86: The Cloud With the Question Mark


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode number 86. Today's show is brought to you by ITProTV,

00:00:16   FreshBooks and Casper. My name is Myke Hurley. I'm joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:21   Myke, welcome back. Thank you so much. I have an immediate piece

00:00:25   of follow-up before we even discuss any more pleasantries.

00:00:28   the fastest follow-up ever. What on earth was that music last week? What was that? So

00:00:35   we've had, so when Chris Breen did our theme music back in like September of 2014, he did

00:00:43   a first version and I liked it, but it was like all the famous, as anybody who's listened

00:00:49   knows, the super synthy background and then the foreground was the super synthy instrument

00:00:56   too. And so my response to him was, "This sounds great. It is so synthy, could we make

00:01:06   the lead something different like an electric guitar or something like that?" And he's like,

00:01:10   "Yeah, yeah, I see that. That's a good idea." And so he did the version that everybody's

00:01:15   heard which is the electric guitar-ish lead instead of the super-buzzy synth lead. But

00:01:20   I kept the other version around. It's been in our upgrade dropbox this entire time, actually.

00:01:24   I've never heard it. Because the art, the music, the original music for this show, I

00:01:30   never heard. The first time I heard it was in the released episode because you put it

00:01:34   together. Yeah, I just decided it would be fun since I, again, my entire life when you

00:01:39   were not around is ways of doing weird things to upgrade because Myke's not here to keep

00:01:44   it straight on the level. So yeah, in our upgrade there's an upgrade theme original

00:01:50   file and then there's upgrade theme guitar which is the one that we've used for the

00:01:54   and but but you know those are inside a folder and you built the thing with the

00:01:57   Mac the original Mac you know the Mac SE boot

00:02:01   sound and the music and fade outs and all that you built those into our intro

00:02:04   and the outro and so those are generally what gets

00:02:06   used but I went back to the original as a little easter egg and I was waiting

00:02:09   for somebody to notice it and the first person to notice it was Brian

00:02:13   Hamilton so good job Brian for noticing it was a

00:02:16   little different uh it's the same you know it's the same

00:02:19   melody and everything it was just a different instrument

00:02:21   It was like extra 80s, extra, extra synth-y.

00:02:24   Yeah.

00:02:25   Super, super synth.

00:02:26   That was it?

00:02:27   So I just came back from America again.

00:02:29   I know.

00:02:30   I don't have any more trips to America until WWDC, which we're both going to be around...

00:02:35   Well, two whole months between international trips to the US.

00:02:38   Amazing, Myke.

00:02:39   Amazing.

00:02:40   Two months.

00:02:41   Look at my record so far this year.

00:02:42   I've been back and forth quite a bit.

00:02:44   I know.

00:02:45   I'm very excited for WWDC, just because there's been all the tickets and everything.

00:02:51   that's gone on sale. You didn't apply for a ticket, did you?

00:02:56   No. No. So yeah I'm excited. It's fever starting to hit, you know, and we're doing

00:03:04   some different things this year. You know, we haven't spoken about RelayCon.

00:03:08   RelayCon San Francisco is going to be happening. Jason's going to be joining us for that.

00:03:13   We're really excited. It sold out way faster than we expected it would, which

00:03:19   is amazing. So everybody who's coming, I can't wait to see you there. There is a wait list.

00:03:27   We're hoping, well not hoping, but there is a potential that some people may have to cancel

00:03:31   their tickets, right? So we might have a few more go on sale, but we already have way more

00:03:37   on the wait list than we could ever get to because we don't have a huge, huge venue.

00:03:42   It's pretty amazing. So it's at the Minute Gallery, it's Monday night, we're going to

00:03:46   do a live podcast and it's gonna be the three connected boys and me and Serenity Caldwell

00:03:52   talking presumably about the news of the day.

00:03:54   - Yeah, yeah, so what we're thinking is we'll be breaking it all down and asking, I'll be

00:03:58   kind of hosting both sections of the show, so I'll be talking to all of the lovely people

00:04:05   joining me, so as I say, Steven and Federico and then you and Ran about the events of the

00:04:10   day.

00:04:11   I'm excited this year because all of my podcasting will happen on Monday. That's it. Then I'm

00:04:17   done for the week, which last year, it was a disaster. I was doing it all over the week.

00:04:22   My hair was basically coming out. It was ridiculous. But yeah, we'll be doing upgrade kind of as

00:04:26   soon as we can after, right?

00:04:28   Right.

00:04:29   Maybe we'll just do it in the car. Like, we'll just go for a drive, me and you. And then

00:04:34   we'll be doing the relaycon stuff in the evening. So it's all going to go out. The whole event

00:04:39   will be recorded and put out as the connected episode. Matt asked in the chat room if we

00:04:46   stream it live. We will strongly be attempting to stream live and he also said we'll be in

00:04:53   a video. No plans for video. We don't want to buy off more than we can chew in this first

00:04:59   instance which is why we also kept the attendance to a modest number so we could manage that.

00:05:06   It's the first time we've done something on this scale.

00:05:09   The Atlanta Pen Show is like our pregame for this, right?

00:05:12   Because this time we did it with an audience, but it's a lot more controlled there than

00:05:17   it will, because we basically set up and run everything ourselves.

00:05:21   But we'll be working with the great people at the Minute Gallery.

00:05:25   So really excited.

00:05:26   This is our first big event, I think.

00:05:29   Yeah, I think so.

00:05:31   And it's great that so many people signed up.

00:05:33   an amazing thing too because you know when you put down your deposit for the venue and

00:05:38   you think well you know are we going to be able to is anybody going to come you know

00:05:41   we all have those fears that it's going to be like you know five of us on stage and three

00:05:45   people in the audience right but that didn't happen so that's that's that's great that's

00:05:52   that's great it's the relaycon series of little mini events rolls on which i think it's a

00:05:59   I think is awesome. So I'm looking forward to it too. We'll have to figure out sometime

00:06:05   we're going to do clockwise that week.

00:06:06   But oh yeah, I'm sure I'll be roped in there.

00:06:10   You may have to do that. But yeah, you know, the live stream, I listened to a little bit

00:06:14   of the live stream from the Atlanta Pens, you know, and it sounded great. So, you know,

00:06:18   I'm sure we'll try to do that for this. But who knows, it's a big live event with lots

00:06:22   of people and drinks and things. So we'll see how the, how the, and it's in downtown

00:06:28   in San Francisco, so how the internet is and all of that. But it should be fun.

00:06:33   I'll probably cry on stage. If we don't stream it live, it doesn't matter.

00:06:37   That episode is going to come out probably pretty soon thereafter.

00:06:40   Yeah. Since it's a live episode, it'll probably

00:06:43   just get posted pretty fast. Yeah, probably the same day. I did it with

00:06:46   the pen show. I just went straight upstairs to my hotel room and put it out. Because as

00:06:49   soon as I was done, I was like, "Ah, I'm going to get the episode out!" That was how I felt.

00:06:53   It's getting old! So I just posted it as quick as I could. Everybody was having a pizza party

00:06:57   and I'm just upstairs in my hotel room on my own with a glass of bourbon. That

00:07:02   was that was how I did it. Right so I wanted to provide a little bit more

00:07:05   follow-up. I was on Mac Power Users this week talking about my my current iPad

00:07:11   foray. My multiple iPad life. Your many iPads yeah. And the episode is called

00:07:17   Myke Hurley, Collector of iPads which I really loved. It was it was a lot of fun.

00:07:22   KT was very mad at me. It was great. It's a really fun episode. I only really felt like

00:07:31   I scratched the surface as to the sort of stuff that I'm doing with my iPad now. This

00:07:36   is something that I somehow feel like I've become a bit of a champion of now. I feel

00:07:42   like I'm right there with Federico, you know, in trying to preach the ways of the iPad.

00:07:50   So I suggest to go listen to that because I think it was a great conversation and it's

00:07:54   going into a little bit more detail, some of them more nitty-gritty than I've spoken

00:07:59   about in some other places about this recently.

00:08:01   So if you're thinking about the iPad life, which many people are, and getting more and

00:08:05   more people who are telling me they're going all in on iPad, then that's the place to go

00:08:09   pick up some top tips.

00:08:10   Yeah, that's great.

00:08:12   I want to mention, so last week we had Dan and Scott on and we had a lot of fun.

00:08:17   It was almost like my version of connected.

00:08:19   - Yeah, it was, yeah.

00:08:20   It felt very much like that.

00:08:22   It was more jovial, you know?

00:08:23   - Yes, the three-person dynamic is very different

00:08:25   from the two-person dynamic, and I did enjoy it.

00:08:28   It reminds me, once again,

00:08:30   that we should probably have guests on more often,

00:08:32   because the three-person dynamic is kind of fun,

00:08:36   and I've enjoyed it.

00:08:37   The times we had Greg Noss on, we had Scott McNulty on,

00:08:40   we've had Wren on.

00:08:41   It would be fun to do that a little bit more,

00:08:44   but the new Kindle that we talked about last time

00:08:47   does arrive later this week,

00:08:49   So perhaps we'll check in with our Kindle expert, Mr. McNulty, at some point if he's

00:08:55   available. I haven't talked to him about this, but so we'll do the follow-up after the new

00:09:02   Kindle arrives and maybe do a little, like we did with Wren and the Pencil, like a quick

00:09:07   visit to just follow up on the actual product now that it has arrived.

00:09:12   It's just another thing that we're innovating on. Follow-up guests.

00:09:15   Yeah, oh yeah, that's all part of it.

00:09:18   Nobody does that.

00:09:19   Is it a follow-up, but you reach out to the...

00:09:23   Let's not do this.

00:09:24   We don't need to name it, Jason.

00:09:25   I wonder what we would call that.

00:09:27   We don't need to name it.

00:09:30   I saw some news last night that I was just interested to get your take on.

00:09:33   So Vox Media, the parent company of Vox and The Verge and many more, an increasingly growing

00:09:40   amount of websites, launched a new kind of site yesterday.

00:09:46   It's a different site.

00:09:48   It's a different thing. It's kind of weird. It's called Circuit Breaker.

00:09:53   Is it different? Or is it strangely familiar?

00:09:57   Well, basically, they're calling it a gadget blog. So not focusing on startups and the

00:10:05   culture of startups. There's a lot of that now, right? Look at sites like The Verge and

00:10:11   obviously TechCrunch and Gadget. Not only do they talk about the products, but they also

00:10:15   talk about the companies. I like that, a lot of people do, which is why it's gone like

00:10:20   this, but they're basically going into talking more about just the products themselves, which

00:10:26   is interesting in and of itself that they're giving that a go again. But the thing that

00:10:33   I find the most interesting is their publishing method. It's very peculiar. So it exists on

00:10:41   the Verge, theverge.com/circuitbreaker, and you can read the gadget-related posts.

00:10:48   But they're putting the majority of their focus into publishing on Facebook.

00:10:54   And it's at facebook.com/circuitbreaker, and they've got instant articles and they're

00:10:58   going to be doing a lot of the live-streaming video stuff.

00:11:03   And this is interesting to me because why?

00:11:07   Why Facebook?

00:11:08   Well, Facebook is a huge driver of traffic. And if you've ever, I was using it, I don't

00:11:13   use it a lot, but I was using it, I'm using it more because we started an incomparable

00:11:17   group. And it's one of these private groups, which is not private, except that it lets

00:11:22   you kick people out if they're spammers. So everybody who, if you want to sign up, you

00:11:27   can just go find the incomparable Zeppelin hangar and join and we'll approve you. But

00:11:32   that's making me use Facebook more. And actually it's a pretty good community area. I like

00:11:36   it a lot. And I'm using the instant articles a little bit more and realizing, "Oh, yeah,

00:11:42   this is pretty compelling that I see why they're doing that. They do feel instant." And a lot

00:11:47   of traffic comes from Facebook. There's a huge audience on Facebook. They are innovating

00:11:52   with things like the live video stuff that they're doing, which is, you know, is live

00:11:57   video new? No. Is integrating it in this tightly with Facebook interesting? Yeah, it really

00:12:03   So I don't know, this seems like a combination of some PR spin with some reality. Like the

00:12:09   way that the New York Times article about this came out, it seemed like, well, it's

00:12:16   a Facebook page instead of a blog. But it's like, no, it's a blog and it's on Facebook.

00:12:21   But you know, and so I think that maybe that was not quite the right balance to set there.

00:12:27   But as a publisher, you got to be thinking about Facebook. And I think it makes sense

00:12:33   for them to say, "What makes this thing new since what we're really doing is sort of going

00:12:37   back to the days..." All the Verge people who started The Verge worked at Engadget, and

00:12:43   The Verge at the beginning especially felt a lot like Engadget, and although they have

00:12:47   talked over time, and the content has come around recently to being that The Verge is

00:12:51   more than just a tech blog, and they do some other stuff. So, okay, so now you're going

00:12:58   to do a tech blog inside your "was a tech blog and isn't quite a tech blog anymore,"

00:13:03   that seems a little bit weird. And so the Facebook angle is kind of interesting where

00:13:06   it's like, yeah, but it's also a place for us to play, to experiment with what if we

00:13:10   did a product that was much more Facebook focused than the stuff that we, that traditionally

00:13:16   web publishers, if that you can have tradition in web publishing have done. And so I think

00:13:21   that's, I think that's smart. I mean, as somebody who used to be a publishing executive, I guess,

00:13:30   I look at this and think, "Well, yeah, if I was Nielle, if I were the people there,

00:13:34   I would be like, 'Yeah, let's try this Facebook stuff.' Facebook's huge. Why don't we find

00:13:39   some place?" Facebook should probably be part of their strategy overall, and it probably

00:13:44   is, but why not put a stake in the ground and say, "For this site, we're going to really

00:13:48   push Facebook as hard as we can, and everything that Facebook offers, we're going to do, and

00:13:54   we're going to see what it delivers." I think that's smart. I think it's really smart to

00:13:58   take something that is like a new platform from an incredibly powerful source and do

00:14:03   a trial and say, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I mean, a lot of publishers

00:14:08   really back in the prehistory time jumped in and did a lot of work to be on eWorld,

00:14:14   right? It went nowhere. But you gotta try, right? And for Facebook, Facebook's so powerful

00:14:21   that yeah, why not? It's a cool idea. It is funny because a lot of people will criticize

00:14:25   the Verge saying it really is more of a tech blog with aspirations than it is a comprehensive

00:14:35   guide to the culture of now or whatever, right? I mean, there's some critique you can make

00:14:39   about that for a site that's really about everything in the future, they review a lot

00:14:46   of Android phones, but I think their content really has progressed over time. They're much

00:14:51   more wired-like than they used to be, which I think is what they want to do. And in that

00:14:55   sphere having a dedicated place for gadgets is probably not a bad idea.

00:15:00   I mean I wouldn't be surprised if like they really just wanted to focus on

00:15:04   Facebook but they put it on the verge because Facebook system needs it to live

00:15:08   somewhere right like the instant article stuff it's like well it's got to be

00:15:12   somewhere so they've hidden it inside of the verge and now it's like here's the

00:15:17   thing I also wonder if you allow me to put on a tinfoil hat

00:15:21   Do you think there's any money moving around between Facebook and Vox for this? Like this

00:15:25   feels like something that Facebook would be like, "We're gonna help you out with this."

00:15:30   Well, it sounds like they've-- it's entirely possible they made a deal and they've been

00:15:34   working with Facebook on this, like approaching Facebook and saying, "Well, what can we do?

00:15:37   We want to make like the model like Facebook outpost for content. How do we do that?" Whether

00:15:43   there's money changing hands beyond the idea that they're gonna make money because they're

00:15:47   gonna have ads and things inside and harness the Facebook user base, is Facebook gonna

00:15:54   drive traffic there, you know, it's possible, but I bet they, it would not surprise me if

00:15:58   they are working together just because it's a major publisher saying, you know, we want

00:16:02   to create a product that really embraces Facebook, and I think that's great, they should try

00:16:07   it. You put the content on the Verge because the Verge is a big audience, it's not just

00:16:12   because you need to put it somewhere, but it's got a big audience, it's a traditional

00:16:15   web audience, why not channel traffic there? You can sell ads against it. It's probably

00:16:19   initially more able to make money on the web than it is some of the stuff they're doing

00:16:25   on Facebook. So it's like a hedge, I think, in some ways, just to do it that way. But

00:16:31   I think it's interesting. You know, remember the gadget blogs? The challenge with gadget

00:16:38   blogs is so much gadgetry is just life now. And so it remains to be seen the way that

00:16:46   the initial articles on Circuit Breaker put it down, sort of like, there are weird new

00:16:52   places where there are gadgets and a lot of them will stink, but you know, a lot of gadgets

00:16:56   always stunk and today is no different, so why not cover that and maybe cover it without

00:17:02   the weight of the Verge. I think that may be at play here too where it's like, "Are

00:17:06   really going to talk about this stupid thing on the Verge?" And it's like, "Yeah, yeah,

00:17:10   but in a gadget blog context, in a pure--" We used to do that at Macworld. Dan Morin

00:17:14   did a blog for a while called "Gadget Box" and it was the same idea. It was just like,

00:17:18   "This stuff is ridiculous, but in the context of the gadget blog, it's okay." Because the

00:17:22   people who are reading this want to see the ridiculous gadgetry. And it doesn't have to

00:17:26   meet the weight test that maybe a full-on Verge article does. And so that might be a

00:17:30   part of it too.

00:17:31   Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's an interesting move. Paul Miller is back.

00:17:37   Yeah, Future Paul himself, the guy who was off the internet for a year. He's back.

00:17:41   He's back and he's running Circuit Breaker. I'm interested to see how it progresses. I

00:17:48   know that I loved the Gadget Blog style as everybody did, you know, at the time, you

00:17:55   know the heyday of in gadget and gizmodo I wonder if I still love it now because

00:18:01   the trend has definitely moved away right so like there are product

00:18:05   releases and there are company culture type things that that seems to be what's

00:18:10   covered by most of the sites that used to be gadget blogs now so I wonder what's

00:18:14   gonna be like I follow them on Twitter and I follow them on Facebook the circuit

00:18:18   breaker account so I figure I'll find their stuff somewhere we'll see yeah yeah

00:18:24   And Facebook is so powerful.

00:18:25   It's just, I know a lot of,

00:18:28   this is, I say this a lot now,

00:18:30   but I feel like I have to do this,

00:18:31   which is like, I know there are lots of things

00:18:33   that tech nerds roll their eyes at

00:18:35   and think aren't relevant,

00:18:37   that you just have to step outside yourself for a minute

00:18:39   and say, yeah, it's not relevant for you.

00:18:40   Guess what?

00:18:41   It's relevant for so many people who aren't you.

00:18:43   And that's the truth about Facebook,

00:18:46   is Facebook is huge.

00:18:48   Facebook drives massive amounts of traffic.

00:18:49   You could argue that if you're doing online media

00:18:52   and you turn your back on Facebook, you can't succeed. Like seriously, it is incredibly powerful.

00:18:59   And so you ignore it at your peril, right? Even if all of us or many of us might roll our eyes at it.

00:19:06   And you know, that's why I've come around. And that's why I set up the Facebook group for the

00:19:10   incomparable is, you know, there are a lot of people in our audience who do not participate

00:19:15   on Twitter. And I want to reach those people too. And a lot of them are on Facebook. Plus the power

00:19:21   Facebook, the stuff that people are doing interacting with us on Facebook is exposing

00:19:26   what we do to the people they know who don't know about us. So it's one of those things

00:19:31   where it's like, you know, Facebook's not my favorite thing, but I kind of need to be

00:19:36   there as a person who's publishing things on the internet because, you know, even though

00:19:41   it's not for me, it's for a lot of people. So I think we, as nerds, we roll our eyes

00:19:46   at Facebook. That's fine, but you ignore it at your peril.

00:19:50   Yeah, we have a Facebook page, a relay FM Facebook page. We basically just post stuff

00:19:58   to it. We don't really do anything with it. It's not a group. I know that I don't want

00:20:04   to manage somewhere else, which is part of the reason why we don't have a group like

00:20:09   how you do. But I get it. I get why it's important.

00:20:13   Well I didn't want to set up a forum package or something like that, and I'd seen the Flophouse

00:20:19   group is great, like legitimately great community. They just raised, there's too much volume

00:20:25   there, but they raised money. Too much volume is not a bad problem to have, I would say.

00:20:31   They raised a lot of money for charity, and that was inspirational to me. And it's been

00:20:36   fun. It's nice to have a place to go, and Facebook has provided that. And again, I don't

00:20:42   love Facebook, but they did a pretty good job at reaching people who perhaps had no

00:20:46   other place, you know, that I think would probably not go to and register for some online

00:20:51   forum attached to our website. And we have comments on our episode post for a long time

00:20:56   using Discuss and nobody uses them. But there are lots of posting on Facebook, so I guess,

00:21:02   you know, it's good to be there.

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00:23:21   Alright so there is a updated MacBook just came out kind of middle of last week. Just

00:23:29   the new MacBook they added a new color to it. There's a rose gold color now to kind

00:23:34   of flesh out the usual color lines that they have in these products and that's about it

00:23:41   right it had some speed updates but from the visual side no change.

00:23:46   It's speed bump I've got it here I'm gonna write a review of it for six colors it's the

00:23:51   same MacBook we know except faster that the new core the core m5 and there's a

00:23:57   build or m3 and m5 processors I mean it's these these new processors seem

00:24:03   much more capable than last year's models this is so it's a speed bump but

00:24:07   it's like I think it's like a 30% speed bump it is not a it is not one of these

00:24:11   kind of oh it's 10% faster kind of things it's it's it's quite a bit faster

00:24:15   I believe and I think the battery is a little bit larger or I mean the

00:24:21   capacity is a little bit more, so I think it's maybe more efficient. And so they quoted

00:24:25   an extra hour of battery life, I think, as part of it too. I've got the space gray one

00:24:30   here. I definitely am looking forward to using it, although my laptop use is very different

00:24:35   than it was a year ago, right, because of the iPad Pro. And I know that like Serenity,

00:24:38   I think, wrote something on iMore about how, you know, it's weird to get the little laptop

00:24:44   and be like, "I'm not in the market for little laptops anymore," right? And I'm sort of there.

00:24:50   I still have my air and I use it sometimes, but it's not like it used to be where it was

00:24:54   my main thing. So that's interesting to go back to it. I'm getting to revisit the keyboard,

00:25:00   which I haven't used in a year, so how have my feelings changed there? I don't know. I

00:25:06   think one of the fascinating things that I had is that a bunch of people just freaked

00:25:09   out about this, and I think it says more about the writers than it does about the product.

00:25:15   That there was like, there was a piece on Laptop Mag and a piece on Mashable that were

00:25:19   basically like, "This is a joke." One of them, the original headline that they changed was

00:25:24   that "It sucks." And the other one was, "It's the biggest tech letdown of 2016." That one

00:25:30   really got me. I actually kind of went off on that story on Twitter because, boy, we

00:25:36   are really in for a great year if a MacBook speed bump is the biggest tech letdown of

00:25:42   2016. And I heard from some people who were like, "Well, yeah, but they fixed the MacBook

00:25:46   Air, you know, originally it had the one port and all that, and they added the ports and

00:25:50   all that, so why didn't they do that with a MacBook? It's like, check your history.

00:25:53   They fixed the MacBook Air after two and a half years. It was, it was, right? I mean,

00:25:59   it took time to, Apple, Apple very rarely takes a brand new bit of an enclosure and

00:26:08   a year later throws it away and replaces it with a new, a newly redesigned one. And look

00:26:12   at that MacBook case and tell me how you could just sort of shove a port somewhere without

00:26:18   doing--and look at how it's built on the inside too--without doing a complete redesign. You

00:26:23   would have to do a complete redesign of the enclosure and of the way it's laid out on

00:26:26   the inside to do that. And Apple very rarely does that, but I think at the core of it,

00:26:31   the people who were freaking out that it wasn't a--they didn't add a port, right? They didn't

00:26:37   make these changes is these are people who already didn't like the MacBook. They didn't

00:26:42   like it last year. And they had a whole list of reasons why they thought it was a mistake.

00:26:46   And they really expected that Apple would recant in 2016 and say, "You're right. You're

00:26:51   right, sir. Yes, yes, sir. We do need another port there. This was a failure." And Apple

00:26:58   didn't. And so then they got really mad that Apple didn't think that that product was so

00:27:05   desperately in need of change that they needed to invest in completely changing it after

00:27:09   one year on the market. You know, Apple's product cycle for this product is two years.

00:27:15   Also I think it would require for them to kind of abort and make big changes after one

00:27:19   year, it would require Apple to really think like, "Our entire conception of this product

00:27:23   was a mistake. We need to go back on it." And I don't believe they think it is. I mean,

00:27:26   I think they might decide that when it comes time for them to revise it, maybe it was a

00:27:32   little bit too forward, maybe two ports would be something worth prioritizing based on the

00:27:38   feedback. But that is very different from saying, "Oh geez, we just, you know, we give

00:27:48   up, you're right, we made a horrible mistake." I just don't believe that Apple feels that

00:27:52   way. Apple's like, "No, this MacBook is for this. It looks like this, it does this, and

00:27:56   if you want a different laptop, buy one of our other laptops that we make." So I thought

00:28:01   it was an interesting reaction from people who wish the MacBook was something that it's

00:28:06   not and are mad that their wish didn't come true. But I don't think it really says anything.

00:28:11   Anybody who has been paying attention to how Apple handles this stuff and Apple's approach

00:28:14   to these kind of products cannot be surprised. The only thing that surprised me was that

00:28:19   I was hoping the USB-C port would be a Thunderbolt 3 port, but apparently this chipset from Intel

00:28:27   doesn't support it and it would therefore, if they wanted to add it, I think it would

00:28:30   have required, again, a revamp of what's on the inside, like a big revamp of what's on

00:28:35   the inside, and I don't think that's in the cards. So, because again, I think that you

00:28:41   wait for the second year, you know, for year three essentially, for the second generation

00:28:46   with some real changes to the inside. I don't know. I was surprised. Were you surprised

00:28:51   by the reaction? I was a little surprised that people were so kind of freaked out by

00:28:56   it, some people, that it was just a speed bump.

00:28:59   So I think a lot of the negative articles have come from a delusion of self.

00:29:05   Yep.

00:29:07   Like, basically a lot of the people that were really upset with the fact that it only had

00:29:12   one port were people that thought that it was going to have two ports because they hated

00:29:16   it the first time around, right?

00:29:18   Where they're like, "This is not the way a Mac should be, so they're obviously going

00:29:23   to change it because I don't like it.

00:29:24   They're obviously going to change it."

00:29:25   And I'm not trying to say that people are wrong for saying this because I was expecting

00:29:31   in my head the next time Apple updates this laptop there will be another port. Now when

00:29:38   it came out last week with only one I wasn't surprised because that came out faster than

00:29:42   I thought it was going to. But I did think it would be nice if they had another one they'll

00:29:48   probably do that. So I'm not surprised that that they didn't do it but I'm kind

00:29:55   of also a little bit surprised. So basically my feeling is I wish they

00:29:59   would have done it. It would have been great if they did. The fact that they've

00:30:03   updated it and didn't do it it's like huh but it's also like okay like this

00:30:08   makes sense when you look at the history of the products. I think it would

00:30:11   have been really great if they would have done it. I wish they would have done

00:30:14   it because it was the biggest criticism and the criticism is founded right you

00:30:19   know the fact that you can't plug something in and charge this

00:30:22   machine at the same time without a ton of adapters and I think it was MKBHD's

00:30:27   video he was like for a device that's meant to be light and portable the fact

00:30:33   that you need to carry around adapters kind of like goes against it right and

00:30:38   he was like he was one of the people's like this is definitely gonna have two

00:30:42   USB-C ports when they when they do it up again and in his video he was like well

00:30:46   I was wrong I guess but like he says as like and I think that you said is look

00:30:50   this machine this machine it's like it's a good machine it's just that is the

00:30:54   issue with it if you think it's an issue right that it only has one USB-C port

00:30:59   and they probably will change it in the past but now like if you were thinking

00:31:02   about getting one now you should definitely get one because it's faster

00:31:06   and more capable yeah like if you were on the fence now you should get off the

00:31:10   because it's a better machine. Unless you're somebody, I mean I would argue

00:31:13   that what Apple's saying, and this is this is a very, I feel like this is a, I'm

00:31:19   trying to find the right way to describe it, Apple has a vision for what this

00:31:22   product is and who it's for, and it's a very, if a giant corporation can have a

00:31:27   personal vision, it just it feels very very very personal that this is this is

00:31:33   this product, this is our like statement about what this kind of laptop should be,

00:31:38   And it's not every laptop, it's not every laptop they sell, but this one is this, and

00:31:42   it's for this, and it is made to be what it is.

00:31:46   And so when people criticize it because it's what it is, what it was intended to be, and

00:31:51   not what they want it to be, okay, fair enough, there are certainly points to criticize about

00:31:55   it, but at the same time you have to recognize it is part of a product line, and it is meant

00:32:00   to be kind of on the edge and pushing forward, and not necessarily a mainstream product,

00:32:06   at the same time, not to go back to the whole tech nerds

00:32:09   need to think bigger kind of aspect,

00:32:13   but like if you're somebody who has to travel with it

00:32:16   with a whole bunch of dongles,

00:32:18   I think the argument might be it's not for you.

00:32:21   Like if you really need to bring a whole bunch of stuff

00:32:25   because you've got a lot of external devices on that,

00:32:27   maybe this is in the product for you.

00:32:28   I think that the dissonance here,

00:32:30   the cognitive dissonance that happens with this product is

00:32:32   it looks so cool that people want it.

00:32:35   I want it. But it's not for them. It's not for me. And so they're mad. This is why I

00:32:39   don't have one, because it's not the machine for me. I certainly hope that the new MacBook

00:32:43   Pros, when they come, which are rumored to be thinner and lighter, I hope that a lot

00:32:51   of the angst about the MacBook is muted by the MacBook Pros. Like, now here's another

00:33:00   product that's got more features that also is a product you want, and now you can see

00:33:06   this MacBook is—if you look at this and you're like, "How am I supposed to use that?"

00:33:11   the answer is don't. It's not a crime for a company to say, "This product isn't for

00:33:17   you." It's not a crime that—not every product Apple makes—we said this last year—is

00:33:21   meant for everybody. It doesn't mean it couldn't be better. I've certainly criticized, especially

00:33:26   the keyboard, I don't really like it. I get why they did it, but it's not my favorite.

00:33:29   people really like it. You know, the port thing is an issue if you use it in that way,

00:33:36   where you need to have all those ports. But if you're somebody who just wants long battery

00:33:39   life and plugs it in, you know, once a day at the end of the day and doesn't really use

00:33:43   any other devices, then maybe, you know, then it doesn't matter at all. Then it's totally

00:33:49   irrelevant that there are no ports beyond the one that you use to charge it.

00:33:53   I think a lot of people that are upset about this machine are MacBook Air users, right,

00:33:59   they're looking at the MacBook and they're like, "That is what I want my Air to be, but

00:34:06   you've made something more difficult." Right? Like, "You've given me more and taken it away."

00:34:10   And I think that's why people want it, but--

00:34:13   - I'm one of them. Like, I totally get it. I feel--part of this too, and it's interesting,

00:34:17   we talked about this with the split release of like the iPad Pro models and how it feels

00:34:22   weird 'cause they're sort of like, one shoe has dropped, but then you're waiting for the

00:34:27   other shoe to drop. I feel like that with the MacBook Pro. I think this will make a

00:34:31   lot more sense when we leave this transitional period and there's a new MacBook Pro line

00:34:35   that presumably is a lot more like the MacBook Air, but has more features than the MacBook

00:34:41   does. I feel like I would like to believe that this summer we'll be in a place with

00:34:46   Apple's laptops where the MacBook Air's necessity will be gone because there'll be the MacBook

00:34:52   and the MacBook Pro and between them you've got your options. But right now it's sort

00:34:56   of like a MacBook Air user, you know, the MacBook has the retina screen and it's even

00:35:01   thinner and lighter but you're also giving stuff up if you go to it. And the MacBook

00:35:04   Pro right now, as an 11-inch Air user especially, I look at the MacBook Pros and I'm like,

00:35:10   "No, it's too big. No, forget it." And so where do you go? And the answer is sort of

00:35:14   nowhere. You sit on your hands and you complain that the MacBook isn't for you.

00:35:17   Because like if I was using an 11-inch Air every day knowing that the MacBook existed,

00:35:22   I would be very upset because you compare those two machines side by side and the Air

00:35:27   is so ugly to me. Like that huge silver bezel. I know, I was looking at it last night and

00:35:33   I was like, "ahh..." It's not a good looking machine anymore, it did not age well. And

00:35:37   yet it's, and yet my, the new, the new, um, the new processor, it's, it is, I actually

00:35:42   got a faster single processor score from the new MacBook than I did for my i7 Air. Oh wow.

00:35:51   just made it a little bit more interesting to me anyway.

00:35:54   Yeah, the Multi is still a little bit faster on the i7 Air, but it's catching up. I mean,

00:36:00   it's sort of sad in a sense, what we're really saying is like, "Good news everybody, the

00:36:04   MacBook has finally caught up to the MacBook Air of 2014." But that's sort of--

00:36:09   But those Airs were like marvels, right? The speed in those things, which, you know, it

00:36:14   was--so many people have called them the best Macs that Apple ever made, for very good reason.

00:36:20   I mean the i7 11 inch air, it's so small and it's so powerful, it's kind of amazing.

00:36:27   I have one of those and no Mac has ever made me happier than that machine did.

00:36:31   I was able to do so much with it and it was so tiny, I just love that thing.

00:36:35   But let's park this, I want to talk about the MacBook Pro.

00:36:38   Because I think we were all expecting...

00:36:41   Is it in the parking lot?

00:36:42   It's in the parking lot, we're putting the MacBook in the parking lot now.

00:36:45   Okay, don't run over it.

00:36:46   And then we're getting the electric version...

00:36:48   Orange cones are out.

00:36:50   just unplugging the MacBook Pro from the charging station and we're driving

00:36:54   anyway we're really pushing this metaphor I think we're all expecting

00:36:58   MacBook Pros to come out between that event and WWDC and now when I look at

00:37:03   this I see that's less likely now because why would you have two separate

00:37:08   quiet laptop announcements I feel like it's a bit much so now I look at it and

00:37:13   And I think to myself, I expect the MacBook Pros to be really forward thinking again,

00:37:21   right?

00:37:22   They're gonna make that big jump, they're gonna be all in beautiful colors, I think.

00:37:26   There's your Thunderbolt 3 and perhaps an external Retina display to go along with it?

00:37:31   And like impossibly thin and light.

00:37:33   I think they're gonna do what they did with the Mac Pro.

00:37:35   They're gonna do that like video on stage and feel shit like, "Innovate anymore my ass!"

00:37:40   I think they're gonna do that.

00:37:41   Because that's the audience for it.

00:37:43   - It's a good audience, right?

00:37:44   100% of iOS developers use Macs, right?

00:37:47   'Cause they have to use Xcode.

00:37:48   - And people will lose their minds

00:37:50   when this thing is like as thin as a MacBook Air, right?

00:37:52   That's what everyone wants.

00:37:53   Imagine if it was that.

00:37:54   Imagine how crazy they would go.

00:37:56   - And will drive an external retina display.

00:37:58   - Yep.

00:38:00   - The Thunderbolt 3 display or whatever it is

00:38:02   that it will drive.

00:38:03   That would be, wouldn't that be great?

00:38:05   That would be a great mic drop

00:38:06   if they came out and said, "Hey, the Mac,

00:38:07   "let's talk about the Mac.

00:38:08   "You all use Macs.

00:38:09   what if we have look at these new MacBook Pros 13 and 15 and they're

00:38:13   thinner and lighter and they really remind you of a MacBook Air don't they

00:38:16   but look they don't stand it these are pros they don't stand on ports we got

00:38:19   USB you know standard USB we've got USB 3 but those aren't even just USB C

00:38:24   those are those are Thunderbolt 3 and they have this incredible number and and

00:38:29   look we made an external monitor

00:38:31   whoo everybody goes nuts for the external retina display that's driven by

00:38:35   it but guess what we know macbook probe or mac pro people would want one drive

00:38:39   that monitor too. So here's a new Mac Pro and it's got Thunderbolt 3 and it does all

00:38:43   this, woo, everybody goes crazy. Like, I could see that. I can see that happening.

00:38:46   And really both of these machines will be ready to run macOS.

00:38:50   Yes, macOS.

00:38:52   Jason explodes into a ball of flame.

00:38:54   Yeah, exactly. So I could see it, I could see that happening. I mean, I think they could

00:39:00   release it, but if these really are, Mac Pro is a big product. If they've really redesigned

00:39:05   it entirely, why would you not use the stage to do it and that would be a perfect audience

00:39:08   to do it, especially if you have some other stuff like a retina display and a Mac Pro

00:39:13   behind it.

00:39:14   >> MATT: I just think if they have done what we expect them to have done, which really

00:39:18   is overdue, which is completely redesign the MacBook Pro, you should be doing that in front

00:39:24   of an audience, and there's no better audience than a WWDC audience who are going to be packing

00:39:28   out that Bill Graham auditorium.

00:39:31   >> CHIPPS: Civic auditorium, yeah.

00:39:33   >> MATT.

00:39:34   Because they'll probably get the majority of attendees, right?

00:39:38   there won't be overflow rooms. Or there might be, but there won't be as much of a need.

00:39:42   Because isn't the capacity larger than the capacity they use typically?

00:39:46   I think the base capacity of the Civic Auditorium is 8,000, so it's larger.

00:39:51   And they have what, 5,000 developers, right?

00:39:53   Yeah, I'm not sure overflow even would make sense, because it's like a mile away. You

00:39:58   can't like... It would be... I mean, maybe they'll open overflow in Moscone West for

00:40:03   people who don't want to walk over there and wait in line or something, but no, it'll be

00:40:07   a big audience, and it would be a good time for them to do it. My only hesitation there

00:40:11   is that it's going to be a packed keynote anyway, right, because they're going to talk

00:40:14   about presumably new Mac OS, iOS, watchOS.

00:40:17   - Yeah, but they won't have the music thing, right? So you'll have all that space taken

00:40:23   up, like it will be out. There's not going to be something, I don't think there's going

00:40:26   to be something like Apple Music on stage this time.

00:40:29   - Right, so you slot that in there for that, and instead you do a Mac update.

00:40:33   - And genuinely, I think you need 10 minutes tops

00:40:36   for this Mac part.

00:40:37   - And we should say, sometimes people are informed

00:40:40   by like sources and stuff about, and they can't say so,

00:40:44   and they seem very assertive that things are gonna happen,

00:40:46   and it's actually because they've got sources.

00:40:49   I can say with 100% accuracy that I have no sources

00:40:53   telling me these things.

00:40:54   I am just speculating, and I feel like the first test

00:40:57   that it passes is, is it plausible that they could do this?

00:41:00   And I think the answer is yes.

00:41:01   Will they do it?

00:41:02   knows but it certainly seems plausible that this would be the way to announce a MacBook

00:41:07   Pro and maybe some other Mac stuff.

00:41:08   Geoff - Yep, we're purely going for upgrade was right in this scenario. But this is based

00:41:15   on our viewing and understanding of the way that keynotes have run in the past. I think

00:41:21   this seems very plausible. Let's talk about something that's less implausible but before

00:41:27   we do that, let's talk about FreshBooks. One of my very favorite companies FreshBooks,

00:41:33   not just because they support the show, I love that they support the show, thank you

00:41:36   FreshBooks for doing that. I also love that they make my life easier. FreshBooks' mission

00:41:43   is to help small business owners save time and stress. And they do this primarily with

00:41:49   their pain-free invoicing and I've got to say they help me all the time. It's super

00:41:53   simple super fast to set up invoices. They have intuitive tools. It takes just 30 seconds

00:41:59   to create and send an invoice. You can add your company logo for that extra touch. And

00:42:03   they give you tons of ways to pay, right? So you can integrate with a bunch of third

00:42:06   party payment services. Freshbooks have their own payment service as well. And if you are

00:42:12   a Freshbooks customer, you will get paid five days faster on average. So that's one of the

00:42:16   things that I really love. I love that it's really easy for people to pay us. That is

00:42:20   just one thing I don't have to worry about. The other thing is they have just great tools

00:42:25   that allow me to keep track of everything without needing to bug people. So I can see

00:42:30   if somebody never opened an invoice, which means they probably, I'm not going to get

00:42:33   the money am I, if they've never opened it, so maybe they just missed it. Or I can see

00:42:37   for example before I go and ask someone or go check up with somebody, I can go in and

00:42:42   take a look at the history of the invoice and see what action has been taken. So for

00:42:47   For example I see that they went in 2 days ago and printed it, well the cheque is probably

00:42:50   on the way at that point so I don't need to bug them.

00:42:53   But one of the great things about Freshbooks is you can also automate that, you can set

00:42:57   up automatic late payment reminders as well so it's even less of a thing that you need

00:43:02   to worry about.

00:43:03   Freshbooks has tons of third party integrations, they can do time tracking as well and also

00:43:07   expense tracking so no more boxes full of receipts, you can automatically import your

00:43:11   bank transactions if you're in the US and their revamped mobile app also let you take

00:43:16   photos of receipts and you can put them in FreshBooks to organise for later.

00:43:20   Getting started with FreshBooks is really simple, you don't have to be a numbers person.

00:43:24   If you're using any type of invoicing software or if you're not and you're using pages or

00:43:28   something like that to do your invoices, trust me, try this out. I have sent over 500 invoices

00:43:34   with FreshBooks now for Relay FM and I wouldn't want to do it any other way. They're offering

00:43:40   a 30 day free trial for listeners of this show. So that's 30 days of unrestricted use,

00:43:45   no credit cards required, so you can just go and check it out for yourself. But go to

00:43:49   freshbooks.com/upgrade and please enter 'upgrade' in the 'how you heard about us' section so

00:43:53   FreshBooks knows that you came from this show. Thank you to FreshBooks for their support

00:43:58   of Upgrade and for making my life a little bit easier.

00:44:02   Alright so I listened to the Secret Subscriber podcast, Six Colors, which is weirdly one

00:44:09   of my favorite podcasts. And I say weirdly –

00:44:11   It should be weird.

00:44:12   I say weirdly because there's just so many things that are very different about it, right?

00:44:17   Like one is I do a tech podcast with you and I listen to Clockwise, which you and Dan are

00:44:21   both on. And really, all that the show is, is kind of just like your meeting, I guess?

00:44:28   Like it's a funny show in that regard, but I just really love it. I think it's just because

00:44:33   I like you and Dan so much.

00:44:35   I think I like the tone of it because it does feel,

00:44:37   it does feel a little bit different.

00:44:39   Like the pressure's off, it's roughly a half an hour,

00:44:42   but we don't really keep to that.

00:44:44   But we try to keep it short.

00:44:45   So it's usually a half an hour, maybe a little bit less.

00:44:47   And it is just like, yeah, what are we working on?

00:44:50   What are we thinking about what's going on?

00:44:52   It's a, yeah, so I encourage you.

00:44:53   It's one of the many things that you get

00:44:56   if you are a Six Color subscriber,

00:44:58   you get access to that podcast

00:44:59   plus a fun newsletter that we do.

00:45:01   And yeah. - All the great perks.

00:45:03   - Yeah, and maybe more coming, who knows?

00:45:05   But I think those are fun little bonuses for people

00:45:09   who subscribe to Six Colors.

00:45:11   Yeah, so we talked about the Apple Car last week.

00:45:13   - Yep, you did.

00:45:14   And this was prompted by the fact that both of you

00:45:17   had written stories about this.

00:45:20   - Yeah, and that world in the last couple of weeks

00:45:22   about the Apple Car, yeah.

00:45:23   - So I wanted to kind of just throw some thoughts in

00:45:28   about the Apple Car.

00:45:30   My first thought is that all of this is ridiculous.

00:45:35   to be talking about right now.

00:45:36   - We got an Ask Upgrade question that was like literally,

00:45:39   hey, Myke doesn't drive, doesn't have a car.

00:45:41   What is Myke, can Myke gin up any enthusiasm

00:45:44   about the Apple car?

00:45:45   And I think the answer is no, right?

00:45:47   'Cause it's not only that, but it's also very far away

00:45:49   and kind of hard to picture, right?

00:45:51   - Yeah, so it was Gareth who asked

00:45:53   if I would get a driving license.

00:45:54   And I mean, I'm gonna get a driving license

00:45:58   probably before the Apple car comes out anyway.

00:46:00   Like when me and Nadina start a family,

00:46:03   like I'm just gonna need to have a car.

00:46:05   So at that point, like it would just make sense

00:46:08   to have a car, so I'll just get a car.

00:46:11   - Well, James Thompson and his wife have a car,

00:46:14   but he doesn't drive, so she does all the driving,

00:46:17   but they do have a car.

00:46:18   - Yeah, so it's like, you know, eventually I'll do it.

00:46:20   It's just where I live in London

00:46:22   and with the way that my life is, I just don't need one.

00:46:26   So I don't have a driving license,

00:46:28   so I've just never gotten around to it.

00:46:30   But anyway, I will have one before then.

00:46:33   I don't know if I would get a license just because Apple have a car because this is the other part of it

00:46:37   like one of the really weird things is I buy Apple products because I like Apple products and because I also

00:46:43   have

00:46:46   Like a big part of my job based on what they do

00:46:50   So I have as many Apple products as I can buy I try and get all the new stuff so I can talk about it intelligently

00:46:57   Don't think I necessarily want to buy a car though

00:47:01   Right like a car is gonna be really expensive and it would be weird

00:47:05   Like what do I have to do like spend like 60 grand so I can talk about the car and upgrade like that's just one thing

00:47:13   Just as doing what I do why this is a weird thing for me

00:47:16   But like we can park that because no one really cares about that

00:47:19   But we can we literally park that car can park that in the parking lot

00:47:24   Yeah, Macbook is sitting right there. Don't run it over watch out for your parallel park against the Mac book

00:47:28   But this whole thing about Apple potentially building a car makes me feel really uneasy

00:47:33   I don't know if this is the right thing for Apple to do

00:47:37   It's a very strange product

00:47:41   Market is it into it was way easier to jump to phones than it was to jump to cars

00:47:46   And I know that you you guys were saying

00:47:48   That cars are becoming more like technology products as they're being charged, you know power by batteries and full of like a convergence

00:47:56   I feel like that's happening where if you look 10 or 15 years out you can see that it's

00:47:59   just as important to be good at software and sensors and batteries and power management

00:48:05   as it is to be good at drive trains and tires.

00:48:08   >> Yeah, but it's very, one of the things that I keep hinging on is it's very unlikely

00:48:13   for a pocket computer to kill you and this is the real problem of cars. They can kill

00:48:20   you and they can kill other people. And I think, you know, I wonder if there's going

00:48:27   to be a backlash against this car advancement at certain points, like the point where you

00:48:32   have to reboot your car while you're going down the highway. That's going to start upsetting

00:48:37   people. And things like this are going to happen. The more it trends towards software,

00:48:41   the more it's going to trend towards there being issues, right?

00:48:43   Right. I mean, the standard has to be higher, certainly, right? You need aspects of it.

00:48:49   my understanding is that this is not outside the realm, I mean, this is what people do

00:48:53   now is that you have levels, layers of the software that have to be rock solid because

00:48:59   they are working in real time to make your car function. And then there's like the interface

00:49:03   stuff that if the app quits, it's fine. But it is a challenge, I mean, there are so many

00:49:08   people--

00:49:09   Geoff - There's still just people making it, you know, and I know that people make drive

00:49:12   trains but there's a lot of physics in that.

00:49:13   Myke - People make the software that's in cars today, cars today have software too.

00:49:16   Geoff - I know.

00:49:17   Myke - People make that stuff too, right?

00:49:18   I think the software that we're moving towards is more embedded than it is now, because at

00:49:24   its fundamental point, there's still things moving and science happening to make the car

00:49:31   move.

00:49:32   Sure.

00:49:33   Right?

00:49:34   There's science happening.

00:49:35   Anyway, I'm starting to get into something that I'm not smart enough in, so I'm going

00:49:41   to back out of this conversation now.

00:49:42   This one part.

00:49:43   I think it's hard to have, it's hard to picture it because it's such a leap for them. I have

00:49:51   a hard time connecting the dots, honestly. This is why I start with, I understand why

00:49:55   they're investigating it. If I were at Apple and I knew I had maybe almost $200 billion

00:50:01   in cash, a huge amount of cash and a lot of money coming in, but want to explore new areas

00:50:08   because we know that tech companies that don't explore new areas lose those new areas to

00:50:12   new companies and they and they start to die. So you want to place your bets and

00:50:16   the car thing is really interesting and if you you know if you're Apple you've

00:50:19   probably got a pretty good view of Apple's skills. You're like you know

00:50:24   we're awesome right so why couldn't we do that and I and I see that like you I

00:50:29   see the that initial thought of here's where we could go

00:50:33   the car is interesting cars in the future are going to use things that

00:50:36   we're good at the car we have we have very little confidence in the existing

00:50:41   car makers, we see what Tesla's doing and we think, "Well, wait a second. It's much

00:50:45   more likely that Tesla in the long run is going to succeed. Maybe this isn't true, but

00:50:48   I'm just trying to get in the mindset here." And we could do that too, and we could eat

00:50:53   the lunch of these old car companies that have to be busy selling cars today instead

00:50:57   of trying to picture what the car is going to be in 10 years. I totally see that, and

00:51:01   I think even spending money to make that bet is probably right. And you look at what Tesla

00:51:05   has done. Like, Tesla has its charger network, Tesla has its dealer network, or it's not

00:51:10   dealers. It's like it's they're like Apple stores. It's got its retail network. This

00:51:14   is nothing that Apple could not do to build all this stuff out. It absolutely could. It

00:51:19   just would require a sustained effort at a large scale along the lines of what they did

00:51:23   rolling out retail and have this huge hardware effort going on where they're going to, I

00:51:28   guess, build cars eventually. Like, I can see how you would do it and how that you can

00:51:34   imagine getting to the point where it's a thing. And then I have like the cloud with

00:51:40   a question mark, where it's like, then what happens? Like, how do we get to the end, and

00:51:45   what is that end game? And that's where I have a hard time seeing it. And maybe that's

00:51:49   just because I'm not a car guy, and because I am not spending all my days with a bunch

00:51:55   of brilliant people at Apple talking about what this product is going to be, where I

00:51:58   might get it. For me, it's like, yeah, I can sort of see why you would do it, but I'm having

00:52:02   a hard time connecting the dots.

00:52:04   Like the conversation about the money, spending the money is pointless because they have the

00:52:10   money. There's no amount of money that they don't have. It doesn't matter. It just doesn't

00:52:16   matter because...

00:52:17   They could probably do a space probe if they wanted to.

00:52:20   Anything because nobody has more money than them, right? Like it's just... They could

00:52:25   spend 40 billion and next quarter they're fine again. The money conversation, there's

00:52:30   There's just no point in even having it because normal rules do not apply to this company.

00:52:36   Because they get way more money in than they can ever spend.

00:52:40   It's just a fact.

00:52:41   I guess what I'm saying is that that's why I get the idea that, look, if you think there's

00:52:45   an opportunity in the car, then you can do it.

00:52:49   Like if you're Apple, you can just do it.

00:52:51   Or even if you just want to spend some money, like you do, you know, we just like, we've

00:52:54   got too much money, you might as well spend it on something.

00:52:57   Let's build a car.

00:52:59   The reason we're talking about this is not just that Dan and I wrote about it, but because

00:53:02   there were two pieces.

00:53:03   Motor Trend did a big thing where they did a mock-up of what they thought the Apple car

00:53:06   was like, which deals with all the same issues that any mock-up of an imaginary product does,

00:53:11   which it's based on today and not based on the future, and so it's a remix of existing

00:53:14   stuff instead of a new product, and that's why there's an Apple menu in the upper left-hand

00:53:18   corner of the windshield.

00:53:19   - But they just wouldn't build a car that looked like this, because it looks ridiculous.

00:53:23   - No, no, it's just like the iPhone mock-ups that look like an iPod with a click wheel.

00:53:28   just it's it is that's it's one designer I don't wanna I don't wanna run down the designer

00:53:33   because the designer seems to be a very talented person but this was a job to do a concept

00:53:37   for a for a website and you know and not build a car in the real world over the course of

00:53:42   five years and so it shows because that's just that's just how it is also Mac rumors

00:53:47   had a story that I saw because Marco Arment linked to it and said what Germans are involved

00:53:52   in the Apple car now I'm interested which made me laugh but there is this this rumor

00:53:56   that Apple has got a car lab in Berlin now, and that they have actually recruited a bunch

00:54:01   of people who are sort of unhappy with the stodginess of the German car world, and they

00:54:07   want to do awesome new stuff, and that Apple has sort of swept them up and is putting them

00:54:12   at work in an Apple lab in Germany, which I thought was interesting. And those stories

00:54:17   made me think, "Okay, well, let's talk about the Apple car again," basically. But it's

00:54:21   weird, and the reason I find it fun to think about it and talk about it is mostly because

00:54:25   I don't understand it and I'm trying to figure out what it means. And that is an interesting

00:54:32   place to be and it's kind of a fun place to be in a way, but it's weird.

00:54:37   So, I bet comparisons to Tesla in this argument don't work for me because, you know, it feels

00:54:44   like a lot of like, "Sure, Apple could do it because Tesla does it." But this is more

00:54:49   important to Tesla because this is all they do.

00:54:51   That's true.

00:54:52   Like, would Apple build supercharging stations across the US?

00:54:57   Probably not, because they're also going to have this product in other countries.

00:55:03   So do they have to then build the infrastructure for one country?

00:55:05   Why not?

00:55:06   Tesla has done that too.

00:55:07   Yeah, but I feel like Apple would take their usual stance of "we're so popular, people

00:55:12   will build the infrastructure because of us."

00:55:15   That's possible, although I think we're going to get there.

00:55:16   There's a question about the Tesla superchargers too, is what happens when there are four different

00:55:21   electric cars on the market from four different companies, all of which require a fast charging

00:55:25   system. Are there going to be different fast charging systems everywhere, or at some point

00:55:29   is it all going to kind of coalesce down into a single fast charging standard, maybe with

00:55:34   adapters?

00:55:35   I feel like if you're Apple, you do a deal with Tesla to just use their superchargers

00:55:38   because...

00:55:39   It's possible.

00:55:40   Like, why would you build your own infrastructure? Like, at a certain point, there's not enough

00:55:43   space on the side of the roads.

00:55:45   I like... I actually think one of the strongest arguments against the Apple car is that what

00:55:49   you just said about this is what Tesla does. This is Apple adding a whole other

00:55:53   wing and if they kind of run it as its own thing and it's walled off

00:55:58   from the rest of the company I guess that's one thing but of course you want

00:56:01   to take advantage of the talent at Apple and then are you draining the talent or

00:56:06   distracting Apple from all of its other products because they have these

00:56:10   people who are excited to work on the new toy. I have wondered if the way that

00:56:14   you may answer a lot of these questions is that Apple creates a spin-off company.

00:56:18   company in some regard that does some of this stuff.

00:56:22   - Even if it's just a wholly owned subsidiary that does it, but then I think what you lose

00:56:27   is the connection to Apple. You know, okay, so the other thing--

00:56:31   - That could be good and bad, right? - Yeah. The other thing that's at play here

00:56:35   that I don't want to get into too much is that one of the reasons this is happening

00:56:39   is this motivation for growth, that Wall Street demands growth. And I think it's a danger

00:56:44   for a lot of public companies is they lose focus on their key products because they can't

00:56:50   just focus on how great they are. Like the iPhone throws off all this money, huge profits,

00:56:55   but instead of making, you know, and they are working to make it better. It's not a

00:57:00   direct instead, I shouldn't say that, but they lose some focus looking at other areas

00:57:05   because they need to be worried about growth and not just sustaining their incredible business

00:57:10   that they've got. But that's just the name of the game.

00:57:13   if you make things power by electronics that bleep, the next big market is vehicles.

00:57:19   - I guess. - Where else is it? Like VR, but okay. Like VR is way more software than hardware.

00:57:27   - Yeah, and I'm sure Apple's investigating that one too, right? But yeah, the cars,

00:57:31   that's what I've been saying is I see why you look at the cars and are like, "Yeah,

00:57:37   we probably should do that," right? Software, sensors, it's like, as Jeff Williams said,

00:57:41   the ultimate mobile device, there are skills that Apple has that fit into the car thing.

00:57:45   And if Tesla can do it, I mean, this is the thing is if Elon Musk can take his money

00:57:50   and do it with Tesla, it's like Apple's got way more money than that. They could totally build

00:57:54   that. But do they have the vision? Do they have the leadership? And is it going to be a distraction

00:57:58   from their other products? And I think that's the real mystery here. - The vision and leadership

00:58:03   thing is exactly the other part of it. It's like, okay, you have the money, but do you really care?

00:58:09   - Yeah.

00:58:10   - Right, like I get the sense that Elon Musk cares

00:58:12   a whole lot about space and about electric cars, right?

00:58:14   I get that sense.

00:58:15   It's like, what is this at Apple?

00:58:18   Do they have that?

00:58:19   Do they care?

00:58:19   Are they gonna commit everything they possibly can to this?

00:58:22   I hope they can.

00:58:23   That's the only way to do this right.

00:58:24   But, you know, is this an end round

00:58:26   or an end run around the car companies

00:58:30   where they just can't move fast enough

00:58:32   for these and these tech companies can eat their lunch?

00:58:36   It may be, maybe so.

00:58:38   I mean, I wouldn't put it past them.

00:58:40   The car companies have never been perceived

00:58:43   as being particularly cutting edge,

00:58:45   or at least not in our lifetimes.

00:58:47   And I know they're trying, but they're the incumbents.

00:58:50   It's very hard as an incumbent to throw away everything

00:58:53   and start from scratch.

00:58:55   And so you end up managing things for, you know,

00:58:58   your existing products and your existing markets.

00:59:01   And it becomes very hard to have a sustained effort

00:59:03   to do something dramatically new.

00:59:05   And a new, and somebody like Apple

00:59:07   that has zero car sales right now doesn't have to do that and Tesla started there too.

00:59:11   So there are a lot of advantages to not being a car company to make a future car. But you

00:59:17   know they also don't know anything about the car market so they have to learn that stuff.

00:59:21   I don't know. I don't want to talk about it more than maybe we've already done but it's

00:59:25   just it's out there and it's weird and there are continued to be stories about it and who

00:59:29   knows I think it's I think it's going to be you know four years before we see something

00:59:34   if that so yeah there's just one one more point i wanted to make right what if the apple car will

00:59:40   be to cars as the apple tv is to tvs like we spoke for years about the tv set that apple was definitely

00:59:47   making no we didn't gee monster did some people did but like it was it was assumed in rumors in

00:59:53   the same way right that apple were going to be making a tv set and a lot of the objections that

01:00:00   we had to Apple making a TV set are the same objections that people have for making a car.

01:00:07   Retail stores won't be able to handle it, prices are too high for quality, and does

01:00:11   Apple really want to get into this business? It's the exact same arguments, and I just

01:00:15   wonder if it might not be an entire car that they do. I don't know.

01:00:21   I think they want to make an entire car, but I do wonder...

01:00:24   I think they also wanted to make an entire TV, though, as well. I believe that they did.

01:00:28   I don't know. It never made sense in the way that they make it.

01:00:32   Making a car doesn't make sense either.

01:00:34   No, I think it does to a certain degree, but I would say that, you know, it's...

01:00:42   I think it's possible that one of the end games here is not that Apple makes an Apple branded car,

01:00:48   car, but that Apple ends up being the source of, you know, of either being the source of

01:00:57   something that's used in a lot of other cars or that Apple ends up having a partner. But

01:01:02   at the same time, Apple doesn't work well with others. So every time I try to hedge

01:01:06   this and say, "Well, maybe the endgame isn't that Apple makes a car," I then get to the

01:01:10   point where I'm like, "Really? Is Apple going to work with somebody else?" I kind of can't

01:01:14   see that either. So yeah, I think I honestly think one of the biggest things that stands

01:01:19   between us and the release of an Apple car is that our perception of Apple and what it

01:01:24   is and what it can do has to change. And fortunately there are like four or five years probably

01:01:28   before any car like this would come to market where they have a chance to lay the groundwork

01:01:33   for that because it will require a lot of groundwork being laid. And the difference

01:01:38   between Apple and Tesla is that everybody is going to be going nuts if there's an Apple

01:01:42   car and Tesla was able to start small with a very small run and learn as they

01:01:47   went and I feel like the impetus on Apple like Apple they may not do this

01:01:52   but I think what people are going to want from Apple the expectation is that

01:01:56   Apple is going to be able to sell a car right away at volume and it's not going

01:02:00   to happen

01:02:00   it seems impossible to happen and even Tesla you know is struggling with the

01:02:04   new model 3 to actually you know really ramp up the volume and it's taken them

01:02:09   several years and several models to get there and I don't think it's likely that

01:02:15   Apple is going to be able to just roll a brand new Apple car off the assembly

01:02:18   line in 2020 first thing and make you know a million of them right I just it

01:02:24   seems unlikely to me and I think that's what people will demand because it's

01:02:27   Apple so I don't know how they I don't know how they navigate that hmm

01:02:33   what is Steve Jobs say 10% of the phone market yeah that was all they wanted you

01:02:38   Yeah, well, I think that's the way you have to do it, is to say, "Look, I know people

01:02:42   are really excited about this, but this is going to be only in the US and only, you know,

01:02:48   and it's going to be really expensive and it's going to be only in the certain areas

01:02:52   that it's even going to be available because in reality that's all they're going to be

01:02:57   able to make at first." And then people howl at the price and all that and say, "It's a

01:03:01   failure. Oh." I mean, it may follow that same pattern. Who knows?

01:03:05   Okay it's that time again. It is Ask Upgrade time. This week's Ask Upgrade is brought to you by

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01:05:05   Ask Upgrade.

01:05:06   Whoo! Ask Upgrade. Wow.

01:05:09   Yeah, I haven't been here. The lasers have been building up. High powered lasers.

01:05:16   Danger. Dangerous. You have to let it out.

01:05:18   High powered lasers. The first question comes from Myke. Myke, this is not me, is loving

01:05:23   his 9.7 inch iPad Pro but wondered if you should get a screen protector for it. Jason,

01:05:27   what do you think?

01:05:28   I have never used a screen protector on anything, but you know, don't let me be your guide,

01:05:32   maybe I'm a bad example. What about you? Do you use screen protectors?

01:05:35   No, I do not. Why do you not?

01:05:39   I don't, well, they get in the way, they're hard to apply, they have like bubbles and

01:05:44   stuff. I tried once and with one that like cut the glare, it was like a non-glare thing

01:05:49   and it was never really satisfying.

01:05:51   And you know, the glass is pretty tough.

01:05:56   And I do have a cover, right?

01:05:59   So the glass is very rarely exposed when I'm not using it

01:06:03   and for my iPad Pro and I think that's enough.

01:06:06   So for me personally, I don't see the value

01:06:10   in having like a protector on it all the time,

01:06:13   but I do recommend that somebody have a cover on it

01:06:16   because that's when it can scrape on things,

01:06:20   I would say more than when it's in your hands.

01:06:22   - You know, like these days I drag a piece of plastic

01:06:25   over the top of my iPad screen all the time

01:06:27   and there's never any problems with that.

01:06:29   I've never had a scratch in a screen

01:06:33   from one of these devices.

01:06:35   I don't think screen protectors are necessary.

01:06:38   I've never run into any problems with them like this.

01:06:42   I just think that, I think it's fine.

01:06:45   I don't think you need to do it. I understand why someone might use an anti-glare thing,

01:06:51   maybe so they can read their iPad mini by the pool, but just as a protector for the

01:06:57   screen scratching, I really don't think you have to worry about it. These smartphones

01:07:00   these days have such incredible glass, it's so difficult to scratch it. You really have

01:07:05   to go to town to try and scratch one of these things. So unless you're in a line of work

01:07:11   which might mean that you would scratch your screen easier than others then maybe you should

01:07:15   consider it otherwise I don't think you need to worry about it.

01:07:20   Neil asked, I love this question, "A colleague I convinced to switch to the Mac was baffled

01:07:26   by the DMG mechanism for distributing software. How do I explain this to them?" This is one

01:07:32   of the biggest inconsistencies and problems when trying to get somebody to switch to the

01:07:38   Mac and part of this is just in the fact that the system is mad and makes no

01:07:44   sense because you have three different ways now of which installing apps can

01:07:50   occur to you. You can get them from the App Store or they're somewhere installed from

01:07:53   like .PKG package files like on Windows right you just double click it and it

01:07:57   installs and some are DMG's like this is the one of the biggest problems of

01:08:02   trying to switch somebody to the Mac is trying to explain this system because

01:08:05   the disk image system for installing software.

01:08:08   Doesn't really make sense.

01:08:09   Sorry, everyone.

01:08:10   I don't think it makes sense.

01:08:12   Why you would open something and then take it out,

01:08:15   but you can also run it from there.

01:08:18   - And then you have to eject the disk image.

01:08:20   - Yeah.

01:08:21   - And then throw away the, no, it's dumb.

01:08:24   It really should be, you know, some other,

01:08:29   an archive that you double a zip or something

01:08:32   and you double click and it unzips

01:08:34   and then you copy it to your application folder.

01:08:36   The advantage of the DMG is that it appears,

01:08:39   you can put like a background,

01:08:40   you can have a little alias to your applications folder,

01:08:42   so you tell people to drag it,

01:08:43   and that's sort of become the convention.

01:08:44   But I think it doesn't make a lot of sense,

01:08:47   and the fact that you have to do the cleanup afterward

01:08:49   is really annoying.

01:08:50   And I'm a little surprised that Apple hasn't

01:08:52   done more to make this better,

01:08:55   but I think the problem is, that politically,

01:08:58   since the existence of the Mac App Store,

01:09:00   it's very hard to get support within Apple, I suspect,

01:09:05   to make it easier to install software

01:09:08   that isn't from the Mac App Store.

01:09:09   - Well, because when the Mac App Store was created,

01:09:11   that was their solution.

01:09:13   That was what they thought, and what everyone thought

01:09:14   would mean that this was the only way

01:09:16   you needed to distribute applications,

01:09:18   but that's not how it's turned out.

01:09:19   - No, and so one of the problems, I think,

01:09:21   is that not only is the Mac App Store a disappointment,

01:09:24   but it's actually stalled, perhaps, progress in other areas.

01:09:27   'Cause yeah, you should be able to get a thing

01:09:30   that has an app in it and double click it and have it say,

01:09:33   "Hey, this is an app package.

01:09:35   Would you like me to put it in your applications folder?"

01:09:37   And you say, "Yes."

01:09:38   And it does it and it deletes it maybe,

01:09:40   or puts it in the trash,

01:09:41   or it lets you choose whether you wanna put it in the trash.

01:09:44   Something that's like an installer thing.

01:09:48   And nope, nope.

01:09:50   - Yeah.

01:09:51   - I don't like installers that spew files everywhere.

01:09:54   That's one of the advantages of OS X always,

01:09:56   was like you just drag the app in and it's installed

01:09:59   and you throw it away and it's uninstalled and very few apps come with an installer package

01:10:03   but at the same time the simple like click on a link download a thing and install it

01:10:08   has this DMG thing in the middle which is not great.

01:10:12   I know that there are people that are screaming about the benefits. None of the benefits outweigh

01:10:18   the issues with this system especially in just trying to help somebody switch.

01:10:24   I agree. It confuses so many people. Non-computer nerd people are completely baffled by DMG's.

01:10:31   Completely. And I don't blame them. They are baffling. They're weird.

01:10:34   I know I was when I switched to the Mac.

01:10:36   And then I'm using my computer all day and I look in the Finder and it's got like, oh,

01:10:40   that disk image of that thing that I downloaded at 9am is still sitting there because I didn't

01:10:45   eject it. How stupid is that?

01:10:46   I literally have just ejected one from this morning.

01:10:50   Yeah.

01:10:51   Even a disk image which then loaded a package file.

01:10:55   So it's like that makes it even worse.

01:10:58   Ridiculous, I hate it.

01:11:00   Jorge asked, or Jorge, I'm gonna go Jorge,

01:11:04   it sounds nicer than the way that I said it the first time.

01:11:07   Sorry if your name is Jorge, I'm gonna go Jorge.

01:11:10   Can we broke artists expect pencil integration

01:11:15   in upcoming versions of cheaper iPads?

01:11:18   I'm sorry Jorge, I doubt this for a very long time.

01:11:20   - I agree.

01:11:21   - The Apple Pencil is part of the Pro line

01:11:24   and Apple need some differentiation for the Pro line

01:11:27   to make it attractive to people.

01:11:29   The Pencil I think is the number one thing

01:11:32   that Apple is trying to promote more than the keyboard,

01:11:36   more than anything else.

01:11:37   I believe is like, this is what makes this a Pro device.

01:11:40   It has this Pencil which you can draw on and take notes on.

01:11:43   I think that that is the thing that they're using

01:11:47   to try and make it stand out

01:11:49   because it visually stands out, right?

01:11:51   You can take a picture of the pencil

01:11:52   and it's like on the iPad and it's like, whoa,

01:11:55   look at that thing

01:11:56   'cause you can't take a picture of speed.

01:11:58   You can't take a picture of true tone.

01:11:59   Like you can't do that, but you can with the pencil.

01:12:02   And I think until there are more things

01:12:04   maybe in the future that make the Proline more attractive,

01:12:07   that's the only place you're gonna find the pencil.

01:12:09   I'm sorry to say. - Yeah, I agree with that.

01:12:11   I think that that's Apple strategy here

01:12:14   is that the pencil is a feature of the higher end products.

01:12:19   - I actually also believe it makes the product

01:12:20   more expensive right now anyway,

01:12:22   because the screens have a bunch of new technology in them.

01:12:24   - I think so, yeah.

01:12:25   - So I think it's a double edged sword.

01:12:27   And then kind of a leading question from this,

01:12:32   Aaron wanted to know what we think the chances are

01:12:34   of a iPad mini sized iPad Pro this fall.

01:12:38   I just don't see that.

01:12:40   I don't think they need to have iPad Pro in all sizes.

01:12:43   like it comes in every color, like it's not necessary.

01:12:45   I don't think, I don't know what you could do

01:12:48   with a 7.9 inch iPad Pro.

01:12:50   Like even the 9.7 is a stretch at like what makes this Pro.

01:12:54   Like can't make a keyboard for it

01:12:56   because that's just ridiculous at that size, right?

01:12:59   - I recommend using the 7.9 inch iPad Pro

01:13:03   with the 12.9 inch iPad Pro keyboard just for laughs.

01:13:07   - It's like, what can you do with that one?

01:13:08   I don't know what you could do to make that Pro,

01:13:11   to be honest.

01:13:11   - Aaron says, what are the chances?

01:13:12   So I'm gonna say 2% because there's always a chance, but it's not gonna happen.

01:13:17   I'm gonna go with 1%.

01:13:19   Okay.

01:13:20   Fine.

01:13:21   You win.

01:13:22   And finally, Kenny this week, having spotted a picture that I posted on my Instagram of

01:13:25   me eating a Waffle House in Atlanta, asked, "How do you take your Waffle House hash browns?"

01:13:33   Jason?

01:13:34   So we have a lot of issues here, right?

01:13:36   This is for you, not me, I think.

01:13:39   I wanna see if you have an answer.

01:13:41   So first off, hash browns are complicated because it can mean different things to different

01:13:44   people. In some places, hash browns are like potato patties, and in other places they are

01:13:50   the kind of grated potato that is fried.

01:13:53   This is not a hash brown to me. A hash brown is a compacted thing.

01:13:58   Which I would call, I don't even know what that is, a potato pancake?

01:14:02   Hash browns makes the most sense. That's what it says on Wikipedia as a way to try and differentiate

01:14:07   it.

01:14:08   There you go, hash brown patty.

01:14:09   hash browns like in McDonald's? I don't know, I don't eat at McDonald's. Alright, because

01:14:14   this is how they look in the UK, but anyway. But so, I don't know, you might have had a

01:14:19   McDonald's breakfast in your lifetime? Who knows? When I was a kid, I occasionally would

01:14:23   have a McDonald's breakfast and I just got the pancakes in the styrofoam container where

01:14:26   you'd try to use the plastic knife to cut the pancakes and you'd cut through the bottom

01:14:29   of the styrofoam and you'd get maple syrup all over your pants. Yeah, good times. Casey,

01:14:34   I know you're out there, you know the answer to this question, what are hash browns like

01:14:37   McDonald's breakfasts. So, so, um, my hash brown preference when we go, I haven't ever

01:14:43   been to a Waffle House, although I've been past one, I've never been in one, um, the,

01:14:48   uh, but when I go to breakfast places, which I do occasionally, uh, I like the, you get

01:14:54   the, you get the grated potato hash browns, and I like them, I like them well done. I

01:14:58   like them, I like them crispy, and not soggy. I don't like the soggy, soggy hash browns.

01:15:03   I want them super crispy.

01:15:05   That's how I like them.

01:15:07   - They're basically one of the reasons this comes up

01:15:10   with the pen show is there is a Waffle House

01:15:12   in the parking lot of the hotel.

01:15:14   - Well, that'll do it.

01:15:15   - So, you know, you'll go there.

01:15:18   And my hash browns, I just have them regular as they come

01:15:21   because Waffle House, they have all these like things

01:15:24   like scattered and chunked and it basically means

01:15:26   that they put different things in them.

01:15:28   I didn't want any of that.

01:15:29   Like I'm sure there's some of them that are nice

01:15:31   but I just wanted it as plain and simple as they could make it and that was how I had

01:15:39   it.

01:15:40   They are. Thank you to Doug Beal for the link to the McDonald's wiki, good lord, which has

01:15:45   the hash brown and it's a, yeah, it's a patty.

01:15:47   There you go.

01:15:48   It's a potato patty.

01:15:49   And I know why they do that because it's, you can move it around.

01:15:53   Well, yeah, you can have them frozen and just take them out and heat them up or whatever

01:15:57   they do to them and right the shredded potato stuff is harder to make and not as portable.

01:16:04   They just say put out your hand and scoop some hash brown into your hand.

01:16:08   The Waffle House is a very southern thing. My family, I used to have an uncle who lived

01:16:13   in Florida and I definitely saw them there. Also I learned a very funny thing which is

01:16:17   there's also a chain of breakfast restaurants there, a competitor to Waffle House called

01:16:21   Huddle House, and it made me laugh because Huddle House, I think literally one of their

01:16:26   strategies when they started was that they could take over old Waffle House locations

01:16:31   and only change a few of the letters.

01:16:32   That's so smart. I love that.

01:16:35   Right? And there was a Huddle House down the road from my aunt and uncle in Orange Park,

01:16:41   Florida, that was clearly an old Waffle House where they had just taken some of the letters

01:16:46   off the Waffle House and replaced them with new letters that spelled Huddle House. And

01:16:50   made me laugh actually because it's like well that's one way to do it is just to

01:16:53   they have a corporate logo and stuff but I believe I believe perhaps it started

01:16:57   with them saying what could we do to be very much like the Waffle House and you

01:17:02   only have to change a few letters I like that strategy yeah brilliant I gotta say

01:17:07   right for I like Waffle House for when I have it once or twice a year you know

01:17:13   because it's so what I imagine right like it's everything I imagined as Joe

01:17:20   Steele says Waffle House is sketchy I agree I I will always up for a cracker

01:17:24   barrel over a Waffle House if I have to choose because the cracker barrel is

01:17:28   yeah yeah I suppose it's more kind of corporate and they want to sell you a

01:17:31   rocking chair but I do enjoy the I have no idea what cracker barrel is cracker

01:17:36   barrel was a cheese yeah cracker yeah well cracker barrel is also a it is a

01:17:41   of cheese but it's also a chain of restaurants that are southern style and

01:17:45   Crackerbarrel.com wants to know my location I will not allow that.

01:17:51   They want to find you. Here's your local Cracker Barrel it's in New York or something I don't know.

01:17:57   But look I you know I know Waffle House is is kind of terrible food that's why I

01:18:03   like it though right like when I come to America I like to have good American

01:18:08   food and I like to have crappy American food because I'm not American.

01:18:12   Yes. Right, so you can tell me all the great American food and I've had lots of

01:18:16   it but I also like stereotypical horrible American food because it's like

01:18:22   part of the tourist attraction. Yeah. Is crap food. Absolutely. Like luminous cheese, you know.

01:18:30   When I'm in the South I want all the stuff that's bad for you, I want, you know,

01:18:33   because what is the point of that? So I totally hear you. So Waffle House, I

01:18:37   I think if you're in Atlanta you should go to the Waffle House, right?

01:18:40   And it's in the parking lot of the hotel!

01:18:42   So there you go, right next to the Apple Car and the MacBook Pro.

01:18:46   It's easy peasy.

01:18:48   So there you go.

01:18:49   Yeah, we're going to put the Waffle House in the parking lot.

01:18:52   We're going to put this whole episode in the parking lot.

01:18:55   You can find our show notes this week over at relay.fm/upgrade/86.

01:18:59   If you want to find Jason online, go to sixcolors.com or the incomparable .com.

01:19:04   You can find him on Twitter.

01:19:05   is at JSNEL, J-S-N-E-double-L, I am at i-mic, I-M-Y-K-E. Thank you again to our lovely sponsors,

01:19:13   Casper, Freshbooks, and ITProTV. We'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye, Jason

01:19:20   Snell. Goodbye everybody!

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