67: Part Spite, Part Strategy


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade and it's episode number 67.

00:00:12   Today's show is kindly brought to you by lindel.com, Warby Parker, and GoToMeeting.

00:00:17   My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:20   Myke, we're two-thirds of the way through to episode 100 now.

00:00:24   That's pretty crazy to think.

00:00:26   Mm-hmm.

00:00:27   What I always find weird when I start up the documents for this show is the numbers. So

00:00:33   we're on episode 67, but Connected and Analog and stuff like the shows that were the originals,

00:00:39   they're on like episodes 69 and 70, which just doesn't seem right to me because it didn't

00:00:45   feel like this show came around like two weeks after Relay launched, but obviously it did.

00:00:50   Well, I mean, on one level it did, but on another level it really didn't because those

00:00:55   shows are largely continuations of shows on 5x5, right, or even previous, and the numbering

00:01:01   and names changed, but you know, they're kind of—your mental model of connected goes back

00:01:06   to the prompt, right? So there's that. And then also you were spent the summer planning

00:01:12   those other shows to be on relay, right? And the upgrade happened on a faster timeframe

00:01:19   because of me leaving IDG.

00:01:20   Yep, it's just crazy to me to think that we are only two weeks old and this show appeared.

00:01:25   Yeah.

00:01:26   It's kind of nice to think that.

00:01:28   That was, that was, that was pretty cool.

00:01:30   Meanwhile I posted episode 276 of The Incomparable this weekend, like how is that possible that

00:01:35   the number is that large?

00:01:37   That is a huge number.

00:01:40   Yeah, that's a lot of, that's a lot of episodes.

00:01:42   I don't even know what you do at episode 300.

00:01:45   Yeah, I don't know.

00:01:48   What you probably won't do is any follow up.

00:01:50   But we do that on this show.

00:01:52   We do.

00:01:53   Jason, it turns out people do indeed use Launchpad.

00:01:56   We were getting a lot of feedback about this and I don't remember it ever being brought

00:01:59   up.

00:02:00   No.

00:02:01   Now, Launchpad, which I mentioned that I thought nobody used, which, okay, so I'll say, let

00:02:09   me say something about hyperbole, which is sometimes you say things that are not, you

00:02:12   don't mean them literally, you mean that it feels that way and it's sort of that way.

00:02:18   My feeling is that, I'll rephrase this, I don't think Launchpad is a feature that is

00:02:22   used to the extent that perhaps Apple anticipated. And I'm not convinced, and maybe Apple has

00:02:27   numbers that back this up, I'm not convinced that it's a necessary feature. But at the

00:02:33   same time as we talked about last week, just because a feature isn't used by a lot of people,

00:02:37   you don't necessarily take it out. Maybe you don't show it a lot of love, but you just

00:02:40   sort of leave it there, and it's there for the people who want it. Now, of course, when

00:02:44   you say, "I don't think anybody or almost anybody uses a feature," what you're going

00:02:48   to hear from is everybody who uses it because they are offended that you suggest that they

00:02:53   don't exist, which is fair enough. So I did hear from people who use the LaunchPad. The

00:02:59   joke that I could make here is that I've heard from everybody who uses the LaunchPad. They're

00:03:03   like eight of them, but they are a representative sample of a much larger group. So I guess

00:03:09   what this tells me is a few things. One is not everybody is navigating via the keyboard.

00:03:15   Spotlight. So Spotlight is something that came up too because you can find apps very

00:03:20   quickly in Spotlight. And over the years Apple has actually done a really good job of getting

00:03:25   the Spotlight index to favor apps. And in Yosemite and El Capitan, Spotlight immediately

00:03:33   will suggest an app when you start typing. And if you hit return, it will, it's like

00:03:38   as you're typing, it's auto-filling and displaying the icon and saying, "This is the app I think

00:03:42   you want," and if you hit return, that app launches. And I heard from some people who

00:03:46   said they thought the Spotlight was too slow, and I would say if you're using an older version

00:03:50   of OS X, that might be true. If you're using a newer version of OS X, you might want to

00:03:54   try it again because Apple spent the last... I think the Yosemite and the previous update,

00:04:02   they put a lot of effort into getting app launching faster on Spotlight. And Spotlight

00:04:08   does take a while sometimes to kind of chunk around and get like 20 things displayed for

00:04:15   you, but the app display is supposed to happen very fast. On my computer it happens basically

00:04:19   instantaneously. So, what this is interesting is I heard from some people who said they

00:04:25   use Launchpad because they open Launchpad using a mouse, usually it's a mouse gesture,

00:04:33   and then they type the name of the app they want because it defaults to the keyboard when

00:04:39   Launchpad opens is in the search box and you can search for an app. I guess that's no different

00:04:47   other than the visual thing of having the curtain drop down and all those apps there.

00:04:51   I guess that's not really much different than doing a Spotlight search. They're probably

00:04:58   about just as fast. And this one has a little less noise in the sense that it isn't trying

00:05:03   to show you other things too. It's only trying to show you apps. I'm not entirely convinced

00:05:08   that that's actually a more efficient way of doing it than just using Spotlight, but

00:05:12   there it is. And then the other aspect of this is, I think if you're a person who really

00:05:18   uses your computer and thinks visually and spatially, Launchpad has value because you

00:05:26   know where your apps are. So I heard from a few people, Lister Jeff is a good example,

00:05:31   he said, "I can arrange all of my app icons the way I want. This makes it easier for me

00:05:36   to find them." The idea that you've got some apps in the dock and then you've got Launchpad

00:05:39   in the dock, and if the app you want is not one of your go-to dock apps, you click Launchpad

00:05:44   and you get that grid and you know where that app is that you want. You don't have too many

00:05:48   apps, or too many apps on page one of Launchpad. And it's a nice visual way to find an app.

00:05:54   So that, and the idea there is that you may not be the kind of person for whom hitting

00:06:00   command space and typing the first three letters of the app name and hitting return is something

00:06:04   that you're ever going to internalize, but, you know, click and then click in two different

00:06:10   spaces on your screen totally works for you. And that's, you know, different people have

00:06:15   different pathways. So I thought that was a really interesting way of going about it.

00:06:20   And then I also heard from some people, one other common bond in people using Launchpad

00:06:23   is, it was not that length of time using the Mac, because I heard from people who are even

00:06:30   classic Mac users who use Launchpad, and I heard from people who migrated over. But I

00:06:34   did hear a surprising number of people who migrated from Linux or Windows or both, who

00:06:38   said that they like it because it's a way to organize your programs that don't fit in

00:06:44   the dock, and I think that also suggests a lack of comfort with Spotlight and a lack

00:06:48   of comfort with the Finder. And that's not unreasonable. I wonder sometimes if Launchpad

00:06:54   wouldn't be better if it was purely, like visually an extension of the dock, like when

00:07:00   you click the Launchpad in the dock, it just flipped out a table of, you know, a tray of

00:07:05   apps.

00:07:06   -Yeah, like a drawer slides out or something, you know.

00:07:08   -Instead of the curtain coming down and, you know, your entire screen is now covered with

00:07:14   this app launcher. But just metaphorically I wonder if that would be better.

00:07:18   So I think that Launchpad is fundamentally a better way to organize and find your apps

00:07:22   than the Finder, in my opinion. The Finder just doesn't really gel for me, like as

00:07:28   you open a folder to find apps. I just feel like now my iOS idea of apps has completely

00:07:34   changed the way that I think about apps on the Mac. But I am completely a command space

00:07:39   Person, but I have Alfred installed. I really like Alfred

00:07:43   It does a couple of extra things that I like but one of my main things is it learns from me

00:07:48   And I'm sure spotlight does a bit of this, but I'm now invested in Alfred

00:07:54   It knows my little habits

00:07:55   It knows that I always type address book when I need contacts and gives me the right one

00:08:00   You know like little things like that and and so I really love it for that. Yeah, I use launch bar, but same point

00:08:06   Same point.

00:08:07   Yeah.

00:08:08   And so that's it.

00:08:09   But I was really interested the other day.

00:08:12   Me and my girlfriend were doing something on her Mac and she used Spotlight to launch

00:08:17   an app, which really surprised me because she's a relatively new Mac user and I don't

00:08:23   know why she did it, but I'm pleased that she did.

00:08:27   Because it shows that she's found something and worked out how to do it, which I think

00:08:30   is really cool.

00:08:32   Because fundamentally launching apps on the Mac is not as easy as launching apps on iOS.

00:08:38   So that's why Launchpad exists, but it's good that Spotlight has integrated that as well.

00:08:43   See I think launching apps on the Mac is just as easy as it is on iOS because you either

00:08:49   see it or you type it.

00:08:52   Well it's just as easy when you know you have to find it.

00:08:56   Like on the iPhone or on the iPad they're right there looking at you at all times when

00:09:02   you're on the home screen.

00:09:03   That's true.

00:09:04   Although, you know, you've got the big dock on the Mac.

00:09:07   It's bigger.

00:09:08   I mean, I've used sort of like the dock as like page one of the home screen.

00:09:13   I think those are kind of comparable where it's like these are the apps that I really

00:09:16   want in my face all the time.

00:09:18   And then everything else, you can have other pages of apps, although generally now if I

00:09:23   don't see it, I just search for it.

00:09:24   I don't, you know, I've come to the, this may actually be the CGP Grey school of thought,

00:09:31   right, which is, if you can't see it, it might as well just be in a folder because

00:09:35   you're just going to search for it and you don't need eight, I don't have like eight

00:09:38   pages of apps anymore.

00:09:39   Yeah, I search. I mean, I have everything filed away and there's still some stuff that

00:09:45   I just know where it is on my second screen, so I just go and grab it. But the majority

00:09:49   of the time I'm using Spotlight and iOS to launch applications in the same way.

00:09:53   So that's the thing that makes me stop about Launchpad is that you are bringing it up and

00:10:01   then you're looking for your app and then you're clicking on your app. I agree looking

00:10:04   in the applications folder in the finder, although something I occasionally do, is not

00:10:08   a good way of doing it. But I feel like the dock and spotlight are the primary ways that

00:10:14   Apple expects you to use it. But I think this is a good example of Apple thinking for some

00:10:20   people, especially people who are used to the way that iOS presents apps, having a visual

00:10:24   grid of app icons is a good alternative to typing them. I have some issues with LaunchPad,

00:10:36   but it's not for me. So in the end, I find like it's a little, it's so slavishly attached

00:10:43   to iOS shortcuts that it's kind of hard to manage LaunchPad and move things around. But

00:10:49   at the same time, I think the people who are using it don't have very many apps largely,

00:10:54   they're happy to manage it. So it doesn't work for me, and I think it could be better

00:10:59   perhaps, but I see why it's there. And that was why it was there initially. My larger

00:11:05   point last week was I'm not sure Apple would make Launchpad today. I think Apple today

00:11:10   would say the dock and spotlight is good enough. But there was a time when Apple felt like

00:11:15   it was a high priority to create an iOS home screen-like experience on the Mac, that they

00:11:20   needed to build that feature. And so they did, and it's Launchpad. I just think now

00:11:24   Apple's priorities are different and creating something that is that it apes iOS for an

00:11:32   app launcher is not something they would try. But it's there and people do use it. And it

00:11:37   is absolutely true that different people learn and interact with technology in different

00:11:42   ways. And this is a great example of that, that for some people, even if you can type

00:11:47   the name in Spotlight. They don't want to do it. They either want to type the name in

00:11:50   Launchpad or they just want to click on the thing in Launchpad. And that's something that

00:11:56   we should all remember about computers is just because somebody doesn't do it the way

00:12:00   you do it doesn't mean they're doing it wrong because there are lots of different paths

00:12:04   to get where you want to go. And you may be able to offer something that would be more

00:12:08   efficient but it or you may think it's more efficient for them but it might not be because

00:12:16   different people. It's just like how, you know, people, some people learn by reading

00:12:19   books and some people learn by sitting in a classroom and listening and some people

00:12:23   learn by using their hands in order to do whatever it is they need to learn. Everybody's

00:12:28   got different ways that they learn and that they use technology.

00:12:33   - Speaking of which, Outlook.

00:12:36   - Yeah, so I threw Outlook for Mac under the bus last week and I should have been nicer

00:12:42   to it. There is a new version, which I have seen and I have on my hard drive and yet when

00:12:46   I was struck at some point I used Outlook and I was surprised at how entourage-y it

00:12:52   still felt, but they did do a new version last year that doesn't look like entourage,

00:12:56   although it's still, I still feel like the weight of history on it at times, but it does

00:13:02   look a lot better. It fits the visual style of Microsoft's modern apps, which I do like.

00:13:07   I enjoy the way that those apps are designed. I think they're very pretty. And I find them

00:13:14   a pleasure to use actually, especially on iOS, but even on the Mac. And I will still

00:13:19   say about Outlook that unless you're using Exchange, Outlook for Mac I think is overkill.

00:13:23   I think it's too much. I think it's kind of just, it's a product that's really designed

00:13:27   for people who are in Microsoft environments and using Exchange servers. And if you are,

00:13:31   then good, you should use it. But I can't really, I'm enjoying using it on iOS and I

00:13:36   I feel that it's a different story on iOS, but on the Mac, I don't think it's something

00:13:40   that I would recommend people use.

00:13:42   It is better than it used to be, I guess, I haven't taken a look at it and whatever

00:13:46   and hearing from people, but it's not like the iOS version. It's not like that. The iOS

00:13:54   version is very simple and very useful and very stripped down to what you need it to

00:13:59   do, but not in like a simple, like it's not dumbed down, but it's stripped down to the

00:14:04   point where you just have the features that you need and I really like it for

00:14:08   that. The desktop version of Outlook is still kind of catered to the PC

00:14:15   environment I guess more and like the corporate environment as opposed to the

00:14:21   iOS environment which the new Outlook apps are on I guess. I started

00:14:26   using mail.app as well as Outlook that's what I've switched to and I've had to

00:14:30   move away from mail.app because for some reason it really doesn't like the

00:14:34   the fact that I use a pen tablet and a magic trackpad for navigation and every

00:14:39   now and then I am hovering over the pen tablet with my pen and I attempt to use

00:14:45   a gesture with the trackpad and then I cannot interact with anything in the

00:14:50   mail app it just locks up everything else in the system is fine but it seems

00:14:54   to get stuck in some gesture somewhere and I can only use the app again by

00:14:59   false quitting it so I have moved away from mail and I'm currently trying air

00:15:03   >> I have seen that on El Capitan in a few places where there are certain circumstances

00:15:12   where something is happening and gestures kill an app where they cause the app to become

00:15:21   unable to recognize gestures or cause the system to be unable to recognize gestures.

00:15:27   And other work, they otherwise work normally, which is really weird, right? Like, "Oh, I

00:15:32   still use the keyboard and the mouse, I just can't use my trackpad gestures anymore. It's

00:15:36   just strange.

00:15:37   I can use them in all other apps, just not this one. I don't know if it's a problem with

00:15:43   male specifically, but it is a problem with OS X. Because sometimes my trackpad doesn't

00:15:48   work with logic, and I have to usually turn my trackpad off and on again for the gestures

00:15:55   to work, the pinch gestures to work, for zooming in and zooming out. Who knows, Jason? Nobody

00:15:59   I will just point out that I have not yet updated this machine to the most current version

00:16:05   of El Capitan.

00:16:06   Who knows?

00:16:07   Just in case that's been fixed.

00:16:09   Do you remember last week there was an Ask Upgrade question that people were saying like

00:16:13   where can I get live wallpapers from?

00:16:16   Yes.

00:16:17   Well, Upgrading and Danny sent in a link to an app.

00:16:21   It's a 79 pence app, which I think is 99 cents, called Live Wallpapers.

00:16:26   it is just a collection of live wallpapers that you can get from the from an app in the

00:16:31   app store with a bunch of different patterns and stuff like that. It hasn't got the best

00:16:36   reviews. I haven't tried it myself but it does exist. So proving that I guess it's possible

00:16:43   but there are some that it seems like people are complaining that it crashes. However it

00:16:47   exists so give it a go at your own risk I suppose.

00:16:51   Yeah interesting.

00:16:52   I have taken a new, I have a picture of my lovely girlfriend as my lock screen image

00:17:00   and it was a great picture that I took of her a couple of years ago that I really loved

00:17:05   and I really wanted a live wallpaper picture of her.

00:17:09   So over the weekend we were away on a family thing and I took a picture of her because

00:17:15   she looked cute in a hat that she was wearing and now I have a live wallpaper picture of

00:17:20   her and I absolutely love it. Have you done this?

00:17:26   No. I've got some. Yeah, I should do it. I need to look because what happens is I just

00:17:32   take the pictures and then I don't think to go back and mark those. So I'll have to look

00:17:39   for that. I've got one of my daughters like jumping up and down when we were taking our

00:17:44   family. Turns out to be our family photo for our holiday card and I've got a live photo

00:17:49   of her that's basically from that, which is kind of cool.

00:17:54   So more and more I am loving that feature. I really do think it's fantastic. It's just

00:17:59   a fun little thing. And it's captured some really cool moments that I've always I wouldn't

00:18:04   have been able to grab. So I like it a lot. Yeah, I just wish that I just wish that there

00:18:08   were more it just needs to be more shareable because it's weird, you know, one off format.

00:18:12   So more shareable in more places is as we were saying last week is that would be nice.

00:18:18   of Abby wrote in about a comment on no command line for classic Mac OS and pointed to something

00:18:25   called MPW. You're going to have to help me with this one.

00:18:27   Yeah, that's the Macintosh Programmer's Workshop. So, Abby wrote in and said, "You're wrong.

00:18:33   There was a command line for the classic Mac OS. It was called MPW." And I know what MPW

00:18:37   is, and we ended up disagreeing on this, and I disagree with listener Abby about this,

00:18:42   but I appreciate the message because what Abhi was saying was MPW was a program you

00:18:50   could install on the Mac and it gave you a command line and you could develop software

00:18:55   and write shell scripts and execute them and it would do things in the file system and

00:18:59   all that kind of thing, like we think of with the terminal app. So I guess the question

00:19:04   is what does "has a command line" mean? Because there were lots of programs for classic Mac

00:19:09   OS that quote-unquote gave you a command line where you could do things like rename, batch

00:19:14   rename or remove files and things like that. And what was really happening is you were

00:19:18   issuing a command and then the command line program would do what you told it to do. And

00:19:24   I guess what I would say is the Unix terminal is fundamentally a part of OS X. And it's

00:19:31   there whether you want it to be there or not. And terminal is just a window into it. You

00:19:35   could actually, depending on your settings, you can telnet in to or SSH into a Mac and

00:19:42   do Unix stuff. And OS 9 didn't work like that. OS 9 had no fundamental part of its

00:19:47   operating system that was a text-based command line. You can install programs that emulated

00:19:53   a command line interface and let you do things, but it's not the same, in my mind, as what

00:19:58   DOS had, which was fundamentally down below there is, or even Windows with the DOS underneath

00:20:04   it, right? With DOS it wasn't down below, that was all there was, but with Windows it

00:20:08   was down beneath it, this command line interface. And that's just not true on OS 9, it didn't

00:20:15   have anything like that. You could run a program that gave you the ability to do stuff that

00:20:19   felt like today's command line, but OS 10 has Unix with a command line interface and

00:20:26   shells and stuff already installed that's part of the base system that are running.

00:20:31   And all the terminal app is doing is giving you a window into that stuff.

00:20:36   And Abhi made one argument that you can't really do anything with the terminal unless

00:20:39   you install Xcode, and that's not true.

00:20:42   That's absolutely not true.

00:20:44   There's lots of things you can do with the OS X terminal without installing Xcode, and

00:20:48   I've done them, many of them.

00:20:50   So I think it's an interesting perspective, even though I'm going to disagree, I think

00:20:54   it's a really interesting perspective because it is true that on one level if you can install

00:20:59   software that lets you type commands and have them executed, then is that not a command

00:21:04   line? But I think it misses the point that OS 9 and before the classic Mac OS had no

00:21:11   fundamental sort of like text-based interface that was sitting there waiting for somebody

00:21:14   to contact it. That's not how it works.

00:21:17   All right, well that one's lost on me. So I tell you what though, if I did want to learn

00:21:23   how to do all of this stuff, do you know where I would go, Jason?

00:21:26   Where would you go?

00:21:27   lynda.com

00:21:28   Ah, that's a great place.

00:21:29   They are the online learning platform

00:21:31   that has over 3,000 on-demand video courses

00:21:33   to help you strengthen your business technology

00:21:36   and creative skills.

00:21:37   You can get yourself a free day,

00:21:39   a free 10-day trial, I should say,

00:21:40   by visiting lynda.com/upgrade.

00:21:43   That's L-Y-N-D-A dot com slash upgrade.

00:21:46   lynda.com has courses on everything.

00:21:49   So, you know, if you wanna learn how to do Xcode stuff,

00:21:51   if you wanna learn terminal stuff,

00:21:52   you're gonna be able to find all kinds of topics

00:21:55   subjects and courses like that over at lynda.com because they're there to help you solve problems,

00:22:00   they're there to help you feed your curious mind, help you tackle those tasks you've been putting

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00:22:13   time to go to lynda.com, watch their videos, learn from top experts and put into practice the thing

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00:23:26   learning some new stuff today. Thank you so much lynda.com for their support of this show

00:23:31   and Relay FM. So you did exactly what I expected you would do and you went ahead and bought

00:23:40   an iPad Pro in between these two episodes. Why is that?

00:23:45   So, this weekend we went to my sister-in-law's house. My sister-in-law, my wife's sister,

00:23:51   used to... She was a lawyer. She went to law school and then went to a firm and ended up at this

00:24:00   firm in New York City. And I visited her there earlier this year. And she did a career change

00:24:08   and moved to California, back to California, because they're there, they grew up in LA,

00:24:14   and they're in the Central Valley now, and she's a judge. And her, her swearing in as a federal

00:24:20   magistrate judge was this weekend, so, or it was Friday. So we went over, so we went there and

00:24:25   we're, it was really nice. It was kind of like a cross between a family reunion and a, I think

00:24:31   it was most like, it's like a wedding, like a wedding reception, because it was all parts of

00:24:37   of the family. It was really nice. It was a great... They do a ceremony. They do it

00:24:42   right too. Like all the judges in the federal courthouse are in this session. It's like

00:24:46   in the ceremonial courtroom where all the judges are because usually there's like one

00:24:51   judge per courtroom. You don't need like 10 of them. It was really a great ceremony. So

00:24:56   we're there for the weekend and I didn't bring my laptop with me. So I did a bunch of stuff

00:25:01   this weekend. I added an episode of The Incomparable with Ferrite on the iPad Pro again this weekend,

00:25:06   which I can talk about a little bit later,

00:25:09   'cause that was a lot of fun.

00:25:10   So I'm using it for the weekend thinking,

00:25:12   again, as I have all along,

00:25:14   this is a product I never expected to like this much.

00:25:16   And it's literally just been the weeks with it

00:25:19   of continuing to come back to it and not put it down

00:25:22   and not go back to the iPad Air.

00:25:24   That made me think, this is, as we said last week,

00:25:26   this is probably something I should buy.

00:25:28   So we're sitting at my sister-in-law's dining room table

00:25:31   talking and there's people all around,

00:25:33   it's a Saturday night and some of the people have left

00:25:36   like the party is kind of winding down because we did a big party on Saturday. I'm swearing

00:25:41   it was Friday afternoon. We did a party on Saturday at their house. And we're talking

00:25:46   and there's a few of us talking and I had the iPad Pro out and somebody noticed it and

00:25:52   asked me about it so I picked it up and I showed them some stuff. And I said to my wife,

00:25:57   "Yeah, I think I'm probably going to buy one." They were asking, "Do you like it?" I'm like,

00:26:02   this is the Apple one, but I think I'm going to buy one. And my wife, ever the sensible

00:26:06   person said, "Well, if you're going to buy it, you should buy it before the end of the

00:26:10   year because tax-wise, you know, it works better that way. Like the business buys it

00:26:19   and then that's less of a profit for the business. It's less income for me. There's some good

00:26:25   reasons to spend your money this year rather than next year." So I'm like, "All right."

00:26:31   know, two minutes later it was bought because I didn't need any more reasons. That was a

00:26:39   good enough reason for me. So I immediately bought the iPad. So it's coming.

00:26:44   Similar kind of experience. Whilst that family get together of mine this weekend, I took

00:26:51   the iPad Pro with me because my uncle is, he loves all this kind of stuff as well. And

00:26:57   he buys most of these things. But there are some times I'll show him something because

00:27:00   he hasn't bought it yet and then he decides if he wants it. This is like what happened

00:27:04   with the Apple Watch, he saw mine and then went ahead and bought one. So I took the iPad

00:27:08   Pro to him and he was saying to me that he was convinced that he wasn't going to get

00:27:12   one but after a little demo he's now rethinking that idea. But there was a really funny moment

00:27:17   where we were sitting down, we kind of, because we don't all get to see each other over the

00:27:23   couple of days of Christmas, so we have a big kind of family Christmas dinner a couple

00:27:28   of weeks before, before everybody goes off in their own separate directions to do whatever

00:27:31   it is that they're doing over the holidays. So we basically had mini Christmas and we

00:27:37   were trying to play music, my uncle was trying to play music and he was trying to plug in

00:27:41   his iPhone into his stereo, but the cable, you know, the 3.5 millimeter cable wasn't

00:27:47   wasn't working. Maybe that's why they should get rid of them, Jason, but we'll talk about

00:27:51   that another day. And the Bluetooth thing that he was trying to use, he couldn't connect

00:27:56   to it so I was like well let me just go get the iPad Pro and the speakers were so loud

00:28:00   right that I was able to use it as the kind of the jukebox and put on my great Christmas

00:28:07   music choices for everybody to listen to. So again I had one of those scenarios where

00:28:13   people were kind of very interested in this product and it served an interesting and slightly

00:28:19   unexpected purpose because it is incredible. I love my iPad Pro.

00:28:25   Yeah, so going this weekend, I had that moment of like, "All right, and I'm going to bring

00:28:31   a laptop." And what I found more than anything else about this iPad Pro is that it has made

00:28:35   me cease using my MacBook Air. Because I have the iMac at the desk, I do my Mac stuff at

00:28:43   the desk. And then I've got this MacBook Air that I used to use a lot. I used to use it

00:28:49   all the time. And then I used it a lot, but I had the iPad mini and then the Air 2. And

00:28:55   so I used it less. And with the iPad Pro, I use it none. I use it not at all. And I

00:29:03   like that. That means that when I'm out here, I'm working on the Mac, and when I'm in the

00:29:06   house or I'm traveling, I'm not. But could I do it traveling? Could I do it? And I decided

00:29:12   I was going to try it. I had all the files for this weekend's incomparable. I just needed

00:29:15   to copy them over to the iPad Pro. I had done an episode on Ferrite before, so I could probably

00:29:20   do that again. And so I did. The only adjustment I made, and Ferrite, there was just an idea

00:29:25   an update, it lets you export lossless now, which is nice. And a couple of new things.

00:29:31   There are a couple more things they need to do. I still need to use a Bluetooth keyboard

00:29:33   with it for now because it takes too long to delete items using the touch screen and

00:29:40   the play/pause control is not conveniently located. So I sit there with like... So what

00:29:48   I did this time is rather than having it be the traditional sort of keyboard in front

00:29:51   of you and then screen out because there's so much of editing audio with ferrite that

00:29:55   is touch-based that I was getting the zombie arms that Apple talks about for the Mac where

00:30:02   you're sitting there using a touch screen device and you keep having to raise your hands

00:30:06   up and use the touch screen and how it's kind of unpleasant. And I was getting that and

00:30:10   I was thinking, "This is not fun," because actually touching the screen and editing audio

00:30:16   with touch is kind of great. It feels really great. So I took the iPad and I laid it flat

00:30:23   on that dining room table, and I had my Bluetooth keyboard next to me, like off to the left,

00:30:29   and I edited like that. So everything was flat on the table, and so they were side by

00:30:36   side, and the keyboard was turned a little bit, so it was a little bit angled and a little

00:30:40   bit closer, and that was fantastic. That was actually a really great experience. I had

00:30:45   a lot of fun editing that podcast. So, yeah, it's basically replaced. Again, you can't

00:30:53   really record podcasts on iOS devices now, so it doesn't, if I have to record, it gets

00:30:57   much more complicated. But just taking it away to do some editing, I could totally do

00:31:01   it, and that's exciting. So yeah, it's funny. It is, I heard from some people when I said

00:31:06   that I, over the weekend that I bought it, saying, "Well, of course, you know, that's

00:31:09   what you do is buy all the Apple stuff." It's not true. I don't buy all the Apple stuff.

00:31:13   I buy very specific.

00:31:14   - You get most of it, but you don't buy it all.

00:31:17   - And then I send it back, right, exactly right.

00:31:19   And I didn't buy an iPad 6 Plus.

00:31:22   But what has happened with the iPad

00:31:24   is that I've gone over the course of a year

00:31:26   from the iPad mini to the iPad Pro.

00:31:28   And I did not expect that to happen.

00:31:30   And I fully expected to ship the iPad Pro back

00:31:32   and be done with it.

00:31:33   And this has been a surprise.

00:31:35   So I think that's kind of interesting.

00:31:37   - I still haven't tried Ferrite.

00:31:39   I've downloaded it, I've opened it,

00:31:42   but I haven't really done anything with it yet.

00:31:45   I feel like I should, but I have to say,

00:31:47   even though I know it's really good,

00:31:49   I've heard great things,

00:31:50   I'm just a little bit nervous of it.

00:31:52   That's all.

00:31:53   I will do it eventually,

00:31:55   like I will have some time and I'll give it a go,

00:31:58   just because I trust your opinion on these things,

00:32:00   as always.

00:32:01   So if you really like it and it's working for you,

00:32:04   and I've listened to the episode you've edited on it,

00:32:06   and wouldn't have known, right?

00:32:08   Like I listened to the last incomparable today.

00:32:11   I had no idea, it didn't sound bad, I had no idea you were doing anything different.

00:32:14   The Star Wars anticipation episode?

00:32:16   Yeah.

00:32:17   Yeah.

00:32:18   I wouldn't have known.

00:32:19   So, it obviously does the job in a great way.

00:32:22   So I'll talk to you about it, because I have a few questions but they're not really worth

00:32:26   it for the show, and then maybe I'll give it a go and let people know what I think about

00:32:30   it later on.

00:32:31   But I guess, you know, if you're using it and you're happy with it, that's great.

00:32:34   But talking about apps, I've seen the first kind of crop of professional focused apps

00:32:40   over the last week, updated to take advantage of specific iPad Pro features, which is really

00:32:47   interesting. So DJ Pro and Pixelmator have both been updated with the iPad Pro in mind.

00:32:53   Yeah, the DJ Pro from Algoriddim is pretty crazy because it is taking advantage of the

00:33:01   size of the screen and also the power of the processor. You can do like two 4K videos.

00:33:05   I mean, I have to admit, I just don't get the DJ thing, but I can tell you about the

00:33:10   tech specs, like two 4K videos at once, a whole bunch of different audio streams. Like,

00:33:15   what it is capable of doing is kind of amazing. And it might be the first app I've seen that

00:33:20   I can say it's taking advantage of the fact that the iPad Pro has all that power. I suspect

00:33:25   that most of the time the iPad Pro is not being put to the test. When I export, maybe

00:33:31   when I'm using ferrite and I've got multiple audio streams, yeah, I suppose it's really

00:33:36   taking advantage of all the memory and the processor power of the iPad Pro, but DJ totally,

00:33:43   it's crazy what it can do. And Pixelmator did an update similarly to add some iPad Pro

00:33:49   features. So they're coming. This is a key part of the iPad Pro being successful is that

00:33:56   apps need to get updated to support it otherwise, because using scaled up apps on the iPad Pro

00:34:00   stinks. I was using Dropbox and that was so painful I can see now after this weekend I

00:34:05   know why Federico is so mad about Dropbox lagging because not only is that a scaled

00:34:09   up iPad Pro app but I couldn't get it in split view either.

00:34:15   Yeah for Dropbox I don't care that it's scaled up because I'm not writing in it or anything

00:34:21   it doesn't look great but I can deal with it. But the fact that I can't access it in

00:34:25   split view is really frustrating to me. Yeah, or slide over, it's super frustrating.

00:34:31   But I saw an app updated with something that's really interesting to me. So Geometry Wars

00:34:36   3, Geometry Wars is an age old game, it's been rebooted and updated so many times. It's

00:34:41   still fantastic by the way, if you've never played Geometry Wars or if you've never played

00:34:45   it on iOS. But they have updated for an iPad Pro only local multiplayer. So basically what

00:34:52   What you do is each of you hold the iPad, right, or you have it in front of you, kind

00:34:59   of in what would be portrait orientation, and you can both put your two thumbs on the

00:35:03   screen and use the kind of the dual analog stick type movement.

00:35:07   And there are two characters, two spaceships, we call them, flying around and destroying

00:35:11   the enemies.

00:35:12   It's difficult to explain because the app is so kind of like just artistic in its way.

00:35:18   isn't really a story but you just fly around shooting other spaceships in a geometric world.

00:35:25   It's awesome. And it's only on the iPad Pro. And it makes sense because you need the space

00:35:30   for two people to be able to both have both hands on the thing. But it's really interesting.

00:35:37   I don't know if a lot of games will add this and I think it would work for a lot of games

00:35:41   but I think it's super cool that it exists. Cool. So that's something for you. It was

00:35:48   It caught my attention because there aren't a lot of apps that are doing things that are

00:35:55   exclusive to the iPad Pro.

00:35:58   They're maybe doing things that are like, "Oh, it's a bit better here," or "We have

00:36:02   a bit more space here," but this is like, you actually can't play co-op multiplayer

00:36:06   on any other device.

00:36:08   So I like that a lot.

00:36:09   That makes sense.

00:36:10   Yeah, I'll check it out.

00:36:12   So I know we're talking a lot about the iPad Pro, and I feel like I'm talking about it

00:36:16   or more and more shows recently,

00:36:20   but it really has become a very important device for me.

00:36:24   And it's one of the more interesting things

00:36:27   that Apple have done recently,

00:36:28   but they've done it in a kind of non-fanfare-y type way.

00:36:31   - Yeah.

00:36:34   Yeah, it's a hard, you know,

00:36:37   it's a product that it's gonna take time,

00:36:40   and it's gonna take those app updates.

00:36:42   And I think it's a long-term strategy from Apple,

00:36:45   but I think it's a very interesting product.

00:36:49   I see people dismiss it, and I just think,

00:36:53   this is not the product that all of us are going to use.

00:36:55   It is definitely a very specific kind of product,

00:36:57   but I think if you just dismiss it out of hand,

00:37:01   then you're making a big mistake.

00:37:03   - Yeah, most definitely.

00:37:05   So there was some news over the last couple of days

00:37:07   that I'm sure are making you very happy.

00:37:09   (laughing)

00:37:11   - Yeah, we complained a lot in recent shows

00:37:14   about the Apple TV. And one of the fundamental questions that kind of baffled all of us was,

00:37:19   why did it not support the remote app? Because that would make a lot of things. The remote

00:37:25   app used with the old Apple TV, you can enter in passwords, you can enter in search terms,

00:37:30   and you can kind of control the screen. Why can you not do that? And last week, Apple

00:37:35   released an update to... They did a bunch of operating system updates, including a tvOS

00:37:42   that enables support for the Apple remote. The Apple remote app got updated the next

00:37:46   day, weirdly, and the release notes said it supports the new Apple TV, but I used the

00:37:53   previous version the day before and it worked fine. So it was really about the tvOS update

00:37:59   that whatever, you know, whatever it's listening for, it wasn't listening for. Now it was listening

00:38:03   for that remote app. And so now you can do that, which means that now if you get an Apple

00:38:10   TV and you need to enter in passwords, you can go to your phone and launch the remote

00:38:13   app and put the passwords in there using the keyboard on the iPhone, which is great. It's

00:38:18   still emulating the old remote control, and Apple was quoted as saying by someone, I forget

00:38:26   who they furnished the quote to, as saying they were working on an update, whether it's

00:38:31   a new app or it's an update to the remote app, that will emulate the full Siri remote,

00:38:35   which presumably means, like, Siri Remote tells, like, where your finger is moving on

00:38:41   the trackpad. If you move your, if you sort of swirl your thumb around on the trackpad,

00:38:46   you can see the little icons move. The remote app is just left, right, up, down. You know,

00:38:51   even if you're sliding your finger across it, it doesn't do that. It just translates

00:38:55   it as the old remote's left, right, up, down. So presumably it would get more detailed trackpad

00:39:02   support and access to the gyroscope and accelerometer and maybe the microphone for voice control.

00:39:11   And I wrote a post about this. I do wonder if this means that we're also headed for a

00:39:15   software update that will enable more than one Siri remote on the Apple TV, because then

00:39:20   you could use the Siri remotes like Wii remotes and play games and stuff with just the Siri

00:39:25   remotes, which might be an interesting thing for people who don't want to buy game pads

00:39:30   for the Apple TV. So it'll be interesting to see. The question becomes, and it's irrelevant

00:39:34   now, I suppose, but the question remains, why was this not available at launch? And

00:39:39   I guess the answer is just that they didn't have it ready. Maybe they didn't realize that

00:39:44   anybody cared, and this was a response to everybody complaining about it. But yeah,

00:39:49   it's still a little weird, but at least it's here now. That's great.

00:39:52   - I've, this isn't something that bothers me,

00:39:57   at all really.

00:39:59   I'm fine with the remote,

00:40:01   but yeah, I'm happy that it's there

00:40:06   for the people that want it, like yourself and Joe Steele.

00:40:09   - Well, but it's not, see the thing is once it's,

00:40:11   I think that part of this is that we're all happy

00:40:14   to be just using the, we're past set up now.

00:40:18   We're past set up now.

00:40:19   So it is less relevant to all of us who are past setup now.

00:40:23   Where it's relevant is for people who are setting up these things and are in that position

00:40:27   where they're asked for their various service passwords five times.

00:40:31   That's where it's really important to have a product like this.

00:40:35   So there was some other, there was another little Apple TV thing which is kind of more

00:40:39   located to my interests than yours, or just my geographical location, which is the BBC

00:40:46   iPlayer app has been debuted on the Apple TV which is great that it's there

00:40:54   you know this is something wasn't launched but everybody loves iPlayer in

00:40:57   this country it's the BBC's online system where you can watch their shows

00:41:01   and it's free and as long as you put your TV license but the interesting part

00:41:04   is they have a link to it they have a whole page that they built on apple.com

00:41:09   promoting the iPlayer like if you go to apple.com/UK right now is one of the

00:41:13   little banner items down the bottom. And you can click it, and I'll put a link in the show

00:41:18   notes to the actual page that Apple have built displaying iPlayer as a big feature, because

00:41:23   it is a big feature. They really should have endeavored to have it here on day one, but

00:41:28   they've got it now, and they're promoting it as a big part of the Apple TV in the UK.

00:41:33   >> And this is the—I made this point about the Apple Watch a little bit too, but in the

00:41:37   end, you know, the bulk of sales and the bulk of experience with this stuff is probably

00:41:44   going to happen, a lot of these products is going to happen around Christmas. It's going

00:41:49   to happen in December. And so they should have had this stuff at launch, but they have

00:41:53   it now, which means that if people buy an Apple TV for Christmas and it's under the

00:41:57   tree, well, it's going to be there. They're not going to care.

00:42:02   If they couldn't get it for launch,

00:42:04   it's good that they got it for Christmas.

00:42:06   Yeah.

00:42:07   Because that's the time.

00:42:08   But I just thought it was really interesting

00:42:10   that they made such a big song and dance about it.

00:42:12   But what is funny about all of this, of course,

00:42:15   is they've created a page to it, but there's nothing you can do.

00:42:20   Right, you still have to go and search for it?

00:42:22   There's nothing you can do for it.

00:42:23   And Joe Steele has said to me that it's apparently

00:42:29   appearing on Apple TVs in the UK.

00:42:31   I have not seen this.

00:42:32   - That's interesting.

00:42:33   If you're in the UK, maybe you just get it.

00:42:35   That's cool.

00:42:37   - Yeah, that's weird though.

00:42:38   But hey, I mean, I like it, so I'm having it there.

00:42:41   - Just do it.

00:42:41   Just put it there.

00:42:42   - But it's interesting that they're just shoving it in.

00:42:45   But hey, hey, yo.

00:42:46   Wonderful floats your boat, man.

00:42:48   Everybody loves iPlayer here.

00:42:50   I don't think it's gonna be an issue.

00:42:51   - Well, I could argue that it would make,

00:42:53   it would make a more pleasurable Apple TV setup experience

00:42:57   in America if you had,

00:42:58   if they just went ahead and auto installed a handful of the most common sort of video

00:43:04   services and things rather than making people do it. Wouldn't it be better if Netflix was

00:43:08   available right out of the box?

00:43:10   - Yep.

00:43:11   - Probably. And is it really a big deal if you don't want it? Or if it auto downloads

00:43:15   when you set it up? Or it prompts you and says, "Would you like me to install these

00:43:19   things instead of having to go to the app store?" I don't know. They'll work on it.

00:43:22   They'll get it better. And they'll get statistics about who's using what and they can use that

00:43:26   to guide it too.

00:43:27   For sure. I mean, I guess they can't really put Netfl- it's more difficult to put Netflix

00:43:33   on there because it's not free. Right? People still have to sign up for an account. It's

00:43:40   not kind of, you know, it's not guaranteed that you can have access to it. But in the

00:43:46   UK, if you have a TV, you should be paying your TV license.

00:43:51   Right. So you should have access to iPlayer.

00:43:53   You should be able to get access to iPlayer.

00:43:55   Interesting. Yeah, there's tweets that Joe Steele has pasted in the chat room from people

00:44:00   saying it definitely just appeared on their Apple TVs.

00:44:05   I don't have a problem with that. I'm sure people will throw the YouTube argument in.

00:44:09   Bono approves.

00:44:10   Yeah, Bono gave the stamp of approval on this decision. All right, should we take a break?

00:44:16   Yeah.

00:44:17   Nice Doctor Who image on that BBC iPlayer page on Apple site, by the way. Just throwing

00:44:20   it out there.

00:44:21   That's that's a good you got a good Venn diagram there, right? Mm-hmm, you know, Doctor Who

00:44:25   What says BBC more like Doctor Who?

00:44:28   BBC, Apple lovers, Doctor Who, there's it there's got to be a crossover

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00:47:37   to Warby Parker for their support of this show. Go to warbyparker.com/upgrade to sign

00:47:41   up today.

00:47:44   So Mr Snell, a couple of weeks ago you published a little article that I thought was interesting

00:47:50   and I think that some of our listeners might do too, which was the use of a service called

00:47:55   Cast. Could you explain to listeners what Cast is all about?

00:47:59   - So Caust, I like that you went with that.

00:48:03   You just got you there, didn't I?

00:48:05   - It's Caust.

00:48:06   See, you have to buy it and it costs.

00:48:09   No.

00:48:09   - Let me try it in your way.

00:48:11   Caust.

00:48:12   - Well, yes, it's a pod blank.

00:48:15   That's the word you're looking for, C-A-S-T.

00:48:19   Caust is a service, takes advantage.

00:48:21   There are a few of these that were beta testing this summer

00:48:23   and this one launched last week, two weeks ago.

00:48:27   And it is a service you pay, you subscribe,

00:48:30   although there's a trial.

00:48:32   And it uses technology that exists in Chrome,

00:48:38   though not yet in Safari,

00:48:40   that allows some very clever things to happen.

00:48:43   So basically it's a podcast service.

00:48:45   And what you do is as a subscriber to CAST,

00:48:48   you are the host essentially of a podcast.

00:48:51   And you say, I'm gonna do a new podcast.

00:48:53   And you get a link, a shareable link

00:48:55   that you send to your guest or guests.

00:48:57   And I think you can have up to three guests

00:48:59   and they click on the link and open it in Chrome.

00:49:03   They have to open it in Chrome, it won't work in Safari.

00:49:05   And they connect to your show page.

00:49:08   And then once you're on that page,

00:49:10   you can all hear each other.

00:49:12   And what Cast is doing in the background is,

00:49:14   you pick your microphone that you're using

00:49:17   and it compresses the audio

00:49:20   like you would with Skype or Google Hangouts

00:49:22   or something like that and sends it up to the server

00:49:24   and then relays it to the other people. So, and that way it's just like Skype. It's not

00:49:28   any different. You hear other people's voices. And you're all looking at the same webpage

00:49:33   and you can actually send little notes to each other. So again, it's a little bit like

00:49:37   Skype. The big difference is that with Cast, you are also, while you're sending that audio

00:49:44   up, it's also recording your microphone at a much higher quality and uploading that in

00:49:51   the background to its server. So when the podcast is over, oh, and as a host, you decide

00:49:59   when everything starts recording and you click the button and the recording begins. So your

00:50:05   guests don't need to remember to press the record button, which believe me, people forget.

00:50:12   They don't need to launch software that they use to record their own audio because the

00:50:15   best sounding podcast, you record your own audio and then transfer the file later. And

00:50:20   That's what we do in all the Relay Podcasts.

00:50:23   So Cast does all of that.

00:50:24   So when you're done with the conversation, the host press stop, and Cast will bring up

00:50:28   a little dialog box that says, "Please wait while I upload the rest of your local file."

00:50:32   It usually doesn't take very long because usually if there's enough bandwidth, it's

00:50:35   been kind of sneakily uploading chunks of it in the background.

00:50:40   When all is said and done, what Cast has is your local recording version of everybody

00:50:45   who was in the conversation, and you can do a few things with that.

00:50:48   You can actually edit it in the Cast app on the web. Basically, it's got some pretty simple

00:50:54   trim and insertion functionality, so you can trim the beginning and end of the podcast

00:51:03   and remove some mistake in the middle and drop in an ad and put in some music. But it's

00:51:07   rudimentary, but you can do it. You can also just download the audio files as a bundle,

00:51:12   and it will let you as the host download everybody's individual tracks for you to take away and

00:51:17   at it yourself. And I think that's really interesting because it allows you to get pretty

00:51:24   good audio quality out of people without them having to do any of those things that are

00:51:31   a little more complicated, like launching an app or downloading and launching an app

00:51:34   and pressing record and then saving the file out in the right format and then remembering

00:51:38   to transfer it to you in a timely fashion. That all happens behind the scenes. All they

00:51:42   have to do is go to a web page in Chrome and talk. And you can even tell what microphone

00:51:47   they're using because if you if you hear it that's the microphone that it's using

00:51:52   and so you you know what the recording is going to sound like so I think it's

00:51:56   pretty clever and what was your impression of the the quality of the

00:52:02   audio that was produced like what did it did it was it comparable in to the stuff

00:52:08   that you would usually call of me you would usually recorded like core

00:52:11   recorder or yeah I Jack yeah it seems to be it seems to be like 128 or 192 mp3

00:52:17   that's going up to the server, which is pretty good. I have some people who record their

00:52:21   audio lossless, but I don't. It's not really necessary. Voice is so simple a thing that

00:52:27   it can easily be encompassed in a 128 or a 192 file. So I was actually quite happy with

00:52:34   it. I did an episode of TV Talk Machine, Episode 62, and I didn't edit with that. I just downloaded

00:52:43   the file, but my co-host Tim, I usually just record using Skype and I don't even bother

00:52:48   to have him. He is not a very technical person, so I do not have him set up something and

00:52:53   record it and send me his file and all that. It's just like it's too much trouble. But

00:52:57   with this, I didn't have to do that and it worked fine. So I might do it again. I'm not

00:53:01   sure in the end if for a two-person conversation, if your connection is stable, it's really

00:53:07   necessary to record their end of the conversation because it's when you get more than two people

00:53:14   or if somebody sounds really bad and you know Skypey and robotic that you need to rely on

00:53:20   that. So I was pretty happy with that. You know it's we when you and I tried it we had

00:53:29   some this summer there were a lot of artifacts and it was no good.

00:53:31   >> Yeah this is in the beta like just to kind of to say we tried it in the beta period and

00:53:36   we weren't very impressed with it, but you seem to have had better experiences than what

00:53:40   we had. Basically, we just got some really bad sounding audio files out at the end of

00:53:43   it.

00:53:44   Yeah, but in the beta. And then you said that you—so Dan and I are now doing a podcast

00:53:49   for Six Colors subscribers, and we did the first one using this as a test, and I thought

00:53:55   it sounded okay, although you said you heard some artifacts in it.

00:53:58   Yeah, I definitely did. It's difficult to explain them, but just there were times where

00:54:03   I would hear what sounds like you're a little bit underwater.

00:54:08   Yeah, I'm not quite sure what was going on. That one I tried to edit using their tools

00:54:13   and export out the final flattened version.

00:54:15   Yeah, it sounds like they were doing some really heavy compression on it that was screwing

00:54:19   things up.

00:54:20   Well, and then what happened was the compression that they were--they have a compression setting

00:54:24   that they let you do that is supposed to level everything out and it was overmodulating everything,

00:54:28   so I ended up having it come out uncompressed and running it through Levelator, which also

00:54:33   can make things sound weird, but it sounded better. But generally, I think for my use,

00:54:38   I would just take the files away and do my own editing. But if you're somebody who wants,

00:54:44   I think this is encouraging because if you want to do group podcasts and you don't want

00:54:47   to have a whole lot of software and setup and all of that, and you really just want

00:54:52   to get that conversation, you could do it all in the browser. I feel like it's missing

00:54:59   some key features like being, if somebody coughs on one of the tracks, you should be

00:55:03   able to take that out.

00:55:04   >> Yeah, because currently you can't do that.

00:55:05   >> No.

00:55:06   >> Like, if you want to remove something, you remove it from all tracks, not single

00:55:09   tracks, which is kind of a bit crazy.

00:55:11   If you ever edited a podcast, you know how crazy that is.

00:55:14   Really, you need to be able to take parts out of each track.

00:55:18   >> And it sounds like they're working on it.

00:55:19   I talked to their developers, and they said that they're working on that and some of the

00:55:23   challenges are how you do that with a good interface in the web browser.

00:55:27   But they are working on it.

00:55:28   It's an interesting service and has the potential to make it easier for regular people to, you

00:55:33   to get on a podcast without a lot of technical hassle. And I think that's good. Most of my

00:55:39   panelists for shows are old hands at this now, and it's not an issue. But I could see

00:55:45   how this would be great if you were working for a radio station or a podcast that you've

00:55:50   got sort of random people coming on all the time, that this would be, as long as they've

00:55:55   got Chrome, which you can download for free on every platform.

00:55:59   That's the problem though, right? Because it's like this is this is good for

00:56:04   Basically not having to tell somebody how to download and install a new Skype

00:56:09   Yeah, but you still need them to go and download Chrome

00:56:12   I mean, I don't need to sign up for an account which is at least one step which is better, right?

00:56:17   But they still have there's still some hand-holding that has to be done if they don't already have Chrome if they do have Chrome

00:56:23   You're off to the races because send them an email of a link in it and just say go here and then

00:56:28   it's done.

00:56:29   And my daughter has a Chromebook, and, you know, Chromebooks were not suitable for podcasting,

00:56:34   and now they are. Because this is—because they only will do whatever runs in the browser,

00:56:40   but this runs in the browser. And then I had that moment where I realized—because I wrote

00:56:45   about this and I tweeted about it, and I had some people misunderstood and thought that

00:56:48   I was saying you could do this on the iPad. I'm also talking about podcasting on the

00:56:51   iPad. These are not the same conversation. But imagine—so imagine if Safari—this

00:56:57   is the real thing, and I don't know if Apple plans on doing this, but imagine if Safari

00:57:00   is updated at some point to support this. I think it's part of a standard. It's like

00:57:05   an audio spec where you can record and upload audio, and it's using some very specific features

00:57:11   that are implemented by Chrome but haven't yet been implemented by Safari. But what if...

00:57:15   - Well, I guess what it's doing is using some of the frameworks that Google Chrome have

00:57:20   being able to store information as well, right? Like what's built into Chrome OS, which is

00:57:25   is also part of Google Chrome.

00:57:28   - I think--

00:57:30   - 'Cause it has to be able to store the audio somewhere

00:57:32   in a cache whilst it's uploading it.

00:57:35   - Yeah, I think it's using WebRTC,

00:57:39   which is not yet, not as supported.

00:57:42   You may be able to use Firefox and Edge too.

00:57:45   I think it's just Safari that doesn't do this, but.

00:57:48   - This goes all the way back to that discussion

00:57:50   from a couple of months ago, right?

00:57:52   About Safari kind of lagging behind.

00:57:54   - Oh yeah, yeah, this is a question is like, is this a...

00:57:58   So I can't tell you what Apple's opinion

00:58:01   of these features are, but I can tell you that

00:58:04   if Safari used this, that would be really interesting.

00:58:06   And if Safari used this on iOS, it would be very interesting

00:58:11   because then you have a scenario where

00:58:15   if you can plug a microphone into an iPad or an iPhone

00:58:17   and Apple updated iOS 9.2,

00:58:23   supports even more USB devices on iPhones.

00:58:26   iPads already supported them.

00:58:27   And yes, there are power issues

00:58:29   where some microphones require that you have a powered hub,

00:58:32   but some don't.

00:58:33   But it would be very interesting

00:58:35   if you could launch a browser and go to this website

00:58:39   on an iPad or a Mac or a Chromebook or a PC

00:58:44   or an Android device.

00:58:47   And as long as a microphone was attached,

00:58:50   you could record a podcast.

00:58:51   and it didn't matter because the service

00:58:53   was doing the recording,

00:58:55   the audio was getting uploaded automatically.

00:58:57   That's really interesting to me,

00:59:01   but unfortunately it just doesn't work now.

00:59:04   So short of either Cast doing an app on iOS,

00:59:09   which seems unlikely because they would have to implement

00:59:12   WebRTC or whatever else they're doing here,

00:59:14   or short of Apple,

00:59:16   I think it's Apple allowing Chrome to run on iOS

00:59:20   with its own engine, which also seems to be unlikely, it really is gonna be a matter of

00:59:24   will there be an update to Safari at some point in iOS and on the Mac that supports

00:59:29   this functionality. I don't know if that'll happen or not, but it's interesting. It's

00:59:35   intriguing stuff. And I'd like to see it. It's a cool use of... The incumbents like

00:59:42   Skype seem to not... They don't care that everybody's using them for podcasting. So

00:59:46   this is an interesting alternative. It is a paid alternative if you're the host, the

00:59:50   guests are free, but if you're a host. But I thought it was really interesting. It's

00:59:54   one of the more intriguing attempts at a podcast recording system that I've seen.

00:59:59   Shall we do some Ask Upgrade? I think that's a great idea.

01:00:03   This week's Ask Upgrade is brought to you by GoToMeeting. I want you to just for a moment

01:00:08   picture what it can be like to set up a meeting in today's world, right? You know, when I'm

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01:00:18   the globe today you ask somebody if they're free for a meeting or check

01:00:22   their calendar you try and book it in you can finally find a time with

01:00:25   somebody and you get it all set you get the meeting arranged but they need to

01:00:28   find a room or a place like where are they where are these rooms and places

01:00:32   it could be in the building that you're in or maybe you have to go somewhere

01:00:35   else another building to get to a room where you can actually both sit down

01:00:39   together you've got to try and book that room I remember when I worked in a big

01:00:42   building with thousands of people inside you couldn't find a room for love nor

01:00:46   money for weeks in advance. You had to try and call people to beg and plead with the

01:00:50   administration team so they could try and get you a room set up and you know it was

01:00:54   just insane. Then you need all the technical stuff. Let's say you want to do a presentation,

01:00:58   you got to make sure it's a projector, you got to have all the dongles. This is madness.

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01:02:34   Oh, I should mention Cast is Tri-cast, T-R-Y-C-A dot S-T.

01:02:41   I'll make sure it's in the show notes.

01:02:43   If you want to check it out, yeah.

01:02:44   If you do want to find those show notes on the web, they're over at relay.fm/upgrades/67,

01:02:50   and if you want to become a Relay FM member and support this show, there are buttons there

01:02:54   conveniently to allow you to do that.

01:02:59   And I will say that Cast also only officially supports Chrome, although other browsers do

01:03:07   support some parts of the WebRTC thing, just not Safari.

01:03:10   >> Okay, okay. What was that URL again? Was it trycast.com?

01:03:13   >> No, it's tryca.st.

01:03:16   >> Oh, yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, you need to go to the show. It's one of those tricky

01:03:24   domains.

01:03:25   >> Yeah.

01:03:26   Alright so the first Ask a Great Question this week comes from Luke.

01:03:31   Luke is thinking of buying an Apple Watch and wants to know if we think he should wait

01:03:36   for the rumoured Apple Watch 2 or buy one when hopefully they may be on sale just after

01:03:43   Christmas like we have Boxing Day sales here in the UK where I assume he referenced Boxing

01:03:48   Day.

01:03:49   So that means that some stuff will go on sale, maybe Apple will do a sale or some other company

01:03:53   will offer a sale on Apple Watch potentially, or maybe just at some point in the next couple

01:03:58   of months. Do you think that Luke should go ahead and get one now, or is it worth waiting?

01:04:04   I don't know. I feel like with the Apple Watch you should just do what feels right.

01:04:15   People are asking for upgrade advice here, Jason. We need to give this guy some advice.

01:04:19   - I have a hard, well, this is what I'm saying though,

01:04:21   is I have a hard time answering this question

01:04:23   'cause it depends on how much do you want an Apple Watch?

01:04:25   I feel like, I don't think there's a new Apple Watch imminent.

01:04:29   I mean, there are rumors that they're testing things

01:04:31   and that it may be that the new Apple Watch

01:04:34   will be like the old Apple Watch,

01:04:35   except it'll have a FaceTime camera,

01:04:36   which I'm not sure how compelling that is.

01:04:38   Hopefully there's more in there,

01:04:40   but are they really gonna release that in the spring

01:04:41   or is it gonna be the fall?

01:04:43   And do you wanna wait until the fall?

01:04:45   I don't know, it's a bleeding edge product.

01:04:48   So at the same time, it's hard to recommend it in the same way that I would recommend

01:04:53   an iPad or an iPhone because it's a first generation product.

01:04:57   I wear mine every day and I enjoy it, but it's not, it's totally going to get better

01:05:03   in the next few years.

01:05:05   And so sure, wait, wait, don't even wait for Apple Watch 2, wait for Apple Watch 3 if you

01:05:10   want to have a really spectacular Apple Watch.

01:05:12   But if you want to wear an Apple Watch now, then you should buy it.

01:05:16   And I think that's really my advice is I enjoy mine. I talk to people who really like theirs.

01:05:21   I think that the people who don't like the watch as much are perhaps, I think perhaps

01:05:28   there's a judgment about like what do we think it was going to be versus what it is. What

01:05:33   it is is not everything that perhaps people hoped it would be, I would say, but I like

01:05:39   what it is. I like that it gives me notifications and taps me on the wrist and tells me the

01:05:43   time and has little complications that give me other bits of information and monitors

01:05:49   my fitness stuff and is my alarm clock. There are lots of things I like about it, so I wear

01:05:54   it all the time. But your mileage may vary. But you know, if you can get a deal on one,

01:05:59   I don't feel like there's going to be one, I could be wrong, but I don't feel like there's

01:06:03   going to be a huge new Apple Watch that does everything and solves every problem and is

01:06:08   going to be out in the next few months. That seems highly unlikely to me.

01:06:11   I would say Luke if you find one on sale and the price is right for you then I would go for it.

01:06:16   Joe Steele in the chat room says what will we do about the Apple TV for the holidays?

01:06:26   Would I recommend one? Yeah you're the worst person to ask. Yeah because I'd just say like whatever

01:06:33   man. I'd say I'd say yeah I like it so I would say yeah I think I think it's a I think it's a

01:06:38   a pretty good product. But again, it comes down to what video services do they use and

01:06:46   do they want to play games and do they use a lot of Apple stuff and rent or buy a lot

01:06:50   of iTunes movies because it's the only box that'll do any of those things. I spend most

01:06:54   of my time on Mytevo now because Mytevo does Hulu and Netflix and Amazon Video. Plus, it's

01:07:05   my DVR, right? So I don't need a lot more other than the iTunes stuff, but I think at

01:07:12   this point it's a fun video box. I wouldn't... there are cheaper options. I mean, if somebody

01:07:19   just wants something cheap, get them a Fire TV stick for, what, $39. But I feel like it's

01:07:27   much more of a complete product in some ways than the Apple TV is because it's got... you

01:07:32   know, the Apple TV hardware is going to improve over the next three or four years in a way

01:07:35   that I don't think the Apple TV, the Apple, the Apple watch hardware will improve dramatically

01:07:39   because it's a first generation piece of hardware and Apple TV is not a first generation piece

01:07:43   of hardware. The OS is and the store is new, but the hardware is using not only just is

01:07:51   it the fourth generation of Apple TV hardware, but it's also based on all the iOS hardware

01:07:56   in a way that the Apple watch isn't so much because it's so miniaturized. It's a, it's

01:08:01   a much harder problem to solve.

01:08:04   >> Rajiv would like to know, is there any more evidence besides the support tech chat

01:08:10   thing that came out a couple of weeks ago that Amazon is bringing an app to the current

01:08:14   Apple TV? I haven't seen anything, I wondered if you've seen anything.

01:08:17   >> No, I think the only other evidence is that the Amazon apps are on iOS and therefore

01:08:22   it's not a big leap and that if they weren't going to put them on there that would be out

01:08:27   of spite more than anything else. And as we've talked about before, ultimately, Amazon wants

01:08:35   to be everywhere and they want to be indispensable everywhere. And they don't want there to be

01:08:39   other boxes that are impediments to becoming an Amazon customer because they don't support

01:08:44   Amazon's things. It's like Apple's not going to stop Amazon from being on the Apple TV.

01:08:49   So why would Amazon not go on the Apple TV, especially since they've got the iOS apps?

01:08:54   So my guess is that they will be there. But evidence? No. There's none of that.

01:09:02   Yeah. I think they'll do it because, you know, business, but it's just going to take them

01:09:06   a while because it's not maybe a priority.

01:09:08   Yeah. It may just be as simple as a development priority of, you know, what other stuff they're

01:09:14   working on across all fronts. Do they want to go through the holidays pointing everybody

01:09:19   at the at their own devices and then only after the holidays come in and drop it. That's

01:09:25   a you know that's part spite part strategy but yeah maybe I don't know. I don't know

01:09:30   I think it makes Amazon offering stronger to be on Apple TV because it allows them to

01:09:35   say we are everywhere including Apple's device instead of saying you know we're everywhere

01:09:40   except the new Apple TV. Why? That's not the game that I think Amazon is playing.

01:09:45   Jimmy wanted to know about my iPad Pro stickers so I mentioned I've been

01:09:51   putting stickers on the iPad Pro and he asked the question I think is an

01:09:55   excellent question and was something that I considered. Jimmy wants to know is

01:09:59   Myke placing his stickers on his iPad Pro to be viewable from any direction or

01:10:03   to be right side up when docked in the keyboard cover? So yeah on my MacBook Pro

01:10:08   the majority of my stickers are oriented to be viewed from whatever...

01:10:15   So say if you're looking at my MacBook when I'm using it, I have the lid open,

01:10:20   you would be able to read them all, right? They're placed in a way that they all kind of...

01:10:24   you know, they're placed in the landscape orientation so it all works out.

01:10:28   On my iPad Pro, because I can use it in any orientation and do, I considered this and

01:10:34   and they're all sticking in all different ways.

01:10:37   I have... so there will be stickers viewable from all orientations. I have

01:10:41   only got a small handful of stickers on there right now. I need to do some work

01:10:44   on choosing some stuff. Obviously I have less surface area which

01:10:48   is why I'm being a little bit more picky about it because

01:10:50   on the MacBook I have two surfaces to put stickers on.

01:10:54   So it's coming along, I have a few on there, some of my favorites and

01:10:58   a couple of relay stickers on there right now.

01:11:00   And I, but yeah, I am considering that they should be viewable from any and all orientation.

01:11:07   So it's a bit of a mixed bag.

01:11:08   This is a great question also.

01:11:10   I was thinking about this this weekend.

01:11:13   When I use the, I'm using the iPad Pro with the old Apple wireless keyboard and that in

01:11:18   case origami workstation thing that doesn't exist anymore.

01:11:22   One of the nice things about that is that you can use it in portrait or landscape.

01:11:26   And there are times when you're writing that actually having the tall screen is kind of

01:11:30   neat. It's kind of fun having that taller screen. Since it's a 4x3, it's not as dramatic.

01:11:36   You couldn't really, I think, it would be kind of crazy to have it be super tall if

01:11:40   it was a 16x9 device, but it's not. But most of the time, and Apple's keyboard cover works

01:11:46   this way, you're working on the iPad in landscape orientation. And I had this moment when I

01:11:52   was walking down the stairs at my sister-in-law's house, and I looked over and I saw my iPad

01:11:56   Pro sitting on the table in the workstation, or maybe it was in the keyboard dock, because

01:12:00   I also had the keyboard cover with me. Maybe it was in the keyboard cover, but regardless.

01:12:05   And I looked at it and I thought, why, other than that the iPhone and then the iPad are

01:12:15   like this, why is the Apple-oriented on the back in portrait and not landscape? I think

01:12:22   it's a mistake. I think the iPad Pro ought to have the Apple in landscape.

01:12:26   - Because it's...they're actually promoting it and showing this thing on, you know, in

01:12:32   ads and stuff as being used in landscape.

01:12:34   - Isn't landscape the primary orientation? Maybe it's not, but it seems like if you're

01:12:39   attaching a keyboard to it and propping it up on a table and working on it, a sideways

01:12:44   Apple maybe isn't what you want there. Maybe they just decided that it's too weird when

01:12:48   somebody holds it in portrait to have a sideways apple, but short of Apple patenting a new

01:12:54   system that auto-rotates the Apple logo based on the orientation of the device, it's a

01:13:02   hard problem to solve, but I just had a moment where I thought, "I'm not sure this device

01:13:08   is a primary portrait orientation device." It feels like a very landscapey product to

01:13:14   me, and yet the Apple placement would suggest either kind of brand inertia or a feeling

01:13:21   like the portrait is still the thing that the iPad is for. I'm not sure I agree with

01:13:28   the iPad Pro. In fact, if you look at the Apple website for iPads, well, it's laying

01:13:37   at a jaunty angle, isn't it? But Jupiter is being displayed with an orientation that

01:13:44   suggests that it belongs in portrait orientation on that page. And I think that's just kind

01:13:50   of funny because is it? Or is that just sort of...

01:13:52   I mean, I use mine in portrait a bunch.

01:13:56   I do too. I do too. There are a lot of things to be said for it, in fact. But the keyboard

01:14:01   work, you know, when you're doing the keyboard work, you're usually in landscape. I don't

01:14:06   I don't know. It's just funny. So that was that that ask upgrade question was was funny

01:14:11   because it made me think too about like what is the right thing to do. Perhaps your answer

01:14:14   is the best which is just all the great orientations are the way to do it.

01:14:20   Last upgrade question this week is actually from me to you.

01:14:24   Okay well this is unprecedented but I'll allow it.

01:14:28   How excited are you for Star Wars?

01:14:31   How excited are you for Star Wars?

01:14:33   I'm really excited. I'm very, very much looking forward to 11am on Thursday, when I will see

01:14:42   Star Wars before you. I'm very excited. I am. I saw a TV spot last night, which I hadn't,

01:14:54   it was on the TV, so there's nothing I could do about it. I was very, it had some stuff

01:15:00   in it that I hadn't seen yet and I was screaming whilst it was on I am getting extremely excited

01:15:07   now.

01:15:08   [laughter]

01:15:09   Well.

01:15:10   I had some really cool footage in it, Jason. I don't know if you've seen it or not and

01:15:14   I won't spoil it for anybody else but-

01:15:16   I probably have.

01:15:17   There was some stuff in it I hadn't seen and I was very excited so.

01:15:23   I think I've probably seen them all at this point.

01:15:25   But I listened to the incomparable episode which I'll put in the show notes because people

01:15:29   we should go and listen to that, where you and Ren and Jon and Dan were talking about

01:15:33   your excitement for it. And I was just wondering how you're feeling now. Is it the week?

01:15:38   - Yeah, well, I mean, that episode was funny because I had people asking me if it was a,

01:15:44   if it was a, like a spoilery episode. And the answer is, well, no, Jon was on it. And

01:15:50   Jon refuses to be spoiled. So of course not. It's about anticipation. It's about the fact

01:15:57   that this was all announced three years ago, and we've been talking about it since then,

01:16:02   and now it is upon us. So it's sort of like, what, you know, it's an interesting subject

01:16:07   about just anticipating Star Wars and what are our expectations and what are our concerns,

01:16:11   and I'm excited. I would say, yeah, I'm excited. How excited I am, you know, I am not at the

01:16:19   level of my friends who are total huge Star Wars fans. I read, I think, a couple of Star

01:16:27   Wars books and a few Star Wars comics, but I was never like, like I read dozens of Star

01:16:35   Trek books, but not Star Wars books. So I was always much more of a Star Trek fan. I

01:16:40   was much more, especially when I was about 14 or 13, much more of a Doctor Who fan, much

01:16:47   more of a Star Trek fan. Star Wars was always present and I love it, but I was never like

01:16:55   a super fan. You know, I did two months ago, I did buy tickets for opening night for Thursday

01:17:02   night at seven o'clock, even though my daughter has a final the next morning. So we're going.

01:17:09   You're going. Do your studying before and after, but we're going.

01:17:13   This is your problem now.

01:17:14   Yeah, exactly. I gave her two months notice. So, you know, so yeah, I definitely am excited

01:17:20   about it. I just, it's funny because, like, Jon is taking Friday off from work to go see

01:17:29   it. Jon is seeing it Thursday alone, Friday with his wife, and Saturday with his whole

01:17:34   family, right? I mean...

01:17:35   I'm pretty much considering that I'm taking the day off, right? Like, I don't know if

01:17:40   I'll be able to function completely.

01:17:42   - Yeah, see, so I think that's great.

01:17:46   I think that's really exciting.

01:17:47   There's not a lot that I am that enthusiastic about.

01:17:53   I think these days, I have a lot,

01:17:57   I spread myself kind of thin

01:17:58   where I'm enthusiastic about a lot of things,

01:18:00   but I'm not like super excited about one thing

01:18:03   like in this just eruption of fandom, not so much,

01:18:08   but I'm excited for it.

01:18:09   I'm looking forward to it.

01:18:10   I'm also, as I've gotten older, I've gotten really good at playing the game that it'll

01:18:14   be here eventually and that I'll, it'll be great when it gets here, but I'm not gonna,

01:18:21   I realized I had that, there's the phrase, basically, "I can't wait."

01:18:28   I can't wait, people say.

01:18:30   And it's, that actually in the last few years that started to strike me as a kind of a crazy

01:18:35   phrase.

01:18:36   It's kind of ridiculous.

01:18:37   I can't wait.

01:18:38   Well, first off, you have to.

01:18:40   - But I don't wanna.

01:18:43   - Get used to disappointment,

01:18:44   but you actually do have to wait.

01:18:46   And it'll be here before you know it.

01:18:48   And then it'll be gone before you know it.

01:18:50   And so, and there's a lot going on.

01:18:53   There's a lot to be excited about.

01:18:54   So for me, it's been like that thing on the,

01:18:56   I've had it hanging on a hook on my wall of like,

01:18:59   then the "Star Wars" movie will come out.

01:19:01   And the nice thing about that is,

01:19:04   by just kind of having it in the background

01:19:06   and not getting too worked up about it,

01:19:07   you turn around one day and you're like, "Hey, the new Star Wars movie is this week. All right."

01:19:11   And it's like not like I didn't know that it was coming, but you know, I don't know, by modulating

01:19:16   my enthusiasm a little bit, it's more bearable, the weight is more bearable, and then it's a

01:19:22   little more like a nice surprise or a nice gift when it finally does arrive. So I'm happy that

01:19:28   it's here and I'm looking forward to it and I hope it's really good and I hope it is fodder for many,

01:19:33   many discussions on podcasts.

01:19:35   I hope so too. I don't know where I'm going to talk about it, but I'm going to have to

01:19:40   talk about it somewhere.

01:19:41   Well, we may be doing like 10 episodes of The Incomparable about it for all I know,

01:19:45   so who knows. We'll do a little mini-mic at the movies maybe next week.

01:19:49   Yeah, that's what we'll do. Yep, good idea. Because, well, because plus, there's going

01:19:53   to be no tech news next week, right? There will be no tech news. Absolutely zero, zilch

01:19:57   is out of nothing, so.

01:19:58   We'll just talk about Star Wars next week.

01:20:00   We'll have something to talk about. We'll talk about Star Wars. So there you go. No

01:20:04   complaints about spoilers now, everyone. We've told you. Next week we will very likely be

01:20:08   talking about Star Wars.

01:20:09   We'll fire off the spoiler horn before, but maybe we'll have some good follow-up from

01:20:13   web browser experts explaining exactly why Safari will never support WebRTC and demanding

01:20:19   a much more clear definition of what a command line interface is.

01:20:23   And why Launchpad is superior to OS X. Just why it should be the only way of interacting

01:20:29   of anything. If we're ever hurting for topics, that's what I need to do is just

01:20:33   declare some feature of the OS, something that nobody uses, and then just watch the

01:20:39   watch the Irish... let's do it now. I'm gonna do it now, Myke. I'm gonna I'm gonna say...

01:20:44   Nobody uses dashboard. Yeah! Nobody uses dashboard. It's dead. Why is it even...

01:20:52   Why can you still turn it on? Take that. I was gonna use like grab or or network

01:20:58   image utility or grapher or something like that but no that's it dashboard

01:21:02   nobody uses dashboard it's for chumps yep chumps and the old school losers

01:21:08   right in right in if you disagree and we'll talk about dashboard next week see

01:21:13   we're making topics beautiful talking about making topics we're starting our

01:21:19   planning for the upgrade ease if you we've had a few suggestions of

01:21:22   categories if you do want to suggest a category for the upgrade ease please use

01:21:27   the hashtag #AskUpgrade when you do so and then we'll be able to...

01:21:31   Don't try to spell upgrade-ies, #upgrade-ies, because...

01:21:34   #AskUpgrade, please. Because then it goes into the document that

01:21:38   we use for the Ask Upgrade stuff, so it makes it really easy to find. If you want to find

01:21:42   our show notes for this week, as I said before, head on over to relay.fm/upgrade/67. If you

01:21:47   want to find Jason online, he is over at SixColors.com and you can also find his other great podcasts,

01:21:53   as well as these relay shows you can find these other great podcast over at the incomparable.com

01:21:58   there's a lot of great stuff there and also Jason is @Jsnoel on Twitter J S N E double

01:22:04   L I am @imike I M Y K E thanks again to GoToMeeting, Warby Parker and Linda.com for helping support

01:22:10   this week's show we'll be back next time until then say goodbye Mr Snow may the force be

01:22:15   with you and with you

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