113: It's An Honour and a Privilege to Defeat You


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 113. Today's show is brought to you by

00:00:14   Pingdom. My name is Myke Curley and I am joined across the table from Jason Snell.

00:00:19   Top of the morning to you, Jason Snell.

00:00:21   Hello mate.

00:00:22   That's no- that's the wrong-

00:00:23   That's the wrong one.

00:00:23   It's a podcast.

00:00:24   We're in Ireland at the All Conference. We're back together again.

00:00:29   Again. And we're recording... I see you an awful lot. This is like the fourth time I've seen you this year?

00:00:35   Something like that. You just can't quit me, Snell.

00:00:38   No.

00:00:39   We have some very important follow-up to start off this week's episode.

00:00:43   We have the draft results. Oh yes.

00:00:45   Now, it is safe to say, you destroyed me in the draft. Turns out...

00:00:51   I made a fatal flaw in my draft picks. I expected Apple would release more than one computer.

00:00:57   and I based many of my picks around that.

00:01:00   You took many of your picks around

00:01:02   what would happen to the MacBook

00:01:03   and that really edged you out ahead

00:01:06   in a very significant way.

00:01:08   - I didn't have a lot of confidence

00:01:13   in the iMacs and the Mac Pro and the MacBook

00:01:18   and it turned out that was good.

00:01:20   - Turns out that was definitely the right move

00:01:23   because you absolutely destroyed me.

00:01:25   I wanna run through them very quick

00:01:26   so we can just talk about what you got.

00:01:28   And there was just a couple of points

00:01:29   that I wanted to discuss with you.

00:01:31   So new MacBook Pro.

00:01:33   - Yep.

00:01:34   - MacBook Pro with touch ID sensor.

00:01:36   MacBook Pro has no traditional USB ports.

00:01:38   These are all--

00:01:39   - I thought I was gambling on that one, but I got it.

00:01:40   - You got it.

00:01:41   MacBook Pro has P3 color gamut.

00:01:44   - Another gamble.

00:01:45   - We're taking that.

00:01:46   They didn't say P3, but you confirmed it.

00:01:47   They did say wider.

00:01:48   They just didn't go into details.

00:01:50   I consider that a tick for you.

00:01:51   - Yes, I agree.

00:01:53   - All updated Macs have USB-C or Thunderbolt 3 ports.

00:01:56   That's a great one because there was only one Mac.

00:02:00   Developer API for Magic Toolbar/Touchscreen on MacBook Pro.

00:02:04   They did mention it on stage.

00:02:05   They did.

00:02:05   This is the one that I wanted to discuss with you.

00:02:08   Now, our independent adjudicator--

00:02:09   Mr. Steven Hackett.

00:02:10   --gave you a half point.

00:02:12   I gave a question mark for this.

00:02:14   New retina external display.

00:02:17   I didn't say from Apple, I suppose.

00:02:19   No.

00:02:21   And I don't know--

00:02:22   Who knew that they would partner with LG

00:02:24   to make a special display, basically.

00:02:26   - And once the resolution is good,

00:02:27   like it's not called a retina display, is it?

00:02:29   It's just called like a 5K display.

00:02:30   - It's a 5K, I believe the same panel as in the 5K on there.

00:02:35   - So I would, I mean I agree with the adjudicator,

00:02:37   half point works here, 'cause it's kind of,

00:02:39   it's like a technicality, like this is a display,

00:02:41   but it's not the one we were thinking it was gonna be.

00:02:43   - No, I think that's fair, I think that's fair.

00:02:45   - So the only point that I got was MacBook Pro

00:02:48   includes touchscreen function row.

00:02:50   That was my--

00:02:51   - Right, you got the touch bar.

00:02:53   - Got the touch bar.

00:02:54   So AirPods shipping, that was broken like two days before

00:02:58   Apple said it was delayed.

00:02:59   - Yes.

00:03:00   - Then this one's so close, I'm so upset about this.

00:03:02   The 13 inch MacBook, not MacBook Air.

00:03:05   It actually is a MacBook Pro.

00:03:06   - Yeah.

00:03:07   - Right, the one that you have right in front of you.

00:03:09   - Right in front of me right now, yes.

00:03:10   - Which Marco has dubbed, which I think is his greatest

00:03:13   naming, the MacBook Escape.

00:03:15   I think it's the best name that Marco has come up with.

00:03:18   - I'm not a fan.

00:03:19   - It's just funny to me, watching it, I was like,

00:03:22   Like it they even Apple caught it out. It's like this is the next generation of the MacBook Air, but now it's a MacBook Pro

00:03:27   Yeah, I was like if I was so close they're very much making the argument

00:03:31   We'll get into it later that it's sort of the follow-on to the 13 inch MacBook Air, which is a strong

00:03:35   Just never strong man several hundred dollars more. That's all refreshed

00:03:38   I'm axed it don't get refresh MacBook Mac Pro did not get a MacBook adorable speed bump did not get refresh MacBook Air without retina

00:03:45   Display did not get I tied with the upgrade Ian's. Yes, you did because they got colors on the MacBook Pro

00:03:51   which we just I think the chat room suggested that right at the end right at

00:03:55   the very end I was terrified when they started with Apple TV I really thought

00:04:00   that the Joe was gonna get his 4k Apple TV so did I but they ended it without

00:04:05   that I was relieved but yeah so I was absolutely decimated in the draft so

00:04:13   Jason congratulations your 2016 draft champion thank you Myke it's an honor

00:04:18   and a privilege to defeat you. But you tied with the Upgradients, so you got that going

00:04:23   for you.

00:04:24   I did.

00:04:25   Your optimism, your boundless optimism about a Mac line refresh at that event was your

00:04:30   undoing.

00:04:31   Yeah. I mean, just looking at it, it seems, looking at it now, like even back at it, it

00:04:38   still seems like I would have made those picks again, right? Like, it was like, oh, you would

00:04:41   expect, considering nothing had been updated all year, that something might be? But no.

00:04:48   We just got the MacBook Pro.

00:04:50   Yeah, I think there's some timing issues there, it sounds like, in terms of Intel chip availability.

00:04:55   Seems like there's lots of issues.

00:04:57   I'm sure, I would actually say, I'm sure that if Apple felt like it could ship updated iMacs in the fall, it would do it, because it's done in the last two years.

00:05:05   But I think that they, I think that they couldn't.

00:05:08   Yeah.

00:05:09   Before we talk about the Mac event in a bit more detail and the MacBook Pro, also last week, very busy week, were Apple's fiscal fourth quarter results.

00:05:21   Buzzfeed summed this up in a great tweet for me. It's like they basically distilled all of the earnings into one tweet.

00:05:29   "Apple's annual sales fell for the first time in 15 years. It's also making $100 million in profit every day."

00:05:34   I just love that.

00:05:35   That is the both things.

00:05:37   Yes, they had another, was it maybe the last quarter or the quarter before, another bad

00:05:42   record-breaking thing?

00:05:44   This time, what was it, last time was a profit decline.

00:05:47   Was it the first profit decline or the first time they hadn't excelled on the previous

00:05:52   quarter?

00:05:53   Now, this one is a sales fall for the first time, 15 years.

00:05:57   Can you explain that a little bit?

00:05:58   What does that actually mean?

00:05:59   In this case, it's annual sales.

00:06:02   So basically, they're looking at the revenue.

00:06:05   This was the last quarter of Apple's fiscal year.

00:06:07   So if you total up the sales, the revenue for the year and compare it to the previous

00:06:14   year, it's the first time that it has gone down from the previous year in 15 years.

00:06:19   And this is the story of fiscal 2016 for Apple.

00:06:22   Fiscal 2016 for Apple, quarter one was slightly up year over year, and then the next three

00:06:28   quarters were way down year over year because of the huge second, third, and fourth quarters

00:06:34   of fiscal 2015 owing to the success of the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus. And that was it. And

00:06:44   they forecast a year over year increase in Q1 for 2017, which is the holiday quarter.

00:06:51   They think that this holiday quarter will be better than the last holiday quarter for

00:06:54   them. So that's a return to growth for Apple.

00:06:57   It's how they do that. I mean, they know what they're doing. That will be good. That

00:07:00   will be a good way to start next year, right?

00:07:03   Right, and then their year-over-year comparisons become 2016 instead of 2015, and it gets a

00:07:08   lot easier. Those of us who have been arguing for a while now that if you take 15 as an

00:07:14   aberration and you map 14 to 16, what you really see is growth, because 16 is higher

00:07:21   than 14. It sort of goes 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. And then if you pretend 15 doesn't exist

00:07:29   and then draw the line to 16, the growth actually kind of tracks. It's that 15 was this aberration

00:07:35   to the positive. And after this next quarter, they're going to be comparing themselves

00:07:41   to 16 instead of 15 where they were lower. And now they'll be higher again. So they

00:07:47   may post year-over-year growth the whole year. We'll have to see. But they're forecasting

00:07:53   it for quarter one, which was a little surprising to me.

00:07:56   Were there any other highlights for you? I mean, the iPad is still going down, right?

00:08:01   You know, it's what we've talked about in the past. The iPad is… It may have hit

00:08:05   bottom now, but every time we say that, I'm then disappointed the next time. I would really

00:08:09   like to see some growth in the iPad. And it's decline is not great at this point year-over-year.

00:08:17   year and they're still selling a bunch but I would really like to see the iPad reach

00:08:24   a level where we're out of the cycle of everybody bought them at the beginning and then they

00:08:30   just stop buying them because they had them and they last for a long time. I would like

00:08:34   to see signs that it's now kind of a normal product that just kind of does even a relatively

00:08:40   slow growth over time and it continues to grow and it's still, you know, the results

00:08:46   haven't been that consistent.

00:08:47   That might be a better thing for 2017, because looking at the graphs, the decline is slowing

00:08:53   down through 2016 compared to where it started to fall down from the start of 2015.

00:09:00   The gaps are hundreds of thousands of units difference rather than millions of units difference.

00:09:05   So maybe 2017, I feel like we say this every time though, will be the year where we start

00:09:09   to see some stability in the iPad sales.

00:09:11   I agree with you and I think it goes back to saying that Apple will look a lot better

00:09:15   year over year in 2017 because of 2016, right? And that goes across a lot of different product

00:09:20   categories. And I said this maybe in my article or maybe on Twitter and I got some pushback

00:09:26   from somebody who is a big iPad fan suggesting, "No, no, no. It'll be fine. There's a long

00:09:30   buying cycle," all these things. And what I had to say to him was, "I agree with you.

00:09:35   These are the things that we've been saying all along. The problem is it's very hard to

00:09:40   keep saying that, "Oh no, now it's hit bottom," and not realize after a year or

00:09:45   two that it still hasn't. You can have that optimism and the feeling like it's about

00:09:51   to turn it around, but at this point I've said it too many times, I want to see it actually

00:09:56   turn around before I say it because how many quarters have we thought, "This is the one

00:10:02   where it's going to show that the iPad is stabilized," and it still hasn't. It's

00:10:06   still dropping.

00:10:07   So, again, the amount it's dropping is lessening, but it's still going down.

00:10:12   So…

00:10:13   That's what we have to scratch for at this point.

00:10:14   This has been true the last couple of quarters.

00:10:16   It's slowing down its fall, but it still hasn't stopped falling.

00:10:22   Every time, I think I wrote, every time you think that the iPad has hit bottom, you realize,

00:10:26   "Nope, it's still got a little bit further to fall."

00:10:28   Maybe it's settling down at the bottom now and will finally turn around, but I would

00:10:31   like to see the turnaround before I trumpet the turnaround of the iPad.

00:10:36   I can't, the hit bottom thing isn't working for me anymore because we haven't, still haven't.

00:10:42   - But like the one thing that I like to hang on to is it sells more to the Mac.

00:10:45   It's weird that we don't really put any focus on the Mac with this because it's stable,

00:10:49   and that's the reason with the iPad is it's not stable.

00:10:52   So it could dip below Mac levels, like it could.

00:10:54   - I've had revenue is below the Mac now,

00:10:57   and that's a little surprising.

00:10:59   And there's a question of where it ends up when it stabilizes,

00:11:03   But that's my question is, we thought, if you would ask me a year ago, I said, "Well,

00:11:08   it'll stabilize to be a little bit above what the Mac sells." And it's not now.

00:11:13   So is it not? Is the iPad market actually less than the Mac market? I don't know.

00:11:18   Well, to follow the meme through, the average selling price of the Mac must have gone up

00:11:21   this year because they didn't update them. Right? Like, the amount of money Apple is

00:11:26   making, their margins on the Mac throughout 2016 must have been fantastic because…

00:11:30   - Right, so the average selling price wouldn't have changed

00:11:33   because of that, but the profit per Mac would have changed.

00:11:36   - Yeah, that's what I'm looking for, yeah.

00:11:37   - I think that's probably true.

00:11:38   - I mean, that must have been the case.

00:11:40   You know, they continued to make all the same products

00:11:42   with all the same components for a year.

00:11:44   - Right, and the margins, yeah, but the sales were way down.

00:11:46   Boy, I did a chart of the Mac sales, and it's just,

00:11:51   you know, it was a, like so much of fiscal 2016 for Apple,

00:11:55   it was a really bad year for the Mac.

00:11:57   Not like the sales like vanished, but as we all know,

00:12:00   They didn't release any new Macs after first quarter basically, which was the 4K iMac along

00:12:08   with a refreshed 5K iMac.

00:12:12   And then they did the MacBook in the spring and that's about it.

00:12:14   So I don't know.

00:12:15   We'll see what happens next year.

00:12:18   Yeah.

00:12:19   Before we kick off with more MacBook stuff, I keep teasing this, but as of last night,

00:12:25   10.2 beta 1 was released to developers and it includes a huge emoji overhaul as well

00:12:32   as Unicode 9 introductions. So of course the guy on the scene, a good friend of the show

00:12:39   Mr Jeremy Burch has a great post over on Emojipedia where he goes into detail and explains and

00:12:45   shows off some of the stuff. So Apple was added, they're at parity with Microsoft and

00:12:49   Google now in that they have Unicode 9 support so that adds things like clown

00:12:55   faces, avocados, foxes, owls shrugging people and as well as like a bunch of

00:13:01   new professions like artists and rockstar and astronaut in both genders

00:13:06   and they've added a lot more gender parity emoji like a mrs. claws for

00:13:11   example so there's a lot more going on there but with that I think surprisingly

00:13:17   Apple took this as a time to redesign vast amounts of their emoji. So they've

00:13:24   they've kind of brought a lot of the emoji to look like the more recent ones

00:13:29   that have been added. So they've made things a bit more shiny, a bit more

00:13:32   lifelike, a bit more cartoony. And I've been kind of, I installed the beta this

00:13:37   morning and I've been looking around and some of them look really really good and

00:13:42   And it's a new, fresh look that I quite like a lot.

00:13:45   - Okay, I'll have to check that out.

00:13:47   I was impressed with your immediate download

00:13:51   of a beta operating system onto your iPhone

00:13:54   while traveling at a conference,

00:13:55   but emoji are that important to you.

00:13:57   - But like, there's things like, you know,

00:13:59   things that I've wanted for a while are in there now,

00:14:01   like there's a whiskey, there's bacon,

00:14:04   there is a green face to show that somebody is sick.

00:14:07   You know, all these, you know,

00:14:08   so I wanted to check out some of these

00:14:10   because a lot of the Unicode 9 is stuff

00:14:14   that I've been waiting for for a while.

00:14:15   Like, fingers crossed, it's in there as well.

00:14:17   So, yeah, that is, I mean--

00:14:20   - So when people send you emoji that look like a box--

00:14:23   - That's what it is.

00:14:24   - They're on the 10.2 beta.

00:14:27   - I mean, many people roll their eyes at this stuff.

00:14:30   - Indeed, they're doing it right now.

00:14:32   - But this is massively important for OS adoption now.

00:14:36   - Yes.

00:14:37   - Which surprises me that Apple didn't put these in 10.

00:14:40   It surprises me that it's taken them until 10.2.

00:14:43   So I'm wondering what else 10.2 might include

00:14:46   by the time it's released.

00:14:47   Because emoji are like a Trojan horse now.

00:14:52   Like if you want people to upgrade their operating system,

00:14:55   put the new emoji in there and people will do it.

00:14:58   So I'm intrigued to see like would 10.2 just be these emoji?

00:15:02   Or will there be some other features in there

00:15:04   that we haven't seen yet?

00:15:05   Also in 10.2 there's some new backgrounds,

00:15:07   like some new wallpapers.

00:15:08   and I think there's a new celebration effect in iMessages.

00:15:11   So that's all there is so far,

00:15:14   but it's just the beta one of 10.2.

00:15:17   All right, let's take a break

00:15:19   and then we'll talk about the Mac.

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00:17:14   to Pingdom for their continued support of this show and all of Relay FM. So you were

00:17:20   at the Mac event. Overall opinion of the event? This is now I believe the last event in Town

00:17:26   Hall.

00:17:27   No, not until they bulldoze Town Hall.

00:17:31   - Poor Town Hall.

00:17:32   - But yes, this seems to be probably the last media event.

00:17:35   It sounds like Apple will be ready

00:17:37   with their new facility next year

00:17:39   for any events that they do.

00:17:40   But never say never, you never know.

00:17:42   Anything is possible.

00:17:43   But yeah, this seemed to be the encore event at Town Hall.

00:17:47   So we all went to Infinite Loop and parked

00:17:51   and walked through number one,

00:17:53   and they usher you through into the lawn in the center of the circle and you walk along

00:18:01   a path over to number four which is where Town Hall is.

00:18:04   - Overall opinions of the event?

00:18:06   It seemed like it was weirdly paced, slow in points, fast in others.

00:18:09   - Yeah, I often will, in an Apple event, I'll think to myself, this is going fast or this

00:18:18   is going slow and I'll look at the clock and think, is there more to come?

00:18:22   How much more is there to come?

00:18:24   Is this the last thing?

00:18:25   And I'll be honest, I looked down at one point and thought they got to have something

00:18:29   else and they didn't.

00:18:31   I mean, they usually – Apple will usually fill two hours.

00:18:34   If you give them two hours, they will fill two hours and they usually give themselves

00:18:37   two hours.

00:18:38   And this was a 90-minute event.

00:18:40   That just wasn't enough.

00:18:42   They were just – they were done.

00:18:44   And you can see – so, all right, we could speculate.

00:18:49   Maybe there were other things that they wish that they could do and the chip availability

00:18:52   wasn't there.

00:18:54   Maybe they are ready to ship an updated iMac and they can't get the chip availability

00:19:01   from Intel.

00:19:02   We'll talk about this more in some of the reaction to a lot of the stuff that people

00:19:05   have had out there, but so much gets subscribed to Apple and Apple's demeanor toward a product

00:19:11   category or a particular product or a particular brand of user.

00:19:16   And I'm not saying it's all out of Apple's hands.

00:19:20   Apple has to own the decisions it makes about its products, the design decisions it makes.

00:19:25   But there are some things that Apple doesn't own.

00:19:29   Do we not think that there is a Thunderbolt 3 iMac using the latest generation Intel processors

00:19:38   designed in the lab at Apple?

00:19:40   Of course there is.

00:19:41   they ship it in volume so that they can fulfill all iMac orders over the holidays? I think

00:19:49   clearly not.

00:19:50   Because why wouldn't they want to do that?

00:19:53   Exactly.

00:19:54   They're already selling this computer.

00:19:56   I see so many people on the internet saying Apple doesn't care. It's like, do you,

00:20:03   like you said, do you really think if Apple was capable of shipping in volumes so that

00:20:08   they don't run out and make people angry that they can't buy an iMac. An updated iMac.

00:20:15   Of course they would rather do that, but that requires them to have the chips in volume.

00:20:20   And again, there may be decisions that they made, but that iMac, I'm sure they wanted

00:20:24   to update it like they updated it last year, and they didn't get a chance. I'm sure they'd

00:20:28   like to turn over their whole product line to Thunderbolt 3 right now, but it's not always

00:20:35   that. So that's part of it for me is maybe they intended there to be more here and they

00:20:40   just couldn't do it.

00:20:42   Let me ask you a question on that though, because I'm majorly agree with you. It's like

00:20:46   it's not a neglect thing. There are reasons because it's just bad business to not do this.

00:20:52   Right.

00:20:53   However, on the other side of it, they're selling really old computers for high prices.

00:20:55   Oh yes. Well, we'll get to the other ones. The iMac's not a really old computer though,

00:20:59   right? The iMacs were updated a year ago.

00:21:01   Yeah. I mean that one's kind of fair.

00:21:03   - Yeah, and that's why I say Apple's responsible

00:21:06   for the decisions it makes.

00:21:08   So like, if we wanna talk about the Mac Pro

00:21:10   and the Mac Mini, especially the Mac Pro,

00:21:13   and we would talk about the MacBook Pro

00:21:15   and why it took so long, I think it's Apple's decisions

00:21:20   coupled with Intel's product issues.

00:21:26   And so it's one of those things, I don't know,

00:21:31   You make, Myke is looking at flying,

00:21:33   - There's a wasp.

00:21:34   - There was a wasp outside the window.

00:21:36   Maybe we'll get visited by the ghost of Ool

00:21:38   that we got last year here too.

00:21:40   If you've ever had this in your life

00:21:43   where you make a decision and you realize

00:21:46   that you're sort of making that decision

00:21:48   based on a gamble like, well, I think we can do this

00:21:51   unless this other person doesn't come through,

00:21:53   it'll all be fine.

00:21:54   And then that person doesn't come through.

00:21:56   Now is it all their fault

00:21:57   if you could have made a different decision?

00:22:00   I think that's sort of where it is with Apple, is Apple thought it could get away

00:22:03   – I've said this before – Apple thought it could get away with skipping a generation

00:22:07   in some of the Intel processors and it would be fine because the next generation was coming

00:22:10   and that timing worked better for them and then the Intel processor timeframe slipped

00:22:15   and oops.

00:22:16   And made a bad gamble.

00:22:17   Yeah, well yeah, that's right.

00:22:19   So it's a combination of things.

00:22:21   But I think for the iMac it's not like that because for the iMac, is it a huge deal if

00:22:26   the iMac gets refreshed in the spring instead of the fall?

00:22:29   Not really. I'm sure they'd rather have done it in the fall. But I don't think it's Apple

00:22:34   saying we don't care about the iMac and so we're not updating it today.

00:22:38   Does Apple care about the Mac Pro?

00:22:41   I think Apple cares about the Mac Pro slightly more than they care about the Mac Mini. But

00:22:46   only slightly. I think it's an edge product.

00:22:50   The Mac Mini is way less important.

00:22:52   Those are the edge products though. Those are the edge products in terms of overall

00:22:57   Mac sales. Now they are very important and the Mac Pro is extremely important when it

00:23:02   comes to a certain kind of user and we know them, we love them, many of them listen to

00:23:07   this show. And I'd say that it's important to Apple too to have that power computer at

00:23:14   the high end of the line. But how many cycles do they spend on Mac Pro updates? And like

00:23:21   I said, I think they got caught in between product cycles, between processor cycles for

00:23:26   for Mintol and they thought they could skip a refresh and then get the next refresh and

00:23:34   everything got delayed and you know I can't, I mean they blew it, they blew it because

00:23:39   that Mac Pro should not be for sale now. It was not worth buying a year ago.

00:23:49   Geoff - And then you know because of things that have happened in my part of the world,

00:23:53   put the price up. It's £500 more expensive now for an older computer. I know the reason

00:24:00   they've done it blah blah blah blah blah.

00:24:01   Yeah, they talked about it a lot during the financials.

00:24:03   But it's still been done.

00:24:04   One of the things that people hit them on a lot of their sales drops and in some countries

00:24:09   they said, "We're also fighting a major currency problem." And their result is that they did

00:24:18   reprice things in a lot of markets.

00:24:20   Significant price increases in the UK.

00:24:23   And that's, you know, that's Apple, you know,

00:24:27   the pound isn't worth what it was worth.

00:24:31   - It's funny, like, what it's gone back to is interesting,

00:24:34   'cause it's gone back to the kind of prices

00:24:36   when I started buying Apple computers.

00:24:39   When like, the economy was very different,

00:24:40   but Apple just were different.

00:24:42   You know, and it was closer to like,

00:24:44   take the dollar number and change the sign to a pound.

00:24:47   That's what you paid.

00:24:49   And it's way closer to that again,

00:24:50   which is, it's interesting to see Apple go there,

00:24:52   So if you've been buying Apple computers in the UK for long enough, we've had our

00:24:56   glory days now.

00:24:58   We got cheaper computers for a while.

00:25:00   So now, for me, I'm going to buy computers in America again.

00:25:04   I'm not going to buy them in the UK.

00:25:06   This is what I used to do.

00:25:07   I used to buy stuff in the States and I'm just going to go back to doing that.

00:25:10   Or hop over to anywhere in Europe.

00:25:13   I saw somebody saying you could go to Ireland and buy an iPhone and come back again and

00:25:17   you'd still be like 80 pounds up.

00:25:20   This is just the reality that we're in again.

00:25:22   So let's talk about the MacBook Pro.

00:25:27   So you have with you the MacBook Pro

00:25:33   with the function row.

00:25:34   - Right, the non-touchbar version.

00:25:36   - But you've tried the touchbar version.

00:25:39   - Yes.

00:25:39   - And I wanna kinda get your opinion on this.

00:25:42   We spoke about this in Memphis in August,

00:25:44   about the idea of the types of things you can do with it,

00:25:46   and you were kind of pontificating what you'd like to see.

00:25:51   focusing on the touch bar, because it is the key thing that Apple announces, that it's

00:25:54   the jewel in the crown of the product. What do you think of it?

00:26:00   I think it's interesting that Apple has, and probably right, to approach it as an input

00:26:07   device. And I talked to people at Apple who kept hammering that message home, that this

00:26:14   This is an input device.

00:26:16   It's not a screen.

00:26:18   Don't think of it as a display.

00:26:20   It's an input device.

00:26:24   The way it's built, the coating on it that makes it kind of feel like a trackpad, the

00:26:30   angle, it's meant to be viewed at a 45-degree angle.

00:26:34   So the screen's not angled, but the glass and all of that is optimized.

00:26:42   optimal viewing angle for it is 45 degrees.

00:26:44   I love that.

00:26:45   Right?

00:26:46   It is so Apple.

00:26:47   But at the same time, right?

00:26:48   I mean, you're not going to be viewing it from above, unlike every other screen where

00:26:52   you're looking at it straight on.

00:26:54   This is something that you're viewing at an angle.

00:26:56   So they optimize for that view.

00:26:58   The screen itself is not angled.

00:27:01   But they know the eyeballs that are looking at that screen are coming from an angle.

00:27:05   So the last thing you want to do is have the optimal viewing angle be right up above.

00:27:10   So it's an input device.

00:27:11   like the first time I saw it, I really was taken aback by the fact that the virtual keys

00:27:16   looked very much like the real keys. Like, almost like to having a matte kind of finish

00:27:22   on it, the way that it looked. And I was impressed by that. You can't adjust the brightness

00:27:28   of the display. It automatically does the right thing. It uses the light sensor, I suspect.

00:27:32   It also uses the status of the backlighting and various other things to figure out how

00:27:38   to sort of match the keyboard. It really is supposed to blend in with the keyboard, not

00:27:44   the screen. Interesting. It goes back to that whole, I wrote a piece on Six Colors about

00:27:50   it this week, or last week, I don't know what week it is Myke, I flew for a very long

00:27:55   time. It's about perpendicular surfaces on the computer. Apple has defined the difference,

00:27:59   what's the difference between an iPad and a Mac? iPad is a single surface that you can

00:28:05   touch, you interact with it directly. A Mac is two perpendicular surfaces, a display surface

00:28:12   and an interaction surface.

00:28:13   - Top and bottom.

00:28:15   - Top and bottom. And so this is on the bottom. This is an input device. There are now three

00:28:23   input devices on those MacBook Pros. There's a trackpad, a keyboard, and a touch bar. And

00:28:29   they're all, that's where your hands are, that's the plane you're reaching out with

00:28:32   your hands and resting them on that surface and that's where all your controls are and

00:28:37   then your content is in the screen up above. And that separates them from Microsoft, which

00:28:45   believes that Microsoft doesn't have an iPad per se. Instead, it believes that there's

00:28:52   a commingling of PC and touch interface and that what you really want to do is be able

00:28:58   to touch the screen.

00:28:59   - Yeah, it's like they see the top and bottom,

00:29:02   but they put different functions on them.

00:29:04   Right, so like, for Microsoft, touch goes on the top,

00:29:07   and keys go on the bottom, right?

00:29:09   Where like for Apple, it's like no,

00:29:11   nothing touches on the top.

00:29:13   - Yeah.

00:29:13   - But the hands just stay on the bottom.

00:29:15   - Apple's philosophy is that nobody wants

00:29:18   to touch their laptop screen.

00:29:19   - Yep.

00:29:20   - And Microsoft doesn't believe that.

00:29:22   Now, you can argue that.

00:29:23   I mean, I think it's perfectly reasonable.

00:29:25   Sometimes I get in, people start to argue with me

00:29:29   on Twitter especially about how it's perfectly fine to touch a screen. I have to say, I'm

00:29:37   open on that question. I'm just trying to explain to you, Apple's philosophy will

00:29:44   say, it's almost like a dogma at this point, is zombie arms don't touch the screen. You

00:29:51   don't want to touch the screen. It's no good. That's what they believe. I think

00:29:57   a question, and they've been saying this for years now. I do wonder sometimes how often

00:30:01   do they revisit it. I hope they revisit it regularly and say they still believe it, and

00:30:06   that it hasn't just become like, "Five years ago, we decided touch screens were bad.

00:30:10   Never speak of it again."

00:30:11   I think that it isn't true anymore, because they sell keyboards for iPads. At the point

00:30:18   where Apple makes their own keyboard for an iPad, then they are saying zombie arms are

00:30:23   okay. It's like, "The iPad, it's okay. The Mac, no, no, that's crazy talk."

00:30:27   I think the challenge would be that if they do it in the Mac, they have to revise the

00:30:31   Mac interface to have touchable targets.

00:30:34   Well, I think that's what it is.

00:30:35   I don't think that the idea anymore is no one should reach out because we do that.

00:30:40   I think the idea is we don't want to redesign Mac OS for touch because at the point we do

00:30:45   that, we may as well just make it all iOS.

00:30:48   And I think that is, when we talk about philosophies of Apple and Microsoft, bottom line, I do

00:30:53   believe that they believe these things internally, but it is a belief that is driven by what

00:31:00   their assets are.

00:31:01   I just think it's changed.

00:31:02   Yeah, Microsoft failed with the concept of having a separate thing for touch and for

00:31:08   traditional computer. It failed. All of their Surface, their ARM version of Surface and

00:31:15   all of that, and the Metro thing, they're like, "Oh, right. It's all one thing.

00:31:19   It's all one device.

00:31:21   Apple has an incredibly successful touch-based operating system.

00:31:26   And so Apple's take on it really is like, "Look, if you want a big touchscreen, use

00:31:33   an iOS device.

00:31:34   Why would we make the Mac into iOS?

00:31:37   We already have iOS."

00:31:38   So the Mac is now the traditional computer interface for people who want it.

00:31:43   And if you want a touch interface, I mean, Apple is far more likely – put it this way

00:31:47   Apple is far more likely to continue progressing the iPad forward to allow it to do all the

00:31:54   things that prevent people from switching from the Mac to an iPad than it is progressing

00:31:59   the Mac to be more friendly with touch.

00:32:03   Why would they do that?

00:32:04   I mean, I wrote a piece a couple of years ago about this and I think it's still true,

00:32:07   which is you've got to view the Mac, and I don't mean this to be insulting, and I'm

00:32:12   a Mac user, I use the Mac all the time.

00:32:14   You've got to view the Mac as like, I was going to say legacy product, but it's like

00:32:18   classic.

00:32:19   It's like a classic interface and a classic metaphor, and it's for people who want to

00:32:26   use a computer.

00:32:28   Adding a whole bunch of touch interface and stuff like that, they're not going to do

00:32:33   it because it's not a computer anymore.

00:32:36   It's that's the act there is trying to upgrade the Mac into being a new 21st century

00:32:42   operating system with all these different interactions.

00:32:45   And Apple's already got that operating system.

00:32:47   So it's far more likely that Apple will build the iPad

00:32:50   and the iPhone to be more, to add all of these technical

00:32:55   and flexible things that people say,

00:32:56   but I can't use that, I have to have my Mac because,

00:33:00   than it is that they're gonna iPadify the Mac.

00:33:03   The Mac exists to be the Mac, to be familiar,

00:33:06   to be the thing that we know it to be with it.

00:33:08   And when they add something like Touch Bar,

00:33:10   They're like, "What can we do to enhance the Mac

00:33:15   "without breaking what makes it a Mac?"

00:33:18   - They're bringing, it's like,

00:33:20   the touch bar is the continued march

00:33:23   of the iOSification of the Mac.

00:33:26   Like it is the, what can we bring to it without breaking it?

00:33:29   - Without breaking the metaphor.

00:33:31   - And it was like, it started with Back to the Mac, right?

00:33:33   The Back to the Mac event was the first time

00:33:35   that they did this, and because a large amount

00:33:38   but the functions that they showed that the Touch Bar could do were things that the iOS

00:33:44   keyboard does. Like QuickType, like an emoji picker, like it is bringing that stuff, right?

00:33:49   Like there is a big meme right now, which I can kind of see, of like over time that

00:33:55   keyboard is going to become a not keyboard, right? Like a software keyboard or an all

00:34:00   screen keyboard or whatever, because it enables Apple to follow through with the original

00:34:06   vision that Steve presented in the iPhone introduction of why there isn't a physical

00:34:10   keyboard on the iPhone. Because then you are not restricted by the keyboard, you can do

00:34:15   anything, you can add anything. Which is what makes the, is it called the touch bar? The

00:34:20   touch bar is so interesting to me because it makes the keyboard a more interactive experience.

00:34:30   And with a lot of the things that I do on a Mac, the idea of having these functions

00:34:35   and shortcuts and bars and tools available to me where my hands are and where my eyes

00:34:41   are looking because of how I use a keyboard is incredibly exciting to me. So much so I

00:34:48   could never buy one of these. The Touch Bar is so interesting to me as a product. I cannot

00:34:55   buy the MacBook Pro because I don't work on it all the time. And when I'm not using it,

00:34:59   I would be very, very sad.

00:35:01   Because this is like, for a user like me,

00:35:05   this is a fantastic product,

00:35:07   because it is something that surfaces hard to find controls

00:35:12   and is also really, really useful to somebody

00:35:15   who looks at the keyboard a lot, like I do.

00:35:17   So I think that this product is very interesting.

00:35:20   So much so, like Federico said this,

00:35:22   I hope that they find a way to build this

00:35:24   into a iPad keyboard at some point, right?

00:35:27   'cause these functions are just very interesting.

00:35:31   Like, what apps did you play with

00:35:33   and what sort of functions did they have?

00:35:36   - Oh, let's see.

00:35:37   I mean, I used like Mail and TextEdit.

00:35:41   I used Final Cut a little bit briefly.

00:35:46   Photos, it was all over the map.

00:35:49   And then the demo showed, I do believe that this is

00:35:54   gonna be a year of real exploration for Apple

00:35:57   in terms of what the interface of a touch bar

00:36:01   really should do, because even on screen,

00:36:03   I found like the way Adobe approached the touch bar

00:36:06   in Photoshop versus the way that Apple approached it

00:36:10   or Microsoft Office or something like that

00:36:13   was very different, and I was thinking

00:36:17   that the Photoshop touch bar looked better

00:36:20   than the Final Cut touch bar.

00:36:25   - Why so?

00:36:26   I don't know, it felt like, it's hard to say.

00:36:31   I mean, it felt like they had a better sense

00:36:34   of why you would use that Surface

00:36:36   and how you would apply commands on that Surface.

00:36:40   But what really just struck me is, I mean,

00:36:42   I don't wanna, I shouldn't judge them.

00:36:44   They were different.

00:36:46   I liked the Photoshop one better,

00:36:47   but the bigger point is they seemed to take

00:36:50   different approaches with their touch bar interfaces.

00:36:53   And that leads me to believe that we're gonna spend

00:36:56   next year learning what a good touch bar interface is and what a bad touch bar interface is.

00:37:01   My only problem with that is that it is, like you said, going to be this subset. It's

00:37:06   going to be only the people who buy the high-end MacBook Pros who have this functionality and

00:37:11   nobody else is going to have it. And that will slow adoption and that will limit who

00:37:18   gets to kind of shape what this is like. But I think over the next year, I suspect that

00:37:24   feels to me like, you know, Apple had its first take on this. Like, "Oh, well, look,

00:37:28   you can use it to do this and this and this." And then you can already see with some of

00:37:31   these developers that they're pushing it a lot further and that might make Apple revisit

00:37:36   it.

00:37:37   Like the DJ guy was doing his whole thing. Like, he did the whole thing. Like, he mixed

00:37:40   the whole track. I don't know if he liked it or not. You know, that's another thing.

00:37:43   But he was doing a lot on that thing. And I'm really interested by the fact that they

00:37:49   made it a ten finger multi-touch because that's unnecessary. But what it does is it means

00:37:54   that people can really build some interesting things

00:37:56   into it.

00:37:57   You know, you can have like four fingers on this thing

00:37:59   doing all sorts of stuff and you're good.

00:38:02   How long is it gonna be before I get one on a keyboard?

00:38:06   Like an external Magic Keyboard?

00:38:07   Or even just an external touch bar, just the bar?

00:38:10   - I, right, I, I don't know.

00:38:12   I have, there's a lot of despair out there.

00:38:17   And people who say Apple doesn't care about the Mac Pro,

00:38:23   Apple doesn't care about the Mac, Apple doesn't care about people who use the desktop.

00:38:28   I don't know. I kind of don't believe it. I think that if Apple can make a Magic

00:38:33   Keyboard with a Touch Bar, they will. Or just a Touch Bar. Like you said, it feels to me

00:38:39   more likely that they would make a Magic Keyboard with a Touch Bar than just a bar and say,

00:38:46   "Good luck. Stick this on top of your Magic Keyboard." But I think if they can make

00:38:52   one they will. I think the question is going to be about battery life on that device most

00:38:58   of all. Because they'll have to embed, it'll be like an Apple Watch, right? I mean, they'll

00:39:02   have to embed the processor in there.

00:39:05   The T1?

00:39:06   T1 and a Touch ID processor and a Touch ID sensor and all of that. And then can they

00:39:11   do that wired or wireless? And if they can do it wireless, which Apple loves, then they

00:39:16   have to, you know, you have to charge it. How can it go a week? Does it have to be charged

00:39:21   every day. I think these are the questions about it. I think if they can do it, they

00:39:27   will do it because I think having that consistency across the platforms, letting everybody no

00:39:32   matter where they are have a touch bar even if they're at their desk, I think that's

00:39:40   the way that they should do it. I don't feel that to spare.

00:39:43   Scott

00:39:43   - I would take a wired one.

00:39:44   - I would love a wired one.

00:39:45   - If that's what it had to be.

00:39:46   - I don't have a problem, you know,

00:39:49   Apple and wireless keyboards.

00:39:51   - It's staying in one place, right?

00:39:52   It's staying in one place, it's not going anywhere.

00:39:54   It doesn't bother me.

00:39:55   You put a battery in it, it lasts for a couple of hours,

00:39:57   you charge it by lightning, but just leave it plugged in.

00:40:00   I really want this.

00:40:02   Just looking at the controls for Final Cut,

00:40:05   there's so many things that they were showing there

00:40:07   that I was like, I don't know how to do that.

00:40:10   I'm googling things constantly,

00:40:13   and the idea of creating this amazing toolbar,

00:40:15   which is right in front of my hands all the time,

00:40:17   which allows me like control, like gesture control,

00:40:19   which I'm currently doing with a track pad,

00:40:21   but I could move everything with a bar,

00:40:22   it really would work for me.

00:40:23   - I was thinking of you when they were showing,

00:40:26   and people were poo-pooing it again,

00:40:29   about the two-handed interface,

00:40:32   where you're using the track pad and the touch bar together,

00:40:37   and I thought, "I know multiple people,"

00:40:39   and you were the person who came to mind

00:40:41   who have two input devices when they're working

00:40:45   on their Macs.

00:40:46   - Three, when I edit, it's a keyboard,

00:40:50   way calm and trackpad.

00:40:51   - Yeah.

00:40:52   - And when I'm editing, I use both hands.

00:40:54   So something like the touchpad,

00:40:56   giving me those keyboard shortcuts on a programmable bar

00:40:59   would be amazing for me.

00:41:01   - So let's throw in too, if you're using a desktop computer,

00:41:06   like an iMac or a Mac Pro with an external monitor

00:41:10   or whatever, you're actually further away from your screen

00:41:15   than you are on a MacBook Pro.

00:41:18   So I think the touch bar is more relevant

00:41:22   because its place in the input device surface

00:41:27   of your workspace is further removed from the screen.

00:41:35   I would never touch my iMac screen.

00:41:39   It's far away.

00:41:40   And I don't even feel the thought of like,

00:41:42   "Oh, what if it were a touchscreen?"

00:41:44   It's like, "No, no, it's far away."

00:41:46   All of my stuff is on my keyboard tray.

00:41:49   And so if I had another input mechanism down there,

00:41:53   that would actually make more sense to me.

00:41:55   - So I'm really excited about the future

00:41:58   that means I could have this product,

00:42:00   like this part of the product in my arsenal.

00:42:03   I think that it is a really exciting move for keyboard entry.

00:42:10   This is a dynamic, a live thing for 2016.

00:42:15   I'm really excited about it.

00:42:18   The MacBook Pro, that machine looks like a great machine, but it's just not a machine

00:42:25   for me anymore because of how I work.

00:42:28   If I wasn't so iOS focused now, I would buy one of those as my portable machine.

00:42:37   Not just my travel machine, but like the machine where I use all over the house and do all

00:42:41   the work that I did.

00:42:42   Like the MacBook Pro that I brought with me, the MacBook Pro I have with me right now,

00:42:44   that's where its function used to be, but it got replaced with the iPad.

00:42:48   Because it looks like everything I kind of want.

00:42:51   You have the one with me.

00:42:52   These are the same dimensions.

00:42:54   The MacBook Pro that you have with the actual physical keys is the same product dimensions

00:42:59   as the 13 inch MacBook Pro with the touch bar.

00:43:02   So this thing is lighter, thinner, which is key, looks really nice.

00:43:10   This is a great looking machine.

00:43:12   It looks like the MacBook very much and just a kind of bigger version of the MacBook.

00:43:17   But one of the things that struggles for me is the idea of using this as a desktop machine

00:43:23   is weird because you'd want to use it with the keyboard open and visible, like the thing

00:43:28   open so you can use the touch bar, but then you connect it to these big LG displays. And

00:43:33   that's just like a weird mix because ideally you want to use an external keyboard at that

00:43:37   point.

00:43:38   - Yeah, and they're showing it open and in front of you.

00:43:40   - And it doesn't really work.

00:43:41   - And I agree with you. The problem with this is it's a kind of interaction you want to

00:43:46   have, but the only way you can have it is with a MacBook Pro open in front of you.

00:43:50   I know why the touch bar is on this machine first.

00:43:54   It makes sense.

00:43:55   Like if you, like in an ideal world,

00:43:58   that should have come on an external keyboard first

00:44:01   and then it's also available on the laptop

00:44:03   when you take it with you.

00:44:04   But like this is a thing for sitting down

00:44:07   on the desk working like ideally.

00:44:09   And that's why Apple show like in all the images,

00:44:11   like here is the touch bar as part of the MacBook

00:44:14   as part of this desk.

00:44:15   But that's not the way, nobody works like that

00:44:17   if you have external monitors.

00:44:18   - I don't think so.

00:44:19   - Well not a lot of people.

00:44:20   - Not a lot of people.

00:44:20   - Even the people that work with their laptop open,

00:44:22   they still use an external keyboard

00:44:24   which connects with that whole setup.

00:44:26   - Yeah.

00:44:26   - But I understand why they're showing it that way

00:44:28   because if you own that computer--

00:44:29   - How else can you show it?

00:44:31   - You wanna use the touch bar all the time.

00:44:32   - Right.

00:44:33   - But I don't know if it works that way.

00:44:34   But let's talk about the MacBook Pro.

00:44:36   - Okay.

00:44:37   - So you have one.

00:44:38   - Right here.

00:44:39   - What do you think of this computer?

00:44:41   - Well it is one ounce heavier than the 13 inch MacBook Air.

00:44:45   As an 11 inch MacBook Air user, it feels heavy to me.

00:44:48   but it is only slightly heavier than the 13-inch Air.

00:44:53   It is less volume, as they said,

00:44:55   and that's because the footprint is a lot less.

00:44:57   - It's really nice size-wise.

00:45:00   - Yeah, the bezel is a lot smaller around,

00:45:03   and as a result, it's a smaller computer than the Air,

00:45:06   and it feels denser.

00:45:10   And it looks, like I said, it looks like the MacBook.

00:45:12   There's no-- - You have it in the gray,

00:45:13   and it's really good looking, 'cause it's not too dark.

00:45:16   it still looks like a Mac, it still looks silvery,

00:45:19   but it's darker, and I really like the color.

00:45:22   I think it's a nice color.

00:45:23   It's one of the many variations of space gray color

00:45:26   that Apple have made.

00:45:27   - Space is variable color.

00:45:30   - Key question, I can't believe I haven't asked you this yet.

00:45:32   This is what everybody wants to know.

00:45:34   - Key question.

00:45:34   - The key question.

00:45:36   So the keyboard is not the keyboard that you're,

00:45:39   it's not an evolution of the MacBook Pro keyboard,

00:45:42   it is an evolution of the MacBook Adorable Keyboard.

00:45:45   it is the second generation of that.

00:45:47   - Yes.

00:45:48   - It is not the magic keyboard.

00:45:49   - It is not.

00:45:50   - It is the MacBook keyboard.

00:45:53   - Bad news everybody.

00:45:55   - You hated the MacBook keyboard.

00:45:57   How do you feel about the MacBook Pro keyboard?

00:45:59   - Similarly.

00:46:00   - Oh no.

00:46:01   - Yes.

00:46:02   - So Apple spent a lot of time saying

00:46:04   that it was new and improved.

00:46:06   - Well, you know what?

00:46:07   I don't have a MacBook with me.

00:46:09   - I'm touching it for the,

00:46:11   I haven't actually pressed the keys.

00:46:15   I don't like that keyboard very much. The keyboard that I'm using on my Logitech Create

00:46:22   for my iPad feels nicer than that. Now, I personally could use that keyboard and would

00:46:28   be fine with it.

00:46:29   Oh, and I can, I mean, I think what I said when I reviewed the MacBook is, I would say

00:46:33   again, I've had this for the last few days, I can type on it. Like, I can type on it at

00:46:39   full speed. I don't really like it when every time I start typing on it, I'm like,

00:46:44   - Yeah, it's this one again.

00:46:45   - Like I can write some emails out on that, and it's fine,

00:46:48   but it doesn't feel good.

00:46:49   - Yeah, so what I would say is,

00:46:51   if you're a user of the 12-inch MacBook and you try this,

00:46:54   you may say, "Oh, it's different."

00:46:57   And I've seen some of that.

00:46:58   And we saw, like I saw Stephen Hackett

00:47:01   made some comments about that,

00:47:04   that it's better.

00:47:05   And what Apple said was,

00:47:07   "It feels like there's more movement," I think they said.

00:47:10   It was something where they, I was waiting, right?

00:47:13   I was hanging on every word that Phil Schiller said about,

00:47:16   tell me what this is,

00:47:17   'cause you just said it has the butterfly mechanism,

00:47:19   and it's like, oh no, that means it's a MacBook keyboard.

00:47:22   Then he said, well, but we changed the dome switches

00:47:24   underneath, the stainless steel dome switches,

00:47:26   to be more responsive, and it has a better feel,

00:47:29   and you feel more movement or something like that.

00:47:32   He made lots of things, and what that sounded to me

00:47:35   was like, oh, so it doesn't actually have any more travel

00:47:39   than the MacBook keyboard, but there's something about it

00:47:43   that there's more of an effect

00:47:45   when you press down on the key.

00:47:46   So it's almost like a haptic.

00:47:49   They trick you into feeling,

00:47:52   'cause that's how I read it

00:47:53   when they said it feels more responsive.

00:47:55   - MacBook Pros are smokey mirrors.

00:47:57   It's all smokey mirrors now.

00:47:58   The track pad doesn't do anything.

00:48:00   The keyboard feels like it's popping up more than it is.

00:48:02   - So in my briefing, I asked point blank, I said,

00:48:06   is it the same key travel as the MacBook?

00:48:08   And they said, "Yeah, it is.

00:48:10   "It's the same key travel as the MacBook."

00:48:11   So don't let anybody tell you

00:48:14   that the keys move up and down more on this.

00:48:17   - It's just more of a springy feeling.

00:48:19   - Yeah, because I don't have a MacBook at home,

00:48:23   I couldn't do a one-to-one comparison.

00:48:26   I have no doubt that Apple is not making it up,

00:48:29   that it is more responsive than the MacBook.

00:48:32   But what I would say is this.

00:48:34   If you're somebody who rejected the MacBook keyboard,

00:48:39   I don't think you're going to turn around on this keyboard.

00:48:45   I think if you, your feelings about the MacBook keyboard

00:48:48   will be the same about this keyboard.

00:48:50   If you like it, then, or don't care,

00:48:54   then you'll like it and not care.

00:48:56   I can't envision more than like a very small,

00:48:59   you know, what, 1%, 5% of people changing their opinion

00:49:02   because of the slight variation between this

00:49:04   the other one. This is fundamentally the same concept. And if you are somebody who really

00:49:09   likes the MacBook Pro and MacBook Air keyboards and doesn't like the direction Apple took

00:49:13   with the MacBook keyboard, you're going to have to ask yourself how much you care about

00:49:18   getting a new MacBook Pro because you're going to have this keyboard.

00:49:20   This is the future of all Apple keyboards.

00:49:22   I think that's the case, yeah. I'm wondering now why the Magic Keyboard even existed.

00:49:27   That will change. The next Magic Keyboard will be like that. That's my… I would

00:49:31   because this is how Apple have done things over the past, right?

00:49:34   Like, the laptop keyboards inform all keyboards that Apple make.

00:49:38   - Yes.

00:49:39   - And so this is clearly what they're doing now

00:49:42   because it allows them to put more stuff in the case.

00:49:44   That's what it makes it--

00:49:45   It allows the whole thing to be thinner

00:49:48   and they can still keep battery and they can still put their stuff in.

00:49:50   So they take up their space with the keyboard.

00:49:52   So my thinking--

00:49:54   They find a way to put the touch bar on a keyboard,

00:49:58   they need as much battery in that keyboard as possible.

00:50:00   The way you do that is by putting the really, really shallow keys in there.

00:50:03   - Yeah. - Like, that is the future.

00:50:05   Sorry, Casey List, you're going to lose your amazing keyboard.

00:50:07   - Well, and I got to tell you, if I have to choose between good keys or the touch bar,

00:50:13   I'm never going to choose the touch bar. - I know.

00:50:15   - Ever. - But I will choose the touch bar.

00:50:17   - I know you will. - And this is the thing.

00:50:19   - Traitor. - What do you do?

00:50:21   You write for a living. - I do.

00:50:22   - What do I do? I manipulate things for a living.

00:50:24   - Yeah. - Right?

00:50:25   Not people. - Things.

00:50:27   - But like, UI, right? That's what I do.

00:50:29   I move UI around. Well, I really want to see logic, which I use a lot. I want to see what

00:50:35   the touch bar interface is, and I'm very excited about that. But yeah, if I end up having to

00:50:40   accept. Now, it is possible. I'll just be devil's advocate here a little bit. It is

00:50:44   possible that what Apple's really decided is that they have two keyboard experiences,

00:50:50   and one is the laptop and one is the desktop, and the desktop is Magic Keyboard, and the

00:50:54   the laptop is this thing. Because otherwise, why does the Magic Keyboard even, why did

00:51:00   they do that? Why did they make that? Because that's an entirely new key style from either

00:51:06   the Macbook, the old Macbooks, or the new Macbooks.

00:51:09   - I think it makes sense in the world in which they don't need more battery inside of the

00:51:13   keyboard.

00:51:14   - Yeah, well, I'm not sure their keyboard needs to be thin and light, so maybe they

00:51:18   will keep it that way. I don't know. I don't know. Because that was always one of the advantages,

00:51:22   Like you said, one of the advantages of all the Apple keyboards being the same is that

00:51:26   they were the same everywhere. When you switch to a laptop, you didn't go, "Oh, now I'm

00:51:29   on a laptop." It was the same keyboard everywhere.

00:51:32   - So that's why I think they'll do it, because they will standardize the keyboard feel, and

00:51:36   the laptop will drive that, because it has done over the last few years. Something really

00:51:40   weird over the last few days came out. The startup chime is missing from this MacBook

00:51:45   Pro. Apple have removed the bong from this.

00:51:49   - Apparently there is a terminal command you can issue.

00:51:52   way to bring it back. Why would they do this? I would say it fits with Apple's tendency

00:52:00   to ask about, to question assumptions about their products and when you think that the

00:52:07   iOS devices just start up silently with a white apple on a black screen and that's

00:52:12   now what the Mac does, that this is consistent. I also saw several people say on Twitter and

00:52:19   I thought this was pretty good even though they knew they were swimming against the tide

00:52:23   and they were being troublemakers was to say, "Yeah, you know when I start up my iMac in

00:52:27   the middle of the night, I totally love the loud chime that wakes up my entire family."

00:52:32   So…

00:52:33   I mean it's nice that it, you know, but it's just… it's just weird.

00:52:41   Also I think if you're living in a world where two-thirds of the Macs sold their laptops,

00:52:47   The interaction you have with a laptop is you close the lid and you open the lid.

00:52:51   That's all you do.

00:52:53   People don't shut down their laptops usually.

00:52:55   They just open and close them.

00:52:57   In fact, with this new MacBook, when you open it and it's shut down, it starts up.

00:53:07   That was a change too.

00:53:09   Maybe they decided they really liked the interaction of if you open it, it starts up.

00:53:14   didn't want it to be, if you open it, it chimes and then starts up.

00:53:20   It's like, it's going to upset some people, right? And I'm kind of like, whatever. But

00:53:24   like I just think it's weird, like it's just like, it's just a strange thing to

00:53:30   decide to do. I think Apple has decided that the way that

00:53:33   these devices, the right way for these devices to operate is silently.

00:53:37   But like, in my mind, because the iPhone is silent, the iPad is silent.

00:53:40   You remove the chime when the startup is instant.

00:53:43   Right. Well, it's getting closer, but it's still not there.

00:53:47   Because, like, why even do it? I know there are reasons, but it's like, why this device

00:53:52   did you choose for this to be the one? I mean, because then there's like the MacBook. I

00:53:57   don't know if this does it, but the MacBook, it makes a sound when you plug it in, right?

00:54:00   Yes. Same.

00:54:01   Does this do this?

00:54:02   Yeah.

00:54:03   You know, it's like these strange things. It's like it's still the same operating

00:54:06   system, but this version of the machine doesn't make the sound.

00:54:09   I think they've decided that Apple products behave a certain way in certain situations.

00:54:13   - IOS or Mac, and they have the Apple.

00:54:16   So for every person who's saying,

00:54:19   "Oh, I can't believe they don't start up with a chime.

00:54:22   "Every Mac I've ever owned has started up with a chime."

00:54:25   - Some people are like, "Finally."

00:54:26   - Well, I think there are a lot of people

00:54:28   who are expecting their Mac to behave

00:54:30   like their iPad and their iPhone behave,

00:54:33   which is chirp when I plug it in, and--

00:54:36   - Stay quiet.

00:54:39   - When I open it up, have it spring into action.

00:54:43   and not ever chime, right?

00:54:45   And I think that would be the argument,

00:54:48   is it's consistent across the product line

00:54:50   of all of Apple's products now and the Mac.

00:54:53   You know, also the chime, you know,

00:54:55   the chime was meant to be a differentiator

00:54:58   over the little stupid beeps that PCs started up with.

00:55:02   It was sort of like from that tradition

00:55:03   of when your computer starts up,

00:55:05   it has a beep to tell you that it's, you know,

00:55:07   now initiating the startup process and all of that.

00:55:10   And it's an old way of approaching it.

00:55:15   And yeah, I don't know.

00:55:17   - Apple is out of the standalone display business.

00:55:23   - Yeah, this was funny.

00:55:24   I actually wrote a piece about all my notes of the event,

00:55:29   and I mentioned that they had this LG display,

00:55:32   and I asked them about it, and they said,

00:55:33   "Yes, it's P3, and it's a 5K display.

00:55:37   "It's, I believe, the same panel

00:55:40   that's used in the 5K iMac.

00:55:42   - Just cuts smaller.

00:55:43   - And you can attach it with one cable,

00:55:46   one Thunderbolt 3 cable, and it will power your computer,

00:55:50   it will charge your laptop,

00:55:52   and it has multiple USB ports and a webcam on it,

00:55:57   so that you can, it's like a docking station,

00:55:59   it's like the Thunderbolt support.

00:56:00   - It's like what we would have expected Apple to make.

00:56:02   - And in fact, Apple worked with LG on it

00:56:04   to the point where your keyboard controls and stuff,

00:56:07   your system controls, will control the brightness

00:56:10   and on the LG display and stuff.

00:56:12   Instead of having to press a menu button

00:56:14   and move through the menus,

00:56:15   you can do all of that from the computer.

00:56:18   So I wrote that it sounded to me like this means the end

00:56:23   for Apple being in the display business

00:56:25   because they just worked with a partner who makes displays

00:56:28   to have it do all the things that they would have built in

00:56:30   and Apple doesn't have to worry about it.

00:56:32   And Neely Patel at The Verge tweeted a link to my,

00:56:37   like retweeted my story link, which is very nice of him, and said, "This is a nice story."

00:56:43   And for the record, Apple told me they're out at the display business.

00:56:47   So Neil got the confirmation.

00:56:48   Not a surprise.

00:56:49   Not a surprise.

00:56:50   I mean, and people have shown this as an example of Apple not caring about the Mac.

00:56:54   And it's like, first off, the Thunderbolt display, I mean, Apple was kind of, you could

00:56:59   argue out of the display business, what, five years ago?

00:57:02   Because they released the Thunderbolt display and then that was it.

00:57:04   They haven't made a monitor in a long time.

00:57:06   They removed the Thunderbolt display this year, but it's been irrelevant for several

00:57:10   years before that.

00:57:11   The thing is, like the not care thing, you could have made that argument when they cancelled

00:57:16   the Thunderbolt display and they said, "There are great options available.

00:57:19   Go find them."

00:57:20   Yes.

00:57:21   But this time, they've worked with a company to make sure there's a really good monitor

00:57:25   option.

00:57:26   A company that makes monitors and cares about it and will sell them at whatever their margins

00:57:31   are.

00:57:32   And Apple doesn't have to have it be Apple branded.

00:57:35   I don't know.

00:57:36   Maybe this is a silly parallel to make,

00:57:41   but did everybody freak out

00:57:43   when Apple got out of the printer business?

00:57:46   - Probably.

00:57:47   (laughing)

00:57:48   - Probably, but you know,

00:57:50   does Apple need to be in the monitor business?

00:57:52   No, it absolutely does not need to be in that business.

00:57:56   So it's not gonna be in that business.

00:57:58   - Like just imagine that this is a slightly less

00:58:00   good looking Thunderbolt display

00:58:02   and you're all good to go.

00:58:03   - Yeah, put some tape over the LG logo if you want,

00:58:05   but this is it. I mean, I think people should be excited because this means that when that

00:58:10   new Mac Pro comes out next spring, let's just cross our fingers, but I think it's

00:58:15   got to happen, and already with these new MacBook Pros, you got it now. You want a laptop

00:58:21   and a 5K display like that 5K iMac. You bought a 5K iMac because even though you're a laptop

00:58:27   person and you'd much rather have one computer, you bought the standalone computer because

00:58:31   you wanted that beautiful 27-inch 5K display,

00:58:34   and were willing to pay for it,

00:58:36   and now you've got two computers, oh well.

00:58:39   Guess what?

00:58:40   As of now, you can go back to being that laptop person

00:58:44   and running it docked.

00:58:46   You can do clamshell mode if you want,

00:58:48   and one plug, and you're plugged in,

00:58:50   and you're on a 5K display that is the same display

00:58:53   as on that iMac.

00:58:54   It exists today.

00:58:56   This is the dream, right?

00:58:57   This is the dream, external 5K display with one cable

00:59:00   from your Mac. We're living the dream. So I think it's all good news.

00:59:06   Last thing I want to ask you about the Mac work. Should they have included a USB A to

00:59:11   C dongle in the box? Four USB C ports.

00:59:16   Yeah, or two on my 13 with the function row.

00:59:21   Yeah, exactly. You need dongles. Dongles are the word. Everybody is going to need them.

00:59:28   they have like with the headphone jack put one of these in the box? With the difference

00:59:34   being there's no other option, right? Like it's not like Bluetooth, there was another

00:59:39   option. It's like all you can do is plug stuff in.

00:59:42   I'm gonna say yes for one reason, which is every iOS device Apple makes ships with a

00:59:53   - And the USB-A.

00:59:55   And I know that the primary goal of the iPad and the iPhone

00:59:59   is not to connect it to your computer,

01:00:01   but sometimes you gotta.

01:00:03   And if you're in that situation where you've gotta connect

01:00:10   to your computer, you can't now without another adapter.

01:00:14   So I think it would've been a nice thing for them to do,

01:00:17   to just ship that adapter in the box for a generation.

01:00:21   But you can get it for whatever it costs.

01:00:23   I have the Thunderbolt adapter.

01:00:25   It's amazing.

01:00:26   It's like a block of cheese or something.

01:00:29   It's like a tube attached to a wire.

01:00:33   It's fascinating the amount of electronics

01:00:37   that must be in there in order to convert--

01:00:38   - What is that, Thunderbolt to what?

01:00:40   - It's a Thunderbolt.

01:00:41   - Oh.

01:00:42   - Thunderbolt 3 to traditional

01:00:44   like mini-display port shape Thunderbolt.

01:00:47   That's a weird adapter, but it works.

01:00:49   I actually transferred my data to this computer

01:00:51   from my MacBook Air by putting my MacBook Air

01:00:54   in Thunderbolt target mode and attaching

01:00:57   a Thunderbolt cable to that adapter

01:00:59   to the Thunderbolt 3 on here.

01:01:01   Let's talk about Thunderbolt for a second

01:01:02   just because, I mean, this is true,

01:01:04   we've been anticipating this day, but now it's here.

01:01:07   These ports are Thunderbolt 3.

01:01:09   - Yeah, they're not actually USB-C.

01:01:11   - Yeah, I mean, they use the same connector.

01:01:13   - Yeah.

01:01:14   - And they emulate USB-C in the same way,

01:01:16   and I know this is a weird parallel,

01:01:17   but I'm making weird parallels right now.

01:01:20   If you think about, Mini DisplayPort used to be the port

01:01:22   on some Mac laptops.

01:01:26   It was just a monitor port.

01:01:27   And then it became the Thunderbolt port.

01:01:30   But it was the same plug.

01:01:31   And if you plugged a Mini DisplayPort monitor into it,

01:01:33   it just acted like a Mini DisplayPort.

01:01:36   That's what's on these new MacBook Pros.

01:01:38   They are the shape of USB 3.

01:01:40   If you plug in, or USB-C,

01:01:42   if you plug in a USB-C something, it works.

01:01:46   - It's kind of awesome.

01:01:47   - Yeah, it's great.

01:01:48   But if you plug in a Thunderbolt 3 something,

01:01:53   it gets all of the power of Thunderbolt 3, which is more.

01:01:55   It's like a super set of what's in USB-C.

01:01:57   And that's how you drive the 5K displays

01:01:59   with Thunderbolt 3.

01:02:01   But what it does mean is like that Thunderbolt 3

01:02:05   to Thunderbolt 2 adapter that I bought,

01:02:08   or Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt like old,

01:02:10   because I think it works with one or two.

01:02:12   If you try to plug that into a MacBook, it doesn't work.

01:02:16   Because it's Thunderbolt.

01:02:18   it needs Thunderbolt.

01:02:19   - 'Cause the MacBook is USB-C.

01:02:20   - Is USB-C.

01:02:21   Now I imagine next spring's MacBook

01:02:24   - Will be Thunderbolt 3.

01:02:24   - Will be Thunderbolt 3.

01:02:26   - Well maybe, 'cause the problem is the chipset

01:02:28   and blah blah blah blah blah, ATP.

01:02:30   - Yes, ATP will tell you.

01:02:32   But I would imagine as soon as they can possibly

01:02:35   convert that thing into Thunderbolt 3.

01:02:37   - It will be, it's a better connector.

01:02:38   - They will.

01:02:39   - It's just like I appreciate how good that connector is,

01:02:42   but all I know is the 2016 is not a USB-C world yet.

01:02:46   - Things are moving.

01:02:47   - Yeah, this is gonna help.

01:02:48   This is gonna help a lot.

01:02:49   I mean, Apple only having one USB-C product

01:02:52   for a year and a half

01:02:53   was not gonna make things move a whole lot.

01:02:55   There's more that's out there when the MacBook came out,

01:02:57   so that's a good start.

01:02:59   - The hope is that Apple now give

01:03:01   an excuse to the PC industry as well.

01:03:06   That like now the PC industry say,

01:03:07   "Oh, well Apple's done it, so we'll do it too."

01:03:09   Which is how things tend to go.

01:03:10   - Yeah, and I mean, it's already happening on the PC side,

01:03:12   but I think that this will probably

01:03:14   make it that much easier for everybody on the PC side to push to USB-C, if not Thunderbolt

01:03:19   3. I mean, they can pick up Thunderbolt 3, that's an Intel thing, but if they don't do

01:03:24   that, then there's USB-C at least. And it's a much smaller connector and, you know, it's

01:03:31   reversible so you can stick it in either way. As you said, ATP, they've been talking about

01:03:34   this over there for ages. But bless them. I enjoy those conversations a lot.

01:03:41   - I learned, that's how I knew that the MacBook

01:03:44   wouldn't work with Thunderbolt 3,

01:03:45   'cause the Intel chip says wrong.

01:03:47   - And in reality, I don't think this is gonna be

01:03:49   a conversion nightmare, because I think

01:03:52   if your device doesn't need the power of Thunderbolt 3,

01:03:57   it won't be a Thunderbolt 3 device.

01:04:00   There's not gonna be, if you're like a MacBook person,

01:04:02   you're like, oh my God, now everything I have to do,

01:04:04   everything I buy, I gotta be careful

01:04:05   that it's not the wrong thing.

01:04:07   I think it'll be devices that require the extreme speed of Thunderbolt 3 that will build

01:04:14   in Thunderbolt 3, because there's a lot of overhead in Thunderbolt 3 that I think isn't

01:04:18   there in USB-C. So most things will probably be USB-C. And on the MacBook Pro, it doesn't

01:04:23   matter. You'll just plug them in. You won't worry about it, because they'll all work,

01:04:27   and it'll be fine. But I think it's good. I think it's great. That's why I did the draft

01:04:31   I Apple Apple decided to rip the mandate off and just say everything you know there will not be here's another bold prediction

01:04:38   I'll just throw it out there. I think it's obvious so how bold could it be there will not be another Mac

01:04:43   released with Thunderbolt and

01:04:46   USB a

01:04:48   Yeah, it's all it's all USB. It's all Thunderbolt 3 now

01:04:51   Yeah with a possible exception being like a MacBook it might have to have a USB C

01:04:56   But I can't keep doing that cuz it's too confusing

01:04:58   I feel like this is the end of the old connections and they are just moving on to the new world

01:05:05   All right, let's wrap up today's episode with some ask upgrades

01:05:08   Andy wanted to know if he judged your mood correctly. Yeah, I see I saw this picture

01:05:13   I'm gonna put it in the show, you know, my mood my mood was this is during the TV

01:05:19   introduction my movie my mood was that I was in the third row and I figured I was probably on gonna be on camera and

01:05:24   And so when I looked up, I would try to appear personable

01:05:28   and not angry.

01:05:29   I wasn't angry, I'm working.

01:05:33   The answer to every question of when I saw you

01:05:36   on the live video stream, what were you thinking

01:05:38   or what were you doing or why did you look that way,

01:05:41   the answer is always, I was working.

01:05:43   I was doing my job and working, that's what I was doing.

01:05:46   - You didn't look very happy with that.

01:05:48   - I was not angry, I was not unhappy, I was working.

01:05:51   That's just how it is.

01:05:52   I'm not sitting there.

01:05:53   But you know what, if I could just lay back and enjoy an Apple presentation, also I will

01:05:58   say this about these Apple presentations, I'm not usually in the third row, I'm usually

01:06:01   toward the back.

01:06:02   - It's fancy.

01:06:03   - We just sort of ended up at the front.

01:06:08   And everybody in front of us was Apple employees, so I can say this, first off, all the applause

01:06:15   that happens in Apple events starts in the first row.

01:06:20   The first person to clap at all the clap lines is somebody in the first row.

01:06:24   At least once I noticed that it was Eddie Q. I could see Eddie Q start the clapping

01:06:29   and I was like, "All right, that's where it's starting from."

01:06:32   Eddie's on clap duty today.

01:06:34   And it's a little bit awkward because I will clap at an Apple event for a person who did

01:06:42   something impressive or something.

01:06:43   I'll do a polite clap for some things, not for very long.

01:06:47   But I do not participate in the "Here's a feature, clap, clap, clap, clap," especially

01:06:54   when I'm sitting there and I can see how it's Apple executives who are starting the

01:06:59   clap.

01:07:00   So it's fine.

01:07:01   It's a show.

01:07:02   It's marketing.

01:07:03   It is what it is, and that's fine.

01:07:06   So when you see me on the video of the Apple event, I'm doing my job and trying to pay

01:07:11   attention and trying not to look like I'm rolling my eyes and being mean to them because

01:07:16   Because I'm really not, I'm just paying attention and trying to do my job.

01:07:20   Richard asked, "Considering the high prices of the MacBook Pro in the UK, would it be

01:07:24   wise to buy the current iMac right now or just wait?

01:07:28   Like would it be, should you buy that?"

01:07:30   I think it's worth waiting because the iMac price will probably not go up when they introduce

01:07:37   the next one.

01:07:38   So I would wait.

01:07:39   If you can wait, I would still wait because it's more expensive now for the same computer.

01:07:44   But if you are able to wait, wait until they actually make that money worth it for you

01:07:48   by giving you some new internals.

01:07:49   And that's the same old thing that we always say, which is if you can afford to wait, you

01:07:52   should generally wait.

01:07:54   And in this case...

01:07:55   Although, like, you know, this is like a Godot situation with the Mac, but...

01:07:58   Yeah, I just, I feel fairly confident that there will be an iMac update probably in the

01:08:02   spring.

01:08:03   So if you can wait until the spring, and to your point about UK prices, price is up now.

01:08:08   So why not get a new computer without that larger price instead of an old computer?

01:08:13   Lucas wanted to ask, considering that you can charge the MacBook Pro from any of the

01:08:19   Thunderbolt 3 ports, can you put in multiple chargers for quicker charging?

01:08:24   No.

01:08:25   It picks, you could plug, you can plug in four chargers.

01:08:30   And what happens is, it looks for the one that's supplying the most power.

01:08:36   So if you've got like the big brick, cause like the 15 comes with a bigger brick than

01:08:39   and the 13, which comes in a bigger brick than the MacBook.

01:08:44   There are gradations of wattage.

01:08:46   And it will look for the one that's supplying

01:08:50   the most power and use that.

01:08:51   It does mean that you can charge on either side

01:08:55   of those MacBooks that have the four ports,

01:08:58   which is kind of flexible if you're like,

01:09:03   oh, it would work better in my setup

01:09:06   if I plugged it in the right side.

01:09:08   you can do that now, which you couldn't do when there was only the MagSafe connector.

01:09:12   But yeah, it will look, and if they're all the same, supplying the same amount of power,

01:09:16   I don't know what it does, it probably has a sequence that it goes in and it chooses

01:09:19   which one. But in the end, that's what it's doing, is it'll try to find the one that's

01:09:24   supplying it with the most wattage, and then it takes that one.

01:09:27   All right, that wraps up this week's episode. If you want to find our show notes for today,

01:09:32   go to relay.fm/upgrades/113. If you want to find Jason online, he is at @jasenel on Twitter,

01:09:41   he's at 6colors.com. I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E. Thank you so much to Pingdom for supporting

01:09:48   this week's episode. We are at the OR conference this weekend, so this is like basically these

01:09:54   next things are if you're here. But even if you're not, Jason is participating in something

01:10:00   called All Radio this week, which is a kind of a interesting podcast type thing that you're

01:10:07   going to be running people through. Do you want to say what people can listen to this?

01:10:14   Right? Yeah, so you can search for All Radio, U-L-L, radio on iTunes, or go to the RSS feed

01:10:21   is at feedpress.me/allradio. Of course, that would be in the show notes as well. And what

01:10:28   can people expect from that? Well, the conference hasn't started yet, so I haven't really decided.

01:10:34   The goal is for me to talk to people who are here, to talk to speakers and other presenters

01:10:41   and maybe even some conference participants and have some chats and put them in the feed

01:10:46   and provide sort of some combination between sort of supplemental information for the conference

01:10:54   as well as an opportunity for some of the great conversation that happens here at this

01:10:59   conference to be accessible to people who aren't here.

01:11:03   And just as another note, I wonder if people who are attending these conferences listen

01:11:07   to the podcasts that we make at them. So, the password is "bananas". If you're at the

01:11:13   All Conference and you come to me and say the password "bananas", I'll give you some

01:11:18   kind of special prize, just because I'm interested to know.

01:11:21   I've got stickers.

01:11:22   Jason has stickers.

01:11:23   So come to me and say bananas and I will make sure you get stickers.

01:11:25   There you go. So that is the secret code word if you're at the OAR conference.

01:11:29   I just want to see if anyone, if it will happen then.

01:11:31   Yeah.

01:11:31   So that's why I want to put right at the very end to people get right to the end whilst here.

01:11:35   So bananas is the password.

01:11:38   Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Upgrade.

01:11:40   We'll be back next week and there will be a big big ocean in between us.

01:11:44   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Stell.

01:11:46   Goodbye, Myke Hurley.

01:11:47   [Music]

01:12:00   Only all the gods have returned!

01:12:02   (laughing)

01:12:04   [