

01:36:22   good character actors.

01:36:23   I like the cops, they're totally not prepared

01:36:26   for what they're going to get here,

01:36:28   but I do like the cops there.

01:36:30   - So then Sarah and her housemate

01:36:32   and eye seeming best friend, Ginger.

01:36:35   That to a nightclub.

01:36:36   Tech Noir!

01:36:37   The swingingest nightclub!

01:36:38   Oh no, we're not at Tech Noir yet.

01:36:41   Oh come on, okay fine.

01:36:42   We're not at Tech Noir yet.

01:36:43   I'm so excited about Tech Noir.

01:36:44   That is my favorite thing in the whole movie.

01:36:46   Okay go ahead.

01:36:47   Uh, Sarah stood up on a date, right?

01:36:50   And so she then goes out on her own and Ginger is going out with her boyfriend, who we're

01:36:55   introduced to as a bit of a creep.

01:36:58   There was something I wanted to mention about Sarah Connor.

01:37:01   Why do they take great pains to try and make her kooky?

01:37:06   Like she talks to the statue when she gets to the diner.

01:37:09   Yeah, you know, she has a pet lizard.

01:37:11   Okay, so I think what they're trying to do here, given what happens to her, this, you

01:37:15   can see it.

01:37:17   And I will say also the contrast between the character in this movie and the next movie

01:37:21   is breathtaking.

01:37:22   Like the effect of this movie on her in the next movie is one of the things you miss if

01:37:27   you haven't seen this movie is just how much her life changes because of what

01:37:31   happens here. But in this they want her to be the stock, a stock, you know, young

01:37:39   woman from an 80s, you know, comedy basically. They want her to be kooky and

01:37:46   she's got a bad job but she's just a regular girl. That's what they want.

01:37:50   They're trying very hard to establish that so that they can... because I really

01:37:55   believe James Cameron, the writer and director of this, felt like that was what this movie

01:38:00   was, was a collision of a, you know, murderous robot time travel action movie with an 80s

01:38:08   movie, like an 80s teen movie. I think that's what his premise kind of was, and so they

01:38:14   really try to sell you on Sarah Connor's quirky life before it gets completely ruined.

01:38:19   - Right.

01:38:21   - 'Cause there is a rom-com element here, right?

01:38:23   Because, or at least it's not, there's rom,

01:38:26   not so much com, but it is that, right?

01:38:28   'Cause she meets Kyle Reese

01:38:30   and they have their sort of love story

01:38:33   that runs through it a little bit too.

01:38:35   So clearly he's trying,

01:38:37   Cameron is trying to have that be part of the storyline here

01:38:41   is like a movie that you've seen before,

01:38:43   but the Terminator has come into ruin at all.

01:38:46   - Yeah, I guess.

01:38:47   It's just like the lizard thing.

01:38:48   I was like, really?

01:38:49   - Yeah, it's weird, it's weird.

01:38:52   - There are maybe other ways to do this.

01:38:53   I don't know what they are,

01:38:54   but it just seemed like a really strange,

01:38:56   just like a really strange choice.

01:38:57   - All the stuff with a roommate is weird, yeah.

01:39:00   - So Sarah goes out on her own,

01:39:02   and she's stood up, and she's in a pizza place,

01:39:04   and she finds out on the TV

01:39:06   that there are other Sarah Connors,

01:39:07   and she puts two and two,

01:39:08   like another Sarah Connors is killed.

01:39:10   So she kind of, Connor, I keep calling her Connors.

01:39:12   Sarah Connor is killed,

01:39:13   and she kind of puts two and two together,

01:39:15   and works out that she's probably in trouble, right? That there is a strong chance that

01:39:21   she is in trouble. But she then leaves the pizza place on her own. Like she just leaves

01:39:30   and she starts running and she's getting like kind of tailed by Reese. She doesn't know

01:39:37   at this point but she thinks it's a problem. So she then ducks into the bar, Tech Noir!

01:39:45   Which is a great name for a bar because it's terrible.

01:39:50   It is, and it is terrible. It's the tech-themed nightclub, the swinging

01:39:56   nightclub of Tech Noir.

01:39:58   [imitates music]

01:40:02   And then, uh...

01:40:03   It's bad, it's so bad.

01:40:04   She tries to call the police, has no luck, and then we flash back to the apartment and

01:40:09   And Terminator has arrived and kills Ginger thinking that it might be Sarah.

01:40:15   But then unfortunately Sarah calls, she calls the answer machine and gives her location

01:40:21   on the answer machine.

01:40:24   Now I have an issue with this which I'll get back to in a moment because initially I'm

01:40:26   like okay I can kind of see this right?

01:40:28   You're in trouble and you like you need to say like I am here I'm at this specific place

01:40:32   this is the phone number please try and find me like the police aren't helping me like

01:40:35   I can't get through to them.

01:40:39   Then it kind of goes back to Sarah, she calls the police, she finally gets through, the

01:40:43   detective says "stay there, we're sending a police car, they're gonna be right there"

01:40:47   The police are scrambling the city trying to find this person.

01:40:51   Then Arnie is there.

01:40:54   How did he get there so quick?

01:40:57   All she does is she hangs up the phone, she sits down, and he has arrived at the nightclub.

01:41:04   We know he doesn't move mega fast. He cannot run quicker than any human because there are many chase scenes on foot

01:41:11   He may have gotten in a car or some kind of vehicle to get there. But all that would tell me is that

01:41:17   Techno is

01:41:19   very close in proximity to

01:41:21   Apart apartment. So if that's the case, why does she need to be so specific on the phone to ginger?

01:41:29   About yeah, where this place is, you know, I would say it's kind of a horror movie trope that's happening here

01:41:35   Which is that the bad guy pops up immediately you left out a couple things that I want to mention which is

01:41:40   When the roommate and her boyfriend are killed

01:41:43   There's a scene where they don't know that the terminator is there because she's like wearing a walkman. Is that right?

01:41:49   Yeah

01:41:50   And and it's I felt like that was the message like you're shutting out the world you kids and your walk bands

01:41:55   And also also when she's when she's doing this she's making herself like the largest

01:42:00   sandwich in the biggest history we've like those ants on a log and a big glass of milk

01:42:06   I don't know what she's make it anyway, but she dies and it's it's it's very sad

01:42:11   So yeah

01:42:12   Then Arnold is there and he's gonna kill another Sarah Connor because that's what he's been sent back to do

01:42:17   but Kyle Reese is also there and just as

01:42:21   As Arnie is about to put a bullet into Sarah. He pulls out the shotgun that he took from earlier

01:42:26   We find out that he is a good guy because he yeah, he takes some shots at Arnie

01:42:30   The club clears but unfortunately many people are caught in the crossfire

01:42:35   So there are many deaths at techno sorry techno or that's why techno are is no longer a good name for no longer in business

01:42:42   Yep, because of the the unfortunate came to be known as the as the techno are killings

01:42:49   So they they had to change it also not only does he shoot Arnold and we basically learned that he's a robot at this point

01:42:56   This is the this is the reveal for people who didn't know what this movie was about

01:42:59   Right is that he's a he's a cyborg or whatever and that and that Kyle Reese is the good guy

01:43:04   But what Kyle says to Sarah here is important for Terminator 2 because he says come with me if you want to live

01:43:10   Yeah, I wrote that down

01:43:11   That's I know that line is then said by Arnold Schwarzenegger as the Terminator in Terminator 2

01:43:18   interesting yeah, then they make a run for it and

01:43:21   Determinate a he takes a police car, right and this is where we find out that he can imitate voices

01:43:28   Right makes me wonder why he has the accent that he has. Why did determinators settle on on that accent?

01:43:35   I think he was I think the voice synthesizer was programmed by an Austrian man. I

01:43:40   Guess so, right?

01:43:44   thing to me it's like he can choose any voice that was the one he just doesn't

01:43:47   have an Austrian accent it's just like in the future robot accents sound

01:43:52   Austrian they merge the robot that must have been it that must have been where

01:43:57   the technology was developed because we find out that the machines started a

01:44:01   nuclear war feels very much like sneakers to me they created defense

01:44:05   systems the defense systems realized that humans were the problem and they

01:44:09   wanted everybody dead and they're gonna kill everyone however Sarah's future son

01:44:13   this is Kyle Reese who's come from the future is explaining all this Sarah's future son

01:44:18   Will save humanity and that's why they want her to be killed. Yeah, this is this is in my notes

01:44:24   It's just written down as then he recounts the plot of Terminator 2

01:44:28   Because it's like literally he's just saying this is what will happen in Terminator 2 the machines

01:44:33   They'll send somebody back that they're trying to kill your son. It's like, okay got it got it write that down for later

01:44:39   But this is also when he's giving her the premise about who the Terminator is

01:44:43   That I like I really like this part because it it it makes it clear that this is a monster movie that you're actually watching

01:44:52   You're watching like the ultimate monster movie

01:44:55   He the line that he says it can't be bargained with or reasoned with it doesn't feel pity or fear

01:45:00   It won't stop until you were dead. So the idea that this is a relentless killing machine. You're its focus

01:45:05   We gotta run and that's what the rest of the movie is and I think a modern movie a

01:45:11   2017 movie would get to this in four minutes

01:45:15   but in in 1984

01:45:18   there's a lot of time spent with you know mystery and setup and and

01:45:22   Flavor of like her life and who she is and you have to get to this point where it's like, okay

01:45:27   This is what this movie is now. Yes, like an hour in yeah

01:45:31   "Yeah, our relentless killing machine is going to kill you, and we are going to try to stop it. Now let's go."

01:45:35   And that's it.

01:45:36   There's a car chase, and the cars crash, and the Terminator escapes in more mystery, you know?

01:45:42   Like in more magic. The robot magic that he has, he can escape in a flash.

01:45:47   Movie monster magic, yeah.

01:45:49   This is where Sarah and Rhys are arrested, and Sarah is kind of taken into protective custody,

01:45:54   and Rhys is interviewed, and obviously they don't believe his story, right?

01:45:59   because he sounds like a crazy person.

01:46:02   - They're in the police station.

01:46:04   They send a psychologist to talk to her

01:46:06   who's an awful, awful person.

01:46:08   - Yep.

01:46:09   And he kind of says,

01:46:12   "Oh, I can make my last work on this man," right?

01:46:14   'Cause he fully believes what he's saying.

01:46:17   We also see at this point Terminator operating on himself,

01:46:21   including where he pulls out an eyeball,

01:46:24   which made me just, I couldn't, I just--

01:46:26   - The X-Acto knife to the eyeball.

01:46:28   It's like, oh yeah.

01:46:30   - But after he does this, the prosthetic makeup

01:46:34   is so bad.

01:46:37   - Yeah.

01:46:38   - It just looks like a dead man is moving.

01:46:41   - Like I said, it's a monster movie

01:46:43   and yeah, it's not the best, yeah.

01:46:45   It's a cheap monster movie.

01:46:46   - I love how they get out of it by having him,

01:46:48   like he puts on sunglasses

01:46:49   and then he's back to regular Arnie face.

01:46:51   - Yeah, that's right.

01:46:51   - That's how you hide it.

01:46:52   Good work, everyone.

01:46:53   But it's, I don't know,

01:46:55   I don't know why they chose such a close up on that face. Like, it's like, all the whole

01:47:01   screen is just full of fake face. Like there is, they really shouldn't have done it that

01:47:05   way. It reminds me of Rogue One, right? Where like they create like CGI people but spend

01:47:11   way too much time focusing on the CGI people. It's like, pull back, reflections, totally

01:47:16   fine. So she's looking in a mirror, right? Just like do the shot over his shoulder in

01:47:21   the mirror. Like, I know you're super proud of yourself, but it can't have looked good

01:47:26   even then. Like, I can't imagine it did.

01:47:28   It feels like a shot from a horror movie where there's, like, the guy who did the fake blood

01:47:32   and the fake skin is like, "It's so cool! Look at that fake blood!" And they're like,

01:47:35   "Alright, I'll put a shot of your fake blood in the movie." But it's not that great.

01:47:40   So he goes to the police station, and we get that line that you've been looking for.

01:47:43   "I'll be back." He sizes up the wall and then just drives a car through it, which is great.

01:47:49   See, this is, this is the thing is, is I knew the line before I'd seen this movie.

01:47:53   Right.

01:47:54   And when it comes, I just started laughing because it's really funny.

01:47:59   Right.

01:47:59   It's like, you know, sir, you know, you're a visitor.

01:48:01   We got a lot going on here.

01:48:03   And he, and he just says, I'll be back.

01:48:05   And he leaves and drives a car right through the police station.

01:48:08   It's like, he's back.

01:48:10   He kept his promise.

01:48:12   It's just the brutality of it and how he's just like, I'll be back.

01:48:15   Yep.

01:48:15   That's right.

01:48:16   There's a reason that movement, that is a catchphrase.

01:48:18   That is a great moment.

01:48:20   He then makes short work of the police force.

01:48:23   Just mess.

01:48:24   Yes.

01:48:24   Like we got 30 guys here.

01:48:26   Yeah.

01:48:26   He just kills all the, all the cops.

01:48:27   Yeah.

01:48:27   Every single one of them doesn't even care.

01:48:29   No one even gets close to him.

01:48:31   It just destroys them.

01:48:31   Like I love it.

01:48:32   Like a couple of times he's like doing stuff and taking bullets.

01:48:34   It's like, Oh man.

01:48:36   Like, that's all it is like, ah, this is frustrating.

01:48:38   And it just kills everybody.

01:48:39   Yeah.

01:48:40   Um, but Sarah and, uh, Reese, they escape.

01:48:44   Yes.

01:48:45   With the help of a very fast synth synthesizer running in the

01:48:48   background. I do wonder why the cyborg can't run faster. I think it's a trade-off, right?

01:48:59   To- to- do you want the- the- I don't know. I- I've got- I've got some head-canon I could give you

01:49:06   about how that they- they built this cyborg to be shaped like Arnold Schwarzenegger because they went

01:49:10   for speed- they went for strength over speed or perhaps the size of the metal casing is so great

01:49:15   that they just can't, you know, they have to have a beefy, a beefy skin to put on them because they

01:49:20   just, they just, it's obviously not built for speed. It's not a running... If the beefy skin is slowing him down,

01:49:26   he's just ripped the leg skin off and just run off from him. No, but what I'm saying is the skin is covering the big

01:49:29   metal exoskeleton. Okay, so it's the weight of the exoskeleton. They don't make terminators in small.

01:49:35   Okay. Or speedy. He's also metal that's really heavy, so... Yeah. That's, that's, that's what I say about it.

01:49:43   This is not, he's not meant to, he's not meant to need to run, right? He can just kill everybody.

01:49:47   I think that's the idea.

01:49:49   So then, uh, there's like a scene with like, kind of, Kyle and, Kyle, Reese, and Sarah, kind of,

01:49:55   they're kind of getting close to each other, telling more stories, just explaining more about,

01:49:59   kind of, like, how all of this happened, why he was the one who came back, like, you know,

01:50:04   all that sort of stuff. He doesn't know the full story yet, we find that out later, but like,

01:50:08   There's like a flashback scene and he has a picture of her and all that sort of stuff.

01:50:12   And you can see there's going to be romance.

01:50:15   Your son had a picture of you. This is a little time travel business, right?

01:50:18   Your son had a picture of you. You were young like you are now, but you seemed so sad.

01:50:22   And this is your romantic, kind of like romantic moment here that happens between them.

01:50:29   But we'll pause that for just one second.

01:50:30   Yes.

01:50:31   Because they're in a hotel room, right? They're in a motel room. They're kind of

01:50:35   of hold up there they've got a dog that they've got outside because dogs can detect the cyborgs

01:50:40   terminators who knew just whatever yeah that's kind of cool it's creepy earlier you see you

01:50:46   see Arnold walking and there's dogs barking everywhere it's like all right that's kind

01:50:49   of like that it's like that's a cool thing yeah um at the hotel Reese is gonna go out

01:50:54   to get supplies he gives Sarah a handgun mm-hmm no point why does he do that I don't know

01:51:04   at this point we know that you can't kill yeah why did you write why does he

01:51:11   give her a handgun why does he even have one it's point on oh man like this is

01:51:17   like part of like I see these things immediately when I watch them and I just

01:51:20   wonder how it got yeah you're right it's it's action movie trope right like

01:51:24   instead it should be like can you give me a gun or something and have him say

01:51:28   what would be the point if he finds you a guns not gonna stop him right and

01:51:32   that's instead it's like sure have a gun stay here. It doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah no it's

01:51:37   like action movie it's a stock action movie moment and that's why it's in there. Yep then

01:51:41   I really like this part where she's on the phone to her mom. Her mom's in a cabin and like her

01:51:47   mom's like why don't you come here? It's like no I'm in the play it's like why don't you tell me

01:51:50   where I am and like she explains where she is and Terminator's just gone and found the mom killed

01:51:55   the mom and is doing the voice changing. Yep. Thought that was pretty cool I like that. That

01:52:00   - Yeah, and that's one of those things.

01:52:02   I mean, Terminator 2 in many ways is a remake of this

01:52:05   with a twist because so few people saw this

01:52:07   compared to Terminator 2, but--

01:52:09   - Right.

01:52:09   - And that's an effective scene

01:52:11   that is doubled in Terminator 2.

01:52:13   It's, yeah, he's gone to the parents

01:52:15   and has used her mother's voice

01:52:20   to impersonate her mother and get the information.

01:52:25   - So yeah, there's a romantic tie beginning

01:52:27   between the two of them,

01:52:28   which culminates in an extremely extensive, over-the-top and unnecessary sex scene.

01:52:33   Like, what the hell?

01:52:37   - All the things! - Everything!

01:52:39   - We've dumped in all the things! - It came out of nowhere!

01:52:42   And it lasted for way longer than I expected, and there was way more detail to it all.

01:52:49   And look, I know what they're trying to do, but it's not needed, right?

01:52:53   Like, they did this because they want to set up the fact that Rhys is the dad.

01:52:58   but you never needed to see this.

01:53:00   - I feel like they're like, it's a rated R movie,

01:53:02   we're gonna get away with it

01:53:03   because it's a rated R movie, so let's put it in,

01:53:05   let's give people some of this too.

01:53:07   But the 80s was a weird time.

01:53:10   Also Michael Biehn, and I had a debate with this,

01:53:12   with Erika Ensign on the incomparable about it,

01:53:15   'cause she thinks he's dreamy.

01:53:16   And I just think he is a not particularly charismatic

01:53:19   kind of blank, and I kept thinking that this relationship

01:53:23   might've been more effective if there was an actor

01:53:24   who is a little more charismatic.

01:53:27   but she said, "No, absolutely not."

01:53:28   So, you know, your mileage may vary.

01:53:30   - It's not the relationship that I have an issue with.

01:53:32   It is the extensiveness of this scene.

01:53:35   - Yeah, oh yeah, I get it.

01:53:36   I get it.

01:53:37   I just, I wanted to mention,

01:53:37   I wanted to take my shot at Michael Biehn when I could.

01:53:41   - I do.

01:53:42   - I think he's kind of boring, but yeah, it is extensive.

01:53:44   - I do totally not buy that she falls in love with him

01:53:47   like this, like I don't get it.

01:53:49   I mean, maybe it's because she's just looking up to him

01:53:51   because he saved her life, right?

01:53:52   Like, and that's kind of swept her up in the whole thing.

01:53:54   I can totally see that.

01:53:56   But it's, it's like as well, like she mentions, like at the end of the movie,

01:53:59   like we had a lifetime of love in the few hours we were together.

01:54:02   Oh, I didn't see this happening.

01:54:04   No, no.

01:54:05   They have, they had one conversation under like an underpass and then they went to

01:54:09   the hotel room and then that was it.

01:54:12   Yeah.

01:54:13   Yeah.

01:54:14   Well, you know, yeah, there's a, there's shorthand here, but we're, we're asked

01:54:18   to believe that in between all the scenes, we saw amazing things happen that we

01:54:22   didn't see, which happens in a lot of movies.

01:54:24   And it's definitely true in this one where, you know, the movie is really banking on you

01:54:28   kind of going from point A to point B and believing that there was stuff that connected

01:54:33   them in the middle.

01:54:34   And if you can believe it, then it works for you.

01:54:37   But if you leave that gap, it's too wide a gap, then it won't work for you.

01:54:41   And I agree here.

01:54:42   It doesn't seem, they kind of overdo it with the, with the, you know, lifetime of love

01:54:48   thing.

01:54:49   I mean, I would actually understand it more if it was more like they're on the run, you

01:54:53   know he they just barely escaped with their lives they they are together

01:54:57   they're two young attractive people they have sex and then you know later it's

01:55:02   like well he was a great guy he saved my life we shared a moment and now I have a

01:55:06   baby but that's not what she says this lifetime of love thing it's like what

01:55:12   yeah yeah it's like they're adding romance in in a way that doesn't comport

01:55:19   with the like what they've shown it just it's really strange.

01:55:23   Now the 80s was a weird time I think maybe also there's the idea that they

01:55:26   wanted since these are our heroes they want to have it be this that it was an

01:55:30   act of love that that created John Connor when you know the the

01:55:35   performances and scenes don't really show it being an act of love per se

01:55:40   they're like little words are gonna go with it we need to do that we need to we

01:55:44   need to have it be meaningful because otherwise it's just it's just sex in a

01:55:48   hotel sex in a motel somewhere it's like that's not enough that's what I was

01:55:51   trying to get it I understand that but the wholesomeness of doing that doesn't

01:55:55   comport with the graphic ness of the sex scene yeah I know it's weird this is

01:56:01   what I can't wrap my head around it it's yeah you're not wrong so then there's

01:56:06   another car chase Reese is hurt in this car chase a little bit and then they

01:56:13   crash a car car flips over they're getting away and the Terminator

01:56:17   commandeers a fuel truck. Which cannot outrun a human, turns out, that Sarah Connor can

01:56:25   run faster than this truck can drive. Doesn't matter how long this chase is running on for.

01:56:32   We're looking at a good couple of minutes in real time that she is outrunning this truck.

01:56:37   Just doesn't make any sense. They're going down a straight road at one point. He's coming

01:56:41   down a hill and he can't get to speed to catch her and also as well so they've created bombs

01:56:48   earlier he doesn't know how to drive a truck he's got the gears in the wrong gear no because

01:56:52   he scans it which i thought was pretty cool right like he scans it and can instantly understand

01:56:57   how to operate the machine which i did quite a lot i was like yeah look you took time to

01:57:00   fill that plot hole and then they make bombs earlier in the movie uh reese throws a bomb

01:57:09   into a hole in the back of the gas truck so it'll explode. He jumps into a dumpster to

01:57:16   protect himself from the explosion but just doesn't give any warning to Sarah who's like

01:57:22   in front of the thing running. It's like thanks dude, like you just go protect yourself. The

01:57:29   truck explodes, great explosion and I love all the fire scenes right like him being on

01:57:34   on fire and that all looked really good. I bought all of that but there we get terrible

01:57:41   stop motion robot. Yeah it's a Ray Harryhausen style King Kong you know stop motion robot.

01:57:47   I don't know why they did this because they have scenes where they've got like an animatronic

01:57:52   right from the shoulder up they should have just used that all the time. All of the stop

01:57:57   motion stuff looks ridiculous. Yeah I think it's a case of they wanted to they wanted

01:58:02   to have that full-on robot and so they do the stop-motion version and and it

01:58:07   didn't turn out maybe like they hoped but that was what they had to use so

01:58:10   they yeah it is it's it's really it's really dated yeah I feel like they could

01:58:15   have just gone like come at the frog with it and just like shown torso and

01:58:19   they're moving legs you know like just shots of that like because it done done

01:58:23   like a lower leg puppet and then the upper leg animatronic and just not even

01:58:28   Yeah. Because... Or have it be very brief of like a cutaway and then cut back.

01:58:32   And green screen technology is not good enough, right? At this point in time.

01:58:35   No, it's tough. It's tough.

01:58:36   When they're closing the door and it's like a clear green screen, like it's not very good.

01:58:40   Yeah.

01:58:41   But, you know, there's like this big fight and they've...

01:58:46   He puts another bomb into the rib cage of the Terminator and it explodes and...

01:58:50   Are they in the factory now? Is that what you're talking about?

01:58:52   They're in the factory, yeah.

01:58:53   Okay, so I like a lot of things in the fact... I mean, I think it's very...

01:58:55   This is good action scenes here.

01:58:57   The action stuff here is really good as it builds to the climax here.

01:58:59   In the factory, there's a funny moment, you know, that the, uh, it's a robotic

01:59:03   factory, which I really like, cause it's like the Terminator walks into the

01:59:07   robotic factory and it's like, Hey, it's my people.

01:59:09   Here they are.

01:59:10   Hey guys.

01:59:11   Yeah.

01:59:11   He said something here about why turning the robots on would help.

01:59:14   And I couldn't catch it.

01:59:16   Yeah.

01:59:17   Something about like it will, it will mean that we can't, they can't track us.

01:59:20   Yeah.

01:59:21   I don't know.

01:59:21   They're the, the, yeah.

01:59:23   Yeah.

01:59:24   But anyway, so they're in the robot factory and then he sticks

01:59:27   a bomb in the Terminator. Boom. Yeah, and it blows the Terminator up, kills Kyle

01:59:35   Reese, right? Like, this kills him. Yeah, Sarah's wounded and Kyle is dead, yeah.

01:59:40   But this Terminator will not stop. It's a horror movie, right? It's a horror movie

01:59:44   monster, so the Terminator, even with all of that, the Terminator has been blown

01:59:48   apart but is not dead. It's still got its kind of upper body. Yeah, and also Sarah

01:59:56   is injured like she's hurt her leg like yeah like it's been pierced in one of

01:59:59   the explosions she got out completely unscathed from the gas truck exploding

02:00:03   but but so you get that another classic suspense thing here where she is slowed

02:00:08   but the Terminator is also slowed because it's just parts of the

02:00:12   Terminator now so she's crawling away and it's crawling together yeah she like

02:00:17   pulls down this is great and it gets its arm through and it kills her at the arm

02:00:21   but then she presses a button on like what basically the tunnel they just

02:00:25   called through as a machine. It's a hydraulic press that they've

02:00:29   crawled through and now she crushes him and says you're

02:00:34   terminated. Yeah, yeah, yeah, terminated. And that got him. That's it. Then we kind of flash forward in time and Sarah is on the

02:00:46   road. She's in Mexico, yeah. She's recording tapes of her thoughts to her

02:00:52   unborn baby you can see she's pregnant mm-hmm and she she stops at a gas

02:00:58   station a child takes a photo of her which he has to pay just pay four bucks

02:01:02   to get it right and she's like ah great hustle and this is the photo that it

02:01:07   will be left for the baby to give to Kyle Reese in the future yep right and I

02:01:14   like here that they actually address the timeline which I quite like that

02:01:19   actually where like she addresses that everything has to happen for it to happen.

02:01:23   Yeah.

02:01:24   Which is something is usually glossed over in a lot of time travel movies.

02:01:27   Right.

02:01:28   But they actually address the timeline like that it all makes sense within that.

02:01:33   Uh, and I, I thought, okay, good.

02:01:35   I'm pleased that you did that.

02:01:36   Um, and then, oh God, there's a storm coming.

02:01:40   There's a storm coming.

02:01:41   I know.

02:01:43   Oh, really?

02:01:46   Yeah.

02:01:46   Really?

02:01:47   Like it's not a storm, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't a storm that

02:01:51   sent all these robots crazy.

02:01:53   They don't like the weather.

02:01:55   They don't like the wind.

02:01:56   Wind makes robots very angry.

02:01:58   Yep.

02:02:00   The Terminator.

02:02:03   Can you see why this, why people liked this movie?

02:02:07   Like the action.

02:02:09   I mean, this is a, I'll say this too.

02:02:11   If you think about Schwarzenegger, eighties action movies, like this

02:02:14   is viewed as an action movie.

02:02:16   It's like, oh, this has a lot more

02:02:18   than your usual action movie or your usual monster movie.

02:02:20   It's got the extra time travel twist

02:02:25   and the fact that he's a relentless,

02:02:27   not vampire or a zombie or something, but he's a cyborg.

02:02:30   Like viewed in the context of kind of crappy

02:02:34   '80s action movies, which Arnold Schwarzenegger

02:02:38   made a lot of, along with Sylvester Stallone

02:02:40   and a bunch of other people.

02:02:42   I think this movie comes out as being a standout, but viewed from another perspective, it is,

02:02:50   you know, it is what it is. It is a product of that genre.

02:02:56   Yeah, for me, it's just, the special effects are bad, but I can excuse them.

02:03:02   Yeah. No, the action's good and the special effects are bad, the music is bad, yeah.

02:03:06   And the common sense holes, they just really frustrate me because some of them just feel

02:03:13   so simple.

02:03:19   Namely the speed in which Arnie can travel to places but can't run fast enough to catch

02:03:24   anybody on foot.

02:03:25   Yeah, that's horror movie logic.

02:03:29   Yeah.

02:03:30   I know this is all horror movie stuff, right?

02:03:32   But this isn't a horror movie.

02:03:33   I know there are horror movie tropes in it, but I'm less willing to accept it because

02:03:37   in action movies, and action movies tend to be based more on reality.

02:03:42   And also there is no mystical, you know, like with monsters in horror movies, there is a,

02:03:48   you know, like, "Oh, what is powering this monster?

02:03:51   Is there magic involved?"

02:03:52   But like, we know that's not the case because we know this is a cyborg.

02:03:55   Like we know what Terminia is, like it's explained to us clearly, like what this thing is and

02:03:59   what it's capable of.

02:04:02   Yeah, there are just things in it that I just didn't like.

02:04:04   And the action scenes were good,

02:04:07   but they weren't really good enough.

02:04:09   The relationships between everybody is just weird

02:04:13   in a way that doesn't make sense.

02:04:16   Yeah, this movie didn't float my boat.

02:04:18   - Fair enough.

02:04:18   I think it's good to have seen it

02:04:21   and there's some fun things in it.

02:04:23   It is dated.

02:04:25   It launched a huge franchise.

02:04:27   So I think that alone makes it worth seeing.

02:04:30   totally can see how Terminator 2 is better than Terminator. And we should

02:04:34   watch that at some point because it is a movie that is in most ways, maybe

02:04:39   not all, but in most ways maybe all actually, superior to this one. But I

02:04:45   think it is good to have seen this because there are payoffs in Terminator

02:04:49   2 in 1991, you know, seven years later that really work better when you, you

02:04:57   You know, just seeing Sarah in Terminator 2, you're like, "Oh my God," right?

02:05:02   Like she is completely different than the soft diner waitress that we eat here.

02:05:09   And so seeing them in succession, there's those payoffs.

02:05:13   And come with me if you want to live, the fact that that Terminator is sent back to

02:05:16   protect John Connor.

02:05:18   So Arnold Schwarzenegger goes from being the villain in this movie to the hero in the next

02:05:22   movie, is a brilliant twist on it.

02:05:26   But again, I feel like it plays better if you can see where it starts and then see the

02:05:30   twist.

02:05:31   So for these reasons, I think it's kind of required viewing, or at least it helps a lot.

02:05:36   But yeah, it's not a movie I revisit a lot.

02:05:39   It was fun to revisit it, but it's not a movie that I consider essential in any other way.

02:05:44   But now you're literate on it.

02:05:45   Now people can talk about the Terminator and they'll say something and you'll be like,

02:05:48   "Actually, I think that was Terminator 2 because I just saw the Terminator.

02:05:51   I can tell you what's in that one."

02:05:52   Is it techno music?

02:05:53   Is it electronic music?

02:05:54   music from 1982 detect more yeah technoir I don't believe reappears sorry

02:06:01   when we open a nightclub me and you when we're done with this tech class game

02:06:05   Myke and Jason's tech noir yep so we'll call it

02:06:09   well I found out this week head on over to relay.fm /upgrades - 1 to 9 thanks

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02:06:19   want to find Jason online he is over at six colors calm the incomparable calm

02:06:23   and on twitter @jsnell and I am @imike on twitter. Thanks so much for listening, we'll

02:06:33   be back next week, until then, say goodbye Jason Snow.

02:06:36   Bye everybody. I'll be back. There it is, there it is. I was like what's happening?

02:06:41   Look at the movies. I'll be back.

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