50: Bing Bong

0:00:00[Music]

0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode number 50.

0:00:12Today's show is brought to you by igloo, an internet you'll actually like.

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0:00:26Type more with less effort.

0:00:28It is the Relay FM anniversary this week, and my name is Myke Hurley, and I am joined

0:00:33by Mr. Jason Snell.

0:00:35Hello, Jason.

0:00:36It's a special week.

0:00:37We've got upgrade number 50 on Relay anniversary week, and we didn't even plan it that way.

0:00:43That's just how it worked out, which is cool.

0:00:45And we also have Clockwise 100 later in the week.

0:00:47We do, which we did plan a little bit.

0:00:50We skipped a week in the summer, and people are like, "Why did you skip a week?"

0:00:52The answer is because we wanted number 100 to land on the birthday week.

0:00:57That's why. Simple. There's some Relay News that we should talk about that's related

0:01:03to your interests and mine and presumably many of the listeners. You want to talk about

0:01:08that?

0:01:09We have a bunch of exciting stuff happening throughout the week, but maybe the most exciting

0:01:12is today we announced two new shows for Relay FM. We have Top Four, and Top Four is hosted

0:01:19by Marco and Tiffany Arment, and every episode, it's not necessarily going to be weekly,

0:01:24on a very loose schedule, kind of whenever they would like to do an episode they are

0:01:28going to do an episode.

0:01:30And top four will basically be the two of them ranking and putting in order and talking

0:01:35about their favourite four of a certain topic.

0:01:38The first episode is their four favourite video games.

0:01:42I have heard a later episode about another pop culture thing that I won't spoil right

0:01:46now.

0:01:47And I think the show is absolutely fantastic.

0:01:49I'm so happy that they wanted it to be a part of Relay because it's a lot of fun to hear

0:01:54people do this kind of stuff and to rank and talk about their favorites because you find

0:01:57maybe some stuff that you didn't know about as well as as I have been wanting to shout

0:02:03at my podcast player to tell them my favorite things are to the point where I have actually

0:02:07now just given those the two of them my lists. The best my favorite thing about the show

0:02:14though, is Marco and Tiff are married and you get to hear the banter, which is fantastic,

0:02:20between a really great married couple. And the entertainment that you can get from that

0:02:25is just fantastic because they have a really great kind of shared sense of humor and it

0:02:29comes across and it's very, very charming. So that's top four. But we also have another

0:02:35new show that we launched today and launched being a perfect pun. And Jason, would you

0:02:39like to explain Liftoff to all those people?

0:02:41>> CHAD - Sure.

0:02:42Liftoff is what some people had referred to as space and cider as an inside joke.

0:02:47>> MATT - I'm pouring one out for space and cider.

0:02:49>> CHAD - It turns out that b-side that Stephen Hackett and I did where we talked about space

0:02:56the week that the Pluto flyby happened, that was sort of our stealth, not sort of, you

0:03:03know, to gauge whether we wanted to do that regularly, to talk about space stuff.

0:03:08And the reaction to it was far better than I ever expected, I have to say.

0:03:13I expected it to be kind of like lukewarm, or people being like, "Look, we don't want

0:03:17to listen to you guys talk about space."

0:03:19And instead, there was this whole, like, all these space fans came out of the woodwork,

0:03:22and they're like, "Yeah, more space!

0:03:24Talk about more space!"

0:03:25In fact, we even heard from somebody who basically is a rocket scientist who said, "Your blurb

0:03:30says, 'You don't have to be a rocket scientist,' but apparently, you can be.

0:03:34You just don't have to be."

0:03:36So yeah, so we decided to do it.

0:03:38So it's called "Lift Off," and we're going to do it fortnightly, which is a word that

0:03:42you British people like, and I love too, because it literally just means every 14 nights, just

0:03:49smash that together.

0:03:50It's fortnightly.

0:03:51Every other week.

0:03:52So that's the plan right now.

0:03:54And it's me and Steven Hackett, because it turns out that we discovered that we're both

0:03:58space nuts since we were kids and have both been to like NASA social events where we've

0:04:03watched things shoot into, well, attempt to shoot into space. Mine got there, Steven's

0:04:09didn't, but it did rocket off the launch pad. And so yeah, and we think there's always

0:04:14interesting stuff happening in space. So we're going to try to do it every other week. And

0:04:18we are also planning on having some special guests who we, I'm not going to name because

0:04:22we haven't approached any of them yet, but we have been compiling a list. So we're

0:04:25going to be cranking into gear about topics and setting it all up and programming it a

0:04:31little bit more now that we're rolling now that we're off the launchpad but I'm excited

0:04:35about it and the art for that by Frank by ForgottenTowel is spectacular. If you haven't

0:04:41checked it out it's a space mission patch and it's beautiful and I hope we can find

0:04:46a way to actually make patches based on the artwork because it is a beautiful thing.

0:04:52There is a very strong possibility that that will occur. I know a guy who knows a guy who

0:04:56can do patches. The best thing to do to see the artwork is

0:05:00to go to the blog post which is in our show notes at really.fm/upgrades/50 and if you

0:05:05click on the artwork there you'll get a full res version and you'll be able to see the

0:05:09design which is incredible that I can't, my brain can't fully comprehend because it just

0:05:16looks real and I don't completely understand how ForgottenTale was able to manage this

0:05:23and...

0:05:24Ah yeah, it's amazing.

0:05:27a master of textures, I think, because the texture, the spacesuit texture is just, it's

0:05:34incredible. So I'm legitimately more excited about the icon than I am about the podcast,

0:05:40and I'm really excited about the podcast. So I love that people are loving the icon

0:05:45too. So yeah, big week, big week.

0:05:48Indeed. But we do have some follow-up as well as there being follow-out.

0:05:52Yeah, so I wanted to start with a little related to podcast stuff, just a nice note, I thought,

0:05:58from our friend TropicalCIO. He is, I believe it's a he, a CIO in the tropics, and says,

0:06:06"Have you ever talked about how you have seemingly competing podcast networks yet get along so

0:06:11well? It's a cool example for others." So, which I'll just say, thank you. Podcasting

0:06:15Podcasting is a small community. I feel like there is more we can accomplish together than

0:06:23like separately. I think we do the world of podcasting a disservice by trying to, like,

0:06:30I don't know what, attack other podcast networks and say terrible things about them. And, you

0:06:35know, I think we all have different, all the podcast networks have different things, different

0:06:40approaches, different reasons for being, and you know, so that's my take on it.

0:06:47As somebody who has a podcast network and then has shows on a different podcast network,

0:06:51you know, I think we all work well together, and that's a good thing.

0:06:56Anything more about that from you, Myke?

0:06:57I don't see the incomparable as a competitor.

0:07:00Like it's just not a thing that comes into my mind.

0:07:02I love the incomparable shows, you know, like it doesn't really, there's nothing in my brain

0:07:07where it's like, "Ah, Jason!" Like, because I feel that we have a very, like...

0:07:13Well, the topics are different. I have more than one time had somebody approach me and

0:07:17say, "What about this podcast or The Incomparable?" and I've said, "Have you talked to Myke and

0:07:21Steven?" So that's also happened where I thought, "I think this sounds more like this than like

0:07:27that." But I think even, like I was on Twit yesterday, right? And when I talked to Leo

0:07:30Laporte about tech podcasting, he doesn't go, "Oh, well, we're not going to mention

0:07:33Relay." He's like, "Oh, Relay? I didn't-- I mentioned that Christina and I both have--

0:07:37because I was on with Christina Warren on Twit yesterday and I mentioned we were both

0:07:42on Relay and he's like, "Oh, Relay FM, that's relay.fm and you can go there and

0:07:45Christina, what's your show called?" and all that, right? So again, I feel like, you

0:07:49know, all of us are, we're not at the point where we're trying, I think we're all trying

0:07:54to be professional and elevate the medium and/or the format for those people who got

0:07:59mad when I called podcasting, a medium, the format, the little sphere we're inside. You

0:08:05know, I, I, is it, it's a competition in a way it is because we're competing for your time and, um,

0:08:10but I, you know, that's, that's sort of as, as much as I, uh, as much as I think about that.

0:08:15I, like, I mean, you know, again, I consider at least the incomparable and relay like cousins.

0:08:23Sure.

0:08:24That's how I look at that.

0:08:25Sure.

0:08:26What's next in the follow-up?

0:08:27Next follow-up is listener Florian who, um, mentioned that we talk about third-party

0:08:33watch faces on the Apple Watch, I think we mentioned that last week, and he just chimed

0:08:37in to say, "It's not just about Apple's control, the watch faces of many brands, and in fact

0:08:43clock faces," right, because Apple found this out with the Swiss train station clock that

0:08:49they had that was actually in violation of a trademark. These are generally protected

0:08:54so that if Apple allowed third-party developers to do watch faces, they would have to do probably

0:08:59a fairly careful analysis of trademark law and potential violations or it could get very

0:09:07messy and I think it's a good point. I think Apple could just push that out to the developers

0:09:12but they're going to get in a situation very easily where they're going to be given takedown

0:09:15notices and things like that. But I thought that was a good point that watch faces is

0:09:20a super tricky area and certainly my favorite watch face for the Pebble when I had it was

0:09:25something that for the most most of the time I had it was an unlicensed

0:09:29trademark infringement so I can see that as an issue but I think it's also that

0:09:34that watch face is super important and Apple wants to control it and right now

0:09:39I think Apple's still getting a handle on what it wants the watch to be and it

0:09:42wants the faces to do and it's a lot easier to just keep it all in-house when

0:09:47you're still figuring it all out which I think is still even with watch OS 2 it's

0:09:51still happening. When I first read this piece of follow-up it didn't make sense

0:09:54to me it was like well you know they have the same problem for people using

0:09:57like the Nike logo in an app right but then the more I thought about it the

0:10:02more I realized that it was probably easier to detect by looking at it a

0:10:07copyright infringing logo of a major company but I don't know if many people

0:10:13could look at a watch face and be like that's a Rolex one you know like the

0:10:17actual placement of all of the parts on the watch face right because I assume

0:10:21that that's what's protected, right? Not just the brand name because then it wouldn't make

0:10:25any difference, but the actual design of the watch face. So that would be a lot harder

0:10:30to tell apart from stuff that is protected and stuff that isn't, I think.

0:10:34And they could say, you know, you agree that you are not in violation, etc., etc., but,

0:10:40you know, it's problematic. And I agree, it's more problematic because if I look at what

0:10:49was in the Pebble Face Store when I was using it, they were all violations. They were all

0:10:55either characters or logos or things that were styled to look like other watches and

0:11:02things like that. So if I was Apple, I would, I think Apple's doing the right thing and

0:11:07opening up the complications first on their faces. I would like to see Apple continue

0:11:13to release new faces and work on that because I've reviewed a bunch of them on Six Colors

0:11:17And you know, I think there could be more faces.

0:11:21I'll put it that way.

0:11:22I think Apple could make their faces more flexible or have there be more faces.

0:11:27I'd like to see that continue.

0:11:30We got a bunch of feedback, by the way.

0:11:31I mentioned in passing about the book that was written about sort of Apple while Jobs

0:11:36was gone.

0:11:37And I didn't mention its name because I had forgotten its name.

0:11:40That happens.

0:11:41And it's Infinite Loop, and we'll put a link to it in the show notes, but that's the book.

0:11:46you have to buy a used copy basically, or at least I did. I bought a copy that had been

0:11:52sold by a library somewhere, donated to some company that then strips them and resells

0:11:58them. Now I've got a copy that I haven't read yet. But that just for people who wanted that

0:12:04was the one that keeps getting recommended as when John Syracuse and I were talking about

0:12:09like the untold story of the any added complexity of that period where Jobs was gone, that that's

0:12:14a pretty good example of a book on the subject.

0:12:18Cool.

0:12:19The next thing that we have is from Jason Becker in response to the kind of, I'm trying

0:12:28to think of the word, but like the elusive bing bong from Apple Maps that you had last

0:12:34week.

0:12:35Not to be confused with another bing bong who we'll be getting to later in the show.

0:12:40Yeah, Jason Becker says that he got the Bing Bong sound

0:12:43in navigation on even in iOS 8.4 or 8.0.4 or whatever it is,

0:12:48when on a phone call over Bluetooth.

0:12:51I think the sound has been in there.

0:12:53I just never heard it or rarely heard it.

0:12:54And then it was just coming out of my phone speaker

0:12:56while we were navigating, while we were driving.

0:12:58And I still haven't replicated that.

0:13:00Although I haven't tried very much

0:13:02'cause I haven't been navigating now that I'm home.

0:13:04So the Bing Bong remains elusive, but I liked it.

0:13:06I would love a mode that doesn't talk to me

0:13:08just makes the little noise as I'm driving just as a little cue. Although my Apple watch

0:13:12does that too, but if there are other people in the car, it's useful. We enjoyed it. We

0:13:16started shouting it out when the Bing Bong stopped being played by the phone. We all

0:13:20just would shout it out in the car. We did it. We made our own sounds. This is what I'm

0:13:27saying. Steven Hamilton wrote in about Apple Pay in Australia and sent us a link to a story

0:13:31that basically he says fraud is very rare. We've had chip, pin and NFC for years. Apple

0:13:36Apple Pay is struggling because Apple wants to take a certain percentage of the transactions

0:13:40and that's what they take in the US.

0:13:43Apparently the transaction skimming charge is less already in Australia, so they don't

0:13:48– so this would make – if Apple took what they take in the US or I believe the UK, they

0:13:54would be taking a larger share than in Australia of that little bit.

0:13:59So they're trying to get them to take a smaller cut and we know how that goes with Apple.

0:14:04So it sounds like this is still going back and forth in Australia.

0:14:07Although my understanding is if you go to Australia with an Apple Pay device set up

0:14:11in the US or the UK, it'll work at all those NFC terminals.

0:14:15But this is about setting up Australian banks, Australian transactions with Apple Pay.

0:14:21And they're slow because of the...

0:14:25Apple has less...

0:14:26How do we put this?

0:14:28There are fewer reasons that Apple can use for leverage with their negotiations with

0:14:32Australian bags apparently, which is interesting. So thank you Stephen. And it

0:14:35seems like it's stalemate with the four big banks, like there's been a lot of

0:14:39news in the last 24 hours about this, basically that the four big banks aren't

0:14:43moving. So whether Apple Pay ever comes to Australia, who knows. So John wrote in,

0:14:50upgrading John, and said he was thinking about comparing Jack Dorsey's return to

0:14:57Twitter like Steve Jobs to Apple and about killing the APIs and things like

0:15:01that and all of this but he says but then what happened? He said then Steve

0:15:06Jobs killed the licensing program of Mac OS because the cloners were making

0:15:09better and cheaper computers to Apple so I read this as a careful what you wish

0:15:12for about having Jack come back to Twitter because remember when Steve

0:15:17Jobs came back he didn't come in and say hey let's open this up he said let's

0:15:20close this down to which all our reply is yes Steve Jobs did do that but then

0:15:26what happened next is Apple released the iMac so Apple shut down the other

0:15:30hardware and then it got to work creating really great Mac hardware of its own and has

0:15:35been on an uptick ever since. And that was sort of our point with Twitter, is Twitter

0:15:39shut down most of this stuff, or at least put it on a kind of like "there's no point

0:15:43in you investing in this, don't worry about this software, don't make new software, just

0:15:47forget it" and then did essentially nothing. And that's the difference, in my mind, is

0:15:53like, where is the iMac of Twitter software? Even the OK stuff that they're doing is not

0:16:00that, like, full justification for getting all of the innovative developers out of the

0:16:05platform. I also heard from some people kind of offline saying, so I'm not going to name

0:16:10names, but I heard through the grapevine from a few different sources that Twitter is having

0:16:15a bare of a time hiring developers, especially for its desktop applications. And I think

0:16:18one of the reasons is all the qualified developers who really know the Twitter API in and out

0:16:24are the ones they screwed when they made their API decision. So those people have a negative

0:16:30feeling toward Twitter. And then also I get the impression that there's a bad

0:16:34reputation that a lot of people go into Twitter engineering for

0:16:39the app development and then they leave and are frustrated

0:16:42as they head out the door. So it's a difficult situation so I hope

0:16:47they turn it around. I hope that there's a some serious change there. But I would

0:16:50love to see the iMac of Twitter clients. I would love to see that. Also a bunch of

0:16:55people mentioned that I didn't mention TweetDeck and I should throw that in

0:16:59there. I didn't mention TweetDeck because my mother told me if you can't say something

0:17:02nice about something you shouldn't say anything at all. TweetDeck works for a lot of people,

0:17:05it totally doesn't work for me. It's a weird web view inside a Mac window. It's a column-based

0:17:11thing where the window size never snaps to the columns so you get these weird half columns

0:17:16that you're side scrolling through which is really awful. And it's a dashboard. It's great

0:17:21if you're a social media manager and you want eight panes up and full screen and it's like

0:17:24show me what's happening on Twitter right now. And I never considered Twitter something

0:17:29as much as I'm on Twitter. I've never considered Twitter a front and center thing. Twitter

0:17:33is a little box on the side of my window that I bring up look at and then dismiss and tweet

0:17:39deck feels to me like it's not designed to that at all tweet deck is your command central

0:17:44for Twitter. And that's great. I think if I were a social media manager, I'd use it,

0:17:48but I'm not and it totally doesn't work. Not only as an app do I not like the way it's

0:17:53built but its premise doesn't work for me. So I didn't mention it, that's what I would

0:18:00have said.

0:18:02This week's episode is brought to you by lynda.com, the online learning platform of over 3000

0:18:09on demand video courses to help you strengthen your business, technology and creative skills.

0:18:14For a free 10 day trial visit lynda.com/upgrade. That's lynda.com/upgrade. lynda.com is for

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0:18:42as fundamental as trying to learn how to do your income tax. Linda.com has courses on

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0:20:35start your free trial today. Whether you're looking to become an industry expert, you're

0:20:39passionate about a hobby, or you just want to learn something new, go ahead and visit

0:20:44lynda.com/upgrade. Thank you so much to Linda for their support of this show and Relay FM.

0:20:53So next up today, we have a little topic that you were referring to in our notes as the

0:20:58odd couple.

0:20:59Huh, yeah, so before we started, we started talking about this subject and I decided halfway

0:21:05through we should save it for the show. So here it is. The, this is not super, people like this

0:21:12stuff. I'm not sure I'm super excited about it, but I know people like it, so I thought I would

0:21:15talk about it. There were some tweets going around today with pictures of Steve Jobs's desk, which I

0:21:20thought were funny because the people, tweeted by people who you might expect are people who

0:21:27Apple products appeal to. And a lot of those people are people with a design

0:21:30bent and they're very, they want everything just so. I would imagine

0:21:34somebody like CGP Grey would be in there like, I'm sure there's nothing on his desk.

0:21:38He may not even have a desk. I don't even know how that would work, but it's possible.

0:21:43And Steve Jobs' desk was a mess. It had a computer on it. They made multiple photos from a few

0:21:48different years. There's, there's crap all over the desk. There behind him is a bookshelf with

0:21:52with all this junk in it and there's stuff on the floor

0:21:55and there's cables everywhere and it's a mess.

0:21:59People are like very disappointed in Steve Jobs,

0:22:01which is kind of harsh because the guy's not around anymore

0:22:03to defend himself but I laughed at it

0:22:05because I remembered when John Syracuse came into my office

0:22:08at Macworld one time and his response was very like,

0:22:12ah, you got all this junk around here everywhere.

0:22:14How do you live like this?

0:22:15Like an animal.

0:22:16He did not actually call me an animal

0:22:18but I know he was thinking it.

0:22:22And yeah, my office was messy.

0:22:24My office would tend to just build up junk.

0:22:26And then I would finally have a moment like,

0:22:29God, I can't take it anymore.

0:22:30And usually on a Friday afternoon,

0:22:31I would put everything into the recycling

0:22:32and into the garbage and I'd bundle everything up

0:22:34and I'd put stuff in the computer recycle

0:22:36and I would be back to square one, but often quite messy.

0:22:39It's absolutely true.

0:22:40'Cause I get focused on what I'm doing

0:22:43and the other stuff is like, I'll deal with it later.

0:22:45And then things just pile up.

0:22:47But what I wanted to say is I think all the people out there

0:22:50who are freaking out about Steve Jobs' desk

0:22:51would be proud of me, at least for what is on my desk right now. So I have a Thunderbolt

0:23:00hub that I got when I had my MacBook Air as my primary computer before I bought the iMac.

0:23:06And so the idea was I plug in the MacBook Air, one cable plus power, and it drives my

0:23:11external monitor that I had and my, you know, gigabit Ethernet and audio out and just everything

0:23:16else is connected, USB, it's all connected from the Thunderbolt hub, all I have to do

0:23:20is plug the Thunderbolt hub into the MacBook Air. Work great. Then I get the iMac and I

0:23:24think well I don't need the Thunderbolt hub anymore because all those ports are on the

0:23:27back of my iMac. But I got the iMac that's on the arm. You've seen it. You've been in

0:23:31here. You've seen it. I have. I've been riding in there. Um, the, uh, so, you can plug everything

0:23:40into the iMac on the arm, but what you get is this iMac that's floating in space and

0:23:44then like ten cables coming off of it. And you can channel them and all, but it's a big

0:23:48bundle of cables. And I thought to myself, "Well, you know what I should do is just attach

0:23:55the Thunderbolt hub, because then all the cables are off the desk or at the back of

0:23:59the desk where the Thunderbolt hub lives, and all I have are a couple of cables, the

0:24:04power and the Thunderbolt cable, coming out of the iMac and running to the back of the

0:24:08desk." So I did that, but the Thunderbolt cable I had wasn't long enough for me to move

0:24:14the Thunderbolt hub somewhere where I couldn't see it, so it sort of sat on top of my speed

0:24:18speaker on the back of my desk next to the foam orange brain actually which is still

0:24:23right there. So in the last couple of weeks I've made some advances I bought a long thunderbolt

0:24:30cable it's a white thunderbolt cable for bonus nerd design nerd cleanliness. Oh nice work.

0:24:37I should explain I'm gonna say it here the Felix Unger people because this is a reference

0:24:42that you didn't get. The Odd Couple play a movie, a TV show. Neil Simon wrote the original.

0:24:50It's about two guys who have to live together and one of them is a slob and one of them

0:24:54is a neat freak. And in this scenario, John Siracusa is Felix Unger and I am Oscar Madison.

0:25:00This is what I'm saying. So I got a white Thunderbolt cable to match the white power

0:25:05cable that comes out of the back of the iMac. They run off the back and it's a long cable,

0:25:10So I bought some Velcro and attached my Thunderbolt hub to the metal bar that's sort of most of

0:25:17the way down on my adjustable desk.

0:25:20And that's where the Thunderbolt hub lives.

0:25:22So from most angles, you can't see any of the cables that are running into it.

0:25:28And the desktop is completely clear.

0:25:30And from the desk, you just don't see it.

0:25:31The two little cables run over the edge and are never heard from again.

0:25:35And then below there, there are cables that run into the power and the ethernet and all

0:25:38of that.

0:25:40And I had velcro left over, so I took my little USB audio interface that I use to attach my

0:25:44microphone that I talk through every day, and it's got little knobs on it for volume

0:25:47and all of that, and I attached that to the underside of my desk too.

0:25:52So now I feel like a real professional, because I've got audio equipment attached to my workspace

0:25:57all the time.

0:25:58But it's just velcroed in there, and I can rip it off and take it with me if I need to.

0:26:03That required me to move the button that adjusts my desk up and down, which I did.

0:26:07So what's on my desk now is there's the speaker which has got the Relay FM commemorative wooden

0:26:13block and the orange brain on it.

0:26:17And I've got, like my iPhone is sitting here right now, and I've got this blue metal box

0:26:21that's my mute button that I keep thinking I may actually also want to velcro to the

0:26:25bottom of the desk but I'm out of velcro right now.

0:26:28So what I'm saying is you should be proud of me.

0:26:30I don't have a pile of things on here.

0:26:32I've got color-matched cables.

0:26:33They run off the end of the desk.

0:26:35I've got a cable management solution.

0:26:38This is as good as it's ever gonna get.

0:26:40So yeah, so you should, maybe I'll take a picture of it

0:26:45so that when I start piling junk onto this desk,

0:26:48I have deniability, I can just show people the picture

0:26:50and say, no, no, this is what it looks like.

0:26:52- Oh, we need a picture for the show notes too.

0:26:54- I guess I will take a picture for the show notes,

0:26:55but I think it's, yeah, it's funny.

0:26:58I didn't know I had that in me to be so,

0:27:03I don't know, so careful about this stuff, let's say,

0:27:06that I would be like, oh, let's make it a white cable.

0:27:08That would be perfect.

0:27:09But I did that, that's what I did.

0:27:11So it looks nice.

0:27:12It's nice to have, since it's on an arm too,

0:27:15to lift the iMac up and have the big wide open space

0:27:18below it, it's nice.

0:27:21- So just over a year ago, before I started Relay,

0:27:26I basically went through and did a big overhaul

0:27:31of my physical space here.

0:27:34Changed everything up and did what you did.

0:27:38Not to the level that you did it in Velcro,

0:27:41anything to anything, but I got like, you know,

0:27:44those Velcro cable ties.

0:27:46- I have some of those right now.

0:27:47- And I did a bunch of that kind of stuff

0:27:49to make my whole workspace look a bit better.

0:27:52But over time, I've been adding more and more things,

0:27:54and right now, the desk itself is in a better,

0:27:58like, situation than it's ever been.

0:28:00It is generally cleaner than ever

0:28:02because of the way that I've arranged it

0:28:04and everything's kind of got its place

0:28:06and I have a monitor now as well as having the TV

0:28:10for the games consoles and I have like a two max system

0:28:14going on and I'm very happy with it and it's very nice.

0:28:18But the cable situation down the back there is a nightmare

0:28:22and I can't even, it's gotten to the point now

0:28:25where it's so bad, I don't even know how I could begin

0:28:29fix it. It's that kind of scenario I've got going on right now. It's kind of to

0:28:34the point where I don't think I can do it. I think I need someone to come and do

0:28:39it for me because it's at that point where it's just beyond my help and

0:28:44assistance. I've got it into this mess and there is absolutely no way I can get

0:28:49it out of it. Periodically I take my... so in our living room, which again you've

0:28:53seen, you know there's a big... we got a big TV and then there's like the

0:28:56receiver and their video game consoles and all this stuff and twice this summer

0:28:59I have because we got a new TV as we talked about and because I got the Xbox

0:29:05One I've done the teardown and reconnect at least some large percentage

0:29:12of the stuff and I'll tell you every time I do it I come out with like three

0:29:17or four cables that are not connected to anything and I say to myself why where

0:29:21did this come from? Why is this here?" And probably I disconnected one side and thought

0:29:29I would get around to disconnecting the other and didn't or couldn't find it. And then later

0:29:33I would just keep plugging those in thinking they went somewhere, which they didn't, and

0:29:38eventually think like, "Oh, these don't go anywhere, but I don't know where they're plugged

0:29:41into on the other side," and so then disconnected them. And then they just sit there for a while,

0:29:46and just sort of hanging, not connected to anything, why are they there? And then the

0:29:51next time I pull something on they go, "Oh, this is not connected to anything." And then,

0:29:56yeah. So cables are the worst. They are the worst. I think it would be, other than all

0:30:03the extra work it causes, I think people should like every six months, they should disconnect

0:30:08all their cables and then reconnect all their cables. Just because you will, I swear you

0:30:15will find cables that you'd be like, "I don't need this cable. Why is this even here?" And

0:30:19And I think that would be a smart move.

0:30:21I think I need to do that.

0:30:23I think I need to burn everything down and start over again.

0:30:28With that kind of stuff, I got...

0:30:29Change your name.

0:30:30Yeah.

0:30:31Just shut it all down.

0:30:32The cables are too bad.

0:30:33But I feel like in that scenario, I have to then...

0:30:35I can't work the whole day because it's going to take me that amount of time to get everything

0:30:41back into some sort of sanity again.

0:30:44Yeah.

0:30:45Yeah.

0:30:46right now below my desk here are in decent shape because I've only been in

0:30:51this space with this stuff for a year and I don't have that many things hooked

0:30:56up because I only have the one computer and all of that but still it'll it'll

0:31:00it'll accumulate I'm sure of it I literally was pulling out HDMI cables

0:31:04going like oh I didn't know I had an extra HDMI cable oh here's another

0:31:08Ethernet cable I just I don't know why I got back there but it was back there so

0:31:14yeah cables they're the worst one day Myke one day everything will be decabled

0:31:18we'll live in a we'll put on our jumpsuits and and go to space and there

0:31:25will be no cables all well we'll just have max with one port mm-hmm sure we

0:31:30could do about it anyway that's a cable it's got a cable just one just just one

0:31:34cable and ever was the only allowed one cable you choose one thing it's a grim

0:31:39future you're describing so we have an interesting show today in general

0:31:43because our tech topics are mini topics.

0:31:46We're completely throwing out the normal format.

0:31:49We have one more mini topic, then we're doing Ask Upgrade.

0:31:52Then we have two Myke at the movie kind of things.

0:31:55We have the full on-- - Yeah, we have Myke

0:31:56at the movies and then we have bonus Myke at the movies.

0:31:59- It's Myke went to a movie yesterday.

0:32:01It's the-- - Yes.

0:32:02- It's the-- - He just has to talk about it.

0:32:04- It's not as catchy at vertical, but it is one,

0:32:09nevertheless. - Yes.

0:32:10- But you had some mini topic follow out, I think,

0:32:13that you wanted to do now?

0:32:14- Yeah, I have one really quick mini topic,

0:32:16again, about ATP 130, the Accidental Tech Podcast,

0:32:20maybe you've heard of it.

0:32:21And they were talking about Alphabet and Google,

0:32:23and then this came up when I was on Twit yesterday too.

0:32:26I just wanted to share really briefly

0:32:28my experience from IDG.

0:32:31So IDG was founded by a guy, Pat McGovern.

0:32:34He started Computerworld,

0:32:35he turned this into International Data Group,

0:32:38and it grew, and they added more media brands,

0:32:41but then over time he added investment and research

0:32:44and invested in all these international versions of IDG

0:32:49where they're in China and they're in Europe

0:32:51and they're in Africa and they're in Asia, the rest of Asia.

0:32:54And he was one of the first Western businesses

0:32:58to go into China.

0:32:59I believe one of the first Western businesses

0:33:01to go into Vietnam in the last 20 years, 30 years.

0:33:05And so he built this business.

0:33:07And I wanted to mention it because I see relations to this in Alphabet, which is you've got a

0:33:13founder or in the case of Google founders, and they create a thing.

0:33:17And then over time, the thing is much bigger than it was when it began.

0:33:21And you had that moment where you're like, how do we structure this?

0:33:24And this is definitely what Pat McGovern did.

0:33:26When I worked at IDG, he was the chairman.

0:33:31And so there was a board of directors, and then he hired basically a president, a CEO

0:33:37of the overall IDG.

0:33:40But everything under that was different businesses.

0:33:42They were companies and they had presidents.

0:33:46And this strikes me as being similar to what Google is doing, where that business has grown

0:33:52up.

0:33:53It's no longer Larry and Sergey are at Stanford and they've got an idea for a search engine,

0:33:56right?

0:33:57It's come a long way.

0:33:58some point, you know, if you're Larry and Sergey, there are two things you could do.

0:34:02You could say, you could have the discipline to say, "We've started to make some money.

0:34:06I'm going to take some money out and invest it in this other thing that I want to do."

0:34:11But instead they're like, "Well, let's just use Google's money to build this other thing,

0:34:15and it'll be part of Google. It won't be our money, it'll be Google's money. Let's just

0:34:19keep it all in the one business instead of making some other businesses." And so they

0:34:22did that, and they kept doing that, and they bought other companies, and they created these

0:34:26crazy lab divisions and it was all just part of Google. And over time, and this is the

0:34:31story that they seem to be telling now too, is over time, especially the last few years,

0:34:36they've realized it kind of doesn't make sense because as we said last week, there's Larry

0:34:40and Sergey's playground and there's sort of what we think of as base Google. And I know

0:34:44John Syracuse has said, I'm just going to call it Google forever, but I think I, given

0:34:51my experience at IDG it's like there is some freedom to run your own business

0:34:56and I think that this is what Sundar Pichai is going to get and I think this

0:35:01is what Tony Fadell has with Nest and I think that over time ideally you'll see

0:35:05that from Google Ventures and from the the labs projects and other stuff that

0:35:11they're doing that they will see of see themselves more as the standalone

0:35:14businesses that are part of a family with a shared ownership but that are

0:35:19allowed to chart their own course at least a little bit. Now this all comes

0:35:24down to what the founders want, what the what the guys, Larry and Sergey in this

0:35:27case, want. Because there the you know over my time at IDG the interference

0:35:35slash supervision from above varied a lot. There were times when we were very

0:35:40much pushed together and said you know you all need to do this even though it

0:35:45doesn't really benefit you because it benefits the group as a whole. But there

0:35:51were other times when that didn't happen and that was all within IDG's media

0:35:55group, the publishing group. We never got feedback about how the research company

0:35:59IDC did its job or what happened with Ventures. In fact, Ventures was kept at a

0:36:05distance because they would invest in companies that we would cover. So I

0:36:10wasn't even aware of what they were investing in, it was just completely

0:36:13separate. So it's going to be up to Larry and Sergey about how they play this, but I

0:36:19think the best solution here is, and what I hope they do, is let the businesses be the

0:36:25businesses and really just let Alphabet be a thing that transforms what we thought of

0:36:31as Google before a week ago into thinking of Alphabet as stuff that Larry and Sergey

0:36:38own, along with the investors who have no control. Nice trick. And that within that

0:36:46are a whole bunch of different companies, including Google. And that just because Google

0:36:49does something doesn't mean that Nest will follow along, and just because Nest does something

0:36:53doesn't mean that that is only in the best interest of the Google search engine. So we'll

0:36:57have to watch it, but it kept resonating with me that this is the sort of thing that happens

0:37:02when you have founders who have this huge business that keeps growing in all these different

0:37:06areas and you have to make some decisions about how you segment them and how you manage

0:37:10them because it gets too complicated. So, anyway.

0:37:14You mentioned the investors there. The investors remain the same though, right? Because…

0:37:19Well, okay, so right now the Alphabet holding company, which is coded as Google on the stock

0:37:26market, owns everything, right? So, first off, it doesn't preclude them from spinning

0:37:33things off, right? They could spin off Nest if they wanted to. They could. And give the

0:37:40stock, you know, give a... translate the stock out to the Nest people. I am not an investor,

0:37:45I'll just say that. But they could do that. They could do that. And the way they've structured

0:37:48their stock is interesting in that all of the stock that's been bought up when they

0:37:53went public that made them a whole lot of money, Larry and Sergey still have control.

0:37:57They have the voting, the majority of the voting shares, which is a brilliant thing

0:38:01that they did because they didn't want to lose control of their company. I think

0:38:04Steve Jobs may have given them some advice there. So they can kind of do what

0:38:08they want and the stock will get pummeled if the stock market doesn't

0:38:11like it but there's nobody who can like take over the board and say you're fired

0:38:15we're bringing in new management to run Google. So over time it wouldn't surprise

0:38:20me if they perhaps took more steps to separate some of their businesses but

0:38:27for right now yeah it's one in the end all of these companies have the same

0:38:31owner but they're being run separately and the question is how separately are

0:38:36they really being run because I like I said I saw it both ways at IDG. I don't

0:38:41know if it's my general kind of tendency for these things especially Google

0:38:46related things but on the face of all of this I believe it all makes sense to me

0:38:53like I can see my like let's imagine in ten years time Relay has 60 shows right

0:38:59because we just can't stop I can see a world where we would have like spin-off

0:39:05networks instead like you know let's say that we ended up with 10 tech podcasts

0:39:10and then we had 10 podcasts about movies and 12 about video games like I can see

0:39:16a world where like we would say oh and then you know this is where you go and

0:39:19get that stuff even if it was just like real AFM tech and it lived at this web

0:39:23do you see what I mean like I can understand that like I can see from a

0:39:27founder's point of view, like if your business continues to grow and grow and

0:39:31grow to the point where it doesn't make sense anymore then you might want to

0:39:34like restructure things so you're able to focus on the places you want to focus

0:39:39on because if it gets to the point where I'm like I'm totally done with tech I

0:39:43only want to do video games but yet all I keep getting is this tech stuff like

0:39:47why don't I just put somebody else in to do that and then I'll just go to do

0:39:50video game stuff but I remain with the same level of control that I had before

0:39:54I just don't have to care about any of the stuff that I don't want to care about

0:39:57But as long as the tech shows keep making the money then they'll keep paying for whatever other stuff

0:40:03I want to do because I have these ideas in my mind of like things I would like to do in the future

0:40:08like just other little projects and I see like

0:40:12Relay and the money the income that I make from relay helping me afford to do that at some point, you know

0:40:17Well another example. I mean obviously the difference between

0:40:22certain kinds of podcasts is very much less than the difference between

0:40:26a search engine and a self-driving car. But it's on this

0:40:29continuum. I was going to use as an example, there was a podcast network

0:40:33called Earwolf

0:40:34and they hired their own some ad sales people to sell ads for their

0:40:39podcasts

0:40:39and at some point they realized that that was a totally different kind of

0:40:43business but also a successful business with a lot of growth

0:40:46and that's so that's mid-roll media which just got bought by

0:40:51uh, by uh, Scripps and that's where our friend Lex Friedman works.

0:40:54And, um, you know, that's what they did is that the guy who founded

0:40:59Earwolf said, let's essentially split this in two and it's, I think it's

0:41:04the same company or they're, you know, two companies share with a, with a

0:41:08shared single owner, but that was what they did is they said, Oh, this is

0:41:11two things, not one, it started as one thing, and then it got big enough

0:41:14that they realized, well, this thing to grow and improve actually needs to

0:41:18be you know be its own thing and not just attached to this other business

0:41:22that we've got that's one of the reasons business is so hard business is tough

0:41:25man and then as of today they're a whole new thing as well yeah oh sure they got

0:41:30my stuff they're working yeah they're working on world domination over there

0:41:34too yep the Netflix for podcasting Jason you've got that going for us yeah yeah

0:41:40the Netflix for old episodes of podcast that you now can't listen to unless I

0:41:44just but I love this fast company title that the title for the poster to put in

0:41:48show notes is how the Netflix of podcasts we've been waiting for, who was waiting for

0:41:52that? Who was waiting for that? Who was waiting for the Netflix of podcasts? I like the concept,

0:41:59so what I like about the concept, and Alex mentioned something about this, what I like

0:42:02about the concept of what they're doing is right now it's very hard to gain a new audience

0:42:08for a podcast, especially like a one-off or a miniseries, and so I think they're envisioning

0:42:14this as being a place you could release audio content almost like an audible where you could

0:42:18say look all subscribers have access to this new special from a comedian or this new you

0:42:24know six episode mini series from an npr person that you really like and you get access to

0:42:29all of it just by being a subscriber i i think there's something interesting there it it

0:42:33strikes me as being more like audible than like what we think of as podcasting today

0:42:37but it's still you know audio content spoken content um i would imagine that when you talk

0:42:41about Deezer and Spotify and companies like that that are music services that are now

0:42:48starting to think about spoken content as well, they're thinking the same thing too.

0:42:52So it's interesting. It'll be interesting to see where that all goes. In the meantime,

0:42:56we will continue to release our podcasts on RSS where you can listen to it with anything

0:43:02and it's simultaneously released worldwide and all of that good stuff that comes with

0:43:05being a podcast.

0:43:06Yeah, the piece that we may have missed from this story is what Wolf is doing is taking

0:43:10the back catalogs of some shows and putting them behind a paywall effectively. You can

0:43:14still listen, my understanding is you can still listen to the new episodes, but if you

0:43:19want the back catalogs, they'll be behind a paywall, which is, and they have Marc Maron

0:43:23right at the very top of this and he's been doing that for a long time.

0:43:26Yeah, he was using Libsyn's service and may still be, and Libsyn, you pay them and they

0:43:30give you an app and they can gate your content and you have to pay a subscription fee and

0:43:35then you get access to the old content that's older than whatever, five weeks or ten weeks

0:43:39or something like that. It's a little similar to what Ricky Gervais did with his podcast

0:43:44where after a little while they went down off the internet and were sold as audiobooks

0:43:49on Audible and iTunes. That kind of thing. And so this is what they seem to be doing

0:43:55too is you, like with Audible, they want you to have a subscription and then you have access

0:44:00to this stuff including old episodes of podcasts and stuff like that.

0:44:03So there you go.

0:44:05Yeah.

0:44:06Should we take a break for Ask Upgrade?

0:44:08It's that time already!

0:44:10It is.

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0:46:30Okay, so our first Ask upgrade this week comes in to us from Jacob and Jacob asked, and he

0:46:36asked this of you, Jason, have you tried AT&T's wifi calling on iOS 9 yet?

0:46:42And my answer was no.

0:46:45I have since turned it on but not tried it.

0:46:47But I did turn it on, got the warning saying, you know, "911 services, your emergency services

0:46:53may not be available and tell us what your address is and are you sure you want to do

0:46:58this?"

0:46:59And I went through all of that and then it said, "This service will be available soon,"

0:47:02and then took me back to the settings screen with it turned off.

0:47:04And I thought, "Oh, that's weird."

0:47:06And I turned it on again and it turned itself off.

0:47:08And I thought, "Okay, that's weird."

0:47:10And then I turned it on again and then it stayed on because I think that was the, you

0:47:14know it would be on soon and then finally my account was flagged or

0:47:18whatever as being able to turn that on and then I turned it on and I have not

0:47:21used it so have you used it? Never fear Jacob, Myke is here. So EE here has

0:47:28Wi-Fi calling and has had it for a while I don't know why I never had it enabled

0:47:33I think that it's the the it's gotten better with iOS 9 I'm not a hundred

0:47:38percent sure why it has worked or why it hasn't but anyway I was on a call I was in my

0:47:43co-working space the other day and I was on a call and my phone died and iOS 9

0:47:51popped up to say hey this call failed it didn't say this exact words but it's

0:47:54something this effect that call failed would you like to turn on Wi-Fi calling

0:47:57and I said yes I was fine I would like to do that so I turned it on and now

0:48:02whenever I'm on a Wi-Fi access point I have EE my network name in the top I

0:48:08have two bars and then in between the EE and the Wi-Fi logo it says Wi-Fi call

0:48:13always which annoys me I wish wasn't there but I so now my understanding is

0:48:20that I get better reception where as a Wi-Fi access point and I haven't noticed

0:48:25any difference at all it works seamlessly I haven't had any dropped

0:48:29calls recently it happens every now and then so I assume it's working pretty

0:48:34well but I liked that it popped up at that moment that was that's great user

0:48:39experience right there. Like the call failed and the phone knows that there is

0:48:44a solution to make this better that I didn't know about so it pops up. Because

0:48:48this is the thing that I think about quite a lot, especially looking at these

0:48:51iOS devices now. As they are getting older and more mature they are becoming

0:48:57infinitely more complex. And so many features now are enabled and people will

0:49:04never find out about them because why would they know? You know, like something

0:49:09will be enabled and nobody knows where to find it or nobody knows it exists and

0:49:14the Apple tips app just drives everyone crazy so you end up in a scenario where

0:49:18people don't know about certain features that their devices have and that's just

0:49:22the way it is and that just feels like such a an annoying you know it's like an

0:49:26annoying thing but I don't know how you get around it without completely redoing

0:49:30everything every time and you can't do that sometimes you have to just add

0:49:33features in but you end up in a scenario where it becomes you know more and more

0:49:38complex to try and work out how to do these things. It's just a way of the beast, I suppose.

0:49:44Yeah, but I like that, and that's the idea, right, that you surface new features by saying,

0:49:48"Oh, it seems like you were trying to do something. It's clippy. I've noticed that your

0:49:52collar's dropping. Would you like me?" But there's a good instinct there of saying, "This looks like

0:49:57a job for a new feature that you haven't turned on yet. And, you know, would you like me to turn

0:50:01it on now?" My phone does not say that. I have Wi-Fi calling turned on, and it doesn't do anything.

0:50:07it just is showing me two dots, AT&T, and a Wi-Fi symbol. That's it. I don't know.

0:50:14Maybe I don't have... it says I have Wi-Fi calling, but maybe I don't. I don't know.

0:50:19Who knows? The magic of Wi-Fi calling. Yeah. The next question comes from Lee.

0:50:24Do you have any advice for someone that works full-time but owns their own

0:50:29website and does some freelance writing and podcasting in their spare time? To

0:50:33how do you build a following? This is that question huh? Can I can I start

0:50:42shall I start? You may finish. Lee it's not easy. I kind of I guess over the last

0:50:57six years nearly have built a great following now to the point where I can

0:51:01do this full-time and I'm very thankful to everybody that checks out anything

0:51:04that I ever do but I guess I came from obscurity in the last six years right

0:51:10like you know it's not like some people like your great self Jason who you

0:51:14started your own thing now but you have been in the public eye in that scenario

0:51:19for many years at Macworld right you were you knew a lot of the people that

0:51:23you know now before you were independent I guess but for a lot longer than I did

0:51:28And for me, I guess the way that I did it was I found the thing that I liked to do,

0:51:33not necessarily the thing that I was good at. I kept doing it and I kept doing

0:51:38it because I liked doing it, right, like I just enjoyed doing podcasting. It's the

0:51:42thing that I have liked to do and I just kept doing it and the reason I say it's

0:51:46important is because if you like the thing, if you love the thing, you will

0:51:50stay awake until 2 in the morning to get the things on that you need to do, right.

0:51:53So that is part of it, is the finding the thing that you love because it gives you

0:51:56dedication to continue. Be consistent with it. If you're gonna do a weekly

0:52:01schedule, stick to the weekly schedule. Otherwise be consistent because people

0:52:04are more likely to remember you if they see you a lot, I think is another thing

0:52:09that I have found. And try and find a thing to do differently. So way back in

0:52:14the day in like 2010-2011 with my first ever podcast, I started bringing guests

0:52:20on to the show to interview them and also to have them talk about the

0:52:25tech news with me and my co-host Jason Snell was one of those guests that's the

0:52:28first way that me and you ever had an interaction and it was basically what it

0:52:34did was then was it enabled people to find out about the show because they

0:52:39would link to it or whatever like you know that kind of thing this stuff is

0:52:42way too common now you know people guesting on podcasts where it wasn't so

0:52:46much I think five years ago because one thing there wasn't as many podcasts yeah

0:52:50But what I know that did was that helped give me a leg up because it helped me get a lot

0:52:56of contacts and that kind of thing.

0:52:57So I'm not saying follow my exact advice, but try and find a thing that you can do that

0:53:05sets you apart from other people.

0:53:06It's a very, very difficult thing to do, but that's the only advice I can give you, I'm

0:53:11afraid.

0:53:12I will follow up by saying I think that's great advice.

0:53:14You said, you talked about consistency.

0:53:17I think consistency is the most important thing.

0:53:19I mean, I suppose you could be consistently bad,

0:53:22but ideally you're doing good work.

0:53:24You're doing something you like

0:53:26and that you're passionate about,

0:53:27and then you need to be consistent.

0:53:28And if that's being a podcaster, it means, like you said,

0:53:32it means releasing an episode every week

0:53:33if you say you're going to.

0:53:35And not doing, I can't tell you how many podcasts I see

0:53:37that it's like there's an episode or two,

0:53:39and then there's no episodes for four months,

0:53:42and then there's an episode,

0:53:43and then there's no episodes for eight months,

0:53:45And then there's another two episodes.

0:53:47And, uh, that is not a way to build the following.

0:53:50So be consistent.

0:53:51If you're, if you're a freelance writer, try to find consistent work

0:53:55and be consistent in your work.

0:53:56Um, you know, do turn in consistent work, uh, be on time.

0:54:01Editors really appreciate you being on time and doing your job, and they will

0:54:06reward you for being on time and doing a good job by giving you more work.

0:54:11And that allows you to be more consistent.

0:54:12And I would say focus is the other thing I would mention, which is, um, building

0:54:17your own site and freelance writing and podcasting and working full time is a lot

0:54:22of things I do those three things without working full time.

0:54:25And I feel like I don't have enough time.

0:54:27So, uh, one thing you might want to look at is what are the most important things

0:54:32to you?

0:54:33What do you really want to focus on and be consistent with?

0:54:35Because it's possible that you could be more consistent and build more of a

0:54:39following by not doing a whole bunch of different things but focusing on a few

0:54:44things so not knowing enough about your situation to say more than that that

0:54:47that's I think the other thing I'd throw out there there consistency audiences

0:54:51audiences like it editors who will give you assignments for freelance work like

0:54:56it I think I think it goes a long way great great advice Jason Jim asked what

0:55:03our thoughts were on dr. Dre's exclusivity on Apple music so Dre has

0:55:08written a soundtrack for an upcoming movie called Straight Outta Compton

0:55:12which is based on the life and times of the NWA. I think it makes perfect sense

0:55:18right? Of course he's gonna do it you know it's he's an Apple employee. I think

0:55:22that this is the type of stuff that will really help set apart Apple and will be

0:55:28a thing that will enable them to continue from the artists and people

0:55:34that they have working for and with them and the influence that those people can

0:55:39also have on other people you know mm-hmm so I think that it makes perfect

0:55:44sense that Dre did the if he was gonna do it anywhere of course it made sense

0:55:47to do an Apple music and of course it makes sense to give them an exclusivity

0:55:51especially still during the free period which when is that ending that's got to

0:55:54be soon ish September September time okay something like that maybe maybe

0:56:00they extend it if you buy a new phone that'd be smart. God that would be smart wouldn't it?

0:56:04I don't love exclusivity any content exclusivity like this because

0:56:08inevitably there's something that you can't get that you want because it's

0:56:11locked up somewhere else and you aren't gonna switch to their thing but that

0:56:15means you just can't get the thing that you want. I don't love that but that's just the way it is.

0:56:19As a consumer I don't love it but I'm thinking of it as a pure business you know makes

0:56:22sense for Apple to do that. Whether it's the right quote unquote right thing to

0:56:27do. Of course it makes sense that it would do it.

0:56:31Blaze would like to know our thoughts that now the YouTube mobile app supports

0:56:36vertical video. What do we think about vertical videos? So instead of this is a

0:56:40video being taken in portrait mode with a device. This is a this is our

0:56:45vertical video vertical. I think that may be the entire reason why I wanted this

0:56:52to be in this show. I hate vertical video because, you know, most of the devices

0:56:59that I watch big things on are, of course, horizontal, but the fact is if it's stuff

0:57:05that's only going to be viewed or mostly going to be viewed vertically,

0:57:09and people shoot things vertically, I would prefer that we all agree to watch

0:57:14things in horizontal, you know, in landscape mode. I feel like we're gonna

0:57:18get to the point where our cameras are going to be so high resolution that you're going

0:57:23to be able to hold your phone vertically and take a horizontal video in HD. And, you know,

0:57:30and maybe it's just a matter of how it, you know, how it crops it or how it presents it.

0:57:35But you know, these kids today with their vertical video, it's so natural to take vertical

0:57:39video, I have to remind myself not to take vertical video. But you know, if you ever

0:57:44plan on it being on a TV or something like that or on CNN or something like that. Those

0:57:51are all formatted for wide. So, you know, but if it's just to send it to your friends

0:57:57or whatever, then who cares? That's what I think.

0:58:00>> It doesn't bother me at all. Like, I tend to hold my device in portrait mode. So it

0:58:06works perfectly. So I think it's great that YouTube are supporting it because if you're

0:58:10going to do it, it makes sense to watch it that way.

0:58:13I agree, I agree. Like I said, I think the real solution here is to make cameras that

0:58:17are good enough that when you hold it in that natural portrait orientation, by default,

0:58:22it still shoots a widescreen video. But that's not how it works now. So there you go.

0:58:29Indeedy. Indeedy. So we are now going to approach the first mic at the movies topic this week.

0:58:36So again, I'll explain this. I've, as we spoke about on Twitter, as we do every now and then,

0:58:41Jason has assigned me to watch an 80s movie, this time it is WarGames.

0:58:45I'm going to talk about that.

0:58:47But yesterday evening I went to see Inside Out and I really want to talk about it with

0:58:52Jason.

0:58:53So after we have spoken about WarGames, we'll be talking a little bit about Inside Out.

0:58:57I just have some thoughts and feelings that I wanted to share with Jason.

0:59:02So let's talk about WarGames.

0:59:03Okay, so the idea here is that I try to pick a movie from the 80s that you haven't seen.

0:59:07That seems to be what we've fallen into.

0:59:09And although your discussion of the new Arment podcast with the top fours made me want to

0:59:18have you watch High Fidelity, which is a great movie and it's about a guy who makes lots

0:59:24of top five lists, it's not from the 80s.

0:59:28So for now I'm sticking with the 80s.

0:59:30And so you hadn't seen War Games, which is not on my list of my 10 favorite movies or

0:59:37anything, although it's a movie I like a lot.

0:59:38think it might be on John Syracuse's list, but it is certainly a key film in

0:59:45terms of the depiction of early kind of computer nerd stuff. I would say

0:59:53it's the, if not the first, one of the first, like truly a movie about

0:59:58being a personal computer nerd. It's from 1983, directed by John

1:00:05Adam starring Matthew Broderick, Ally Sheedy and Dabney Coleman, among others.

1:00:11So before I go in with my usual what I knew about this movie before and then

1:00:18maybe talk about how I felt about the movie, we should thank friends of the

1:00:22show, the great Smile Software. Oh do we have a friend? We do indeed. We do indeed. It's been a

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1:00:39thought I would have this whole segment brought to you by smile because I knew

1:00:43they were excited about the thermonuclear war that ends the world

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1:04:00Thank you so much to Smile for their support of this show.

1:04:05So should we do this?

1:04:07Hello, greetings Professor Falcon.

1:04:11Oh, he's turned into the computer. I was worried this was gonna happen. So, War Games.

1:04:16Shall we play a game? Let's get to that in a minute.

1:04:20Okay. I knew nothing at all about this movie.

1:04:22I figured. Like, not one thing. I didn't have any pop

1:04:27culture things that I knew came from it. The "shall we play a game" stuff that you just

1:04:31mentioned I know comes from it now, right? But I didn't know that. I knew it was a very

1:04:36popular nerd movie and I knew that Matthew Broderick was in it because I

1:04:41opened up IMDB because I always have IMDB open when I'm watching these movies

1:04:45so I can write down the characters names because I always forget them and I love

1:04:49Matthew Broderick I think he's great. I really enjoyed this movie you did it

1:04:55again. That's good. I really liked it I really did I have some notes in the

1:05:00middle of my discussion today about 80s movies in general but yeah this was

1:05:05another great one. I think again like some of the other movies that we've spoken about

1:05:09it had some plot issues which I'll get to but overall I found it very enjoyable it was

1:05:17a lot of fun and I kind of liked the overall kind of messages that it was giving out which

1:05:23we'll talk about. So let's go through the movie. It begins in a very windy and mystery

1:05:30location. Oh yeah this movie has a very surprising beginning when we rewatched it for the Incognito

1:05:35comparable, a bunch of us said, "Wow, I forgot that whole beginning part is there," which

1:05:40is it's out in the middle of, I don't know, South Dakota or Louisiana or one of those

1:05:45other frigid northernmost states. Louisiana's not up there, Myke. Reference. And there's

1:05:53like a secret door that leads to a secret location that leads to like a missile silo

1:05:58where they're launching or theoretically launching nuclear missiles, right?

1:06:03Yep.

1:06:04movie you expected to see right? Not at all actually because it's very serious

1:06:09uh and and Leo from the West Wing is there. Sure never seen the West Wing. Oh Myke well that's a

1:06:20that's another thing entirely. Yeah we're not gonna do that because we'll be here forever but

1:06:24that's actually on my list of shows to watch. TV shows I tend to like very light-hearted TV shows

1:06:31in general. Me and my girlfriend are, well it's her first time but I'm

1:06:37rewatching the American office right now. I like that show a lot. So we are

1:06:43kind of, we go into this lab, it looks like it's a house initially, right, that

1:06:48these two guys go into these big briefcases. It turns out to be this lab. And they pick up

1:06:54revolvers, they put bullets in the revolvers. I didn't know why they were

1:06:57doing this, it didn't make sense to me but it like makes sense in a bit, and there you

1:07:02go into this like control room and my first thing I noticed which was really weird to

1:07:07me, so you go into this control room, so it's big like vault doors, lots of vault doors

1:07:11in this movie, they must have got some sort of discount somewhere, there's vault doors

1:07:15everywhere, these huge thick doors, there's a sign on the wall of the outside of the vault

1:07:21room which it lingers on for just a second which says "Anyone urinating in this area

1:07:27will be discharged. Like I wonder like in the set designer like in their mind why

1:07:34they decided to include that. Like why include that? That may have thought it

1:07:38was a joke and then they and then it turns out it ended up in the movie. Just

1:07:44very just a very peculiar inclusion you know? Yeah. But it was there we had it.

1:07:49Okay. And then effectively what I find out and what you find out is that there

1:07:56these guys, there's two guys in this room and they're sitting in front of these big

1:07:59control panels and they're doing a bunch of tests and things like that. They are

1:08:03in command of nuclear warheads and there is a siren and there's this whole scene

1:08:09which I love this scene, right? So there's this siren that goes off and this siren

1:08:15gives out some message and then some codes and there is then this whole big

1:08:20scene of the two of them working in tandem. They must have gotten this from

1:08:24the actual procedures. This must be similar to all the kind of thing that

1:08:27happens because it's so interesting and feels so right. There's two guys, they

1:08:32each write down half of the code each that's given out. It's like they

1:08:37write down or they write down the whole 10-digit code or whatever it is. They

1:08:42write down on these like acetate like all these laminated pieces of paper with

1:08:47these pencils that can be wiped off. Then they each go over to this cabinet and

1:08:54they have a combination each to unlock this this little cabinet. They open these

1:08:58cabinets and they bring out these plastic things which they break open.

1:09:01When they break them open they each take out this piece of paper that's inside

1:09:05and they unfold the piece of paper and each of them has half of the code which

1:09:10they have to independently verify to each other that is correct. They then

1:09:14like flick a bunch of switches and that kind of thing because they're verifying

1:09:19at that point that they have received an actual real code that is not a test that

1:09:23they are to launch the nuclear weapons.

1:09:25They each get their keys.

1:09:28They put their keys in.

1:09:29They flicked a bunch of stuff.

1:09:30And then it all kind of one of the guys

1:09:32starts to crack and he wants to get somebody

1:09:35on the phone. Right.

1:09:36And you can see the doubt in his eyes

1:09:39because he's uncomfortable with the idea

1:09:41of having to kill all these people. Right.

1:09:43And he's like, oh, can you just get

1:09:46somebody on the phone for me?

1:09:47I need to speak to someone.

1:09:48And this other guy is like,

1:09:49this isn't protocol.

1:09:50This isn't protocol.

1:09:51And he's like, I want somebody on the phone

1:09:52before I killed 20 million people and the countdown's going off in the

1:09:57background and then he can't get anybody on the phone no one will speak to this guy

1:10:00and the countdown's going down going down and then the other guy draws a

1:10:04revolver upon him and is like you have to do this turn your key sir there you go

1:10:11and then what how does it end this got on my head now how does the scene end

1:10:18And it cuts away, right?

1:10:19I think that's it.

1:10:20There is a resolution, it just cuts away, and then the movie begins.

1:10:26And it seemed really strange.

1:10:28So you begin, the movie begins, and we're now at NORAD, and that's like, what is NORAD?

1:10:33It's like some missile defense location?

1:10:35This is the North American, yeah, this is the central command for the American nuclear

1:10:41missile arsenal, basically.

1:10:44in the middle of a mountain somewhere to be protected from nuclear war basically.

1:10:51And I thought that we were going back in the past, that we'll get back to this later, which

1:10:58is what I thought.

1:10:59And then it starts and two guys arrive, they arrive in a jeep to meet a lady who's waiting

1:11:05for them to take them to a meeting.

1:11:07And there's this thing, so another massive vault door is starting to close and there

1:11:11are people jumping through it.

1:11:13like yeah they're gonna get crushed it's like why would you do that? That seems so dangerous. Like this massive door. Like you are going to be flattened.

1:11:22But in they go and we are kind of sitting, they're taken to this this group of people

1:11:29and there are a bunch of people in a room and they are basically talking

1:11:34about things and they realize that what happened, well that whole

1:11:38opening scene was a test of those men and apparently like they say I can't

1:11:45remember the percentage but like a high percentage of the test subjects fail to

1:11:49launch the missiles right so the whole idea is we've got we've got men in these

1:11:53silos we give them the the legitimate order to launch the nuclear missiles to

1:11:58fire on the Soviet Union and a large percentage of them don't do it which is

1:12:04a problem if you're planning war in the US military in the Cold War. And I think it's

1:12:10Dabney Coleman who says, "We've got a project to automate this so that humans don't have

1:12:16to be involved because they have consciences and are worried about not killing people."

1:12:21And that's problematic. We need to be a little more ruthless as killing machines, apparently.

1:12:27That's the message here.

1:12:29Yep, and then basically we have the idea of them saying "take the men out of the

1:12:37loop". Exactly. Right, so what you need to do is get rid of the men and

1:12:42basically that's hand it over to computers and this is being said by... I'm

1:12:47bringing up the character's name now I didn't have... That's McKittrick isn't it?

1:12:50Danny Coleman? Yeah, McKittrick, yeah that's it. I didn't know his name but I

1:12:54know his character name. So McKittrick says this and he has been, you know, he has a

1:12:58system that he wanted to tell them would work and it would be an

1:13:02automated system and then the idea would be, you know, we all still sit at

1:13:06the top and we give the order but then once we've given the order, the order is

1:13:11executed. It doesn't go to anybody else for there to be any doubt, right? We give

1:13:16the order, the order is carried out and it's apparently the answer to all of

1:13:19the problems and McKittrick is explaining this to, I guess, people in

1:13:24the military but seem to be more in the president's camp, like I'm not a

1:13:27hundred percent sure what these people do. They seem to be agents of some kind, right?

1:13:31And they work in between the military and the president. And they go and show it around

1:13:37and the computer is the answer to all of their problems and it's called WOPR. W-O-P-R, it's

1:13:43an acronym of some description. And it plays war games. That's something that it has done

1:13:50for many years. It has tested itself by the fact that it understands war and it can judge

1:13:56everything it can judge who should fire first when they should fire it can

1:14:00calculate casualties all that kind of stuff it has been crunching all of this

1:14:03data on learning itself to be able to play these games and then they have the

1:14:10old general general Berenger I believe played by Barry Corbin

1:14:16yeah northern exposure another show you haven't seen yep who says I

1:14:22I wouldn't trust this overgrown pile of microchips any further than I could throw it.

1:14:27It's like it's a war of ideologies.

1:14:29Yeah, he's like a Texan.

1:14:30He's got his chewing tobacco in all the time,

1:14:34and he doesn't believe all this computer crap and thinks that there need to be military men in the loop here.

1:14:41It's like a man versus machine type thing.

1:14:44Exactly.

1:14:45You know, that's kind of how that works.

1:14:47That's definitely an undercurrent of society at this time, too.

1:14:50is what can we automate?

1:14:52How can computers replace people?

1:14:55And this is the computers can replace people

1:14:57at killing people.

1:14:58All right.

1:15:00- So it's, you know, this is kind of the way

1:15:05we leave this scenario, right?

1:15:08- Yes.

1:15:09- And it seems like, you know,

1:15:10they're gonna go with the computer

1:15:11and they're gonna give that a go.

1:15:13The guy says, "I'll tell the president about it."

1:15:16Then we go to our hero, David, who is played by Broderick.

1:15:20And he is first, the first time we see him he is playing a video game, Galaga,

1:15:26and I feel it's like a foreshadowing, right? You know, war games, you know, watch out,

1:15:31that kind of thing, I love that kind of stuff. And he is, realizes he's late for

1:15:36class and he sneaks into, you know, hightails it to class and he's late to

1:15:42class to a teacher who is a very peculiar character, the teacher, who

1:15:47who seems to like sometimes make jokes with the kids,

1:15:51but the rest of the time just loves giving Fs.

1:15:53Like he just relishes in giving an F,

1:15:55makes them come to the front of the class, very strange.

1:15:57- He's a jerk.

1:15:58Yeah, that teacher's a jerk.

1:15:59He is a jerk.

1:16:00I didn't think that,

1:16:02I mean, I'm sure I thought that at the time,

1:16:03but now as an adult, I look at that and think,

1:16:05that's a terrible teacher.

1:16:06That he like waves people's Fs in front of the class

1:16:10as he hands them out and sort of mocks them

1:16:13for being terrible students.

1:16:16But then again the kids make fun of him too, so that works.

1:16:21The line is who first came up with the idea of asexual reproduction and Matthew Broderick

1:16:27who's late to the class says "your wife?"

1:16:29So he gets sent to the principal's office.

1:16:32So I have a question for you about principal's offices.

1:16:35I don't know if you ever visited one.

1:16:39Only visiting, not sent there.

1:16:41Look at you.

1:16:43So in American pop culture, all principals offices look the same.

1:16:48There's a really big desk and there's a really big bench.

1:16:51Is that how they look?

1:16:53You know, I don't know.

1:16:56I think, yeah, I don't know.

1:16:58Maybe my, I think our principal's office had their desk and like a couple of, a couple

1:17:04of chairs.

1:17:06Not a, not a big, not a big, well, you, you wait at the bench by the receptionist and

1:17:11and then are sent into the principal's office.

1:17:13I think that's how that works.

1:17:15Yeah, I think that varies from school to school,

1:17:18but that's not an entirely accurate depiction

1:17:21of some of the school offices that I saw as a kid.

1:17:26- So David is taken in to the principal.

1:17:28We don't see what happens there.

1:17:29- He's been here before.

1:17:31He has that moment with the receptionist where she's like,

1:17:34I think we're all getting a little tired of this.

1:17:35And he says, yeah, I am too.

1:17:37(laughing)

1:17:39- Yup.

1:17:40And then basically we go to him leaving school and Jennifer has a motorcycle for a reason.

1:17:47Well a scooter, I think she's got a scooter or a moped or something.

1:17:51So Jennifer who he was giving around in class and this is Alice Sheedy who has been in many

1:17:58other other movies that you might have actually seen like The Breakfast Club.

1:18:02Yep.

1:18:02Okay, got one.

1:18:04And Short Circuit.

1:18:06- Yeah, yep, so she gives him a ride

1:18:11on her scooter back to his house.

1:18:14- Yep, and basically what they're going to do

1:18:19is he's saying, David's saying that he can help her

1:18:22with the F and can help her out basically.

1:18:26And what it transpires is that he is going to

1:18:30change her grade like he changes his grades

1:18:33in the school computer, can hack into the school computer.

1:18:35Now, this is the moment that you probably

1:18:38have been waiting for,

1:18:40where I talk about the computer equipment.

1:18:42- Yes.

1:18:43- I have zero idea about any of it.

1:18:44I don't know what any of it is.

1:18:46I have huge floppy disks,

1:18:48which I had a memory as a young boy at my uncle's house,

1:18:53he had these types of floppy disks,

1:18:57like the huge ones, right, that were actually floppy.

1:19:01- Yeah.

1:19:02- The actual disk itself,

1:19:03like the case that it was in was not rigid, right?

1:19:06- Yeah, oh yeah, I had those on my first computer.

1:19:10They were really big ones

1:19:12and then they were a little bit smaller ones

1:19:15that were the actual floppy disks.

1:19:17And his computer in this is some weird computer

1:19:19that according to Wikipedia,

1:19:21it's an 8080 microcomputer that's not a brand name,

1:19:25but given that this movie is in 1983,

1:19:28that is a probably inaccurate computer for the time.

1:19:30would be better if it was an Apple II or a TRS-80 or something like that. But it's a, you know,

1:19:35a big keyboard and a screen with text on it, and he has an acoustic coupler modem, which we're going

1:19:41out of style at that point, to a modem that, you know, is actually, you know, a box that you just

1:19:47plug your phone line into. This is the kind where you had your big handset of your telephone and

1:19:53then you would plug it in, which for stagecraft purposes I think it makes a lot more sense to use

1:19:57used that in this movie just because you get the exciting things where he's picking up

1:20:01the phone and hearing the sounds and all of that.

1:20:04And so it makes sense even though I think they were on their way out or were out by

1:20:07the time that this movie was made.

1:20:10So he's got a computer with the screen with text on it and he's got the modem and he's

1:20:15got the big telephone in his room, he's got his own line, you know, so he can make calls

1:20:20and pirate software and do stuff like that.

1:20:23Yeah, that was the other thing that I wasn't familiar with. I knew what it did, but it's

1:20:27like I've never seen that type of modem before where you actually put a telephone handset

1:20:32on top of it.

1:20:33Yeah, and then it's basically got a speaker and a microphone, and it makes the computer

1:20:38sounds out of the one and listens for the computer sounds from the other computer out

1:20:42of the other one, and that's how it transfers data. Which you can't, obviously, that has

1:20:48to be really slow data transfer, and that's why they switched, I never had a modem like

1:20:53That's why they switched, even the first modem I had was a 300 baud modem, it was a direct connect kind of thing because that was just not...

1:21:00You couldn't get very much speed on it because you were again dealing with a microphone and a speaker in order to make all the noises

1:21:07that to transmit data. So they got they got past that really quickly.

1:21:10So then we

1:21:14kind of... Jennifer is really unimpressed by this.

1:21:17She is angry, if anything, about about the fact that he wants to change her grade.

1:21:22and doesn't want a part of it at all and she leaves but then David changes her

1:21:28grade from an F to an A anyway. So that you know that continues and then we

1:21:34end up the next scene we start to see his parents who are very

1:21:39peculiar people. They are. They eat raw corn. Yeah I don't understand why that happened.

1:21:48So it's a bizarre part of the movie that I we talked about being

1:21:51I don't really understand why it's there other than to add some jokes, and I guess it's a commentary on like

1:21:55West Coast 80s culture that the mom thinks that

1:22:00You should just eat your corn raw because you can really taste the nutrients to which the dad

1:22:05Says and I think they kept it in because I mean it's funny the dad says can we just take some pills and then cook?

1:22:11the corn yeah, but but there's also the butter the corn with a piece of bread which is easy and

1:22:17Honestly since I rewatched this movie for the incomparable

1:22:21I that's now how I butter my corn genius. Then you still get the bread afterwards

1:22:26Yeah, exactly and it goes all over the the the corn cob because it's impossible to butter corn

1:22:32Yeah, I think that somebody made a director just that was the way he buttered corn and just wanted to get more people to know

1:22:38The whole the whole dynamic in the house is amusing because you know in a movie that really wants to streamline

1:22:43You could take a lot of that stuff out. He says his parents aren't home

1:22:46They're kind of absent you could just essentially have the parents not be in the movie very much

1:22:50but instead they are they have their their little quirks and

1:22:54They make him embarrassed later when they ask about his little friend

1:22:58Would you like your little friend to come to dinner at a key moment? He has to take out the trash

1:23:03I mean, which is I think directly referenced in

1:23:06Galaxy Quest have you seen that no

1:23:08Myke anyway when Justin Long gets asked to take out the trash in Galaxy Quest

1:23:13I feel like that is just a direct quote of

1:23:15um of war games, but uh, so yeah, his parents are quirky and but they both work as as he explains to ally sheedy

1:23:22So they're not home during the day when he can get up to his computer shenanigans and you know

1:23:27Like bring a girl into his room without anybody seeing which he does

1:23:30But later on in the movie, they have no problem with it

1:23:33Yeah, anyway, yeah, they don't oh, no, she walks in he's in that later scene and he's got like

1:23:39no shirt on and there's a lot of there's a lot of hilarious embarrassment because you get the sense

1:23:44that that David doesn't have a lot of experience with girls and Ally Sheedy is is obviously

1:23:50interested in or intrigued by him and so like the one time she comes into the room and he looks at

1:23:56his room and he's like ah and he's picking up dirty laundry and underpants and things and

1:24:00putting them in a ball and throwing them in the corner and then you know he has no shirt on and he

1:24:05and he has to put his shirt on and all that and it's just it's there's some funny little bits

1:24:09where he's super awkward around her um which I I which I like I feel like that rings true too.

1:24:16So that part with the no shirt on is when she comes she comes back to the house like a day or

1:24:21two later because she wants her grade changed. Yeah she's decided to change it and and she goes

1:24:27and sees him and and and uh he says come back to the house and we'll change the grade but he

1:24:32But he can't change the grade because the computer is busy doing something.

1:24:34Exactly.

1:24:35It is dialing phone numbers because he had seen in the call on the cob scenario, he's

1:24:40seen a very intriguing computer ad about the Protovision, which is in a computer magazine

1:24:47and it was talking about video games like you've never seen before.

1:24:50And he wanted to play those games now.

1:24:52He didn't want to have to wait for like later in the year or whatever it was.

1:24:55So I wanted to ask you, because I've heard you mention on many shows about the ads in

1:24:59video, in computer magazines.

1:25:01This was a very intriguing ad, it was multiple page, you had to open up a flap to see the

1:25:06inside to find out the reveal of the ad.

1:25:08Was this what they were like?

1:25:09I assume so, I have no memory of this level of detail of an ad.

1:25:14I think by the time I was paying more attention they were not doing this anymore.

1:25:18But it's not outside the realm of possibility that you would get this like, you know, some

1:25:23software company would spend a lot of money to do a crazy gatefold ad in a computer magazine

1:25:28to get people excited about it.

1:25:30But as you said, David is not--David immediately thinks, "Can I, like, steal that?

1:25:35Can I download that?"

1:25:37And he proceeds to dial, as he explains to Ally Sheedy, every phone number in the exchange

1:25:44of Sunnyvale, which is where the--I think it was Sunnyvale--where the Protovision is.

1:25:49So you know, if it's, you know, 408-222-0000 and then 0001 all the way through all 10,000

1:25:58servers, hoping to find one that answers with a computer. And so they have a nice scene

1:26:04where they show, like, they get a pizza place and a laundry and a couple of people and a

1:26:09couple of no answers. And, you know, it's explaining this concept, which is quaint because

1:26:17this became known as "war dialing" after the movie War Games. This method became known

1:26:23as that, named after this. And in fact, when Wi-Fi became a thing and people were driving

1:26:28around finding open Wi-Fi networks to connect to. That was called "war driving," which was

1:26:35based on war dialing, which is based on war games. So this movie didn't invent this technique,

1:26:42but it's the one that made the world know about it, and certainly this is where I learned

1:26:47about it.

1:26:49So Jennifer has a very interesting relationship with the computer in the way that she reacts

1:26:55to many of the things that it does. And she is clearly playing the uninformed

1:27:00people. Yeah, she's the audience proxy here, yeah. Because, for example, when

1:27:04he's going through the numbers and he finds some some ones that

1:27:07are worth trying, you know, he finds some places that are worth connecting to, and they

1:27:12eventually stumble upon, which would later be found out to be the missile

1:27:15defense system, basically. David tries to log in and it says "connection

1:27:21terminated and she goes connection terminated how rude how rude that's a

1:27:30funny scene though because he well he enters the password wrong and it just

1:27:32hangs up on him yep she's like huh how rude and then you know there's the whole

1:27:38thing I think it might be during this whole scene or maybe a little bit later

1:27:43where the he's able to talk to the computer and a computer can talk back to

1:27:48him and via this I think that this is over like over selling I can't imagine

1:27:53this would have been possible you can tell me if I'm wrong about the signals

1:27:56being able to be interpreted into human voice that seems like it was maybe

1:28:00over stretching for the time. So the way I always thought of it was that you know

1:28:07he's got a he's got a box that reads the serial port and does text-to-speech

1:28:12which is not implausible. There were bad, but you know, text-to-speech, honestly, text-to-speech

1:28:21has not come as far as you would think. I mean, you can remember how the original Mac

1:28:26text-to-speech worked. And yeah, the current text-to-speech is better than that, but it's

1:28:30not a lot better. And this is from this era. So it's not implausible, and I see why they

1:28:35did it from a filmmaking standpoint, because this way, you're not just reading text on

1:28:39a screen and he's as he's typing he's saying the words that he's typing and it's like they're

1:28:44having a conversation so it's a little it's more cinematic what's funny about this and

1:28:48something that i never noticed until i watched it for the incomparable is that the voice

1:28:54that you're hearing is actually the actor who plays professor falcon it's a brit it's

1:29:00a british accent and then it's pro it's hit and it's him and it's processed to sound like

1:29:06a computer-generated voice. And they do a great job with the processing because it sounds

1:29:10like a computer-generated voice. But if you listen to it and then you listen to the actor

1:29:15later you realize that it's his voice and the reason is because he created this computer.

1:29:23Even though that technically makes no sense. The only way it makes sense is if this is

1:29:28a stock... If he also invented a text-to-speech algorithm based on his own voice that went

1:29:33into every box that was, you know, made to do that, which seems seems like that

1:29:39would be in my head cannon. That'll be in my little fan fiction that I'll write

1:29:42about more games later. But it is it is a nice touch because it makes you feel

1:29:47that Joshua, the computers, the whopper, so named Joshua to refer to Professor

1:29:53Falcon's son, is, you know, is his product, is his thing, because it talks like him.

1:29:59I feel like that's just an easter egg the fact that it's him yeah yeah but it

1:30:05once it's it's not even something you're supposed to notice but I feel like it is

1:30:09tying you it's tying them together like just subconsciously but it's not meant

1:30:16to be noticed I think other than just subconsciously that that they're related

1:30:22So during this whole scene, so I love this whole scene with you have Jennifer

1:30:30Jennifer is here and she's just come for a run which is really weird I love her

1:30:35character by the way. Oh she's so great. Her character is so fantastic like she

1:30:40is fun she is very active she seems like a scooter. She goes running. She's like she got a

1:30:47a kind of tomboy like I don't even know if that's a politically correct phrase

1:30:54anymore I have no idea she's quite sporty and she feels like she can she

1:30:59can be a girl but she can also hang with the guys like she feels like she is a

1:31:03real great role model figure I don't know like there's just something about

1:31:06her whole character that I really warm to she's very positive very smart and

1:31:12funny and she's a great foil for David but this whole scene with the two of

1:31:16them in the bedroom and she like traps him in between her legs when he's trying

1:31:21to go past and it's your little friend does your little friend want to come to

1:31:24dinner too yeah and just this whole thing this whole little scene is one of

1:31:29the things that I just really love about 80s movies I love the music like I love

1:31:34the music like the soundtrack type music I love the kind of music where it's you

1:31:39know the music that runs through like the the score right I love the dialogue

1:31:45between everybody. Everything in general in 80s movies is more innocent and wholesome,

1:31:53which I like, you know? Because they're just fun movies, like they're not dark.

1:31:59Yeah, no, I mean, well okay, this movie gets dark, but it gets dark in different ways.

1:32:05Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking of like Batman, right?

1:32:09Yeah, well, and these kids that we meet here, right, I mean, they're not perfect, they don't

1:32:15get good grades, you know, they're skipping school, but at the same time, they're still,

1:32:23you know, and they're kind of innocent too, and they step in something and they have to

1:32:28learn about this thing that they screwed up on. I mean, he is logging into people's computers

1:32:34and changing grades and stuff. He's committing crimes, and yet in so many other ways, he's

1:32:38completely innocent about the world. And when they play the game and then it's on the news

1:32:45in sort of the next scene, they have that freak-out moment of like, "Oh my god, did

1:32:50we do this? What do we do? What do we do?" And they realize how in over their heads they

1:32:52are, and it's all kind of adorable. Also, it's funny the dynamic between them, because,

1:32:56you know, she is flirting with him. And it's like, you get the sense that you're starting

1:33:05from almost zero, like they know each other, but that they don't have any history to speak

1:33:11of and that this is the thing that causes them to get to know each other.

1:33:16And that's kind of adorable too, to watch their relationship kind of grow as she learns

1:33:21about the quirks and then they get put in this, you know, in this shocking thing that

1:33:25happens to them.

1:33:26And it may just be selection bias because of the movies that you're showing me, but

1:33:30I'm very much enjoying all of them for this reason.

1:33:32You know, like if they could say anything.

1:33:34I love that movie so much I'd see that again.

1:33:38And then, so basically there are these nerds at a lab that they go to see, Jim and Malvin,

1:33:45who are great comedy characters.

1:33:47Jim is very quiet and angry and Malvin is socially awkward and annoying.

1:33:51A little broad, little broad these characters.

1:33:53But yes, this is where you get the backdoors!

1:33:57Backdoors!

1:33:59That whole thing where they explain what backdoors are, which is again where most people heard

1:34:04for the first time about the concept of putting a backdoor in a computer system. It came from

1:34:08this, from this scene in this movie.

1:34:11So then it unfolds on montage, effectively, where David is trying many different things

1:34:19and he's looking at different resources and trying to come up with the password, which

1:34:24culminates in another scene back in his bedroom. This is where, yeah, this is another scene

1:34:31back in his bedroom you know basically Jennifer goes to see him he hasn't been

1:34:34in school for a while like you know like where has he been he's been I actually

1:34:40think this is the scene where he has his shirt off right it's it's this one or is

1:34:44it all the same scene anyway and then he kind of going through things he's got

1:34:47paper all over everything it kind of looks like a man possessed you know

1:34:51there are things hanging up everywhere that kind of stuff. He's been doing

1:34:54research we discover he's done he's gone to the library he's got like newspaper

1:34:58research and he's got like video clips and they watch they watch a video of him

1:35:03of the guy and Jennifer's like he looks really nice you know it's like a nice

1:35:07guy and then they read the obituary and find out he was 41 when he died and she

1:35:11looks at him in the video and says he wasn't that old and he was like he was

1:35:1441 David says and then Jennifer goes oh yeah that's old that's old makes me

1:35:21laugh every time and then they end up working out that Joshua the name of his

1:35:25son that died in a car crash is the password and they log into the system

1:35:29and then we have would you like to play a game and then he has lists all of the

1:35:33games you know there's some there's games like blackjack and tic-tac-toe and

1:35:38poker it suggests chess a nice game of chess would be nice but then David is

1:35:46drawn to a very exciting game called global thermonuclear war and basically

1:35:53they start this game of global thermonuclear war and it sets off alarms at NORAD because

1:35:59it has woken up the WAPA system which is now simulating that there have been missiles launched

1:36:07from Russia. Right, and it's a fun scene where, so after he changes the grade, he does a reservation

1:36:16on an airplane, going to Paris, all these things we can do that are pranks basically.

1:36:22So here, they kind of giggle and say, "Who do we want to nuke first?"

1:36:27And they choose Las Vegas, and then they say, "And also Seattle," because they're in the

1:36:31Seattle area.

1:36:33That's where they live.

1:36:34So they think this is going to be really funny.

1:36:37Cut to NORAD headquarters, the center of the United States nuclear missile arsenal, and

1:36:43the red alert goes off that there are Soviet missile launches and they're incoming to Las

1:36:47Vegas and Seattle.

1:36:48Because they are now using this machine for the actual processing, but now this machine is playing a game

1:36:55It looks to everybody else like it's real right and then the next day David sees a news report

1:37:02that basically there was

1:37:05You know, they reported. Oh, didn't they realize initially there was a

1:37:10It was a false alarm. So this is what happens and it's very funny

1:37:14And this is where David's mom says, "You need to take out the trash."

1:37:18And he flips off the computer, at which point the screens in NORAD go blank, and they're

1:37:24like, "Huh."

1:37:25And then the guy runs in saying, "It's a simulation!

1:37:28It's stopping!

1:37:29It's a simulation!"

1:37:31But they've already shut it down.

1:37:33But the computer guy tells them that it wasn't real, it was the computer, and they discover

1:37:39that somebody was dialing in from somewhere, but they terminated the call, but it was from

1:37:44from the Seattle, Washington area, that much they know for certain, but they don't know

1:37:49any more of that. And this is also at the point where the General goes to DEFCON 3 and

1:37:59then back to DEFCON 4, which is where that, in a million other movies since then, I think

1:38:04largely was popularized. It was a real thing, but it was largely popularized the first time

1:38:08people heard about military DEFCON, which goes all the way up to 1, which is World War

1:38:143, it's in this movie. They've got a nice little sign with all the numbers on it that

1:38:21they can show you where the Defcon is at the moment, defense condition.

1:38:26>> But the computer is alive at this point and wants to continue going down this route.

1:38:32>> Right, so the next day there's all the news stories about how there was a false alarm

1:38:37and there was almost a nuclear accident and that freaks David and Jennifer out because

1:38:41because they know that it must have been them who did that.

1:38:44And what have they gotten themselves into?

1:38:46- And then, so yeah, the computer calls him.

1:38:51(laughing)

1:38:53- Isn't that a great moment where he's like, no, go.

1:38:55It's like, I told you never to call me here.

1:38:58He's like, no.

1:38:59And it just keeps calling him back.

1:39:01He plugs it in. - And he plugs the phone.

1:39:02- We're still playing the game, it says.

1:39:04He's like, no, no, no, no, it's not me.

1:39:06Professor Falcon is dead.

1:39:07To which it responds something like,

1:39:09oh, I'm sorry to hear that, Professor Falcon.

1:39:10And it just keeps going because it's a computer and it doesn't understand.

1:39:14And he pulls the plug on his phone so it doesn't ring.

1:39:18And he and Jennifer agree to just not say anything and play it cool and nobody will

1:39:23know and we just won't tell anybody about it.

1:39:26So now the thing is the government and the military think that, because it can, basically

1:39:33the simulation continues, they think that David is a spy and that this is actually a

1:39:38real thing that is happening.

1:39:40They pick him up at a 7-Eleven with the guys with the--

1:39:43I love that scene.

1:39:44There's the guys with the earpieces in them

1:39:45in the parking lot.

1:39:46And he's just got his big gulp, or his-- yeah, his big gulp.

1:39:50And he's walking through the parking lot of the 7-Eleven.

1:39:52And there's a mysterious guy behind him with an earpiece.

1:39:56And then a big black car drives up.

1:39:57And a guy gets out, and he turns the other way.

1:39:59And another thing drives up.

1:40:01And he's nabbed.

1:40:02And they think that he's a terrorist, or a spy,

1:40:05or something.

1:40:07So he gets taken to Norad and McKittrick wants to talk to him.

1:40:11So he takes him on this little walk and he starts talking to him about computers

1:40:14and stuff like that and then takes him into his office because, you know,

1:40:17he's trying to be all nice.

1:40:18And then he takes him into his office and like starts interrogating him

1:40:21and like grilling him, that kind of thing about what's going on.

1:40:25And then there's some kind of emergency.

1:40:28So McKittrick leaves and then I don't know why David does this,

1:40:34starts playing around with the computer in McKittrick's office to talk to Joshua, as he

1:40:40calls it, the W.A.V.H. machine. And obviously the receptionist looking through the glass wall

1:40:46sees him typing on the computer and you know all hell breaks loose. The computer's kind of going

1:40:54into like it's really going down this route now and it's saying that when it gets to Defcon 1 it's

1:40:58gonna set off the nuclear warheads so they all come and grab David because they think

1:41:04that he's up to no good and they throw him away into this like infirmary area in which

1:41:11David MacGyver's an escape you know he kind of grabs this like a

1:41:18He rips the panel off the wall and figures out a way to unlock his because he's a good

1:41:23hacker he figures out a way to unlock the door electronically.

1:41:28And he sets off through the utility shafts and then ends up sneaking away with a tour

1:41:33group.

1:41:34Gets on a bus and escapes out of NORAD on a tour bus.

1:41:39He hitchhikes his way because also, oh, he has found an address, right?

1:41:45A classified address for another guy, a doctor.

1:41:49But he works out that this is probably going to be Dr. Falcon.

1:41:55Or Falcon.

1:41:56Professor Falcon.

1:41:57-Professor Faulkner. -Whatever you call him, fuck the fucker.

1:42:00So this, um, the NORAD section for me is the weakest part of the movie.

1:42:05-Right. -I think... I like Dabney Coleman in this, um, I think he's trying to make it like, uh,

1:42:13David, he and David are kindred spirits in a way, because they're the computer guys,

1:42:19they're surrounded by all these military guys. There's this really gross thing where the one guy

1:42:25is trying to pick up on the secretary that's like what is happening that it's like why

1:42:31i don't even know why that's in this movie other than that it's a distraction yeah he

1:42:34needs to be distracted by something the escape the escape is fine i mean i think the reason

1:42:39he types on mckittrick's keyboard is that he's desperately trying to stop joshua from

1:42:44continuing the game and he figures this is his opportunity to do it um and he's just

1:42:49trying like it's like a last-ditch attempt and it totally fails the the part that really

1:42:53kills me is this is the center of US defense and and it's the missile launch and there's

1:42:59a school tour where a bunch of kids from school have been brought in their school buses to

1:43:04take a tour of NORAD. I don't know if that's accurate or not it seems completely ridiculous

1:43:09to me that there is a school tour but it allows David to slip out with the school which is

1:43:14what I think why it's there and so he escapes from NORAD but I don't know why there's a

1:43:20a school tour there.

1:43:23So yeah, I don't know what a tour is. I feel like they're trying to do some sort of PR

1:43:30balancing because of the... I don't know, it's just stupid. But it was a good plot device

1:43:34to get in and out.

1:43:35Sure, I mean this kicks the plot into gear. It puts David in... David learns the scope

1:43:40of what's going on, realizes he can't stop it, that the people there won't really listen

1:43:44to him or believe him and he just figures that he has to get out and find Professor

1:43:50Falcon basically, that he's gotten information now about Professor Falcon, he used to work

1:43:55there, now McKittrick's got that job, you know, and this sets David on the--it's a tough

1:43:59part of the movie because this is all just to kick the plot into gear for the second

1:44:03half of the movie where they're going to go seek Falcon out and the Whopper is going to

1:44:08continue the countdown.

1:44:11And then basically he's, you know, David is a lefty, he's hiked his way out, and he gets

1:44:17Jennifer to book him a plane ticket.

1:44:19I love that he is a massively wanted man, but can get on a plane, right?

1:44:24Different times.

1:44:25This is, that is one of my favorite things about that section of the movie is he can

1:44:30show up somewhere, yeah, they don't know it's, he's wanted but they can book a ticket in

1:44:36his name and nobody knows it and he can just walk in and there's no security and it's just

1:44:43yeah very different time.

1:44:46So we basically are a situation where oh yes okay so this is something that I just realized

1:44:54by looking at my notes.

1:44:55Jennifer arrives she's there.

1:44:56Yeah.

1:44:57When she gets off the plane.

1:44:58Yeah she picks him up at the airport she's come down to wherever they are and they're

1:45:01gonna go find Professor Falcon.

1:45:07And then, oh, they find Falcon...

1:45:10Yeah, they go to his island.

1:45:13And one of my favorite scenes is they get to this island and they're like, "Where the

1:45:15hell are we in this island and what's that?"

1:45:18And there's a dinosaur that is flying.

1:45:19There's a pterodactyl flying around.

1:45:21Yeah.

1:45:22It's a great non-sequitur, right?

1:45:23That is one of my favorite non-sequiturs in any movie ever.

1:45:25It's like, "What am I seeing?

1:45:27Why is it?"

1:45:28it's a radio-controlled pterodactyl being piloted by the guy who's under an alias but

1:45:34that we realize is the actual mysterious Professor Falcon.

1:45:40And Dr. Falcon's crazy.

1:45:43I love this whole section. So he has been driven, if not mad, he is in such despair

1:45:51over the death of his wife and son that he's gone into hiding, he plays with his dinosaurs,

1:45:56And he has, you're right, he is kind of crazy, he has become obsessed with the dinosaurs

1:46:01and that they went extinct.

1:46:03And that his thoughts about his contribution to the military industrial complex and the

1:46:08nuclear arms race and all of that is inevitably going to lead to the destruction of humanity

1:46:17just as the dinosaurs were destroyed.

1:46:18And that we will become extinct and this is the dark part of the movie where he basically

1:46:23makes the argument that, you know, you guys are young and it's a shame that you'll die,

1:46:31but even if we extended this a little while, your kids would die, because we're all gonna

1:46:34die, we're all gonna kill ourselves, humanity doesn't deserve to live, I'm just gonna let--

1:46:38sure I could probably stop the countdown, but I'm not going to, because we don't deserve

1:46:43to live. Which is, he is in a very dark place. And this is the low point in the movie-- it's

1:46:49not a bad point, but it's the emotional low point-- is they leave his-- he's like, "You

1:46:53can stay here," because the last ferry has left the island that he's on, and he's like,

1:46:56"You can stay here overnight and sleep on the floor if you want," and they're like, "We're

1:46:59out of here," and they go for a walk, and they, um, and this is like, well, it's a very

1:47:04sweet scene where they're talking about, they feel like, resigned to the fact that they're

1:47:08going to die now, that the nuclear war is going to happen, Falcon won't stop it, they're

1:47:13stuck on this island, and so they had this sort of like, what would they do if they,

1:47:17you know, what were they going to do if they lived? She said she was going to be on a TV

1:47:20show with the people from her aerobics class, which is weird. And it's a sweet scene, because

1:47:26they are opening up to each other and feel like they're going to die, and then they start

1:47:29kissing which, you know, you feel like, "Hey, the world's going to end tomorrow, we've got

1:47:32to live for tonight," right? So that's all-- I like this whole little block of the movie

1:47:36that Falcon is so dark and so weird, and the kids are the voice of reason. They're like,

1:47:41"No, we want to live!" And he's like, "No, we're all going to die!" It's a real thematic

1:47:45shift, but I really love it. And I love how dark and twisted Falcon is at this point.

1:47:51He's not menacing except through inaction. He's written humanity off, and they're trying

1:47:57to make him believe it and he won't believe it.

1:47:59However, when they kiss, something happens. When they kiss, something seems to happen

1:48:06to the plot of the movie in that it just starts to tear into pieces. So, a helicopter arrives

1:48:14and chases them for way too long.

1:48:16- Yeah, yeah.

1:48:17So this is the flip side of the pterodactyl,

1:48:19which is they start to kiss

1:48:21and it's like the last night on Earth.

1:48:23And then black helicopters come to take them away

1:48:26back to NORAD because they've realized, I guess,

1:48:29that they are finding their way to Falcon

1:48:31and the government knows where Falcon is.

1:48:33And so they take them all back to NORAD.

1:48:35And it's essentially--

1:48:37- Okay, is that what you expect?

1:48:38'Cause I couldn't work out where the helicopter came from.

1:48:42Oh, I assume that they finally figured out that they were traveling, or they just realized

1:48:46McKittrick had been talking about Falcon and that David had been obsessed with Falcon and

1:48:51that they know where Falcon is, and some combination of those things. They went to Falcon, Falcon

1:48:57said, "Oh, they just left here," because they say, like, "Oh, Falcon sold us out," which

1:49:00is probably not quite it. And we don't know how long it's been. Did they just walk out

1:49:06the door, or had they been walking for an hour or something and talking?

1:49:09The thing that I don't get though is that the army guy, the military guy, seemed to

1:49:15be working with them rather than trying to take them.

1:49:19Yeah, it's weird. I'm unclear.

1:49:22Because I was like, where did he get this helicopter?

1:49:25This is the strange connective tissue here where I think basically what McKittrick has

1:49:29realized is that the computer is out of control. That they need Falcon, that Falcon is in play,

1:49:36the kids knew it, that the kids went and found him, and they're so desperate at this point,

1:49:40they're like, "Let's just bring them all back. Let's bring them all back and talk to them."

1:49:44And this is what the movie is trying to do. The movie wants to get all of its stars in

1:49:48one place on one set, which is that enormous NORAD set, so that they can have the end of

1:49:53the movie. And it's a great end of the movie, but this is the point where they're like in

1:49:57the screenplay, they're like, "Well..." And emotionally I love the whole island stuff with

1:50:02them, but there is that moment where they have to sweep everybody up and bring them

1:50:05to the next part of the movie and this is it. It's with the helicopter.

1:50:09And Falcon somehow, well they all arrive and he convinces the General.

1:50:14They're rushed in right and they get to go through those doors that are almost going

1:50:17to slam them. Yeah.

1:50:19But they get in just as they're closing the doors.

1:50:21Oh that actually makes sense what you said now about your theory for it because the lady

1:50:26is waiting for them. Yeah they're trying to get them in as the

1:50:29door, she's like you gotta hurry you gotta you gotta get in here now and they they rush

1:50:32them in there because they've realized they're going in nuclear war lockdown, which I always

1:50:36feel bad for the people who are wandering around outside the doors because it's like

1:50:39see you guys. You don't get to come into the vault. But they rush them in there and basically

1:50:45say, "Gah, what is happening? Fix it." You know, fix it.

1:50:50So at this moment they're like, they're counting down like the minutes to impact and Falcon

1:50:56somehow convinces the general to think and not follow the machine and like do you think

1:51:02this is really happening like an unprovoked attack that they would want to destroy it

1:51:06like he really asks him to take a gamble with himself right like yeah because the general

1:51:11believes this is happening like he genuinely believes this is happening as he should in

1:51:16this well he's responsible for this right like the idea is if I if I don't act here

1:51:21then I will have allowed my country to be annihilated.

1:51:24Um, yep, that's a strange thing that Falcon is able to convince him so

1:51:30quickly. Um, but I don't, I don't know, you know,

1:51:34like it's just a, it's an odd point for me. So the general

1:51:37calls off the attack, um, and they have this great scene with,

1:51:42uh, he is on the line with a bunch of different,

1:51:45uh, command bases that would be first to be hit

1:51:48and they confirm to each other that everything's okay and everybody starts to celebrate and

1:51:52everyone's going crazy and everyone's happy.

1:51:54But Dr. Falcon recognizes that Joshua is still running and it's trying to find the launch

1:52:00codes.

1:52:02So it has not stopped.

1:52:06Because I assume that the way the computer has seen it is they have attacked us, so now

1:52:11we must attack them, right?

1:52:13Because it's still playing the simulation.

1:52:15But in this simulation America strikes afterwards, that's the simulation that they're playing.

1:52:20Nobody has made the simulation happen yet, so the computer's still running through its

1:52:24sequence.

1:52:25There's this whole scenario where it's trying to find the launch codes, and whilst it's

1:52:29trying to find the launch codes, everybody then starts to freak out and there's a countdown

1:52:35as it's getting them one by one.

1:52:37And then everybody huddles around the machine.

1:52:44This is like that, you know, you've got to have the movie end this way, but it's weird.

1:52:48So like everyone's huddling around the machine and Dr. Falcon like clearly knows the answer,

1:52:52but wants David to do it himself, right?

1:52:55And he's like, "No, you do it."

1:52:56And it's like, and then he works out that Tic Tac Toe makes the machine freak out, right?

1:53:01So he starts playing games with Tic Tac Toe, it's taking too long and they need to get

1:53:06the machine to like either learn or to overload itself.

1:53:09And then he says, "Oh, doctor, can it play simulation?"

1:53:12It's like, "Yes, just enter zero.

1:53:13Like, why don't you just offer that information up?"

1:53:17And then the machine starts--

1:53:18He does have a remarkable lack of desire to move things along, lack of urgency.

1:53:24Yeah, there's no urgency at all.

1:53:25Professor Falcon.

1:53:26Especially when it comes to flying helicopters around.

1:53:28He will do that for a long time.

1:53:31The chat room says that they think that Falcon has second thoughts and goes and gets them

1:53:34in the helicopter and takes them away.

1:53:37Maybe.

1:53:38I'd never really thought that, but maybe that's it.

1:53:40Yeah, but that's it.

1:53:41But where did the helicopter come from?

1:53:43Well, Falcon has a helicopter in addition to a pterodactyl.

1:53:46Exactly!

1:53:47With a military personnel inside.

1:53:49That was my problem.

1:53:50I couldn't work out where it came from.

1:53:51Yeah, I assume that they sent somebody to talk to Falcon and then maybe it's his helicopter,

1:53:55maybe it's not.

1:53:56But I assume that they were at play there.

1:53:59The tic-tac-toe is set up because it's one of the games that it wants to play.

1:54:02And we've learned that Whopper, that Joshua is a learning machine.

1:54:06And so there's this suggestion, and it's clever, that's like, let's have him war game tic-tac-toe.

1:54:11Let's have him simulate tic-tac-toe."

1:54:13And what he'll realize is, with two intelligent players, you can't win.

1:54:17It's always a draw.

1:54:18It's always a cat's game.

1:54:20And that's your message of the movie, which is that in order to stop Joshua, you can't

1:54:25just tell it to stop.

1:54:26You have to teach it.

1:54:28And so they have at War Game all of the nuclear war scenarios, and all of them have no winner

1:54:35because everybody dies.

1:54:37And there's a great, it's not a montage because it's like this fast-forward computer simulation

1:54:42thing.

1:54:43And it's running through all of these scenarios.

1:54:44It's so great and they all have these crazy names, they all have these like scenario names

1:54:47of like, it starts here, it starts here, and they all end in winner, none, right?

1:54:52Everybody dies.

1:54:53Yeah, there is no winner.

1:54:54And then it's the own, so basically it then cuts out and the computer comes up and speaks.

1:55:00Obviously they have one of those talkie boxes there too.

1:55:03Yeah, it's using the same voice too.

1:55:05Same voice.

1:55:06says, you know, basically, it is discovered that the only winning move is not to play.

1:55:12Yeah, strange game. The only winning move is not to play. That's your message. The only

1:55:16way to win a nuclear war is to not have one. Everybody celebrates and the movie ends. Now,

1:55:24what should come next though, is David being arrested for causing this entire scenario.

1:55:30That is the next part. And maybe being extradited to Russia because they're having to deal with

1:55:35of this this is the other things all the ramifications because the Russians are

1:55:39getting like nervous because the Americans keep sending jets and stuff

1:55:43into the air there is a whole other movie which is not war games 2 as I've

1:55:49been told on Twitter yeah that you know that should exist which is what happens

1:55:52afterwards which is David being arrested and being thrown into prison forever but

1:55:57I did enjoy this movie again from that that there are some parts at the end

1:56:01which I think of plot problems, but overall this is very enjoyable and you can give me like, you know,

1:56:08Matthew Broderick in the 80s and 90s in any movie and I tend to love it, you know?

1:56:13Sure.

1:56:13I love Ferris Bueller. I wish I would never have seen Ferris Bueller so we could have done it

1:56:17as part of the show. But like, you know, very quickly what I love about Ferris Bueller,

1:56:22obviously not originally, is nothing happens in Ferris Bueller. That's what I love about it,

1:56:26right? That it is just a day.

1:56:28Accurate. It's just a day.

1:56:30and that's what I love about that movie. But anyway, War Games. I've really enjoyed War Games.

1:56:35- I feel like McKittrick and Falcon would go to bat for David and say, you know,

1:56:44"He caused this to happen, but in reality this was going to happen. The Whopper was a learning

1:56:50machine. This was going to happen. This was going to happen the moment that we made the decision to

1:56:54take the soldiers out of the silos and you know because that's part of the

1:56:59lesson here too is the the having having humans do this thing and that replacing

1:57:05them with a machine is a mistake but also it's because the humans have a

1:57:08moral sense of a sort and that's why the people refused to turn the keys in the

1:57:14silos so so you know it this is an anti-war movie it's also sort of an

1:57:19anti-technology movie, but sort of not, I think. But anyway, I feel like David would

1:57:25would probably, because he did, you know, help convince Professor Falcon and, you

1:57:30know, say and, you know, played some tic-tac-toe and saved the world, that

1:57:34they'll probably let him off with "we're gonna watch you, you know, no

1:57:40more modems, and, you know, and just go to college and do something respectable."

1:57:46or they, you know, or will hire you, but you have to, you know, but no more, no more modems

1:57:50in the meantime.

1:57:51>>Yeah. If they let him off, they definitely hired him.

1:57:54>>I think so. I imagine that's, see, that's the sequel that they should have made is,

1:57:59you know, it's 20 years later and David is now working as an analyst and discover something

1:58:05computery that is threatening the world. And that would have been an interesting way to

1:58:09do that, to do a sequel. Instead, they did a weird direct to video sequel, like years

1:58:13later that it has no connection and don't watch it it's not I was actually

1:58:17surprised when people say oh but don't watch the sequel it's like I don't even

1:58:20consider that sequel a sequel it's just a cash grab from from many many years

1:58:24later yeah it's a movie with the name war games yeah yeah that's that's it or

1:58:31whatever it's called the dead code so yeah I enjoyed that one it was another

1:58:38a great suggestion I think I liked it very much good because again I think

1:58:43there is clearly a theme that I am I am clearly a sucker for 80s movies of young

1:58:48love stories in them hmm that is clearly a thing that I like I like 80s romantic

1:58:53comedies even though this isn't a romantic comedy but it has the romantic

1:58:57like it has the romance on it. I love it's got the young young love at the time of the end of

1:59:03the world kind of thing and they bond by doing this crazy thing with computer and all of

1:59:08that. And it definitely inspired a whole generation of computer nerds with the whole talk of war

1:59:13dialing and, you know, Protovision, I have you now, and all of that kind of stuff too.

1:59:21So yeah, but I love that. I love that relationship that they have and it's a fun thing. And I

1:59:28love that scene where they talk about what they're not going to do because they're all

1:59:30going to die tomorrow?" And as somebody who lived through that era, let me tell you, you

1:59:34know, it didn't happen every day, but there were days where you would think, "Are we all

1:59:37going to die tomorrow?" Like literally the possibility that the human race would extinguish

1:59:42itself any time was floating around, you know, which is bizarre. And we don't feel that now,

1:59:50which is not that we aren't capable of doing it now, but it doesn't have that same feeling

1:59:54as it did in the early to mid-80s.

1:59:57ladies.

1:59:58We are running extremely long.

2:00:01Yes, we are.

2:00:02But I still want to talk about Inside Out, is that okay?

2:00:05Yeah, that's fine.

2:00:06We should do that.

2:00:07Before we do that though, I want to just thank our final sponsor for this week and that is

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2:02:50build it beautiful. So last night I went to see Disney Pixar, their latest movie

2:02:57Inside Out and I am about halfway through episode 254 of The Incomparable

2:03:05called You've Ruined Pizza which is great when you've seen it and I'm about halfway

2:03:10through that but I really loved this movie and I wanted to just share some of

2:03:15my thoughts with you because I think they're very I think they I come from a

2:03:19very different background to basically everybody on the panel and that I don't

2:03:25have kids and I know that Andy didn't but he seemed to also be coming at this

2:03:29from looking at it in that way as well like looking at it as a effect that

2:03:34parents can have on children as being one of the key themes of the movie which

2:03:38it definitely is and I could see that but that was not the way this movie made

2:03:43me feel. So I'm not a parent right so all that stuff with you know

2:03:50and it really I can see it there right because I could feel the emotion in it

2:03:53like the the parts where the like the mom and dad are saying to Riley about

2:03:57thank you for being so strong for us right you know you can you could see it

2:04:01at the time like oh that's a problem by the way massive spoilers for Inside Out

2:04:06and we're not really gonna go for the plot I just had some feelings that I

2:04:08went to get out so I hope that you've seen it but basically it seemed that a

2:04:14lot of the discussion that I've heard on the on the great episode of the

2:04:17incomparable so far is about this effect that parents have on kids and how it can

2:04:22be to watch children grow and for like the emotions to form but for me this

2:04:27felt like a very interesting take on mental health that was kind of the way

2:04:35that I saw this movie and the way that I was watching it because it was kind of

2:04:40like explaining to me as well and the way that it made me feel was to kind of

2:04:48be like to say you can balance things like it's okay that all of these

2:04:54emotions exist and at certain times different emotions will drive you but

2:05:01it's cool because that's just what's gonna happen and it was very interesting

2:05:05to me because it was it was I thought it was a really positive message for mental

2:05:09health to be like these are the five elements that we have in our minds and

2:05:13no one person is all of them you know except for the bus driver but you know

2:05:19but we have all of these different elements that make up our personality

2:05:22and it's totally okay that at certain points they're gonna drive and what it

2:05:28ended up showing was ones that you think are really bad like sadness actually can

2:05:33be incredibly important to your life right and the way that that can can run

2:05:37and you know you see it and I noticed it at the time when they showed that the

2:05:41mum the mother was being controlled by sadness. Sadness was in the middle of her

2:05:46control desk right showing for her and like the dad was anger right like

2:05:50they're that they have these guiding emotions in that Riley had the daughter

2:05:54had joy but they can change and they can grow and they adapt and I also felt

2:06:02about like the journey that joy and sadness go on so like they get ejected

2:06:07out of headquarters genius right stuff like that headquarters very clever like

2:06:12trainer thought oh yeah those Pixar people are just they really are so smart

2:06:18the way they think of those little things and the journey that they go on

2:06:24together and watching how everything gets broken down and how they have to go

2:06:29through it together and to work out that actually they can coexist and why that's

2:06:33beneficial. I kind of saw that as like every kid has that happen in their

2:06:38brains right like that joy and sadness always get lost together for every child

2:06:44like it wasn't a this is what I took from anyway it wasn't a thing that just

2:06:49happened to Riley like there is a thing in which all kids go through right they

2:06:54go through that period or that time where joy and sadness or whatever are

2:07:00not with them anymore and they're driven by anger for example because there are

2:07:04these other emotions these other like strong emotions that they have of having

2:07:08that adventure where they can learn to get back together and rebuild their

2:07:13personality and the whole idea of the personality is getting broken down and

2:07:17new ones being grown I imagine like the way that I look at that is that happens

2:07:22to all of us multiple times in our lives and that different traumas break down our personalities

2:07:29and allow them to grow again.

2:07:30Like I think of like breakups in relationships.

2:07:33They break it down again.

2:07:35You have that relationship island smashed to pieces and then when you meet somebody

2:07:40new it grows and it grows differently because this person's different and you grow into

2:07:46a relationship yourself and it enables you as a whole to change and those kind of big

2:07:51moments in our lives, smash those islands down, and enable us to rebuild them a bit.

2:07:56So that's my overall feeling about Inside Out.

2:07:59>> Yeah, I think it's funny about the parents.

2:08:03I think some of that is about, as a parent, you're thinking, this is a movie about the

2:08:06emotional development of a child.

2:08:08And so when you've got children, you start to think about their emotional development

2:08:12as a child more than about your own emotional development, especially as a child and becoming

2:08:17an adult.

2:08:18I, so I think that's one of the reasons that, uh, you know, as parents, we kind

2:08:24of took that point of view, I think you're right.

2:08:25I think one of them, the messages of the film is definitely the idea that, um,

2:08:31the idea that if you're thinking that the only way for you to be a normal person or

2:08:37a healthy person is that you are happy all the time, that you are setting

2:08:44unrealistic, um, expectations for yourself.

2:08:48and that life is more complicated and people are more complicated than that,

2:08:53and that some of the richness in life is things that we think of as negative,

2:08:58and that that's all a part of us too.

2:09:00And I think you're right, it's a message about mental health and a healthy attitude toward life,

2:09:07that it's all part of the whole, and that if you decide to categorize it as this is the good part and this is the bad part,

2:09:17then you're going to be unhappy or unhealthy because you have an unrealistic expectation for life.

2:09:27It can never be fulfilled and that in fact you wouldn't want a life that was nothing but this.

2:09:32Because if there are no highs and lows, then everything is just flat.

2:09:37And ultimately that's the message of the movie, right?

2:09:41Is that joy and sadness together create,

2:09:45you know, to use nerdy terms,

2:09:47create this kind of dynamic range.

2:09:49Like it's better that the memories are bittersweet

2:09:53and not just all joyful or all sad,

2:09:56that it's this combination, which again,

2:09:59I think that's why it's about a young girl,

2:10:01is that she's going through this transformation

2:10:06leads to adults that hopefully, you know, in the adult mind, you have a more nuanced

2:10:12set of feelings that are all working together and integrated more. But as a child, you know,

2:10:18you don't start out that way. And so we're seeing her understand about mixed emotions

2:10:24and about, you know, feeling bittersweet feelings about things. And it's really interesting.

2:10:29Also Bing Bong is in it. And any parent will tell you that the moment that the imaginary

2:10:34friend comes on screen you think, "Oh no, something bad is going to happen to Bing Bong,"

2:10:40because imaginary friends don't last. It's a beautiful thing, but then they fade away

2:10:44and they're gone. And again, as a parent, you look at this and you think, "This is also

2:10:48a story about all of these things that you saw in your children when they were little,

2:10:52that then eventually they all went away because they grew up." So that's another reason that

2:10:58you view that that way as a parent, I think.

2:11:01Yeah, I didn't have that crushing sense of dread when Bing Bong came on the screen.

2:11:07Oh yeah.

2:11:08I was at the moment like, "Oh no, Bing Bong."

2:11:11Because how many grown-ups do you know who have imaginary friends?

2:11:17It's like, "He's doomed, he's doomed."

2:11:18And he's already been filed away, he's lurking in the background, right?

2:11:23So yeah, it's a good movie.

2:11:25It's a really good movie and there's a lot of depth to it.

2:11:27will be great, you know, there will be books written about the meaning and metaphor in

2:11:35Inside Out, I think.

2:11:36>> I cried a lot, Jason.

2:11:39>> Wow.

2:11:40It's a great work of art, and Pixar is good at making people cry, too.

2:11:44But it's a really fascinating piece of art.

2:11:48>> I have to say that the correlation between time of Pixar movies, you know, like overtime

2:11:56as more and more movies have come out and crying has there has been an increase in the

2:12:01amount that they make you cry.

2:12:03Yeah they've really I mean they've been making people cry since Toy Story 2 I would say but

2:12:09lately they're there are they definitely are very good at it and they know it.

2:12:12There's like the whole there's like a whole half hour towards the end of the movie where

2:12:15I'm crying every three minutes.

2:12:17Like I'm not like when I say crying as well as I say this like a bunch I don't mean like

2:12:21tears running down my face but like I'm choked up and there are tears in my eyes I kind of

2:12:26consider that as crying because it's like you may as well have done that to

2:12:29me now because I'm on the edge you know you've effectively got me to the edge

2:12:33so I will call that crying. I saw a link today that they're gonna be making a

2:12:41little like an inside-out kind of direct to DVD type thing as an extra on the on

2:12:47the movie and the blu-ray which is cool it's called Riley's first date so I'm

2:12:52happy about that, that there'll be more kind of stuff, which is great. I hope to see that.

2:12:57But I wanted to end this show today by asking you, what emotions do you think drive you?

2:13:05Because we have the mom is driven by sadness, and the dad is driven by anger, and Riley

2:13:11tends to be driven by joy. What emotions drive Jason Snell?

2:13:16I can't answer this question. I love that you want to end on this, and I have no answer

2:13:21for you because I feel like I'm a pretty integrated person and I have all of those emotions.

2:13:25Well I can answer for myself then I think.

2:13:27Alright.

2:13:28I think that I tend to be driven with a mix of fear and joy.

2:13:32I think that they are like my overriding emotions.

2:13:34I'm either happy or I am scared of something.

2:13:38That tends to, because you know I can be a person, I suffer from anxiety, not in a bad

2:13:42way, but like I get really anxious about things.

2:13:46Anybody that listens to analog will know that about me by now.

2:13:49I'm a warrior and I think that I have that combination of being driven by happiness,

2:13:54but also by fear. Like they are in the driving seat for me, I think.

2:13:59If I had to answer, I would probably give the same answer as that, which is a lot of

2:14:04what I do is pursuing things that I want to do them because I feel joy in doing them and

2:14:11that's definitely a part of it. And then sure, fear is a motivator at times and you need

2:14:16to realize when it's unhealthy and when it's healthy, because again, with something we

2:14:22associate as a negative emotion, some fear is good. Fears can spring from, you know,

2:14:28an alert system that this is something you need to worry about, and other times it's

2:14:33bad because it's motivating you to make bad decisions or not make decisions when you need

2:14:39to. So I think that's true, but like I said, I feel like ultimately every time I think

2:14:44about this I think I've got all of them at the they're all poking at the control panel

2:14:49they've all got very nice seats around the control panel.

2:14:55If you want to find the show notes for this week's episode head on over to relay.fm/upgrade/50

2:15:02if you'd like to find us online there's a couple of ways you can do that you can find

2:15:05Jason is @jsnell on twitter he hosts clockwise and lift off on relay.fm you should check

2:15:13both out as well as a whole other host of shows on the incomparable at the

2:15:17incomparable calm and also Jason writes over at six colors calm and I am I Myke

2:15:23I am Y ke on Twitter and you can find me and many other shows that we do here

2:15:27over at relay dot F and you're gunning for me now Snell three shows on relay

2:15:34now yeah well you know fortnightly it's like half a show every 14 nights and if

2:15:41If you would like to support our sponsors, that would mean a lot to us.

2:15:45You can, I'd like to thank them again.

2:15:47Squarespace, Smile, Igloo, and Linda, they've been here to support this bumper episode of

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2:15:52But most of all, if you're at this point now, thank you so much for sticking with us.

2:15:56And we'll be back next week for another episode of Upgrade.

2:15:59Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

2:16:01Jason Snow - Goodbye, Myke Hurley.

2:16:03[MUSIC]