64: The Law of the Large


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:07   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode number 64. Today's show is brought to you

00:00:13   by Braintree,

00:00:14   TextExpander, Hover,

00:00:16   and igloo. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Mr. Jason Snow.

00:00:20   Hi Myke, how's it going? I'm very well Mr. Snow, how are you today?

00:00:24   Pretty good. Busy, busy time, busy week.

00:00:26   lots of iPad Pro business and we had a busy show last week and I think we're gonna have

00:00:31   another busy show this week.

00:00:32   Yep, we're gonna look at the movies later on today.

00:00:34   Oh yeah.

00:00:35   Everyone's favorite segment.

00:00:37   But we do have to do some follow-up and one of the most important pieces of follow-up

00:00:41   this week is bringing Serenity Korbla back onto the show. Hi Wren.

00:00:44   Hi.

00:00:45   So we wanted to do some Apple Pencil follow-up because now both me and Wren have pencils.

00:00:51   Because we have them.

00:00:53   The big idea last week was that I was going to rely on you guys to tell me about the Apple

00:00:57   Pencil. And so we set it all up and nobody could get a pencil. And so we sort of looked at me and

00:01:04   I was like, I don't know, but now you both have Apple Pencils. So this is perfect because I can

00:01:10   listen to you who actually care about these things in a way that I will never care. Talk about the

00:01:17   Apple Pencil. So, Wren, you now have acquired your own pencil and you've

00:01:23   You've been doing some drawing and stuff with it.

00:01:25   How are you finding the Apple Pencil

00:01:27   for the type of stuff that you'd like to do digitally

00:01:30   from an artistic perspective?

00:01:31   - Well, I have to prevent myself from squeaking

00:01:36   on the air right now,

00:01:38   'cause that's how I feel about the Apple Pencil.

00:01:40   Honestly, I've been drawing digitally for about 16 years,

00:01:45   which seems insane to me, by the way.

00:01:48   And I started with trackpad drawing

00:01:50   and I progressed to Wacom tablets.

00:01:52   And when the iPad came out, I did a very--

00:01:54   I've used a variety of styluses.

00:01:56   And I think we talked about this last week, where

00:01:58   there's a lot to be desired from digital drawing.

00:02:03   You can't really replicate the feeling of drawing on paper.

00:02:07   It's just not going to happen when you have a glass screen or even

00:02:10   a plastic screen.

00:02:11   So the manufacturers have to focus on other aspects.

00:02:17   They have to focus on the lag and the latency being very small, and they have to make sure

00:02:23   that the pressure just feels right.

00:02:26   And the Apple Pencil has managed to nail both of these things better, as good as Wacom,

00:02:34   or if not very, very close.

00:02:36   Yeah, I've found that like, so it's still clicky, right?

00:02:41   Because it's still plastic on glass.

00:02:44   I've noticed that when I'm... because I come at this from a more of a handwriting perspective,

00:02:48   so maybe I'm kind of lifting and putting down the pencil more frequently, right?

00:02:54   So it does make a tapping sound, which isn't as nice, but fundamentally this is better

00:02:59   than anything that I've used as well.

00:03:02   And I actually wrote a review of one of the... maybe one or two articles I write in a year.

00:03:07   I wrote a review for The Pen Addict from the perspective of somebody who is interested

00:03:13   in using the pencil for handwriting. And I have to say that fundamentally this thing

00:03:19   is extremely good for handwriting skills. Like to use as something to take digital notes

00:03:28   more than anything else ever has been before. Like you don't have to zoom in to a specific

00:03:32   area so you can write in a way that's basically not every word filling up an eighth of the

00:03:37   screen. The precision that the Apple Pencil is able to give is kind of incredible. Like

00:03:42   I can write smaller than it seems that the pencil can actually pick up.

00:03:47   So like I'm making movements, which are my regular hand movements, but the

00:03:52   pencil tip seems conceivably too thick to make the tiny, tiny text that I'm able to

00:03:57   get from it.

00:03:58   Like I am incredibly impressed with how responsive and precise this thing is from

00:04:04   a handwriting perspective.

00:04:05   Well, you think about the other iPad styluses when previously we were trying

00:04:09   to write reasonably sized letters with those big gigantic nibs.

00:04:13   And even that you could get kind of a simulation of handwriting, but it was just terrible.

00:04:18   And you know, despite the fact that I use this primarily for drawing, handwriting is

00:04:21   always the first thing I test with a stylus because it tells me very quickly how just

00:04:26   how responsive the pen is going to be and how precise the pen is going to be.

00:04:32   Because it's a much better real world test for having to trace over lines.

00:04:37   And it is one of the first things I tried with the pencil was writing in big letters,

00:04:40   writing in smaller letters, and writing in the smallest possible letters that I could

00:04:44   think of.

00:04:46   And not only was it able to write in what I would call four or five point font, but

00:04:50   I was able to outline and trace over those letters with pinpoint precision, which has

00:04:55   never happened for a digital stylist that I've used.

00:05:00   Again, Wacom comes close.

00:05:02   But the Cintiq, I mean the Cintiq line has always felt big and clunky and overburdened

00:05:08   to me.

00:05:09   Where it's like, okay, there's this big giant display and it's heavy and it has to be tethered

00:05:13   to your computer.

00:05:15   And the tablet interface is unfortunately terrible.

00:05:18   You know, the Cintiq Companion I just wasn't impressed by as a portable solution.

00:05:23   And here's this thing.

00:05:24   This thing is probably half the weight of the Cintiq Companion and has a retina screen

00:05:29   and can connect to your Mac via AstroPad.

00:05:32   And you can take notes on it on the go and it just, I don't know.

00:05:36   The more I work with the iPad Pro, especially when paired with the pencil, the more impressed

00:05:40   I am.

00:05:41   I was drawing a birthday card for my little sister this morning.

00:05:44   And it was just one of those things where prior to this, if I wanted to do a full color

00:05:51   card for somebody, that would probably be nine or ten hours of work because I would

00:05:56   do the original sketch.

00:05:58   Then I would scan or take a photo of the sketch to put it on my device.

00:06:03   Then if I was working on an iPad, I would just have to suffer through at like 200% zoom

00:06:09   with one of my styluses and pray that the stroke coming out is the stroke I want.

00:06:15   If I was using Photoshop, then I'd have to hook up my Intuos to my laptop.

00:06:20   That would mean I'd have to bring my Intuos.

00:06:21   I'm on vacation right now, so that's extra stuff and heavy.

00:06:26   And then so much, so much effort.

00:06:30   Whereas the iPad, I did that in three hours.

00:06:32   And I've been doing, I did all of these drawings, I was on the plane, I did three or four live

00:06:37   sketches, some with some typography in under three hours.

00:06:41   I think I did three or four.

00:06:43   And that just, it feels like a real, it doesn't feel like a real pencil in terms of the plastic

00:06:49   on glass feeling.

00:06:50   That's not going to happen unless Apple figures out a way to make tactics fool your brain.

00:06:55   But it feels as close to a real sketchbook as you possibly can with a digital instrument.

00:07:01   And the thing that really excites me about this is that Apple's just getting started.

00:07:05   This is a 1.0 product, and it doesn't work the way that the Microsoft Surface does.

00:07:11   It doesn't work the way that the Wacom does.

00:07:13   It's using an entirely new type of technology to try and achieve this, which means that

00:07:17   it can only get better from here.

00:07:19   And that is mind-blowing to me.

00:07:21   That is so exciting.

00:07:24   Because Wacom has been working at this for what, 20 years, 25 years now?

00:07:28   Apple's on year one publicly.

00:07:31   Yeah, that's the thing that blows me away as well, is that this is 1.0.

00:07:36   We've gone from me wanting something to me just having what I wanted.

00:07:40   But this is the thing that I've wanted since 2010 though, right?

00:07:44   Like I've wanted to be able to do this since the iPad was introduced, but only now am I

00:07:49   able to do it.

00:07:50   it's fine because now I've got what I want and it's perfect.

00:07:54   And it's perfect, exactly. It's not half fast.

00:07:57   I don't care that I had to wait.

00:07:59   It's funny because I've been writing this sort of this experimental series on iMore

00:08:03   and people responded after my first day with the pencil being like,

00:08:06   "Yeah, but they should have done it three years ago."

00:08:08   And I'm like, "No, you know what?

00:08:10   They started working on this three or four years ago because that's when we started to see patents."

00:08:14   And I like to get a 1.0 that's perfect,

00:08:17   I would have so much rather had a 1.0 that was perfect than get a 1.0 that was half-assed

00:08:23   and felt like every other stylus on the market.

00:08:26   The fact that Apple—and also, you know what?

00:08:27   I will defend—a lot of people are like, "Oh man, I love this.

00:08:30   Now I want it on an iPad Air or a Mini."

00:08:33   I can definitely see this coming to the iPad Air in future installments, but I will defend

00:08:38   the 12.9-inch screen with my life the more I use it with the Pro.

00:08:43   Because for sketching, it is the perfect size.

00:08:46   It really is.

00:08:47   It's sketchbook sized.

00:08:49   And even for writing, you turn it in portrait and then all of a sudden you have a clipboard

00:08:52   that you can write on.

00:08:54   It feels so good in my hand.

00:08:56   And I feel like I'm just heaping praise on this.

00:09:00   There are definitely things that it doesn't do perfectly.

00:09:03   But I don't know, I'm just so impressed that Apple was able to do this and make it work

00:09:09   so well.

00:09:10   And even in third party apps, even third party apps that haven't taken full advantage of

00:09:15   the APIs that Apple's now included for the pencil, it still works well.

00:09:20   Yeah.

00:09:21   Saying about the perfection thing, we both keep saying it's perfect, and you touched

00:09:24   on it a little bit.

00:09:26   When I say it's perfect, the result is perfect.

00:09:28   I actually think the hardware, the Apple Pencil itself, was an incredible feat.

00:09:33   Like I was listening to Jason and John on the talk show just before we started, and

00:09:36   the idea that it just works.

00:09:38   You just pick it up and it works, you plug it in and it charges.

00:09:41   There are a couple of things that leave a little bit to be desired.

00:09:45   For me personally, I think the fact that it is just a cylinder, it doesn't work for me.

00:09:50   I really wish that they would have put a flat edge on this thing or a clip.

00:09:53   And I know, I talk about it in the piece that I wrote.

00:09:57   The way that Apple tried to combat this is to put magnets in the pencil.

00:10:00   So when you put it down it shouldn't roll away.

00:10:03   But what I've found is, if you put it down quickly, like if you drop it down on the desk,

00:10:08   which is something I do, like I'm writing, I just put it down.

00:10:10   Like I don't place, I put it down.

00:10:12   If you put it down with any force, the magnets can end up giving the pencil momentum to move

00:10:16   further, right?

00:10:17   And it just like, off it goes.

00:10:19   Like it's just running away from me.

00:10:22   Which is, you know, I can see why they did it because the magnets also serve a dual purpose

00:10:26   because, well the bytes are magnets, right?

00:10:28   So they sort of serve that kind of that dual purpose in the device.

00:10:32   I would have liked to have seen a clip.

00:10:33   I'm looking forward to what will inevitably be third party clips, right?

00:10:36   I just feel like they're going to come.

00:10:38   There are already Kickstarters.

00:10:39   I don't doubt that.

00:10:40   There are probably already just pencil clips and pen clips for other devices, for other

00:10:44   pens and pencils that you can just clip on the scene and it will work.

00:10:48   But it's just, you know, we're completely gushing about this because for people that

00:10:51   care about this thing, it does exactly what we need.

00:10:54   And one of the things that I keep coming back to is this thing is so perfect, why is it

00:11:02   so difficult for me to get it?

00:11:03   I haven't even mentioned how I got this yet.

00:11:05   They're still not in London.

00:11:06   Marco Arment bought one of these for me and FedExed it from New York.

00:11:11   And somehow it got to you.

00:11:13   That's how I was able to get my hands on one of these things.

00:11:16   There's still, I'm talking to people in London still about this, like in the business teams,

00:11:22   they're still not available anywhere in London.

00:11:25   And it's like this thing is so amazing and I'm talking about it, everybody's writing

00:11:28   about it, everyone's saying how incredible it is, but nobody can actually buy one still.

00:11:32   That problem still remains.

00:11:34   And it's a little bit shocking to me that Apple, it's shocking to me how poorly this

00:11:40   rolled out.

00:11:41   But my guess is something happened with quality control, where there was just a huge batch

00:11:47   of pencils that something was wrong.

00:11:51   And when it comes down to it, just like, would I have rather they shipped it two years ago

00:11:55   or would I would I rather they shipped it today?

00:11:58   I would much rather pencils get shipped that didn't have terrible defects in them, because

00:12:03   then you're looking at a bunch of people who are really upset

00:12:05   and they're like, oh, these reviewers told me

00:12:07   this pencil is perfect, but then I pulled it out of the box

00:12:10   and it has terrible lag, or the pencil tip falls off,

00:12:12   or the cap-- you know what?

00:12:14   I honestly wouldn't be surprised if shoddy caps were

00:12:18   what stopped the whole thing, because I'm still

00:12:20   frustrated with the cap.

00:12:21   That's one thing we're talking about, build quality.

00:12:24   The weight of the pencil feels amazing.

00:12:25   I love the length.

00:12:27   It's actually the exact same size as one of my HB pencils,

00:12:30   which I need to photograph at some point, which

00:12:33   is so funny to me. But the lack of a clip is annoying. And the stupid cap. I had what

00:12:43   felt like a near death experience where I moved into, I was coming into the RV, you

00:12:49   know, where we're staying for vacation, and I dropped all of my stuff on the floor. And

00:12:54   then I was I picked up my pencil and the cap was gone. And I had this like, my heart leapt

00:12:59   in my chest and I'm like, "Oh my god, I'm never gonna find it again!" And luckily, it

00:13:04   wasn't that far away. But I'm like, "This thing could just fall off and I could never

00:13:08   see it again." And then I just have this ugly little lightning nib that I'm gonna snap off

00:13:13   inevitably. So that is very frustrating to me. And also, I will say, I love the fact

00:13:19   that you can charge it with the iPad. Because I was drawing—I forget, I was drawing the

00:13:24   other night while watching Jessica Jones and not close to any of my chargers. And I got

00:13:28   a blip on the screen that was like, "Apple Pencil is down to 5%!"

00:13:32   So all I did was I stuck the pencil into the iPad and set it aside for 10 minutes and that

00:13:37   charged it up to like 45%.

00:13:40   That kind of thing is really, it's a really smart idea.

00:13:43   But Apple, you have a smart connector on the iPad.

00:13:48   Why lightning and not the smart connector?

00:13:51   Maybe it's just the quick charge wouldn't work quite as well, but sticking the pencil

00:13:56   out of the device just does feel very awkward.

00:13:59   As cool as it is.

00:14:00   It's still goofy.

00:14:01   Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

00:14:03   And very precarious.

00:14:05   My boyfriend almost snapped it off while we were sitting on the couch and charging it.

00:14:10   I'm like, "Ah, okay."

00:14:11   One thing that I find weird about that is it doesn't sit flush.

00:14:16   No, it doesn't. It pops out a little bit.

00:14:18   Yeah, which I really don't like that part.

00:14:20   It's crazy enough not having to do this, but it wobbles in there.

00:14:24   it doesn't go all the way in and that freaks me out. But I will say

00:14:29   the same thing. I was taking some notes earlier and I noticed it was down to 10%

00:14:32   I was just gonna take a break for a bit I just plugged it in 10 minutes later

00:14:36   and it's at like 60% just like well I mean you know it's like I get why

00:14:41   they're doing it this way but it you know it still kind of is a little bit

00:14:44   like ah but it does work right so and it's the way I would do it is I have the

00:14:48   device with me I'll just plug it in it basically takes no power away from the

00:14:52   iPad to charge the thing, it works, but it's still super freaky as a thing to do.

00:14:58   Yeah, exactly. That's the part of it that really feels like a 1.0 to me. And again,

00:15:03   I wouldn't be surprised if the cap is what's holding up a lot of pencil shipments. I ended

00:15:10   up getting one, ironically, I had the PR team finally send me one, and then it got delayed

00:15:18   because of a crazy shipping malfunction.

00:15:21   So I ran, I heard that pencils in the Northeast

00:15:24   might have gotten around.

00:15:26   So I ran to the nearest, my nearest store

00:15:29   and they had like eight on display.

00:15:31   And it took all of my gumption not to buy all eight

00:15:34   and send them to various people that I knew who wanted them.

00:15:37   But I just, I ended up just getting one.

00:15:39   And then the other one came the next day.

00:15:41   So now I have two pencils,

00:15:43   but one is still in the box because I feel like.

00:15:46   Yeah, when mine arrived, I was like, "Great, I'll cancel my order."

00:15:50   So I cancelled my online order and now I've regretted it because I'm like, "Oh, I'm going

00:15:53   to lose this.

00:15:54   I'm going to lose it, I'm going to break it, and then my life's going to be over."

00:15:57   So I know I need to track one down now.

00:16:00   So I'm probably going to do that.

00:16:01   I need a spare.

00:16:02   Yeah, I feel like I need a spare because this has so quickly become an integral part of

00:16:07   my workflow that if I lose this or break it, I'm going to be so sad because it's so nice.

00:16:16   I have sketched more in the past four days than I have sketched in three years.

00:16:23   It's fluid, it's natural.

00:16:26   I wrote 3,000 words on it on iMore just because it's so easy to and I haven't even done thorough

00:16:32   handwriting.

00:16:34   I've been doing typography with my drawings, but Myke, it sounds like it's really phenomenal.

00:16:39   We haven't even talked about palm rejection, how good palm rejection is.

00:16:43   It's magical.

00:16:44   So this is the thing, right?

00:16:45   So one of the issues that I've always had with palm rejection, like the palm rejection

00:16:48   that people build in software is I'm left-handed.

00:16:51   And it tends to be that there may be left-handed modes, but they tend not to get the same amount

00:16:55   of care and love.

00:16:56   But the palm rejection, like I was just testing this, like I was just drawing a line on the

00:16:59   pencil and running my other hand all over the iPad and nothing happens.

00:17:03   It's like the pencil is the only thing that's recognized.

00:17:07   It works perfectly.

00:17:08   Like the handwriting, it's just, you know, I write with this thing and it looks the way

00:17:13   I would expect it to look and that is the most important part for me.

00:17:16   And the palm rejection is 100% perfect for me.

00:17:20   I like lay on this thing and write like the same way

00:17:23   that I would be laying on a table and writing.

00:17:25   But there's one other point, though, that I find really interesting,

00:17:29   which is using the pencil as an input method for the iPad forced up.

00:17:35   Yes. Like I sit and just use the I use the iPad

00:17:40   with a pen. Like it is for stylists constantly and it works great because

00:17:44   there are some things where the precision really helps like text

00:17:47   selection like hitting a word and dragging the the pointers is way easier

00:17:51   with the pencil. I sit and like scroll lists in Tweetbot and one of the reasons

00:17:55   this is so comfortable for me is for the last maybe month I've been using a

00:17:59   Intuos tablet a Wacom Intuos tablet to control my iMac. Like that is how I now

00:18:05   interact with my iMac so it works so perfectly for me to pick up the pencil

00:18:09   so I can interact with my iPad in that way.

00:18:12   One thing that I tried that I liked

00:18:14   was I installed the SwiftKey keyboard

00:18:17   and I was using the swipe stuff

00:18:18   like as a way to type out messages.

00:18:20   You just swipe it, but keyboard support on the iPad

00:18:23   sucks so bad that you kind of don't want

00:18:25   to really use it seriously.

00:18:26   But like eventually when they fix the keyboard problem,

00:18:30   it will work even better for me.

00:18:31   But like I've just been really pleased

00:18:34   with just using this device with a pencil

00:18:38   and it works so great for me to just like tap this piece of UI, drag this over here,

00:18:43   drop it down, type something with both hands, pick it back up.

00:18:46   I could not be happier and it is complete.

00:18:50   I mean, I already love the iPad Pro, but now it's like a whole next level.

00:18:54   The pencil makes more of a difference to the iPad Pro to me than any hardware

00:19:00   keyboard ever will. Whereas the hardware keyboards, they're nice for writing.

00:19:05   But you're absolutely right.

00:19:06   It's funny to me because I think of the pencil

00:19:09   as very much an old world device, right?

00:19:11   Pens are one of the earliest things we moved to after touch.

00:19:16   It's like, okay, now we're cave painting.

00:19:18   Oh, hey, we can sharpen a stick and then write with it.

00:19:21   Hey, that works.

00:19:22   So it's so funny to me that we're going back

00:19:25   to that sort of integral, we're holding an input device,

00:19:29   but we're also using our fingers.

00:19:31   And we also have the opportunity to use the keyboard.

00:19:33   And it really gives like what I love about the iPad Pro right now is that it's giving you the option to choose

00:19:39   Which input device is best for you at what particular point and I absolutely agree with you about the input people being like me

00:19:48   Mmm stylus is blah blah blah doomed

00:19:50   Can go just sit in a corner because here's the thing some people, you know

00:19:55   Some people don't want to touch the screen all the time

00:19:58   or you're right, absolutely the precision.

00:20:01   I've been using the pencil to do a lot of video editing.

00:20:04   And what's really, really cool about iMovie on the iPad Pro,

00:20:08   and it is very limited,

00:20:10   but there are some really great gestures

00:20:13   that allow you to do things

00:20:16   that you would normally just use keyboard commands for.

00:20:19   And one of those things is cutting up clips.

00:20:21   You swipe down to cut a clip in two.

00:20:23   And I've been using the pencil to cut and move clips around

00:20:26   with no problems whatsoever.

00:20:28   And I love it. And I also, I love that you can use both the pencil and touch

00:20:32   gestures. You know, you can do multiple things at once with it.

00:20:35   And it's just, I don't know, it feels so natural.

00:20:39   And the fact that this is 1.0 just makes me so excited for

00:20:43   all of Apple's problems with 1.0 products in the last year.

00:20:47   They're like, we're going to mess up everything else, but the pencil is going to be

00:20:52   the one good 1.0 product.

00:20:54   You just wait, guys. It's all going to be OK.

00:20:56   Now that's how I feel like, you know, we've had so many things on the show

00:21:00   recently that have made us sad and angry.

00:21:02   Um, but this one, you know, it's, it's filling me with the joy and delight

00:21:06   that Apple products should and have done for so many years.

00:21:09   Yeah.

00:21:11   And even if you're not a sketch, like someone who draws or someone

00:21:14   who writes with any regularity, I really think you should go give a pencil a shot.

00:21:19   Like people listening, if you can find one and even just in the demo room,

00:21:22   it's so funny to me because I've been giving, you know, I've had my iPad

00:21:25   I'd purl around and people are like, "Oh, hey, that's a thing."

00:21:29   And I'll hand the pencil to them and step one I say, "You can put your hand on the screen."

00:21:33   Because inevitably they start to try and write curved around.

00:21:38   And I'm like, "No, put your hand on the screen."

00:21:40   And then I say, "Try writing."

00:21:42   Because they automatically dismiss writing as something that you could even do with the

00:21:45   pencil.

00:21:46   And their face, like everybody I've handed this to, their faces light up in a way that's

00:21:52   really, really impressive to me.

00:21:55   The original iPad made some people really excited.

00:21:58   Some of my friends really excited and some people were just like, whatever.

00:22:01   The pencil, everybody I have tried this is like, Oh my gosh, I could use this.

00:22:07   I need this.

00:22:08   This is awesome.

00:22:09   Like it's universal joy, which is really awesome.

00:22:12   Well done.

00:22:14   Yeah, I'm, we could probably do this forever.

00:22:17   But I'm concerned Jason's actually just left the room now.

00:22:20   I know Jason's like, I'm bored.

00:22:22   He's sleeping.

00:22:23   I'm getting a lot of other unrelated work done right now, so thank you.

00:22:28   There you go.

00:22:29   I did want to say really quickly before we wrap up, I tested the Microsoft Surface Book

00:22:37   and Surface Pro 4 against the iPad Pro.

00:22:40   Not really against, it was more like I visited the Windows Central offices and was like,

00:22:44   "Hey guys, let me draw on your Surface Book for a little while."

00:22:48   Because I know some artists who have a Surface right now and are like, "Well, I just spent

00:22:52   this money? Should I go over to an iPad Pro? What's different? What's awesome? The Surface

00:22:58   is still pretty good. The Ntrig technology that powers the Surface's pen is actually

00:23:04   not bad. But I think the Pencil wins hands down in writing, just absolutely. Even though

00:23:13   the Surface runs a full operating system, I think that there's so much you can do with

00:23:18   the iPad as is and then also you introduce apps like AstroPad which turn your display

00:23:24   into a second screen specifically for artist work.

00:23:28   So using Photoshop or any app that has those kinds of compatible tools.

00:23:34   There's a lot of ways to work around this and there are great native apps on the iPad

00:23:39   that you can start a drawing, say in Procreate and export it to Photoshop if you really need

00:23:42   to finish in Photoshop.

00:23:45   I don't necessarily know if people should trash their Surface and immediately run out

00:23:49   and buy an iPad.

00:23:50   The Surface is still a pretty good tablet.

00:23:53   But I think it's a difference between, "Microsoft, you did a pretty good job.

00:23:58   This is not a bad tablet."

00:24:00   And it's an interesting concept to, "The iPad Pro is the device that I want to carry around.

00:24:04   The Pencil is the device that I would, hands down, buy this in a second, not look back."

00:24:09   About a shadow of a doubt.

00:24:10   No, I'm sure you're going to continue writing tons of great stuff on iMore.com about all

00:24:15   of this. So much, so much. Wren, thank you so much for joining me because Jason

00:24:20   wouldn't have given me this level of excitement back. I'm here for you

00:24:25   Myke by bringing in other people to be here for you. Wren, thank you so much for

00:24:29   joining us. Where else can people find you online? Thanks, Myke. I can be

00:24:34   found at @Sattern on Twitter and Instagram and of course on iMore

00:24:39   every single day where I'll be writing and drawing lots about the iPad Pro and

00:24:44   Pencil. Thank you, Ran. Thank you.

00:24:46   All right, Jason, let me take a quick break and thank our first

00:24:49   sponsor for this week, and that is Braintree Code for Easy Online Payments.

00:24:55   If you are a mobile app developer, you should check out Braintree.

00:24:58   Braintree is the payment solution used by companies like Uber,

00:25:01   Airbnb, Hotel Tonight, Living Social and Muntree.

00:25:04   Braintree has made the payment experiences in these apps

00:25:07   completely seamless, almost magical, you could say.

00:25:10   And now you can add a similar experience to your own app as well.

00:25:14   With excellent customer service and simple integration,

00:25:17   Braintree will get you ready to receive payments quickly.

00:25:20   Braintree's continuous support plus fast payouts means that you'll be prepared

00:25:24   as your company grows from your first dollar to your billionth.

00:25:28   Braintree is also here to help solve the problem of mobile cart abandonment

00:25:32   by offering a best in class mobile checkout experience.

00:25:36   When your customers add something to their checkout, Braintree is going to make sure

00:25:39   that it makes it super, super simple, super easy to make sure that they stick

00:25:43   with their purchase.

00:25:46   Braintree also make payment experiences in some of your favorite apps

00:25:49   seamless and magical.

00:25:50   Now you can add a similar experience to your own app as well

00:25:54   with a full stack payment solution support for all payment types

00:25:58   that your customers might want, including PayPal, Apple Pay, Bitcoin, Venmo,

00:26:01   cards and more, all of a single integration.

00:26:04   And it's with you across all platforms as well with superior for protection

00:26:09   and their fantastic customer service,

00:26:10   and again, those fast payouts.

00:26:12   To learn more, and for your first $50,000 in transactions,

00:26:15   fee free, go to Braintreepayments.com/upgrade.

00:26:19   Thank you so much to Braintree

00:26:20   for their support of this show.

00:26:22   So Jason, would you feel better now

00:26:25   if we spoke about some kind of clicky keyboard for a while?

00:26:27   Would that make you feel a little bit better?

00:26:29   - We talked about the keyboard a lot last time.

00:26:31   It's fine, it's good.

00:26:33   We're still in the follow-up too, do you realize that?

00:26:35   - I am fully aware of that.

00:26:36   That was like a, we'll have to come up with some new name

00:26:39   for what we just did.

00:26:40   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:26:41   That's another John Sirakusen not approved adjective to use

00:26:46   to describe this thing or preposition, I guess.

00:26:49   Follow over.

00:26:50   - But there is a piece of follow up.

00:26:52   - Yes, there was special guest follow up.

00:26:54   It's good, it's exciting.

00:26:55   - Special guest follow up.

00:26:56   There we go, we got it.

00:26:57   Nice work.

00:26:58   There was something from a couple of weeks ago

00:27:00   that we mentioned that you ended up digging up,

00:27:01   which was you mentioned in passing a week,

00:27:04   Or was it a month where Apple basically announced something

00:27:07   every day, right?

00:27:09   Oh, it was even longer than that.

00:27:11   It was a long, long stretch of time

00:27:13   where they kept on-- every Tuesday,

00:27:16   there'd be another press release that would drop.

00:27:18   And at some point, we mentioned to the PR people, hey,

00:27:22   it's been three or four weeks in a row with press releases.

00:27:24   And they said, we're just getting started.

00:27:26   It's going to be a busy year.

00:27:27   And we all looked at each other like, seriously?

00:27:29   And sure enough, the next week, another press release,

00:27:31   and the next week, another press release.

00:27:33   went on seemingly forever.

00:27:35   - And they have an awful stuff.

00:27:37   What are some of your favorite highlights

00:27:38   from 2008's press release madness?

00:27:41   - So 2008, it turns out, I did dig around

00:27:44   and find that 2008 was the right time.

00:27:46   2008, at the beginning of the year, let's see,

00:27:51   they, on the 8th of January, they introduced a new Mac Pro

00:27:54   and they introduced the Xserve.

00:27:55   On the 15th, they introduced the MacBook Air time capsule.

00:28:01   I think this is basically a Mac World Expo keynote.

00:28:05   iPhone software update, iPod touch software update,

00:28:09   Apple TV software update.

00:28:11   That was the Mac World Expo keynote.

00:28:14   On the 22nd of January, they added a pink iPod nano.

00:28:20   - Big deal, seriously.

00:28:24   - But seriously, that was one of those things

00:28:26   where it's like, we need a press release this week,

00:28:28   but we're really tired from Mac World Expo.

00:28:30   What should we do?

00:28:31   just put the pink nano in the press release and that'll be fine. There's a whole press

00:28:34   release about "Apple adds pink to the iPod nano lineup." Literally, that is what the

00:28:39   press release is. Oh, these were innocent times. On January 30th, they announced that

00:28:44   the MacBook Air was shipping, after having announced it 15 days before. On February 5th,

00:28:50   they added new iPhone and iPod Touch models, which is that basically they did a 16 gig

00:28:59   iPhone and 32 version of the iPod touch. So they added some new sizes of the iPhone and

00:29:07   iPod touch. On the 12th, they released Aperture 2. On the 19th, they cut the price of the

00:29:13   iPod shuffle and introduced the X-San, which is their crazy storage thing for the X-Serve.

00:29:18   On the 26th, they introduced new MacBooks and MacBook Pros.

00:29:22   - Are you putting our listeners through the hell now that you had to go through? Is that

00:29:25   what's happening here?

00:29:26   Then it was March, Myke! And in March, March 6th, they did an iPhone 2.0 software beta.

00:29:34   March 12th, they did an announcement about how many developers had downloaded the iPhone

00:29:39   SDK. That was a light week, I guess. March 17th, they introduced the new Airport Express.

00:29:44   And the next day, they introduced a new version of Safari, a new version of Aperture on March

00:29:48   28th. They did some iTunes stuff in the first week of April, so that was kind of a Slack

00:29:55   week, but there were two press releases that week anyway. The next week they announced

00:29:59   the Final Cut server was shipping. A couple weeks after that, they did their financial

00:30:05   results and the week after that, they updated the iMac. So it trailed off in April, but

00:30:11   January, February, March, pretty much every week we were scrambling on a Tuesday because

00:30:16   there was an Apple product rollout. It was pretty insane because... And we contrast that

00:30:21   with what has happened this fall where they had one event and they announced basically

00:30:27   everything and we've just been watching it roll out, which is a little bit of a different

00:30:32   strategy.

00:30:33   But then what was quite funny is the June, July of that year was probably one of the

00:30:38   most in history most important announcements that Apple ever made, which was the iPhone

00:30:43   3G and the App Store and the SDK and all that sort of stuff all came in that year as well.

00:30:48   It's a huge, huge year.

00:30:50   - Yeah, oh yeah, 'cause yeah, you got the iPhone 3G

00:30:53   and they kept on rolling out the SDK

00:30:55   and then we had the big launch of the app store

00:30:59   and that all happened and then they took a nap.

00:31:03   - Yeah, until the end of the year.

00:31:04   So it's quite funny, right?

00:31:05   We've been inundated over the last couple of months

00:31:09   with product releases, but 2008 is an example

00:31:12   that it all happened then, but just at the start of the year,

00:31:15   they just did everything.

00:31:17   - Yeah, and it's funny 'cause in October of that year,

00:31:19   They did the unibody MacBook.

00:31:21   That was the first unibody MacBook was in October.

00:31:25   And then the big news, the big news, Myke,

00:31:27   in November, they hired Mark Papermaster.

00:31:32   - Everybody's favorite Papermaster.

00:31:33   - Several months later, they fired.

00:31:35   And then to top it all off in December of that year,

00:31:39   that is when they cut all ties with Macworld

00:31:42   and announced it was their last year and all of that.

00:31:45   That was a, so it was an eventful year,

00:31:47   but a pretty crazy start to it.

00:31:49   The heady days of 2008, right?

00:31:52   Those were wild times.

00:31:53   Wild times.

00:31:54   Talking about wild times, you have gone ahead and launched a new subscription.

00:31:59   Would you call it a subscription?

00:32:01   How are you describing what you've done here with Six Colors?

00:32:04   Yeah, so a couple weeks ago I launched it.

00:32:06   This is the way for people, I've been hearing from the beginning that people wanted to support

00:32:10   me in doing Six Colors and they're not going to be sponsors because they don't have products

00:32:14   to sponsor or something like that, but they wanted to find some way to do it.

00:32:16   And I listened to that and then got really uncomfortable

00:32:20   about asking people for money for quite a while.

00:32:22   And then two weeks ago,

00:32:23   I launched what I'm calling Six Color Subscriptions.

00:32:26   I actually had a whole,

00:32:29   there's a whole thought process behind that, right?

00:32:31   About whether you call it subscriptions or memberships

00:32:32   or the club or what,

00:32:35   or support or patronage or something like that.

00:32:37   And I decided that subscription was what I wanted to say

00:32:42   partially, maybe that's my background

00:32:44   of working for a magazine for all that time.

00:32:46   But the idea is you are subscribing.

00:32:48   It is an ongoing relationship.

00:32:50   The reality is you are paying annual or monthly amount

00:32:55   of money to get some stuff.

00:32:57   And it does have the net effect of supporting the site,

00:33:00   but I wanted to not have it just be purely like,

00:33:04   give me money because you'll feel good about giving me money.

00:33:07   I wanted to have some other things around it.

00:33:09   So I just decided to sit on the wording of subscription

00:33:13   and subscriber and rather than like a membership and member,

00:33:16   which I thought about, I just, I, for whatever reason,

00:33:21   this is the, this is the one I was more comfortable with.

00:33:23   - That's the world you come from, I think.

00:33:25   I think that might be part of it.

00:33:27   Like, you know, subscription was the word that you used

00:33:30   in your brain to tie this thing together, right?

00:33:32   Magazines.

00:33:33   - Yeah, exactly, exactly right.

00:33:35   I, well, I decided to go with that theme too.

00:33:37   So rather than having a, like, I was gonna do a weekly

00:33:40   or a monthly newsletter, and Federico came out with Max Stories, Club Max Stories, and

00:33:47   the Max Stories Weekly Newsletter. And I thought, okay, well, do I really want to go down that

00:33:51   path of having something that sounds very much like what Federico did, even though,

00:33:56   you know, I was working on this before I ever heard that he was working on it. I just delayed

00:34:01   it forever, and his delay was less than mine. But I didn't want to seem like I was producing

00:34:06   the same thing as Federico because I just didn't want to do that. I didn't want to be

00:34:09   seen as a copycat. So I thought about the idea of calling, rather than calling it a

00:34:16   newsletter, calling it a magazine, you know, for reference point of where I come from and

00:34:23   also that it is a thing that you get, you know, in your box every so often. And by not

00:34:28   saying it's weekly or monthly, that gives me some latitude, you know, it's going to

00:34:32   be monthly at least, but we could decide to do it more often. And by calling it Six Colors

00:34:37   magazine, this newsletter that shows up in your box if you're a subscriber, then I had

00:34:43   the leeway to do that, to change the frequency of it as we see fit. So that all kind of was

00:34:48   in there. But, you know, rather than calling it a club that you could become a member of,

00:34:53   I decided to go with the other approach, again, because reasons, but still, yeah, that was

00:35:00   -- you're right, it does go back to sort of like this is the world that I'm from, but

00:35:03   I think more than that it's also the world that I'm somewhat identified with, and I kind

00:35:06   of wanted to play on that. So as well as the warm fuzzy feeling that you get for

00:35:12   supporting you and Dan, right, I assume this will also be helping support Dan

00:35:16   Morrow as well as Mr. Jason Snow. Well I mean I'm paying Dan to write for the

00:35:20   site and by having if I have more of a budget then then I can I can pay more to

00:35:25   Dan and he can help with the magazine newsletter thing and yes so yes is the

00:35:30   answer it's not direct because it's basically the way it works at Six Colors

00:35:34   is me and it's my company and then I pay Dan. Dan is basically a

00:35:40   contractor so more work for Dan is more money for Dan and that's I

00:35:44   think that Dan likes that and we like working together and we're it so

00:35:49   yeah. So as well as that warm fuzzy feeling people the perk if you would

00:35:54   call it is the magazine then right that is the little additional thing

00:35:57   that members will get as a thank you for being a member or a subscriber sorry. I

00:36:01   I wanted it to be, sure, whatever.

00:36:04   I wanted it, I just, I had this strong feeling

00:36:08   that I didn't want, I think the primary reason

00:36:11   you support a site or a podcast or whatever

00:36:14   is because you want to feel good about supporting it.

00:36:16   I think that is the number one reason you do it.

00:36:19   I didn't want a pure patronage thing where it's like,

00:36:23   look, please donate because you'll feel good.

00:36:25   I wanted, I wanna give something back.

00:36:28   I want there to be something that's part of it

00:36:29   that's tangible, even if it's not something,

00:36:32   even if people don't ever read the magazine,

00:36:35   the newsletter, whatever it ends up looking like,

00:36:38   even if they don't actually use that.

00:36:40   I was talking to Sean Blanc about this

00:36:42   because he's got a membership for his site.

00:36:44   And he said, you know, he does a podcast

00:36:49   and for members, which I'm not gonna do

00:36:51   because there are too many podcasts that I'm on already.

00:36:54   But I don't, he expressed to me some skepticism

00:36:59   about whether a lot of the members actually listen to the podcast, but it's good that

00:37:03   it's there. And I agree completely with that idea that psychologically, I think it's good

00:37:07   to feel like you get something out of it. That not only are you doing something good

00:37:11   and supportive for something you like, but you do get something in return, even if it's

00:37:15   not the, you know, if you didn't know who I was and you didn't care about what I do,

00:37:21   and entirely you're viewing it as a transaction that is, I give you money and you give me

00:37:25   this newsletter. I don't think that's a good enough balance, right? I think, and I had

00:37:31   a couple people email me and say, "Why would I give you $60 a year for a newsletter?" My

00:37:37   answer is, if all you're doing is paying the money to get the newsletter, it's probably

00:37:42   not a good deal for you. You know, you need to be kind of, this is about supporting me

00:37:48   to write more things on the site that I give away for free that you're not going to get

00:37:51   as a special. You're going to get it like everybody else gets it, but you're going to

00:37:54   one of the people who makes that happen. And as a thank you, there will be some nice things

00:37:59   that we do that nobody else can see that you will get to see. But the primary purpose of

00:38:03   supporting the site is to give us the ability to write more stuff on the site for everybody

00:38:08   to see. And then the bonuses are just a little bit extra because I feel like I didn't want

00:38:14   it to be completely intangible, that all you get is warm fuzzies. I want it to be warm

00:38:18   fuzzies and other stuff too. And so that's what the that is if we do a if we do a like

00:38:24   a membership subscriber only forum at some point that would be a similar thing. If we

00:38:29   offer like discounts or deals or something it'll be a similar thing but those are not

00:38:33   going to be we're not going to gate stuff on the site nor is that the primary objective

00:38:39   of the of the of the membership is it's not to do that and I've I've also heard from people

00:38:44   that who have asked, I mean, you get a lot of questions like this, like, "Why can't

00:38:50   you charge me less? I don't want to give you $6 a month, but I would give you $2 a

00:38:55   month." And my answer is, "I'm asking for $6 a month. That's a decision I made."

00:38:59   And you know, that's the threshold. And if you don't feel strongly enough about this

00:39:03   to hit the threshold, that's fine. The site's still going to be there. But that's the

00:39:08   number that I decided to set, and $60 a year. Also, the site's called Six Colors, so there

00:39:13   we're going to be sixes in the prices. That's how it is.

00:39:15   Personal brand, right?

00:39:17   I guess. I don't have a specific affinity for the number six, and I'm colorblind. And

00:39:23   yet here we are.

00:39:24   What are you going to do? You're stuck in it now, Jason. You had a good idea for a name

00:39:28   and now it controls everything. That's how these things go.

00:39:30   The domain was available.

00:39:32   Yep.

00:39:33   Mm-hmm.

00:39:34   The pricing is, you say, $6 a month, $60 a year. So basically you get two months free

00:39:37   if you sign up for a year. How have you felt about the reaction so far, the response? Has

00:39:43   it been good? Have you been happy with it?

00:39:45   Yeah, I think the response has been fantastic. It's been very supportive. It's not too surprising

00:39:51   in the sense that one of the reasons that this actually happened is because I heard

00:39:55   from so many people who said, "I want to support what you're doing." And right now there's

00:40:00   no way to support what you're doing. And we're living in this world where Kickstarter exists

00:40:04   and Patreon exists, and I had sponsors on the site, but no direct means of support for

00:40:12   readers. And to get back to the subscriber thing, a lot of the people discovered me from

00:40:17   a place where there was a subscription relationship, right? It's like, there was a way when you

00:40:23   read Macworld, you felt like if you were reading the magazine, you paid for it. And so there

00:40:29   was that connection there, and you had ads in it too, but you were a participant in that

00:40:33   process. And I learned a lot when I was at IDG about the fact that, especially in harder

00:40:38   times when things like sponsorship advertising revenue can drain away, it really is helpful

00:40:43   that you've got people who read your stuff and are willing to give you money for it because

00:40:48   that is another way you can weather a storm. And a lot of the executives at IDG come from

00:40:54   the sales side. Almost all of them originate as being ad salespeople. And it's interesting

00:40:59   to see, you know, in good times the business decisions are all made sort of with the audience

00:41:06   as a secondary thought. I'll put it nicely, like it's all about the customer or the advertisers,

00:41:13   not the readers. The readers are your product basically, they're the audience, but your

00:41:17   customers are the advertisers. And it's funny, being through a couple of economic downturns,

00:41:23   the great recession and also the dot-com bubble burst. It's amazing how quickly those attitudes

00:41:29   change among the business people when the advertisers all kind of disappear. And suddenly,

00:41:36   at IDG anyway, having that subscriber base became incredibly powerful, like, "Oh, I didn't

00:41:42   realize that people were giving us money." Yes, people, they are your customer too. And

00:41:48   And so I've never forgotten that. And I like, as I'm setting out on my own here, between

00:41:56   the feedback that I got from people and trying to have a diverse set of places where I make

00:42:02   money, that seemed like a good idea to me. The idea that if I can't sell sponsors on

00:42:08   the site, that the site still has a way that it's supporting me. And quite honestly, you

00:42:12   know, if I had three or four weeks where, which hasn't happened, but if I had three

00:42:16   or four weeks where there were no sponsors on the site before, essentially I'm doing

00:42:19   Six Colors completely for free at that point, because there was no other means of support.

00:42:23   And I know some of this is just psychological, but now I feel like even if I have no sponsors

00:42:28   on the site, the site is still operating because I have subscribers. It doesn't matter that

00:42:34   I don't have sponsors some weeks, which I've been very fortunate. I have had very few open

00:42:39   weeks -- shocking compared to what I expected, actually, when I started -- of sponsors not

00:42:44   being on the site, but you get my point that if they were to vanish, I would still have

00:42:49   a reason to do the site because the readers are also supporting the site and that makes

00:42:54   me feel good. So people have been positive. It's unsurprising given like it was one of

00:43:00   my motivators for doing it, that people have been very supportive, very positive. And like

00:43:05   I said, I think I've received two emails from people saying, "I don't think I'm going to

00:43:09   pay you," which...

00:43:10   I think that's a pretty good ratio to be honest, Jason.

00:43:12   It's somewhat surprising because the internet

00:43:15   is full of people who want to tell you things

00:43:17   that they don't need to tell you.

00:43:19   That they can just-- it's fine.

00:43:20   It's like, seriously, it's fine if you

00:43:22   disagree with what I write.

00:43:23   It's fine if you don't think that what I do is valuable.

00:43:28   That's actually-- it's fine.

00:43:29   The site's also not going anywhere.

00:43:30   It's free for you anyway.

00:43:32   But sometimes people have this behavior on the internet.

00:43:34   It's like, well, no, I'm going to tell you

00:43:35   that I'm unfollowing you on Twitter.

00:43:37   It's like, why?

00:43:38   Why do that?

00:43:38   I'm going to tell you that I don't think it's worth it.

00:43:40   So I had two people who wrote in and said,

00:43:42   I don't think it's worth it." And I wrote back very politely and I said, "Well, sort

00:43:46   of what I just said to you, which is the site's still going to be there. These are the prices.

00:43:50   If you feel like supporting me, you know, you're not just doing it for the newsletter.

00:43:53   This isn't like Stratechery where Ben Thompson writes an amazing newsletter five days a week

00:43:59   and only one of those gets posted online. It's not the same kind of balance. This is

00:44:02   more about supporting the public site and also getting some bonuses. And if you don't

00:44:08   feel comfortable with the way that it works, that's fine, the site's still there, please

00:44:12   read it and thanks for reading it." So I wrote back to both of those people with that and

00:44:17   one of them wrote me back and said they subscribed. And seriously, that's where I am. It's weird,

00:44:23   this is a funny world that we live in with patronage, with Patreons and Kickstarters

00:44:28   and things like that. But I would say overall it's been positive and I'd say that my initial

00:44:34   account of members is pretty much what I hoped it would be. I think it's something to build

00:44:41   on. I would like over time to continue to grow the number of members and not feel like

00:44:45   -- if you told me that in six months my membership number would be what it is today, more or

00:44:50   less, I would be disappointed, but I'm very happy with where it is right now as a starting

00:44:56   point.

00:44:57   So it's where you want it to be now, obviously not where you want it to be going forward,

00:45:01   that's kind of accepted because it should go up over time.

00:45:07   You would hope, I mean, you would hope that I would build subscribers and not lose them.

00:45:12   That's always a bad sign.

00:45:13   But in the end, if you back up and look at the bigger picture here, I now have two ways

00:45:21   that I make money from Six Colors.

00:45:22   That allows me to have Six Colors be more prioritized, more part of my job.

00:45:26   It allows me to say no to some of the freelance assignments that I've taken.

00:45:30   I didn't plan when I quit my job to be a freelancer, I planned to do podcasting on Six Colors,

00:45:35   but I had freelance work offered to me and so I took it, but it takes up time that could

00:45:42   go to Six Colors. So one of the things that this does in addition to diversifying my income

00:45:47   is it allows me to turn away from some work that is not the work that I want to do, which

00:45:54   is the work on Six Colors. So it's good. It's been great. It's been a great experience.

00:46:01   And I could not stop doing everything else I do and just do Six Colors, and the addition

00:46:07   of the membership revenue doesn't really change that. But when I was talking to John Gruber

00:46:12   over the weekend on the talk show, I said to him, I think it's a very similar story

00:46:17   to the story that he has, which is, I would like it if my job was do the podcast that

00:46:21   I do and do six colors. I would like it if that was my entire job and I think that would

00:46:25   be great. And right now it's not. I also scramble around and do some freelance stuff too. And

00:46:31   some of that freelance work is great. I mean it's fun writing at Macworld every week. I

00:46:34   am writing there way more than I ever used to and they pay me and that's also nice. But

00:46:39   I also pick up lots of other assignments that are like, "Eh, you know, it's an assignment."

00:46:44   I'm not going to denigrate them on the air, right? But some of them are more mercenary

00:46:49   than others and I would really rather not do those and pour that effort into Six Colors

00:46:54   stuff.

00:46:55   So people should go and sign up, where can they sign up?

00:46:57   You go to sixcolors.com/subscribe or if you just go to sixcolors.com there's a big link

00:47:04   at the top of the page that is become a subscriber that would also get you there.

00:47:09   And it's as we said six dollars a month or sixty dollars a year.

00:47:12   We're using Memberfull which is the same system that Federico uses for Max Stories and that

00:47:17   that Ben Thompson uses for Stratechery. It uses Stripe for payments, so it's a credit

00:47:21   card payment. You can't use PayPal. I wish there were a way for people to use PayPal,

00:47:27   but that's just not how Memberful is set up. And yeah, if you like what I write at Six

00:47:34   Colors and want to support me, that would be the best way to do it.

00:47:39   >> L

00:47:39   listeners who were hanging around on the livestream last week, Jason, they found out a very exciting

00:47:45   little easter egg which has occurred. Who is subscriber number one?

00:47:50   Who is subscriber number one? Is it you? It is me. Do you remember? Last week? 001, that's

00:47:55   my number. I'm the subscriber number one. That was a lot of subscribers ago now, Myke.

00:47:58   I mean, you're just one of the pack now. One of the many now. One of the horde. Yeah, I

00:48:03   have to go way back and review older orders scroll to get back to you but but I appreciate

00:48:09   that you were well I turned it on right it was the test uh-huh and I finally turned it

00:48:14   on and said hey it's turned on and he went okay I got right in there mr. m hurley there

00:48:19   it is ordered member number one Joe Steele your member number four there was one was

00:48:27   it all good about this little stuff one very quick thing I want to mention we sell t-shirts

00:48:30   at Relay FM, lovely Relay FM t-shirts. We're currently doing a 40% off sale for the holidays.

00:48:36   I'll put a link in the show notes. You want to use the coupon code "allthegreatshirts"

00:48:39   at the Relay FM store and you'll get 40% off. We have men and women's shirts in a bunch

00:48:43   of different sizes. I think we want to do a new design next year, so we're doing a little

00:48:49   bit of a sale for 2015 to kind of get rid of some of that stock. So go in there, all

00:48:53   the great shirts, you get 40% off.

00:48:55   And we should say there is a plan, there is a plan, early in the new year for an awesome

00:49:02   upgrade item.

00:49:04   Piece of apparel.

00:49:06   Seriously this is just the best.

00:49:09   So next year.

00:49:10   Let me just take our second break for this week and thank our good friends over at Smile

00:49:15   and today I want to talk to you about TextExpander.

00:49:17   If you ever type the same sentences, phrases or words on a regular basis over and over

00:49:22   again then you need TextExpander in your life.

00:49:24   TextExpander will be able to save you time and effort by expanding your short abbreviations

00:49:30   into frequently used text, even pictures if you want to.

00:49:33   TextExpander is an app that will improve your communication.

00:49:36   So let's say for example you are somebody who you send a lot of emails and a lot of

00:49:40   the emails that you send have very similar text in or you know you send some support

00:49:45   email or maybe you send out maybe you work in HR team and you send out an email which

00:49:49   asks people for references or maybe you do what I do right like I send a bunch of emails

00:49:53   to sponsors and I send in information for payment stuff and things like that.

00:49:59   It is really, really easy with TextExpander to make all of this stuff consistent and quick.

00:50:03   So you can type in a regular response and you can have little dropdown fields so you

00:50:07   can personalize them, which I do.

00:50:09   And what it will do is it just gives you a way to, one, make your communication more

00:50:13   consistent.

00:50:14   So you're sending the exact same thing to different people, which is like tweaks if

00:50:17   you want it.

00:50:18   But it also allows you to save time because you're not sitting there and writing that

00:50:21   stuff out all the time.

00:50:22   Like you know, like at the end of the week I send some stuff out to our sponsors to confirm

00:50:25   some stuff and I use TextExpander to help me get through that, those pile of emails

00:50:30   super quickly because otherwise I'll be sitting there for ages and I love TextExpander for

00:50:34   that sort of stuff.

00:50:36   TextExpander has a new look and feel now with TextExpander 5 and it can help you type even

00:50:40   faster than ever before because now TextExpander will make suggestions of frequently typed

00:50:45   phrases to abbreviate and save time for you.

00:50:47   I also use TextExpander for common errors that I make.

00:50:51   So if I make a spelling mistake frequently or if I don't capitalise something correctly,

00:50:56   like some brands will use like CamelCase and things like that in their words, I throw those

00:51:01   into TextExpander so I just never get them wrong because TextExpander corrects them for

00:51:05   me.

00:51:06   You can also sync them amongst multiple devices using iCloud Drive or Dropbox and they're

00:51:10   available in a bunch of different apps or via the iOS custom keyboard that comes with

00:51:14   TextExpander for iOS allowing you to use your snippets absolutely anywhere whether an app

00:51:19   supports TextExpander snippets or not. TextExpander 5 costs $44.95 US and upgrades are available

00:51:26   for $19.95 for existing users. It's also free to those who purchased on or after January

00:51:32   1st 2015. You can find out more about TextExpander 5 by visiting smilesoftware.com/upgrade.

00:51:41   Thank you so much to Smile and Texas Band of Five

00:51:45   for sponsoring this week's episode.

00:51:47   Please note that Texas Band of Five requires Yosemite

00:51:49   and is ready for El Capitan.

00:51:51   So Mr. Jason Snell, today just before the show

00:51:56   you published your iPad Pro review.

00:51:59   - I did, I did.

00:52:00   You published something too.

00:52:02   - Yeah, I mean, I think we kind of mentioned it

00:52:04   in the pencil part. - We did.

00:52:05   - Yeah, I also today did my Apple Pencil review

00:52:08   on the pen addict, which is also in the show notes

00:52:10   if people wanna read that.

00:52:11   I didn't write as many words as you did though, you know?

00:52:14   - I have to say I'm disappointed your review

00:52:16   was actually typed on, in like in text in a webpage

00:52:19   when I really expected that it would just be a series

00:52:22   of JPEGs of you writing it by hand.

00:52:25   - There is one section in the review

00:52:27   which is also handwritten.

00:52:29   So you can see the images in there.

00:52:30   But yeah, my handwriting isn't good enough

00:52:32   that people would be happy to just read it.

00:52:35   It would have been very upsetting

00:52:36   for everybody involved I think.

00:52:37   - Yeah, your handwriting is not, for a pen addict,

00:52:41   handwriting is not as good as I would expect. But mine, it's better than mine still. But still.

00:52:48   - Hey, I don't think your handwriting has to be great to enjoy pens.

00:52:52   - You know, OneNote was able to properly OCR my handwriting, even though my handwriting is terrible.

00:52:58   But I found out that what it does is it just makes some really, it indexes, it indexes every

00:53:04   possibility for a given word. So you know what you actually wrote. It doesn't know what you actually

00:53:10   I wrote but it could have been one of these four things and if you search for any of them

00:53:13   It will find it because it doesn't actually know but it's kind of magical to use

00:53:18   These one notes automatic search thing where I I wrote a whole page full of notes

00:53:22   And then I searched for a word on it and it came up with it. It's pretty cool. Yeah

00:53:25   So, okay. So yes iPad Pro review I wrote it

00:53:28   Let's get your overall feeling then you spent a bit more time with it than what we spoken about on the show

00:53:34   How are you feeling about the iPad Pro?

00:53:37   Maybe also in compared to the Mac because I really like the title of your piece isn't no country for old Macs

00:53:43   Which is such is very very smart. I like that a lot

00:53:46   So explain a little bit to people about what your kind of thought process is here

00:53:50   Well, it's a lot of it kind of came out when I wrote that piece

00:53:54   last week I wrote a piece about

00:53:57   About who the who the iPad Pro is for and

00:54:04   And that one was new tricks for old dogs, which I've been writing a lot of wacky headlines.

00:54:10   But the idea that the days of us saying the iPad and iOS can't be used for real work are

00:54:17   over, it is undoubtedly capable of using it for real work. And if you stop me and say,

00:54:22   but in my industry, I need this, like, yes, yes, of course, there are gonna be things

00:54:27   in certain industries that just can't be done. But I think for a huge amount of work, it

00:54:32   be done, you can use this. The challenge is, do you want to? And that's sort of the conclusion

00:54:37   of the piece, is, you know, this is an unapologetic iPad. It is not--I did a whole section that

00:54:45   I actually wrote in the intro, planning to write, and then wrote the whole thing and

00:54:47   forgot to write, and I had to insert it last yesterday afternoon when I was finishing this,

00:54:53   about the Surface, because everybody talks about the Surface, and, "Oh, this is like

00:54:58   the Surface because it's got the keyboard and all of that." But I actually think that

00:55:01   this is a startling contrast with the Surface because the Surface is the ultimate compromise.

00:55:09   Surface is all about what Microsoft is about, which is Windows, and people who use Windows

00:55:14   and people who use PCs. And so the Surface is a PC that is also a tablet. It is not the

00:55:19   best PC. It is not the best tablet. It is the best thing that's a tablet and a PC, probably.

00:55:27   And Apple has been very clear that this is not how they want to make products. They want

00:55:33   to make a Mac that's the best Mac and an iPad that's the best iPad and not a toaster fridge,

00:55:38   right? Not something that's in between. And Surface is in between. So I think all of that

00:55:42   is true and I think it speaks to what those companies are about. Apple has no reason to

00:55:47   do that. Mac sales are great, the iPhone is huge. And if you take the big picture, look

00:55:54   out five years or ten years, do we really think we're gonna have like combination devices

00:55:59   that are both a classic PC and something else? I don't think so. I think this is all about

00:56:03   transitions about how there are gonna be people who are comfortable using a computer and there

00:56:08   are people who are comfortable using touchscreen mobile devices and you want to provide tools

00:56:13   for both of them. So I think the question for me is could the iPad, could Apple make

00:56:20   an iPad that's also a Mac and you know it looks like a MacBook and then you pop the

00:56:25   screen off and it's an iPad. It absolutely could. It would definitely feel like a toaster

00:56:31   fridge. Would I want one? Possibly. But would that be a better product or would that be

00:56:37   some kind of a Frankenstein product that is a hugely weird awkward compromise for a time

00:56:47   of compromise. Yeah, I mean that's what it would be, because we are in times of compromise,

00:56:51   we're in times of transition, it would be a transitional product. But the bottom line

00:56:56   is that's not the iPad Pro. The iPad Pro, and this is where the title comes from, there's

00:57:02   a line in the piece that is "The iPad Pro does not exist to give comfort to Mac users."

00:57:06   not what it's for. And, you know, I, having used the Mac for 26 years now, am a Mac user,

00:57:17   and it is not comfortable using iOS for me, although I'm getting better at it. And, you

00:57:23   know, I think that that's one of the problems with evaluating the device, is that it's a

00:57:28   pretty great device for what it is. I don't think the smart keyboard is a great buy for

00:57:34   for most people because I think you'd be better off just giving a Bluetooth keyboard unless

00:57:37   you absolutely need to have a keyboard that you can carry around with you at all times

00:57:41   on the device as a cover. That is a very specific use case, but beyond that I think it's actually

00:57:48   too expensive and not as good as just buying a Bluetooth keyboard and having like a regular

00:57:52   cover that you can use as a stand. But in general, I mean, I can't just say thumbs up

00:57:58   thumbs down on the iPad Pro because I think that's the bottom line is do you want to work

00:58:02   on the iPad Pro? Do you wanna work on iOS? You can. Do you want to? Do you wanna make

00:58:07   the switch? If you're somebody who's like a casual user, somebody who doesn't have a

00:58:13   million different workflows and scripts and things like that, if you're somebody who does

00:58:18   what I said to Gruber was, you know, it's office work, like capital O office work, Microsoft

00:58:23   office work, you could do that on the iPad Pro. And it's pretty great actually. So for

00:58:28   a lot of people, you could, you know, you get the benefits of portability, of ultra-portability

00:58:34   here, even more than a laptop, and of convertibility, in that you can pop the keyboard off and you've

00:58:41   got a tablet, but you, you know, that's the trade-off, is you're out of your Mac metaphor

00:58:48   and you're on your iOS metaphor, and that's just what it is.

00:58:51   >> CHESNEY There's a couple of pieces in here that I wanted to pick out.

00:58:55   >> MARTIN Yup.

00:58:56   a couple of quotes that I like and then we can discuss them so I'm gonna be quoting you here.

00:59:00   So the first one is "You get used to the size fast. After a week using the iPad Pro,

00:59:05   I dropped my iPad Air 2 down onto my trusty old origami workstation and just started to laugh.

00:59:10   It's like a tiny baby iPad. On a tabletop or other workspace, the size of the iPad Pro's screen

00:59:16   really shines." This to me is just like what it was like when I switched to the 6 Plus.

00:59:24   Yeah. So you get used to the size and then it's like this is

00:59:31   normal. I mean and I have an iPad Air 2 here as well with me sitting on the desk

00:59:36   and it's like a mini and Edina uses a mini and I think that thing is

00:59:40   hilarious when I see it now. I know right? It's like why do you even

00:59:45   exist mini? You're so small. It puts it in perspective.

00:59:52   it's yeah it is there's there's got to be some law that has is named after somebody that's the law

00:59:59   of the large it's the law of large displays that the larger a display you get the more

01:00:04   unacceptable like i used an 11-inch macbook air as my main computer for so long and i've used the

01:00:10   27-inch imac for a year and now and people are always asking don't doesn't the 11-inch air feel

01:00:15   cramped? No, it's fine, it's great. Now it feels cramped because I'm used to the bigger

01:00:22   screen and the iPad is kind of like that. I mean, I really expected that when I dropped

01:00:27   the iPad Air down on the origami workstation that I'd be like, "Oh yeah, see, this is fine

01:00:30   with the software keyboard slid away. This is totally fine." And it's fine, but I also

01:00:36   laughed and went, "Oh, look at you, you little baby iPad," because it is dramatically smaller

01:00:43   than the Pro. It is a huge difference.

01:00:48   And I mean, I love the size of the iPad Pro and I know that you know, you talk about in

01:00:55   the review the places where you use it and kind of saying that in bed for you and that

01:00:59   kind of stuff it doesn't work but for me it does. I'm very happy with it. It's obviously

01:01:04   not the easiest. I mean if you're going to talk about what's the best iPad to use from

01:01:08   a comfortable perspective when you're laying in bed, it's always the mini because the mini

01:01:11   you could throw anything around, there's nothing to it. But you know a lot of

01:01:15   devices like you have to accept some kinds of trade-offs and for me it's like

01:01:19   yeah the iPad Pro maybe isn't as comfortable when I'm sitting in bed but

01:01:23   I love it everywhere like it's fantastic for me it just really really works it's

01:01:27   like yeah okay maybe it's a little bit less comfortable to hold maybe I have to

01:01:30   somehow change the way that I'm sitting or laying when I'm looking at this

01:01:34   device but it really works for me and I really love it for that. It's like

01:01:38   carrying a clipboard and you gotta be kind of accepting that it's like carrying a clipboard

01:01:43   and when I wake up in the morning and I'm checking Twitter while I'm kind of basically

01:01:47   laying down it's not the best. It's not the best ergonomics for me. Sitting up, I don't

01:01:53   have a problem with it. Standing up or at a desk or something it works great but in

01:01:59   that more reclined kind of position it doesn't, you know, it's not my favorite.

01:02:04   I mean, I get that. I totally get why you would feel that way about it. I understand

01:02:10   why many people would, but it works well enough for me that I'm happy with it. One thing that

01:02:15   I'm not happy about, which I'll have a quote from your review, fuzzy graphics and a keyboard

01:02:20   that's hard to type on. This is one of the worst parts about the upscale app problem

01:02:25   that we have on the Pro.

01:02:26   Yeah. Yeah. There's just a lot of apps that haven't been updated for it yet. And I'm a

01:02:31   a little surprised, but this happened with—I launched an app on my iPhone the other day

01:02:36   that is still upscaled, the iPhone 5, and that's not good. And we still have some, and

01:02:43   it is frustrating, and those all need to get updated, because that is one of the problems

01:02:48   that we have with the—you get the weird software keyboard that's the upscaled software

01:02:54   keyboard, so now you've got two different software keyboards depending on the context,

01:02:57   is something that iPhone users know from the transition to the 6 and the 6 Plus, where

01:03:01   you would get—some apps would open, and you're like, "Why is this keyboard different?"

01:03:05   And the answer is, "Because it's an upscaled iPhone 5 keyboard." And now that is happening

01:03:09   on the Pro, there are upscaled apps from the iPad that—and it's no good. And everything's

01:03:15   a little bit fuzzy. And there are a lot of apps that are like that, and it's just—it'll

01:03:21   get better over time, but right now it is a problem.

01:03:24   - I also like this part where you're comparing the iPads.

01:03:27   What's more, the iPad Pro doesn't need to be

01:03:29   for a broad category of users.

01:03:31   It's not the iPad just one of three different models,

01:03:34   each with different characteristics.

01:03:36   For most people, the iPad Air 2 is probably the best choice,

01:03:39   but that's not a knock on the iPad Pro.

01:03:41   It costs more and gives you more,

01:03:42   and if you want more, it's the one for you.

01:03:44   - Yeah, this is, maybe this is my pet theory,

01:03:48   but I feel like the burden is off of a lot of Apple products

01:03:52   once they're part of a family,

01:03:53   And I really felt this when the iPad mini

01:03:57   didn't have to be the iPad.

01:03:59   It was the iPad mini.

01:04:01   It was like another iPad.

01:04:03   And the iPhone 6 Plus doesn't need to be the iPhone.

01:04:07   It needs to be an option for iPhone buyers

01:04:10   because there's also the iPhone 6

01:04:11   and the older models that are also out there.

01:04:13   And if they added a smaller iPhone,

01:04:16   an updated version of the smaller size,

01:04:17   it would be the same deal.

01:04:18   It would be an iPhone that you can get.

01:04:20   And I think that it used to be the iPhone

01:04:23   and the iPad, and there's a whole lot more burden, I think, on that product, because

01:04:26   it needs to serve everybody that Apple's trying to reach in that market. And the iPad Pro

01:04:30   doesn't need to do that. The iPad Pro is unabashedly a big iPad, and if you don't want it, it's

01:04:35   not like there isn't another iPad for you to buy. And I think that's a good place for

01:04:40   Apple to be, and I think it's a good place for a product to be. That's one of the things

01:04:43   I loved about the first iPad mini, is that it was allowed to be itself, and it didn't

01:04:50   have to feel the burden and be compromised in a lot of ways so that

01:04:53   everybody would want it because it wasn't made for everybody.

01:04:57   And then this was your kind of conclusion and you mentioned this a little bit but I want to read this

01:05:02   part and then talk another part about this Frankenstein product and that's why

01:05:07   I can't help but ask myself if Apple made a retina MacBook whose screen

01:05:12   popped off and became an iPad would I buy it? It seems like such a Frankenstein

01:05:15   product so inelegant a concept and so clearly not the way the world is going

01:05:19   And yet I would be tempted, not because it's a bold direction forward, but because it's

01:05:23   a compromise that grants me some comfort in a time of change.

01:05:27   The iPad Pro does not exist to give comfort to Mac users."

01:05:31   This combined with that piece that you mentioned that you wrote last week, I get a feeling

01:05:37   of nervousness from you that the computing landscape is changing underneath you and there's

01:05:43   kind of nothing you can do about it whether you like it or not.

01:05:47   I wouldn't say it that way.

01:05:49   It is interesting because Gruber's review ends with a similar statement of like, it's

01:05:53   not for me, but I am open to the possibility that I'm a dinosaur, right? Which is something

01:05:59   I say in the new tricks for old dogs, right?

01:06:01   - Steven also wrote a thing on 512, effectively the same kind of idea, where you all sound

01:06:07   really scared.

01:06:10   - That's not it. I think it's being, I think you need to be able to identify in yourself

01:06:17   your own biases and lay them out there and be able to think beyond them. And I suspect,

01:06:23   and I think that Steven and John writing similar things also suspect this, I suspect that a

01:06:32   lot of the people whose reaction to something like the iPad Pro is, "It's stupid, it's not

01:06:37   a computer, you can't use it to get real work done, why are they bothering? It's a waste

01:06:41   of time, I suspect that those are people who just don't want to accept that for some people,

01:06:52   the touchscreen computing metaphor is what computers are going to be.

01:06:57   And that they may have, they may, the thing that they think of as how you interact with

01:07:03   computers is now very clearly part of an era and eras have ends and they aren't finite

01:07:11   like they aren't sharp ends, they're trail off ends,

01:07:15   but it happens just like it happened with going

01:07:18   from command lines to GUIs, it happens.

01:07:21   And so I think step one is acknowledging that it's true,

01:07:26   right, acknowledging that this is a thing that's happening.

01:07:29   And I have no fear about it.

01:07:32   This is about acknowledging the reality of it.

01:07:36   So step one is saying you can work on iOS.

01:07:40   and that the reasons that you won't work on iOS

01:07:43   are more to do with you and your preferences.

01:07:46   And again, that's not judgmental,

01:07:48   more to do with how you want to work

01:07:50   than it is about the device.

01:07:53   And I think that's important,

01:07:54   especially if you're somebody who writes about technology,

01:07:57   I think you need to be able to say that

01:07:59   and understand that.

01:08:01   Now, step two is also being flexible enough

01:08:03   to try and change and see what it's like.

01:08:07   And it may not all work for you,

01:08:08   but being able to make those judgments

01:08:11   and see what it's like gives you the flexibility

01:08:14   to communicate that to other people.

01:08:16   So that, I think that's the next step, but part,

01:08:18   but to get there,

01:08:19   I have to make the acknowledgement within myself

01:08:21   that I have a bias here,

01:08:23   which is that I've been using computers like the Mac.

01:08:26   I've been using the Mac for 26 years.

01:08:28   And of course, it's gonna be hard to switch

01:08:31   to something like iOS for productivity stuff

01:08:34   that I think of as computery stuff.

01:08:36   So step one is to say it is,

01:08:38   and then you can decide whether you wanna make that effort

01:08:40   or not.

01:08:41   I don't wanna make that effort to permanently switch

01:08:44   because I don't see the need to do that

01:08:47   as anything other than a stunt,

01:08:48   but to be able to mode switch,

01:08:50   to be able to not have to carry around a MacBook Air

01:08:53   when I wanna do work elsewhere,

01:08:55   but just carry around an iPad, that I see benefits in.

01:08:59   So, and I feel like the platform is robust enough

01:09:01   that you can do it, even if I don't have the iPad Pro,

01:09:04   even I have the Air 2 and an external keyboard.

01:09:06   But yeah, I think it's fair,

01:09:10   and I mentioned this earlier

01:09:12   when I picked up my review unit at Apple

01:09:13   and got my briefing,

01:09:15   one of the things that they said in the briefing,

01:09:16   and it's all kind of backgroundy,

01:09:18   so I'm not gonna quote them directly,

01:09:19   but I got this vibe from them about the keyboard,

01:09:23   the smart keyboard,

01:09:24   that it was almost a legacy product.

01:09:27   And that was a moment where I thought,

01:09:28   oh, huh, interesting.

01:09:31   Like, is a hardware keyboard a legacy technology?

01:09:36   (laughing)

01:09:37   That's crazy to me.

01:09:39   And yet I think it's worth thinking about that.

01:09:42   And considering is a hardware keyboard

01:09:45   and is a mouse cursor tracking across a screen

01:09:50   an old metaphor that is being supplanted.

01:09:53   And if it is, what's new and how does the new stuff work?

01:09:57   Because the work, you know,

01:09:58   people are still gonna need to get their jobs done.

01:10:00   It's just, you know, the tools that are,

01:10:03   the tools of choice for some people have changed.

01:10:05   I don't know, but that's where it comes for me. There's no fear or concern, and change

01:10:14   doesn't particularly bother me. I think you need to call it what it is and not pretend

01:10:21   that it's not an aspect of anything that somebody who's been writing about computers for a long

01:10:26   time, you know, it's part of their frame of reference. And the iPad Pro doesn't care,

01:10:32   right? That's the last line there. The iPad Pro doesn't care. It is not like the surface.

01:10:37   The surface is meant to make PC users feel better about having a tablet. The iPad Pro

01:10:41   doesn't care.

01:10:42   Yeah, so screw you buddy, this is my time.

01:10:44   Yeah.

01:10:45   Like I look at all of this and I feel like it's safe to say now that the personal computer's

01:10:50   time has peaked and it's changing.

01:10:54   Well look at the, I mean, take the tablet out of the equation for a minute and look

01:11:00   at smartphone numbers and computer numbers, PC numbers. It already peaked. It's been off

01:11:09   the peak for a while now. The PC market shrinks and the smartphone market is insanely growing.

01:11:15   So you know, and we can, the tablet is a tweener and it's interesting, but it's already happened.

01:11:23   People interact with the internet and use technology to do what we consider computer

01:11:26   things with smartphones and other devices too, but with smartphones. That is the computer

01:11:33   now. And presumably all future or many future computing device innovations are going to

01:11:41   be keying off the smartphone because it's the metaphor now in a way that Windows, you

01:11:49   know, that the Mac led to Windows 95 and the suddenly that GUI Mac style GUI was everywhere.

01:11:55   that was the metaphor. The smartphone is the metaphor now and the iPad is a

01:11:59   computer that uses the smartphone metaphor basically. Man, I am very excited

01:12:08   about this product. I wished I could take all of my work to it, right? I can't. I can.

01:12:12   I can do the podcast stuff on it if I want to jump through a lot of hoops but

01:12:16   I'm not ready to do that yet but I see the future of it and I know how happy I

01:12:21   I am using this device for the majority of things.

01:12:24   Like today, I've been working all day today.

01:12:27   I sat down at my iMac just as we were about

01:12:29   to start recording the show, but I've been working all day

01:12:31   and I've been working on my iPad Pro.

01:12:33   - Well, like I said, I think people get obsessed

01:12:35   about this idea of switching, like Federico,

01:12:37   'cause Federico is the switcher, right?

01:12:39   He has switched.

01:12:40   But I think that, you know,

01:12:42   I think that there's context switching.

01:12:43   I think the idea that you might have a computer

01:12:46   that you use, like I stopped,

01:12:48   when I set up this office, I stop working on my Mac laptop in the house. I very rarely

01:12:55   bring my laptop, my MacBook Air, into the house. It basically sits behind me, and I

01:13:00   bring it when I go out somewhere where I need to use the computer or I travel. It gets very

01:13:05   little use now. And that's in contrast to even when I worked at IDG, and I would bring

01:13:11   the laptop home and I would have it and I would do my computery things. Now that I've

01:13:15   I've got the desktop, I've got like, if I wanna do work in the Mac framework, I do it

01:13:19   here at my desk in the office. In the house, it's the iPad or iPhone, but usually the iPad.

01:13:26   And so that's what I start to think about is maybe the iPad is now my thing that I do

01:13:33   everything I'm gonna do productively that is out of the desk where I'm sitting right

01:13:38   now. And if I go to my mom's house in Phoenix to visit her for a few days, I don't bring

01:13:43   a computer, a Mac, I don't bring a MacBook Air, I bring my iPad because I'm out of the

01:13:48   house and that's the hump that I'm getting over is not can I switch entirely to the iPad,

01:13:56   it's just can I use it when I'm away from my Mac and that's a lower bar.

01:14:01   Should we take a break, do some Ask Upgrade? Yeah, let's do it.

01:14:07   This week's episode is also brought to you by Hover, the best way to buy and manage domain

01:14:12   I love hover whenever I need something on the web, which is a lot of stuff really, you know

01:14:16   Lots of things need websites these days. You need a domain name

01:14:19   It's one of the most important things if you're coming up with a name for a new project or you have a name in mind

01:14:24   In today's world you need to make sure that that domain is available

01:14:28   It's like that's the way people are gonna find you they can open their web browser

01:14:31   They're gonna they're gonna type the name of your company in this is what hover will help you secure

01:14:35   You can go to hover.com. You can have a little search you can search keywords

01:14:38   you can search for full domains and they'll show you what's available and

01:14:41   they have all of the TLDs you'd expect and these are like you know your

01:14:44   .coms.co.net, .co.uk. They have all the new ones as well

01:14:48   .limo, .diamond etc etc and they have great options on all of them for example

01:14:53   their .com domain start at $12.99. If it's available it's very simple just a

01:14:57   few clicks you'll own that domain name. Hover can also help do an auctioning

01:15:02   process so they can if somebody owns the domain Hover can help you acquire it if

01:15:06   it's for sale and also if it's just completely taken they won't be able to

01:15:10   make suggestions for you they can show you what they have and they can give you

01:15:13   they give some tweaks on the new wording for you and maybe help spark another

01:15:17   idea for you to get that domain that you want. Once you actually go through and

01:15:21   purchase domains which is super easy it's just a few clicks they give whois

01:15:24   privacy for free with all the domains that support it so it keeps your

01:15:26   personal information private which is exactly what you would want. You have

01:15:31   fantastic customer support all times they have great guides on their website

01:15:34   They have fantastic email support and they have incredible no hold, no wait, no transfer,

01:15:38   telephone support as well.

01:15:40   Hover have a valet service where they'll switch all of your domains from your previous provider

01:15:45   to Hover for you completely for free no matter how many domains you have.

01:15:49   They have Hover Connect which is one of my favorite new things at Hover where they'll

01:15:52   make it super easy to get your new domain that you just purchased really easily.

01:15:56   Of course, connected with the website or service that you want to connect it to.

01:15:59   So let's say for example you want to set it up with your Shopify account or your Squarespace

01:16:02   page or your tumblr page, you just go into your domain admin panel at hover, you just

01:16:07   select which service they use and they will amend automatically all of the DNS records

01:16:11   for you, you don't need to be copying and pasting crazy stuff to get it all set up.

01:16:15   Hover have thought of everything, they make it all super simple and they back it up with

01:16:18   their excellent support.

01:16:19   So go to hover.com and try them out, they should be the place that you're buying your

01:16:23   domain names from.

01:16:24   You'll want to use the code magic at checkout and you'll get 10% off your first purchase

01:16:28   over at hover.com and show your support for this show and all of Relay FM. That's the

01:16:33   promo code "magic" and you'll get 10% off your first purchase. Thank you so much to

01:16:37   hover.com for their support of this show. So should we do some Ask Upgrade?

01:16:43   Let's do it.

01:16:44   We didn't do any last week so I'm sure that people have been clamoring for the only sound

01:16:50   that could indicate that Ask Upgrade is occurring, Jason.

01:16:54   Well, it would be a sound of lasers, although we got somebody to complain that we should

01:16:58   use the sound of real lasers, to which I would say I think actual laser sound effects would

01:17:03   be more annoying to more people than us simply saying, "Ask, upgrade!"

01:17:08   It's the only way to do it.

01:17:10   I would like to know, and this is an iPad Pro related question, "I travel a lot for

01:17:14   business and I'm thinking about getting an iPad Pro to replace my laptop.

01:17:17   It would be thrown in a bag and into luggage bins, etc. during my travel.

01:17:21   Do I have to worry about the ruggedness of the iPad Pro?"

01:17:24   So for me, I think one of the key things you have to remember is that this device is basically

01:17:29   just a screen.

01:17:31   Like a laptop kind of protects itself by closing, so like all of the stuff that could easily

01:17:36   get broken is contained within itself, right?

01:17:38   The keyboard and the screen.

01:17:40   So I think you've got to get a good case, a nice rugged case, and you'll be fine.

01:17:44   I have a smart cover on mine.

01:17:45   You can pay an incredible amount of money to get the smart case, which goes in the back

01:17:49   as well.

01:17:50   I don't know just how good at protecting things they are,

01:17:53   but I've always had smart covers on my iPads

01:17:56   and they've always been fine.

01:17:57   But of course, this thing is bigger.

01:17:58   It's probably easier to break because of its size.

01:18:01   But I, you know, it's pretty tough.

01:18:05   - It's pretty rigid in a way that laptop screens aren't

01:18:08   because laptop screens, yeah, when you close them,

01:18:10   they're also sort of protected by the rigidity

01:18:13   of the base of the laptop.

01:18:14   And here, the whole, it's an iPad, it feels like an iPad.

01:18:18   It's got that aluminum back.

01:18:19   it's pretty strong, but you wanna cover the screen

01:18:22   so that the screen is protected.

01:18:24   And yeah, I've just used a smart cover on all of my iPads.

01:18:27   But if you really are gonna be hard on it,

01:18:30   then I would say try to get another,

01:18:31   something more rugged, something, you know,

01:18:35   but that's fine.

01:18:36   I think it'll be fine as long as it's in a nice case.

01:18:38   The question is what kind of cases

01:18:39   are out there right now for the iPad Pro?

01:18:41   - I don't think there are many.

01:18:42   - You may have to wait a little bit,

01:18:44   but I think it'll be fine as long as you get a case for it.

01:18:47   - Yep, I completely agree.

01:18:49   Mickey would like to know, "Should I choose Apple's keyboard cover or the Logitech Create?"

01:18:53   If you actually had any time with Logitech Create.

01:18:55   None.

01:18:56   None.

01:18:57   Haven't even seen it.

01:18:58   Haven't touched it.

01:18:59   So basically, I've spoke to a few different people about this and everyone seems to say

01:19:02   the same thing.

01:19:03   If you want a good cover that's a keyboard, go for the smart keyboard.

01:19:07   If you want a good keyboard that you can put on your iPad, go for the Logitech Create.

01:19:11   Yeah, but Logitech Create, I mean, it's sort of, you snap your iPad into it.

01:19:14   So you're basically turning your iPad into a laptop by snapping it in.

01:19:17   And so, and I mentioned this in my review,

01:19:20   I think unless you're somebody who really needs

01:19:23   that combination of, I've always got my keyboard with me

01:19:27   and it's ready to go at a moment's notice.

01:19:29   If you can slip a Bluetooth keyboard in a bag somewhere

01:19:34   and bring it out when you need it

01:19:36   and not have to walk around,

01:19:38   I mean, that's what the smart keyboard

01:19:40   and I think the Logitech Create keyboards are good for

01:19:42   is like, you're sort of treating it like a laptop.

01:19:44   You always wanna have your keyboard with you.

01:19:46   but I don't generally use my iPad that way.

01:19:49   And so you can save a lot of money

01:19:51   and get a better keyboard by buying a Bluetooth keyboard

01:19:55   and pairing it.

01:19:56   And yeah, you have to charge it or change the batteries,

01:19:58   but pairing it with your iPad

01:20:00   and then getting something like a smart cover

01:20:03   that you can use as a stand.

01:20:05   I think in a lot of contexts,

01:20:07   that is a perfectly reasonable way to use even the iPad Pro.

01:20:10   And it should be part of the conversation.

01:20:12   You should think about whether you really need

01:20:15   one of these two accessories, just because they're made for the iPad Pro, that's not

01:20:18   enough of a reason. You need to, you know, will I use them in a way that makes it necessary

01:20:24   that I use them.

01:20:27   Luca would like to know how we use Slack at Relay FM and why do we prefer it to iMessage

01:20:32   or other messaging platforms. So the reason that I love Slack over anything else is in

01:20:38   this one application, I have all types of communication with people. So we have instant

01:20:44   So like one-on-one conversations like me and Jason may have it

01:20:47   We're just chatting about stuff or maybe we're setting up stuff for a show. We can have instant messages like that

01:20:51   We have group chats. So like for connected we have a connected like a private connected group

01:20:56   It's me Federico and Steven we talk as a three

01:20:59   We talk about things as a three as friends and also talk about things as you know for the show for business

01:21:05   Then we have like official business communication channels

01:21:08   Which have like everybody in them and we want to say as a business we are doing this

01:21:12   we want you to know about this, you should look at this, right? We have

01:21:15   official business communication we can do there. We have massive group chats,

01:21:19   like we have the general room that all slacks have, ours has like 30

01:21:23   people in it, and people just talking about whatever, they could be talking

01:21:27   about tech, they could be talking about video games, they could be talking about pens and pencils,

01:21:30   no matter whoever may like that or may not, it's all going in there and there's

01:21:34   nothing anybody can do about it. Sorry Casey. Sorry Casey, it's just the way it is.

01:21:39   and sorry Jason because we have in pension today you did that but that's it

01:21:43   right it's just a big chat room that everyone's in so it's basically it's we

01:21:47   have all of these different types of communication all in one place it's all

01:21:51   searchable it's all archived so in case we need it for later it stops people

01:21:56   from having conversations in email and then they get lost and then you continue

01:22:00   in IM like it's just a way of keeping all of our communication in one place

01:22:04   with and everybody just goes to that place when they want to talk to somebody

01:22:07   in our company. It's very, very cool for that. I love it.

01:22:11   I mean, the small group conversations could be done in something like

01:22:15   iMessage. That would be fine, but the nice thing about about Slack is that

01:22:21   you've got the general group too, so you've got a whole bunch of people who

01:22:24   are able to have conversations, and then you can set up interest channels and you

01:22:27   can set up private groups of different sizes, and it's all in one place. So

01:22:33   So I think that's the advantage there. Also, cross-platform, I mean, our friends, the hosts

01:22:39   of the material podcast on Relay cannot read those iMessages on their phones, right?

01:22:45   >> I'm not sure they can get email on their Android phones either, right?

01:22:49   >> Yeah, can they?

01:22:50   >> It's only the Gmail, they don't get email.

01:22:52   >> Oh, interesting.

01:22:53   >> It's a different letter, I think.

01:22:54   >> Yeah, I'm sure that's accurate.

01:22:56   >> Mm-hmm, email, Jason.

01:22:59   Lex Friedman posted a thing the other day about how many different ways people can get

01:23:04   in touch with him. And I replied to him. I sent him a Slack message on the incomparable

01:23:09   Slack. I sent him an iMessage. I sent him an AOL Instant Messenger IM. I sent him a

01:23:13   Google Talk message and I sent him a Facebook message, all saying the same thing as a reply.

01:23:22   Because it's true, it could be everywhere. But that's the nice thing about Slack is that

01:23:26   you set these groups up for people who are working together on project or other, and

01:23:29   it forms like a little mini community, and then you've also got your private messaging

01:23:32   that's kind of built in. And if it was just private messaging or just the group chat room,

01:23:36   I think it would be less effective. But once, you know, everybody knows to sort of like

01:23:39   keep an eye on Slack, then it becomes easier to get their direct attention in Slack by

01:23:45   a direct message in a way. Like I don't have the iMessage addresses of a lot of the people

01:23:51   that I work with, but I don't need it because I can just see their name in Slack and send

01:23:56   them a message or a couple names. And that's been very effective, actually. So I use iMessage

01:24:02   a lot less now.

01:24:04   >> Joshua would like to know, "What do you think of using SoundCloud for podcast hosting?

01:24:08   I'm using Squarespace right now. What better stats?" Now, I would say I have never used

01:24:13   SoundCloud and I know that Jason has, so I'll get his input on the actual service itself.

01:24:18   I would say if you have a podcast you should be using some sort of service that has statistics.

01:24:23   Squarespace is great for creating websites around podcasts and you can host your stuff

01:24:27   there and it's fine, but you don't actually get any statistics for the uploads of the

01:24:31   files and the downloads of the files, you don't get any of that.

01:24:34   So I always say you should use a third party in that scenario.

01:24:38   I use Libsyn, we use Libsyn at Relay FM, they've been around forever and their statistics are

01:24:44   well trusted.

01:24:45   loads of other great services. There's one that I really like as well called

01:24:48   Simplecast, which also creates really good-looking websites as well for you, so

01:24:53   you can check those guys out. But there is of course SoundCloud, which I know

01:24:56   that you've used, Jason. Yeah, SoundCloud, you know, they've been,

01:25:01   they've added podcast functionality, but their goal is to sort of be the YouTube

01:25:06   of audio, so that they try to drive people to the website. So you can post

01:25:09   sounds on a SoundCloud account that's got the premium version that has

01:25:14   podcasting built in and it'll generate a feed. I don't like SoundCloud because

01:25:20   their attitude, they are very reluctant to share the mp3 file with you. There

01:25:26   are ways to get it but like the default is they want you to, if you're seeing a

01:25:33   podcast on the web, they want you to use their player to play it. They don't want

01:25:37   to provide you with like a download URL which makes it really frustrating if you

01:25:40   want to use something like Huffduffer or you just want to download the file for

01:25:43   later or most importantly, sometimes there's a download button. So that's okay. But mostly

01:25:48   like the download button generates a download URL that doesn't seem to be the permanent

01:25:53   download URL. So if you want to link to an MP3 on SoundCloud, they don't want to let

01:25:56   you do it. If you want to put it in a different RSS feed, they don't want to let you do it.

01:26:00   It's kind of like they want to be a podcast citizen, but they also want the control and

01:26:06   I don't love it. And so if you like SoundCloud and it works for you, it's super easy. We

01:26:10   to use it for some stuff for Macworld and for the incomparable, but at this point I'm

01:26:14   using Libsyn, and it's pretty cheap for the basic plan, and I think that's the--and it's

01:26:21   got stats. So I think for most people that's what I recommend at this point is Libsyn,

01:26:27   because you can start off with a very cheap plan, and you do have to pay, but it's probably

01:26:33   not a lot of money, you know, whatever it is, five bucks, eight bucks a month or something

01:26:37   like that.

01:26:38   I recommend the $20 a month plan. I know that obviously you're getting into an amount of

01:26:42   money there, but the $20 a month plan gives you advanced statistics, which it doesn't

01:26:48   let you know a lot of stuff, but you can get geographical breakdown, technology breakdown

01:26:52   so you can see what apps people are listening in and stuff like that. I like it for that.

01:26:56   You can definitely go with a cheaper plan than that.

01:26:58   You can start with $5, and the way it works is it's about how your upload is. So if you've

01:27:03   got a short podcast or you only have a couple podcasts a month, the $5 plan, it's $50 a

01:27:08   megs in podcast files and for $15 a month it's 250 megs which is perfect for

01:27:13   like a weekly podcast.

01:27:14   Definitely.

01:27:16   Right so that's Ask Upgrade this week. So this is usually where the episode will end.

01:27:20   However we have of course a Myke at the Movies week so we have a special segment

01:27:24   and we're about to start talking about the "Sure Thing" which is our Myke at the

01:27:29   Movies pick for this week. But Myke at the Movies this time is brought to you

01:27:33   by our friends over at Igloo who give you the internet you'll actually like.

01:27:36   Now we're about to start talking about like an 80s movie and some internets look like

01:27:41   that they were made in the 80s right they were made in the 90s they were made in a time

01:27:45   where the internet was a very very different functioning and looking thing and I remember

01:27:51   the internet that I used to use in my old corporate job was very much like this.

01:27:56   It felt very much at home and Internet Explorer right maybe tells you all you need to know

01:28:00   that was where it did its best.

01:28:03   But this isn't what igloo makes. Igloo make a great product which feels like it was made

01:28:07   in the internet world of 2015. It is full of responsive design and beautiful little

01:28:13   touches throughout. Like for example they have status update stuff. So like a little

01:28:17   microblog or a little mini twitter all inside of your own igloo so you can keep everybody

01:28:21   up to date with what you're working on. You can chat, they have commenting on all of their

01:28:25   stuff, you can upload images and you can like stuff. Like it's all very internet of now,

01:28:30   right? It feels like the way it should. And you're able to access your igloo from any

01:28:35   device no matter where you are as long as you have a connection to the internet. It's

01:28:39   going to look and feel exactly as you want because you can customize it, you can set

01:28:42   up all of the branding and the coloring to feel just right. You can set up different

01:28:46   functionality for different groups and teams. They also have their own document previewing

01:28:50   engine as well so you can collaborate on stuff together. You can also see who has read certain

01:28:55   documents as well. So you'll be able to make sure that everybody is on the same page. They

01:29:00   They have fantastic security stuff, 256 bit encryption, single sign on, active directory

01:29:04   integrations and so much more.

01:29:06   They integrate with services like Box, Google Drive and Dropbox.

01:29:09   It is exactly as you would want from a product like this.

01:29:13   It's time to break away from the internet you hate, the internet that drives you crazy

01:29:16   every day.

01:29:17   You want to go and sign up for igloo right now and you can try it out for free for any

01:29:21   team of up to 10 people for as long as you want so you can get a real good sense as if

01:29:25   this is the right fit for your team.

01:29:27   Go and find out more and sign up today.

01:29:29   goo-software.com/upgrade.

01:29:32   Thank you so much to Igloo for supporting this show

01:29:34   and Real AFM.

01:29:35   So, Jason, "The Sure Thing" is our pick today.

01:29:41   - It is.

01:29:42   - My first comment about "The Sure Thing"

01:29:45   is that it is impossible to find.

01:29:47   It is not available for streaming or purchasing online.

01:29:51   - Wow.

01:29:52   - So I went into a bit of a panic mode over the weekend

01:29:56   as I could not find this movie.

01:29:58   I have a theory, also speaking of Slack,

01:30:03   our friend Casey had a file in the Slack of this movie.

01:30:07   - Did he? I wouldn't know.

01:30:09   - Yeah, it's available digitally

01:30:11   in the secret Slack channel about this movie.

01:30:14   Yeah, I have a theory about it,

01:30:18   which is that the music in it has made it difficult to,

01:30:26   So it's available, like the DVD is a Shout Factory DVD

01:30:30   and a lot of the Shout Factory stuff,

01:30:32   it's higher priced than it's like, it lists at $25.

01:30:35   It's higher priced.

01:30:36   And they do that because they're,

01:30:38   the main company doesn't wanna release it

01:30:42   because it's gonna be too much to get the music rights.

01:30:45   And then Shout Factory basically says,

01:30:46   "Okay, we will clear all the music rights

01:30:47   and release it at a higher price and a lower volume

01:30:51   for the people who really wanna see it."

01:30:52   Because the soundtrack to The Sure Thing is staggering.

01:30:55   In fact, I think it seems much more impressive now

01:30:59   as a representative of the '80s than it did at the time.

01:31:04   It feels like songs selected for a movie we'd make today

01:31:10   set in the '80s.

01:31:11   Like, well, we gotta have a song by these people

01:31:14   and that song is very '80s and all of that,

01:31:16   but it's just the songs they pick for this movie.

01:31:18   By the way, the musical supervisor I looked up

01:31:20   while I was watching it for this movie

01:31:22   is also the musical supervisor for "Real Genius."

01:31:24   So it's the same person picking the songs for both, which also made me laugh.

01:31:28   But it's a very 80s soundtrack and my guess is that the music rights are probably very

01:31:34   expensive and that may be why it's not available streaming.

01:31:38   That is a good theory.

01:31:39   I like that theory.

01:31:40   There is a lot of music throughout this.

01:31:43   When the movie opens, it opens very 80s.

01:31:46   It has a very 80s song and has this beautiful 80s font, right?

01:31:52   all like fluorescent, streaking across the screen, right? You would know this if you could find the movie, right?

01:31:59   Did you end up seeing the movie, Myke? Yes, luckily I did. It stumbled upon me somehow. Somehow. I just

01:32:07   want to mention about the music. Rod Stewart, Kiwi Lewis and the News, Sammy Hagar, Quiet Riot, John

01:32:13   John Waite, Jay Giles' band, the Eagles, or sorry, Eagles, The Cars, Wang Chung, Lionel

01:32:21   Ritchie and Peter Wolf. So it is a, and it's Lights Out by Peter Wolf. So it is a super

01:32:28   uber 80s kind of soundtrack. But I could also see why that might be very expensive if they

01:32:33   didn't have all the, if they had to re-license all that music for streaming at home video.

01:32:38   So the only thing that I knew about this movie or believe that I knew about this movie is

01:32:42   you referred to it last week as a sex comedy. So my question before going into this was,

01:32:47   is this real genius or is this American Pie? I will find out.

01:32:51   - Yeah, and I think the reality is it is like some of the other movies that we've watched,

01:32:59   including Say Anything, it is a movie that wants you to think that it's a

01:33:06   horny teen sex comedy sort of movie when it's not.

01:33:10   Yes, that I will get to this a little bit later on this put a pin in that for now

01:33:14   But this one tries harder than say anything does right say anything doesn't really they have the one party scene

01:33:20   But say anything really doesn't get too far down the road or sure thing spends a good 25 minutes

01:33:26   Really wanting you to think that this is all about a couple of guys who want to get laid

01:33:31   Yeah, and the time you realize so the sure thing is

01:33:35   The show character the person that the girl who is a sure thing like that

01:33:40   We're gonna get our main character junkie sack who plays a character called Gib

01:33:44   Walter Gibson is gonna go to his friends college in California because there is this girl there who is a sure thing for him

01:33:51   Like his friend Anthony Edwards from ER and Top Gun

01:33:55   very young as his friend the dude in going to college in California and

01:34:00   And Nicolette Sheridan, who went on to be on like "Knots Landing" and she did a whole bunch of other things.

01:34:05   And her role is credited in the credits as the sure thing. That is who she is. She never has a name.

01:34:13   She's blonde and beautiful and sits out on the beach and appears in the various fantasy sequences of John Cusack's gib.

01:34:22   But before we even finish the credits, there was something that I noticed that really made me smile.

01:34:26   executive producer Henry Winkler. Yes. Where did they come from? So it's a funny thing about what

01:34:35   Henry Winkler did sort of post Fonz which was get into producing and he produced a bunch of movies

01:34:45   that would surprise you and TV series. I believe he was one of the producers on MacGyver, the TV

01:34:50   series as well. But he did this film and there was another big movie that he's listed as

01:35:00   a producer on. God, what is it? Anyway, yeah, he had a whole--he also directed. He directed

01:35:10   some movies and he produced some movies. It was very much his, "Okay, I've been a sitcom

01:35:14   star on Happy Days and now I want to do some other things." And so he produced and directed

01:35:19   a bunch of stuff so he is listed as one of the executive producers on the sure thing

01:35:23   I have no idea.

01:35:24   I'm looking at his IMDB page right now there's a ton of stuff like I was thinking oh I'll

01:35:31   just go and find out what that thing was I will be here all day.

01:35:34   Yeah oh yeah it's crazy the stuff that he's produced so I think that's part of the story

01:35:43   is that he did a whole bunch of sort of post fawns things but yeah he's listed as an executive

01:35:48   producer on Sure Thing. So I like that it kind of it starts off with Gibb. We

01:35:57   should say we should say this is directed by Rob Reiner who we've already seen

01:36:00   this is Spinal Tap and and the Princess Bride from and then stars John Cusack who

01:36:05   we've already seen with Say Anything. So it starts off Cusack is giving his

01:36:10   chat up line to a girl and it's about space and I wonder if this was

01:36:14   potential for why you love this movie is that he uses space as a pickup line. He's so

01:36:18   bad at it. Yeah, it doesn't work. Consider the universe. He says with his high voice, he's 19

01:36:23   in this movie. Very young in this movie. He's four years younger than, this is four years before Say

01:36:27   Anything, and his voice hasn't dropped basically yet. And I like that the movie's set up really

01:36:35   well. Like, it begins at the ending for these two friends. They've just graduated high school and

01:36:41   they're about to go off to college. Like, that's, I really like that as the way that the movie begins

01:36:45   because it just puts a pin in where these people are in their lives. They don't do it

01:36:49   in a ham-fisted way, they don't do it with a lot of exposition. It's just a couple of

01:36:52   minutes and then they move on to the rest of the movie. And I think it sets it up really

01:36:56   nicely.

01:36:57   Did you notice something we talked about when we talked about Say Anything was that that's

01:37:01   a movie entirely set in a period which we rarely see in a film, which is the summer

01:37:05   after high school and before college. And I laughed when this movie starts in the same

01:37:10   place, which is graduation night, and scene two skips all the way to college. And I thought,

01:37:15   "Wow, say anything just happened in between those two scenes," because this movie's got

01:37:19   to--it's time to move on. The point is shorthand. They're in high school. It's all the expectations

01:37:23   of going off to college. There's that funny line where Anthony Edwards is trying to give

01:37:29   him a pep talk about how he's going to be more lucky with the ladies in college. He

01:37:34   said, "Forget about these high school girls. Pretty soon they'll all be college girls."

01:37:37   And he says, "But it's the same girls. They just go to college." And he says, "No, no,

01:37:40   no. They'll be college girls then. This dream that is nonsensical about it."

01:37:45   It's just so it's so naive and and funny and dumb and and then we cut to he's at an unspecified Northeastern University

01:37:52   So he's taken English and I really love his lecturer. Oh

01:37:57   Yeah, she is such a fantastic character. She's so full of life and fun

01:38:02   And I loved it like, you know

01:38:05   She's she wants them to express themselves more in their writing and she says stuff like sleep when you want to not when you think

01:38:11   you must make love in a hammock like it's like she's just saying all this

01:38:15   stuff like just prancing around the room. She's Swedish so she's got this accent so

01:38:19   you're like she's this vaguely European dynamic yeah mm-hmm and I really like

01:38:25   that I really like that a lot I also love the swim in pool monologue right so

01:38:30   as so at this point Gib has set his sights on Amanda that is who he is

01:38:37   really interested in and he's trying to get her to go on a date with him and she

01:38:43   is going for a swim in a pool and she's doing lengths and he's just walking up

01:38:47   and down the pool in increasing desperation of what like absolute

01:38:52   melodrama of why she should give him a shot and how it's like completely end

01:38:56   his life and then he jumps into the pool it's like would you save a drowning man

01:38:59   like it's all I really like that bit. It's Alison by the way. Alison sorry. You got

01:39:04   bad handwriting there, but we knew that.

01:39:06   I was trying to do it from memory. He didn't do a very good job.

01:39:10   Yeah, so yeah, he follows her. It's sweet. He fancies himself, I think, as a lot of—is

01:39:20   this in reality or not? But it's certainly in movies that a lot of teenage young men

01:39:24   fancy themselves powerful pickup artist type people where they're like, "Oh, I can get

01:39:31   the ladies to go out with me. I've got a line." You know, he's working on his lines and stuff

01:39:34   like that. You got to get some new material. And then with her, he has this whole scheme,

01:39:39   which is that he's going to get her to help him with his studying, his paper, because

01:39:48   he's got to rewrite this paper that he wrote about burning, about not burning the roof

01:39:52   of your mouth when you eat pizza. That is what his paper is about, by the way. And the

01:39:57   The moment, so she finally agrees.

01:40:00   And the moment that they sit down to work

01:40:02   on the paper seemingly, he's like,

01:40:03   let's get some air, let's get out of here.

01:40:05   It is the thinnest tissue paper sham.

01:40:10   It is just so, it made me laugh.

01:40:12   'Cause it's like, he doesn't even go through the motions

01:40:14   of like, we don't see that they've been working on it

01:40:16   now that they're leaving after the study session,

01:40:18   he's gonna ask her out.

01:40:19   He like, he can't wait.

01:40:21   He immediately is like, no, no, let's blow this off.

01:40:23   And actually go out on a date, which I didn't ask you on,

01:40:25   but now I'm gonna ask you one.

01:40:28   - I like that when she finally agrees

01:40:29   to go on a date with him,

01:40:31   they agree on a time and stuff

01:40:34   and Alison goes to walk out of the door

01:40:36   and Gib says, "Where?

01:40:38   Like, where shall I meet you?"

01:40:39   Like, this is one of my biggest pet peeves in movies

01:40:42   when people set up dates

01:40:43   and never arrange a location or a time.

01:40:45   - Yeah, or they'll be like,

01:40:47   "Yeah, I'll pick you up for lunch."

01:40:48   "All right, what?"

01:40:50   - Like, where are you?

01:40:51   Do you know where she lives?

01:40:52   Like, I like that they just put that on there.

01:40:54   like it really annoys me when people leave that out in movies it's like just

01:40:58   this ambiguous time and all location of where this date will occur yeah and then

01:41:03   you know he's kind of psyching himself up like in his dorm room and I really

01:41:07   like the scene where his friend is Jimbo is trying to like give him the lines to

01:41:13   use for the ladies like you know it is like real sensitive line I feel like

01:41:16   we've got his arm and that sort of stuff as he's giving him the the full patter

01:41:20   as it were. Which he uses many times throughout this movie on various ladies or at least tries

01:41:28   to.

01:41:29   Indeed, and we also at some point in here he also gets the letter from his friend who's

01:41:33   at, you know, UCLA or something like that. He's in college in Southern California telling

01:41:39   him about how amazing it is out there while it's just the brutal winter and it's getting

01:41:43   on toward Christmas and it's the brutal cold has come to the Northeast and his pal is just

01:41:49   in a like a parody of almost of what you'd expect because that's how I always viewed

01:41:57   it is that even though he goes there and it actually is this way but it is like the dream

01:42:02   Southern California college thing which is we don't really go to school and we hang out

01:42:06   on the beach and everybody's got there's a beach house and there's a pool and the beach

01:42:11   is over there and there are girls in bikinis and we're all just partying and drinking beer

01:42:16   and that's all we do all the time at Southern California University, which is not University

01:42:21   of Southern California, it's slightly less academic. Anyway.

01:42:26   And they have a phone call, don't they? Which I really like. So his friend, what was his

01:42:33   friend's name? Lance. Lance. They're having a phone call and Gib is like freezing in a

01:42:39   corridor and Lance is like walking outside by a pool in the sun and he's got a Hawaiian

01:42:43   shot on and there's girls playing volleyball and it's like it's just fantastic to just

01:42:48   watch this like night and day it's like hey it's amazing here and he's like these his

01:42:52   friends is is um has a lady in his room and there's various various sounds coming from

01:42:59   the room so he's just like completely shut out in this cold corridor listening to his

01:43:04   friend being like come on man there's this sure thing over here get your way to California

01:43:09   So they start the journey to California, right?

01:43:13   And he goes to like this board and it's like some ride?

01:43:16   What is that about?

01:43:17   What is going on?

01:43:18   - Okay, so yeah.

01:43:19   So Anthony Edwards tells him, "Come to California."

01:43:20   She's got to go on her semester at sea on December 22nd or whatever, which is hilarious

01:43:25   'cause that's exactly when you'd start the semester at sea is right before Christmas time.

01:43:28   That's not a thing.

01:43:29   But anyway, the idea here is you got to get to see her before she goes off and leaves

01:43:35   because she's a sure thing.

01:43:36   She was in a parochial school or something.

01:43:38   She is built up as this basically like, "She's beautiful and we'll have sex with you, so

01:43:43   come to California and also it's warm here, but you got to get here by a certain date."

01:43:48   And it's about to be the Christmas break, so he goes to the ride share board, which,

01:43:52   Myke, this was a thing, that there would be a place that you could go if you were... They

01:43:56   had this when I was in college. I never used it, but if you were driving to... I went to

01:44:01   school in San Diego, Southern California University, we didn't have the swimming pool and the girls

01:44:04   playing volleyball in the swimming pool, I have to say. As somebody who went to a Southern

01:44:07   California University, but they would have the board and it would have like driving to

01:44:13   LA, you know, and you would, people would like sign up to go with them and you drop

01:44:18   them off. And we actually had that when we went to LA for Thanksgiving one year from

01:44:22   up here. My wife's sister was at Berkeley and she had a friend and it was like, you

01:44:30   know, it was the same idea. It's like we dropped her off along the way because she lived in

01:44:33   the northern part of LA. So we kind of went out of our way a little, dropped her off and

01:44:36   and then continued on. And back in the day before the internet especially, that was sort

01:44:39   of how you did it, is you pinned these messages up and they did like rideshare and you'd share,

01:44:44   you know, you'd buy the gas or whatever and so everybody would win and that was how people

01:44:49   got maybe not across the country, I don't know, that's kind of extreme, but it would

01:44:53   totally, the ridesharing thing would happen.

01:44:56   - So they do that, right? They go on a rideshare and the funny thing is, is that when a gift

01:45:03   gets in the car, Alison is there, right?

01:45:05   Because she is also taking this rideshare in the car that is being driven by a very

01:45:12   young Tim Robbins.

01:45:13   >> MATT: Yep.

01:45:14   And Tim Robbins and his lady are singing show tunes.

01:45:19   They are a lovely wholesome couple.

01:45:21   And the whole time, Alison and Gib are just at each other's throats because Gib tried

01:45:26   to get fresh, I guess, with Alison, and she wasn't having none of it.

01:45:30   And so now they don't really like each other so much.

01:45:33   But they're miss they're wacky and mismatched in the back of this car with the the husband and wife in the front who are super

01:45:38   Perky and don't have kids of their own

01:45:40   so they're expecting this is gonna be a really fun road trip with the college kids and the college kids are silent and

01:45:45   staring daggers at each other and

01:45:47   and there's a lot of funny contrast and they sing the show tunes and

01:45:52   And they're totally bringing down the the happy couple

01:45:57   And then it gets to the point where they get thrown out onto the road and they have to

01:46:03   make their own way, right?

01:46:04   Like, Tim Robbins has just had enough and he just chucks them out of the car.

01:46:07   So they begin the process.

01:46:09   Well, you remember the reason why.

01:46:12   Ultimately he goes, Gib, after having a thing where we hear about that she's got this boyfriend,

01:46:17   Jason, sounds like a terrible guy, in LA, and they are sharing the hotel room and she's

01:46:25   gonna says I've got a schedule. It's very proto when Harry met Sally in some ways, like

01:46:30   she's super uptight and he's not. And so she's like, I got a schedule, you'll sleep on the

01:46:36   bed and alternating nights and I'll sleep on the floor and we'll alternate but tonight

01:46:39   you're on the floor. And he gets really frustrated with that. And he needles her in the car the

01:46:44   next day and says, come on, you got to do something spontaneous. And she says, I like

01:46:47   to do things that are spontaneous when it's been planned out or whatever she says, it's

01:46:51   very funny and then he finally basically gets her to take to lift her shirt up and show

01:46:56   her boobs to the on an oncoming bit of traffic and this outrages Tim Robbins and and his

01:47:04   wife and they they they throw him out of the car because I get pulled over by the police

01:47:08   and he gets a ticket right oh that's true that's true cut cut to he's being written

01:47:14   up for indecent exposure and reckless driving and whatever else for things that would not

01:47:19   be his fault but he's the driver of the car I guess and at that point they just leave

01:47:23   them they leave them by the side of the road in a place that looks suspiciously like where

01:47:27   I grew up it's like the the it's very clearly the foothills of Northern California which

01:47:31   is where they shot a lot of this movie but it's supposedly out in the middle of the United

01:47:36   States somewhere.

01:47:38   So because I knew where you grew up and that kind of thing right Gib and Alison go hitchhiking

01:47:45   at this point so have you ever hitchhiked?

01:47:48   Okay, it seems horrific to me is the thing to do.

01:47:51   Yeah.

01:47:52   Yeah.

01:47:53   Like, it seems horrible.

01:47:54   I don't like meeting people, Myke, and hitchhiking is meeting people roulette.

01:47:58   No.

01:47:59   Never.

01:48:00   There's this one scene where Allison and Gib have heard a big argument and she jumps into

01:48:06   a van, he tells her not to go, Gib jumps into the back of the truck and Allison is kind

01:48:12   of accosted by the gentleman driving the car, and he, and then, so then Gib jumps into the

01:48:17   front of the car and like acts like a crazy person. It's a really great scene and it's

01:48:22   like I'm talking about a total maniac like it's really fantastic.

01:48:28   They try very hard to lighten it because it's very dark that basically she's been picked

01:48:33   up by a guy who picks up pretty girl hitchhikers and rapes them. That's a dark way to go but

01:48:40   then it's very quickly counterbalanced by the fact that Gib pops up in the back of the

01:48:45   the truck and is looking in the window, which is a very funny moment because you're like,

01:48:50   "Oh man, he's back there." And then he pops into the--they pull off by the side of the

01:48:54   road and he pops into the door and the guy claims that Allison is his wife and so Jock

01:49:00   is like, "Oh, your wife!" And he goes like a crazy person and he says, "Now I'm just

01:49:05   gonna go out--I'm gonna take my wife--take your wife with me." And he pulls her out and

01:49:10   pulls the stuff out of the back as the guy speeds off and it's a nice moment, I guess,

01:49:15   where she is willing to forgive some things about him because, you know, he was looking

01:49:20   out for her.

01:49:22   I like, um, it's kind of interesting to me how this movie at this point becomes like

01:49:30   a buddy cop movie. Like, which I wasn't expecting, right?

01:49:35   For me, this is the moment where the movie flips over into Brilliant. It's like we've

01:49:39   set for half an hour, we've sort of set up that they're in opposition. Really, the pitch

01:49:43   of this movie is these two people who don't like each other but actually are going to

01:49:48   fall in love are forced to hitchhike across the country when, you know, and this is where

01:49:54   it starts. It's really, it's right here.

01:49:56   Yeah, because it becomes one of those scenarios where like they grow to love each other and

01:50:00   they're pushed apart. Like it's, it becomes that, which I wasn't expecting this movie

01:50:03   to be at all. I really love it when, so they're going to get a bus together, right? They end

01:50:11   up hitchhiking to a bus station and they're about to get a bus and have their first real

01:50:15   heartwarming moment where Allison gives the money to get a bus ticket but she's gonna

01:50:19   go earlier than him. So she leaves to get the bus, he sits down, starts watching TV

01:50:25   and they quickly just do a quick cut of the camera angle and Allison has gotten off the

01:50:30   bus and she's just standing over him watching the TV with him. I really like that moment,

01:50:34   that was really nice. Yeah, she doesn't give him the money yet, she offers to give him

01:50:38   the money later but he doesn't have the money at that point.

01:50:40   Oh, I thought she gave him the money at that point.

01:50:42   No, no, she offers to give him like $50 or something like that of her $70 but he refuses

01:50:47   and he's basically going to just sort of sit there at the bus station I think is how it

01:50:51   is but she can't, this is her opportunity to not leave him behind so she doesn't leave

01:50:56   him behind.

01:50:57   Okay.

01:50:58   And they're going to go on and you know, go on together and hitchhike the rest of the

01:51:01   way.

01:51:02   So then they're kind of like, they're going from place to place, like they're growing

01:51:05   closer together right during this period of time they're warming up to each other even

01:51:12   to the point where like Gib gets angry that Alison is on the phone to her boyfriend yeah

01:51:18   and he goes out and gets drunk yeah in a bar because because he's he thought that they

01:51:24   were making that connection but she's still talking to the boyfriend and he comes back

01:51:28   and he's super drunk but she like tucks him in at night and that sort of stuff it's kind

01:51:31   They're kind of cute and then the next day like he's rushing her to leave and she leaves this scheduled book that she has which

01:51:37   Has all of our money in it and she's planned out this whole trip for them. She leaves it in the hotel

01:51:41   They go on a few different hitchhiking adventures before they realize that the book has actually been lost and

01:51:48   But then it was to rain it starts to rain but the way that they do the schedule book being lost is fantastic

01:51:55   She's like right we can eat every 200 miles. So they go to a certain point they go to a cafe

01:51:59   They're so excited to go in and eat. They're like talking about what they're gonna order

01:52:01   They walk in and the camera just stays on the door for a few seconds

01:52:05   And then they stall back out again and gives like how could you lose your schedule book?

01:52:09   And I really like that at this point. They've quickly assumed the stereotypical roles of a married couple

01:52:14   Mm-hmm, which is really cute

01:52:16   Then it starts to rain and they start to like try and find a place and then

01:52:20   Allison remembers that she has a credit card that can only be used in emergencies

01:52:25   So then cut to this extremely lavish hotel that they're in with this beautiful meal that they're eating

01:52:30   They're the only place that took credit cards. Of course, they're eating veal and salmon and this is kind of where the movie

01:52:37   Ends up for me like having more heart than I expected

01:52:40   Like there's this scene that evening where they're lying in bed together

01:52:44   Like usually be one of them on the bed one with them on the floor

01:52:46   But this is the first night that they're gonna share a bed together like nothing's really going on because she trusts him

01:52:53   She says, you know, this is unlike before.

01:52:55   She's like, no, no, you can sleep on the bed too.

01:52:57   It's fine.

01:52:58   She's like, there's a level of trust

01:52:59   that they have with each other

01:53:00   having been through all of this.

01:53:01   And in the morning, he wakes up

01:53:04   and his arm's kind of around her.

01:53:07   And he's super apologetic.

01:53:09   Like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

01:53:11   I didn't mean to do that.

01:53:12   I feel really bad.

01:53:12   And so he's learned this, you know,

01:53:16   he's trying to honor her choices

01:53:18   and be a good guy and be a good friend.

01:53:21   And her response is like, it's fine, right?

01:53:24   Like she, cause she does, she totally trusts him.

01:53:26   It's fine.

01:53:27   And they, they, they have built that connection now

01:53:29   where it's the complete opposite of that first hotel room

01:53:32   scene where he decides he's going to sleep on the bed

01:53:34   and she just goes and sleeps on the floor.

01:53:36   - And then Gib goes and stands out on the veranda

01:53:38   to cool down, I assume.

01:53:39   Like, he's just like, I'm going to go stand on the veranda.

01:53:41   Like he just goes out there and just stands there

01:53:43   for a while.

01:53:44   But it's, it's really nice how they like,

01:53:46   they warm to each other in this way,

01:53:48   but they end up getting to LA.

01:53:51   So they get into this truck and Allison is asleep,

01:53:54   or at least they believe that she is asleep.

01:53:56   And Gib is talking to the truck driver

01:53:58   and telling him about the sure thing,

01:54:01   the reason that he's going to California.

01:54:03   Because at this point, Gib is pretty convinced

01:54:05   that he hasn't got a shot, right?

01:54:07   Because Allison seems to still be hung up on her boyfriend.

01:54:10   - That conversation actually begins with a guy saying,

01:54:14   you and your girlfriend,

01:54:20   And he says, "No, she's not my girlfriend.

01:54:22   She's got a boyfriend in LA."

01:54:23   And the truck driver says something like,

01:54:25   "Oh, that's a shame."

01:54:27   And John Cusack looks back and makes sure she's asleep.

01:54:29   And he says, "Yeah, it is."

01:54:31   And it's like, that's his moment of revealing

01:54:33   that he's written her off and is very sad about it,

01:54:37   but she's got a boyfriend and that's just how it is.

01:54:38   And he's got to deal with it.

01:54:40   And what happens next is that they're talking

01:54:43   about the sure thing and that's when she wakes up.

01:54:45   So she doesn't hear him regret the fact

01:54:48   that he can't be with her because she's got a boyfriend. All she hears is that he's going

01:54:52   to go to Anthony Edwards' place and meet Nicolette Sheridan.

01:54:57   But the truck driver puts the foot down, right? He's like, "You can't waste this opportunity."

01:55:01   Like he's got to get in there.

01:55:02   No. She's going to be gone in a couple of days. It's like, "All right, if you pay the

01:55:06   speeding tickets, and off they go with the truck through other parts of California that

01:55:12   we're being shown."

01:55:13   And then it's really great. Like, they're in the same university, right? So...

01:55:16   UCLA apparently yeah. Alison is going to visit her boyfriend who I think's name was Jason.

01:55:21   Yes he's Jason and he he's really boring and likes tea. Yeah so he's the worst the worst

01:55:28   and he wears glasses. I just realized that. He is the worst human being any you find a Jason who

01:55:34   went to college in Southern California drinks tea wears glasses uh super boring boring dump him dump

01:55:40   him ladies dump him. Why would anybody want to spend time with a guy like that? Um excuse me I'm

01:55:45   I'm gonna sip my tea now." Yeah, please do. Their nights really diverge at this point.

01:55:48   Like, Alison is like super bored now of her boyfriend and everything about him. She like is--

01:55:53   They're playing cards! Yeah. She wants to shotgun a beer because Gib taught her that. And he wants

01:55:59   to make tea and play cards and when she says "Let's do something exciting," he says "How about I spot

01:56:05   you 50 points at cards?" So it's insulting because he's saying she's not very good at it

01:56:10   and still really boring. And then Gib is off at a party right where he meets the sure thing.

01:56:16   But then Alison sees the party and she wants to go to a party too so she kind of arrives with her

01:56:24   boyfriend and at this point Gib isn't sure if he wants to go through with the sure thing because

01:56:29   he's in love with Alison but when he sees them two coming together he's like screw it and there's

01:56:33   this whole scene where they're like both as couples dancing near each other and then it comes out that

01:56:38   that Gib is actually a virgin even though he had claims of sexual prowess but it seems

01:56:44   like that has not been the case.

01:56:46   Or, I'm not clear on if that's actually the case because they say in the first scene in

01:56:51   the movie he talks about having sex a few times.

01:56:53   I think, yeah I know that, I think that was bravado.

01:56:57   Yeah but I think it's possible though that, because the implication is that Anthony Edwards

01:57:00   has also downplayed him to the sure thing to make her, I guess, seem more charitable

01:57:06   toward him. It's, you know, the sexual politics of a teen sex movie from the 80s are questionable

01:57:12   at best, but I think that's--because he also--Anthony also--Edwards also suggests that he might

01:57:17   be gay, so that's in the mix here too, which is not, you know, it's not the best. But the

01:57:22   idea is regardless, Gibb feels insulted by Anthony Edwards, and then it also--there's

01:57:29   a breakdown between Allison and Jason because she is way too familiar with Gibb and he is

01:57:35   not aware of the fact that they've been traveling together and sleeping in the same motel rooms

01:57:40   and all of those things and and so he's like how do you know this how does he know what

01:57:44   you look like in the morning and you know all of these things right so it's everything

01:57:48   is kind of falling apart she's like complaining to her boyfriend about how much this boy annoys

01:57:53   her it's it's absolutely fantastic and then it kind of it kind of cuts to back at university

01:58:02   right? That back to school.

01:58:03   Well, so the last scene in LA is he takes Nicolette Sheridan, the sure thing, to the

01:58:12   bedroom and they're talking. And earlier, I should say, there's a-- he has a series

01:58:16   of dream sequences with Nicolette Sheridan that are kind of amusing where there's a really

01:58:20   great one where he's-- where she is sitting by the side of the pool basically begging

01:58:24   him to have more sex with her and he's sitting in this pool chair floating around and saying,

01:58:28   "No, you know, I'm tired," and all of that. That is, it's staged very amusingly. And then

01:58:34   there are several of those, which are very, you know, teen boy fantasy kind of scenarios.

01:58:39   And then the last one, he has that same kind of scenario and it's Allison, right? So that's

01:58:44   that moment of like, "Oh, he's really got now." So here, he goes up with her like, "This

01:58:50   is the time he's finally going to be able to do it with The Sure Thing," and we cut

01:58:57   away and we don't we don't really see a realization of what exactly happens there other than that

01:59:01   we know that he is you know he's thinking about Allison and we cut back to college after

01:59:06   winter break.

01:59:07   And Gib has written a paper that the lecturer starts to read a lot.

01:59:11   Our Swedish lecturer yes.

01:59:13   It's called The Sure Thing and it explains the whole story up to the point where he says

01:59:18   that he couldn't go through of it because that's right the sure thing wanted to say

01:59:24   that he loved her and he couldn't do that because now he knew what love was.

01:59:28   The answer was no.

01:59:31   And at that moment she's looking back, Alison was looking back at him

01:59:36   and he's looking at her and she realizes that uh that he didn't go

01:59:43   upstairs and uh have sex with the sure thing

01:59:46   because he's in love with her and this is the way he chose to

01:59:48   express it is several weeks later in an essay in the middle of class being read

01:59:52   by the Swedish lady. The only way to express true love, Jason. As you do. So I really like this movie.

01:59:58   My problem with this movie is I'd seen Say Anything. Uh yeah, yeah, well it's, it's, it's,

02:00:07   it's funny too because he's like kind of a proto, he's more intelligent than the guy in Say Anything,

02:00:14   I think, because in some ways, because he does go off to like an Ivy League college instead of

02:00:18   sort of staying home and trying not to join the army, but he is a similar kind of character,

02:00:26   and Allison is very much like the lead in the female lead in "Say Anything," right?

02:00:33   They're similar. I would say if you--we haven't done "When Harry Met Sally" yet, have we?

02:00:39   -No. -Have you seen that movie?

02:00:42   -No. -Okay, maybe we'll do that. That's another

02:00:45   Rob Reiner movie with Meg Ryan and Billy Crystal. And there is, in the beginning of that movie,

02:00:51   there's a drive from Chicago to New York that they take that also I feel like is very similar,

02:00:58   and their relationship is very similar to the relationship in this movie. So you see,

02:01:04   you saw them out of order. I feel like this is like a proto movie of other movies. Like,

02:01:09   it leads to Say Anything and it leads to When Harry Met Sally. But it is not, and it leads

02:01:15   to High Fidelity, maybe in some ways, I don't know. But it is earlier, right? So it's, yeah,

02:01:21   it's not quite as fully formed. Say Anything kind of picks up after two minutes. And here

02:01:26   I feel like it takes 25 minutes of setup before the movie really starts to crank. And the

02:01:31   first 25 minutes is not particularly warm or likable because it's about, you know, freshmen

02:01:38   and in college who are on the make and it's just kind of like that stuff really doesn't

02:01:41   interest me and then it then it really kicks into gear and then the last whatever the last

02:01:48   hour of it is spectacular but you're right it is it is like a lot of these other movies

02:01:52   and Cusack is a lot like he is in Say Anything and that it is a similar kind of mismatch

02:01:58   relationship and it's just because I loved that movie so much that's a that's a better

02:02:03   movie than this movie yeah but I did really enjoy this movie I also like that it was like

02:02:08   hundred minutes that felt right yeah a lot of the movies that we've been

02:02:12   watching are two hours more so many two hour long movies that are made these

02:02:17   days and this is 95 and it's it's it's uh tight and bright as they say it is a

02:02:22   solid you know it sort of sweeps you along it's very it's uh yeah I I like it

02:02:29   a lot I have not seen this one in a very long time and I remember liking it and

02:02:33   as I started to watch it I thought oh no what if my memory is faulty and it's not

02:02:36   that good. But then, like I said, 20 minutes in or somewhere, I'm like, "Oh, yeah. Oh,

02:02:41   yeah. No, no, this is really great." And I will say my experience actually, part of the

02:02:48   reason I love this movie is that it's got some resonance for me and it's not because

02:02:50   there's that boring Jason who drinks tea. It's because my relationship, so I met my

02:02:57   wife in college and I had a girlfriend and she had a boyfriend. And I see us in this

02:03:02   movie in the sense that these two characters make a connection but they are not capable

02:03:12   and it's one-sided and in the case of this well unless you consider the sure thing the

02:03:15   thing that's pulling him but that she's an illusion I actually really like that that

02:03:19   although she does exist it is a it is a stand-in for kind of a male fantasy of a woman as opposed

02:03:26   to a real woman and that's what this movie is about is that he falls in love with a real

02:03:30   woman and the fantasy is not going to measure up to reality. The reality is better. She's

02:03:36   a real woman and he loves her and that is the most important thing, right? And it just,

02:03:40   but I have that mirror because that was exactly the same situation my wife and I were in in

02:03:46   college where we were dating other people and we formed a really tight connection and,

02:03:52   you know, there was definitely a moment where she broke up. I heard that she had broken

02:03:59   up with her boyfriend right after I graduated from college. And it was exactly like the

02:04:03   moment in the movie where he says, "You broke up with him?" It was like, "Oh, what a relief."

02:04:10   Well, now there's nothing stopping us from getting together, and that is how this movie

02:04:13   ends. So that's great too. But I do like that overarching message that for all of the stuff

02:04:18   at the beginning that's kind of gross, especially, I think, 30 years later about things you say

02:04:23   to get women to go out with you and to get women to sleep with you. In the end, what's

02:04:26   the core message of this movie. That the sure thing is not what he wants, that she's a fantasy,

02:04:32   and that Allison is who he wants and she's a real person and she's not perfect for him

02:04:39   in the sense that she does all sorts of things that he doesn't like and he does all sorts

02:04:42   of things that she doesn't like, but in the end they're the ones who should be together.

02:04:49   Aww.

02:04:50   I like these movies of like the heartwarming love story. I'm a sucker for it and this one ticks those boxes

02:04:56   So it recommended another great mic at the movies pick Jason you do very well. Thank you

02:05:01   Thank you. This is I'm happy we could combine Rob Reiner and John Cusack. This is where they come together

02:05:08   So now we'll the past will diverge again, but but we got it. We got them together right here

02:05:13   This series is all about Cusack for me. Gotta say we gotta go for high fidelity soon. I think yeah, it's in the 90s

02:05:19   but or maybe even 2000 but it may be we may have to go there we may have to take a time

02:05:24   machine forward to there.

02:05:26   If you want to find the show notes for this week's episode you want to head on over to

02:05:31   relay.fm/upgrade/64.

02:05:36   Thank you so much to the good people, our lovely sponsors today.

02:05:40   The great people over at Smile with Texas Band of Five, Hover, Igloo and Braintree.

02:05:44   If you want to find Jason online head on over to SixColors.com.

02:05:47   Don't forget to sign up for the six color subscription. You can also find Jason. He is at Jason L

02:05:52   J s ne double L and I am at I Myke I am y k e

02:05:57   Thanks so much to you for listening as always and we'll be back next time with upgrade until then. Say goodbye Jason

02:06:04   Goodbye

02:06:07   [ Music ]