102: Cautionary Tale of Laptops


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM and live in Memphis, Tennessee, this is Upgrade, Episode 102. Today's show

00:00:14   is brought to you by PDF Pen from Smile and Squarespace. My name is Myke Hurley, and I

00:00:19   am joined across the table by Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:22   Hi, Myke Hurley. We're here in the home of, well, we're not in the home, not now, the

00:00:26   City of Mr. Steven Hackett, co-founder of Relay. It's Relay Birthday Week. This is the

00:00:30   second anniversary of Relay and we're coming up on the second anniversary of Upgrade. And

00:00:37   so it's a little celebration. You guys spend the week here in Memphis and I crashed the

00:00:43   party for a couple of days, which is fun.

00:00:44   Yeah, we've got some blue sky thinking to do this week about the company, you know.

00:00:48   We're really kind of burning the ocean.

00:00:49   I think we're going to whiteboard it. We're going to work it out. We're going to do some

00:00:53   Trust Falls we're gonna do some other kind of corporate brainstorming exercises we're

00:00:59   gonna build a tower out of popsicle sticks and then we're going to destroy it. We've

00:01:05   both done stuff like that over the years. I know seriously. Cool pro team building.

00:01:10   Absolutely and so Stephen Hackett is our engineer today and not present because he's totally

00:01:15   lost his voice so it's just us. So yeah it's Reel AFM's birthday this week on the 18th

00:01:20   we turn two years old, which is actually probably good

00:01:22   for our first piece of follow up.

00:01:25   We've mentioned before the Relay FM membership,

00:01:27   the Relay FM members feed is now available.

00:01:30   If you are a member, you will have gotten an email

00:01:33   about this and if you sign up in the welcome email,

00:01:38   you'll get a link to an RSS feed,

00:01:39   which will include a selection of members only content

00:01:44   over the next couple of weeks.

00:01:46   So there's some stuff out there is, as we speak today,

00:01:49   Connected and Bonanza, we have two episodes there.

00:01:52   And later on this week, we have an absolute

00:01:56   barnstormer of a special.

00:01:58   - Yeah.

00:01:59   - Where we combined Upgrade and Cortex

00:02:01   to do a text adventure.

00:02:03   Actually, at the end of the show today,

00:02:05   we put a trailer together.

00:02:06   - Oh great.

00:02:07   - I'll play out the episode of a trailer

00:02:10   so you can kind of see what you're gonna get.

00:02:12   If you are a member, you'll get this feed

00:02:14   and when this show comes out,

00:02:15   I think we're gonna post that one on Thursday.

00:02:18   But if you sign up before or after, you'll still get the feed and you'll be able to get all of them.

00:02:22   Trust me, you really, really want the Cortex upgrade special.

00:02:26   Yes, I get to be...

00:02:27   That's me acting as sort of your referee almost,

00:02:32   frustrating you and Grey in your attempts to navigate the Old West.

00:02:37   Yep, Jason is the computer and me and Grey have to work together on the adventure.

00:02:41   It's really, really fun.

00:02:44   That will be available. I'll put a trailer at the end of the show so you can kind of get a feel for what that's like.

00:02:48   You were on the talk show last week. Yeah, a little follow-out. And it was a really

00:02:53   great episode as always. I always love it when you're on that show. We had a long flight

00:02:55   so you had enough time to listen to it. But as you cross the Atlantic it was

00:02:59   another group who said to me, "Oh it's not gonna be one of those two and a half

00:03:01   hour deals." And it wasn't, it was like 220. So, you know, slightly shorter. Short show.

00:03:07   Yeah, I enjoy especially that show when I'm on long trips because it

00:03:12   fits quite nicely. But yeah, you and John are always good together. It was fun, yeah.

00:03:15   It's always always a blast to talk to him and we do I think we do all seriousness

00:03:20   intend to not talk for two and a half hours, but I I so

00:03:25   Infrequently see him I see him at Apple events and we don't we're all so busy

00:03:29   We don't get a chance to talk for very long and then we get on on Skype and it just yeah

00:03:33   it just goes because it's it's fun to talk to him and and

00:03:37   It was a good we had a good time

00:03:39   I tried very hard to not steer the conversation toward baseball as often happens because I know a lot of tech people

00:03:45   Don't want to hear about sports stuff

00:03:47   So I decided to talk about my clicky keyboard because I know that he likes clicky keyboard

00:03:51   So we talked about that for a while

00:03:52   And then of course as soon as we were done with that John brought up baseball

00:03:55   So if you don't like keyboards and baseball I suggest it's it's really less than two hour podcast

00:04:00   You can just skip over the first half hour and you'll you know

00:04:03   You'll still get us talking about Apple and other tech stuff and not the keyboards in the baseball. Hey, Jason

00:04:08   Why don't we talk about keyboards and baseball? Okay, let's do that

00:04:14   Stephen Hackett famously doesn't like baseball in his program the relay slack to react to the word baseball or the baseball emoji

00:04:21   with America's boring pastime

00:04:24   Took us to a baseball game

00:04:27   Which is an interesting my first it was a yeah, it's minor league. It's triple-a Pacific Coast League

00:04:32   It's the the Memphis Redbirds which are the affiliate of the st

00:04:36   Louis Cardinals and we went to their their ballpark and it was pouring rain at various points

00:04:41   But we were inside we were actually sort of at the bar that it's overlooking home plate right behind home plate

00:04:46   And I got to explain some baseball things to you and I got a ball and you got a ball

00:04:51   So as soon as we arrived a ball flew into the stands where we were

00:04:56   Entering and I was able to grab it

00:04:59   So now I have a baseball from my first ever baseball game

00:05:01   You were concerned that you were not allowed to pick it up

00:05:08   - And it would just land. - Stop that, Englishman.

00:05:10   - Like three kind of seats in front of me

00:05:13   and I'd look like a fool and everyone would laugh,

00:05:14   but no, you get to keep it, and now I have one,

00:05:16   and it has dirt on it and everything.

00:05:17   - It's a great souvenir of your first baseball game,

00:05:20   to have a baseball, a minor league baseball.

00:05:22   So we did that.

00:05:23   I also was admiring your, so you have,

00:05:27   and I hadn't seen it before,

00:05:28   you have the Logitech 9.7-inch Create keyboard

00:05:32   for your 9.7-inch iPad Pro.

00:05:34   - I do.

00:05:35   - And I have written a couple articles,

00:05:37   I've been focusing on the 12.9.

00:05:39   I have both models, but I use the 12.9.

00:05:42   That's sort of my iPad.

00:05:43   And so I've been focusing on keyboards for that.

00:05:46   And a lot of the keyboards of the 12.9 iPad,

00:05:50   the problem is the surface area

00:05:53   of the iPad screen is enormous, which is great.

00:05:55   It's not a problem.

00:05:56   I love that screen, but it means that any accessory

00:05:59   that is going to act as a cover and cover that screen

00:06:03   is huge and every added little bit of thickness

00:06:07   makes it bulkier. And so as a result, most of the keyboards that are made for the 12.9

00:06:13   inch Pro are kind of too much. And what I found with the smart keyboard on the 9.7 is

00:06:20   that it was much less bulky. It was a much more attractive product. And then I saw your

00:06:23   Logitech keyboard, and I don't like the Logitech Create. I think it's kind of too much for

00:06:28   the 12.9. But yours is, it's really kind of adorable. It's really great.

00:06:34   So when I first got it and I was talking about it on Connected last week I was really unsure about it

00:06:37   because it adds a lot of thickness and a lot of weight to what is a very portable device

00:06:42   but I have fallen madly in love with it.

00:06:46   The keyboard on this thing is a joy to use.

00:06:51   The smart keyboards are very practical.

00:06:55   It's a keyboard that is always attached and it works.

00:06:59   But this is an actual keyboard that I'm used to typing on. It's more akin to a MacBook

00:07:05   keyboard.

00:07:06   Yeah, but it's not aping the MacBook keyboard design like the 12.9-inch Create keyboard,

00:07:10   which I kind of appreciate, I think. And it's very typable, even though it's a much smaller

00:07:16   area that all those keys have to be jammed into. I think they did a good job. Not only

00:07:20   are they real keys, but I thought it was pretty enjoyable to type on it. They're backlit,

00:07:25   which is really nice.

00:07:26   is one of the main reasons that I'm going to be sticking with this, because I'm able

00:07:31   to use it at night. And that is a big thing for me.

00:07:33   And we were saying yesterday, you know, so often we say things for the podcast, but,

00:07:38   you know, we're actually in each other's presence, so we have conversations that are

00:07:41   not recorded. It's strange, podcasters.

00:07:43   That tends to be the same stuff that we talk about on the show anyway.

00:07:45   Yeah, it is. That's your real bonus episode, is to just stand near us while we're having

00:07:48   a conversation.

00:07:49   That's next year's Memos Park.

00:07:51   Yeah.

00:07:52   You get to hang around Jason and Myke.

00:07:53   We just give you the address of a street corner, and we'll be talking there if you'd like

00:07:56   to come by you can listen in on that conversation but we were talking about

00:07:59   about the percentage of time that you use your iPad in a keyboard

00:08:04   configuration and this struck me as being one of the reasons why maybe our

00:08:09   takes on this are a little bit divergent is that I you said what 90% of the time

00:08:14   your iPad is in a keyboard yeah whenever I'm using my iPad it is pretty much

00:08:19   always in landscape mode with a keyboard attached to it I don't know why that is

00:08:24   it just is like even when I'm reading stuff like Twitter and stuff that's how

00:08:26   I have it I have it in landscape usually in split view even on the 9 7 because

00:08:31   split view works and you have a keyboard attached but if you doesn't work on the

00:08:34   9 7 when using the software keyboard because you get 25% of the apps right

00:08:39   like you get just the top corners but it really works with the keyboard so I tend

00:08:43   to have it in that configuration and it's just because that's how it stands

00:08:46   like this thing it's really stable with the keyboard attached to it more so than

00:08:50   the smart keyboard yeah and plus it's got the pencil loop in it as well but

00:08:53   But yeah, I tend to have my iPads in their keyboards.

00:08:57   And for me, although I am a landscape iPad user, for sure, um, most of the time, unless

00:09:03   I'm reading a comic or something like that, or maybe a long article, I'll have it in landscape.

00:09:08   In portrait.

00:09:09   Yeah, well, when I'm reading a comic or an article, I'll be in portrait.

00:09:15   Otherwise I'm in landscape.

00:09:16   I'm always in landscape.

00:09:18   But I have the keyboard attached less than 10% of the time, maybe 5% of the time.

00:09:23   unless I'm writing an article, I don't use a keyboard, which is why having an external

00:09:27   Bluetooth keyboard and a stand really works well for me is because it's a special occasion

00:09:33   to break out the keyboard. And so I think that is the source anyway of our maybe our

00:09:38   different take on this is everybody's different. Everybody's going to have that percentage

00:09:43   of time where they want to use the iPad with a keyboard. And if it's a high percentage,

00:09:47   then you're willing to make more trade-offs. Now that the Logitech Create 9.7, it is fairly

00:09:52   easy to pop it out of there. I think easier than on the 12.9. I think they learned a lot

00:09:58   of lessons after they made that 12.9. This 9.7 is not just a knockoff small version of

00:10:04   the 12.9. I think it is everybody who designed that product learning from the criticism of

00:10:08   it and making it better because it's better in all those ways. So you pop it out and then

00:10:13   you've got the naked iPad but it's a yeah yeah it's I'm impressed by it. I'm not sure

00:10:19   whether yeah I have a loaner from Apple that I expect that they're going to want back at

00:10:27   some point soon but I've held on to it because I'm running iOS 10 on it and not on my the

00:10:32   one that I bought the 12.9 that I bought but yeah yeah it's a my I if I had a 9.7 I think

00:10:41   I would probably get it I'm impressed by it a little bit of follow-up friend of the show

00:10:46   Jeremy Burge of Emojipedia has started a podcast called The Emoji Rap. There's just like a

00:10:52   trailer episode right now, but I'm suggesting people subscribe to this show because we talk

00:10:58   about emoji a lot. Emoji is very interesting and Jeremy is very connected to the emoji

00:11:04   world. He's on the Unicode committee. Yeah he's on the emoji subcommittee. So from talking

00:11:09   to him I know he's got some interesting people lined up. So if you are interested in emoji

00:11:13   at all. I recommend subscribing to the emoji wrap and of course you will find a link to

00:11:18   that in our show notes and I'm very excited about it and the artwork is amazing. It is

00:11:22   a microphone in a burrito wrap which is brilliant with a smiley face on the microphone naturally

00:11:28   so go give it a shot. Jeremy's a great guy. Yeah yeah I'm looking forward to that. And

00:11:33   last piece of whole lot today do you remember many weeks ago we were talking about the rainbow

00:11:37   Apple Watch nylon band. Yeah, the Pride bands. Yeah, someone sent me an article on 9to5Mac,

00:11:45   it looks like it was a sponsored thing on 9to5Mac but it's still interesting to mention.

00:11:49   There's a company called Clockwork Synergy which is making these, the nylon bands that

00:11:55   are in the rainbow colours and I wondered, Jason, if you would think about buying something

00:12:00   like this. I'm still very hesitant of buying any bands that don't use the lugs from Apple

00:12:08   and from what I could see on their website it doesn't look like that they have the official

00:12:11   lugs.

00:12:12   I have a couple of bands that use knock-off watch band lugs.

00:12:18   Which is why I wondered if you would be interested in this because I know you have them. I'm

00:12:21   just nervous of it, like of it slipping out or something. Which is also another point.

00:12:25   Where are the third-party bands made by the Made for iPhone program? There aren't any

00:12:30   like Apple has all the specs out, I haven't seen one.

00:12:32   Well, you've got to wonder if the issue there is concern about compatibility with a future

00:12:39   Apple Watch model.

00:12:40   Don't say that.

00:12:41   I have so many bands.

00:12:42   I know, and I hope that's not the case.

00:12:44   But you also have to wonder if it's just the terms of that.

00:12:49   You're buying the lugs from Apple, you're paying a licensing fee.

00:12:52   Might just be not worth it.

00:12:54   They might be thinking, well, we're competing with third-party bands that cost half of what

00:12:58   we're going to be able to charge for this and so let's not even bother.

00:13:01   That could be it. That could be it. Like can you think maybe, I don't know, like the Hermes

00:13:04   ones might be from that program? Apple, I mean the high end, I feel like Apple's

00:13:09   licensing program is more likely for some kind of high end brand that wants to do its

00:13:14   own Apple Watch band and doesn't have a deal directly with Apple.

00:13:18   I think there is one company, I can't remember the name, but I know I've seen there is a

00:13:22   fashion brand which is teasing some and they look to be the official ones. I can't remember

00:13:28   the name off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure that there is someone doing it, but it's,

00:13:33   as you say, a big brand that can charge larger prices.

00:13:37   Because that's the value you get is in doing that. Otherwise, you're a third party, you

00:13:43   know, what's a third party band otherwise? You're trying to go for undercutting Apple

00:13:47   on price, I would think. And I doubt if you're licensing, you're going to be able to do that.

00:13:51   So then how do you differentiate from all the Apple stuff? Because by all accounts,

00:13:55   all the Apple bands are incredibly high quality, so you're not going to outdo them on

00:13:58   quality probably unless you're some sort of brand that offers a you know a luxury brand

00:14:04   experience of some kind and so I think that's the story is that it's it's cheaper and easier

00:14:09   for these companies to get knockoff lugs and sell them on eBay for for $20 a shot or $15

00:14:16   a shot and I've got a couple and they're fine they're not great they're not as good quality

00:14:20   as Apple but they're but they're fine. And there are lots of people that have them and

00:14:23   they said that they're fine but I have so many bands and a good choice of them

00:14:27   I'm fine with it but I'm just a little bit nervous if one day my watch just

00:14:32   slipping off my wrist or whatever yeah sure that's what that's what kind of

00:14:35   freaks me out but it's there if you want it maybe you should get it and you can

00:14:39   you can say what you think of it because it's a fun idea. It's a fun idea, the six-color band.

00:14:46   This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by PDF Pen from Smile. I'm very excited about

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00:15:58   I'm going for the house buying process right now which means lots of documents that need lots of

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00:16:08   this morning before we came here I had a document that I needed to sign for my broker and I just

00:16:13   signed it on PDF pen and emailed it to my girlfriend and she's going to be able to sign it

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00:17:08   I honestly I use it every single day because if I'm not using it for the

00:17:11   house stuff I'm using it for contracts and stuff for real AFM it we had to do

00:17:16   this we had to do this my wife needed to fax fax something away and be and it was

00:17:24   involving my daughter and her her high school athletics activity and so it was

00:17:30   a report from a doctor and I said we can do this digitally we could take a

00:17:35   picture of the document and bring it in and annotate it and then send it back

00:17:41   back out and it's like a fax but it's actually from the 21st century and it

00:17:47   would be clear you can actually read it imagine that we have another german

00:17:51   report guys on fire yeah report from the government desk this is all about the

00:17:58   macbook pro line refresh so we're gonna talk about that before I have a question

00:18:02   I'd like to pose for you so we're coming up on September coming up on the event

00:18:06   We've had iPhone rumors coming out from Goemon. We now have MacBook stuff

00:18:10   Not only is did nothing from him

00:18:13   But I can't think of I can't recall any credible

00:18:17   sources any credible reports about the Apple watch -

00:18:21   nothing

00:18:23   What what what's happening here? Do you think that maybe the product is so small production wise?

00:18:29   It's not fully in the chain yet. I think it's possible. I think that they may

00:18:34   if there is an Apple Watch 2, so there are a couple possibilities. One rumor is that

00:18:41   there is an Apple Watch 2 design as well as an update to the Apple Watch original that

00:18:47   there might be sort of, they'll keep the original around as the sport model with slightly upgraded

00:18:53   internals which is something I've expected all along. I think I might have even talked

00:18:57   about this when it was announced a couple years ago, the idea that they might leave

00:19:01   the external design the same. Why? Of course they will. They're going to have the one that

00:19:05   we have right now for sale for cheaper because that's the Apple way. Every product line has

00:19:09   this. Right, so they'll make it a little bit faster maybe, maybe it has a little bit more

00:19:12   memory but it's basically the same Apple Watch now. I don't think they're going to do that.

00:19:15   It'll look exactly the same. I think it's possible that they'd upgrade the internals

00:19:18   a little bit but nothing substantial and maybe not even talk about it but it might be slightly

00:19:23   better, slight variation. But if you think that watchOS 3 is fast now, they don't need

00:19:27   to do it. That's true. I don't think they're going to do that. So they keep that around

00:19:30   as the sport model and they cut the price and then they start producing one that's got

00:19:34   fancier features at higher price points.

00:19:36   I hope that if they do that though they don't just have aluminium versions of the watch

00:19:41   too. Like that they, not just stainless steel I mean, and they also have the aluminium versions.

00:19:46   Because I personally don't like the stainless steel design for me. So we'll see what they

00:19:50   do there.

00:19:51   We'll see. So my theories are one, it is so small or constrained or they are making an

00:19:56   effort based on where they're making it to keep the leaks out of the supply chain or

00:20:02   it may not even be put in production yet that they're that they're leaving that to later

00:20:06   and it's something that's not going to ship until October or November even right I think

00:20:10   they really just want to get it out there for the holiday season which means they could

00:20:14   even not ship it until early November and it would be just fine I think and so that's

00:20:19   one theory and my other product that they need to worry about announcing early right

00:20:24   So it's the Osbourne effect, right?

00:20:25   Yeah, where they kill the-- yeah, Apple Watch 1 sales

00:20:28   are trailing off right now anyway in anticipation of it.

00:20:30   Speaking of which, I'm going to put a link in the show notes

00:20:33   to a Planet Money episode about the Osbourne effect.

00:20:35   I don't listen to Planet Money, but Adina does.

00:20:38   And it was on in the house the other day.

00:20:40   And it was absolutely fascinating

00:20:44   to hear about Osbourne computers and how

00:20:46   they kind of just exploded.

00:20:50   It was really, really interesting.

00:20:52   So I'm gonna put that in there. I'll find it. I'm sure it's around here

00:20:56   But yeah, if you don't know what the Osborne effect is goes into that. It's very smart

00:21:01   I'm right at it

00:21:02   So they my other theory is that there the Apple watch 2 looks so much like the Apple watch one that nobody can tell

00:21:08   That it is that it is literally an internals upgrade and that it may not look anything different on the outside

00:21:17   or or so close in terms of maybe the the metal enclosure or

00:21:22   even if it does have GPS, even if it does have a camera, that that may be part of the

00:21:29   screen housing and not the metal enclosure so that the places where most of these leaks

00:21:33   come from in terms of like the enclosures wouldn't see it or wouldn't notice it. It

00:21:38   wouldn't shock me because again I feel like this brand new product you got a bunch of

00:21:44   early adopters maybe Apple doesn't want its next iteration of the Apple watch to be that

00:21:49   different from the one that's out there now. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, sure,

00:21:53   ultimately they want it to be a thinner product. I'm not sure that this is the era yet of the

00:21:59   Apple Watch where they can really make it thinner when they've got so much that they're

00:22:03   trying to pack into that technology. I think it's small enough. It's not a thin watch by

00:22:09   any stretch of the imagination, but it's small enough that maybe they want to kind of let

00:22:12   it ride and just do a smaller upgrade to make it more capable and sell more of them. Because

00:22:19   honestly I don't know, I'm not seeing a huge leap that they could necessarily take with

00:22:25   it. I think the software, what we saw with watchOS 3, I think watchOS 3 is the biggest

00:22:30   leap for the Apple Watch, honestly. But we'll see. So that's one theory is that it's so

00:22:36   subtle that we may not notice. And the other theory is that it's, yeah, that they're hiding

00:22:40   it away and it's not far enough along that we had any leaks.

00:22:44   We'll see. I mean, I don't know, I feel like they're gonna do something. I really want

00:22:49   to see it just get a little bit thinner. That's mainly all I want. I mean, a lot of the rumors

00:22:53   early on, well, a little while ago was about putting a camera in the thing.

00:22:56   I still don't understand the value of putting a camera in it.

00:22:59   I don't think it would work. But we'll see. Anyway, so the government report about the

00:23:03   MacBook Pro, refresh, slightly thinner, not tapered, smaller footprint. Slightly thinner.

00:23:09   I wanted lots thinner. I wanted like towards MacBook thinner.

00:23:14   So I talked about this with Gruber on the talk show last week and I think the challenge

00:23:20   here, I think we all wanted that, right? We all wanted, we wanted the MacBook and the

00:23:26   MacBook Air to lead the way for the MacBook Pro. They are more than those, more substantial

00:23:30   than those computers but still thinner, lighter, always it's the Apple law, thinner and lighter.

00:23:37   And I think the problem is that if you look at the MacBook, it's extreme, but what you're

00:23:43   seeing there is cooling problems, power problems, it's so underpowered compared to like state-of-the-art.

00:23:53   And it's because of the quest to have it be thin and light.

00:23:56   This is the MacBook Pro.

00:23:59   It has to supply a minimum amount of performance.

00:24:02   It has to.

00:24:03   Otherwise, use the MacBook.

00:24:04   If you want thin and light, use the MacBook.

00:24:07   But the MacBook Pro has to have a base level of performance.

00:24:10   They can't not have a laptop in their line that's capable of top of the line laptop performance.

00:24:17   And I think that's what's behind this.

00:24:19   It's just, you know, we can't make it this much smaller because we can't put an i7 in

00:24:27   it.

00:24:28   We can't use the full-on Intel processors.

00:24:30   We can't do the discrete graphics card that we need to in order to drive an external HD

00:24:34   display, let's say, down the road. There's so many things that kind of fall off the feature

00:24:39   list if this happens, if they take it below a certain point. So I feel like there is still

00:24:46   a constraining factor in there. They're trying to get it as light and thin as they can while

00:24:50   still having it be a flagship laptop. But it is disappointing, right? Because we all

00:24:56   imagine a MacBook Pro that feels more like the MacBook, and it just may not be possible

00:25:01   for them because the MacBook is so, I mean, it's the cautionary tale of laptops, right?

00:25:07   Don't be like me unless you want it, I mean, if you want it thin and light, be like that,

00:25:12   but a pro laptop can't afford to make that decision.

00:25:16   Just quickly, it wasn't Planet Money, it was Gimlet's eBay podcast, Open for Business.

00:25:21   That was what it was on, so I'll put that in the show notes in case you're looking for

00:25:24   it. It's worth listening to.

00:25:27   The reason I want it super thin and super light is my own selfish needs. What I'm looking

00:25:31   for out of an Apple laptop now is the best possible laptop for travelling. Because the

00:25:39   only time I ever use a laptop now is when it's in my bag and I'm on a trip like this

00:25:44   because I might need to use logic on the go. So I'm looking for the smallest, thinnest

00:25:49   powerful computer. That's my desire. So that's why I want it to be super light and super

00:25:55   thin. I will take slightly thinner, but what I really want is a lot lighter. That's what I'm

00:26:02   looking for. And just to be the devil's advocate here, I suppose, a little bit,

00:26:08   you could argue that there is not a lot that you do that a MacBook can't do. Like the MacBook,

00:26:18   and you could build that with that i7 even, I think. This is what I thought. So I was actually

00:26:25   very close to buying a MacBook at WWDC because Gray was using one like and it

00:26:32   was working for him he was editing we were looking at it together your

00:26:35   pressure is powerful and I was I was holding a MacBook adorable in my hands

00:26:39   and I was gonna get it but I thought to myself we're so close from the MacBook

00:26:43   Pro refresh I need to see what that is because if it is super light and super

00:26:48   thin or light enough and thin enough it will still have all the power that I need

00:26:53   So I'm just for me personally, I'm just gonna see what they do here and then think about my next upgrade

00:26:59   Like I might not rush into it and just keep the MacBook Pro that I have for a while

00:27:03   But there are some things in this which are interesting to me and the touchscreen

00:27:07   Trip for the function keys. I think that could be kind of cool

00:27:12   So this is one of the things why I'm like umming and ahhing about what to do here. So from German's report

00:27:18   They the touch screen strip will present functions on an as-needed basis to fit the current task or application. I

00:27:24   Not the first person to think this but it threw me right back to the original iPhone introduction, you know

00:27:30   No physical buttons just a touch screen because then you can add the buttons. You can change the buttons

00:27:36   You can make the buttons whatever you need them to be right?

00:27:38   So it made me think of that like I imagine having logic open and being able to program in some shortcuts

00:27:44   of the tools that I want to switch to, which would then make it even more

00:27:48   interesting and more cool to use than my iMac for that function. So this is why I

00:27:53   think this could be interesting, but I know that people like yourself who have

00:27:59   been used to using these keyboards for a long time are a little bit more hesitant

00:28:02   of keys being removed in the interest of adding this touchscreen strip.

00:28:07   I'm skeptical about the touchscreen. Oh I should say as my follow-up, yes you can

00:28:12   built to order an M7, which is the lightweight version of that. So you can power up that

00:28:17   MacBook a lot.

00:28:18   And I would. It's possible.

00:28:21   The touchscreen thing, again Gruber and I touched on this too, and he made the point

00:28:26   of do you not look at your function keys? Because I complained that if you have to do

00:28:32   it not on feel, but you have to look at the screen, you have to look down. I do touch

00:28:38   type some of the the power you know the volume and the brightness I do I do that but my concern

00:28:44   is is it really going to be app specific stuff or is it mostly going to be system stuff and

00:28:50   maybe there will be an option for some app specific stuff on there but I feel like it's

00:28:54   much more likely that it's mostly system shortcuts and maybe apps will be able to put the labels

00:29:01   on the the equivalent of function keys so like they'll say you can have access to f1

00:29:08   F8 and as you do now. So you reckon that the volume and the brightness will always be there,

00:29:14   right? Like, my expectation is it will take more taps. So there'll be like on the right

00:29:19   hand side you'll get like a little sun and a little volume thing and you'll tap that

00:29:23   and it will expand and then you could change the volume or brightness. I don't know if

00:29:27   this is going to be multi-touch or not but my, I don't know if this is a prediction.

00:29:33   If I were at Apple, I would at least ask the people involved, why do we need discrete key

00:29:44   taps for volume and brightness?

00:29:47   Could that not be if you put your finger anywhere on that strip and slide it up and down, it's

00:29:53   brightness?

00:29:54   And if you put two fingers down and slide it, it's volume.

00:30:00   then you wouldn't be tapping buttons at all. That completely changes your requirement for

00:30:04   having it from a touch typing perspective. Right. Because you're doing it. You're doing

00:30:10   gestures. You're doing gestures for the most common controls for a laptop. If they don't

00:30:13   put gestures in that bar, it may as well have been another company that made it. Because

00:30:18   gestures are Apple's thing. Right? So a multi-touch bar where you don't have to... because what

00:30:25   I've been saying all along... It's really small actually. About volume and brightness

00:30:28   is they're not fundamentally discrete key tap interfaces. We've repurposed keys to do

00:30:36   them because we have keys on a keyboard, right? But they're not -- they're all a continuum,

00:30:43   right? They all are sliders, essentially. And so in the interface you have them as sliders,

00:30:49   but on your keyboard you have keys, so you tap the keys. But if they do this, they don't

00:30:54   need to be keys anymore. They really can be. You know, imagine as a laptop user, you're

00:30:59   sitting in front of your laptop and you want it to be a little brighter or darker, just

00:31:02   being able to reach up to that strip and stick your finger down and then just slide until

00:31:06   you're comfortable and then let go. It's like that makes so much sense to me.

00:31:10   I really like that. So that's what I hope they do. And then you

00:31:14   don't need brightness and volume controllers on that strip at all.

00:31:18   Because you have a better method of doing it now.

00:31:20   Like that's not like, "Oh, we've replaced it." That's better. Like that's just a better

00:31:25   way of doing this.

00:31:26   Or alternately you say if you slide on, if it's not multi-touch, you slide the finger

00:31:29   on the right side and it's volume and on the left side it's brightness or something like

00:31:32   that. But something that's gestural and not like tap, tap, tap, tap on this touch screen.

00:31:36   I'd like that. And then my other theory is that, you know, how do you make this thing

00:31:41   not a feature that only affects MacBook Pro 2016 models is maybe the easy way is to just

00:31:49   say look app developers you know put your shortcuts on f1 through f8 and then

00:31:54   here's an API to do custom labels and on this model the custom labels will show

00:32:00   and you get to name what f3 is and put a little icon and put a little icon and

00:32:05   all that stuff and on all the other systems it's f3 it's just right there

00:32:09   thing is though the MacBook Pro if you're a Mac developer that's got to be

00:32:15   where the majority of your audience is anyway.

00:32:17   - Yeah, but it'll take years for--

00:32:19   - Yeah, I agree, but like a new API,

00:32:22   like a new framework to work just with that bar

00:32:24   that only works on the MacBook Pro,

00:32:26   I don't think that's a bad decision.

00:32:28   Like if you're a developer,

00:32:29   because there have got to be so many,

00:32:31   like do you have the basic level,

00:32:33   which is what you just said,

00:32:34   like you map the keys and you put little icons in,

00:32:36   but then there's also a like press and hold and drag,

00:32:39   and like, you know, there's another level

00:32:42   you can move to if you want to.

00:32:43   - Yeah, it depends on-- - Because it would upset me

00:32:44   if they put this bar in and all it did was just replace the keys.

00:32:47   Yeah I agree. Like I want it to be like with this idea of the brightness and volume I want

00:32:52   that sort of stuff like in logic right? Like that it can control some kind of volume or

00:32:57   some kind of slider or you know. And that would sell you potentially on buying a MacBook

00:33:02   Pro which is one of the ideas here and if it took off maybe they would put that in all

00:33:05   their other other products too. I hope that this would come and it would be crazy if it

00:33:09   didn't to a keyboard a new magic keyboard. Oh sure. And have one of these in them. And

00:33:13   would be mega expensive like 250 bucks or something they would charge for it

00:33:17   this but it would be really cool I I would go so far as to say I feel like

00:33:21   this is a this thing will be a failure if it doesn't extend to the rest of the

00:33:24   Mac product like like force touch or the full such track you got to put it

00:33:28   everywhere you got to make it available everywhere for such trackpad didn't come

00:33:31   to the trackpad like the the magic trackpad right that would it would have

00:33:36   forced touch would have been a failure because if you don't bring it to that

00:33:38   external product it means it didn't work as well enough in the laptop right so

00:33:41   They I mean I would argue that it didn't doesn't work anywhere like as an extension

00:33:45   But like the the technology is good right that you can create this thing where it clicks and but that's effectively all it does for

00:33:53   Me, okay. I don't know anyone that's using it differently. All it is is like congratulations. You removed the need for a spring

00:33:59   Yeah, that's effectively all they did because I don't know

00:34:03   Anyone, I'm sure people will contact me. Please do if you do it that uses the force touch trackpad gestures for anything

00:34:11   Like you've got all the stuff like to what is it like to seek in a video and but it's not used but it's cool

00:34:16   Technology and if what they did was it helped them make the laptops thinner then great you succeeded but as a

00:34:24   New gesture interface the force touch stuff. I don't think has really taken off in any way

00:34:30   But the product like the idea of it the technology works. That's one saying like

00:34:35   Even if people don't really super adopt it if it comes to the keyboard

00:34:40   know the technology works and even from a base level everyone's happy with it but we'll see um

00:34:45   let's chew over some other things that this that this macbook pro is rumored to have sure

00:34:48   more powerful graphics chips is a line that i cannot get my head around in german's article

00:34:54   for expert users such as video gamers i can't get my head around what this means like for one thing

00:35:03   like that that the sentence just doesn't make any sense to me like expert users such as video gamers

00:35:08   I don't think that those two terms are interchangeable like gamers are not expert users of computers and expert users aren't necessarily gamers, but

00:35:15   Why are they pointing out?

00:35:19   The graphics chips work for games. This is not a thing on the Mac like

00:35:24   Mac gaming there. There are lots and lots of hurdles the biggest hurdle being that Apple have

00:35:31   Kind of terrible chips for games. Yeah, I

00:35:35   I don't know why they would be promoting this as a thing, right?

00:35:38   Like, why they're talking about this to Gherman,

00:35:40   'cause they will talk about it on stage, I expect.

00:35:43   And I can't understand why they're doing this in the MacBook Pro line.

00:35:46   Like, it's just—this is just a thing that's very confusing to me,

00:35:49   and I really want to see more about what that means

00:35:52   and what the chips actually are that they're gonna be using.

00:35:54   It's very—it's a very weird statement.

00:35:56   - Yeah, it sounds to me like this is a fact about

00:36:00   they're using more powerful graphics in here

00:36:03   and then attempting to, and we've seen this I think in a couple of his reports where

00:36:08   there's then attempt to explain how it might be used that's kind of a reach.

00:36:13   Yeah like this, there are so many hurdles about bringing this stuff like games to the Mac.

00:36:18   It just seems like such a weird statement to make but we'll see about that.

00:36:23   Yeah.

00:36:23   USB-C to be included?

00:36:25   Mm-hmm.

00:36:25   I was thinking about this, I really want USB-C power for my laptop because I have one of those

00:36:32   huge Anker batteries that I bought on Prime Day. I have had like little Mophies but I

00:36:38   got like that huge Anker thing which is basically like an Anker. It's massive. And that could

00:36:46   power my laptop. Right. I want that. Yeah I mean the USB-C power, the disadvantage is

00:36:54   it doesn't have the you know magnet release stuff that MagSafe has. But one of the advantages

00:36:59   is that it is no longer a connector that's licensed only by Apple and that you now have

00:37:05   any USB power source will work with it. I think one of the interesting questions about

00:37:11   USB-C on the MacBook Pros is what is the port configuration in general? Is it only USB-C?

00:37:20   Is it USB-C and USB 3?

00:37:26   Is there Thunderbolt?

00:37:28   And is it USB-C or is it Thunderbolt 3 USB-C?

00:37:31   There are a lot of questions about this because we're in a port transition now and I think

00:37:35   the question is, is this one of those MacBook Pro releases whenever it comes that is a rip

00:37:40   the band-aid off release where all the legacy ports just go away and you need adapters or

00:37:44   is it more, which I think would probably be the wisest path, is more of a transitional

00:37:49   form where they've got some traditional USB on there and they've got the new USB.

00:37:54   If they go USB-C only on the MacBook Pro, that would be crazy.

00:38:00   Yeah, well, there would be howls of protests, which is probably why they're not, because

00:38:04   pros have lots of USB things that they need to connect.

00:38:06   This should be half the way through, right? So instead of having two regular USB things,

00:38:11   you have one USB, one USB-C, right? So you're like slowly moving towards the USB-C standard.

00:38:17   And there's plenty of room for ports on the side of that thing.

00:38:20   Yeah.

00:38:20   You know.

00:38:21   Yeah, I mean, you could have--

00:38:22   I mean, even if they gave me like one USB, two USB-C,

00:38:25   like, you know, like, don't take it away.

00:38:27   Help move me along this line.

00:38:29   But removing all of the existing I/O for this would--

00:38:33   that would-- yeah, that would be crazy.

00:38:34   Although if you want USB-C power,

00:38:36   you're going to need more than one USB-C port.

00:38:40   Yes.

00:38:41   Because what, like, two on the side, like two USB-C on one

00:38:44   side, one USB on the other, SD card, headphone jack? Well, and there's a question about video,

00:38:53   right? Because right now video comes out as Mini DisplayPort, which is also Thunderbolt.

00:38:58   If you did... It does have one Thunderbolt on it as well, probably. I would imagine so,

00:39:02   because you could also do Thunderbolt 3 through USB-C, but then you're gonna, I mean, Apple

00:39:07   will sell a bunch more adapters if they do that, right? Because you'll have to replace

00:39:11   all your old Thunderbolt video adapters, mini DisplayPort with USB-C Thunderbolt 3 video

00:39:16   adapters instead, which, I mean, that's not beyond Apple to do that. But, yeah, if I had

00:39:21   to make a guess, it would be that they'd introduce this new connection type while leaving the

00:39:25   old type there for one model year, basically, and then the next one would clear that stuff

00:39:32   away.

00:39:33   Yeah, we'll see. The I/O is going to be a real hot topic on this machine. I'm interested

00:39:40   to see what they do with it. The headphone jack will be very interesting. I think if

00:39:46   they remove it from the iPhone, they would probably take it off the Macbook just for

00:39:51   the sake of it, but I don't know. I hope that they don't because of what I do. I don't want

00:39:56   there to not be a headphone port on this because audio is my life.

00:40:00   Well I think Macbook Pro, also you've got the argument that they don't, they've got

00:40:04   space for a headphone jack. Yeah. And pros need latency-free, not re-encoded audio out

00:40:14   if they're a video or audio editor. So on a pro, I feel like these are the last devices

00:40:19   that Apple would make that would lose their headphone jack. I hope you're right. There's

00:40:23   too many reasons why pros need wired audio. This is my realization, is one, I use headphones

00:40:31   every day, but I don't use wired headphones on my iPhone every day. In fact, I very rarely

00:40:38   do these days, but I use wired headphones every day on my Mac. So I'm very attached

00:40:44   to wired headphones, but not on my iPhone so much as on my Mac. My Mac is where it's

00:40:52   important.

00:40:53   Touch ID? Excellent. Please.

00:40:55   Please? Sure. There aren't a lot of reasons why you'd need it on a Mac as much as an iPhone,

00:41:02   but just for me, 1Password on my Mac. I hate typing the password in now.

00:41:06   Yeah, I feel like it's unlocking your Mac and doing Apple Pay and doing 1Password and

00:41:13   things like that and having the ability to do that without. I think this stuff is starting

00:41:19   to migrate to Apple watches and to iPhones connected to your Mac, but that's also a hack

00:41:27   because your Mac is incapable of doing it itself. So this would be a start down that

00:41:31   path.

00:41:32   Yeah, I think that all of that stuff in Sierra is the fallback for when they implement Touch

00:41:35   ID. So they implement Touch ID and that is in Sierra, we just don't see it yet. And then

00:41:41   everybody that doesn't have the new MacBook Pro, which is the only model with a Touch

00:41:44   ID in, they can do all of this new stuff by using the old devices.

00:41:48   I think this is a really smart way of Apple doing this, like announcing the base level,

00:41:52   security stuff first, get people working to these new APIs so then as soon as the touch

00:41:57   ID is there it works immediately for everyone.

00:41:59   It's an interesting way of staging up to that when they usually do the reverse.

00:42:03   They announce the feature and then everyone can work backwards from there but instead

00:42:08   they're doing it in the other way which I quite like.

00:42:10   "Aren't likely to be debuted at the September event" is what German says.

00:42:16   Goemann sources are very good, but I just flat out disagree with this. I just think

00:42:20   that he's got that, he's got this wrong. And he's got, and the way it's phrased, it's possible

00:42:24   that he's talking to somebody who's like, "Yeah, I don't think they're gonna fit it

00:42:26   in." And that's like, okay, well, that's one person's opinion at Apple, but yeah, I think

00:42:30   it's, I think it makes no sense. When they took the time to talk about the iPad Pro,

00:42:36   the last one, they will take the time to talk about the MacBooks of this one. Yeah, also,

00:42:41   let's remember last year's event was packed. Last year's event, there was no October event,

00:42:44   there was no follow-on event. They could do one. They could do a Mac event. I felt like

00:42:49   we were done with Town Hall, but I don't think it's gonna happen. And that's why, because

00:42:55   I don't think they're gonna do a Mac event at a special venue, and I don't think they're

00:42:59   going back to Town Hall. And I don't think they want to unveil the Mac, a whole bunch

00:43:05   of new Mac models with just briefings and press releases, although they could do that.

00:43:10   this MacBook Pro. But that's exactly it. So I think what I would say is if you've got

00:43:15   new MacBook Pros, if it is tied into those features in Sierra, you have to take some

00:43:19   time at the September event to talk about Sierra. That is also the time that you talk

00:43:23   about your new Macs that are going to support all these great features in Sierra. And you

00:43:28   do that all at once and that is 20 or 30 minutes of your keynote and that's fine. You've got

00:43:34   two hours. It's a long time. This touch screen is true. There are no new iPads this time.

00:43:39   you said. No new Apple TV. No new iPads. It's a new iPhone. How much time do you need to

00:43:46   take on new iPhone and iOS 10? Especially when there really isn't going to be that much.

00:43:51   Like this iPhone. And a new Apple watch. But this iPhone is going to be more like the amount

00:43:55   of time they probably give to an S because everything that we've seen suggests that it's

00:43:59   going to be like an S release. And to go back to WWDC, I feel like they're going to structure

00:44:04   this as four platforms. So they're going to do an Apple TV update and say Apple TV is

00:44:08   great look at all the apps Olympics yay okay let's talk about watch OS oh look

00:44:13   cool new watch let's talk about let's talk about Mac OS oh hey new max and

00:44:18   let's talk about I iOS oh look new iPhone goodbye everybody right structure

00:44:23   it like that move through the product line and and drop your I mean imagine if

00:44:29   they just said like we have new max coming Phil Schiller comes on stage and

00:44:33   says new MacBook Pros, new Mac Pros, you know, new iMac update, you know, these are shipping

00:44:40   in October, these are shipping in November, goodbye everybody. I think it's perfectly

00:44:45   reasonable for them to do it that way. It's really funny to me because you and Gurbu were

00:44:49   kind of referencing the new Mac releases and you just did it then and both times you didn't

00:44:52   mention the Mac Mini. Pull Mac Mini. Chances that Mac Mini is going to get a stage call

00:44:58   out seems like almost non-existent, but it might happen. It will probably get a refresh

00:45:03   like the iMac will, like what's inside of it. It's not going to get anybody.

00:45:07   Well it's been two years, oh certainly not, but it's been two years but I feel like yeah,

00:45:11   every two or three years they will come in and just refresh the internals on the Mac

00:45:14   Mini because look if it didn't sell they wouldn't keep making them. It does sell, it serves

00:45:19   a purpose in the product line. Not every product is your star. Not every product needs to be

00:45:24   your star. We had this discussion with the iPhone SE, it's the same thing. It's like

00:45:28   the iPhone SE is doing pretty well for Apple but it's never going to be more than probably

00:45:33   15% of the iPhone, 15-20% of the iPhone sales, that's fine. Mac Mini holds down an important

00:45:39   part or you know holds down a part, may not be an important part of the Mac product line,

00:45:43   it's good that it exists and every two or three years they put in just enough effort

00:45:47   to keep it on the price list.

00:45:50   I've had many, why are you mentioning many? Wait until next year as well? I mean I assume

00:45:56   so, they're not going to wrap that product on its own but that's getting pretty long

00:45:59   in the tooth.

00:46:00   - No, the iPad mini got updated last year

00:46:05   to match the iPad Air 2.

00:46:07   - Last September.

00:46:08   - Yeah, so it's been a year.

00:46:10   - Okay.

00:46:10   - And I feel like all the iPad stuff

00:46:12   is moving to the spring.

00:46:16   And so if that's the case, then I feel like the,

00:46:20   same thing, I feel like the iPad mini

00:46:21   is still gonna kick around.

00:46:23   It's got uses.

00:46:24   I know people who love the mini because they are,

00:46:27   like I used to be, somebody who,

00:46:29   where I went to the other extreme of the iPad line. The iPad mini I loved because it was

00:46:34   small it was super pocketable. I still know people who feel that way. It's a great iPad

00:46:40   for kids. Great. My son is an iPad mini user and he loves it. It is perfect for him. He

00:46:47   does not need a bigger iPad. So I think like the Mac mini it'll just kick around. It's

00:46:52   going to get updated every couple of years. It allows them to sell a brand new iPad for

00:46:58   on the cheap side and I think I think it'll just keep going around but it's

00:47:02   never going to be you know there was a moment when it was released where there

00:47:06   was like this iPad mini hysteria like this is going to be a huge this might be

00:47:10   the biggest iPad and I think that's not I think it's just a it's an edge case

00:47:14   iPad. Alright so that's that I mean looking to see I think we're going to

00:47:20   see in September I hope we do. I hope so. So we're a few weeks away. It doesn't have to ship in September in fact it almost certainly

00:47:25   wouldn't do it but later but we should see it last week we spoke about

00:47:31   pocketcasts now there's a new another new podcast application for iOS come out

00:47:36   this week Castro - you may remember Castro it was a great little app came

00:47:41   out with iOS 7 really beautiful design from super top and they have gone and

00:47:47   they've updated Castro what's a brand new app Castro - they've been working on

00:47:52   for a couple of years. I'm really happy to see it out. Supertop are a great company and

00:47:56   I want to spend some time talking about it because it is very different and very interesting.

00:48:02   I'll also put a link in the show notes to the Supertop podcast. They've created a podcast

00:48:08   of their own talking about the development of this product and it was very interesting

00:48:12   in the first episode to hear them talking about their kind of feelings coming up to

00:48:19   launch and hearing the kind of the doubt and stuffing them it was it was a very

00:48:23   interesting like episode like on the eve of a launcher for your application how

00:48:28   you feel so I'll put some links in the show for that for their podcast so let's

00:48:33   talk about Castro so the thing that makes Castro too different is the way

00:48:39   the app is built to manage your podcast queue and it does it in a way that no

00:48:45   other application does it and it has different methods of thinking about

00:48:50   managing shows and so the main thing is these that you have a list of all of the

00:48:56   shows that you're subscribed to all of the new episodes for those shows you

00:48:59   then triage them so you tap on the show you either archive it so you're not

00:49:03   gonna listen to it or you add it to the top or bottom of your playing queue

00:49:07   that's how it works so you effectively see all of your shows you triage them

00:49:12   don't want to this one one listen to this one next I'll listen to this one

00:49:14   later and you just go through them all and decide what you want to do every new show.

00:49:19   And what this does is it's really good for people that have lots of shows that they subscribe to

00:49:24   and it's also really good for if you have a show that sometimes you might be interested in

00:49:29   depending on the topic. So you can subscribe to it, it doesn't fill up your playing queue,

00:49:35   but now you can choose if you want to listen to that episode or not.

00:49:38   This is exactly how I am managing my podcasts right now in Overcast.

00:49:43   I subscribe to fundamentally massively more shows than I could ever listen to,

00:49:48   but I pick and choose depending on topic for some shows. So some shows I listen to every week,

00:49:52   in Overcast I have them bump up to the top of my list with the playlist preferences,

00:49:57   and then the rest of them I'll pick and choose depending on what I want to listen to.

00:50:00   But this is an application that is built around that, and as someone who looks at podcasts in the

00:50:05   in the way that I do, Castro has been built for me.

00:50:09   And I have to say, this is easily the very best way

00:50:13   that I have seen for managing a large podcast queue.

00:50:17   And it's now like my favorite paradigm

00:50:20   for how you deal with this stuff.

00:50:22   And I've got to say like, just fundamentally,

00:50:24   no matter what else we say, huge hats off to Supertop

00:50:28   for coming up with something new.

00:50:30   Podcast apps have been the same for 10 years,

00:50:34   and they have worked out a new way to manage that queue,

00:50:37   and it was a thing that I didn't know I needed or wanted this

00:50:40   until they showed it to me, and that's when design is great.

00:50:43   -Well, and I'm somebody who uses Overcast

00:50:46   with a single playlist. -Same.

00:50:47   That's how I do it. -And that's my queue.

00:50:50   And, you know, Marco Arment, who does Overcast,

00:50:56   had a nice tweet this week where he was, like,

00:50:58   applauding this app because it does something new and that that he you know

00:51:07   he really appreciates somebody who obviously sweats the details of podcast

00:51:10   apps and has thought about this a lot this is you know I like that he was

00:51:15   applauding a competitor but he's absolutely right to do it because they

00:51:19   are coming from like you said it's just it's good design they're coming at it

00:51:24   from a very opinionated point of view. They have a point of view. This is an app with

00:51:29   a point of view, which is, it's not a podcast app. It's a podcast app for you, for managing

00:51:35   your listening cue. And so it is best when you're somebody who wants to take control

00:51:42   of what you listen to next, probably listens to a lot of podcasts, probably has opinions

00:51:47   about which podcasts are higher priority and lower priority, and doesn't always listen

00:51:53   to all the episodes of all the podcasts that you subscribe to. I think if any of that rings

00:51:57   true to you, you need to look at Castro 2 because that's the beauty of it is, you subscribe

00:52:02   to podcasts and all it does is pour them into your inbox. And then you sit in your inbox

00:52:06   and go, "Wanna listen to that next? I wanna listen to that eventually. I don't wanna listen

00:52:11   to that. I don't wanna listen to that." And you triage that inbox and you clear out the

00:52:16   inbox. And at that point, your queue is filled up and it's filled up the way that you set

00:52:20   it to be filled, which is the high priority ones are going to play next, the lower priority

00:52:24   ones are at the bottom of the list, and the ones you archive, they never go in your list,

00:52:27   which is one of the things about overcast that does bother me is that sometimes I end

00:52:32   up doing pruning in the playlist because it adds every episode of a podcast and I'm like,

00:52:39   "I don't want to listen to that one." Because there is nothing wrong—I say this about

00:52:43   being comparable all the time—there is nothing wrong with not listening to every episode

00:52:47   of a podcast. People do it. Some people will listen to every episode from the beginning

00:52:51   and will then re-listen and those people, we love those people. But some podcasts, you

00:52:56   don't feel that way about it. You want to pick and choose and Caster is really good

00:53:00   at letting you pick and choose.

00:53:01   There are different types of shows. If someone listens to Upgrade, it would be weird for

00:53:05   me if they pick and choose what episodes to listen to. Because it is one kind of singular

00:53:11   topic we talk about which tends to be Apple-focused technology. So it runs through. But with The

00:53:16   incomparable. If you don't like a movie or have no interest, I've never seen it, then

00:53:20   you pick and choose from – you know what I mean?

00:53:23   Incomparable by design almost is a pick and choose podcast because I don't – I didn't

00:53:28   want to do one podcast about one topic. I wanted it to jump all over the place. As a

00:53:33   result, when people are apologetic, when they say, "Oh, I don't listen to every episode

00:53:38   of the –" it's like, unless you're me, I'm not surprised, right? I pick what

00:53:43   I'm interested in, I expect everybody else to pick and choose and be like, "Yeah, this

00:53:46   is about comics. I don't care about that. I'm not going to listen to that one. Oh, this

00:53:50   one's about Star Wars. I want to listen to that."

00:53:51   It's the difference of topic-focused shows and use-focused shows.

00:53:54   Yeah, exactly.

00:53:55   But anyway, we're digging in the weeds again.

00:53:57   Or there are interview shows that I'll listen to the interviews with people that I'm interested

00:54:01   in.

00:54:02   So when I was doing "Inquisitive," that was so true. People would just -- if you had no

00:54:06   interest in a person, you just didn't listen to their episode. Like, I used to get that

00:54:09   of time and it's one of the problems of doing a show like that it's difficult

00:54:13   because you don't actually know who's listening you see the numbers but the

00:54:16   numbers aren't accurate anyway so wait wait again in so some of my issues with

00:54:20   Castro it doesn't support chapters which which people people do like it doesn't

00:54:25   have a now playing screen per se with like show art and controls the show art

00:54:30   is like kind of sequestered to the bottom right in the little now playing

00:54:34   bar yeah there's a little bar app it it just gives you playback stuff yeah and

00:54:38   it's got an animation of a waveform that's not a real waveform and it doesn't make sense

00:54:44   because the waves keep traveling from the right, which is the end of the podcast, to

00:54:48   the left, and I get what they're trying to do there, but it's like an infinite fake waveform

00:54:53   that goes.

00:54:54   The idea is it's easy to seek, so you can tap and drag to seek through the show. I mean,

00:54:59   that's why they do it that way.

00:55:01   I get that, but the animation is showing something that's not real. It's showing, because it's

00:55:06   the not to again we're down in the weeds here but like the left side is the start

00:55:10   of the podcast and the right side is the end of the podcast but the waves keep

00:55:13   streaming off the right edge of the of the podcast like they're coming from I

00:55:17   don't even know where from beyond the end of the podcast which just as a

00:55:20   metaphor it doesn't work for me I think that's a mistake and the fact that

00:55:23   they're fake waves and the fact that there's a beautiful show art that you

00:55:26   can't see and instead the sleep timer and the you know 1x 2x they're given too

00:55:32   much prominence in the app. Like, there's no need to see those sliders so much.

00:55:36   Yeah. You're saying it has a point of view, which I really agree with Kasia too,

00:55:42   has a point of view. This is one of the points of view that I don't agree with.

00:55:45   Yeah, I just disagree with it. Which is fine. I mean, that's why they

00:55:49   make more than one flavor of ice cream, right? It kind of has two big points of view,

00:55:53   which is how you manage your shows and then the idea of the now playing screen.

00:55:56   Which is essentially that it's not important. It's too difficult to get to show notes

00:55:59   for my liking. You can get to them, you have to tap like twice and we are...

00:56:04   And I get their argument that on the lock screen you see the show art and the controls

00:56:08   and they just use the lock screen. Honestly, I don't think people need to see

00:56:11   this. If the show art's not changing, which they don't seem to support because they don't

00:56:15   support chapters... Right. I don't know, I like it.

00:56:17   You don't need to see the show art every single week.

00:56:20   It makes me happy to see the show art and know which show I'm listening to and it's

00:56:25   a reminder and sometimes they change the art and I enjoy it.

00:56:27   - There's a lot of that in the bottom right,

00:56:28   like just seeing the tiny little icon, I recognize it,

00:56:31   but my feeling is that the description

00:56:33   and all the show notes take too many taps to get to.

00:56:36   - That's true.

00:56:37   And then the other thing that I'll just say is

00:56:39   their increased speed algorithm,

00:56:44   I don't know whether they put any work into it

00:56:46   or if they're just using core audio,

00:56:47   but it sounds like they're just using core audio,

00:56:50   which means even at every speed that's not 1X,

00:56:53   there are artifacts, it sounds weird.

00:56:56   So they have no silence trimming, like overcast, they have no, like pocketcast, no strip silence,

00:57:02   no, not strip silence, smart speed.

00:57:05   Nor are they making, as far as I can tell, an effort to really smooth out the sound when

00:57:11   you're playing at higher than 1x.

00:57:13   No volume boosting.

00:57:15   And I was listening to the Supertop podcast in Castro and it wasn't loud enough.

00:57:23   levels are too quiet on the show and I'm used to now overcast and pocketcasts, they have

00:57:31   audio boosting which that's actually really good because audio leveling is difficult to

00:57:37   do, lots of people get it right, lots of people get it wrong and it's nice when an application

00:57:42   can kind of just give it a kick up and help you.

00:57:46   Especially because really the iPhone doesn't go that loud, like the maximum volume of the

00:57:50   the iPhone is sometimes not loud enough and applications that help boost the audio is

00:57:56   good. So there's a couple of things.

00:57:57   So for me, the inability to have it sound good at a higher than 1x speed isn't the deal

00:58:02   breaker that makes me not want to use this app?

00:58:04   That's not my deal breaker, funnily enough. And I think that is the deal breaker for so

00:58:07   many people is that it doesn't have any smart speed stuff. I could let that go. So looking

00:58:15   Looking at Pocket Cast and Overcast, for me they're similar enough that it wasn't like

00:58:21   in my mind why would I have switched.

00:58:24   Pocket Cast is very nice and I like it a lot and it's great for cross platform but there

00:58:29   wasn't a one feature that it has that Overcast doesn't have and vice versa.

00:58:35   So for me it was just like wherever you fall in that is fine and it's like what is your

00:58:39   preferred design effectively.

00:58:42   Castro has the feature.

00:58:45   It has the feature that makes me want to move, which is the way that you do this stuff, right?

00:58:51   So it makes me want to switch because I love their main thinking about how you manage your

00:58:59   podcast queue.

00:59:01   But it doesn't have an iPad app.

00:59:03   That is my deal breaker.

00:59:05   There is no iPad application and I am an outlier here in that these days I'm mostly streaming

00:59:12   shows and I'm mostly listening on my iPads because I'm at home and I'm listening to my

00:59:16   podcasts the most and the iPads have such fantastic speakers I prefer to listen on those

00:59:23   than on my iPhone. Way louder, sounds incredible. All podcasts sound fantastic on the iPads

00:59:31   with the four speakers. It has no iPad app and because they have no apps on any other

00:59:37   platform they have no sync system so I can't even use the iPhone app on my iPad

00:59:42   because I can't keep them in sync right and I get why they don't have a sync

00:59:46   system why do they need it if it's just an iPhone app but I really want to see

00:59:50   an iPad application to this because I absolutely love their thinking and also

00:59:56   the design is great it looks great have you tried the dark and light mode

01:00:01   switching gesture yeah it's incredible like you just pull down from the two

01:00:06   fingers but it follows you and the design, the art, you can change the interface design

01:00:12   like the color of the interface like as you're moving your fingers up and down with the two

01:00:17   fingers it's incredible. That's a nice touch. Twitterific has that gesture but it doesn't,

01:00:24   it cross fades. It just does, like you do it once and it just switches on and off but

01:00:29   this is, it follows your fingers up and down. It's fantastic. It looks great. I love it.

01:00:34   Yeah, there are a lot of great things about it.

01:00:36   One's kind of selfish-y thing as a podcast producer. I think they really haven't done

01:00:40   a good job with the directory at all.

01:00:43   Yeah.

01:00:44   And I've spoken to Oisin about this, and they were like, "I hope he doesn't mind me saying

01:00:48   this." This was one thing that they just wanted to get out and they're going to work on it

01:00:52   later. But the directory, all it's doing is pulling from the iTunes top charts, which

01:00:56   I hate that. I hate that.

01:00:58   Yeah, I mean, I didn't want to go into that in the little article I wrote about it yesterday,

01:01:03   I'm a podcaster, it can come across as sour grapes, but I will say as a podcast listener,

01:01:09   their charts are the most boring charts. It is literally just, I mean, it's actually great

01:01:13   if you're somebody who's never listened to a podcast and want to know about what are

01:01:17   the most popular podcasts. It's every podcast you've ever heard of that you could name it.

01:01:22   If you're a podcast listener, you could write down 50 names and you would, and they would

01:01:27   be the 50 that are in there because it's just the most obvious ones.

01:01:31   - The server cast does a really good job

01:01:33   like with the social recommendations and stuff like that.

01:01:35   Pocket cast do a incredible job with their like curated,

01:01:39   they have someone who picks the stuff.

01:01:42   - I know, right?

01:01:42   - And puts it in there and highlights.

01:01:44   I think that they do a bit, in my opinion,

01:01:46   pocket cast does a better job than Apple does.

01:01:48   Sorry, sorry.

01:01:49   - I feel like there's something,

01:01:51   and I think Apple won't do this

01:01:52   because Apple would feel like they're making or breaking.

01:01:54   You know, that one of the reasons Apple takes a light touch

01:01:56   with a lot of the things we do,

01:01:58   we were talking about this last night,

01:01:59   that on not a podcast, in life, not available on iTunes.

01:02:03   - Only for members, if you find this in the corner.

01:02:05   - Like Apple is so, with Apple Music,

01:02:09   Apple is making these great decisions

01:02:11   about like what music to highlight

01:02:13   and building playlists and things like that,

01:02:14   and they do such a good job at that,

01:02:16   and yet on the App Store, they're afraid to play favorites

01:02:19   and have a point of view, and as a result,

01:02:21   App Store features and recommendations are kind of boring,

01:02:25   and I actually kind of wish they had more of a point of view

01:02:28   like Apple Music does. And with podcasts, I feel like it's the same way. It's like they

01:02:33   feel they're so powerful that they don't want to play favorites too much. They have features

01:02:37   and stuff like that. I feel like there's an opportunity for someone somehow to do something

01:02:42   with podcasts probably needs to be in association with an app. Because I've thought about doing

01:02:48   this and I don't have the time to do it, but I wonder if there's somebody who could do

01:02:54   a really good pick list and a custom playlist of podcast episodes. Some people have tried

01:03:01   it on blogs and stuff like that, but I just wonder if there's something there, because

01:03:04   curated podcasting and curated podcast episodes is something that is going to happen and kind

01:03:11   of needs to happen, but it's just not there.

01:03:13   And it would really work for Castro because they do a better job than any app that I've

01:03:16   seen of adding one episode of one show.

01:03:19   Right.

01:03:20   you can search in the list and when you go in on the directories that see they have all the

01:03:26   underpinnings of a great directory just the face of it is not good because if you click into a show

01:03:30   you can view every episode they show the first one on the last one you can expand them look at them

01:03:35   all and then add that one individual show to your queue list at the top or bottom but you don't then

01:03:41   subscribe to the show you just get that one episode like Marco does this with Overcast but you end up

01:03:46   with that show, always living in there. Yeah, it's like a little phantom show that you're

01:03:50   not subscribed to, but it lives in the list. And I don't like that. I agree with you. So,

01:03:55   one of the reasons I knew this was happening is when I did my export to Castro, I was subscribed

01:04:01   to a bunch of, I was like, "What is this?" It's because I added that one episode. Yeah,

01:04:05   so imagine something that's kind of like the Castro inbox, that is somebody's opinionated

01:04:11   and have multiple ones of these available, somebody's opinionated list of podcast episodes

01:04:17   that they think are worth listening to.

01:04:19   Because as well, one of the--

01:04:20   And then you graze through that and go, "Yes, yes, yes."

01:04:21   It could really work with all the stuff that Cash Show's doing, because when you star an

01:04:25   episode, you have a hall of fame, basically. In the application, there is a, "Here are

01:04:30   all the episodes you've starred." So like Marco does the recommend. I would love to

01:04:35   see all of the shows I've ever recommended. And another thing I like in Cash Show is they

01:04:39   They have a history, so you can click the history

01:04:41   and see every show you ever listened to.

01:04:43   Again, it's like all this stuff is like,

01:04:45   they have built the underpinnings of a,

01:04:48   what I think, if they continue going down this road,

01:04:51   they're able to go cross-platform eventually.

01:04:53   I know this stuff is hard to do.

01:04:54   - It's hard, yeah.

01:04:55   - They could be, I think, sitting on the best app.

01:04:59   But they've got, to get there,

01:05:02   they have a lot of work ahead of them.

01:05:03   - And all of these apps have made their choices, right?

01:05:06   So none of them is perfect.

01:05:09   All of them have, like Castro has made these choices

01:05:12   about what they want to be good at,

01:05:13   but then they're not on the iPad and they don't sync

01:05:16   and they aren't cross platform.

01:05:17   Overcast Marco has focused on audio stuff

01:05:20   and he was miles ahead of everybody else

01:05:23   by focusing on volume boost, smart speed

01:05:25   and his deconstructing his audio player

01:05:29   so that when it plays at high speed, it sounds listenable.

01:05:31   I never listened to podcasts faster than 1X

01:05:34   before Overcast because it sounded terrible to me.

01:05:38   Just the artifacts, not the speed of it,

01:05:41   the artifacts made it sound terrible.

01:05:42   - And they're using the crackling.

01:05:44   - And then--

01:05:45   - Pocket Caster basically built the great feature set

01:05:50   everywhere, that's their thing.

01:05:52   They have an incredible application on all platforms,

01:05:56   including the web, right?

01:05:57   That is their thing.

01:05:59   And no one, I don't think there will ever be

01:06:02   another company that can touch them.

01:06:03   So push all of that stuff together

01:06:06   and you've got the perfect podcast client maybe,

01:06:09   but instead, and that's why innovation,

01:06:11   to take this all the way back around and wrap it up.

01:06:14   That's why innovation is important.

01:06:16   I saw Marco Arment comment about this today.

01:06:18   We'd liken it to the Twitter UI playground thing

01:06:21   that Gruber said way back when,

01:06:23   and it's definitely true that you're seeing it in podcasts.

01:06:25   And what Marco said was,

01:06:26   this is what happens when you have open standards.

01:06:28   When you have open standards like RSS for podcasts,

01:06:31   you get different takes on the interface for it instead of a single take from a single

01:06:35   platform vendor. And that's the beauty of the way that this is working is you can have

01:06:41   Castro with a completely different take on podcasting than Overcast and PocketCasts.

01:06:46   And I hope it continues. I mean, they experimented with a patronage model for Castro 1.5. This

01:06:51   one is no in-app purchase. It's $5 to get it.

01:06:54   Just go buy it and play with it.

01:06:56   If you love podcasts, you should probably buy it and play with it because even if you

01:06:59   decide not to keep using it you will have supported the development of

01:07:02   innovative podcast apps and I think that that's good for all podcasts.

01:07:07   I'll tell you, PocketCasts and Overcast, you will see and this is not, I'm not

01:07:12   saying anything negative about them, this is how it works. This is why

01:07:16   PocketCasts has features that were inspired by Overcast.

01:07:19   PocketCasts and Overcast will have features inspired by Castro at some

01:07:22   point because you can't not look at that and go, "Oh wow, that's a really good..." and

01:07:27   even if it's not the same, even if it just spurs Russell and Marco and anybody else who's

01:07:33   developing podcast apps, just spurs them to think, "How would I do that? What problem

01:07:37   are they solving and how would I solve that?" That's good for all the podcast apps and the

01:07:42   more diversity of innovation and applications and points of view onto something like podcast

01:07:51   apps or any other thing, it makes the whole ecosystem stronger.

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01:09:59   says it all it's not like lasers or Myke was right or anything like that just upgrade upgrade

01:10:06   it's the way to go so last week we spoke about um some interviews that apple were doing with the

01:10:11   press and this there's more this week tim cook did a much larger interview with washington post yeah

01:10:20   why are they doing these right now so i have i have three potential reasons some theories and

01:10:28   and I want to see what your thoughts on them are.

01:10:31   It's Tim's five years as CEO.

01:10:34   - Yeah.

01:10:35   - It is the five year anniversary of Steve Jobs' passing.

01:10:38   - Yep.

01:10:39   - And they're trying to steer the narrative

01:10:41   post two bad earnings calls.

01:10:43   - Yeah.

01:10:44   - I think it's a combination of all three of those things.

01:10:47   - I think that's exactly it.

01:10:49   I think it's a slow news month,

01:10:52   so they have a receptive audience in journalists.

01:10:56   - And nothing to give them.

01:10:57   and nothing to give them.

01:10:58   Prepping for, I think they're laying the groundwork

01:11:02   for September because they want to get out

01:11:07   their own narrative, which is that Apple's just fine.

01:11:10   Which, I mean, honestly, Apple is fine.

01:11:12   It's interesting because they're trying to combat

01:11:16   some of the kind of bearishness on Apple

01:11:19   based on those results.

01:11:21   I think that's part of it.

01:11:22   I think the five years as CEO is part of it.

01:11:25   And so, yes, I think it's all those things.

01:11:30   I think, I don't think Apple is super actively combating

01:11:35   this Apple is doomed narrative

01:11:37   because the Apple is doomed narrative's always been there

01:11:39   and it's kind of dumb.

01:11:41   And it's always been dumb.

01:11:43   Since Jobs came back, it was doomed, almost doomed in '97.

01:11:47   But I mean, it's been dumb,

01:11:48   very dumb for a very long time.

01:11:50   So I think it's all of those things.

01:11:53   I think this is also Steve Dowling,

01:11:55   the new head of PR at Apple. Trying new stuff, like trying different stuff. This is something

01:12:01   that if you're viewing this from a Katie Cotton perspective, not to get all insider-y on you,

01:12:06   but Katie Cotton was the head of all PR and marketing, or you know, all PR and communications,

01:12:13   working for working directly for Steve, I think, not even working for Phil. And if she

01:12:18   was working for Phil, she was still working directly for Steve, let's be honest. That's

01:12:22   my understanding is that Katie really worked closely with Steve. So Steve Dowling is now

01:12:27   in charge, who was head of corporate PR, which was more like handling Steve Jobs and other

01:12:34   executives and not the product PR. And he and Natalie Karras, who was the head of product

01:12:40   PR, both vied to get this job. And Steve Dowling got it. Natalie Karras left, went to Twitter.

01:12:45   She's now left Twitter. She's now on a vacation in Italy, which is a good career move there

01:12:51   to want us late like take take some time go to Italy that's beautiful so so Steve Dowling

01:12:57   is now in charge and I don't know you're in charge of something like Apple PR and you've watched

01:13:05   how it worked under Katie and with Steve Jobs and now you've got Tim and an opening you know a

01:13:12   feeling of let's try different things let's be different let's we can grow and change and you

01:13:17   and you want to make your own mark. And we've seen it in how Apple does events. I mean,

01:13:22   in so many different ways, Apple has thrown away their old rule book for dealing with

01:13:26   the public and the press. So why not this stuff, right? So I think if you were to bring

01:13:31   it back around, if you were looking at this under the Katie Cotton playbook, you would

01:13:34   be like, oh, geez, what are they? All of this is super tactical. They are very specifically

01:13:39   addressing certain things. Maybe they're trying to exact revenge on certain news organizations

01:13:45   that they're not going to give this to. I mean you could come up with a whole list of

01:13:48   things that Apple used to do. I don't know if any of those are really accurate. I think

01:13:53   this is a, you know, let's keep ourselves in the public eye. We've got some, we've got

01:13:57   a quiet month to make some noise about how great we are. We do want to offset some of

01:14:02   the feelings about Apple that are negative. Although again, I think that was much more

01:14:08   true after the previous quarterly earnings and not this most recent one because the stock

01:14:12   actually did okay. I think the narrative isn t as brutal for Apple as it was three months

01:14:18   ago where people did that one report and the stock result and freaked out. So, I don t

01:14:25   know. Yeah, I think it s a combination of all those things. I m much actually I m much

01:14:28   less interested in the Kremlinology of this than just in the fact that we got in the Washington

01:14:32   Post story. We got some interesting bits from Tim. I mean, he s super on message and yet

01:14:39   But between this and the Fast Company story, I mean, there was good stuff.

01:14:44   I think this Washington Post story was a better read than the Fast Company story.

01:14:47   There was more information in this one.

01:14:49   The Fast Company story was more like a little story that was being told.

01:14:53   The Fast Company story was a better story for people who don't know a lot about Apple

01:15:00   and wanted to get sort of some reassurance about like, "Apple's fine, here's what it's

01:15:04   like at Apple, isn't this cool?"

01:15:05   Washington Post story is, which is funny because Fast Company is a business publication, you'd

01:15:10   expect that these would be reversed and the Washington Post would be the one. When I said

01:15:15   reversed, Myke and I both did a little hand gesture of flipping our fingers opposite direction.

01:15:20   It probably happens all the time, but we can't see it when we're not in person. Washington

01:15:24   Post story is much more nitty-gritty with tidbits about what Apple's doing than the

01:15:30   Fast Company story was. So that Fast Company was more of a gloss, and this is, I mean,

01:15:35   down to the point where she's got like four or five paragraphs and then it's just like

01:15:39   here's the Q&A and it just drops into a Q&A of like let's just here's what Tim Cook said.

01:15:44   Pure like information. Yeah. Right. So there isn't really anything new here but it's interesting

01:15:51   to hear Tim's words on something. It's all the color, the details. Yep. That's where

01:15:57   it gets interesting because all of this, because they're never going to say anything secret,

01:16:01   All of this is about what they're emphasizing, what the details are, and how we can read

01:16:07   that to make us understand what they're thinking.

01:16:10   Like there was a bunch of stuff about tax reform, which I found fascinating because

01:16:15   Apple is in such a unique and weird position when it comes to taxes.

01:16:19   They appear to be, and they say they are following the laws, but the laws are fundamentally weird

01:16:25   and broken.

01:16:26   Yeah.

01:16:27   And they don't deny that, which I think is an interesting take.

01:16:28   Cook testified before Congress. He said as much. And I think that's a really interesting

01:16:33   take that Apple has.

01:16:34   Lewis: Yeah, it's like, we're taking advantage of the legal loopholes that you have allowed

01:16:37   to be created because of the bad corporation tax rules in America.

01:16:41   O'Reilly: And you should probably fix them.

01:16:42   Lewis; And we'll bring our money back.

01:16:43   O'Reilly; And that's part of their argument is, we pay billions of dollars in taxes. I

01:16:47   think they said we're the largest taxpayer in the United States.

01:16:50   Lewis; Which doesn't, I mean, that's logical because they make the most money.

01:16:53   - Right, right, but it's like, you know,

01:16:55   there is a feeling like the big companies

01:16:58   and rich people often are the ones

01:17:00   who are best equipped to avoid paying tax,

01:17:03   and then everybody else pays the tax,

01:17:04   but Apple's saying, "No, no, we pay the tax."

01:17:06   And then, again, I like that Tim Cook is not just saying,

01:17:09   "Look, do what you want.

01:17:10   "If you change the rules, we'll follow the new rules."

01:17:13   He's like, "No, you should change the rules."

01:17:15   And one of those arguments is about repatriating money,

01:17:18   bringing that money back to the US from overseas,

01:17:22   And their argument is, we made that money overseas,

01:17:25   we could leave it overseas.

01:17:27   If you change the tax law to make it more reasonable

01:17:30   for us to bring it home,

01:17:31   we could bring it home and spend it at home.

01:17:33   So his argument is, this is essentially the quid pro quo,

01:17:38   which is if you change the tax law

01:17:41   so it isn't ridiculously expensive

01:17:43   for us to bring our money back,

01:17:45   then we'll bring the money back.

01:17:46   And when we bring the money here, we spend it here.

01:17:48   So that's the benefit to the United States, is you may not get as much tax as you would

01:17:54   if we brought it back, but below a certain point we'll bring it back.

01:17:57   And above a certain point, we're just never going to bring it back home.

01:18:00   So it's negotiating and all of that.

01:18:03   What I find really fascinating, read between the lines, and he said this before, is there

01:18:06   will be tax reform in 2017.

01:18:08   And I get the sense that, because we know he's politically well-connected, he did the

01:18:12   fundraiser for Paul Ryan, he's doing a fundraiser for Hillary Clinton, I think Tim Cook has

01:18:18   has been told in Washington off the record by Democrats and Republicans that there's

01:18:24   totally a deal that's going to be done here after the presidential election.

01:18:27   I think Tim is telling the presidential candidates that there will be tax reform in 2017.

01:18:33   No I think he knows.

01:18:35   Tim Cook is one of the most powerful men in the world.

01:18:37   I think he's heard from the – I think when he went to Washington he heard from the people

01:18:42   in Washington that once this presidential election is over, they will, no matter who

01:18:48   wins, they will do something to address the tax stuff. It sounds like both parties, what

01:18:53   he said is, both parties are actually interested in fixing this messed up tax code stuff. And

01:19:01   then in Europe, I don't know enough about the European policy stuff, but he painted

01:19:05   that, and this may be disingenuous or it may be completely legit, the way he portrayed

01:19:10   that whole thing about the European Union and Ireland's tax code is he said look they're

01:19:15   not even arguing about how much tax we should pay they're arguing about who gets the money.

01:19:19   So let them squabble about that which I thought was an interesting take on that.

01:19:23   It seems like from reading that and the little I know about it this is a problem between

01:19:27   Ireland and the European Union as opposed to Apple and the European Union. But the European

01:19:32   Union think that Ireland gave Apple a special deal which Tim is denying.

01:19:36   Yeah, yeah that sounds about right.

01:19:39   So I want to touch on a few other things that he mentioned.

01:19:41   Social responsibility.

01:19:43   This is, I've mentioned this before about how I believe Apple Incorporated to be a better

01:19:47   company under Tim Cook than it was under Steve Jobs.

01:19:52   Take out the products, all of that stuff, like just as a company, as a thing in the

01:19:56   world that you do better, their environmental stuff is better.

01:20:01   He touches a lot on coming out as being gay and talking about the importance of all of

01:20:05   that.

01:20:06   things are Apple as a company and how they show themselves to the world and I think Tim

01:20:11   does an incredible job of that. You know, things like, they didn't mention this, but

01:20:15   when he changed the employee contributions program for charities and stuff, like it didn't

01:20:19   really exist before and Tim did a lot of these things. And you talk about that, they talk

01:20:23   about the billionth iPhone as well and it's fun to me that throughout the interview that

01:20:27   the iPhone is sitting on Tim's desk. What are they going to do with that? Does he keep

01:20:31   that? They've put like a Kincaid in something?

01:20:34   put that in the Apple Museum that they're building on the new campus.

01:20:41   Yeah, but right now it just sits on his desk. It's a paperweight.

01:20:44   Yeah.

01:20:45   I want to, and now I have like a bunch of quotes that I want to read because I just

01:20:48   think they're interesting.

01:20:49   Okay.

01:20:50   So on earnings, we got 60 billion in revenue and they said you can't grow anymore from

01:20:54   this. Well, last year we were 230 billion and yes, we're coming down some this year.

01:20:59   Every year isn't an up. I've heard it all before. In today's products, we have services

01:21:04   which over the last 12 months grew about 4 billion

01:21:06   to over 23 billion.

01:21:08   Next year we said it's gonna be a Fortune 100 company.

01:21:10   So there's a couple of things here.

01:21:12   I don't recall those numbers, 4 billion, 23 billion,

01:21:14   like kind of putting them in that context

01:21:17   is really interesting.

01:21:18   And I just love the quote of like,

01:21:21   every year is an up, you know, I've heard this all before.

01:21:24   How candid he is and kind of just like flippant

01:21:27   is very interesting to me.

01:21:29   That is a confident CEO in the future of his company.

01:21:33   They're like, "Yeah, it goes up and down,

01:21:34   "but the thing was, we went up, up, up, up, up, up

01:21:37   "for longer than anybody else has.

01:21:39   "Now we're just gonna be in the up and down period."

01:21:41   And I can get on board with that, right?

01:21:43   Like if he's thinking that way, it's like,

01:21:44   yeah, now they're running like any company does,

01:21:47   but they've established that their kind of regular position

01:21:52   is monstrously higher than anybody else's.

01:21:56   They got to that now,

01:21:57   and now they're gonna go up and down a bit.

01:21:58   - And it's repositioning

01:22:00   as they're not an exponential growth company anymore.

01:22:02   they were for five years or four years. And now they're a regular company that's growing

01:22:06   and not -- they're not -- I think part of this and maybe one of the messages that they're

01:22:10   trying to sell now in terms of the narrative is, look, as we know, as anyone who reads

01:22:16   the McElope knows, people have been saying that Apple is one step away from doom for

01:22:22   a decade now. It's always -- those people always -- they never understood Apple. They've

01:22:27   never understood Apple's customers. Now there are more Apple customers than ever before.

01:22:31   don't understand them. They figure at some point everybody's going to wake up from their

01:22:34   days and they're going to stop buying Apple products and finally Apple will be exposed

01:22:39   as a company that makes no product that anyone actually wants or needs. Those people are

01:22:44   deluded but they have been continually deluded for decades and they will continue to be.

01:22:49   So when Apple sales go down, in their mind it fits the narrative that they want to believe

01:22:55   more than any other, which is it will continue to go down until Apple is gone, because Apple

01:23:02   doesn't make sense to them, and they don't know why anyone would buy their products.

01:23:06   Now, what Apple's doing here is the counter-narrative, which is, yeah, we're not going down. In fact,

01:23:13   we're still going up. We just, you know, we're down over last year, but the trend is positive,

01:23:18   and we're fine. And the truth is, that's what, that's where we are, is Apple's going to continue

01:23:24   to have huge profits and okay growth, but the smartphone exponential growth period is

01:23:32   over and that's okay. And so in some ways they just want to steady, they want to just

01:23:38   send the message, things are good. We're steady, you know, we steady the ship, things are fine.

01:23:42   Yeah, we went down from last year, but things are fine because the one narrative out there

01:23:46   that I think they just want to combat is the Apple's going down like Apple going down from

01:23:52   last year is the start of a crash. And I think nobody legitimately believes that other than

01:23:56   these kind of nutty people on the side who, you know, but still, I think it's worth saying

01:24:02   because it's very easy for somebody not educated in Apple's business or this industry to hear

01:24:07   something like that and think, "Oh, I hear Apple's really having problems." And they're

01:24:10   not. They're not having problems. They're making billions and billions and billions

01:24:14   of dollars every quarter. They could subsist on their cash hoard alone for a decade or

01:24:22   two at their current rate of spend. So it's fine.

01:24:27   On the iPad Pro, what we saw in this past quarter is that about half the people who

01:24:31   are buying one are using it at work. We have an enormous opportunity in enterprise. That

01:24:36   is a repositioning of the iPad.

01:24:38   Yeah.

01:24:39   In a very interesting way.

01:24:42   been talking up their IBM relationship and the Fortune 500 relationship. I think what

01:24:49   features... Is it repositioning or is it that it's the only good news they've got? I don't

01:24:54   know. I mean, I feel like if you feel that this product is working in the enterprise,

01:24:59   what do you add to this product to make it work better in the enterprise? That's true.

01:25:03   In terms of prioritizing where you take the product, I think that's absolutely true. And

01:25:07   I wonder what that's going to look like over the next couple of years. I think that they've

01:25:10   made there, because you know in that GoMa report as well apparently Apple Research have

01:25:15   nailed that it's a three year cycle now. That's new information.

01:25:19   Yeah that was new.

01:25:20   So that coupled with this, I wonder where that takes the iPad.

01:25:24   Well I think it's good news for anybody who uses the iPad to get work done because even

01:25:28   if we're not in enterprise I feel like you know people like us who use the iPad to get

01:25:33   work done, more features that help business productivity on the iPad is good for you and

01:25:39   me and anybody else who's like us. So that's, that's, yeah, I mean as it should be. And

01:25:44   there, there, I mean I know he's, he's always talking up his Fortune 500 and...

01:25:52   That's his world man.

01:25:53   And IBM and all of those things.

01:25:54   Like he even mentioned it like when he said about writing his op-ed about coming out and

01:25:59   he said, "I wanted to put it in a business publication because that's what I know."

01:26:02   Yeah.

01:26:03   And I love that because it was a kind of, where was it in, was it?

01:26:06   It was Bloomberg.

01:26:07   Bloomberg.

01:26:08   Businessweek.

01:26:09   Weird place to put it.

01:26:10   But it's like for him, it's like, "That's me."

01:26:12   Well, he wanted the context of, "I'm a businessman first."

01:26:15   It was kind of cool.

01:26:16   I like that whole section where he's talking about that, talking about getting advice.

01:26:19   He talks about where he gets advice from people, and he's talking about like calling other

01:26:24   CEOs, calling previous presidents.

01:26:26   It's like, I just wonder how those calls go, because he doesn't even really know some of

01:26:29   these people.

01:26:30   It's like, "Hi, I'm CEO, your CEO.

01:26:32   Can we talk about Congress, please?"

01:26:34   Yeah, talk about your humble brag, right? It's like, who do you call for advice? He's

01:26:42   like, "Well, you know, I called Warren Buffett, I called Bill Clinton."

01:26:45   It's like, it's such a weird thing, but he talks about how it can be lonely to be CEO.

01:26:52   I totally get that, because everyone he works with, a lot of his friends work for him, and

01:27:01   must be a real weird feeling and so he talks to these other CEOs, strange.

01:27:06   Well when you're in charge, the biggest company in the world?

01:27:09   Well regardless, a big company, small company, small division, whatever it is, like you have

01:27:16   no peers at your, in your group. So as a, as the editorial director at IDG right, I

01:27:25   had no peers in my group. I had peers in my company who were like the head of sales and

01:27:31   the head of HR and the head of development. I had a boss which Tim Cook doesn t have other

01:27:37   than the board. But he was the CEO and he was, you know, those CEOs were all from sales

01:27:43   backgrounds anyway. So, I had at the end, the last couple of years, I had a boss who

01:27:48   was group editorial director at IDG and he came from the enterprise side. That was at

01:27:53   least that was actually kind of cool because I could talk to him about stuff and it was

01:27:56   a little less lonely to be honest. But when you're in that position where everybody in

01:28:01   the group that you live in every day, the fishbowl you swim in every day is somebody

01:28:05   who works for you. It is. It is. It is. It puts you apart from them in some ways. You

01:28:12   can't just throw around wacky ideas about ways to completely deconstruct your business

01:28:18   because it directly affects them and they worry, oh crap, am I going to lose my job

01:28:22   or whatever. It is an isolating position to be at the top of any little ecosystem, any

01:28:31   little bubble. So if you're Tim, yeah, you're at Apple and you're the CEO and who are your

01:28:39   peers? And so, yeah, I think it's actually kind of great that he does have people he

01:28:43   can reach out to even if it is like, "I'm going to get Warren Buffett on the phone here."

01:28:48   But at least it's, you know, does he call up the CEO at IBM and talk to her about what's

01:28:53   going on there and yeah, call Bill Clinton, see what's going on there.

01:28:59   I don't know.

01:29:00   But he's right.

01:29:01   I like, it humanizes him but also from a business perspective, that is a relevant thing.

01:29:05   It's like who does he talk to because in the end he has to make those decisions.

01:29:11   He can talk to Phil Schiller and he can talk to Craig Federighi and you know, he can talk

01:29:15   to all the people at Apple, but in the end he has to make that decision, the decisions,

01:29:19   and that's lonely too.

01:29:21   Talking about Steve, there's some just really heavy emotional stuff. When I first took the

01:29:31   job as CEO, I actually thought that Steve would be here for a long time. I'd really

01:29:34   convinced myself, and though this sounds probably bizarre at this point, but I convinced myself

01:29:38   that he would bounce because he always did.

01:29:41   You can see that in the wording of the-- I was looking at that note the other week, the

01:29:46   Apple press release, where Steve basically says, "I'm gonna-- the time has come for me

01:29:51   to step back from this, but I'm gonna be around as the chairman."

01:29:55   And at the time, we were all like, "Oh boy, how sick is this guy?"

01:30:01   And then when he died, we're like, "Oh, you know, they must have known."

01:30:04   But this actually explains why that language was that way, is that Steve was getting sicker

01:30:11   but that the people at Apple and probably Steve

01:30:14   Felt or hoped that this would be another one because he obviously had had this before where he'd really kind of gone down and then bounced

01:30:21   Back and gotten better and they expected that he would bounce like he says I'd convinced myself

01:30:26   I know it sounds bizarre

01:30:27   But I convinced myself he would bounce because he always did they they felt like they were on a cycle where Steve would get sicker

01:30:32   And they would work on it and he would get better and they figured that would happen again

01:30:35   And in this case it didn't happen when you look at someone like him

01:30:40   him, you can see why people just considered he was superhuman.

01:30:45   Yeah, how could you imagine? I mean, we think about that and didn't know him. The people

01:30:49   who work with him, his friends... Steve Jobs doesn't die.

01:30:52   ...had to think, Steve Jobs is never going to die. Like, he will fight it, he will figure

01:30:57   it out, he has all of the world's resources to figure this out. He's a tough guy, he's

01:31:02   never going to succumb to this. And I'm sure that they told themselves that.

01:31:07   was an original of a species I never viewed that as my role to be Steve I

01:31:11   think I would have been it would I think it would have been treacherous thing if I

01:31:15   would have tried to do it yeah to try and be Steve and yeah he could original

01:31:20   of a species is like the best way I have ever heard Steve Jobs described because

01:31:26   he was and anyone trying to be him never would have worked and I think that that

01:31:32   is like just the perfect way to describe that.

01:31:34   - So at the iPod photo event at the California theater

01:31:39   in San Jose where U2 or at least Bono and Edge performed,

01:31:46   they were the How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb album

01:31:51   was out that were promoting that with the U2 iPod

01:31:54   and all of that and they performed a song

01:31:57   from the new album and Steve Jobs introduced them

01:31:59   and said, "This is my favorite song on that new album. It's so great." And that song was

01:32:04   original of the species. So this is a U2 reference that Tim is making here, whether he knows

01:32:09   it or not. That was the song that Steve Jobs said, "This is the best. This is my..." And

01:32:16   so when I saw that, I was like, "Wow, that's a U2 reference there that's happening."

01:32:22   I mean, is Worded, weirdly, original of a species?

01:32:25   Yeah. Probably is. That's nice. I hope that's the reference.

01:32:28   got to be. I mean, that's I think how that phrase got to him was because I think when

01:32:33   every time I hear that song, I think this is Steve Jobs' favorite song on that album.

01:32:40   But yeah, I love the self-awareness of Tim Cook here because you get to that point, you're

01:32:45   exalted, you're going to become the CEO of Apple. I suppose it's possible that you could

01:32:49   go on an ego trip and think I'm going to try to be Steve Jobs. And it takes some discipline

01:32:54   to recognize that you're not that guy and you're never going to be that guy and you

01:32:57   need to do something different. And that's why Tim Cook was the right selection to be

01:33:02   CEO, is that he knew he couldn't be Steve. And who's going to follow Steve? It needs

01:33:05   to be somebody who's not like Steve, right? Anybody, Scott Forstall, who seemed to fancy

01:33:12   himself like a mini Steve, or whether it's somebody from the outside, an Elon Musk kind

01:33:17   of character, or Larry Ellison, people who are sort of like Steve Jobs in a way. Nobody's

01:33:21   like Steve Jobs, but sort of like Steve Jobs, exactly the wrong person to lead Apple after

01:33:26   Steve Jobs. Just go the other way. Get somebody like Tim who knows he's not Steve, who's going

01:33:31   to surround himself with people to support him and do, you know, the other parts of the

01:33:35   job that he can't do. It was a good thing and I'm glad to, it's nice to see the color

01:33:41   we get from him here about how he knew that couldn't be his role.

01:33:44   Last thing I want to touch on, the FBI. There were just a bunch of quotes in here coming

01:33:49   directly from Tim, which were, okay, I'll read them. "Could we create a tool to unlock

01:33:55   the phone. After a few days we had determined yes we could. Then the question was, ethically

01:34:04   should we? We thought, you know, that depends on whether we could contain it or not. Other

01:34:09   people were involved in this too, deep security experts and so forth, and it was apparent

01:34:14   from those discussions that we couldn't be assured. It became clear that the trade-off,

01:34:19   so to speak, was essentially putting hundreds of millions of people at risk for a phone

01:34:24   that may or may not have anything on it. This is my favorite line. "There are 200 plus

01:34:30   other countries in the world. Zero of them had ever asked this." Wow. What an indictment

01:34:40   of the FBI.

01:34:41   Yeah. That's, that's, I mean, it's, it's not anything that they haven't argued before,

01:34:48   but you're hearing it here in his own words when things have cooled down a little bit.

01:34:51   words right like yeah he can just Tim Cook has a way of just like cutting

01:34:56   straight to the core of what he says yeah it's like the FBI thought that

01:35:01   unlike any other country in the world the FBI thought that it was their right

01:35:05   to demand that Apple engineer software to break its own security and he also

01:35:13   said what you didn't quote there is is we it probably didn't have anything on

01:35:19   it and in fact we knew that it was extremely unlikely based on what else we knew that it

01:35:24   had anything on it.

01:35:25   Yeah, that what else we just because I said about the partners like whether or not it

01:35:29   had anything on it but what else we knew what that is.

01:35:33   They may have known it may be that they knew more that isn't widely known my guess is that

01:35:37   it's more that they knew that there was another iPhone that was the personal iPhone that had

01:35:41   been wiped and that this one was this one was a different model that they hadn't seen

01:35:46   a backup in a while.

01:35:47   - I think that they probably looked

01:35:48   at the iCloud backup as well.

01:35:50   - And they were skeptical that it had anything in it,

01:35:52   that they knew that this was a phone that was not used

01:35:54   because they were using their personal phone

01:35:56   for all of their terrorist stuff.

01:35:58   - My take on it is they'd worked with the FBI already

01:35:59   to analyze an iCloud backup that was like a week old,

01:36:02   and they knew that it was extremely unlikely

01:36:04   that anything new was added within a week of that device,

01:36:07   which is why it wasn't needed to be there.

01:36:09   But just like, unpopular opinion as not an American.

01:36:14   You know you're saying about like the FBI feeling

01:36:16   they can just demand this. That is the view that the rest of the world has on

01:36:20   America like that the American kind of idea with this stuff it's just that you

01:36:25   can ask and get anything yeah like from a political level and like this is

01:36:29   showing that like the American law enforcement agency believed they could

01:36:33   just ask for this and be given it and I think thankfully Apple said no because

01:36:41   we've touched on this a million times but that affects me in the United

01:36:45   Kingdom when it shouldn't. It has nothing to do with me, it's not my country. So yeah,

01:36:52   I'm really pleased that they went the way that they did. But yeah, fantastic interview,

01:36:57   really great insight and information coming from the man himself. I think they did a really

01:37:01   really good job of it. Alright we've been running along, should we do a couple of quick

01:37:04   Ask Upgrades before we finish out today's live and in person episode?

01:37:08   [

01:37:08   - (imitates air whooshing)

01:37:09   - Reed asked, "What do you do of your iPhone or Apple boxes?

01:37:13   "Do you keep them?"

01:37:14   Reed recently moved and had to get rid of some of them.

01:37:17   I got rid of a bunch of mine a little while ago

01:37:20   and I opened a cupboard a couple of days ago

01:37:21   and found all my old iPhone boxes in it.

01:37:23   Like I got rid of a bunch of other product boxes.

01:37:26   When we move, I'm probably gonna throw them out,

01:37:28   but I have every single box of iPhone all the way through.

01:37:32   - I say the ones where I have them,

01:37:37   Especially the ones that are Apple anything I've got that's an Apple loaner

01:37:40   I have to keep those boxes around and then I ship them back to Apple in the box

01:37:43   The ones that are mine

01:37:45   I keep them until I get rid of the phone and then I usually get rid of them or I've had them for a year

01:37:49   or two

01:37:50   Special ones I say like I saved the original iPod box. I've got that

01:37:54   But most of them I just sort of keep I keep it for a little while and then when I've decided that it's sort of been

01:38:04   Ridiculously long then I get rid of them

01:38:06   I don't, it's more clutter, I'm not a, I don't really want more clutter in my life and I find the,

01:38:11   I find the hardware much more compelling than the box. So I know people who save the boxes forever,

01:38:19   I know people who compulsively save all their product boxes because they often will resell them

01:38:24   after a year or two and they want to do it in the original box because they feel it gives the

01:38:28   product more value to sell it that way. I don't know people that will collect 13 different colors

01:38:34   of iMac which you can see behind me. Yeah, I can see right behind you now. Yeah, I just

01:38:38   don't have, honestly my house isn't very big. I live in the San Francisco Bay area. I have

01:38:44   a very small house with not a lot of storage space and I'm not interested in renting a

01:38:48   storage locker to keep Apple product boxes in so generally they don't last very long.

01:38:53   And Nate asked, we get lots of flavors of this question, I'm not sure I'm a pro user

01:38:58   but I need a new iPad. Should I go for a 9.7 inch iPad Pro or hold out for the iPad Mini

01:39:03   It says 128 gigabyte or bust.

01:39:06   If you want 128 gigabyte,

01:39:08   I don't know if you're ever gonna get that in the mini,

01:39:10   not ever, I don't think you're gonna get that

01:39:11   in the mini for a while.

01:39:12   My feeling is the iPad mini 5 won't come out

01:39:16   until next year, as we touched on this earlier.

01:39:19   - Yeah, maybe--

01:39:19   - I don't think it's gonna get stuff like True Tone.

01:39:22   - Maybe spring 2018, honestly,

01:39:24   until there's an iPad mini.

01:39:25   - I think that if you want an iPad right now,

01:39:27   you should probably get the iPad 7 and iPad Pro.

01:39:29   - I agree.

01:39:30   - 'Cause it looks so good, the screen is so good.

01:39:32   I'm looking at it right now in this room and I can tell that the True Tone is doing what

01:39:38   it does and the screen looks so good.

01:39:41   So I would recommend that.

01:39:42   Yeah I think so.

01:39:43   Alright, that wraps up this week's episode.

01:39:44   As we mentioned, the show will play out this week with our trailer for our members episode.

01:39:48   If you're not already a member, go to relay.fm/membership and you can sign up and you can become a Relay

01:39:53   FM member and you'll get all of our special member content that's coming out over August

01:39:58   and probably into early September because we have a lot of it to do including the Cortex upgrade.

01:40:03   Doesn't matter what membership level you choose, doesn't matter what shows or show you support,

01:40:09   you'll still get the feed. You can choose anything, you can support everything,

01:40:12   you can support upgrade, you can support anything you want, you can support clockwise.

01:40:16   It doesn't matter, you'll get the feed and you'll get all the shows, so go check that out.

01:40:19   If you want to find our show notes for this week, you can go to relay.fm/upgrades/102.

01:40:25   Thanks again to our sponsors, Smile and Squarespace.

01:40:29   If you want to find Jason online, he's at SixColors.com and he's at JasonL, J-S-N-E-L-L on Twitter.

01:40:35   I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:40:37   And we'll be back next week. Check out the other stuff we've got going on this week.

01:40:41   We've got Connected later on in the week, a relay FM Q&A, stuff like that.

01:40:44   So happy birthday to us.

01:40:46   Are we gonna high five?

01:40:48   We're gonna high five now.

01:40:49   Thanks for listening everyone. We'll be back next time.

01:40:52   Bye everybody.

01:40:53   I mean my instinct is to just kill him

01:40:58   And we have all six bullets Myke wins

01:41:03   You have died game over

01:41:08   Ray Myke welcome to six gun

01:41:19   Showdown you're fresh out of the drunk tank. You're standing in the rundown shack. Look around what's in this place is there a refrigerator?

01:41:25   You are in the Old West. I don't know what a refrigerator is

01:41:29   You see a broken bottle on the floor a hook a burlap sack you uses a bed

01:41:34   Tired and parched you sit down to rest a lizard runs over your foot looks up at you and says howdy partner

01:41:41   Surely that can't be right

01:41:44   (laughing)

01:41:46   - Blackjack is faster on the draw

01:41:51   and hurls his knife into your chest.

01:41:53   You have died.

01:41:54   - Yep.

01:41:55   - Would you like to load the game?

01:41:56   - Excellent, yep.

01:41:57   (upbeat music)

01:42:01   [Music]