0:00:00[Music]
0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode number 66.
0:00:12Today's show is brought to you by Braintree, Audible, and Casper.
0:00:17My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined as always by the lovely Mr. Jason Snell.
0:00:22Hi Myke, how's it going?
0:00:23I'm very well, sir. How are you? I'm back.
0:00:25Yeah, welcome back.
0:00:26Welcome back. We had Merlin Mann to replace you last week.
0:00:30It was very nice of him.
0:00:31- What a great guest.
0:00:32What a great co-host, I should say.
0:00:34- Yeah, he was great.
0:00:35It was, that was a lot of fun.
0:00:37It is, I miss you when you're gone,
0:00:39but it is also fun to replace you with wacky,
0:00:43unexpected people who drop in for a week.
0:00:46It was a lot of fun to talk about.
0:00:47I don't talk to Merlin about that stuff.
0:00:48I hear him talking about stuff,
0:00:50and we talk on "Incomparable" sometimes about,
0:00:52you know, about movies and stuff,
0:00:55but we don't do the tech breakdown kind of thing.
0:00:59So that was a lot of fun.
0:01:00- Yeah, it's always nice to him and talk about tech.
0:01:02He has the down report report now
0:01:05where he talks about that stuff more frequently.
0:01:07- Right.
0:01:08- But it's always nice.
0:01:11- Yeah, no, it was a lot of fun to get him.
0:01:13He just has a very different perspective
0:01:14and we had a moment where it's like,
0:01:17let's not be negative,
0:01:19which I thought it was actually a good moment
0:01:21'cause we've gotten that feedback too
0:01:22about sometimes that were negative on the show and the idea is that we're critical about
0:01:27things. And we don't want it to be unrelentingly bleak and awful and all of that, but we do
0:01:31want to view things kind of critically and that means sometimes saying that we're disappointed
0:01:35with something. And I like Merlin's approach to that, which I think is the same for all
0:01:41of us, but doesn't always go, it's not always stated and Merlin stated it, which is, look,
0:01:47we do love this stuff in general and we care about it. And the reason we complain about
0:01:51it is because we care about it and because we like it and because we're going to use
0:01:55it and that is, you know, I've been using Apple products since I was in eighth grade
0:02:01and that was for me a long time ago and that I'm going to keep using Apple products. That's
0:02:07not, it's just not going to, they would have to do a lot for me to leave, but since I'm
0:02:11committed that makes me care even more about what Apple and related subjects do and if
0:02:18If I see something that I don't like, I do feel the need to talk about it.
0:02:21But that was really great that Merlin framed it in that way, because it's absolutely true,
0:02:25and that was a lot of fun.
0:02:26And we talked for like two hours, which I apologize for the length of last week's episode,
0:02:31but I just, you know, I couldn't stop, and he couldn't stop, and so we just kept going.
0:02:37Yeah, I had to catch up.
0:02:39It's always funny whenever I travel, because I end up with the amount of shows to listen
0:02:44to that everybody else does.
0:02:46Yeah.
0:02:47seems like a lot, so I appreciate people listening every week.
0:02:50Yeah, absolutely. There are a lot of podcasts out there, a lot of choices, so we appreciate
0:02:54you making Upgrade one of your podcast choices.
0:02:57Talking about choices and great podcasts, as of today, Relay FM now has a membership
0:03:03program. And we've been thinking about doing something like this for a while, mainly because
0:03:09since we began, really, just over a year ago, we've always had people saying to us, "We
0:03:15to give you money we want to give you money and this is some people because
0:03:18they have already bought all of their websites and domains and mattresses and
0:03:23there are just some people that just want to give us that little bit more
0:03:26because they love what we do so we now have a membership program you can I'll
0:03:29put a link in the show notes you can go to relay.fm/membership we have
0:03:33three tiers on the membership we have two monthly tiers silver and gold silver
0:03:37is $5 a month gold is $10 a month then we have an annual tier for $100 a year
0:03:42year. Now with that all of those plans come with the same perks so on our
0:03:47anniversary week in August every year there'll be bonus episodes of every show
0:03:51we'll be doing some fun stuff and there'll be some episodes that will be
0:03:54exclusive for members. We're going to be doing a monthly behind-the-scenes
0:03:57newsletter that Steven is going to be taking care of and at our store the
0:04:01Relay FM store you can get 15% off anything so this is t-shirts we're going to
0:04:05have some new t-shirts coming soon a 2016 design we also have some buttons
0:04:09and stickers you can get 15% off anything they're just for members and
0:04:12We're going to be adding more perks as the membership grows and as time goes on and we
0:04:16think of other really cool things that we want to do.
0:04:19Now we've got this broken down in a couple of different ways.
0:04:22If you want to, if you love all of the great shows, you can donate to all of the great
0:04:26shows.
0:04:27You can become a member of all of them and give your money for those.
0:04:30But you can also give to your favorite shows.
0:04:34When you go to the page you'll see every show is there and of course on all the show pages,
0:04:38So if you go to relay.fm/upgrade,
0:04:40you'll see the buttons there as well
0:04:42for you to be able to donate to your favorite shows.
0:04:44And all of the money goes to the hosts, right,
0:04:47outside of fees.
0:04:48So we wanna give as much money to the hosts as possible
0:04:51with all of the shows.
0:04:52So if you really love certain shows,
0:04:54you know, if there's a couple
0:04:55or one show that you really love,
0:04:57I would urge you to give money to that show
0:04:59because then the hosts of that show get more money.
0:05:02Because if you donate to all of the shows,
0:05:05it gets split amongst all of the hosts, obviously.
0:05:07- Yeah, it's super diluted then,
0:05:09'cause it's every host on every show on the network,
0:05:12and that they're a lot.
0:05:14- And that's why we wanted to do this.
0:05:16I mean, it would have been really easy,
0:05:17and many other people do it this way,
0:05:19many other networks and stuff in the past has done it
0:05:22this way that you just give to everything.
0:05:24But we wanted to have it that you could also give
0:05:26to each show because the primary concern here for us
0:05:30as a business is to get more money to our hosts
0:05:33and for you to be able to support the shows
0:05:35that you really, really love.
0:05:37This isn't changing our business
0:05:38in a massively significant way.
0:05:40Like we're still advertising supported.
0:05:43I expect that not to change, at least for a long time.
0:05:46But this is just another way for some of our hosts
0:05:51and me and you who are self-employed
0:05:53to kind of diversify their income a little bit.
0:05:56And also lets you directly support the stuff
0:05:58that you really love.
0:05:59We were talking about this a couple of weeks ago, right?
0:06:02That you're doing it now.
0:06:03I think this is something that you're gonna get used to seeing a lot more of.
0:06:08And you don't have to pay for everything, right?
0:06:09Pick the things that you love the most and pay for them.
0:06:12Absolutely.
0:06:13But I think that over the next couple of years, this is going to become a way that people
0:06:17interact with stuff that they like, they give it money.
0:06:20Yeah, and the places will, I think everybody's going to expect that it's going to be the
0:06:26most enthusiastic people who give the money.
0:06:28So it's going to be the top whatever 5%, 2% that are going to be the ones.
0:06:33And that's fine. I think that's why these sorts of things exist. It's not, you know,
0:06:38you get all the episodes of Upgrade, whether you pay us or not. We'll do a bonus episode
0:06:42in August that will be for the people who support the show. But otherwise, it's not
0:06:49changing the show. It's just another way, with Six Colors, I had the same thing. It's
0:06:53like, I want to support what you're doing so that you can keep doing it. How do I do
0:06:57that? Because I'm not going to ever be a sponsor. And when you have a medium that is entirely
0:07:01ad supported, free with ad support, you don't have that other mechanism. Back in the day
0:07:06with magazines and things, right, they had ads but you also paid. And the web totally
0:07:11uncoupled that and paywalls don't really work, so that's not a way to solve this issue.
0:07:18So instead we have this, which is optional support. And what I like, so you and Stephen
0:07:23Hackett and I talked about this a lot in Indianapolis when we were there. We had a little relay
0:07:28meeting which was really exciting because I don't get to go to meetings anymore. I used
0:07:31to hate meetings because I had a job and I had lots of meetings, and now I don't get
0:07:35to have those meetings very often. But we had a great meeting in Indianapolis, and we
0:07:39talked about this a lot. And one of the things that was very clear to me was the way you
0:07:42guys approached this was, this is about supporting the hosts of the shows. And that's why people
0:07:47can support a specific show. So if you really love Upgrade, and Upgrade is one of those
0:07:50podcasts you listen to every week, and you feel like this is the one, this is the one
0:07:55you want to support, you can do that and your support will come to me and Myke. And if you
0:07:59love another show on Relay, you can support that show instead or in addition, and it will
0:08:05go to the host. It's not one of these things where it's all just sort of being absorbed
0:08:09by Relay as a company. The idea here is to directly support the host. So it's just another
0:08:14route. And if you don't, if you like us but you don't have the money, you don't have the
0:08:19time, you prioritize other things, you need to pay your mortgage, that's fine. We'll still
0:08:25be here and other people will chip in on the support side and we've got the advertising
0:08:30on that side and it's all good. So it's just another option for people and I like that
0:08:35about it.
0:08:36So yeah, go check it out, relay.fm/membership or just go to the show page of any of your
0:08:43favorite shows and you can find all the buttons you're gonna need there and we'll be talking
0:08:46about this more I'm sure as time goes on so you'll be able to find out more information.
0:08:53that time of year again, Jason.
0:08:55- Time where we ask for money?
0:08:57No.
0:08:57- No.
0:08:58- It is that time too, but no, it is.
0:09:00So last year I gave you a hard time
0:09:02because you were very excited
0:09:03about the first annual Upgradies,
0:09:05our awards for our favorite things of the year.
0:09:09And I pointed out that nothing can be a first annual.
0:09:12It's only annual when you do it for a second straight year.
0:09:15So I'm pleased to announce
0:09:18that we're going to do the second annual Upgradies.
0:09:20Woo!
0:09:21- Yes.
0:09:22And that'll be our episode of December 28th.
0:09:26- Yes, so it's gonna be the last episode of the year.
0:09:29We will be doing the second annual Upgrading Awards.
0:09:33I'm so excited.
0:09:34And we wanna have you guys get involved.
0:09:37So we did this last year a little bit,
0:09:39but now everybody kind of has an understanding
0:09:42for what the Upgrading is.
0:09:44And if you haven't heard it,
0:09:45I will put a link in the show notes
0:09:46so you can go and listen to last year's Upgrading Awards.
0:09:49we would like your suggestions for categories.
0:09:53Now, I don't wanna restrict this in any way,
0:09:56suggest whatever you like.
0:09:58Whatever you think should be given an award to by me
0:10:01or Jason, then you should send out a tweet.
0:10:04- We had silly award categories
0:10:05and serious award categories, it's all good.
0:10:07- Exactly, you wanna send a tweet in the usual way,
0:10:10put the hashtag #askupgrade, we will see them
0:10:12and we will collect them all up
0:10:14and we will be able to create some fantastically fun
0:10:17categories for the Upgradies as suggested by you and that's going to be in a few weeks time and we're hoping to extend the Upgradies
0:10:25In an exciting and new way this year as well. Yeah, I'm hoping we'll get some other relay hosts involved in some way
0:10:31What I'd really like to do is have the Upgradies
0:10:33just like steal all the awards brain power from relay FM and
0:10:39Concentrated and upgrade so that my so that my show has all the power and then it becomes immortal. I don't know
0:10:46That's a real lofty goal you've got there buddy.
0:10:50Yeah sure.
0:10:51Well because what I'm, what I was thinking about why we should maybe try and get some
0:10:54of the people involved is some of the categories probably our opinions may not have changed
0:10:58in so I want to get some extra voices in them.
0:11:00I think that is the more practical reason is it would be fun to get some other people
0:11:04involved because it may be you and me going yeah it's fine you know same thing same same
0:11:10and that's not you know hello internet flophouse yep all right moving on.
0:11:15I think the Flop House would make a return, winner of the year, I think.
0:11:19It's possible. We'll have some Ask Upgrade about that later, I think.
0:11:23Oh, excellent.
0:11:24I wanted to mention a fantastic piece of...
0:11:27I don't even know what this type of follow would be,
0:11:29up, out, in, or shake it all about or something.
0:11:33But we have from Unai, and Unai has created the follow chart,
0:11:38in which he has attempted to diagram the different uses of follow up, follow in, follow out,
0:11:45"Follow By" which is a new one coined by Merlin. So this, if you have been confused about what
0:11:51we're talking about here, Unai has created an incredibly useful chart which I will put
0:11:57in the show notes. That will confuse you further. Maybe.
0:12:02The earlier version of this chart had referred, made me laugh out loud because it said
0:12:12not ever used for "follow forward" or "follow away" or whatever, but now it's actually been
0:12:21used.
0:12:22So...
0:12:23>> Excellent.
0:12:24>> It is confusing.
0:12:25"Follow out," "follow in," "follow by."
0:12:26Yeah, "follow by."
0:12:27It's like a drive-by.
0:12:30Lots of other words out there in the English language to put after "follow," so stay tuned.
0:12:37>> You have a piece of follow-up here about scrubbing on the Apple TV.
0:12:40- Oh yeah, Marlin and I were talking about,
0:12:42and this is one of those things where you record it
0:12:44for a podcast and you know everybody's gonna tell you
0:12:46the answer and you're reluctant to even mention it,
0:12:49but you do.
0:12:49And then in this case, I was saying about how
0:12:53one of the problems with the Apple TV interface is that
0:12:55when you accidentally touch or you pick up the remote
0:13:00and you touch the track pad and it tries to scrub
0:13:03in the video and now you've got the scrubber interface
0:13:06up there and I had that moment where I'm like
0:13:07suddenly trying to scrub back to where I was
0:13:09match it up so I can let go and like, and I said I know that there's a way to do this
0:13:15where you can just say no no no I didn't mean to do that and everybody told me after I had
0:13:20already actually that night I immediately when we were done I went in and tried it,
0:13:23if you just press the menu button the scrubber interface goes away and then you're okay.
0:13:28So it's still annoying that it is bringing up the interface and kind of intruding on
0:13:32your video watching because you accidentally touched the trackpad but all you have to do
0:13:37is press the menu button and it all just backs away.
0:13:40It doesn't matter where you scrubbed to,
0:13:41it just sort of like backs you out
0:13:42because the scrubbing act doesn't change where you are
0:13:46until you click.
0:13:48So scrubber follow-up.
0:13:51- Yeah, I've been getting more and more frustrated
0:13:56with that as a thing.
0:13:58That with the fact that you pick it up
0:14:00and like, oh, I've scrubbed 10 minutes across.
0:14:03- I'm confused.
0:14:04I mean, this is, we have to get Joe Steele back.
0:14:07That's just what people want to hear because they'll be mad again.
0:14:11A lot of the Apple TV interaction is inconsistent and I'm getting frustrated with it.
0:14:16And I think again they'll put it all together, but like in the music playing,
0:14:21I can't figure out how to set an album or how to set a playlist to shuffle.
0:14:27I can't for the life of me figure that one out.
0:14:30In video playback, sometimes I feel like I can swipe down and get a bunch of controls at the top of the screen.
0:14:35Other times I can't. When I'm in the music playback, I think, well, can I swipe down
0:14:40to get more information like I can when I'm watching some videos? But I can't because
0:14:44the UI is different. These are apps from Apple. So I keep looking for some more consistency.
0:14:51I think it's not surprising that in a brand new product with this brand new app platform
0:14:54that maybe there's a lack of consistency, although it's a little disappointing when
0:14:58it's from Apple. But I'm hoping that a language and a kind of common understanding
0:15:03of what certain gestures will do and where things will be kept in an app will build up
0:15:08over time because, um, and then yeah, the accidental trackpad swipes aren't my favorite.
0:15:14But I mean, you know, I'm using it more and more. Um, I've watched Masters of, Master
0:15:21of None. Oh yeah. We watched the whole series on the Apple TV on the Netflix app. You know,
0:15:26it's pretty good. And I like that when I press the TV button, it turns my TV on. I'm in the
0:15:31lucky few where that actually happens because we've actually hooked it up to the big TV
0:15:35downstairs now.
0:15:38And I'm using it more for actually watching TV but now I'm not playing any games on it
0:15:42and I don't know.
0:15:46But we spent a lot of time on my trip last week at Marco and Tiff's house and we were
0:15:52playing a bunch of games on the Apple TV there so I can see how different people use it differently.
0:16:00I don't know, I just don't really know where I stand.
0:16:03My opinion is to keep changing a bunch.
0:16:06And now, all of the things that I was originally annoyed about, I'm not annoyed about so much
0:16:09anymore, but now I'm becoming annoyed about different things because I'm using it more.
0:16:13Well, the setup, you know, again, the pain of setup fades away after a while.
0:16:19I'll tell you one place where I'm using it a lot is with the music app.
0:16:24I was doing it on the weekend.
0:16:25I was doing some work downstairs and I opened up the music app and I put on Jonathan Cautner
0:16:30and John Warwick's Christmas album.
0:16:32It's the only way I can play Apple Music stuff on my speakers in my house because my existing
0:16:41digital music system doesn't support Apple Music.
0:16:45So I find myself turning on Apple TV just to play music, which is weird but it's fine
0:16:53and it works great other than like I get confused about
0:16:56can I shuffle this playlist and I'm not sure if I can.
0:16:59And the music app is a little more rudimentary
0:17:01I think than some of the other apps
0:17:02and I don't think it has Siri support yet.
0:17:04You know, one funny thing that people have mentioned
0:17:05that I would like to note is that the Siri search index
0:17:08on Apple TV is slow.
0:17:10And whether it's on the device or it's maybe up on the server
0:17:13but what I've noticed is TV shows get out added to iTunes
0:17:17and to the store and they're not in the index.
0:17:20So like they posted the Expanse,
0:17:23this new sci-fi series that's coming out next week.
0:17:25They posted the pilot for free on iTunes
0:17:28and I went on the Apple TV to go download it
0:17:30and I couldn't find it.
0:17:31And I ended up finding it in a featured icon in the TV app,
0:17:38but Siri couldn't find it, even though it was there.
0:17:42And it recognized the name I was searching for
0:17:44and it wouldn't, it said, I don't know what that is.
0:17:46And then I went and navigated to it and it was there.
0:17:48And I think I've seen that with a couple other
0:17:51types of content too, where it seems like there's lag,
0:17:53like a day of lag where Siri doesn't know new stuff
0:17:57that's in the store.
0:17:58And that's weird and not a great experience.
0:18:01So it's a work in progress, but I do like things about it.
0:18:03And having access to the Apple Music stuff
0:18:06in my living room is nice because I am using that more.
0:18:09And the stuff that I listen to that's only on Apple Music
0:18:13and that I don't own is not accessible on my Squeeze box.
0:18:16So I have to use the Apple TV for that.
0:18:18- Squeeze box.
0:18:20- Yeah, really nice technology
0:18:22that will never be updated again
0:18:23because it's been discontinued.
0:18:27One of these days I'm gonna have to commit to Sonos, I guess,
0:18:30which is very expensive, but good.
0:18:33- When I get my own house, I'm gonna get a Sonos.
0:18:36I know a few people that have them and they're awesome.
0:18:40- Yeah, yeah, I like them.
0:18:42I think they've solved some of their UI problems
0:18:44they used to be sort of featureless like one button boxes and they've got a
0:18:47little more complexity on the you can like pause and increase the volume and
0:18:52stuff on the on the hardware now they're pricey but it's gotten it's gotten a lot
0:18:58better in a lot of ways and they are out adding Apple T or Apple music support so
0:19:02that's gonna be a big a big win and that's well that will probably push me
0:19:06over to the edge to at least buy the one that can go in my stereo and play
0:19:09through my big speakers because then I will have access to that in the living
0:19:15room and that would be nice. Last piece of follow-up this week you and Merlin
0:19:20mentioned mailbox. Oh man. Unfortunately today... Why do bad things happen to good
0:19:27people Myke? Unfortunately today Dropbox announced and they actually said this in
0:19:34their tweet that they are sunsetting carousel and mailbox. Carousel, like I don't even know
0:19:40why they began it in the first place, but mailbox was a good app, it's a good product,
0:19:45but they're killing it and they're killing it like dead dead. It's not even like...
0:19:50It was a good app until they killed it, right? I mean, and then they killed it. They bought
0:19:54it and killed it. I mean, but it still works fine, right? Like, if you take it as it is
0:19:58right now like on an iPhone for example it works flawlessly by the most you know.
0:20:05Right they did a Mac version that was so promising and never got out of beta.
0:20:09Yeah and I use the Mac version every day I mean and it works right I mean like all
0:20:13it works it's fine it has problems but I use it on a daily basis like it does
0:20:18work but a lot of these sort of things what happens is you know they get killed
0:20:24or they get bought and then killed and then the apps kind of just fade away
0:20:31slowly over time right they just get old yeah this seems to just be that they
0:20:36made a mistake Dropbox just made a mistake they shouldn't have bought
0:20:39mailbox and they bought it and they ruined it yeah like what was what I
0:20:43mean you know it's not so much about that but like they're actually killing a
0:20:46lot of the good functionality on in February so like all of the snoozing and
0:20:51stuff like that, that's just gonna stop working.
0:20:54And I read it on the FAQ,
0:20:58if you have anything snoozed at a certain date in February,
0:21:00it's all just gonna arrive in your inbox.
0:21:02(laughing)
0:21:03Because all of that stuff is server side.
0:21:06- Yeah.
0:21:07- Right, so they're killing it.
0:21:08They're just, on February 26th,
0:21:09it's all just gonna fart into your mailbox basically.
0:21:14I don't really know how else to say it.
0:21:15So like they're killing it.
0:21:17Like it's just, and then it's all done.
0:21:19And so I'm reevaluating and I'm still working out what I want to do.
0:21:26Oh well.
0:21:28This is the story.
0:21:30This happens.
0:21:31This happens.
0:21:32Companies buy apps and they think that they're going to do something with them and it turns
0:21:34out that for better focus on their core business they should then get rid of them or integrate
0:21:39them into their existing product.
0:21:40And it's too bad because mailbox was a really great product and with another owner or independent
0:21:45maybe it could have been something better.
0:21:49Google inbox is similar and there are apps like Spark that are good at doing similar
0:21:58things.
0:22:00What mailbox sort of suggested as a method of dealing with email I think is something
0:22:05that is spreading, but the big problem is until there's a standard by which all of the
0:22:13kind of scheduling and deferring and things could happen, the problem is that you really
0:22:18need to use the same system everywhere you look at email and that's my problem with it
0:22:22is mailbox at least they had a Mac app and they had the iOS app but a lot of this stuff
0:22:30I mean I guess I could use Google inbox because I've got Gmail on my desktop just in a in
0:22:35a browser window but that's the problem is you know you can't say well I'll use this
0:22:39neat app on my iPhone but in on the desktop I'll just use Apple mail or something it's
0:22:43just not not not ideal so oh well RIP mailbox. Let me take a quick break and
0:22:51there's one other thing I want to touch on in regards to this mailbox thing
0:22:53actually there's from a question in the chat room which is very interesting this
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0:24:41So Jonathan in the chat room asked the question, "Do you guys think Dropbox might be secretly
0:24:46starting to go under?"
0:24:48Or, you know, to stretch this out a little bit more, are things like this, are they worrying?
0:24:57Like, do you know, Jason, do you look at this stuff and think, "Oh, maybe Dropbox is in
0:25:01trouble here."
0:25:02I don't, I actually look at this and think
0:25:05it shows some discipline that they lacked before.
0:25:08- Yeah, I completely agree.
0:25:09I think what this shows is Dropbox for Business
0:25:13has taken off.
0:25:13Like that's what I look at this and be like,
0:25:15that's the other thing that they're doing.
0:25:17Then you look at the other thing
0:25:18that they've done recently, Paper,
0:25:20which is a collaboration work tool, right?
0:25:23Which that suggests to me that they are going
0:25:26all in on business stuff,
0:25:28which is where the money is, right?
0:25:29The enterprise. - That's right.
0:25:31And consumer facing tools like photo services and email clients, the money isn't there.
0:25:37Well, this is, it is about focus, it is about asking what every business should, and possibly
0:25:43every person should ask themselves, which is what do I do better than anyone else? What
0:25:47is my thing that I do well? And businesses especially need to say, what are we about?
0:25:52What do we do better than anything else? That's what you should focus on. And when businesses
0:25:55get in trouble, it's because they lose track of that, or they try to spread out into areas
0:25:59where they're not as good and they don't do as good a job. And those are very difficult
0:26:03areas to succeed in because there are other people out there who do it better. So Dropbox
0:26:06is saying, "What we do really well is connect people who are working together and make their
0:26:13files available." And yes, that includes maybe people who are working at home and people
0:26:18who are spending for the personal version of Dropbox. I think that is part of what they
0:26:22do. It's like connecting files and things that you're working on and potentially with
0:26:28co-workers or friends and collaboration. And, you know, I'm sure they've got their concept
0:26:34down to a sentence or two. But I think when they made these acquisitions, they maybe thought
0:26:40they were either they thought they were someone else, or they thought this was what they were
0:26:45about and then realized that it was too far afield from what they were about. And so,
0:26:50you know, I see this as being disciplined. I'd be much more worried about a company
0:26:55that just started snapping up things that were totally unrelated to its core business
0:26:59and you went, "Huh, why did they do that?" Because that's what happened when Mailbox
0:27:03got bought by Dropbox is everybody went, "I guess." You know, it was not super clear about
0:27:09what the direct fit was. So I'd say that all those, this really stinks from a standpoint
0:27:13of somebody who liked Mailbox. I think it's a sign of discipline and Mailbox knowing what
0:27:19it wants to be and focusing on that. I think that's good for Dropbox.
0:27:23you never really know, right?
0:27:25But I kind of look at it and be like, well,
0:27:26Dropbox's key service is the thing that they charge you for,
0:27:31which is the space, right?
0:27:33And I can see why they went down the photos and email route,
0:27:37'cause it's another thing to put in the space
0:27:39that you pay for.
0:27:41But I think ultimately that will have made them some money,
0:27:44but not as much money as the business solutions
0:27:47could have made.
0:27:47And I agree, like if this isn't working for them now,
0:27:51I prefer them to just do it now and focus their business so Dropbox doesn't struggle
0:27:56and go away in the future.
0:27:59Because I need Dropbox more than I need Mailbox.
0:28:03I agree.
0:28:04I agree with that.
0:28:06And there, well the fact is there are other companies that are doing things like Mailbox
0:28:09and probably doing it better than Dropbox.
0:28:11So is that, you know, if you're Dropbox, do you look at this and say, "Look, Google is
0:28:16doing Inbox.
0:28:17Why are we even trying this?"
0:28:19because Google is going to be able to tie directly in with Gmail and all of its server
0:28:24stuff. And some of this stuff is now in Outlook on iOS, right? I mean, it's just, do we really
0:28:31need to be here? So I think that's all good. If you look at what Slack has done, and I
0:28:37saw somebody complaining on Twitter about this the other day that like, I wanted to,
0:28:41they said I wanted to pay for Slack and then I realized there's no way I'm going to pay
0:28:43for Slack because it's too expensive. Slack decided that it didn't even want an interim
0:28:48It was going to be very—Slack decided to be very generous with its free tier.
0:28:53And beyond that, it doesn't really want you to pay unless you're a big business.
0:28:57And if you're a big business, if you're a business with a budget who wants to pay
0:29:00for all the features that are of interest to business that they're building, then
0:29:06they want your money.
0:29:07But they don't want your money if you're going to be paying them $15 a month or $20
0:29:12a month because they don't want to maintain that audience, and it doesn't make them
0:29:18enough money, they would rather give it away for free, get it in places where people can
0:29:23have their minds blown by how great it is, and then go to the CFO and say, "We need
0:29:27this for our business, and we need these other features," or the IT person to say, "We
0:29:31really should have this be official. Let's do that." And that's their strategy. And
0:29:34I think it's probably a good one. In fact, I think if you were running Dropbox today,
0:29:37you might argue that what they should do is make the free tier much larger than it is
0:29:43now, and then have business. And, you know, as somebody who pays $100 a year or whatever
0:29:51for Dropbox, that would make me sad, and I don't think they're actually going to do
0:29:54this. But you could make the argument that they'd be better off doing that, which is
0:29:59what Slack does, which is, you know, make it super great for almost everybody to use
0:30:04your service and rely on it, and then if any business wants to use it, they pay you.
0:30:09With Slack, when I first started using Slack, when we first started using it for Relay,
0:30:14we looked at the prices and we were like, "We're never going to pay for this.
0:30:18It's too expensive."
0:30:19You know, looking at, for example, how much our hosting costs or whatever, you know.
0:30:23We pay nearly as much in hosting for one show, for upgrade, for example, a month, as it costs
0:30:29to pay for one person in Slack for a month.
0:30:33The prices are very similar, actually, with what we pay for at Libsyn.
0:30:37And then it got to the point where we were like, "Ah, Slack is so important to us now,
0:30:42there's a few features that we really need, okay, we're just going to have to do it."
0:30:46And by that time, our business had grown in people that we needed in Slack by like five
0:30:50times.
0:30:51So that's how you grow a business like them.
0:30:53Like, you know, it's genius.
0:30:55Like get people in the door, make them not be able to live without it, and then they'll
0:30:58start to pay you.
0:31:01So the short version of this is I think it's a good sign, which is not to say that it's
0:31:05a guarantee that Dropbox will be successful, but I think this isn't a company that is cutting
0:31:10costs and that's why it's going away. This is a company that's focusing. This is showing
0:31:15some discipline. I think it's a good sign.
0:31:16It's probably an engineering limit.
0:31:19Certainly.
0:31:21That's what I would look at this mostly, I think, as being. They have limited engineering
0:31:26resource.
0:31:27It's focus. I mean, even if you say with somebody like Apple, it's not just about the resources.
0:31:31about the focus is, is do we really want to have engineers and work with engineers who
0:31:36are working on this product that has nothing to do with who we are or what we do? Now,
0:31:40they could have chosen to spin it off to, you know, make it a make it a wholly owned
0:31:46subsidiary or something like that. But my imagination, I mean, my guess is that it's
0:31:51that the people aren't even don't even want to work on it. You don't you don't come to
0:31:55Dropbox and work on this app that's off in the corner, right? You don't want to go work
0:32:00at the app that's in the corner at Dropbox.
0:32:02So it makes -- yeah. I get it.
0:32:06It's just sad, but I get it. -Yep.
0:32:09All right. Let's talk about Sketch and the Mac App Store.
0:32:14So this happened late last week, right?
0:32:18Sometime last week. It was on December 1st.
0:32:20So on Tuesday of last week.
0:32:23Sketch posted a blog post on their site
0:32:27just basically saying that they were leaving the Mac App Store.
0:32:30Now, I had the pleasure and you had the pleasure of seeing Peter Onvely,
0:32:35who's the guy behind Sketch, one of the guys behind Sketch,
0:32:38at Release Notes.
0:32:39And he had a real great talk at Release Notes about how he runs his business
0:32:43and stuff like that. It was absolutely fantastic.
0:32:46And he spoke very briefly about the Mac App Store
0:32:49and some of the challenges of it.
0:32:51And when I saw this post come out,
0:32:54I was surprised that they were actually still
0:32:57on the Mac App Store.
0:32:59- Yeah, after seeing Peter's talk at release notes,
0:33:04it was very clear to me that this is where they were going.
0:33:08And you're right, I had that same moment, which is wow, wow.
0:33:11So they were on the Mac App Store, interesting.
0:33:13'Cause he gave all sorts of reasons why he didn't wanna be,
0:33:16wanna do like an iPad version of Sketch
0:33:20and what all the problems were with the App Store.
0:33:22So clearly this was his thought process that was leading to this.
0:33:26It just, you know, it just, the announcement wasn't in the presentation.
0:33:29I was also very surprised, um, to, to, to find out that they were Mac app store
0:33:35only previously, which is really, um, interesting for a tool like this, like,
0:33:41it's a big professional tool.
0:33:43Um, and they've obviously spotted that this is a problem in their business.
0:33:46Somebody, you know, like a company that's not them have too much control.
0:33:49Right.
0:33:50So they've decided that they want out.
0:33:52So, I mean, one of the things that's really interesting about this to me is the importance
0:34:06that Apple have put on Sketch in the side of this happening.
0:34:12Like not only are they an ADA winner, when the Apple Watch stuff came out and the designs,
0:34:18the guidelines and came out for it.
0:34:20They included assets for Photoshop and for Sketch, right?
0:34:23- Yeah.
0:34:24- And that shows me that I would assume, looking at that,
0:34:29that the guys and girls over at Sketch
0:34:32have the ear of Apple.
0:34:34- Mm-hmm.
0:34:36- At least-- - Or at least
0:34:36some part of Apple.
0:34:37- At least some part of Apple.
0:34:39But high up enough, I would assume,
0:34:42that they could let all of these thoughts
0:34:44be known in advance.
0:34:47could have a conversation with someone because I'm sure they've had some things that were
0:34:51frustrating to them that they have let out, right? That would be my assumption in just looking at
0:35:00this as a thing. And this has still happened, which really does suggest to me that the majority
0:35:09of things that they are looking for are not around the corner. Right. Yeah, I think
0:35:17I think so. I'll put a link in the show notes. I put it into our notes about Michael Tsai
0:35:23did a sort of a roundup with links to a lot of different pieces. John Gruber mentioned
0:35:31in his piece, he used the phrase, "The Mac App Store is rotting," which I have to say,
0:35:40you're right.
0:35:41It's a real good tone of phrase for it. It really is a good tone of phrase.
0:35:45Because it feels like nothing has happened and they're not paying attention and they're
0:35:51not listening and nobody seems to care.
0:35:54And it's like why should anybody else care if Apple doesn't seem to care about the Mac
0:35:57App Store?
0:35:58For maybe for anything but like games maybe?
0:36:02And OS updates.
0:36:04Yeah because bare bones, Rich Siegel spoke at Singleton last October and talked about
0:36:08why they were pulling BB out of the store.
0:36:11doesn't seem like there's anything, I mean the lack of attention, Michael Tsai says that
0:36:17one of his El Capitan bug fix updates has been in review for 59 days. I've heard from
0:36:23a lot of other developers who've said that they put in these updates, and I mean even
0:36:27iOS App Store updates often have long wait times, but the Mac App Store it feels sometimes
0:36:33like there's just nobody there, literally like nobody minding the store. You know, so
0:36:39many people have dropped in on this.
0:36:41Manton Reese wrote a piece about it that was short, but pretty good, and makes a point
0:36:49that I've felt for a long time, which is what Manton says is, "All this time, Apple could
0:36:53have been iterating on the Mac App Store, improving sandboxing entitlements, improving
0:36:57review times, customer interaction, yet they have not." And that is the rotting that John
0:37:01Gruber is referring to. It's sort of like, I kind of feel like Apple thought that, why
0:37:07not bring this to the Mac, it would be just as successful as iOS, and whether that was
0:37:14faulty because the Mac's not as big a platform and Mac apps are different or more complicated
0:37:20or something, or whether it's them not having any follow-up or a little bit of both. I think
0:37:26it's more of the latter, or more of the former, but a little bit of the latter too, that it
0:37:31hasn't helped that Apple has not really—the people who did jump into the Mac App Store
0:37:35have seen that Apple's not really paying very close attention to it. So it's a, I mean,
0:37:40the funny thing here is the solution is just don't use the Mac App Store. And because unlike
0:37:45iOS, the Mac App Store, you can just leave it and you can still sell apps. And that seems
0:37:52to be what's happening at this point is, it makes me wonder if Apple's basically thinking
0:37:57to itself, look, this is all it's ever going to be. And if you don't want to follow the
0:38:02rules just leave. If we're okay with that, just go. Because how else to explain that
0:38:09they're not... Either that or they feel like they can't make changes to it that wouldn't
0:38:13impact the iOS app store, and that's the important one. So if they're going to make a policy,
0:38:18they want to make it universal, and they're making the right decisions maybe for the iOS
0:38:22app store, so the Mac app store gets to deal with it. I don't know. It's not good. It's
0:38:27not good.
0:38:28- Yeah, so as a Mac user, right,
0:38:33you are a primarily a Mac user,
0:38:36that is the platform that you are most attracted to.
0:38:39How often do you use the Mac App Store?
0:38:41- Not that often.
0:38:47I do use it, sometimes I use it where it's,
0:38:51I'm looking for an app that does something very specific,
0:38:58a little utility and I'll think to myself, well why don't I just go on the Mac App Store
0:39:03and search for a stopwatch? What stopwatch does the Mac App Store have?
0:39:07Because you just figured that's a real easy place to find this stuff because Googling
0:39:11could be a nightmare. Yeah, it's a small utility, it's probably
0:39:14in the Mac App Store, I don't see why it wouldn't be in the Mac App Store, let's just search.
0:39:17Oh there are five of them. One of them's free, let's download that. Oh it's terrible. This
0:39:21one's $2, it looks pretty good, I'll buy that, $2 is fine, done. Okay yes, I'm going to use
0:39:25the stopwatch now, stuff like that.
0:39:28And there's some stuff that has to be in the Mac App Store
0:39:31for various reasons, like photos extensions
0:39:36have to be in the Mac App Store, but mostly not.
0:39:41If somebody recommends something
0:39:45and it's only in the Mac App Store,
0:39:46I go to their website and they say,
0:39:47buy it in the Mac App Store, then I'll do that.
0:39:49But the App Store app, my most common app
0:39:54tab is updates. Right? It's updates. I leave it in updates all the time. Not featured,
0:40:02not charts, not categories. Sometimes purchased if I want to go back and look and see, "Did
0:40:06I buy that?" But that's it. It's just not, yeah.
0:40:10I like the idea of a lot of the app store, right? Because, for example, I like that you
0:40:20just go back in when you get a new Mac and everything's there.
0:40:24Oh I agree.
0:40:25As opposed to having to search through like did I was I smart enough to save this license
0:40:30key and 1 password or do I have to look through email for it right like and all that kind
0:40:35of stuff and then having to just go to all the different websites and remember what you
0:40:38want to download rather than just going to one lovely list and just clicking all those
0:40:42things.
0:40:44I like that you know one purchase gets you multiple licenses across multiple machines.
0:40:48It's just nice to have that sort of stuff which makes it easy, right?
0:40:51Then having to think about like, will I need to buy a multi-user license for this piece
0:40:56of software?
0:40:57Hmm, I'm not sure.
0:40:58Could I, you know, like I just find all of that frustrating.
0:41:03And also not having to enter in my card information into a bunch of different websites and systems
0:41:08that I don't know or I don't really know who's managing them.
0:41:13Having it all in Apple and iTunes in my iTunes account, it's just nice and like I just like
0:41:17having it all there is easy to deal with.
0:41:22But then on the other side, when I'm buying things as a business, it makes it really difficult
0:41:26because I can't use my business card or my iTunes account and I don't want to have multiple
0:41:30iTunes accounts.
0:41:31So there's other little bits of that on the flip side.
0:41:34But all of this is moot as long as Apple continues to not do anything with the App Store.
0:41:42It seems like nothing's happening.
0:41:43Nothing has happened.
0:41:44basically untouched since it was introduced and I'm wondering like if you
0:41:50think back to iOS 8 right WWDC for iOS 8 there was a ton of stuff that was like
0:41:58oh you're just you know you're doing all these amazing things and developers are
0:42:01so happy you've done all these incredible things for iOS and I wonder
0:42:06like is there a potential that they may do this stuff for the Mac App Store like
0:42:12Like, could they introduce something like trials or changes to app review or sandboxing
0:42:19stuff?
0:42:20Could they say, "Oh, we've been listening to you and done all of this," and then they
0:42:23get like rounds of applause?
0:42:25>> They could.
0:42:26>> Do you think they will, though?
0:42:28>> The question is, is it worth the amount of energy they're putting out for OS X?
0:42:33Is it worth it for them in terms of what they think that the platform will benefit?
0:42:39And at some point you have to ask yourself, like, why even have Apple involved? You've
0:42:45detailed some of the reasons why there's a user convenience there, but I can see it from
0:42:49Apple's perspective. Like, why would we... People who want to sell outside the App Store
0:42:52can already do it, so why should we even worry about it? Why should we even prioritize that?
0:42:56Whereas iOS is where we make our money on the App Store. I think one of the problems
0:42:59here is that it's using the same infrastructure. So they don't have Mac App Store engineers,
0:43:03as far as I can tell. They have App Store engineers. And they may have some people who
0:43:07who are doing things about like app submissions
0:43:09on the Mac and all that, but it seems to be the same,
0:43:12exact same infrastructure for all of this stuff.
0:43:15So that's a challenge, right?
0:43:16Do you prioritize Mac App Store development
0:43:18over iOS App Store development?
0:43:20I wouldn't.
0:43:21You know, do you have the discipline to say
0:43:23certain amount of the stuff that we do
0:43:25is going to be on the Mac
0:43:26'cause it's important for the Mac as a platform
0:43:28that we have this here?
0:43:30And if you really take out a bunch of these things
0:43:33on the Mac App Store, it would make it better,
0:43:37but is Apple gonna accept that?
0:43:39Because yeah, I could see a WWDC announcement
0:43:41where they say, look,
0:43:42let's tell you about the next version of macOS.
0:43:44And it is called macOS,
0:43:45just like iOS and tvOS and watchOS, it's macOS.
0:43:49Version 11, here it is.
0:43:51New Mac App Store, here's how it works.
0:43:53You have trials, you have, you know,
0:43:56you can do trials, you can do upgrade pricing.
0:43:58There are no sandbox limitations.
0:44:00App review is gone.
0:44:02All we're going to ask is that you submit a signed binary
0:44:06so that if your app turns into malware, we can turn it off.
0:44:11But otherwise, and we're gonna take 30%
0:44:13because we're sitting in the middle.
0:44:15Otherwise, just go to town, knock yourselves out.
0:44:18Okay, would they do that?
0:44:21Hard to see, maybe, but they're giving up a lot of control.
0:44:25Maybe they'll do a little bit less than that.
0:44:27And then would people do it?
0:44:28At that point, I guess you have the advantage
0:44:31of being in the storefront,
0:44:33but I don't think we've seen a lot of evidence
0:44:36that the storefront drives massive sales of Mac apps.
0:44:39And maybe that's the story of the Mac App Store,
0:44:41ultimately, is the Mac App Store is for the kinds of things
0:44:45that people who only shop in the Mac App Store would buy.
0:44:48Maybe that's the story,
0:44:50that if you are somebody who is a super novice user,
0:44:55and all you want is to find a calculator,
0:44:57or a calendar, or a stopwatch,
0:45:01that you will go there and search and you'll find it,
0:45:03or you're just looking for games or for your kid, whatever,
0:45:07then it's fine for that
0:45:08because then these limitations don't matter.
0:45:10And that anything else that Mac developers,
0:45:13any Mac developers got really excited about,
0:45:15like, "Oh, I can put my backup utility in there.
0:45:17Oh, no, I can't."
0:45:18It's like Mac App Store is just not for that stuff.
0:45:21It's not for anything with any complexity at all.
0:45:23That certainly seems to be where we are, right?
0:45:25That seems to be the solution to this.
0:45:27And maybe that's okay.
0:45:29Maybe that's just how it has to be,
0:45:31that the App Store that we thought would be this thing
0:45:34that would bring iOS level excitement
0:45:37to app sales on the Mac is just not that.
0:45:40It like something like, what is it, Launchpad?
0:45:45That feature where all the giant apps
0:45:47are on a screen on your Mac.
0:45:49Maybe it's this relic of a time
0:45:51when the people in charge of macOS
0:45:54thought that it just needed to be iOS in all ways.
0:45:57It needed to have a simple launcher,
0:45:59It needed to have a simple app store.
0:46:01And that would be my vote.
0:46:05My vote would be that all of these features came
0:46:08from a time when Apple thought the Mac was gonna be more
0:46:10and more and more like iOS
0:46:11and that that was the right direction for the Mac.
0:46:13And I'm not sure they feel that way anymore.
0:46:15And I think maybe it shows.
0:46:17And 'cause like launch pad.
0:46:19That is just a waste.
0:46:21It was a waste.
0:46:23My apologies to somebody out there who uses launch pad.
0:46:25Maybe there's somebody out there who uses launch pad.
0:46:27but to me, it seems like a waste of time.
0:46:29Who's it for?
0:46:30Is anybody really using it?
0:46:33It's a waste, but it sort of looks like an iPad home screen.
0:46:36So it's got that going for it.
0:46:38And Mac App Store, maybe it's the same thing.
0:46:40Maybe Apple regrets the whole thing.
0:46:42Maybe they're like Dropbox buying mailbox, like oops.
0:46:45But they put their whole software update infrastructure
0:46:48into it now.
0:46:49So what you gonna do?
0:46:51- When you said what you're gonna do, just for some reason,
0:46:54the word Ghostbusters popped into my head.
0:46:57how it works. And I don't know, that's not how that works, but that's all I got. That's
0:47:01right, then maybe Apple should call the Ghostbusters if the only thing left... It feels like it
0:47:06though, right? Like there's just old stuff, abandoned things. Tumbleweed busters! Yeah,
0:47:12yeah. No, that's my, I like that theory, I'm gonna go with that. That this is a relic of
0:47:17an earlier time when, and we all remember it, when it seemed like the Mac was getting
0:47:23pushed closer and closer in so many ways to iOS. And that stopped roughly when Scott Forstall
0:47:31got fired. And they've made, you know, then they made statements that, "No, the Mac needs
0:47:36to be its own thing. That's the strategy." But we got the Mac App Store and Launchpad
0:47:43out of it.
0:47:45I think that there isn't going to be a big announcement at WWDC in all honesty, because
0:47:52Can you imagine that they would put trials or change sandbox limitations or upgrade pricing
0:47:57or app review changes on iOS?
0:48:00No way.
0:48:01And they're not going to do it on the Mac, right?
0:48:03If they're not going to, you know, they're not going to do it on iOS, they're not going
0:48:05to do it on the Mac, they're not going to mix those two things together because if they
0:48:09do it on one, they'll have to do it on the other.
0:48:12So this is the solution, right?
0:48:13They're also not going to shut down the Mac App Store.
0:48:15It seems unlikely because they have their whole infrastructure in there.
0:48:18It seems like they're not going to shut down the Mac App Store.
0:48:20So what'll happen is it'll just go like this.
0:48:22And that's what it will end up being a thing
0:48:23for super simple apps and Apple stuff.
0:48:26And that's it.
0:48:27I think that's the most likely solution.
0:48:29I kind of like them to just shut it down, but hey,
0:48:31if it works for some apps and it works for some people
0:48:34and it's working for Apple,
0:48:35then just you can just keep it around,
0:48:38but let's all stop pretending that anybody's gonna use it
0:48:41for anything beyond the most basic software.
0:48:44- Yep, I agree.
0:48:46- So the continued rotting of the Mac app store
0:48:49seems to be the most likely scenario here I gotta say.
0:48:53This week's episode is also brought to you by audible.com.
0:48:57Audible includes more than 180,000 audio programs from the leading audiobook publishers, broadcasters,
0:49:05entertainers, general publishers and more.
0:49:08And audible is offering a 30 day free trial membership to listeners of Upgrade.
0:49:12Just go to audible.com/upgrade to take a look at their fantastic selection of audio programs.
0:49:18They also have an app that you can grab if you want to listen on the go.
0:49:21I have the Audible app on my iPhone and I have for many years.
0:49:25I have a bunch of audio books in there and I wanted to recommend one that I love.
0:49:30And this is an audio book that I've probably listened to like three or four
0:49:34times and it's called The Second Coming of Steve Jobs.
0:49:37Um, it's written by Alan Deutschman and it's narrated by a guy called Charles
0:49:41Stransky, who does a fantastic job.
0:49:43This is my favorite Steve Jobs book.
0:49:45Um, it was released in, uh, 2000 in the year 2000.
0:49:51So the story that it tells is the one that a lot of books skip over. It talks
0:49:58primarily about Steve's kind of early days and the Mac and it talks about him
0:50:04being ousted and it talks about Next and Pixar in a lot of detail. Then he returns
0:50:10to Apple and the story ends and all of the really incredible things, the iPhone,
0:50:15the iPad, none of that is in this book because it wasn't done when the book was
0:50:20written. It's just under eight hours down a bridge version and I love it. It talks
0:50:26so much about Pixar. There's just great stories about like Toy Story and things
0:50:31like that in here and it really goes into a lot of detail in those because
0:50:34that's all the book has to talk about and I really like it. Have you ever read
0:50:38this book? I haven't. I really recommend this one. I came across this not too long
0:50:46after it came out I think really it was in the early 2000s and I listened to a
0:50:50bunch of Steve Jobs books that were available at the time and this one was
0:50:54by far and away my favorite as I say I've listened to it a few times and I
0:50:57really really recommend it because it kind of focuses on the man and in a
0:51:01slightly different way especially if you've if you've read the the Isaacson
0:51:05book and the the newer one what was that called the Schrenger book
0:51:11Oh. Becoming Steve Jobs? Was that it? Yeah, Becoming
0:51:15Steve Jobs. There it is. I've lost completely. There's so many Steve
0:51:21Jobs book books now. It's like one formed into one giant tome of Steve Jobs.
0:51:27And looking on Audible right now, like if you do want Steve Jobs books, they have them
0:51:31all, right? Like they're all here. Like there is the Becoming Steve Jobs book that is on
0:51:35there as well. I actually listened to that as an audiobook as well. And the audiobook
0:51:39is very good, the Becoming Steve Jobs book, but I like The Second Coming of Steve Jobs,
0:51:44so I recommend that. And you had a book you want to recommend as well, Jason?
0:51:47Yeah, I've been... There are a lot of books, because I read a lot of books, a lot of books
0:51:51that I could recommend here, but I'm going to, for timely reasons, recommend... I mentioned
0:51:56the TV series The Expanse, which is coming from the Sci-Fi next week, and I highly recommend
0:52:04that book series. It is probably the best book series that I've read in the last five
0:52:08years. There are five books that, unlike your George R. R. Martins who, you know, reappear
0:52:14with a new book every four or five years, these guys, super disciplined, it's two guys
0:52:18who write it under a pen name, super disciplined, they've got a new novel every June, I think,
0:52:24so there's a new one every year. That also means that there are five to choose from now
0:52:28and read, and the first one is what the first season at least, if not more, of the expanse
0:52:35is going to be based on. It's called Leviathan Wakes by James S.A. Corey, and it is available
0:52:41on Abridged on Audible, and it is a huge amount of fun. It's set in the future in the solar
0:52:47system and there are people on Earth and Mars and people in the asteroid belt and the outer
0:52:51planets and it is an interesting combination of sort of sci-fi adventure with a kind of
0:52:57noir detective story and some surprising almost horror-esque elements that come on later in
0:53:05the story that when they come in it is quite a fun change in tone of the plot. So there's
0:53:13a lot of good stuff in there. It's just it's great and the other books are also great.
0:53:16So highly recommended and if you are thinking of watching that show I would say try the
0:53:22audio book. It's a great book Leviathan Wakes.
0:53:24So you these are just some suggestions you can select any book any audio books at all
0:53:30when you start your trial but these are just some suggestions that me and Jason have enjoyed.
0:53:34So go to audible.com/upgrade to get started with your 30 day free trial and check out
0:53:40some books from audible.
0:53:41Thank you so much to audible.com for their support of this show and Relay FM.
0:53:47So Jason we're going to go back to my favorite topic right now which is the iPad Pro.
0:53:54Because I read a little post that you wrote in your Macworld column and I assume this
0:53:59is you coming to the end of your time with your review unit.
0:54:01I'm going to assume and you wrote a post on Macworld
0:54:05of a wishlist.
0:54:06So would I be right in thinking that you kind of coming
0:54:08to the end of your time with the unit you have?
0:54:11- Yeah, I need to check when I was supposed to send it back.
0:54:14Probably I was supposed to send it back.
0:54:16So I'm gonna have to do that.
0:54:19I'm gonna have to pack it up and mail it back to Apple.
0:54:21But I'm getting very close to deciding
0:54:25I'm gonna buy an iPad Pro.
0:54:26I really do like it.
0:54:29- Look at that, I didn't expect that.
0:54:31I feel like when we first spoke about this a few weeks ago,
0:54:35that that wasn't necessarily your take on this.
0:54:39- So you're right.
0:54:40- I mean, we can get to your wishlist in a moment,
0:54:42but now this revelation, this bomb has been dropped.
0:54:46So I want you to tell me what's happened.
0:54:49Bigger is better is my assumption.
0:54:51- I'm just, Myke was right.
0:54:53You know, everything I've said still goes.
0:54:58I think it's more awkward in some situations
0:55:01and spectacularly great in others.
0:55:02And I think after using it for three plus weeks
0:55:05that I've decided I would rather it be awkward
0:55:08in those situations and have me manage it
0:55:10in order to get the greatness of it in the other situations
0:55:14rather than go back to the smaller.
0:55:16It is true, the iPad Air feels like an iPad mini now.
0:55:19It is so, it feels so small compared to the Pro.
0:55:23So I'm going to be, if I buy one of these,
0:55:28I'm gonna be one of those people
0:55:29who doesn't buy either the pencil or the smart keyboard
0:55:33'cause I have no desire to have either of those products.
0:55:38I have no need for the one and no desire for the other.
0:55:40I would rather use an external,
0:55:42a Bluetooth keyboard that's better than that.
0:55:46I don't see, I'm not one of those people
0:55:47who needs to carry my keyboard around with me all the time.
0:55:50I can throw a keyboard in a bag when I'm traveling
0:55:53and pull the keyboard out when I want to type something.
0:55:56That works for me, I don't need more than that.
0:55:58But yeah, I mean, that's the bottom line
0:56:00is I feel like it is worth it to have that big screen
0:56:04and I can deal with the fact that it's awkward
0:56:10in some places.
0:56:10That said, I did do some thumb typing on the iPad Air 2
0:56:14the other day and I thought,
0:56:15oh, I can actually type while I'm holding this thing,
0:56:17which the iPad Pro doesn't do.
0:56:19So there's still a chance that I will not.
0:56:22I think what's gonna happen
0:56:22is I'm gonna send the Apple One back
0:56:24and then I'm gonna see how I feel.
0:56:26And if after a couple of weeks,
0:56:27I realize that I'm really missing it, then I'll buy one.
0:56:30- The thumb typing thing is one of the trade-offs for me.
0:56:34- Yeah. - It's like,
0:56:35I like to be able to do that,
0:56:36but now I just adjust the way that I use this thing
0:56:39and the way that I hold this thing
0:56:40and how I type with this thing.
0:56:42And if I need to be walking or moving
0:56:45or standing up and typing,
0:56:46well, I'm gonna type slowly, holding it,
0:56:48and typing with one finger.
0:56:50I just have to accept that any message I want to send
0:56:53when walking around with my iPad Pro
0:56:55will be shorter and type more slowly.
0:56:58Because I love this thing completely.
0:57:02I love my iPad Pro.
0:57:03It is by far my favorite computing device right now.
0:57:06It's fantastic.
0:57:09I was doing some work over the weekend.
0:57:12But actually it was setting up the membership stuff.
0:57:14So we use Membrful, which is a great platform,
0:57:18and it's the platform you use.
0:57:20We were creating all of the plans in Membrful,
0:57:22and each one creates a URL.
0:57:24we had to drop all of the URLs into our CMS to create the pages.
0:57:31So it was like 20 odd shows with three URLs each.
0:57:36And so I was doing that.
0:57:37And if I would have done that on my Mac, it would have been nice and simple,
0:57:41like copy and paste the text. But I had Safari on one side,
0:57:45I had Chrome on the other, and it was so easy. I had the pencil in my hand.
0:57:50I would just, with my, I would have my thumb on the right side,
0:57:54like press down on URL, copy,
0:57:56then go click with a pencil on the other one,
0:57:57tap in the box, click the paste button.
0:57:59And I was just rattling through that so quickly.
0:58:02And for me, that was faster
0:58:04than I would have done it on the Mac.
0:58:06Like just flat out, it was faster.
0:58:08And I'm sure that you would do it faster on the Mac
0:58:11than I did it on the iPad.
0:58:12But just like the way that I was doing it,
0:58:13I just got into this rhythm.
0:58:15And I'm at the point now, after using this thing,
0:58:18where I really like, and it sounds so,
0:58:21I already hate myself as I'm saying this
0:58:23because of what the phrase actually means.
0:58:25I really like working with my hands in this way.
0:58:29My hands are on the screen.
0:58:32It's kind of what they originally spoke about
0:58:34with the iPad, right?
0:58:35Like you manipulating the web and stuff like that.
0:58:38But it feels way more with this device.
0:58:43And just the pen input stuff,
0:58:45I love using the Apple Pencil as pen input.
0:58:49So I use it so much on the UI of the device.
0:58:52I use it to tap things, I use it to select things.
0:58:55It really works for me in a way that other iPads haven't.
0:59:00And I don't know why that is.
0:59:02Obviously I'm a person that feels very, very comfortable
0:59:05with a pen in my hand.
0:59:08So maybe that helps me feel like it's more natural.
0:59:13I don't know what it is,
0:59:13but I really love using it that way.
0:59:17So I mean, I'm very happy with it.
0:59:20And I'm pleased that you are as well.
0:59:22so much that you're thinking of getting a new one.
0:59:26But this isn't a perfect product, right?
0:59:28So to kind of wrap up and kind of round up your wishes here,
0:59:33you asked for more cases, which I completely agree with.
0:59:38There aren't many cases.
0:59:39And I am also sad that I have a black smart cover
0:59:42and not like a green one.
0:59:44- Yeah, they're in like dark gray and white.
0:59:48- Yeah.
0:59:51- Yeah, so there's the smart covers have no color options
0:59:56to speak of.
0:59:57There are, there need to be more cases in general,
1:00:00which it's gonna just take time for that to happen.
1:00:03I want a keyboard thing like the old Origami
1:00:07where I want a thing where I can put a Bluetooth keyboard
1:00:09and have like a little, I mean, again,
1:00:11the smart cover will sort of do this,
1:00:12but have like a little stand for the iPad Pro
1:00:15that with a Bluetooth keyboard in front of it,
1:00:18because I don't really wanna use the smart keyboard.
1:00:21and I don't need to, so why not?
1:00:23But I don't want it to be a case like the Logitech Create.
1:00:27I want it to be a thing where you can set your iPad in it
1:00:30and use it and then pick up the iPad and walk away.
1:00:32- I actually just today was able to order a smart keyboard.
1:00:37And it's not from Apple,
1:00:40it's from a company here called Currys.
1:00:43It's very much like a Best Buy.
1:00:45And it will be arriving tomorrow.
1:00:47- Oh, that's exciting.
1:00:49- And I just wanna try this.
1:00:51I probably think I will return this.
1:00:53- I think so too.
1:00:55- Yeah, I don't think I'm gonna like it,
1:00:57but I wanna give it a shot because I do want to use
1:01:00a keyboard with it in some instances,
1:01:02and I've been using this Logitech One,
1:01:05and I keep meaning to get my magic keyboard
1:01:07out of the iMac box because I figure I don't use that.
1:01:12It actually might work really well for me to use that here
1:01:14because I always have a cable to charge that keyboard
1:01:20wherever I am.
1:01:22Yeah, I think that's a good idea.
1:01:25Also, if you try it
1:01:27and you like the key feel,
1:01:29then
1:01:31you can return it and when they come out with a UK keyboard you could get that one.
1:01:36Because I think you're not going to want the US keyboard anyway. But I have a US software
1:01:39keyboard layout anyway.
1:01:41Alright. Like it's the UK keys but they're shaped incorrectly. But I'm
1:01:46hoping that they'll fix that too at some point, but maybe, maybe not.
1:01:50Yeah, from my understanding of this though, it seems like they're gonna fix the software
1:01:54stuff but it doesn't seem like they're gonna fix the hardware keyboard, I don't think.
1:01:59No, the hardware keyboard, they said they're gonna do international keyboard layouts, yeah.
1:02:03Oh, good.
1:02:04There will be international smart keyboards down the road, they said.
1:02:08Okay.
1:02:09So we'll see. I mean, again, it's a sort of peculiar rollout, that they only have the
1:02:14one.
1:02:15it's why don't they have any of the accessories in their stores right it's the other thing right right
1:02:19the you know a lot of my complaints i've written other articles about about uh multitasking like
1:02:27i want more apps to do picture in picture there's still a bunch of my apps my video apps that don't
1:02:31that don't do it yeah why is that is it like a drm thing like so you know because so many
1:02:36different services implemented their own video players for like whatever dumb reasons like drm
1:02:42why they didn't want AirPlay or whatever. It's possible, although I would think that you could
1:02:47still do it, but I don't know. I mean, I don't know the technical details. It's just, bottom line,
1:02:53as a user, it frustrates me that I can't put Netflix in a little video box, and I can't put--my
1:02:58cable company has an app that has all the live channels that I've authenticated to be able to see
1:03:04and stuff that's on demand, and it doesn't work with it. But ESPN does, and Hulu does.
1:03:11So go figure. So more picture-in-picture apps.
1:03:15We've talked about it before, the better split view app picker thing,
1:03:19so I can more easily
1:03:23choose which app I want to have in slide over or split view.
1:03:27The stuff that I talked about, about being able to sort of like
1:03:31pair up apps so that instead of
1:03:35having to launch a new app and then changing the app that's in the
1:03:39the split view I could just have a way to set those so that it knows that when
1:03:43I use this app I want this to be in the split view. Just more software
1:03:47development stuff, more keyboard shortcuts, that just sort of system-wide
1:03:54the ability like I said to be able to search for an app and actually select it
1:03:58instead of having to reach up and touch the screen. And then third-party
1:04:01developers are a part of this too. There's still way too many apps that are
1:04:05scaled up for the iPad Pro because they haven't been updated to take advantage
1:04:08of the screen size. They've got the weird keyboard because it's a scaled up iPad Air
1:04:12keyboard that you're seeing. And then also they don't have as good keyboard support as
1:04:18they should and multitasking support as they should. So, you know, it's little stuff but
1:04:24it's important stuff.
1:04:25So, you know, to echo some of those things in regards to cases, I want a case that holds
1:04:30the pencil neatly and I've seen a few sleeves that hold it but that doesn't work for me.
1:04:38I have actually purchased a pen loop and have stuck that pen loop onto my iPad.
1:04:47Like with a sticker?
1:04:50It is a sticker.
1:04:52Like it is a it's got a sticky back.
1:04:54I mean I'm putting stickers on it anyway right?
1:04:57Alright on my iPad so like I don't really care so much.
1:05:01I'm not 100% convinced in it yet because it definitely works and it works pretty well
1:05:08But there are a couple of drawbacks, like for example, when I now put the smart cover
1:05:16around on the back, the magnets don't fit together as strongly because there is something
1:05:22obstructing the case from touching the back of the iPad so easily.
1:05:28But it holds it mostly but not completely.
1:05:30And also the stickiness is not holding on one edge.
1:05:34The rest of it is so incredibly glued down that I think it might be okay
1:05:38but what it is doing which I love is now my
1:05:41Pencil is affixed to my iPad at all times
1:05:45So like it's really easy for me to just grab it and store it somewhere. That's nice
1:05:50So I got one of those and I've stuck it on it's by a company called Leuchtturm 1917
1:05:56Which is a pen and paper manufacturer that I'm familiar with
1:06:02And it's just a little pen loop and I bought a couple of them and I've stuck it on the back of my iPad
1:06:08So when I was at twit yesterday
1:06:10Leo was complaining about there's no place to stick the pencil on the iPad Pro because I brought the iPad Pro with me instead of
1:06:16a laptop
1:06:17sidebar
1:06:19There are no
1:06:21IRC clients for iOS that support multitasking which is such a shame. I realize the
1:06:27IRC is not a super popular format for most, but boy, all the chat rooms for all the podcasts
1:06:33that I'm on use it. So I would like that, that would have helped. But anyway, he was
1:06:37saying, "Oh, you know, I've got the pen here for the Surface Book," because he has a Surface
1:06:41Book, and it just, you know, you just lay it on the side and it attaches magnetically,
1:06:46and see, this is so much better. And then over the course of showing me this and right
1:06:51after, he must have knocked that pen off by touching it and having it fall off, like,
1:06:57times. Oh yeah, a magnet on the side is not storage, it is placement. Yeah, yeah, and
1:07:02I had that moment where I thought, I thought, this is why Apple didn't do that. Yeah. It's
1:07:07because your pencil's just gonna keep on getting knocked off and falling on the ground and
1:07:10breaking. And it's not, it's not, don't do that. No. So they didn't. Anybody that thinks
1:07:15that that is storage, like I was actually watching Twit and saw him do that and was
1:07:19like, like say, oh, it fixes to the side with a magnet, like, no it doesn't. Like, it does,
1:07:24It stays there but you put that in and out of any bag or move it around that thing is
1:07:29just flying off all over the place.
1:07:31This is what I want a case that it goes in that I slide it into.
1:07:35I've seen these like sleeves by a couple of different companies and I don't want a sleeve.
1:07:40I'll put links in the show notes to the sleeves that I've seen as well in case people ask
1:07:44for them.
1:07:45I want a case that is like a smart cover that has a pen loop.
1:07:49I want it to have the magnets, I want it to be a stand, I want all of that.
1:07:54And I haven't seen any of that as of yet so I'm looking forward to seeing some of that
1:07:58sort of stuff because I'm confident that there will be some people that make these things.
1:08:05The market's not going to be massive massive for them but for a lot of these types of companies
1:08:09big enough.
1:08:11So I've been looking on Amazon and there's some stuff that exists but it's not things
1:08:17that I'm interested in.
1:08:18Like I've seen a couple of products on Amazon like if you just search for iPad Pro case
1:08:21Pencil on Amazon you'll see like these leather cases that have all of the stuff that I'm asking for
1:08:26But I just don't like the design of them
1:08:28Whilst I do love the designs of both of these sleeves
1:08:33I'm not I don't think I want a sleeve
1:08:36I want to I want a case or you know a smart cover type thing to put this in I
1:08:44Also have real-time follow-up
1:08:47Our good friend Doug Beal in the chat room said that the colloquy, which I was using
1:08:53yesterday actually does support split screen, and it does.
1:08:56I have it working right here.
1:08:57So how did you miss that?
1:08:59Well, you know why I missed it?
1:09:01It's because I was trying to run it in picture-in-picture, and I didn't see it when I scrolled through
1:09:05the low-density list of things that were available, or not picture-in-picture, in slide-over.
1:09:11I didn't see it in the list there, because that list is not organized in any reasonable
1:09:14way.
1:09:15But yeah, there it is.
1:09:16Well, Colloquy, thumbs up.
1:09:21Man, their website, the Colloquy website, is showing iOS 6 screenshots.
1:09:27Yeah. I'm assuming it doesn't look like that anymore.
1:09:30It doesn't look great, but it works. But it's not got an iOS 6 keyboard.
1:09:36Well, probably not. No, I mean that's what it's showing on their website.
1:09:41I hope that's not the case. Yeah, so that's what, you know, that's my main thing.
1:09:45And one other thing I'd like to see in the future,
1:09:48I wanna be able to do more with that home screen.
1:09:51- Oh yeah.
1:09:52- Like I don't think I want widgets.
1:09:55I'm not sure.
1:09:56Maybe if they can be done right.
1:10:00But like I saw somebody mock up a view of like,
1:10:04somewhere on Twitter, I saw this within the last week or so.
1:10:07I saw people mock up a kind of iOS home screen
1:10:13with the notification center widgets on the home screen and it looked really
1:10:17unattractive but I feel like I just want there to be more on that space because
1:10:22it's kind of unused space and I think they could do
1:10:26more there and I do genuinely believe in my heart of hearts
1:10:31that iOS 10 will bring a new look to the home screen in general.
1:10:37I agree. It feels like if you're ever gonna do it
1:10:4110's the one to do it.
1:10:43- I suppose.
1:10:44I figured they might do it.
1:10:46Well, I figured they might do it for nine,
1:10:47but as I've talked about before,
1:10:50they had so much they had to do,
1:10:54especially for productivity features,
1:10:55that I can see why they maybe prioritized split view,
1:10:58picture in picture, keyboard stuff,
1:11:01and just said, look, we'll get to the home screen next time.
1:11:05- I figured they were gonna do it every time
1:11:06for the last few releases, right?
1:11:08Like even on iPhone. - Yeah, me too.
1:11:09- But now I'm thinking like,
1:11:11if I'm Apple and like it comes to iOS 8 and they're like, oh,
1:11:15let's plan out our roadmap. And they're like, oh,
1:11:16we want to do this new thing to the home screen. I, if I was in that scenario,
1:11:21I'd be like, let's wait until 10.
1:11:22Like that is a number 10 massive feature,
1:11:26re-changing everything you know, like if you're going to do it, do it now.
1:11:30So I hope they are going to do it now. So I don't look like a fool.
1:11:33Maybe this can be another one of those Myke was right scenarios,
1:11:35which is a cute holding onto this one until June. Maybe, maybe.
1:11:40So that's my feeling, I mean I love the iPad Pro, I'm very happy to hear that you will be buying one.
1:11:44Probably.
1:11:46The fact that you're speaking about it the way that you are, whether you know it or not,
1:11:50yet you're going to be getting one. I'm very confident about that fact.
1:11:53Should we take our final break and do some Ask Upgrade?
1:11:55That's a good idea.
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1:14:24>> It's upgrade time.
1:14:27>> Lasers, lasers.
1:14:28I'm just, I'm going to just say the word lasers now, not even make the sound.
1:14:31>> Look at that.
1:14:32Upgrading Diane would like to know, Jason, you mentioned last week that you use Outlook
1:14:37for iOS.
1:14:38Are there any reasons you don't use Outlook on your Mac?
1:14:43>> Hi to Diane.
1:14:44The Outlook for iOS is totally different.
1:14:47Outlook for Mac is based on the-- >> Outlook for Mac.
1:14:51It was based on the Entourage code base.
1:14:54I mean, it feels honestly, it's gotten better,
1:14:57but it is this big app.
1:14:59It feels really heavy.
1:15:01It's hard for me to explain it.
1:15:02It feels kind of old because I think there's a lot of stuff
1:15:05that has been in there since the Entourage days.
1:15:08It's doing everything that Microsoft feels it must do
1:15:13to provide desktop support for its monolithic services
1:15:17and whatever.
1:15:18And Outlook for iOS is like a totally new take on it.
1:15:21And it's a, so yeah, I have no desire
1:15:24to use Outlook on the Mac.
1:15:25I've looked at it, I don't like it, I don't wanna use it.
1:15:28But on iOS, it's pretty good.
1:15:32So for now I'm using it there.
1:15:33But it's just, they're very different.
1:15:35They have the same name, but they're totally different.
1:15:37- 'Cause in case you don't, in case anyone doesn't know,
1:15:39Microsoft bought an app called a company on iOS,
1:15:43rebranded it, have done actually some of their own work
1:15:45to make the app better.
1:15:46but the code base is nowhere near the same.
1:15:49They were different things originally.
1:15:51And I hope that they are working on building
1:15:53a different Mac app,
1:15:55but I'm not seeing any signs of that occurring.
1:15:58- Yeah.
1:15:59- Gerard wrote in and said that he's beginning to love
1:16:02the UpThere home beta and says it syncs really fast.
1:16:06Any thoughts on its future?
1:16:08Jason, could you explain to people what this is
1:16:09in case they haven't seen it before?
1:16:11- UpThere is a startup from a whole bunch of people
1:16:16who used to work at Apple, including Bertrand Cerlet,
1:16:18who was in charge of Apple software development
1:16:21for many years, OS development.
1:16:22He's the guy who would come on in the first session
1:16:25at WWDC after the keynote with his French accent
1:16:28and introduce what the details of the new features
1:16:30of OS X and iOS were.
1:16:32A whole bunch of other people there,
1:16:36including James Dempsey, if you have heard of James Dempsey
1:16:39and the Breakpoints, the nerd rock band.
1:16:43Chris Burton, who was at Apple for a long time,
1:16:46a bunch of people.
1:16:47And they are at this startup called UpThere,
1:16:49which is a cloud, they call it the cloud computer,
1:16:53but they've got two apps that they released.
1:16:56And one of them is basically storage.
1:16:58And one of them is basically photo management.
1:17:01And it's all cloud syncing and they're in beta now.
1:17:04And you can sign up at, what is it?
1:17:06Upthere.com.
1:17:08And I don't have any opinion about it though, Gerard.
1:17:12I think it's an interesting thing from interesting people. Who knows? Who knows? It's a startup.
1:17:19It's new. You know, I am hesitant to trust any startup for the long haul. Are they going
1:17:23to get bought? Are they going to stay independent? Are they going to make it? Are they going
1:17:28to fail? I have no idea. And to be honest, I've downloaded the stuff, but I haven't even
1:17:32had a chance to use it yet. So I want to try it for myself and see. I think I used it maybe
1:17:36briefly and then I haven't gone back to it. So I need to look into it. But it's a startup.
1:17:42know, don't put all your stuff there and count on it lasting for 20 years because you never
1:17:46know. But a lot of smart people at that company, a lot of smart ex-Apple people there. Maybe
1:17:52their plan is to build good cloud services and then, you know, have Apple come to them
1:17:58and buy them out because Apple needs good cloud services people. Maybe that's the plan.
1:18:02It's like Next all over again. Yeah. Rajeev would like to know, "Will the iPads eventually
1:18:08get low power mode like iPhones?" What do you think, Jason? Do you think that's something
1:18:11that Apple would do? I feel like maybe not because just the usage of an iPad and an iPhone
1:18:19is different. But I could see the value in getting to 20% or 10% battery and having it
1:18:24say, "Hey, can I slow this down a little bit in order to keep you going?" I think the idea
1:18:31there is that your iPad is less likely to be far away from a power outlet, but it totally
1:18:35happens if you let it run down that way. When I was at Twit yesterday, I was at 1% when
1:18:40the show ended. So I would have probably gone along with that. There may be some issues
1:18:46there in terms of multitasking and things like that. Like does it turn off multitasking?
1:18:50On the iPhone it doesn't have to worry about that stuff, but on the iPad it would have
1:18:53to. I don't know. I think since that feature exists in iOS, I think it might very well
1:18:59come to iPad eventually, but I'm not sure Apple is falling over themselves, obviously,
1:19:04because it's not in there now to add that feature. But I could see how it would have
1:19:07some use ultimately. But yeah, I don't know. I'm going to say yes eventually on an infinite
1:19:14time scale.
1:19:15>> It's just the greatest get out.
1:19:17>> Yeah.
1:19:18>> It really is fantastic.
1:19:20>> Well, he did say eventually. I mean, that gives me latitude.
1:19:25>> With the next question comes from Ivan. Do you think the iPad Pro will ever get Xcode
1:19:30or will Xcode ever come to the App Store?
1:19:34- I, again, if we say ever,
1:19:37yes, I think something that will let you build apps
1:19:42will come to the iPad, iPad, iPad Pro, whatever.
1:19:46I do think that will happen.
1:19:47It may be limited in scope, especially at first.
1:19:51My guess is it won't have all the things
1:19:54that we know of in Xcode.
1:19:55Even if they call it Xcode, I think it'll be different.
1:19:57But yeah, I think at some point in the next year or two,
1:20:01Apple will build something that is enough that you could develop software for the iPad
1:20:09on the iPad. I do think that will happen. I mean, I'm just—I have no information here,
1:20:15but I think—I feel like we're at the point where it will happen. The existence of the
1:20:18iPad Pro makes me believe it will happen. Maybe it'll only support Swift. You know,
1:20:23I don't know. I mean, maybe it'll only support certain kinds of apps, certain kinds of features
1:20:30at first at least, but yeah, I feel like it's gonna happen.
1:20:34Ben would like to know, "What podcasts do you listen to that aren't part of the great
1:20:38Relay FM network?" And I wanted to extend this and say all the incomparable.
1:20:42Oh, fine. Right. And not letting you sneak in there with
1:20:46your promotion. Although, you know, people should listen to incomparable shows. I wanted
1:20:50to get a few others. So do you want to start? Or I have a small list.
1:20:53Yeah, why don't you give me your list first. All right, so I just selected a few shows
1:20:58either a new or just absolute favorites of mine.
1:21:01One of them is Control, Wart, Delete,
1:21:04which is a new show from The Verge.
1:21:06It's Neil Patel and Wart Mossberg.
1:21:08And I really like this show because it's basically The Verge
1:21:14doing this type of show, which they haven't previously done.
1:21:17They either do stuff that's really heavily produced
1:21:20or they're like big panel shows, but have a different feel to them
1:21:23to the types of shows that we have here.
1:21:25but control-warp-delete is neilight and waltz and they just talk and it feels just like this show feels
1:21:31So I really like it because it's two people that I really respect
1:21:35And enjoy the opinions of in a format that I love so that is a big recommendation
1:21:41I've got to say flophouse and hello internet obviously love those shows will do forever my two favorite podcasts and
1:21:49I also wanted to mention
1:21:52Tomorrow with Joshua Topolsky. I don't listen to every episode
1:21:55I kind of pick and choose based on guests, but every time I do listen to it. I always enjoy it
1:22:01So there are a couple of shows I wanted to mention to my absolute two favorites and two that maybe
1:22:06You're not listening to that. I think you would enjoy
1:22:09Very nice. I listen to a bunch of nerdy TV podcasts
1:22:14Chip Sutter does the two-minute time Lord, which is a very short Doctor Who podcast
1:22:20which I really like. And of course there's Verity and Radio Free Skaro, which are longer
1:22:25panel podcasts that are very good. And I also listened to the Audio Guide to Babylon 5,
1:22:29one of my favorite sci-fi TV series from the 90s. And they're watching every episode from
1:22:32the beginning once every two weeks. It's a lot of fun. And that's Chip and Erica, who
1:22:36I do podcasts with on The Incomparable. The other ones I wanted to mention, yeah, The
1:22:44The Flophouse is still my number one.
1:22:46That's my favorite.
1:22:50My must-play is--ATP is a must-play every week.
1:22:55Beyond that, I would throw out--I've mentioned it before, I think the Pozcast, which is an
1:23:00irregular podcast with Joe Poznanski, which is why it's P-O-S-C-A-S-T, and Myke Schurr,
1:23:06it's a sports writer--it's basically about sports, but it's a sports writer, Joe Poznanski,
1:23:11And Myke Schur is the creator of, or co-creator and co-executive producer of Parks and Recreation
1:23:19and Brooklyn Nine-Nine, and he's an executive producer on Master of None.
1:23:25And he used to do the great sports blog Fire Joe Morgan.
1:23:28And on that show they talk about sports and then they draft arbitrary things, so that's
1:23:31why I love it.
1:23:32They draft things.
1:23:33Drafts are great.
1:23:35And then beyond that, I don't know, there's a bunch of podcasts I've gotten here in Overcast
1:23:39with like one episode of that I've listened to. I'm sure I'm leaving something out, but
1:23:44honestly the two, you know, I will listen to the talk show, but it's, it's, they're
1:23:48so long and I don't have very much podcast listening time that I pick and choose the
1:23:51guests. That's just how I have to do it. And yeah, so ATP and Flophouse are sort of my
1:24:00two not affiliated with either network must-listens every week.
1:24:06I agree with ATP obviously. And I've got Hello Internet which I listen to now that you introduced
1:24:12me to it but again I can't listen to every episode because I just there are just too
1:24:17many podcasts so I pick and choose there. I've got their flag special queued up on my
1:24:24playlist. Right next up we have last question today from Fasten. I'm not good at live photos
1:24:34Is there a place to get other photos to use as my 3D touch wallpaper?
1:24:39I haven't seen this anywhere.
1:24:41Like a place you could download examples of 3D touch wallpapers,
1:24:46but I feel like it should exist.
1:24:49You're right. How would you get them in there? I don't know.
1:24:57Because you can send them to people, right?
1:25:02Yeah. Like I don't know if you know this, but if you send a live photo to somebody without
1:25:09a 3D touch device, they can still view the live photo, they just long press on it.
1:25:13Yeah.
1:25:14Um, but I haven't seen like a way you could download them from anything. But I would like
1:25:22that.
1:25:23Yeah, it's a nice idea.
1:25:24But yeah, I haven't seen it either.
1:25:26Maybe there's some app out there that will take an animated GIF and turn it into a, save
1:25:31it to the camera roll as a live photo or something like that.
1:25:33I don't know if it can go the other way around.
1:25:35I don't know.
1:25:36I don't know. I tell you what though, after a big trip to somewhere like New York, boy
1:25:42do I love live photos.
1:25:43Yeah, I still treasure that live photo I have where the flash went off and you were blinded
1:25:48in Indianapolis. That was pretty funny.
1:25:51I don't know if I have the actual live photo of that.
1:25:53Oh, I should send you that. I'll send you that. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't joking last week
1:25:57when I said that you were you know you were taking headphones from Marco Arment
1:26:03because you did visit them at their house so oh yeah in case anybody's
1:26:07noticed my audio sounds different I spent a few days of Marco and I have now
1:26:12bought new headphones a new headphone amp a new microphone and I have a new
1:26:16boom arm on the way oh Myke this is one of the most common you should have
1:26:24learned your lesson like don't spend too much time with Marco it's a very
1:26:27expensive. Oh no I prepared for it financially. I put a little bit of money away inside.
1:26:34Because I knew this was gonna happen. He's gonna show you things. He's gonna play things
1:26:40through headphones and you'll hear voices from microphones and you'll be forever changed.
1:26:45I'm pretty sure one of the first things that happened when we arrived at their house was
1:26:48he sat me down and put headphones on my head. Of course. I would expect nothing less. So
1:26:54So in case anybody's wondering, I'm using a microphone now called the Neumann KMS 105
1:27:03or something like that it's called.
1:27:05Again, I will put a link to that in the show notes in case anybody is interested.
1:27:10Or I will link to Marco's review, his big podcast review, podcast microphone review,
1:27:17and I'll put a link to the microphone that I'm now using because it's all his fault,
1:27:23really.
1:27:24And that wraps up this week's episode. Again, we'd really appreciate it if you loved this
1:27:29show that you would consider becoming a Relay FM member and choosing Upgrade as your show.
1:27:36Or if you love any show at Relay FM, feel free to support that show. It would mean a
1:27:40lot to the host of any show that you do support. If you want to find us online, you can go
1:27:45to our show notes and get all the stuff we've spoken about today over at relay.fm/upgrades/66.
1:27:51is over at SixColors.com and he is @JSnell on Twitter, JSNELL. I am @IMykeIMYKE. Thanks
1:27:59again to our sponsors this week, the great people over at Audible.com, Casper and Braintree.
1:28:05And thank you most of all for listening. We'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye
1:28:09Jason Snell.
1:28:10Goodbye everybody.
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