The Incomparable

264: Passwords Are Wrong, Man


00:00:00   the uncomfortable radio theatre is [TS]

00:00:01   coming very very soon and now let's [TS]

00:00:05   model spread ship division time for the [TS]

00:00:08   fall most famous words and racing galaxy [TS]

00:00:13   Scouts start your engines at five words [TS]

00:00:19   it's just an expression go to the [TS]

00:00:21   incomparable calm / radio or search [TS]

00:00:23   itunes to subscribe today the [TS]

00:00:27   incomparable number 264 September 2015 [TS]

00:00:36   welcome back everybody to the [TS]

00:00:37   uncountable i'm your host Jason Steele [TS]

00:00:38   we like to talk about books on this [TS]

00:00:40   podcast and we like to talk about nerdy [TS]

00:00:42   things on this podcast we're going to [TS]

00:00:43   mix it up [TS]

00:00:44   we also like sometimes talk about all [TS]

00:00:45   things are going to put all those [TS]

00:00:47   together in a bowl and spin them around [TS]

00:00:48   what you're going to get his old nerdy [TS]

00:00:50   books about technology from the earlier [TS]

00:00:53   days of technology this is a really a [TS]

00:00:55   very clever idea for a topic that was [TS]

00:00:57   brought to us by Lisa Schmeisser herself [TS]

00:01:00   who is here [TS]

00:01:01   hi Lisa hi it's a pleasure to be here [TS]

00:01:03   yes well youyou called it and we made it [TS]

00:01:06   happen eventually [TS]

00:01:07   so we're going to hear you're here we're [TS]

00:01:09   going to talk about books such as [TS]

00:01:12   hackers micro surfs the Cuckoo's egg and [TS]

00:01:16   soul of a new machine [TS]

00:01:17   these are books from an era where we [TS]

00:01:19   were all just sort of figuring out about [TS]

00:01:21   technology and books were some fictional [TS]

00:01:23   some non-fictional bringing to us this [TS]

00:01:26   crazy new world of computers and the [TS]

00:01:28   internet and some of them are actually I [TS]

00:01:31   think all of them are quite fascinating [TS]

00:01:33   and some of them are probably worth your [TS]

00:01:34   time even today joining me and Lisa to [TS]

00:01:37   talk about these nerdy books are some [TS]

00:01:40   nerdy people i'm going to say look at [TS]

00:01:44   lower is out there hello hello [TS]

00:01:47   I i will cop to being some deeper some [TS]

00:01:49   nerdy person [TS]

00:01:51   Monty Ashley also out their employee of [TS]

00:01:54   a large technology company but who's [TS]

00:01:55   counting contractor for a large checks [TS]

00:01:58   are companies do all right you wouldn't [TS]

00:02:00   be a nerd if you did in fact my contract [TS]

00:02:02   contractor actually that says it all [TS]

00:02:04   doesn't it that yes that is his nineties [TS]

00:02:06   it's not his tech industry is possible [TS]

00:02:09   today's and I you know I know that this [TS]

00:02:13   person knew Jeff bezos's mailman's [TS]

00:02:16   brother it's cool and Fleischmann excuse [TS]

00:02:18   me its basis is jeff basis mailman's [TS]

00:02:23   brother I'm not mentioned in any of the [TS]

00:02:26   books so far as i know that we're [TS]

00:02:27   covering tonight but you were your [TS]

00:02:29   you've been present we've got some [TS]

00:02:31   people from the from the Seattle [TS]

00:02:33   technology sphere here which is kind of [TS]

00:02:37   fascinating to sew with somewhere where [TS]

00:02:39   should we start I will admit that I i [TS]

00:02:41   re-read one of these or are skimmed one [TS]

00:02:45   of these and haven't read the other two [TS]

00:02:46   who so guidance [TS]

00:02:48   start by said the reason I wanted to do [TS]

00:02:50   is likely as wasn't even sure the reason [TS]

00:02:53   i wanted his pipe podcast is [TS]

00:02:54   microservice was published 20 years ago [TS]

00:02:56   this July and it was kind of perhaps I'm [TS]

00:03:00   overstating the cultural impact but it [TS]

00:03:02   was kind of like a postcard from the the [TS]

00:03:05   future or rather the future that was [TS]

00:03:07   being shaped up and down the west coast [TS]

00:03:09   and little tech enclaves all over the [TS]

00:03:10   place and what I can remember is over [TS]

00:03:14   the year or two after was published [TS]

00:03:15   everywhere in the world wide web someone [TS]

00:03:17   was saying i want to live in a nerd [TS]

00:03:18   house like they have a micro service or [TS]

00:03:19   they worse or they were saying identify [TS]

00:03:21   with sunset from microservice alright [TS]

00:03:23   actually what was on a date one time [TS]

00:03:24   with someone who's like what are your [TS]

00:03:25   five jeopardy categories and I was like [TS]

00:03:27   did you get that from microservices like [TS]

00:03:29   I got it from microsoft so [TS]

00:03:31   oh so it was um one of those minor works [TS]

00:03:37   of a cultural cannon in the nineteen [TS]

00:03:38   nineties and then I got to thinking [TS]

00:03:39   about what are the other books that I [TS]

00:03:42   knew that got passed around like the [TS]

00:03:44   engineering departments of startups or [TS]

00:03:46   maybe they're percolated through through [TS]

00:03:48   offices throughout South the market and [TS]

00:03:50   once they came up with things like the [TS]

00:03:52   Cuckoo's egg by clifford stole hackers [TS]

00:03:54   by steven levy a friend of mine who is a [TS]

00:03:58   PhD in electrical engineering said the [TS]

00:04:00   one that he considers to be the vertex [TS]

00:04:02   of them all is Tracy Kidder's the soul [TS]

00:04:06   of a new machine and so I thought it [TS]

00:04:08   would be kind of fun to talk about like [TS]

00:04:10   the tech cultural the textbook canada [TS]

00:04:12   the nineteen nineties like the [TS]

00:04:13   literature that may have shaped people [TS]

00:04:15   who worked on level one point out and [TS]

00:04:17   what books are kind of like music [TS]

00:04:19   artifact today and what books are [TS]

00:04:21   actually pretty handy to read because [TS]

00:04:23   they were either really pressure or [TS]

00:04:25   they're great historical record for [TS]

00:04:27   explaining the era [TS]

00:04:28   alright thank God I think that's good i [TS]

00:04:30   I'll tell you and in rereading the [TS]

00:04:32   Cuckoo's egg [TS]

00:04:33   ok which I always I always liked I that [TS]

00:04:36   took me back to to that era I have lots [TS]

00:04:41   of opinions about it but I don't know I [TS]

00:04:42   feel like I feel like maybe [TS]

00:04:43   microservices the place to start here [TS]

00:04:46   Lisa since that was here inspired all of [TS]

00:04:48   this and i have I haven't read it [TS]

00:04:51   I'mI'm intellects for even roll here not [TS]

00:04:54   seen it not read it so I'm going to [TS]

00:04:55   leave it to you all to discuss this is [TS]

00:04:59   douglas coupland right well yeah this is [TS]

00:05:01   done [TS]

00:05:01   so do you want basically like a brief [TS]

00:05:03   this is what the book is about why I [TS]

00:05:04   remember that would be a great place [TS]

00:05:06   alright so in a nutshell the book is [TS]

00:05:09   about a group of Microsoft employees who [TS]

00:05:12   spend who are you know energetic and [TS]

00:05:16   engaged and passionate about their work [TS]

00:05:18   but not particularly ambitious and not [TS]

00:05:20   particularly self-aware and over the [TS]

00:05:22   course of the book they all leave [TS]

00:05:23   Microsoft they called us together to [TS]

00:05:25   work in a start-up and it is about them [TS]

00:05:28   turning into they'll become real boys [TS]

00:05:30   and girls as it were [TS]

00:05:31   that's basically the whole Locker the [TS]

00:05:32   book is its young adults learn how you [TS]

00:05:35   can also learn who they are and what [TS]

00:05:37   makes it such an uncanny artifact of the [TS]

00:05:40   time is that [TS]

00:05:42   Copeland spends a lot of the book trying [TS]

00:05:44   to meditate the boundaries between your [TS]

00:05:47   offline life versus your virtual your [TS]

00:05:50   online life because there's a subplot [TS]

00:05:51   that involves two of the women who work [TS]

00:05:54   in the company putting together an [TS]

00:05:55   online coding coding group called chicks [TS]

00:05:57   to raise the profile of girls in the [TS]

00:05:59   tech industry and the book is actually a [TS]

00:06:03   series of journal entries that the lead [TS]

00:06:06   guide the building protagonist makes on [TS]

00:06:07   on his computer the whole time he's [TS]

00:06:10   under the spell of a genius who seems to [TS]

00:06:12   be more comfortable interfacing with [TS]

00:06:14   computers than with people and another [TS]

00:06:16   thing Copeland does he punctuates each [TS]

00:06:18   chapter of the list of seemingly random [TS]

00:06:20   words and he also has the conceit where [TS]

00:06:22   he introduces advice but I saying here [TS]

00:06:24   or there jeopardy cafeteria the Jeopardy [TS]

00:06:26   category is that define them and when [TS]

00:06:28   he's also doing is trying to make a [TS]

00:06:29   point about how culture influences [TS]

00:06:30   technology and vice versa and how [TS]

00:06:33   difficult it can be to figure out who [TS]

00:06:35   you are if you hide in technology have [TS]

00:06:36   to kind of flip it around and make it [TS]

00:06:38   something that works for you not vice [TS]

00:06:39   versa other so so with that said about [TS]

00:06:43   their hands throughout their head has [TS]

00:06:44   comments about Microsoft's because I [TS]

00:06:46   don't is everybody else either either [TS]

00:06:48   read it [TS]

00:06:49   iraq to blend in a little extra candy 10 [TS]

00:06:52   that's funny because it was well here's [TS]

00:06:54   the thing well here's my comment is I [TS]

00:06:55   moved to Seattle in 1993 and it was no [TS]

00:06:59   thought of as a bit of a Boeing town [TS]

00:07:01   and and Boeing was the big engineering [TS]

00:07:03   culture and there are no books that have [TS]

00:07:05   entered the popular kind of [TS]

00:07:06   consciousness about bowing as a company [TS]

00:07:08   there are books about a plenty of them [TS]

00:07:10   but boeing was full of engineers are [TS]

00:07:12   tens of thousands of Engineers you know [TS]

00:07:14   civil engineers and and all kinds of [TS]

00:07:17   other no idea of the Aeronautics and so [TS]

00:07:19   forth and they made huge amounts of [TS]

00:07:21   money to create salaries they sort of [TS]

00:07:23   set a bit of the Seattle culture and [TS]

00:07:25   then we have the dot-com infection when [TS]

00:07:28   Amazon fact that grew and is expanded to [TS]

00:07:30   cover all available land mass but [TS]

00:07:33   Microsoft was there in the middle you [TS]

00:07:34   know there was a local guy another local [TS]

00:07:36   guy came back and they have their [TS]

00:07:38   sojourn in the wilderness and came here [TS]

00:07:39   and found a company and and built it up [TS]

00:07:42   and so when I got here in 93 worse we [TS]

00:07:44   were not only thousands of Microsoft [TS]

00:07:46   employees there's almost a hundred [TS]

00:07:47   thousand now worldwide but Microsoft's [TS]

00:07:51   kind of hit too close to home I was like [TS]

00:07:52   I'm living in this milieu everybody [TS]

00:07:55   around me is working for microsoft and [TS]

00:07:57   I'm going out in that field so I never [TS]

00:07:59   ever ready because i felt i was in it so [TS]

00:08:01   that's my perspective the book is kind [TS]

00:08:03   of notable because it sort of posits [TS]

00:08:05   that you can not have boundaries between [TS]

00:08:07   your work life and your social life that [TS]

00:08:09   if you do that you can basically just [TS]

00:08:11   have one seamless sloshy thing where [TS]

00:08:13   everything is somehow innately [TS]

00:08:14   fulfilling and so I think it was one of [TS]

00:08:17   the building blocks of the myth of you [TS]

00:08:20   know rewarding fulfilling start startup [TS]

00:08:22   culture and clinical work life balance [TS]

00:08:23   because Copelan essentially spins this [TS]

00:08:26   fairy tale that you can find a job and a [TS]

00:08:28   company full of people who will [TS]

00:08:29   automatically be your best friend and [TS]

00:08:31   you can find romantic fulfillment that [TS]

00:08:32   way to and I think a lot of people were [TS]

00:08:35   really beguiled by that idea because [TS]

00:08:38   it's so it's like college accepted me I [TS]

00:08:40   get a paycheck i read this book in 1995 [TS]

00:08:44   shortly after I moved to Seattle them [TS]

00:08:47   anymore and right right i'm working at [TS]

00:08:52   Microsoft right now but I've only been [TS]

00:08:55   doing that for about a year but i was [TS]

00:08:57   also working at Microsoft in 1996 or so [TS]

00:09:01   actually no 1995 that I was doing [TS]

00:09:05   microsoft technical support for the [TS]

00:09:07   launch of windows 95 it was part of my [TS]

00:09:10   job to answer the phone and say hi [TS]

00:09:12   thanks for calling microsoft technical [TS]

00:09:13   support [TS]

00:09:14   what [TS]

00:09:14   and the program do you have a problem [TS]

00:09:15   with and then when people told me I was [TS]

00:09:17   then tried to rout them to either the [TS]

00:09:18   visual basic engineers or the Microsoft [TS]

00:09:21   Bob engineers depending on where [TS]

00:09:24   people's problems were i gotta say i [TS]

00:09:26   never thought micro serfs felt accurate [TS]

00:09:31   at all like for one thing it describes a [TS]

00:09:35   Microsoft where everybody uses [TS]

00:09:36   Macintosh's for everything which is not [TS]

00:09:40   my experience but also just the degree [TS]

00:09:44   to which everybody lives microsoft in [TS]

00:09:50   the book and lives with the people they [TS]

00:09:53   work with ya drastically overstated my [TS]

00:09:56   experience having said that it's super [TS]

00:10:00   fun for me to read it now because [TS]

00:10:02   Copeland did a lot of research on the [TS]

00:10:05   area clearly because he's talking about [TS]

00:10:08   the fries over there and like that price [TS]

00:10:11   is still over there it's awful now or [TS]

00:10:13   there's one line where he says microsoft [TS]

00:10:15   is so huge they have 25 buildings and [TS]

00:10:19   that's 20 years ago now I I work in a [TS]

00:10:22   building labeled a because they ran out [TS]

00:10:25   of numbers is my theory it's just I'm [TS]

00:10:29   basically on the main campus but it's [TS]

00:10:31   still incredibly huge and you never see [TS]

00:10:33   anything on the other side of the campus [TS]

00:10:36   so I I at this point to me it's a [TS]

00:10:39   historical look at the size of Microsoft [TS]

00:10:42   20 years ago but it's like a recruitment [TS]

00:10:46   pamphlet from back in the day and then [TS]

00:10:48   part way through the book they all leave [TS]

00:10:50   Microsoft anyway and I don't feel [TS]

00:10:52   vaguely let down by that because clearly [TS]

00:10:54   to me [TS]

00:10:55   coupland doesn't really care about [TS]

00:10:56   microsoft he cares about Silicon Valley [TS]

00:10:58   nerds need ya to start some up and back [TS]

00:11:01   off then get them down to where he cares [TS]

00:11:03   about as quickly as possible [TS]

00:11:04   they also have like a cult of [TS]

00:11:05   personality around bill gates because [TS]

00:11:07   remember he writes the book around the [TS]

00:11:08   time that bill gates got married to [TS]

00:11:09   melinda and there's a lot of fixation on [TS]

00:11:11   that too so that there's a sort of Bill [TS]

00:11:14   Gates is this you know he's a [TS]

00:11:16   combination of patron saints super [TS]

00:11:17   villain in their in their minds as well [TS]

00:11:19   which i thought was a a weird choice but [TS]

00:11:22   i guess thats that's not entirely [TS]

00:11:24   accurate i mean now now is it [TS]

00:11:27   giant house that looks a bit like a [TS]

00:11:29   supervillain later [TS]

00:11:30   oh my god really and well I mean he's [TS]

00:11:33   super rich me as a house of the future [TS]

00:11:34   so you know why wouldn't you [TS]

00:11:36   but also i have heard people say I i saw [TS]

00:11:40   bill on campus once [TS]

00:11:42   oh wow yeah which is why wouldn't he I'm [TS]

00:11:45   sure he's got an office here somewhere [TS]

00:11:47   let me know i'll say right off the bat I [TS]

00:11:49   am NOT a douglas coupland fan I this is [TS]

00:11:53   this is the only douglas coupland book [TS]

00:11:55   i've liked and and i would say [TS]

00:11:58   dramatically overstated is a good [TS]

00:12:00   description of almost all of his work if [TS]

00:12:02   it uh but for all that when this came [TS]

00:12:06   out I avoided it like the plague because [TS]

00:12:08   I'm like oh it's copeland and at the [TS]

00:12:11   time i guess was 96 I was doing a lot of [TS]

00:12:13   driving trips on consulting things i'm [TS]

00:12:16   driving around and and I would listen to [TS]

00:12:18   audiobooks in the car was very it was a [TS]

00:12:20   nice way to past six hours while driving [TS]

00:12:22   straight on an interstate and the [TS]

00:12:26   audiobook of this was written by written [TS]

00:12:29   performed by Matthew Perry and I thought [TS]

00:12:33   okay you know it's a bridged if I don't [TS]

00:12:37   like it at least Matthew Perry will be [TS]

00:12:38   amusing [TS]

00:12:39   you know there wasn't anything else at [TS]

00:12:41   the store the really appealed to me [TS]

00:12:42   something alright and I i went up [TS]

00:12:45   enjoying it so I went and got the book [TS]

00:12:46   so I could get all the bits that i [TS]

00:12:48   missed since it was abridged and yeah i [TS]

00:12:52   mean going back to it now it's like oh [TS]

00:12:54   yeah it's actually not very good either [TS]

00:12:56   but I basically liked the setup of it i [TS]

00:13:02   mean at the time i was thinking you know [TS]

00:13:04   this would make a really good TV show [TS]

00:13:06   you know the the framework is their [TS]

00:13:09   animated for obvious reasons they got [TS]

00:13:12   Perry to do the the voice so it's like [TS]

00:13:14   well alright that makes sense [TS]

00:13:16   we should say for those youngsters out [TS]

00:13:19   there who are listening to us old people [TS]

00:13:20   talk about things [TS]

00:13:22   Matthew Perry one of the stars of the [TS]

00:13:24   90s sitcom huge hit sitcom Friends and [TS]

00:13:27   of course the friends were participants [TS]

00:13:29   in launch promotional video for windows [TS]

00:13:32   95 so they're soldiers could there be a [TS]

00:13:35   better person to narrate you will [TS]

00:13:37   respect you of course no Matthew Perry [TS]

00:13:39   as the star of the [TS]

00:13:40   Odd Couple to ensure and we know you [TS]

00:13:42   probably know studio 60 on the Sunset [TS]

00:13:45   Strip [TS]

00:13:46   there you go go on to think about me mr. [TS]

00:13:52   sunshine you mean mr. Sunshine's which I [TS]

00:13:54   like mr. sunshine and selling shine [TS]

00:13:57   yeah but at ten years later Copeland [TS]

00:14:01   came out with a book called jpod which [TS]

00:14:04   was basically this book kind of [TS]

00:14:06   rewritten except with different you know [TS]

00:14:10   different names and a different software [TS]

00:14:12   thing that they're working on but it's [TS]

00:14:14   pretty much the same thing and it wasn't [TS]

00:14:17   anywhere near as good but they did turn [TS]

00:14:20   that into a TV show which got canceled [TS]

00:14:22   huh oh no little silicon valley could [TS]

00:14:24   people uh yeah [TS]

00:14:26   Silicon Valley and halt and catch fire [TS]

00:14:28   well that ties into tracy kidder [TS]

00:14:30   Sullivan machine so we can get to that a [TS]

00:14:32   little bit [TS]

00:14:32   mm no I did like the subplot about all [TS]

00:14:36   the nerds suddenly becoming really into [TS]

00:14:38   physical fitness [TS]

00:14:40   oh god that was some funny is it kind of [TS]

00:14:43   predicted tim ferriss in my opinion and [TS]

00:14:46   body hacking because they spend a lot of [TS]

00:14:48   time on my watch is telling me to stand [TS]

00:14:49   up I'll be right back [TS]

00:14:50   yeah erin and i will say he does a [TS]

00:14:55   I mean he basically this book is in blog [TS]

00:14:58   format before blog was a word or weblog [TS]

00:15:01   was a word and and they're working on a [TS]

00:15:04   software thing that's basically [TS]

00:15:06   minecraft you know so so it's it's a [TS]

00:15:10   little predictive just not as productive [TS]

00:15:12   as i think it thinks it is you exactly [TS]

00:15:14   and quit using the Chicago font know gah [TS]

00:15:17   we have you would that will see that [TS]

00:15:19   says nineteen nineties like nothing else [TS]

00:15:21   because when you're on your mac with a [TS]

00:15:23   stupid little cow daughter was called [TS]

00:15:25   don't know [TS]

00:15:26   Thank You dog chow I'm sorry I didn't [TS]

00:15:28   mean to insult your dog catcher Jason [TS]

00:15:29   and you know you owe my guard towers [TS]

00:15:31   name is claris park dog park cow but [TS]

00:15:34   he's not my dog you open up like your [TS]

00:15:36   your text document and it was always the [TS]

00:15:38   default plant so even the weather TV [TS]

00:15:41   faulted to macintosh but being 96 I'm [TS]

00:15:46   not sure in 1995 that when my university [TS]

00:15:49   computer lab it sure was one of the [TS]

00:15:53   things that struck me while reading [TS]

00:15:55   micro serfs is there's a point where [TS]

00:15:57   they get their own URL and it's 00 p dot [TS]

00:16:01   com and the whole time I'm thinking now [TS]

00:16:03   that's probably more valuable that [TS]

00:16:05   you're ridiculous software product [TS]

00:16:08   you're working on this episode of the [TS]

00:16:11   uncomfortable was brought to you by [TS]

00:16:13   FanDuel this is not a duel between two [TS]

00:16:16   victorian gentleman with tall hats and [TS]

00:16:20   little fans that they normally used to [TS]

00:16:22   wave air themselves instead it's fantasy [TS]

00:16:26   sports it is american football season [TS]

00:16:29   it's also european football season but [TS]

00:16:31   i'm not talking about that right now I'm [TS]

00:16:32   talking about the NFL talking about [TS]

00:16:34   fanduel fantasy football its weekly [TS]

00:16:37   fantasy football FanDuel the trusted [TS]

00:16:39   leader in one week fantasy football if [TS]

00:16:41   you haven't signed up for a traditional [TS]

00:16:42   season-long fantasy football league [TS]

00:16:44   guess what it's not a problem [TS]

00:16:45   vandals leagues are week-by-week you [TS]

00:16:49   drop in for a week [TS]

00:16:50   you pick a bunch of players using a [TS]

00:16:51   salary cap and then you see how well you [TS]

00:16:54   do it's easy to build a team and then [TS]

00:16:57   you sit back and watch how your team [TS]

00:16:58   does across the season i tried this out [TS]

00:17:01   a few weeks ago [TS]

00:17:02   it works really well it's very simple I [TS]

00:17:04   enjoy the challenge of assembling a team [TS]

00:17:05   under a salary cap because you can't [TS]

00:17:07   just pick the famous stars [TS]

00:17:08   you have to try to balance your roster I [TS]

00:17:11   think it's a very clever [TS]

00:17:12   so here's what you need to do go to [TS]

00:17:13   phandroid.com fa ND uel dot-com click on [TS]

00:17:17   the microphone in the upper right-hand [TS]

00:17:18   corner use the code in comfortable and [TS]

00:17:21   sign up now and for new users every [TS]

00:17:23   dollar you deposit will be matched by [TS]

00:17:25   FanDuel up to two hundred dollars that [TS]

00:17:27   gets earned as you play offer is only [TS]

00:17:29   good for the first 50 people that use [TS]

00:17:32   the coding comfortable so sign up today [TS]

00:17:34   that's FanDuel dot-com where everyday is [TS]

00:17:38   a new season fa + D you [TS]

00:17:40   elle.com think of those Victorian [TS]

00:17:42   gentleman with their fold-out paper fans [TS]

00:17:44   at dawn [TS]

00:17:46   fa ND uel dot-com sign up today using [TS]

00:17:49   code and comfortable thank you to handle [TS]

00:17:50   for sponsoring the incomparable my [TS]

00:17:53   husband covered halt and catch fire for [TS]

00:17:55   previously TV and so that meant that by [TS]

00:17:59   merrill proxy I got to see every episode [TS]

00:18:02   that's ever been made a halt and catch [TS]

00:18:03   fire and as I I red-soled missed a new [TS]

00:18:07   machine after that and I was like well i [TS]

00:18:08   really wish i had flipped the order [TS]

00:18:09   because once you read soul of a new [TS]

00:18:13   machine and it walks you through the the [TS]

00:18:15   engineering cultures of the time and [TS]

00:18:17   what the stakes were and the egos [TS]

00:18:19   involved in all of the steps then the [TS]

00:18:21   entire TV series from AMC makes so much [TS]

00:18:24   sense why didn't AMC like send out [TS]

00:18:27   copies of the single look read this and [TS]

00:18:29   then watch the TV series i mean only a [TS]

00:18:31   hundred eighty-six thousand you tuned in [TS]

00:18:32   nationwide we could have sent you all [TS]

00:18:34   copies but my friend cliff was right it [TS]

00:18:39   really is kind of the ur-text for for [TS]

00:18:40   the nerd books the nineties because it [TS]

00:18:42   it documents I think sort of a cultural [TS]

00:18:45   shift like and not on am not on my level [TS]

00:18:48   which is actually how Tracy Kidder [TS]

00:18:50   starts the book but it documents in the [TS]

00:18:52   sense of this is how people began to [TS]

00:18:54   engage their work and this is what the [TS]

00:18:56   stakes were in this is how leaves them [TS]

00:18:57   in the end and that's the thing I find [TS]

00:18:59   interesting about these books in the [TS]

00:19:01   nineties is all of the mask in some way [TS]

00:19:03   shape or form [TS]

00:19:04   how is this aggressive use of technology [TS]

00:19:07   changing the way that we interact with [TS]

00:19:08   our environment and the people that we [TS]

00:19:10   know in it i think one of the [TS]

00:19:12   interesting things about that book [TS]

00:19:15   in particular is that it really is not [TS]

00:19:17   about technology of course right like it [TS]

00:19:19   is it's a really good bit of research [TS]

00:19:21   book but his books are so deeply about [TS]

00:19:23   people and I think I forget all the [TS]

00:19:25   technology description there's accurate [TS]

00:19:27   reading some things about that later [TS]

00:19:29   whether he got the nuance right about [TS]

00:19:30   like the Securities whole thing about [TS]

00:19:32   rings of security [TS]

00:19:33   they're building this like inhale [TS]

00:19:35   service concentric circles and so forth [TS]

00:19:37   and but you know i think i've read for a [TS]

00:19:40   lifesaver for his books or house came [TS]

00:19:42   after that which is really interesting [TS]

00:19:43   and hometown which is about town in [TS]

00:19:47   western Massachusetts and I'm just the [TS]

00:19:49   way he dives into people's lives Mike [TS]

00:19:53   Mike Glennon backstory that happen [TS]

00:19:55   realizes i was reading on let's do [TS]

00:19:57   something came up with Tracy Kidder and [TS]

00:19:59   adjustment West who's the internets [TS]

00:20:00   librarian lips in Vermont very well [TS]

00:20:03   known quantity probably knows her and [TS]

00:20:04   she's live in Seattle and sheeps to make [TS]

00:20:06   some reference to Tracy Kidder and like [TS]

00:20:07   had no choice skaters like my dad is the [TS]

00:20:10   guy in the book mr. West like always [TS]

00:20:12   liked racing history can be used to come [TS]

00:20:13   in our house and he slept downstairs on [TS]

00:20:15   the couch every weekend walks work on [TS]

00:20:16   the book for years Mike oh how his acts [TS]

00:20:19   of here around and you know he did he [TS]

00:20:21   put this the kind of thing like he put [TS]

00:20:23   the work in to understand people so [TS]

00:20:25   wasn't this like I'm gonna fly in and [TS]

00:20:27   learn a little bit about the industry [TS]

00:20:28   and do some interviews and write a book [TS]

00:20:30   it's like he lived and breathed this [TS]

00:20:32   whole thing and lived with them through [TS]

00:20:34   it so you can tell when someone is [TS]

00:20:37   contemporary with the events like [TS]

00:20:38   there's that book called was a great the [TS]

00:20:40   the great year what's the book about the [TS]

00:20:42   big area the big year and I saw the [TS]

00:20:44   movie which I quite like this kind of [TS]

00:20:46   benign but it's good and I read the book [TS]

00:20:48   and the book made me confused because I [TS]

00:20:50   thought to this guy pic right and pick [TS]

00:20:52   the right people to follow and then I [TS]

00:20:53   found out later he went through [TS]

00:20:55   interviewed everybody like a couple [TS]

00:20:57   years after it happened so it's a [TS]

00:20:58   reconstruction and you could tell [TS]

00:21:00   something wasn't right it was good it [TS]

00:21:02   wasn't a constructed narrative is [TS]

00:21:03   apparently pretty accurate but soul of a [TS]

00:21:06   new machine he drove in there and so you [TS]

00:21:08   get this sense of what it's like to be [TS]

00:21:09   working you know people in those days i [TS]

00:21:12   don't think people are used to reading [TS]

00:21:13   books about people working 24 hours at a [TS]

00:21:17   time and no 24-7 didn't mean anything to [TS]

00:21:21   people and so I remember when I read it [TS]

00:21:23   I think first the late eighties maybe [TS]

00:21:26   just being you know it's a little more [TS]

00:21:28   familiar by then it was sort of more [TS]

00:21:29   familiar with the culture was but I'm [TS]

00:21:30   but i think it introduce people to what [TS]

00:21:32   this is all about [TS]

00:21:33   I it's funny that you mentioned people [TS]

00:21:36   hadn't read stuff like this before about [TS]

00:21:38   the these sort of things I got the sense [TS]

00:21:40   in looking at the books in this group [TS]

00:21:43   that I looked at that the story we've [TS]

00:21:45   got here in some ways is stories told as [TS]

00:21:50   being kind of crazy and unique like oh [TS]

00:21:52   you won't believe what the computer [TS]

00:21:54   people are doing that from today's [TS]

00:21:56   perspective you're like well of course [TS]

00:21:57   they are like to thank you working right [TS]

00:22:00   it's like you won't believe the effort [TS]

00:22:02   these people put into making their [TS]

00:22:03   computers and now it's like what that's [TS]

00:22:05   what the computer people do that's like [TS]

00:22:07   that's like a network is now and end and [TS]

00:22:10   but then it was novel and now it's not [TS]

00:22:11   and we get to Cuckoo's egg gets it i [TS]

00:22:13   think that's true of things like [TS]

00:22:14   computer security to ya that it seems [TS]

00:22:17   all strange and different this like it's [TS]

00:22:19   the internet let me explain how that [TS]

00:22:20   works but in the end you know from the [TS]

00:22:22   perspective of 20 years later it's a [TS]

00:22:24   it's like yep that's that's that's not [TS]

00:22:27   special that's just normal [TS]

00:22:29   yeah part of the morale of soul of a new [TS]

00:22:32   machine is that this guy you didn't [TS]

00:22:34   think he did anything but he was a great [TS]

00:22:37   man because he motivated everybody to [TS]

00:22:39   work 20 hours a day and give up their [TS]

00:22:41   social life he lied to them if you can [TS]

00:22:44   deal with the other prospective [TS]

00:22:46   employers in the town that they wouldn't [TS]

00:22:48   hire them away and we do that now I'm [TS]

00:22:50   like these guys were really being taken [TS]

00:22:53   advantage of [TS]

00:22:54   yeah no it's not you mentioned just nine [TS]

00:22:57   west glad there's actually a really [TS]

00:23:00   great piece she wrote about all of the [TS]

00:23:01   technology traps and pitfalls that she's [TS]

00:23:04   run into since her dad died because he's [TS]

00:23:06   had some heat he had some really arcane [TS]

00:23:09   automated home security systems systems [TS]

00:23:11   that she that she's had to figure out [TS]

00:23:14   how to debug and getting into his [TS]

00:23:16   computers husbands and in dealing with [TS]

00:23:18   his digital ephemera has has been just [TS]

00:23:20   like I rolling Lee mind-bogglingly [TS]

00:23:24   difficult i'll have to dig up the piece [TS]

00:23:25   because i read it and i thought oh my [TS]

00:23:27   god this is something we're all gonna [TS]

00:23:28   have to do that thats whats the cross of [TS]

00:23:31   house and sold a new machine she's [TS]

00:23:33   dealing with the soul of a old house [TS]

00:23:34   yea though I can i briefly mention about [TS]

00:23:37   soul of a new machine there is a living [TS]

00:23:40   computer museum in Seattle that has one [TS]

00:23:43   of the machines they're building in this [TS]

00:23:45   book along with a bunch of other old [TS]

00:23:47   nonsense like all tears and PDP's have [TS]

00:23:52   not going to play with them yet but I'm [TS]

00:23:53   going to someday i like how you refer to [TS]

00:23:56   that we just talk about this book which [TS]

00:23:58   is basically oh and here's how he [TS]

00:23:59   motivated people to work crazy hours and [TS]

00:24:01   this was their life's work the poor [TS]

00:24:02   blood sweat and tears into and then you [TS]

00:24:04   dismiss like another undocumented group [TS]

00:24:07   of people on their life works out it's a [TS]

00:24:08   bunch of nonsense that's what is my [TS]

00:24:11   problem with the hungry caterpillar at [TS]

00:24:13   the end of another variable maybe [TS]

00:24:14   they're mixed up the mixed-up chameleon [TS]

00:24:17   at the end it's like he gets the fly but [TS]

00:24:19   don't you feel the fight feel bad for [TS]

00:24:21   the fly [TS]

00:24:21   well Lisa you read this book named the [TS]

00:24:24   computer they're working on the focus of [TS]

00:24:26   everybody's lives they didn't they they [TS]

00:24:30   named it the very they redeem at the [TS]

00:24:32   very end because it's a the eclipse that [TS]

00:24:34   it's the Eagle first isn't right [TS]

00:24:37   yes nice to be honest i had never heard [TS]

00:24:40   of it in the wild although in my defense [TS]

00:24:41   like this was all taking place back [TS]

00:24:44   before computers a enter the Schmeisser [TS]

00:24:47   household your house it's not a [TS]

00:24:49   historically important computer at all [TS]

00:24:51   like salads this book although what did [TS]

00:24:54   really amusing when i first started [TS]

00:24:55   reading it is when i first started [TS]

00:24:57   learning about computers as an [TS]

00:24:59   elementary school my parents had both [TS]

00:25:00   worked with computers in the sixties and [TS]

00:25:02   seventies and what they had said very [TS]

00:25:04   tall Solomon other computers and they [TS]

00:25:06   live in jet rooms because they're just [TS]

00:25:08   so big and they require so much [TS]

00:25:09   processing power and there are many [TS]

00:25:11   computers but the theme is really [TS]

00:25:12   exciting are microcomputers and they had [TS]

00:25:14   that very careful gradation of size and [TS]

00:25:17   as i was reading this book I thought to [TS]

00:25:19   myself because I i was reading it on on [TS]

00:25:21   my laptop computer with my phone next to [TS]

00:25:24   me and I thought my phone [TS]

00:25:26   what would you call that a nano computer [TS]

00:25:28   at this point it's it's impossible you [TS]

00:25:29   know the complete the computers have [TS]

00:25:31   gotten powerful and smaller and but at [TS]

00:25:33   one point this was the the reigning [TS]

00:25:35   paradigm was computer sick up rooms many [TS]

00:25:38   computers maybe not so much and then [TS]

00:25:39   microcomputers will sit on people's [TS]

00:25:41   desks and it's very exciting and [TS]

00:25:42   empowering right [TS]

00:25:44   oh I I remember standing at the Air and [TS]

00:25:46   Space Museum [TS]

00:25:47   an iphone in my hand and the 13 year old [TS]

00:25:50   who was younger the time looking from [TS]

00:25:52   the iphone to the space capsule into the [TS]

00:25:55   iphone into the space capsule little [TS]

00:25:57   plaque that says this is how much [TS]

00:25:58   computing power this before absol had [TS]

00:26:00   and it was less than like a timex [TS]

00:26:02   sinclair which shito what's in my hand [TS]

00:26:05   is infinitely larger and bigger and you [TS]

00:26:09   know and and he blew his mind you know [TS]

00:26:11   it's it's it's stunning what you think [TS]

00:26:15   about how much casual computing power we [TS]

00:26:16   have at our fingertips you know and that [TS]

00:26:20   these books are also really handy [TS]

00:26:21   reminder of how far we have come and how [TS]

00:26:25   fast and what a comparatively short time [TS]

00:26:28   they still seem to load slow that's the [TS]

00:26:30   thing even have to ask [TS]

00:26:31   maybe that's their so it doesn't blow [TS]

00:26:33   our minds with your parents actually [TS]

00:26:35   remember it took me five minutes to turn [TS]

00:26:38   on this magical box all this computing [TS]

00:26:42   power and we spend it making podcasts [TS]

00:26:44   and quantity George Jetson ashley is the [TS]

00:26:48   i push the button twice today Jane have [TS]

00:26:53   you stopped this craziest great thing [TS]

00:26:55   yeah I let's talk about hackers and [TS]

00:27:00   leaving and I realized i have fond [TS]

00:27:02   memories of reading this book on a trip [TS]

00:27:05   I took to New York when I was in grad [TS]

00:27:07   school so I remember like riding the [TS]

00:27:09   train from out of New York City to white [TS]

00:27:12   plains and i was reading hackers by [TS]

00:27:13   Steven Levy and i don't know why that [TS]

00:27:15   place is it in 1993 i guess so i hope [TS]

00:27:18   you are reading a dial-up connection a [TS]

00:27:19   prodigy that that would have been [TS]

00:27:21   fitting well yes I might my order for my [TS]

00:27:24   first uh no I just taken delivery of my [TS]

00:27:26   first laptop mind my powerbook once [TS]

00:27:30   everything i had so i just gotten so [TS]

00:27:34   Steven Levy who now writes for medium i [TS]

00:27:37   guess and a thing for a major i guess [TS]

00:27:40   and yeah they're good [TS]

00:27:43   um and then before that worked wired in [TS]

00:27:45   Newsweek and has written many many books [TS]

00:27:49   about technology I think this is his [TS]

00:27:51   first gosh 1984 it was written on ya [TS]

00:27:56   go it's yeah I read it in grad school as [TS]

00:27:58   part of the course that we did on [TS]

00:28:00   culture and computers [TS]

00:28:01   yeah so this this is a this is the the [TS]

00:28:04   heroes of the computer revolution and it [TS]

00:28:06   is definitely the the old the old days [TS]

00:28:09   the old days of computers & and i have [TS]

00:28:12   to say that that is looking back at it [TS]

00:28:15   it's not as as compelling a story as [TS]

00:28:19   leave his books since have been so I [TS]

00:28:22   think he was still getting his feet wet [TS]

00:28:23   as a writer and some and honestly some [TS]

00:28:26   of the subject matter is kind of [TS]

00:28:28   esoteric there's a lot of 14 there's a [TS]

00:28:31   lot of love for MIT hackers and there's [TS]

00:28:33   a lot of richard stallman at mrs. [TS]

00:28:36   America and maybe it was a lot of [TS]

00:28:38   richard stallman it was a Christmas [TS]

00:28:40   story i find it interesting that so much [TS]

00:28:43   of some there's so much emphasis on the [TS]

00:28:46   Massachusetts nerd corridor in a lot of [TS]

00:28:48   these early books and i find it [TS]

00:28:51   interesting especially when you consider [TS]

00:28:53   like how much modern computer culture [TS]

00:28:57   popped up out of the west coast you have [TS]

00:28:58   like there's a brief mention of the well [TS]

00:29:01   but elantra remember those are what's [TS]

00:29:03   the reason was that mentioned in there [TS]

00:29:05   was a reason with all that was going on [TS]

00:29:07   the been the one they call that the Ring [TS]

00:29:08   Road the route 128 around ya around [TS]

00:29:11   Boston east coast bias thing you know [TS]

00:29:13   Stephen Levy's from Massachusetts nobody [TS]

00:29:16   was wearing a digital equipment [TS]

00:29:17   corporation bunch of customers with [TS]

00:29:19   Charlotte that's why i DG was I mean [TS]

00:29:21   that the ideapad McGovern stuff i mean [TS]

00:29:23   they they made great headway on the fact [TS]

00:29:25   that they were these big computer [TS]

00:29:27   companies sixties and seventies with [TS]

00:29:30   mainframes and on all that out in the [TS]

00:29:32   massachusetts area by Emerson armonk and [TS]

00:29:35   pepsi and so forth wasn't sea rocks out [TS]

00:29:38   there too [TS]

00:29:39   yes Xeroxes in remarks was in armonk I [TS]

00:29:41   think so [TS]

00:29:42   upstate New York migrate my grandfather [TS]

00:29:46   worked for IBM during the war he know [TS]

00:29:48   sorry [TS]

00:29:49   yeah but yeah I don't remember if it [TS]

00:29:51   wasn't it wasn't like the military [TS]

00:29:52   economy internal why there was a reason [TS]

00:29:54   there was a reason that was happening [TS]

00:29:56   there like my no I'm gonna go to East [TS]

00:29:58   Coast media bias discuss media bias is a [TS]

00:30:01   handy is a handy all just wave your hand [TS]

00:30:03   and say dismissive the East Coast media [TS]

00:30:04   bias there were no many computer [TS]

00:30:06   companies like in California [TS]

00:30:08   no this one this was I think interesting [TS]

00:30:09   about how we think of technology today [TS]

00:30:11   is that in these early days in the [TS]

00:30:12   seventies and eighties the the the [TS]

00:30:14   balance had not tipped to silicon valley [TS]

00:30:16   right this one now and i literally tip [TS]

00:30:19   to software when you think about it was [TS]

00:30:20   like renovation yeah well liked in for [TS]

00:30:23   people who haven't read it hackers [TS]

00:30:25   contains the story of the first people [TS]

00:30:27   to actually try to make money selling [TS]

00:30:28   software it turns out to be Bill Gates [TS]

00:30:30   and Paul Allen yeah so so ladies book [TS]

00:30:34   there's a lot of this kind of stuff that [TS]

00:30:35   is completely foreign even to me i mean [TS]

00:30:37   i first got access to a VAX system at [TS]

00:30:41   UCSD in 1982 fall of 88 [TS]

00:30:45   so I'd never sewed this stuff the early [TS]

00:30:49   sort of seventies early internet early [TS]

00:30:52   terminals and and all that was complete [TS]

00:30:56   complete you know its way before my time [TS]

00:30:58   and it sort of fascinating these are the [TS]

00:31:00   people for whom there was no platform to [TS]

00:31:02   build on [TS]

00:31:03   they were kind of building the platforms [TS]

00:31:05   and you got and their stories in there [TS]

00:31:06   about the homebrew Computer Club which [TS]

00:31:09   of course famously is a you know Steve [TS]

00:31:11   Wozniak was a part of and they're [TS]

00:31:12   building circuit boards and you know i [TS]

00:31:14   would have been a terrible computer nerd [TS]

00:31:16   in the seventies because I don't know [TS]

00:31:17   how to solder thanks and yeah I think [TS]

00:31:20   it's really interesting to think about [TS]

00:31:21   the fact that a lot of computing culture [TS]

00:31:26   came out of model railroad nerds [TS]

00:31:28   is that crazy they were building [TS]

00:31:30   controllers yeah there were the two [TS]

00:31:32   kinds of railroad nerves the kinds that [TS]

00:31:34   like the stuff above the table perfect [TS]

00:31:36   little models of trains and trees and [TS]

00:31:39   the guys like this nothing to know the [TS]

00:31:41   table where you had to figure out how [TS]

00:31:43   all the intersections woodwork and they [TS]

00:31:45   got to rewire things all night [TS]

00:31:47   this one you know I wasn't a computer [TS]

00:31:49   club in 1979 because there was a [TS]

00:31:52   computer store not far from my house and [TS]

00:31:54   they adopted because I was such a giant [TS]

00:31:55   nerd for a while that's where i got my [TS]

00:31:58   ohio scientific computer from they sold [TS]

00:31:59   apples and so forth and all the guys [TS]

00:32:01   they were much you know older they're [TS]

00:32:03   from there was a teenager their twenties [TS]

00:32:05   to their you know fifties or sixties and [TS]

00:32:07   there was a lot of hardware stuff a [TS]

00:32:09   number like no one time they're trying [TS]

00:32:11   to figure out some this dynamically [TS]

00:32:12   refreshing ran this super cool new thing [TS]

00:32:14   there's something wrong with writing [TS]

00:32:16   machine code to try to figure it out [TS]

00:32:17   there was one [TS]

00:32:18   bit that was broken so it would flip [TS]

00:32:20   from 0 to 1 it wouldn't be able to [TS]

00:32:22   refresh me at work around like that was [TS]

00:32:24   the kind of stuff you were doing in [TS]

00:32:26   1979-80 that's a kid is like it was it [TS]

00:32:28   was fun yet soldering irons and you know [TS]

00:32:31   you're working in assembly and things [TS]

00:32:32   like that it's very down to the you know [TS]

00:32:34   the metal anytime is the potential for [TS]

00:32:37   physical destruction is exciting [TS]

00:32:39   yeah burn things yeah computers don't [TS]

00:32:41   catch on fire like they used to you know [TS]

00:32:43   another really interesting thing and [TS]

00:32:45   hackers is the is the software story [TS]

00:32:47   especially at and you know warms my [TS]

00:32:51   heart [TS]

00:32:52   sierra on-line one of the first scooter [TS]

00:32:55   gaming and tech companies and Ken [TS]

00:32:57   Roberta Williams from there there read [TS]

00:32:59   out in what coarsegold or or uh where [TS]

00:33:02   it's up in the foothills there's likely [TS]

00:33:04   a couple places that they that they [TS]

00:33:05   incorporated near Yosemite not too far [TS]

00:33:08   from where I grew up and that's where [TS]

00:33:10   see you're online was and I made altima [TS]

00:33:12   and and a whole bunch of other games [TS]

00:33:15   oakhurst was the famous I think [TS]

00:33:17   incorporated location oakhurst [TS]

00:33:19   california and i think that was leaving [TS]

00:33:21   trying to get away from the MIT I think [TS]

00:33:23   so guess because he could have if you [TS]

00:33:25   need a game company he could have [TS]

00:33:26   written about infocomm but then a bunch [TS]

00:33:29   of MIT guys another day another group of [TS]

00:33:32   any guys as MIT guys everywhere huh [TS]

00:33:35   so instead they you know they talk about [TS]

00:33:36   sierra on-line and and some other stuff [TS]

00:33:39   like that which was which was fun [TS]

00:33:41   because I play actually played those [TS]

00:33:42   games and so to see those people trying [TS]

00:33:44   to make it and again software in those [TS]

00:33:46   days with problematic just like it is [TS]

00:33:47   today piracy was a thing then is a thing [TS]

00:33:49   now again saying a lot of the issues [TS]

00:33:52   that come up in these books we we not [TS]

00:33:54   knowingly are like yes that would [TS]

00:33:56   continue to be an issue to the present [TS]

00:33:58   day maybe not so much for catching on [TS]

00:33:59   fire [TS]

00:34:00   yeah but like i said that i love this [TS]

00:34:04   book really enjoy the many kinds of [TS]

00:34:09   weirdo that led to her community culture [TS]

00:34:12   i do wish there was more california in [TS]

00:34:15   it [TS]

00:34:15   the people at berkeley i think [TS]

00:34:19   especially because of the well did more [TS]

00:34:22   to influence how the internet thinks now [TS]

00:34:25   may I think they're going to build the [TS]

00:34:27   computers but only so much you can stick [TS]

00:34:29   in a book that's a really [TS]

00:34:31   interesting insight Monty the idea that [TS]

00:34:33   the people who kind of operated on top [TS]

00:34:34   and use the tools did more influence [TS]

00:34:36   than the people actually built the tools [TS]

00:34:38   so a book like where wizard stay up late [TS]

00:34:40   which wasn't in the in the Charter for [TS]

00:34:42   this can be happier Matthew lion book [TS]

00:34:44   that is the that is a good origins of [TS]

00:34:46   the internet book there there are a [TS]

00:34:49   bunch of other other sort of similar [TS]

00:34:51   similar books but I think you're right [TS]

00:34:52   you're right about that this is a dense [TS]

00:34:54   book on lots it's like there's a lot to [TS]

00:34:58   my paper back it's like the type is not [TS]

00:35:00   very big and there are a whole lot of [TS]

00:35:01   pages so there's a whole lot of [TS]

00:35:02   different stories of of this history [TS]

00:35:06   alright can I talk about the Cuckoo's [TS]

00:35:08   egg please i love that book so much so [TS]

00:35:12   I'll i do too i love tokens egg and when [TS]

00:35:15   we had the chance to revisit it here [TS]

00:35:19   I jumped at the chance to go back and [TS]

00:35:21   reread it i don't read a lot of books [TS]

00:35:23   it helps that I forgotten everything [TS]

00:35:25   that happened in it so i got to be I got [TS]

00:35:28   to enjoy that story again for those who [TS]

00:35:31   haven't read it the Cuckoo's egg it's a [TS]

00:35:32   mystery [TS]

00:35:33   essentially it's a it's a mystery story [TS]

00:35:35   of a guy cliff Stoll is Berkeley hippie [TS]

00:35:38   right spike to work at uphill to the [TS]

00:35:42   Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory he's an [TS]

00:35:44   astrophysicist he's basically just doing [TS]

00:35:46   this is a day job in between star gigs [TS]

00:35:48   yeah they basically lost if they didn't [TS]

00:35:51   have an astro a uh an astronomy job for [TS]

00:35:54   him and so we they tried to keep his job [TS]

00:35:56   they transferred him to do I t even [TS]

00:35:59   though he was not really an IT guy and [TS]

00:36:00   there were the two kind of like stuffy [TS]

00:36:02   IT guys and at the Lawrence Berkeley Lab [TS]

00:36:04   but they let him you know they let him [TS]

00:36:06   he knew he knew a little bit about as a [TS]

00:36:08   computer's he was a computer like [TS]

00:36:11   enthusiasts and he also knew astronomy [TS]

00:36:13   and so was not a bad combination but [TS]

00:36:15   very early in his time as an IT guy [TS]

00:36:18   Lawrence Berkeley Lab they may find a [TS]

00:36:20   75-cent discrepancy on their accounting [TS]

00:36:25   system which leads him to discover that [TS]

00:36:27   there's been a hacker creating accounts [TS]

00:36:30   in there in there a computer and then [TS]

00:36:32   using the their accounts to tunnel to [TS]

00:36:35   other parts of essentially the internet [TS]

00:36:38   and this unfolds into a story that's [TS]

00:36:43   told across different state [TS]

00:36:45   it's and different countries and gets [TS]

00:36:47   the CIA the FBI the NSA and most [TS]

00:36:50   terrifyingly the German postal service [TS]

00:36:53   yeah and follow investigating what's [TS]

00:36:55   going on and there's this hippie this [TS]

00:36:58   anti-authoritarian hippie is is like I [TS]

00:37:01   would normally have nothing to do with [TS]

00:37:03   anything but i just want to do the right [TS]

00:37:04   thing here and he gets crap from his [TS]

00:37:06   friends who are like why are you why are [TS]

00:37:07   you meeting with the CIA man this guy is [TS]

00:37:10   a hacker guy he's just looking around [TS]

00:37:11   he's cool yeah at this point in [TS]

00:37:15   computing history everybody felt that [TS]

00:37:18   everybody a lot of people help passwords [TS]

00:37:20   or wrong man yeah everything should be [TS]

00:37:22   everything man that was [TS]

00:37:25   government-funded or grant funded so [TS]

00:37:26   this gets to like the JSTOR argument [TS]

00:37:28   today of all the Aaron Swartz and all [TS]

00:37:30   that is like if all this is being funded [TS]

00:37:32   by public funds and Republicans it right [TS]

00:37:35   to elegant what's being active way [TS]

00:37:37   what's being kept secret unless it's you [TS]

00:37:38   know super secret government stuff and [TS]

00:37:40   then you have you know the war games / [TS]

00:37:42   real genius scenario right now I just [TS]

00:37:44   think it's interesting that some of the [TS]

00:37:46   very same people that were keenly in [TS]

00:37:48   favor of everything being opened at the [TS]

00:37:50   time have made a 180 degree turn to [TS]

00:37:54   being very into cryptography you think [TS]

00:37:56   yeah like actually everything's about [TS]

00:37:59   privacy the wrong [TS]

00:38:01   new plan helps it flips it around though [TS]

00:38:03   because the cryptography is to protect [TS]

00:38:05   you from the government to protect you [TS]

00:38:07   from not play the government from you [TS]

00:38:08   all I don't think they made a [TS]

00:38:09   fundamental philosophical change but [TS]

00:38:11   their tactics area had made from we [TS]

00:38:14   don't need passwords to we need [TS]

00:38:17   impossible to break passwords it [TS]

00:38:20   what I really love about this book is [TS]

00:38:21   how effortlessly he weaves his whole [TS]

00:38:23   happy birthday hippie existence like the [TS]

00:38:25   day he shines off work to go listen to [TS]

00:38:27   the Grateful Dead by parking himself on [TS]

00:38:29   a hillside and just like taking the [TS]

00:38:30   concept for free and there's like a [TS]

00:38:32   chapter that ends with his chocolate [TS]

00:38:33   chip cookie recipe and there's like an [TS]

00:38:36   interlude a free chapter he's like [TS]

00:38:38   making his wedding shirt while thinking [TS]

00:38:40   about work and I like the moment I [TS]

00:38:42   laughed out loud and couldn't stop that [TS]

00:38:44   there's a moment where he his shoes are [TS]

00:38:46   wet so he decides to dry them in the [TS]

00:38:48   microwave LC cloud of smoke and he [TS]

00:38:52   throws it throws it the shoes in the [TS]

00:38:54   glass of the microwave out onto the [TS]

00:38:56   driveway with shatters but then he's [TS]

00:38:58   going to [TS]

00:38:58   to fix it also we put some vanilla on [TS]

00:39:00   the stove and while he's cleaning but he [TS]

00:39:02   forgets that he's got the vanilla so [TS]

00:39:04   then that burns they decided an apology [TS]

00:39:06   to his girlfriend's gonna bake some [TS]

00:39:07   cookies but the cookie slide off of the [TS]

00:39:09   cookie sheet and onto the bottom and [TS]

00:39:10   they burn and this is the state that she [TS]

00:39:13   finds him in and it's just it'sit's very [TS]

00:39:15   funny also if you work at the at [TS]

00:39:16   Lawrence Berkeley Lab you're right [TS]

00:39:18   uphill from the Greek Theatre if the [TS]

00:39:19   Grateful better playing you're gonna be [TS]

00:39:21   listening regardless you might as well [TS]

00:39:22   go outside [TS]

00:39:24   yeah that's where he was he has he's [TS]

00:39:25   like it was a beautiful evening there's [TS]

00:39:27   some fog coming in and it just sounded [TS]

00:39:29   like such a great life you know it's a [TS]

00:39:30   it's a really well written book because [TS]

00:39:32   he combines being extremely technical it [TS]

00:39:36   spots with being extremely endearing [TS]

00:39:39   yes yes I was so much personality in [TS]

00:39:42   this book is a great character of of [TS]

00:39:44   this book because this is a mystery [TS]

00:39:45   story he's the investigator you've got [TS]

00:39:47   this [TS]

00:39:47   you couldn't write a better story right [TS]

00:39:49   it is it is this this shaggy hippie guy [TS]

00:39:53   he-he's berkeley guy but he also has a [TS]

00:39:55   scientist and he understands this stuff [TS]

00:39:57   and he's dogging in pursuit of this and [TS]

00:39:59   he knows that the person is doing [TS]

00:40:00   something wrong even though a lot of [TS]

00:40:03   culture says it's okay he knows that [TS]

00:40:05   something is going wrong here and it [TS]

00:40:07   leads him down this path where where you [TS]

00:40:09   know he's got all of the the nice things [TS]

00:40:12   about his character that that his you [TS]

00:40:14   know is his girlfriend and that roommate [TS]

00:40:16   and and they come up with a whole crazy [TS]

00:40:18   plot while while taking a shower and [TS]

00:40:20   operation showerhead yeah all this great [TS]

00:40:22   stuff Enya and then also you've got the [TS]

00:40:24   mystery I mean you it's such a it's a [TS]

00:40:26   great combination and it's just so much [TS]

00:40:27   about the period where he's like [TS]

00:40:30   literally calling up law enforcement [TS]

00:40:32   saying hey there people from like we [TS]

00:40:35   don't know we're breaking into [TS]

00:40:37   government things and doing searches for [TS]

00:40:39   four straight nuclear weapons and Star [TS]

00:40:42   Wars program and things like that and [TS]

00:40:45   the response is are they stealing money [TS]

00:40:48   well then we're not interested computer [TS]

00:40:49   crime that's not a thing [TS]

00:40:51   why did you put those two words together [TS]

00:40:53   strangely you can still have that [TS]

00:40:54   conversation with law enforcement today [TS]

00:40:56   is the amazing art so the more things [TS]

00:40:58   change the more they stay the same I [TS]

00:40:59   thought I was struck by that there's [TS]

00:41:01   still a question of who are the police [TS]

00:41:03   of of the internet and the answer is the [TS]

00:41:05   kind of aren't any and all that the [TS]

00:41:07   tactics have changed the the attitude [TS]

00:41:09   the law enforcement often has I [TS]

00:41:11   he finds sympathetic people but even [TS]

00:41:13   with the sympathetic people he finds are [TS]

00:41:15   more concerned about using him to prove [TS]

00:41:16   a point which is that there are people [TS]

00:41:18   that security is bad like I i love the [TS]

00:41:22   fact that he keeps talking about these [TS]

00:41:24   systems that all ship with their with [TS]

00:41:26   with no passwords they are default [TS]

00:41:28   passwords like that's out-of-the-box [TS]

00:41:30   they come with fully privilege system [TS]

00:41:32   administrator accounts with a stock [TS]

00:41:34   password and unless you change it [TS]

00:41:37   somebody can just get in so that's bad [TS]

00:41:39   but what's even worse is there's a part [TS]

00:41:41   of the book where somebody that i think [TS]

00:41:43   the the the Air Force talks to somebody [TS]

00:41:45   at an Air Force Base and basically says [TS]

00:41:47   change all the passwords and six months [TS]

00:41:49   later he finds that there's a break in [TS]

00:41:52   there and the guys like I told them to [TS]

00:41:54   change the passwords did they just [TS]

00:41:55   didn't do it well and then you but then [TS]

00:41:57   you have every router in America [TS]

00:41:58   everyone in the world ships with the [TS]

00:42:00   password admin you find things like all [TS]

00:42:02   the voting machines in America by some [TS]

00:42:04   company has the password 1234 that ever [TS]

00:42:06   been changed at the TSA holds up [TS]

00:42:09   pictures of their close-up keys for a [TS]

00:42:11   photograph of their master luggage keys [TS]

00:42:13   like nothing has changed yeah they [TS]

00:42:15   actually Madison hack from what i read [TS]

00:42:18   happened because their system password [TS]

00:42:20   was password 1234 [TS]

00:42:22   oh my god and that's our company guys [TS]

00:42:24   entire business model is 100-percent [TS]

00:42:27   data security here I really i re-read [TS]

00:42:30   couch like a few times and I think I [TS]

00:42:32   read it last a while ago but I remember [TS]

00:42:34   very distinctly I would always liked him [TS]

00:42:36   because he was self aware of read books [TS]

00:42:38   like that like you read on the jonmar [TS]

00:42:40   coughs book or he wrote it with to tomo [TS]

00:42:43   show more I which was right let's see [TS]

00:42:45   the few years later that was a takedown [TS]

00:42:47   about the kevin Mitnick so the thing [TS]

00:42:50   there is written to tomah was the guy [TS]

00:42:51   who helped take him down and Mark off [TS]

00:42:54   came on to write the book and there's a [TS]

00:42:56   lot of questions about how particularly [TS]

00:42:58   accurate the story is whether Mitnick [TS]

00:43:00   actually did you know damages all these [TS]

00:43:02   things about you know what he actually [TS]

00:43:03   steal using social engineering all that [TS]

00:43:05   but i think that book is very serious [TS]

00:43:08   it's like there's a sky is running and [TS]

00:43:10   we're finding him there's this [TS]

00:43:11   relentless pursuer who's a genius [TS]

00:43:12   computers like cliff Stoll book is like [TS]

00:43:14   I'm is total goofball and he knows any [TS]

00:43:17   revels in his own goofiness enjoys it [TS]

00:43:19   and he has those coming to [TS]

00:43:21   god-knows-where you talk about where you [TS]

00:43:22   go you know he's like what am i doing [TS]

00:43:24   lawn for [TS]

00:43:24   people ask me why my pursuing this so [TS]

00:43:27   there's that nice amount of [TS]

00:43:28   self-reflection that makes the book [TS]

00:43:30   enjoyable gives you a position as a [TS]

00:43:31   reader to have sympathy for him and also [TS]

00:43:34   in enjoy it but you know I don't know I [TS]

00:43:37   think it's that the story as a whole is [TS]

00:43:39   you agree with it like something is [TS]

00:43:41   wrong here like you know there's [TS]

00:43:42   something not right and it should be put [TS]

00:43:45   correct but it's very very hard to make [TS]

00:43:47   that happen [TS]

00:43:48   yeah and it helps that at the end you [TS]

00:43:50   find out it's german hackers being paid [TS]

00:43:53   by the Russian government that the KGB [TS]

00:43:55   KGB are paying for secrets from these [TS]

00:43:59   german hackers and in any fantastic [TS]

00:44:01   twist they set up so one of my favorite [TS]

00:44:04   things in the book is a set of this [TS]

00:44:05   operation showerhead where they invent a [TS]

00:44:08   character who's a secretary at LBL they [TS]

00:44:10   invent an entire division called SDI net [TS]

00:44:14   which has strategic defense initiative [TS]

00:44:15   is the code for the Ronald Reagan's Star [TS]

00:44:17   Wars project so they set this all up [TS]

00:44:19   they create I get the sense to that at [TS]

00:44:22   this point he his he mentioned it a few [TS]

00:44:24   points like he is spending a lot of time [TS]

00:44:26   on this because they invent dozens or [TS]

00:44:29   hundreds of documents about SDI net just [TS]

00:44:31   to create this honey pot and and you [TS]

00:44:34   know the hacker seems interested at [TS]

00:44:36   first he dumped some of the files you [TS]

00:44:38   know he comes back a little bit later [TS]

00:44:39   but seems to have lost some interest in [TS]

00:44:41   it and then they get a letter for the [TS]

00:44:46   fictitious secretary and they're like [TS]

00:44:49   what the hell just happened and it's [TS]

00:44:51   from most part in pittsburgh [TS]

00:44:52   pennsylvania and it's from a guy with a [TS]

00:44:54   Hungarian name and it turns out that [TS]

00:44:56   he's basically somebody that you know [TS]

00:44:58   the KGB checker the KGB called somebody [TS]

00:45:01   who call somebody who sends who then [TS]

00:45:03   they say mail this letter they hand him [TS]

00:45:05   a letter and emails the letter a sign [TS]

00:45:08   and mail this and yeah they're checking [TS]

00:45:10   up on this on the secrets that are being [TS]

00:45:12   sold to them how crazy is that and this [TS]

00:45:14   is all just these cookies in Berkeley [TS]

00:45:15   who r RA yeah whatever chicken streaker [TS]

00:45:19   if we could like get someone in the snag [TS]

00:45:21   called Operation showerhead and then it [TS]

00:45:22   happens inside go oh my gosh [TS]

00:45:24   but that's another funny thing in this [TS]

00:45:27   book is that one of the people he meets [TS]

00:45:30   one of the spea CIA guys he meets a guy [TS]

00:45:33   named Robert Morris who basically him [TS]

00:45:35   away [TS]

00:45:36   sweeps away and take some somewhere to [TS]

00:45:38   meet this and they get and he gets he [TS]

00:45:41   gets like a certificate of appreciation [TS]

00:45:44   they're like that come on the guy from [TS]

00:45:45   berkeley want something he's helped us [TS]

00:45:46   out here now that nobody tells the story [TS]

00:45:49   about like talking this guy who's got [TS]

00:45:50   all these questions about astronomy he's [TS]

00:45:52   obviously an astronomy nut and and he [TS]

00:45:55   gets the sense like there's always [TS]

00:45:56   throughout this information like [TS]

00:45:58   astronomy and dealing with the CIA that [TS]

00:46:00   the keyhole satellites are floating in [TS]

00:46:01   the background there's like nobody talks [TS]

00:46:03   about the keyhole satellite but like [TS]

00:46:04   imagine what if there was a hubble space [TS]

00:46:06   telescope pointing the other way he's [TS]

00:46:08   like well that was oh say no more right [TS]

00:46:10   so he talks to this robert morris guy [TS]

00:46:12   and tells the story about about how he's [TS]

00:46:14   a chain smoker any and he drives the [TS]

00:46:16   windows rolled up in the winter and in [TS]

00:46:18   Maryland and he almost dies in the car [TS]

00:46:20   of asphyxiation from this and I and and [TS]

00:46:23   you know knowing it now you realize what [TS]

00:46:25   he's setting up which is one of the last [TS]

00:46:26   chapters of the book and it's kind of [TS]

00:46:28   not relevant to his story but it's just [TS]

00:46:29   too good not to put in the book is that [TS]

00:46:31   Robert Morris his son is the guy who did [TS]

00:46:35   the first big internet worm and shut [TS]

00:46:38   down like thousands of computers i want [TS]

00:46:41   boy was in college and so that at the [TS]

00:46:43   end of the book that story comes up and [TS]

00:46:45   it's really funny because he said but [TS]

00:46:46   you know it's like it's it's that guy's [TS]

00:46:48   kid who did this and that guys like he's [TS]

00:46:50   a cyber security guy at the CIA but his [TS]

00:46:53   kid shut down half the internet with his [TS]

00:46:55   with the first internetwork yeah he [TS]

00:46:57   sneaks it up on you because it's the [TS]

00:46:59   character the father's is called Bob [TS]

00:47:02   Morris Morrison exclusively and then [TS]

00:47:04   there's a chapter they know that this [TS]

00:47:06   new world was created by somebody named [TS]

00:47:07   rtm and they can't figure out who that [TS]

00:47:09   is [TS]

00:47:10   yeah and Bob horses like it's robert [TS]

00:47:13   robert morris jr true story but so [TS]

00:47:17   that's what that's a crazy thing to so I [TS]

00:47:19   i highly recommend this book just [TS]

00:47:20   because it's fun but but what's funny [TS]

00:47:23   about it is that these issues it's all [TS]

00:47:25   different today right i mean now we've [TS]

00:47:27   got cryptography the actions that people [TS]

00:47:29   like the the hacker who stole is chasing [TS]

00:47:33   are far more complicated today they but [TS]

00:47:37   you know at the same time they're not [TS]

00:47:38   that different the tools are different [TS]

00:47:40   the tools are more sophisticated but [TS]

00:47:42   it's still a game being played today [TS]

00:47:43   it's just being played at a edit on a [TS]

00:47:46   different board than it was back then [TS]

00:47:48   yeah yeah it's um it's funny how much it [TS]

00:47:52   seemed like well that's a blip and [TS]

00:47:54   they'll fix it i think even in those [TS]

00:47:57   days as like well this is sort of [TS]

00:47:58   hilarious in an apt but you know it'll [TS]

00:48:01   get better and then the more i was [TS]

00:48:02   working you know started doing stuff on [TS]

00:48:04   the internet 94 I had my password file [TS]

00:48:05   stolen and sent to me and 96 by somebody [TS]

00:48:09   and you know I've had peace [TS]

00:48:11   yeah i was still encrypted in but you [TS]

00:48:13   know was taken and I had some break-ins [TS]

00:48:15   in those days which is something that [TS]

00:48:16   happens in this book is they don't know [TS]

00:48:18   why they're stealing the password files [TS]

00:48:19   and they realize they're doing a [TS]

00:48:20   dictionary y'all search offline of the [TS]

00:48:23   password file and finding the single [TS]

00:48:25   word passwords that match some of those [TS]

00:48:27   passwords probably still in use [TS]

00:48:29   probably oh that's four years later [TS]

00:48:30   Robert yeah it's not it's just nothing [TS]

00:48:32   got better everything that works because [TS]

00:48:34   number lessons learned at that time [TS]

00:48:36   wherever really put into effect there [TS]

00:48:38   were no regulations and you know [TS]

00:48:40   regulations don't work obviously by [TS]

00:48:41   themselves but it didn't become like [TS]

00:48:43   standard practice it wasn't concerned [TS]

00:48:45   computer companies want to make things [TS]

00:48:46   as fast as possible [TS]

00:48:48   going back to the soul of a new machine [TS]

00:48:50   is you gotta ship and you gotta ship [TS]

00:48:52   insecurity something you do later years [TS]

00:48:54   later and that's still pay the price [TS]

00:48:56   one of the biggest disconnect I had to [TS]

00:48:58   cover our essay this year the security [TS]

00:49:00   conference and one of the biggest [TS]

00:49:01   disconnects i had was I would sit in [TS]

00:49:03   keynote after keynote where you'd have [TS]

00:49:05   sea level executives and CSO and people [TS]

00:49:07   who are Troubleshooters and fight the [TS]

00:49:09   stuff for living saying there is no [TS]

00:49:11   technological solution you have to work [TS]

00:49:14   on human behavior and it and then I [TS]

00:49:17   would walk onto the show floor and [TS]

00:49:19   Moscow knee east and west were both [TS]

00:49:22   taken up with with nothing but vendors [TS]

00:49:24   promising all manner of hardware and [TS]

00:49:25   software solution get your get your [TS]

00:49:27   technological solutions i saw a [TS]

00:49:29   commercial saying our kids will not have [TS]

00:49:30   to worry about passwords at all [TS]

00:49:32   well you know what in the RSA thing that [TS]

00:49:34   the two that the front that things keep [TS]

00:49:36   popping overview of where everyone kept [TS]

00:49:37   saying we live in a post node world we [TS]

00:49:39   have to assume that anyone anywhere can [TS]

00:49:42   leak your information that's that's your [TS]

00:49:44   assumption is that your systems are [TS]

00:49:45   inherently unsafe because people use [TS]

00:49:46   them and that and then they move on to [TS]

00:49:49   the only thing you can really do is [TS]

00:49:51   invest in human capital human behavior [TS]

00:49:53   and you have to work on on behavioral [TS]

00:49:55   training because technology can't do [TS]

00:49:57   that for people and yet i walked on the [TS]

00:49:59   show floor and I thought okay surely [TS]

00:50:01   there's some enter [TS]

00:50:01   prising consultants or something or like [TS]

00:50:03   we dispatch a team of nerds to brainwash [TS]

00:50:06   your people into practicing decent [TS]

00:50:08   security [TS]

00:50:08   no it's all you know install the [TS]

00:50:10   software and and you can nanny your [TS]

00:50:12   users this way you can monitor that you [TS]

00:50:14   can block this you can do that you can [TS]

00:50:16   make them change their password to [TS]

00:50:17   another 12 character password every two [TS]

00:50:19   weeks that will be high security if you [TS]

00:50:22   look at you if you look at the Cuckoo's [TS]

00:50:24   egg which again highly recommend i think [TS]

00:50:27   anybody would like it on the the wood [TS]

00:50:31   the lesson I take away from it is it [TS]

00:50:33   it's yes it seems kind of like an [TS]

00:50:36   innocent time and yet it also says that [TS]

00:50:39   in the in 1986 and 87 on the roots you [TS]

00:50:44   know on the early internet where there [TS]

00:50:48   were you know people had pcs and macs [TS]

00:50:50   and stuff but thats so much was going on [TS]

00:50:52   in these backs and unix systems that [TS]

00:50:53   were out there accent EMS systems that [TS]

00:50:56   all of all or most of the problems that [TS]

00:50:59   we see today were already there [TS]

00:51:02   it's just a matter of degree and that [TS]

00:51:04   the world of the world is different and [TS]

00:51:07   simpler in some ways back then it was [TS]

00:51:10   but it in other ways not different at [TS]

00:51:13   all because it's the same issues dogs to [TS]

00:51:16   this day about security about the people [TS]

00:51:18   problems with security about insecure [TS]

00:51:21   software being fundamental problem its [TS]

00:51:25   it and organizations being incapable of [TS]

00:51:27   handling it and at several points [TS]

00:51:29   they're like they just want to shut [TS]

00:51:30   their their door to the hacker and they [TS]

00:51:32   know the actor will just find other ways [TS]

00:51:33   in and they will lose their ability to [TS]

00:51:35   to follow him and people and and you [TS]

00:51:38   know the functionaries that these [TS]

00:51:39   organizations are like I just know i'm [TS]

00:51:40   just going to close the hole and move on [TS]

00:51:41   with my life and so no you can't but [TS]

00:51:44   that and let you know that kind of stuff [TS]

00:51:45   still happens today so on that level I [TS]

00:51:47   think it's you know it's quaint [TS]

00:51:49   technology wise but totally applicable [TS]

00:51:52   to the issues that the technology world [TS]

00:51:55   faces even today I think can we talk [TS]

00:51:58   about a few other books briefly yes [TS]

00:51:59   before we do let's talk about who [TS]

00:52:01   everything else that's in the idea if [TS]

00:52:03   that's any seller or the Attic wherever [TS]

00:52:06   you keep your books about technology [TS]

00:52:08   from the eighties and nineties but i can [TS]

00:52:10   go fast yeah okay well for something [TS]

00:52:11   that the media lab post states [TS]

00:52:14   sold in the Machine and it predates [TS]

00:52:17   microservices Hannah Kash it's actually [TS]

00:52:21   kind of the Middle Ages microservice 95 [TS]

00:52:23   right media lab is the 88 and Stewart [TS]

00:52:27   Brand who is catalog right the media lab [TS]

00:52:31   I remember reading this thing and it [TS]

00:52:32   blew my mind the late 1980s because it [TS]

00:52:35   was about this incredible institute of [TS]

00:52:37   the future in which sorry this is the [TS]

00:52:39   future is another thing not [TS]

00:52:41   yeah and so the yes you read this yes I [TS]

00:52:44   understand it's incredible and it [TS]

00:52:46   totally shaped and influenced my life [TS]

00:52:48   said this is what I want more so than [TS]

00:52:50   other books i read it and said this is [TS]

00:52:52   what I want I want technology that's [TS]

00:52:54   meaningful that has an artistic [TS]

00:52:56   component that's something I get my [TS]

00:52:58   hands into and that could help change [TS]

00:53:00   the world and maybe it's cool but it's [TS]

00:53:02   not about money it's about doing things [TS]

00:53:04   that are transformative and then I was [TS]

00:53:05   lucky enough after college I went to [TS]

00:53:08   work for this division of kodak all the [TS]

00:53:09   center for creative imaging which was [TS]

00:53:11   created specifically to be a little bit [TS]

00:53:13   like the media lab without any resources [TS]

00:53:15   not the whole story but i gotta have a [TS]

00:53:17   little taste of what it was like to be [TS]

00:53:19   in a Camelot of like super creative [TS]

00:53:21   artistic people coming together an [TS]

00:53:22   intersection of Technology culture you [TS]

00:53:25   know art and business and it was like oh [TS]

00:53:26   you know and that's something i've [TS]

00:53:28   wanted to recapture but i think the book [TS]

00:53:30   is incredible slice and I just went to [TS]

00:53:32   the media lab never been there before i [TS]

00:53:33   visited it with a friend whose grad [TS]

00:53:35   student their post grad student and he'd [TS]

00:53:38   be too around the whole place and it's [TS]

00:53:39   you know they had it's bigger it's very [TS]

00:53:40   expensive but it continues to further [TS]

00:53:42   this mission and really really [TS]

00:53:44   interesting stuff continues to come out [TS]

00:53:46   of it i just winds up going often more [TS]

00:53:48   quickly into commerce than necessarily [TS]

00:53:51   having an impact on culture but it still [TS]

00:53:53   let's wear a lot of ideas from the [TS]

00:53:54   Bitcoin the guy who's the main guy [TS]

00:53:56   behind bitcoin now works at MIT because [TS]

00:53:58   his group at the media lab because the [TS]

00:54:00   group that was supposed to foster [TS]

00:54:02   Bitcoin fell apart and Sony labs like [TS]

00:54:04   eight you come here with some other [TS]

00:54:05   people will do a cryptocurrency group [TS]

00:54:07   and we'll just pay for your celery so we [TS]

00:54:09   can keep Bitcoin software going someone [TS]

00:54:12   and just quickly like being digital by [TS]

00:54:14   nicholas negroponte and everything that [TS]

00:54:16   was four years ago [TS]

00:54:17   yeah about it Sammy lab this is eight [TS]

00:54:19   years later he was the head of the media [TS]

00:54:20   lab and then drove it through its [TS]

00:54:23   tremendous growth there's what the [TS]

00:54:24   Dormouse said which is a doormouse said [TS]

00:54:27   which is a subtitles how the sixties [TS]

00:54:30   counterculture shape the personal [TS]

00:54:31   computer industry market value and [TS]

00:54:32   marketing 2006 it's a really lovely book [TS]

00:54:36   and Stuart brands in there and kevin [TS]

00:54:37   kelly and all these interesting people [TS]

00:54:39   you know Steve Jobs all the people who [TS]

00:54:41   founded companies and it's a look at [TS]

00:54:43   like I really legitimate look about how [TS]

00:54:45   drugs and a new ways of thinking [TS]

00:54:48   actually did open up this does for [TS]

00:54:50   people that led directly into stuff that [TS]

00:54:53   was commercial and the one thing I'll [TS]

00:54:55   say about fake steve jobs his book I [TS]

00:54:57   don't necessarily recommend reading [TS]

00:54:58   isn't that bad is that I think his non [TS]

00:55:01   is fictional book about jobs actually [TS]

00:55:04   cracked part of that code in a way that [TS]

00:55:06   dormouse is really the nonfiction [TS]

00:55:07   version of how you take utopian ideals [TS]

00:55:10   and mind explaining expanding I you know [TS]

00:55:13   drugs other stuff and you turn it into [TS]

00:55:14   something people can hold in their hand [TS]

00:55:16   and it has this effect on them as if [TS]

00:55:18   they're part of it even though it's just [TS]

00:55:19   purely an object so that those are mine [TS]

00:55:22   that's my arrangements I've got a book [TS]

00:55:24   i'd like to throw in yeah if people [TS]

00:55:26   enjoyed hackers and what to really [TS]

00:55:28   immerse themselves in these people i [TS]

00:55:32   really like the new hackers dictionary [TS]

00:55:34   yes the third edition i think is the [TS]

00:55:38   last edition that was published as a [TS]

00:55:39   book it was edited by eric s Raymond [TS]

00:55:41   America he was inexplicably nominated [TS]

00:55:44   for best new writer for the hugo this [TS]

00:55:46   year based on one short story but [TS]

00:55:49   obviously the distance unexplainable but [TS]

00:55:52   that's not so fast [TS]

00:55:53   that's how about an explainable he wrote [TS]

00:55:55   one story anyway it has been [TS]

00:55:59   luckily moved online and you can just [TS]

00:56:02   wallow in the ridiculous lingo of lots [TS]

00:56:07   of different hacker subcultures the sort [TS]

00:56:11   of people who look at El Camino rial a [TS]

00:56:13   long road in California and say that's [TS]

00:56:15   way too long to be a real number and [TS]

00:56:18   it's just I'm calling it el camino [TS]

00:56:19   bignum because that's the kind of number [TS]

00:56:22   that can hold more digits [TS]

00:56:25   right by i like how we all decided that [TS]

00:56:31   but that it is a great document of the [TS]

00:56:37   hackers era people the the only 1 i've [TS]

00:56:41   got is back when I got the Cuckoo's egg [TS]

00:56:43   and soul of the new machine and all the [TS]

00:56:45   other one that I read was the hacker [TS]

00:56:47   crackdown law and disorder on the [TS]

00:56:49   Electronic Frontier by bruce sterling [TS]

00:56:51   i'm gonna have sterling that I don't [TS]

00:56:55   remember it at all i think it was like a [TS]

00:56:57   federal statute that Bruce Sterling had [TS]

00:56:59   to be on everybody's bookshelf from 1992 [TS]

00:57:02   1999 that was about the big secret [TS]

00:57:04   service attack that led to the eff and [TS]

00:57:09   yeah focused on the Steve Jackson games [TS]

00:57:11   attack i read a book that was kind of [TS]

00:57:13   written attempted to be written the [TS]

00:57:14   Spirit of the books are talking about [TS]

00:57:16   and it was one of the most depressing [TS]

00:57:18   books are written in a while that was [TS]

00:57:19   Scott Rosenberg dreaming and code [TS]

00:57:21   oh I love that woman it's kinda [TS]

00:57:23   depressing because you think about all [TS]

00:57:24   of the work that went into it and they [TS]

00:57:25   still don't have a complete product and [TS]

00:57:27   like any epilogue he's like well i'm [TS]

00:57:29   still using google calendar because i [TS]

00:57:31   know these guys are smart they worked [TS]

00:57:32   really hard but a that because I think [TS]

00:57:38   the best explanation for non-programmers [TS]

00:57:40   i think a non program could read the [TS]

00:57:41   book and go oh this is why software ever [TS]

00:57:44   ships [TS]

00:57:45   yeah yeah yeah it's it's just it's just [TS]

00:57:48   so depressing in a way because you're [TS]

00:57:50   you're reading it and you're thinking [TS]

00:57:51   about all of the people who poured their [TS]

00:57:53   time in their energy and their passion [TS]

00:57:55   and they just keep getting tripped up by [TS]

00:57:57   out like each other or even things that [TS]

00:57:59   are breaking the code or people's [TS]

00:58:01   endless quest for perfection like a lot [TS]

00:58:03   of this book is about how perfect is the [TS]

00:58:04   enemy of good [TS]

00:58:06   yes and it's it's it's the kind of book [TS]

00:58:09   where if it had come out like in the [TS]

00:58:11   eighties and nineties i think a lot of [TS]

00:58:12   people like wow those software engineers [TS]

00:58:14   will learn their kind of crazy and my [TS]

00:58:16   goodness and now you're like oh god yeah [TS]

00:58:19   corporate life it's but it was [TS]

00:58:22   interesting as it really is written in [TS]

00:58:23   the spirit of the books from the [TS]

00:58:25   eighties and nineties in this by Scott [TS]

00:58:26   Rosenberg who is one of who used to be [TS]

00:58:28   like a really big over at salon and they [TS]

00:58:32   were like way back in the news they were [TS]

00:58:34   kind of spiritual successor to like the [TS]

00:58:36   whole Clifford stole we are hippies who [TS]

00:58:38   just really [TS]

00:58:39   of life in technology and things are [TS]

00:58:40   cool man and be suspicious of authority [TS]

00:58:43   and I think Rosen you have to look at [TS]

00:58:45   the tone rosenberg took and shaping tech [TS]

00:58:48   coverage from salon from like the [TS]

00:58:49   mid-nineties to that the mid-autumn ease [TS]

00:58:51   and and it's very much tied into the [TS]

00:58:54   books have been talking about [TS]

00:58:55   I only 1i want to mention since we [TS]

00:58:58   talked about Steven Levy and I I said [TS]

00:59:00   yeah actresses goes I remember all those [TS]

00:59:02   super dense i will recommend you i would [TS]

00:59:06   insanely great is a great story of the [TS]

00:59:09   invention of the Macintosh was that it [TS]

00:59:12   is a computer that was used apparently [TS]

00:59:15   by people in Microsoft in 1995 I don't [TS]

00:59:17   really understand how that could be but [TS]

00:59:19   anyway it's a no see if you were [TS]

00:59:21   Canadian if you were yes sure it's a [TS]

00:59:24   it's a very very good history of the [TS]

00:59:26   creation of the mac which we have lots [TS]

00:59:28   of great stories and then when you're [TS]

00:59:29   done there you can also read full glory [TS]

00:59:31   dot-org which has got a bunch of stories [TS]

00:59:33   about that same era by the people who [TS]

00:59:35   worked on the original mac team and that [TS]

00:59:37   got turned into a book that is called [TS]

00:59:41   what is it uh-oh it's called revolution [TS]

00:59:45   in the valley which is a which is a [TS]

00:59:47   version of that same that's a Herzfeld [TS]

00:59:50   and company and their and their stories [TS]

00:59:52   about inventing the max oh those are [TS]

00:59:53   those are fun books and I like crypto to [TS]

00:59:57   buy him which is a an early cryptography [TS]

00:59:59   book [TS]

00:59:59   book [TS]

01:00:00   my true 2001 about how cryptography [TS]

01:00:04   works by much one more thing or it's [TS]

01:00:07   actually five were things haha also [TS]

01:00:10   alright so that the brief thing I'd say [TS]

01:00:12   is that it's interesting to see how [TS]

01:00:13   these kinds of books come out today [TS]

01:00:15   because you have books like hatching [TS]

01:00:16   Twitter by nick bilton New York Times [TS]

01:00:18   know you have a long tail Chris [TS]

01:00:22   Andersen's from few years back but that [TS]

01:00:23   lack the everything store by bradstone [TS]

01:00:25   get big fast was the first big amazon [TS]

01:00:29   book in 2002 and i'm in a couple of his [TS]

01:00:31   books I mean laughter I'm going but the [TS]

01:00:34   the thing that's interesting at a known [TS]

01:00:36   makers another Chris Andersen book that [TS]

01:00:37   I quite liked which is kind of about the [TS]

01:00:39   maker movement before Chris wound up [TS]

01:00:40   having to his own life from being an [TS]

01:00:42   editor-in-chief of wire to being the [TS]

01:00:43   head of 3d robotics a drone making [TS]

01:00:45   company which is a great story itself [TS]

01:00:47   and these modern books about it I feel [TS]

01:00:51   like there's much less of people [TS]

01:00:53   involved makers is an exception but i [TS]

01:00:54   think these books are so much business [TS]

01:00:57   stuff going on everything is happening [TS]

01:00:58   in such an accelerated pace and [TS]

01:01:00   everything typically involves billions [TS]

01:01:02   of dollars for millions of items or a [TS]

01:01:04   trillions of Records I was talking to [TS]

01:01:05   accompany the day ago game company those [TS]

01:01:08   online the legal league-of-legends [TS]

01:01:10   league-of-legends they literally don't [TS]

01:01:12   know how much data they collect every [TS]

01:01:13   day it's so huge they have trillions of [TS]

01:01:15   data points toward databases and so the [TS]

01:01:18   scale is so big I think outpaces [TS]

01:01:20   humanity and you read stories and I feel [TS]

01:01:22   like there's less humanity in them [TS]

01:01:24   because the the components have now [TS]

01:01:26   become so big and I want to read some [TS]

01:01:28   more narrative nonfiction that's more [TS]

01:01:30   like soul of a new machine that gets us [TS]

01:01:32   back to the heart of people what will [TS]

01:01:34   they what books will they write about us [TS]

01:01:35   they're probably already looks it's [TS]

01:01:38   gonna be a series of tweets my storify [TS]

01:01:40   is the greater is the response everybody [TS]

01:01:43   with a start-up thinks they're going to [TS]

01:01:45   be the next big thing so they're already [TS]

01:01:46   writing the book in their head [TS]

01:01:48   yeah well in some cases I've seen [TS]

01:01:50   startups do like commissioned a video [TS]

01:01:52   documentary series about the creation of [TS]

01:01:54   their startup just to impress you with [TS]

01:01:56   how great they are [TS]

01:01:58   I worked at once that made us assemble [TS]

01:01:59   once every few months for recitation of [TS]

01:02:01   the creation myth [TS]

01:02:03   oh my gosh I just did a podcast episode [TS]

01:02:05   of the internet history podcast which by [TS]

01:02:07   the way if you're interested in these [TS]

01:02:09   sorts of things at Brian McCullough has [TS]

01:02:11   the series was interviewing people who [TS]

01:02:12   are in [TS]

01:02:13   halt at the creation of stuff excuse me [TS]

01:02:16   and he's gotten some people who rarely [TS]

01:02:17   talk publicly and I don't think the [TS]

01:02:19   podcast has gotten this massive amount [TS]

01:02:21   of attention like it's not like a [TS]

01:02:23   million people are downloading it but I [TS]

01:02:24   think his goal is to create a kind of [TS]

01:02:26   living history and there are people who [TS]

01:02:27   have never heard interviewed before very [TS]

01:02:30   rarely that talk to him for you know 60 [TS]

01:02:32   minutes or an hour and a half a couple [TS]

01:02:33   hours and we just talk about this other [TS]

01:02:35   day about creation myths that amazon [TS]

01:02:37   since i was there not at the creation [TS]

01:02:38   but knew the people from the start until [TS]

01:02:41   we know what I left in 97 and about all [TS]

01:02:43   this like the desk door and all those [TS]

01:02:44   things and we talked about all the stuff [TS]

01:02:46   that was sort of either made up [TS]

01:02:48   there's even things that Amazon denies [TS]

01:02:50   would have said no it did not happen [TS]

01:02:51   that way and yet reporters still tell [TS]

01:02:53   the story even though they come to other [TS]

01:02:55   people outside like me who had confirmed [TS]

01:02:57   that no it did not actually happen that [TS]

01:02:59   way [TS]

01:02:59   well so i hope everybody out there has [TS]

01:03:01   enjoyed our car RRR commingling of [TS]

01:03:04   things we talked about it on this [TS]

01:03:06   podcast and other other places where we [TS]

01:03:09   write in podcast technology and books [TS]

01:03:12   and stories and they all kind of go back [TS]

01:03:14   together so thank you Lisa speiser for [TS]

01:03:17   suggesting this is a topic I appreciate [TS]

01:03:20   it i'm glad we did it [TS]

01:03:20   well this is fun my pleasure I'll i [TS]

01:03:22   would like to thank our our our other [TS]

01:03:25   guests Glenn fleischmann thank you [TS]

01:03:27   delightful David Laura thank you very [TS]

01:03:29   much thank you I've been having a [TS]

01:03:32   wonderful chat over in the well we were [TS]

01:03:34   talking and and Monty Ashley you spend [TS]

01:03:38   your days of Microsoft but somehow don't [TS]

01:03:39   have a mac at home [TS]

01:03:41   so what's wrong with you there is a back [TS]

01:03:43   at my apartment it's just not mine [TS]

01:03:45   yeah okay okay well then we'll give [TS]

01:03:48   douglas coupland will give you a pass [TS]

01:03:49   for that and thanks everybody out there [TS]

01:03:51   for listening this has been comfortable [TS]

01:03:53   I've been your host Jason still we will [TS]

01:03:54   see you next week [TS]