79: Turkey Dinner Pizza


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:11   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode number 79.

00:00:16   Upgrade is brought to you this week by the good people at Casper, premium mattresses on the Internet,

00:00:21   Squarespace, beautiful websites, I guess. I'm gonna make that one up.

00:00:26   Mail route filtering spam and bounce mail out from your mail before it even

00:00:30   gets to your server. I'm Jason Snell, I don't normally read that part because

00:00:34   Myke Hurley is usually here, but Myke Hurley is in transit from America where

00:00:38   he attended Matt Alexander's wedding in Dallas this weekend and he is on the way

00:00:44   back to London. So I have brought in one of my special guest hosts to join me for

00:00:49   this week's edition of Upgrading. You know him from, among other places, the

00:00:53   Accidental Tech podcast and Reconcilable Differences as well as, of course, many appearances on

00:00:58   The Incomparable. Mr. John Syracuse, hello!

00:01:01   I was disappointed. I thought you were going to do the accent.

00:01:04   Oh, I can't. Oh, no. That would be really bad. My English—I'm not prepared to do my

00:01:09   English accent and I can't do a Myke Hurley impression. That I really can't do. I can

00:01:13   do some fake English accents that I learned from watching BBC shows when I was in high

00:01:17   school, but I don't think I could do an impression of Myke. Hello, mate! That's about all I got.

00:01:23   We can work on that. We can work on that together.

00:01:25   All right. Well, that was what Myke and I—that was our code. "Hello, mate. This is a podcast."

00:01:31   That's it. That's all I got. Do some Spinal Tap lines. Do some Princess Bride lines. That's

00:01:36   about it. That's all I got. Those are fake accents, too.

00:01:40   So normally in the show, we do follow-up/follow-out. I know that these are not entirely approved

00:01:47   terms by John Siracusa, but there it is. I wanted to mention that we did—you and I,

00:01:53   along with a bunch of other interesting people did an episode of The Incomparable that posted

00:01:57   this weekend about Firewatch, the game from Campo Santo and published by Panic. And people

00:02:02   should listen to it if they want to hear. Yeah, they might want to hear what I have

00:02:05   to say about it or Tiffany Arment or Brian Hamilton or Tony Sindelar or you. See, that's

00:02:14   the big piece there. You also, that is your like official, so far your official statement.

00:02:20   Runde Caldwell's on that too, although she had the flu and so she was very tired. That's

00:02:24   your official statement about Firewatch so far is episode 290 of The Incomparable.

00:02:28   Yeah, I think we covered it all. Like, I don't think there's a need for me to talk about

00:02:34   it in any other podcast. I think I haven't listened to the episode yet, but I felt good

00:02:38   after it was done. I felt like everybody got, you know, their opinions out there.

00:02:42   Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think it worked out pretty well. And it's a good game. People

00:02:48   should play it. It's reasonably priced. My understanding is on most modern Macs it will

00:02:52   play fairly well. You may have to crank down the settings, the frame rate may be kind of

00:02:57   low but it's playable and if you've got a PS4 you can buy it and play it there too.

00:03:03   And I'm fond because I'm not somebody who invests dozens of hours of time like you do

00:03:07   in something like Destiny. I'm never going to play a game like that for all of those

00:03:13   hundreds of hours. I love these short games that take, they're sort of like movie length.

00:03:20   They're a little bit longer, but I think I played Firewatch in like three hours, three

00:03:24   and a half hours or something like that, and it was a great experience and I was happy

00:03:28   that I had done it when I got to the end. And I might play it through again, I'm actually

00:03:32   hoping that my wife will play it through and maybe I'll watch while she does that. But

00:03:36   I love those, I love these short games that are, you can tell a story and have an experience

00:03:41   and get to the end and not have it invested, you know, a week or two of your life.

00:03:45   That's the key that you you will be able to get to the end. Like, for the most part,

00:03:50   if you can make it five minutes into this game, you will be able to get to the end.

00:03:53   You will not find yourself thwarted by, like, "I started playing this game and then it got

00:03:57   too hard and I couldn't." Yeah, it's not one of those games.

00:04:00   You'll make it through. Can you move around in a 3D world? I mean,

00:04:02   if you can move around, like... Yeah, I mean, that is a barrier, to be fair,

00:04:06   but if you make it past the first five or ten minutes, you'll be fine. And you'll be

00:04:10   sucked into it and you should block out three hours to play to play it straight through

00:04:14   because it's fun. It's a page turner of a game if that makes sense.

00:04:17   Yeah, and people were asking about the incomparable episode, they said, "Are there spoilers?"

00:04:21   And I think we did a pretty good job. If you want to be completely unspoiled about the

00:04:27   game, you shouldn't listen to the episode until you've played it. If you—we talk

00:04:31   about things that sound like they could be major spoilers, but I feel like they aren't

00:04:36   because they're things that happen in the first couple of minutes of the game, so they

00:04:40   aren't spoilers for the game play, they're just spoilers for the premise of the game,

00:04:46   which is, I feel like, a different kind of spoiler. And when we get to the point where

00:04:49   we start talking about what happens at the end of the game, we blow the spoiler horn.

00:04:53   But it depends on how lightly do you want to be spoiled going into it. We do talk about

00:05:00   it a lot before we get into the "what happens" part of the story.

00:05:04   story. Yeah, and to some degree, if you have no awareness of the game, you have to at least

00:05:09   like read a summary somewhere, start reading a summary to know what kind of game is this.

00:05:14   But if you don't really care and you just want to take our word for it, going in cold

00:05:17   is always fun. It's like going into a movie that you, you know, maybe you've never seen

00:05:20   an ad for it, never seen a poster, know nothing about it, and you just show up. And sometimes

00:05:26   that can be fun. I saw the demo at XOXO, which was really interesting because it's, um,

00:05:34   I knew part of the game but not the beginning because the demo is a part

00:05:42   where you're sent on a mission because you see some fireworks. You know the part

00:05:46   I'm talking about. You have to go investigate by the lake.

00:05:48   What's the source of the fireworks and get those people to stop shooting off

00:05:51   those fireworks. But watching the game I had no idea of the backstory of the

00:05:56   character and that's the first five or ten minutes of the game is this

00:05:59   backstory of how this person ends up, who you are playing, ends up out in the

00:06:03   the wilderness. And so it was kind of fun to go through that, because I was like, "Oh,

00:06:07   that's why he's out here!" Because that part I hadn't seen. I'd seen a chunk from sort

00:06:11   of like the 20-minute mark in the game, not from the very beginning.

00:06:17   That's always a challenge for those games. Like, if you're going to give a demo, what

00:06:19   do you demo? Because it's very difficult to--you don't want to spoil the game by demoing it,

00:06:26   but you do want to show people what the game is like, and usually don't have time or money

00:06:30   to make a custom segment that's not actually in the game that merely shows, I don't know,

00:06:35   what the game would be like.

00:06:36   Right. That mini-game that I want, where all you do is stand there and look for fires in

00:06:42   the wilderness.

00:06:43   That is not what the game is like, though.

00:06:45   That is not like the world's slowest arcade game, where you're there for an entire summer.

00:06:50   It's not like desert golfing.

00:06:53   It rolls out in real time, so you literally have to be there for an entire summer.

00:06:56   Yeah. And on day 31, there's a little puff of smoke, and you're like, "Oh, is that

00:06:59   No, that's nothing. And then the rest of the summer passes. That's not what the game is. It's not like that at all.

00:07:05   Anyway, it's a good game. We all liked it.

00:07:10   We had criticisms because, you know, nothing is so perfect, as somebody told me, that it cannot be criticized.

00:07:16   But I think totally worth playing, and since there's a Mac version of it, if you've got a Mac that's at all modern,

00:07:21   you should be able to play it, which is nice.

00:07:27   I also had a little bit of follow-out for ATP, the latest episode, 159, which I started

00:07:34   listening to live and then I had to make dinner for my family and then it turns out I tuned

00:07:40   out just as my name was being mentioned, which is hilarious because I totally missed that

00:07:44   part. I could have been there when it happened. Because you were talking about my Ethernet

00:07:51   port dying the other week with the Stealth software update where they banned, Apple banned

00:07:56   its own Ethernet driver from activating, which I figured out because I have my Ethernet connected

00:08:03   to a Thunderbolt breakout box, and I thought something had happened to the Thunderbolt

00:08:09   box, like it had died, so I plugged the Ethernet into my iMac and it still didn't work and

00:08:13   I thought, "Okay, that is creepy." Like, I got another cable and plugged it in and that

00:08:18   one didn't work either, and then I was completely mystified about what was going on for a while

00:08:22   there so but you know it's all good now I got my ethernet back and I actually

00:08:29   leave my Wi-Fi turned off because there's an annoying bug in OS X where

00:08:33   sometimes even though Ethernet is prioritized over Wi-Fi sometimes the

00:08:41   Wi-Fi seems to just decide it's going to be used instead and so I'll be copying a

00:08:48   you know, 20 gigabyte podcast folder to my server, and I have gigabit Ethernet,

00:08:56   and it will and I will find that it's transferring it really slowly. And it's

00:09:00   because it's it's using Wi Fi instead. So I generally leave my Wi Fi turned off,

00:09:04   because that's the one way that I can force my computer to always use the

00:09:08   Ethernet. But as a result, when my Ethernet ports died, I knew immediately

00:09:12   because I was off the internet. And all my audio plugins with their annoying

00:09:17   DRM that have the phone home to make sure that you're authorized. They're all based

00:09:22   — not only could they not get on the internet, they're all based on your ethernet ID, apparently.

00:09:28   And it couldn't see my ethernet cards, essentially, my ethernet hardware on any of my ethernet

00:09:35   devices attached to the system. So they all failed, too. I didn't get any editing done

00:09:40   on my Mac.

00:09:41   I always leave the Wi-Fi turned off for that exact reason. And also, around the same time

00:09:46   this bug happened, one of my ethernet switches went bad. As far as I'm able to determine,

00:09:51   it really did go bad because it didn't not see the ethernet port, it was there, and it

00:09:57   would sort of work when I would reboot my switch. It would appear to work for a second,

00:10:00   but then it would become disconnected and then I would watch my switch reset. Anyway,

00:10:03   I think I actually really did have a bad switch, but it was kind of weird that I had an ethernet

00:10:07   problem at the same time that other people were having to disable my ethernet driver

00:10:12   Yeah, wired internet. It's still a thing. It's still, I mean, the speed I get with

00:10:19   that gigabit Ethernet, it's so great. I copy these huge files and they copy so fast.

00:10:25   It's amazing. I love it. And I'm still a little baffled about why the system tries

00:10:32   to use the deprioritized network adapter. Like, it's down at the bottom of the list.

00:10:38   really don't use Wi-Fi and it's still finder copies will still happen with

00:10:44   Wi-Fi and you know you can't tell if it's a small file but when it's one of

00:10:47   those 20 gigabyte folders and it says this will take 40 minutes and you're

00:10:51   like that's that's too long it should take less time but I don't know there's

00:10:58   something there it must I don't I'm mystified about it because it's not like

00:11:01   my ethernet connection goes up and down it's always there it's solid I can see

00:11:07   the cable, you know? And yet it'll be like, "I'm just gonna use Wi-Fi now. That'll be

00:11:12   fun. Let's throw these bits in the air just for kicks."

00:11:16   Yeah, I have no idea why it does that either. I mean, I've seen the same thing, and you

00:11:21   know, in fact, I get to the point now where I don't trust the ordering at all. If I see

00:11:25   the little fan symbol in the menu bar because I've forgotten to turn it off, I just immediately

00:11:30   turn it off. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. The only problem is

00:11:37   handoff stuff. Although handoff stuff is, I think some of the handoff stuff now works

00:11:45   even when you're on Ethernet, if you've got Ethernet and Bluetooth. Like it'll say, "Oh,

00:11:49   you're on the network and you've got Bluetooth." But in Yosemite, I know that I couldn't use

00:11:54   handoff with anything if I had Wi-Fi turned off. So if I wanted to handoff something,

00:11:59   I had to like, it kind of destroyed the purpose of having a convenient way to do handoff,

00:12:04   is I would have to go turn Wi-Fi on and then hand something off and then turn it back off,

00:12:08   which is dumb. Oh well. Anyway, that wasn't even my follow-up. My follow-up was that you

00:12:14   talked about HFS Plus. I don't know if I have that ding sound effect that I can put in that

00:12:19   Marco always puts in for ATP. But I just, I loved you talking about HFS Plus and the

00:12:27   the whole story behind how if you attached an HFS+ drive to a Mac, and this is Mac OS

00:12:33   8.1, right, that this happened. It was like 1998. And if you attached an HFS+ to a Mac

00:12:43   that didn't support HFS+, it had that little like teach text file that was basically, "Here's

00:12:52   why you can't see what's on this disk." And you could open it and it would tell you,

00:12:56   it was just baked into the format was this kind of fake, old-style HFS disk

00:13:02   that had this one file in it. But what was really funny and also kind of sobering

00:13:08   in terms of how long ago this was and that I remember it is that was right

00:13:11   when I started at Macworld. I started Macworld in late '97 and I remember the

00:13:15   briefing that we had about 8/1 where they had a whole like white paper

00:13:19   about HFS+. They came into the Macworld offices and this was back in the time

00:13:23   when Apple executives came to computer magazines because Apple was not, you know,

00:13:32   in great shape and like extolled the virtues of their updates and stuff. So we

00:13:37   had like Phil Schiller, I'm not sure if he was in that briefing, he might have

00:13:41   been. I definitely remember Phil Schiller coming in for OS X briefings,

00:13:45   you know, schlepping up to San Francisco and coming to presumably all

00:13:50   of the magazines and sitting down and doing a demo of what they were doing with the operating

00:13:55   system. And I definitely remember, I remember the room it was in that we had that briefing

00:14:00   for OS 8.1 and HFS Plus, and they were talking about how excited, exciting it was that they

00:14:05   had this new update to the file system, and it was going to be the Mac OS extended format,

00:14:11   and it was going to offer all of these possibilities and possibilities for the future. And I remember

00:14:16   at the time, it was just sort of like, okay, this new file system, that's a little wrinkle,

00:14:20   But I would never have guessed that 18 years later we would still be using it on all of

00:14:29   our computers.

00:14:31   18 years later it's still just HFS+.

00:14:33   I think that when they made OS X or when they make these grand new things, they're like,

00:14:38   "We believe this is going to be the foundation for the Mac platform for the next 15 years,"

00:14:42   or something like that.

00:14:43   Even then they don't say like 18 to 20.

00:14:45   Maybe they said 20, I don't know.

00:14:47   like the sort of grand vision of like we are setting the foundation for you know the next

00:14:51   era. And this was just like now you can have big volumes and your block size won't be

00:14:56   humongous. Well yeah and they didn't even have this was not even in the you know this

00:15:00   was the what this was the very beginning of the Steve Jobs return era but really this

00:15:08   was obviously in the works for before Steve got there this was before the next acquisition

00:15:13   happened that they were working on this thing. And all our devices still have it. Now, it's

00:15:19   not like they didn't add stuff, right? They added journaling at one point, and of course,

00:15:24   there was that question of whether this was going to be the file system that OS X used,

00:15:28   which ultimately, yeah, it was in the end. But we still have it all this time later.

00:15:35   And we're not going to do… Somebody actually asked what we… When I asked what we should

00:15:40   talk about on this episode. Somebody said, "Everything that Jon likes to talk about

00:15:44   except file systems." Okay, wow. But I wanted to at least reminisce about this a little

00:15:50   bit just because this seemingly innocuous briefing that I remember from 1998, and it's

00:15:57   still with us today, I just find that mind-boggling. I feel like I've been in the house that I

00:16:03   live in forever, and we bought it in 1999, that was 17 years ago. HFS Plus, longer than

00:16:09   Wow. Another fun tidbit about HFS+ was it had support

00:16:14   for 255 character file names. Up to that point, the Mac had been limited to 32 character file

00:16:19   names, so the file system supported it, but the operating system didn't yet. So they could

00:16:23   kind of sort of brag, like, "Oh, we've extended HFS+ and it has these new features, and you

00:16:29   can change these new attributes to let you have larger volume sizes, and you can have

00:16:32   255 character files, but not really because the OS doesn't support that yet, but we'll

00:16:35   support that soon." So it's like you had a file system that supported a feature, but

00:16:40   then an operating system that kept you within 32 character file names, which was just weird.

00:16:44   But back then, something like that was the least of Apple's problems. You're like, "Okay,

00:16:49   well, at least I suppose in a future update, assuming Apple is still in business, they'll

00:16:53   have this thing."

00:16:54   We were so beaten down at that point. It's like, "Whatever. Okay. Fine. Great." Yeah,

00:17:02   it was a different era.

00:17:03   Because Windows had true 255-character file names at that point, and so there was a little

00:17:07   bit of a competition there.

00:17:08   Yeah, I remember we, you know, you get the Finder and you start to type and you can't,

00:17:12   you know, they're like, "Hey, long file name support is here," but you'd still get to what,

00:17:16   32 characters, and it would be like, "Boop!

00:17:17   Nope, that's it.

00:17:18   That's all you get," until they updated the whole OS to support it later.

00:17:24   And then, you know, the OS X error, there was all the, like, are they going to support

00:17:29   case insensitive or case sensitive and the

00:17:32   There's yeah, it's actually kind of a miracle that although they made that huge operating system switch with OS 10

00:17:39   They kept the file system. It's

00:17:41   Kind of amazing, but yeah, I mean there was the option to install in UFS for a little while

00:17:45   I'm the early days of OS 10, but that eventually went by the wayside

00:17:48   Yeah, I like how that went too because over time it just got more and more the warnings got more and more dire

00:17:53   Do you remember that where it was like you?

00:17:55   probably don't want to do this and then I think maybe at one point it was just in the server install it's like well

00:18:00   OS X server could do it, but you really don't want to and it's got there are issues

00:18:05   But we'll let you and then finally was just like no you know it's OS X extended

00:18:11   You know Mac OS extended is required now

00:18:13   I had a couple more pieces of follow-up, and then we'll get into our topics I

00:18:20   Thought it was um

00:18:22   We got we got a note from Michael listener Michael

00:18:25   based on last week's show where Myke and I talked about the naming of the iPad and iPad Pro and

00:18:30   This seemed this question seemed to have your name written all over it as somebody who used an iPod touch for a very long time

00:18:36   Which is if we go to iPad and iPad Pro lines

00:18:39   How about the iPad line adding a third size and using that to replace the iPod touch?

00:18:44   Could they just change the silkscreen on the back of iPod touch and call it a an iPad?

00:18:51   Light or something iPad with the iPad nano iPad nano. Yeah, that's it. Okay. All right

00:18:57   I don't know if you have any thoughts about this idea of like do that by for caving the iPad

00:19:02   As incredibly confused as the iPod touch

00:19:06   product name is

00:19:09   I don't think it would be an improvement to call it an iPad because iPad means tablet for everybody and when you see this tiny little

00:19:16   Thing you could say whatever you think it might be but it's definitely not a tablet. It's not you know what I mean

00:19:21   It's smaller than all of Apple's phones at this point.

00:19:24   It's smaller than the phones, exactly. That's exactly it.

00:19:27   So why would you do that?

00:19:29   Yeah, so Apple will continue to call it the iPod Touch, and customers will continue to call it the iTouch, and that'll be fine.

00:19:36   Yep, that's it. I don't know. I kind of have come around to the idea of splitting the iPad line in two.

00:19:48   But, yeah, it's still going to be weird if they do it.

00:19:54   And I'm not quite sure…

00:19:55   What do you mean by "pro" and "non-pro"?

00:19:56   Yeah, "pro" and "non-pro."

00:19:57   The idea that the things that are the top-of-the-line features are the…

00:20:02   I wrote a piece that was on Macworld that I'll put in the show notes about the idea

00:20:07   that, yeah, so your pencil support and your smart connector and the top-of-the-line processors

00:20:13   basically are in something you call the iPad Pro.

00:20:15   if they come in what we think of as the iPad Air size and the iPad Pro size now, and they

00:20:21   end up calling those the, you know, whatever, 10 and 13 or some fraction of those versions.

00:20:29   And then separately you have the iPad line, which is basically your slower, lower featured

00:20:34   and cheaper version. And that's treating them like laptops instead of treating them

00:20:40   like iPhones where they're currently treated, which also means that last year's model

00:20:44   is no longer what's for sale for cheap, instead it's just the lower product line

00:20:47   model

00:20:48   that's for sale for cheap. Yeah, that all makes sense because they've shown that

00:20:52   they're

00:20:52   willing and able to add features on the high end and so

00:20:55   they've already done it essentially themselves by for creating the line. It's not just a

00:20:59   naming difference, it's not just a size difference. The iPad Pro is different in

00:21:02   fundamental ways

00:21:03   from the rest of the line. So I think you can move the pencil all the way down, but the

00:21:07   smart connector in particular, the whole idea that you're going to treat this as

00:21:10   more of a Microsoft Surface style system, more of a laptop replacement, like that Apple

00:21:16   has finally gone there instead of being like, "Well, some people like to use it and you

00:21:21   can use a Bluetooth keyboard and blah blah blah."

00:21:22   Like, no, there's a connector for it, it's a keyboard, we sell it.

00:21:26   We fully expect you to use this more like a laptop.

00:21:29   Eventually we'll get the OS support there.

00:21:31   But like I said, I think the pencils can go all the way down if they want, because I don't

00:21:33   think pencils are a pro feature.

00:21:35   I think they just happen to have started off there.

00:21:38   They can go all the way down the line.

00:21:39   I think they could go all the way down the line to the phones and it would be fine.

00:21:43   With customers anyway, if not with Apple.

00:21:45   But the other things like, "Oh, we've got tons of RAM and we've got the really high

00:21:49   refresh rate for drawing."

00:21:50   You don't need that if you're just going to use a stylus like on the Galaxy Note or

00:21:54   whatever.

00:21:56   And the smart connector and the keyboard support and whatever else they do.

00:22:00   The whole idea of a high-end product means not just capabilities, but if we have a choice,

00:22:07   regular ones for consumers we're not going to shove like four gigs of RAM in

00:22:10   them because we don't think they need it but for this one we are because we want

00:22:15   you to be able to run pro level applications and they can start by

00:22:17   forgetting the software as well they get the real benefit from it where why is

00:22:21   someone going to buy a thousand dollar iPad well what if I told you that there's

00:22:24   special applications that only run on the pro line and then people can write

00:22:27   software just for the pro line that takes advantage of all these fast memory

00:22:30   and fast faster CPUs and more memory and whatever other capabilities they want to

00:22:35   give. Yeah, I kind of like the idea of, and I wonder if some of this is just thinking

00:22:44   that the iPad doesn't behave like a phone market, it behaves like the tablet market,

00:22:49   or I mean behaves like the laptop market or the computer market, they've got the longer

00:22:52   refresh cycles and all that, so it's like, let's name them like we name our laptops.

00:22:57   We don't keep last year's MacBook around. We don't do that. Well, there's that one

00:23:05   with the non-retinas. Other than the one for education that's just sort of like, "Please

00:23:09   don't buy this," but, you know, schools want it, so we're going to sell it. But, you know,

00:23:14   the new MacBook retinas don't come out, and then the old MacBook retinas are still for

00:23:18   sale for slightly cheaper. Like, they don't do that. Instead, they've got the MacBook

00:23:23   Pro. Well, they did that with the MacBook Airs, too, right? No, but the MacBook Air

00:23:26   got updated. The MacBook Air actually got updated, right? Which is weird, but again,

00:23:31   I think that's a price thing.

00:23:32   It got the innards bumped a little bit, but they didn't go retina with it.

00:23:36   It was what they would have done.

00:23:37   So they sort of kept that line around because they weren't entirely confident in its replacement.

00:23:42   It's a transitional product here, but yeah, but it's not last year's models.

00:23:47   It's this year's model of this thing that's going to go away.

00:23:50   But they did bump it a little bit, right?

00:23:51   Whereas the iPhone, it's just sort of like, yeah, it's last year's model, but it's $100

00:23:55   less, so you could buy it.

00:23:56   I feel like that's what they're trying to do with the iPad is maybe go in that direction

00:24:00   if that rumor is true, that just say, you know, this is how we're going to do it,

00:24:04   is it's differentiated by product lines, and within the product lines there are different

00:24:07   sizes, but that's what you get to buy. You can buy the cheaper ones or the more expensive

00:24:12   ones that are a little bit nicer, but you've got what we've got here and not the one from,

00:24:19   you know, you can buy the three or the two or the one or whatever. With a mini, it's

00:24:22   like you can buy the four or the two.

00:24:24   But you're thinking they're gonna keep two versions of what used to be the full-size

00:24:30   iPad, one with the smart connector that's called the Pro and one without that's not?

00:24:35   It's not in the rumor, but I kind of feel like they've got to have a full...

00:24:39   I don't understand how you could take the current iPad Air, make a new one, and call

00:24:45   it an iPad Pro and not still have an iPad Air or maybe just iPad that's also available,

00:24:52   because that is, by all accounts, as far as I can tell, the mainstream iPad. That is the

00:24:59   one, it's the classic one, and it's probably the best-selling one. And I feel like, you

00:25:04   know, why would you make that a pro? Not everybody is going to want a pro, so it seems like that

00:25:10   makes sense to sort of say, "Well, the new one is a pro, but we're going to keep the

00:25:15   old one around. Maybe it's the Air 2, maybe it's the Air 1. We're going to keep it around,

00:25:21   you know, those are your choices. You can get this regular one or you can get the Pro one.

00:25:26   Yeah, that makes sense for now anyway. Yeah, it's hard to get there. I would still like to see the lines

00:25:30   extend, like the Pro to get more Pro-y and for the low end for them to drive that down more.

00:25:36   I agree. Because they're still kind of hanging on to the idea that like the Mini is like,

00:25:40   "Well, the Mini is just as good as the Air 2, it's just a smaller size." And it's like,

00:25:44   you can make that Mini a lot cheaper if you backed off a little bit on that and just to recognize that it's an actual low end device.

00:25:51   I feel like that's where they're going with this. The question is how committed they are

00:25:55   to that and how low do you go. And that's the mystery because they haven't done something

00:26:01   like this before, I think. But there's room. I mean, observers of the tablet market suggest

00:26:07   that cheaper—one of Apple's problems is that they rule the premium tablet market,

00:26:14   but there's this huge other tablet market that is not a place that Apple wants to play.

00:26:18   So does Apple want to push down there with the iPad?

00:26:21   If they've got a pro line, can they afford then to sort of take the regular iPad line

00:26:26   down a little bit in scope?

00:26:28   And maybe they can.

00:26:29   Maybe that's good.

00:26:30   Oh, see, they didn't do it on the Mac.

00:26:33   They never really went super low-end.

00:26:35   The Mac LC, never mind.

00:26:37   They never went for the really low end.

00:26:39   They never made a netbook.

00:26:40   They never actually made a Mac that was this cheap, right?

00:26:42   But with the iPod line, they totally did.

00:26:44   The iPod line, they said, "Sure, we'll sell you a shuffle for 50 bucks."

00:26:47   So they tried on the iPod line to go with pretty much as low as you can go.

00:26:50   I mean, maybe it wasn't $25, but they were selling you an iPod for $50 for $49.99 or

00:26:54   whatever.

00:26:55   They went low end on the iPod.

00:26:56   Did they – I mean, it was – I don't think it really helped that much or hurt that

00:26:59   much, the iPod, but it was an experiment for Apple to say, "Let's take this product

00:27:03   line on the iPod that we've diversified, and then we can kind of see the growth curve

00:27:06   and it's kind of going away, but you know what?

00:27:08   Let's go all the way down, as low as we can go.

00:27:11   How cheaply can Apple make a thing and still call it an Apple device, but really get a

00:27:15   price point that's like just a little more expensive than an iPod sock. Yeah.

00:27:19   It's hard to compete against the six-pack of Amazon tablets, but it's, you know,

00:27:25   but they aren't iPads, right? So it'll be interesting to see if they go

00:27:29   this route, what they do and how low they do go. Yeah, yeah, we'll see.

00:27:37   We'll see. It gives them some room. Although, I would say that, yeah, Apple

00:27:43   never made a netbook, but they have experimented in how low they can go. Like, the fact that

00:27:48   there is now always a Mac laptop available for just under $1,000.

00:27:55   That's still a premium laptop. It is, but Apple didn't used to go down that

00:27:59   far with their laptops. It used to be you had to get $1,299 or $1,399 to get into a

00:28:04   Mac laptop at all. And now it's less. They're not immune to PC pricing. PC pricing

00:28:09   has come down so much. The average selling prices of computers has just gone so low that

00:28:16   they have to be pulled down a little bit. And then you break under the four-digit price,

00:28:20   and that's kind of important. Plus, really, you're going to get argued back up there by

00:28:23   your friends telling you to get a Mac with more RAM anyway.

00:28:25   Sure. But I look at that and I think, well, that's sort of what this is, which is tablets

00:28:30   are exerting pressure to come down in price. But it's still, you know, they're not going

00:28:34   to go too low. They're not going to sell a six pack.

00:28:39   make the iPad shuffle with no screen. It would be really cheap to make.

00:28:42   Super easy. Alright, well, I want to do a sponsor. Let's do that. And then we'll

00:28:50   talk about some topics and probably have room to talk about pizza at the end because, you

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00:29:54   sleeping on one for a year and a half. It just feels like a really good mattress.

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00:31:04   I just bought some pillows and sheets from Casper that are coming tomorrow. You excited

00:31:10   me with your discussions of Casper pillows on ATP, so I'm trying those out.

00:31:15   It's pretty neat. I like the advancement of pillow technology instead of just being

00:31:19   a sack stuffed with stuff. Yeah, pillow stuff.

00:31:23   Now it's multiple sacks, I'm led to believe. I don't know. Anyway, it's cool.

00:31:27   Yeah, they got a whole technology thing there. So yeah, I'm looking forward to trying that stuff out.

00:31:31   Now that I got the mattress, I figured, just let's just go all the way. Let's just all Casper all the time.

00:31:35   Okay, so we're going to come back to pizza. I have pizza down as a topic, because why not?

00:31:43   But I thought we would talk about home tech a little bit. This is one of those things where

00:31:48   every now and then on ATP, I feel like you're talking to people who don't understand you.

00:31:56   and that maybe I'm more like your people than they are in the sense that I, like you, have a TV and a home theater set up

00:32:10   and I care about how my TV settings are and you know, Casey seems to not care if he's watching soap operas.

00:32:17   So I thought maybe we would talk a little about tech in our homes, especially entertainment stuff, because you and I are not cable cutters.

00:32:25   cutters, we have TiVo's, we have lots of other little boxes, and I thought it would

00:32:29   be interesting to talk about that a little bit since we have that in common, and that

00:32:32   a lot of our colleagues, like Myke is a, basically a cord cutter who only watches, he seems to

00:32:39   maybe watch a little bit of video on TV now, but he basically doesn't understand why

00:32:42   a TV exists, he would rather just watch TV shows on an iPad.

00:32:46   So.

00:32:47   He just watches YouTube on his phone held two inches from his face.

00:32:49   Yeah, well I get the sense that he's watched all of Seinfeld, like, sitting on a couch

00:32:54   with an iPad, which as it was meant to be, as it was foretold in the old times. So you

00:33:00   have a TiVo Romeo, right? Like I do? Is that right?

00:33:03   Yeah, I have the whatever the fanciest one is.

00:33:06   Yep, yep, me too. Me too. And when I hear you talking about this stuff, you were mentioning

00:33:12   Plex on there and how Plex on TiVo does some things and not others. I think the Plex app

00:33:17   on TiVo is limited to 720p, which is kind of infuriating. I think that's the case.

00:33:23   We're on Apple TV.

00:33:24   I think it might just be the menus that it's limited to, but I'm pretty sure it down mixes

00:33:29   everything to stereo, so it's a non-starter.

00:33:32   Yeah.

00:33:33   I love my TiVo.

00:33:34   I want to say that it seems totally passe to talk about a TiVo.

00:33:41   This is an old product.

00:33:42   TiVo's been around since like 2000.

00:33:43   It's just a DVR or whatever.

00:33:44   I can get one from the cable company.

00:33:46   But I really kind of love it.

00:33:47   I find I use that.

00:33:48   That is my primary device for entertainment on my TV now.

00:33:53   I do have the Apple TV and I use it some, but most of the time I'm watching, even when

00:33:58   I'm watching streaming, I, most of the time it's coming through TiVo because they've got

00:34:02   the Netflix app and the Hulu app and the Amazon app.

00:34:07   And so a lot of the time I end up just using the TiVo and the TiVo OS having support for

00:34:12   like this show is on Hulu.

00:34:14   Would you like to watch it on Hulu?

00:34:15   And it just sort of plays through to the Hulu app.

00:34:18   So I'm, I'm, I'm really happy with it.

00:34:21   It sort of eliminated a lot of the use cases I used to have for the Apple TV.

00:34:25   Yeah, they've been getting better.

00:34:27   Like they have a million apps on TiVo, but most of the time I would not use the TiVo

00:34:31   for those things.

00:34:32   If I had any other choice, I would use some other box.

00:34:35   But they've been getting better.

00:34:37   Like I think, you know, and the tail end of the previous generation Apple TV, it started

00:34:41   to really be unreliable for me.

00:34:44   The old Apple TV used to be my go-to Netflix box because the TiVo Netflix client was just

00:34:49   really slow and took a long time and would crash sometimes and just, you know, and the

00:34:54   Apple TV one was much more slick and nice, but eventually just like we learned, you know,

00:34:58   "Oh, let's watch a thing on Netflix," and you go to the Apple TV and get some weird

00:35:01   error or the thing doesn't start, and eventually I said, "All right, well, now it's time for

00:35:05   TiVo to have a shot," and the TiVo Netflix app was slow to launch and weird, but it would

00:35:10   play the show, and eventually it started to win, and then the TiVo Netflix app started

00:35:13   to get better.

00:35:14   It's still not as good as the one on Apple TV, especially the new Apple TV.

00:35:18   But sometimes TiVo is also our main thing.

00:35:22   That's basically our input number one on the television and the receiver.

00:35:26   If you're already there, sometimes it's just easier to go to the Netflix app there than

00:35:29   switching inputs and going to the Apple TV.

00:35:32   But mostly I'm watching recorded shows on the TiVo, and so that covers a lot of my and

00:35:36   my children's television watching.

00:35:38   Yeah, well, I've discovered that although I can watch HBO Go and all of that, but I've

00:35:43   got the shows on the DVR, so I just watch them on the DVR.

00:35:46   likewise I've got Hulu so I could watch shows on Hulu but I've got I recorded

00:35:50   them I end up watching recorded and they TV was up there game I on the software

00:35:54   side a little bit like the the apps like tea like the Netflix app in the hulu app

00:36:00   are better but they've also they added the integration where it knows those

00:36:03   episodes are streaming and there's a shortcut to take you to the streaming

00:36:07   app it'll launch the app it'll take you to that episode in that app so I'm

00:36:10   impressed by that and then on the live TV stuff they added the oh oh that's

00:36:16   only in certain markets though it's like in in San Francisco you don't have the D

00:36:18   button yet do you? Oh, for skipping commercials? Yeah. No, we've got that. Do you have that

00:36:24   feature where you get to the... Yeah, I think they rolled that out. Have they rolled that

00:36:27   out to everyone now? That's so great. So when it gets to the end of a part of the show and

00:36:33   it goes into the commercial break, a little thing comes up that says press the press D

00:36:38   to skip all the commercials and it's for supposedly it's like in primetime-ish for the top like

00:36:44   20 most watched channels because they've got to have like a sweatshop somewhere

00:36:48   where people are just like putting in the time codes of all the commercial

00:36:52   breaks and if you watch a show right when it's on it's not there but like an

00:36:56   hour or two later the skip information gets put in but that's such a great

00:37:01   feature because you can you know you can watch the commercials if you want to and

00:37:06   you can skip them if you want to you whether you I know you were a big

00:37:09   thirty-second skip guy and I kind of went back and forth between you know

00:37:12   badoop badoop badoop or just 30 second skip, but now you just press the button and it just

00:37:17   jumps over all the commercials. And that's a great feature too.

00:37:20   Yeah, it means people without my amazing 30 second skipping skills can successfully skip

00:37:25   commercials. Even a child, so easy that even a child can do it. My son controlled the remote

00:37:29   the other day and he just pressed the D button when the thing comes up and it says skip.

00:37:33   Of course, like, this is leading to their UI having, you know, I don't know what their

00:37:37   UI is thinking, like how many badges can you fit at the end of a thing? Like they've already

00:37:41   got the HD one and now we have the skip one. As soon as there's not going to be any room

00:37:44   left for the title, there's going to be a series of badges and then like a colored dot.

00:37:47   Well, also how many things can they overlay on the picture? Because you have when it goes

00:37:51   to commercial it puts the skip to D and then it's got that other stupid feature which is

00:37:55   like smart speed sort of in Overcast where it's like watch the show but slightly faster,

00:38:00   which I don't understand that at all. I don't know why anyone would want to watch that.

00:38:04   They've got a lot of TV to get through. They really need to go faster.

00:38:07   Yeah, I've got advice for them. Just watch. Take a bad show that you don't like and don't

00:38:12   watch it. And watch them all at the right speed instead of at this weird, compressed

00:38:19   like, it's like those movies where they would, what was it? Was it in England that they did

00:38:25   this the standards conversion thing where rather than like converting the frames, they

00:38:29   would just play it faster or maybe it was taking movies and playing them on TV and you

00:38:34   play them too fast. But it's that same idea. It's like, why are these people moving strangely

00:38:39   fast? And the answer was, because we just didn't want to worry about the frame rate.

00:38:43   We just played it at the new frame rate. It's not a good idea. Don't do that. But TiVo's

00:38:48   got it there, and every time you press the play button, it brings up the thing that says,

00:38:51   "Did you know that if you press this button now, everybody will talk a little bit faster

00:38:55   and it'll be really annoying?" Yeah, I know that, TiVo. I don't care.

00:38:59   Yeah, the main problem the TiVo apps still have is they all suffer in comparison to the

00:39:03   native TiVo watching recorded television interface.

00:39:06   Sure.

00:39:07   So for example, like I've just finished watching the first season of Man in the High Castle,

00:39:11   and I watched it through my TiVo on the Amazon thing, and every time you launch the Amazon

00:39:16   app, there's no commercials in it, but there is a one minute and 20 second credit sequence

00:39:22   that I would love to skip.

00:39:23   Right.

00:39:24   There's no D button to skip it, there's no 30 second skip.

00:39:27   you can skip it, but it doesn't work the same way as the regular TiVo timeline works.

00:39:31   You have to essentially fast-forward, you know, 2x, 4x, whatever, and like—

00:39:34   Because these are all these Opera—they're basically HTML apps.

00:39:37   They're like Opera web apps, so the UI is totally unlike anywhere else in the TiVo when

00:39:42   you're in those apps.

00:39:43   And it's not as good.

00:39:44   It's not as responsive.

00:39:45   No, it's not.

00:39:46   Whereas on the Apple TV, even though the apps all seem to vary a lot, all of them have a

00:39:50   fairly responsive scrubber that responds to the swiping of your thumb, and most of them

00:39:54   I'm seeing to respond to the 10-second forward skip thing in a similar level of responsiveness,

00:39:59   whereas the TiVo, it's like, it's clear. Am I using the real TiVo, or am I using one of

00:40:03   those weird apps? And the weird app ones just are much more delicate, and you can't really

00:40:07   perturb them, because you might be seeing some spinners, and you might not know what

00:40:11   you're skipping to and from, and you might have to wait a while to catch up.

00:40:15   You know, the real horror is I have a 4K TV, which, you know, it was cheap.

00:40:24   And my TV—so, listening to you and knowing we're in this era, as you talk about on ATP a lot,

00:40:30   where the plasmas are gone, but the new, wonderful TVs aren't here yet, my TV died.

00:40:38   And I was like, "God." I was hoping it would hang on, but it just—it died.

00:40:42   It's like fry. You've gone to stasis for five years. I know, just don't watch TV for a while.

00:40:47   Be like Myke, just watch things on my iPad for a while.

00:40:50   I mean like fry in Futurama, like go into stasis.

00:40:53   One of those little things frees you, you wake up, it'll be five years later.

00:40:56   President Trump, what? But give me a TV and I'll be fine.

00:41:01   So I went to Costco and I bought a Costco TV and this was my strategy.

00:41:07   Basically I'm not going to pay too much for this muffler.

00:41:11   That was my strategy. I was like, "Look, I just want a TV. I don't care if it only lasts a few years. I don't care. I just want to have a TV until I can one day buy a really good new TV that's going to be fancy and let me see in all the colors that I can't see."

00:41:25   What did you get, a Vizio?

00:41:26   I got a Vizio 4K that was decently reviewed. I stood there. I did the thing where you stand in the middle of the TV department at Costco and look up reviews on your phone.

00:41:37   And there was a Samsung TV that was about the same cost that was rated similarly, and

00:41:42   then there was this Vizio one, and it was a 4K TV.

00:41:45   And I thought, "Well, that's got more Ks, so I'm going to get that."

00:41:49   And you know, it's not bad.

00:41:51   I have bought a couple other Vizio TVs at Costco, and what I would say about them is

00:41:56   Vizio TVs have gotten a lot better since the first one I bought.

00:42:00   I would say that.

00:42:02   Wow.

00:42:03   So much better.

00:42:05   they're cheap and for like I've got a TV out here in the garage that gets used

00:42:08   rarely but it does get used and that it's a good it's a good use for it but

00:42:13   for the main TV so I got this 4k TV and it looks pretty good and the UI isn't

00:42:18   fantastic but it was the price was right and it looks pretty good and it's got

00:42:22   this 4k so it's like okay 4k what can I do with that is that anything can I can

00:42:28   I even discern the difference in quality but the the thing about it is how do you

00:42:32   get 4K content onto a 4K TV. Right now you could buy, I guess Amazon has a 4K

00:42:38   Fire TV you can get now, but when I bought this TV that wasn't out yet.

00:42:41   The answer is Netflix and Amazon's apps that are built into the TV support 4K

00:42:49   streams. So sometimes I watch Amazon and Netflix content not on my TiVo or my

00:42:56   Apple TV but on like an animal on the TV app on the TV set itself yeah like you

00:43:05   should do the math on for the viewing distance I'm pretty sure that you're not

00:43:09   getting any benefit resolution you may be getting a better from the wider color

00:43:13   range or the more flexible frame rates depending on how this stuff is created

00:43:18   but you're probably getting stuff subtracted by the massive compression

00:43:23   of those streaming services you're using.

00:43:24   So overall, it's probably about a wash, but you might get better.

00:43:28   And the other problem is the slightly wider color ranges that are supported by the 4K

00:43:32   televisions, the content may not be mastered that way, so it may not be helping you.

00:43:37   And the other thing is, even if it is, and even if they send it that way, the television

00:43:40   that you bought at Costco may not be able to even display that whole range.

00:43:43   So it's probably a wash, but it's probably not hurting you too much.

00:43:47   And that is, of the two possible viable strategies for buying TVs now you picked one.

00:43:51   is get the cheapest television you possibly can. You didn't even do that because you

00:43:54   got a 4K. It would have been better if you just got a much cheaper 10E.

00:43:57   Well, that was the thing. I almost got the Samsung, which was basically within $100 of

00:44:03   the price and was not a 4K TV but was well-reviewed and was in the ballpark. But it was that I

00:44:11   wanted to be good enough that I feel like I'm going to enjoy watching this TV and this

00:44:15   is not a long-term investment. Just get me through until there are better TVs. Although

00:44:20   I gotta say, having bought these three TVs over the course of the last, whatever, six

00:44:24   years, they are a lot better than they used to be. Like, that first Vizio TV that I bought

00:44:30   was so bad. Like, the black levels on it were so awful, and even just the LCD TVs have come

00:44:37   a long way. But about the 4K, my thought—and I haven't tested this, and I actually haven't

00:44:44   even looked up it, it may or may not be true—it's very hard for me to test this, like, do A/B

00:44:49   of this because the amount of time it takes for me to switch from like

00:44:51   daredevil here to daredevil there and compare the 4k you just kind of can't do

00:44:56   it

00:44:56   my thought is that the 4k stream is probably a higher bit rate than the 1080

00:45:02   stream that you know 2160 stream it's probably seeking to a higher bit rate

00:45:07   basically the way Netflix works you know it's scaling based on how much it can

00:45:11   get across the pipe and you might get something that starts in 480 and then

00:45:15   goes up to 720 and then goes up to 1080 and if you're watching on a 4k TV

00:45:18   it will then keep going and it will go up to 2160. And so my thought was, "Well,

00:45:25   maybe what I'm getting here is a better quality picture because it's able to,

00:45:30   you know, the 4K stream is a higher resolution, but also even though it's

00:45:35   heavily compressed, more bitrate than the standard 1080 stream." That could also be

00:45:41   totally fiction because it's very hard for me to tell. I cannot say surely that

00:45:47   I'm absolutely seeing 4k level of detail on this. It's like, oh no, no, no. I totally see the 28,

00:45:53   no, 2180. No, it's, it's not, no, I can't say that. I think it may be a placebo, but my hope is that

00:46:01   it looks better in general. I don't know. Yeah. And you still haven't had a television with decent

00:46:07   black levels in your house. I know you, the LCDs have gotten better, but it's kind of a good thing

00:46:10   that you've never seen what these shows are actually supposed to look like, including on your

00:46:14   Max by the way. The Max don't have the great black levels either. That's not true though because

00:46:17   I think you know this that I the land of the forbidden television fruit is Arizona where

00:46:25   when my parents when my parents moved into their house five years ago they bought two huge beautiful

00:46:32   Panasonic Plasmas and I was down there the other week and I was it was when the Expanse was on

00:46:38   and I decided I was going to watch the Expanse when I was down there rather than waiting and

00:46:43   and I told Lauren, "Go ahead and watch The Expanse, and I'm going to watch it down here,

00:46:47   and when I get back, we'll compare notes about it." And I watched that, and that's a space

00:46:50   show, so there's a lot of black outer space stuff in it. And I watched it on that huge,

00:46:55   like I don't even know what it is, 70-inch plasma in my mom's living room. Oh my God,

00:47:00   right? It's just like, so I've seen, you know, I've had a few years to know what the black

00:47:05   levels look like on a TV.

00:47:07   You should never have looked at it. They're even more impressive on OLEDs, of course.

00:47:11   I should never I should avert my eyes whenever I go down there. It's a beautiful TV

00:47:14   I told my mom if she ever decides to move to a smaller house. I would like to take that plasma

00:47:18   It's not gonna fit in your entertainment center. You're gonna have to tear down that whole side of the room and I will

00:47:23   And instead there will be a giant TV. It's erected on a wall and it will be good. I

00:47:29   Don't know. It's a it's funny. I'm happy with the the TV. We got whether the 4k is a real thing or not

00:47:36   It looks it looks good. It looks better than the TV we had and

00:47:40   And, uh, you know, that's, that's good enough for now.

00:47:44   I, I, what I find funny talking about giant TVs is every time I shop for a TV,

00:47:49   I say, no, no, it's gotta be bigger than the last one.

00:47:51   Cause the last one wasn't that big.

00:47:52   It's like that old Steve Martin routine.

00:47:54   Do you remember that?

00:47:55   Where it's like, I got, I got mono and then I got stereo and the mono sounded

00:47:59   like, sounded terrible.

00:48:00   So then I got a quadraphonic.

00:48:02   Then that sounded, you know, made, made stereo sound terrible.

00:48:04   And then I got like Google phonics where I have a thousand speakers,

00:48:07   but now it sounds terrible too.

00:48:08   I feel like that with TVs.

00:48:10   Like I keep saying, "No, no, no. It needs to be a bigger TV. Oh, no, no, no. This one will be a little bit bigger.

00:48:14   This one will fit in the entertainment center, so next time I'm going to get one that sort of sticks out the sides,

00:48:19   but it'll still fit on the base, so it'll be fine."

00:48:21   And I still have that now, where I got the—so I got this TV that's several inches diagonal bigger than the last one,

00:48:27   and now I look at it and go, "Eh, it could be bigger. It could be bigger."

00:48:31   Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the TV manufacturers do that for you, because, like, when I bought my big TV,

00:48:38   Which is not even that big the smallest size it came in was 55

00:48:42   That was the smallest and that was like so much bigger than any television I'd ever had before

00:48:46   I'm just waiting until the small size you can get a 65

00:48:48   I mean, I don't know if they're gonna go there, but the minimum size for the good TVs is

00:48:53   Going up and up and it's at the point now where you can't even buy small televisions

00:48:57   Like yeah want to get like we wanted to get a television for our bedroom that was smaller but not crap

00:49:02   It was impossible because I don't want a 55 inch television in my bedroom

00:49:06   Can you have a small TV that doesn't look like crap?"

00:49:08   And the answer is no, we don't make those up.

00:49:09   I recommend the iPad.

00:49:10   Again, we'll go back to the mic method.

00:49:12   No, the iPad is not a good TV.

00:49:13   No, I agree.

00:49:14   I agree it's not.

00:49:17   Myke will disagree with that.

00:49:18   But no, it's hard.

00:49:19   I mean, just display-wise, just like it does not perform well as a television, ignoring

00:49:24   the fact of the size and how close to you.

00:49:25   Because I do watch things on the iPad, like not things that I care about too much, but

00:49:30   rewatching old television shows or whatever, I do watch them on the iPad, and it's fine,

00:49:34   but by no means is this a good television. Yeah, I looked at the small TVs when I was

00:49:40   at Costco and I was kind of aghast because yeah, there's below a certain point you're

00:49:44   like in novelty TVs. It's like, I guess you could have a tiny TV, but it's also a microwave

00:49:50   and has an FM radio. Yeah, it's like a kitchen TV and it's like, you can make it look good.

00:49:55   Like it's still going to be cheap, but you just put a decent size, but you know, it's

00:49:59   not the way the economies of scale work, I guess. Like they have the lines that are making

00:50:02   television they have to make up a certain size to make their money back

00:50:05   and they don't want to sell you one for 200 bucks that's 40 inches or 30 inches

00:50:09   yeah and that's now a small TV that's the funny thing 40 inch TV yeah a little

00:50:14   shrimpy could do could do more well I've got some more stuff to talk about but I

00:50:21   would like to take a break I think maybe now it's a good time to tell you about

00:50:25   something else that's cool as Casey Liss might say this episode of upgrade

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00:53:12   support of UPGRADE and all of Relay FM. I feel like it's a miracle that I didn't at

00:53:18   any point call them Sparesquace in that ad, Jon, because that's what the guys at the Flop

00:53:22   House do.

00:53:23   It's their own fault for having a confusing enough name to confuse Dan McCoy

00:53:29   lots of simple words confuse Dan McCoy though, so

00:53:33   Yes, we should I loved I will say this a little follow-up to I loved you and Merlin talking about

00:53:40   Flophouse on

00:53:42   Reconcilable differences, which is a great podcast that

00:53:44   Reconcilable differences the podcast that I think man

00:53:47   I don't get to talk about any of this stuff on any of the podcasts I do and I do a lot of podcasts

00:53:52   but they're all about stuff.

00:53:53   - You just gotta keep making up podcasts

00:53:55   until every single thought that enters your head

00:53:57   has an outlet and a podcast.

00:53:59   - Well, you would think that I would have already had

00:54:00   all of those things, right?

00:54:01   You think I would have covered it, but I haven't

00:54:04   because all my podcasts are sort of about stuff

00:54:07   and "Reconsiderable Differences" is not about that stuff.

00:54:10   It's just about life.

00:54:11   It's like Myke and Casey do on "Analog."

00:54:14   It's just about feelings and growing up

00:54:17   and being a parent and stuff like that.

00:54:19   So it's a great podcast, people should listen to it,

00:54:21   But you guys did talk about Flophouse and I thought it was really endearing that the

00:54:24   first time you just assumed that everybody knew that you were huge super fans of the

00:54:28   Flophouse. And so you gave it a little tough love about like the sound quality problems

00:54:32   and all that and Merlin referred to it as like that weird show. And then the guys who

00:54:36   did the Flophouse heard that.

00:54:37   That wasn't tough love. We were explaining why we loved it. It just didn't sound like

00:54:40   it but we were.

00:54:41   Well, yeah, but you know fans sort of like can talk. It's like talking to a member of

00:54:45   your family. It's like you don't protect them quite as much, I think. You're like, "Yeah,

00:54:51   know, I love the flophouse. Of course, you know I love it, so when I tell you that it's

00:54:55   got all these terrible technical problems, I'm saying it with love, right? But I felt

00:54:58   like maybe that got lost in translation a little bit, where they're like, you know,

00:55:02   I think Dan McCoy is a little, who edits the episodes and sets up and is the recording

00:55:07   studio and he's the designated technical guy. I think he is still bugged by the fact

00:55:12   that they are riddled with technical problems when they record that podcast. So you guys

00:55:16   came back the next time.

00:55:17   Well, it is a comedy show.

00:55:18   Yeah, it is a comedy show. It's not a tech podcast. They're not tech experts. They're comedians.

00:55:22   Well, so in a comedy show, though, they can be laughing with you or they can be laughing at you,

00:55:29   but in both cases they're laughing, so success! Yeah, exactly. But two weeks later you had to

00:55:34   come back and explain your love again for the Flop House, which I thought that was sweet. Our

00:55:39   friend Steve Lutz from The Incomparable took your advice ultimately and listened to the Flop House

00:55:46   from the beginning and it says that he likes it now. He's like in episode 60 or something.

00:55:53   Yeah, and he tried to say listening from the beginning was a mistake, but now he has done it.

00:55:58   Like, it's an important thing to have done. Like, puberty is probably a mistake too,

00:56:02   but you're glad to have done it. Sure. Okay. I'm just gonna let that go.

00:56:07   I mean, consider the alternative. Exactly. That's right. Would you want to stay 11 forever?

00:56:13   Peter Pan? I don't think so. The other thing I wanted to talk to you about is about the future of the Mac.

00:56:21   You know, we could go on forever about it and I don't want to do that, but I think it's worth at least touching on.

00:56:25   I was thinking of you when I read that blog post about the WWDC wishlist from Steve Trotton Smith,

00:56:31   who, I mentioned this last week I think on Upgrade, used the phrase "OS 10 is a dead platform."

00:56:39   And I just was interested in what you thought about sort of overall, you know, where is the

00:56:44   Mac today and where can it go from here? Where should it go from here? Where will it go from

00:56:50   here if it goes anywhere? Because Steve Trotton Smith's point is sort of like all the OS X

00:56:55   advancements in the last few years have been sort of keeping it in sync with mobile. And that's not

00:57:03   particularly exciting. And then you see sort of like the Mac App Store being kind of rotting on

00:57:09   the vine. And there's a real question about like, is the Mac done? Are we just sort of like, it's

00:57:15   not like we can't keep using it, but is there more to be done there? Or is it just this thing that's

00:57:19   gonna sit there and be what it is for the rest of its life? Does it have more change in it? Or is

00:57:27   this sort of all that it will ever be? And you know, you and I have been using the Mac for since

00:57:32   time immemorial so I thought I would ask you what do you think about that?

00:57:35   There's always more to be done on the Mac like you can always make it better there are

00:57:40   plenty of things wrong with it where it can be better but in terms of the future of the

00:57:44   platform outside any sort of artificial constraint where Apple could decide to do of course whatever

00:57:51   it wants to do but outside of anything like that it's not dead until something kills it

00:57:56   in other words if there are things that you can either only do on a Mac or do much more

00:58:01   easily on the Mac, that means that the other platforms have a way to go before they prove

00:58:06   that the Mac is a dead platform. It's not as if just because there is a new platform

00:58:10   and a new way of doing things that is better in some ways, that you should ditch the other

00:58:15   one. So again, Apple could decide to ditch the other one to sort of force the issue,

00:58:17   but we all know right now that there are certain classes of things that are either only possible

00:58:22   on the Mac or so much easier on the Mac that if we were forced not to use the Mac to do

00:58:26   them, it would be a handicap. And no one wants to make themselves less efficient or less

00:58:31   capable to sort of prove a point. So it's up to the other platforms, whether it's iOS

00:58:38   or any other platform from any other company, to show that the old way of doing things with

00:58:43   personal computers is not valid. And I think we all know, technologically speaking, however

00:58:47   you might want to describe it, there are attributes to what we currently know as personal computing

00:58:53   that will surely live on regardless of what the future is. If the future is all iOS-type

00:58:59   devices or tablets or whatever, as we can see tablets like the Microsoft Surface and

00:59:05   the iPad Pro and stuff sprouting keyboards, that's kind of a confirmation that regardless

00:59:09   of the future, surely there will be a role for something like a keyboard in the future

00:59:13   of computing.

00:59:14   Does that mean that the Mac will live forever?

00:59:15   No, but it does mean that, hey, that whole idea from the PC world of having a keyboard

00:59:19   that you type on, that's probably a keeper.

00:59:21   Like maybe, you know, that still has some life in it.

00:59:25   Maybe it goes away entirely when we have thought control or whatever.

00:59:28   But for now, no matter what the future of the platform is, keyboards are good.

00:59:32   Mouse — indirect pointing device.

00:59:34   Touch is good.

00:59:35   Touch is much better for tons more things than the mouse is.

00:59:38   Pen input is also good.

00:59:40   Mouse is also pretty good too.

00:59:42   It's a precise pointing device.

00:59:43   You can use it on large screens or whatever.

00:59:45   I think the jury's kind of still out on it, but in general right now, you're not going

00:59:50   to get rid of the mouse until something can do everything the mouse can do better.

00:59:54   Oh, I don't need the mouse anymore because X and so far the answer to X has been because I have a finger or stylus

00:59:59   And that's not really you know that they don't do all the same things right so

01:00:03   It's you don't want to tie up like the Mac as a particular platform and OS X as a particular OS with all the technology

01:00:10   So I just look for I just look at the capabilities and say if I didn't have a Mac

01:00:16   What would I use to do these same things and would it be just as good or better?

01:00:20   Because that's what you're looking for you're looking for just as good or better. You're looking for progress

01:00:23   progress. It's not just going to switch over entirely. And the wrinkle in that is that

01:00:28   the Mac does continue to get better. How can the Mac get better? It can get more stable.

01:00:32   God knows it can, you know, more reliable, not crashing-wise, but it can do its job more

01:00:37   predictably. It can get faster. It can always get faster. It can get more capabilities that

01:00:43   it can have that other devices can't. Right now, still, the Mac has a higher power

01:00:49   envelope than its competing devices, whether they be laptops or iOS devices, which means

01:00:55   you can put bigger, hotter things in there, which means you can have better graphics for

01:00:58   games and faster CPUs.

01:01:01   Not much better graphics for games, not much faster CPUs, but still, it's ahead.

01:01:06   When that all evens out and basically the fastest processor you can get in the entire

01:01:09   world fits into a phone's power envelope, that will be another strike against the Mac.

01:01:13   But then you've still got the ergonomic issues in terms of how big of a screen can I put

01:01:16   on it?

01:01:17   Do I have to hold the screen?

01:01:18   with me? Does it have a big keyboard? What about a precise input with the pointing device?

01:01:22   Besides the stylus and a finger, can I use a mouse?

01:01:25   So I'm not particularly worried because it seems like Apple has its head on its shoulders

01:01:30   about not sort of artificially deeming this to be the end of the road for the Mac and

01:01:36   from now on they're just going to make iOS devices because I think they know if that

01:01:40   happened, then everybody who currently uses a Mac would not be, their needs would not

01:01:45   be as well filled by other devices that Apple sells and they would go buy something from

01:01:50   some other manufacturer and Apple's like, "No, you can keep buying a Mac, we'll keep

01:01:53   making them, you keep buying them until we ourselves, Apple, come up with something that

01:01:57   is better than the Mac in all ways, or at least as good or better in all ways, we'll

01:02:02   keep making and selling Macs."

01:02:03   And that's a smart decision by Apple and that's why OS X is currently not a dead platform.

01:02:10   My concern though is that, I was thinking about this when I was writing my review of

01:02:14   iPad Pro that my concern is that the Mac is becoming a... that it's limited in how much

01:02:25   it can change, not just because it's a mature platform, but because it represents stability

01:02:31   in a world of change. And this is an imperfect metaphor, but you know, I feel like sometimes

01:02:37   the Mac is like CBS where there are there are like way more cutting-edge TV

01:02:44   shows on cable and CBS could try to put on a show that was a cutting-edge show

01:02:50   like you'd find on cable and it's its viewers would reject those shows because

01:02:55   they don't want that they want the comfort of the thing they've come to

01:02:59   understand as a TV show which is CBS now CBS is profitable and it's and it's and

01:03:04   it's healthy and it's a very successful business, but they are also trapped in

01:03:10   their success in the sense that you know they are not going to push the envelope

01:03:14   forward. The rest of the industry is doing that in various pockets, but their

01:03:19   their audience loves them because they are what they are. And that's it's not a

01:03:24   perfect metaphor, but that's my concern about the Mac is that you can't radically

01:03:28   rethink what the Mac is because they're already radically rethinking computing

01:03:32   with iOS. The Mac is more like, for people who prefer a computer like we had

01:03:38   in the old days, the Mac will always be here. Which I think is a good thing as

01:03:43   somebody who's been a Mac user for 20-plus years, but it does sort of make

01:03:48   you ask the question, is there something it can do that's new or is it all just

01:03:53   sort of, you know, it could be faster, it could be more stable, it could just keep

01:03:57   doing the stuff that it's already doing, just do it a little bit better.

01:04:01   I think you're underestimating the flexibility of people who use personal computers or Macs

01:04:06   to get their jobs done.

01:04:08   If you just think of, I mentioned before, the idea that Apple would say, you know, MacOS

01:04:13   10 is going to be the foundation for the Mac platform for the next 15 years.

01:04:17   I think that Mac users today would absolutely accept another MacOS 10 style discontinuity

01:04:24   in the operating system, which if you think about it, discontinuity between what we know

01:04:27   as classic MacOS and OS 10 was tremendous.

01:04:29   I mean, they were the same OS, barely in name only.

01:04:31   Like the old OS ran in a little emulation layer until Apple could ditch it, and eventually

01:04:36   it transitioned everything to essentially the next APIs and a new language.

01:04:40   And it was just like, it was an amazing transition.

01:04:42   They made it, but like, what does OS X have in common with the Mac now?

01:04:46   So little if you were an old school Mac user.

01:04:49   The spirit is there.

01:04:50   They kept the Apple in the Apple menu, but that's only when we complained about it.

01:04:53   It wasn't actually original even there in that.

01:04:56   And some QuickTime APIs and some file system APIs and lots of stuff from carbon that's hanging around

01:05:00   But a lot of that stuff is slowly deprecated but like really like

01:05:03   Technologically speaking interface paradigm. It was just you know, and it was type of thing

01:05:08   Okay

01:05:08   Maybe Mac users back then were more willing to accept it because it was like look at see this of the company goes out of

01:05:13   Business and we were missing some major new features, but for the most part

01:05:16   Even diehard classic Mac OS users were like this is cool. Like when OS 10 came out

01:05:22   Yeah, this this I don't you know, maybe I want my classic Apple menu back or whatever

01:05:26   But the dock is cool

01:05:27   The window system is cool that the whole sort of some of it people might say it's just fashion or whatever

01:05:32   But it wasn't it was like we're rethinking

01:05:34   What a personal computer interface should be looked at should look like we're changing the standard that basically I always

01:05:40   Described it to people like a movie computer like you know how you see those

01:05:43   Computers and movies that look ridiculous because some graphic designer comes up with an interface

01:05:47   Well Apple built that like this is a real thing as a real working interface where you know

01:05:51   Everything is double buffered and things magnify under your mouse cursor and everything is photo realistic and and zooming and squishing and doing like

01:05:59   You know kind of like the iPhone was like a movie interface to of like things sliding around a touch interface that no one had ever

01:06:06   Seen before and yeah, there was consternation from classic Mac users, but in the end we were like

01:06:11   Okay, Apple show us the way this is the future of personal computing. Let's go with that

01:06:16   It has been what how many years now 15 years more or less?

01:06:19   I'm not saying Apple needs to radically overhaul OS X in that way. They have been slowly evolving it if you were compare

01:06:25   You know the OS X today to 10.0. You would think that they're also very different operating systems, but

01:06:32   an interface paradigm shift in the next five years where they rethink the whole idea of

01:06:37   the dock and the finder and the menu bar and a lot of stuff like

01:06:41   Maybe or like you said maybe they just decide this is a stability thing

01:06:45   We'll just keep it until we can replace it, but they have to do one of those they have to say

01:06:48   They have to increase the capabilities of the iOS line until we can all do our jobs

01:06:53   better or at least as well in that interface paradigm, which is forgetting input device

01:07:00   just in terms of are there files and folders and a dock and a bunch of windows or something

01:07:06   else.

01:07:07   We really need to advance those capabilities or they need to keep evolving the Mac as they

01:07:10   have been.

01:07:12   And don't underestimate the impact you can have on things like, "Oh, just make it faster,

01:07:16   just make it more stable."

01:07:18   Like, there is a step change in a lot of those things.

01:07:20   What does faster or more stable mean?

01:07:23   You pick two different directions, right?

01:07:25   So let's take the Mac and say, say Apple decides what's going to differentiate the Mac is going

01:07:29   to be reliability.

01:07:31   And all they do for the next five to ten years is just make it like bulletproof, like, you

01:07:38   know, industrial grade sort of, you know, the most reliable thing you can imagine that

01:07:44   just squash every ounce of every bug, every cosmetic glitch, everything that doesn't work

01:07:48   how it's supposed to and it just works.

01:07:50   And in comparison to our phones and iPads that are rapidly evolving, those will seem

01:07:54   like pieces of crap and it'll be like, the Mac will become like the mainframe of the

01:07:57   world where it's like, it always does exactly what it's supposed to do.

01:08:00   They've removed as many bugs as they possibly can.

01:08:03   Server-side thing will probably be a killer deal for this.

01:08:05   But anyway, this would be one way to differentiate the Mac.

01:08:07   Would be, like, is it going to be just that stable thing?

01:08:12   a damn well better be stable and I will accept that it is not evolving at a rapid rate if

01:08:17   I know that, you know, that this is the rock, this is the foundation, this is the boring

01:08:22   stable thing.

01:08:23   Or they could go in the other direction and say let's take advantage of our higher power

01:08:26   envelope and just make everything lightning fast.

01:08:28   Let's make iOS devices look like the slow crappy ramstar things that they are and let's

01:08:33   find ways to accelerate the Mac taking advantage of the technologies that we have here to try

01:08:40   to make the Mac just feel an act so much more responsive and whatever it is that is currently

01:08:46   time-consuming on the Mac make it faster whether that's storage or you know some sort of like

01:08:52   encoding tasks or graphics driven things we don't have the power envelope to do it on

01:08:56   the phone that's probably a tougher sell because it's the personal computers are getting faster

01:09:03   much slower than other devices are because other devices are creeping up on them like

01:09:07   so it's harder to get more performance at the top end, but the highest end performance

01:09:11   that you can fit in a phone keeps going up and up and up. So anyway, those are two possible

01:09:15   directions to make the Mac—to differentiate the Mac as a platform, as opposed to simply

01:09:21   sort of saying, "Well, it's going to be like it was," kind of going along at the

01:09:24   similar rate that it was, but not really taking advantage of the fact that it isn't the

01:09:32   tip of the spear anymore. I like the idea of refining what we have and making it that

01:09:41   much better and using what traits the Mac already has that are its assets and using

01:09:47   those to its advantage. I think that's great. I think in terms of doing another radical

01:09:51   rethink, I guess that's sort of my point is I feel like Apple doesn't have it in

01:09:55   them to do that because where they're exploring and where they're doing new things, the

01:09:59   is all being poured into iOS for that. And that it feels to me like even if

01:10:04   Apple wanted to give the Mac a radical rethink, I don't think they would

01:10:09   because they don't have the energy for it. And I'm not sure the audience wants it either, though.

01:10:16   I mean if you look at what Microsoft did with rethinking Windows, you know, there

01:10:20   were several years of real pain where essentially their market rejected

01:10:25   them and Windows sort of they had to back off of a lot of their attempts

01:10:29   because the people who use Windows which are not Mac users they're a very

01:10:32   different audience but still they said no no we don't want that we just want

01:10:36   Windows we just want what we what we know and I think that there's some

01:10:38   aspect of that in the Mac world too plus yeah the sheer number of iPhone users

01:10:45   out there and the value the iPhone has for Apple as a company if you're going

01:10:48   to innovate and if you're going to try lots of crazy new things you know the

01:10:53   iPhone seems like the place that you want to pour all of your energy. It is

01:10:55   your younger operating system. It is where there's the most action. It seems

01:11:00   like the logical place to do it.

01:11:02   Well, so the Windows 8 thing, like, when you're going to make a radical change to

01:11:07   your most popular platform, which the Mac was the time OS X came out of Apple's

01:11:11   primary platform, you have to have two things. One, you have to have the resolve

01:11:17   that Apple has shown they have and Microsoft has not shown they have. Like, sort of the

01:11:20   courage of your convictions to stick it out because it's not like people didn't

01:11:23   complain about OS X in the early days. I was one of them. Like there was a lot of

01:11:26   pushback from traditional Mac users, a lot of it, right? And Apple listened to

01:11:30   some of it a little bit but in the end just kept plowing through. And the other

01:11:33   important thing you need to have that Microsoft probably didn't have is you

01:11:36   kind of got to be right or at least right-er, right? You know, it has to

01:11:39   actually be better in the long run and it's debatable whether it was in

01:11:43   Microsoft's case. Certainly they didn't have the courage of their convictions. They

01:11:46   backpelled real fast and real hard and tried to come up with this compromise thing and

01:11:51   maybe they end up in a better place for them or maybe they were just on the wrong track.

01:11:56   You know, it's so hard to tell because you can't sort of A/B test the two different timelines.

01:12:00   Although I'm not sure how that works in The Man in the High Castle because I never read

01:12:03   that story and I'm only done through season one.

01:12:05   But anyway, as far as I know, you can't A/B test the timelines to see how things turn

01:12:09   out.

01:12:10   So I think Microsoft is kind of a cautionary tale, but I think I have more faith in Apple

01:12:16   to do both of those things well, to both have a better answer and also to stick it out and

01:12:23   power through and to realize that the customers will be there on the other side.

01:12:27   And they might be different customers, but that's fine.

01:12:30   If you had to guess where do you think the Mac will go in the next like three years,

01:12:35   what direction do you think they will take?

01:12:37   I think it's conceivable in the short term that they do another branding-related thing

01:12:44   tied to—I don't know what they're gonna tie it to—but like, you can—how long do

01:12:48   you keep calling it OS X?

01:12:50   When iOS gets to X, do you decide that you need to flip it for marketing reasons?

01:12:53   It's time for Mac OS!

01:12:54   Time for Mac OS!

01:12:55   Oh, obviously, yeah, I know.

01:12:56   Other than that, because if they do it, maybe they could drop the X then, too?

01:12:59   I mean, that's just so uniform.

01:13:01   But I'm thinking, like, aesthetically more.

01:13:04   Like they did do sort of an iOS 7 style revive in Yosemite, but still, I don't know.

01:13:11   I think there's a room for a lot of apparent "big changes" that really aren't big changes.

01:13:17   They're mostly like changes in marketing and how it's branded and trying to present tvOS,

01:13:22   iOS, and macOS with the lowercase letter in the beginning, all as this family of operating

01:13:27   systems, as if it's some new thing, as if they haven't all been Darwin under the covers

01:13:31   forever and all the other stuff.

01:13:34   So there's a place for that, but I think that's not really going to be significant for users.

01:13:39   And then, which direction are they choosing?

01:13:41   Like it doesn't seem like they're really doubling down on stability.

01:13:44   It seems like they still feel like every other year or so they have to do something to the

01:13:48   Mac that they have features to tout or whatever, but I really hope they reconsider that.

01:13:53   And you know, because if there isn't anything big on the horizon, right, besides the little

01:13:59   lower casing the M and maybe dropping the X and stuff, if there isn't anything big on

01:14:03   the horizon, then please do double down on the stability and bug fixing.

01:14:07   Like we can go three, four years without saying, "Now you can, you know, mark up things in

01:14:12   the whatever application."

01:14:14   Like, just, you have a lot of features there.

01:14:16   Make all of them work.

01:14:18   And your current customers who like Macs will like them even more.

01:14:22   And that is a, that is probably the safest strategy for the Mac if you don't have any

01:14:27   great ideas for a Mac OS X style revolution in the next five to six years.

01:14:31   And it just seems to me that Apple has its fingers in a lot of pies or whatever the phrase

01:14:35   is these days that, uh, and the Mac volume, the Mac just doesn't sell in the volumes.

01:14:40   I think it does that.

01:14:41   They have their hands full just making the Mac the best Mac it can be and hurry up with

01:14:46   these other platforms that you hope will eventually cannibalize the Mac because you have to make

01:14:49   them a lot better before they can.

01:14:52   Do you think the Mac needs a yearly marketing operating system update to hang a tab on or

01:14:58   is that not necessary?

01:15:00   Uh, it's probably fine.

01:15:04   You can do that every year, have a new product and a new name, but stop with the expectation

01:15:09   that you're going to have a bunch of feature bullet points.

01:15:12   Just make it more like when in the car industry where the Honda Accord will go through a redesign

01:15:18   and there will be several years in which it's basically the same Accord, they just change

01:15:22   the front fascia, the plastic trim, maybe some of the options available, but it's the

01:15:27   same car.

01:15:28   have the generational turnover. They sell the same Honda Accord for many, many years,

01:15:32   not just one or two years. So they could do that with the Mac, have a yearly release,

01:15:37   but make it clear. I don't know how they make it clear. The marketing purpose, we understand

01:15:42   that from year to year, don't expect like, "Is this the new generation of the Mac?"

01:15:46   No, it's just another revision of the current generation of the Mac operating system. So

01:15:51   that will give them breathing worm while still giving them something to say about the Mac

01:15:54   on stage every year to see.

01:15:56   Yeah, I was looking at the Wikipedia page for the Honda Civic and realized that I had

01:16:00   a fifth-generation Honda Civic, I think. Or maybe it was a sixth generation, and now I'm

01:16:06   driving an eighth-generation Honda Civic. But it's the same thing, where they've gone

01:16:12   through like ten different generations of a Honda Civic, but they keep them around for

01:16:16   like four or five years.

01:16:18   Yep. I mean, that's what the car industry does, because the investment costs of a particular

01:16:22   platform are so huge. Even if it's just a mild evolution of the previous platform that

01:16:25   you need to recoup those costs, you want to sell it for several years. And like they make

01:16:29   cosmetic changes every year, small cosmetic changes, small trim level changes, fixing a

01:16:33   component with replacing component with more reliable one when they realize, you know,

01:16:38   what may be. But in general, you're not getting the next generation car for several years.

01:16:44   Yeah. Well, we'll see. I'm with you there. I think that they're welcome to call it a new

01:16:52   name every year, but our expectations should probably change and they should not worry

01:16:56   about like, "We've got 300 new features and we did this, we did that." Just, yeah.

01:17:03   I mean, there's so many people who rely on the Mac. I don't know if the Mac needs

01:17:07   to make news. I think it just needs to be good and keep getting better.

01:17:12   And it can make news by being better and more reliable. The most compelling word of mouth,

01:17:20   especially since they're not selling them anymore, like, you know, for money. But the

01:17:22   most compelling word-of-mouth thing you can hear is, "There's a new version of the Mac

01:17:26   operating system. I installed it, and problems X, Y, and Z that I used to have went away."

01:17:31   That is a feature. If you heard someone say that, like, "Oh, you have to get this one,

01:17:35   because the previous one, I had all sorts of problems, and I installed the new one,

01:17:38   and those problems went away." And they want to ask you, "Okay, well, fine, but what new

01:17:41   features does it have?" Like, that's a feature.

01:17:43   - One of the banner features of El Capitan, I think, is the fact that on slow internet

01:17:47   connections, mail actually will check your mail instead of trying to sync like

01:17:51   20 IMAP mailboxes. And that was a feature that they trumpeted, that they

01:17:55   went out of their way to tell me is, "Hey, it turns out that when you're on airplane

01:18:00   Wi-Fi, Apple Mail was really inefficient." And as somebody who'd been on a bunch of

01:18:05   cruises, I was already aware of this. But that was a great feature and that

01:18:11   was a fix to mail to make it not behave badly when you don't have a

01:18:15   super-fast connection. And you know what? That's a great feature, even though it is

01:18:20   just a fix.

01:18:21   Sure.

01:18:23   Alright, well, I think we have just enough time for some Ask Upgrade, a special

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01:20:25   for supporting upgrade and this week's edition of Ask Upgrade. The first item which I moved

01:20:33   down here from higher up in the show is just pizza. Myke and I have been talking about

01:20:38   pizza a little bit on the show, and I sided with Joe Steele on the pepperoni and pineapple

01:20:42   pizza, which I enjoy greatly, which I am certain is not John Siracusa approved, but I was going

01:20:49   to give you this opportunity to school me on what you decide real pizza is, and what

01:20:53   you have determined real pizza is. This is not robot or not. This is slightly different

01:20:57   than the podcast we do about whether things are robots or not. This is pizza or not, which

01:21:01   I think as a single ruling is going to make it clear. I just want—before you speak,

01:21:05   I was going to say, one time I had you over to my house and I made pizza, and I made a

01:21:13   traditional sort of red sauce, mozzarella, and I think maybe there were pepperoni on

01:21:19   it. And then I also made a barbecue chicken pizza. And my recollection is you said, "This

01:21:24   is pizza, and this is some other thing that is not pizza." So can you educate me a little

01:21:28   bit on what real pizza is?

01:21:31   You and Myke talk about the pizza, it's like the blind leading the blind. The guy from

01:21:34   the UK and the guy from California talking about pizza. So you might as well be talking

01:21:38   about zebras. I had a lot of your vast experience with zebras that you both have.

01:21:41   Well, there's the California Zebra Kitchen, so...

01:21:44   Yeah.

01:21:45   Yep. To my right, you left out the most salient detail of the pizza you had at your house.

01:21:50   Was it both of them you can tell me? One or both of them had cheddar cheese on them?

01:21:54   Well, the BBQ Chicken Pizza had cheddar cheese on it. The other one might have,

01:21:58   although I will tell you that I was thoroughly cleared up about the proper use of cheddar

01:22:04   cheese and pizza by you. And now, I will still put some cheddar in a barbecue chicken pizza,

01:22:10   but the traditional red sauce pizza is only mozzarella.

01:22:14   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah. So my whole pizza thing, like so many

01:22:17   of my culinary things, it's all about where I'm from. I'm from the New York Metro area,

01:22:22   up on Long Island. And all my rulings on all those foods are entirely based on what I grew

01:22:29   up with, which I think is true of everybody who has some particular thing about some food,

01:22:35   whether it's someone who grew up in the South and can tell you exactly how grits have to

01:22:38   be, right? Or, I don't know, like crawfish from New Orleans, whatever it is. There's

01:22:44   some local dish that is, you know, that you're from the area where that dish in America,

01:22:49   where that dish is known to come from there, right?

01:22:52   And so you kind of get authority in saying,

01:22:55   and I would say the same thing, for example,

01:22:57   about Chicago pizza, like this is not Chicago pizza.

01:22:59   I can tell you what Chicago pizza is.

01:23:01   I'm from Chicago and I, you know,

01:23:03   you can sort of definitively say that, but in the end,

01:23:06   it doesn't mean anything more than anyone else's.

01:23:11   Like it only is what it is.

01:23:12   You have to recognize that it's,

01:23:14   that all you're hearing is this is where this food

01:23:18   became famous or is most well known, and all this person is doing is telling you how close

01:23:24   the food that you're eating and calling the same thing is to the place where this food

01:23:28   came from and is well known. Everything beyond that, especially when it comes to California,

01:23:34   is something else. Because California makes a lot of things that are like good food, like

01:23:39   made with good ingredients, like not crappy food, that nevertheless are abominations of

01:23:43   the original food item. It doesn't mean they're bad food and might not taste bad or whatever,

01:23:49   but it does mean—and it's almost worse when they're good as opposed to someone making

01:23:53   an abomination out of processed food and gross things—it does mean, though, that they're

01:24:00   that food in name only, or that someone has heard a story about that food and then made

01:24:05   it. They've never actually seen or tasted one, but they heard about it. And so this

01:24:09   is what they've come up with.

01:24:10   I was told if I put cheese and sauce on bread, it would be pizza.

01:24:13   Right, exactly. So what kind of cheese? Does it really matter what kind of cheese or sauce?

01:24:18   Can I take some other meal like hamburgers or fried chicken and put it on top of there?

01:24:22   Yeah, why not? Turkey dinner, put it on top. Is that still pizza?

01:24:27   So anyway, all of my rules are, and for the people who are from these areas, tend to be like a purist.

01:24:34   This is the way it has to be, this is what you put on it, and you don't put other stuff on it.

01:24:38   because the pizza seems so versatile. You can put anything on there, can't you? You

01:24:42   can, but now you're making something different. Even Chicago pizza, for example, is not pizza

01:24:47   by East Coast New York standards. It is a separate thing. They can have rulings about

01:24:51   whether you're making a Chicago pizza, but it is so incredibly different.

01:24:54   So the New York pizza is so simple. Like so many of the original places, it is boring.

01:25:01   You know, it's just you got the dough, you got the sauce, which is always tomato sauce

01:25:05   with a certain set of spices that is very limited. You've got the cheese, which is always

01:25:09   mozzarella cheese, and you've got a couple handful toppings, and that's it. And within

01:25:14   that frame, you can do it badly or you can do it well, and you're judge-based on that.

01:25:18   But once you start branching out into like, "This seems like a, you know, I can do anything

01:25:23   there. Like, I don't like mozzarella cheese." Well, then you don't like pizza. You know,

01:25:27   I want to have pizza, but I don't like mozzarella cheese. Well, then make something else that

01:25:31   you—that is inspired by pizza that you may enjoy.

01:25:32   Flatbread with something maybe a delicious meal that you love like there are lots of interesting things

01:25:38   You can put on top of things that are sort of dishes inspired by pizza

01:25:41   But if you're ever gonna have any sort of ruling about like what is and isn't pizza

01:25:45   You have to pick your definition and I pick my definition from where I came from

01:25:49   Which is the place in America where a pizza was popularized and so that's what I go. So no cheddar cheese

01:25:56   No, no barbecue. No barbecue chicken. Yeah, no turkey dinner. No, no cheeseburger

01:26:02   burgers, no chocolate cake, no bacon, no...

01:26:06   Yeah, so what toppings are allowed by you? Because so far, you have not ruled out my

01:26:11   -- which I know you're about to -- you've not ruled out my pepperoni and pineapple.

01:26:15   All right, so here's the twist in this. Where I'm from, the toppings are fairly straightforward.

01:26:22   You've got pepperoni, sausage, olive. You've got things like meatball that are in there.

01:26:28   You can't say that they're not because it's a topic that you can get in most places.

01:26:34   And it doesn't stray much from – I mean, you've got peppers and onions and mushrooms,

01:26:37   right?

01:26:38   It doesn't stray very far from that, but there is what's known as Hawaiian pizza,

01:26:44   which is pineapple and ham, right?

01:26:46   Which is not pineapple and pepperoni, which is not a valid – but pineapple is as far

01:26:52   out as the weirdest pizza that you have to say, "Is that included in one of the values?"

01:26:57   Because you can get it in New York and most places in the New York metro area, even when

01:27:02   I was growing up, chances are good if you ask for Hawaiian, you got a 50/50 chance maybe

01:27:06   that the pizza place will know what that is and they will have it.

01:27:10   Is it good?

01:27:11   I never liked it.

01:27:13   Did most people get it?

01:27:14   No.

01:27:15   I think it was probably more reviled than anchovy, which is also another valid topic.

01:27:20   But it was for sale.

01:27:21   So I have difficulty judging that.

01:27:25   As far as I'm concerned, I feel like that was maybe the first chink in the armor of

01:27:29   like—

01:27:30   That's where it all went wrong.

01:27:32   Right, right.

01:27:33   But it was not something that I had never heard of.

01:27:37   It's just something that I never chose to eat, but I saw other people eat it.

01:27:41   So I'm going to rule against pepperoni and pineapple, which is just a made-up thing,

01:27:45   but "Hawaiian pizza," quote-unquote, that's borderline.

01:27:49   But you see, the difference between ham and pepperoni, these are salty pork-based—

01:27:55   meats. They are not that different. There's a difference. They're not that different.

01:27:58   They don't go—like, because with Hawaiian, what you're going for is that sort of—I

01:28:02   mean, you've got the whole Spam, Polynesian, Hawaii type thing. Like, ham is different

01:28:06   than pepperoni. It is just very, very different. It's not as good. It's not as spicy. It's

01:28:10   not—just—yeah. So I feel like both of them, for me, it's not my thing or whatever,

01:28:17   and I think the only way you can sneak in is going with Hawaiian and saying it's ham

01:28:21   and pineapple. Pepperoni and pineapple, I feel like you're just making things up.

01:28:24   Well, it's a Hawaiian where they— It's like saying bacon and pineapple, or

01:28:29   even sausage and pineapple. Those are not combinations. That's not Hawaiian. Only ham

01:28:34   and pineapple. My parents would always order what I've considered

01:28:37   to be the most baffling pizza ever, which is beef and onion. So it's like ground beef.

01:28:43   What does beef mean? It's ground beef. It's basically like sausage.

01:28:46   No, that is not a topic. See, you can't just take ground beef and put it on top of

01:28:51   It's not—apparently you can.

01:28:53   And then onion.

01:28:55   And I find I don't understand it.

01:28:56   I'd never heard of anybody.

01:28:57   But you can apparently get this in lots of places, a beef and onion pizza.

01:29:00   I don't know why you'd want to.

01:29:03   I don't know.

01:29:04   I don't know.

01:29:05   Well, see, the variance in pizza across the country.

01:29:06   The other problem is, even if they're using all the ingredients, you think of just plain,

01:29:10   straight up mozzarella cheese, tomato sauce, and dough.

01:29:14   There's such incredible variation in just those three ingredients, such incredible,

01:29:18   vile variation.

01:29:19   There's no safety in like, you have no idea what you're getting.

01:29:22   And so once you branch out, even the New York metro area, meatball pizza was the most dangerous

01:29:26   because what do you, how do they make their meatballs?

01:29:28   There's sort of no standardized, what is a meatball?

01:29:31   You kind of have an idea of what it's supposed to be like in Italian meatballs.

01:29:34   A meatball is like a big ball.

01:29:36   How do you even put that on the pizza?

01:29:37   Do you chop it up?

01:29:38   Do you make little mini meatballs?

01:29:40   You make them smaller, sometimes they're cut in half.

01:29:43   It's weird.

01:29:44   That's the other thing.

01:29:45   Like, in Italian restaurants in the New York area, I would never get spaghetti and meatballs

01:29:48   because the variation in meatballs from restaurant to restaurant was just fantastical.

01:29:52   It could be any kind of meat. They could have onion or celery or other kind of crunchy stuff

01:29:57   in them, which I always hated. Or do they have breadcrumbs?

01:29:59   Yeah, there's a lot of variations in that. So it was not really safe to get. But most

01:30:05   of the toppings are olives or olives. All the vegetables are basically the same. You

01:30:11   very often cut the same way. Pepperoni, even though there's variations in quality, you

01:30:16   kind of tell pepper when you're eating it and when you're not eating it. Sausage, Italian

01:30:19   sausage seems to be a little more consistent than meatballs. It starts to vary. Pineapple

01:30:23   and ham are pretty consistent, too. But around the rest of the country, they can't even get

01:30:27   like the sauce or the cheese or the dough right. And so forget about their toppings.

01:30:31   Who knows what you're going to get?

01:30:33   I use some wheat flour along with white flour in my dough, so that probably puts me in the

01:30:36   crazy California side, too.

01:30:38   You are in California, so I'm like, "Why wouldn't you?" I mean, why not put sunflower seeds

01:30:41   in there while you're doing that? Put some avocado on top.

01:30:43   Yeah, I mean we know about avocado. I can tell the rest of the country they're doing it wrong when it comes to avocado.

01:30:48   If you're putting it on pizza, you're doing it wrong.

01:30:50   And mission style burritos. Those are those are our local foods that we can control.

01:30:53   All right, well, this is why we talk about robots on Robot or Not. This has been Pizza or Not as part of Ask Upgrade.

01:30:59   I have a couple really quick Ask Upgrades that I wanted to get your thoughts about.

01:31:02   One is from Bobby who says, "What comes first? True family iCloud photo libraries, a new file system, ding, or a full iTunes rewrite?

01:31:12   What would be your prediction?

01:31:13   Which one of those will come first?

01:31:14   Oh, I'm going to predict the new file system first.

01:31:18   Not because I think it's imminent, but just because full iTunes rewrite just.

01:31:22   It just seems like it's not even a glimmer in anyone's eyes, but it's, it's hard to tell.

01:31:27   Like, and I follow libraries.

01:31:28   They've done so much with photos lately and they, they probably feel like that they've.

01:31:34   That that need doesn't exist anymore because of like the shared streams.

01:31:37   It does.

01:31:38   It still exists.

01:31:39   I agree.

01:31:40   I feel like that there's an iTunes family piece that's still going to keep dropping

01:31:43   of like all the other stuff getting integrated into into family iTunes accounts.

01:31:49   But all that stuff is like the photos one especially probably doesn't feel as pressing

01:31:54   to them because they just made such a massive improvement to photos that it's time to like

01:31:58   refine and build on that.

01:32:00   I asked them about it too.

01:32:02   I asked them about it and they brought up something that I thought was interesting which

01:32:05   was who's to say that everybody in a family wants to share photos?

01:32:09   Which I thought was like, okay, interesting take on that.

01:32:11   Like your kids, do your kids really want all their pictures dumped into your photo library?

01:32:15   You should have said to them, we're not talking about the whole family, although that does

01:32:18   happen for when the whole family goes on vacation, but surely in families that have more than

01:32:22   one parent, which I believe there are a lot of in the world, surely the parents want to

01:32:28   share the pictures they individually take of their children.

01:32:31   That is a common use case.

01:32:35   So you're going to say file system.

01:32:36   So anyway, yeah, so I'm going to say File System just because it's been so long in coming.

01:32:40   It hasn't arrived.

01:32:41   It hasn't improved, whereas iTunes has been improved many times over, and it seems like

01:32:47   I'm not even sure they know what they want to do with iTunes.

01:32:49   And the photo library, they just made such a huge, massive change to it.

01:32:51   I feel like it is conceivable, 2017, that you could introduce a new file system, and

01:32:56   it's conceivable that by 2017, neither of those other two things happen.

01:32:59   So I'm picking File System, but it could be wishful thinking.

01:33:02   I'm going to pick the family iCloud photo libraries, because I do feel like there's

01:33:05   another shoe that's going to drop, that they've been working to add more features.

01:33:08   Now that they've got the family feature out there, that we're going to see

01:33:12   additional stuff thrown into it, I'm hoping that we're going to get a shared pool of data

01:33:16   for iCloud and that we are going to be able to opt to have photo libraries go across accounts.

01:33:22   That it won't be mandatory because, you know, again, my daughter doesn't want to share her

01:33:26   pictures with us and that's fine, but my wife and I would like to be able to share our pictures.

01:33:30   And right now you kind of can't because to be logged into some things on your iPhone,

01:33:34   you can't be logged into other things. You can't really use two IDs for everything.

01:33:38   So, you know, we can't do that right now. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna predict that also

01:33:42   because I feel like although it's work, it's, there's a lot of behind the scenes work that's

01:33:46   already been done. Whereas a new file system and a full iTunes rewriter, such huge projects that

01:33:51   I'm also gonna think that maybe this is a thing we're already watching it happen. And it'll just,

01:33:55   it'll, it'll tick that box as it moves forward with the iCloud family stuff. Cause they,

01:34:00   I hope on the file system is that they have been working on it for years already.

01:34:04   Yeah, that's true.

01:34:05   Many, many years.

01:34:06   Well, maybe so.

01:34:07   Maybe we'll get all of them at WWDC in June, right?

01:34:10   Sure.

01:34:11   No, not this year.

01:34:12   And I thought, like, iCloud Photo Library, like, I was saying, like, it is just a big

01:34:16   improvement.

01:34:17   It used to be that you had to designate which computer was the iPhoto computer.

01:34:21   Remember those days?

01:34:22   Oh, yeah.

01:34:23   Like, oh, Mom's computer is the iPhoto computer?

01:34:24   Now we've made such an improvement, now you designate which Apple ID is the photo's Apple

01:34:29   ID.

01:34:30   is actually a really big improvement, because at least it's portable with the Apple ID and

01:34:34   not tied to a piece of hardware or anything like that.

01:34:37   But yeah, when I think about how it should work with families, it's not obvious what

01:34:42   is the best interface.

01:34:43   We all see the need.

01:34:45   I don't want to do the current dance that I do to try to somehow bring over the pictures

01:34:48   that I take on my phone to get them into the family photo library, which uses my wife's

01:34:52   Apple ID and everything.

01:34:54   But full sharing of everything is also the wrong answer.

01:34:59   And how do you present an interface that so people don't get confused about where the

01:35:01   heck their photos are?

01:35:02   It's actually, it's a pretty hard problem, but it is a very pressing need.

01:35:06   Yeah, I just, the iCloud family stuff was introduced only last year.

01:35:12   So I feel like there's going to be that year two of now we're going to do this, but you

01:35:18   know, that is also, I got to, I'm doing a lot of wish casting when I say that too, because

01:35:22   I really want those features to be there and they may not be there.

01:35:25   listener Mahir wrote in to say "What is your most played song in iTunes?" and

01:35:30   give us the reported play count. I will go first. Modern Love by Matt Nathanson

01:35:36   is the number one on my iTunes. It says I have 214 plays of that, but records are

01:35:42   spotty, you know, that doesn't cover... until iTunes match started syncing plays

01:35:46   across devices, you know, I would delete things and add things and listen on

01:35:50   different computers and none of it would stay in sync. Now it all stays in sync,

01:35:53   but that really is only so for the last year and a half. I did used to do audio

01:35:59   Scrobbler to last FM, so I went there and I haven't done that in two years, but

01:36:03   there were several years where everything I played on my Mac at work

01:36:05   especially got Scrobbled to last FM, and I looked it up and the most played

01:36:11   track there was "Let Go" by FruFru. Also 214 plays, which I find just kind of

01:36:17   peculiar. So those are mine.

01:36:19   What about you, Jon?

01:36:20   Yeah, I just want to reiterate my lack of faith in the play counts.

01:36:25   Because first of all, they all seem way too low.

01:36:28   Second of all, I'm not even sure—I do subscribe to iTunes Match, and I have since the beginning—but

01:36:31   I'm not even sure that they're really syncing the way that they should be.

01:36:36   And third of all, like I said, the numbers just look weird and inexplicable, and just

01:36:40   all way too low.

01:36:41   So I've been listening to iTunes since iTunes existed, since it was on, you know, classic

01:36:45   Mac OS, but surely these play counts don't account for that.

01:36:48   So I have no idea what range these play counts are in.

01:36:51   But anyway, my number one is REM's Perfect Circle for Murmur.

01:36:55   Play count is 321.

01:36:57   All right.

01:36:59   Yeah, I love play counts, actually.

01:37:03   And it's funny, I don't pay attention to them much anymore, because for so long they were

01:37:06   irrelevant, because they didn't cover my iPod plays, and they didn't cover the different

01:37:11   Macs and they wouldn't sync, and then I'd remove something from my library for some

01:37:14   reason, and then bring it back and the play counts would be gone.

01:37:17   But since they did iTunes Match, Apple has actually synced play counts with all your

01:37:24   devices, apparently.

01:37:25   So yeah, I mean, my number three is down to double digits already.

01:37:30   So these can't be right.

01:37:31   Wow.

01:37:32   Yeah, that can't be right.

01:37:33   I have a whole bunch of things in the upper 100s.

01:37:39   So yeah, I don't know.

01:37:43   It turns out there's a song that I play—this is something I have in common with Merlin,

01:37:46   A song I play when I'm in a certain mood, especially at the beginning of the day.

01:37:51   It's kind of a dark or angry mood.

01:37:54   I play "Something I Learned Today" by Husker Du, and it's got 113 plays.

01:37:59   So that's how many times I've been in that mood lately.

01:38:04   It's in the top 20, anyway.

01:38:05   It's not in the top 10, but it's in the top 20.

01:38:08   Yeah, the other complication is playing songs in the car for kids, because my number two

01:38:13   is "Let It Go From Frozen."

01:38:14   Of course it is!

01:38:15   Yeah.

01:38:16   Of course, I also listen to it myself. I'm not going to put all those plays on my kids.

01:38:20   I like that song. I do listen to it in the car, but a lot of those are job-related.

01:38:24   Sure. A listener, Rob, wrote in to say, "Do you think Amazon is working on an Amazon video

01:38:31   app for the Apple TV?" And Rob would like to watch Doctor Who again, which is, Doctor

01:38:35   Who is moving to Amazon as an exclusive, the new series of Doctor Who. Myke and I talked

01:38:41   about this a lot. What do you think? What's Amazon's strategy here? Do they want their

01:38:46   They're on iOS.

01:38:47   Do they want to be on Apple TV?

01:38:48   Do they want to sabotage Apple TV?

01:38:51   What's going on?

01:38:52   >> I try to handicap this.

01:38:55   I try to think about how many people are like us and how many people are more like a single

01:39:01   box household.

01:39:02   Because my experience of television for the past many years has been, "Let's see all of

01:39:08   the various applications on my various boxes compete against each other."

01:39:12   Who has the best Netflix client?

01:39:13   who has the best Amazon Video client, right?

01:39:16   I mean, because down to my TV, my TV can play Netflix, my TV can play Amazon Video, so can

01:39:22   my TiVo, so can my Apple TV, so can my PlayStation, so can my Wii.

01:39:27   And I'm just picking among them, and they change, like who's got a good app this week

01:39:30   or whatever, but at no point am I like, "I really wish I could watch Amazon Video, but

01:39:34   unfortunately I don't have a box that can play it.

01:39:37   I have like seven boxes that can play it."

01:39:38   And am I the aberration?

01:39:40   Because I have a million boxes connected to my TV, and most people can't support that

01:39:42   because it's ridiculous and most people just have like one thing like they just have their

01:39:46   cable box maybe and then maybe one other thing and that they're somehow being stopped from

01:39:51   watching Amazon I guess that I mean maybe that's more common than what I have but it

01:39:55   just seems ridiculous to me that Amazon would withhold their application from Apple TV for

01:40:01   any reason other than spite because it seems like yeah it's pointless you're not I don't

01:40:06   think they're selling more fire TVs because of it people because those people who have

01:40:10   only one box? They have only one box because they don't want to have a million boxes. And

01:40:14   you know, they're just going to live without it then. And it's stupid. Amazon, if they're

01:40:18   going to be a content company, if they're going to pay to have Man in the High Castle

01:40:22   made and pay all this money for the new Top Gear, the show from the old people that did

01:40:25   Top Gear or whatever, you got to get your show out to as many people as possible. I

01:40:28   mean, even Apple made iTunes for Windows. You can't be like that. If you're going to

01:40:33   produce content, you need to get it everywhere, like Netflix. Netflix was like, "Do you have

01:40:37   a box that an electric cable goes into, we want a Netflix client on it. They want it

01:40:42   everywhere. That's the right strategy, and I think eventually Amazon will see that. So

01:40:46   I would predict that Amazon will eventually be on Apple TV.

01:40:49   Steven: I think they're working on it. They're on iOS. Of course they'll be there eventually.

01:40:54   Maybe there's some politics around when they go, but I think it's going to happen. I think

01:40:58   it's inevitable.

01:40:59   Steven, off-screen Yeah, if it is spite, it's stupid.

01:41:01   Yeah, oh, agreed completely.

01:41:03   That's a terrible reason.

01:41:04   Uh, listener Lucas has our final question today, which is what topics can you

01:41:10   only discuss when Myke is not around?

01:41:13   Pizza, please.

01:41:14   Pizza.

01:41:15   Definitely.

01:41:16   Um, let's see what else pens are dumb.

01:41:19   I don't like pens and, uh, Myke was wrong.

01:41:23   Uh, big phones, the iPhone six plus is no good.

01:41:26   The iPhone six asks forever until the next iPhone.

01:41:30   That's not huge.

01:41:31   Any other terrible things we could say? Well, USA. USA. We can do that.

01:41:37   Well, Myke is not around. I don't know. I feel like you could talk about most of these things with him.

01:41:43   It's true.

01:41:44   I don't know if there's anything you can't-- It would probably be something that he's not interested in.

01:41:47   Is there anything that you're interested in that he would just roll his eyes and be bored and have nothing to say about?

01:41:52   Well, we talked about boxes that you attach to a television to watch things. He's totally not interested in that.

01:41:57   What about baseball?

01:41:58   baseball. Oh yeah, yeah, but you're not that interested in baseball either. I know, but

01:42:02   for you, what could you talk about? If you had someone on who was really into baseball,

01:42:06   you're not going to have these deep conversations with baseball with Myke. Honestly, the iPhone

01:42:10   6 and 6S Plus, that's a thing that I can't really have when he's around, because he just

01:42:15   won't stop talking about how he's right. And I just don't agree, I don't like that big

01:42:21   phone. I mean, it's not a right or wrong, as you pointed out, it's personal preference.

01:42:25   personal preference does not match his. But yes, baseball—we had a great question last

01:42:29   week about sports, or as they say in England, "sport."

01:42:33   They only have one there. They have lots of maths, though. Lots of maths, only one sport.

01:42:39   It's an interesting dynamic.

01:42:40   They have a real cardinality problem over there.

01:42:43   Yeah, they have priorities. They've got more math and less sports, and we went the other

01:42:47   way, so that's sort of our cross to bear, I think. But he didn't even have a point when

01:42:53   he was 10 where he had a David Beckham poster on the wall. He's just never been interested

01:42:57   in it, which is fine. Lots of computer nerds, lots of people in our culture are like that.

01:43:04   I'm not one of them, but there are a lot of people out there who just didn't ever do.

01:43:07   He said, "Don't play it, not interested in it." And I said, "Well, I don't play it."

01:43:10   I played basketball in the eighth grade. I was on our team, seventh and eighth grade

01:43:15   basketball. That was my last venture into organized sports, but I still like sports,

01:43:20   even though I can't play them. I don't know. Things about how England--well, even insulting

01:43:26   England I could probably do around Myke, because his accent keeps drifting closer and closer

01:43:30   to the United States.

01:43:31   Yeah, yeah. We'll change him yet.

01:43:34   Yeah, we'll reform him. He did refer to sports last week, and not sport, which I felt was

01:43:41   an ultimate betrayal to all of our British listeners who should find him.

01:43:45   He can't help it. I was trying to say, it's like when you have a conversation with somebody

01:43:49   who, you know, you say "gif" and they say "jif," and it's like a battle of wills to

01:43:53   see during the conversation. The conversation is not about that. You're just talking like

01:43:57   at work about something. This happened more when we actually used to use gifs on the internet,

01:44:01   right? But you were just discussing something, and it is almost impossible to have an ongoing

01:44:06   conversation over the course of a week with two people who say it differently. One will

01:44:09   break, and when talking to the other person, conform to their way of saying things. And

01:44:15   So it's your job to hold strong with the American pronunciations and everything, and eventually

01:44:19   he'll break.

01:44:20   Yeah, it's Jeff, by the way.

01:44:23   This episode of Upgrade, brought to you by Casper, Squarespace, and MailRoute.

01:44:28   Thank you to our sponsors.

01:44:29   You can reach me at Jason L. Myke is imike on Twitter.

01:44:31   Of course, our guest John Siracusa is Siracusa on Twitter, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Siracusa.

01:44:38   And you can reach him at ATP.fm for Accidental Tech Podcast.

01:44:41   and of course at Real FM he has "Reconsidable Differences" with Merlin Mann. And at TheIncomparable.com,

01:44:47   not only can you find many episodes with Jon, but of course Jon and I do "Robot or Not"

01:44:51   there. Every week we talk about why something is not a robot, usually. Jon, thanks for being

01:44:58   on Upgrade. I appreciate it.

01:44:59   Jon Sorrentino No problem, Jason. Anytime.

01:45:00   Thanks everybody out there for listening. We will see you next week and Myke will be back in the UK. Bye!

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