95: Don't Bring the Pain without the Benefit


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode number 95.

00:00:13   Today's show is brought to you by the lovely folk over at Mail Route, Fresh Books and Ministry of Supply.

00:00:19   My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:23   Hi Myke, how are you feeling?

00:00:25   Pretty good my man, I clearly am still holding over some of this conference flu, but I'm

00:00:30   getting better, I'm getting better.

00:00:32   Alright, that's good, that's good.

00:00:34   I didn't get that this year, but I think that's home field advantage, that I, being from here

00:00:41   perhaps I'm in, these are my germs that I'm in, so I'm doing good, now you guys all have

00:00:47   my germs.

00:00:48   Well also, you don't spend as much time in and around the conference stuff as everybody

00:00:53   else does.

00:00:54   home every night, I'm not going to rent a giant expensive hotel room in San Francisco, so I come

00:01:00   home every night, so yeah, I'm not out super late and I'm sleeping in my own bed and eating my own

00:01:05   breakfast cereal and all those things. So I, my... - And then you don't sit in a metal tube for 10

00:01:10   hours. - And I don't sit in a metal tube, and yes. And of course, I also just walk around in a hazmat

00:01:16   suit. - That's the other thing. Yeah, if you've ever seen in June a guy in a hazmat suit in San

00:01:22   San Francisco. That is actually Jason. It's pretty weird. We all judge him for it, but

00:01:26   he does it anyway.

00:01:27   >> And I don't get sick.

00:01:29   >> This is probably a good move.

00:01:30   >> It's crazy like a fox, that's right.

00:01:32   >> Let me tell you something else that's crazy. Apple using the line, "There are a number

00:01:37   of great third-party options available for Mac users," in reference to them discontinuing

00:01:41   the Thunderbolt display last week. Kind of came out of nowhere. It seemed like they just

00:01:47   put out a press release to a few publications.

00:01:50   Yeah, gave a statement to a few people.

00:01:52   They gave a statement, look at that, very fancy.

00:01:55   Yeah.

00:01:56   Now, the conspiracy theory among us, me, would say that what we have here is Apple has discontinued

00:02:05   the Thunderbolt display as they intended to because they had a new display ready.

00:02:10   Yes.

00:02:11   But are not ready to announce a display yet.

00:02:13   And I've seen a couple of reports that, I think I saw John Pacowski say in a tweet,

00:02:19   tweet, not even a story, just in a tweet, like, there is a new Apple display, it does

00:02:24   have a GPU, and, you know, it will come at some point. And that is the rumor, is that

00:02:29   they have a fancy retina external display ready to go, but, um, you know.

00:02:34   >> They don't have the products to go with it. That's what I think.

00:02:37   >> Perhaps.

00:02:38   >> Is that it was ready, but they just didn't want to keep making this old one.

00:02:42   >> Or the design of that one is done, but they haven't made them yet. I mean, there's

00:02:46   sorts of production issues, especially if they're trying to orchestrate something where

00:02:49   there are new Macs and this new display and they all go together. But at some point you've

00:02:53   got to stop making this old display. I sort of feel like at some point they need to stop

00:02:56   making the old Mac Pros too, right? That at some point, why would we make any more of

00:03:02   these? How many can they be selling of a non-retina, you know, external display that's got the

00:03:07   old, it's got the old MagSafe on it so you have to use an adapter? I mean, it's unchanged

00:03:13   since it was released five years ago.

00:03:16   So, yeah, they make this statement about third-party options

00:03:20   'cause right now they don't have a replacement for it.

00:03:23   I don't know, I mean, of course,

00:03:24   there are third-party options.

00:03:26   I bought third-party displays.

00:03:29   Are there people out there who only ever buy

00:03:31   Apple branded displays?

00:03:32   - Definitely. - I don't know.

00:03:33   - Yes, there are definitely.

00:03:35   - I guess there are lots of--

00:03:37   - I think a lot of them write Apple focus websites.

00:03:39   - There are lots of good monitor options that are not,

00:03:42   Look, I used a Thunderbolt display at Macworld

00:03:45   for several years and I liked it a lot.

00:03:48   - Steven has one.

00:03:49   - And when I, well, yeah, his is dented now.

00:03:53   - Yeah, he dropped it off of bed.

00:03:54   - But when I set up my home office here,

00:03:58   before I got the iMac, I had a MacBook Air and I docked it.

00:04:02   And I had an external monitor on an arm

00:04:04   and I bought a Dell external monitor.

00:04:05   So it's like a way better deal than the Thunderbolt display

00:04:10   'cause Thunderbolt display was really expensive.

00:04:11   and even though I was replicating my setup from my office

00:04:14   in my home, there was no way I was gonna buy

00:04:16   a Thunderbolt display.

00:04:17   - Yeah, when I had that short-lived Mac Pro,

00:04:19   I bought one of the Dell 20 something,

00:04:23   maybe it was 23, I think, inch monitors,

00:04:27   and I was really happy with that.

00:04:29   There was no way that I was gonna fork out the money

00:04:33   for one of these things.

00:04:34   It just doesn't make sense to me.

00:04:36   - Yeah.

00:04:36   - It was, what's it grand?

00:04:37   It was like, you know, that's a lot of money

00:04:40   for a display man.

00:04:42   - Yeah, I mean, it was what I loved about it

00:04:44   using my laptop was you plugged in power and Thunderbolt

00:04:49   and that was it.

00:04:52   Everything else was,

00:04:53   so you could have ethernet plugged into the display,

00:04:56   you could have USB devices plugged into the display,

00:04:59   you could have Thunderbolt,

00:05:01   maybe not FireWire devices plugged into the display,

00:05:03   all of these external, so it was a docking station,

00:05:06   all of those external devices plugged in

00:05:08   and then you bring in your laptop and you go,

00:05:10   clip with MagSafe, then later clip with the MagSafe adapter,

00:05:13   and then, boop, plug in Thunderbolt, set your laptop down,

00:05:17   that's it, you're docked, you've got the ethernet lined up.

00:05:21   Whereas before I would plug in multiple things,

00:05:23   I'd plug in like four or five different things.

00:05:26   Audio, the same way, like I had some speakers,

00:05:28   but they were plugged into the Thunderbolt

00:05:30   instead of to the Mac.

00:05:31   - You could just get like what you have though,

00:05:33   like a Thunderbolt dock to do this for you though, right?

00:05:36   - You absolutely could.

00:05:37   And even my Dell display has, it's got a bunch of USB ports,

00:05:42   it's only USB, but it's got a bunch of USB to ports

00:05:44   and stuff, and that was fine, that worked fine.

00:05:47   I hope Apple makes an external display

00:05:51   because there is a market for it.

00:05:52   I mean, I think I said on Twitter

00:05:55   when people were asking about this a few weeks ago,

00:05:57   it seems unlikely to me, 'cause one of the questions is

00:06:00   why would Apple even need to make its own display?

00:06:03   If you go back in time, Apple used to make printers.

00:06:07   And you know what they did at some point?

00:06:08   They said, "Yeah, we're not gonna do that anymore."

00:06:10   And at the end, they were taking other people's printers

00:06:12   and relabeling them and calling them Apple printers,

00:06:14   but they got out of that business.

00:06:16   Apple doesn't have to be

00:06:17   in every third-party accessory business, right?

00:06:19   It doesn't have to be.

00:06:20   So why are they in this one?

00:06:22   And the answer is,

00:06:22   if you look at the price of that Thunderbolt display,

00:06:24   if you're thinking this is a high-end display

00:06:26   that's gonna sell to all of their Mac Pro

00:06:28   and many of their MacBook Pro customers,

00:06:32   the margins on it have to be spectacular.

00:06:35   - Yeah, and they've probably done the majority

00:06:37   of the work already in making the iMac.

00:06:40   - In making the iMac. - I assume that's where

00:06:41   the technology will come from to produce a 5K,

00:06:44   4K display, something like that.

00:06:46   - Some, whether it's a 4K or a 5K, but yeah,

00:06:48   a big external retina display using fancy new technology

00:06:53   and maybe an embedded GPU in order to get it all

00:06:57   to work right, but yeah, I mean, in the end,

00:07:00   I've gotta think that the reason Apple would do that

00:07:02   is not, is the margins, the fact that you can sell not just, instead of saying, well,

00:07:07   we're gonna sell other people's monitors, it's like, no, when you go to the Apple store

00:07:12   and you wanna buy a new Mac Pro, it's like, we've also got your fancy retina monitor to

00:07:17   buy with it, all right, let's bundle it in, not everybody will do that, but a lot of people

00:07:20   will do that, it's the, you know, from the same manufacturer, it's a package deal, the

00:07:28   stuff that they include at the Apple store is always gonna sell better than stuff that

00:07:31   have to go find on your own, and they build it in with high margins, which they absolutely

00:07:36   will, and it'll be a very profitable product for them. And I think that's why you keep

00:07:40   it around, is it's a good experience, I'm sure it will be a very high quality display,

00:07:45   and it will make them a lot of money. And it will increase the average revenue per sale

00:07:52   for every Mac that is compatible with it, because people will buy it. So I think it's

00:07:59   a no-brainer I think it will absolutely happen unlike printers where why would anybody frankly

00:08:05   be want to be in the printer business but this one I think is a business Apple wants

00:08:10   to stay in.

00:08:11   So if you want to you can still go to the Apple store you can still buy one for the

00:08:15   not discounted price of $999.

00:08:18   Amazing.

00:08:19   Once they're gone they're gone.

00:08:21   Those would be great sale once everybody throws them overboard if you're somebody who doesn't

00:08:27   care about retina, those will be available for cheap and they might actually be really

00:08:30   great at that, at a cheaper price.

00:08:33   Yeah, might be great for a third of the price or whatever.

00:08:35   I can't envision ever buying a non-retina anything ever again. So, yeah.

00:08:40   Yeah. It's just a funny old, I just love, I love the line. I just love the line. There

00:08:48   are a number of great third parties that are available for my kids. It's just so...

00:08:52   What are they gonna say, right?

00:08:53   I know, like, but they didn't really have to say anything, right? Just, we're stopping

00:08:58   making it, like, whilst supplies last. It's just funny, I don't know, there's just something

00:09:02   funny about it to me.

00:09:03   Just a reminder, we're not the only, this isn't the only monitor in the world.

00:09:06   But like, you can't buy any other monitor from them directly.

00:09:10   Right, yeah. Well, yeah, isn't that interesting?

00:09:14   Like, I feel like at least now, just stock something, right? Like, that's Sharp Display

00:09:19   or something like that, you know?

00:09:20   There are a lot of good displays out there. There really are.

00:09:24   I recommend the Dell ones. I've used them and I like them a lot. They're really nice.

00:09:28   Yeah, I like the Dell display a lot. Although I did have to cover up the Dell logo with

00:09:33   a piece of tape. Really? Did you do that?

00:09:36   Oh, Jason. I did it for a little while and then the tape

00:09:41   was worse than the Dell logo, so then I took it off.

00:09:44   At least put a sticker on the thing, you know? Come on.

00:09:46   That's true. That's true.

00:09:47   - You gotta get a sticker that's the right shape for that.

00:09:50   Anyway, yeah, dude, you get an Adele monitor

00:09:53   to go with your Mac, something like that.

00:09:56   That was follow up, huh?

00:09:57   - That was follow up. - How about that?

00:09:59   - This week's episode is brought to you

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00:10:14   And I remember, I remember Jason in the summer months,

00:10:18   standing on the tube in the morning, going to work,

00:10:21   and arriving at work and needing a shower.

00:10:24   Like just the worst, 'cause we used to wear suits to work,

00:10:26   there's no way around it, we had to wear suits.

00:10:28   And so I would go every morning.

00:10:30   If I was smart enough, I would leave my suit jacket

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00:11:13   record for the fastest half marathon run in a suit and he was wearing the Aviator 2. They

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00:11:22   Of course it is. Oh maybe it is. Okay.

00:11:24   It's a Guinness World Record. How many, do they do suit half marathons? Is that a...

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00:12:19   We should run a marathon or something like that.

00:12:22   You know, like we get one suit, two suits, we tie it like, get them stitched together

00:12:26   in some kind of pantomime horse way.

00:12:29   Me and you, you know?

00:12:30   The upgrade, first annual Upgate marathon.

00:12:31   Yeah, for the fastest half marathon run by two people in two suits sewn together.

00:12:36   Who record a podcast together.

00:12:38   Yeah.

00:12:39   World Record can, we can get one.

00:12:42   - Maybe, maybe.

00:12:43   - All right, you wrote a great piece over at Six Colors

00:12:46   in the week past about your time with Mac OS Sierra.

00:12:51   I believe you are in possession of a extra MacBook

00:12:55   which runs Sierra now?

00:12:57   - Yes, I went down to Apple after the show, in fact,

00:13:01   last week and got a briefing about Mac OS Sierra

00:13:04   and got a MacBook Pro.

00:13:06   - This is one of those things where it was like,

00:13:08   just in case they announce something, we'll be ready.

00:13:12   But we think we're okay.

00:13:13   - Yeah, and it was a Sierra briefing

00:13:16   and I got a MacBook Pro with Sierra pre-installed

00:13:18   on it by Apple, which is nice because I could use that

00:13:20   as a reference system instead of installing it

00:13:22   on my own iMac, which makes me feel better.

00:13:27   It's nice to have that kind of somewhere else.

00:13:29   - Makes me feel better too.

00:13:31   - And so yeah, so I, and they did a funny thing

00:13:35   where they briefed a bunch of people

00:13:36   and then they had an embargo time.

00:13:39   And it's this weird thing where if you,

00:13:44   there are still rules about the developer version

00:13:47   and you're not supposed to write reviews of the betas

00:13:51   and things like that.

00:13:52   And people just don't pay attention to it.

00:13:53   But with this, there was some group of us

00:13:56   who got the official briefing from Apple

00:13:58   and official blessing to write about,

00:14:01   essentially write reviews and take screenshots

00:14:03   and all of that publicly about the beta

00:14:06   with Apple's blessing and the post date

00:14:09   was like Wednesday morning, that was the embargo time.

00:14:12   So I spent the rest of Monday driving around the Bay Area

00:14:17   to various places and then Tuesday I spent writing my piece

00:14:21   about Sierra, which everybody saw on Wednesday morning.

00:14:24   3000 words of it or something like that.

00:14:26   I was, Rene Ritchie wrote more words than I did.

00:14:31   Although his story was, I do measure,

00:14:34   I do like how many words do they write?

00:14:36   Not because it's like who wins if they have the most words,

00:14:38   but more like, you know,

00:14:39   how many words did everybody have in them?

00:14:41   Did they think that this was worth?

00:14:43   And it runs a gamut for like, you know,

00:14:46   what Jim Dalrymple writes and what I write

00:14:48   and what Renee writes.

00:14:50   Renee had like 5,000 words that blew me away,

00:14:52   but he was,

00:14:53   I more does things a little bit differently.

00:14:55   He had like lots of stuff.

00:14:56   It was like building on a story from the previous week

00:14:58   and all that.

00:14:59   But I do pay attention to that 'cause I'm kind of curious

00:15:01   'cause I write it essentially in isolation.

00:15:03   And then it's like, what did everybody else do?

00:15:05   and it's like a little experiment.

00:15:09   It's like we gave the same information

00:15:10   to six different people and what did they all do?

00:15:13   - I read for yours this morning.

00:15:14   It's the only one that I read naturally.

00:15:17   - Well, it's all you need to read, Myke.

00:15:19   - It's all I need.

00:15:19   Exactly, so I said naturally, like what more would I need?

00:15:22   I've got Jason Snow's coverage.

00:15:24   And I have a bunch of questions and observations

00:15:27   based on what you've written.

00:15:28   And I would like to go through some of these with you.

00:15:31   And I'm broken it down into the way

00:15:32   that your little piece was written.

00:15:34   So I wanna start with storage optimizations.

00:15:37   And I wonder kind of how you feel in general about this.

00:15:42   'Cause you wrote some good stuff in there,

00:15:44   some of the things that are uncomfortable,

00:15:46   some of the things you like.

00:15:47   And I know that I've recently been caught out

00:15:49   with the photo storage optimization on my iOS devices.

00:15:54   So I was on a plane back from San Francisco

00:15:57   and I look at a picture and it was blurry.

00:16:00   And then also last week I met my grandma for lunch

00:16:05   and I was showing her photos of like relay card and stuff

00:16:08   and none of them were downloaded to my iPad

00:16:11   and I didn't have the cellular plan enabled

00:16:13   and there was no wifi.

00:16:15   So these are photos that have been taken

00:16:17   like within the last week, but for some reason

00:16:21   they were not the ones that were downloaded to my device.

00:16:25   I had the optimized storage thing turned on

00:16:27   which I didn't know that I did by the way.

00:16:29   I don't know how that got turned on, but it was on.

00:16:32   And I don't know how comfortable I am for this to happen

00:16:37   with the files on my computer.

00:16:40   Like the photos that I'm trying to show someone

00:16:42   can be blurry, but you can't get like a blurry audio file.

00:16:46   It's like either there or not there.

00:16:48   Like the thumbnails of a photo are somewhat useful.

00:16:51   Like I can show them to my nan and she can still see them.

00:16:54   They just don't look as good as they should,

00:16:55   but she doesn't really notice.

00:16:58   but I can't like take a one hour audio file

00:17:01   that I wanted to do some work on

00:17:02   that we recorded a month ago,

00:17:04   but it was something in the can.

00:17:06   And then I go to open it on a plane and it's not there.

00:17:09   - It's not there.

00:17:10   - That's a whole different thing for me.

00:17:13   - Yeah, it's, and there are ways around it

00:17:17   if you are thinking of it,

00:17:18   like if you're thinking of it, you can say,

00:17:21   I'm gonna make sure this is downloaded

00:17:23   or I'm gonna put this in a place that doesn't do that.

00:17:26   Because one of the things that's interesting

00:17:27   about the storage optimization is,

00:17:29   it's tied in with this idea that it's syncing iCloud

00:17:32   from your desktop, your documents folder,

00:17:35   and the iCloud drive folder.

00:17:37   If your document in Sierra is not in one of those places,

00:17:44   nothing of this applies.

00:17:46   It doesn't go to iCloud,

00:17:48   it doesn't get selectively removed.

00:17:50   It's only the stuff that's being synced to iCloud

00:17:52   that can be selectively removed

00:17:55   because it knows that it's an iCloud.

00:17:57   and you can't turn it on for your whole system.

00:17:59   So there's some, because somebody was telling me like,

00:18:01   oh, well just change your workflow

00:18:02   and don't put files on the desktop anymore.

00:18:04   I'm like, but that's my workflow is I don't want to change

00:18:07   my workflow. - Yeah, it's like,

00:18:08   you can do that, right?

00:18:08   Like that makes sense, right?

00:18:09   You can do that, but it doesn't work for me.

00:18:12   - Also you have to know, right?

00:18:14   You have to know.

00:18:15   And the thing I was thinking was I was in Yosemite

00:18:17   for the Yosemite Conference this year and last year,

00:18:22   a great conference.

00:18:24   If they do it again, I recommend that people go.

00:18:25   It was really great.

00:18:26   - Yeah, I've had that one on my list.

00:18:28   - It's beautiful.

00:18:31   But so I was there and I was doing a presentation

00:18:35   and I hadn't finished the presentation

00:18:37   by the time I got there.

00:18:38   There was an Apple event.

00:18:40   There was a lot of stuff going on.

00:18:41   It was a very busy week.

00:18:43   So I had to finish building the presentation

00:18:46   while I was there.

00:18:47   And presentations have images and stuff in them.

00:18:49   And I had that moment where I realized

00:18:51   like the internet connection in Yosemite is really bad.

00:18:55   It's very slow and there were computer nerds there.

00:18:58   So it was even slower 'cause we were using it all.

00:19:01   And I had that same moment of like all of these files

00:19:04   that I know I have, but they're not here.

00:19:07   And that was not because of iCloud drive,

00:19:09   but it was that feeling of like,

00:19:11   oh, I didn't think about the fact

00:19:13   that there's this particular file in Dropbox that I need,

00:19:18   that is in a folder that I didn't sync to this laptop.

00:19:21   And that is what I was thinking of

00:19:24   when I saw this feature is what if that image

00:19:27   or that document that you need

00:19:29   when you're in a low connectivity area

00:19:31   just got optimized without you knowing it?

00:19:33   And you didn't even think about that you would need it.

00:19:35   It was an image from eight months ago,

00:19:36   but you knew you stored it away

00:19:38   and that it was there if you needed it

00:19:40   at some point in the future.

00:19:41   And eight months later, you need it

00:19:43   and you're not connected to the internet.

00:19:45   And that's the problem with the scenario.

00:19:48   And I like so many things about this feature

00:19:52   in terms of making it be almost like you've got

00:19:55   not quite unlimited storage,

00:19:57   but that a lot of the storage issues you have

00:20:00   are taken care of by iCloud.

00:20:02   But I'm not sure it's realistic for Apple

00:20:06   to think that this makes sense in a world where,

00:20:10   one, between 2/3 and 3/4 of all the Macs are laptops.

00:20:15   And two, this is a place where not everybody

00:20:18   has fast internet everywhere they go.

00:20:21   I'm sure that a lot of the people who build tools at Apple

00:20:24   and work at Apple every day are always connected

00:20:26   with high speed internet.

00:20:28   But we've seen this in the past that sometimes I think Apple

00:20:31   builds features not understanding the conditions

00:20:34   that other people have in terms of their network.

00:20:38   And this feels like that.

00:20:39   This feels like a great feature for a desktop computer

00:20:43   on an always on, probably non-metered internet connection.

00:20:48   This seems like a great feature.

00:20:49   on a laptop that's taken on airplanes,

00:20:52   many of which don't have in-flight wifi anyway,

00:20:55   this doesn't seem like a great feature

00:20:57   because again, it might not bite me.

00:21:02   I'm not saying it would bite me commonly, frequently,

00:21:06   but the fact that it might bite me

00:21:10   would be enough for me to not turn it on.

00:21:12   Just 'cause I would have no confidence,

00:21:14   if I could have no confidence

00:21:15   that the files that I want are with me.

00:21:19   again, unless I very specifically in advance know exactly what files I want, which I think

00:21:23   is not a great scenario. So, you know, again, I think it's a cool feature, but I'm dubious

00:21:29   about how frequently people will want to use it, because I think there's a lot of pain

00:21:35   that will come out of it if people kind of unwittingly turn it on and don't quite realize

00:21:39   what they're signing up for, and then they go on vacation with their laptop and find

00:21:44   that the file that they're counting on to do some, you know, to write their novel while

00:21:47   they're in a cabin in the woods and the novel file is gone.

00:21:50   Because the funny thing is, I feel like the easy argument for this is, "Oh, you know,

00:21:57   people don't use their computers the way that me and you use our computers," right? Like,

00:22:03   accessing a massive audio file three months later, right? But the thing is, me and you

00:22:08   have both got caught out by photo optimization. So it's kind of, like, the same thing as like,

00:22:14   we're not gonna use this feature because we don't want

00:22:19   to do this, we wanna run our computer slightly differently.

00:22:21   But we also probably both didn't know

00:22:24   that we're on storage optimization.

00:22:26   - Yeah, I mean, leaving our particular,

00:22:31   sure, our particular ways of using files

00:22:34   are probably outside the norm,

00:22:35   but like I have spreadsheets that I look at

00:22:38   once every three months.

00:22:39   - Yeah, of course, of course.

00:22:41   - If I am somewhere where I need to call

00:22:44   that spreadsheet up and it's just not there

00:22:46   and I don't have an internet connection.

00:22:48   That's bad, right?

00:22:49   That's bad.

00:22:50   So, it's just one of those things that it's,

00:22:53   I think it's a clever feature.

00:22:57   I do wonder a little bit,

00:23:00   Apple is putting a lot of stock in the fact

00:23:02   that they are intelligently managing storage,

00:23:04   that it's files that you're not using frequently

00:23:07   that are old, that it's offloading.

00:23:09   And I get that and yet, I don't know,

00:23:13   I'm not convinced that this is gonna be something

00:23:15   that makes people happy

00:23:16   and that it isn't gonna just cause more problems

00:23:19   where people no longer have this confidence

00:23:21   that if they're not on the internet,

00:23:23   they don't have access to all of their stuff

00:23:25   when they need it.

00:23:26   And there's no interface, right?

00:23:28   There's no, you can, the only interface here

00:23:30   is that you can download something from iCloud Drive

00:23:33   that's not downloaded.

00:23:35   You can force a download by clicking.

00:23:37   You can get it to download it.

00:23:39   but there's no like never delete this file interface

00:23:44   so far as I can tell.

00:23:46   They either or never delete anything in this folder.

00:23:49   I don't, that's not how it seems to work

00:23:52   at least in beta one.

00:23:53   - Yeah, so we'll see.

00:23:55   I mean, there is a real benefit to this that I understand

00:23:58   but I would like to be able to have more choice.

00:24:00   I have heard that Dropbox infinite will be like that.

00:24:03   So you'll be able to choose what you want in and out

00:24:06   which I really liked the idea of that.

00:24:08   that's the feature that I want.

00:24:10   But that's the power user feature

00:24:11   and Apple are building the feature for everyone.

00:24:13   - Yeah, absolutely.

00:24:14   And they should, they should.

00:24:17   This is the challenges is you're building a feature

00:24:19   that just works, that has no interface beyond saying,

00:24:22   yes, I wanna use this and that's all great.

00:24:24   I just, when I walk through that, the scenarios,

00:24:26   I see a lot of scenarios where people end up really angry

00:24:29   at Apple for losing, not permanently,

00:24:32   but like for making their files unavailable

00:24:35   when they need them and there's someplace

00:24:37   where they don't have an internet connection.

00:24:39   And that's not, you don't wanna be caught out like that.

00:24:42   And that makes people not trust their computer anymore

00:24:46   and not trust Apple.

00:24:47   So we'll see, maybe it will be spectacular

00:24:53   and it will never be a problem for anyone,

00:24:55   but I'm a little concerned that this is more of a problem

00:24:59   than that.

00:25:00   - As well as this, the storage optimizations

00:25:03   do come with some features that I can't wait to have,

00:25:05   like storage management controls.

00:25:07   So you can choose things as a red light.

00:25:10   You can have iTunes automatically delete movies.

00:25:13   You can have your trash automatically emptied.

00:25:15   Like stuff like that is really great.

00:25:16   - Movies and TV shows you've already watched.

00:25:19   And I've had that where I'm like,

00:25:20   why do I have 10 gigabytes in the iTunes?

00:25:22   Oh, it's that movie that I downloaded and watched.

00:25:24   And then it sat there for another six months.

00:25:26   Downloads, if you download the same disc image,

00:25:29   'cause you're like, oh, I need to reinstall that.

00:25:30   And it turns out you already did that download

00:25:32   and it's the same file,

00:25:34   or it's the older version of the same file,

00:25:35   it actually will.

00:25:37   There are cases where this could stomp things out,

00:25:39   but it'll download the new one

00:25:41   and it basically replaces the old download

00:25:44   of the same name that's the same file.

00:25:46   - Man, I need to protect that Skype disk image

00:25:48   that I have, I have like Skype 6,

00:25:51   that thing, man, that has saved me.

00:25:53   - You should put it somewhere special.

00:25:55   Yeah, they're doing a bunch of stuff like that

00:25:57   that is, they're reducing,

00:25:59   Sierra reduces the number of logs that get generated

00:26:02   or it cleans up the logs in a better way,

00:26:04   which is again, I think an example where Apple,

00:26:07   when people at Apple had huge hard drives,

00:26:10   they didn't really worry about it,

00:26:11   but now that everybody's got SSDs,

00:26:12   they're like, oh yeah, those logs are really inefficient.

00:26:14   We should do something about that.

00:26:16   There's a lot of that going on

00:26:17   where they're trying to like set your mail settings,

00:26:21   the Apple mail settings to leave some

00:26:24   or all of the attachments on the IMAP server for you,

00:26:27   because those attachments take up a lot of disc space.

00:26:30   And if, you know, it's a different way of doing it

00:26:34   than iCloud, it's using IMAP, but it's the same principle,

00:26:36   which is, do you need this on your drive

00:26:39   if it's accessible on a server for you to get later?

00:26:43   And you have two options with mail.

00:26:45   You can actually say, leave them all up there

00:26:47   or just leave the old ones up there and delete them locally.

00:26:51   But you know, all of the things that they're doing

00:26:53   on a bunch of different fronts, on stage,

00:26:54   they made it seem like, oh, well, this is one feature.

00:26:57   It is one feature, but it's a lot of different techniques

00:27:00   to try and either delete stuff that you don't need,

00:27:03   or that's duplicating something else

00:27:05   that's already on the drive,

00:27:07   or finding things that are in the cloud

00:27:09   and saying it's in the cloud, that's fine,

00:27:11   we don't need it on this Mac anymore.

00:27:13   - One thing that I'm also really excited about

00:27:15   is the reduce clutter feature,

00:27:16   where the system can help you remove files

00:27:20   that you don't need.

00:27:21   It's a bit of a shell locking,

00:27:22   you know, there are a bunch of apps that do this,

00:27:24   like ClearMyMac and DaisyDisk and stuff like that,

00:27:26   but I am pleased that this is being built into the system,

00:27:29   - And as usual with some of these things

00:27:31   that might help those other applications

00:27:33   'cause you feel you want more control

00:27:34   and then you go to a third party.

00:27:35   - Exactly.

00:27:36   - But I'm pleased that they're building this in.

00:27:38   - It will do things like iOS backup disk images

00:27:43   which actually can be enormous.

00:27:44   And a lot of times you don't even back up

00:27:46   your iOS device anymore.

00:27:48   You did it once or you moved it to iCloud.

00:27:50   It'll delete those.

00:27:52   If you, it'll let you choose to,

00:27:54   it sort of shows you,

00:27:56   look how much space these are taking up

00:27:57   and you can delete them right from there.

00:27:59   Disk images get floated to the top of like software

00:28:03   you installed a long time ago

00:28:04   and now they're just sort of sitting there.

00:28:06   And then there are other large files that they'll point out

00:28:08   are there too.

00:28:09   GarageBand, I think they actually link to GarageBand directly

00:28:12   so that you can remove like instruments and loops

00:28:15   and stuff like that 'cause those are huge too.

00:28:17   And they've really just tried to kind of catalog

00:28:19   the biggest culprits in terms of eating disk space

00:28:23   with stuff that you probably don't need.

00:28:25   - Right, okay.

00:28:26   So yeah, I'm excited about that.

00:28:27   That is gonna be a good feature.

00:28:30   - Everybody's gonna have SSDs eventually,

00:28:32   you know, even the fusion drives will eventually go away

00:28:35   and the SSDs, although they are getting bigger and cheaper,

00:28:37   because that's the way of the world,

00:28:39   you know, it's a step back that makes it painful for people.

00:28:42   So this will make it, you know, this will make it easier.

00:28:44   I think in the long run, it's not,

00:28:46   storage isn't gonna matter.

00:28:47   In the long run, you'll be able to mirror,

00:28:49   you know, SSDs will be so cheap that it won't matter,

00:28:51   but it's gonna be a while.

00:28:52   And so this is a feature for the interim.

00:28:55   - All right, let's move on to Siri.

00:28:56   - No ahoy telephone or ahoy computer call can be made.

00:29:01   You would, you can't--

00:29:03   - Hello computer.

00:29:04   - Hello computer.

00:29:06   No ahoy Macintosh, there's none of that in there,

00:29:09   which is interesting.

00:29:10   I don't know why they didn't put that in there.

00:29:13   That seems weird to me.

00:29:14   - I asked them about it and their answer was strange.

00:29:19   The answer was like, we don't think that the Mac

00:29:23   is in contexts where you're across the room

00:29:27   and need to shout at it.

00:29:28   That we think the Mac generally you're engaged in it

00:29:31   actively and so keystroke is a better,

00:29:35   or a click on an icon is a better interaction,

00:29:41   which I can see the argument,

00:29:44   but I suspect that there's some other story

00:29:47   behind this too, right?

00:29:48   That they for whatever reason didn't want

00:29:51   the Mac monitoring your audio all the time,

00:29:56   looking for it, they were,

00:29:57   I wonder if there's a technical reason why,

00:29:59   and this is, 'cause it strikes me

00:30:01   that I get the philosophical reason,

00:30:03   but I'm not entirely sure the philosophical reason

00:30:05   is the real reason why, but I get it.

00:30:08   They're saying, look, the Siri experience

00:30:10   on the Mac is active, you're using your Mac,

00:30:12   and then you're telling it to do things

00:30:14   or asking it questions,

00:30:15   and that's why it works the way it does.

00:30:18   Also, I think, actually, this might be part of it too.

00:30:22   There's this advanced dictation feature

00:30:25   which actually lets you kick off scripts and stuff,

00:30:27   which has been there for years,

00:30:28   which is pretty awesome actually.

00:30:29   And there are a whole bunch of new interactions

00:30:32   that Apple is releasing that let you do

00:30:35   some kind of amazing voice control of apps.

00:30:36   But it uses a different path than Siri

00:30:39   with a different set of triggers.

00:30:41   And I think that one has,

00:30:43   and it's related to accessibility.

00:30:47   And I think that one has voice triggers.

00:30:49   So I wonder if there's actually a collision happening here

00:30:52   where they kind of can't do one

00:30:53   without integrating the other and they don't want to,

00:30:56   or they didn't have time to or something like that.

00:30:59   I don't know.

00:30:59   So it may be something like that where,

00:31:01   because a lot of people don't know this,

00:31:03   but in addition to regular dictation,

00:31:04   there's this advanced dictation that is a whole other path.

00:31:07   It downloads a bunch of data

00:31:08   and it also lets you control your Mac via voice

00:31:11   and do a bunch of stuff and run scripts and things like that.

00:31:15   And that's been there for more than a decade.

00:31:17   That's been there for ages and it's still there.

00:31:20   So there may be interaction problems there too.

00:31:23   But anyway, their story is that they feel like

00:31:25   this is a feature that is used by people

00:31:27   who are actively using their Mac.

00:31:28   And so there's no Ahoy computer.

00:31:30   - Do you ever think you're gonna use

00:31:33   these Siri features like seriously?

00:31:35   - Yeah, I suspect I will use it some,

00:31:46   just like I use it on my iPhone.

00:31:48   I don't use Siri heavily anywhere right now,

00:31:52   but there are those moments where I think, again,

00:31:55   I will have that moment of like,

00:31:58   are the giants playing today?

00:32:00   I do that a lot.

00:32:01   Are they playing today?

00:32:02   What's the score now?

00:32:03   I do that, or what's the weather forecast?

00:32:06   And some of that stuff's in Notification Center

00:32:08   and I can get it there, but for like giant stuff,

00:32:10   I end up launching a web browser and going to a page

00:32:14   and seeing what the schedule is.

00:32:15   And for stuff like that, I'm like, oh yeah,

00:32:18   I can just use Siri for that now, that'll be easier.

00:32:20   I can see some of that.

00:32:22   I'm not sure I'm gonna use it to do searches,

00:32:24   especially since those same searches can be done

00:32:28   on the computer by typing,

00:32:29   and probably with more features

00:32:33   than can be done with Siri on the Mac.

00:32:36   So I don't know.

00:32:37   I think it will be somewhat useful,

00:32:41   but I'm withholding judgment

00:32:45   about whether I want to use it for a little while and see if it's something that sticks

00:32:48   with me. My gut feeling is that I won't use it a lot.

00:32:51   Let's talk about photos. You are the king of photos, after all. You wrote the book on

00:32:59   photos. What has your experience been so far with image recognition from faces and horses

00:33:07   and mountains, that kind of thing? Do you feel like it's doing a good job, a different

00:33:12   job or whatever, like how do you feel about this?

00:33:16   - It's early, it's a beta.

00:33:20   I think the image recognition stuff is really cool.

00:33:25   It seems to work.

00:33:29   One of the challenges is setting this up on a new Mac.

00:33:32   My photo library is huge and it's an iCloud.

00:33:36   And so I've set it to optimize storage

00:33:39   'cause quite frankly, my photo library won't fit

00:33:41   on this Mac's hard drive.

00:33:42   So it's got to optimize storage.

00:33:44   And there's this question of like, okay,

00:33:45   is it going to still analyze these photos

00:33:48   even with optimized storage turned on?

00:33:50   And it seems to have analyzed

00:33:52   the last couple of years worth,

00:33:54   but not a lot more than that,

00:33:55   which I'm not quite sure why that's happening.

00:33:57   And is it going to, if I leave it open on my desk

00:34:00   for a couple of days, will it optimize,

00:34:03   will it load the thumbnails and start analyzing

00:34:05   all the pictures in my library or not?

00:34:09   It does find mountains and cats and dogs and lakes

00:34:13   and things like that and rainbows, but not unicorns

00:34:17   'cause the unicorns aren't real.

00:34:19   And it's-- - What happens to Google?

00:34:21   Let me see.

00:34:21   - Google show you pictures of products

00:34:25   that haven't been released yet.

00:34:27   So it does work, but I'm withholding judgment again

00:34:32   because I don't know if it's really indexing everything.

00:34:34   I mean, and it's a beta.

00:34:36   it's encouraging the facial recognition stuff. Again, it's a beta. I think it's not all there

00:34:41   yet. I hope it's not all there yet because it does a much worse job of recognizing faces

00:34:46   at this point than the old faces engine in that it recognized like 40 photos of faces

00:34:53   and then everything else is sort of like one face, one face, one face, one face. Like it

00:34:58   isn't rolling things together and I'm not quite sure what's going on there. I'm gonna

00:35:01   again, it's a beta, it's early, I'm gonna give it the benefit of the doubt for now,

00:35:07   but what I can't say is, oh yeah, it's already better, because I don't think that's the case.

00:35:12   I think there's more work to be done. I suspect it has to do with the analysis and how often

00:35:17   it's doing the analysis and how it's pulling data down from iCloud and all of that. So

00:35:22   we'll see. I think it's too early yet. I'm encouraged, but it's too early.

00:35:28   Google didn't turn any results for unicorns.

00:35:32   - Oh, see?

00:35:34   - Maybe it will for some people,

00:35:35   but maybe I just don't have any pictures of unicorns.

00:35:37   Maybe that's the problem.

00:35:38   If you play around with the memories features at all,

00:35:42   like did you see anything here that kind of made you smile?

00:35:45   'Cause Google does this, right?

00:35:46   So they have their assistant stuff,

00:35:48   they create albums, they create gifts,

00:35:50   and they usually surface something that I find kind of fun.

00:35:52   It makes me, you know, just puts a smile on my face.

00:35:55   Have you seen any of the movies or slideshows?

00:35:57   have any of it kind of elicited

00:35:58   that kind of response from you?

00:36:00   - Sure, there are no movies on the Mac,

00:36:02   that's only on iOS, but there are memories

00:36:05   and I like the idea because it's like Time Hopper,

00:36:09   one of those services, right?

00:36:10   Where it's like, this is something

00:36:11   that you did a year ago.

00:36:12   - It's such a simple and easy thing to do, right?

00:36:15   Like just you have all of the data,

00:36:17   just show me stuff that's dated one year ago.

00:36:19   - Well, in fact, I would say,

00:36:21   last week when I set this up,

00:36:23   one of the memories that it gave me was,

00:36:25   and this is in my review,

00:36:26   was you took the kids to the beach four years ago this week.

00:36:31   And there were a bunch of pictures and a video

00:36:33   and of this trip we took to the beach.

00:36:36   And that was a lot of fun.

00:36:39   And it's like, and here's what you did three years ago.

00:36:42   And here's some photos from last month.

00:36:44   And it kind of collected a bunch of things together

00:36:46   in these different memories.

00:36:47   And I thought that was good because we talked about this

00:36:49   on clockwise a little bit last week that,

00:36:51   we have so many images and videos in our libraries now.

00:36:55   And it very rarely do you go,

00:36:56   I'm just going to paw through my library

00:36:59   and see what happened in the past.

00:37:01   We really need the software to surface stuff

00:37:04   and say, you might wanna look at this

00:37:06   because otherwise the stuff's

00:37:07   never gonna get looked at again.

00:37:08   We take all these images, we generate all this data

00:37:11   and then we don't do anything with it.

00:37:12   So it worked with me.

00:37:14   I really enjoyed those beach photos enough

00:37:16   that it was looking like a very warm weather week

00:37:18   here last week.

00:37:19   And so that was one of the,

00:37:21   that memory was actually a spur for me to suggest

00:37:24   to my family that we go back to that beach again,

00:37:27   which we did on Saturday.

00:37:28   So that was actually kind of a fun example

00:37:31   of memories in action.

00:37:32   They're like, "Oh yeah, we had a good time at that beach.

00:37:34   We should go back there."

00:37:35   And so we did.

00:37:36   So yeah, I think that, I think memories is clever.

00:37:39   It doesn't do all the things that Google Photos does

00:37:41   like creating animations and things like that

00:37:43   out of different stacks of photos.

00:37:46   Although those are widely varying quality,

00:37:49   but Apple's got live photos going for it.

00:37:51   So it can do some other things there.

00:37:53   We'll see. I would like it. I would really like to see it kind of do some of that kind

00:38:00   of stuff. You know, the videos that they showed on stage with the funny music and all that

00:38:03   kind of stuff, like I like that. I don't know how much I'll use it, but if it's created

00:38:07   for me, I'll at least watch some of them, you know? I can't make those things, but if

00:38:12   they're made automatically, I quite like to watch them.

00:38:15   Sure, sure. And that will be interesting to watch on iOS, but not a Mac feature, alas.

00:38:21   Now that you've spent some time with Sierra, do you think that some of the continuity features

00:38:25   like the unlocking with the watch, which is kind of a false touch ID, right?

00:38:31   Like it's the idea of unlocking it quickly without entering the password and the watch

00:38:36   is what's providing the touch ID there, if you'd call it that.

00:38:42   And the inclusion of Apple Pay via touch ID on another device.

00:38:45   Do you think that these things are signalling touch ID on the Mac?

00:38:50   I look at it and say it's a full on conclusion that they're putting it on there.

00:38:54   I think it's possible.

00:38:56   I mean, the watch is funny because the watch is not really Touch ID at all, right?

00:39:00   The watch is, you're entering a passcode, but because the watch is strapped to your

00:39:05   wrist and it can monitor whether you've ever taken it off your wrist, the idea there is

00:39:09   once you show one time that you know the passcode and the watch stays on your wrist, you've

00:39:15   provided continuity.

00:39:16   are the person who entered that passcode three hours ago, five hours ago, and that's a cool

00:39:21   feature but it still comes down to your Apple Watch passcode that's verifying your identity

00:39:27   there. And then with the--and that's how you unlock is with the watch, it's not even with

00:39:35   the phone there. Apple Pay, yeah, you're using Apple Pay basically, you're doing a thumbprint

00:39:40   on an iPhone or you're doing a double tap on the watch.

00:39:45   So that's a little bit different.

00:39:47   I don't know, I think they could totally put Touch ID in

00:39:50   and you would see its value here.

00:39:52   I'm not sure I say 100% sure that this actually means

00:39:55   they're going to put Touch ID on Macs,

00:39:58   but they certainly could and they would have some features.

00:40:01   'Cause that was always one of our questions, right?

00:40:02   It's like, well, what are they really gonna do with it?

00:40:04   And now it's like, well, very clearly that logging in

00:40:07   and Apple Pay are two things that they could do

00:40:10   right out of the box if they built it in.

00:40:13   So I don't know, I go both ways on this, I have to say,

00:40:18   because it could just be a great feature

00:40:20   that encourages you to,

00:40:22   it's the benefits of having an Apple Watch.

00:40:24   It's the benefits of having an iPhone.

00:40:26   Or you could go the other way, which is, here it is.

00:40:31   Your Mac can do it itself now

00:40:33   with this fancy new reader that we put on it.

00:40:36   - Yeah, I think it calls it.

00:40:39   One thing that I liked, I picked this out from your review,

00:40:42   you said that, which I had no idea about this,

00:40:45   that web developers will be able to, if they want to,

00:40:48   code their sites in such a way that the Apple Pay button

00:40:50   only displays when an eligible touch ID device

00:40:53   is in proximity of a Mac, that's awesome.

00:40:56   - That's what they said.

00:40:57   Well, I mean, it's continuity, right?

00:40:58   Like just how continuity will pop up a little thing

00:41:00   in the dock or something when you're nearby.

00:41:02   This is one of those ideas that you can code it,

00:41:05   whether anybody will do this, I don't know,

00:41:07   but the idea that you can code it.

00:41:08   So it's doing a call that basically Safari is saying,

00:41:13   are there any devices?

00:41:15   And then it displays it if there are,

00:41:17   and it doesn't if there aren't.

00:41:19   Which would be one way for people who,

00:41:21   for, you know, if you're a,

00:41:22   my guess is that everybody's gonna wanna have

00:41:25   an Apple Pay button there

00:41:26   because they're gonna wanna impress people

00:41:28   that they take Apple Pay.

00:41:30   But you could argue the other way,

00:41:32   which is this eliminates kind of clutter

00:41:34   And it's like, don't show Apple Pay

00:41:36   unless people are actually capable of paying with it.

00:41:39   - Yeah.

00:41:40   I want, there's also just a couple of little extra parts

00:41:44   that I wanted to go through.

00:41:45   Kind of did like a little features at the end.

00:41:48   And I want to see if you can clarify something.

00:41:50   So Apple are introducing a tabs like view to the OS.

00:41:55   And I wasn't completely clear on this from the presentation.

00:42:01   Is it just, you get to have tabbed windows

00:42:04   within a specific application,

00:42:06   or you can assign windows to tabs.

00:42:09   And what I mean by this is like,

00:42:11   will numbers give me tabs?

00:42:13   Or will I be able to combine pages and numbers

00:42:15   into one tab window?

00:42:16   - No, it's per app.

00:42:18   And it's basically a cheap way, an easy way

00:42:22   for any app that uses the standard window frameworks

00:42:27   to support multi-tab like in Safari or something like that.

00:42:33   And I mean, literally it's a setting.

00:42:35   So some apps would have to be modified

00:42:38   in order to support this and some apps

00:42:39   won't work with it at all,

00:42:40   but have built their own multi,

00:42:42   like Photoshop won't work with this,

00:42:44   but it doesn't matter.

00:42:44   They've got their own multi tab approach.

00:42:48   But a lot of sort of standard apps,

00:42:50   you turn this feature on and they just, they get it.

00:42:52   And they work like Safari.

00:42:54   They will add new documents to tabs

00:42:56   and you can drag them out and the whole,

00:42:58   drag them around and the whole thing.

00:43:00   And it's just, it's built into the framework now that,

00:43:02   and then you can choose.

00:43:03   You can choose full screen only or everywhere or nowhere, basically.

00:43:09   Picture in picture is also coming to the Mac for video and on the iPad, you're only allowed

00:43:16   to view these videos in the corners.

00:43:18   I was happy to discover that you can, if you call, I tried all the keyboard shortcuts to

00:43:26   see about this and yeah, if you hold down the command key while you drag the picture

00:43:31   and picture video window around, you can put it anywhere.

00:43:34   - Very nice.

00:43:34   - Any old where you want, which I thought was great

00:43:38   because I don't always want my video right up in the corner.

00:43:40   I've got a giant 5K iMac here, it's huge.

00:43:44   I don't actually want things way up in the corner like that.

00:43:48   And no, you can put it anywhere

00:43:49   with the command key held down.

00:43:51   - And have you had any time to play around

00:43:53   with notes collaboration?

00:43:54   - Not really, I mean, for like five minutes.

00:44:00   And it seems to work.

00:44:04   That's sort of my review is it does seem to work.

00:44:06   You can invite people via iCloud

00:44:07   and they can see your note

00:44:09   and they can put things in the notes

00:44:11   and you see them kind of appear.

00:44:13   And yeah, it seems to work.

00:44:16   And across iOS and Mac.

00:44:18   - So it's not immediate,

00:44:20   but it's in a kind of way like how it works currently.

00:44:22   Like if I add something to a note on my iPhone

00:44:25   and then open that note on my Mac

00:44:27   and start typing things in,

00:44:28   eventually like it just spits a bunch of text into there,

00:44:31   which I actually quite like the way that it does

00:44:32   that syncing, it just doesn't believe in conflicts,

00:44:34   it just throws everything in.

00:44:36   So I assume it's kind of the same.

00:44:38   So things can move around and be pushed in,

00:44:40   but it's not like you can't see me live typing in there,

00:44:43   like in Google box or something.

00:44:45   - I don't think it's quite that of a refresh,

00:44:48   but I think it's trying to be as fast as it can,

00:44:51   but it's not a, you know, I can see every word,

00:44:54   every letter as you're typing it,

00:44:55   like it is in something like Google box.

00:44:58   - And there's one thing that I've seen people talking about

00:45:00   now that you can change the default font size in notes,

00:45:02   which is amazing news.

00:45:04   - Notes has really grown up.

00:45:07   Notes has a lot of things going for it now

00:45:09   that it doesn't have before.

00:45:10   I believe one of the great things about notes now is

00:45:16   it has a preferences window for the first time.

00:45:18   - Yay.

00:45:20   What is in there?

00:45:20   What is, what's in there?

00:45:22   - That, well, a bunch of stuff that used to be,

00:45:23   just be in a menu item is in the notes preferences window,

00:45:26   but still it's like when an app grows up

00:45:29   and becomes an adult, it gets a preferences window.

00:45:33   And so in the preferences window of notes,

00:45:35   there is a sort notes by, new notes start with,

00:45:40   default account, whether you want an on my Mac account

00:45:43   or not, and a default text size.

00:45:46   And then also you can set the password for,

00:45:48   and reset the password for locked notes.

00:45:50   That's, and I think those were largely settings

00:45:54   that already existed.

00:45:56   - Except the default font size.

00:45:58   - Except the default fonts that they existed,

00:46:00   but they were like in the notes application menu,

00:46:03   just as items.

00:46:06   And somebody seems to have said,

00:46:07   "All right, we got too much junk in there.

00:46:10   Let's just make a preferences window."

00:46:11   So congratulations to notes for finally Mazel tov notes.

00:46:16   You are now, it's like a bar mitzvah or something.

00:46:20   You are now a man, yes.

00:46:22   - Congratulations notes.

00:46:23   or woman, I actually don't know the gender of notes,

00:46:26   but you are now an adult, a legal adult.

00:46:29   You have a preferences box.

00:46:31   - So overall, how do you feel about Sierra?

00:46:34   Oh, something I didn't ask you.

00:46:35   How many times did you call it Meccos 10 Sierra

00:46:38   when you were writing this?

00:46:40   - None, I was super good about it.

00:46:42   And then when I posted the review, I tweeted about it

00:46:44   and immediately called it Meccos 10 Sierra in the tweet.

00:46:47   - Nice work, nice work.

00:46:48   - Yep, the pressure was off then.

00:46:50   And that was when it got me.

00:46:52   Yeah.

00:46:53   How do you feel about it overall?

00:46:55   - You know, it's a nice update.

00:46:58   I need to see the photos changes

00:47:00   could actually be really spectacularly good,

00:47:02   but I got to see them in action

00:47:04   and I'm not all the way there yet.

00:47:06   Remains to be seen.

00:47:08   A lot of nice things, not a lot of huge overhauls,

00:47:12   which I think is good.

00:47:13   Integrating iCloud Drive more is,

00:47:17   I think a good thing for Apple to do.

00:47:20   But like I said, I'm a little unsure

00:47:22   about the optimized storage feature for your documents,

00:47:27   but it may turn out to be good.

00:47:31   But I think so many people do keep all their stuff

00:47:33   in documents and desktop.

00:47:36   And this does, if you've got multiple Macs,

00:47:39   this is a really good way.

00:47:42   I mean, you can use Dropbox

00:47:43   and have all your files stored in Dropbox,

00:47:45   but if you put things that aren't in Dropbox,

00:47:47   they don't sync at all.

00:47:48   This is like for people who don't wanna go down that path,

00:47:52   you know, if you turn this on and you've got a couple

00:47:54   different Macs, they're just gonna be in sync.

00:47:57   The stuff on the desktop is the stuff

00:47:58   on the desktop everywhere.

00:47:59   That's pretty cool.

00:48:00   That's a nice base system level feature for Apple to do.

00:48:03   Yes, it does mean that they're gonna be able

00:48:05   to charge more people for iCloud Drive.

00:48:07   I do wonder if they might change the iCloud Drive prices

00:48:10   again in the fall, since they're trying to get people

00:48:12   to use this and the iCloud Drive prices are okay.

00:48:16   They're better than they used to be,

00:48:17   but I do wonder if they might try to be a little more

00:48:20   aggressive with pricing just to get people on board. Because if you check that box and

00:48:25   it says, you know, you don't have enough to use this feature, this nice new feature because

00:48:30   you have to pay us, I'm not sure that's, you know, how many, what percentage of users does

00:48:35   Apple want to throw that dialogue box up to and prompt them to immediately pay? And, you

00:48:42   know, is that an upsell for them or is that a bad user experience? And they want you to

00:48:46   get on this feature and then pay for more space down the road when it you

00:48:51   know your data expands and grows I don't know but but yeah I think so so yeah I'm

00:48:57   optimistic about this about this release I'm looking forward to using some of the

00:49:00   features that I haven't gotten the chance to use yet like the watch unlock

00:49:03   thing and see how that see how that feels - I guess it's because you're not

00:49:08   running OS 3 on the watch yet right right well my understanding is the beta

00:49:12   one doesn't even have the watch unlock feature in it but I am not running

00:49:17   watchOS 3 on my on my watch anyway so I can't really test it regardless.

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00:51:40   for their support of Upgrade and Wheel AFM. Jason Snow it is time. It is time for me and you to

00:51:48   discuss a topic that we have had banding around for months now but I have been resisting because

00:51:54   I know how it makes you feel and I wanted to hold it back until the time was right. I feel like the

00:52:00   time is now right we are going to discuss the potential for apple to remove the 3.5

00:52:07   mm headphone jack from the next iphone. The reason we're going to talk about this now

00:52:12   is prompted by more supply chain rumors and case manufacturers etc etc.

00:52:18   Neil I. Patel of the Verge wrote a pretty good article I think it was a nice little

00:52:22   listicle which I thought was quite funny it was a good way to do it.

00:52:26   in the reasons that he believes the removal of the headphone jack is a bad idea. Now I'm

00:52:32   going to take the Casey List role here, summariser in chief, and go through some of the parts

00:52:38   here and then subsequent articles and then I will release you to talk about how you feel.

00:52:46   So Nielai Patel, he cited a lot of great reasons as to why removing the headphone jack is a

00:52:53   bad idea and some of my favorites were DRM audio so you know don't now basically

00:52:59   all of the music that you listen to there'll be some kind of DRM check for

00:53:02   it because that's what happens with digital it's like this you know if

00:53:05   you've ever seen what is it HDCP error or something when you're trying to play

00:53:09   a back video it's because there's some kind of digital video DRM check that

00:53:13   came with the HDMI standard this is a similar type of thing that could happen

00:53:17   with something like lightning as the way to pass digital audio rather than using

00:53:23   the analog kind of loophole that's in the 3.5 millimeter jack. We're gonna have

00:53:28   to see more dongles and adapters because if you want I can pretty much guarantee

00:53:32   that if they move it over to the lightning port there will be a lightning to 3.5

00:53:36   millimeter dongle which will suck because who wants to use stuff like that

00:53:40   and one that I actually think is pretty important but has been I think

00:53:44   misunderstood by some people who don't understand why this is a thing making

00:53:49   Android and iPhone headphones incompatible and I think I don't think

00:53:53   Neelay wrote this point very well because he didn't actually explain this one and

00:53:58   if I can infer from him what he's saying is that if you want to buy a pair of

00:54:02   headphones you have to check what adapter it has now yeah which you've

00:54:07   never had to do before but now you like you also oh I want to buy those headphones

00:54:11   You take them home and you realize that they're lightning but you have an Android phone or vice versa, right?

00:54:17   Like you buy them and it's like all these have got that little connector that I know but oh no wait

00:54:21   It's USB C, you know and so the wheel goes around and around this is something we've never had to worry about before

00:54:27   Every device has Bluetooth every device has 3.5 millimeter jack. You can use the headphones you just bought that won't be the case anymore

00:54:34   After Neil, I posted this drunk group over kind of rebuts all of it. He has his own opinions

00:54:41   he breaks down the Eli's piece and there are a lot of things that he goes into but

00:54:45   I want to pick out a couple of things here from John's piece. He believes it's

00:54:49   not about the thinness. This is something that people have said for a long time

00:54:53   the idea of Apple will remove this because it's the biggest port on the

00:54:56   iPhone bla bla bla. However as John very rightly points out the iPod touch and

00:55:02   the iPod nano both are thinner than the current iPhone and still include the

00:55:08   headphone jack. So thinness doesn't really seem to make sense as an argument here.

00:55:12   But then John kind of starts to go against some of what Neelay is saying

00:55:16   saying and he compares ditching of the headphone jack to like when Apple ditched

00:55:21   the floppy drive on the iMac which we spoke about with Steven a couple of

00:55:25   weeks ago. And saying that Apple has a history of this, they move first

00:55:30   you know they're always adding like they add USB, they remove the floppy drive, they do

00:55:34   do these types of things they cut stuff out and move on like you know the we had

00:55:38   these same arguments when they cut all the ports from the MacBook and they just

00:55:42   put USB C on it it's like this is the way it goes this is how Apple work and

00:55:46   John brings in an argument of all we'd still have VGA on our devices he also

00:55:51   says the Apple don't care about port compatibility they've never have they

00:55:55   just care about compatibility with their own devices this is just what they do

00:56:00   that was a kind of I think effectively what Gruber is saying. His kind of

00:56:05   argument is I don't know why they're doing it, I don't know if it's gonna be

00:56:08   good or bad, I'm sure they have a reason, who knows what that reason is gonna be

00:56:12   maybe it's fine but this is just what Apple does. I want to throw one more

00:56:17   thing in here Jason which is MFI certification. I've seen a couple of

00:56:21   people mention this but this is the idea is MFI is made for iPhone by the way in

00:56:26   case you don't know that. A lot of people say MFI but it means made for iPhone.

00:56:29   It is Apple's certification of products that use the lightning connector.

00:56:34   They need to have a chip in them, which Apple allows, and then they say, "Yes, rubber stamp,

00:56:38   you can make this product."

00:56:40   In the world where we have no headphone jack anymore, all wired headphones will need to

00:56:45   be MFI certified because they will run through lightning, most likely.

00:56:49   Well, all wired headphones that don't just use an adapter.

00:56:52   Yeah.

00:56:53   If they're lightning headphones, they will need to be MFI certified.

00:56:56   Sure.

00:56:57   Yep.

00:56:58   So if you want to...

00:56:59   to plug it directly in there without some kind of crazy or ugly adapter you will need to be certified

00:57:03   by Apple. This is going to cause delays and products being launched. This will actually make

00:57:07   I think a lot of people stop wanting to make headphones right they just won't make them because

00:57:11   why would you go through this they'll just say well you need to get an adapter this is on you

00:57:14   but I'm sure this will be easy for Beats right? Beats is part of Apple they will have lightning

00:57:21   headphones and I'm sure this is another reason why Apple bought them because when they I'm sure

00:57:26   made this decision, I think probably made this decision before they bought Beats, it's probably

00:57:30   one of the reasons that they did it because they will be able to make this change whenever they do

00:57:34   make this change and have products in the market immediately that are not just Apple's products.

00:57:40   Because I don't think people, I don't think the general public who buy Beats products

00:57:44   know that Apple owns them. I just don't think that that is a thing. Like it's because Apple

00:57:48   have never done anything publicly like outwardly to do this right? They just feature them in product

00:57:54   shots but it's not like beats by apple or you know it does they didn't change any of

00:57:57   that so I think this is maybe one of the reasons why apple bought beats is it gives them the

00:58:01   ability when they do finally make this move to push in to it. Steve Strezor also wrote

00:58:08   a really great piece that breaks down a lot of John Gruber's arguments as well that I

00:58:12   just saw you put into the document Jason.

00:58:14   Yeah it's just it's another it's another good piece about this where he he so there's Nille

00:58:22   then there's Gruber's piece and then Steve Strese wrote a really nice critique of Gruber's

00:58:25   piece that Gruber linked to. Full credit to Gruber. He definitely wanted to cover the

00:58:33   bases here and get some other views in.

00:58:35   And there is an episode of the talk show where Marco has come with an outline. I have just

00:58:40   got to that part so I haven't heard it yet. So maybe we can do some follow up on it based

00:58:46   there because I fully expect Marco to have the opinion that you're probably about to have.

00:58:52   Yep. So I would be interested in hearing the conversation that Marco and John had but I

00:58:58   unfortunately have not finished that part yet so I will not be able to point that out. So, yeah.

00:59:04   There must be a reason, right? This is something that many people are holding on to, Jason. It's

00:59:11   It's like, there must be a reason.

00:59:12   Apple has a reason.

00:59:13   They have always had reasons.

00:59:15   - So first thing, I wanna point to a piece

00:59:19   that Michael Gartenberg wrote on iMore this morning

00:59:21   that is hilarious because it's just,

00:59:22   we don't know jack about the next iPhone.

00:59:24   And this is a point that I think I made

00:59:26   when we touched on this subject a few months ago,

00:59:28   which is, it's a rumor.

00:59:31   It's not real.

00:59:32   And I'm unclear how much energy I wanna put

00:59:38   into arguing about a rumor, arguing about, and ultimately Gruber, I disagree with a lot

00:59:47   of the arguments Gruber made. I'm, I, and I agreed with a lot of the arguments that

00:59:51   Neelay made and that Steve Strese made. What I would say is Gruber makes one very good

00:59:57   point, which is we don't actually know any of the details. There's just a rumor that

01:00:04   there's no headphone jack. That's it. We don't know Apple's reasons why, we don't know any

01:00:09   benefits that Apple might cite. So we're kind of, we all have to project our own feelings,

01:00:17   we have to, we bring our own biases, we imagine the scenario because the scenario doesn't

01:00:23   exist yet. And that is a challenge because we can't hear, we don't know the whole picture,

01:00:30   So we have to make some guesses. And I'm always reluctant to spend too much time on things

01:00:36   that are not actually real.

01:00:38   But this happens a lot though, right? Like we get a rumor, we don't have the full picture,

01:00:42   but there's still credit to the argument and eventually said thing happens. It doesn't

01:00:47   always work this way, but it does work this way.

01:00:50   And it's not like we don't talk about things that are rumored, we talked about like that

01:00:52   the rumored touchscreen OLED thing on the MacBook Pro a little bit, but you always have

01:00:56   to step carefully because you have to call out when you're making assumptions about it.

01:01:03   We don't know what the rumored OLED touchscreen thing is and how it will be used and until

01:01:10   you hear the whole story you can make some assumptions about it but those could be right

01:01:14   or wrong because you're putting your own guesses in there. So I think it's worth pointing out

01:01:19   this is a thing that is a rumor and we don't know the details or if it will actually happen.

01:01:26   all said, "Yeah, you know, I don't know, Myke. The problem is that--what I agree with Nili

01:01:35   is in absence of a good explanation of why now is the time and why this makes the iPhone

01:01:40   7, presumably, if that's what it's called, a better product, and I haven't heard Apple's

01:01:46   arguments, and quite frankly, although John's piece is carefully constructed, I feel like

01:01:52   John fails to make any good arguments about why. His arguments tend to be, and in fact

01:01:57   he says, he says "I didn't even argue that the change would be good for users, I just

01:02:00   argued that it could, but we don't know yet. It also might be stupid and user hostile."

01:02:04   "Well, because this is the thing, there is no reason now that we have that this could

01:02:10   be good. There is none. There is zero reason." "And let me be blunt here, a lot of the Apple

01:02:15   fans who I have seen give arguments for why this is good, I think their arguments are

01:02:20   not good enough. Like, why would you buy a new iPhone that takes away the headphone jack

01:02:26   and doesn't offer you any particularly tangible benefits? Why would that be a user? And I

01:02:31   hear things like, well, it's getting things out of the way now so that when they have

01:02:35   to have one because they're going to have an edge-to-edge screen version of the iPhone

01:02:38   in 2017, it's like, really? So Apple's whole strategy here is we're giving you less so

01:02:43   you'll get used to it? And that's how they're going to sell new iPhones in the fall? That

01:02:46   doesn't seem like a good argument to me.

01:02:48   - Yeah, 'cause this is one of those things

01:02:49   where that could well be the reason, right?

01:02:52   Like, okay, let's just say that like one of,

01:02:55   it's not a thickness issue or whatever,

01:02:58   but it's an issue of--

01:03:00   - You don't bring the pain without the benefit.

01:03:02   Save it for the year where you have this amazing screen,

01:03:05   edge to edge screen, OLED 10th anniversary iPhone,

01:03:09   and that you can't put a headphone jack in.

01:03:11   That's when you take the headphone jack out,

01:03:13   'cause you say, "Look, I know you don't get

01:03:15   "the headphone jack now, but see why?

01:03:16   "See this amazing thing you get.

01:03:18   "Here are all the benefits you get from us taking it out."

01:03:21   You don't take it out a year before and say,

01:03:22   "Yeah, this year's phone kinda sucks,

01:03:24   "but hey, next year's phone will be great."

01:03:26   Because that's malpractice on Apple's part if they did that.

01:03:29   - Sure, I mean, but I can kinda see the view

01:03:33   that would be taken behind closed doors of that,

01:03:35   which is if we do this now, it stops next year,

01:03:40   the air being sucked out of the room.

01:03:42   - I fear for Apple if their strategy is

01:03:44   make bad products now so that people

01:03:46   won't complain as much later.

01:03:47   But what I'm saying is like this could be a business decision behind closed doors, but that's not the reason they give

01:03:53   But this could be part of why they do it now. There might be a benefit

01:03:57   They tell you that you're gonna get

01:03:59   But the reason they do it this year is before the big one next year because they don't want the headlines to be Apple removes

01:04:05   Headphone, but I'm saying it might be like and I don't think that Apple is above this type of thing because they're a company like

01:04:12   There are people this is just how decisions are made that they might decide to make the bad decision now

01:04:17   but there might be, as I say, there might be tangible benefits. There will be reasons

01:04:22   that they say they're doing this. They're not going to say, "On stage, we're removing

01:04:26   this now because next year's phone's going to be even better." But it might be a business

01:04:30   decision to do it in this design rather than the next design.

01:04:34   What I'm saying is, if it's a business decision and there's no good reason why, and it's just

01:04:38   for that, they may come up with some things that are little fig leafs that they can put

01:04:42   over and say, "Oh no, no, no, this is better because as I sit here trying to think what

01:04:47   those stories are that they could tell, I have a hard time coming up with one that's

01:04:51   a legitimate story. Well yeah, I have not, I haven't got one either. Right? But I'm

01:04:54   saying this might be what I'm doing. It's more like, "Oh well, digital is better,"

01:04:57   but like, sound is analogue, so digital isn't better. At some point you have to convert

01:05:01   from digital to analogue. You can move it to an external digital analogue converter

01:05:05   that will probably be worse than the one that's in the iPhone. And, you know, in the end,

01:05:10   'cause I've heard that argument, like, "Oh well, you know, digital is better." It's

01:05:13   yeah except sound is analog it doesn't matter it doesn't it literally you know

01:05:17   that is not that is not an argument or I get it's a hundred year old plug so it's

01:05:23   time for it to go it's like okay or Gruber's argument is does do you think

01:05:28   that we're going to have a headphone jacks forever it's like well no we're

01:05:31   not gonna have it weren't but again we're all gonna die right so I guess we

01:05:35   should just give up now it's like no to everything there is a time tell me why

01:05:39   now is the time. Give me a good reason why now is the time. And if the answer is

01:05:43   well why not, that's not a good enough reason. What's the benefit we get?

01:05:47   Bluetooth isn't good enough as Gruber has said himself right? Next year is

01:05:51   always the the year that Bluetooth is gonna be great. And Bluetooth, I have

01:05:55   Bluetooth headphones, I have a Bluetooth receiver in my car, they are problematic.

01:05:59   They're better than they were, but I still have weird audio hiccups and I

01:06:03   still have issues and they still have to be charged. So wireless, and I talked to

01:06:08   people on Twitter about this and they seem to miss the point of like this is

01:06:11   you know they're like no they can be completely wireless well they have to

01:06:13   charge they have to charge so there will always be wires involved right but and

01:06:19   the headphone jack there's the compatibility issue again what you're

01:06:22   saying is the iPhone now is not compatible with all the headphones that

01:06:26   are out there unless you buy a dongle well again you could do that and

01:06:30   everybody could buy a dongle but having lived through the original iPhone where

01:06:33   you had to buy a dumb adapter just to get a lot of non-standard headphones to

01:06:37   fit, having had a palm trio where if I wanted to listen to music I had to buy a little adapter

01:06:42   because they used the weird like super mini micro like two and a half millimeter jack

01:06:47   instead of the standard jack. So that was terrible, that was an awful experience too.

01:06:52   I just think you know and the fact that this is not about this is not a computer accessory,

01:06:56   it's not a phone accessory, it's sort of a world wide device accessory. It's in speakers

01:07:03   it's in, you know, it's in AV equipment that have been installed and are going to be there

01:07:09   for years. It's sort of everywhere. This headphone jack is everywhere because it's lived so long.

01:07:14   And again, could, you know, should it live forever? Well, no, but when they got rid of

01:07:20   the floppy drive, one of the reasons that Apple could get rid of the floppy drive in

01:07:24   the iMac is because there, it was so clearly outmoded that people were already moving to

01:07:32   other media. And you saw, even when they asked Steve Jobs about it, he said, "Look, people

01:07:36   aren't going to back up to this thing, they're going to buy a zip drive, and we're not going

01:07:39   to stick a zip drive in here because it would drive up the price, people will just buy an

01:07:42   external drive if they want to do that." And people were, everybody had zip drives, the

01:07:47   floppy was irrelevant at that point, the floppy was most commonly used honestly by PC users

01:07:53   because you had to have a boot floppy at one point. So I think it's a bad analog to say

01:07:58   something like, you know, "This is like the floppy," because again, the floppy died when

01:08:04   it was very clear that consumers already had desperately sought out something that was

01:08:08   better. And that comes back to my point, which is, tell me why this is better. Tell me why

01:08:13   all of the incompatibility and pain we're going to go through of all of the other devices

01:08:18   that have these jacks that will now not work with our iPhones at all, or at least without

01:08:22   a special dongle that we buy from Apple for $19 or $29. Tell me why that pain is worth

01:08:28   it." And I've been thinking a lot about this and I can't come up with a good answer. I

01:08:34   can imagine what Apple will say, but I don't think what I imagine is not good enough to

01:08:41   to do this. And just saying it's inevitable someday so why not now it's just not a good

01:08:46   enough reason to motivate people to buy a new product that makes things less compatible.

01:08:50   The benefits of lightning over the dock connector were many, including the fact that it was

01:08:56   dramatically smaller and you could plug it in either direction and it was easier to insert.

01:09:01   There's so many reasons why it was better and Apple could do more with it.

01:09:04   And that was painful, but it was time.

01:09:07   Exactly right.

01:09:08   And it was time and there was a benefit.

01:09:09   And that was something that Apple controlled, so it was only on Apple devices.

01:09:12   And you were replacing an Apple proprietary with another Apple proprietary, where here

01:09:16   you're replacing a global century-long standard that still works pretty damn

01:09:22   well for everybody with what a proprietary thing I mean it's not it's

01:09:27   just it's not the same to go from proprietary to proprietary or to go from

01:09:31   standard to completely proprietary so yeah I so so again if Apple wants to

01:09:38   make a case I want to hear what the case is because maybe they can make a really

01:09:43   good case. I've yet to see any argument that makes it good enough for me to say,

01:09:50   "Oh, I see why that's worth the trade-off." I just haven't seen it. You know, is

01:09:54   wireless inevitable? Is Bluetooth or Bluetooth successor inevitable in terms

01:09:59   of headphones? Probably, although wired headphones are probably still going to

01:10:02   be around for quite a while. But why now? And why not now is not a good

01:10:09   enough answer. Give me a benefit. March of progress, great. March of progress means we

01:10:15   progress. March of progress isn't just about ripping things away. It's about ripping things

01:10:19   away because there are new things that are better, that are worth the pain of going through

01:10:24   the progress. Change for change's sake is not enough. You need to change to improve.

01:10:29   And yeah, sometimes that means two steps forward and one step back. You have to rip the band-aid

01:10:33   off. I get it. But it is up to the change agent to make the case about why it's good

01:10:38   that we leave this in the dust, and I have yet to hear a good argument for that. And

01:10:43   I do think that a theoretical brilliant iPhone that's edge-to-edge and gets rid of the home

01:10:49   button and has its all screen, and because it's all screen there's no way that a traditional

01:10:56   headphone jack would work, I'd be like, "Okay, okay Apple, I see why your awesome design

01:11:02   decisions make this a necessity for you. I see it." But if it's literally the same phone

01:11:07   we have now, it's, it's, you know, there are thinner Apple devices that have a headphone

01:11:12   jack so that's not it. What is the reason? You know, again, I just, I'm having a hard

01:11:18   time seeing it. I hope Apple can do, if this is real, I hope Apple can do a better job

01:11:22   of coming up with reasons why it's a good idea than the people who follow Apple on the

01:11:28   internet have come up with so far.

01:11:29   I'll tell you what concerns me. The reasons that they gave for why the MacBook has the

01:11:35   port that it has because the reasons that they gave were like Bluetooth's great, so's

01:11:41   wireless and we're moving things forward, it's time to move forward. Like that were

01:11:47   basically the reasons that they gave, right? It was like, because they didn't say like

01:11:50   we took these ports away to make this thing thinner. That was like, and now is thinner

01:11:57   and the ports are gone, right? But that's what concerns me.

01:12:01   They also moved from a non-standard Apple-invented technology in MagSafe to a standard with USB-C,

01:12:10   right?

01:12:11   This is the opposite direction.

01:12:12   But I'm just trying to think, what are the parallels?

01:12:16   And I guess the most recent thing that would have happened was the removal of all ports

01:12:22   except for the headphone jack, funnily enough, on the MacBook.

01:12:26   So I'm just trying to think, how could they say this?

01:12:29   And I thought, oh, well, they basically just said, Bluetooth's great, wireless is great,

01:12:34   right?

01:12:35   Like even though, I mean, not really for everything, let's be honest about this.

01:12:40   There's one other potential reason that I've seen floating around, which is better internal

01:12:47   speakers.

01:12:48   So imagine a world where, let's just say this for a moment and then we'll say, well, this

01:12:52   is likely impossible, that we have these amazing speakers on the iPad Pro right now and boy,

01:12:59   Do I love those speakers?

01:13:01   And I would love that quality of speaker in my iPhone,

01:13:05   'cause I use the speakers on my iPhone all the time at home.

01:13:09   But I don't want this at the expense of a headphone jack.

01:13:12   I just don't want that, right?

01:13:13   Like the great speakers are great.

01:13:15   The current speaker is fine.

01:13:16   I don't then wanna have to have lightning headphones

01:13:18   because I've got the good speakers,

01:13:20   because I can just use my iPad if I'm at home, right?

01:13:23   Which is where I use the speakers anyway.

01:13:26   But the other thing is to make these really good,

01:13:28   they need to do to the iPhone what they did to the iPad

01:13:30   to make a ton of space inside.

01:13:32   And that was at the expense, not the expense,

01:13:36   but that was at, instead of putting a lot more battery

01:13:38   in it, right, making the thing heavier,

01:13:40   but that's what they could have done,

01:13:41   but they didn't do that, they made the speakers instead.

01:13:44   I don't see how just removing the headphone jack

01:13:46   would give them enough space.

01:13:48   - Not a lot of space.

01:13:49   It's very small, nor do I see, I've seen the argument

01:13:52   that it will help with waterproofing,

01:13:54   but there are waterproof Android phones

01:13:56   that have headphone jacks, so that's not it.

01:13:58   Again, you gotta want to remove it.

01:14:01   And again, okay, tell me why,

01:14:04   but I haven't seen any good arguments.

01:14:06   And that's, I think that's the bottom line.

01:14:07   In the chat room, we just had a little back and forth.

01:14:09   It's like somebody in the chat room said,

01:14:11   "Look, Apple's betting on a future, that's what they do."

01:14:13   And my take on that is,

01:14:15   no, Apple doesn't sell future futures,

01:14:17   they sell products,

01:14:19   and they make good products that people wanna buy.

01:14:21   And Apple is often very opinionated

01:14:23   about what they have to take out of products

01:14:25   because they're holding Apple back

01:14:27   from making a better product for the future.

01:14:29   And that sometimes that's exciting

01:14:31   because Apple is ahead of the curve a little bit,

01:14:36   but their product is so great that, again,

01:14:39   you get the benefit of using it.

01:14:40   And it's like, yeah, it doesn't have a floppy,

01:14:41   but you totally want an iMac.

01:14:44   The danger is if you get too far ahead,

01:14:46   that people will reject it.

01:14:47   'Cause it's like, why would I want this G4 Cube

01:14:49   or whatever, right?

01:14:50   Why do I want this?

01:14:51   It's like G4 Cube was a really cool product,

01:14:53   but it was too much, too fast, too far ahead,

01:14:56   and it was just not, and there were other issues too, right?

01:14:59   But Apple is a product company.

01:15:02   They make products that people buy.

01:15:03   The iPhone of all products is the, you know,

01:15:06   one of the most important consumer products in the world.

01:15:08   It is by far the most important product to Apple.

01:15:11   Apple's design goal should always be

01:15:14   make a product people want.

01:15:16   And if Apple does go forward with this,

01:15:18   it will be interesting to see,

01:15:20   does Apple's opinionated design style apply to a product

01:15:24   with the broad appeal of an iPhone?

01:15:26   Does it apply or is that pushing it too far?

01:15:29   Can Apple push it on Macs,

01:15:32   but not necessarily push it quite as far on the iPhone?

01:15:35   I don't know, I don't know.

01:15:37   But I feel like, yeah, Apple's whole story

01:15:40   is about being not beholden to the past

01:15:43   and looking toward the future.

01:15:44   But at the same time,

01:15:45   they do need to sell products to consumers.

01:15:47   It needs to be a product people want.

01:15:49   If you have a product that is incompatible with everything

01:15:52   but really awesome,

01:15:53   that's gonna turn off a lot of people.

01:15:56   So again, I'm not saying there's no circumstance

01:16:00   under which I would want an iPhone without a headphone jack.

01:16:03   I'm not saying that at all.

01:16:05   What I'm saying is, and again,

01:16:06   this comes back to our biases and our guesses

01:16:09   about a product that as Michael Gartenberg said,

01:16:11   does not exist, it is a unicorn.

01:16:13   We'll see what the real product is

01:16:15   and what the real story is.

01:16:16   But if I were to say, imagine an iPhone 7

01:16:20   or a 6SSSP whatever, I don't know, let's say iPhone 7.

01:16:25   If I imagine that and it's essentially today's iPhone

01:16:29   with a better camera and a faster processor

01:16:31   and no headphone jack, would I as an iPhone buyer

01:16:35   want that product with that trade off of,

01:16:39   and again, that's probably not that simple.

01:16:42   It's probably gonna have a lot more that makes it appeal.

01:16:45   But if it was that simple, would I trade a headphone jack for a faster iPhone sort of

01:16:51   on the scale of the last iPhone update and maybe a better camera? For me, the answer

01:16:56   is no, it's not enough. So I am open to the possibility of a reason for me to trade

01:17:03   my headphone jack for something else, but I would like to hear what that is. And I haven't

01:17:09   heard it yet from anyone.

01:17:11   - Because there isn't a logical reason.

01:17:12   I think that's it.

01:17:13   And that's my fear.

01:17:14   I wanna give Apple a lot of credit here.

01:17:16   I would be shocked if Apple did something like this

01:17:19   without a story that made sense.

01:17:23   And it would actually make me really disappointed in them

01:17:27   if they did that.

01:17:27   Like if they made, like you said,

01:17:29   that business decision for some reason to do this thing

01:17:32   without as clear consumer benefit as there should be.

01:17:35   But I'm gonna give Apple the benefit of the doubt.

01:17:37   Apple tends not to make bad decisions like that.

01:17:42   they tend to make very smart, good decisions.

01:17:44   So we'll see.

01:17:46   We'll see.

01:17:47   If it's even real, again, unicorns, if it's even real.

01:17:50   There are no unicorns in my photo library either, Myke,

01:17:53   because there aren't any unicorns.

01:17:54   - Jason, would you like to talk about mail routes

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01:20:16   All right, so our first question this week comes from Will.

01:20:20   Will asks, do you think the SOS feature in watchOS 3

01:20:23   lends credence to the rumors of a cell radio

01:20:25   in the next Apple Watch?

01:20:26   So this was the idea that if there is an issue,

01:20:30   you can bring up the SOS and it will help call someone.

01:20:32   When they were showing that on stage,

01:20:34   I was like, huh, that's interesting.

01:20:36   and it says it's just gonna go through your phone,

01:20:37   but it would make an awful lot of sense

01:20:40   if there was a cell radio in the next watch

01:20:41   for a feature like this to exist.

01:20:43   - Yeah, I think I wrote a thing on Macworld about this,

01:20:45   and I kinda believe it's inevitable,

01:20:47   whether it's in the next one or not,

01:20:48   I think depends on how small can they get that cell radio,

01:20:51   what's the connection story,

01:20:53   and what does it mean for battery life.

01:20:56   But yeah, some Android Wear watches have it,

01:21:00   and it would, the more standalone the apps get,

01:21:03   which they're getting on watchOS 3,

01:21:04   and things like the SOS feature, sure.

01:21:06   I think there's so many reasons why it would be good.

01:21:09   I did write a whole article about it.

01:21:11   I think it's inevitable.

01:21:12   Whether it will happen next time or not remains to be seen.

01:21:15   I think it's purely a technical issue.

01:21:17   It is totally where the Apple Watch is going.

01:21:19   I think it's just a matter of can they do it?

01:21:22   Is the trade-off worth it?

01:21:25   Is the technology there to support that?

01:21:27   Can they get that in there?

01:21:28   Or is it just kind of a bridge too far for now

01:21:31   and it'll have to be something that happens down the road?

01:21:34   Dale asks, "When the new watch hardware comes out,

01:21:37   do you think the first model will stick around

01:21:39   at a lower price point?"

01:21:40   I don't, because then there'll be so many watches,

01:21:44   because they already have multiple versions and additions

01:21:48   and straps and all that kind of stuff.

01:21:50   I don't think that there's gonna be

01:21:52   the old hardware for cheaper.

01:21:54   I think you might be able to get them refurbed

01:21:56   and stuff like that for a while,

01:21:57   but I'd be really surprised

01:21:59   if they keep the original watch around.

01:22:01   - Yeah, I agree.

01:22:03   it could happen but I think they're going to want to just say here's the new

01:22:07   Apple Watch and that's it and then the old ones will go away and the new ones

01:22:11   will come and that will be the end of it. I do think Apple would probably like to

01:22:17   get the base model lower in price but they might be able to do that with a

01:22:22   new model as well. It's possible that they will do the you know a step and a

01:22:27   half thing where the new watch looks more or less like the old watch and they

01:22:31   keep a version of the old watch around at a lower price point and just say it has fewer

01:22:35   features and it might even be slightly changed but essentially the first model. I could see

01:22:40   a scenario where that happens but the simplest scenario is just to clear the decks and stop

01:22:46   making the old one and just start making a new one.

01:22:48   Yeah, Joe Steele says in the chat room they might just keep the old sport around. They

01:22:52   could do that. They could do that but I think it would just be messy but we'll see. I mean

01:22:57   it's not the first time they've done this.

01:22:59   If all the bands are compatible, then I think they could keep it around.

01:23:04   If those bands aren't compatible, I'm gonna find someone, because I bought so many of

01:23:09   these things.

01:23:10   I know, I know.

01:23:11   I hope they are.

01:23:12   I think that that would be dumb for them to break the compatibility so quickly, but, you

01:23:17   know, hey, Apple breaks compatibility all the time.

01:23:21   That's what I'm told.

01:23:22   They move forward on it, right?

01:23:23   They just dream about the future, the future of watch straps.

01:23:27   wants to know when is Myke going to cave and buy a MacBook to be like CGP Grey. I really

01:23:32   love Grey's naming of MacBook adorable and I think I need to start using that in more

01:23:36   places. I think it's such a fantastic name. I am going to wait and see for the next MacBook

01:23:41   Pro and then I'm going to make my buying decision. Basically because I only ever travel with

01:23:48   a laptop now and I take a laptop with me in case I need to do any logic based editing

01:23:52   whilst traveling. And that thing is so big and heavy, my 13-inch MacBook Pro when compared

01:23:58   to my iPad, right? Like I bring the 9.7-inch iPad with me when I travel. I want to replace

01:24:03   it with a thin and light laptop. I would love it to be a MacBook because it's the thinnest

01:24:07   and lightest, but I want to see how thin and how light the next MacBook Pros are, how powerful

01:24:13   they are, and what other features it might have, and then I'll make a decision from then

01:24:16   on. But I'm going to wait.

01:24:18   You and Gray talked about this, and I think it's a good point, which is when your use

01:24:22   case changes, your priorities change. And if you are, and he was doing this, if you

01:24:28   are buying a laptop because you use it when you travel, and that's when you use your laptop,

01:24:33   you have to have one because you do need a Mac when you travel, but you now don't use

01:24:39   it the rest of the time, you're just using it for travel. Well, you know what, that's

01:24:43   probably a different Mac than the Mac you would buy if you were using it on your desk

01:24:47   every day or around the house a lot. It suddenly the portability aspects become way more important

01:24:54   and the MacBook becomes important. I did laugh when you guys did that podcast and he realized

01:24:59   that because he had the microphone plugged into the one USB port that his battery was

01:25:04   draining and it went run out. That was a beautiful moment. Welcome to the MacBook.

01:25:08   - Yeah, he knew this was happening and didn't tell me

01:25:12   because he didn't want to worry me.

01:25:14   And he also didn't, I didn't think to mention to him,

01:25:19   did you buy the adapter?

01:25:20   'Cause I just assumed that he would have bought the adapter.

01:25:22   - Yeah.

01:25:23   - That isn't what happened.

01:25:24   - And then he dropped that information later on.

01:25:25   That was funny.

01:25:26   I was listening to that actually

01:25:27   when I came in to pick you guys up

01:25:29   to come over to my house for dinner.

01:25:32   And it was kind of funny

01:25:33   'cause I was listening to that coming into the city.

01:25:36   And then when I was dropping everybody off,

01:25:37   you guys were in the car and I was like, wait a second,

01:25:40   those same voices are in my car again,

01:25:41   but now it's the people.

01:25:44   It's like there was a podcast going on

01:25:46   in the backseat of my car.

01:25:47   - There were very, there's always lots of moments

01:25:49   at WWDC when I get to hear podcasts happening,

01:25:52   which is always fun to me.

01:25:54   - It is pretty funny.

01:25:55   It's like, oh, those are voices from a podcast.

01:25:57   - Or when I hear two people talk and think,

01:25:59   oh, maybe they will be good on a podcast together.

01:26:02   That happened in a couple of places.

01:26:03   - Yeah, see.

01:26:05   Chris said, "With iOS 10 focusing so much on 3D touch,

01:26:08   will the next iPhone SE have to include it?"

01:26:11   - Have to?

01:26:16   No, I think so many iOS devices don't have 3D touch

01:26:19   that there's going to be an alternative.

01:26:22   And the iPhone SE, you know, next iPhone SE,

01:26:25   I think is gonna be like a year and a half, two years away.

01:26:27   So I think maybe it will include it.

01:26:31   Does it have to?

01:26:32   I don't know, maybe, maybe not.

01:26:33   but it might only because what does an iPhone SE

01:26:37   look like in two years?

01:26:37   Will it still be, look like an iPhone 5

01:26:41   or will they redesign it while keeping it in that size?

01:26:45   That's my guess.

01:26:46   I think if they redesign it,

01:26:47   they will put 3D touch in it, how about that?

01:26:50   But if it looks like it does now, then no.

01:26:52   Because then they're saying, we're just gonna leave it.

01:26:54   We're just gonna keep it as cheap as we can

01:26:56   by doing as little as we can.

01:26:58   Adding the 3D touch adds weight and it adds complexity

01:27:03   and do they wanna do that or not?

01:27:04   So if they redesign it, I say yes, otherwise no.

01:27:08   But I think it'll be a year and a half

01:27:09   before we see a new iPhone SE.

01:27:11   - Yeah, I do too, I do too.

01:27:14   And I think if they do do another one,

01:27:16   they will put 3D touch in it.

01:27:19   But 'cause I think there will be a new design to it,

01:27:21   I don't think that they will make another one

01:27:23   that looks like this.

01:27:24   We'll see though, I mean, but I would be surprised.

01:27:28   But I think 3D touch will be more important.

01:27:31   But we'll see, I mean,

01:27:32   I don't know what they're going to do there in regards to the iPad.

01:27:38   I know.

01:27:39   You've got to have alternate gestures for this stuff.

01:27:42   That's all I mean because it's going to be a long time before you can count on iOS devices

01:27:47   to have 3D Touch everywhere if it even gets to the iPad.

01:27:49   I think they're going to have to.

01:27:51   I like Federico.

01:27:53   Federico wrote this great post about the iPad with WWDC and he mentioned that he doesn't

01:28:01   think he will see 3D Touch come to the iPad. He's extremely supposed to see it as I would,

01:28:07   but mentioned that he believes that there will be some kind of swipe or touch action

01:28:14   that they will just use on the iPad.

01:28:17   You could do even a multi-touch action like a two-finger tap or something like that is

01:28:22   the equivalent of a 3D. There are lots of things they could do, and I think they will.

01:28:25   I think there will be an equivalent gesture for non-3D Touch devices for these features,

01:28:29   because they want everybody to use these features,

01:28:31   not just 3D touch devices.

01:28:32   They're just marketing 3D touch.

01:28:34   They're talking it up.

01:28:35   I like, look at the awesome things you can do with 3D touch.

01:28:37   And there's an alternative if you don't,

01:28:39   but we're not gonna talk about that.

01:28:40   - I think that 3D touch in its current iteration

01:28:43   will never come to the iPad.

01:28:44   I just don't think it works.

01:28:46   With the screens being as large as they can be,

01:28:50   like imagine a 12.9,

01:28:51   imagine holding the 12.9 in the bottom left-hand corner

01:28:54   and 3D touching something in the top right,

01:28:56   that thing is not staying in your hand, right?

01:28:57   like you're gonna lose that thing.

01:28:59   So that's why I don't expect it to happen,

01:29:01   but we'll see what happens there.

01:29:03   Finally today, we had another Will.

01:29:05   We have three Wills right in today.

01:29:07   - Amazing.

01:29:09   - So the third Will mentioned,

01:29:11   did you see the Apple Watch Pride Band

01:29:14   that they were giving out to employees?

01:29:15   Did you see this?

01:29:17   - I did, it's a beautiful thing.

01:29:19   - It really was, it was Pride yesterday in a few locations.

01:29:22   I think there's different days for Pride parades

01:29:25   in different places around the world,

01:29:26   - No, in the US they were all yesterday, I think.

01:29:29   - Okay, so maybe I'm wrong on that.

01:29:31   But there was the pride march in San Francisco yesterday.

01:29:34   - For sure.

01:29:34   - A parade and all Apple employees, I believe,

01:29:37   got given a rainbow nylon band, which I want desperately.

01:29:41   - That was Will's question, right?

01:29:43   How much do you want one?

01:29:44   You say desperately.

01:29:45   I say as the proprietor of six colors,

01:29:48   yeah, kinda do, kinda.

01:29:51   I thought that looked beautiful.

01:29:52   That's a beautiful thing.

01:29:54   So my feeling is, get yourself an eBay watch

01:29:59   because there will be some I'm sure.

01:30:01   We'll just have to keep an eye out for it.

01:30:04   I mean, I'm sure there are third party ones

01:30:05   but I'm not in the third party band camp,

01:30:09   band camp as it is right now because I don't,

01:30:13   I just hate the idea of my watch slipping off my wrist

01:30:16   'cause I bought a nylon band in San Francisco,

01:30:19   an Apple one and the lugs didn't lock in.

01:30:21   Now that's on an Apple one.

01:30:23   So these things can go wrong.

01:30:25   I am not, I don't wanna,

01:30:27   I just don't wanna be in that world.

01:30:30   - Our expert Joe Steele says,

01:30:32   "Pride's on all different weekends."

01:30:34   This was the Pride weekend in San Francisco.

01:30:35   - There we go.

01:30:36   - LA was a couple of weeks ago, Portland was last week.

01:30:39   So yes, thank you for the real time feedback.

01:30:42   San Francisco, see the thing is reading the coverage here

01:30:44   in San Francisco, San Francisco, as far as it's concerned,

01:30:46   this is the only one.

01:30:48   Like, that's like very San Francisco, right?

01:30:50   It's like, no, no, this is the real one.

01:30:52   All the others are whatever.

01:30:53   Are there others? We don't even know.

01:30:55   - 'Cause London was this weekend,

01:30:56   but I think it was on a different day.

01:30:58   - Interesting.

01:30:59   So what I would say is also,

01:31:02   there's still an opportunity here.

01:31:03   This was done in the rainbow sequence,

01:31:07   the like ROYGBIV sequence,

01:31:10   definitely meant to match the pride flag

01:31:12   and things like that,

01:31:13   which means Apple still has an opportunity

01:31:15   to make a nylon band in the six rainbow Apple color sequence

01:31:19   which is different.

01:31:21   So still an opportunity out there, Apple, for everyone else.

01:31:26   - For everybody else.

01:31:27   - Yeah, but it's a beautiful thing.

01:31:30   And yeah, I might look around on eBay.

01:31:33   I might.

01:31:34   - You should.

01:31:35   All right, that brings us to the end of this week's episode.

01:31:37   Or maybe if you're an Apple employee

01:31:38   and you wanna send yours to Jason as a gift,

01:31:41   get in touch with him.

01:31:42   - I wasn't gonna say that, Myke.

01:31:44   - I'll say it for you.

01:31:45   - I was thinking it, but I wasn't gonna say it.

01:31:47   - You know, if you are an Apple employee--

01:31:49   - I'll look on eBay.

01:31:49   You're a big fan of the show.

01:31:52   I think you should get in contact with Jason.

01:31:54   I'm sure he's probably--

01:31:55   Jason@sixcolors.com.

01:31:56   - Stop, enough, enough.

01:31:57   - I assume is your email address.

01:31:58   - Enough, enough.

01:31:59   Stop the begging.

01:32:00   - And then you can let him know.

01:32:01   - It's not sophisticated, it's not civilized.

01:32:03   It's embarrassing.

01:32:04   You're embarrassing me.

01:32:06   Stop.

01:32:07   Jason@sixcolors.com.

01:32:09   - Jason is also on Twitter for no other reason

01:32:11   than just to tweet at him about other things.

01:32:13   He is @jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L.

01:32:16   He writes over at sixcolors.com,

01:32:17   podcasts at the incomparable .com,

01:32:19   and also at Relay FM as well. He does other shows and just the show with me, he does the

01:32:22   lovely Clockwise with Mr. Dan Morin and also the amazing Lift Off with Mr. Stephen Hackett.

01:32:29   So you can go and listen to those there if you like. I am on Twitter, I am @imike, I

01:32:33   am YKE and I host many shows on Relay FM as well. Two minute list so just go and take

01:32:38   a look. There's a, I think, I don't know, like a 25% chance I'm on the show maybe, maybe

01:32:43   a little bit more than that. So just go to the site, subscribe to the master feed and

01:32:48   just press play at random.

01:32:50   - The number of podcasts that we have between us is enormous.

01:32:55   - Yeah, we effectively between me and you

01:32:58   have our own cottage industry.

01:32:59   - Yeah, it's a big cottage too.

01:33:02   - That's right, we have a mansion industry.

01:33:05   Thanks again to our sponsors this week,

01:33:07   the lovely people at Mail Route,

01:33:09   Freshbooks and Ministry of Supply.

01:33:11   Thank you for listening as always

01:33:13   and we'll be back next time.

01:33:14   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:33:16   - Goodbye everybody.

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