0:00:00[Music]
0:00:08From relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode number 71. Today's show is brought to you by MailRoute and Fizzle.
0:00:15My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Mr Jason Snow.
0:00:19Hello Mr Myke Hurley, how are you?
0:00:20I'm very well sir, how are you?
0:00:22Doing, uh, doing fine. It's a, uh, it's a, it's a Monday morning here in San Francisco as always.
0:00:28It's a dark Monday evening here in London, as always.
0:00:31This is our Monday, this is our kickoff.
0:00:33People listen anytime they want, but for us, this is how the--for me, this is how the week
0:00:37gets started, which is exciting.
0:00:39It focuses the mind.
0:00:42Upgrade your mind.
0:00:43We don't have a lot of follow-up this week because it's been completely dominated by
0:00:47Muffin Gate.
0:00:48We have a lot of muffin-related follow-up.
0:00:51It was funny when I was going through the Ask Upgrade questions for this week.
0:00:54I said, "There's not a lot of Ask Upgrade," because it was all muffin-related.
0:00:57There was no, there were very few actual questions like usual. It's all just muffins.
0:01:02I want to just say, so I'll put a couple of tweets in the show notes.
0:01:05Some people eat in muffins, some people showing us them in supermarkets.
0:01:10I think this is one of those things where the United States of America has twisted my understanding of my own country.
0:01:18Because it seems that everybody else knows what a muffin is and everybody else thinks of muffins as these.
0:01:24I maintain that the average person on the street in the United Kingdom, if you say to them, "What's a muffin?"
0:01:30They would say, "The chocolate chip muffin kind." Right? I- I- I- that's just how I feel. That's how I feel.
0:01:37But what has been proven to me is that muffins run rife in this fair land.
0:01:42And they are the Egg McMuffin kind.
0:01:45Have you seen the muffin top episode of Seinfeld yet?
0:01:48No, not yet.
0:01:49Oh, that's- that's- that's the American kind of muffins.
0:01:52Yeah, because that's what I think of. Chocolate chip muffins, blueberry muffins.
0:01:57Yep. But it turns out what we in America call the English muffin is indeed what people in
0:02:05Britain call muffins. And we actually had several people take pictures of muffins in
0:02:10stores to assure us that they are, as Wikipedia said, available in every store.
0:02:14I still say that that is incorrect. There are people that have contacted us and they
0:02:18are basically stating that fact, I still say that that is statistically an incorrect fact.
0:02:24We don't have any evidence, we haven't received photos from all the stores.
0:02:26That's what I want now, okay? People of the UK, I want photos in all of the stores.
0:02:34All the great stores. So yes, but they're apparently a kind of muffin, are these little
0:02:40flat things that are not quite crumpets, but apparently based on crumpets and baked.
0:02:48Well, crumpets are thicker and more spongy.
0:02:51Yeah. Yeah. That's, that sounds like it. And that's what we in America call the English
0:02:56muffin, and those are widely available in the United States. And that's what I have
0:03:00for breakfast many mornings, is the English muffin. So the answer is, yes, English muffins
0:03:05are available in England and they're called muffins, but it's a bit confusing because
0:03:11you have other things that you also call muffins that are what we call muffins here.
0:03:16And they're not called like America muffins or anything like that.
0:03:20No. And the Egg McMuffin came up, which I thought was like a good precedent that neither
0:03:24of us failed to set. I've eaten food at McDonald's. I don't know how long it's been since I've
0:03:30eaten food at a McDonald's. So it just doesn't come up. But yes, Egg McMuffin is a McDonald's
0:03:37meal where it's what, an egg and ham? And it's inside a...
0:03:43I think it's sausage meat.
0:03:44No, or sausage, something like that. And it's egg and meat, and then it's in between the
0:03:50sides of the English muffin.
0:03:53So the funny thing is, like even in the McDonald's here, you can get an Egg McMuffin and a muffin,
0:03:58they're both called the same thing, they're both muffins. I feel like I need to add muffins
0:04:02to my shopping list now to eat for breakfast just so I can fully indoctrinate myself in
0:04:06something that everybody else seems to know so much about.
0:04:10Yeah, you toasted. I'm surprised that we didn't get more commentary on the fact that I said
0:04:14that I toasted and put peanut butter and jelly on it.
0:04:16Why is that bad?
0:04:18Because nothing, well, nothing makes the internet judge you more than when you express a preference
0:04:22for food and especially, I've learned because peanut butter is my favorite food that lots
0:04:28of parts of the world consider peanut butter a monstrous invention and so I rarely can
0:04:33mention peanut butter on Twitter without somebody complaining that peanut butter is a horrible
0:04:38thing and why would anybody eat it.
0:04:40Because it's poison.
0:04:43I'm still standing, Myke.
0:04:45Poison for me.
0:04:46It makes me stronger.
0:04:48A peanut butter muffin, Jason, would kill me dead.
0:04:51Oh, it's so good.
0:04:53Sometimes I just have the peanut butter on it.
0:04:55Yeah, I would die, I think.
0:04:57So it's the best with some tea. So anyway, that's sometimes my breakfast. Not always.
0:05:03Sometimes it's a yogurt. Sometimes it's cereal. I had cereal this morning. I'm not big into
0:05:06cereal, but I had no English muffins this morning. So cereal it was. The cat loves it
0:05:12when I have cereal because I let the cat have the milk at the bottom of the bowl.
0:05:15Oh man, that's the best part of the cereal. You must love your cat.
0:05:19Yeah, I decided that I wasn't getting enjoyment out of it and that I thought that the cat
0:05:23might and it turns out now the cat like when I come back without the cereal bowl
0:05:27he is you could I pay attention he is notably paying attention to me and then
0:05:34is sad or at least stops paying attention to me and when I bring the
0:05:38cereal bowl back he he keep he plays it cool for a while and then eventually he
0:05:43like stands up and moves closer to me and sits like sits upright on the bed
0:05:47looking at me and I think oh yeah here we are gotta wait for it I'm not gonna
0:05:52rush myself here, Kat. But anyway, hopefully we'll get some new English muffins in and
0:05:58then I can go back to that for my breakfast. I also mentioned in passing, sort of jokingly,
0:06:03the Australian toaster biscuit, which was hilarious because I got a whole bunch of Australians
0:06:08who are very upset because they have no idea what an Australian toaster biscuit is. So
0:06:13we'll put a link in the show notes. It was a product made by a company called Oroweat
0:06:19in the United States marketed as the Australian toaster biscuit. I suspect it's kind of like
0:06:23a crumpet. We did buy them. They're softer and butterier and spongier than English muffins.
0:06:33They're no longer sold. They died. They had their ad campaign. The link in the show notes
0:06:38will have an amusing TV commercial for them. But what I need to explain to Australians
0:06:44is that they – Australia, you don't understand. Americans consider anything Australian to
0:06:50be exotic. Basically, you can slap a koala on some shampoo and it is now just magical
0:06:56Aussie shampoo. Crazy. Put a boomerang and a didgeridoo on a mediocre steak restaurant
0:07:03and now it's very exciting. These are things that we do in America. So just know that we
0:07:08We call lots of things Australian for no good reason because it's just exotic and exciting
0:07:15to have things that are Australian in the United States.
0:07:17Don't ask me why.
0:07:18I don't understand it.
0:07:19Usually the reaction to foreign things in the United States tends to be to recoil and
0:07:24run away but not Australian things.
0:07:28No you put that koala on something or a kangaroo, it's over.
0:07:36You gotta understand that, and that's the story of the Australian toaster biscuit. They're
0:07:39crumpets, and then aren't made anymore, and they weren't Australian. Or perhaps they were,
0:07:44because somebody went to Australia and had a crumpet and said, "This is brilliant," and
0:07:47brought it back and said, "We've gotta stick a koala on this." But anyway, that's the answer.
0:07:54Sorry Australia, we stole things that weren't yours and called them yours, and that's what
0:07:59we do.
0:08:00In other important technology news, in our recent Twitter corner that we've had, there
0:08:09was some news that came out just after last week's show that Twitter is considering a
0:08:1310,000 character limit for tweets.
0:08:16The implementation of this currently is a little bit up in the air, like what people
0:08:20believe it's going to be.
0:08:21Yeah, and that's a key.
0:08:22Yeah, exactly.
0:08:23But I think the general consensus will be that it will be the original tweet and then
0:08:29the ability to have a longer text or it cuts off off the 140 characters you have to click
0:08:35to see more. So this is kind of something in the realm of what we've been asking for
0:08:42recently in that it is proof of advancement of the platform right?
0:08:47Yeah and it actually feels very much like a lot of the features that Twitter has added
0:08:51which are trying to get see how people are using the service and add features that that
0:08:59fit with that because, you know, @mentions and hashtags, there's so many things and retweets.
0:09:06These are all things that were invented by users and then eventually supported by the
0:09:09platform.
0:09:10And although I saw a lot of people saying, "Oh no, Twitter, this is a disaster.
0:09:15You should never allow more than 140 characters."
0:09:18The fact is that users are already bypassing 140 characters by doing text shots, by posting
0:09:24images of text.
0:09:27And so obviously people want to attach more text to a tweet, and they're doing it in a
0:09:33really bad way because images can't be indexed, they can't be searched, they can't be read
0:09:37by a screen reader if you're somebody who has to rely on a screen reader in order to
0:09:42read things.
0:09:43There are lots of reasons why you would want it as real text and not images.
0:09:46So you know, obviously the users want this feature.
0:09:50>> So I think that the devil is in the details in how this is implemented because there are
0:09:55are many ways that you could do nasty things or peculiar things in this. Like for example,
0:10:01you could write a tweet and then have like 10,000 characters of @mentions.
0:10:06Yeah, making it easier for people to spam things. I think, I mean I should mention also
0:10:12that I wrote a piece on Six Colors about Notes app on the iPhone because this is, it turns
0:10:18out, you can't unsee it once you hear this, but it is the most popular way for people
0:10:22to do text shots on Twitter.
0:10:24And especially when I--
0:10:25- That's what I'm on Instagram.
0:10:26- Yeah, yeah, see, so it's, and I noticed it a lot for football players, college football
0:10:33players in the US when they commit to go to the NFL draft or when they're high school
0:10:38players and they're committing to college or things like that.
0:10:40A lot of athlete announcements are done this way where they take screenshots.
0:10:43- I see what you're saying.
0:10:44- They write a note in notes.app and take screenshots of it and then they post that
0:10:47to Twitter.
0:10:48It's a thing.
0:10:49And then I wrote about this and not four hours later Jack Dorsey posted his thing about how
0:10:54Twitter was considering this and his was a screenshot from Notes.
0:10:58Which was fantastic, I thought.
0:10:59I loved that he actually commented on it, right?
0:11:03And basically just saying, "Look, this is where we started.
0:11:05We started with it because it was a restriction.
0:11:09We loved it, like the 140 characters, but the idea of what people are doing right now
0:11:14with these screenshots, like what he's doing, it's not optimal, you know, it can't be searched
0:11:18or anything like that."
0:11:19They want to evolve the product, they're going to make sure they stay true to the core of
0:11:23it, but they want to add more features.
0:11:25And I think it's great, and what I really love is that they say we're going to tell
0:11:29developers well in advance so they can prepare accordingly.
0:11:31Yeah, yeah, that was an interesting little tip of the cap to what we were talking about
0:11:36next week, about working with developers on this.
0:11:39I'm going to guess that the way they're going to do this, a lot of people just assumed it
0:11:43means your tweets are going to be 10,000 characters in length, but I'm going to guess that one
0:11:47of two things is going to happen here.
0:11:49you will still have a hundred and forty characters for your tweet, but you'll be able to add a text attachment or a read more
0:11:55Back in blogging like for if you're using Mars editor or something and you know a lot of blogging systems have like the extended entry field
0:12:03Which is essentially you know more of on this after the jump kind of things in the old blog days, right?
0:12:08It'll be something like that where basically you can write a tweet
0:12:12But you can also attach
0:12:13text and that text can be up to 10,000 characters and it shows as a preview that there's more
0:12:19text and you have to click to read more or they may just do it where above 140 characters
0:12:24you get a warning that it's going to be truncated which is like some of those services like
0:12:29Twitlonger do that where and I actually don't like that as much because what you end up
0:12:34with is people crafting, they don't craft the first 140.
0:12:39They just don't pay attention.
0:12:41And they basically say, you know, "Too bad for you.
0:12:43If you want to know what this sentence says, click on this link to go to this other service."
0:12:47And I hate that.
0:12:48So I would rather that Twitter give you a hard limit at 140 and then have this, you
0:12:54know, "say more" kind of text attachment.
0:12:57And that way, when you're in a Twitter client, whether it's the official Twitter stuff or
0:13:02it's a third-party client, what you'll see is just like with a photo attachment or something
0:13:05like that, you'll see that there's an attachment to this tweet.
0:13:08then you'll need to tap to read more instead of having somebody's tweet flood your timeline.
0:13:14I think that's the way to do it. I think that would be good because the fact is people use
0:13:19Twitter this way already. Some people, not everybody, not everybody does anything on
0:13:24Twitter. Everybody uses the service different, but this is clearly a need where people want
0:13:28to express more information on Twitter and they don't want to do it with a tweet storm.
0:13:32And I don't really love tweet storms either because then that does fill my timeline with
0:13:36with 14 tweets from somebody. I think this is a good combination where the spirit of
0:13:42Twitter still exists because the main tweet is 140 characters and then you have the ability
0:13:47to express yourself in a way that is searchable and readable by screen readers, indexable
0:13:52in all sorts of ways. I think that's a better way to do it.
0:13:56I think this would be great if they implemented it in that way, right? Like the idea of you
0:14:02write like a title it would be and then you could add the rest but like you just
0:14:07know that like they're in two different fields even right so you get your 140
0:14:11characters then you get your 10,000 characters and when they come up in a
0:14:14little time in a timeline there's a little button that you press and you can
0:14:17see more I think that that would be quite nice I wouldn't object to that at
0:14:21all yeah I think I think that's the way to do it and we'll see how people use it
0:14:29it, right? Because that'll be interesting too, is like style-wise, how do people use
0:14:33this? Do they just say, "Hey, check out this thing I wrote," or do they write a headline,
0:14:36or do they say, you know, "I had some thoughts about this thing that just happened and here
0:14:40they are," and then attach it. It'll be interesting to see how that would evolve too if they do
0:14:44this. But I think it's a good move because the text shot thing, it's just, it's a thing.
0:14:49It's a real thing where people are trying to... Sometimes they're quoting other sites,
0:14:53and that's problematic but not as problematic, but sometimes they are literally just writing
0:14:57things and putting them on Twitter. And although I am not a big advocate of that, I'm somebody
0:15:07who has a lot of different outlets where I can express myself without putting it on Twitter
0:15:13at length, but not everybody does. And I think you're seeing a group of people who want to
0:15:20do this and use the service this way. And I think it would be a mistake to do what I
0:15:26I see some people do on Twitter and say, "Well, I don't want to do that." So they
0:15:29shouldn't let people do that because I think Twitter is at its best when it
0:15:32looks at how some of its users are using the service and says, "Oh yeah, we should
0:15:35probably support that natively." And that's what they're doing.
0:15:37Do you know what this feels like? This feels like an old-school Twitter move and you know who's back?
0:15:41Jack.
0:15:42Mm-hmm. Yep.
0:15:44I think this is great. This is exactly what we're looking for. I think this could be done really well.
0:15:48I'd be really interested to see if any, like, websites or bloggers just post their entire articles.
0:15:55Yeah, I was seeing this argument about Medium today. There was a discussion about Medium
0:16:02and I'm not sure whether it was just happenstance or whether they were seeing each other's posts,
0:16:06but it was a bunch of people talking about Medium. And one of the arguments was, you
0:16:10know, why would I not set up my own blog and post something on Medium? You know, Medium
0:16:15is not my site. I don't own Medium. You know, I don't get the benefits of it. And there
0:16:19was an argument that Medium provides you with exposure, but I think the question is, well,
0:16:24the web is accessible from everywhere. So is posting on Medium good just because there's
0:16:28enough of a social network on Medium where people are looking on Medium to find things
0:16:32to read? I don't use Medium that way. I don't know many, any people who do. But maybe, but
0:16:41this is an interesting approach for some people where it's like they're not even going to
0:16:45have, they have no, a lot of people have no place to post things. They don't. They're
0:16:49not bloggers. The place where they get their thoughts out on the internet is Twitter or
0:16:53Facebook or Twitter and Facebook and so give it give them a space to do this
0:17:00does it it turns a microblog platform which is what Twitter was always sort of
0:17:05called into a blogging platform in a way and while I would not choose to have my
0:17:10blog be Twitter because again it's not my service they have the content what if
0:17:16something happens in the content gets wiped out you know it's it's for me I
0:17:20I would be hesitant there, but I'm a bad example here, right?
0:17:25The good example is all these people who are trying to get their expressions out
0:17:28to the widest possible audience and their widest audience is on Twitter and they have no other way to do it.
0:17:35Let them express themselves. In fact, they're doing it already just in a bad way. Let them do it in a good way.
0:17:40Let them do it in a better way where it's not gonna clog up everybody's timelines because there's gonna be a way to put it in
0:17:45there as an attachment,
0:17:46But to let them do it and just embrace the fact that this is a way people want to use Twitter if I'm at Twitter
0:17:52I like to find ways that people like Twitter and encourage them to continue to use it that way
0:17:57But it's like oh, yeah, you you all of you future millionaire
0:18:01Athletes want to use Twitter to announce what you're doing. We're gonna make that even easier for you
0:18:06You're not gonna have to use the Apple Notes app anymore
0:18:08It's like it for me if I wanted to post something somewhere
0:18:12I would want to post it on Twitter rather than Medium if I was going to post something
0:18:16like this somewhere because Twitter for me feels more like my home on the internet than
0:18:21Medium does. Like, it's where I talk, it's where I go.
0:18:27You have more followers on Twitter than on Medium, right? That's the reality of it,
0:18:32is most people have more followers on Twitter than Medium. Because who has followers on
0:18:37on Medium, unless you're one of these brands that's posting on Medium, and even then,
0:18:43are people really checking their Medium list, or are they checking Twitter?
0:18:47For the posts that people link to on Medium, you're on Twitter to find links that people
0:18:52send to Medium and other places. One last thing I find quite interesting about this
0:18:57is Ev Williams, CEO of Medium, is on the Twitter board. And this is clearly a shot at Medium.
0:19:04I think so, although who knows?
0:19:06there's a... And the Notes app. Yeah, and then we're coming for you Notes.app. I don't know,
0:19:13it depends on how they do it too, because do they style it kind of not particularly
0:19:18styled? Do they create something that's more kind of medium-like? Do they provide like
0:19:21an API so that blogging services can, you know, feed the text of a post into a text
0:19:27attachment on Twitter so that you could post it at medium and say attach this to Twitter?
0:19:32I don't know what the details are there, but I look at it and think that, you know, if
0:19:40Medium is trying to give people a place to post, and it's pretty and it's got a nice
0:19:43CMS and all of that, yeah, Twitter is a great place for people to post things instead of
0:19:49something like Medium, if they just need a place to put their text.
0:19:52I think it's clear something's happening, and we'll keep our eye on it, because, you
0:19:56know, Jack has basically said they're looking at it, which probably means it's happening.
0:20:01ends the Twitter vertical for this week.
0:20:03Should we thank our sponsor?
0:20:06I think that's a good idea.
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0:22:10week's episode of Upgrade.
0:22:12I'm so happy the mail bagging is back.
0:22:15It's back.
0:22:16Alright, do you want to know something that's not back, something that's going away?
0:22:21I don't, but I know you're going to tell me.
0:22:23The 3.5mm headphone jack.
0:22:25This has been rumbling around for about a month or so.
0:22:31We'd originally planned to talk about it a while ago, but decided not to because Jason
0:22:34got really mad.
0:22:36Yeah.
0:22:37I believe what I said is these rumors are too early, and there's no point in me getting
0:22:42really angry about something that Apple hasn't done. And that may happen today too, but it
0:22:49feels like there's at least more evidence that this may happen. The rumblings are confirming
0:22:57rather than denying that this might happen, so it's probably worth talking about.
0:23:03So, in the last week there's been a bunch of stories, but I guess the most interesting
0:23:07one is one posted over Fast Company. And the Fast Company article to many people, and I
0:23:14think I feel this way too, feels like one of those anonymous sources inside of Apple
0:23:20articles. It's very much along the lines of like, "This is gonna happen. We had a person
0:23:26say it." And...
0:23:28It doesn't feel like an Apple source to me. It feels like a Cirrus Logic source to me.
0:23:34That's the company prominently named in this story by Mark Sullivan, who I, disclaimer,
0:23:39I worked with Mark, he was an editor at PC World.
0:23:43But that's what it struck me, is that this wasn't necessarily an Apple source, this was
0:23:46a partner source.
0:23:47Okay.
0:23:48Because Apple tends to leak from the supply chain and from partners.
0:23:51Well, there's someone is leaking it somewhere.
0:23:55But anyway, there's no smoke about fire and this one really feels like it's heating up.
0:24:00the idea in case you're unaware or would like a summary is that for the iPhone 7 that it
0:24:06will be slimmer and one of the ways that they're going to make it slimmer is by removing the
0:24:093.5mm headphone jack because it's one of the components that Apple has the least control
0:24:14over and is one of the wider components on the phone and on the inside of the phone as
0:24:19well it's like a little box that goes around the circular port which is taking up a lot
0:24:24of space inside. So one of the ways that they're able to get rid of this and make the well
0:24:28Well one of the ways to make the phone get thinner is to get rid of that port.
0:24:34So if they do this it will obviously cause some issues in that basically every set of
0:24:39headphones you or anybody else on the planet owns will not work with your iPhone unless
0:24:44it is bluetooth or what is starting to happen now, lightning.
0:24:49And so this is kind of where we're at right now and there's many things to discuss.
0:24:53But Jason, I want to ask you first and foremost, do you think this is going to happen?
0:24:58JASON HARRIS I would say I think it's increasingly likely,
0:25:03but I don't think that the reports we've seen so far are quite strong enough for me
0:25:11to be completely resigned to it yet.
0:25:14I feel like, um, the-- although there was, I think, did 9to5-- I'm not sure if 9to5Mac
0:25:21has done a story that it's gone.
0:25:26They've heard that there's going to be cord-free beats with charging cases and stuff like that
0:25:33ahead of the iPhone 7.
0:25:35Which is an interesting story in its own right in terms of that it's really cord-free, which
0:25:39is one of my big complaints about wireless headphones.
0:25:41But we'll get there.
0:25:43I'd say that again, it is a possibility.
0:25:48I don't feel like super confident about it.
0:25:51The Fast Company report, although it cites specific sources,
0:25:54it cites specific sources saying
0:25:55that there's no headphone jack
0:25:57and there's wireless charging and it's waterproof,
0:26:00which is a lot of detail and it could all be true,
0:26:05but I remain a little bit skeptical of it.
0:26:08There are some sources that are cited in that story
0:26:12that are not quite right,
0:26:14which decreases my confidence a little bit.
0:26:17You know, it's another log on the fire here, but I feel like it's not enough to tick me
0:26:27over into, "Yeah, that's probably happening."
0:26:29Or at least not until it's certainly happening.
0:26:31I feel like it is gonna happen.
0:26:32Well, I think there's a good chance, because we have seen a lot of talk about this, and
0:26:39there hasn't been any kind of counter-argument saying, "No, no, no, that's not actually happening,"
0:26:45which oftentimes you would see, often I think from inside Apple leading out somewhere just
0:26:51to kind of downplay something that isn't going to happen, and we haven't seen anything like
0:26:55that either. So, you know, I think I'd say it's more likely than not, but I don't feel
0:27:00like complete confidence that it's definitely going to happen yet.
0:27:03>> Because one of the things that I think about when looking at this is, and I know
0:27:07you don't like this logic, it's going to happen eventually. The 3.5 million--
0:27:13The sun will expand and swallow the earth eventually too.
0:27:15On an infinite timescale, Jason.
0:27:17But the 3.5mm jack is one of kind of the last bastions to fall.
0:27:22It is an older technology and it's just, nothing's happened to it.
0:27:26It hasn't really changed in many ways.
0:27:29It's kind of dumb, you know, in like the sense of smart and dumb that we have these days.
0:27:33It is kind of a dumb technology.
0:27:35You just plug your headphones into it and that's all it does.
0:27:38And it has to happen at some point that it will go away.
0:27:41It will be replaced.
0:27:42So to be fair, it does also carry your microphone signal and your remote control clicker.
0:27:49But all of that stuff is not like incredibly smart and it's been around like that for a
0:27:53very long time.
0:27:54Like that's been the exact same technology since the original iPhone.
0:27:56Sure.
0:27:57There isn't a lot of advancement in that field whilst everything else is advancing.
0:28:02So it has to go away at some point and be replaced.
0:28:06And I think that that time is—may as well be now as any other point.
0:28:12So this is my question for you is, okay, it's been around a long time.
0:28:17Something being around a long time is not in and of itself a reason to get rid of it.
0:28:22There needs to be something that is gained by it.
0:28:24I have really been amused—maybe not amused, maybe amused is not the right word—I've
0:28:30been interested to see how, once these reports started to come out, a lot of people who follow
0:28:34Apple and like Apple products have been saying essentially kill it with fire, we must destroy
0:28:39this port, it is old and must be destroyed. And this question of like why suddenly now
0:28:43is this thing that we've relied on and that is on every set of corded headphones that
0:28:47have essentially that have been made in the world except for a handful of weird headphones,
0:28:55why the sudden need to kill it? What… I don't feel like it has to die, like I don't
0:28:59like it must die but it's like if it's gonna then why not now like we have
0:29:04Bluetooth now Bluetooth headphones are getting better I just got my first pair
0:29:07of Bluetooth headphones and I really like that what I don't like is that they
0:29:10have to be charged right that that is frustrating because you could be out
0:29:13somewhere and they die I still get all sorts of stuttering issues with Bluetooth
0:29:18where things were and and that happened in iOS 8 happens in iOS 9 where things I
0:29:24don't know what it is things get out of sync I have to turn my headphones off
0:29:26and back on to get them to work right. Podcasts stutter, music stutters or stops and then
0:29:30stutters again. I've had it happen in my car the same way. It's like, I don't, I'm not
0:29:35entirely convinced that Bluetooth is reliable enough. It's better than it was. It's a lot
0:29:39better than it was. People who remember it from not syncing properly, having lag and
0:29:44stuff like that, they've, it still does actually have lag, but they built it into the OS. Like
0:29:49if you watch a video with Bluetooth headphones on iOS, it delays the video essentially so
0:29:54so that it syncs with the headphones and it works. It works quite well actually. I used
0:29:58that over the holiday when I was cooking. I had Bluetooth headphones in and iPad playing
0:30:03video worked great. So you know it's got issues. I'm not sure that Bluetooth, I think it's
0:30:08arguable that Bluetooth is good enough. It might be but it's arguable and yes now you
0:30:13need to charge your headphones. But then the other option is lightning headphones. And
0:30:19It's like, alright, you probably don't really gain a lot.
0:30:22I mean, I don't really know if you're gonna get any noticeable change in audio quality.
0:30:28But I think with Lightning headphones, it's just as the headphones as you know them just
0:30:32have a different port.
0:30:34And I really do feel like the majority of people that own iPhones use the headphones
0:30:41that come in the box.
0:30:44So let's set aside the EarPod users, because I agree with you.
0:30:48the majority of people use ear pods with the iPhone.
0:30:53I'm one of those people, like I've just got those Bluetooth ones, but up until then I
0:30:56just used my ear pods.
0:30:58Yeah, the majority of people I would say do that, even though Applebot Beats, which is
0:31:02an entire company whose business is predicated on the idea that they can build headphones
0:31:06with this plug and you can plug them in anywhere, and that is a sizable audience and those people
0:31:10spend money, but, and so that's what we need to talk about here, because I think you're
0:31:15In the premise that if you just use earpods and the earpods that come with your iPhone
0:31:20are lightning, then those people just don't care. It means that their fancy earpods won't
0:31:26plug into their laptop or any other device anywhere, but it does give them earpods that
0:31:32they can use on the iPhone, and so maybe it doesn't matter. But if you think about
0:31:37everybody else, there are so many issues about compatibility because all the old headphones
0:31:44are no longer compatible without a dongle. Any new headphones that get made that are lightning
0:31:48only work without products, so they're not repurposable the other direction,
0:31:52which is problematic. So you've got to buy an adapter. And I think that there are problems
0:31:59with that. I agree that that's just for the group of people who are using third-party headphones,
0:32:04but that's a lot of people. I don't think saying it's not going to bother EarPod users is a good
0:32:11enough argument because I will completely grant that it's not enough for them. But there is this
0:32:15whole market segment that is important. You know, Beats shows it. I think a lot of Apple users are
0:32:20people who care about third-party headphones. And you end up in the situation where, unlike some
0:32:27technology changes where it's painful and Apple does it early and then the world catches up and
0:32:34then eventually it's not painful anymore, this isn't a transition that everybody's making to
0:32:38lightning headphones because lightning is owned by Apple.
0:32:41Nobody else is going to do-- lightning headphones are not going to show up everywhere to the
0:32:45point where now everybody just uses lightning headphones.
0:32:48It's always going to be an Apple thing.
0:32:50And so then you invest in a pair of nice headphones and you either will always need an adapter
0:32:55for your iPhone if they're wired headphones or you will buy lightning headphones and never
0:33:00be able to use them on any other device that isn't an Apple device with a lightning port
0:33:04on it.
0:33:05I think that's problematic.
0:33:07It's not a deal breaker, right, because you can have adapters. It's just, it's not the
0:33:15same as a lot of other transitions where, you know, yes we got rid of Mac, ADB and serial
0:33:23and went to USB, but everybody went to USB so in the end the pain kind of went away.
0:33:28That's not the case here.
0:33:29It's a quick question for you, and we'll get back to this. What happens to Macs? Did I
0:33:35I get lightning bolts on them? Maybe? I don't know and the problem there too is
0:33:40that then so are you then forced to buy an adapter that has a mini jack on it so
0:33:44you can plug in some external speakers? If you're at a yeah yeah I mean if
0:33:49you're at a party with your iPhone and there's a speaker that you can plug into
0:33:54to play or in a conference room or something and you don't have your audio
0:33:57adapter with you you can't plug in your iPhone to the speaker system it's
0:34:02there's a lot of that but yeah the Mac I think that's a real question is
0:34:05what's happening with lightning and if Apple does this and puts lightning on
0:34:09the iPhone lightning is the only audio connector on the iPhone 7 also I have
0:34:14some questions about what that means for the future of lightning because that
0:34:19would seem to me to suggest that lightning will be around for a long time
0:34:22and it's weird because there's also USB C which Apple at least adopted with the
0:34:27with the the MacBook and it's very similar but not the same as lightning so
0:34:33So, how do they get along? Will you see a Macbook that's got Lightning and USB-C on
0:34:38it?
0:34:39I really don't see Apple mov- 'cause I've heard people mentioning this and considering
0:34:44this. I don't see Apple moving to USB-C on iOS devices. I just don't see it happening.
0:34:49They will be on Lightning for as long as USB-C is around, in my opinion.
0:34:53So do Macs get Lightning ports?
0:34:56I think that they do. I think that they do. If they're gonna start saying, like, the-
0:35:02Because it will mix the message, right?
0:35:04Because when they announce the iPhone 7, they will say that it's the best way to listen
0:35:08to music, is by using the lightning port or Bluetooth.
0:35:12So continuing to have headphone ports on Macs would be kind of weird, I think, in that regard.
0:35:17Or then you have to have like a 3.5mm jack and a lightning port and Bluetooth, right?
0:35:22That's the only way it works.
0:35:24When you think about the keyboard and the trackpad and the mouse all charging via lightning,
0:35:28those are all Mac products that charge via Lightning. You could argue that the writing
0:35:32is on the wall there, that Lightning is coming to the Mac because the peripherals already
0:35:36-- Mac peripherals already have Lightning ports on them.
0:35:39But you can't -- there aren't Lightning-to-Lightning connectors, are there?
0:35:42Not yet, but if there was a Lightning port on the Mac, there would be, right?
0:35:45Then they could -- I don't know if it could -- if it would work, but then you could just
0:35:48have Lightning ports in the plugs as well instead of USB.
0:35:51You could. You could. Or the answer could just be, look, it's USB, and we also sell
0:35:55an audio adapter for USB because USB and Thunderbolt will go out to audio. My audio actually doesn't
0:36:03come from my Mac because I've got this Thunderbolt hub. So the speaker on my desk is fed by the
0:36:09Thunderbolt hub, not from my Mac. So it's already using an adapter.
0:36:12>> Yeah, mine goes through USB as well because I use the pre-to and all my equipment.
0:36:18>> So I did want to mention while we're talking about this that why you make this change,
0:36:25I do think you have to ask the question, "What is gained?" And I think Apple is going to
0:36:29have to sell that. Apple is going to have to say, "Here's why we did it. Here's the benefit."
0:36:33Because if the benefit is, "Well, it's thinner, so we dumped it. Sorry, suckers. That's not
0:36:36good enough." They're going to sell this, right?
0:36:41There'll be some software features that they'll say couldn't have existed otherwise that we
0:36:46don't see yet.
0:36:47I saw some posts this last week where suddenly people were talking about noise cancelling
0:36:54regard to this move and I thought well that's interesting because that seems to
0:36:57have come out of nowhere and I wonder if that is the start of the Apple
0:37:02explanation campaign of like why would you do that but I think you need that I
0:37:07think you need the reasons why like like you said the headphone jack is dumb with
0:37:11something like a lightning connector you could add more stuff outboard you could
0:37:15you could you know because because lightning is configurable you could have
0:37:20have all sorts of things happen in those lightning devices that were smarter than
0:37:24standard headphones can really be with the headphone jack and maybe noise
0:37:28cancellation is part of that. I wonder if you could provide more power so that
0:37:32if you built hardware that needed more power for sensors or microphones or
0:37:36noise cancelling or something. I'm not sure if lightning can provide more power
0:37:39I would assume that it can. So there are probably reasons and Apple's going
0:37:44to need to make that case. Like here's why we did this and why you shouldn't be
0:37:48angry at us because you get benefits by switching to this.
0:37:52Hooray, we're providing all these good things for the user.
0:37:55What we will hear from some people who are already
0:38:00sort of defending this move that hasn't happened yet
0:38:02is stuff that's completely misinformed.
0:38:04And the one that really kills me is that,
0:38:06well, these will be a pure digital connection
0:38:07instead of the analog connection in the headphone jack.
0:38:10And that's completely wrong
0:38:13'cause headphones are fundamentally analog
0:38:15'cause sound is fundamentally analog.
0:38:17All you're really doing,
0:38:18at some point there are wires going to speakers, right?
0:38:20So the question is, audio has to be converted
0:38:23through a digital audio converter, a DAC,
0:38:26and there's a really good DAC in the iPhone.
0:38:29And so you could move the DAC out into the headphones,
0:38:33although that's really expensive,
0:38:35and my understanding is Lightning has
0:38:38an analog audio pass-through already.
0:38:40So presumably, in most cases,
0:38:42you would pass through analog audio
0:38:45from the iPhone out to the headphones anyway.
0:38:47presumably you would do that. So, and even if you didn't, you would still need to convert
0:38:51digital to analog in order to get it in the headphone speakers. So the DAC, the digital
0:39:00to analog converter, is, it has to be a part of the process anyway. So if somebody tells
0:39:06you it's pure digital, until it's like going directly into your brain, I guess your brain
0:39:10isn't even digital, your brain is also analog. So, no, that is not a reason that it's now
0:39:16now not in analog, we're going from analog to digital. It's a bad, bad reason. But there
0:39:19could be good reasons. And I think Apple is going to need to make those cases, because
0:39:23it would be possible to have a much smarter device if you attached it via Lightning.
0:39:28Let's talk about adapters. Yeah.
0:39:32They have to make one, right? Flat out, they have to make one.
0:39:36Absolutely. Absolutely.
0:39:37My feeling would be, you don't put it in the box, because that undermines the change.
0:39:42Most people use ear pods. Yep.
0:39:44They don't need it.
0:39:45Yeah, even if people didn't, right?
0:39:47Even if most people didn't use AirPods, you still don't do it.
0:39:50Because it's like admitting that you made the wrong move, in my opinion.
0:39:54Like if you put an adapter in, it's like saying you still should be living in the past rather
0:40:00than coming with us into the future.
0:40:03Which is why they didn't put any adapters in the MacBook box either, and made you pay
0:40:06$80 for them.
0:40:08But these ones have to be cheap, in my opinion.
0:40:11They just have to be.
0:40:13I've seen speculation.
0:40:14What do you think the Apple lightning to classic audio adapter costs?
0:40:20It should be $5.
0:40:21Wow.
0:40:23I was going to, uh, I I'm going to predict 19.
0:40:27All right.
0:40:28Uh, which is lower than I've seen some people predict 29.
0:40:32I'm going to predict 19.
0:40:33I feel like Apple doesn't make any products that are less than $19.
0:40:39But, um, uh, I do agree.
0:40:41It should be cheap.
0:40:42Also, I saw that somebody made a really good point.
0:40:44- Here's one, here's one for you.
0:40:46- Yeah.
0:40:47- Apple make an iPhone micro USB adapter in Europe
0:40:51because they have to.
0:40:52- Right.
0:40:53- It's seven pounds.
0:40:54- All right.
0:40:57All right.
0:40:57- Well, the old, let me rephrase that.
0:40:59The 30 pin one, seven pounds, and it always was.
0:41:02The lightning one is 15 pounds.
0:41:04- All right, well see--
0:41:05- So it's still cheaper than usual stuff that they do.
0:41:07- 15 pounds though, that's a $20 product, right?
0:41:10- Yeah, yeah.
0:41:11They still do make a £7 one.
0:41:13'Cause yeah, and it was £7 when it came around as well.
0:41:16But then they moved to Lightning.
0:41:18- I think the Lightning adds cost too.
0:41:20I did see something that I wanted to mention,
0:41:22which is it's also how this adapter works,
0:41:25that if it's a rigid adapter that sticks out
0:41:28half an inch or an inch, that's gonna be awful.
0:41:31Just like in your pocket with your iPhone.
0:41:33So I saw somebody-- - So I have a thought
0:41:35about this.
0:41:36- Yes.
0:41:36- 'Cause I, yeah, I thought the exact same thing.
0:41:38One of the reasons I thought it should be cheap
0:41:40is you buy a bunch of them and you attach them to the headphones and they fix to the
0:41:44headphones. So it's not sticking out of the phone, it sticks out the end of your headphones.
0:41:48Yeah, but still, if it's rigid, then it's sticking out of the, um, it's sticking out
0:41:54of your pocket. Yeah, but so a lot of headphones, like the
0:41:573.5mm jacks anyway, like on over-the-ear headphones, they're larger, they're quite large.
0:42:02Yeah, but now you've got even more, because you're extending it. I think somebody mentioned
0:42:05the idea of having it be a flexible cable, that it's as small as possible lightning adapter,
0:42:11and then what it comes out with beyond that is flexible instead of just straight. And
0:42:15I think that's a good idea, and I hope that's what this is if Apple makes this, just because
0:42:20it makes it a little less painful for people to use. And I love the idea of having it be
0:42:25cheap enough that you can attach it. I mean, most people don't have eight different sets
0:42:29of headphones, so you attach it to your favorite set and forget it. I think that's perfectly
0:42:33a perfectly reasonable use case and I think a lot of people will do that.
0:42:38Stephen pointed out in the chat room that the MagSafe to MagSafe 2 converter is $9.
0:42:42Yes, that's true. I was actually going to mention that, but that's like a piece of metal.
0:42:46I know.
0:42:47So, it's pretty dumb. But yes, that is the cheapest thing you can buy in the Apple store,
0:42:50I think.
0:42:51And what about what goes in the box now? What goes in the box? Do they go crazy and go Bluetooth
0:42:57or do they put some Lightning EarPods in there?
0:42:59Lightning EarPods. That'll be it.
0:43:00Because this is where that 9 to 5 Mac story comes in, right?
0:43:03Because what it looks like is Apple is developing something called AirPods, which they would
0:43:07be the additional one that you would buy.
0:43:10Like they used to be that in-ear, but it has always been the in-ear AirPods or iPhone or
0:43:15iPod headphones that they've always done.
0:43:18Yeah, so this is the markup.
0:43:20This is the, you can, we'll give you a pair of boring old headphones.
0:43:25I can hear the keynote pitch here, right?
0:43:28It's the, "Well, wired headphones, they get in the way.
0:43:30Look at all these ways that your iPhone headphones get tangled."
0:43:34We made a video of how annoying it is to have the...
0:43:38We got the lady from the Apple Pay commercial back to say, "Oh, no, my headphones have been
0:43:42tangled in the doorknob.
0:43:45Aye."
0:43:46But imagine a wireless headphones and everybody will be like, "Yeah, we've seen Bluetooth
0:43:52headphones."
0:43:53And then Tim Cook says, or Phil Schiller or whoever says, "Aha, but they still have a
0:43:56wire because they have a wire that connects the two parts across the back
0:44:00of your your neck or the front of your neck and it's really annoying and it
0:44:03bounces around and makes sound that ruins the sound of your headphones. What
0:44:07if both of the things you stuck in your ears were themselves wireless and not
0:44:11connected to one another? That's what we've done. I think that's what the rumor
0:44:15is from from 9 to 5 and as somebody who's got a set of Bluetooth earbuds
0:44:19I'm totally on board with that because that the wire that connects them is
0:44:23really annoying and it does make noise and it bugs me. So, but then you've got two of
0:44:29these things, you have to keep track of them, don't lose them, you're gonna lose them, and
0:44:33they both have to be charged. So apparently there's a charging case, that's what this
0:44:38thing comes with. Yeah, that has battery in it. You charge the battery in the case, and
0:44:43then you pop them in the case and it charges. Right. I like that as an idea. That's smart.
0:44:46The battery could be quite large really, because it's just a case, and you pop them in there
0:44:50and it charges wirelessly. So whenever you're not using them you don't lose
0:44:53them and they are recharging on the battery that's in the case and then when
0:44:56you get home you plug in the case with the with the air pods in them and they
0:45:02charge. It's smart. That's a very smart idea. And if it charges by
0:45:06lightning all the better. Sure. They're everywhere right? Lightning cables are
0:45:11everywhere in my house. I could just plug them in anywhere because like these new
0:45:15Sennheisers that I've got they charge by mini USB. Yeah. And I only have mini USB
0:45:19ports in like one room. Yeah my blue buds are the same way. Because I just don't
0:45:24have as many requirements for mini-USB as I do Lightning. You can just pull
0:45:30the mini-USB cable out of the BB-8 dock. Not a bad idea. That's what I do to
0:45:37charge mine now. BB-8, I steal the power from BB-8 and charge my headphones. Poor BB-8.
0:45:43Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's a, you know, I think that is an interesting idea and I
0:45:48I think people will lose them, but I would be,
0:45:50I would actually be excited about that,
0:45:53depending on how they sound,
0:45:54because I do wear in-ear headphones,
0:45:56so something that I stick in my ear is not,
0:45:58it's not a problem to me.
0:46:00And when I use the wireless headphones,
0:46:01although I like the fact that they're wireless,
0:46:03they are, that cord that runs between them is not great.
0:46:07I'm not a fan of it.
0:46:08I would love to be rid of it.
0:46:10As somebody who does use third-party headphones
0:46:12with my iPhone all the time to listen to podcasts and stuff,
0:46:15- Yeah, I mean, I'm not thrilled with having
0:46:18to have an adapter for it.
0:46:20And I think that, I actually think one of the big problems
0:46:22here is that it feeds into public perception,
0:46:25negative public perception of Apple.
0:46:26And they're just, it's something you're gonna have
0:46:28to deal with, is public perception of Apple is that Apple
0:46:31likes to ruin the stuff that you own in order to force you
0:46:33to buy new stuff.
0:46:34That's the public perception of Apple.
0:46:35People are still complaining about the conversion
0:46:38from the 30 pin connector to lightning,
0:46:40which I think is unfair because the 30 pin connector
0:46:42was around all the time.
0:46:43if you look at Apple's competitors like Samsung and you see what connectors that they put
0:46:47on their products, they have been all sorts of proprietary connectors that are on a single
0:46:51product and then they're never seen again. And Lightning is much better. 30-pin was around
0:46:57for a long time. Lightning is going to be around presumably for a long time. I think
0:47:01we just said that we think it will be. So I think it's unfair there. I think the defense
0:47:07is a lot weaker with a move like this. I think this feeds into perception that Apple's making
0:47:11all these headphones that are out there obsolete, it's forcing you to buy a dongle if you want
0:47:15to use them. The party scenario I mentioned where there are mini jack plugs everywhere
0:47:21in the world and now you're going to be in a situation like you were with a Mac that
0:47:26doesn't have the right video connector on it where if you don't happen to have your
0:47:30audio dongle with you for your iPhone, you can't plug into that sound system that you
0:47:36were going to plug into. It just it's it's not enough of a reason not to do it but it's
0:47:43worth considering as part of the the math that perhaps Apple's already considered about
0:47:50what do you gain what do you lose and how do you sell it.
0:47:53And I still think it's happening. I still think it's happening.
0:47:59It's a very Apple move it's got all of the forward thinking you know it is it's like
0:48:05a combination of arrogance and forward thinking that is required for this. And Apple's always
0:48:08been very good at this, and Steve Jobs was great at it, which is, we want to drag the
0:48:13world ahead, but the world doesn't want to go. And then you have that moment when
0:48:16I say arrogance, then you have that moment where it's like, well, you know what, they're
0:48:19going to come along with us. Even though they don't like it, they're going to come along
0:48:23with us because we're great. And that's a very Apple move. And it would not surprise
0:48:28me at all if they did it, because even though I can complain about it, and I'm not entirely
0:48:32sure that I believe all of the reports and that it's 100%. From the beginning, it's been
0:48:41very clear, and we talked about this off air a few months ago, that it is a quintessentially
0:48:47Apple thing to do. So on that level, it's like, would Apple do this? Hell yeah, Apple
0:48:53of course would do this. Will they do it? You know, probably, maybe, possibly, but it's
0:49:01It's complicated and how they do it is going to be interesting to see if they do it.
0:49:05How do they sell it?
0:49:06How do they explain it?
0:49:07What are their reasons?
0:49:08Why is this a benefit to users?
0:49:09And then how does the public react to it?
0:49:12It'll be interesting to see if it happens.
0:49:14We've only got like eight months to go.
0:49:18Yeah, that's right.
0:49:21Let the speculation about products to be announced in September begin.
0:49:25Should we do some ask upgrade?
0:49:28I think it's time.
0:49:29I'll warm up the lasers while you tell us about our sponsor.
0:49:32This week's episode is brought to you by Fizzle.
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0:49:55He's given me lots of things to think about over the last couple of years as I've been
0:49:59thinking about doing this. He was one of the people that pushed me to think about doing
0:50:03Relay in the first place. He was very inspiring to both me and Steven when we were looking
0:50:08at starting all of this. And the reason is because the way that Chase approaches this
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0:51:21[imitates air-hissing]
0:51:22Ask Upgrade.
0:51:23So, with Richard, do you know where your biggest share
0:51:27of your audience comes from?
0:51:29Is it podcast app, iTunes, or any others?
0:51:31And do you use statistics?
0:51:33Jason?
0:51:35-Well, you are the co-founder of Relay FM,
0:51:38so you might want to talk about this, too.
0:51:41I did look up the upgrade statistics,
0:51:43and for Upgrade Overcast is our number-one client,
0:51:47and then after that, it's the podcast app
0:51:51the iOS podcast app, and then iTunes, and then Pocket Casts. Those are the top four,
0:51:56and those are by far the most substantial four in upgrade history and current. I actually
0:52:02checked last episode and then also the aggregate for the history of upgrade, and it's basically
0:52:06the same.
0:52:07So for all of Relay FM, depending on where it's obviously different, it's the same as
0:52:12those statistics. Like, you look at material, which is our Android show, Overcast is not
0:52:18gonna be number one.
0:52:19I would imagine Pocket Casts does very well there. It does very well.
0:52:23The developer of Pocket Casts is on that podcast.
0:52:26It's funny, I looked at the incomparable stats
0:52:30and on the incomparable podcasts, the podcast app is number one.
0:52:34And Overcast I think might be number two. It might be like neck and neck with
0:52:38iTunes, but the iOS podcast app is number one.
0:52:41And I'm not surprised because that is a more general interest
0:52:45show. It's not just for Apple nerds, even though Apple nerds are my audience. And so
0:52:52that's sort of where it started and so many of my panels audience too, but it's grown
0:52:55and changed since then. And you know, not all Apple nerds are interested in pop culture
0:52:59stuff and there are other pop culture people who are interested in that show that aren't
0:53:03Apple nerds. So for that it's the podcast app. But it is amazing. And I would not be
0:53:09surprised if this is generally true, maybe not as extreme as it is for us, but generally
0:53:13true that the Apple podcast app is on iOS is the number one because it's on
0:53:18every iPhone and the iPhone is huge and Google has not yet you know even when
0:53:24Google Music assumes all podcasts bodily into heaven it's not going to be a
0:53:30podcast app right it's going to be a an app called Google Music and so I feel
0:53:35like Android still is not doing podcasts right until there's a thing called
0:53:41podcasting, you know, a podcast app that is on the deck of every Android phone. So it's
0:53:47not surprising to me that the iOS podcast app is sort of number one in a lot of places.
0:53:51Do you use stats?
0:53:52>> Oh, yeah, of course I do. I have to.
0:53:55>> Yeah, I mean, we tell our advertisers actually how many people, you know, download, how many
0:54:00downloads the shows get, and that's important. And podcast stats are a thorny subject that
0:54:05perhaps we will never get into here, but if we do, it'll be another time. But it is difficult
0:54:10measure podcasts. There are unique things about podcasting that make it not like other forms of
0:54:16media or not like forms of web media because you can't measure exactly what people listen to. Now,
0:54:23if you're somebody like Marco or if you're Russell with Pocket Casts and you make an app where people
0:54:29listen, they could, and I'm not saying they do, I'm not sure what they measure. - Or that they should.
0:54:35- Yeah, I'm not saying they should, but they could if they wanted to, and Apple could do this,
0:54:39and who knows again if they're doing it or not, measure what actually gets played,
0:54:44how long you listen to it, when you stop it, and you could get some very different statistics
0:54:49about it. But from the perspective of the provider of the content, when you download
0:54:56the file, that's it. Unless you're on a web page and you're sort of scrubbing around
0:55:01and listening to it because then you can actually look at the web server if you've got sophisticated
0:55:05stats and see sort of like when the web client is sort of streaming the file and where in
0:55:11the file it's seeking and pulling down data. But if you're on an app, the app just downloads
0:55:15the MP3. It downloads it and that's it. And then you never see anything more unless somebody
0:55:21clicks through to a link in the show notes. And guess what? People don't click through
0:55:24links in the show notes, mostly. So basically it's just a mystery. All we know is that the
0:55:29MP3 got downloaded. We don't know if it got listened to. We don't know if it got redownloaded
0:55:33somewhere else we don't know so it's it's an interesting thing very different
0:55:37from the web where you know like every single click that happens yeah our
0:55:41statistics come from our host our audio host which is Libsyn yes where yeah and
0:55:47I and I I use Libsyn for the main comparable show and the rest of them I
0:55:51don't but I have the RSS feed runs through feed press which has a podcast
0:55:58stats add-on. So that's where I get my non-main-show incomparable stats to.
0:56:06Solomon has a similar question. It goes like this, "AAC is ubiquitous and
0:56:11superior to MP3 at low bit rates, but you choose MP3 for podcasts. I'm curious as
0:56:16to why." For me, it's simply because not all devices can play AAC and we used to
0:56:21get lots of complaints from people that used Android devices, so I decided when
0:56:26we started Relay FM that we would be using MP3 because it is more widely
0:56:30accepted and used. Yeah and it may be that in you know that in 2016 this is
0:56:37not true anymore AAC may play everywhere but it certainly didn't used to and I
0:56:44would go back to our argument about why do you get rid of the headphone jack and
0:56:50and say, "Okay, we've got a format that plays everywhere."
0:56:55Like literally, it's like any device
0:56:59that's capable of playing audio can play an MP3 practically.
0:57:01It is such a broadly supported format.
0:57:05So if we're gonna switch to something like a AC,
0:57:07what do we get out of it?
0:57:08And Solomon says, "Superior at low bit rates."
0:57:13What I would say to that is,
0:57:15for spoken audio at the bit rates
0:57:18we export our files. 96 kilobytes per second. I do 64 for incomparable 64 mono and it's fine.
0:57:27I would say at the bit rates for spoken audio it doesn't matter. And even if the AAC at that
0:57:34bit rate would be superior you probably wouldn't lower the bit rate and it's just there's no gain
0:57:39to be made there. And it used to be the argument was the AAC had had chapter support and MP3 didn't
0:57:45but MP3 does actually have chapter support now and clients are increasingly supporting
0:57:50it including Overcast which is our number one and so yeah that's the reason there's
0:57:56no reason to switch because it will lead to more potential incompatibilities and the fact
0:58:02that it might sound slightly better and it probably doesn't sound better for spoken
0:58:07words like the stuff we do it's just not worth it.
0:58:11Jon would like to know do you guys still use specific RSS feed apps or just social apps
0:58:15like twisted to keep up with news. Jason? I'm on the record about this. I don't
0:58:21use RSS feed apps. I have never really reliably used RSS feed apps. Even when I
0:58:26was using NetNewsWire I didn't open it a lot of the time. So I've always been a
0:58:30bad RSS user. I'm still a bad RSS user. The number one way I read in a feed at
0:58:37this point is Nuzzle, which I've written about. It's great. It aggregates links
0:58:43from Twitter and Facebook and puts them on a page, a web page for if you're on a Mac
0:58:50and there's a nice app if you're on iOS and it uses your Twitter account but you can also
0:58:55see feeds from that other people are following. If you have Twitter lists it'll generate story
0:58:59lists based on that and it looks like a news reader. It's a socially powered news reader
0:59:04so it's showing you the headlines and summaries of the articles that your people in your social
0:59:09media are sharing and floats the ones that are most shared to the top and in fact and
0:59:14also sends out alerts you can you can have it send out alerts when there's a story that's
0:59:18trending where a bunch of people are sending a story. In fact that's how I found out that
0:59:23David Bowie died was I opened my email this morning and I had the daily nuzzle email and
0:59:28the top shared story in the last 24 hours when it sent the email out was that David
0:59:33Bowie died and that's and then I went to Twitter and I read a bunch of stories and a bunch
0:59:37of remembrances of David Bowie but it came from Nuzzle because everybody on my timeline
0:59:43was sharing articles about David Bowie after he it was announced that he had he'd passed
0:59:47away. Yeah I found out on Twitter. Yeah I mean I essentially found out on Twitter time
0:59:52delayed through Nuzzle because I was I watched last night I closed my iPad apparently and
0:59:59watched TV for a couple hours and then went to bed and didn't check in and that was right
1:00:05I would have seen it last night, but I didn't, I didn't, I just, I just went to bed after
1:00:11after we were done watching TV, so.
1:00:14Yeah, I'm Twitter only.
1:00:16If it's, if I don't see it on Twitter, I don't see it anywhere.
1:00:19Yeah, I agree.
1:00:20That just works for me so well.
1:00:21Yeah, it works for me too.
1:00:23In fact, I would say I use just scanning Twitter more than I, than I use Nuzzle, but I do,
1:00:28when I'm trying to think of, you know, I want, I want to see something that I want
1:00:32to read.
1:00:33What do I want to read right now?
1:00:34Nuzzle because Nuzzle will find links that I didn't notice because I don't read every
1:00:38single tweet that's in my timeline. I will miss things and Nuzzle's really great at floating
1:00:42that stuff back up.
1:00:44I didn't remember this or I didn't know this about you that you didn't use an RSS app and
1:00:49that does surprise me because of the work that you have done in the past as well as
1:00:55what you do now is very link-based and finding out what's happening and being able to respond
1:01:02to stuff. It's just interesting to me that you don't…
1:01:05If I was running a breaking news site or I was the news guy at a website, I would have
1:01:11to do it. But I have never been that. When I was a news guy, it was always… it was
1:01:19either in the days when instant reaction wasn't necessary, and there weren't, you know,
1:01:24because it was before there was all of the web media that we have today.
1:01:28It went into a magazine, like, "How instant can you be?"
1:01:31I've got a month to write that story now.
1:01:33Or I was in management and I had people who were the ones who were doing that and I was
1:01:37not doing that anymore.
1:01:38So I never had to do that.
1:01:40And my social media sphere is really great at pointing out everything that is interesting.
1:01:45So when I started Six Colors, which is not intended to be a breaking news site, since
1:01:50then I have paid more attention to things like Nuzzle, because I do want to see those
1:01:54links as they happen and get them posted before John Gruber posts them.
1:01:57I've got a little personal like, it's not that I want to beat Grouper, it's like if
1:02:01Grouper posts the link, I feel like there's no point in me posting it because I'm going
1:02:06to assume almost everybody who reads my site also reads Daring Fireball. So I want to get
1:02:10it before John gets it. So that's one of my little points of, or anything before anybody
1:02:16else gets it. If I see something really interesting, it's usually not even news, it's usually like
1:02:20an interesting, like a Dr. Drang post or something. I'm like, "Aha, I got the Dr. Drang post,"
1:02:25then I'll link to it. So, or a Stephen Hackett post, I'll be like, "I got that one first!
1:02:30He wrote about another old Mac and now it's on the site." So I pay more attention to that,
1:02:37but still, that's why I never needed to do RSS. And I found it just, I just don't live
1:02:44that way where RSS, we just get out of control. I was always very web-focused. I have my favorite
1:02:51sites bookmarked, I would read them on the web once Twitter happened that solved that
1:02:55problem entirely where all the good links were passing through. So I've never had to
1:02:59really do it.
1:03:00>> Last question comes from Ayyan. "Didn't you have Apple TV? It does not have Siri in
1:03:06my country." Ayyan is in the Netherlands. "Is it still worth it to upgrade from version
1:03:10three?"
1:03:11>> I--I think so. I--I don't think--I thought this was an interesting question. I don't
1:03:18think Siri is the reason to get the new Apple TV anyway. No I don't ever ever ever use it.
1:03:25I almost never use it. I have to say, I'll put this on record now, I like my Apple TV.
1:03:32I like it. I'm using it for airplay to the TV in the occasions where we're watching something
1:03:38downstairs because we're watching like Seinfeld, which maybe you did or didn't know this internet,
1:03:44In the United Kingdom you cannot get Seinfeld digitally, you cannot buy it, it is impossible
1:03:49to do or stream.
1:03:51So we are having to watch it from other means.
1:03:55DVDs of course ripped via Super Drive.
1:04:01So we're using it for that.
1:04:02I use it for YouTube and stuff, like when I eat lunch I go downstairs and sit in front
1:04:06of my computer and I like put YouTube on or something or Netflix and yeah I'm liking it
1:04:10for that.
1:04:11That's all I use it for though, just that top four row.
1:04:13I never play games on it or anything like that.
1:04:15- Right.
1:04:16- But I'm using it.
1:04:17- I think the larger point is that a lot of the benefits
1:04:20of the new device are that it's faster,
1:04:21it's got the new interface, it's got the new remote,
1:04:24it's got all the apps, and those are reasons to upgrade.
1:04:28Siri alone is not, I would say.
1:04:30So don't let that stop you, but you still need to weigh
1:04:33whether you're happy with your version three Apple TV
1:04:37or whether you want to go up to the fourth generation.
1:04:39But Siri, it's nice and I use it occasionally,
1:04:42but it's not the reason that that product exists.
1:04:45In fact, if you had given me,
1:04:48had me list all the reasons to upgrade to version four,
1:04:52that I would probably not have placed that high on the list.
1:04:55- Agreed.
1:04:57Right, so I think that wraps up today's episode.
1:04:59If you wanna catch our show notes for this week,
1:05:00head on over to relay.fm/upgrades/71.
1:05:04Thanks again to our sponsors, Fizzle and MailRoute.
1:05:07If you wanna catch us online,
1:05:08you can go over to sixcolors.com,
1:05:10that's where you'll find Jason's work.
1:05:12He also is the host of Clockwise and Liftoff on Relay FM as well as a whole slew of podcasts
1:05:18over at The Incomparable.
1:05:20You can also find Jason on Twitter.
1:05:21He is @jsnelljsnellll.
1:05:24I am @imikeyke.
1:05:26We'd love it if you checked out our new shows on Relay FM, Canvas and Remaster.
1:05:30There's a couple of great editions there that you should go and check out.
1:05:35But we'll be back next week.
1:05:37Until then, say goodbye Jason Snell.
1:05:39Goodbye everybody.
1:05:40[MUSIC PLAYING]
1:05:43[ Music ]
1:05:50[ Silence ]