57: Complex Feelings


00:00:00   *Bing*

00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode number 57.

00:00:12   Today's show is brought to you by Lynda.com,

00:00:14   where you can instantly stream thousands of courses created by industry experts.

00:00:18   Stamps.com, posted on demand, and go to meeting.

00:00:22   Make it easy to meet with your team wherever you need to, wherever you are.

00:00:27   My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by the wonderful Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:31   Can you believe we've done 57 of these?

00:00:33   It's amazing.

00:00:34   It's amazing.

00:00:35   It's flying by my friend.

00:00:36   It is flying by.

00:00:37   You do an episode a week and they just, the numbers just keep on going and it's

00:00:41   just a couple of extras as well.

00:00:43   Yeah, that's true.

00:00:44   That's true.

00:00:46   Well, happy, happy Monday to you.

00:00:47   We recorded this on Monday and happy whatever day it is to you podcast

00:00:51   listeners when you're listening to this.

00:00:53   I always had that problem because the podcasts happen in this eternal

00:00:57   present that is any day or any time and so you can't say tonight or today if you

00:01:02   are listening during the day kind of thing. It's hard because podcasts could

00:01:07   be any time. They're unmoored from time and space.

00:01:11   Exactly. That's right but I'm glad that you're listening to this podcast now. So

00:01:17   I want to do a little bit of follow-up from last week if you remember I tried

00:01:21   my best to activate Ahoy! telephone on people and it didn't affect everyone as

00:01:27   we heard from many people over Twitter in both camps so some people I did

00:01:33   activate their Ahoy! telephone and some I did not and we heard from both from both

00:01:39   sides so basically all you know is that the training isn't as perfect as you

00:01:45   would maybe hope it would be and that it doesn't matter kind of who the person is

00:01:49   it can still activate the new Ahoy! telephone feature.

00:01:53   If you do not know what I'm talking about when I say Ahoy! telephone, it is to activate

00:01:57   the personal assistant in your phone whilst the screen is off, which can now happen in

00:02:01   the new S-phones.

00:02:03   But we say Ahoy!

00:02:04   telephone so we don't activate people's telephones.

00:02:07   But I had an instance for me where I was watching a TV show and it activated a couple of days

00:02:12   ago.

00:02:13   Somebody said, "Are you serious?" and it lit up.

00:02:16   But the funny thing about it is it was an American lady coming through my MacBook speakers.

00:02:22   So I think the training clearly needs work.

00:02:25   So this made me think, can you turn this feature off?

00:02:28   And yes you can.

00:02:29   If you go to settings general in Siri, you can turn off the new feature that's in iOS

00:02:33   9 and the new S phones, which is what I have done.

00:02:37   Because I have my watch if I need to do the hands-free stuff and that makes way more sense

00:02:41   to me anyway.

00:02:43   makes sense to me too. And the training, I'm unclear on whether the training is just looking

00:02:49   at particular like tones of voice or frequency ranges or if it's doing something a little

00:02:54   more sophisticated. It does have you say a few different things but I'm still not convinced

00:02:57   that's doing anything other than trying to get you to speak with a natural tone. So it

00:03:03   sounds like it's better than it was perhaps but it's not locked on to your voice and no

00:03:09   whether voice will unlock that feature.

00:03:12   That doesn't seem to be the case.

00:03:14   I think that there is more that you can do, like for example if it maybe had you just

00:03:18   try and say more words than just that key phrase.

00:03:22   Because you'd think that gender and accent would be a real...

00:03:28   Like they're basically the two biggest defining characteristics of somebody's voice.

00:03:32   And the fact that it picked up the exact opposite to me was interesting.

00:03:38   Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

00:03:42   There may be something about the way that it's listening to that it because the other

00:03:46   thing that would solve this is if you could set something to say, set a key phrase or

00:03:51   choose from a collection of key phrases, which is I think what Amazon does.

00:03:54   My guess is though that there are costs for all of that because it's obviously listening

00:03:58   for a certain pattern of sound with its low power mode, but it's still listening just

00:04:05   for that certain pattern.

00:04:07   so it might be harder to do it. It's a tricky problem, but the difficulty is, yeah, if it's

00:04:14   listening all the time and you're in lots of places where people are talking, that you're

00:04:18   going to get accidental activations.

00:04:22   Also to follow up on my iCloud problems, during the last episode and now, Apple has released

00:04:27   another point update. I don't know what these ones are actually called. What are these called?

00:04:33   Because point updates is like 9.1.

00:04:35   I don't know. Minor updates.

00:04:37   update, we'll go there, 9.0.2, which had a bunch of fixes. It didn't mention anything

00:04:44   about iCloud, but it has fixed my iCloud backup problems. So my phone is now backing up overnight

00:04:52   automatically. Now the thing is, I have some friends, because I've been talking to people

00:04:57   a lot about this who are having the same problem as me, and this did not fix it for them. Which

00:05:02   I think further goes to my point from last week in that something is broken

00:05:06   and it's a random set of things that can fix it for different people. Like you

00:05:11   know I was saying like it just needs that kick to reboot it and that did that

00:05:14   9.0.2 did that for me but it still hasn't done it for everyone. I don't know

00:05:21   what Apple need to do here because it seems like there's a fix that they can't

00:05:25   put their finger on either. I'm hoping that 9.1 will be enough of a big change

00:05:31   for a lot of people that it does fix it but not being able to back up to iCloud

00:05:35   it's very frustrating. I agree it get you lose your safety net when when you you

00:05:42   aren't doing that when you can't rely on that. Yep and it's the reason I pay for

00:05:46   iCloud storage so right yeah yeah in a in a roundabout way I pay to back up my

00:05:53   phone. I guess this is why people don't upgrade right away is that you spend a

00:05:59   couple of weeks and Apple obviously spends a couple of weeks shaking all the little bugs

00:06:02   out. And they're inevitably, you know, so when, when I write reviews of stuff like this,

00:06:07   people are like, I can't believe you didn't mention this thing. And the answer is, well,

00:06:10   you know, what happens most of these things are things that don't happen every time they

00:06:14   happen to one person out of a thousand or one person out of 10,000. The problem is that,

00:06:20   you know, if you're, if you're only testing with a small group, relatively small group

00:06:23   of people, you may never find some of these quirks and then you roll it out to tens of

00:06:27   thousands and then you notice. Confidence has definitely been shook in the average

00:06:33   consumer about upgrading even though Apple's statistics are fantastic right? I

00:06:37   just know that from people that I've spoken to they get a bit nervous about

00:06:44   upgrading their devices now. Yeah I think IOS 7 really made a lot of iOS

00:06:49   users wary because that was a pretty traumatic update and changed the

00:06:54   you know, change the OS interface itself. And I think that has led to iOS users being

00:07:02   a little more reluctant to dive in.

00:07:04   - And was it eight that break people's phones? Or was it seven?

00:07:08   - I don't know.

00:07:09   - I remember it was one of them that had... There was like a bad... There was some bad

00:07:12   code in the update.

00:07:13   - Oh, yeah. Well, that was in eight. In eight, there was the one that it... There was an

00:07:17   eight update that killed the cellular modem.

00:07:19   - Yeah, there you go. That was it. That's what I wanted to go about.

00:07:22   - Good times.

00:07:23   So it's like, you know, you keep doing these things and people are like, "Oh!"

00:07:28   And I feel for Apple because, I mean, the 7, the iOS 7 one, where they maybe could have

00:07:34   predicted it, they didn't necessarily know that people wouldn't like it, right?

00:07:39   But it's the issue of if people aren't tuned into your marketing message, they wake up

00:07:43   the next day and they basically have a different phone, right?

00:07:47   Because it looks nothing like the one from the day before.

00:07:50   the motivation of the vendors is interesting because in a lot of these cases, they don't

00:07:55   want you to not upgrade. They want you to upgrade and they don't care. They know that

00:08:00   some people are going to be fearing change and be reluctant to change, but they're highly

00:08:05   motivated to get everybody on the latest and greatest. And so they're not trying to make

00:08:13   life easy for people who are holding back from updating. They're not interested in that.

00:08:20   And the challenge is when you do something really traumatic, like with the iOS 7 interface

00:08:25   changes, that's pretty, yeah, that was pretty shocking.

00:08:29   And I think there was a lot of trust lost there because their phone changed overnight.

00:08:32   And I know I heard it from some of my relatives, like, you know, "There's a new update.

00:08:36   Is this going to change my phone again completely?"

00:08:38   Nope.

00:08:39   Just that one time.

00:08:40   But still, they remember.

00:08:42   >>It is one of those things, though, that I don't know how you solve that problem.

00:08:46   Like if it's what you want to do, like, I don't know if there's any other way to do

00:08:50   it but, you know, there are people smarter than me to look at these issues.

00:08:54   Let's do a bit of follow-up.

00:08:57   We haven't spoken about this yet and I know that a few people wanted us to.

00:08:59   It's all part of the conspiracy.

00:09:00   Yeah, it's all part of the conspiracy, the ever-running large conspiracy regarding peace

00:09:06   and ad blockers and Marco.

00:09:10   And there's been some really interesting discussion on ATP136 and on the talk show 132 about this

00:09:16   this. Obviously Marco was on both of those. And I know that, Jason, you wanted

00:09:23   to kind of talk about the fact that we're friends, right? Yeah, this is, I mean

00:09:32   I don't really want to spend a lot of time talking about ad blockers and

00:09:35   about the, I think it's a complicated issue. I think I may have said

00:09:41   this previously, you will end up just all feeling bad and not solving anything.

00:09:48   I'm gearing up for something, like I'm still chewing through my feelings and I think that

00:09:54   me and Grey are going to talk about this at some point, just because I think he's going

00:09:58   to have a different kind of view on this kind of stuff because he comes from somewhere else.

00:10:03   I would be interested to hear what he has to say. I think after we did the show last

00:10:06   week we talked about this a little so the people who were in the live chat listening

00:10:10   live stream heard it, but I did talk about ad blocking and more generally about how problematic

00:10:17   web ads are on the talk show in July, so that's episode 126 of the talk show. Gruber and I

00:10:24   talked about that for quite a bit and I think, you know, I recounted some of the things that

00:10:30   I witnessed working for a publishing company that was struggling with how you make money

00:10:35   on the web. And my feelings about ad blocking in general are--they're difficult, they're

00:10:42   problematic because I think that on one level it is wrong to take the content that's being

00:10:50   offered but not the things that ride along with them. On one level I think that's wrong.

00:10:57   On another level though I feel like the abuse of that connection and that trust has gone

00:11:05   totally out of control and and sort of taken the publishers don't have any ground to stand

00:11:10   on anymore about this because of how badly they've abused that if you could imagine getting a getting

00:11:15   a newspaper your daily newspaper suddenly I mean think back 10 years your daily newspaper

00:11:22   suddenly comes with a fake a fake front page that's all fake stories about an advertiser and

00:11:30   And when you open it up, there's like a thing that pops up and plays a sound until you close

00:11:37   that page.

00:11:38   And then somewhere else in there, they've inserted eight different cologne samples and

00:11:43   those are stinking up the newspaper.

00:11:46   And some of those were attempted in print.

00:11:49   And generally, it was very expensive and it turned out that the readers hated it.

00:11:54   I've got to say I saw Andy Baio tweet today about the front page of the LA Times and it

00:12:02   looks like a web page.

00:12:03   I put a link in the show notes and in the chat room.

00:12:06   It's kind of fun to see.

00:12:08   So the trend toward junk, I mean, it happens.

00:12:12   So I feel like it's a complicated issue and like I said I think in the end everybody just

00:12:16   feels bad because you want to find a way to support this.

00:12:20   This is one of the things that was, I think, almost inevitable when the entire model for

00:12:25   the web settled down to everything is free, or almost everything is free on the web and

00:12:30   it's all about traffic and ads to make money and not about people paying for stories. It

00:12:38   used to be you didn't get news unless you paid for it, and now we all get it for free

00:12:44   from a lot of different sources. So there's that issue. But that's actually not what I

00:12:47   wanted to talk about. What I wanted to talk about, at least briefly, is that I had that

00:12:50   moment listening to Marco talk about making the decision to pull Peace because he wasn't

00:12:55   comfortable and he decided he didn't want to be in the ad blocking industry. I don't

00:13:03   know, Myke, you and I were privy to--we saw a beta of Peace and we saw conversations about

00:13:12   piece a little bit in our Relay FM Slack channel. And I just had a couple of moments where I

00:13:20   felt like I asked myself, "Did I fail Marco by not trying to steer him away from this

00:13:27   idea that he decided was a bad idea?" Because I felt like we were all sort of supportive

00:13:32   of Marco. It's like, "Hey Marco, I can't believe you're doing this thing, but good for you."

00:13:38   And we tried to be sort of friendly and supportive.

00:13:41   And I just had that moment of thinking, you know, should we have been more skeptical?

00:13:46   Should we have been, you know, warned him, like, "Do you really want to get into this

00:13:51   or not?"

00:13:52   I don't know.

00:13:53   I just feel a little bit of guilt that I could have seen this coming and failed to say anything.

00:13:58   I didn't see it coming.

00:13:59   It's not like I saw it coming and decided I was going to let him, you know, go through

00:14:05   this.

00:14:06   had that moment of pause of like, you know, did I, could I have thought about this a little

00:14:13   bit more and sort of jumped out and said, "No, wait my arms. No, Margot, stop. No, think

00:14:18   about this some more." And I didn't do that.

00:14:20   See, I feel bad about it too now. And it kind of frustrates me looking back at it because

00:14:32   I have, I mean we've spoken about it on this show in the past, like I have very complex feelings

00:14:39   towards ad blocking and I don't really know where I fall on it. So I should have been able to

00:14:47   transplant that feeling onto the idea to say "Marco this could be trouble" but for some reason

00:14:56   it never crossed my mind. I was using it, trying it out, I was like "this is really cool" was my

00:15:02   thinking. Right? And just like, "Wow, look how fast the pages load!" I was purely

00:15:07   focused on the technical, and this is exactly what Marco was saying, and I

00:15:11   think it might be difficult for people to hear that and believe it. Right, like

00:15:15   he was talking about this on ATP, but I was like nodding along because I was

00:15:20   like, "Yeah, I saw it too, and it never... I didn't connect the dots between the two

00:15:26   things." Because it just felt like, "Hey, this is a technical achievement. He has

00:15:30   created a thing that really works well and I really think it's because I don't

00:15:39   have skin in this exact game I think that was why I didn't think about it

00:15:45   because there's nothing to block on Relay there's nothing there I mean some

00:15:51   some desktop ad blockers do actually block our this episode was sponsored by

00:15:56   Box because every now and then I get an email from someone saying you should put

00:16:00   sponsors on the page I'm like hey you should turn off your ad blocker and I

00:16:05   checked that it was one of the first things I checked when I install pieces

00:16:08   to our sponsor blocks load on the on the show pages and they did and I was

00:16:11   like great that works and so I didn't ever really think about the you are

00:16:16   entering into a war of ideals here and it's interesting to look at it now and

00:16:22   be like well yeah of course he was and it's funny how we all kind of came to

00:16:27   that thinking afterwards rather than before?

00:16:33   >>TIM CHANIN-POMERANZ It's a story that's been told many times,

00:16:35   which is the, you know, I think most probably most notably in the Manhattan Project, but

00:16:43   it's the story of scientists and there and and but it goes for all technology, which

00:16:51   is there's the enthusiasm about learning something new and creating something new. And then there

00:16:55   there is the thought about the application of it. And those are always in conflict, or

00:17:01   often in conflict anyway, where you've got the, as the line from one of my favorite TV

00:17:05   shows said, I mean, I only build the bomb, I don't drop it, right? Like, it doesn't,

00:17:10   I'm completely disconnected from the effects of the thing that I've built. I'm just focused

00:17:15   on the building. And I think history is full of examples of people enthusiastic about building

00:17:20   new things without necessarily thinking through all the horrible uses that would come to them.

00:17:25   And so, you know, I think that we were guilty in some ways of not shifting our frame of

00:17:32   reference from this person we know who we're in this sort of private conversation with

00:17:38   having worked on something new and trying it out and saying, "Yeah, it really does

00:17:43   work, and I noticed this about it," and not taking that step back and saying, "What's

00:17:49   going to happen when this all goes down, and where does it lead?" and thinking about

00:17:53   that, and I'm not saying that making an ad blocker is immoral, but I'm saying that it

00:17:58   is controversial enough that when you pull back from the idea of "this is a cool thing

00:18:04   that you built," you then start to have that realization of what's going to happen. I think

00:18:10   we could have seen it coming, and that's all I wanted to bring up. There's no answer here

00:18:15   other than I feel bad that Marco had to go through it. I totally understand how it happened,

00:18:21   which is that he realized that, first off, he's a smart businessman. I have to say that.

00:18:26   He saw an opportunity here. As a programmer, he thought, "Oh, content blockers on OS 9

00:18:32   are going to be a big thing. Let's do something there." And he did something there, and he

00:18:36   built it. And he did that because of his interest in learning about this technology, in supporting

00:18:42   new Apple technologies, and because he assumed, I think, more than—and he talked about this

00:18:47   on ATP and I think the talk show, he assumed there'd be 20 of them, right? And there weren't.

00:18:57   Surprisingly only a handful of them at launch. And that was the stuff that was driving him,

00:19:03   was I could build this, I could make a deal with Ghostery, I could learn what the different

00:19:07   formats are and I could implement this new thing from Apple. And that was what was driving

00:19:13   it. And it was only afterward that he realized, "Oh, I'm going to get all the people in the

00:19:19   media business angry at me, and I'm looking now at a future where I'm going to have to

00:19:24   maintain this thing, and now I'm part of the ad block industry, which is kind of a gross

00:19:28   industry." And he didn't want to be a part of it. So ultimately, I feel bad that he went

00:19:34   through it and that he didn't stop earlier and say, "Oh, this is not a good idea. I shouldn't

00:19:38   release this. And like I said, I feel at least a little residual guilt that I didn't at least

00:19:48   have enough perspective to say, "Are you sure you want to do this?" And I'm not saying that,

00:19:53   you know, like I said, I didn't know this was going to happen and say, "Well, we'll

00:19:56   see. Let's watch what Marco does now." It was like, I didn't think of it and I wish

00:20:00   I had. Yeah. Definitely. All right, let's take a break and get into, we have a real

00:20:06   selection of topics today. Lots of little things going on.

00:20:09   Oh yeah, big menu.

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00:22:46   So OS X El Capitan came out in between the two shows that we've recorded.

00:22:53   I'm running El Capitan on my Mac Pro right now.

00:22:57   It has not fixed the issues I was having with my Mac Pro, which is for anybody that hasn't

00:23:03   followed the chain.

00:23:04   I have an issue with my Mac Pro wherein it sometimes just freezes.

00:23:11   All of the UI locks up.

00:23:13   I can still have podcast conversations, Skype still works, and in some apps audio recording

00:23:20   still works.

00:23:21   It's a whole big thing, which is so much to say this is why I will be buying a new iMac

00:23:27   as soon as they are revved, which I'm hoping should be soon-ish.

00:23:30   I hope so.

00:23:31   I priced one out today.

00:23:32   Oh, well that's never a good sign.

00:23:35   I'm going to be buying a monster, Jason.

00:23:38   I'm looking at currently, as it stands, 4 gigahertz quad-core i7, 16 gigabytes of RAM,

00:23:47   1 terabyte of flash storage.

00:23:50   Are you anticipating getting an updated 5K?

00:23:54   Yeah, I'm getting the 5K, yep.

00:23:56   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:23:58   Boy, that's gonna be a sad--

00:23:59   That day is coming soon, I'm sure,

00:24:01   where my precious 5K iMac here will be last year's model.

00:24:05   I mean, technically it is last year's model,

00:24:07   but it hasn't been eclipsed yet.

00:24:08   But it's--well, yeah, I mean,

00:24:10   they've re-bundled some stuff and all that,

00:24:12   but my precious, my precious model.

00:24:13   Yeah, I'm gonna be going the whole way,

00:24:15   'cause I'll be able to sell my Mac Pro

00:24:17   for about two-thirds of the cost.

00:24:18   Dare I say #JasonWasRight?

00:24:21   [laughs]

00:24:22   Well, no, you see--

00:24:23   Come on, give this to me.

00:24:24   Give this to me!

00:24:25   No, because people say this, right, because they said, "Oh, you should get an iMac, you

00:24:28   should get an iMac at the time."

00:24:29   But at that time, I only had the space for one monitor in the office where I work, and

00:24:36   I needed to have something that could also have games consoles plugged into.

00:24:42   So that was why I had to go with a machine.

00:24:44   That was one of the primary reasons.

00:24:45   But now I have a whole different setup.

00:24:47   I have a lovely TV here that my PS4 and Xbox and Wii are plugged into.

00:24:51   And so now I'm going to go for the iMac because I want that big Retina display as well as

00:24:55   all the power now.

00:24:57   All right.

00:24:59   I'll allow it.

00:25:00   Yeah, I'm sorry.

00:25:03   You'll get a Jason was right in soon enough.

00:25:05   Maybe before the end of this episode.

00:25:06   You're just copying me.

00:25:07   Yeah, that's it.

00:25:08   I just want that Jason Snell experience.

00:25:11   Yeah, the full Snell Zone experience.

00:25:14   Thank you.

00:25:16   So El Capitan, what you're saying is your solution updating to El Capitan isn't going

00:25:23   to do it, so instead you're just going to buy a whole new computer.

00:25:26   Yes.

00:25:27   I'm sorry, I had hoped that maybe just whatever that problem is that it would be solved in

00:25:32   El Capitan, but...

00:25:33   This isn't a thing to be sorry about.

00:25:35   I'm going to be getting a nicer computer.

00:25:37   Sure.

00:25:38   You know, there was a part of me that was hoping that this wouldn't fix the problem.

00:25:43   Well then congratulations, I'm glad your bug did not get fixed in El Capitan.

00:25:48   Whatever it is, whatever strange OS bug it is that it does that, that's just such a weird

00:25:54   thing.

00:25:55   Yeah, so El Capitan came out.

00:25:58   That's what we're saying.

00:25:59   El Capitan is out.

00:26:01   I'm hoping you will have more to say about El Capitan than I do.

00:26:05   Like I don't have a ton to say.

00:26:06   I like the split screen and I like the overall enhancement submission control because I really

00:26:12   do work in my Mac in Mission Control?"

00:26:14   Well, I mean, I think that's one of the unheralded improvements is that I really like what they

00:26:20   did to Mission Control.

00:26:21   The fact that all of your windows now appear when you activate Mission Control instead

00:26:30   of stacking all the windows from an app together, which was kind of annoying if you work heavily

00:26:36   in some specific apps.

00:26:39   And I really like that they've got the geography thing going on where it's much easier to find

00:26:45   windows in Mission Control because they don't go too far away.

00:26:48   They sort of stay roughly where they were.

00:26:52   So you know like it was over on the left somewhere and you look and you can find it.

00:26:56   I think they did a good job with all of that and you can drag more things up into the Mission

00:27:01   Control bar now.

00:27:02   I like that you can send them out full screen by just dragging it up there.

00:27:06   Yeah, you just grab the window and toss it up there and it's full screen.

00:27:09   And the split screen stuff is really good. So talking about that presentation

00:27:12   that I'm working on, see I'm working on 25 inch monitor here. So I have keynote

00:27:17   open, effectively it's full in size and I also have the Notes app

00:27:22   pinned to the side because I've written my outline for my presentation

00:27:26   in the Notes app and then I'm transferring some into my speaker notes

00:27:30   and using it to help me go through the presentation and add slides in and stuff

00:27:35   like that so the split screen is fantastic for that I wish there was a

00:27:40   more elegant way to bring apps out of full screen currently going up to the

00:27:45   menu bar and hitting the green well what used to be the green button or whatever

00:27:49   it is now it's a really inelegant solution so do you know the other the

00:27:54   other way to do it is in mission control you can actually if you go to the the

00:27:59   the space that is your split screen uh-huh instead of having the X to get rid

00:28:04   of the space, it has this little icon that's like,

00:28:07   it basically means blow apart.

00:28:09   And if you click it, the two, both of the windows

00:28:12   go back into regular mode.

00:28:14   - Yeah, see that's-- - So that is a way

00:28:16   to do it faster, but-- - That doesn't feel right

00:28:17   to me. - But you should have

00:28:19   a keyboard shortcut on that green button, I think.

00:28:23   Or the green button should just pull both of the apps out.

00:28:25   I think this is one of those cases where

00:28:27   the fact is Split View is just full screen mode

00:28:30   with two apps in it.

00:28:31   and they both think they're in full screen mode

00:28:34   on a monitor that's narrower.

00:28:36   - My ideal way of doing this is if you have two apps

00:28:40   in split screen and you go into mission control,

00:28:42   it shows you those two sort of broken out

00:28:46   and then you can move them individually.

00:28:48   - That'd be nice.

00:28:49   - Right?

00:28:50   - Yeah, it's just, it's not,

00:28:52   this is one of those features

00:28:53   that will get refined over time, I think.

00:28:55   - Exactly.

00:28:55   - But in this first version, it's a little bit of a hack.

00:28:57   It is two apps in full screen mode,

00:29:00   but running side by side.

00:29:01   They don't really know about each other.

00:29:03   I have some issues with the fact that apps don't,

00:29:06   so many apps are not written to assume

00:29:08   that if they're in full screen mode,

00:29:09   they might be sharing space with another app.

00:29:11   And so they don't often indicate whether they're active

00:29:14   or not, and that's problematic because, you know,

00:29:17   you can only type in the one that's active.

00:29:18   And in some cases, things like scrolling or pinching

00:29:20   and zooming are limited based on whether the app

00:29:23   is front most or not.

00:29:24   In full screen mode, there's no concept

00:29:26   of front most kind of.

00:29:28   it's, they're gonna work this stuff out.

00:29:30   But I agree with you, it is, you should be able,

00:29:34   right now if you click that green button,

00:29:36   one app goes back into the desktop

00:29:40   and the other one stays full screen,

00:29:43   which I'm not sure should be the default behavior,

00:29:47   but at the very least it would, you know,

00:29:49   it would be nice if there was a very quick way

00:29:52   to do that, to uncouple them both

00:29:56   and send them back to their respective spaces rather than having to click one and then go

00:30:00   swipe back to the other one and click it too.

00:30:03   And right now the fastest—there is a shortcut to do that, but it's to go to Mission Control

00:30:07   and blow up the little space that they share with the little icon in the corner of the

00:30:16   icon at the top of the screen in the Mission Control bar.

00:30:19   Not ideal.

00:30:20   you've spent more time thinking and reviewing, naturally, OS X than I have.

00:30:28   Are there any other features of El Capitan that excite you or that interest you?

00:30:35   I mean, for example, if there's anything good in Safari, I don't know what it is, because

00:30:39   I'm using Chrome, like a gentleman.

00:30:41   Well, Pinsights.

00:30:42   like pen sites okay which is like mega favorites instead the because I use the

00:30:56   bookmarks bar or the favorites bar or whatever they call it now and and it's

00:31:01   the favorites bar and I've got a bunch of stuff up in there but the the pen

00:31:06   sites is these little these little tiny tabs they live within the tab bar and

00:31:12   and they have an icon if the site has given an icon.

00:31:17   Although I found in Safari that the icons sort of come and go

00:31:21   don't really know why.

00:31:22   Sometimes they're there, sometimes they aren't there,

00:31:25   but you can pin those sites and they stay there

00:31:28   and they're in every window.

00:31:29   And so if you've got sites that you visit a lot,

00:31:31   you can just pin them and then they're always available.

00:31:33   They're a keystroke away.

00:31:35   It tries to keep them up to date.

00:31:37   So they're preloaded.

00:31:38   If you click on a link that's in the pin site,

00:31:41   it stays in the pin site, but if you click on an offside link rather than closing your

00:31:45   pin site and opening that link in the same window, it just flips you to a new tab, and

00:31:53   the place you left on your favorite site is still there.

00:31:56   So there's some nice things about that that I think it's kind of cool.

00:32:01   And I think Safari, oh, that changes the keyboard shortcut behavior, which is kind of annoying

00:32:07   if you're somebody who did get used to the keyboard shortcuts of the bookmark bar.

00:32:11   And then there's the audio muting feature, which is nice, which is your auto-play video

00:32:15   feature.

00:32:16   If you've got a tab that suddenly starts making noise, and people who have lots of tabs open,

00:32:21   this happens a lot, you can mute your browser tab if it's playing in that window.

00:32:27   You can also mute all the others and just say, "Wherever that thing is playing, I don't

00:32:32   want to hear it."

00:32:33   And that's a nice feature.

00:32:36   So there's some stuff in there.

00:32:38   Notes got big improvements that sync up with the iOS 9 improvements.

00:32:41   I should have mentioned notes because it's one of my favorite apps now.

00:32:45   Just flat out.

00:32:47   All those features that use the iCloud, first off it's the iCloud syncing so you don't have

00:32:51   to just use IMAP email boxes for your notes.

00:32:54   They actually sync with iCloud now and iCloud.

00:32:59   iCloud notes get all these other features where there's like more like check boxes and

00:33:03   you can do sketches with on iOS and you can view those on the Mac, although you can't

00:33:07   create them.

00:33:10   You know, it's a, I think like in my review on Macworld, I liken this to putting a better

00:33:17   selfie camera on an iPhone and putting a camera on the iPad is one of those things that maybe

00:33:22   Apple when they were building these products didn't expect it to be as popular a behavior

00:33:27   as it turned out to be.

00:33:28   And once you realize that it's popular, you say, well, we should probably make it better

00:33:32   then if it's going to be popular people

00:33:34   going to use it we should make it better

00:33:35   and I feel like that's what happened

00:33:36   with notes is they realize that

00:33:38   everybody uses notes for something

00:33:39   because it's pre-installed it's super

00:33:41   easy to get to it may not be the

00:33:43   greatest thing in the world yes there

00:33:44   are competitors that do a better job but

00:33:45   it's still crazy popular so let's make

00:33:48   it better and so they did and so it's

00:33:50   better across iOS and and OS 10 and I

00:33:54   think they did a good job and I'm glad

00:33:55   they finally put in the effort to not

00:33:57   make it like use your email boxes in

00:33:59   order to do notes because that was dumb

00:34:01   It was a hack that lasted for like eight years.

00:34:04   I don't know how that managed, but it's done now and it's very easy to migrate to.

00:34:10   You can actually just select your notes and drag them into iCloud and they move over to

00:34:14   iCloud and it's fine.

00:34:16   You can set up folders for your notes and, you know, they did a very good job, I think,

00:34:20   with updating notes.

00:34:23   And photos, since I'm the author of Photos for Mac, a take control crash course, a book

00:34:29   book available, an e-book available for download now. I pay very close attention to the Photos

00:34:35   app because I wrote a whole book about it and now that there's an update to Photos version

00:34:41   1.1 that comes with El Capitan, I wanted to go through that and find all the new features

00:34:48   there because I'm going to have to update my book. It will be a free update but I'm

00:34:52   gonna update my book for for 1.1 and and there are a few they knocked off the

00:34:58   the biggest feature requests keeping in mind photos for Mac only came out in the

00:35:02   spring they haven't had a whole year to update it so it's a it's not a 2.0 it's a

00:35:07   1.1 but like the top complaint of users of photos was that you couldn't geotag

00:35:13   photos in the app you couldn't edit geo data and you couldn't add geo data to

00:35:17   photos that didn't have it embedded in it, like taken from an SLR or something, some

00:35:23   other device that doesn't have location information.

00:35:26   And you can now.

00:35:27   It uses the same maps database that everything else does by default, the Apple Maps database.

00:35:34   But I selected a whole bunch of pictures that I took 10 years ago that aren't geotagged,

00:35:40   and I was able to select them all and choose Command-I to bring up the info pane and enter

00:35:45   in the name of the location where we were and hit return and boom they were

00:35:47   all geotagged and it automatically syncs over iCloud so if I search later for

00:35:52   pictures from Seattle those pictures that I tagged are now going to show up

00:35:56   so that was a it should have you know it should have been there but it wasn't

00:36:00   batch batch geotagging individual geotagging batch changing of titles and

00:36:04   descriptions and keywords that's all in there now so you know and the other

00:36:08   thing is extensions I actually wrote about this on on six colors you can now

00:36:11   app developers can write extensions that work in photos, editing extensions,

00:36:17   similar to the concept of photo editing extensions on iOS, which there haven't

00:36:22   been a lot of, but I've counted like four or five that are in the Mac App Store

00:36:27   right now that will let you...

00:36:28   Still waiting on that VSCO one that they demoed on stage.

00:36:34   Yeah.

00:36:35   With iOS 8 or whatever it was.

00:36:38   - Yeah, yeah, that didn't get a lot of pickup, did it?

00:36:41   But I tried a few from Mac Fun, from B-Funky,

00:36:46   and Pixelmator's got one that's coming out

00:36:48   with an update to Pixelmator.

00:36:50   And, you know, we'll see how the developer

00:36:54   adoption goes of this.

00:36:56   And the idea is that third parties can add things.

00:36:59   Like, there are some filters that are black and white

00:37:01   filters inside photos, but Tonality from Mac Fun,

00:37:05   which is like an $18 app.

00:37:07   And it's funny because as an app, it is just like a blank.

00:37:10   You know, you open a picture and it brings up an interface

00:37:13   and you make changes and it creates a, you know,

00:37:16   a really nice, usually like black and white image

00:37:19   and you press okay and it saves it out.

00:37:21   It's not much of an app.

00:37:22   And it actually makes sense as an extension inside

00:37:26   of photos because then you're editing a photo

00:37:29   and then you get to the point where you wanna run it

00:37:31   through this third party extension and you can do that.

00:37:36   and then you save it and you never left photos.

00:37:39   You just use the functionality of that inside of photos.

00:37:42   So that got added.

00:37:44   We'll see if it's a curiosity

00:37:45   or if it becomes more valuable.

00:37:47   I think that one of the nice things about it is

00:37:50   it lets people who have pet features

00:37:52   that there's some subculture of people,

00:37:54   some subsection that really, really wants this feature,

00:37:57   but it's never gonna be enough for Apple to add it.

00:37:59   Now somebody can develop an extension that does it

00:38:02   and it'll work inside the photos

00:38:04   and Apple doesn't have to go down that path.

00:38:07   So that's beyond that.

00:38:11   I mean, El Capitan is where it's compatible with everything.

00:38:15   I believe they haven't reduced compatibility

00:38:19   for an OS release since Mountain Lion.

00:38:24   I think all the same systems run Mountain Lion,

00:38:28   Maverick, Yosemite and El Capitan.

00:38:31   They haven't, not all the features work,

00:38:34   But Apple very much wants everybody.

00:38:36   And in fact, you can upgrade from as long,

00:38:38   if you've got a compatible system

00:38:39   from as far back as Snow Leopard,

00:38:41   you can upgrade directly to El Capitan.

00:38:44   - That's good.

00:38:47   - Yeah, well, Apple wants everybody on the current version.

00:38:49   And that's where all the biggest security updates are.

00:38:53   And that's part of the reasoning for doing it this way,

00:38:57   is they want everybody on this version.

00:38:59   They want, that way,

00:39:03   they're not spending all their time maintaining Windows XP, right?

00:39:06   They're like, "Look, if you've got any computer that we've sold,

00:39:09   almost any computer we've sold in the last six years,

00:39:12   you can just run El Capitan and you'll get all the updates."

00:39:15   So, I think that's interesting.

00:39:18   It's free, it's a download,

00:39:20   and it works with pretty much any computer

00:39:24   from the last five years.

00:39:25   - Anything else, El Capitan?

00:39:28   - I don't know, I feel like I've got it all there.

00:39:32   That's, it's free.

00:39:34   It's been solid for me.

00:39:36   I think people should, yeah,

00:39:42   I think you should give it a try.

00:39:43   Again, we just talked about,

00:39:45   if you wanna wait a couple of weeks

00:39:47   to see if issues get shaken out, then do so.

00:39:51   And then I guess the other thing I would say is,

00:39:53   if there are apps that you rely on day to day

00:39:55   to do your job, go check and see if they are okay

00:39:59   in El Capitan, 'cause if they're not, don't upgrade.

00:40:01   That's like rule one, is if there's stuff that you rely on

00:40:05   that doesn't work with it, 'cause I heard from somebody

00:40:07   who said, "Oh, I upgraded to El Capitan,

00:40:08   it turns out that these two programs that I use

00:40:10   that I totally rely on that are like five years old

00:40:13   don't work in El Capitan without installing

00:40:14   all of these extra things."

00:40:16   And it was a disaster, so I went back to Yosemite.

00:40:18   I'm like, "Well, yeah, I think if you were relying

00:40:23   on especially old software, check out to Google around

00:40:26   a little bit, see if there are issues,

00:40:28   because that can be a problem.

00:40:32   I didn't have any issues like that

00:40:34   because I'm using mostly recent software.

00:40:37   Like an app that many podcasts use,

00:40:40   the Levelator apparently broke in El Capitan,

00:40:42   although Tidbits posted an article about

00:40:44   there is a way to fix it.

00:40:47   It's an unsupported app from a company that no longer exists

00:40:52   but people are trying to keep it alive.

00:40:55   But with the exceptions of

00:40:57   if you've got a mission critical app

00:40:58   that just won't work in it, I'd say,

00:41:00   otherwise it's a pretty smooth update.

00:41:02   I thought it's almost routine.

00:41:05   And that's a good thing that Apple is trying to make this

00:41:09   as smooth and routine as possible

00:41:11   and not have these upgrades seem upsetting to people.

00:41:16   And I think they did a pretty good job with El Capitan.

00:41:20   It's a, you know, I can't measure the speed improvements.

00:41:24   They say it's a lot faster.

00:41:25   It's probably more measurable on slower systems

00:41:28   than the 5K iMac that I was using for most of my testing because it's pretty fast as

00:41:32   it is.

00:41:34   But by using Metal underneath instead of OpenGL, the game performance should be a lot better

00:41:38   and a whole bunch of other graphics stuff should be a lot smoother because core animation

00:41:42   and core graphics are now using Metal instead of OpenGL.

00:41:45   >> Cool.

00:41:46   >> But it didn't fix your computer.

00:41:50   Sorry.

00:41:51   >> No, it didn't.

00:41:52   It did not fix my computer at all.

00:41:54   Actually, let me take a second sponsor break right now and then I want to talk about Amazon

00:42:01   a little bit.

00:42:02   Okay.

00:42:03   Yeah, because there's some interesting stuff going on there this week.

00:42:05   Yeah.

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00:43:48   So, over the past few days, Amazon have issued a release and have then subsequently stopped

00:43:59   selling devices like the Apple TV and the Chromecast.

00:44:03   And the quote from Amazon is, "Over the last three years, Prime Video has become an important

00:44:08   part of Prime," is what they said in an email that they sent out.

00:44:12   "It's important that the streaming media players we sell interact well with Prime Video in

00:44:16   in order to avoid customer confusion.

00:44:20   So basically what it seems like and what the assumption is

00:44:24   that Amazon and Apple and Amazon and Google

00:44:29   have not yet come to an agreement

00:44:33   over how to work together to get Prime onto their platforms.

00:44:37   So whether it's the Apple or Google

00:44:40   are asking Amazon to design in a certain way

00:44:43   that they're uncomfortable with,

00:44:44   or Amazon is saying,

00:44:46   we're not gonna go through your in-app purchase system

00:44:48   and we want people to sign up for their accounts,

00:44:49   whatever the reasons are,

00:44:52   they've basically come to a stalemate

00:44:54   in which Amazon has now taken some pretty harsh action.

00:44:58   - Yeah, it's weird, it's weird.

00:45:03   I see both sides of this and I know that

00:45:06   it's been very popular for people to just point at Amazon

00:45:09   and say, "Amazon, you're evil, boo."

00:45:13   If you're Amazon and you've spent, this is the conflict.

00:45:17   Amazon has spent a lot of time and money promoting their video services,

00:45:23   their streaming video services.

00:45:24   And so now they're a video platform owner.

00:45:30   They're also a seller of products.

00:45:33   And some of those products don't work with their video platform.

00:45:36   And I totally understand somebody at Amazon saying, this is confusing.

00:45:43   We're getting complaints.

00:45:44   I have to explain to people that, uh, no, just because you bought that video

00:45:50   streamer on Amazon and you're an Amazon customer, it doesn't mean that you can

00:45:55   get your video from Amazon on that product that you bought from Amazon because it's

00:46:00   from Apple and they don't like us.

00:46:02   And so they like us to sell their stuff, but they don't like us to put our stuff

00:46:06   on their, on their boxes.

00:46:07   Um, I, I get that.

00:46:10   I actually do get that.

00:46:11   I think that as computer nerds, it's easy for us to say,

00:46:15   oh, well, come on, everybody knows that you can't do that

00:46:17   on the Apple TV and all that, but I don't know.

00:46:20   If you're an Amazon customer and you're using Prime Video

00:46:22   and you say, oh, you know, I heard you can put that

00:46:24   on a TV, well, I've got Apple stuff,

00:46:26   I'm gonna get the Apple TV and use that.

00:46:29   Although you can, you can use AirPlay to play Amazon video

00:46:33   on the Apple TV, but you just can't use the app.

00:46:36   So I guess what I'm saying is I understand that.

00:46:41   this is the difficulty of having this platform

00:46:43   and also being a seller of hardware,

00:46:45   is that you are going to have issues like this,

00:46:48   where the stuff that you're doing over here

00:46:52   is not compatible with the stuff

00:46:53   that you're selling over there.

00:46:54   It's hard not to see this as a power play though,

00:46:59   as like the equivalent of Apple taking a publisher's books

00:47:02   out of the Apple store as an expression

00:47:06   of discontent in some way.

00:47:08   It also seems kind of bizarre to me in the sense

00:47:10   I think we all assumed that Amazon would do an app for the new Apple TV.

00:47:16   And if that is the case, wouldn't they not make such a big deal about sweeping the old Apple TV out of the store?

00:47:25   I don't know. It seems weird. Seems weird.

00:47:29   I think that Amazon probably want an app, but what they also want to do is sell subscriptions.

00:47:37   And that's why this is happening. So that's why I believe this is happening right now,

00:47:41   is because I assume that Apple and Amazon are meeting about the Apple TV.

00:47:47   So Bezos is like, "We're not getting what we want. Screw this. We'll show them." And this is

00:47:53   in the middle of the discussions. He said, "Well, we'll take it out of the store." And Apple go,

00:47:57   "Fine, try us." And they go, "Okay." And they pull it out. That's what I assume is happening right

00:48:02   now. And then somebody pulled down their pants at some point and just exposed their butt. But we

00:48:06   But we don't know who that was. That could have been either side, really. It was a very

00:48:10   juvenile meeting. It was very -- they should have ended it long before they had it.

00:48:14   You say that, though. I expect that this is a lot of why this is happening. And the reason

00:48:18   it's happening right now is because of the upcoming Apple TV. That is my feeling about

00:48:23   this. So the thing is that the way that I see this is I don't fully know if I can reconcile

00:48:31   in my mind why it's okay for Apple to take a cut of signups for Amazon Prime

00:48:37   video. I can't work out in my head, like so people like oh you know there's

00:48:43   people call foul on Amazon, but why should Apple be taking a cut of signups

00:48:50   anyway? Well the standard approach has been if you offer, if you

00:48:56   don't offer it in the app it's okay. That's why you can play Amazon instant

00:48:59   video stuff on an iPad. Sure, but why shouldn't people be able to sign up in the app? Well,

00:49:05   I think that's a separate issue. I think it's a separate issue. I think it is the issue.

00:49:10   Well, I'm... Because this is probably, I mean, this is one of the major problems that Amazon

00:49:15   and Apple have together, right? Sure, this is behind ripping all the commerce out of

00:49:20   ComiXology too, it's the same story. And why the Kindle app, you can't buy books in the

00:49:24   Kindle app and yeah it's true. And I wonder like why Apple think that this is

00:49:30   something that it's okay for them to demand because you can buy physical

00:49:35   goods right so it's not like there's a problem with we can't allow over payment

00:49:40   processing because other payment processing happens in Apple App Store

00:49:43   apps it's just this idea of a subscription service which they won't

00:49:49   play ball on. Yeah. When like you could just sign into your Amazon account and

00:49:52   and purchase it in the app like how you do a toaster.

00:49:57   So my feeling on this is if Amazon don't want to use the in-app purchase

00:50:02   system, I don't know why Apple think that they

00:50:05   deserve to say you can't do any kind of

00:50:10   account generation.

00:50:13   I don't think I'm following you here. I mean,

00:50:17   I have to admit I am surprised that this took a turn into

00:50:21   Apple's 30%. I think that doesn't need to...

00:50:23   - Maybe I'm not being completely clear about what I'm talking about.

00:50:25   - I don't think that needs to be relevant because there are these two issues.

00:50:28   There's the issue of does our box play your stuff? And historically, Amazon,

00:50:36   you know, again, does not have an app. There's a Netflix app on the Apple TV,

00:50:39   but there's not an Amazon app. But there is an Amazon video app on the iPad,

00:50:43   and there is a Netflix app on the iPad. And the Amazon app, you can't,

00:50:47   just like there's a Kindle app, you can get to your stuff, but you can't buy it on the device.

00:50:52   You can't subscribe other than in Safari. You can't do it in the app. And that's dumb,

00:51:00   but at least you can watch your stuff. I don't think people are signing up for Prime

00:51:04   necessarily on these devices in app. And so maybe it's not that big an issue. Now separately,

00:51:10   which is your point, is that's still a bad experience. And that's got to be part of the

00:51:16   conversation here is it's a much better experience like imagine all the

00:51:21   engineering work that Comixology had to do to rip out all their stuff they did a

00:51:24   whole update of their app that essentially was trying to make it more

00:51:28   palatable after they had to rip out all the all the commerce on iOS and this is

00:51:33   all because of this 30% thing that Apple is charging that that you know Amazon

00:51:39   doesn't want to pay because I have the margins for it yeah can't give they

00:51:43   can't give those margins to Apple. So like it's just I maybe didn't connect

00:51:49   the dots correctly but basically my feeling on this is that Amazon are

00:51:54   unhappy with any device in which they can't sign up customers on. So like

00:52:01   they you know with the iPad app for example you can just go to Safari and

00:52:06   sign up for a Prime account but you can't do that on the Apple TV there's no

00:52:09   flow for that so if somebody downloaded it like they want to be able to push

00:52:13   people to new accounts. That's my assumption here and which is why I feel

00:52:17   like there's always been this problem. Because I was really surprised to see

00:52:21   Netflix is now selling their subscriptions via in-app purchase and I

00:52:27   really wonder I look at that and be like, are they gonna let Apple take 30% of

00:52:32   that? I wonder if it is the standard deal. You know, you look at that

00:52:37   and I don't know if Netflix needed that but they've done it. I mean in Apple

00:52:41   a proton and like crazy for doing it. So I really wonder what the play is. I mean

00:52:46   maybe it's because there doesn't seem to be any preferential treatment for the

00:52:51   Apple TV because they've come out and said Apple have said that the the what

00:52:57   the API to have your content show up in universal search is available to all.

00:53:03   You know so it's stuff like I'm like wonder why Netflix did it so like all of

00:53:06   this adds fuel to the fire for me and like that there is something about the

00:53:10   creation of accounts that hold is holding up Amazon that's my feeling

00:53:15   about this anyway yeah I don't know what's going on with the Netflix thing

00:53:21   and if they are I mean so far everything I've heard from Apple is that 30% is 30%

00:53:25   that's just the deal and so is it possible the Netflix is just figures

00:53:30   that the that it's more important to acquire those customers and pay up over

00:53:34   30% than it is to not, and that maybe they will try to do something later to convert

00:53:43   them, or is it that Apple cut them a deal and they're only paying Apple 10% or something

00:53:48   like that? Maybe they feel it's just an important percentage of their customer base, but not

00:53:52   a huge percentage, and they'd rather have them at a lower rate than not have them.

00:53:57   Yeah, like maybe Netflix know the amount of people that download their app, try to sign

00:54:00   on and have no account.

00:54:02   Also something like Amazon Prime is problematic because Amazon Prime Video is not a video

00:54:07   streaming service.

00:54:08   It's part of a much larger package, and I'm sure Amazon is not willing to give Apple 30%

00:54:12   of a package that only includes the video.

00:54:16   Right?

00:54:17   It makes even—Amazon's business doesn't make a lot of sense with the 30% model.

00:54:21   That's why you can't buy books in the Kindle app.

00:54:23   It's because Amazon's whole business is based on these low margins.

00:54:26   There's no room there for them to hand somebody through.

00:54:31   not a business designed for a middleman, right? And Apple is the middleman here.

00:54:36   When it comes to selling of content, like, who are Apple to boss Amazon around, right?

00:54:41   Like, they're both so huge, right? It's like, why should we have to do anything you tell us,

00:54:48   you know? I, you know, and I hate the subject. I hate the subject because it says to me,

00:54:53   I feel like this is some of Apple's worst tendencies. Yeah. You know, and you get that

00:55:01   aspect of wanting complete control and being a dictator is what gets you a lot of positive

00:55:07   things about Apple stuff. But this also has to me the width of one of, I think, the least

00:55:15   enjoyable parts of Apple's personality as a company, which is this idea that anybody

00:55:22   who's making money in their playground owes them a cut because they're making money off

00:55:26   of Apple's greatness. And, you know, in some circumstances maybe that's true, but at some

00:55:34   point it becomes, I feel like, more than that. It's not about that anymore. Like, is degrading—we've

00:55:41   talked about this before, we talked about this about Comixology—is degrading the user

00:55:44   experience of being a comic book reader on an iPad worth it to Apple because they need

00:55:52   that cash? If you're going to sell comics on my platform, you've got to give me the

00:55:55   cash, I need that cash." Well, they don't really need it. I think if Apple is ever at

00:56:00   a point where their business is really based on making 30% of a skim off of everything

00:56:05   that's sold in their financial transactions in the App Store and through iTunes IDs, then

00:56:10   their business is in trouble because that's not really their business, that's a side business,

00:56:15   and taking some reasonable cut is fine, but 30% is a pretty large cut. And for an established

00:56:20   business like Amazon, it's incompatible. And so Apple has said, "Hey, comic book readers,

00:56:26   here's the most popular comic book reader on the platform, and it's going to be worse

00:56:31   now because we have this 30% rule and that's just how it has to be." That bugs me. That

00:56:36   bugs me because I feel like the users get hurt because Apple and Amazon are fighting

00:56:41   over this. And in this case, I'm going to take Amazon's side and say, "Amazon's business

00:56:45   is not built so that they can give Apple 30%. They can't do it. They can't do it because

00:56:52   they're acting as the middleman. There can't be another middleman. So, you know, I feel

00:57:00   like the reasonable solution here would be for Apple to either have these tough negotiations

00:57:04   behind the scenes, which who knows, might happen and that may not have gone well and

00:57:08   that may be why we saw Amazon take its ball and go home like they did, but or

00:57:15   throw Apple's ball in its face and stalk off the field that might be a better

00:57:19   metaphor for it. Or have Apple say we're gonna work with a few partners

00:57:25   who are trusted, you know, trusted third-party partners who have their own

00:57:29   existing commerce sites and let them do in-app purchases but it's gonna be

00:57:34   limited to this list and I people always complain it's like no no no Apple can't

00:57:37   do that, it's got to be fair and it's got to be the same for everybody." It doesn't.

00:57:41   It absolutely doesn't. It's Apple's store. It's Apple's rules. Apple can do whatever

00:57:44   it wants. Apple could very easily say, "These five outside parties, we're going to allow

00:57:49   this," because they're established and they have these much more complicated businesses.

00:57:54   Apple could do that if it wanted, I think, and it wouldn't be a big deal for them and

00:57:59   for their business. And it would probably improve the quality of buying books and stuff

00:58:06   like that on iOS devices through Amazon that much better.

00:58:12   But I feel that on the flip side in the same instance, if Amazon want to remove products

00:58:18   from their store they can. It's their store and they can do whatever they want.

00:58:21   Sure! It's their store! Amazon's not a public utility.

00:58:24   No. Amazon, and that's what I was saying initially,

00:58:27   is I see the argument, again, I don't read it this way. If Amazon had done this maybe

00:58:32   a little more quietly. I don't, I don't think this is actually why it went down the way

00:58:36   it is, but I see the argument that if you're Amazon and you're really invested in getting

00:58:40   people to sign up for Prime and use this video service and there are these devices that don't

00:58:45   support what you're doing, I can see taking them off, not because you're trying to improve

00:58:50   a point to their manufacturers, but because it's confusing to some of your customers and

00:58:57   they have every right to make those decisions. Just like every merchant has a right to decide

00:59:01   what gets stocked in their stores.

00:59:03   Yeah.

00:59:04   All right, there's one other thing that I wanted to mention today because it news broke

00:59:08   this morning and we've spoken about it a ton, that Jack Dorsey is back in as Twitter CEO.

00:59:15   Yeah, Jack's back.

00:59:18   Jack is back.

00:59:19   I mean, you know, we were talking about it.

00:59:20   I mean, do you have any feelings on it right now?

00:59:23   I mean, it's kind of a bit like it's like, okay, what now?

00:59:28   Like you know, what are you going to do?

00:59:30   He had a tweet storm this morning.

00:59:34   - He did, good.

00:59:35   - And yeah, that's kind of the guess,

00:59:39   the way you should do it, right?

00:59:40   I liked it, it was good.

00:59:41   I'll put a link in the show notes to his tweet

00:59:44   and also to Adam Bain's tweet

00:59:46   and you can kind of see the tweet storms trailing off them.

00:59:49   Adam Bain is now the COO.

00:59:51   This was the change that people wanted to see.

00:59:55   This was the exact changes that people were asking for.

00:59:59   I am hopeful for difference in Twitter.

01:00:03   I mean, I believe in Dorsey.

01:00:05   I endorse-y him.

01:00:08   Not saying that again.

01:00:11   But I'm interested to see where it goes now.

01:00:15   I think that Twitter as a company clearly is aware

01:00:18   that they have to make some changes.

01:00:20   And again, as we've said before,

01:00:21   that doesn't mean that it's gonna be the changes we like,

01:00:24   but it's just gonna be changes.

01:00:27   - Yeah, we don't know.

01:00:29   But boy, he does sound like he gets the product.

01:00:32   That's what I think we've been saying all along here,

01:00:34   is that he knows and understands the product,

01:00:36   and he loves it, he cares about Twitter,

01:00:37   he wants it to be better.

01:00:38   There was an interesting story

01:00:40   that came out over the weekend

01:00:41   about sort of like the personal growth of Jack Dorsey,

01:00:45   and how he's changed a lot, and grown,

01:00:48   and become a much better CEO over the years,

01:00:51   and a much better listener, and a much better manager,

01:00:54   which on one level, I think, I think, uh, was a really good story.

01:00:58   And another level I had this moment of like, Hmm, I wonder what the story is

01:01:02   behind this, this particular story launching at this particular time.

01:01:05   Like how much of this is organically happening and how much of this is the

01:01:09   Jack Dorsey PR training happening.

01:01:12   But either way, um, It became very clear over the last couple of weeks that there

01:01:17   was nobody else to do this job who was, you know, that, that the other, for

01:01:22   whatever reason that this was the only name and they didn't want you know they

01:01:26   wanted him to leave Square and do this and he said no I'm not gonna do that and

01:01:31   they still did it they still hired him so clearly they didn't have some other

01:01:37   candidate in the wings that that was gonna be you know a better choice than

01:01:41   him so so it's gonna be him and he's gonna have to split his time between

01:01:44   Twitter and Square but I feel like the people at Twitter believe in him and

01:01:48   that are energized by the fact that he's back and having a founder come back and take up

01:01:54   the reins, we know that that can be a good experience. I hope it is for Twitter. It sounds

01:01:58   like they've already got a bunch of stuff in motion. And you know, I don't know if you

01:02:02   saw this, the most telling thing in the last couple of weeks about Twitter was that there's

01:02:08   this rumor that they're going to do something that breaks the 140 character limit for tweets.

01:02:12   And it's unclear whether that means something like there are going to be Twitter posts that

01:02:16   are going to be embeds in a Twitter in a tweet or whether they're going to take some of the

01:02:20   metadata and move it out of the tweet of counting it for the tweet length. It's unclear. And

01:02:26   we can debate whether that's a good or bad idea for Twitter. But this is the part that

01:02:30   really got me is they talked to somebody at Twitter, I think maybe anonymously, who said

01:02:36   there was huge internal debate about something like this. And Jack came in and said, it's

01:02:42   okay." And everybody's like, "Oh, it's okay." And then they went about their business in

01:02:47   building this feature. To me, that's like, wow, that is a company that is desperately

01:02:53   looking for vision and leadership. And as the CEO and co-founder of Twitter, Jack Dorsey

01:03:01   has the authority to say, "Here's my vision for Twitter, and we're going to do this now,"

01:03:06   and not have people be like, "Well, does it really fit? What do you think? Let's debate

01:03:10   it'll he has the ability to cut through that and say it's fine build it and I

01:03:15   get the feeling hearing that story I start to think about Twitter meandering

01:03:19   for the last few years and think yeah maybe that is one reason why is that

01:03:23   there was nobody to say you know dick Costolo didn't say we're gonna do it

01:03:27   this way about the product because I think he kind of maybe didn't care about

01:03:29   the product so much I think he was focused on other areas and I don't know

01:03:34   again I'm just I'm just in the peanut gallery here but that that's that's my

01:03:38   take on it is I was impressed with that anecdote that that was Jack saying it's

01:03:42   fine do it and and everybody felt freed to do it then. So that actually mirrors

01:03:48   completely a tweet from Adam Bain today where he said Jack has the insight as well

01:03:52   as the moral authority as a founder to push teams to make big bold changes. Yeah

01:03:57   right right because otherwise you're afraid you're am I screwing up Twitter

01:04:01   now and Jack's Jack of all people is going no it's fine oh well if Jack says

01:04:05   fine then let's do it." But it's also the other way where it's like people like

01:04:10   Jack we shouldn't do this and he's like "do you know what though? It's mine so

01:04:13   whatever like we can do about it like I came up with the idea this is another

01:04:17   idea that I've had so therefore it is the actual thing right and these those

01:04:21   things do kind of marry up in a weird way I think I'm I think it's great and

01:04:26   another tweet that I just wanted to mention which I really loved from Dorsey

01:04:31   where he's like "Twitter is the most powerful communication tool of our time

01:04:34   it shows everything the world is saying right now 10 to 15 minutes before

01:04:38   anything else. Also Adam Bain you mentioned he got promoted to COO chief

01:04:46   operating officer from chief revenue officer and I think that's telling

01:04:49   because I think that what that's saying is how is Jack gonna work as a CEO when

01:04:54   he's also the CEO somewhere else and I think the answer is he's got he's got

01:04:59   Adam Bain to do this part of this part of the job right he's gonna he's gonna

01:05:02   to keep Twitter running and focus on some of these areas, including sales and the revenue

01:05:09   stuff. I get the feeling that Jack as CEO is, in addition to being the leader of the

01:05:15   whole package, is also going to be much more focused on parts of the product, and that

01:05:20   Adam Bain gets to run parts of the business under Jack's thumbs up. That's the structure

01:05:27   that makes sense to me, too.

01:05:28   Well, because it's impossible to not compare Dorsey to Jobs right now.

01:05:32   Um, you know, if you think about the way that Steve ran Apple, especially later on,

01:05:39   he did things that interested him and that he thought was important and Tim

01:05:42   Cook took care of everything else.

01:05:43   And Tim Cook handled the rest of it.

01:05:44   And yeah.

01:05:45   Hey, it worked for them.

01:05:47   Maybe it all worked for Twitter too.

01:05:49   And Twitter doesn't need to, and doesn't do things at the scale that Apple does.

01:05:53   So...

01:05:54   It's true.

01:05:54   It's true.

01:05:55   It's a, yeah, it's, it's a much smaller group.

01:05:57   I'm excited to see where this goes.

01:05:58   - Yeah, me too.

01:05:59   At this point, we've detailed this on past shows.

01:06:03   Twitter needs to move its product forward.

01:06:06   And we may not agree with all the changes

01:06:07   that come from that,

01:06:08   but they need to move the product forward.

01:06:10   I did see somebody had a little exchange with Jack today

01:06:14   on Twitter that ended with the person saying,

01:06:17   essentially, you should bring back

01:06:20   the third-party developers.

01:06:22   And it'll be interesting to see.

01:06:25   I wouldn't put money on that happening

01:06:27   because I feel like maybe we've just gone down the road too far.

01:06:30   But I look at the state of the Twitter app on the iPad,

01:06:34   and then I look at Tweetbot 4 and Twitterific,

01:06:37   and this is so clear that Twitter as a company right now

01:06:41   can't make a good mobile experience,

01:06:45   and third-party developers can.

01:06:47   So it'll be interesting to see what they do there,

01:06:51   whether they embrace the third-party developers

01:06:53   or whether they actually make an effort

01:06:55   to get their internal mobile development team in shape.

01:06:58   What we've talked about before,

01:07:00   the whispers are that they bring talented developers

01:07:05   in to work on Twitter's mobile apps

01:07:07   and then they leave not too long after.

01:07:10   And that's a bad sign.

01:07:12   So I'm curious about how that goes,

01:07:15   about whether Twitter says,

01:07:17   "You know what, third-party apps are an important part

01:07:19   "of our ecosystem and we're gonna do more with them

01:07:21   "because that's an important part

01:07:22   "of what we need to do to grow."

01:07:24   or whether they'll say, no, no, no, we need to own that,

01:07:27   but we're gonna do a better job.

01:07:28   I don't think there's an option

01:07:30   other than one of those two though.

01:07:31   I will be grossly disappointed with the new Jack Dorsey era

01:07:36   if their presence on the iPad remains what it is now,

01:07:41   which is a joke.

01:07:42   - Well, they just shut it down

01:07:44   and point everyone to tweet, well, it's terrific.

01:07:47   - Yeah, well, my fear is that they'll shut it down

01:07:49   and point everybody at the web

01:07:51   and say, just use the web version of Twitter.

01:07:53   I think they're not that dumb.

01:07:54   No, well, yeah, you're probably right.

01:07:57   Then again, have you seen Twitter for iPad?

01:08:00   I know, but at least it looks better than what they had before.

01:08:03   I know there's a lot of white space, which is terrible, but that previous version was just horrific.

01:08:08   Yeah, it was.

01:08:09   It was.

01:08:10   So, you know, we live in hope.

01:08:12   We do indeed. Should we do some Ask Upgrade?

01:08:14   Yeah, it's a good idea.

01:08:15   Would you like to thank our Ask Upgrade sponsor this week, Jason?

01:08:18   Yes, I would. I would like to thank them.

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01:09:28   a way that I never look forward to shipping anything because all I have to do is sit at

01:09:32   my desk and print out some stuff and affix the labels and then I'm good to go. I don't

01:09:36   even need to go to the post office if I don't want to. It's very exciting. Stamps.com is

01:09:40   providing a special offer to upgrade listeners. You use promo code UPGRADE with a special

01:09:46   offer at Stamps.com. Four-week trial plus a $110 bonus offer including postage and a

01:09:53   digital scale. So don't wait. Go to Stamps.com. Before you do anything else, click on the

01:09:58   microphone at the top of the homepage and type in "upgrade." That's Stamps.com. Enter

01:10:03   "upgrade." Thank you to Stamps.com for supporting upgrade and #AskUpgrade.

01:10:09   #AskUpgrade. I need to get an actual sound effect for you. Justin has asked, "Regarding

01:10:18   display zoom, do you use standard or zoomed?" I use standard. I use standard too. Wow, on

01:10:27   the 6 Plus, well, you know, you're taking full advantage of the room then. I know some

01:10:31   Some people—so my wife uses it zoomed on the 6 because she's getting a little far-sighted.

01:10:42   She needs reading glasses now, so she uses it zoomed.

01:10:46   So when she went from the 5 to the 6, she put it in zoomed mode, and that means that

01:10:52   she's got essentially the same real estate as she had on the 5, but everything's bigger.

01:10:57   And that works—that's actually worked great.

01:11:00   she was struggling with cranking up the font size on things, and that's really inconsistent

01:11:04   in iOS, because not everybody's using the right font APIs in their apps, and so now

01:11:10   she's using it Zoomed. But I'm still on standard.

01:11:13   So if you remember, many weeks ago, I spoke about my mum getting a new phone for my mum.

01:11:19   We got her a 6, it came a couple of days ago, and I set her up on it. She is using it standard,

01:11:25   but she has the text bumped all the way up and bold text on, because it makes it easier

01:11:29   for her to see. But she loves the iPhone 6. She loves it. She's coming from a 5c.

01:11:36   We've got touch ID set up which she thinks is awesome because she wasn't

01:11:40   using a passcode before. So we set her up with touch ID. Although she found the

01:11:45   whole process of enabling touch ID hilarious she just was really giggling.

01:11:48   Like, you know, keep lifting your thumb, let your finger or

01:11:52   thumb point up and down up and down. I was telling her to do it and she just

01:11:56   thought it was so funny to the point where she couldn't stop laughing so much

01:11:59   that I had to hold her hand and do it for her. It was a whole big family silly

01:12:04   moment but she really really loves it. She thinks she loves the big screen. She

01:12:09   did say that she kind of wishes it was bigger like she's interested in the plus

01:12:13   but she wouldn't be able to use it. It would be too big for her hands which she

01:12:17   understands but she really does like her six a lot and I'm happy that we've

01:12:22   got her on a new phone and she seems really happy about it and she's

01:12:26   learning how to use apps more and she transferred her banking app overall by

01:12:30   herself and stuff which is great because like my mom has never used a computer

01:12:34   like she uses a Windows machine at work which she only knows how to use that

01:12:38   exact machine with the programs in the exact way right she's one of those kinds of

01:12:42   people that she knows how to use. My dad never used computers but I set

01:12:48   him up with an Excel spreadsheet for his office's accounting for his books.

01:12:53   It was just an Excel spreadsheet with tabs for every month.

01:12:57   And every year I would make him a new one and he never did anything else ever on a

01:13:01   computer, but he knew how to turn on the Mac SE, I think, or maybe it was a Mac 2.

01:13:06   It ended up being a 2C-I after a while.

01:13:09   Um, and he knew to click on the folder with the year and click on the

01:13:14   month and put in the numbers.

01:13:16   and that was it, but he knew how to do that one thing.

01:13:19   That was using a computer.

01:13:21   - Yep, 'cause that's exactly it.

01:13:23   That is computer, right?

01:13:24   But yeah, she knows how to use her iPhone.

01:13:27   She was talking to me the other day about Googling things.

01:13:29   Like, it's awesome.

01:13:30   And I love that this device is easy enough

01:13:32   for her to understand.

01:13:33   But we did have that conversation again.

01:13:35   I had it with her as I have on this show a lot

01:13:37   about the complexity stuff.

01:13:39   Like, she completely agrees with me about how there are,

01:13:41   you know, as it gets more complex,

01:13:43   it's harder for her to understand

01:13:44   because something changes in the phone that she doesn't get.

01:13:48   So she just knows if there's anything she doesn't get,

01:13:50   she needs to tell me.

01:13:51   Because plus I say to her,

01:13:52   it also is really good for the shows

01:13:53   because it gives me something to talk about.

01:13:55   - Yeah.

01:13:56   - Wimsey asked, what's your solution

01:13:58   for storing all of the watch bands that you own?

01:14:00   I just put mine in a drawer,

01:14:03   which is in my bedside cabinet.

01:14:05   - Yep.

01:14:06   - I don't have like a box or anything.

01:14:08   - Yep, that's mine too.

01:14:09   It's in the drawer.

01:14:11   Drawer solution.

01:14:13   I look at them now, now that I have another one, I look at them and think, I should probably

01:14:18   do something about that, but I haven't done anything beyond just have them around.

01:14:21   I would love to see someone make a little box.

01:14:27   Mickey wants to know what we think will come first.

01:14:30   Apple stopping selling 16GB iPhones or more free iCloud storage.

01:14:38   Can I choose the death of the universe?

01:14:40   end of time the sun expanding into a red giant and melting the earth every now and then i mean you

01:14:47   will have seen this more than me but i feel like in the time that i've been interested in this stuff

01:14:52   there is a story in apple press that becomes a thing and it becomes like a mcguffin for a while

01:15:00   and the 16 gigabyte iphone one is that now to the point where i think apple are kind of into a

01:15:07   corner of having to change it because now it's being brought up in reviews in

01:15:12   the more general tech press like it needs to come out because if they don't

01:15:16   stop it now for the iPhone 7 it's gonna it's gonna get away from them and it

01:15:22   could end up being a bigger point than it is now so I think that no matter what

01:15:27   they were intending with the way that the discussion because we'll just keep

01:15:30   talking about this for the next eight months we will it's gonna have to go

01:15:35   away the 16 gigabyte now that's my feeling and if they don't do it then

01:15:39   they need to they need to have a very clear reason as to why that they are

01:15:43   will communicate to people then again it gives us something to talk about and

01:15:47   that's you know these the next 50 shows aren't gonna talk themselves I mean

01:15:51   that's the problem right because we need stuff to talk about so we'll keep

01:15:54   talking about that right so that's why they have to change it because the press

01:15:58   just keep going around and around I'm gonna go with you next fall is an

01:16:02   opportunity for Apple to revisit the 16 gig lower end when they do the iPhone 7.

01:16:08   It seems like a perfectly appropriate time to go up to 32 or more, but let's

01:16:15   say 32 with the low-end model.

01:16:18   And they had the opportunity, they changed the iCloud storage rates so

01:16:23   infrequently and they just changed them and they didn't increase the free

01:16:27   number from five to 10.

01:16:29   So my gut feeling is that will probably take longer.

01:16:33   Although there's so much, oh,

01:16:37   topic for another episode, we'll preview this.

01:16:40   There's so much more that needs to be done

01:16:43   on the shared services in a family.

01:16:48   'Cause I was trying this weekend

01:16:49   to get my wife's iPhone to back up

01:16:52   to my terabyte of iCloud storage that I'm paying for.

01:16:56   and I can't do it without losing Find My iPhone, basically,

01:17:00   or Find Friends for her,

01:17:01   because you have to choose one or the other.

01:17:03   And it's just, there's so many things they need to fix.

01:17:06   So sometimes I wonder about that, like,

01:17:08   could families pool,

01:17:09   or could you have a bunch of different devices

01:17:11   that each get five gigabytes that increment

01:17:13   toward a larger number up to a limit?

01:17:16   Lots of things they could do there,

01:17:17   but my gut feeling is since they didn't do it

01:17:19   when they just revised all the plans,

01:17:21   that they probably won't do it again

01:17:23   for a couple of years at least,

01:17:24   because they would have done it if they were planning on doing that.

01:17:30   And finally today, Oz would like to know if we have any thoughts on the round Pebble design.

01:17:34   So Pebble came out with another new watch called the Pebble Time Round, which is a round

01:17:39   face and it has some slightly different features I believe.

01:17:42   I haven't looked into this too much to be honest, Jason, which I think is inherently

01:17:46   part of the problem.

01:17:48   I say to them, "Bravo for trying new things."

01:17:51   I think I like the idea.

01:17:54   I think the bezel is too much.

01:17:57   I mean, I can accept the little flat tire thing

01:18:02   on the Moto 360.

01:18:03   I agree, well, I buy Motorola's reasoning for that,

01:18:08   which is I say is otherwise they would need a bezel,

01:18:12   probably like this one,

01:18:13   'cause they need to put the display driver somewhere.

01:18:16   I think that this is more of an indication to me

01:18:21   that Pebble are in trouble because it's another version.

01:18:27   Yeah, they're trying everything. I will note that it's now a two-day battery life. It used

01:18:35   to be like six, six or seven. Now it's down to two.

01:18:39   I think this is because it's so thin maybe?

01:18:41   Yeah.

01:18:42   Maybe? I don't know.

01:18:43   Could be. I think it looks nice, although the bezel is huge. Bevel. Bevel, bubble. But

01:18:51   I admit that I've written off Pebble because I don't think their iOS story is compelling.

01:19:01   I think even their Android one is getting harder to do.

01:19:04   Because some of these device makers now are making full-on smartwatches with full-color

01:19:10   screens that are real little computers that Pebble don't make that, but the battery life

01:19:17   is starting to get better and better and better on these Motorola stuff and the Asus stuff.

01:19:21   They're losing their competitive advantage day by day now.

01:19:25   Yeah, it's tough for them.

01:19:28   Especially if their competitive advantage is battery life and they've just released a really good-looking one

01:19:32   but they've cut the battery life significantly, then at that point, why would you not go for a Moto 360? I don't know.

01:19:40   For $250. I mean, that's the other thing is if this was a $99 watch, then I would say, "Oh, well, that's nice."

01:19:46   Because I do think there's a market for a cheap, light smartwatch, something that doesn't really do a lot.

01:19:51   but it shows the time and maybe it gives you some notifications or maybe it's a tracker or something,

01:19:55   but it's cheap and it's, you know, but this is 250 for this, so that doesn't seem cheap to me.

01:20:03   That seems like a lot. I don't think they got a long time left in them. I especially don't think

01:20:13   they have long left in their current size and scale. I wonder if at some point they might be

01:20:20   be an aqua hire kind of thing where they've been thinking about you know

01:20:23   they've been thinking about smartwatch stuff for a while and if somebody might

01:20:27   buy them just for their engineers and all that but there may be too much it

01:20:31   may just be too late and and I don't know we'll see. If you're a company like

01:20:35   Motorola, Asus, somebody like that you know these guys and girls have been

01:20:42   doing this for longer than anyone you should you should get them because you

01:20:47   know that that software idea for the Pebble Time I thought was really smart

01:20:51   and innovative you know you know like the way that everything was in a

01:20:54   timeline I thought that was really clever and it made a lot of sense so

01:20:59   this is the type of stuff that they could think about because they've been

01:21:01   doing this for as long as they have so I think somebody should consider scooping

01:21:05   them up maybe we should buy them upgrade timepieces exchange for some relay stock

01:21:12   yeah yeah we'll work on that work on that if you want to find show notes for

01:21:16   this week's episode head on over to relay.fm/upgrade/57. If you want to find Jason online he's over

01:21:23   at SixColors.com and he's @JSNEL on Twitter, J S N E double L. I am @imike, I M Y K E.

01:21:32   Thank you so much for listening as always, we really appreciate it. If you have questions,

01:21:36   comments, thoughts, follow up, follow out, follow in, you can use the hashtag #askupgrade.

01:21:40   It is a great way to get all of that stuff to us because we look at it for all of those

01:21:45   reasons. And thanks again to our sponsors, the great people over at lynda.com, gotomeeting

01:21:51   and stamps.com. And we'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye Jason Snow.

01:21:56   Bye Myke Hurley.

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