70: I Could Call My iPhone a Muffin


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, happy new year. This is Upgrade Episode number 70.

00:00:13   Today's show is brought to you by Casper and Squarespace.

00:00:16   My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by the 2016 version of Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:21   Hello Myke Hurley.

00:00:23   How are you feeling today? Do you feel ready to go for the new year?

00:00:26   I do. It is that moment where you're, you got to become engaged in the new year, the

00:00:34   holiday break is over. I had to set my alarm last night, which was interesting because

00:00:39   I haven't done that for the last two weeks because I mostly set my alarm so that, you

00:00:44   know, as you know, I work out of my house. I could pretty much get up any time. But I

00:00:49   got to get the kids up and off to school. And so I had to do that last night. I was

00:00:53   "Oh yeah, alarm clock." And I woke up this morning when the alarm went off and I thought,

00:00:57   "Wow, it's really dark." Because I've been waking up a little bit later, but that's okay.

00:01:01   It's sort of after a couple of weeks, I think it's a good feeling to get back in the swim

00:01:06   and I feel like ready to go and enthusiastic about doing it. So that's good for me. How

00:01:12   about you?

00:01:13   Yeah, yeah, I'm feeling pretty good. I mean, I'm still, I decided to like ease in today,

00:01:18   you know, like in the transition period. Because I've been kind of working all the way through

00:01:22   the break anyway just not as much as usual but now we're back on regularly

00:01:26   regularly scheduled programming this week which we haven't been for the last two

00:01:29   weeks so that's gonna be the yeah the interesting part of coming back from

00:01:33   this break because I haven't done that in the last like very year I haven't

00:01:36   really taken a break where I've been at home and because even when I go on

00:01:40   holidays the majority of the time I record everything in advance or something

00:01:44   like that but this one has been just just straight out like we're just not

00:01:47   doing them for a couple of weeks on a couple of shows and that's been that's

00:01:51   been nice. But I'm happy to get back into it.

00:01:53   It's, at IDG we used to have, they used to sort of give us the week between Christmas

00:01:59   and New Year's off, and doing this myself, I can't do that. I've enjoyed kind of working

00:02:04   a lighter schedule, but I also am not abandoning, we used to like have a bunch of people would

00:02:12   sign up for like a half day where they would be monitoring the websites and posting some

00:02:15   stories and stuff, and that's how you cover the break. And of course when it's just me,

00:02:19   Dan has been on vacation, so it was literally just me at six colors. So I've been doing

00:02:24   a little bit of work on that and I had some podcast stuff to do, but it was a light schedule

00:02:27   and that was kind of, that felt fine. That was kind of enjoyable that it was just a reduced

00:02:32   schedule. And one of the nice things about not having all the ads sold, a lot of times

00:02:37   ads don't, people don't want to buy ads after Christmas because they want to market before

00:02:42   the holidays and not after. So I was very happy to make the decision with Clockwise

00:02:47   for example, to not do episodes the last couple weeks of the year. Nice to have a break, and

00:02:53   now we'll spin it back up and get going. But that was, by not selling the ads, we had the

00:02:56   option of doing those shows or not, and during the course of the year we would still do shows

00:03:01   without sponsors just because consistency is important. But at the end of the year it

00:03:05   felt like it was good. Take a little vacation from it and then come back fresh in the new

00:03:08   year. So it's good to be able to have that flexibility and to do some of that. But now,

00:03:14   yeah, we re back to full schedule, as you say.

00:03:18   David: Mm hmm, fully scheduled. Talking about the holidays, I received a lovely gift package

00:03:22   from you.

00:03:23   Geoff - Yes, I m glad you got it.

00:03:25   David - Yeah, it included a couple of things. It had some brain balls, which are sitting

00:03:30   on my desk. Mini brain balls, we ll call them.

00:03:32   Geoff - That was an incomparable, some members of the incomparable crew, if they received

00:03:37   a package from me, I ordered some foam brain balls and I sent those to people. So you also

00:03:44   received some brain balls. Use them wisely.

00:03:47   >> But the most—I will. I have it in my hand right now. It is my new kind of—

00:03:51   >> Good. Excellent.

00:03:52   >> —whilst recording "Fiddling with Something" toy.

00:03:54   >> That's what it's for.

00:03:55   >> And you sent me something that was very curious. I didn't really understand what

00:04:01   you had sent me until I unfurled it and realized—

00:04:04   >> It's a very large sort of canvas object, right?

00:04:08   >> Yes, exactly. And I realized you had sent me an actual mailbag.

00:04:13   I went on eBay. I had this flash where I was like, you know, what would be funny is if

00:04:20   there was a mailbag I could send to Myke to celebrate mailbagging. And I went on eBay

00:04:25   and they had vintage US Postal Service mailbags and I bought one. Actually, I had, that was

00:04:32   my second auction that I had to do before I could finally acquire it and then had to

00:04:37   ship it to the UK, which was a challenge and not cheap to ship things to the UK. But in

00:04:42   the end, the mailbag is in your possession. And it's big. I don't know what you're going

00:04:46   to put in it, if anything, but you could put a lot of mail in that bag, I'm just saying.

00:04:51   David: Yeah, at the moment, it hasn't got anything in it, but I might put like, the

00:04:56   mail I don't like can just go in that bag. It can be where all my bank statements go,

00:05:00   into the mailbag. Thank you very much for my mailbag.

00:05:03   Tim: Yes, you're welcome. I'm glad. That was a good idea. Too good to pass up the mailbag.

00:05:09   a special thing for you and me. So I'm glad you got it.

00:05:14   Should we do some follow up? It's a great idea.

00:05:18   This is all follow up mainly from a couple of weeks ago because obviously we did the

00:05:22   illustrious upgrade last week. Angus wrote in to say, and this is in response to somebody

00:05:27   from a previous Ask Upgrade segment about having a stuck app update on the Apple TV,

00:05:34   Angus wrote in to say, "To force a TV app update, you can go to the apps page in the

00:05:38   store and update directly from that page. Which kind of makes sense, right? So something

00:05:43   stuck because it's got an update pending, go to the store and instead of letting you

00:05:49   download it again, it will let you download the new update, which is a good top tip there

00:05:53   from Angus. Although I have not run into this, mainly because I don't use many apps on Apple

00:05:59   TV.

00:06:00   **Matt Stauffer** Nor have I felt the need to do an update.

00:06:03   would be like you find out that there's an update and then and that enables something

00:06:09   and why don't I have that feature oh I guess maybe I need to force an update no I've never

00:06:13   had that experience on the Apple TV because I'm mostly just sort of using it.

00:06:17   There aren't any apps that are cool enough really I think you know that have got like

00:06:22   exciting enough features right now which are compelling you to force these updates but

00:06:28   I do believe it will change eventually.

00:06:30   - Sure, sure.

00:06:31   - Listen to Jason wrote in to say,

00:06:33   I wanted to make a plug for Myke's choice

00:06:35   of one password for Mac because of one password for Teams.

00:06:38   So Jason wanted to just point out

00:06:40   the greatness of one password for Teams.

00:06:42   Now I have not actually used this yet, Jason,

00:06:44   but I believe that you have.

00:06:45   - I've used it a little bit.

00:06:46   I set up one, a team for the incomparable incorporated.

00:06:50   Right now there's one vault in there that is for

00:06:55   all of our kind of sort of,

00:06:58   it's like bank and corporate credit card and log into other kind of data stuff that my

00:07:03   wife and I both use because she's sort of the CFO of the company. She's got a business

00:07:13   degree and she does the payroll and all that stuff. And so this way, instead of me sending

00:07:19   her a password or her sending me a password, we have a shared vault. And then I also have

00:07:24   a vault for hosts that I haven't rolled out to people yet because I've been waiting for

00:07:28   this to roll out across all the one password apps. But I have a lot of hosts who need to

00:07:33   know the logins for the FTP server where you upload your podcast files and for the CMS

00:07:38   where you post your podcasts. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to put those in the

00:07:43   host vault and share that with the hosts so that they have access to that instead of me

00:07:49   having to, you know, tell every new host, here are all the passwords for all the logins

00:07:54   that you need to do this, you know, as a guest host. Instead, I'll just be able to say, "Let

00:07:59   me invite you to the 1Password Vault." So it's fun. It's a nice idea that you can share different

00:08:05   levels of access with people in your work group. And then it sort of just kind of melds

00:08:12   in with your personal 1Password Vault. You can separate them out if you want, but you

00:08:17   can also just, I think by default, it's all vaults. And so when you search for something,

00:08:20   If it's in your team vault or it's in your regular vault, it all works together.

00:08:25   It's very cool.

00:08:27   Yeah, this is something that I really should look into a little bit more because me and

00:08:34   Steven obviously share a bunch of stuff, like a bunch of logins.

00:08:37   And what happens is we just iMessage each other the 1Password links, right, to add them

00:08:41   to our individual accounts, like our 1Password apps.

00:08:44   But it probably makes sense for us to look into 1Password for teams.

00:08:47   It seems like a good solution.

00:08:49   Yeah.

00:08:50   Yeah, it's a cool idea.

00:08:51   It's a cool idea.

00:08:52   If you need to share secret information in a work group,

00:08:56   that's what it's for.

00:08:57   - And Steve wanted to write in to share some artwork

00:09:02   that he and his daughter had created

00:09:05   in the Pigment coloring app,

00:09:07   following our upgradey suggestion for Pigment

00:09:11   as the best name over the year,

00:09:12   which has reminded me, I will put in the show notes, Jason,

00:09:16   a link to some of my favorite work that I have done

00:09:20   in the Pigment app.

00:09:23   Oh boy, do I love this app so much.

00:09:24   - It looks like, so is Pigment,

00:09:26   are the things that you can color in Pigment,

00:09:29   are those specially kind of marked up

00:09:31   so that it knows where the borders are and things like that?

00:09:33   - Oh yeah, yeah, yep.

00:09:34   - So it's not just, 'cause my initial thought was

00:09:37   it's too bad that you can't like take a picture of something

00:09:40   and then color that in of a piece of paper,

00:09:43   but it seems like what they're doing

00:09:44   is some special markup information about sensing all the lines and all the regions and things

00:09:50   like that in order to make it a better experience.

00:09:52   Yeah, it is 100% that. There is a mode where you can click inside of an empty field and

00:09:59   if you just color you don't go over the lines. So they're doing analysis to work out the

00:10:04   specific areas. And plus the way that the app works is a subscription that you pay and

00:10:09   get new books as they're generated or as they're added into their library. But yeah, that's

00:10:16   how it works. And yeah, it would be quite nice. I think someone should still make that

00:10:20   app. But that seems a little bit more tricky as to how you get that. You'd still have to

00:10:25   buy the books and then you have to take the pictures, right?

00:10:29   If you take a look at my pigment work there, I'll put a link in the show notes.

00:10:32   Oh, I haven't. You want me to...

00:10:34   Yeah, I just want you to appreciate...

00:10:36   To judge a wow.

00:10:37   the beauty. These are four of my favorites. They'll be in our show notes if you want to find them.

00:10:43   Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I love it. The Lion one is the one that I like the most.

00:10:48   I worked really hard on that one. It looks great. I love this coloring, man. It's fantastic.

00:10:55   It's so much fun. All right, let's do some follow-out. I have a couple of little things

00:11:01   that we want to talk about. The first one is relay-related. MacPowerUsers, the institution

00:11:08   that is MacPowerUsers, will be celebrating their 300th show in a couple of weeks time.

00:11:14   And for this occasion, myself and Steven are going to be taking the reins and we're going to be

00:11:21   talking to and interviewing Katie and David about the show and about their workflows and stuff like

00:11:26   Nice. And we want you guys to get involved, so if you will tweet with the hashtag #MPU300,

00:11:32   me and Steve will be able to collect those tweets and we'll be able to include your questions

00:11:37   to Katie and David in honor of their 300th episode of MacPow Users, which is kind of

00:11:43   astounding in and of itself. We're talking about podcasts with really high numbers.

00:11:48   Yes, the incomparable. We need to do something. I am considering converting the incomparable

00:11:56   to David and Katie's schedule, which is they do a bonus episode every month. Is that right?

00:12:02   Yeah, they do like a live, it's MPU live.

00:12:06   Yeah. So I'm thinking about that because that's why I've gotten behind them. But it's because

00:12:12   they're cheating.

00:12:14   You need to just do 20 bonus episodes in a week.

00:12:16   Yeah, well, we practically did that one for Star Wars. That's almost what we did. It almost

00:12:22   killed me. It's things that I edited that other people were on. We did post, if people

00:12:27   don't know, we posted four episodes about Star Wars The Force Awakens on The Incomparable

00:12:32   in the course of a week after the movie came out. Four different panels, four different

00:12:36   hosts. I only hosted one of them. So in the end, we ended up with, I don't know what that

00:12:40   seven and a half hours of people talking about Star Wars. But this follow-out is not about

00:12:47   that. It's just I wanted to mention the "Incomparable 281," which is our latest episode posted over

00:12:51   the weekend. It's our year in review episode. And there's a few things that are good about

00:12:55   it. It is a long episode. It's two and a half hours long. The first hour is our most common

00:13:01   panelists, most popular panelists on the show talking about the things that they liked for

00:13:07   2015. So if you're looking for recommendations for great movies and TV shows and books and

00:13:12   comics and other stuff, video games, that there's a...one of the listeners compiled

00:13:19   all of the things that we mentioned and it's in the show notes, which is great because

00:13:22   I didn't do it. I was too exhausted from putting it together. So I think it's fun just on that

00:13:28   if you don't regularly listen to the incomparable. And then the second half of the show is favorite

00:13:33   moments of the episodes from the podcast from the year, including a lot of very fun clips,

00:13:38   which took a lot of time to put together, but is kind of fun. So it's a nice wrap-up

00:13:42   of 2015, both stuff and also for the podcast itself. So people should check that out.

00:13:49   Yeah, most definitely. Most definitely. I'm nearly finished with the episode, and I enjoy

00:13:54   it immensely. The whole--

00:13:57   There's something very special at the very end of the episode.

00:13:59   Oh, I haven't gotten there yet. Good. The Skeletor thing this time far exceeded my expectations.

00:14:07   Just superb.

00:14:08   Yeah, because that's, for people who don't know, an ongoing story in our end-of-year

00:14:12   wrap-up episodes.

00:14:13   You can't even attempt to explain this, man.

00:14:15   Well, I'll just say Steve Lutz many years ago did a funny thing involving picking a

00:14:20   Skeletor in a draft that we did. And since then, in every successive annual episode,

00:14:26   picked as his favorite thing from the previous year. Well, the first time he picked Skeletor,

00:14:31   him picking Skeletor, in every successive episodes, every subsequent end of year recap,

00:14:37   he's picked his picking of Skeletor from the previous year, hoping to create a recursive

00:14:41   clip loop that would consume the universe where it was just clips of clips of clips

00:14:45   of clips of clips of Skeletor all the way down. But it has changed in various interesting

00:14:50   ways over the course of the last four years. So that usually is a plot point in the Incompetent

00:14:56   year in review episode and it is no different this year. But it's a very different take

00:15:01   on it this year.

00:15:02   And last up before we move into our little topics that we have this week, we have a smorgasbord

00:15:07   ahead. We've got an exciting week at Relay. We have a new show launching called Canvas.

00:15:12   There's...

00:15:13   I listened to the pilot just the other day.

00:15:16   Yes, Relay FM members got access to a pilot episode. But there is... It's all going to

00:15:23   out later this week it will live at relay.fm/canvas there's nothing there yet because it's not

00:15:29   live the show is Fraser Spears and Federico Vittucci talking about how to do things on

00:15:35   mainly iPad but iOS and like they really go in depth into how to make things happen how

00:15:41   to live and work on iOS and to take it one step further the entire show is edited on

00:15:48   on iOS by Fraser. So Fraser is recording on iOS and editing in iOS. BetterEco isn't because

00:15:56   I mainly won't let him so he doesn't have the equipment that he needs because of our

00:16:00   other shows. But yeah, it's a very, you know, they're really, these guys, they live and

00:16:05   breathe iPad and it is just going to be a fantastic show. And we have one other announcement

00:16:10   later this week that will happen at the same time.

00:16:13   Oh, that's exciting. As somebody who's using the iPad Pro a whole lot more, and my laptop

00:16:19   a whole lot less. Even episode one, I wrote down a whole bunch of things because there

00:16:24   were no show notes because it was just the pilot and it'll have complete show notes when

00:16:28   it posts. Just so many great ideas for ways of doing things, as well as listening to the

00:16:35   experts pinpoint with, you know, with pinpoint accuracy, the places where iOS still falls

00:16:41   short and I think that's really interesting. This is not just a yay, yippee, iOS is great

00:16:46   kind of podcast. They are using it day to day. They're in the trenches. They know where

00:16:51   it's not good enough and that was really interesting too because I had moments where I'm like,

00:16:56   "Oh, so that's not just me. That's actually hard to do. Good to know." So yeah, Canvas,

00:17:01   people should check it out and I look forward to hearing your secrets.

00:17:03   **Beserat Debele:** Yeah, it's going to be another fun week. We

00:17:06   like to do this.

00:17:07   **Matt Stauffer:** You posted a tantalizing image suggesting some

00:17:10   of the secrets that might be happening on Twitter.

00:17:12   But you never know from the image. You'd have to be a very, very keen observer to get it.

00:17:17   Alright, so, should we take a break?

00:17:19   Yeah.

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00:19:45   Alright, they missed us now.

00:19:48   So last week we did the Upgraders and you mentioned the Eddies.

00:19:54   Yes.

00:19:55   And I just, it was just, whilst I was thinking about this episode, I was like, I would like to know a little bit more about the Eddies.

00:20:01   Because the Eddies are...

00:20:03   They are kind of, and they have been a respected award in the Mac community.

00:20:10   Something that I am trying to force with the upgradees.

00:20:13   So I feel like I need to know a little bit more about the Eddies.

00:20:17   So for next year, I can fully institute the upgradees as a completely prestigious and

00:20:24   well-respected award ceremony.

00:20:26   So what were the eddies and how did they begin?

00:20:29   I just realized that as far as I can tell, that Macworld didn't do the eddy awards after

00:20:35   I left, which means that they left it – the last one was the 29th annual.

00:20:40   I kind of can't believe they let it lay there

00:20:45   the year before the 30th,

00:20:46   but they had lost all their staff.

00:20:48   So how would they have put it together?

00:20:50   That was a very difficult time for them.

00:20:52   But yeah, so the Eddy Awards,

00:20:55   I wasn't around when they started, but they were started.

00:20:57   So Macworld and Mac User Magazine back in the 80s

00:20:59   decided to start awards.

00:21:00   Macworlds were the Editor's Choice Awards

00:21:03   and they called them the Eddy Award

00:21:04   and they got a statue that looks kind of like an Oscar.

00:21:07   - Editor's Choice, Eddies, now I get it.

00:21:09   I never understood that.

00:21:11   And so, and the statue was kind of like the Oscar guy, sort of, but he's holding a classic

00:21:16   Mac above his head, and it's an actual statuette with a, I've got one right here.

00:21:22   So maybe next year, I, the, the, just the PNGs that I send people are not sufficient,

00:21:27   we need to actually make real statues or rosettes or something.

00:21:32   By the end, we, I think that was one of the problems that they had was that the statues

00:21:36   cost a lot of money and the marketing department got cheaper and cheaper. But so, and the Macworld

00:21:42   had world-class awards and it was, I don't really understand how the world-class awards

00:21:45   worked whether they were entirely editor's choice or what, you know, whether they had

00:21:49   a different process for it. It was a big process. We spent months compiling potential award

00:21:56   winners and the way it worked with a Mac user at ease was that they weren't fixed categories

00:22:02   every year, sort of like the upgrade-ies. We would change it based on where the interesting

00:22:07   products were in the market. And so we did that for a long time. When MacWorld and MacUser

00:22:11   merged in '97, there was a question about what would happen with the awards. And I think,

00:22:16   for whatever reason, the Eddies won out, I think because they were more iconic and interesting,

00:22:22   and MacWorld had not done a particularly great job of stewarding the world-class awards.

00:22:27   it was okay. But you know, the Eddy award was like everybody wanted that statue and

00:22:32   they liked, they just, so we kept it. Along with the mouse ratings, which came from Mac

00:22:36   User, we kept the Eddies from Mac User and moved those over to Mac World and the same

00:22:40   process happened. So, you know, over the years, I would say that the process became a lot

00:22:46   less time intensive because the staff kept getting smaller. And it was a huge amount

00:22:51   of time, because as a junior editor at MacUser, I spent a lot of time basically researching

00:22:58   products for the Eddy Awards, and we had like four different groups or five different groups

00:23:04   of editors who met every other week to go through the potential nominees and all that.

00:23:09   It was crazy. And then, in the end, by the way, there's like the proverbial smoke-filled

00:23:14   room where they go in and the winners come out and it was not like of a pure democracy.

00:23:22   It was very much like there would be debate and there would be a consensus. We would attempt

00:23:26   to reach a consensus and sometimes that would fail but in the end something would get put

00:23:32   forth and then usually that list would then be viewed by the editor-in-chief and not entirely

00:23:41   followed sometimes? Mostly, but not entirely. It was a whole process. There's no way to

00:23:48   pin it down either. It was a complex process. But in the end, people loved being--for a

00:23:54   long time we had nominees and winners. Eventually, I think we just announced winners because

00:24:02   being a nominee and not a winner was kind of lousy. But the reason they did it that

00:24:06   way is that it used to be that the night before Mac World Expo in January you would have an

00:24:12   awards ceremony, in fact my first day on the job at Mac User in 1994, I'm gonna say, my

00:24:20   first day on the job as a full-time employee was I didn't even go to the office, I put

00:24:26   on a rended tux and went to the awards ceremony, that was my first day on the job.

00:24:30   So do we need to like, we need to get a venue now as well?

00:24:34   Well, by the end there was no ceremony. In fact, one year at Mac User we just did it on AOL.

00:24:41   So it didn't, we didn't always have a ceremony and a venue and stuff like that. It's a digital age now.

00:24:50   But yes, if we really wanted to class up the upgradees, we would put on outfits and do a

00:24:56   live stream, I think, I suppose, a video stream of us announcing the upgrade-y. So that's

00:25:01   something for you to shoot for. Think about that one.

00:25:04   That's not too difficult to do. For 2016 upgrade-ies.

00:25:07   What we need is just the top half of a tuxedo each.

00:25:10   That's true, we could just have nothing but our pants on. And I mean pants. So, yeah.

00:25:19   No, that's the wrong way around. No.

00:25:24   So, yeah, it's, anyway, it was fun. It was, people really vied for it. It was a marketing

00:25:33   thing. They could put any winner on their boxes.

00:25:37   Did that help, do you know? Like, did that actually help these companies?

00:25:41   Who could tell? I think it was generally part of the marketing story was, "This is an

00:25:46   award winner. This got a rate." Ratings were the same way, right? Five mice or five

00:25:51   stars from Macworld or whatever back in the day. And the awards, it's all cumulative,

00:25:55   but there was a time when things were boxed and then even in the latter day just went

00:25:58   on their websites to say that this is a legitimately beloved piece of software. I mean, people

00:26:04   liked it. They also really liked the recognition. I mean, I still hear from people who got those

00:26:09   Eddie trophies and just they love them. And especially the smaller developers having that,

00:26:15   it's like that's their chance to win an Oscar. I mean, the Apple Design Award is the only

00:26:19   thing left like that I would say in our industry.

00:26:23   Maybe I actually haven't gotten around to sending out the rosettes for the upgradees

00:26:29   of this year so maybe I should do that. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised and everyone

00:26:35   will be very excited to receive their upgradees. The only person that has received their upgradees

00:26:41   so far is Casey for ATP. Casey was very excited because he also took the one of the, you know,

00:26:49   the one that we went for, I think it was, was it Most Disappointing or something like

00:26:54   that. One of the awards that we gave was something that he suggested. So he thought he won two

00:26:57   upgradeys for some reason. Because that's just Casey.

00:27:01   Yeah, he didn't. He didn't. But he was influential. He was an influential thought leader, an influencer

00:27:07   in the upgradey's process.

00:27:08   It's a two-time winner of an upgradey. So it doesn't need to be so greedy. Upgreedy.

00:27:14   That's what we call people that are multiple winners. Upgreedies. This is getting very

00:27:20   convoluted. Jason, how was your 2015?

00:27:23   Yeah, I put this in the document. It's our little mini thing. I wanted to ask you how

00:27:28   you're... It's the beginning of a new year. I think it's worth a moment of reflection.

00:27:34   My 2050 was pretty great. This was my first year as a completely independent worker. First

00:27:42   complete year. And I think it went pretty well. I learned a lot. There are plenty of

00:27:49   things to improve on, but I was taking a walk with my wife. We were walking the dog last

00:27:54   night just before the rain started. And we were talking about looking at the finances

00:28:02   and doing the books from last year and all those things. And, you know, it struck me

00:28:06   that you go into something like this and you have hopes and you think that they're legitimate

00:28:12   and based on reality, but you never know. And we came through the year and said, "Oh,

00:28:19   look, we didn't have to sell our house and move into the countryside and raid the children's

00:28:27   college savings account and things like that. We did it and it worked and there's no guarantee

00:28:36   for 2016, but in 2015 I was able to transition to not getting paid by an employer and stay

00:28:43   afloat and that was great. And then on the podcast side, I haven't counted how many podcasts

00:28:51   I did in 2015, which I'd like to do. The Incomparable as a network did 480 some episodes in 2014,

00:28:59   2015. That's 1.2 episodes a day or something like that. And I calculated out 17 days of

00:29:08   content that were posted on the Incomparable network in 2015. And then there's, you know,

00:29:15   Lift Off and Clockwise and Upgrade over here that I was involved with, but I'm not involved

00:29:18   with all of the shows over on "Incomparable." So that part I haven't figured out yet, but

00:29:23   it was a very productive year. And one of the reasons I do that end of the year show

00:29:27   for "Incomparable" is that it's kind of fun to take a moment and look back and say, "Yeah,

00:29:31   we did a bunch of stuff this year." It goes by in a blur. And I think it's good to stop

00:29:36   and say, at some point it's good to stop and reflect on what's happened. Otherwise, I think

00:29:46   you miss it. You miss that it's very easy to downplay accomplishments and meeting goals

00:29:51   because you're moving on to the next thing. And so taking a, you know, when you get to

00:29:54   the top of the mountain to take a breath and look around before you proceed down the mountain

00:29:59   or up to the next mountain, I think it's a good thing.

00:30:02   I had a pretty great year. I ticked off a bunch of bucket list items, which is kind

00:30:09   of awesome. Like I gave my first conference talk at release notes, which I was really

00:30:14   proud of. I think it went really well. We got a couple of links from Daring Fireball,

00:30:20   which is something I've always wanted. And Jon linked a couple of episodes of this show,

00:30:25   mainly just me and you complaining, which I do enjoy quite a lot with you, in case the

00:30:33   listeners hadn't noticed that already. The business has done really well. We had a great,

00:30:39   We had a fantastic year.

00:30:43   We grew so fast and we did so much new stuff.

00:30:48   We brought on, I mean our roster of hosts,

00:30:52   or our hosta as I was gonna call them.

00:30:54   - Yeah, hosta of roasts.

00:30:55   - Our hosta of roasts right now is superb.

00:30:58   I'm so proud of the amount of people that we have

00:31:01   and all the people that put their trust in me and Steven

00:31:05   to host their content on our lovely home.

00:31:08   I couldn't be happier with 2015. I know that I want 2016 to have the same kind of feeling

00:31:15   that I'm very happy about, but for the love of all that is holy, I cannot take the amount

00:31:23   of work again, because I don't think I would be able to cope with it. We couldn't be twice

00:31:28   the size that we are already, it just wouldn't scale. So 2016 for me, in a lot of ways, is

00:31:36   about like scaling back and looking at time and trying to analyze it a bit better. I've

00:31:43   made some changes to my schedule, like inquisitive has gone away, upgrade is every two weeks.

00:31:49   Not upgrade, analog, sorry, it's a terrible way to tell you, analog is every two weeks.

00:31:53   No!

00:31:54   Yes, analog is fortnightly, it's joining Liftoff as an excellent fortnightly series, upgrade

00:31:59   remains weekly. Unless we decide to do the MacPower users thing and just do a fifth episode

00:32:03   out of spite or something.

00:32:05   But we're not gonna do that.

00:32:06   But you know, so I'm that's kind of what my 2016 goal is is about like using my time more effectively because

00:32:13   2015 was such a great foundation

00:32:15   Yeah, I can now build on that going for well. Yeah, and you guys with relay you guys built the business

00:32:21   And dealing with growth is a I mean that's a challenge with all businesses

00:32:25   And you know you did a lot of this stuff you and Steven with your own

00:32:29   You know with your own two hands and at some point you have to either manage the growth

00:32:33   growth, you have to pick your spots, or you have to, or you have to, well, manage the

00:32:39   growth. You have to figure out a way to grow without just using the power of your own will

00:32:44   and Steven's own will because you will run out of that. And so you got to start to use

00:32:49   it wisely and, and, and yeah, it's a, it's a challenge, but it's a good kind of challenge.

00:32:55   It's a good kind of challenge to have to see how, how well Relay has done. That's been

00:32:58   one of my highlights I would say of 2015 too is getting to be a part of that process and

00:33:04   talk to you guys and work with you guys about how you're growing Relay. That's been a lot

00:33:08   of fun too. So I've got podcast networks to the left of me and to the right of me, but

00:33:13   it's been fun. Stuck in the middle with Dan. With podcasts. An interesting thing happened

00:33:21   a couple of days ago that is definitely sitting quite beautifully within your wheelhouse and

00:33:27   And that is Twitter for Mac got updated.

00:33:30   I lost that bet.

00:33:32   I should have made a bet with somebody, well I shouldn't have, about somebody could have

00:33:36   come to me and said, "I bet you by the end of the year there'll be a major update for

00:33:38   Twitter for Mac."

00:33:39   And I would have laughed and laughed and laughed and then lost a lot of money.

00:33:43   December 30th.

00:33:44   Yeah, they slid it out there at the end.

00:33:47   It almost felt contractual, like, for some reason.

00:33:51   And there were, there was, it's not even a rumor.

00:33:53   I've had several people say it's not, it's not a rumor, it's true.

00:33:57   was a third-party developer who was contracted to do this app by Twitter.

00:34:01   Twitter didn't want to use their own internal developers.

00:34:03   And people were complaining about that.

00:34:05   I don't know, that sounds actually kind of brilliant to me.

00:34:07   I mean, if Twitter had a whole team of iOS developers and couldn't really -- or of Mac

00:34:12   developers and couldn't do it, if Twitter's internal development processes are falling

00:34:17   apart for a lot of this client stuff, then taking the money they'd spend on internal

00:34:23   developers and hiring a developer shop to do it for them, it's not necessarily a bad

00:34:30   idea. And apparently that's what they did. There was a rumor that it was BlackPixel,

00:34:34   I don't know if that's true, but they do a lot of contract work that they can't talk

00:34:36   about because it's for clients, so it wouldn't shock me for clients who want to not talk

00:34:41   about who built their app for them. But it definitely seems like it was an outside developer

00:34:45   of some sort. And I think it's an interesting move. I wrote a piece on six colors that we

00:34:51   can put in the show notes about it. I think it's fascinating because it's got some things

00:34:55   that feel very new, and then it also has some, it has bugs and weird interface things, and

00:35:02   so my initial thoughts about it were very much like, it's great that there's a new version,

00:35:07   it's got a lot of problems, I hope that they're going to do updates from now on. That's my

00:35:11   big fear with it, is that they put it out the door, and especially if this is a contract

00:35:16   job that they walk away.

00:35:18   I have a super weird theory about this app, which is very strange and I can't really reconcile

00:35:28   in my brain why it would work this way, but it definitely seems that way.

00:35:32   Is that even though Twitter has outsourced this application directly, it's the new Twitter

00:35:37   for Mac, that it seems to be using the API that all other third party developers have

00:35:41   access to.

00:35:42   because it doesn't have any of the first party features like polls, cards, hash flags, this

00:35:47   was pointed out by Jeremy from Emojipedia. I saw him tweet it today, like it seems like

00:35:53   they have the same limitations.

00:35:54   I think that's not entirely accurate because the notifications tab has all of that activity

00:36:01   that you see on Twitter that I believe you can't access via the standard API.

00:36:06   There's a way to build it though, because Tweetbot did. I mean, and I think that they

00:36:10   They have some server infrastructure in place now to manage all of that, but...

00:36:14   But I think it's not...

00:36:15   I don't know.

00:36:17   My impression is that there's more detail in the notifications tab than is available

00:36:21   to a standard third-party app.

00:36:24   But yeah, it's possible.

00:36:25   Well, let's just call out the irony of the fact that Twitter killed third-party apps

00:36:30   or tried to kill them slowly over time by all of their restrictions, and then they went

00:36:36   to a third-party developer to develop their app.

00:36:38   How about that?

00:36:39   is, there is a kind of a precedent being set now in which it looks like they are attempting

00:36:44   to undo some of that.

00:36:46   Also, one of the reports that we saw from people who say that they know, people who

00:36:49   used to work at Twitter, that I saw kind of stream by on Twitter, is that this was a back

00:36:54   and forth inside Twitter. Like, let's not do a Mac app. You know, let's not update it

00:36:58   anymore. No, let's do it. No, let's not do it. No, let's do it. There was a lot of back

00:37:02   and forth about this. And what I wrote on Macworld, and I don't know whether they saw

00:37:08   and I don't know whether that was just one little added poke at them along with all the

00:37:13   other ones they were feeling or not. As a writer, I kind of assume that although people

00:37:17   can see my stuff, it very rarely has an impact on decision-making.

00:37:21   Yeah, I mean, you don't want to start thinking that way because then you end up with an ego

00:37:25   that's too big to fit for the front door.

00:37:27   Exactly right. So I don't know, but I will say, so with no linkage intended here at all,

00:37:33   What I wrote was that Twitter either needs to embrace their job as a steward of their

00:37:38   platform on various operating systems, or it needs to get the hell out of the way and

00:37:43   let third parties—because, you know, there are third parties who will be happy to make

00:37:48   great Mac apps, and some already exist, for Twitter.

00:37:52   I know you don't like it, but the tweetbot for the Mac is fantastic.

00:37:55   It's very impressive.

00:37:56   And you know what?

00:37:57   I love Twitterific on iOS, and the reason there isn't a great version of Twitterific

00:38:01   on the Mac, and it's just the old version that's been around forever, is because of

00:38:05   what Twitter did to the developers. That Icon Factory can't bother to invest in it because

00:38:13   it's not worth it to them because of what's happened. So, you know, again, pick one. Either

00:38:18   make a world-class, amazingly good Mac app, or just let the developers make good Mac apps,

00:38:24   because they already are. Just get out of the way, let them make some money, let them

00:38:27   follow your guidelines. And so I don't think that this release of Twitter for Mac 4.0 really

00:38:34   tells us anything. It's a mystery. Like, is this a commitment or is this like a last gasp?

00:38:40   Are there going to be bug fix updates ongoing? Because this is a good start. They have some

00:38:45   design issues. I mean, I wrote about it in that piece that we linked to that I mentioned

00:38:50   earlier. It's really spacey. It's got lots of white space. And given that two-thirds

00:38:57   of the Macs that are out there are laptops, that seems like a mistake to just take up

00:39:01   huge amounts of space. The tweets are huge, the space between the little icons and the

00:39:06   toolbar is huge. There's some fundamental bugs like you can set notifications about

00:39:13   whether you want to see it when there are new tweets in your timeline or just replies

00:39:16   or something like that, but they aren't honored by the accounts in the sidebar. You know,

00:39:20   there's a bunch of weird things that, again, if this is the beginning of ongoing development

00:39:25   of Twitter for Mac is fine. But I'm not, we'll have to see. I'm not sure given the stories here

00:39:33   that that's true because if it's an outsourced thing, is Twitter paying that company to continue

00:39:39   developing it? Is that part of the story? The fact that it got kind of slid out at the end of the

00:39:43   year makes me a little concerned that perhaps it is a contractual thing, like it needed to ship

00:39:50   in 2015 for contract reasons or for payment reasons, tax reasons, I don't even know. Maybe

00:39:57   it's a coincidence, but I'm not convinced that this is a commitment to the Mac by Twitter,

00:40:02   and it gets us back to what we've been talking about throughout 2015, which is what's the

00:40:07   commitment level here, because Twitter, for me, I have to use an app to use Twitter, and

00:40:13   I'm at my Mac a lot. And so I'm not going to just keep it in a web page. It's not going

00:40:19   to happen. That's why I don't use Facebook, is that I'm not going to keep loading Facebook

00:40:24   in a webpage, so I go to it occasionally. I don't know. I don't know. It's weird. It's

00:40:29   a weird story. It continues to be weird, what Twitter is. So I'd like a clear signal from

00:40:36   Twitter and maybe this is it, but we won't really know until we see whether this thing

00:40:40   sits for a year or whether it gets updates every month or two. It doesn't have all those

00:40:48   things though. It does have, I mean, let's, it doesn't have polls and cards and things

00:40:52   like that, but it does have like native, native tweet, quoting and support for animations

00:41:00   and videos, things that are not new features on Twitter, but that the Twitter for Mac app

00:41:05   didn't support. So it does actually support a whole bunch of Twitter features that were

00:41:10   not previously supported. But then there are all these other features that it doesn't support

00:41:14   and Jeremy's right. It's the stuff that basically just renders in web views and is not in any

00:41:24   of the apps.

00:41:25   >> So I have like, when I look at this, I see that this is a sign of Twitter deciding

00:41:32   that they are going to do something because you're not going to, well, I mean, who knows,

00:41:37   but you'd like to think they're not going to pay the amount of money, which is probably

00:41:40   a large amount of money to have this thing built if it just is this is all it is and

00:41:45   there probably is an element of updating that is going to be required and the reason that

00:41:50   I look at this and can see that it came out in the way that it did is this project's been

00:41:54   in the works for an amount of time and there was a contractual agreement to have it something

00:41:58   out before the end of the year and that's why it's the way it is because it is in some

00:42:04   ways regressing from the previous app like in bugs and stuff like that yeah and a lot

00:42:09   of them are like, just having a look at some of the stuff. Like I've included a link in

00:42:14   the show notes to Federico's piece on Mac stories and he includes some tweets and vines

00:42:17   from people who were finding bugs. And they're just bugs you'd find using the app. So I mean,

00:42:23   I look at this and I'm like, no, this is probably the start of ongoing development of the Mac

00:42:27   app, but there needed to be something before the end of the year. Because December 30th

00:42:32   is a really weird time to release something.

00:42:35   It feels like a beta to me. I mean, it just, it feels like a beta. There's a lot of weird

00:42:39   things about it, that it feels like a beta, and that's not bad for it to be a beta, but

00:42:45   it's not played as a beta. It'll auto-update. If you've got auto-update Mac App Store stuff

00:42:51   turned on, your old Twitter app will just disappear and be replaced by this new thing

00:42:55   that does not work at all like the old thing. And our friend Will Run For Fun in the chatroom

00:43:01   says, you know, "Why even have an app? They don't make a Windows app. I just use the web

00:43:05   or tweetbot. Well, like I said, I think using the web is not a good enough thing for a lot

00:43:09   of people on the desktop because I think personally, I think using the web for Twitter sucks and

00:43:15   I would like it in an app. But that's my larger point here is I'm okay with Twitter saying,

00:43:22   you know what? We're not going to do apps on PCs, on Mac and Windows. We're not going

00:43:28   to bother. But if they do that, I would like them to also say, it's a third party opportunity.

00:43:34   We have a new developer relation. They can sell their apps. Here's what they have to

00:43:38   do. The token limits are lifted. Go to town. We're happy to have third parties who want

00:43:46   to be our partners on platforms that we're not supporting, but we're going to focus on

00:43:49   iOS and Android. I'd be fine with that, but that's not what we have. We have a mystery

00:43:55   about what will be the new direction of Twitter and what does this app mean? Is it a commitment

00:44:01   to supporting more on the Mac or is it sort of a last gasp? We don't know.

00:44:08   Yeah, I don't know. I would like to see them at least do what you said. Like just

00:44:14   say like you got the web or this third parties. Like that just makes more sense

00:44:18   to me like why are Twitter bothering? Why are they bothering to make desktop apps?

00:44:23   I don't actually don't understand what the point of this app is. So just use

00:44:27   the web, right? And if you don't want to use the web go to a third party and they

00:44:30   should be embracing that. I'm okay with that. I actually think, yes, if I was managing at

00:44:36   Twitter that's probably what I would suggest. I would say, you know what, mobile is super

00:44:41   important and growing. Traditional computers, not so much. And we're on the web there. Our

00:44:48   web client will always be, you know, our web page will always be fine. And there are developers

00:44:54   who are dying to develop for those platforms, for Mac and Windows and whatever, Linux too.

00:44:59   anything you can find over there, just let them.

00:45:03   Let's let them.

00:45:04   Let's revise our developer guidelines,

00:45:07   set some rules in place, let them go to town.

00:45:09   It'll be good for us, it'll be good for the users

00:45:11   on those platforms and we'll be done.

00:45:12   And if we wanna keep a tight grip on,

00:45:15   or a tighter grip on mobile,

00:45:16   because it's so important to us going forward, fine.

00:45:21   Make that call.

00:45:22   But right now it's just a mystery.

00:45:24   And somebody actually asked in the chat room,

00:45:26   stoic squirrel, excellent username by the way, are the token limits still in place?

00:45:31   And I think my answer is as far as we know, Twitter has made no announcement saying we

00:45:35   take it all back, developers do whatever you want or that I haven't seen anything about

00:45:41   that. It wouldn't surprise me if Twitter has sent signals to some iOS and Mac app developers

00:45:51   that the rules are flexible. It wouldn't surprise me, I don't know that, I haven't talked to

00:45:54   any of them about it.

00:45:55   They've been blogging recently and basically what they've said is that "we hear you" about

00:46:06   that. That's what they said, like "we understand about the token limits, we get that, we know

00:46:12   it's a problem, we hear you." So they're not ignoring it.

00:46:17   It implies they're working on something but haven't made an announcement about it yet.

00:46:22   And that's fine. I suspected for a while now that there's some relationships at play here,

00:46:30   like Twitterific as an innovator and the inventor of the bluebird to represent Twitter and the

00:46:37   inventor of the word tweet. I get the impression that they have some special relationship with

00:46:42   Twitter right down to the fact that they get to use the word Twitter in their app name

00:46:45   and that hasn't gone away. But I don't know, you know, that may be a very limited thing.

00:46:52   Who knows? I mean, how can you have a relationship with a company that keeps having all of these

00:46:56   changes in direction and in management too?

00:46:59   So…

00:47:00   David Pembroke Your relationship is purely a contract, which

00:47:02   was a legal thing that you both agreed to, and that's that. That's what that relationship

00:47:05   was like.

00:47:06   Tim Cynova Probably so. So we'll see. We'll see. We'll

00:47:09   how it goes. Anyway, I'm using it. I don't love it. I might use Tweetbot instead, although

00:47:16   I have issues with Tweetbot too, so we'll see. We'll see. I'm using it to get used to

00:47:21   it and see. I want to use it enough that a lot of the newness of it sort of fades away

00:47:25   and then I can decide whether I like it or not. But I do have Tweetbot, and it's an option.

00:47:32   They are, whilst they have shown in the past that they can be slow in certain areas, tapbots

00:47:39   are committed to the app and have shown that in a way that Twitter currently haven't.

00:47:45   No.

00:47:46   And maybe they need a bit more time and it will be absolutely great.

00:47:50   But right now I think it's too early to say, "Oh, this is perfect.

00:47:53   This is what I want."

00:47:54   Oh, and I should say people also bring up TweetDeck, which is also done by Twitter.

00:47:59   TweetDeck is good for certain people who have very specific needs.

00:48:05   You got that big Twitter dashboard that you're looking at because you're doing lots of stuff.

00:48:09   But as a kind of day, the way I use Twitter, which is a little thing on the side of my

00:48:14   screen that I can scroll through and then go back to what I'm working on, TweetDeck

00:48:19   doesn't work for me. And also I'm offended by the fact that it's got that multi-column

00:48:22   interface but because it's essentially a web page in disguise. I've said this before, I'll

00:48:27   it again, you know, it doesn't snap to the columns. So, you know, you can't, if you set

00:48:34   it to be like the width of one column, the scrolling, like it doesn't scroll to the next

00:48:39   column, it doesn't set it to two columns. It sort of just is this continuum of various

00:48:45   columns that you can scroll across. I don't know. It's not a good Mac app. It's kind of

00:48:50   a fake Mac app and it's good for people who want to do what it provides, but I don't think

00:48:55   it's a, I don't think it's a good client. There's somebody, I think one of the writers

00:48:59   from The Verge said they should just kill the Twitter app and focus on, on, on the,

00:49:07   what were we just talking about? I've lost the name. There's so many tweets and twits

00:49:10   and bots now.

00:49:11   >> TweetDeck?

00:49:12   >> TweetDeck, decks. Focus on TweetDeck. I'm like, no, TweetDeck is like a pro social media

00:49:18   maven kind of tool. It is not a, it is not a regular person app.

00:49:24   I do agree with that though. I do think they should just kill the Mac app, work on TweetDeck

00:49:28   and give the like the reins of the standard Mac app over to third parties.

00:49:32   That would be fine with me. Because TweetDeck could be a lot more than

00:49:35   it is. Like Twitter could own the market of the professional tools. There are a couple

00:49:40   of other tools, I think Radian6 is one that is like a one of these social media management

00:49:49   Twitter should build that, right, and sell that to people, like rather than what Hootsuite

00:49:55   does and companies like that. Twitter should make that and that's what TweetDeck should

00:49:58   be. And so I think they should put their efforts into that and just let Tweetbot and IconFactory

00:50:05   make the Mac app.

00:50:06   Yeah. Yeah. And there are some others out there I know that people like that are other

00:50:11   Twitter clients that are third parties. It's fine. I think that's what we all want and

00:50:18   I don't know whether that's the best thing for Twitter or not, but it would seem to me,

00:50:22   other than the fact that they have to create new guidelines and they have to maintain an

00:50:25   API and a relationship with third parties, although they're already sort of doing that,

00:50:30   they would have to put some effort perhaps into opening new API stuff for their new features

00:50:35   when they roll out. But that seems like it should be job one, right? Here's a new feature

00:50:40   and the API that goes with it. Maybe they don't do it for experimental features like

00:50:46   polls which I think is still an experiment and doesn't work very well and might be a

00:50:50   bad idea. I don't know. We'll see what they do but that would be, I think that would be

00:50:56   the best thing for them to do is on platforms where they don't care, just let the people

00:51:00   who care work on it and it benefits Twitter in the end because people are using their

00:51:03   service.

00:51:04   Just make everybody see your ads man, everyone's happy.

00:51:07   Yep.

00:51:08   Well maybe not everybody's happy but I think you get my point. CES is this week.

00:51:13   Yep.

00:51:14   We're kind of approaching day one.

00:51:16   You going to CES, Myke?

00:51:18   Not this time.

00:51:20   I'm not either.

00:51:22   I think we spoke about this last year.

00:51:24   You've been to CES a few times.

00:51:26   I've put a link to a post from The Verge where they're talking about the trends that should be expected this time around.

00:51:34   Cars are probably going to be the biggest one.

00:51:36   And there's something that I'm very interested in.

00:51:40   There are big rumors that in Ford's press conference, which is some point over the next

00:51:45   couple of days, they're going to be announcing a partnership with Google to build autonomous

00:51:50   cars.

00:51:51   This is heavily rumored and would be very, very interesting if that is coming to pass.

00:51:56   It would mean Google is first.

00:51:58   There was a story today that GM has invested a gajillion dollars into Lyft to help them

00:52:04   build autonomous cars.

00:52:06   It's definitely the thing.

00:52:07   2016 it's gonna be the year of the autonomous car. They're not gonna be out

00:52:11   but there's gonna be a lot of news about them. I think that's that's gonna be the

00:52:14   biggest trend this year. And so yeah just CES is coming. I've never been right I

00:52:20   know you have. I would like to do it one day just to see it. I just want to see

00:52:26   what CES looks like. It's a really big trade show and a big parking lot and

00:52:33   and packed with people and lots of electronics and you know it yeah that's what it is if you

00:52:40   like crowds and lots of weird crappy stuff in aisle by aisle after aisle and then other places

00:52:49   where it's just wall-to-wall TVs CES is the place for you because it's got all that stuff

00:52:55   I hate it but you know I can tell I hate it I mean it's just a spectacle that I've always

00:52:59   It is a spectacle.

00:53:00   …has seen from afar and have therefore been kind of just a little bit interested in what

00:53:05   it is, you know?

00:53:06   I'm just like curious to see what CES actually looks and feels like.

00:53:12   But not needing…

00:53:13   I mean, I think it would be different going and not being in the situation of being forced

00:53:17   to go to cover it.

00:53:18   Like, I would be going out of choice.

00:53:19   Right.

00:53:20   I think it might be a little bit easier for me if I did decide to do it.

00:53:23   I am considering it for next year.

00:53:25   Just to see.

00:53:26   So what I would say is though that if you go you you're gonna have to cover it right if you go you're going to

00:53:31   Have to bring a microphone or a little podcast setup and do some interviews and have it be live from CES on relay

00:53:38   I think you would need to do it that way. Yeah, but so you know, but it's it's yeah, it's it's fine

00:53:44   It's it's a it's news that has to be covered and that's why we always covered it. I find it very low

00:53:49   Low content for the effort, but if you target it if you've got your meetings with you with vendors

00:53:56   meetings with vendors who are announcing products is valuable at CES. Actually, I will say,

00:54:02   look at me, I'm saying something positive about CES. If you line all that up, because

00:54:06   there are major announcements that are made there. And so if you've got that stuff, that's

00:54:09   good stuff. The problem is if you end up wandering the show floor looking for things, because

00:54:14   there's very little, there's a lot of junk, and then there's diamonds in the rough, but

00:54:19   the return on your investment for that, for the grind, and I hate wandering in crowds,

00:54:25   especially like, um, like trade show crowds. Cause they don't,

00:54:29   people are stopping everywhere and,

00:54:30   and they stop right in front of you and you're going to barrel into them and

00:54:34   people don't behave like normal human beings when they're at a trade show. Um,

00:54:39   that's, that's just, it's awful. It's a waste of time to do that. But there,

00:54:42   there was a lot of good news that comes out of CES and uh, and so that's,

00:54:47   that's for me, that's the difference is I actually think if you go there for the

00:54:50   spectacle, you will be much more let down than if you go there, uh,

00:54:54   with a lot of meetings and know what you're covering

00:54:59   if you're covering the event.

00:55:01   Anyway, well, the best way to appreciate CES is from afar

00:55:06   because you get to see the announcements

00:55:09   that are interesting.

00:55:10   It's nice for large portions

00:55:12   of the consumer electronics industry

00:55:13   to make all their press releases drop in a few days

00:55:16   because there's a big load of news and that's nice.

00:55:20   Very little phone stuff gets announced there though

00:55:22   because that all gets announced at Mobile World Congress

00:55:24   in Barcelona instead in a month and a half

00:55:28   or something like that.

00:55:29   So, but it's good to watch it from afar.

00:55:32   And I've already seen, there was some news today

00:55:34   about TiVo doing an Apple Watch app

00:55:38   that they appear to be announcing.

00:55:40   And that you speaking of Ford,

00:55:42   it sounds like a Ford Sync 3 system

00:55:44   that's their in-car entertainment system

00:55:46   is gonna support Android Auto and CarPlay.

00:55:49   So all the Ford cars with that entertainment system

00:55:54   next year at some point will support

00:55:58   both Android Auto and CarPlay, which is kind of cool.

00:56:00   So there's stuff like that that will happen

00:56:02   over the course of this week.

00:56:03   There'll be some really great news

00:56:05   mixed in with all the crazy stuff.

00:56:07   - Yeah, there is some cool stuff that comes out of CES,

00:56:11   right, that's just one of the things

00:56:13   that will happen this week.

00:56:14   You're right, like a lot of the other types of things now,

00:56:18   like Mobile World Congress and things that,

00:56:19   and shows like that, are splintering it a bit,

00:56:23   which is making things different.

00:56:26   - And individual announcements,

00:56:27   I think I mentioned this last year when we talked about it,

00:56:29   is a lot of the major vendors realized

00:56:31   that they could do what Apple does,

00:56:33   which is call an event and get people to come and cover it.

00:56:37   - Own your own stage and your own environment

00:56:39   and your own timeline. - And you're the only news

00:56:40   of the day, you're the only news that day,

00:56:42   where CES, it's so easy to get lost in CES.

00:56:45   So if you're Microsoft or Amazon or Google,

00:56:49   then you just don't, or Samsung even,

00:56:53   you know, you just don't do it.

00:56:55   You wait. - Yeah, that was the big news

00:56:56   a few years ago, wasn't it,

00:56:57   that Microsoft pulled out,

00:57:02   'cause they always used to open CES, didn't they?

00:57:04   - Yeah, yeah, for a long time,

00:57:05   it was really the Bill Gates show at CES.

00:57:07   That's what it was, was it was a Wintel kind of event.

00:57:11   It was what are Microsoft and Intel doing?

00:57:14   and it was a big PC show.

00:57:16   And it's not that much anymore either.

00:57:19   There are PC guys are there too,

00:57:20   but a lot of TVs, some cars.

00:57:23   I mean, it's really like eight trade shows in one.

00:57:25   There's so many different things there.

00:57:27   And a lot of it is not for the press or general consumer,

00:57:30   it's for distributors to pick up products

00:57:33   and distribute them in various markets.

00:57:35   And so that stuff is less interesting to everyone else too.

00:57:39   But yeah, if you're Microsoft, you just hold an event now

00:57:43   and you don't need to bother with CES. There will be some keynotes and things at CES where

00:57:48   they're using the platform to get things out, but you know, that's the beauty of it. If

00:57:52   you're Microsoft or Google and you've got a big thing to do, you've got your own shows

00:57:55   to do it, or you've got your own, you can call an event to do it.

00:57:58   - Do you reckon Apple are going to announce anything this week? They always do something

00:58:02   in the past, they always have done something during CES week just to prove a point, I think.

00:58:08   It's possible. It's possible. I don't know. We would find out Tuesday, probably. That's

00:58:14   usually when they do those press release announcements. I don't know. I don't know. They may be moving

00:58:20   away from that game, too. They did a lot last quarter, so maybe we're in a little quiet

00:58:24   period for Apple here.

00:58:25   That has got to be something. It's a fun thing to do, right? People are announcing stuff.

00:58:30   You announce one piddly little thing, and it takes all the news away for an afternoon.

00:58:34   It's true.

00:58:35   I mean that is such fun.

00:58:37   I would be surprised if they stopped doing it but if they haven't got anything to announce

00:58:42   then they can't announce anything.

00:58:43   But we'll see.

00:58:45   Alright, are you ready for some Ask Upgrade?

00:58:48   I am.

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01:00:47   show Squarespace.

01:00:49   beautiful. James wrote in, he loved our discussion about the iPad Pro. We did mention, I want

01:01:00   to say this a little bit earlier on, I don't want to talk about it yet because I think

01:01:04   we've killed people with iPad Pro talk, but I really want to talk about at some point

01:01:09   just how big a difference this device is making to the way that I work.

01:01:15   We'll do a check in, I think giving it some time, not only giving people a little break

01:01:18   from it but giving some time for both of us to spend with it is going to be helpful.

01:01:22   I just want to say this, I want to make this bold claim, the iPad Pro is the best thing

01:01:26   Apple did in 2015.

01:01:28   Didn't we give it an upgrade-y?

01:01:29   No. We didn't have that category. I mean, we gave it a category for our favorite thing,

01:01:37   right?

01:01:38   Yeah.

01:01:39   But I just think flat out, the iPad Pro is the best thing that they did and it's very

01:01:43   surprising.

01:01:44   James said, "He feels that something that we missed on iOS is that you can't tag

01:01:49   photos with faces and keywords and stuff like that, and that is making it harder

01:01:54   for him to use photos on iOS as compared to the Mac where he gets access to all

01:01:58   of these features. And as I have called you many times, you are the Photos app

01:02:02   man. What is your opinion about this?" Well, he's right. It's a limitation of

01:02:08   photos for iOS that's not there in the Mac. There are a few things going on

01:02:11   here. The keywords thing, I think that's a good point. There are UI questions about how

01:02:15   you keyword batches of photos or individual photos and are you doing that on your phone,

01:02:21   but are you doing that on an iPad? Maybe you are. Having features missing from photos on

01:02:28   iOS is an issue if they're on photos from Mac. The faces thing is interesting and it

01:02:35   goes back to the way that Apple is handling face data. Apple isn't syncing face data.

01:02:41   They say that's a consequence of their commitment to privacy issues, that they don't want sort

01:02:45   of facial recognition information being available publicly.

01:02:49   It stays on your Mac, and all that really gets tagged when you do iCloud Photo Library

01:02:55   is who are the faces in the individual photos, but the facial recognition engine isn't in

01:03:03   the cloud, it's on the Mac.

01:03:05   So the question is, one, could they put that on the iPad or on iOS in general?

01:03:10   probably could, but you go back to UI issues and are people going to be tagging faces on

01:03:17   iOS or not? And then there's that question of syncing. I think Apple feels like they

01:03:24   benefit from the most common use case being that you've got a Mac and iOS devices and

01:03:28   there's the one Mac and that's where the facial recognition database lives, and it gets much

01:03:32   more complicated when you have other devices that are also trying to run the facial recognition

01:03:36   database. So I think it's a complicated problem and I'm not quite sure what the

01:03:41   solution is, whether it's moving it to the cloud or coming up with some other

01:03:47   way for these devices to interact with the facial data. But it's true, over time

01:03:53   you would like those features on the Mac to also be on iOS, and they aren't.

01:04:01   I don't—I still have a Mac, so it doesn't bother me too much, and I don't use those

01:04:08   features very often. But if you were trying to go iPad-only, and I think that that's not

01:04:13   unreasonable, especially if the thing that is important to you is photos, that it might be an

01:04:18   issue. That's it. I mean, it's a naughty problem, and I don't know whether they're going to solve it

01:04:22   this year or not, because Apple knows how often people use faces and keywords in photos,

01:04:29   photos, and they may figure that that's a power user feature that they're comfortable

01:04:33   not ever putting on iOS. I don't know. When you look at the competition, Google gets to

01:04:37   do a lot of really great things by having brains in the cloud working on this stuff,

01:04:41   right? So, you know, that's my gut feeling is that maybe somebody at Apple should make

01:04:46   the argument that moving some of the face recognition stuff up into iCloud might be

01:04:51   valuable, but that would only be for people who are using iCloud Photo Library. So, I

01:04:56   I don't know.

01:04:57   I don't know.

01:04:58   It's a hard one.

01:04:59   I think that's why it's not there,

01:05:00   is that this is a difficult problem

01:05:01   because of where faces started, which was on the Mac.

01:05:04   - Listen to Nick Roten.

01:05:07   Is the iPad Pro comfortable to use all day?

01:05:09   Do you use it flat or propped up on a stand?

01:05:11   Do you ever saw an act from looking down?

01:05:12   So using the iPad Pro more, more than my iMac now,

01:05:17   is basically meaning that I work

01:05:22   from comfortable locations now.

01:05:24   I work from the sofa a lot.

01:05:26   I work from comfortable chairs, I work in bed, I just have the thing on my lap with

01:05:30   the smart keyboard.

01:05:31   That tends to be how I work now.

01:05:35   Yeah, I've been, yeah, so I'll use it on the couch and when I'm having my first cup of

01:05:47   tea in the morning in bed, and then the other time that I'll use it, I'll sometimes use

01:05:51   it sitting at my dining room table with a stand, and sometimes I'll use it standing

01:05:55   with the iPad on the bar in the kitchen, which is a nice sort of standing configuration.

01:06:04   And that's mostly where I'm using it now. I have a sit-stand desk here that I could

01:06:07   put it on, but I tend not to use—I've got the computer out here. If I want to work out

01:06:12   in the garage, I will use the computer. But if I go in the house, what I do is I use the

01:06:16   iPad and not bring in a laptop and it's a nice change of scenery and so that's, you

01:06:22   know, that works for me. If I was, I think that that's the beauty of the iPad Pro is

01:06:28   I'm not using it in one location all day. I'm moving around with it. I'll be at the

01:06:32   desk or I'll be at the table, then I'll be up at the bar, then I'll be on the couch,

01:06:36   then I'll go back to the table, I'll kind of move around and I think that's one of the

01:06:41   things that appeals about it.

01:06:43   Definitely. Listen to Luke, "Might DVR capabilities be the reason for Apple's poorly explained

01:06:49   fourth-gen TV storage options?"

01:06:52   I don't think so because first off I think that Apple doesn't want to make a DVR.

01:06:57   Yeah I think even when they do whatever it is that they do it will be like Netflix. It

01:07:02   won't be like TiVo.

01:07:04   It's all going to be streaming and if you want to do, maybe there'll be a buffer, a

01:07:09   stream buffer if you've got a live TV service there'll be a stream buffer or maybe it's

01:07:13   a maybe the buffer lives on the server right and you you can back through that

01:07:18   that buffer that exists on the server for the live channel you're watching but

01:07:22   I expected to be very much like the BBC I player you can watch live and then

01:07:27   everything else just goes into a catch-up catalog exactly and and so

01:07:31   Apple's not gonna build something with a cable card and there's something like

01:07:35   that for the US cable market it's not gonna happen and HD video is is enormous

01:07:40   So other than caches, the Apple TV doesn't have the capacity to store

01:07:46   anything meaningful. My TiVo has like a 4 terabyte hard drive in it.

01:07:50   It's, yeah, the Apple TV is not going to be able to handle it, and it's not built to.

01:07:57   It's built for a world where everything is available streaming, and you stream your video when you want to watch it.

01:08:04   Yep. I think that's what's gonna happen. Yep.

01:08:08   Okay, then next up we have from Robert, "Did you mention a favorite Apple Watch charging stand?"

01:08:14   I don't use one, and I know that you do, so I thought we should probably mention it.

01:08:18   Uh, yeah, and I haven't, um, I haven't checked out a bunch of stands, so I don't have a favorite.

01:08:25   I bought the nightstand from Elevation Doc, you know, Elevation Lab, and I use it, and it's fine.

01:08:32   There are probably other ones that are better. What I like about it is it's got the orientation

01:08:38   properly to use it as a in-night stand mode, where it becomes your alarm clock, and that's

01:08:46   what I use now as my alarm clock, as my Apple Watch. It's another benefit of being an Apple

01:08:49   Watch user. And so that's what I use. There may be other ones. What you want is a stand

01:08:54   that lets you charge it and hold it sideways, although you can also just lay it on the table,

01:09:02   And that works too. I kind of like not doing that and having it on the little stand instead.

01:09:07   But you know, is it essential? No, I don't think it is essential, but it's fine. It keeps

01:09:13   my little charger in place and that's what I like about it. And you know, the magnet,

01:09:18   I wish the magnet was stronger on the Apple Watch charger because it wiggles a little

01:09:23   bit, but that's what I'm using and it's fine.

01:09:27   Next up we have a question from Ben and Ben wanted to know at what speed do you both listen

01:09:34   to your podcasts? Ben recently went down to 1x and everyone sounds so different than at

01:09:40   1.8 which I believe he's saying he listened to previously.

01:09:44   - Hi Ben.

01:09:48   - How are you doing? - Thanks for your question.

01:09:53   I listen one tick up, usually in Overcast.

01:10:01   Maybe one or two ticks up.

01:10:03   That's one of the reasons I love Overcast

01:10:04   is it's the first app that I have,

01:10:07   podcast app that I've listened to

01:10:09   where the faster speeds don't sound,

01:10:11   don't have like weird artifacts

01:10:14   that on other, the standard like audio method in order to speed up audio, every,

01:10:19   I feel like you get these like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick things that weird

01:10:22   artifacts that happen and, uh, it's all smooth and overcast.

01:10:25   So a lot of podcasts I'll listen to one tick up, maybe two.

01:10:28   Um, and then there are some podcasts where I, where I refuse to do that.

01:10:32   Um, because like the flophouse, because they already talk so fast and I want to

01:10:37   savor every minute of that podcast.

01:10:39   Cause it's one of my favorites.

01:10:40   Some others though, I'll speed it up a little bit.

01:10:43   The ATP I listened to sped up and Lauren was listening to one while I was getting ready

01:10:50   in the morning. I had it on a speaker and she was like, "Is this sped up or did they

01:10:54   really talk that fast?" And I said, "No, it's sped up." But I hear this from people. My

01:11:00   policy has always been no speed is supported other than 1x. We edit all of our podcasts

01:11:06   and listen to them at 1x. That's how they're meant to be listened to. If you want to listen

01:11:10   at other speeds, it's unsupported, it may be unsafe, it may be a danger to you and your

01:11:14   family. Be careful out there. What about you, Myke?

01:11:18   I'm 1x only with Smart Speed. I just don't... I mean, sometimes even with Smart Speed, I

01:11:27   hear the change. Sometimes it will pick somebody up and make them talk quite quickly for whatever

01:11:32   reason. And I hear it and I'm like, "Hmm, wish it didn't do that." But Smart Speed's

01:11:38   really good at doing exactly what I want which is just take out the silences and speed things

01:11:43   up very very slightly and that works for me because I like to listen at 1x and I only

01:11:48   listen to smart speed because I can listen to basically 1x and still save some time.

01:11:54   I don't really like the idea of speeding up shows it just doesn't, I've tried it and

01:11:59   it just doesn't fit with me. I just don't like it, I like to hear it as it was intended

01:12:05   to be you know and I don't think silences are an issue really unless you're listening

01:12:11   to like an NPR show. Like I think I turn smart speed off when I listen to cereal or something

01:12:16   because it's like you know dramatic pauses that avoid you don't get.

01:12:20   Right.

01:12:21   Listen to Paul there, what iOS or OS X app do you use to make the beautiful links in

01:12:26   the relay FM show notes? We don't use an app, it is our CMS that does that.

01:12:32   - Yeah, there's a cool bookmarklet in the CMS

01:12:36   that whatever the latest episode is that's in the CMS,

01:12:40   you can go to a page and click the bookmarklet

01:12:43   and it sucks in the title and the URL

01:12:46   and that helps a lot when we're doing those.

01:12:49   I have that set up for when I'm doing Clockwise.

01:12:52   As people mention things, I'm navigating to the pages

01:12:54   and clicking the button and it gets added to the show notes,

01:12:57   which is very nice.

01:12:58   - That is exactly how I've been doing the show notes

01:13:00   for this episode.

01:13:01   - Exactly.

01:13:02   great but it's just our CMS. If you've ever been curious now you know it's just

01:13:06   our system that does it we're very proud of it we love show notes in case you

01:13:10   hadn't guessed and yeah you say like you know you'll get last week's upgrade and

01:13:16   last week's connected had mammoth show notes you know I was working on upgrade

01:13:20   for like five hours last week with the chapters and then okay chapters could

01:13:26   we just address chapters quickly I need to address chapters quickly because you

01:13:31   People don't ask.

01:13:32   Only a couple, a small handful of people ask, and they're gonna ask because I did it like

01:13:35   on two different shows last week.

01:13:37   My personal policy on chapters is I do them in shows where I think it makes sense, because

01:13:44   it enhances a topic in some way.

01:13:46   So like the upgrade is it made sense to me because there were categories.

01:13:50   When we did the year-end review episode of Connected, I do it because every month it

01:13:54   kind of breaks it down that way.

01:13:56   I'm personally unsold on doing chapters just for every topic in a random episode of Upgrade.

01:14:05   I could be changed in the future, but I doubt that, because it's a lot more work for me

01:14:10   with the way that I edit, because I don't do a full listen-through edit of this show.

01:14:16   I make notes as we record and go back in and fix things afterwards.

01:14:20   We have a wide-ranging discussion that kind of goes through topics sometimes, and it would

01:14:25   be very difficult to get all of the stops. I feel like, you know, we could totally do,

01:14:32   you know, and it's up to you because it does take extra time. People don't understand that

01:14:35   there are technical issues and how you tag and I used to fix things with incomparable

01:14:40   before I started doing more bookmarks. If I found a mistake in the episode, I could

01:14:45   actually just fix it in an audio editor and then re-encode it as MP3. But the workflow

01:14:49   that we use for chapters, you kind of can't do that. You have to re-export it from logic

01:14:53   again. It takes time, it's complicated. You know, we do have a follow-up sponsor topic,

01:15:00   sponsor ask upgrade kind of structure that could have some basic bookmarks in it, but I see what

01:15:07   you're saying too, which is it's for special occasions when there's extra structure that

01:15:13   seems fitting for bookmarks, and super fine-grain kind of bookmark detail is something that is

01:15:19   not necessarily worth the extra work and workflow and just the act of going to any bookmarks is

01:15:28   itself take there's a hit in terms of the work that happens there so i don't know i i do them

01:15:35   sometimes for incomparable all the time for clockwise because clockwise is very structured

01:15:40   yeah it varies yeah i just i i need extra convincing as to why i should do that like it

01:15:48   I just don't see it really elevating.

01:15:51   - So email Myke.

01:15:52   - Yeah, email me with your reasons.

01:15:55   Listen to Martin, what's the likelihood

01:15:56   in your professional opinion of the Apple Pencil support

01:15:59   coming to the iPad Air 3?

01:16:01   Very likely, I would say.

01:16:03   - Yeah, I would say so.

01:16:05   Yeah, I would say like 80%, 90%, something like that,

01:16:08   that they'll do it with Apple Pencil support

01:16:10   and possibly smart connector too,

01:16:14   but certainly Apple Pencil support,

01:16:15   it just makes a lot of sense

01:16:16   that eventually the iPad Air will get it,

01:16:18   why not the next version?

01:16:19   It makes that, it makes the iPad Air better,

01:16:22   it makes the pencil better, why not?

01:16:24   - And listener Gary, are English muffins

01:16:29   just muffins in England?

01:16:32   - I wanna know the answer to this.

01:16:33   So I'm happy that listener Gary asked.

01:16:36   - I'm not 100% sure what I would call that,

01:16:39   what Gary is showing me because--

01:16:42   - They come kind of together and then you split them apart

01:16:45   they come pre-split and they've got little, as they say, the little nooks and crannies

01:16:50   in them, the little kind of bubbles, and then you toast them and put things on them. I had

01:16:55   these for breakfast this morning, in fact, with peanut butter and jelly on them.

01:16:58   >> It just looks like a roll to me. >> Well, next time you're here, we're going

01:17:03   to have to give you an English muffin and have you name it.

01:17:06   >> Because what we call muffins is what you call muffins.

01:17:09   >> Okay. >> Which is muffins, like chocolate chip muffins,

01:17:13   These are little, these are little, they're similar to like the, like, uh, they also sell

01:17:19   Australian toaster biscuits, which are very much like English muffins, but they're different.

01:17:25   So you don't, you don't even know what these are.

01:17:27   I can't get, give you a name for them.

01:17:30   But they're not muffins.

01:17:31   No, they're not muffins.

01:17:32   To answer listener Gary.

01:17:33   Yeah, they're not muffins.

01:17:34   We don't call them muffins, I don't think.

01:17:37   I'm like Googling now and I can't, I cannot give you an answer as to what these things

01:17:42   are. Like I wouldn't even know what to call them. I think I would probably just call them

01:17:47   English muffins. Maybe. I don't know. I have no idea. I'm completely unhelpful. I don't

01:17:53   know what that thing is.

01:17:55   I don't know. Muffins. According to Wikipedia, they're sold by the name Muffins in all British

01:18:00   supermarkets. All British supermarkets. Wow, that's pretty definitive, Wikipedia.

01:18:06   I don't think so, Wikipedia. And yeah, maybe they are called muffins, but that's not what

01:18:10   people call muffins right like they may be called muffins like you could call anything

01:18:14   a muffin but it doesn't but when when you say to somebody do you have muffins they don't

01:18:19   give you these they give you chocolate chip muffins right like you know it's like I could

01:18:23   call my iPhone a muffin if I wanted to all right but it doesn't you know it doesn't mean

01:18:30   that that's what everybody knows as muffins I hate it stuff like this on Wikipedia this

01:18:33   is what actually makes Wikipedia a difficult thing it's like they're not like every supermarket

01:18:39   I don't even know what they are, so they can't be like, it's not like you go to supermarkets

01:18:43   and you can't move from muffins.

01:18:45   Wikipedia checked and they're available in every supermarket.

01:18:48   They had somebody go around.

01:18:50   There's a Tesco in Bath that doesn't have them, they're gonna delete that comment.

01:18:55   Oh god.

01:18:57   That's it.

01:18:58   That's it.

01:18:59   I thought we'd end on a high note.

01:19:00   Oh definitely.

01:19:01   If you want to find our show notes, our lovingly crafted show notes, go to relay.fm/upgrades/70

01:19:06   you'll also find links to support this show if you want to you can do that and

01:19:11   we would love you to become a relay FM member and consider supporting upgrade

01:19:15   if you would like to follow us online Jason is at J Snell J S and E double L

01:19:20   on Twitter and he's over at six colors calm and I am at I Myke I am y-k-e thank

01:19:27   you so much listening thank you so much to Casper and Squarespace for sponsoring

01:19:30   and we'll be back next time until then say goodbye mr. Snell here's a message

01:19:35   for all of you fast listeners out there.

01:19:37   Gooooooooodbyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

01:19:37   Goodbye!

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