109: YouTube Killed the Podcast Star


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 109. Today's show is brought to you by Help Spot,

00:00:15   Ring, and Boom 2 from Global Delight. My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by the Snellatron,

00:00:21   Jason Snell. Uh, you can't do that, Myke. Exits are east and west.

00:00:28   If you've listened to the members episode, you'll get that joke.

00:00:30   If you haven't, go become a member, you can still get it.

00:00:33   Become a member!

00:00:34   It's still available to you.

00:00:35   How are you Mr Snell?

00:00:37   I'm doing fine, I haven't been the Snell-a-tron in a little while so that was fun to do.

00:00:41   Yeah, good, good, how are you?

00:00:43   Yeah, I'm good, a busy day today for me.

00:00:46   I launched a YouTube channel.

00:00:49   I saw that.

00:00:50   I saw that.

00:00:51   It is a little project that I've been, I've had kind of rattling around my brain for a

00:00:56   a while and I've been working on it for a couple of weeks and it's a vlog is

00:01:01   what I'm working on and in the style that I'm kind of working through is just

00:01:06   I'm making videos about my life the things that I do the things that I think

00:01:10   I think that there's gonna be a lot of crossover between the shows that I do

00:01:15   because the shows that I make are about things that I like right so there's I've

00:01:20   made your videos so far one of them includes the Amazon echo quite

00:01:24   significantly. One of them includes pens. I saw that one. I saw the one with pens.

00:01:31   Yeah, that's the first full video. There's an episode one and then there are three episode

00:01:35   zeros which were just like tests but I decided to put them up because I made them. And I'm

00:01:40   pretty proud of it and so far people seem really happy with it. So I would really really

00:01:45   love it if everybody listening would go and subscribe to the channel. The channel is Myke

00:01:50   mike hirley. So you can go to youtube.com/mikehirley. But if you're on mobile for a reason I cannot

00:01:55   understand, you have to go to youtube.com/user/mikehirley. There seems to be some kind of bug with YouTube

00:02:01   right now that any URL, not just like for people that have just started channels, just

00:02:06   throws up an error when you do that. I can't work this out. This is part of, so there's

00:02:10   a couple of reasons for this Jason why I'm doing this and this is exemplifying one of

00:02:15   them. I'm trying to understand YouTube.

00:02:17   Sure.

00:02:18   of them. So what goes into it, kind of what the challenges are of it, and this is one of them.

00:02:26   So like on this show we have spoken so much about platforms and gatekeepers and stuff like that.

00:02:31   This is the biggest one of all of them. So I'm trying to understand what it's like to be within

00:02:38   a system that you cannot control for your content, which is this, but also the flip side of this is,

00:02:45   I want to give myself over to their algorithm and see what happens.

00:02:49   I think, I mean, I totally get where your reasoning for doing this and wanting to discover

00:02:55   this. One of the things that I had on my list when I started being an independent person

00:02:59   was experimenting with YouTube and I just haven't done more than a couple of videos

00:03:04   and partly it's I haven't had the idea that pushes me over the edge and part of it is

00:03:11   not having, you know, it's very time consuming and there are lots of reasons, but I too am

00:03:16   fascinated by YouTube and it is, you know, having kids. My son, YouTube, is his only

00:03:25   video entertainment. And for my daughter, it is a huge part of her video entertainment,

00:03:30   although now that she's a little bit older and a teenager, she's really into Netflix

00:03:34   stuff too. So that's how she's coming around to traditional television. But YouTube was

00:03:40   there first and is still a great love of hers, she loves youtubers, those are

00:03:45   her TV stars. So I think it's a super important part as media people, right?

00:03:50   It's a super important part of our landscape and the future and so to kind

00:03:54   of poo-poo it would be a big mistake. I'm still trying to figure out the right

00:03:59   way for me to do it and I suppose, you know, I've been putting it off.

00:04:04   So it's great to see you jumping in. I'm struck by looking at your videos that it

00:04:08   is an awful lot of work that you're putting into those videos. Not just in Final Cut where,

00:04:15   I mean, I wrote a post on Six Colors last week about slapping together the Total Party

00:04:19   Kill videos and how I'm impressed at how easy it is to do that in Final Cut Pro X. I'm just

00:04:25   amazed at how quickly I can put together something that looks more or less like I wanted it to

00:04:30   look. But when I looked at your videos, I thought, you spent a lot of production time

00:04:34   on it in terms of putting in text and overlays and things and the music and doing your editing

00:04:40   and I've done video editing for like 20 years, 25 years. I know how much time that takes

00:04:44   but I also noted that you're committing to videoing your life which means that now when

00:04:50   you go to dinner with Adina, you're taking time lapses and taking videos and even if

00:04:57   you don't, everything you do in your life isn't videoed, you, by doing this you're sort

00:05:03   of committing to saying, "I'm going to consider what in my life is going to be something I

00:05:11   document for everything you do," which is more time and more brain space that is taken

00:05:17   up by it.

00:05:18   It's weird, and I don't know how it's going to fall out yet. I know I'm really excited

00:05:22   about it right now, and frankly Adina seems excited about it too.

00:05:25   That's great.

00:05:26   Which is good, because she would kind of have to be for this to work.

00:05:31   Yes, I thought that as I saw her sitting there across from you at dinner smiling, I thought,

00:05:36   "Well, she's got to be okay with this or this is not going to happen."

00:05:39   She thought I was taking a picture of her then.

00:05:42   She did know that I ended up taking a video that I was going to use, but she thought it

00:05:45   was a photo.

00:05:46   So a friend of the show, James Thompson, developer of Peacock, he sent me a message earlier and

00:05:50   he said, "It looks like this is a lot of work.

00:05:52   How does this compare to audio?"

00:05:54   So I have not been tracking this properly because every single one of the videos has

00:05:58   taken a vastly different amount of time to put together for reasons that I can't understand,

00:06:03   mainly because I'm still learning and I see things that I want to do but I don't know

00:06:08   how to do them so I have to work out how to do them.

00:06:11   But to kind of, on the back of the envelope calculation, purely in the edit, so let's

00:06:17   say I'm just talking about editing, with audio it takes me about two minutes to every minute

00:06:23   if I'm doing a full edit. So I don't do this with all of our shows, some shows I make notes

00:06:28   and go back and edit and take it out quickly. So like this show, I make notes as we record

00:06:33   for the things to cut out and it means I can get a 90 minute show edited in 15 minutes

00:06:40   because this is a timely show, we like to get it out. But Cortex isn't, for example,

00:06:45   so for Cortex I do a full listen edit and that takes about two minutes to every minute

00:06:50   of what's recorded to do. So it's about twice as long to edit as it is the recorded length.

00:06:56   I would say right now for video, it's 45 to 60 minutes per minute of edit.

00:07:03   Let alone wrestling with YouTube's system.

00:07:08   Which is just crazy making.

00:07:12   Just doing things like putting in the annotations, like the areas that you can click, trying

00:07:17   to deal with their system is crazy.

00:07:21   I can't believe that YouTube haven't released native tools to do this, that you just upload

00:07:27   the metadata, because part of the problem is dealing with their website and its caching.

00:07:30   But anyway, I'm going to save this discussion for Cortex, because this is a little bit in

00:07:36   the weeds now.

00:07:37   I would love to hear you guys talk about it.

00:07:39   Episode 38 of Cortex, which also came out today, kind of talks about in much, much more

00:07:44   detail why I'm doing this.

00:07:46   And then me and Gray are going to kind of talk about this over the next few episodes

00:07:49   as I come to terms with all of the things that are going on in my new YouTube life,

00:07:56   which is a very, very weird thing to say.

00:08:01   So just after we recorded last week's episode, it was rumored that Disney were in the fray

00:08:07   for buying Twinkies.

00:08:08   Yeah, it doesn't, it never fails, does it? That we do a subject and then, like immediately

00:08:14   after that episode posted, like within an hour of that episode posting. The rumor was

00:08:20   that Disney was considering a bid for Twitter, so I just want to warn everybody that when

00:08:26   you hear the news in the next couple of hours that Twitter might also be bought by Toyota

00:08:31   or Rolex.

00:08:32   Or that they just flat out have been sold, which I reckon is the most likely thing.

00:08:36   SpaceX, the US Army, you know, a shadowy billionaire industrialist.

00:08:41   Yeah, great podcast.

00:08:42   great podcast. Yeah, then we did that apparently because this is what we do is talk about things

00:08:49   and then immediately other things happen. Disney makes sense only to me. People are

00:08:55   like, "Whoa, Disney, that doesn't make any sense," because they're thinking of Disney

00:08:57   as the brand and Mickey Mouse and theme parks and things like that. But Disney is a huge

00:09:01   media company, not just the movies from Disney and Marvel and Star Wars, but ESPN and ABC.

00:09:10   So if you think about Twitter as a real-time medium for sports and news, that's another

00:09:15   thing and reality TV shows and commentary about things that are happening on television,

00:09:21   that's all actually not as weird a thing as you might initially think. So I didn't think

00:09:25   that was an unreasonable suggestion, but it just was a surprise to us because we had just

00:09:30   talked about that subject. We had one little bit of follow-up too, which is I know you

00:09:34   mentioned Google and the real names policy and whether if Google is a suitor for Twitter,

00:09:40   if Google might be better at that and I complain about YouTube comments. Good luck with that,

00:09:44   by the way, Myke.

00:09:45   Myke L: They've been really great so far.

00:09:46   JE; That is good. I've come around to Grey's opinion about YouTube comments, which is you

00:09:52   just let them go. Just embrace them. I don't know if he ever said that on a podcast. I

00:09:56   asked him that in person.

00:09:57   Myke L; He said it on episode 38, so you're all good.

00:10:00   JE; When we had lunch, I was like, "What do you do about the YouTube comments?" He says,

00:10:04   "You don't have to look at them." Although, he says, "I look at them and laugh if there's

00:10:09   something awful because it's like, you know, whatever, it's a YouTube commenter. But if

00:10:16   they bother you, just don't look at them. But leave them on because let them have their,

00:10:20   you know, let whoever have their fun. And I kind of have come around to that now that

00:10:24   they are what they are. But anyway, it's so our listener Harley wrote in and said they

00:10:31   moved away from that and actually linked to a recent study that said that using real names

00:10:38   and having a real names policy doesn't help when it comes to abuse online.

00:10:42   So which is a shame. I was always under the impression that it would help in my brain,

00:10:46   you know, like I just thought, oh, if people were accountable, but seems like maybe not.

00:10:51   So thank you to Harley. I'm glad you sent that in.

00:10:55   Tony suggested for the comic segment Com Myke Con. How is this one sitting with you?

00:11:03   I like putting the con making a comic-con instead of just comics actually makes me like it more so I'm kind of intrigued by that

00:11:11   I'm also thinking that since we've got Myke that maybe Myke's comics or comics with Myke is enough

00:11:18   Just keep keep it simple

00:11:21   We've gone around this far like weeks and weeks of suggestions, and we're just gonna call it comics with Myke

00:11:29   so

00:11:32   I'm gonna let you have the final decision on this one. I'm still I'm still pondering still pondering

00:11:37   I also just wanted to include in the show notes Joe Steele fake name wrote a blog post about

00:11:43   the iPhone portrait mode where he goes into

00:11:47   Incredible detail about the things that he can see good and bad about the portrait mode

00:11:53   and I wanted to include this in the notes because

00:11:58   Steel knows what he's talking about when it comes to visuals. So I thought it was just a good thing to include

00:12:04   It really does upset me whenever I see any blog posts with my photos in them though from that first day

00:12:10   Because it just feels unfair like so, you know Joe included a couple of pictures that I took

00:12:15   Yeah, but it's just in the worst light possible

00:12:18   Yeah, well he also has my picture that I took of my cat which which is good because it's got a great example of really

00:12:26   consistent blurring effects in the foreground.

00:12:29   But yeah, yeah.

00:12:31   No, it's a really good post.

00:12:33   He, I mean, as he says,

00:12:35   he is a professional at fake imagery.

00:12:39   - Yeah, that's what he knows for a living.

00:12:41   - So he knows about faking, you know,

00:12:44   things to look like they came through natural light

00:12:48   in a camera, that's his job.

00:12:49   - It's like, I would imagine that sometimes for Steele,

00:12:53   he causes those errors and then has to fix them with his work right like you know he creates

00:12:59   things that don't look right and then they have to be fixed so yeah i mean look i could go around

00:13:04   again and again talking about this but i've been taking more pictures of this thing and i think

00:13:09   it's freaking amazing and do you know what like there are some photos that i've been taking where

00:13:13   i delete them because i can see some errors but i kind of don't care like the ones that i like i

00:13:19   I know that there are things in them that aren't magically perfect and that people can't

00:13:23   take but it's like for me, really, it's telling that everybody who is upset about this feature

00:13:30   or thinks that it's not good or is unhappy with the results, they own big cameras.

00:13:34   Yeah, I think that's right. Joe, by the way, Mr. Steele himself suggests a piece by Stu

00:13:43   Maschwitz that we'll put in the show notes about the depth effect. So, thanks, Joe.

00:13:49   last thing about the cameras and this is something that is weird but okay in low

00:13:54   light situations the two times mode is digital zoom and I've been testing this

00:13:59   out but put my finger over the cameras and it on the plus and it's just a

00:14:04   little bit strange I mean I can see why they're doing it and you can kind of I

00:14:07   can kind of trick it like I can point it inside the room into a dark area and I

00:14:11   can see it when I cover the camera then I point it at the window and it goes

00:14:14   black as the cameras are switching over and I'm kind of like I'm fine with it

00:14:20   like I'm because I know why it's doing it like it's trying to make

00:14:24   sure it can get the best picture and the low light from the other camera isn't

00:14:28   great but it's like huh it's just weird I don't really have a lot to say about

00:14:32   it but it's just like a weird thing so what I would suggest though if anybody

00:14:36   is frustrated by this is to download a third-party camera app which will allow

00:14:41   you to control specifically which camera you're using. I've been using an app called ProCam

00:14:47   just again to fiddle around with stuff as I'm doing my YouTubing stuff because all my

00:14:51   videos are shot on my iPhone and I'm planning to leave it that way for the foreseeable future

00:14:58   and ProCam just does some crazy stuff and you can like choose which camera lens you

00:15:04   want to use. They have this like 3D thing now where it uses both of them and it creates

00:15:08   these like glitchy jiggly photos that go backwards and forwards and it looks kind of 3D. It's

00:15:14   really weird. But it's a great app so I recommend it. I'll put a link to it in the show notes.

00:15:19   But that's all I have to say, Jason. It was very kind of backwards and forwards what I

00:15:23   was talking about just there. But there we go.

00:15:26   That's okay. That's all right. So what you're saying is that you had a different, several

00:15:30   different planes of depth in your conversation and then they were calculated.

00:15:34   And turned into a very blurry opinion.

00:15:36   Well, only some of it. Some of it was perfectly in focus and the others we artificially blurred.

00:15:41   Blurry around the edges. Joe will diagram your paragraph for you and

00:15:44   tell you what you did right and wrong. It'll be fine.

00:15:47   You could do it for me because you're the pro.

00:15:49   I could. I could. This week's episode is brought to you by

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00:18:02   So Jason Snell.

00:18:04   So Myke Hurley.

00:18:06   With my new video career here.

00:18:08   Yeah, so who's my new co-host once you become a huge video star?

00:18:12   Yeah, I don't know. We'll work that out.

00:18:15   I guess you will kill the radio star. You're a video star. You were your own video star

00:18:20   killing your own radio star.

00:18:21   YouTube killed the podcast star.

00:18:24   Oh man, get the Buggles on the phone. Mm-hmm, Buggles 2.0. File a Buggle report.

00:18:30   With... anyway. Go mic at the movies. Nope, let's stop now, shall we? As I am now finding new ways

00:18:41   to put my Mac through its paces, I'm wondering where are all of the Macintosh computers? It is

00:18:52   October the third? No no no no Myke you know what it is? What is it?

00:18:57   MACTOBER! Oh yeah? We're in MACTOBER are we? I think maybe we are. Tell me about this.

00:19:05   I am I am increasingly optimistic let's put it that way I feel I feel good about this I feel like

00:19:12   we're going to get MACs of some sort this month I just I the rumors are heating up

00:19:21   the you know they've recycled the MacBook Pro with OLED Touch Bar and

00:19:27   Touch ID sensor rumor again but it's out there again

00:19:32   it sounds like it just it you know they couldn't ship it for WWDC and so they

00:19:36   delayed it but the rumors are swirling that it is coming soon

00:19:40   there was a story on a site that I've never heard of that was referred to by I

00:19:46   think macrumors.com as a shaky rumor which is hilarious to me that rumor sites

00:19:51   are calling out other sites for their quality of rumors, but hey, they're the ones who know,

00:19:57   that actually said that it was going to be, there was going to be a media event on October

00:20:02   24th, which is a Monday, which seems really weird to me. But I feel like this is, if you

00:20:07   look back, Apple has more often than not over the last few years had an October event following

00:20:13   their big blowout iPhone September event. And last year they didn't. And I think given,

00:20:20   we talked about it like that conversation I had with Jon Gruber as we were going into

00:20:23   the Apple event this year where last month where the whole thought was maybe when they

00:20:29   said goodbye to town hall, they really legitimately did think that they were those MacBook Pros

00:20:33   were going to come out at WWDC and they wouldn't need another event to launch them. But obviously

00:20:37   that didn't happen. So maybe this is something that is sort of come into focus in the last

00:20:43   few months that yeah, we're going to we're going to need to go back to the two-step instead

00:20:46   of just the single event like we did last year. So I think that's the most

00:20:50   likely scenario and when you talk about the rumors that are heating up

00:20:53   again, reheating those rumors for the MacBook Pro, when you talk about the

00:20:57   rumors of a new MacBook Air, which baffled us sort of when we

00:21:02   heard that initially, but you know those are out there, a USB-C MacBook Air, maybe

00:21:06   even a MacBook Air with a Retina display, that, you know, I don't know what

00:21:11   of that is true or not, but there's enough accumulating here and that the

00:21:14   bottom line is that MacBook Pro cannot be launched with a press release. It is a

00:21:17   dramatic change to the flagship Mac essentially and so how could they just

00:21:24   do that with a press release? So I just feel like all signs are pointing to a

00:21:28   mid to late October Apple event somewhere maybe on campus maybe it's

00:21:32   Town Hall again one last ride for Town Hall an encore performance at Town Hall

00:21:37   or maybe it's something that's off-site but because it's a Mac event it won't

00:21:40   need the media scrutiny that an iPhone event requires. So I don't know, I'm feeling better

00:21:47   about this being—plus they need it, right? I mean, that's the other bottom line here,

00:21:51   is that those products all need to be refreshed. Macs are not necessarily holiday splurge items,

00:21:58   but still, going into the holiday season with a line that is, other than the MacBook, completely

00:22:03   covered in dust and cobwebs seems like a bad idea to me.

00:22:08   So regarding the weirdness of the MacBook Air, my theory on this, it's not a complicated

00:22:15   theory, but it's my theory, there is no MacBook Air. That's actually a refresh to the MacBook,

00:22:20   but the wires got crossed. Like, that they're going to refresh the MacBook again.

00:22:26   It could be. It could be.

00:22:28   Because I seriously cannot understand why they would do this, anything, to the MacBook

00:22:33   Air now.

00:22:34   I think the question is, the MacBook is, well, Apple knows how the MacBook is selling better

00:22:40   than we do, right? And the MacBook is a beautiful piece of hardware, but it is limited. The

00:22:45   processor isn't very fast.

00:22:47   Right, but that's what I think they're going to do. They're going to put something

00:22:49   more comparable in there.

00:22:51   Yeah, well, so this is the question, but would you do that in an Air, which is this old enclosure?

00:23:02   seems weird to me if they take the MacBook Air which rather than just

00:23:05   having a variation on the MacBook right? It may be that they're feeling is like

00:23:09   the MacBook Air still sells well and they can without having to go

00:23:15   because the MacBook because it's so small and fanless has incredible

00:23:22   limitations that the MacBook Air enclosure doesn't have so they could put

00:23:26   a retina display in the 13-inch MacBook Air enclosure and still have a pretty

00:23:31   powerful processor in there compared to what they can fit in the MacBook. And so

00:23:35   I wonder if that's the conversation is like look if everybody loves the MacBook

00:23:38   Air and it's still selling really well and it allows us to kind of hold down

00:23:42   the bottom of our product line on the laptop front in terms of price why

00:23:45   wouldn't and we still can't really crank up the power on the MacBook it's just

00:23:51   too early why not just keep the MacBook Air around another year or two it's not

00:23:56   like the old Apple Playbook I will grant you a hundred percent but you know it's

00:24:00   a new Apple and I do wonder if somebody made that argument that they'd be better off in

00:24:06   the interim having a product that's not the high-end MacBook Pro but is also not the speed

00:24:12   limited and port limited MacBook.

00:24:15   I just can't stand the design of that thing anymore. That horrific huge silver bezel.

00:24:21   The bezel, hey, I have one, I don't use it every day anymore, but I have one sitting

00:24:26   right behind me now and and I love that I love that computer so much but compared

00:24:31   to Apple's entire product line it looks wrong doesn't it? I mean I suppose they

00:24:36   could change the bezel if they're if they're making it a retinas display

00:24:40   maybe they change the bezel or something but it does it is the last it's I don't

00:24:46   even know how you you call it it's the last series design language right it's

00:24:49   like the previous generation design language of Apple laptops and it's still

00:24:53   kind of hanging around. So I don't know what that is. I think you're totally right that

00:25:00   one of the problems with especially supply chain rumors is that you don't know what the

00:25:06   marketing is, right? So there are, it's just like remember the iPhone math, which was iPhone

00:25:13   Plus I guess. There are lots of, you could be seeing a 13-inch USB-C laptop from Apple

00:25:21   that is not going to be called a MacBook Air and doesn't look like the MacBook Air but

00:25:25   is also not the super thin MacBook, it's a different MacBook and they call it something

00:25:30   different or they call it the MacBook or maybe they do call it the MacBook Air. That's the

00:25:34   part that we don't know but there are those rumors out there about that which was surprising

00:25:37   but they have not faded away. So what it's called would be an interesting part of it

00:25:44   and if the MacBook Air keeps on living for a while I think that's fine, I think there's

00:25:49   a place for it because the MacBook, as futuristic as it is and as perfectly good as it is for

00:25:55   a lot of uses, there are also a lot of people who use a MacBook Air who probably would not

00:26:01   choose to switch to a MacBook because of the limitations of it right now, today, maybe

00:26:06   not in two years.

00:26:09   So I want to go back to that timing for a second. October 24 feels really late because

00:26:17   then you're looking at what shipping note start of November maybe or like within a couple

00:26:21   of days basically start of November.

00:26:24   Yeah, but that is something that Macs sometimes are shipping same week, right? They have done

00:26:30   that with Mac announcements. Also, they've done Mac announcements where they ship certain

00:26:34   models that day or at the end of that week and then other ones come later, right? And

00:26:41   it ends up being, "Oh, well, that one didn't ship until December 28th." That has happened

00:26:46   too. But again, holiday, you could refresh the bulk of the product line and then if one

00:26:52   of the products seems problematic, right? One of the problems is like, "Ah, this is

00:26:56   hard to make, it's having delays on the product line," you know, they say, "Well, that one

00:27:02   will be available later," and they just kind of move on with it. But it's late if you're

00:27:06   thinking about capturing holiday shoppers, but if they're all on the channel by the first

00:27:10   couple weeks in November, I think it'll be fine.

00:27:12   Yeah, it's, it's, um, it just seems, it just seems too close to the holidays, you know?

00:27:21   And I don't know why they're releasing them. I don't know if they're doing them for the

00:27:24   holidays or they're doing them just, like, because at this point, but it, yeah.

00:27:29   Or because of timing, that this is when they've got the, they feel like they have to. They've

00:27:33   also been pressured, you know, with the Intel chip delays, they may be, feel pressured to

00:27:38   maybe they almost certainly had a different schedule planned and the way that Intel's

00:27:43   chip releases are falling, they can't. So they may have finally decided we just need

00:27:49   to do a refresh now even though it's not the ideal time because we can't, we've

00:27:54   waited too long already and now if we wait for the next shoe to drop it will be spring

00:27:59   and everything will be six months, even six months older.

00:28:01   David: Especially when they're sitting on not just revisions but potential revolutions

00:28:06   in the products, right? Like, that the MacBook Pro is a brand new MacBook Pro. It's not just

00:28:12   like the MacBook Pro that we know and love, you know?

00:28:15   - Right. There are also rumors that Sierra is the next beta of Sierra. That's one of

00:28:21   the prime features that's gonna go into it, is the support for all the, you know, the

00:28:25   touch bar and touch ID on the Mac and all of that, which, you know, people were intuiting

00:28:29   from the fact that Sierra has this unlock, Apple Watch unlock feature and Apple Pay that

00:28:35   all uses iOS devices that, yeah, that uses touch ID. So, you know, that you can do Apple

00:28:43   Pay but you need to have a device that you're authenticating that's external, the logical

00:28:48   thought is, well, this will be on Macs in the future, when will that be? And so, yeah,

00:28:55   all signs point to it and all timing suggests that it was meant to be sooner and it didn't

00:29:00   get out then. So, but I think it's going to happen. I'm optimistic about it. This is not

00:29:07   one of those like sources tell me that, but it's not that. But it just, if I had to, my

00:29:16   confidence in this being a real thing has gone up, I guess is what I would say.

00:29:21   - I was in an Apple store yesterday. I went to a Covent Garden Apple store. I was in the

00:29:26   area and I wanted to just to hold the jet black a little bit more than I had

00:29:32   because I'd only touched one for like a second yeah and I wanted to kind of pick

00:29:37   it up and yeah it does feel really great like it feels amazing to hold it is a

00:29:43   very strange feeling product it I almost can't believe that there's aluminium in

00:29:47   there but I also again turn the thing over and it was just caked in hand grease

00:29:53   further proving to myself why I just couldn't deal with that phone but

00:29:59   walking around the Apple store and kind of just looking at stuff and they had

00:30:03   all these Macs everywhere right because obviously they sell them and that every

00:30:08   single one of them had people in front of them playing around with them and

00:30:12   certainly that day people were buying them right because that's just I assume

00:30:18   is the natural thing in what is currently the only central London store

00:30:22   because the Regent Street store is still closed for renovations. So there's going to be people

00:30:27   buying those computers that day and they're going to be spending a lot of money and probably

00:30:31   many of them, if not all of them, will fall outside of the return window. And there's

00:30:36   just a part of me that's like, "Those computers are really old." It's not that like if somebody

00:30:43   goes in and buys an iPhone three weeks before the next iPhone, because that thing's good.

00:30:51   got some time on that. But you've got people going in there and buying MacBook Airs and

00:30:56   MacBook Pros. It's like those machines, you're starting off with a computer that's two or

00:31:00   three years old.

00:31:01   Yeah. For full price.

00:31:04   For full price. I know that I am not asking Apple to reduce their stuff, I'm not asking

00:31:10   them to pre-announce their stuff, I'm not saying that. But it's just at this point,

00:31:14   This is a rarity for them, where the entire Mac line is old.

00:31:19   You know, the Mac Pro and the Mac Mini

00:31:23   have had this problem for as long as I've been interested

00:31:26   in Apple products, that they go for hundreds and hundreds

00:31:30   and hundreds and hundreds of days,

00:31:32   if not thousands of days, without updates,

00:31:34   especially the Mac Mini.

00:31:35   That product has always kind of been in the corner, right?

00:31:39   Like it's just this thing, it is a gateway drug,

00:31:42   it's just there.

00:31:44   - Yeah, it's like a spork.

00:31:46   It's a utility item that few people care about

00:31:50   and some people love, but it's good to have it in the world.

00:31:53   - It was created at a very different time.

00:31:55   It was created for PC switches.

00:31:57   They already had all the hardware.

00:31:58   They already had their monitor

00:32:00   and their keyboard and their mouse.

00:32:01   And quite frankly, that's just not a thing anymore.

00:32:04   - No, it survived because it's useful

00:32:07   for some of Apple's customers to have

00:32:09   as a second computer or a server.

00:32:13   I mean, there are lots of reasons that it still exists.

00:32:16   And I think that if those reasons didn't exist,

00:32:18   it would have gone away.

00:32:19   There is an audience for it,

00:32:20   but it is such a small audience that it is, yeah,

00:32:24   it's updated in small ways every few years,

00:32:27   and that's fine.

00:32:30   - But it's to see the laptops in this state.

00:32:33   - In the state.

00:32:34   - Is very weird.

00:32:36   And it should be, there is nothing that calls this out more

00:32:39   then standing at the top of one of those glass staircases

00:32:44   and looking down at these tables and tables and tables

00:32:46   full of Macs with people in front of them,

00:32:48   potentially weighing up a buying decision.

00:32:50   Like that's really where it's like,

00:32:52   oh man, what are you doing?

00:32:54   - It's like you want to push through the crowd going,

00:32:56   stop, no, stop, don't, don't do it.

00:32:59   - Yeah, it felt like that.

00:33:00   - Other than the MacBook, you can buy the MacBook.

00:33:02   I think buy the MacBook, it's fine.

00:33:04   I think you could buy that

00:33:05   because it was updated in the spring, it's fine.

00:33:07   - But yeah, even if it gets updated in a couple of weeks,

00:33:09   that one's still pretty much fine.

00:33:11   - Yeah.

00:33:12   - It's not gonna be, yeah.

00:33:13   If they updated it in a couple of weeks,

00:33:14   it wouldn't be that much better than the current MacBook.

00:33:16   It would just be, it's a MacBook.

00:33:18   It's fine.

00:33:19   But the others, all the others, basically,

00:33:23   I had this, I was sitting in for Leo Laporte

00:33:25   on his radio show, his Colin show.

00:33:28   - Oh, I forgot to watch that.

00:33:30   - I'm sure they archive of it.

00:33:33   And it was, you know, it was me

00:33:36   and the home theater geek guy.

00:33:37   So we're like, if you've got Apple or home theater questions,

00:33:40   call in, but one guy called in and he's like,

00:33:43   I really want to get a new Apple laptop,

00:33:45   what are my options?

00:33:45   And I walked through them and he was like, yeah,

00:33:47   I think for my uses, I really want the MacBook Pro.

00:33:50   I said, well, here's what you do.

00:33:51   Don't buy one until they announce new ones

00:33:54   because they're really old.

00:33:55   And it was like, that was what I need to,

00:33:58   that's how I need to express this at this point is wait.

00:34:01   You just have to wait for all of these things.

00:34:03   So, you know, I would imagine that if Apple does

00:34:07   a Mac event and it's mostly about that Macbook Pro. They will probably also

00:34:12   update everything that except maybe the MacBook that would be my my gut feeling

00:34:17   is that if it's a Mac event they're going to tell you how great Sierra is

00:34:21   again just to remind you they're going to talk about the MacBook Pro and yeah

00:34:27   maybe there's a maybe that 13-inch MacBook Air / MacBook / something else

00:34:33   is the other product that they talk about there. And then they mentioned that

00:34:37   the Mac Pro gets updated, the Mac Mini maybe gets updated, and the iMacs are

00:34:41   very popular computers and they have gotten updated the last two

00:34:44   years this time of year. So another speed boost for them. If there's a product that

00:34:52   brings Touch ID to the iMac, like a keyboard with Touch ID or something like

00:34:58   that, which has not been rumored, but I do wonder about that, if that might be part

00:35:02   of this story is an accessory for, unless it's built into the iMac itself, but something

00:35:09   like that for the iMac would be kind of an interesting thing to see too. Yeah, I can

00:35:14   imagine this event. I'm gonna, maybe I'm wishing it into existence here, I don't know, but

00:35:20   I feel like one of the last couple of Tuesdays in October that, you know, hopefully we'll

00:35:26   get an invite and it'll be a nice smaller crowd, people who care about what's going

00:35:32   on with the Mac, which is nice. I'd like to go back to the Mac, so to speak.

00:35:37   Speaking of which, this episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Boom2 from Global Delight,

00:35:43   which is a lovely little Mac app. We all use our Macs for different purposes. Some of us

00:35:46   use it professionally for creative stuff, maybe for designing. Others maybe stick to

00:35:53   daily usage like Netflix and YouTube, just consuming media. But one feature that all

00:35:57   of these types of things depend on is the use of the system's volume. So we've all found

00:36:02   times where I think we just need a little bit more from what our Mac can output. We

00:36:08   like to have our favourite music louder, we maybe wish that our movies sounded a little

00:36:12   bit crisper and we also want our Skype call audios like this to be more enhanced. Well

00:36:17   Boom 2 by Global Delight does exactly this. Boom 2 is a small yet powerful app that enhances

00:36:24   the volume of your Mac. When you install Boom 2 it will automatically calibrate itself to

00:36:30   your systems audio, and whenever any audio comes out of your mac, it will boost it to

00:36:34   perfection. Even the most feeble of sounds are amplified to the best of their possible

00:36:38   range. Boom 2 promises an immersive and crystal clear audio experience. It works across your

00:36:43   entire system, so be it when you're using editing software or browsing the web, the

00:36:48   volume will get intelligently boosted when you need it. The app smartly tunes itself

00:36:52   to the perfect highs and lows and boosts the volume to the best suited range. Global Delight

00:36:57   believes that Boom 2 is something that there's simply no going back from.

00:37:02   Boom 2 also comes with amazing audio effects which are available as in app purchases as

00:37:06   well. The effects blend beautifully with the audio that you're listening to and create

00:37:09   an addictive audio environment. Above all of this, Boom 2 also lets you play around

00:37:14   with the output of its customisable equalisers letting you tweak your own output to your

00:37:19   heart's content. I remember when I was a MacBook Air owner Jason, I had an 11" MacBook Air

00:37:24   for many years, Boom was absolutely indispensable to me because I couldn't hear a thing coming

00:37:33   out of those speakers. And I used to use Boom to great effect to be able to watch and consume

00:37:39   any media.

00:37:40   Yeah, that was, we did a Mac World Best of Show about it because it was very impressive

00:37:45   to get good, you know, much louder sound out of speakers that were not very good at it.

00:37:53   So if you want to be immersed into an audio experience like never before, go to boomformac.com

00:37:58   that's B O O M F O R M A C dot com. The app comes with a 7 day free trial which lets you

00:38:03   use the entire apps including all of the effects. Happy booming. Thank you so much to Global

00:38:08   Delight for supporting this show and Relay FM.

00:38:11   Boop.

00:38:12   Alright, so let's talk about messages shall we? You wrote a nice little post on 6colors

00:38:18   about some of the trouble with messages from a usability perspective.

00:38:24   Right, I mean, my point is not that I've written and talked about the fact that I really like

00:38:30   the features in the new iMessage, you know, stickers, new messages stuff. I like it. Stickers

00:38:37   and lasers and all that stuff. It's fun, people can complain about it, but it's fun and people

00:38:42   like sending stuff like that. That's just, people like having fun when they're sending

00:38:47   messages to each other. Not all people, no, we hear from people who don't like fun things,

00:38:52   and that's fine. You don't have to use those features. But my bigger point was I love that

00:38:59   Apple dumped all of this stuff into their apps, especially on iOS. I wish they had done

00:39:05   more of it on the Mac. But I love that they said, "Okay, we're bringing the fun. We're

00:39:10   putting all the stuff in there. We're just going to pour it all in." What I don't love

00:39:14   is that it is, on the interface standpoint,

00:39:17   from the usability standpoint, it's a mess.

00:39:20   It's like it's not, once you know how to use messages,

00:39:25   you can use all of those features fairly easily,

00:39:27   but you have to know how to use it,

00:39:30   and the idea that you have to sort of like discover

00:39:32   all of the complex secrets of your messaging app

00:39:35   seems a little counterproductive to me.

00:39:39   - So I would like to make a similar opening statement,

00:39:42   and I love the new iMessage. I really like that it's bringing more conversations for

00:39:49   me from other places, from other apps back into it because it's so good and I'm having

00:39:54   a lot of fun talking to people in it. Like I really love the stickers. I actually really

00:39:58   like the effects because they're fun, kind of silly and sticky in the way that like they're

00:40:03   making me want to stay within the application and use it more. I love all the rich previews,

00:40:08   the rich media previews like previewing tweets,

00:40:10   previewing like different posts.

00:40:11   I love all of that stuff.

00:40:13   It means you don't have to keep clicking backwards

00:40:14   and forwards between applications.

00:40:16   And like all of these things have been a much needed change

00:40:20   for iMessage to make it kind of a real 2016

00:40:23   internet aware messaging platform.

00:40:26   But there are issues and it's mostly around the fact

00:40:29   that how you mentioned pouring it all in.

00:40:32   They didn't change messages.

00:40:35   They just bolted all of these features

00:40:37   to the existing applications. And this always creates issues when you do something like

00:40:42   this. And I can see why they did it the way that they did, because they wanted to kind

00:40:46   of add these things into the familiar environment. But in doing that, things are really hidden

00:40:52   and complicated. And your post kind of breaks down a few of them, so I thought we'd touch

00:40:56   on them. So the first one being the little blue up send arrow, which just in and of itself

00:41:03   makes no sense as a glyph.

00:41:05   Yeah, it's, it's you get used to it and you start to realize that's what you're doing,

00:41:10   but I have yet to encounter somebody who's upgraded to iOS 10.

00:41:15   This includes everybody in my family and this actually includes me because by the time I installed iOS 10 beta,

00:41:20   I had forgotten the detail of that from the demo at the at the developers conference and you're sitting there and you're going,

00:41:28   what do I do now?

00:41:30   Like you type a message and you're like, how do I send this?

00:41:34   And it's just, it used to be a thing that said send, right?

00:41:38   And now there's an up arrow and you can get used to it, but it's not obvious.

00:41:42   And it's sort of like, it starts there where you're, you need to intuit what

00:41:48   between the gray rectangular box with a, uh, uh, kind of like a

00:41:54   carrot pointing to the right.

00:41:56   And then you've got a blue circular box with an arrow pointing up.

00:42:02   And I would also say you're using two different kinds of pointers here in two different box shapes,

00:42:08   a circle and a rectangle. I also find that weird. But anyway, that's what's going on here.

00:42:14   It's less obvious than it was before, and everybody seems a little stymied by it when

00:42:21   they first see it. And then something that I find really weird is that it is on 3D Touch-enabled

00:42:27   devices you 3D touch this arrow to get to the effects, you know, like to the lasers

00:42:33   and the confetti and all that stuff. On non-3D touch devices you long press to get it, but

00:42:39   on 3D touch devices you can't long press to get it.

00:42:42   Yeah, right. Just 3D touch, lazy person, it says. Push harder!

00:42:49   But my biggest issue with this is that you 3D touch, you swipe up while still holding

00:42:54   holding down to choose your effect. You let go, and then you still have to press send.

00:42:59   When I let go, it should send.

00:43:02   Right, because you've done that in one swift movement to get to that point. You're showing

00:43:07   very clear preference for that. You want to let go and have it send, and instead it just

00:43:12   takes you back and then you tap and then it goes.

00:43:15   Every time feels like it's broken to me.

00:43:18   I heard from several people when I mentioned offhandedly that you long press on the arrow

00:43:23   to get those effects who had no idea. Right? Because that's even more. I mean, 3D Touch

00:43:30   in general is a not-discoverable feature, and you have to just push on things hard and

00:43:36   see what happens. And Long Press is similar. I mean, it's good that those are there. I

00:43:42   advocated for that, that you gotta have an alternative to 3D Touch for people who can't

00:43:46   do it. But behind that arrow, I think that there are not a lot of people expecting that

00:43:51   there's a whole category of effects because remember there's still the gray

00:43:54   thing pointing right that's over there that reveals a whole bunch of effects.

00:44:00   So I think people assume that that's what's available to them once they

00:44:03   explore

00:44:04   and don't understand that beneath that that send arrow which

00:44:08   also is scary because if you don't do it right you just sent a message.

00:44:13   Which I think people are reluctant

00:44:16   to press the arrow if they are not done with what they're doing. Even if you're going through

00:44:22   the arrow, not sending it because instead you're picking an effect. Yeah.

00:44:29   >> The handwriting keyboard is weird. I completely agree with you that it is not important enough

00:44:35   for a software keyboard key and it's not important enough for automatically switching to when

00:44:40   you put your phone in landscape. >> Yeah, plus it's unlike any other interaction

00:44:45   in messages is that on the iPad you get this ink button on your keyboard and then on the

00:44:50   iPhone you don't and the only indication that you can do hand inky handwriting in messages

00:44:55   is if you turn your phone sideways and then that's the interface for it and how do you

00:45:00   discover that why is it completely different interaction from all the other effects. I

00:45:07   don't know. Also there are two we'll get to it. But also there are two different things

00:45:12   where you can use your finger to draw messages to people.

00:45:16   - Digital touch.

00:45:17   - Right, they behave completely differently

00:45:20   and are located in different places,

00:45:23   and I don't really understand that decision either.

00:45:26   - Digital touch on iOS devices

00:45:28   is flat out inscrutable to me.

00:45:30   - Yeah, no, it's baffling.

00:45:31   I mean, it's so baffling that if you tap,

00:45:33   they had the little animated, like,

00:45:35   trying to tell you what happens,

00:45:37   which itself is inscrutable.

00:45:38   The, you know, if you, you know,

00:45:41   they've got these like three, it's a strip of like three icons explaining to you what they are and they animate to say like if you put two fingers you get a heart and you put one finger down and you get a fireball or whatever it is.

00:45:52   But even that's so confusing that if you tap on that animated little chart, it brings up a full screen bit of documentation explaining to you how to use messages for digital, how to use digital touch basically.

00:46:06   Why was this the only part of Messages that got any documentation inside of the application?

00:46:11   I don't know.

00:46:13   Because you can argue that Apple wouldn't give you a splash screen when you open Messages,

00:46:19   like a little tour, even though that's the way to do these things.

00:46:24   If what you're going to do is take an existing UI, put these features into it, the way that

00:46:28   you tell people about them is by actually showing them.

00:46:32   Full screen, little tour, this is how you do it.

00:46:35   kind of the way you do it but it's very unlikely for Apple to do something like that, it's

00:46:38   very unlikely for many developers to do something like that because it's kind of admitting that

00:46:43   these things aren't intuitive.

00:46:45   Yeah, which they aren't.

00:46:48   So why did they do this for Digital Touch but nothing else? They've admitted Digital

00:46:51   Touch wasn't intuitive. It's strange to me. Also, the heartbeat doesn't make any sense

00:46:56   because it's not a real heartbeat. The taps don't make any sense because they don't hit

00:46:59   you on the wrist. That's why it only really works on the watch. The only part of this

00:47:03   digital touch thing that was kind of needed, well not needed but is kind of any good really

00:47:08   in my opinion, is taking a picture and drawing on the picture. That's cool. Everything else,

00:47:13   I don't get it. The fireball one, what does that even do? It doesn't even do anything.

00:47:17   It's just like this little orb.

00:47:19   Tim Cynova Yeah, that's, my son is sending me fireballs.

00:47:22   That's what he does. Every now and then I just get a fireball from him. And I think

00:47:26   it's just because that's his, he knows to put down the one finger. Also, we haven't

00:47:31   mentioned yet that there's the, Digital Touch starts in the small area but if you tap the

00:47:37   right thing it expands and you get like full screen Digital Touch canvas. I don't know

00:47:44   who thinks Digital Touch is a great idea at Apple. On the Apple Watch it was silly but

00:47:51   a little bit fun and oversold and overemphasized in the interface and they've de-emphasized

00:47:57   it in watchOS 3. But now here it comes in messages being emphasized like this.

00:48:03   Yeah, it's like two teams got different memos. The watch team got told to de-emphasize it,

00:48:08   then the iMessage team got told to emphasize it.

00:48:11   Bring it up! Yeah, it's, uh, right. And again, it's the second feature that lets you draw

00:48:18   in messages. So take your pick based on whether you want ink on paper or whether you want

00:48:24   like a light colored thing on a dark background which is there because of the OLED screen

00:48:28   on the Apple Watch and they've imported it from the Apple Watch. I don't know. So that's,

00:48:32   yeah, yeah, it's not great. You're right, drawing on pictures is like the best part

00:48:36   of that.

00:48:37   Mhmm, which I like. I like that part. I think that's cool.

00:48:39   It's basically markup.

00:48:40   But it's got that kind of shiny neon, like I like all of that. I like that. I think that's

00:48:44   cool but I think a lot of the tapping effects, you're best served using stickers for that

00:48:50   stuff as opposed to the taps.

00:48:53   Now the taps are really there because you're so limited on the Apple Watch with what you

00:48:57   can do and so then bring that over to the iPhone, you know, other than that it is Apple

00:49:02   Watch compatibility, I guess, so that if you send a digital touch to somebody who's using

00:49:06   an Apple Watch they'll get the taps and things along with a phony heartbeat but…

00:49:10   This continues the chain of perplexity for me though because it's like, okay, so you

00:49:16   did this because you want to have parity between the Apple Watch and the phones right? So it's

00:49:25   not just the phones that can send and receive this digital touch stuff, so the watches that

00:49:30   can send and receive this digital touch stuff, you put it on the phones as well so then they

00:49:33   mix over and then you can kind of, okay, alright, I see where you're coming from, like you want

00:49:38   to make sure that like all of your devices can kind of interact with this stuff, but

00:49:43   about the Mac in anything because the Mac cannot do any of the stuff that iOS can do.

00:49:50   So like you felt it was important enough to put digital touch in the iPhone so that there

00:49:55   was another device to communicate digital touch stuff with the watch. But then none

00:49:59   of the stickers, none of the apps, none of the digital stuff is in the Mac. So that can't

00:50:03   communicate correctly with the iPhone. It's like this weird disconnect stuff, which always

00:50:09   feels to me like as a consequence of Apple's secrecy, that like these teams don't get

00:50:14   to work together properly. That's the way I always think of it in my head. I could be

00:50:17   completely wrong, but that's how I see it.

00:50:20   You'd think there would be one Messages team though, on all platforms.

00:50:24   You would. I mean, that's all I have to say. I have no idea. Yes, you would think

00:50:29   that, but some of the features seem to argue otherwise at times.

00:50:33   So we talk about the Message App Store, that's another challenge.

00:50:37   Let me quote from your article here.

00:50:40   Here's how to direct someone to the Messages App Store.

00:50:43   Tap the grey greater than sign, then the App Store icon, then the four circles icon in

00:50:49   the bottom left corner of the screen, then the icon with a plus symbol that's labelled

00:50:53   "Store".

00:50:54   See?

00:50:55   It's that simple.

00:50:56   That's simple.

00:50:57   It's a nightmare.

00:50:58   That is a nightmare piece of term that I've heard people use recently that I like, "Mystery

00:51:03   Meet".

00:51:04   - It's for me the interface, yeah.

00:51:05   - And the idea that there's no way to know it,

00:51:07   you kind of just have to guess it.

00:51:10   - I don't think we're saying that this is easy stuff.

00:51:13   How do you add an interface for all of these features?

00:51:15   But as somebody looking at the end product,

00:51:18   it's hard to approve of what got done.

00:51:22   It's hard for me to say, yeah,

00:51:23   this is a good way to approach this

00:51:26   because it seems so scattershot.

00:51:27   It's not like they buried everything

00:51:29   under that little gray arrow thingy.

00:51:34   they buried some of the things under there and some of them are not under

00:51:37   there and some of them are one level under there and some of them are two or

00:51:40   three levels under there. So it's all over the place. People are

00:51:45   really excited about stickers and yet the access to stickers,

00:51:48   if you want to get stickers through that interface,

00:51:52   you kind of have to go deep down in because you have to go past your

00:51:56   existing stickers to get to the App Store to get more stickers.

00:51:59   Having that weird kind of like alternate App Store,

00:52:03   I'm not sure that's a good idea. I'm not sure that what they should not...

00:52:07   Maybe what they should have is just a button that takes you to the App Store...

00:52:11   App.

00:52:12   And shows you stickers.

00:52:14   I don't know. Having that little store without throwing you out is kind of nice though.

00:52:19   Because all you're seeing there is those apps. If you went to the App Store, it might be a bit...

00:52:26   trickier.

00:52:27   There's nothing stopping them from having a button somewhere that just opens the App Store app

00:52:31   and shows you the sticker section and you're looking at stickers and it's just the same as

00:52:36   you're seeing but you're not inside messages anymore and it just goes back there it's just

00:52:41   it's a little weird because you end up in this kind of strange modal app store inside messages

00:52:46   that doesn't behave quite like the regular app store and then there's also like the manage apps

00:52:52   icon having having a second class of apps at all is strange that these are these are apps but they

00:52:59   they sort of aren't apps and they show up in a different app launcher than the regular

00:53:03   app launcher, which I understand why, but it's just conceptually it's a difficult thing.

00:53:08   But I just, it takes a long way. Somebody was like, "Oh, stickers are cool, how do I

00:53:13   get stickers?" and I thought about how to explain to them how to get there and I realized,

00:53:16   wow, that's a long way to go to explain how you get to the sticker app store, basically.

00:53:21   I want to talk about stickers as well now, because there are some things here. Like,

00:53:27   I wished that stickers synced across platforms.

00:53:31   So like the stickers that you downloaded, the sticker packs,

00:53:34   I would love to be able to have them sync and install automatically without

00:53:39   needing to have all apps sync.

00:53:41   I'm sure that if I had all purchased apps sync across devices,

00:53:45   maybe it would show up or I bet maybe it would then just show up in the store

00:53:49   and I'd have to manually install them on each device anyway.

00:53:52   But like I wish that they just synced across devices and their positions,

00:53:56   So what I'm finding myself doing is every few days, I'll open one of my iPads, I'll

00:54:01   go into the store, I'll go to my purchases, I'll download all of them, because I have

00:54:05   to go to the App Store purchases, not the messages App Store purchases, so to install

00:54:10   them all.

00:54:11   Then their positions aren't the same as on my other devices, so I either change them

00:54:14   or just leave them.

00:54:16   And that's kind of frustrating because it frustrates me because I really like to use

00:54:23   them.

00:54:24   some of my favorites but I wish that this just worked better. I wish that also when

00:54:30   you didn't get to the limit like those little kind of dots at the bottom that it then starts

00:54:36   to sneak onto the other UI which is clearly a bug that never got fixed but everybody encountered

00:54:40   on day one because there's so many sticker packs. I had no idea that you could rotate stickers and

00:54:46   change their sizes so like you drag up and then just use another finger to like turn them around

00:54:51   or make them bigger. I was maybe using messages for nearly two months before I knew this.

00:54:56   I was just like, one day, I think it was you, sent me a sticker upside down, and I was like,

00:55:01   how did you do that?

00:55:02   I sent you Skeletor upside down.

00:55:05   And Easter Egg, that conversation I've discovered today is in the App Store screenshot for the

00:55:12   Incomparable Sticker Pack.

00:55:14   It is.

00:55:15   The conversation that me and you had where I found out I could turn stickers upside down

00:55:18   is the conversation is you then used it as the thing which I just found out about today

00:55:23   whilst going through the app store to pick out some of my favorite sticker packs to put in the

00:55:26   show notes. I saw that you did that and it really made me laugh. So yeah I wished that it was better

00:55:34   I don't know if it will ever get better because they wouldn't make any significant changes to

00:55:41   iOS 11 and then by that point everybody's just used to it so maybe by then it's like a moot point

00:55:46   anyway but I wish that they would have done more to kind of maybe redo messages. Our phones

00:55:53   are so big now, there's so much of that stuff that they could have put in a bar above the

00:55:58   message field. Like how Facebook does it. It can get a bit messy but Facebook just has

00:56:05   this bar which allows you to quickly get to all of your apps and stickers and emoji and

00:56:09   stuff. I kind of wish they would have just done that. There are a bunch of applications

00:56:12   even on the iPhone where Apple does this stuff, and like so many developers do this stuff,

00:56:17   add that like app-specific keyboard row, I really wish that they would have done something

00:56:22   like that.

00:56:23   It would have been, they would have been able to get way more buttons in there, they could

00:56:27   have split up stickers and apps into their own little trays, it would have been really

00:56:30   nice.

00:56:31   Yeah, I kind of feel like what we're really saying here is that obviously the people who

00:56:36   built Messages were put to work adding all these features.

00:56:41   And by and large, we have issues maybe with digital touch, but by and large, it's not

00:56:46   like I have problems with the features. I think the features are fun. I love the idea

00:56:50   that they wanted to make it more fun. But it does feel a little bit like they had more

00:56:56   time to get the features right than to get how they all work together seamlessly in one

00:57:01   app right. And that is what feels like a hodgepodge to me, which is why my story is something

00:57:06   like "Great Features, bad usability." It's like, you know, yes, but also no.

00:57:12   But honestly, it's probably the way it should be done. Get the features right, and then

00:57:17   find a way to put them in. And then it may just be that you run out of time and you just

00:57:20   kind of have to put them where they need to go. Because it's arguably more important that

00:57:24   the features work than them be easily findable. I don't know.

00:57:28   I feel like that Digital Touch feature shouldn't have shipped, but...

00:57:31   Yeah, yeah. I mean, I question its existence in general.

00:57:35   Touch is somebody's baby and that person is high up enough that they can, against maybe

00:57:44   any people telling them otherwise, just keep putting it in there.

00:57:48   Yeah, because I would rather have like a sketch feature that maybe has colors and stuff and

00:57:53   not just the ink and that also lets you draw on pictures if you want. I mean, having a

00:57:58   single feature that lets you do that, but instead we've got kind of the ink feature

00:58:02   and then we've got the separate digital touch feature that's complicated and you've got

00:58:06   all the finger gestures and yeah.

00:58:08   The pure maximum that it should have gone to was just exactly what the watch has because

00:58:13   the phone has more, right? Like it has hearts and heartbreak and fireballs. They should

00:58:18   never have been there. I don't know why they're there.

00:58:22   Reasons unknown. Jason, can I run through some of my favorite sticker packs?

00:58:25   Yes, let's get positive here.

00:58:27   'cause I wanna bookend this with talking about

00:58:30   probably my favorite iOS feature of the last two years,

00:58:33   which is the inclusion of stickers,

00:58:34   because they are so much fun,

00:58:36   and they make my messages way better,

00:58:39   and it's like, emoji who?

00:58:40   I've got stickers now, right?

00:58:42   I love the Stamp Pack by Illuminated Bits.

00:58:46   There'll be links to all of these in the show notes.

00:58:48   The Stamp Pack is basically just tons and tons of stamps

00:58:51   that you can put over things, including Firelaw Radar,

00:58:54   which is a hilarious stamp.

00:58:56   The extra finer by a pen addict listener and aficionado, Lee Reyes, she's basically a bunch

00:59:04   of beautifully illustrated, which she did, found in pen and found in pen related stickers.

00:59:10   Of course.

00:59:12   There is the ragtag classic pack, which is a bunch of animated emoji kind of like things,

00:59:19   which I really like.

00:59:20   The best one there, they have a mic drop, an animated mic drop sticker, which is great.

00:59:24   Grammar Snob, which I love because I get to correct my own grammar with all the messages

00:59:29   errors that I make.

00:59:32   Aardman Face Bomb, which is hilarious.

00:59:34   It's just, Aardman animation has created a bunch of eyes and faces, like mouths and stuff,

00:59:38   so you can put them over other people's pictures, which is good.

00:59:43   This is one of the great things about every time anybody ever sends a picture to you or

00:59:48   in any message these days, it just gets immediately sticker bombed.

00:59:53   The Emojipedia flag stickers pack by Jeremy Burge of Emojipedia because it has the Hello

00:59:59   Internet flag and the flaggy flag. So it has Nail and Gear and flaggy flag. I love that

01:00:04   because, mostly because I love sending the flaggy flag sticker to Grey. It's effectively

01:00:09   the only reason that I like that this thing exists. Sticker Pals which is a ton of stickers.

01:00:15   It can be a little bit confusing to work through this application sometimes but the David Lanham

01:00:19   animations is so good and the stickers are so good that it's worth it.

01:00:24   David Lanham did a bunch of icons for me when we did the Mac user blog at Macworld that

01:00:30   I loved. I love his work so I was happy to see that he did this sticker pack.

01:00:34   Me too. The hipster sticker pack because of course there's like a little character that

01:00:39   looks like me and I can put beards and top hats and things on everybody. And of course

01:00:43   the incomparable sticker pack. Oh yes well that's the finest of all the sticker packs

01:00:48   because I swept out all of the art that we've collected over the years and just dumped it

01:00:53   into a sticker pack that you can get for free. So if you want to send Skeletor, you can now.

01:00:58   Or the shame burrito, you can do that. Or glenning.

01:01:02   So I will say at this point, and we've mentioned it before, there are relay stickers in the

01:01:09   It is coming.

01:01:10   I've seen them.

01:01:11   They are, they're in testing right now because it's part of our application.

01:01:17   We're not just releasing a pack and we're trying to do some cool stuff with that.

01:01:22   So they're –

01:01:23   Yeah.

01:01:24   You may be asking yourself how does one test stickers?

01:01:25   The answer is very carefully.

01:01:26   Well, no, I just send them all to you.

01:01:29   Yeah, that's – okay.

01:01:32   So yeah, I'm very excited about all stickers and of course our stickers as well.

01:01:38   Mm-hmm.

01:01:39   Mr Jason Snell, I believe that it is time to take a break because it is Ask Upgrade

01:01:45   time.

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01:03:58   Okay, Jason Snell, it's time for some Ask Upgrade.

01:04:02   No lasers. Yay! No, I already did the lasers. Okay.

01:04:07   There you go. The lasers have now landed. Thank you.

01:04:11   Brett wants to know, "Can the iPhone 7 Plus use the MacBook adorable USB-C to lightning

01:04:17   charger or the iPad Pro charger for fast charging?" Not that I've noticed, and from things that

01:04:24   I've seen online, and I don't have an accurate source for this so don't quote me, that it

01:04:28   would have been checked to see if this device was capable of USB 3 speeds and transfer,

01:04:35   it's not. And it currently, under the 12.9 iPad Pro, is the only iOS device that can

01:04:41   take advantage of the USB-C power and transfer speed.

01:04:44   Yep, it seems so. That seems to be the case. That hasn't come to the rest of the product

01:04:49   line.

01:04:50   Which is weird.

01:04:52   I agree. I wonder about that sometimes. I wonder about the iPad Pro, where they're going

01:04:59   with it, and I occasionally wonder to myself if they might put more ports on it at some

01:05:03   point which I know is wacky for an iOS device but I don't know could you put a USB-C port

01:05:10   on an iPad Pro in addition to lightning?

01:05:11   At this point I think they should, honestly.

01:05:13   I think that would be great right because then they're saying this is a real you know

01:05:17   a real computer that can be used with with more peripherals and it's Pro that's one of

01:05:21   the things that makes it Pro I think that might be an interesting choice for them to

01:05:25   have it be have it have the same ports as the as the MacBook.

01:05:30   Casper wanted to know, "Now that the iPhone has a non-button button that vibrates, do

01:05:35   you think it will come to the iPads?"

01:05:37   Now I want to put something out here and I may be thinking of this Jason, as like the

01:05:45   MacBook Adorables keyboard.

01:05:47   That keyboard has not yet found its way to other products.

01:05:51   Because that keyboard is needed there for other reasons, like that little butterfly

01:05:56   super shallow keyboard.

01:05:57   Apple are going to continue to, and they still have, make keyboards with more depth of travel.

01:06:05   I wonder if the non-button button, the Taptic Home button, will only remain on the iPhone

01:06:12   because it's needed there for space reasons and that the iPads that don't even have Taptic

01:06:19   motors in them will continue to have a physical home button.

01:06:27   I think it's possible. I think the question is why does that non-moving

01:06:34   home button exist on the iPhone 7? It's possible that this is the only time

01:06:39   we'll see that product because if there's a if it's all screen next time

01:06:43   the home button may completely change its appearance again. So do you need to

01:06:47   replace the physical button on the iPad or is it good enough? Is it not? You

01:06:51   don't need the space, you don't need the you don't you're not worried about the

01:06:54   fact that it's a moving, I think, what's the cost of it and is there a benefit?

01:06:59   And I'm not sure whether the iPads have that benefit or not.

01:07:03   I'm sure they, Apple knows how to make it now, right?

01:07:05   So they feel like there's a direct benefit to doing it, but I'm not sure they're trying

01:07:09   to waterproof the iPads and all of that.

01:07:14   I think Taptic Engine is a good question on the iPad, right?

01:07:17   I mean the iPhone 7 has all those taptic features all over the

01:07:24   interface now and the iPad has none of those and it also has no 3D touch and

01:07:28   part of the problem is a much larger device you've got to do more work in

01:07:33   terms of vibration and in terms of reading the screen for 3D touch kind of

01:07:40   stuff and so I think it's a really good question of how far do the iPad and

01:07:45   iPhone diverge in terms of features and does Apple care about bringing those

01:07:51   features to the iPad or does Apple say look you know Taptic stuff is fun but

01:07:57   it's not an iPad feature like whether that's because they don't want to bother

01:08:00   or whether that's because they feel like the products are used differently and

01:08:04   they don't have they don't have to have those things. It'll be interesting to see

01:08:08   what happens there because that really is a choice that Apple has to make. They

01:08:11   can keep them in lockstep even if it's delayed by a year or whatever but they can say "okay,

01:08:17   new iPads next spring and they've got 3D touch or they've got the Taptic Engine or they've

01:08:21   got the non-moving home button" and will they do that or will they instead say "no, iPads

01:08:26   don't do that, just iPhones" and here's why.

01:08:29   - Yes, I just wonder if you could really do Taptic on a device that big. That's what I

01:08:35   wonder about.

01:08:36   hard, right? I mean, I'm sure you could, but you might have to do like multiple engines

01:08:42   in different parts and have them, you know, move simultaneously in order to get that effect.

01:08:48   It would be--

01:08:49   putting them in the corners, maybe.

01:08:51   Yeah, a different engineering challenge for sure. Similar to what we talked about with

01:08:55   3D Touch, where if you're reading the strain across that, you know, that big screen, comparatively

01:09:00   giant screen, it's a harder trick than doing 3D touch on the smaller screen. Not that they

01:09:07   can't do it, but it's more work and do they want to do it, is that a priority for them

01:09:12   in terms of the iPad.

01:09:13   David Pembroke Daniel has asked, "Now that you guys seem

01:09:15   to be using iOS more than ever, what email client have you settled on?" Jason?

01:09:20   Jason

01:09:20   Well, I am not happy with my--we're going to talk about this in a forthcoming episode

01:09:25   of Free Agents. I'm not happy with my email setup on iOS right now. I don't have a--I'm

01:09:32   not using any of the fancy, you know, defer your email for later kind of mail processing

01:09:37   features right now. I've tried a bunch of them. None of them really worked for me and

01:09:41   I've gone back to kind of plain vanilla mail. So, on iOS, I'm just using Apple Mail right

01:09:46   now. And part of that was because I wanted to spend time with Apple Mail and iOS 10 every

01:09:49   time you do a new version, you know, I feel like it's worth doing that. And it's simple

01:09:54   and it's reliable in a way that the other apps that I was using were not so reliable

01:09:59   with, and since I'm using, basically, Gmail on the Mac, it seems like the best solution

01:10:06   for now. But I may try something else at some point, but I've just reverted to default and

01:10:11   I'm using Apple Mail.

01:10:12   I use airmail and I've been very happy with airmail.

01:10:16   It has some rough edges in places, but it's incredibly powerful.

01:10:25   And I'm able to get a lot of stuff done on my iOS devices in a really interesting way.

01:10:32   A lot of the stuff that it can do with integrating with other applications is really great.

01:10:36   I love some of the notification features that it has.

01:10:41   It is a powerful application, but sometimes its power can kind of shake it off course

01:10:48   a little bit. But I'm confident in the Air Mail team to continue making the app better

01:10:54   as they have been over the last few months. So, big fan of Air Mail.

01:10:58   My challenge is that I'm very happy using MailPlane, which is essentially Gmail in a

01:11:04   Mac frame on the Mac and I do a lot I do the bulk of my email on the Mac and so

01:11:11   using an iOS app that has a bunch of features that really require you to use

01:11:15   their Mac app you see that Ml has them but I don't do them look I don't do any

01:11:21   of the snoozing stuff it has or anything like that

01:11:24   well I think those are the features that would make me want to switch so the

01:11:29   reason that I stopped doing it was because mailbox went away and when that

01:11:33   went away I realized that I need to stay as close to dealing with my emails the way it

01:11:38   should be dealt with everywhere because when mailbox went away I lost a lot of features.

01:11:45   The one thing that I really wish could come back is the ability to, like that airmail

01:11:49   we'll put in there and I should ask them if they've ever thought about it, is the ability

01:11:53   to rearrange messages in your inbox. Oh I miss that so much. I used to be able to do

01:11:58   that with mailbox just like to move them around. That was my favorite thing. But yeah, I decided

01:12:05   to like to stop doing a lot of that snoozing stuff because it keeps you within the platform

01:12:09   and if the platform goes away you're kind of stuck. So I stopped, I've just stopped

01:12:13   doing it and I'm trying to just deal with my email as it should be really.

01:12:17   I may play around with Google inbox at some point but we'll see.

01:12:22   I use some non-inbox stuff.

01:12:25   Like non-Gmail stuff, I should say.

01:12:30   All right, Carlos has written in to ask,

01:12:35   what stock iOS apps have you deleted from your phones?

01:12:39   None.

01:12:40   (laughs)

01:12:41   As now this feature has been released,

01:12:43   I wonder why they even did it.

01:12:44   I think they only did it because people think

01:12:46   that it should be done.

01:12:47   It doesn't really do anything.

01:12:48   Like, I just have all those apps in a folder.

01:12:51   the fact like removing default apps is not the thing,

01:12:56   it is changing the default, that's the thing.

01:12:58   Because if I remove, I don't know, mail,

01:13:03   I just can't open the mail app

01:13:05   and I can't use any send to links anymore.

01:13:08   You know, like if I remove stocks, okay, it's gone now,

01:13:11   but like I never see it anyway

01:13:12   'cause I don't keep it on my home screen.

01:13:14   So it's kind of a pointless feature to me really

01:13:18   at this point, like what are you gonna do?

01:13:20   like, "Oh, free up that space." It's not doing that.

01:13:23   - It doesn't actually do that.

01:13:25   - I don't know why.

01:13:26   You know, I just, now I can't really understand

01:13:28   why they did it other than to appease people

01:13:30   that thought that they needed it.

01:13:32   - Yeah.

01:13:32   - Which was us at the time.

01:13:34   At the time, we were like, "Great, we can finally, oh."

01:13:38   Yeah, it was kind of, it quickly fizzled out

01:13:40   was the thing that I wanted to do.

01:13:42   - I still removed stocks with prejudice.

01:13:44   I was very happy to do it. - Just for fun, right?

01:13:46   - I did that, and I actually, on my iPhone,

01:13:48   I removed calendar because I would search sometimes and get calendar instead of fantastical

01:13:56   and I don't see it now.

01:13:59   Yeah, that could be a good reason to do it, to kind of whittle down the spotlight results,

01:14:05   but I don't really have a problem with that.

01:14:07   But I can see if you're searching for events in your calendar because of your crazy system,

01:14:12   why that would be useful.

01:14:14   Gary asked, I don't know why Gary asked this, but Gary did ask this. Can you read the question

01:14:20   so I don't give away my answer?

01:14:22   Alright, Gary asks, "Is ZZ Top, the band, ZZ Top in the UK?"

01:14:32   Now I feel like Gary is trolling me, because I don't know how you couldn't just know the

01:14:39   answer to this? The band's name is not ZZ Top. The band's name is ZZ Top. Like that

01:14:44   is the band's name. You know? Like, what is the answer? You know what I mean? It's not

01:14:53   like I will pronounce, it's not like I call them like Metallica. It's Metallica, right?

01:14:58   Because that's just the band's name. Like, I know it's written out that way. But I have

01:15:07   I have no answer that is...

01:15:09   Well, if there's somebody, if there's a guy whose name is ZZ Top, like Zoroastrian Zool

01:15:17   Top, but he goes by Z period Z period because he is a, you know, he doesn't, that's a ridiculous

01:15:25   name so he doesn't go by it. I think that's the question. At what point does it go from

01:15:28   being, well, it's your name, everybody in America, you're American, everybody in America

01:15:32   calls this person ZZ Top, would you call them, are you going to make the sounds that an American

01:15:38   would make to name them or are you going to use the letters because it's really just letters

01:15:42   that you're saying.

01:15:43   Right, that is a way better question than Gary's question. The answer is I would call

01:15:47   him ZZ Top if I didn't know that he liked to be called ZZ Top.

01:15:51   Right. So, I have a related story here which is, this is always a problem and this has

01:15:56   come up I think on previous episodes here where there's a question of how you pronounce

01:16:00   things and in some cases the issue is are you pronouncing it, for me the challenge is

01:16:06   always do I pronounce it the way that they pronounce it in England, let's say, if what

01:16:13   I'm doing is basically just doing an English accent? Because I think that's one of the

01:16:18   issues is if we have the same word that you do and you say it one way and we say it in

01:16:23   another way, then if it's a name, let's say, do I affect an English accent to

01:16:30   call them the way that they're called in England, or do I just use the way

01:16:34   we pronounce that name in America? And I say this because I have a friend who--

01:16:40   it's a friend of a friend--who changed his name from P-A-U-L to P-O-L, and he did

01:16:50   this because he moved from England to the United States and didn't want to be called

01:16:54   "Paul" because in England everybody called him "Pol." So he changed the spelling of his

01:17:01   name so everybody would call him the right pronunciation of his name. I realize this

01:17:04   is extreme, but…

01:17:06   Well, yeah, this isn't unlike people that maybe come from… from… how would they

01:17:13   say it on ATP? Is it East Asia? Was that the…

01:17:17   on. Yeah, you mean the Far East? No, I don't. Yeah. I think it was East Asia, right? East

01:17:25   Asia, sure. So, people that come from East Asia, who like, just give themselves English

01:17:30   names? Yeah, oh yeah, I grew up with a guy, a Vietnamese guy, who had a, he was, he said

01:17:37   just, "Dan, call me Dan." It's like that was not his name. But, yeah. I don't know, it's

01:17:44   It's an interesting little bit of pronunciation nerdery, but yeah, I think my childhood librarian

01:17:51   was B.Z. Smith, right? That was her initials, right? I think it would be perfectly reasonable

01:17:57   for an English person to say B.Z. Smith, but if you met B.Z. Smith and were talking to

01:18:05   her, you would probably not continually refer to her as B.Z.

01:18:08   I mean I might. It sounds kind of cool.

01:18:14   Anyway. Yo what's up BZED? I like the BZED. As cool as the name is that is, is a librarian.

01:18:21   Children's librarian, yeah. I love that you went with Children's Librarian

01:18:27   for the name BZED. Wow. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Upgrade.

01:18:32   You can find our show notes for today's show over at relay.fm/upgrade/109.

01:18:39   Thanks again to Help Spot, Boom from Global Delight, Boom 2 I should say from Global Delight

01:18:45   and Ring for sponsoring this week's episode.

01:18:46   If you want to find Jason online he's over at 6colors.com.

01:18:50   You can find him on Twitter he is @jsnell on Twitter J S N E double L. I am @imike and

01:18:57   at youtube.com/mikeurley.

01:18:58   slash Myke Hurley whoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo