0:00:00[intro music]
0:00:09From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 121.
0:00:13Today's show is brought to you by our fine sponsors, Smile and Ecapsular.
0:00:17My name is Myke Hurley, and I am joined, still, in the festive season by Mr. Jason Snell.
0:00:23Happy Boxing Day, Myke.
0:00:25The day of Boxers in which we celebrate all of the boxes that we got the day before. We
0:00:31line them all up and we dance around them.
0:00:33And we punch them.
0:00:34And then we punch them. Yep, it's double type of boxing on Boxing Day.
0:00:37And my dog is a boxer, so it's her day too.
0:00:40We bring boxer dogs in to round up the cardboard boxes and then we fight them.
0:00:46And then that's the best day.
0:00:49So we are recording on the 26th of December, Boxing Day, which means that yesterday was
0:00:54Christmas and I believe that we both participated in the tradition of gift-giving. So, Jason
0:01:00Snell, what was your favorite holiday gift this year?
0:01:04- Uh, this year my wife got me a, we are going to a baseball game in, I forget when it is,
0:01:13April or May, and it's, uh, and it's, uh, like, craft beer night or something. So there's
0:01:19before the game, like two hours before the game, there's like a craft beer tasting, like
0:01:25fair and stuff that's in the ballpark and then and you get I think you get a hat or
0:01:30something and then you also get to go see the baseball game and it's fun so it's like
0:01:34a little little event that I can look forward to in 2017. So that was I would say that's
0:01:38probably the best I got. I got some other stuff you know you get socks, foot cardigan
0:01:43socks in this case and the I got some tea and some honey which is great because I like
0:01:50those things in the morning and yeah that was that was me that was me what about you
0:01:56just quickly craft brew like craft beer and baseball and baseball there is a strong chance
0:02:03that might turn out to be the best day of your life that's still my favorite no but
0:02:08but that's the thing Myke you you know that because for me but the fact is that that that's
0:02:12also like the most San Francisco thing ever. That's true. It's very, you know, all those
0:02:18things. It's just a very American thing. But you have a baseball now, so. I do. It's sitting
0:02:23on my windowsill just over there. I unpacked it a couple of days ago. You're becoming more
0:02:27American by the day. So I, so this year, because we just moved in, everyone was buying us lots
0:02:34of practical gifts. Lots of gift cards for homeware stuff and glassware, you know, stuff
0:02:40like that. So Adina knows how much I enjoy toys at Christmas, so she surprised me with
0:02:48a drone. I saw the video. I was beside myself with excitement. I now have a Parrot Bebop
0:02:592 drone, which is, it's like a kind of middle of the line type thing, right? These aren't
0:03:06the drones that cost like $1,000, but they're very expensive still because they have cameras
0:03:10in them and they're controlled with an app on my iPhone and I took it out for a couple
0:03:15of flights and I'm looking forward to when we get back from our trip because there's
0:03:20a big park near where we live because we've been at my grandma's the whole weekend and
0:03:24we're gonna go take it for some test flights there. I'm really excited about this because
0:03:28it's like I mean I don't expect to start incorporating a plethora of drone footage into my vlogs
0:03:34but it's just like a fun silly toy that I want to play around with because eventually
0:03:39like I have my eyes set on one of the big expensive ones because I just think it's kind
0:03:43of cool and I was so excited to get this. And honestly, even the footage that this thing
0:03:49produces, it's super impressive to me. I think it looks brilliant. So I'm very excited about
0:03:55this.
0:03:56I enjoyed your Twitter video that you posted, which was also funny because you are looking
0:04:03like you're beside yourself indeed and Adina is just amused by the whole thing.
0:04:08like wearing a Christmas cracker hat. Yeah, wearing her hat. I had one of those on last
0:04:13night and the one that, the thing that made me laugh is that, is that the, you know, the
0:04:18drone rises and I just kept waiting for it to crash. But it didn't. No, I was good. I
0:04:24made sure to have a good, a good air above me and I planned out the place specifically
0:04:29because I knew nobody was going to be around because I was worried that I might crash into
0:04:32somebody's face. They're actually not too difficult to control. You know, they have
0:04:37like a bunch of sensors in them and things like that to try and keep them
0:04:40balanced because it was pretty windy and you can see it like it you know when
0:04:44you're watching it it does a lot to stabilize itself it's very impressive
0:04:47technology in those things so yeah that's my new toy talking about new toys
0:04:53I did receive a new toy of mine that I bought for myself after last week's
0:04:57episode just my air pods oh that's right we were waiting for them to arrive and
0:05:02and they didn't they weren't delivered during the episode they came just as I
0:05:06was finishing editing. I really really like these things a lot. You know I've
0:05:12seen many people say this and I can only agree that these AirPods is kind of
0:05:16Apple at its finest. I agree. Because it's like this little little box with
0:05:21something inside of it which you've never really experienced before in the
0:05:24way that they've done it right like we've all used Bluetooth headphones but
0:05:27again it's just like there's no wire between them and when you take one out
0:05:31it pauses and you know like all these little things that Apple does like just
0:05:36their little sprinkle of magic fairy dust that they put on their products.
0:05:41Like this is very much like that.
0:05:42And it's been a long time since we've had a product like this from Apple,
0:05:45because there haven't been many types of things that they've had to improve upon
0:05:50in their way.
0:05:50I was thinking that the last time Apple released a product that I think struck
0:05:56me as being like this, like, like it's just exactly Apple, um, was the, it was
0:06:04the pencil. The pencil last year. Yeah, the pencil's a good example. Very good example actually.
0:06:09They come from that word, it's like there is this thing that already exists, a stylus,
0:06:13but how can we make it our version of that, right? There's this thing that exists, wireless
0:06:18headphones, let's make our version of those, and it feels very much like that. And it's, you know it's a
0:06:23high-tech product that's incredibly complicated and difficult to design. Because it has little
0:06:28lights and magnets, you know, like there's those little touches. In the end, the interface is
0:06:32is nothing, is non-existent. And that's, you know, the pencil is absolutely the case, right?
0:06:37It has no interface at all. And with the AirPods, the interface is incredibly minimal. And I
0:06:44think there's things to probably criticize about that. And I did, after we had our chat,
0:06:49of course, I did go back to writing my review and we'll put a link in and I posted that.
0:06:53But, you know, I think it's a first cut at this product for Apple and that there's a
0:06:59a lot of stuff that they could improve and yet it's still like, I mean,
0:07:02you could have said that about the original iPhone too, uh,
0:07:05but still you just get that moment of like, Oh yeah, this is, this is what I,
0:07:08this is, this is what all of us, I think,
0:07:10expect from Apple with every product they do, which is unfair because they can't,
0:07:14you can't do it with every product,
0:07:16but it's this combination of pushing forward technology,
0:07:20popularizing some stuff that was existed before,
0:07:23but was not quite good enough and doing a few little things that add,
0:07:28add care and personality to the product and the AirPods really have them. They really
0:07:35do.
0:07:36>> A lot of the early complaints when we saw these things, you know, like just from observing
0:07:39them without ever using them was, oh, you know, just playing pause and asking Siri to
0:07:43do this stuff for me is ridiculous. But the fact of the matter is, like, now that I've
0:07:48used them, I can see that the sensors that are detecting those taps are nowhere near
0:07:52sensitive enough. Like, if you -- I don't know how well it could detect between a double
0:07:58tap and a triple tap. I just think, you know, this is one of those things where like Apple
0:08:03obviously know what they're doing. And now I've used it, like they obviously know what
0:08:06they're doing. If they could have somehow put in a tap three times to skip or whatever,
0:08:12they would have done that. But these things, they're just not, you know, you have to sometimes
0:08:16really give it a bit of a thunk to get it to do anything, which is actually kind of
0:08:20uncomfortable. Like you should kind of smack in the side of your head. Like it's not really
0:08:24a great method. My hope would be, and I'm sure that they are trying to work on this,
0:08:29is some kind of just very slight touch gestures, you know, like swipe left, swipe right, swipe
0:08:35up, swipe down, you know, like on a small touch interface that they could build into
0:08:38the back of it, which seems like a incredibly difficult thing to do, but I have absolute
0:08:43faith that they would be able to pull that off at some point in the future.
0:08:46Sure.
0:08:47That seems like technology that exists already, but is just, you know, not small enough, but
0:08:53I believe that that would be something that Apple would be able to do, you know?
0:08:57However, they would do it, you know, they might use some kind of light sensor or something.
0:09:01But overall like I'm I'm really, you know, I'm really I'm really impressed and also showing them to my family over Christmas
0:09:08That was everybody was impressed with them as well
0:09:11Like they loved the way it all worked like the case and the pausing when you remove one type stuff like and it reminded me
0:09:18me of how it used to feel to be the person who had Apple products before anybody else
0:09:25really had them. You know, like before the iPhone or like before the iPhone 4, right,
0:09:29when you could show somebody an Apple product and they were like, "Whoa, what is this? Like,
0:09:34I've never seen something like this before." Like it reminded me of that because everyone
0:09:36was like, they would take it out and it would pause and it would put it back in and it was
0:09:40like, "Oh my God, that's amazing." And being the end user of an Apple product, their products
0:09:45still do that, but you don't get to be the person to demo them anymore because everybody
0:09:50already has the new iPhone, you know? So I don't know, that was kind of, that was cool,
0:09:54but the consensus was, and you know, I think will continue to be that they look weird and
0:09:59a little bit silly.
0:10:00Yeah, well it'll take time.
0:10:02Exactly, that this will just take time and then people won't care about that anymore.
0:10:06Like I understand that, right? Because they do, I think they look ridiculous when I'm
0:10:09wearing them. I'm like, oh my God, this looks so silly. Like just these stalks sticking
0:10:13out in my ears, but that's just because they're new. And within a couple of years' time, this
0:10:18is just how they'll be. Like, you know, I think that maybe within the next two or three
0:10:21revisions, they might be included in the box. I hope they are.
0:10:25Yeah, well, I don't know about that. That might take a while, but I do...
0:10:29That was a funny thing talking to my family, that a bunch of people, like friends of my
0:10:35family, thought that the AirPods did come with the new iPhone.
0:10:39Oh. Yeah.
0:10:40Which is, I can see how people would assume that, right?
0:10:42Like, we're taking away the headphone jack.
0:10:45Here's these new headphones we've made.
0:10:47You just assume that it would be in the box?
0:10:49Yeah.
0:10:50Absolutely.
0:10:51You know, I think it's, maybe not within the next few revisions, but I think eventually,
0:10:55right, like eventually these are going to be the things that come with the iPhone, I
0:10:59assume.
0:11:00Yeah.
0:11:01And everybody eventually is going to be used to little things sticking out of your ears
0:11:05too.
0:11:06I think that's only a matter of time.
0:11:07So yeah, I'm really impressed with them.
0:11:09- Yeah, I think, yeah, that was, that was in many ways
0:11:14a pretty easy review for me to write because, you know,
0:11:18I really liked them.
0:11:19I mean, that's like, I didn't need to search my feelings
0:11:22for the complexity of the, I'm like, no,
0:11:24these are really good.
0:11:25They've got some issues. - There really isn't
0:11:26much downside at all, is there?
0:11:27- You know, relying on Siri and those double taps being,
0:11:32you know, like somebody's knocking in the middle
0:11:34of your head are not the best.
0:11:37Yeah, and like we said last week,
0:11:40like the fact that in no internet circumstances,
0:11:44they just don't work.
0:11:45Like there's no capability for it to do basic processing
0:11:49on the phone, which they used to have.
0:11:51That's dumb.
0:11:51There are things that they could fix with software
0:11:54and then there are things that I hope they fix.
0:11:56Like I would love to be able to assign different gestures
0:11:59to the left and the right ear, for example,
0:12:01for those double taps, that would be cool.
0:12:03But, you know, I don't know if any of that is possible,
0:12:07but it's all potential future versions of this.
0:12:11But for a version of one product, I mean, it's great.
0:12:13Somebody asked me, so I was writing a story.
0:12:16I was writing one of my Mac World columns.
0:12:17I decided to write it at Starbucks down the street.
0:12:22And I brought my iPad,
0:12:24and I actually tried out a new keyboard.
0:12:26I tried out the Brydge keyboard for the iPad Pro.
0:12:31And so I was trying all that stuff out,
0:12:33and I was sitting at the table and I was using my AirPods
0:12:37and a guy asked me, do you like them?
0:12:40And I said, yeah, they're really good.
0:12:41And he said, are they worth it?
0:12:42And I said, well, you know,
0:12:45you get headphones in the box, right?
0:12:47So those are free.
0:12:48And are they worth it is such a hard question
0:12:53'cause it's like, well, I mean, it matters,
0:12:57like what's it worth to you?
0:12:58Wireless headphones are really convenient.
0:13:01they don't get in your way. They stay in your ears, there's nothing dangling down there
0:13:06in certain circumstances. If you're particularly active or if you're like, for me, it's always
0:13:12like the cord getting snagged in the kitchen. Like there's so many things that are better
0:13:16about not having the cords, but you know, but you pay for it. And these are not unreasonably
0:13:24priced for a set of wireless headphones that sound like this, wireless earbuds. But still,
0:13:30you get a free pair of corded ones in the box. So that was a tough question that I didn't
0:13:34really have a good answer for which is like, you know, how much do you want to spend on
0:13:39having these kind of fun and more convenient in many ways headphones and that make your
0:13:45own decision there.
0:13:47I mean, as with most of these types of new products, I would say wait to the next one.
0:13:52Like if you're asking that question, just wait for the next ones because they'll be
0:13:55better. It will be more worth it. You know, they might be cheaper. Who knows? But like
0:13:58they'll be better. Like if you're fine with it now, like wait. But if you are a person
0:14:03who enjoys fun technology, like most of the people listening to this show, I think you
0:14:07get a real kick out of these if you own them, in all honesty.
0:14:10- Yeah. I also, I mean, I think the argument of you can wait for the next one only goes
0:14:14so far because you can always wait for the next one, right?
0:14:17- Well, sure. But you know, like this is a version one though, right?
0:14:20- But you're right. If you want to feel like you're part of the future and you're doing
0:14:22something that everybody's going to be using products like this in five years, but you
0:14:25could get it today but you have to pay for the AirPods to do that and that's true. It's
0:14:33interesting because what's it worth to you is the answer there. You don't need to buy
0:14:39a new iPhone this year, you can just keep last year's iPhone. There are lots of things
0:14:42people don't need to pay for. Do you need to buy a pair of AirPods? You absolutely don't
0:14:47need to buy a pair of AirPods. It's just a matter of do they offer you enough to make
0:14:53it worth what the price is. But for a version one product, they're pretty great. I mean,
0:14:57like I don't have any of those real wait till version two if you're on the fence kind of
0:15:02feels about this product. It's also I'm not convinced that there will be a substantial
0:15:08revision to them for a couple of years, but I think they're pretty good as is.
0:15:14Next week, the show everybody's been waiting for.
0:15:18Oh yes. The Upgradies.
0:15:20Now we have the third annual upgrade is going out next week.
0:15:24We're very excited.
0:15:25The voting is closed.
0:15:26We have a good idea of where who our winners are going to be.
0:15:30We and Jason have our own votes and I'm sure we're both very confident in those votes.
0:15:35We know what the listener votes are.
0:15:36It's all very exciting.
0:15:37It's all coming together.
0:15:38And we have a little secret surprise.
0:15:41If you are somebody who has the iMessage sticker app from the relay, sticker pack from the
0:15:46relay FM app installed.
0:15:47So if you have the Relay FM app, you can get our iMessage sticker pack.
0:15:51There is an upgradey sticker which you will now find within that sticker pack.
0:15:56It appeared a couple of days ago secretly, as we were able to do, because the iMessage
0:16:01sticker pack stuff is actually very, very advanced.
0:16:05It's pretty cool.
0:16:06So you can go there, you can take a look, and you can send your friends all of the things
0:16:11that you think are winning all of the upgradeies.
0:16:15So you can send them out and have fun with that.
0:16:17So there's an ugly little sticker
0:16:19with more fantastic artwork from @forgottentell,
0:16:22our incredible graphic designer that we work with
0:16:25and collaborate with.
0:16:26And we have some very special artwork
0:16:28that will appear in the show notes as well.
0:16:31Commemorate the upgrade is for this year.
0:16:34- So tune in or podcast in on January 2nd
0:16:37and you will get that very special episode.
0:16:40It's a pre-taped episode.
0:16:42We won't be live for the people who listen live,
0:16:44but we will be providing on that date while we're traveling.
0:16:48We will have pre-taped that episode
0:16:51and you'll be able to hear it.
0:16:52- Like all good award shows,
0:16:54we have to have a tape delay in case something happens.
0:16:58- Sure. - You know?
0:16:59In case we have a run in or you never know.
0:17:01So we gotta make sure we're prepared.
0:17:02- Never in a streaker, a streaker, yeah.
0:17:04- Exactly, exactly.
0:17:05- Is that what you call streakers in England, a run in?
0:17:10Somebody runs onto the field somewhere, is that a run in?
0:17:12Well no, I mean they're still called Streakers, but Streakers are naked, you know, there might
0:17:16be someone who's not naked, right?
0:17:18Who just runs in and waves and it's like woohoo.
0:17:21You know I think of Kanye West as a runner.
0:17:22Fully clothed.
0:17:23You know?
0:17:24Kanye running.
0:17:25Yeah, I suppose that's true.
0:17:26You never know, we might get like John Siracusa bursting and demand an award.
0:17:30It could happen.
0:17:31It could be.
0:17:32It could happen.
0:17:33He doesn't have enough awards already, enough upgradees.
0:17:35Who knows?
0:17:36Does he?
0:17:37Oh yeah, they've won twice, right?
0:17:39ATP.
0:17:40Uh huh.
0:17:41Solvable differences win as well. It might have done.
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0:18:50so much to Encapsular for their support of this show and RelayFN.
0:18:55So we have a few things that we want to talk about today, a few stories, a few articles
0:19:01that I was thinking I wanted to label as all about the Mac. We're going back to the Mac
0:19:07today. That's right. Because there's been, thankfully, during the run-up to Christmas,
0:19:13a few stories that appeared, which me and Jason were talking of us like we were very
0:19:18thankful for these stories because it gave us something to talk about and what is potentially
0:19:22the hardest episode to have something to talk about in the year, which is the episode "The
0:19:27Day After Christmas." Not a lot of tech news breaks. Otherwise, this episode was going
0:19:32to be entirely about putting stickers on our technology and me recommending comic books
0:19:41to Myke.
0:19:42>> Those topics, by the way, because I know people will now be screaming for them, they
0:19:46will come at some point in the future. They are, we have, you know, as all good podcasters
0:19:52do, we have a bank of evergreen topics that we can pull out if nothing has happened. So
0:19:56they are two of those and that was what it was going to be today, but luckily there are
0:20:00few things. So we'll start off with an article from TechCrunch of a leaked internal memo from
0:20:08Tim Cook on an Apple message board it was described as. Like what is that?
0:20:13I don't even know. It's some sort of internal HR memo, feedback, something. It's probably
0:20:21heavily moderated by corporate human resources.
0:20:23I bet it's like 15 years old and it's got pinstriping everywhere and stuff.
0:20:28Probably.
0:20:29Tim Cook said the following, I'm going to read some quotes, in a reply to a question
0:20:35asking about whether Mac desktops are still a strategic line for Apple.
0:20:39So Tim said, "The desktop is very strategic for us.
0:20:42It's unique compared to the notebook."
0:20:45So you notice this is specifically, this person is I think targeting the Mac Pro in their
0:20:51question.
0:20:52"It's unique compared to the notebook because you can pack a lot more performance in a desktop.
0:20:56The largest screens, the most memory and storage, a greater variety of I/O and fastest performance.
0:21:04There are many different reasons why desktops are really important and in some cases critical
0:21:08to people.
0:21:09Some folks in the media have raised the question about whether we are committed to desktops.
0:21:13If there is any doubt about that with our teams, let me be very clear, we have great
0:21:17desktops in our roadmap, nobody should worry about that.
0:21:21So before we kind of dig into some of the wording here, because I think there is some
0:21:26interesting wording here.
0:21:27Of course.
0:21:28What's the driving force behind a comment like this from Cook, do you think?
0:21:32Is he trying to talk to this person who asked him that question?
0:21:37Or is he talking to the wider enthusiast audience, do you think?
0:21:41What's the motivation behind this?
0:21:43I think it's both.
0:21:45I think there are presumably there are people at Apple who feel as upset about the Mac not
0:21:54having a lot of attention put on it seemingly as there are outside of Apple. Presumably,
0:22:00you know, though, you know, we are a lot of people at Apple or at least some of the people
0:22:05at Apple are like us, right? They are. They are fans and they love and they use the Mac
0:22:09every day and it matters to them and they read what is written and they listen to podcasts
0:22:14and they want to know what's going on. But they're also Apple employees, so they get
0:22:17to ask Tim Cook, apparently, in their, uh, whatever this thing is.
0:22:22I'm also, like, really interested to know how this kind of thing occurs. Was it like
0:22:27a town hall? Like, was Tim accepting these messages? Or can you just, like, any day,
0:22:33any time, just say, "Hey, Tim! What do you think about this?"
0:22:36So, some suggestion box sort of thing. I don't know, whether they do a regular Q&A kind of
0:22:40thing.
0:22:41right? Because this article had a few questions on a few things. So I guess it was like a
0:22:46scheduled Q&A.
0:22:47Tim Cynova Yeah, people submit questions and then some
0:22:50of those are answered is my experience in corporate environments, right? You don't answer
0:22:54all of them. You answer the ones you want to answer and give the answer that you want
0:22:58to give and that's it, right? So we, this was chosen and you know, they know that this
0:23:03is going to leak. That's, they absolutely know that, right? There's no way that any
0:23:07statement from Tim Cook circulated to all Apple employees is going to stay confidential.
0:23:13So I think that's always the secondary consideration here is it allows a message, an unofficial
0:23:20message from Apple that's still official but unofficial to get out.
0:23:24And this is a good way to do that, right? Let's imagine that me and you are working
0:23:28at Apple PR at the moment. If I have the option here of like, you know, we kind of want to
0:23:35get this message out, how do we do this? We can either do this as a statement direct like
0:23:39on the PR team or somebody can tweet something or someone can give a statement to The Verge
0:23:45or it can be a leaked internal like memo. That kind of adds, the leaked internal memo
0:23:52kind of in my mind at least adds a weight of like this is definitely true because nobody
0:23:58was supposed to see this. That's right. Well there's no spin in that message because it's
0:24:02internal.
0:24:03>> Apple doesn't--what Apple didn't want to do is give an interview, it looks like based
0:24:11on this, give an interview to somebody talking about the importance of Mac desktops, right?
0:24:17They didn't want to do a, you know, exclusive CNET talks to Tim Cook about Mac desktops,
0:24:24right? Because they're going to want to talk about other stuff, they're going to want to
0:24:26ask questions, pesky questions that Apple executives don't want to answer. They don't
0:24:31to do that. This shields them from all of that because it's just this text is not even
0:24:39released. This text is sent to Apple employees or posted for them to view and then they walk
0:24:44away. And so it's a way to get direct quotes out that aren't leaks from sources but are
0:24:49direct quotes without it being something that is part of a back and forth. Even with guidelines,
0:24:57part of a back and forth with journalists, they're going to ask you follow-up questions
0:25:00and things like that. And, you know, this way doesn't require that. This way you do
0:25:05two paragraphs and you're gone.
0:25:06- Pretty great, right? It's a pretty great idea. Like, I think as a way to get this out,
0:25:10it's a smart way to get this message out.
0:25:12- As a journalist, I would say I'd rather they actually answer questions and not be
0:25:16allowed to be somewhat cryptic. And this we can generate and have already plenty of questions
0:25:23about what exactly he means here. But if you view it from Apple's perspective, you don't
0:25:28want that.
0:25:29No, I mean, it's a great way to do it purely from a, you know, being a tricky PR type thing,
0:25:38right? Like, not as in, is this the best way for the message to be distributed? But I think
0:25:42it's maybe the best way for them to try and get their intention across, which is to be
0:25:46like, we do care about this. However, what is, what is Tim saying here, do you think?
0:25:54Like, is this like desktop or desktops that he's talking about?
0:25:59One thing that's clear here is that how you view this, how you judge what he's saying
0:26:05here is going to be impacted by how you feel about where Apple is going, right?
0:26:10Because this is meant to be a reassurance, right?
0:26:13The headline is "Apple's Tim Cook assures employees that it is committed to the Mac,"
0:26:18right?
0:26:19That is the headline in TechCrunch that leaked this memo.
0:26:22Okay, right?
0:26:24And yet immediately after it, I saw like Marco Arment feels like Apple's probably not gonna
0:26:31ever release another Mac Pro and is not interested in this kind of market and all that. And Marco's
0:26:35take on this immediately was, "Well, look, you see what he's saying. He's talking about
0:26:40the iMac. He's not talking about the Mac Pro." And he's right. You can read it that way,
0:26:46right? And I think that if you're inclined to view this as a way for Apple to sort of
0:26:52of like poo-poo all of that complaining, but not really promise anything other than that
0:26:58there will be iMacs in the future, shocker, in an oblique way, then I think that's a valid
0:27:05way to read it. So I think you can look at this and say, "Hey, look, it's some not official
0:27:12official reassurance to Mac users that Apple cares about the desktop, but if you are convinced
0:27:18that they don't really care about pro level desktops, you can definitely parse this and
0:27:24say, "I'm not sure he's saying anything about that."
0:27:29My take on this is that he's talking about the iMac, but I'm fine with that. The iMac
0:27:33is as pro a machine as I ever could want or need, you know?
0:27:37Yeah, yeah. My feeling is that they've got new iMacs that are coming out soon, right?
0:27:42And he knows about them, and that's the next product up. So you're teasing the next product
0:27:47up by saying we got some great stuff, you know, aren't there great things. When they
0:27:50talk about the biggest screens here, like, why would you mention screens? Because the
0:27:56MacBook Pro will drive a 27-inch 5K display, or two in the 15-inch case, right? So what
0:28:05he's really thinking is sort of an all-in-one with a screen, I think, and that's the iMac.
0:28:10So that's the, you know, greater variety of IO is interesting. I'm not quite sure. You
0:28:19know, you could make some arguments that when he says a greater variety of IO, what does
0:28:23that mean if we've got MacBook Pros with Thunderbolt 3? Does that mean more ports? Does that mean
0:28:29expandability at which point we are talking about something that like there's no expandable
0:28:34desktop Macs at all now. So I'm not quite sure what that means or does he literally
0:28:37mean but there will be six and that's not variety necessarily will there be legacy ports
0:28:42on the iMac. I mean you could parse it a bunch of ways but it's hard to find and fastest
0:28:49performance great right but it's hard to look in here and say he's definitely talking about
0:28:54more than the iMac and I think that that's what he's thinking of here just like this
0:28:59happened like a year or two ago where he said something like this where it was like you
0:29:04You know, there's great stuff on the way and people will see that shortly.
0:29:07And it was a new model of something and it wasn't quite what we thought it was, but it
0:29:13was the next product up and so why not?
0:29:17You know, what do you think is going to happen?
0:29:19There's going to be a new iMac.
0:29:20I think that might have been the revision of the 5K and the introduction of the 4K?
0:29:24Maybe?
0:29:25Maybe?
0:29:26Maybe, but it was one of those like, you know, we're working on some exciting things and
0:29:30this is definitely important and you know, we've got some great stuff coming next year
0:29:33and you're gonna love it." And it's like, okay. It doesn't really say anything. But
0:29:39yeah, so it's interesting because it's reassuring on one level, which is we have great desktops
0:29:46on our roadmap, we are working on desktops, which I think the real question is, were people
0:29:52really worried about Mac desktops or were people worried about the Mac Pro and maybe
0:30:00the Mac Mini. Because if you were worried about the iMac, I think you got your clear
0:30:06picture here that Apple has a roadmap for the iMac and the iMac's not going anywhere.
0:30:11But I would argue, of course the iMac's not going anywhere. Was somebody really thinking
0:30:15that the iMac was going somewhere? Because the iMac's totally not going anywhere. So
0:30:19I think maybe this is a case where the question gets asked in a vague enough way, or gets
0:30:25it's edited by HR, I don't know how it works there, to be vague enough that he can answer
0:30:31about desktops in general without actually addressing desk, you know, certain desktops
0:30:35in particular.
0:30:36>> I wouldn't say that there was like definite need for worry or that even I was worried
0:30:43about the iMac, but you know, you could imagine a world in which we didn't see one for another
0:30:50year, right? Like it could have, I mean, could have happened, who knows, right?
0:30:53- Well, I think anything is possible now.
0:30:56- Yeah, anything's possible, right?
0:30:57- It was impossible to think that Mac Pro
0:30:59would be un-updated for three years, right?
0:31:01So, sure.
0:31:02- I think that there is at least something to be taken
0:31:05from the fact that they're saying
0:31:06that they have iMacs in the roadmap
0:31:09and assuming that there's not too many junctions
0:31:12between here and there.
0:31:14- I still believe there is a something
0:31:18that's not the iMac, that's a desktop that they are planning.
0:31:21I still believe that.
0:31:22And my number one bit of evidence for that is,
0:31:25I don't think the Mac Pro would still be for sale
0:31:28if they were never gonna make the Mac Pro again.
0:31:30I think the reason that it's sitting there,
0:31:32and we talked about this before,
0:31:33but I think the reason it's sitting there
0:31:34embarrassingly long is because they wanna keep it
0:31:36on the price list until they have a replacement for it.
0:31:39And so it sits.
0:31:40And there was, you know, we'll, yeah,
0:31:44we'll see what happens there.
0:31:46But that's my, the reason for my feeling about this.
0:31:49And the fact that Tim Cook is saying the right things here
0:31:53when he says screens and memory and storage and IO
0:31:57and fastest performance and we care,
0:31:59we know this is critical to people
0:32:00and it's important to people and we are committed
0:32:04and we have a roadmap and we're gonna work on this
0:32:06in the future, so don't worry.
0:32:08Like that is the message here.
0:32:10And so beyond that, I guess you just have to say,
0:32:15how much of that do you believe
0:32:16and how much of that do you think has been?
0:32:18And I think everybody's gonna have
0:32:21a different percentage there.
0:32:23And obviously somebody like Marco,
0:32:25who was pretty down on the prospects here,
0:32:27is gonna have a smaller percentage of reading into that
0:32:31than somebody who's a little more positive about that.
0:32:33I think anytime that Tim Cook says anything
0:32:36even semi-publicly about the Mac
0:32:39and about that aspects of the Mac's business
0:32:42are important to Apple and they have a future,
0:32:45I kinda wanna take that as a win.
0:32:47but it doesn't brush away saying we're committed
0:32:52and giving a thumbs up is not brushing away
0:32:55the detailed questions about how the product line
0:32:58has been handled and where it's going.
0:32:59And those remain, this doesn't really dispel them
0:33:02in any way.
0:33:03- And you know, there's a phrase used here,
0:33:06it's all talk and no trousers.
0:33:09- Wow.
0:33:11- I don't actually know what the full meaning of that is,
0:33:14but it's like you can keep saying like,
0:33:18we have great Macs coming,
0:33:19but until you actually see them, right?
0:33:22Like you can't see the level of commitment, right?
0:33:24Like I think that's kind of what you're saying
0:33:25to a point where it's just like,
0:33:27you can keep saying it, which is awesome.
0:33:28Like keep saying it, keep assuring us, great.
0:33:31But eventually there has to be something
0:33:34to back up those statements, right?
0:33:36Like that has to eventually come.
0:33:39And unfortunately over the last two years,
0:33:42Those eventuallys have been getting longer and longer apart.
0:33:45And so like, you know, at this point, it's like it is unknown how long it will be
0:33:50before we get another MacBook Pro even, right?
0:33:52It could be two years.
0:33:53Who knows? We'll wait and see.
0:33:56Now, talking about like what Macs are coming and Apple's commitment to the desktop,
0:34:03there is another side of this.
0:34:04There is a, you know, leaks from inside of the company that the type of person who
0:34:09would ask the question in the first place, the disgruntled employee. There are those
0:34:14people. And as you can imagine, someone has been talking to them and that person is Mark
0:34:18Germin. And there is a Mark Germin report that we're going to talk about a little bit
0:34:21later on in the episode today. It's a big report in Bloomberg, talking about kind of
0:34:27what the state of the Mac is. But before we do that, let's just take a little break from
0:34:32the heavy and just talk about something a little bit lighter, which is a really fun
0:34:36an awesome YouTube video that you put together about kind of the max place in the Steve Jobs
0:34:43idea of the Apple product line, the cars versus trucks argument.
0:34:47Okay.
0:34:48Can you sum up the cars versus trucks argument?
0:34:52The real one or the fake one?
0:34:53The one Jobs made.
0:34:55All right.
0:34:56So what Jobs said was, and this is at 2010 at the D conference, which is, that was Walt
0:35:03Mossberg and Kara Switchers conference when they worked at the Wall Street Journal, essentially.
0:35:09They now left and set up ReCode and now they do the code conference and there's still a
0:35:14WSJD conference, I think. But anyway, in 2010 it was the Walt and Kara show and Jobs was
0:35:21there and he went on, they asked him basically, "What do you think about like the iPad's future
0:35:29compared to computers. And Jobs went on this riff about how in the past all car,
0:35:37you know, all the vehicles were trucks and we were an agrarian nation and then
0:35:42over time people moved to cities and and suburbs and needed cars and they made
0:35:47cars. Now that's, historically that's basically not true, it's not true, but
0:35:52his point, his real point was that computers are all, have been all purpose
0:35:58tasks or taskers all all purpose like if you want to do this it used to be like
0:36:04get on the internet is a good example it used to be you had to have a computer
0:36:08like computers were a thing you bought not because you needed to do like
0:36:11high-powered computing but that was the gateway to be able to get on the
0:36:16internet to check your email to look at web pages and things like that and so
0:36:19everybody had a computer but now what he's saying is with tablets he was
0:36:25talking about but I think we have to throw smartphones in there obviously but
0:36:27with tablets, his thought was there's a whole class of people who will not need a computer
0:36:34because all they were doing with their computer is getting on the internet. And there are
0:36:39more appropriate devices that let you do all of those things without having to have a big
0:36:45old computer, a big old laptop or a desktop computer. And I think there's validity in
0:36:51that statement. My mom had a laptop for 15 years or something like that, and now she
0:36:57just is iPad only, iPad and iPhone, but she mostly is just using her iPad. And that's
0:37:04a, so I can see it. I can see his argument there. So that's what he was saying was it's
0:37:10going to be uncomfortable in this post-PC world when everybody's using devices that
0:37:15aren't PCs to do all of these general tasks that used to be in the computing bucket but
0:37:20now aren't. It's going to be uncomfortable for people to deal with that change, but that
0:37:25in the end the personal computer is a tool, it's a particular tool for a job and if you
0:37:31need to do that job you'll use it but it's no longer a general purpose device where you
0:37:36buy it because you want to be on the internet. Like his point, if I had to boil it down is
0:37:41it used to be that you bought an iMac like the iVoice for internet you bought an iMac
0:37:46because you wanted to do email and go online so you bought a big iMac and you plopped it
0:37:52down on a desk and you plugged it in and you plugged in your modem, you know, phone port
0:37:57to the modem plug and you went online. Yay! You re on the internet. And today, you would
0:38:02never do that. You know, you don t need if all you re doing is checking email and keeping
0:38:06up with pictures on Facebook, you don t need a computer to do that. And in fact, the computer
0:38:11is probably a, you know, depending on who you are, it might be the right tool for the
0:38:17job if you have particular needs, but it's, you know, a phone and a tablet are absolutely
0:38:24capable of doing all of the things that you need to do. And so that was his argument was
0:38:28that over time, PC, people who came up in the computer industry were going to be uncomfortable
0:38:32by the fact that this device that they loved, that is the center of everything, is going
0:38:39to become not the center of everything because it doesn't need to be anymore and it's just
0:38:43going to be more of a niche tool. It's a tool for very specific uses. When instead of it
0:38:50being everything needs a computer, it's like some jobs need a computer. And that's really
0:38:55different. So I think that's the heart of what Jobs was trying to say there.
0:38:58So you put this video together, which people should go and watch, it's on YouTube. Talking
0:39:03about your kind of theory on this now is that Jobs' original argument, which is the argument
0:39:09that many people still come back to today about why the Mac is important because the
0:39:13Mac is the truck. It seems that there is a change at least from Apple in like what the
0:39:18Mac is.
0:39:19Right. Yeah, yeah. I mean that was what prompted me to make the video. I was trying to think
0:39:23about it and I realized I need to go back to the Jobs video and then I watched the Jobs
0:39:28video and I thought, "Oh, this is like..." I started to try to take it apart and first
0:39:32I had to get over the fact that he starts with this kind of fantasy of agrarian truck
0:39:38nation that doesn't exist.
0:39:40I know you were really stuck on this idea for a while.
0:39:42- You saw a version of my, an early version of my script.
0:39:45I kind of want to do a whole video now
0:39:47that's just about like the history of cars and trucks
0:39:50and why Steve Jobs is totally wrong,
0:39:52but that's kind of not my area
0:39:53and I probably won't make that video.
0:39:55But so I kind of got over it,
0:39:56but I thought it was good going back to that
0:39:58'cause I certainly use that car and truck metaphor
0:40:00all the time, right?
0:40:01- Because it's so beautiful, right?
0:40:02Like it's such a beautiful metaphor.
0:40:04- And it's not, so I think it's not quite right historically
0:40:08but I like the idea as I just described it, right?
0:40:10The problem is, as I thought about it more and more,
0:40:13and as I was working on the video,
0:40:15that, and I think I've mentioned it on upgrade before,
0:40:19and I know I mentioned on clockwise at one point,
0:40:21is how do you square the view that computers are trucks
0:40:25with the fact that Apple makes decisions about the Mac
0:40:30that seem to be driving it away from professional use?
0:40:34Like if you just go straight with the metaphor
0:40:40of like, you know, tablets and smartphones, let's say, are cars and computers or trucks.
0:40:44Why, you know, shouldn't the Mac Pro and the MacBook Pro be the ultimate destinations and
0:40:49they should be super powerful devices because in the end, who's buying Macs anymore? It's
0:40:55pros. They're the truck drivers. They're the people hauling things. They need the tools,
0:41:01the professional tools, or the contractors, whatever you, however you want to take that
0:41:04metaphor, they need trucks, right? They're rendering video, they're editing audio, they're
0:41:09doing you know special effects they're doing biotech they're doing I mean you
0:41:14name all the things that they're and their developers right all of those
0:41:17things throw that throw them in there they all need trucks right but you look
0:41:21at the MacBook and you look at the MacBook Pro and you could even go back
0:41:25and say things like the the iMac when they redesign the iMac to be thinner
0:41:31it's like are these truck features are these truck features or are these car
0:41:36features because thinner and lighter make sense on mobile and that's Apple's
0:41:41playbook has been thinner and lighter because that those seem like car
0:41:44features they're like pros may want it to be thicker and heavier and have more
0:41:48power but regular people don't they need enough power to get by to do the things
0:41:53they want to do but that that's the end of it so so you look at Apple's design
0:42:00decisions with the Mac and you're like are they making do they really think the
0:42:04Mac as a truck? And that's when I came to my conclusion in the video. And the video
0:42:08is definitely me asking a lot of questions and not giving anybody the answer from the
0:42:13mountaintop. I'm like, "What does this all mean?" Because I really am still kind of wondering.
0:42:17But I am starting to wonder if Apple doesn't see the Mac as a truck at all. Or at least
0:42:25Apple may see—because Jobs was talking about the whole personal computing industry—Apple
0:42:29they look at the Mac and say what's the best target audience for the Mac and I feel like
0:42:35it's more like an SUV or a crossover. John Syracuse gave me a hard time for lumping crossovers
0:42:41in with SUVs. But you know, basically there's a whole class that's just as popular as a
0:42:47traditional car that was originally sort of styled or based on a truck body but sort of
0:42:54styled like a car. The idea is there's a whole new class of vehicle that's really for people
0:42:57who want to drive a car, but they want it to be fancier.
0:43:00They want it to be bigger.
0:43:01They want it to be more powerful.
0:43:02They want it to have more space, whatever it is.
0:43:04It's a fancy thing that's no longer a car,
0:43:07but it's not a truck.
0:43:08It's not a pickup truck.
0:43:10It doesn't have a truck bed.
0:43:11It's just a fancier, bigger, more well appointed vehicle.
0:43:15And then there's the truck, which I would say is like,
0:43:18you know, you can have a truck and not use the truck bed,
0:43:20but because you like to drive a truck,
0:43:23and that's a perfectly valid use case,
0:43:25or you need it to do your job, right?
0:43:27And I started to think, okay,
0:43:29we can go too far down the rabbit hole with these metaphors,
0:43:33which is in itself another metaphor.
0:43:34But what if the Mac is an SUV, essentially?
0:43:39What if Apple's target audience for the Mac
0:43:42is not professional users?
0:43:44It's people who wanna have kinda like car,
0:43:49or like trucky features, but still be a car.
0:43:53And if you think about it,
0:43:54there's probably to this day still a bigger audience for that
0:43:59than for the high-end pro user.
0:44:02- I agree.
0:44:03- Right?
0:44:04- People that just want the little bit more space
0:44:06when they need it and more power when it matters.
0:44:10- Right.
0:44:11- But are not developing software.
0:44:12Like the fact that Adina chose to go with the MacBook Pro
0:44:17over the MacBook Air when she made her purchase
0:44:19a couple of years ago because she wanted a retina screen,
0:44:22which was a nicer feature, and, you know, just a little bit more power if she's ever
0:44:28encoding a video or something.
0:44:31Yeah, it's, um, and it's, I think Jobs, some of this I think is Jobs believing that the
0:44:37tablet thing was going to take off more than it did, right? I mean, the fact is that the
0:44:41tablet market is not, is not growing exponentially and consuming the PC market like I think he
0:44:46probably thought it was.
0:44:47Or at least at that time doing the right PR job required for the launch of the iPad.
0:44:51Yeah, well, that's true. That's true. But I do think that's a factor here, because I
0:44:56think that if the iPad and other tablets had really consumed in the last six years, had
0:45:06consumed a huge part of that consumer PC market, even more—you know, PC market is shrinking,
0:45:13but it's not collapsing. If the tablet market had consumed the PC market for consumers,
0:45:21then the only place that would make sense
0:45:24for you to make computers anymore
0:45:25would be to make them trucks, right?
0:45:27But that hasn't happened.
0:45:28Like regular people buy computers, even now,
0:45:30even with the option to buy tablets
0:45:32and with their smartphones, people still buy computers.
0:45:35They don't buy them like they used to,
0:45:37but they still buy them.
0:45:38And so, I think if Apple were to choose
0:45:42to focus on the professional market,
0:45:44they would lose these other sales.
0:45:47You could make the argument that Apple doesn't need
0:45:48to do that, Apple could do both.
0:45:50And that's totally true.
0:45:52I do wonder, and that was in the video too,
0:45:55I do wonder sometimes if just because of the mindset
0:45:58required to make cars, which are the iPhone and the iPad,
0:46:03if it isn't easier and if,
0:46:07and actually if Apple is best at focusing on those same
0:46:12kind of values when they make Macs
0:46:15and therefore making thinner and lighter friendlier
0:46:20consumer friendly, not high end devices everywhere,
0:46:25it like fits into who they are.
0:46:30And the pro stuff on the Mac, just,
0:46:33they don't think about it, they don't understand it,
0:46:36they can't prioritize it.
0:46:38I don't know what the thought is there,
0:46:39'cause it's not like car makers can't make trucks too,
0:46:42and cars and SUVs and all of that.
0:46:43But Apple's a different kind of beast and it may be,
0:46:48But I did have that moment where, you know,
0:46:51the crystallizing moment for me was
0:46:54when they do the MacBook Pro and they limit the RAM on it,
0:46:58it is hard to look at that and say that is like
0:47:00totally a professional product, right?
0:47:02It is a professional-ish product,
0:47:05but they're turning, you know,
0:47:07they're turning their backs on,
0:47:09or at least they're not catering to
0:47:11a portion of their audience.
0:47:13And that's the, you know,
0:47:14that's the people who absolutely need something
0:47:17or think they absolutely need something that they can't get.
0:47:22So what do you think is the future here with this?
0:47:29Do you think that, having looked at this, do you think that it's going to continue to
0:47:34be this bifurcation of what these devices are capable of based upon market desire and
0:47:41consumer need?
0:47:43Is the iPad going to become the car more than it ever was?
0:47:48Is the Mac going to become less of a truck and there will just be no trucks anymore?
0:47:53Like what is going to happen here?
0:47:56Well, first off, one of the places where this metaphor is fundamentally broken, because
0:47:59Jobs is talking about the tablet in the original context of it, one of the places where this
0:48:04is fundamentally broken is the iPad's not the car.
0:48:06The smartphone is the car.
0:48:08The smartphone is the car.
0:48:09The smartphone is the thing that everybody has.
0:48:12iPad is also, I guess, a car or maybe it's like a minivan or something, I don't know
0:48:17whether it's, you know, but it's a general purpose device like that. Even the iPad Pro,
0:48:22right? It's verging on being able to do more, but it's not, you know, it's not a super high-end
0:48:28kind of product. And then you've got the Mac and the Mac's kind of all over the place.
0:48:31My gut feeling, based on what we've seen, and again, if they offer a Mac Pro that's
0:48:36spectacular in 2017, then we will have to recalibrate our feelings. But looking at the
0:48:42evidence of the MacBook being like totally focused on thinness and lightness and not
0:48:49on traditional kind of professionally kind of features. And then we look at the decisions
0:48:54that went into the MacBook Pro and where it is. I think, you know, the thing I take away
0:49:03from all the anger from certain markets, certain audiences, certain users of Apple's products
0:49:12about the MacBook Pro. What I take away from that is it looks to me like Apple has decided
0:49:19that certain markets aren't important enough for them to prioritize over other things they
0:49:28want to do with their products. And we've talked about that before too, right? Which
0:49:32is if your favorite maker of whatever decides that the flavor of chewing gum that you like
0:49:39isn't selling well enough and replaces it, you're gonna be mad. You're gonna be really
0:49:45mad. And you should be mad. They took away your favorite thing. But if it turns out that
0:49:50it was by far their worst selling flavor, and the new flavor that they've come up with
0:49:55is gonna do way better, it's hard to say that it wasn't the right decision for them to make.
0:49:59And you could say, "But you could still make that too."
0:50:01It's like, "Well, we could, but you know,
0:50:03there's the packaging and there's the complexity
0:50:05of our business that you don't see,
0:50:07and we really need to just swap it out."
0:50:09And I feel like that's what's going on here a little bit,
0:50:12which is sort of one of the questions in my video is,
0:50:16what if Apple decides kind of like,
0:50:18we're not gonna make trucks.
0:50:20We're not gonna make trucks.
0:50:21We're gonna make really nice cars
0:50:23that are still gonna be able to carry a lot.
0:50:24But if you absolutely have to have a truck bed
0:50:27to do your job, to just beat this metaphor even further into the ground, then we're not
0:50:33going to provide that to you, because that's not the computer we want to make, essentially.
0:50:37We don't want to provide that to you, because we need to make these kind of products that
0:50:40we think have broader appeal than that. And the question in my video is, okay, so you've
0:50:46been driving this Apple truck for years, and now you have to make a decision. And the decision
0:50:54is do you buy an Apple SUV because you don't really need the truck bed, you just like to
0:51:00have it? Or do you buy somebody else's truck? And that's the kind of like Microsoft question
0:51:08like –
0:51:09And learn how all their dials work for example.
0:51:11Well whether it's the Surface Studio which is going to be an incredibly niche product
0:51:14I think or just in general like it's entirely possible that Apple is going to say there
0:51:18are certain – and it has already said potentially – there are certain parts of the computer
0:51:22market that we are not going to serve. I kind of hope they don't do that because there's
0:51:27lots of, you know, things that happen to make the Mac less important when they do stuff
0:51:34like that. And some of it they may not even realize at the time. I would hate for them
0:51:38to turn their backs on markets like that, but they may be doing that.
0:51:44>> I don't want them to stop making the Mac. I don't want them to stop making the Macs
0:51:50that people want to use, but I don't want them dragging something along and taking up
0:51:57resources that could be used on making newer and cooler technology. And I don't mean, because
0:52:01people always think, "I'm using my biases here," I don't mean make a nicer iPad. If
0:52:08that's what it is, then great, but I'm well aware that the Mac and the iPad sells the
0:52:12same amount, but if it is something else, like the future of computing, which is neither
0:52:18of these things, then I want them to be focused on that.
0:52:23I know it's difficult because I still rely on a Mac.
0:52:28My iMac is still incredibly important to me and I consider my iMac a professional machine
0:52:31because it is like the top of the line one.
0:52:34It is beefy, very beefy.
0:52:39And I do professional work on it.
0:52:41I do what is considered the creative professional work on my Macintosh.
0:52:46I really don't like the idea of Apple has to continue making these things forever because
0:52:53I really need them.
0:52:55Well and the, I mean, again, I feel for the people who are upset about this, but like,
0:53:04how many people really do need more than 16 gigabytes of RAM?
0:53:07I don't think many people.
0:53:09I think many people might want it.
0:53:11I really don't see how many people need it.
0:53:13Well, yeah, I didn't say once.
0:53:14- As cute as right now, right?
0:53:16Like with the things that we currently do,
0:53:17like I'm sure that, you know,
0:53:19you'd listen to this in five years
0:53:21and laugh at them for saying that, right?
0:53:22Like that old thing,
0:53:23but like with the stuff that is in our current future,
0:53:26like that we can see in the stuff that we use right now,
0:53:28I don't know how much more,
0:53:29like realistically more RAM you need than 16 gigabytes.
0:53:33- Yeah, and again, somebody will say,
0:53:35but for my particular use case, it's like, okay,
0:53:37you boil it down to the people
0:53:38who absolutely have to have it.
0:53:40Boil it down to them.
0:53:41How big is that market?
0:53:42And if the difference between having more battery life
0:53:46or whatever in a, and we'll talk about
0:53:49the Mark Gurman report, which lends some more
0:53:52kind of understanding to what's going on
0:53:53with the batteries in the MacBook Pro.
0:53:54But if making these decisions that, you know,
0:53:5799% of the users will find appealing in the MacBook Pro,
0:54:01but that 1% will find a deal breaker,
0:54:03you make the, you say goodbye to the 1%, right?
0:54:08And you optimize for the 99%.
0:54:10It just sucks to be in the 1%
0:54:12because they've stopped making your gum.
0:54:14And you should be angry about it.
0:54:16But I don't know, I feel like the truck thing,
0:54:19the truck thing is fascinating because it goes,
0:54:23bringing it back around to apply it
0:54:25to professional use of computers is really interesting.
0:54:28'Cause that's when we have to ask that question of like,
0:54:31well, who are the professional users?
0:54:32What do they actually need?
0:54:34Is Apple serving them,
0:54:36but they're kind of like they have to adapt to Apple
0:54:39instead of Apple kind of coming to them,
0:54:41or is Apple completely turning their backs on them?
0:54:43Does Apple care about that market?
0:54:45What markets does Apple care about?
0:54:47And we don't have a lot of evidence,
0:54:48so we all end up sort of spinning
0:54:50and asking us these questions.
0:54:51And sometimes it drives people mad
0:54:53and they go back to videos of Steve Jobs from 2010.
0:54:56- I think it was very good that you made this video
0:54:58to make the argument because I really liked the argument.
0:55:00I liked the argument, right?
0:55:01That the MacBook Pro is an SUV now
0:55:03because it's not, they're not sold,
0:55:06or at least Apple probably sees it that way
0:55:08'cause they are not solving for the usual problems, right?
0:55:11Like for trucks, you make them bigger, right?
0:55:15Or give you more space inside of them.
0:55:18Right, and they are completely going in the exact opposite
0:55:21for the MacBook Pro.
0:55:23They are making, they are doing the same things you do
0:55:25for a car that you make it prettier.
0:55:28- More luxurious.
0:55:29- Yeah, prettier.
0:55:31You give it new fangled features.
0:55:33And you streamline it.
0:55:35And that's what they've done to the MacBook Pro.
0:55:38And they're probably gonna continue.
0:55:39So there probably isn't a truck lap,
0:55:42well, there isn't a truck laptop anymore,
0:55:44unless you wanna go to the used car lot and buy one.
0:55:47- Yeah, or another brand. - That's all there is.
0:55:49Or another brand.
0:55:50So does the truck desktop exist anymore?
0:55:54We'll find out in a year.
0:55:56- I think that's, yeah, that's about right.
0:55:58That's about right.
0:55:59'Cause the iMac, you know, again, the iMac of today,
0:56:03the 5K iMac, which is the 2015 model still,
0:56:06is the current one.
0:56:07you know, that's a pretty darn powerful system,
0:56:09like enough that a lot of people who only use Mac Pro
0:56:12switch to the iMac because it's so powerful,
0:56:14but it's not, you know, it doesn't have all the features
0:56:17that the Mac Pro has traditionally had, right?
0:56:20And so it's the same argument,
0:56:22like it's compromised in some ways,
0:56:25but it's pretty powerful.
0:56:27So is that good enough?
0:56:28And in 2017, I guess we'll see
0:56:31whether Apple has other parts of this story
0:56:35or if that's it.
0:56:37- Can I continue to just make one more silly car metaphor?
0:56:40- Sure, all right, my garage door is open, go ahead.
0:56:45- I feel like the computers that we have now,
0:56:47like these laptops, they're more like electric cars
0:56:49than regular cars, because you can't lift the hood
0:56:52on them anymore, right?
0:56:54Like, you can't tinker around in there and replace things.
0:56:58- You can't, yeah, and most cars,
0:57:00if you open up the hood now,
0:57:01you'll find that there's just a big block.
0:57:03- Yeah, there's nothing there.
0:57:04and you can't, they're very similar in that way too.
0:57:08- So Apple doesn't make the types of cars
0:57:10that you can still replace the transmission on yourself
0:57:13if you want to.
0:57:14And I think that is part of the truck thing, right?
0:57:17Like I think people have long thought of the idea
0:57:20of the truck Mac as the one where you can pop it open
0:57:23and put the RAM in yourself, right?
0:57:26Or you can pop it open and put in a new PCI express card.
0:57:30No, not anymore, right?
0:57:32like these things are just hermetically sealed.
0:57:34(laughs)
0:57:35- And that's what I talk about the philosophy of,
0:57:38this is Apple's philosophy and it's not just bleeding over
0:57:41from the iPhone and the iPad,
0:57:42but it's also sort of a thing that Apple has been pushing
0:57:44since the early days of Steve Jobs,
0:57:46which is we can make our computers better
0:57:48by turning away from,
0:57:50you could say this about everything they've done,
0:57:52we can make our stuff better by turning away from things
0:57:53that are accepted as norms
0:57:56because we don't think they're necessary.
0:57:58And they have lots, a whole list of that, right,
0:58:00including headphone jacks and particular ports that,
0:58:03oh, you gotta have that.
0:58:04And they're like, no, we don't need that anymore.
0:58:06But you know what?
0:58:07Individually replaceable parts inside of their devices
0:58:13is one of those same areas.
0:58:15And if you go on iFixit, you can see the tone
0:58:19that iFixit takes with so many of Apple's products.
0:58:22It's great that they do those tear downs,
0:58:23but behind it all, there is definitely this,
0:58:26oh, Apple is stupid because they're making this,
0:58:29They're attaching everything together
0:58:31and making it impossible to repair anything.
0:58:33It's like, yeah, it's true, they are.
0:58:35But they're not doing it to be jerks most of the time.
0:58:38Maybe soldering on the RAM is jerky,
0:58:39but most of the time they're not doing it to be jerks.
0:58:42They're doing it because it allows them
0:58:44to make a better product.
0:58:45Because what they define as better
0:58:47is that it's thinner or lighter or faster
0:58:49or something else that is not about popping the hood,
0:58:52taking apart your iPhone
0:58:54and taking that one particular item off of it
0:58:57and popping a new one on. And that's just how they've decided to do it. And that extends
0:59:04to the modern Mac too, where there are no Macs with card slots anymore.
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1:01:30of this show and Relay FM. Alright Mr. Snell.
1:01:34>> Yes sir.
1:01:35>> So this is I guess the main event of this discussion today.
1:01:39>> I don't know.
1:01:41>> Is the Bloomberg report.
1:01:42>> Yep.
1:01:43>> From our friend, Mr. Mark Gurman, the bringer of stories for upgrade.
1:01:49upgrade. We thank Marc again for his commitment to giving us great topics.
1:01:54Great things to talk about, sure.
1:01:56Now I'm going to do a lot of talking here, as I try and boil down and tease out some
1:02:01of the more interesting parts of this article. So, let's start with some quotes.
1:02:06Interviews of people familiar with Apple's inner workings reveal that the Mac is getting
1:02:10far less attention than it once did. They say that the Mac team has lost clout with
1:02:14the famed industrial design group led by Johnny Ive and the company's software team.
1:02:18There is a lack of clear direction from management. So this is like that the kind of that where this piece begins
1:02:24Gorman is basically saying that he's speaking to people who are telling him that the Mac is not considered as important enough or as important
1:02:32Anymore as it used to be inside of Apple now
1:02:35Don't think this is a hard thing for us to assume but it's interesting to hear about. However, I feel that this
1:02:43part
1:02:45and some other parts a little bit later on in this article
1:02:47Take some of this article for me. Now a long time ago. I asked you the question
1:02:54Why do people leak to the press?
1:02:57and one of the things that you said to me at that point kind of knowing what you know and
1:03:02Having worked with this stuff for as long as you have is sometimes it's disgruntled employees that have tried to make change inside of the company
1:03:09They can't do it anymore. So they're crying to the press about it
1:03:13This feels that way to me this whole yeah
1:03:16feels like
1:03:18Somebody inside of Apple who's super unhappy is a bending the ear of Mark Gurman or people who were at Apple
1:03:26In fact, you can look at some of these attributions and it's people familiar with Apple's inner workings
1:03:33Right that doesn't even say people at Apple. It says people familiar with Apple's inner workings
1:03:39I'm not quite sure what that means
1:03:41You know, you have to protect your sources here, but who's familiar with apples and workings?
1:03:45I mean, there are lots of people who are familiar with apples and workings, but might not be,
1:03:51you know, at Apple or were at Apple or are connected to Apple in some way. I don't dispute.
1:03:58I mean, to be clear, I believe that Mark Gurman is diligent with his sources and that these sources
1:04:06are legit, but yeah, this is one of those articles
1:04:10where I look at it and I think, as you should always do
1:04:14with any leaked story, which is who is the leaker here
1:04:17and why did they decide to leak this?
1:04:19And this story, I look at it and I say,
1:04:23these are people who want to complain
1:04:26about how the Mac is being treated at Apple
1:04:28and are unhappy with some of the processes
1:04:33that Apple is using in its product development.
1:04:38There are a couple of other parts to this that kind of speak to that argument, I think.
1:04:43There's one part where they're talking about the fact that when Apple reorganizes software
1:04:47and hardware teams, and I'm assuming that this was the reorganization that happened
1:04:50after Forstor, when they went into the big pillars, the divisions that we spoke about
1:04:55a few weeks ago of software and hardware, right? When this happened, or if there's been
1:04:59any since, they've actually disbanded the dedicated Mac OS software team and they have
1:05:04just one software team now that of course focus majorly on iOS. The majority of those
1:05:13people focus on iOS. And this kind of is an interesting thing to look at and I can see
1:05:17that like you can look at this and say from a "where does the company's money come from?"
1:05:26If it's all one budget, of course it goes to iOS, right?
1:05:29Like 95% of the people go to iOS.
1:05:32But if you're inside and you previously worked on Mac OS,
1:05:36or you are working on Mac OS, this is gonna upset you.
1:05:41Right? - Yep.
1:05:41- And we spoke about this, my feeling, look,
1:05:45I can't say that I know how to run
1:05:49the most valuable company in history.
1:05:52- No. - I can't say that.
1:05:54But having just looked and doing some armchair business stuff
1:05:58and reading what we've read,
1:05:59this one article a couple of weeks ago,
1:06:01that Fox article, which was really great,
1:06:04I can see a real benefit for Apple
1:06:06starting to silo some of these teams away
1:06:09and giving them their own budgets
1:06:11and letting them work in their own way and collaborate
1:06:14as opposed to just constantly taking from this pool
1:06:17of people who have to be put on different projects
1:06:22because it's always going to be the project that makes the most money, that gets the most
1:06:27attention, and that isn't always the best idea because I think it can stop some innovation
1:06:33occurring or just like exciting things or you know maybe it's best to have the people
1:06:39that really want to work on the Mac work on the Mac and not begrudgingly work on iOS when
1:06:43you're looking at the sake of the quality of the product.
1:06:46You know like you maybe want less people that are just annoyed and not working in the right
1:06:51I'm
1:07:10the stuff that we're seeing in regards to this
1:07:13kind of hints towards the fact that Apple
1:07:15is kind of shooting themselves in the foot in some areas
1:07:19by making everybody work under one line of command.
1:07:23- Yeah, I mean, I can take the counter argument there,
1:07:26which is to say that so much of the stuff
1:07:28that Apple does is shared,
1:07:29that it's counterproductive to have these separate groups
1:07:34when so much collaboration needs to happen
1:07:37and that if they're building a feature
1:07:39for all of the platforms that it might actually benefit
1:07:41the Mac to have the group that's working on that feature
1:07:45build it for all the platforms,
1:07:46instead of having an iOS group build something wizzy
1:07:48and then a Mac group be like, whoa, what do we do with that?
1:07:52But I mean, I could argue that,
1:07:54but I think I'm more inclined to agree with you
1:07:57that the downside is that it becomes a thing
1:08:00that people don't want to do, people, you know,
1:08:04it's an afterthought and that it's, yeah,
1:08:08that it ends up degrading the quality of the product.
1:08:12- The thing is, this isn't sexy,
1:08:13but you could have, as many big companies do
1:08:16that work in this way, like cross-platform working groups,
1:08:20where you'll bring in someone from this team,
1:08:22someone from this team, someone from this team,
1:08:24they are the team responsible for implementing
1:08:26this cross-platform feature, and then they manage that.
1:08:29And look, these things can add time.
1:08:32They can add time to a project
1:08:33because there's a lot of politics going on,
1:08:35but it's a way that you could have these people
1:08:37work together and collaborate by having people that are responsible for a
1:08:41certain area working with their counterparts closely. Like these things
1:08:44are possible to do but it's a company culture thing and that type of stuff
1:08:49super changes your company culture because you know I wouldn't be surprised
1:08:53if there is an element like historically going back in Apple of the idea of what
1:08:56happened when Steve Jobs tried to take the Mac team off and then they had the
1:08:59Lisa team right like that's what can happen is that teams can start fighting
1:09:04because there is like everything that is in here
1:09:08of these potentially disgruntled Mac OS focused employees
1:09:13complaining, like that sort of stuff
1:09:15can only happen tenfold, right?
1:09:16Because if you're like, oh, well they get this
1:09:18and this and this, but it could also end up
1:09:21being significantly better for the state of the product
1:09:23because they might get more dedicated love to them.
1:09:26But as I say, I can't sit here and say that I know
1:09:29how to run the biggest company in the world
1:09:31better than Tim Cook because I can tell you
1:09:33I do not know that.
1:09:34And I also assume he's considered this, right?
1:09:37- And our priorities as users of the Mac,
1:09:40especially as we've declared, you know,
1:09:42in detail, we've covered it in this show,
1:09:44our priorities and the priorities of other people
1:09:46who use the Mac may not match Apple's priorities too.
1:09:49Like we can be dissatisfied and say,
1:09:50why aren't they taking better care of the Mac?
1:09:52And their answer may be,
1:09:53we're taking care of the Mac exactly
1:09:55as much as we feel we need to.
1:09:57And that's not a very encouraging argument, but--
1:10:01- I can't argue with it.
1:10:03And you can definitely argue the other side that one of the things that Gherman says is
1:10:06that departures of key people working on Mac hardware and technical challenges have delayed
1:10:10the rollout of new computers, right?
1:10:11Well, one of the ways that you potentially lose good people is saying we've got a Mac
1:10:16group and you're going to design Mac laptops and there'll be a new one every two years
1:10:20or every year.
1:10:21Good luck.
1:10:22Enjoy that.
1:10:23And if you're an incredibly talented hardware engineer in Silicon Valley, that might feel
1:10:27like --
1:10:28I wanted to work on the iPhone.
1:10:29I know, right?
1:10:30And so two things happen then.
1:10:31you get a different job at a different company.
1:10:34Or another thing that I know has happened at Apple,
1:10:36'cause I hear people, I have heard for years now
1:10:38about people complaining about this inside Apple,
1:10:40which is people get pulled off temporarily or permanently.
1:10:45Like if you're an Apple employee working on the Mac
1:10:46and doing hardware and you get an opportunity at a job
1:10:49for the iPhone, you take it, I would assume,
1:10:52if it all matches up, all things being equal,
1:10:54it's a much more exciting product.
1:10:55And then who's left on the Mac suddenly?
1:10:57The Mac is the B team.
1:10:58- Yeah, the small secure if you're working on the iPhone.
1:11:01- And so that's all part of the issue here too,
1:11:05where if you've got kind of like a unified team
1:11:08and the Mac is one thing you make
1:11:09as well as an iPhone and an iPad,
1:11:11you could argue that everybody gets a little bit more.
1:11:13I mean, I could also argue as a former manager
1:11:16that you get people who are all kind of somewhat satisfied
1:11:20and somewhat dissatisfied
1:11:22instead of having satisfied people and dissatisfied people.
1:11:26But it's a hard problem to solve
1:11:28because the Mac is not the center of attention at Apple
1:11:33and it's not gonna be.
1:11:34So how do you structure it in a way
1:11:36that you make good Mac products in a company
1:11:39that is not, where it's not the number one priority?
1:11:43That's a tough one, it's a very tough one.
1:11:44- Whatever it is that Apple are doing,
1:11:46it seems to be upsetting people.
1:11:47That's apparently more than a dozen Mac engineers
1:11:49and managers have left for different teams
1:11:51or companies in the last 18 months.
1:11:53Which could save one of the two things.
1:11:55- Different teams though is interesting, right?
1:11:56- Yeah, it's one of the two things.
1:11:57either they're unhappy, they're bored,
1:12:01or they're thinking about where job security is, right?
1:12:03I think they're the three things that could be happening here.
1:12:06- Or Apple is doing what they have definitely done
1:12:09through the years, which is reprioritizing people.
1:12:11I cannot tell you how many times I've heard stories
1:12:13about people who got pulled off of the thing
1:12:15they were working on because there's this other
1:12:17important thing at Apple that you need to work on.
1:12:20We like pull in employees from other teams
1:12:22and have them do this.
1:12:23And you know, if you need something that's super important
1:12:26the iPhone and there's this person over here, you know, let's take them and do that. You
1:12:31could also, I do feel like the story about, which I don't know what the confirmation is,
1:12:37that when South Sagawian left Apple that the Mac automation group was disbanded and those
1:12:43people were, I think, reassigned is the assumption there. But if that's the case, that would
1:12:48be one of these examples of like, those were people who were focused on the Mac who have
1:12:52now gone somewhere else.
1:12:56Apparently Apple wanted to create new, longer lasting batteries for the new MacBook Pro
1:13:00but was unable to meet a deadline. They were trying to pack these batteries into the case
1:13:05akin to how they do that with the terraced batteries inside of the MacBook. So like to
1:13:09kind of fill every inch with battery by using battery like slices of batteries rather than
1:13:14filling the whole thing itself. These batteries failed the tests required running up to the
1:13:20release so this technology had to be pulled to meet that deadline. It is said that this
1:13:25late course correction that they had to take here took engineers away from the other Mac
1:13:29products indicating that this might be why so little was unveiled in October.
1:13:35Now this is interesting to me for a couple of things. One, okay, I can buy that, right,
1:13:38that they had to rush and scramble to put some other type of battery tech into this
1:13:42thing which required more engineers because they couldn't make it in time because they
1:13:46spent maybe wasted time developing this new battery technology which only failed the tests.
1:13:51But again, you know, people may want to strike me down for saying this. I don't know why
1:13:55they didn't wait. Like, if they thought they could make this work, I don't think that the
1:14:01holiday season is that important for the MacBook Pro line.
1:14:05Well, it's not just the—so, Germin says the important holiday shopping season, but
1:14:09let's also—he also says earlier it's been more than 500 days, right, since the last
1:14:14MacBook Pro update. So they were feeling time pressure to get something out and
1:14:19that they had already been too long in waiting before updating this product.
1:14:23Holidays aside, and I see what you're saying, which is, well, if you need to
1:14:27wait a few more months or whatever, why not do it? I think that's what happened.
1:14:31Essentially, when you're making any of these product decisions, there comes a
1:14:35point where you have to say, this feature is going to push us back, so we're just
1:14:40gonna put it off until the next revision and we're gonna move ahead without it
1:14:44because we need to ship something. Do they need to ship
1:14:49something new here? It's like well no they could have no MacBook Pros for
1:14:52another year and then ship something but I think that at some point somebody said
1:14:55look let's ship what we got and the next one we'll do the new battery in the next
1:15:01in the next one next year we'll do it then. That'll be our up you know that'll
1:15:04be a reason for people to buy a MacBook Pro in the fall of 2017 or the spring of
1:15:092018.
1:15:10German talks about how Apple executives now ask for multiple concepts of new hardware
1:15:16and they pick which is more shippable.
1:15:18Let me tell you, this is the detail that screams of unhappy employee who doesn't like the
1:15:24process being used internally.
1:15:26This one is the "I can't believe they make us build two of these.
1:15:29I worked on one and my buddies worked on one.
1:15:32I can't believe they made us make two of these and then had a bake-off," right?
1:15:35Which, you know, I can see the argument that that's dumb and that they shouldn't do that
1:15:39and I can see the argument why they want to have those competing designs and they haven't
1:15:43made up their mind. There are two ways to spin this, but it really feels like somebody
1:15:48who was unhappy that they were being tasked to be a part of this process.
1:15:54This whole thing was when my ears most pricked up.
1:15:56Yep.
1:15:57So apparently there was a light and heavy version of the MacBook. One was called the
1:16:00Stealth Fighter and one was called the Stealth Bomber. Awesome. Awesome. Codenames.
1:16:05I assume one had like more power to it, that's my assumption.
1:16:09It isn't gone into in the article what the differences were.
1:16:12My assumption is that the stealth fighter was more like a MacBook Air and used the MacBook
1:16:15Air processor and had a fan and then the stealth bomber.
1:16:19Fighter is what came out.
1:16:21Stealth fighter is the one we know of, yeah.
1:16:23That's my guess is that that's why it's using the lower power processors and has that super
1:16:28thin fanless design.
1:16:29Obviously the lighter model won out and they pushed the project forward and because they
1:16:33they were too because the teams work on two different prototypes.
1:16:36It took longer to actually finalize the MacBook.
1:16:38They missed their shipping date because, you know,
1:16:40they have people working on different things.
1:16:42I understand this just makes sense to me, right?
1:16:43Like they then had to move the people that were working on the stealth bomber
1:16:47into the stealth fighter team, and then they missed their deadline
1:16:50because maybe they were working like their original timescales.
1:16:52And now Apple have realized, OK, these timescales are different.
1:16:55Now, this just sounds like I completely agree with you.
1:16:58Someone who is unhappy with a new way of doing things like I've
1:17:02worked with these types of people.
1:17:04Like I don't think that this is an inherently bad way.
1:17:07I think it's a pretty good way.
1:17:09Like why not let people work on bunches of different things?
1:17:13- Well, so the argument is, and I've heard it before,
1:17:15the argument is if you know you're only gonna go with one,
1:17:18why are we building two?
1:17:19What you're doing, this is the argument,
1:17:22what you're doing as a manager is deciding
1:17:26that you are gonna push off a decision.
1:17:29And instead we're gonna waste our time,
1:17:31half of our time on this project is going to be wasted fundamentally because you're
1:17:35making us do two different things instead of making up your mind about what you want.
1:17:39That's the argument. The other way to view this is we don't know which one of these will
1:17:43work better. We're not sure that both of them will even work. So we need to go down this
1:17:48path a little bit until we get some more clarity about it. We can't just make a decision now.
1:17:53We need more information and that's the value in doing this. But again, I can see both arguments
1:17:57and I've had those. I mean I had my art director make nine different Mac World cover designs
1:18:02before we would pick a cover for an issue. I mean I get it.
1:18:07It depends on what you're valuing in the process because everybody's learning stuff about the
1:18:12product line in going through this process. Even the people whose version doesn't ship,
1:18:18they have found something or they have done something differently or there's a thing taken
1:18:22from that thing because that might be cool later. I can't imagine all of these people
1:18:26just creating work which is inherently useless. Like, that doesn't really seem like a way
1:18:32that these types of things would be done. I don't know. And I also wonder, like, seriously,
1:18:36how far down the process do you go?
1:18:38Yeah.
1:18:39And I don't think these were two teams either. I think this is one engineering group that
1:18:41was tasked with doing two things and they were both, they were working on different
1:18:45things. But bottom line, yeah, if one of them is your baby and they pick the other one,
1:18:48then that's not going to be great. And if you feel like it was a waste of everybody's
1:18:52time because you know we put all this work into these two and knowing one of
1:18:56them was gonna die but but also I would my gut feeling is that the person who
1:19:01was upset about this the most is somebody who was working on the one that
1:19:04didn't get picked.
1:19:05So let's just play a bit of a thought experiment here.
1:19:09Person who is working on the MacBook who is unhappy about the current direction
1:19:15of Apple do you think that maybe their one was the one that wasn't picked right
1:19:21that the person who is unhappy with Apple's current direction with the Mac
1:19:24maybe wanted the one with the big fan in it that was more like just an updated
1:19:28MacBook Air as opposed to the one that has one port and no fan and is really
1:19:33underpowered of the new keyboard. Yeah sure. You know I really see that as being
1:19:37like a kind of like a this wasn't what I wanted. Look so my thing is I believe all
1:19:41of these things I believe all of these things are true. I just think that
1:19:46there is a lens that is being put over them which is of anger and upset as
1:19:52opposed to just like here is a clear stating of the fact right like Apple is
1:19:56now Apple now has longer timelines because they are developing multiple
1:20:00concepts of new hardware is very different to their wearing out the teams
1:20:06because they're making make two things at once right both of those things are
1:20:11talking about the exact same thing but they're painted in very different lights
1:20:14you know because you can talk about the facts which is longer timelines or you
1:20:18can talk about the it's wearing us out we can't get our work done in time like
1:20:21they're different size of the same coin and you know that so it's a fact I
1:20:27believe it's factual but I think that this is really painted in a way which is
1:20:32and everything's terrible because of this here's something that I know you
1:20:36won't agree with because I don't agree with it if I don't agree with it there's
1:20:39no way that you will go man argues that more Mac use of switching because of
1:20:43these longer delays in product provisions will make the Apple ecosystem
1:20:48less sticky and suggests that this might lead to people abandoning the iPhone and
1:20:51iPad. I really cannot believe he believes this. Yeah, that's a
1:20:58that's a stupid statement. Because the inverse is definitely true, right? Like if people
1:21:04start switching to Android, Apple might sell less Macs. I don't, you know, like
1:21:09that just feels more true to me. Most iPhone users don't use Macs. No, of course they don't.
1:21:16But what I'm saying is like if more people start switching away from the iPhone, they
1:21:20may sell less Macs, right? That might be a thing. I don't know. Yes. Then if they start
1:21:24selling less Macs, they're not going to start selling less iPhones. It doesn't make any
1:21:27sense. The numbers don't even go near to each other. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying is
1:21:31most iPhone users already don't use Macs. The Mac will not have an appreciable impact
1:21:37on people using the iPhone and the iPad.
1:21:38It just won't, there's no way, there's no way.
1:21:42- If you're upset with Apple,
1:21:44the iPhone is still kind of as good as it's always been.
1:21:48Like if you wanna get a PC,
1:21:51there's no reason you have to leave the iPhone.
1:21:55- Exactly right.
1:21:56So that's, I mean, less sticky.
1:21:58Sure, in that the Windows support of stuff
1:22:04is not always as good as on the Mac for Apple's ecosystem,
1:22:08but it's all there and if you care, you can use it.
1:22:13So I think that's a baffling statement.
1:22:17And then the other statement, the paragraph before
1:22:20that I find equally baffling is,
1:22:23the company can't afford to alienate professional designers
1:22:26and other business customers.
1:22:28After all, they've helped fuel Apple's revival
1:22:31in the late 1990s.
1:22:33All right, again, I have great sympathy.
1:22:35I covered desktop publishing
1:22:37when Apple was going out of business.
1:22:39The professional users did help fuel Apple's revival,
1:22:43although that's even wrong.
1:22:45They kept Apple alive long enough for Steve Jobs to come in
1:22:48and turn Apple around and release the iMac,
1:22:51and then consumers fueled Apple's revival with the iMac.
1:22:56So even that statement is not really right,
1:22:58but it is right in spirit in the sense that the pros
1:23:01were the only thing that had let Apple have a heartbeat in the mid-90s, when I was writing
1:23:05about this stuff.
1:23:06Is there an argument though, like, because I keep running this one around in my brain,
1:23:10that Microsoft is going after the creative professional in the hopes that they might
1:23:14be able to do something similar, like the creative professional will keep them alive
1:23:18until they have something?
1:23:20Microsoft's going to be alive anyway because of all the services, but "can't afford" is
1:23:25the part, it's like, it makes us feel bad that they're alienating these core users who
1:23:29help keep them alive 20 years ago? Yes, absolutely. Can Apple afford to alienate a portion of
1:23:36the Mac user base? 100%. Yeah. Well, Apple could in fact afford to alienate 100% of the
1:23:42Mac user base if they, really, right? They could afford that. What would happen if Apple
1:23:47just shut down the Mac business? Apple would be fine. That's the truth. Apple would be
1:23:52fine. And again, I will underscore this, we really don't want this to happen. No, of course
1:23:56- But I think it's super important to understand
1:23:59that our own desires shouldn't be Apple's desires.
1:24:03Apple's desires need to be what makes them
1:24:06the best company that they can be
1:24:07to please the shareholders, right?
1:24:09- We are little fish swimming around a whale.
1:24:11The whale is gonna do what it wants.
1:24:13- What is the priority of Tim Cook, right?
1:24:15That's what we're looking at right now.
1:24:16And frankly, if you are a professional Mac user,
1:24:20your priorities and Tim Cook's priorities do not align.
1:24:23They do not align.
1:24:24- Correct.
1:24:25surprised if yours and Phil Schiller's, you know, I'm sure they align.
1:24:29Because I bet that Phil and Craig Federighi love the Mac.
1:24:32But their boss, I don't think cares about you.
1:24:37I'm sorry. I'm sorry to say.
1:24:40But but frankly, like, does that annoy me?
1:24:44It frustrates me, but I don't think I am like.
1:24:48It annoys me when Apple make decisions that seem weird, right, like in the moment.
1:24:53right like when they do strange things to their products.
1:24:58In the broad scheme of things, like as a fan of the company, I want them to do whatever
1:25:04it is that keeps them making products for longer.
1:25:07That's what I want.
1:25:09And making the best products that they can make.
1:25:11As a Mac user, I want to continue to have good, you know, a good product that I can
1:25:17do my job on because I'm not going to use a PC.
1:25:20So I would like them to make good Macs as long as they would like to do that.
1:25:24That would be just peachy, right?
1:25:28But yeah, this is the...
1:25:29Again, it's just weird assumptions to make in the article that they can't afford, Apple
1:25:34can't afford to alienate professional designers.
1:25:35Of course they can.
1:25:36Don't say that.
1:25:37Will the Apple ecosystem become less sticky if Mac users switch?
1:25:41No, it won't.
1:25:43you define the Apple ecosystem in a very particular and weird way where people, you know, where
1:25:50the Mac is the linchpin of it, which it isn't. So I don't know. This article is weird because
1:25:58what it feels like is that Mark has multiple sources of good information about what was
1:26:03going on inside of Apple in the last year or so, year or two, involving the Mac. So
1:26:08put all of that stuff in here and then there needed to be kind of a larger
1:26:13story connecting it all which is the unrest among Mac loyalists as the
1:26:18headline says which is also true there is unrest in those areas and then it
1:26:24sort of stitches it all together with some analysis and logic that doesn't
1:26:29really bear itself out. But there is the chaser right at the end. Final paragraph
1:26:36"Mac fans shouldn't hold their breath for radical new designs in 2017. Instead, the
1:26:41company is preparing modest updates, USB-C ports and new AMD graphics processors for
1:26:47the iMac, and minor bumps in processing power for the 12-inch MacBook and MacBook Pro."
1:26:52I believe this, and I am sad about this.
1:26:58I know that my feelings are complex when I talk about them, about Apple and its decisions
1:27:04about the Mac, but I've really hoped that like many people did that the reason that
1:27:10we haven't seen something is because we might have something more, right? Like, because
1:27:14I do want that to happen. I don't want all of this stuff to just wither away and die
1:27:18on the vine. But I can't look at that statement and be like, really? Like, really? Yeah. The
1:27:27whole year? Is that all? Like the MacBook Air, like, is that still around in 12 months?
1:27:33Like you keep in this?
1:27:35What about the Mac Mini?
1:27:38And the Mac Pro?
1:27:39Like are you seriously telling me that in 2017, we're still going to be sitting here
1:27:44in January of 2018 and saying the MacBook Pro is like four and a half years old and
1:27:51it's still on sale?
1:27:55Because if you're doing that, like if that's the choice you're deciding to make, kill it
1:27:58now.
1:27:59Just stop selling it now.
1:28:02if you want to do one in the future just just stop it just stop it so there there are a
1:28:08couple possibilities here one I mean could be completely right it could be that there
1:28:12is a new Mac project that is going to replace the Mac Pro that Mark Gurman doesn't know
1:28:16about because the people he's talking to don't know about it yep it could also be that rolled
1:28:21it because he doesn't mention the Mac Pro at all in this the other possibility is that
1:28:27is rolled into this and that what we'll get is some perfunctory new version of the
1:28:33Trashcan Mac Pro that has new processors in it.
1:28:35That doesn't feel good enough though, honestly. Because of how long it's sat there.
1:28:39I'm sorry you don't feel good.
1:28:40No, but like, it feels like if that's all that it's ever gonna be, then why has it been
1:28:45waiting for so long with nothing? That's what I find weird.
1:28:50One report is that, and this is in, this is also in Germin's story and we didn't even
1:28:55cover this. One report is that the challenge here is that this is being assembled in the
1:28:59US, the Mac Pro, and that it's become a huge problem because they've had, although I did
1:29:06have to laugh, it's like the Mac Pro meant, you know, they had to make their own tools
1:29:11and train people to run them in an assembly plant. This slowed production and constrained
1:29:14Apple's ability to make enough computers to meet demand. Do you think they can meet demand
1:29:17now? Three years later, are they meeting demand? Are they making enough Mac Pros every day
1:29:22in order to fill the channel for Mac Pros three years later.
1:29:25- It's just one guy and one girl in a shed somewhere in Texas.
1:29:29That's all it is now.
1:29:30- No, they just, they got a bunch of boxes.
1:29:31I mean, the scary theory here is that there's just
1:29:34a bunch of boxes of unsold Mac Pros in a warehouse somewhere
1:29:37and they're just trying to, you know,
1:29:38but they shouldn't be warehousing them, right?
1:29:40They should be making them on demand.
1:29:41But what does that look like?
1:29:42So anyway, that's the, that's part of German's story too,
1:29:45is the suggestion that the Mac Pro is meant to be a like,
1:29:47Apple likes the USA kind of thing.
1:29:50And now that Donald Trump is gonna be the president
1:29:51of the United States is like, oh, the last thing we can do
1:29:54is pull the manufacturing of that back to China.
1:29:57So what are we gonna do?
1:29:59And you know, that's interesting detail,
1:30:02although I'm not sure how current that is,
1:30:04or if that's just sort of old information
1:30:06that's been kind of recycled here.
1:30:08But I don't know, that's another question mark
1:30:12for the Mac Pro on top of everything else.
1:30:14- I both believe and disbelieve that final statement
1:30:17in equal proportions, because my belief in it is like,
1:30:20look at the last year.
1:30:22Does that seem like a possible outcome?
1:30:25Yes.
1:30:26But then look at this entire article.
1:30:28Does this seem like an impossible outcome?
1:30:31Like, does this seem like somebody
1:30:32who's maybe trying to upset someone?
1:30:34Does this seem like somebody who's maybe trying to like,
1:30:38tip over the apple cart a bit?
1:30:39Or does this seem like somebody
1:30:41who doesn't even work for the company anymore?
1:30:43- Yeah, I don't know. - Yes, all of those options
1:30:44seem true, so I don't know.
1:30:46However, it is fascinating.
1:30:48- Again, I don't dispute the details and neither do you.
1:30:50It's the question of like always asking like,
1:30:52why this information, why now?
1:30:55What's the reasoning for talking to a reporter about it?
1:30:59And then I have some questions about the overall,
1:31:01like how it's all glued together in terms of the premise
1:31:04that this is a big business problem for Apple,
1:31:07as opposed to more of a frustration
1:31:10for a part of the Apple's customer base.
1:31:12- I believe that there are many facts in this article.
1:31:14However, I believe that they are poisoned in some way.
1:31:18- Fair enough.
1:31:19I couldn't think of what the opposite to sugar coating would be.
1:31:23So you went with poisoned.
1:31:26Upset the poison apple cart.
1:31:28What are we doing to these apples here?
1:31:33Let's finish up this episode as we have finished up every single episode in 2016 with some
1:31:38#AskUpgrade.
1:31:41Pete asked, "Does iCloud sync AirPods pairing to the Apple TV's?"
1:31:45know how your AirPods will have that iCloud syncing from device to device from
1:31:50your Mac to your iPhone to your iPad does this work with the Apple TV? I don't
1:31:54think it does although I haven't checked the latest version of the Apple TV
1:31:58software which just came out you know where they put the TV app on there and
1:32:02all that. I wouldn't even know where you put headphones. Well in the settings there's a
1:32:05Bluetooth there's a Bluetooth connection thing and and I so I think not but it
1:32:11doesn't matter because you can still pair them using standard Bluetooth
1:32:13pairing. But I don't think it syncs. I imagine it will one day. If it doesn't already, it
1:32:17will soon. But I don't think it does right now. Last time I checked, it didn't do that.
1:32:22Sounds like they need a cross-team working group for the AirPod syncing functionality.
1:32:27Brent asked, "Which device do you consider to hold the true set of your data? The one
1:32:32that you use as a primary sync for conflicts, and the one where you go to check for the
1:32:36most up-to-date data?" Mine is my iPhone. My iPhone, whilst it is arguably in the day
1:32:43day, maybe my most of my working days, my least used device, you know, I use my iMac
1:32:47or my iPads more than my iPhone, I do still consider it as the hub, like the central source
1:32:54of information.
1:32:56I'm going to refute this entire premise. I don't consider any of my devices to hold
1:33:04the true set of my data. The truth is in the cloud.
1:33:08it's out there apparently. Brent asked, "In episode 19, Brent, much respect." This is
1:33:14the same Brent by the way. Yeah, alright. They're all good dogs, Brent.
1:33:20"In episode 19, you both said that you really only use Siri to set timers. Has that changed?"
1:33:28Yes, because I now don't use Siri to set timers. I don't use Siri for anything. I don't have
1:33:33any standard use case for Siri anymore. My current standard use case for Siri is when
1:33:39none of my other voice-activated assistants can give me an answer. I will then ask Siri
1:33:45on the hopes that it will give me. And a lot of the time, actually it does. Like, if Alexa
1:33:49cannot give me an answer to something, Siri tends to have the answer, like to a question.
1:33:54Like I wanted to know how many, I think it was like, it was a measurement. It was like
1:33:59a weird measurement of food like how many X's in Y and the Alexa had no idea but Siri
1:34:04knew it immediately. But now to set timers I either do them on my Apple Watch using the
1:34:09complication because it's super easy to do it in just a couple of taps especially with
1:34:12watchOS 3 or as I do most of the time I just ask Alexa to do it.
1:34:17Yeah I do I do still set timers using Siri mostly on my Apple Watch and but I also use
1:34:27It's funny, for Christmas Eve, we cooked on Christmas Eve,
1:34:30we went over to a friend's house on Christmas night
1:34:32for dinner, but we cooked on Christmas Eve.
1:34:34And at one point, I think we had the Amazon Echo timer
1:34:38going, the oven timer going, the microwave timer going,
1:34:42my watch timer going, we had many, many timers were set.
1:34:46Although I believe one of the nice things about the Echo
1:34:48is you can actually set multiple timers on it.
1:34:50- You can, however, the flaw of this is you cannot name them.
1:34:55- Yes, right.
1:34:56And so what you can do on Google Home, which is like the only reason that
1:34:59interesting is exciting to me, is like I could say, set the timer for the chicken,
1:35:03set the timer for the potatoes.
1:35:04Yeah, exactly.
1:35:05And then it'll, and then it'll go boop, boop, boop, boop.
1:35:07The chicken timer is over.
1:35:09Or even like, how long is left on my time is you have 10 minutes left on the chicken
1:35:13timer.
1:35:13You have nine minutes left in the potatoes timer.
1:35:15That's what I want, you know?
1:35:16It's important stuff.
1:35:17Yeah.
1:35:17We quite frequently set multiple timers on the Alexa and then just kind of have to
1:35:21reconcile it in our brain.
1:35:22Yeah.
1:35:24And Simon asked, do you guys use or like any of the accessibility settings on iOS for normal
1:35:29day to day use? Like do you trigger anything? On iOS I don't. I don't use any of the accessibility
1:35:33settings. Um, but on the Mac I use the increase contrast setting, which kind of makes all
1:35:42of the lines thicker and some of the stuff darker. And I use this purely for aesthetic
1:35:47purposes. There was one day Gray sent me a screenshot and everything looked too different
1:35:53on his Mac and I was like, "What is that?" And he said, "In accessibility, it is in
1:36:00display increased contrast." And I love it. I think it's awesome. I just love the way
1:36:05it makes everything look. And you don't get the same settings in iOS, the increased contrast
1:36:09settings do different things. But it just puts thicker outlines around everything and
1:36:13I think it looks really nice. That's it. That's the only accessibility setting I use.
1:36:17>> Interesting. The only accessibility setting I use, and even though they've got the color
1:36:21blind stuff in iOS 10 now.
1:36:23I was going to ask actually if you've ever tried the color because I was poking around
1:36:26to see like oh is there anything in here that I do have on and I noticed they had a lot
1:36:30of color settings.
1:36:31Yeah it's weird and it makes everything look weird and I don't use it.
1:36:37The only thing I use is on iOS I use triple tap for invert screen.
1:36:42For night mode.
1:36:43And that is because there are certain apps that I will be using in the night with the
1:36:49light off and it will be entirely white and I will triple tap to invert it so that it's
1:36:56not as bright. But that's it.
1:37:00That brings us to the end of this week's episode of Upgrade. You can find our show notes at
1:37:03relay.fm/upgrade/121. Thank you again to our sponsors, Smile and Encapsula, for helping
1:37:11support this week's episode. Most of all, thank you for listening, especially if you've
1:37:15listened to every episode of the year. We very much appreciate that. Both me and Jason
1:37:20and everyone at the Upgrading Office of Affairs would like to wish you the –
1:37:26Upgrading Embassy.
1:37:27The embassy. The happiest of New Year's. And we dearly hope that you tune in to next
1:37:34week's show where we will very excitedly, at least 50% of us, be giving our awards,
1:37:41our Upgrading Awards out.
1:37:44That's it. On behalf of us and the upgradians to the people and creators of the universe.
1:37:51OK, wow. I can't wait to hear that one.
1:37:53I know. If you want to find Jason online, he's @jsnell, J S N E double L on Twitter.
1:37:57I am @imike, I M Y K E. You can find Jason's work over at sixcolors.com
1:38:02and the incomparable dot com.
1:38:03And you can find a plethora of shows that both myself and Jason host at relay.fm.
1:38:09We have something for everyone there.
1:38:10I'm sure you'll find something that you like.
1:38:12Until next time, say goodbye to us now.
1:38:15Happy New Year, everybody.
1:38:17[ Music ]