54: Put a Pen on It


00:00:00   *

00:00:25   at Lindo.com, Stamps.com, Fracture, and FanJule.

00:00:28   My name is Myke Hurley, and I am joined in person

00:00:31   to my left by Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:33   - I am leftmost, hello.

00:00:35   - Hello, and we have Steven Hackett's back again.

00:00:37   - I was told this was clockwise, is this not clockwise?

00:00:40   - It's a totally different show.

00:00:42   Thank you so much for filling in for me.

00:00:43   I enjoy listening to the episode very much.

00:00:46   - Good, it was a lot of fun to do it.

00:00:47   You were on a plane.

00:00:49   - I think I just got off my first flight.

00:00:51   I was in Canada at the time.

00:00:54   and I saw the little notification that you were going live

00:00:57   and it made me very happy and I listened to it back later on

00:01:00   and as I watched the Apple event when I arrived in Portland,

00:01:03   just sat for a few hours, watched the video.

00:01:06   So yeah, I feel like I'm kind of caught up,

00:01:08   but we're having a good time here in XOXO.

00:01:10   - Yeah.

00:01:11   Yeah, this is like a, it's like half upgrade,

00:01:14   half connected, it's weird.

00:01:15   - Yeah. - Strange.

00:01:15   - Mixing it all up.

00:01:17   I thought we'd just talk about some of the Apple stuff.

00:01:19   I've got some thoughts that I wanna share

00:01:20   that obviously I haven't been able to share yet

00:01:21   so I'm excited to do those.

00:01:23   Myke was right and continues to be right. So we're going to go through that a bit

00:01:28   today I think and maybe talk about XOXO a little bit. But first I want to start off

00:01:32   with a little story, Jason, about what happens if you have a very, very light computer. Would

00:01:39   you like to tell the world what happens if you own an 11-inch MacBook Air?

00:01:43   So I'm driving to the airport to come up here on Thursday and I'm listening to the

00:01:52   The Accidental Tech Podcast, a podcast about technology you may be familiar with.

00:01:57   At one point, Marco says, "You know, I'd rather have an 11-inch MacBook Air than an

00:02:02   iPad Pro."

00:02:04   And I suddenly go, "Huh?"

00:02:09   And have this moment of, "I don't think I brought my laptop with me.

00:02:14   I think it's still charging for the flight at home."

00:02:17   and I rip open my bag and stick my hand in the little spot where the laptop goes.

00:02:25   There's nothing there.

00:02:26   And where were you at this point?

00:02:28   Oakland.

00:02:29   I was halfway to the Oakland airport.

00:02:30   I was at the junction of the 880 and 980 freeways in traffic.

00:02:37   So I had about two minutes to sit in traffic before I would turn around to decide if I

00:02:41   wanted to go to Portland without my laptop.

00:02:44   When I have a couple of podcasts I need to edit and I don't have those files with me

00:02:49   without the laptop or whether I just want to turn around.

00:02:52   And I decided that although there were interesting things to see here, the real big meat of the

00:02:58   conference didn't start until Friday.

00:03:00   And spending another day at home when I've got a lot of work to do is, you know, I could

00:03:05   do that.

00:03:06   And so I turned around and I went home because there's no way I could go back home and get

00:03:10   the laptop and then come back and make my flight.

00:03:12   I left myself time but I didn't leave myself enough time to go to the airport and back

00:03:17   twice, which John Seracusa told me is how he lives his life.

00:03:22   You got to be able to just expect to turn around at the airport and go back home again,

00:03:27   do a lap.

00:03:28   You need a pack-in list my friend.

00:03:30   You know, I've never done this before and honestly the reason I did it, I did it out

00:03:35   of the sequence because I was concerned that I wasn't going to have the files and I was

00:03:38   going to forget. So it was actually in a place that it isn't normally, specifically because

00:03:43   I was trying to be sure I didn't forget it.

00:03:49   It seemed to have worked really well.

00:03:50   Yeah, it's a great system.

00:03:51   I'm going to go back to my old system now.

00:03:53   You've already got a fail-safe system going on there, Jason.

00:03:56   I'm going to go back to my old system. But I'm on a winning streak now, because the

00:04:00   next day I flew to Portland and I had all my stuff with me.

00:04:03   Excellent.

00:04:04   Jason was it you years ago when the MacBook Air first came out talking about losing it

00:04:09   in a stack of magazines?

00:04:10   That was not me.

00:04:11   It was someone.

00:04:12   That was an article.

00:04:13   Was it David Pogue who recycled his MacBook Air?

00:04:15   Yeah that's what it was.

00:04:16   What?

00:04:17   It was David Pogue or maybe it was Steven Levy.

00:04:19   It was a guy I think of as a New York guy and they got the Sun in New York Times and

00:04:23   they recycled it and they recycled the MacBook Air with it.

00:04:27   Which is, that's an awkward call to Apple PR.

00:04:29   It is recyclable aluminum.

00:04:31   But it's true.

00:04:32   Non-BVC.

00:04:33   sure that they… yeah that was a great call to Apple PR. I lost… I think I may have

00:04:38   put it in with the Sunday Times. So yeah, not good. So I got here a day late and a dollar

00:04:48   short.

00:04:49   We've got a lovely little Mac.

00:04:50   Yeah and I got it. It's here. I actually didn't need to bring it as badly because

00:04:53   I did a lot of that podcast editing work on Thursday night when I had nothing else to

00:04:57   do.

00:04:58   So we're at that time of year, the great time of year where we have an abundance of

00:05:02   news. It's even wassa because last week obviously Apple announced everything.

00:05:06   Every... all the things. 100% of everything. All the great things. Except for the Mac.

00:05:11   Yeah we'll get to that. I want to talk a little bit about the event and further just put a

00:05:17   point on why I think I was right about the iPads. Oh yes, tell me more. So obviously

00:05:22   the whole thing being I said that I believed that they would put iPads in the iPhone event

00:05:27   so they could promote the iPad with the world watching. That was my original thought. After

00:05:33   watching the event, I think that Apple really made a point of this because they put the

00:05:39   iPhones at the end this time. They were making people wait. That's my theory. They wanted

00:05:45   people to see the iPad, they wanted them to see the Apple TV, so they put the iPhones

00:05:49   right at the end of the event.

00:05:50   I think they always do that.

00:05:51   Well, last year the watch event was first.

00:05:55   Because of the watch. I think usually the iPhone goes last because it's the big thing,

00:06:00   but they wanted the watch to be bigger.

00:06:02   I actually think considering the way that Apple works now over the last couple of years,

00:06:08   and they are a Q4 company.

00:06:10   Oh yeah, so seasonal.

00:06:12   I think having just one event, you set up the entire lineup of products for the holiday

00:06:17   season and just let it go. I think it's a smart move. For me, it works. I like it. You

00:06:23   You just do it all in one go.

00:06:25   Everybody knows what's there.

00:06:26   You say we've got things coming out in September, October, November, and then just let it run.

00:06:31   I can see that.

00:06:33   The second event is never going to be as effective as the first event.

00:06:38   And just from a logistical, I know we can talk about Apple is so big and they've got

00:06:41   so much money, but the fact is it's a distraction to, I talked to, when I talk to like Apple

00:06:47   PR people and other people who work at Apple about it, it's like these events are insane.

00:06:52   They kind of tore up…

00:06:53   It must be all consuming for these people.

00:06:55   My understanding is like the seats in the venue and everything were installed by Apple.

00:06:58   Like they took that venue in San Francisco for a couple of weeks and built the set essentially

00:07:06   for their presentation.

00:07:08   You know, yes they could do a second smaller presentation in something like Town Hall on

00:07:13   campus but you know they still have to plan it and invite people and do all that stuff

00:07:18   and there is a cost to that and it is a distraction.

00:07:23   So I can see from that perspective why Apple would maybe want to…

00:07:27   Also Apple can call journalists for briefings and can do press releases and can do video

00:07:32   releases and things.

00:07:33   Apple can release a product without an event if it wants to.

00:07:36   So it's not like it has to have an event.

00:07:38   If there are new Macs to drop, they don't need an event for that.

00:07:41   They can do that and still get publicity for it.

00:07:44   Right. You know, talking about going into this venue and spending all this time and

00:07:49   money, you know, Campus 2 has a huge underground auditorium planned. And so you can't help

00:07:54   but think that a lot of that has to do with this amount of work, where if they have a

00:08:00   space that they control completely and it's exactly the way they want it.

00:08:04   Right. They'll just invite everybody there.

00:08:05   Yeah.

00:08:06   Well, and they can have it. They can run practices on it.

00:08:10   Yeah.

00:08:11   It's like, you know, there's always that game of like websites trying to figure out

00:08:15   where Apple is booked in San Francisco.

00:08:17   And…

00:08:18   Which I love this year because they actually showed that document that went through the

00:08:20   San Francisco city government that showed a star or square will be placed here.

00:08:25   It's like, "That's an Apple logo."

00:08:27   Yeah.

00:08:28   So, I mean, I think once Campus 2 is up and running, some of the headache would go away.

00:08:32   Yeah.

00:08:33   You know, it's going to make a longer trip for you though.

00:08:36   Yeah, that's fine.

00:08:37   They have…

00:08:38   I understand they have plenty of parking down there.

00:08:39   Yeah.

00:08:40   - It's just one of those things you do at Apple

00:08:44   over the years.

00:08:45   Their events have gotten bigger and sort of more involved.

00:08:50   Of course, they don't do the thing,

00:08:51   I love when you watch the old keynotes

00:08:52   where like an iMac comes out on a moving podium.

00:08:55   It like spins around.

00:08:57   - Yeah, they used to do that where someone,

00:08:58   there would always be like a podium by the side of the stage

00:09:00   and they'd go and just take the little cloth off.

00:09:02   But now like Tim seems to,

00:09:04   his way is to come from side of the stage

00:09:07   with the product over his head.

00:09:08   - Well, it used to be heavier.

00:09:09   You can't hold an iMac G3 above your head. You'd be crushed to death.

00:09:13   But that's Tim's thing. I quite like it. He kind of just like swamps us across the stage

00:09:18   with the thing above his head.

00:09:19   And smiling because he knows that all the news photographers are taking the pictures

00:09:22   and those are the pictures that'll be with all the stories about it.

00:09:24   He understands that stuff. Like saying about that, he's gonna be on… whose show is it?

00:09:30   Stephen Colbert.

00:09:31   Colbert. That's crazy, right?

00:09:32   Well, I mean, Stephen Colbert was in an Apple event. In the Apple Watch event.

00:09:36   Yeah.

00:09:37   Trade-off.

00:09:38   So, I think that's one of the things, not to get too deep down in TV stuff, you can

00:09:44   listen to my TV Talk Machine podcast for more about that.

00:09:48   Plug.

00:09:50   Colbert is doing some interesting things in terms of, I mean he's obviously, he likes

00:09:54   tech stuff, he likes Apple stuff, but he's trying to get an interesting mix of guests

00:09:58   on his show.

00:09:59   He doesn't want it to just be like movie actors.

00:10:02   And so he's had politicians on and he had Elon Musk on and he's going to have Tim

00:10:07   Cook on and I think that's all good. So it'll be interesting to see that and how

00:10:11   Apple plays the CEO of Apple on a late night talk show thing.

00:10:15   Yeah. This is one of those things where I'm not going to be able to watch that easily.

00:10:18   This is a frustrating thing that I always find.

00:10:20   Right, because you'll be like geo-blocked from watching.

00:10:22   Yeah. It's like, you know, then I have to like wait for the YouTube stuff and then I

00:10:26   can maybe try and find it. But it's just one of those examples where it's like, just

00:10:29   let me watch it.

00:10:30   Yeah.

00:10:31   Here's five pounds. I will give you. Just let me watch this one.

00:10:33   I don't understand why shows that don't sell, I mean some late night shows from America

00:10:39   air in Britain.

00:10:40   Yeah.

00:10:41   I don't think Colbert does.

00:10:42   Yeah, so if you don't, then there should be a worldwide something or other.

00:10:46   Just let me give you some money.

00:10:47   Yeah.

00:10:48   Like I don't know, just here's some money.

00:10:49   Yeah.

00:10:50   Show me the ads, whatever.

00:10:51   Like, just.

00:10:52   But hey.

00:10:53   For the American products you can't buy.

00:10:55   Can we go back to the iPad Pro a little bit?

00:10:57   Yeah, yeah.

00:10:58   Because obviously I haven't had any way to talk about this yet.

00:11:01   This is essentially our second upgrade in less than a week because we did the episode

00:11:04   on Wednesday, you and I, Steven, pointing at Steven. It's good podcasting, nobody

00:11:09   can see it. And now we're doing one recording on Sunday. So this is more like if ever there

00:11:16   was a week to do this, this is it. We've had a little more time to think about it now.

00:11:19   Myke's just been podcasting by himself in his hotel room.

00:11:22   It's very sad.

00:11:23   He's like talking to the hotel clerk, like, "What do you think about the Apple pencil?"

00:11:27   He's holding the hairdryer and talking into it like it's a microphone.

00:11:30   What do you like to be known for?

00:11:32   So I like the look of the iPad Pro.

00:11:35   I think it's an interesting product.

00:11:38   I'm still trying to understand a little bit about why it exists.

00:11:42   I think Apple did a really good job of bringing the companies that they needed on stage.

00:11:48   Because I think, remember, me and you were talking about why, what was it, when we were

00:11:53   saying Adobe should be there.

00:11:54   I think it was at the last event.

00:11:57   Oh yeah, where they did the metal stuff.

00:12:00   And they did game demos and they didn't bring up Adobe.

00:12:02   And so Adobe were there.

00:12:03   They did a great demo.

00:12:05   I mean, there was some questionable stuff

00:12:06   about some of the content in it.

00:12:08   But the applications themselves were very good.

00:12:11   Creative professionals working on the iPad

00:12:14   was-- everything was right about it except the detail.

00:12:18   The example they gave was really awful.

00:12:21   Yeah, that was just ridiculous.

00:12:23   one of those complete oversights where it's like this seems like a great idea but they

00:12:27   just absolutely screwed it up.

00:12:29   I thought it was fitting in the sense that just as a brief tangent on what we're talking

00:12:33   about is they have this plug-in that makes, they made a woman, a model smile more and

00:12:39   that plays into all those sort of like women often are told like even walking down the

00:12:43   street you should smile honey and things like that. It's really offensive to a lot of

00:12:47   women that this is reinforcing that but I also looked at that and thought well this

00:12:52   is Photoshop right? I mean Photoshop is all about unrealistic images of everybody. That's

00:12:58   what Photoshop is. But if we get beside the details of it, it was like an old school Mac

00:13:04   kind of thing. It was a creative professional like we're going to do a mock-up layout

00:13:08   and we're going to edit these images and it's all happening on the iPad. And that

00:13:12   was an intentional and I think smart thing to be like, "Hey, remember Adobe and Microsoft?

00:13:18   giants of office and creative work on your computer, here they are on the iPad Pro.

00:13:25   So one of the things I liked with what they were doing with the apps is it seemed like

00:13:29   the guy was editing an image in one app with the split screen on the iPad and he was able

00:13:34   to just make it appear in the other app, like it was using some sort of shared file architecture,

00:13:39   maybe it's iCloud, maybe it's something else.

00:13:41   But I just liked that these two apps were talking to each other whilst next to each

00:13:45   other like that.

00:13:46   And as I see in stuff like that looked really great.

00:13:48   Like when Microsoft was showing off,

00:13:50   I think it was Excel and PowerPoint,

00:13:52   and they were like taking a table

00:13:54   and you move it into the other one.

00:13:55   And it really felt like a great way

00:13:58   to use these kind of split screen applications.

00:14:00   Although it did point out that the drag and drop doesn't

00:14:06   exist in iOS 9.

00:14:07   Right.

00:14:08   Developers have to-- if you're using two Adobe apps,

00:14:10   especially Microsoft apps, you are using

00:14:11   things that they have built. It's not

00:14:13   like the Microsoft demo a couple years ago,

00:14:15   where you can bring things and it's context aware and content aware where you can pick

00:14:19   an image up and move it over, you still have to jump through iOS's janky file sharing stuff

00:14:26   to do it.

00:14:27   So what Microsoft did, they didn't even do file sharing, what Microsoft did was say,

00:14:30   "Look, you can make a chart in Excel and put it in Word," and they did copy and paste.

00:14:34   Which works, but again, it's like, why did you do copy and paste and not drag and drop?

00:14:39   The answer is, we don't have drag and drop in iOS.

00:14:41   It doesn't, it's like, we just have split screen now.

00:14:43   I feel like that's next time.

00:14:46   I think you're right.

00:14:47   I think this is, a lot of my feelings about the multitasking features in iOS 9 are, you

00:14:51   know, it's a first go and that presumably they will keep going with it.

00:14:54   I kind of wish they had started down this road two years ago.

00:14:57   But, you know, here we are.

00:14:59   The understanding is they've been trying to do this for a long time.

00:15:02   Because it seems like for the last couple of years this has kept coming up.

00:15:05   And you have to have more RAM in your products too.

00:15:07   So for them to do this sooner they would have had to put two gigs of RAM in the iPad Air

00:15:13   It would have to have made a much bigger jump than what they did in a much, much shorter

00:15:20   period of time.

00:15:21   So some of this is constrained by the technology and it's not Apple.

00:15:24   It's not just Apple kind of not paying attention to productivity and iOS, although I think

00:15:28   it is that too, but I think some of it is the devices just weren't powerful enough

00:15:33   to do this stuff before.

00:15:36   The device itself is interesting to me.

00:15:38   The stereo speakers, the accessory port.

00:15:41   All of this stuff is like, hey, it feels like a departure from what we know an iOS device

00:15:47   to be.

00:15:48   There is some stuff in the iPad Pro which is like, this is a definitely in between device

00:15:55   now because they're like, they're opening up in different ways.

00:15:57   They worked with Logitech in the background and Logitech have made a keyboard as well.

00:16:02   It's unclear to me whether that Apple keyboard is actually made by Logitech.

00:16:08   - Are they saying that they're using those new keycaps

00:16:10   so it feels like an Apple one?

00:16:11   - I don't know, or is it a collaboration?

00:16:13   I don't know.

00:16:14   Maybe, maybe not.

00:16:16   We may never know.

00:16:17   But the fact that Logitech is their day one

00:16:19   with their own bigger--

00:16:21   - It's like an actual plastic--

00:16:22   - Thicker. - Moving keyboard

00:16:24   rather than the semi-membrane keyboard that Apple made.

00:16:27   - Fabric, basically, is being used in that.

00:16:30   No, I think it's a good question

00:16:32   about whether this is an oddball product

00:16:35   that it's only on the iPad Pro,

00:16:36   or what seems to be, I think, more likely,

00:16:38   which is an iPad Air 3 next year--

00:16:43   - Will come towards that.

00:16:45   - Would have that accessory port and, you know, yeah,

00:16:49   it would seem a little bit more,

00:16:51   pick up some of these features of the top of the line iPad.

00:16:54   - I feel like what we're gonna see now is

00:16:57   in the way that the Air trickles down to the Mini,

00:17:00   the Pro will trickle down to the Air

00:17:02   and then it just goes that way.

00:17:04   So the Pro keeps moving forward,

00:17:05   and the Air picks up some of those features.

00:17:07   - So in nine years, the iPad Mini will get it.

00:17:10   - But I think one of the things that we'll see now

00:17:13   is that the iPads get revved every two years.

00:17:17   - I think that's right.

00:17:18   I mean, the Mini is now caught up with the Air 2,

00:17:21   but the Air 2 didn't get an update this year.

00:17:23   - So it will be next year.

00:17:24   - Right, and if you look at,

00:17:25   we've all talked about this, right,

00:17:26   the iPad upgrade cycle problem

00:17:29   where some people buy them every year,

00:17:31   but the vast majority of people go two, three, four years,

00:17:34   even how many iPad 2s are still running around.

00:17:37   And so if you're Apple, why invest

00:17:40   and put the R&D, put the engineering in

00:17:44   to upgrade every product every year,

00:17:46   why not go to a more Mac-like schedule

00:17:48   where something like an iMac or a MacBook Air

00:17:50   that they sell more of gets upgraded more frequently

00:17:53   than a Mac Mini or a Mac Pro?

00:17:54   It just makes sense to apply that sort of logic

00:17:56   to the iPad at this point.

00:17:57   - Right, there will always be new iPads every year,

00:18:01   but not all the iPads will be new.

00:18:04   Right. And I think that's fine. I mean, I think it's, if we're moving into a world

00:18:09   where the iPad is more of a general computing device, it's not something most people are

00:18:15   going to upgrade every year. Clearly that's already the case.

00:18:17   Yeah, definitely not.

00:18:18   And so why not adjust to that?

00:18:22   I want to talk about my dream of the iPad Pro. Lay down on the couch over there, Myke,

00:18:29   and I'll just think about it.

00:18:30   And I'll just think about it. Before, though, I want to talk about lynda.com.

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00:20:37   So I'm about a year in now to being full time and using all of my own devices to do

00:20:44   all of my own work.

00:20:46   Right there with you?

00:20:47   Yeah exactly.

00:20:48   So I now feel like I am at a point where I know how I use my devices and I'm thinking

00:20:54   about making some changes.

00:20:56   Like sometimes when I throw my Mac Pro out the window, so I'm thinking about when the

00:21:01   iMacs get revved, I may be getting myself one of the new ones, one of the retina guys,

00:21:06   because my kind of setup has changed to the point now where I think that makes a little

00:21:10   bit more sense for me.

00:21:13   So what I have been finding recently is I'm now moving more to using the desktop machine

00:21:19   at home.

00:21:20   So previously the Mac Pro was just a production machine, but I got a nice new monitor for

00:21:25   it.

00:21:26   really large monitor now which is why I think the iMac might be a great addition.

00:21:30   So now at home when I'm working I'm just using the Mac Pro. I'm using it for all recording,

00:21:36   I'm using it for most of my work now. So the MacBook that I have is basically only being

00:21:41   used when I'm not at home. So like when I'm here or when I work somewhere. So I'm thinking

00:21:47   about what could the iPad Pro bring to this setup. Could it be that I use an iMac and

00:21:54   the iMac and an iPad Pro and then the MacBook is something that lives in a cupboard that

00:22:00   only comes with me on trips if I need to edit a podcast or something like that. Or maybe

00:22:04   there's a world in which someone will actually make a really good audio editor for the iPad.

00:22:10   So from what I'm doing most of the time when I take these trips is editing a show. So if

00:22:14   that sort of stuff could exist I'm wondering like is this a potential product that could

00:22:19   be really good for me. I think, you know, I am a pen guy, I'm a pencil guy, I like to

00:22:24   take notes, handwritten notes. I'm really interested to see how the Apple Pencil, not

00:22:29   a good name, they should have called it the Apple Pen. I don't know why they thought Pencil

00:22:34   was better than pen. It doesn't make sense to me, it's too long, it's too many syllables

00:22:39   in my opinion. Apple Pen could have been fine, I don't know why it's an Apple Pencil. I mean

00:22:45   it's the shape of a pencil, but pencils and pens look, anyway.

00:22:47   #mikewiswrong.

00:22:48   Yeah, I don't I don't yeah, but that product is

00:22:51   Very interesting to me. I think Apple may have made some interesting decisions like there isn't a way to store it

00:22:58   In any way right like that that little case should have something you can just slide it into or a little magnet place that it

00:23:05   Yeah, magically clips on to or something

00:23:08   I don't know why it's just this thing that will float around and inevitably get lost

00:23:13   My other issue with the iPad Pro is the cost of the accessories and the fact that neither of them are included.

00:23:19   Yeah.

00:23:19   I think that that is a...

00:23:21   frustrating thing.

00:23:24   Welcome to being an Apple customer.

00:23:25   I know, but they're expensive as well.

00:23:27   They are, I mean if you, even if you do the base iPad Pro, you're spending, was it $99 with the pencil and

00:23:33   $169 for the keyboard?

00:23:35   I mean you've laid out another good chunk of change and to be fair the Microsoft Surface keyboard is a hundred and...

00:23:42   Yeah, it's similar. And third-party, I just reviewed a bunch of third-party iPad Air keyboards and they're all cost say 60 to 120 dollars.

00:23:51   I mean I agree. I mean I know that this is how it always is, but it's like because the iPad Pro is so expensive to begin with,

00:23:59   it would be nice to have a keyboard. Right.

00:24:02   It's like the cost of a laptop, but you don't have to buy the laptop keyboard extra. Exactly. Like you don't pay for a trackpad.

00:24:08   I would love a trackpad. Okay, give us an extra $50 and we'll put a trackpad on your MacBook.

00:24:12   Like that's not what happens and I feel like considering the amount that Apple seemed to be like these go together

00:24:19   We built a whole new port for it. Like come on just throw it in. Yeah, I do wonder

00:24:24   And I don't know if we'll ever see this data from Apple or from you know people

00:24:28   Who look at this sort of thing?

00:24:31   professionally

00:24:32   But I do wonder what the adoption rate is gonna be of the pencil and the keyboard or people gonna buy an iPad Pro because

00:24:38   is a bigger iPad, are they gonna buy it with the pencil?

00:24:41   My guess is that the pencil will be more successful

00:24:46   than the keyboard, not only because of price,

00:24:48   but sort of what you could do with it, you know?

00:24:50   - You can't do what you can do with the pencil

00:24:54   with anything else. - Right.

00:24:55   - But you can type on an iPad with the virtual keyboard.

00:24:58   - Or you can-- - Yes, and it's full-sized.

00:25:01   - Yeah, yeah, and it's got Bluetooth,

00:25:02   you can do Bluetooth keyboards if you don't like Apple

00:25:04   and you can do something else.

00:25:05   - Buy the Logitech one, you can do lots of options.

00:25:08   I mean I use the Apple aluminum keyboard with my iPad.

00:25:11   - Me too. - I have a little stand

00:25:12   and I pair it 'cause I'm really fast on that keyboard.

00:25:14   - Something else about the pencil,

00:25:16   Myke you were talking about,

00:25:17   like there's no place to store it and all that.

00:25:20   One of the other interesting things that I noticed

00:25:22   is that it doesn't have an eraser

00:25:24   because instead the top is the cap with the lightning

00:25:29   under it, which is also a weird choice.

00:25:30   It's a weird choice.

00:25:31   Man, my understanding is it doesn't--

00:25:32   - So I'm sure in the demo,

00:25:34   one of the people used the upper end.

00:25:36   - Are you sure?

00:25:37   I remember it.

00:25:38   - Because that's where the cap is for the...

00:25:40   - You could still make that.

00:25:41   - All right, maybe.

00:25:43   - 'Cause all it needs to do is just recognize

00:25:44   it's a different...

00:25:45   - It's a different shape.

00:25:47   - Yeah, because... - Well, maybe it does then.

00:25:48   I don't know that.

00:25:49   I know it's weird.

00:25:50   My point, larger point was it's interesting

00:25:53   that this is a device with a male lightning connector on it

00:25:57   because the good thing is it means you can just stick it

00:26:02   into the female lightning port on the iPad Pro and it charges.

00:26:08   And break it off.

00:26:09   This is my problem. I don't think that that is a...

00:26:11   I understand that the reason that they're doing that,

00:26:13   because you can plug it in and it's always there,

00:26:15   but how do you charge it long periods of time?

00:26:18   Put your iPad down and then the pencil just sticks out the side?

00:26:20   Yeah.

00:26:21   That's the mystery that I have is, you know,

00:26:25   is there a special charger for it or a special cable for it or something?

00:26:29   it or something or you just expected to just lay your iPad down and stick it in.

00:26:33   If they had a little stand that had a, you know, a female lightning port and you

00:26:38   just sit it down on top of it like when you're done with the workday and it's

00:26:41   waiting for you when you get back, but if you're gonna charge it overnight you

00:26:45   can't charge the iPad and the pencil at the same time unless Apple makes

00:26:48   something else. It just seems like an odd choice and it does seem to your point,

00:26:52   Myke, like I would be nervous about breaking that thing off.

00:26:57   So many people are going to end up with lightning connectors

00:27:01   stuck in-- like snapped off and stuck in.

00:27:04   Looking at the site, I don't think it does have an eraser.

00:27:06   I think you're right.

00:27:08   But this is kind of what I was looking for.

00:27:12   Weirdly, it's--

00:27:13   Yeah, I need the pen take here, pen users take.

00:27:16   Well, I mean, so--

00:27:17   I don't have that.

00:27:18   The key thing that Apple have done,

00:27:20   which is exactly what we know anybody that's used this stuff

00:27:23   and we know they needed to do, was

00:27:25   to do something about the touch screen, which is exactly what they've done.

00:27:29   So it didn't add pressure sensitivity, but they increased the refresh, which means that

00:27:35   it's very low latency, and then like all of these other iPad pen manufacturers, they put

00:27:41   all the pressure sensitivity in the pen.

00:27:43   In the pen itself.

00:27:44   Soul, pencil.

00:27:45   Because I think Wacom make one like this, where you put a receiver into the iPad currently,

00:27:53   it connects with Bluetooth, and it can do exactly what this does. But obviously Apple

00:27:57   can build it in and it's much more elegant.

00:28:02   So I'm going to take the plunge with the iPad Pro, and my plan is to go all in.

00:28:08   All they needed to do was put a pen on it.

00:28:11   You've got to put a pen on it, that's what they say in Portland. But I am still unconvinced

00:28:19   if I will keep it.

00:28:21   That's my, because I don't know if this is the product

00:28:24   that I want, but I feel like considering the way that I am

00:28:28   and like, you know, especially with the pencil

00:28:31   and the digital input like that,

00:28:33   I feel like I really want to understand

00:28:37   how this product could work for a non-artist.

00:28:41   This is so obvious for an artist,

00:28:43   but what is the use of this to the average consumer?

00:28:49   I'm, I'm, the iPad Pro is a really interesting product because it is heralding something

00:28:55   that I don't think currently exists, which is people doing a lot of work on the iPad.

00:29:02   There are outliers, we all know one of them.

00:29:04   Yes.

00:29:05   But it really isn't a device that's built for many people to do their work easily.

00:29:10   Federico has got it to the point where he can do his work easily, but it took an incredible

00:29:14   amount of work for him to get there.

00:29:17   And it's the difference between can you get work done on the iPad and will anybody

00:29:23   want to put in the effort to get work done on the iPad or can it be effortless?

00:29:27   >> Because his situation was he had no choice, everybody knows the story.

00:29:30   So he did it and knowing how I do and how he works, he couldn't do the type of stuff

00:29:36   that he does on a Mac now.

00:29:38   He couldn't do it in the same way and it would be more difficult for him because this

00:29:40   is the product that he uses.

00:29:42   So I wonder like I've started to use my iPad Air a lot more these days.

00:29:47   And I wonder how much work could I get done on a product like this?

00:29:51   Because I've looked at the surface for a long time and thought,

00:29:54   that is a form factor that is incredibly interesting to me.

00:29:58   This is a tablet, but you can connect some stuff to it.

00:30:02   And the great thing about what Microsoft does for their sins at times,

00:30:06   you can do everything on it.

00:30:07   Yeah.

00:30:09   I wrote a piece for my explaining Apple to Windows IT people column

00:30:15   that I do on the Windows SuperSite about this.

00:30:20   The knock on the surface, and I think it's accurate, is it is a compromised vision because

00:30:26   it is both.

00:30:27   It's better now than it was with Windows 8, Windows 10 that makes this better, but

00:30:32   it's a tablet when it's a tablet and it's a PC when it's not.

00:30:36   If you want to bring a keyboard and a mouse, you can make it into a PC.

00:30:43   neither, it's both. Apple went the other direction where it's like the Mac is the

00:30:48   Mac and the iPad is the iPad which is great. So you can say the Surface is kind of a compromised

00:30:52   you know, hybrid product. At the same time, if you need, if you want to take an iPad but

00:30:58   there's some things you have to do on a Mac, the compromise there is you have to

00:31:02   bring both. That's still a compromise. It's just a different kind of compromise. In the

00:31:07   long run I think Apple will be seen to have made the right decision to not retrofit Mac

00:31:12   OS for a tablet. But in the short run, what it does is make us notice that iOS is not

00:31:21   up to everything that probably it needs to be able to do yet. Because it's a young

00:31:27   operating system, but it's still not there yet. And not that it can't be coaxed and

00:31:31   not that people like Federico can prove that work can be done there, but it's all a little

00:31:37   too hard and Apple hasn't helped. Until this year, Apple hasn't tried to make it

00:31:41   any easier. They still did not show first-party software at this event. I was expecting a

00:31:47   pro app that they have not given us. Yeah, well it's interesting that they went to,

00:31:53   that you know the original iPad was launched with iWork. Yep. And here they brought Microsoft

00:32:00   and Adobe on stage. Which was great. I mean that. It's a victory lap at 8 days, right?

00:32:04   Which is look who's here, we don't need to even make our own software now for this platform

00:32:07   because look who's here.

00:32:08   >> Microsoft doing what they're doing with Office, it's like they're putting a nail in

00:32:12   their own coffin.

00:32:13   But this is new Microsoft, right?

00:32:16   Because the Surface is still struggling with Office.

00:32:22   My understanding is the Windows 10 Office still isn't out yet, I think.

00:32:25   I could be wrong with that.

00:32:26   >> It's supposed to be out by the end of the year.

00:32:29   >> But these new versions of Office on the iPad will be out in a couple of months.

00:32:34   >> Well, and Office on the iPad right now.

00:32:35   I wrote a huge chunk of my iOS 9 review on an iPad Air with an external keyboard, the

00:32:42   Apple Bluetooth keyboard, in Microsoft Word and it was really good.

00:32:46   It is amazing.

00:32:47   I mean, recently as well, Google Docs has gotten even better on the iOS.

00:32:55   They have added this shortcut bar above the keyboard, which is contextually aware.

00:33:01   It's fantastic.

00:33:03   But I still believe that Apple need to put their money where their mouth is and signal a change.

00:33:10   So there should have been--like they showed iMovie on this thing.

00:33:13   Right, but that's not it. That's not the Pro app.

00:33:17   It's a watered-down version of the consumer app.

00:33:20   The iPad Pro has no Apple Pro app, and I'm a little disappointed that they didn't do anything.

00:33:28   Because that was what I was expecting. I think other people were as well.

00:33:32   Because the iPad had a real kind of coming-of-age moment with iLife

00:33:37   You know GarageBand on the iPad was like people like I understand what this is all about now like this is amazing

00:33:44   It was like this big thing, but now we're in this scenario where I really really wish they would have

00:33:50   shown something

00:33:52   Which showed that why they believe this is a pro product themselves, but they didn't know well

00:33:59   Well I mean there may be time for something like that in November. Since this is not shipping,

00:34:04   that's the other funny thing about this event. It's not happening. This stuff is

00:34:08   way out there. November, way out there. So we may hear more about that. But yeah, I have

00:34:13   my doubts that we'll be seeing logic or final cut for iPad Pro. But wouldn't that

00:34:17   be something…

00:34:18   Great. I mean that would…

00:34:20   That's like a big kind of staked…

00:34:23   A lot of my functionality problems, like you were talking about pro level editing on audio

00:34:29   editing on an iPad.

00:34:31   And I have, I think it's OREA, which is actually, you can edit, you can do what we do.

00:34:37   The big problem is it's slow because it's all the touch interface.

00:34:43   And so with this keyboard, right, which is not guaranteed but it's often there, it

00:34:51   makes me wonder if that's one of the solutions is, you know, don't just make an editor

00:34:57   got a good touch interface, make an editor that also becomes incredibly fast when you

00:35:02   add a keyboard shortcuts.

00:35:04   And iOS 9 is so much better at keyboard shortcuts, so there's hope there.

00:35:11   It's all seriousness that the idea, the thought of being able to use an audio editing

00:35:16   program with a keyboard and the precision of the pencil to select areas, it would be

00:35:22   incredible and my hope is someone will make it.

00:35:25   Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if that was Apple, but it doesn't have to be Apple.

00:35:28   It doesn't have to be, but it would have been nice if they did it.

00:35:31   Well, I wonder too if, maybe this isn't Apple's hangout, but looking at third party

00:35:37   developers, I mean there is an ongoing concern about the race at the bottom and iPad software

00:35:43   in general doesn't sell very well compared to iPhone software, but I wonder as well if

00:35:47   you're going to make that podcast editing app and you're out there and you're thinking

00:35:53   about doing it and you want to rely on things like the pencil and the keyboard being present,

00:35:59   I don't believe that there's…

00:36:00   What's your audience on that?

00:36:01   Well, past that, I don't even think there's a way to target just the iPad Pro in the App

00:36:05   Store.

00:36:06   You still have to deal with how do I get this out there and how do I keep somebody with

00:36:10   an iPad Mini 2 from buying this thing because Apple has not given developers the tools in

00:36:15   the App Store at that layer to even say, to mark an app as this is a Pro app, you're

00:36:20   going to need this system requirements like you can on the Mac.

00:36:23   That may happen. That may have to happen.

00:36:25   I think it does need to happen, but it's...

00:36:28   I think there should be a class... What you said immediately made me think there should

00:36:34   be a class of apps that really require an iPad Pro and that cost a lot of money. You

00:36:41   say, "What's the market for that?" The answer is it doesn't need to be a big market. If

00:36:45   you can get an audience that everybody in that industry knows that this is what you

00:36:50   You buy an iPad Pro and a pencil and that keyboard and this software and you have a mobile whatever unit.

00:36:58   Audio editing, video editing, whatever.

00:37:00   That works on the Mac.

00:37:02   Not only Adobe and Microsoft, but companies like Panic who make good OS X software.

00:37:08   It's expensive compared to other stuff.

00:37:10   They compete with even free apps in places.

00:37:12   But if you need those tools, that's who you go to.

00:37:15   go to. All those things that we just rattled off, it's a whole list of problems right now

00:37:21   for iPad development. It's all throughout the stack. It's the store, it's the audience,

00:37:26   it's the tools they are given to build apps. It seems like the hardware is just so far

00:37:31   out in front, and the software and the policies, which I think is where Apple lags behind,

00:37:36   I think the policies are the slowest to change. This has got to catch up for this to be more

00:37:42   successful than it could be without it.

00:37:43   I agree.

00:37:44   All right, Jason, you mentioned November a moment ago.

00:37:47   Yeah, so I want to get your thoughts on that.

00:37:49   But before we do, let me just take a moment to thank our

00:37:52   second sponsor for this week's episode.

00:37:54   And that is our friends over at Fracture, you know Fracture,

00:37:57   they make beautiful prints of your favorite photos.

00:38:00   I have a couple of people sitting by my side who also own

00:38:03   Fractures and I've seen gifts and they're on the walls of

00:38:06   their homes.

00:38:07   Oh, yes.

00:38:07   And that is because Fracture will take your images and make

00:38:10   absolutely stunning prints out of them.

00:38:12   They take your photos, you upload them at fractureme.com.

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00:38:20   Fracture will take it and they will print your photo directly onto a piece of glass.

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00:38:39   and they package it all up and they will send it out to you.

00:38:41   and I have had these things sent to me from the other side of the world to England and

00:38:45   they come these lovely pieces of glass, all lovely packaged and not a mark or scratch

00:38:50   on any of them. They look fantastic. I mean, Jason, I know that you have a bunch of your

00:38:55   podcast artwork and stuff like that.

00:38:57   I do. John Saricuse is putting me to shame. He's got his robot or not tractor now and

00:39:00   I haven't ordered that one yet. But if you've got anything that you've got images that

00:39:04   are – they can be family images or perhaps this – I really like this marketing accomplishments

00:39:09   thing and for people like us, people like John and Marco, sometimes it's app icons

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00:39:20   of work that's been done and yeah, it's a little bit like giving yourself an award

00:39:24   but it's kind of nice to say, "I made these things and here they are, they're

00:39:28   on the wall." And that could be like things of your kids' birthdays or we take a picture

00:39:34   of our kids out in front of the sign at the school that they went to every year on the

00:39:37   first day of school and I thought about ordering those as fractures and creating a little march

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00:39:47   Because these fracture prints are fantastic but the process is really simple as well which

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00:40:15   so much to Fracture for supporting Relay FM.

00:40:18   So November.

00:40:19   Yeah haha November.

00:40:20   So we have...

00:40:21   I hope it rains, I hope it rains, I hope it rains.

00:40:23   Remember remember the rains of November.

00:40:25   I have no idea what's happening anymore. So usually there's been an event in October

00:40:30   overtime, where they would unveil the new Macs, maybe the iPads, some other little bits

00:40:36   and bobs. It seems like there will not be an event in October to talk about El Capitan

00:40:43   because it's coming out September 30th, which is the weirdest way to announce a product

00:40:48   ship date is in an email on a screen but it was funny. I liked it. Good moment. Good way

00:40:54   of doing it. But Apple always do the "let's go back over the features" again. But they

00:41:00   didn't do that this week. Do you think there's going to be something else? They could do another

00:41:07   event where they reassert the iPad Pro before November. They go back over the new Macs.

00:41:13   Maybe there's an update or something.

00:41:14   My guess is no, but I don't... If I was at Apple, I certainly would bring that up as

00:41:20   a "wait, do we want to do a restatement event?" But I feel like they've done their big...

00:41:25   There'd be nothing really.

00:41:26   Well, it would be like a Mac thing, and I don't think they want a Mac event with iPad

00:41:30   Pro is also a shipping kind of thing, restatement thing. They get a lot of stick actually in

00:41:34   the press from when they, like the Apple Watch event which was a replay in the spring, a

00:41:38   replay of last September's event, right? And people were like, "Oh, we already heard

00:41:43   all of this." We said, "Well, yeah, but now they want people to pay attention again

00:41:47   because they're shipping it." So yeah, I think we'll see Apple launch some products

00:41:51   using media, you know, using review embargoes and using publicity blitzes and interviews

00:41:58   with executives and all the stuff that they seem to be doing now as part of their marketing.

00:42:03   As opposed to bringing the world's media into a room.

00:42:06   Into town hall or something like that to do a quick kind of thing.

00:42:11   Because we expect new Macs, right?

00:42:13   It's rumored a 21 inch retina.

00:42:16   They're absolutely going to be new Mac announcements.

00:42:19   And yeah, the rumors are there'll be a smaller retina iMac.

00:42:23   And who knows, maybe some other stuff too.

00:42:26   But yeah, not tied to El Capitan probably, I guess.

00:42:30   I guess really, I mean, you know.

00:42:32   Unless it is.

00:42:33   El Capitan doesn't have a ton of stuff to show.

00:42:35   It's not really a great demo.

00:42:37   I mean, because they did a good job of showing off at WVDC, but I don't know if there's

00:42:42   a lot really to go over.

00:42:43   Whatever, your cursor gets bigger.

00:42:45   It's awesome.

00:42:46   That's true.

00:42:47   It does do that more than I wish it would.

00:42:49   But I mean, using El Capitan, I do like it a lot.

00:42:52   I like the split screen stuff is really useful for me.

00:42:55   I love the notes app.

00:42:56   So, you know, but I see, you know, it seems maybe they won't do it.

00:43:00   They're just going to push it all out, as you say, maybe get some reviews and stuff

00:43:04   like that.

00:43:05   Yeah.

00:43:06   It really does feel like this is the event now, that's it.

00:43:07   Yeah, I think so.

00:43:08   All right.

00:43:09   So pre-orders.

00:43:10   iPhone pre-orders went up a day or so ago.

00:43:13   Steven?

00:43:14   You got to experience it.

00:43:16   You both got to experience Pacific Time Apple ordering where it was actually midnight.

00:43:20   Yeah.

00:43:21   It's usually 2 a.m. for me.

00:43:22   It's usually 8 a.m. for Myke.

00:43:23   It's not too bad for you.

00:43:24   - It was great, I mean I remember when I would be on my way

00:43:27   to work and I would jump off the train at a platform

00:43:30   so I could pre-order my iPhone and then get back

00:43:32   on the train to go off to work so I didn't go underground.

00:43:35   Stephen, did you pre-order?

00:43:37   - I did, so I currently am part of the Myke was Right

00:43:41   generation and have an iPhone 6 Plus, I ordered--

00:43:44   - There's a lot of 6 Plus converts I'm seeing.

00:43:47   - Yeah, so I ordered-- - The hashtag is alive

00:43:49   on Twitter.

00:43:50   - So I ordered the 6S Plus 64 gig gray,

00:43:54   same as I have now. I'm excited about it. I'm excited about the 3D touch. Having spent

00:44:01   a little time with it, it's pretty nice. And excited about the camera especially. I think

00:44:06   that new 12 megapixel shooter is going to be pretty nice. So yeah, I do it almost every

00:44:11   year. What about you, Myke?

00:44:12   I did. I went 64 gigabyte plus. I got the white one. So...

00:44:16   I have many thoughts on this.

00:44:19   A little confession.

00:44:20   Okay. Real talk.

00:44:21   I do want the white one, but I ordered it by accident. I didn't mean to press it, but I did press it.

00:44:26   So what's your, what's the back color? Is it...

00:44:29   Oh, it's silver. Yeah, I didn't get like the rose gold or anything, luckily.

00:44:33   But I, because I wouldn't have wanted that. It's a nice color, but it's not for me.

00:44:37   I was intending to get the gray, but I got the silver instead. But I do like doing that.

00:44:43   I have done that in the past, and if I maybe wasn't, I was literally falling asleep

00:44:48   as I was ordering it, I was very tired.

00:44:52   But I've done this in the past and I quite like it.

00:44:54   If you have a different color device,

00:44:55   it feels like a new device,

00:44:57   because obviously there's not a massive amount,

00:44:59   they don't look any different, right?

00:45:01   So I have a white one,

00:45:02   and then it maybe will feel a little bit more new.

00:45:05   I have had white iPhones in the past, I think they're fine.

00:45:07   But I moved away from them a little while ago.

00:45:09   - I used to do what you did this time,

00:45:11   alternating the color, so it's a trick for your brain.

00:45:14   It's a reward for spending too much money.

00:45:16   But I really don't like the white glass around the screen as much as I used to, especially

00:45:22   when it's off, it just looks kind of weird.

00:45:24   So yeah, so that went great.

00:45:26   I'm going to see.

00:45:27   It's only going to be a year.

00:45:28   I actually did a – I was pleased I could do this – I did it in the app, a reserve

00:45:32   for pickup at the app store.

00:45:34   I hate waiting at home all day for a device, especially because in the UK so many people

00:45:43   buy iPhones on day one because a lot of people upgrade because we have this very

00:45:47   different system to you guys and the delivery companies just cannot cope.

00:45:52   Like there have been times I've ordered phones and they've come like four days

00:45:55   later even though they were on a van to ship on the release day so I'm gonna go

00:45:58   to a store like 9 a.m. in the morning and just pick up the phone while I'm there.

00:46:01   So I'm happy about that. Jason did you do did you order one? I didn't. Why do you

00:46:07   Why are you going to have that for a review?

00:46:11   I'm on the non S upgrade cycle for my personal phone.

00:46:17   But I also have to write about this stuff.

00:46:18   So what I'm hoping is that I will get a review model from Apple that I'll be able

00:46:22   to use in order to write about it.

00:46:24   And then at some point I will decide about how I want to manage it with my plan and my

00:46:31   family and if I want to buy, just buy an unlocked phone or whatever.

00:46:35   But I'm hoping to not have to do that on day one that I'll have access to a review

00:46:40   unit which lets me, unlike most people, but that lets me kind of delay my thoughts a little

00:46:46   bit.

00:46:47   So that's my current plan.

00:46:48   And the last time, two years ago, that's what I did.

00:46:53   Two years ago is I got the 5S and it was gold.

00:46:59   I think that was the, was that the first gold phone?

00:47:01   It was.

00:47:02   The white gold 5S?

00:47:03   Goldie.

00:47:04   we called it. I've thought about gold a couple of times but I just feel like I can't

00:47:09   just go there. I liked it. I think it looks nice. And I used that for a while and then,

00:47:15   because that was the Apple review unit and they don't ask for it back like two weeks

00:47:19   later they give you some time with it. So I used that for a little while but didn't

00:47:23   ever buy a 5S. I just waited and bought the 6 for myself. So we'll see how it goes this

00:47:29   time I don't know. I would have…

00:47:31   64 gig space grey 6 is S is what you would do if we get there.

00:47:37   Gotcha.

00:47:38   I would like to be able to do the upgrade program. It's not in the UK yet. They said

00:47:43   they will be rolling out so probably next year I will do that because I'm buying off

00:47:46   contract.

00:47:47   I think I've decided that I'm just going to buy unlocked phones from now on.

00:47:50   I'm so fed up of dealing with…

00:47:52   But not even… I don't even need the…

00:47:54   …cell companies.

00:47:55   I don't need the financing. Although the financing is pretty close in price. Somebody

00:48:00   did some math and selling your phone and buying a new phone every year unlocked is roughly

00:48:07   the same price.

00:48:08   For me, I would do it just because it's easy. Like you pay for it and you pay for it every

00:48:16   month and you just get a new one every year and then you don't need to go for the other

00:48:19   I've got to make sure I get 700 pounds together for this time.

00:48:22   Sure.

00:48:23   Just so the payment goes and it's just dealt with.

00:48:25   And in that year you can drop it twice and break it.

00:48:28   Exactly.

00:48:29   Because I do buy AppleCare.

00:48:30   You put it in reminders like, "Oh, you've got to break your phone."

00:48:32   Well, it does cost you $100 or something like that.

00:48:35   It does.

00:48:36   Yeah.

00:48:37   I went through it with the -- before I went to the Plus, my regular 6 fell down a flight

00:48:40   of concrete steps on a parking garage.

00:48:42   On its own.

00:48:43   Like it just jumped over.

00:48:44   No, I was using it while --

00:48:45   It was pushed.

00:48:46   -- navigating the stairs and it was a terrible idea.

00:48:48   But you know the payment thing, we're in a transition here in the US, right, where

00:48:53   the major carriers are ending the two-year thing and where you buy the phone outright

00:48:57   and you are doing this payment plan.

00:48:59   I'm going to look strongly at the Apple one next time.

00:49:02   I still have about a year and a half on my Verizon contract and I would love to be able

00:49:07   to be in a world where I can just pay the whatever it is a month and I have the freedom

00:49:11   to switch carry.

00:49:12   Right now I want to switch away from Verizon to AT&T for coverage reasons.

00:49:16   the ground has sort of shifted where I live as far as who has good coverage and I can't.

00:49:21   I mean I can't without paying a huge ETF and buying another phone unlocked. So I bought

00:49:25   this phone full price from Apple for Verizon and I think next time my family will move

00:49:32   to that upgrade thing. Because the reality is I'm going to buy a new phone every year

00:49:35   anyways and so why not do it in a way that's a little bit easier and where I still have

00:49:39   the flexibility.

00:49:40   Right. Embrace it.

00:49:41   Right.

00:49:42   up now. My two-year plan is up with EE, the company that I'm with. And at the moment,

00:49:49   about pretty much every day, every two days, they're calling me to try and get me to

00:49:54   call on a new plan.

00:49:54   Yeah, but Myke, we'd like you back. Please come back.

00:49:56   I have my phone on do not disturb constantly so all I ever see is these missed calls. And

00:50:00   then I just block the numbers, you know? I just don't want to do with it. And so soon,

00:50:05   I'm going to start shopping around again because really, I just want data plan. I just

00:50:10   on, "Give me a data plan." That's what I want, and I'm going to start looking around

00:50:13   again to try and find a better deal in the UK, because I pay way too much money for what

00:50:16   I use these days. But I'm kind of, I'm just at the point where I just don't want

00:50:23   to be locked into deals with these companies anymore.

00:50:25   Tim Weiss The Apple thing is such a, I mean, okay, I

00:50:28   think it's a brilliant move.

00:50:29   Rob Baillie It's brilliant because we've been talking

00:50:31   for a few weeks about what are they going to do, and everyone's been like, "It's

00:50:34   going to be the end of Apple's…"

00:50:36   Well, the perception that these phones are expensive, right? Which they are expensive,

00:50:43   but they aren't perceived as that when it's just hidden in your phone bill. And the fact

00:50:48   is that the carriers know that too, which is why they're not going from a subsidy

00:50:52   to a "you buy it out right." They're going from a subsidy to a two-year installment

00:50:56   plan. It's an accounting change more than anything else. But Apple, so then Apple can

00:51:04   do that too and now they are. And I find that fascinating because that's, you know, who's

00:51:09   your brand loyalty to if you're an iPhone user? It's to Apple and not to your carrier.

00:51:13   So Apple is basically taking over yet another part of the carrier relationship and making

00:51:17   an Apple relationship and now your phone is unlocked and you're a free agent and it makes

00:51:22   the carriers even more of a dumb pipe.

00:51:24   Steve

00:51:31   by Ben Evans, maybe we'll put that in the show notes, I linked to it on Six Colors,

00:51:36   where he said, this is actually probably why Apple squashed the MVNO rumors, is you're

00:51:43   already kind of digging into one part of your carrier partner's business. You might want

00:51:48   to say, "Not that other part. We're not doing that." No, no, no. Because I will

00:51:54   be fascinated to see how carriers respond to this because you know the carriers could

00:51:57   respond to this and in a way that is good for consumers. The carriers could say, "Oh,

00:52:03   well we're going to make an even sweeter deal for you to use us for your subsidy instead

00:52:08   of Apple and we'll give you a discount." And if that happens, then that's good too

00:52:15   because then you can choose between Apple's deal or a deal with a carrier that's even

00:52:19   sweeter. But right now the way it looks is that Apple's deal is as good as the carrier's

00:52:23   deal at which point why would you not give yourself the flexibility. That phone you get

00:52:28   from Apple is unlocked too so if you travel internationally you can pop a sim card in

00:52:32   it. You don't have any of this locking stuff that forces you into these expensive roaming

00:52:37   charges when you go international.

00:52:39   Steve: There are a lot of benefits to it.

00:52:41   Chris I did have a theory about the MVNO thing which

00:52:45   is this will Apple start its own network and my theory was maybe that's for non-phone

00:52:53   devices and I don't know enough about the phone industry to know and I want to ask somebody

00:52:57   about this at some point because that was my thought there is that maybe Apple would

00:53:03   want if they put cellular into a laptop or an iPad pro let's say or iPads in general

00:53:10   would they want to take that off the board like we're just going to provide the data

00:53:15   and we're not going to like what Amazon did with the Kindle I mean they were reselling

00:53:20   behind the scenes. I think it wasn't an MVNO technically, but they were doing it behind

00:53:25   the scenes. That strikes me as more plausible that Apple's got a sort of like weird plan

00:53:30   for making data available for its devices than replacing your carrier relationship entirely.

00:53:35   But who knows? This is, it's fascinating. This is, it's just, I wasn't expecting

00:53:41   it and yet it makes perfect sense.

00:53:44   It was exactly what they needed to do, but I don't think anybody expected it.

00:53:48   We did see that announcement that AT&T installment plans weren't going to be sold in Apple

00:53:53   stores anymore. That came out a few months ago and it's like, "Wow, what's that

00:53:57   going to mean?" And the answer is, it's going to mean nothing.

00:53:59   The reason it's not being done anymore is because they only want to do it themselves.

00:54:02   Yeah, which is as Apple as it gets. It's an unexpected and fascinating story and people

00:54:09   are doing the math about what's a good deal and I'm sure some of the carriers will respond

00:54:13   and that will be interesting too. So yeah, I think it's a good time. It sounds like

00:54:19   there has never been a better time to embrace the idea of buying a new phone every year

00:54:23   which, you know, so many of us are on the every two year thing and people have been

00:54:29   like, "Oh no, the every two year thing is going to be disrupted." But these new methods

00:54:33   make it a one year thing. I mean, it's actually better than it was before because you used

00:54:38   to have to take a huge hit in the alternate year and you don't have to do that with

00:54:43   these plans.

00:54:44   That's great.

00:54:45   Can we talk about Apple TV games for a little bit?

00:54:47   Yeah.

00:54:48   Because my complete interest in the Apple TV would only be for gaming, right?

00:54:57   So I just, as we spoke about before, the entertainment stuff is just not a big thing.

00:55:03   I think Apple did exactly what I expected, which was not the right stuff.

00:55:08   There's no good controller.

00:55:11   seems like that the input methods are very weird. I'm interested to see how some of the

00:55:16   games that are touted to be coming to the Apple TV are going to work. There's a lot

00:55:21   of stuff with like, oh you can play on the iPhone or on the iPad and you can come to

00:55:27   the TV and it will sync your plays. But I go back to the fact that the touch screen

00:55:32   devices in the Apple TV have a vastly different interaction method.

00:55:37   Yes.

00:55:38   can't see how many games would be able to make that seamlessly work with the controller

00:55:44   Apple's provided.

00:55:45   So I'm interested to see how this sort of stuff happens.

00:55:48   But there's a lot of talk about something in regards to the 200 megabyte limit for apps.

00:55:55   So apps have a limit of how much space they can have on the Apple TV for reasons nobody

00:55:59   can really understand.

00:56:01   And what Apple is saying, and there's been a couple of articles about this, Serenity

00:56:05   Caldwell wrote a great one about it on iMore saying about how, and like this is Apple's

00:56:12   line on this and it's the one that people are reporting on because it's what they're

00:56:16   saying about how people, developers will be able to and they're being pushed to by Apple

00:56:22   to download levels and elements and assets as the game progresses. So like on demand

00:56:29   or something like that. I understand that this is what is being said is the thing that

00:56:35   Apple are saying and why the 200 megabyte limit doesn't matter, right, is what people

00:56:41   are saying with this. But this doesn't make sense to me as a way to have a game work.

00:56:46   Because if you are on an okay internet connection, you are going to hit a scenario where you

00:56:52   are trying to progress to the next level and it won't be there.

00:56:56   Well I think what they, the way they want to do this is that, and Serenity's article

00:57:03   actually talks about how it would work. It's not supposed to work that when you get to

00:57:07   level five and it has a loaded level five and you sit there and you wait for it to load

00:57:11   level five. The idea is that it loads the first ten levels and when you get to level

00:57:15   six it dumps the first four and loads eleven through fifteen.

00:57:20   I understand how that works.

00:57:22   And so that you should have a huge buffer. The problem is if there's, what if there's

00:57:27   a shortcut to another level or what if you want to jump back to a level and play it again.

00:57:31   Those are times you will absolutely hit this.

00:57:32   This is one of the fundamental things that shows Apple's misunderstanding of video

00:57:35   games.

00:57:37   Not all video games are levels.

00:57:38   Well, that's true.

00:57:40   Like what about a game like Grand Theft Auto, an open world simulation game?

00:57:44   That one's a lot harder.

00:57:45   You're going to load in parts of the city?

00:57:48   It doesn't work.

00:57:49   Right.

00:57:50   Like these games, some of these games struggle on the consoles to try and load that data

00:57:53   from the disks.

00:57:54   So you see like the world building itself in the background.

00:57:59   And this is reading from IO.

00:58:01   It's part of the console.

00:58:03   - Yeah.

00:58:04   - Like this is just another step for me

00:58:05   where I see a fundamental misunderstanding

00:58:07   of how video games work.

00:58:09   - And I don't disagree with you,

00:58:10   but I also don't think the Apple TV is made

00:58:12   for console games.

00:58:13   - Giant open level. - Like great at the data.

00:58:14   I mean, I think they want,

00:58:16   I think this is sort of two sides of a coin

00:58:20   where the Apple TV control scheme and the hardware

00:58:23   is designed with casual, super casual games in mind.

00:58:28   - And this is another part of that.

00:58:30   I'm not saying that it's the right way to go.

00:58:33   I mean, I think if you're buying a console,

00:58:35   you're not looking at the Apple TV.

00:58:36   Like, it's a different category.

00:58:38   The question for me is, can this category even exist

00:58:41   and be a good-sized business?

00:58:43   Because so far, there really has never been

00:58:46   a sort of a casual console, you know,

00:58:48   or something that plugs into your TV

00:58:50   and you can play casual games on easily.

00:58:52   So I view it as sort of a new thing

00:58:54   and not Apple trying to chase a console.

00:58:57   I think that if that is how they are approaching this, that makes sense. But they do talk about

00:59:03   their processes being like console standard.

00:59:07   Yeah, and I think maybe that's just part of flexing.

00:59:10   Yeah, that's it.

00:59:11   Because a casual game doesn't have to look bad, right?

00:59:15   No.

00:59:16   A casual game can look and should look good. I mean, look at some of our favourites over

00:59:19   the years, like Monument Valley, which is like I could just put posters of Monument

00:59:23   Valley around my room and I'd be happy. So I agree with you it's a little mixed messaging

00:59:29   from Apple but I don't think they are gunning for the Xbox and the PlayStation with this

00:59:34   thing.

00:59:35   Tim Weiss (01.11.00)

00:59:36   No, in fact I, if, I mean the difference between Apple and Nintendo is Nintendo has all that

00:59:45   intellectual property but if you think about just the sort of like what was a cool thing

00:59:48   about the Wii, it was the accessible casual games. And that's something that maybe could

00:59:57   be tapped into. They showed something, they showed that game, that rhythm based game from

01:00:01   Harmonix that looked very much like a Wii game. Where you've got a controller, it's

01:00:06   got an accelerometer and a gyroscope, you're waving it around in order to play the game.

01:00:12   And that is a class of game. It's weird though because they had a demo of this racing

01:00:18   game. Asphalt? Yeah, it was the one where you're going along like a Tron kind of world.

01:00:25   Oh yeah. So it was not like a race track game. Gotcha. But the demo in the demo room was

01:00:33   track pad based or touch pad, whatever that thing is on the remote. So you like have to

01:00:37   touch on the left to turn left and touch on the right to turn right. And I thought, "Guys,

01:00:42   there's a gyroscope in there. You should just be tilting it to drive. Why did you do it

01:00:47   that way and maybe the answer is it's not out yet and they had two days.

01:00:51   Right, or two days. I mean a lot of iOS racing games have an option of like buttons or I

01:00:55   can turn my device. I mean there's no telling.

01:00:57   Yeah, but so it'll be interesting to see what they do with it but I like that they

01:01:02   have you know it comes with a remote that has some of that motion sensing stuff plus

01:01:07   the trackpad because I think it will be versatile enough UI for some casual gaming.

01:01:13   Sure.

01:01:14   But there will be a limit to it.

01:01:16   Yup, that's definitely and I think like harmonics making that game exclusively for

01:01:21   the Apple TV is a really weird thing. Like I can't imagine it's going to really be

01:01:27   a matter of how big it's going to be.

01:01:29   My feeling there is that this is the equivalent of first party games.

01:01:33   Is that Apple's not going to make their own games for this which we talked about the

01:01:38   poker iPad game and all of that right that has like Phil Schiller in it. This is the

01:01:46   alternative to that which is Apple's got money, Apple goes to partners and says make

01:01:50   us an exclusive for the Apple TV and that's instead of having first party games they have

01:01:54   some exclusive titles that they have funded essentially. I think that's what's happening.

01:02:00   Some of the big stuff that I'm trying to, I want to get the full details on this but

01:02:04   but like games like Disney infinity.

01:02:07   So what I've heard is,

01:02:08   'cause currently you plug this reader into a console

01:02:11   and you put the action figures down

01:02:13   and they appear in the game.

01:02:14   But I've heard that there's gonna be an update

01:02:16   to Disney infinity where there is a Bluetooth enabled reader.

01:02:20   And so stuff like that, that could be huge.

01:02:23   These types of games, these games for younger kids

01:02:28   with all of this stuff like Lego

01:02:29   is about to do one called dimensions.

01:02:31   If Apple can convince these companies

01:02:33   to put these games on here, like the new Guitar Hero.

01:02:36   I mean, I don't know what they're gonna do with Guitar Hero.

01:02:39   I can't imagine a guitar peripheral for the Apple TV.

01:02:42   So I'm not, they have, this is like Guitar Hero's come in.

01:02:45   I haven't seen yet, like what do you use the little remote

01:02:48   for Guitar Hero, 'cause that's not fun.

01:02:50   So if they can bring these sort of games in,

01:02:53   make some sort of versions with them,

01:02:55   it could be interesting.

01:02:57   But this again, it like mixes the message for me,

01:03:00   because these are traditional console games.

01:03:03   but they want them on the Apple TV.

01:03:04   But then they don't make controls on them.

01:03:06   - There is a class of casual game on iOS

01:03:08   that does work with this control scheme.

01:03:10   And they're actually--

01:03:12   - They show CrossFit Road and it's perfect.

01:03:13   - Yeah, and those are actually the ones

01:03:14   that have the worst control schemes on the touch screen

01:03:17   because they really want you to have a left, right, up, down.

01:03:19   Like Pac-Man 256.

01:03:22   - Does the button click?

01:03:24   - It does, it physically clicks.

01:03:26   - It's an actual physical click?

01:03:27   - I think it is.

01:03:27   - It's not one of these fake ones?

01:03:28   - No, I think it's a real one.

01:03:30   - Because I couldn't tell if it clicked.

01:03:32   the fact that it clicks is good because that is an interesting way to make it work. But

01:03:36   yeah, it's just this mixed message thing that I just find so confusing. But I can see

01:03:44   why they're doing it. They want to be in the gaming world, but I think Apple still has

01:03:48   a ways to go to maybe prove a little bit more legitimacy.

01:03:51   All right, should we take a break? Jason, would you like to talk about Stamps.com?

01:03:54   Yes, this episode of Upgrade brought to you by Stamps.com. You know, getting mailing and

01:04:00   shipping done can seem like a no-win situation, going to the post office, it takes up time.

01:04:05   You have to see people. I don't want to see people like, "You guys are okay because

01:04:10   you're right here and I've met you before." The people at the post office, I rarely run

01:04:14   into you at my local post office is what I'm saying. Also, if you're a business and you

01:04:20   mail a lot of stuff out, you could lease a postage meter. That will work. But those can

01:04:23   be very expensive. There are multi-year commitments and hidden fees with that. But there is a

01:04:28   a better way, Stamps.com, which lets you buy and print official US postage for any letter

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01:05:28   So whilst I'm here, a great company that we do some sponsorship with on the pen addict

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01:06:18   Thank you so much to Stamps.com for supporting this show, keeping me out of the post office

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01:06:25   So Jason, we were leaving dinner yesterday and you showed me an iMessage that you received

01:06:31   from your daughter. Could you explain to the listeners what's happened here?

01:06:35   JASON: It was a text that said, "What do I do?"

01:06:39   MATT: It's not a good way to start really.

01:06:43   JASON I can hear her saying it too because this is her default. I don't know what…

01:06:49   Even when she's very proud about being able to navigate the world, when she was younger

01:06:52   she said this a lot more than she does now that she's 13, almost 14. But she gets to

01:06:59   that moment and she goes, "What do I do?" And she texted me, "What do I do?" And

01:07:04   I thought, "Uh oh." And then an image came through and it was a screenshot of her

01:07:09   iPhone with the alert saying, "You don't have enough space to back up your iPhone."

01:07:15   And I told her, "Don't worry about it. I'll take care of it when I get home."

01:07:18   But I had just been talking about this because David Smith wrote a piece on his blog about

01:07:25   the bad user experience that comes with 16GB iPhones because they run out of space.

01:07:32   He actually has some scary stats about people who use his apps and how much space that they've

01:07:36   got available and it's not good.

01:07:39   The 16GB models, it's not good.

01:07:41   It's super tight.

01:07:42   And you get these alerts that you're running out of space and it makes people uncomfortable

01:07:46   and maybe it would be better if that phone didn't exist because it makes the users

01:07:49   not have a good experience. And my response was to say, you know the other thing that

01:07:54   makes users have a bad experience is the fact that there's the 5 gigabyte iCloud thing

01:07:58   and these days almost any iPhone will hit that limit and tell you what my daughter got,

01:08:07   the "I can't back up alert, danger, I can't back up your phone, action is required, take

01:08:12   action!" And you know, I complained about it and it was just funny. I was talking about

01:08:19   it and then it happened to my daughter and it's frustrating because I've got a 500

01:08:23   gig plan which soon, if I keep it the way it is, soon will be a terabyte plan.

01:08:27   Ben: I have no idea what mine is.

01:08:28   Chris: $9.99, the $9.99 a month. I got it because I wrote that book about photos so

01:08:32   I saved my entire photos library and I like having the whole photos library there. But

01:08:39   my family sharing plan members don't have access to it,

01:08:42   which is insane.

01:08:44   - If you have a terabyte as an individual,

01:08:47   you should be able to split that up amongst people.

01:08:50   That's a lot of space.

01:08:51   - That's a lot of space.

01:08:52   - I mean, we were talking about this earlier,

01:08:54   but family sharing is sort of half done.

01:08:57   Like it works in certain circumstances,

01:08:59   but with this seems like such an obvious addition to that,

01:09:03   where they just haven't gotten around,

01:09:04   like the guy in charge of it hasn't gotten around to it.

01:09:06   I don't know.

01:09:08   it's and you know I talk to people about it I understand you know storage cloud

01:09:13   storage isn't free but this five free is five free for an apple account so if you

01:09:20   have a phone and an iPad you immediately run into the five free unless you like

01:09:24   create a dummy iCloud account name which strikes me first off perhaps every

01:09:31   linked device to a particular Apple ID should get five gigs first off it should

01:09:37   probably be 10 gigs. And second, there should probably be an additional amount that you

01:09:42   get for every additional device you link to that ID. Because you're buying the hardware,

01:09:47   you're giving Apple cash for the hardware. So it's like, "Oh, you had an iPad, your

01:09:50   10 is now 15." Or whatever. I feel like they did everything, they did a good job,

01:09:58   not everything right, but they did a good job in lowering the iCloud fees in general.

01:10:01   I'm disappointed I'm on that 500 gig plan, it's gone now. If you want more than 200,

01:10:05   which I do because of all the photos I've got, you have to go up to the terabyte now.

01:10:09   So it doesn't actually save me any money right now.

01:10:11   >> There's no middle ground.

01:10:12   >> You can still get the 500.

01:10:13   >> Can you?

01:10:14   >> Yeah, for the time being at least.

01:10:16   I'm looking at it right now.

01:10:17   >> Well, yeah, but those are the old rates.

01:10:18   >> Yeah, that will go away.

01:10:19   >> It'll go--it'll be--

01:10:20   >> I think it's--my guess is it'll be on the 16th of the iOS update.

01:10:23   They usually kind of pair iCloud stuff with that.

01:10:25   >> Right.

01:10:26   So they'll get rid of the 500.

01:10:27   They'll keep the terabyte at the cost of what is now the 500.

01:10:30   The 200 gets cheaper.

01:10:32   That's great.

01:10:33   It just feels to me like I don't want to say that Apple shouldn't try to make money

01:10:40   on cloud services because I know they have a cost. However, below a certain point, what

01:10:45   you're talking about is how are your customers experiencing your products, the hardware that

01:10:50   they buy. That's not a cloud services. That shouldn't be the job or the decision of

01:10:56   the cloud services division of like, "Well, we got to make money." That's the people

01:11:00   make an iPhone. Like Jonathan Ive actually should care that people who buy a 16GB iPhone

01:11:06   are going to run out of space and that's a user experience problem. And they should

01:11:09   care that 5GB of backup is probably not suitable and that the goal here is not to create something

01:11:17   that is such a limited freebie that it's essentially useless in order to upsell people

01:11:24   on storage. Ultimately people need a lot of storage they should pay for it but I feel

01:11:28   like there's the line that you can draw where it's a reasonable amount and if you

01:11:34   want to use more you should pay. And then there's a line you can draw that it's

01:11:37   an unreasonable amount and it's really just kind of a sleazy way to get more money out

01:11:42   of somebody. And for Apple's products, they need to be on the right line there. They need

01:11:49   to not be perceived as constantly hitting you up for more money. And the 5 gig backup

01:11:56   they're not on the right side of the line.

01:12:00   - I've taken a look at mine, 'cause I have no idea,

01:12:02   and I am on some weird legacy plan

01:12:04   where I get 25 gigabytes for 7.99 a year.

01:12:07   - Oh my God.

01:12:09   - Maybe it was .Mac, 'cause I've stuck around

01:12:12   with the same account since then.

01:12:13   - You've made a horrible mistake.

01:12:15   - So I have a 25 gigabyte, 7.99 a year.

01:12:18   - So you're gonna be able to go up to 99 cents a year,

01:12:22   or 99 cents a month.

01:12:23   Oh, you're in--

01:12:24   - I have not--

01:12:24   - You're 7.99 a year?

01:12:26   year. So I basically it says here if you change this you're losing what you've got. But I

01:12:33   never have this problem. I never have an issue where I'm out of space. Because I don't put

01:12:39   all my photos in there yet. I don't plan on doing it. I use my iCloud storage purely for

01:12:45   my backups even though currently nothing is backing up which is horrifying and that will

01:12:50   be fixed within the next couple of days. But it's funny, I assume this is probably .Mac,

01:12:57   that I'm on here, but I've just looked at it now because I always hear people talk,

01:13:00   I'm like, "I don't think I pay every month for storage," and that's why because

01:13:04   I pay a minuscule 8 pounds a year for my 25 gigabytes.

01:13:08   That is amazing.

01:13:09   I'm going to try and keep this for as long as possible.

01:13:11   You're in some weird grandfather scheme that they don't even know how it works.

01:13:15   That's like the great grandfather plan now.

01:13:17   literally says once you upgrade you will not have the option to return to your legacy plan.

01:13:23   Look at me, look at that.

01:13:25   Look at that. The backup, I mean, and I think that's what I'm really talking about here.

01:13:28   Bad user experience is Apple has created a system level backup. It's good. People should

01:13:33   probably backup their stuff and you can't like install a backup program on your iPhone.

01:13:37   So it's a base part of the system. People who are not doing unreasonable things should

01:13:43   be able to just know that their phones are getting backed up without worrying about it.

01:13:47   by having the level where it is, you know, what ends up happening is people get frustrated

01:13:53   because the UI for it is terrible. It's there. You can specify what to delete from

01:13:57   the backup and what not to backup, but it's not very good. And so people like my daughter,

01:14:03   I think, will just say, unless they've got me to say what do I do, they just are like

01:14:09   whatever. And then the phone is not backed up anymore.

01:14:11   I remember Adina had this issue and she was like I'll stop backing up my photos. I was like but

01:14:15   No, no, because it was the old because she was running out of space

01:14:19   It was the only thing she could do because it kept telling her every day

01:14:22   It's like you've got to do something you got to do something. Yeah, which is you know

01:14:25   My feeling with this is Apple doesn't have to offer backup. They don't have to do it

01:14:31   But because they do yes, they need to go all in. Yes. I agree

01:14:35   If you're gonna give anything free, it's got to be enough to help the person out

01:14:39   You don't have to do it at all.

01:14:40   Right.

01:14:41   For a reasonable person to back up their devices that they bought without, again, at a reasonable

01:14:46   level and then if you're somebody who's backing up crazy stuff, sure, but you've got to draw

01:14:50   that line in the right place.

01:14:52   They drew the line at five gigs free like what, three years ago, four years ago?

01:14:57   And the line has moved.

01:14:58   They need to move.

01:15:00   They need to raise that number.

01:15:01   I don't know if, I mean people talk about it and I don't know if they need to do the

01:15:04   thing where they offer you the same amount of storage for the device that you have.

01:15:07   that's an ideal. I don't know if that's necessarily the best business move for monetary reasons,

01:15:13   but it needs to be more than 5GB is what I'm saying.

01:15:15   Well, and the way the backups work, if you have a 64GB phone and you have 30GB of music,

01:15:19   Apple's not backing up that music.

01:15:20   Exactly.

01:15:20   I mean, they're backing up some core stuff, they're backing up your settings, they're backing up...

01:15:23   Really, it shouldn't be an amount, right?

01:15:26   Oh yeah.

01:15:26   You should just say, "Your device is backed up. If you want to add photos on, you pay for it."

01:15:31   Yeah.

01:15:32   But the data except like some media, it shouldn't be like you have 16 gigabytes, you have 7

01:15:38   gigabytes, it's just taken care of.

01:15:39   You could argue that if you're going to spend $100 for more storage on your phone,

01:15:45   that that's one of the things you're spending for is some more, you know, your backup of

01:15:49   that device too.

01:15:50   So it's like why is it $100 more to get a 128 over a 64 and the answer is well, it's

01:15:56   not just the memory chips, it's also more cloud storage that we're giving you.

01:15:59   But they're not doing that now.

01:16:00   It's gross and I agree with your assessment.

01:16:03   It's the wrong side of the line.

01:16:04   If you tie it into family sharing,

01:16:06   that would help because some people are on the family

01:16:08   sharing stuff.

01:16:09   And that would be a way to do it.

01:16:11   Because that's the other problem is

01:16:12   if a husband and a wife have different Apple IDs

01:16:14   and they both need some storage, right now they

01:16:17   have to do two monthly plans with Apple,

01:16:19   which is also stupid.

01:16:20   And there should be one plan that covers the whole family.

01:16:22   Agreed.

01:16:23   Oh well.

01:16:24   Let's do some Ask Upgrade.

01:16:25   Jason, can you tell our lovely listeners about Foundual?

01:16:28   I can.

01:16:28   And so as we record this in fact, it is day one. There are football games, American football

01:16:34   games Myke, because we're in America.

01:16:35   Myke: American football?

01:16:36   JE.S.T. American football is being played right now. This is the first week of the football

01:16:41   season. As you hear this, it will all be over except for a couple of Monday night games.

01:16:47   So anyway, how did your fantasy team do? Did you do well? Did you not do well? I don't

01:16:52   because my fantasy team is still playing. But it's a fun pastime that a lot of people

01:16:59   do where they get sometimes it's more engaged in the sport as they're watching it because

01:17:05   they are more interested in games that they wouldn't otherwise be interested in because

01:17:08   they have players on those teams that they care about. It's a lot of fun. I've been

01:17:12   playing fantasy sports for a very long time. The difference with something like FanDuel

01:17:16   is that they play one week fantasy football. So for example, now that week one has passed,

01:17:19   You'd say, "Darn it, I never got into a fantasy league this year.

01:17:23   I guess it's too late for me."

01:17:24   And you don't have to do that with FanDuel because every week it's a new week, a clean

01:17:29   slate.

01:17:30   You play again.

01:17:31   You don't get behind and you're like, "My team is terrible this year.

01:17:32   I'm done."

01:17:33   And you don't say, "I didn't pay attention to the football schedule until week three,

01:17:37   so I'm done."

01:17:38   You can jump in at any point.

01:17:41   There are more winners and payouts than any other site on FanDuel.

01:17:44   They're going to have more than $75 million a week during the football season.

01:17:48   completely insane. Building a team is pretty easy. You get a salary cap and the players,

01:17:53   based on how big of a star they are, have a value. And so you can pick some stars and

01:17:57   some nobodies. You can pick a bunch of people that are kind of in the middle that you think

01:18:01   are going to do well. It's an interesting exercise in trying to balance out and make

01:18:06   the perfect roster. And then you sit back and watch for the week and see what happens.

01:18:11   And you pay an entry fee to get into a league and that's the money that comes back to

01:18:14   the winners. They start at $1. It is a game of skill. You are using your knowledge and

01:18:20   maybe your guts about football players in order to try and find what the ideal assemblage

01:18:26   of a football roster is. It can be a lot of fun. Last year, a FanDuel player named Joe

01:18:32   Watson from New York turned his $50 deposit into more than $30,000 in two weeks playing

01:18:37   fantasy football. He is a really good fantasy player, much better than me. Anyway, go to

01:18:42   fanduel.com. Click the microphone in the upper right hand corner, use the code "upgrade"

01:18:48   and sign up now. New users also get access to a special offer. For every dollar you deposit,

01:18:54   Fanduel will match it up to $200. It gets earned as you play. So use code "upgrade".

01:19:00   Fanduel.com, F-A-N-D-U-E-L.com and then use the code "upgrade". Every day is a new season

01:19:06   at Fanduel. I would say play ball here but that's baseball so that's a mixed metaphor.

01:19:11   I have been seeing a ton of FanDuel ads on American TV whilst I've been here.

01:19:16   It's a really big deal.

01:19:17   It's a huge thing.

01:19:19   Well, fantasy football is huge.

01:19:21   And then somebody discovered at some point that, first off, fantasy used to be you'd

01:19:26   like get the paper on Monday and you'd write down the statistics.

01:19:30   I did this.

01:19:31   My first fantasy league was when I was in high school.

01:19:32   And you'd write down the statistics and you'd put like you know who people's players

01:19:37   were.

01:19:38   and maybe you had a spreadsheet on your computer, but maybe you just did it by hand, but you

01:19:42   got it out of the newspaper. And then over time, the computers got better and then all

01:19:47   the stats were on the internet and suddenly you could have websites that would calculate

01:19:51   that data. And so that was the next step and they used the old style kind of year-long

01:19:55   leagues. The new innovation is this week-by-week thing where you can drop in and drop out.

01:20:01   It's true because it so often happens that people are like really, maybe they're into

01:20:05   baseball and then the World Series ends and they go "oh yeah I never did fantasy football"

01:20:10   and with these kind of games you jump, you can jump in, you focus once and then you're

01:20:14   playing the game and you're not making a commitment to 18 weeks and you're not making

01:20:19   a, you know, it's a clever idea so this is the new thing.

01:20:23   Anywho, Oscar grade. So Rajeev asked "Will the next version of the iPad have 3D touch?"

01:20:30   I was surprised that they didn't put it in.

01:20:34   I mean I think that it's one of those things like a touch ID where it's going to start

01:20:39   with the phone and then migrate around.

01:20:42   I do expect it to be everywhere.

01:20:44   It seems to be really useful.

01:20:49   The iPhone is the flagship product.

01:20:51   It's the product that makes Apple the most money, they sell the most of them.

01:20:56   I think it will come but I think it's fine that it's not there now.

01:20:59   So I've played a bit a little bit because there's some people here that have the devices.

01:21:03   fine. You don't have to press as hard as you do on the watch.

01:21:06   Oh no, I think they did a really great job. I think it feels much nicer.

01:21:10   The software, the sensors, whatever they're doing, they perfectly are measuring your intent.

01:21:15   I never felt like, "Oh no, I didn't mean to do that." It's like it knows when I

01:21:18   want to peak and pop. I have my own theory about these. I don't

01:21:25   think it should be called peak and pop. You guys are talking about it because it always

01:21:28   pops I think it should be called pop and snap but Dan Provost the studio needs

01:21:33   have a pop and lock he came up he said what about pop unlock because I think

01:21:37   you know I think that's more fun but I like that I like that interaction I'm

01:21:40   interested to see how it will work because I wonder what the actual real

01:21:45   utility will be in that some of that stuff like the idea of peeking at the

01:21:49   message like you might as well just tap the message and open the message but

01:21:52   looking at like you know when we send URLs to each other just looking like the

01:21:56   image without leaving the messages app, that seems really useful.

01:22:00   So they did it with a great bit.ly URL.

01:22:02   Perfect.

01:22:03   Someone sends you a bit.ly URL, what is this?

01:22:05   You click it, you see what someone is sending you, great.

01:22:08   And then you can either be like, I'll go get it later or you can push through and then

01:22:12   you get, then you're there.

01:22:15   It's like, okay, I'll buy into that.

01:22:16   I think it's a really good metaphor.

01:22:20   And then out on the home screen, I think they did a very good job.

01:22:24   I think you can get really used to the pushing on an app and then keeping your finger on

01:22:28   the screen and sliding down to the action you want and letting go and having it quick

01:22:32   link you in.

01:22:33   I think that's really nice.

01:22:34   It's like a really weird URL scheme thing.

01:22:37   That's what it is.

01:22:38   It's like Launch Center Pro.

01:22:40   So I think imagine an app workflow where you can just trigger an action by holding on the

01:22:45   icon.

01:22:46   This is, if you remember a few weeks ago, I was talking about Action Launcher.

01:22:49   It's basically exactly that.

01:22:51   the idea of you being able to trigger certain actions just by touching the icons. I think

01:22:56   it's pretty cool.

01:22:57   So I do think all the iPads are going to get this feature. I wonder, I do wonder technically

01:23:02   if it's more difficult, I'm sure it's more difficult, I wonder how much more difficult

01:23:06   it is to sense pressure across a large screen, a large sheet of glass.

01:23:12   Yeah, I mean it seems to be, looking at their videos and how they explain it, that it's

01:23:16   a layer under the screen and you know, there's a ton of, surely.

01:23:19   Yeah, it's like in the background.

01:23:20   think they would do it on the iPhone if they didn't think they could have it on the iPad

01:23:22   next year.

01:23:23   Right.

01:23:24   But it might…

01:23:25   Yes, because right now, I mean, this is a new metaphor and you want it to be everywhere

01:23:29   and it just makes sense that it would be on the iPad eventually.

01:23:32   So I would assume so.

01:23:34   In fact, I would say this feels far more cohesive as a metaphor.

01:23:39   I know there's two models.

01:23:40   There's the kind of right-click model in the home screen and then there's this peak

01:23:45   can pop everywhere else but that peak and pop metaphor is good. It's consistent and

01:23:55   that's not something that I've seen with the force touch on the Mac.

01:24:01   Or on the watch.

01:24:04   Or on the watch. Well at least the watch when you force touch it usually it brings up a

01:24:08   layer with a menu. It's almost like a right click. But on the Mac it's this three finger

01:24:13   look up something kind of thing. So I look at this and think next OS X version or Mac

01:24:20   OS perhaps. I wonder, nope, I wonder if, it feels like it needs a unifying metaphor for

01:24:32   what a force touch does and this has it.

01:24:34   Well I mean it's easy to unify the name.

01:24:37   Well yeah, maybe OS 11 will have 3D touch and it will be peak and pop and it will all

01:24:42   much more sense. Well my thought on that too is that on the watch Force Touch is

01:24:47   just one thing right it is it is measuring sensitivity but there's only

01:24:51   one action behind it where on the on the phone there are now two and so it's

01:24:56   almost like 3d touch is a step further than Force Touch it's yeah so I agree

01:25:00   the naming is messy and I like that they have two names and neither of them are good.

01:25:04   Yeah yeah they're both terrible names yeah but I do think that 3d touch is

01:25:09   sort of a step further down that road and I would I can see a world in which

01:25:13   the future version of the watch has another layer of depth to it yeah yeah

01:25:19   yeah sure we'll see we'll see where you can use force touch on it on a certain

01:25:23   element right well the watch recognizes elements well doesn't recognize it with

01:25:28   the full stuff well the the technology that they're using to sense touch on the

01:25:31   watch is very different very different but what I'm saying is you you touch you

01:25:36   you touch a little hard for something and you touch harder for something else. Like

01:25:40   on the phone it very much feels like it's a depth thing. Like this MacBook Pro that's

01:25:44   sitting right here has the four-touch trackpad. It's that trick of I'm pushing into it

01:25:48   but I'm not really pushing into it. And the phone seems more precise in that and

01:25:53   the watch does. The watch I'm kind of like just slamming, you know, the bloodied end

01:25:56   of my hand into my wrist but the phone feels a little more precise.

01:25:59   I'm still worried about all of our nerve endings but we'll address that in a few

01:26:03   years time.

01:26:04   I think if you haven't tried it

01:26:06   It takes less pressure than the watch it is it is not more comfortable all the worries that we had about like oh

01:26:13   You know you're gonna be pressing really hard on this thing

01:26:15   It doesn't feel you know you don't press hard

01:26:17   But you just press enough that it registers it knows that you're trying to do you do you know if that because obviously I have to

01:26:24   Tap to catch it in there. Yes that replace the vibrate motor is there a vibrant matter

01:26:28   I have read that it does

01:26:29   but I don't know. All I can tell you is that the vibration motor feels pretty

01:26:34   much the same to me so I imagine that it is the vibration motor too but it's

01:26:39   Or the haptic motor is just making a vibration. Well that's it is that it's

01:26:44   the old crummy vibrator is not there. The implication at the event was that this

01:26:49   is just a better vibration engine because it can do smaller increments.

01:26:54   Yeah because they were talking about how many revolutions it needs but I think you

01:26:57   get up to one vibration.

01:26:59   - But I think it can still do the full on

01:27:01   (imitates

01:27:25   And I don't know, I assume that is a side effect of the anodization process.

01:27:30   I don't know if they're also like spraying on something to make it, yes, some stick 'em.

01:27:37   That rhino line where people spray on trucks.

01:27:39   And I'm unclear about whether it means they, whether it'll wear off or whether it's

01:27:48   going to stay but it is, it feels much more tacky and less slippery than the 6. So I think

01:27:57   there was at least an attempt made to make it less slippery.

01:28:01   So Dave would like to know how the rose gold iPhone actually looks because in some of the

01:28:07   photos it looks copper colored. I mean my feeling, I've seen them, I've seen one

01:28:11   of the watches as well, it's pink.

01:28:14   Alright please, yes, thank you for answering that question because although I…

01:28:18   Although I can see many colors, light pink casts on things I can't detect. My girlfriend

01:28:25   in college had a pair of pink socks that I said, "Why don't you throw those socks

01:28:28   away? They're so gray and faded." And she said, "No, they're pink." So yeah,

01:28:35   when I saw the rose gold iPhone and the Apple Watch version that's rose gold too, it looked

01:28:41   gold to me. I can't see it at all. So thank you for providing some expert commentary on

01:28:45   it.

01:28:45   It's pink.

01:28:45   It's pink.

01:28:46   They, they, I think.

01:28:48   - You could give it, you could give me one

01:28:49   and I would never know.

01:28:50   I was thinking I've got this old iPhone.

01:28:51   - I think the idea here was they wanted

01:28:52   to make a pink iPhone but not call it a pink iPhone.

01:28:55   - Yeah.

01:28:55   - All right, I think they wanted to give it a fancier name.

01:28:57   - Well, Christina Warren has been referring to it

01:28:59   as rose gold.

01:29:00   - Yeah, which is a brilliant way of putting it

01:29:02   because that's the color.

01:29:03   It's like that, sorry, like the red-y pinkish color

01:29:07   of rose is what this looks like.

01:29:09   'Cause rose gold looks very different to that.

01:29:12   Like if you wanna see what rose gold looks like,

01:29:13   go look at the edition.

01:29:14   That's rose gold.

01:29:15   Okay, so Josh would like to know...

01:29:18   If you want to see what Space Gray looks like, go to space.

01:29:20   Exactly.

01:29:21   It's not gray, I can tell you.

01:29:23   Josh would like to know, "With 3D touch, is the gesture for deleting apps still the same?

01:29:27   Seems like there would be some gesture collision."

01:29:29   I can say yes, that definitely happens, because when Adina tried to do it, she couldn't get it to work,

01:29:35   and the icon started jiggling, and we couldn't see it in the sun, so she's pressing it,

01:29:38   nothing's happening because she was holding for too long.

01:29:40   long. This is the exact issue that we were talking about weeks ago that I think will

01:29:45   happen to people. The phone will now do another thing which is unexpected by some.

01:29:50   My guess is that over time long press will go away. I don't know what they replace

01:29:57   that with to remove the app. Maybe every app in the right-click menu gets a remove or maybe

01:30:01   there's some other element to do it. But I agree. If you think that you are 3D touching,

01:30:09   It's a terrible verb. And you're not actually pushing hard enough, you are just actually

01:30:13   long pressing because your thumb is just resting on the screen. And so I agree that right now

01:30:18   it's a little messy and maybe they can do more software over time to detect the difference

01:30:22   better. But I also think too that once you get used to it, you won't make that mistake.

01:30:27   No, I agree completely with that. That once you get used to what a force or 3D press,

01:30:33   I've been saying push. I kind of like when you push an icon instead of tap. No, just

01:30:37   push. Push mic over. Yeah, do that. When you push on a mic on, you get that menu. When

01:30:44   you just lay your finger on it, you tap it and hold, you're not exerting pressure into

01:30:50   it, you're just tapping on it and then it starts to dance. But I think in the long run,

01:30:53   yeah, it's just that thing. I think you get used to it, but I always just go back to the

01:30:57   people that don't pay attention to it, who just don't care because it's not what they

01:31:01   follow. Or you do it while you're walking down the street, not paying full attention

01:31:04   even and then you nuke overcast instead of trying to play a new episode of upgrade.

01:31:10   I think you'd almost want to put it ultimately in the force press 3D push whatever menu as

01:31:20   an option or yeah and then it brings up a thing that says are you sure you want to delete

01:31:25   this?

01:31:26   Right, that gets my vote.

01:31:27   And a final question today from Rajeev, do you think that Apple will eventually make

01:31:31   Siri operable without an internet connection? I feel like they definitely should.

01:31:37   So much of Siri is, I mean, I think Apple is redefining Siri as being internet-based

01:31:41   data sources, though. I mean, you can do text-to-speech without an internet connection.

01:31:45   It can still give information that it knows about you, like its intelligent assistant.

01:31:50   Yeah, I agree. For things like, what's my next calendar item, and if you're in airplane

01:31:54   mode, it still knows what your next calendar item is, right? So your phone should be able

01:31:58   to tell you that.

01:32:00   The problem is, and I think what this question gets to, is that the voice recognition takes

01:32:04   place on the cloud.

01:32:05   So on the Mac it doesn't have to.

01:32:08   Well, the Mac doesn't have Siri.

01:32:09   That's dictation.

01:32:10   On the Mac it downloads the dictation dictionary and it matches it.

01:32:14   But if you...

01:32:15   The phone should be able to pause some of it.

01:32:17   Speech to text is not Siri though.

01:32:19   Speech to text is speech to text.

01:32:20   And you can do that offline.

01:32:22   Right.

01:32:23   But the question about, is Siri going to be operable without the internet connection,

01:32:25   they would have to offload some sort of Siri logic

01:32:30   to the devices.

01:32:31   - Yes, that's harder.

01:32:33   - That's harder and my guess is it's a pretty big data set

01:32:35   and they're always evolving it right.

01:32:37   I mean Siri is sort of a growing learning system

01:32:41   where they tweak it over time.

01:32:42   It's a robot or maybe it's not, but it is learning.

01:32:46   And so I don't know, I agree with you

01:32:49   that for stuff on device, even if it's a limited set

01:32:52   of commands, it would be nice,

01:32:54   but I think that there's a lot of weirdness in there

01:32:56   that I just want to avoid of, well, this works one time,

01:32:59   it's not working another time, or something like that.

01:33:02   - We'll see.

01:33:02   It's something I would like to see them

01:33:04   do a little bit more with.

01:33:05   I still think Siri is underpowered.

01:33:08   - I think Apple is redefining Siri

01:33:10   as being an internet-based, it's basically a search engine.

01:33:15   And under that definition,

01:33:17   my answer to Rajiv's question would be no.

01:33:19   Although I would like them to be able to do the Siri

01:33:23   take it home version of Siri where it's offline, it can do some basic stuff like back in the

01:33:28   day when you used to be able to tell your voice control.

01:33:31   Steve McLaughlin Tell me a joke. Knock, knock.

01:33:33   John Dickerson No, but it would be like play music by whatever

01:33:37   and it would do it, right? So something rudimentary like that where it was going to say, "Look,

01:33:41   I can't tell you that unless I'm on the internet," but some basic set of features like your calendar

01:33:46   or…

01:33:47   Steve McLaughlin Or even fall back to that. That system was

01:33:48   very short lived. It was only the 3GS and the 4. I mean even fall back to something

01:33:52   like that where I can dial a phone number by voice.

01:33:56   I think, or play music.

01:33:57   I'm going to throw an ask upgrade at you guys.

01:34:01   Live ask upgrade!

01:34:02   Never.

01:34:03   So, why has Siri not made it to the Mac?

01:34:10   Good radio right here.

01:34:11   The sound of crickets.

01:34:12   I don't think that there's a reason that makes any logical sense.

01:34:15   I'm going to give you a better answer.

01:34:18   Than mic.

01:34:20   - Um, it is there because the assistant stuff

01:34:25   that they're adding, I feel like Siri is coming to the Mac

01:34:32   in a different direction.

01:34:33   Like there are all those data sources

01:34:35   that they're adding to Spotlight.

01:34:37   - Right.

01:34:38   - Those are the Siri data sources.

01:34:39   The only thing that's not coming to the Mac

01:34:41   is the text-driven interaction with the Spotlight window.

01:34:46   Maybe they'll add that at some point,

01:34:49   but I feel like they could call it Siri even if they don't add that because at some point

01:34:52   Siri is the search. It's spotlight, spotlight may just go away and it may be Siri in a Mac

01:34:58   OS 11.

01:34:59   >> I agree with that if they bring the voice commands to it because I think so many people

01:35:04   think of Siri as the thing I interact with with my voice.

01:35:06   >> I agree. And it's already got speech and text, right? And it's already got the text.

01:35:09   All the parts are there and I'm a little surprised it hasn't happened but if you look at the

01:35:13   new data sources that they're adding in El Capitan, it's a lot of the same stuff that

01:35:18   that they put into Siri.

01:35:19   So it's basically the same.

01:35:20   - Right, and with Applebot being web-based,

01:35:22   I mean they can pull from that information,

01:35:24   they can search within the app store,

01:35:26   they can do all these things.

01:35:27   - Yeah.

01:35:28   - Really from any platform.

01:35:29   I mean some of that's agnostic.

01:35:30   So I agree with you that it's,

01:35:31   they're getting there and they're doing it

01:35:34   in a very sort of behind the scenes way

01:35:36   where Spotlight keeps getting better and better,

01:35:38   more powerful, more flexible.

01:35:40   But I do think for them to call it Siri

01:35:42   with big air quotes that you can't see,

01:35:44   podcast listener. - You still need to have

01:35:45   a little voice that you can talk to.

01:35:46   got out it's got it's got to have the sassiness.

01:35:50   yeah the yeah I the other thing that we think is out there for siri in the

01:35:55   future is across device integration where if I've got an apple TV and iPad

01:36:00   and iPhone and a Mac all on my home network not to mention perhaps some home

01:36:05   you know smart home stuff I would like to be able to do things from one device

01:36:10   to another right and I know that that's you know their security issues and

01:36:13   things but if it's all in my network and it's with my Apple ID you know I would

01:36:17   really be able to like to use my Apple TV remote or my phone to tell my Mac to

01:36:22   play some music on iTunes. Right or I'm in the kitchen all I have is my phone I

01:36:26   can tell my Apple TV start you know start playing this movie or start

01:36:30   playing this album. Right. You know HomeKit sort of lays the foundation for

01:36:34   that in a way again we talk I think you and I just spoke about it last week

01:36:38   Jason that HomeKit is sort of like undead. It's still it's still there.

01:36:42   It's still there.

01:36:43   They just didn't talk about it, but it's still there.

01:36:45   It seemed, at least publicly, sort of not the push right now.

01:36:49   Which is funny because now you've got a Siri remote that you can talk to, so you can tell

01:36:53   it to turn on the lights, and I think it will work.

01:36:55   I think the new Apple TV is definitely a push in that direction.

01:36:58   They just didn't put it on stage.

01:37:00   Right.

01:37:01   So, yeah, I agree with you.

01:37:02   I think it would be really great to have Siri take on some Jarvis-like control.

01:37:06   control, where it's, "Hey, I know about all these things," right? Like you said, my iCloud

01:37:12   account ties them all together. I want them to do more with that in the future. I think

01:37:17   they'll get there, but we'll see.

01:37:19   Of course, I think that wraps it up for this week. Stephen, thank you so much for joining

01:37:23   us.

01:37:24   Thank you for having me.

01:37:25   It's a pleasure. Always a pleasure. Jason, always lovely to record in person. That's

01:37:28   right. This is our third. Is it our third?

01:37:30   I think.

01:37:31   I like it when we do this. But thank you so much for listening, and also thanks to our

01:37:34   sponsors again for this week. Linda.com, Fracture, Stamps.com and FanDuel. They help support

01:37:41   the show if you help support them. That's really nice for us. If you want to find Jason

01:37:45   online then you can go over to SixColors.com and he is @JasonL. On Twitter, Steven is @ismh

01:37:51   and he writes over at 512pixels.net and I am @imyke. We have some show notes this week

01:37:58   week, which you can find over at relay.fm/upgrade/54. But until then, we'll be back next time.

01:38:05   Bye bye.

01:38:06   Thus ends year one of Upgrade.

01:38:10   Woooo!

01:38:11   Hooray! We did it!

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