44: Tap the Ellipses


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00:00:03   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode number 44.

00:00:12   Today's show is brought to you by lynda.com

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00:00:25   My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined as always

00:00:28   from an undisclosed Californian location by Mr. Jason Snow.

00:00:32   - Yes, I'm in a different undisclosed California location.

00:00:35   Hello from sunny and warm Southern California, Myke.

00:00:39   - How is it now?

00:00:40   - Even when it's foggy here, it's warm,

00:00:44   which it puts it one up on the Bay Area

00:00:46   where when it's foggy, it is not warm.

00:00:48   Here when it's foggy, it's actually warm.

00:00:50   So it's been nice.

00:00:51   We were in, my wife and I went down to San Diego

00:00:54   for a couple of days.

00:00:55   It's sort of, it's the week before Comic-Con,

00:00:57   So they're putting up all the Comic-Con banners and things, but I'd always dreamed all the

00:01:00   times I'd gone to Comic-Con.

00:01:01   I'd been to Comic-Con in San Diego like three out of the last five years, something like

00:01:06   that.

00:01:09   I always, I would walk around with just the throngs of people and trying to get from one

00:01:13   place to another and think, "This is really nice.

00:01:15   If there were less people here, and if my wife was with me, this would make a nice vacation."

00:01:21   And finally I put my dream into reality and we went down for a couple of days this week

00:01:26   and just were in San Diego without the kids and left the kids with grandma and grandpa

00:01:30   and had a really nice time so that was like a little mini summer vacation and San Diego

00:01:35   is beautiful and it is even more beautiful when there are not thousands of people surrounding

00:01:39   you at Comic Con so yeah that was nice and now I'm back in greater LA area and we're

00:01:45   headed back home after this program in fact we will be heading home.

00:01:49   You're not going to Comic Con?

00:01:51   No I'm not going to Comic Con this year.

00:01:53   You know, it is huge.

00:01:55   It is too big.

00:01:57   And although I can glean some things from it, I decided, well first off, you have to

00:02:01   re-qualify every couple of years for a press pass, and I'm not entirely sure I would have

00:02:05   gotten one this year, and when you qualify it was like right in the wake of me leaving

00:02:09   Macworld and I had this sort of like, you know, do I want to bother?

00:02:12   And I just decided after last year that I didn't want to go this year, it was too crazy,

00:02:18   and I didn't get enough out of it.

00:02:19   I started going honestly because of the iPad, because comics and the iPad seemed like a

00:02:25   natural fit, and so when Apple, the first year that Apple came out with the iPad, 2010,

00:02:31   I went to Comic Con, talked to the Comixology people, talked to the iVerse people, talked

00:02:35   to a bunch of publishers, went to a bunch of sessions, and it was a moment in time when

00:02:40   the comics industry was really trying to figure out, how do you use these devices to create

00:02:44   comics, how do you use these devices for people to read comics, can you, you know, what does

00:02:47   do for traditional comic book sellers that people are getting these things digitally.

00:02:51   It was a really interesting time. Last year when I went I feel like it's just part of

00:02:55   the culture now.

00:02:56   It's settled.

00:02:57   Yeah, yeah. People have figured it out. They've figured out yes it is good. And you can make

00:03:02   comics with these devices and you can read them and people buy them digitally and the

00:03:07   comic book stores are still doing okay. The ones that have survived have survived for

00:03:10   other reasons and it's fine.

00:03:12   Yep, and Amazon have tied that market all up with a nice little bow.

00:03:16   Yeah, well they have. I actually did a piece on Six Colors a couple weeks ago because they

00:03:19   did an app update and I got to talk to their, actually I talked to their CEO David Steinberger

00:03:24   who's the CEO of Comixology and he's basically the head of comic books for Amazon too. So

00:03:29   I think they've got some big plans to bring some of their good comic technology over to

00:03:34   the Kindle app at some point. They haven't announced anything and they haven't told me

00:03:37   anything secretly either. It's just speculation but it seems like it makes sense because the

00:03:42   the Kindle stuff isn't as good as the Comixology stuff is in terms of a reading experience.

00:03:47   But anyway while I was talking to him about their app update he mentioned that he had

00:03:51   been listening to our podcast at one point which was pretty fun. So if he's out there,

00:03:57   hello David Steinberger of Comixology. But yeah it's sort of settled now. So for me I

00:04:03   never wanted to wait in line for five hours to see people far away on a panel for forty

00:04:09   it's... and so, I found interesting panels to go to, but it was an interesting people

00:04:15   to talk to, but it was a lot less appealing than it was right when this was a real question

00:04:20   about how people were going to react to it. And it was, you know, I was coming to write

00:04:24   about things, not just to wander around, and that plus being independent, I had to make

00:04:30   some decisions about it, and I thought, "Eh, it's not for me. Maybe I'll do it again,"

00:04:34   Although the size, it's so unwieldy that it's actually kind of difficult to go to for that.

00:04:39   But it does, you know, it was fun.

00:04:42   And San Diego's beautiful.

00:04:43   So I was happy to go to San Diego even though I did it pre-Comic-Con this year.

00:04:48   I always thought I would like to go, but over time my desire has gone away.

00:04:54   You know, it's fun, but it's a spectacle and it's just, I think it's oversized.

00:05:01   That's why, because it just looks too unwieldy.

00:05:03   Yeah, the New York, I've heard good things about the New York Comic Con, which is also

00:05:07   huge.

00:05:08   It's a similar size.

00:05:10   I think the difference is there's a little less...

00:05:12   See, at San Diego Comic Con, it's not, they say it's celebrating the popular arts, and

00:05:17   there's some truth to that.

00:05:18   I mean, a lot of what's there is movies and TV shows doing promotion.

00:05:22   It's not just comics anymore.

00:05:24   It's movies, TV shows, video games, lots of other stuff.

00:05:26   It's a pop culture convention, basically.

00:05:28   And it's kind of an overstuffed bag now.

00:05:32   So maybe something like, maybe you should go to the New York Comic Con or something.

00:05:36   I'm sure there's a really cool equivalent of that in London somewhere.

00:05:39   There is.

00:05:40   And I think the smaller scale might actually benefit that event to not have the insanity

00:05:45   of the large scale.

00:05:46   Yeah, there is a London Comic Con.

00:05:48   I've just not been, I keep missing it.

00:05:50   It's one of those things, you know, like every year I'm like, "Oh, I'll go to that."

00:05:53   And then it just, I just miss it.

00:05:56   Every single time I miss it.

00:05:58   But it looks so fun.

00:05:59   October so maybe I'll maybe I should just get tickets and actually go this time

00:06:03   Yeah, yeah, it's it's fun. I mean I I went to a couple conventions when I was a kid and

00:06:09   And then only in the last few years have I been to more sci-fi and comic conventions, and they're kind of fun

00:06:16   They're not I wouldn't say they're like absolutely my bag. Actually. My favorite thing about them is meeting meeting interesting people

00:06:21   Not waiting in lines and not big crowds. Those are not my favorite things

00:06:27   But, I mean, the reason I go, the number one reason I go to the Doctor Who convention in

00:06:30   LA every year now is because I know like 15 people who go to it every year and it's my

00:06:35   chance to see them.

00:06:37   And you know, I honestly don't even need a ticket to the event because I could just stand

00:06:42   in the lobby and have a good time talking to the people I know, mostly podcasters actually.

00:06:47   So anyway, it's a fun little subculture for me to sort of dip in and out of, but I'm happy

00:06:55   to every year that I go I think why am I here and every year that I don't go now that I

00:07:00   since I went the first time the years that I haven't gone I look at it and I'm like oh

00:07:04   Comic Con I'm not there you know and I do feel a little bit of that like but I you know

00:07:09   I'm not there this year but after last year I was like I gotta take a year off at least.

00:07:17   Should we address some follow up? Yeah let's do some let's do some follow up. So interestingly

00:07:21   in the time that we, since last episode to this episode, we were talking about antitrust

00:07:28   and the ebook case came up and basically a couple of days ago the US Court of Appeals

00:07:36   upheld the 2013 decision that Apple was guilty of conspiring with publishers.

00:07:41   So basically Apple had an appeal which has now been shut down and they will have to pay

00:07:45   the $450 million fine.

00:07:48   So it kind of, I think, puts this to bed now.

00:07:50   Yeah, we got, when we were talking about this earlier, last week we got some feedback from

00:07:55   a few people who are like, very much in Apple's camp on this and said, "No, there's no proof

00:08:00   that there was, that Apple was involved in collusion and you should report the real story

00:08:06   and not just assume the worst of Apple and all that."

00:08:08   And my response was, "I believe that Steve Jobs and Apple got the publishers together

00:08:15   and banded them together to push back on Amazon."

00:08:18   I think quite validly and rightly, but that my understanding and my belief of what went

00:08:24   on, that's illegal collusion, and although they were, I think, doing it, not for altruistic

00:08:32   reasons, but doing it to push back against another opponent, and it really was competition,

00:08:39   this court ruling makes it very clear that as far as the US court system is concerned,

00:08:43   Apple did this, it's settled.

00:08:45   The appeal is passed.

00:08:47   a done deal.

00:08:48   >> So you kind of just have to lean to that and be like well that's that then.

00:08:52   >> Yeah and I feel like Apple, I've said this before and you know it's always tricky when

00:08:57   you're talking about Steve Jobs because you know Steve Jobs, I think you just give it

00:09:02   as a given, it's like look Steve Jobs we all know all the great things about Steve Jobs

00:09:06   but one of the issues with Steve Jobs is he believed that sometimes there were things

00:09:12   he wanted to do that weren't legal, and he didn't care. That was part of his personality.

00:09:17   And you saw it in parking and handicap spots, and you saw it in making secret deals to not

00:09:25   hire employees from other tech companies, which is also illegal. And you saw it, I think,

00:09:31   in the e-books case, where he thought, and again, you can see the motivation of it, you

00:09:35   can totally understand why he would say that, which is, you know, we gotta break Amazon

00:09:39   here because they've got a stranglehold on this market. But what he did, I would say

00:09:46   and I think the courts have said, wasn't legal. Maybe it was the right thing to do from a

00:09:51   moral standpoint, but it was also collusion with the leaders of the publishing industry.

00:09:57   So I think that's a case where I would hope that we talk a lot about the new Apple. This

00:10:04   This is one of those cases where maybe the new Apple is less inclined to do the all-out

00:10:09   nuclear patent war with Samsung and stuff like this.

00:10:14   I feel that's one of those areas where Steve Jobs was just so in control of that company

00:10:18   that he would get mad about something or get his mindset on something and it didn't matter

00:10:22   if all of his advisors and his lawyers were saying "no, no, don't" that he would just

00:10:27   do it because that was him.

00:10:29   I think history has shown that Steve had a very much by any means necessary kind of...

00:10:38   Yeah, well he was a rebellious guy, right?

00:10:41   And sometimes I think yes, he was...

00:10:45   I was gonna say shoot first, ask questions later, but that's not entirely right.

00:10:49   It's a...

00:10:50   Whatever it takes.

00:10:51   It's ask forgiveness, not permission, right?

00:10:55   in the pirate flag, even as a huge company, I think that's where he lost some perspective.

00:11:00   Where I believe that he really believed that the non-compete stuff, where they agreed not

00:11:06   to hire away other people from other tech companies and the other tech companies agreed

00:11:10   the same, which is illegal. I think he really did believe that that was doing the best thing

00:11:15   for Apple and didn't think of the fact that he was preventing people from furthering their

00:11:21   careers and stifling their salaries. I don't think he thought that but you know the fact

00:11:26   is I think that's what happened. I think that he just didn't have that perspective because

00:11:31   he was focused on what he was focused on and you know I just think that's that's who he

00:11:35   was. He was he was focused on very particular things and didn't really care if somebody

00:11:42   got in his way and would say that's just bureaucracy or that's just you're just worried about us

00:11:46   getting sued but you know I don't care this is the right thing to do and you know I think

00:11:50   That's all the Samsung patent stuff and the Android patent stuff in general I think is

00:11:55   the same thing.

00:11:56   It's the "let's go nuclear on them" and everybody's like "no no no no no, it's not going to be

00:12:01   worth it, we're not going to win, what's it going to accomplish?"

00:12:03   And I think there was just some anger there.

00:12:05   Was it justified anger?

00:12:06   Again, yes, I think it was justified, but not pragmatic.

00:12:11   Or legal.

00:12:13   Or in the end, yes, or actually something, in the case of the ebook thing, or something

00:12:19   that was legal.

00:12:20   Even though they felt like and may have been in the right in terms of trying to increase

00:12:25   competition in that.

00:12:27   It was actually the rare case, right, I mean super rare case of industry collusion increasing

00:12:33   competition but that's what it was.

00:12:38   In regards to the Apple Music and Taylor Swift and anti-competitive antitrust stuff, Stephen

00:12:46   Hackett, co-host of Connected and co-founder of Relay FM who just also today announced

00:12:52   that he has gone independent. He is now going to be a full-time writer and podcaster and

00:12:58   I'm going to include a link in the show notes to Stephen's blog post. You can go check that

00:13:01   out. He's selling t-shirts to help give him that first kick into the independent world.

00:13:07   Please go help him out. Stephen has joined us in the realm of fun employment, right?

00:13:11   He has indeed. You and me and Stephen and David Sparks.

00:13:16   in the dream. So go help Steven out. Go buy a t-shirt. It's a big thing. It's a big thing

00:13:22   for Relay. We now both are putting, I put all my time into it, Steven's putting a majority

00:13:27   of his time into it. It's exciting for us. It's less than a year. One year in August.

00:13:33   So anyway, so he pointed out that one angle that we potentially missed is that by working

00:13:41   with the record labels and that kind of thing that we may have missed that Apple

00:13:45   Music might be pushed by the record labels to consumers and that could be

00:13:50   part of the anti-competitive stuff that we missed. But you know which I

00:13:54   understand but my feeling about this is while I get that idea of working with

00:13:59   the labels would potentially you know push them on consumers. My point that

00:14:04   Taylor Swift writing the letter means it's all okay from a legal perspective. I

00:14:09   I think that that still stands.

00:14:10   Like it doesn't make any sense.

00:14:11   The Department of Justice is not gonna be,

00:14:13   I still don't think it's gonna be like,

00:14:15   oh, Taylor Swift wrote that letter?

00:14:16   Well of course you can, you know,

00:14:19   of course you can do whatever you want.

00:14:20   It doesn't make any sense to me still.

00:14:23   - I agree.

00:14:23   I think, I mean my take on that was,

00:14:26   and I think I said this last week,

00:14:27   is that the fear there is that what there was

00:14:30   is a secret backroom deal like with the eBooks thing

00:14:32   where Apple's like, here's our plan

00:14:35   for how we get rid of Spotify free tier.

00:14:38   is we, you know, colluding to get rid of the idea of a free tier because from all accounts

00:14:44   the music industry doesn't like the free tier and Apple isn't offering a free tier but it

00:14:50   could also be that Apple is coming as a new party here and there and the music industry

00:14:54   is saying look we don't want a free tier and Apple's like great we'll do that you know

00:14:59   just get on your good side and you know I think it'll be I think it'll be fine.

00:15:03   It just funs them. It doesn't make sense to me the idea of like if they paid free trial it would make the music labels

00:15:11   promote Apple music more

00:15:14   Because they're doing something that a competition isn't doing

00:15:16   So, you know therefore it's illegal but Taylor Swift said please pay and they do and then the Department of Justice is like, alright

00:15:25   It's not legal anymore. That still stands for me. It doesn't make any sense.

00:15:28   But your honor there was a blog post

00:15:30   - I do, sir, have you heard the term open letter?

00:15:34   Like it's not, it's just not gonna happen.

00:15:37   Let's move on though.

00:15:37   Alexander pointed out to me a potential solution

00:15:40   for my woes of the force touch track pad.

00:15:43   I was mentioning how the click and drag

00:15:46   just doesn't work for me and in something like Logic,

00:15:48   I cannot work in that scenario.

00:15:50   And he mentioned that there is the ability

00:15:53   to do a three finger drag motion movement.

00:15:56   I don't know if this works in Logic.

00:16:00   I think it works in any windowed thing.

00:16:04   I'm not sure whether it works.

00:16:06   I think it's to drag windows around though,

00:16:08   not to drag objects around.

00:16:10   - That's what I'd assume too.

00:16:12   So I mean, basically, even if there are solutions

00:16:17   which are like more fingers on the track pad,

00:16:19   like I don't, my issue with the Force Touch track pad

00:16:23   is that I just don't think that the best solution

00:16:27   is to take the physical click away from laptops

00:16:30   that have the space to keep it.

00:16:32   Like so, you know, updating the 15 inch

00:16:34   with removing the clickable trackpad,

00:16:36   changing nothing about the body design,

00:16:39   and putting it in there.

00:16:39   I just don't think that it's the right option

00:16:41   because for me, whenever I click down on my trackpad,

00:16:46   a click is registered, right?

00:16:47   That is a given because it is a physical switch

00:16:49   and it works.

00:16:50   I can't think of any time where I've ever clicked

00:16:52   and it hasn't worked.

00:16:54   But it was happening enough for me

00:16:55   on the Force Touch trackpad

00:16:56   where it makes me question if it's worth it doing.

00:16:59   And I just wonder, is it possible,

00:17:03   and I'm sure that they could find a way

00:17:05   to make a hybrid version which has a real click,

00:17:08   but also the pressure sensitivity

00:17:09   so they can continue doing the force touch APIs

00:17:11   that they wanna do.

00:17:12   'Cause that can, to me, is the only reason

00:17:14   that you would put it in something like the 15 inches

00:17:16   because you wanna push these force touch APIs, right?

00:17:18   So you can have bigger clicks.

00:17:20   What if I clicked down and then kept pushing

00:17:22   and then a force touch click happened, right?

00:17:25   give me that. Don't take away the real click if it doesn't need to be. It just doesn't

00:17:30   make sense to me because you are taking something that is 100% reliable and making it not so.

00:17:36   And that is a very peculiar thing for me. It's a shame because the first time I tried

00:17:40   to force touch I was blown away by it. And when I'm just using it, just browsing around

00:17:44   the web, it is kind of crazy to me because it does feel like a real click. But it's not

00:17:48   one. And at times when I really need it, like when I'm editing a podcast, I need complete

00:17:53   precision and anything that gets in my way during that process is not something that

00:17:57   I want to be working with and I find it, I found it very frustrating to use in those

00:18:01   scenarios.

00:18:02   Yeah, I don't know if there can be a hybrid version or not based on, because if you're

00:18:06   trying to do pressure sensitivity but you've got a diving board kind of thing, I think

00:18:10   that's, I think it would be much more complicated than just taking it out.

00:18:13   I would, I think my response would be, I wonder if they can make it better than it is in this

00:18:21   first generation because my feeling is not I don't I haven't been bothered by

00:18:25   it like you have but I kind of like it but the one problem I have with it is I

00:18:30   feel like there's not enough feedback I feel like the click and I think Marco

00:18:34   talked about this when he was complaining about the MacBook one as

00:18:38   Marco would call it it doesn't it's not clicky enough that's my feeling about it

00:18:43   is and when I click it I want it to be more I want more feedback and for

00:18:48   whatever reason the maximum feedback it'll give you still doesn't quite feel

00:18:53   it still feels like not a real click and so I wonder if they could just you know

00:18:58   if if what we're really saying here is this is not a solved problem and the

00:19:04   next generation of force touch trackpads needs to be better because this is not

00:19:10   quite good enough for for you to use and you know more fee and I definitely feel

00:19:17   the desire for some more feedback.

00:19:20   That said, I also, I was noticing, I use a trackpad, a Magic Trackpad at my desk at home,

00:19:28   and I have contorted my hand, I actually hurt my wrist a little bit, I contorted my hand

00:19:34   into this weird position in order to use it because I've got my keyboard tray that I use,

00:19:38   has got these, I don't even know what they are, they're like strips of adhesive, I think

00:19:43   to put down like an arm rest or a wrist rest or something

00:19:47   that I don't use.

00:19:49   But I can't put, there's certain places

00:19:53   I can't put the track pad,

00:19:54   because the track pad needs to physically depress,

00:19:57   and if the legs are up, it doesn't click right.

00:20:00   And I had one of those moments where I thought,

00:20:02   well, this is one of the advantages of having

00:20:05   something like the Force Touch track pad,

00:20:07   if you had that as a magic track pad,

00:20:09   is it wouldn't need legs that depress.

00:20:14   It would just sense the pressure

00:20:17   and that would be good enough.

00:20:18   But, so maybe a next generation,

00:20:20   maybe Apple will listen to stories like yours

00:20:24   and say, "Oh, so what is the issue

00:20:27   "about how Myke uses logic

00:20:30   "that doesn't work with the force trudge

00:20:32   "and can we make that better?

00:20:33   "Can we emulate that better?

00:20:34   "Can we make the software better?

00:20:35   "Can we make the vibration motor

00:20:38   more, you know, I don't know, buzzier.

00:20:44   I don't know what the solution is, but maybe that's one way to approach this is.

00:20:49   It's not, it's a first try and it needs to be better.

00:20:54   It definitely does.

00:20:55   I hope that it will be and I'm sure that it will be.

00:20:57   It's just weird to me.

00:20:58   Looking at it now, it's really weird to me that they put it in the 15-inch without doing

00:21:01   anything else.

00:21:02   It wasn't needed, but they did it and it's sort of peculiar.

00:21:05   Well, I mean, they, very clearly Apple feels that the keyboard is a compromise and, you

00:21:13   know, every time I've talked to Apple about the keyboard on the MacBook One, they've said,

00:21:17   "Oh God, look at me, I'm calling the MacBook One Marco!"

00:21:20   It's easier, it is easier because it's just called the MacBook which doesn't really help.

00:21:24   Yeah, the adjective-less MacBook. Every time I talk to somebody from Apple about it, they're

00:21:28   like, "Look, we know that travel is a problem but we increased the, you know, keycaps and

00:21:34   all of that and we're trying to balance it out.

00:21:37   But I've not yet heard somebody at Apple just say, "Oh, it's better this way."

00:21:42   They all seem to admit it's different and it's not better, which for Apple, with any

00:21:47   new piece of technology they do, is a big admission.

00:21:50   It's not actually better, but what they're basically saying is, "But it's not worse because

00:21:55   of other reasons.

00:21:56   We've balanced out the bad and the good."

00:21:59   With the Force Touch trackpad, Apple very clearly thinks, "This is the future, this

00:22:02   is better, it does more stuff, it's more flexible, this is better. So Apple clearly thinks it's

00:22:09   better and that's why they put it in, the 15 and the 13, is they think this is just

00:22:13   better. And what I hear from people who don't like it is they're wrong, or at least for

00:22:18   some class of users they're wrong, it's not better, it needs to be better still because

00:22:23   for a lot of uses it feels like a regression. And again, I hope Apple's listening to that

00:22:30   not just sort of feeling like, "Well, we did that, let's move on to the next thing."

00:22:34   Moving on, in terms of moving on to the next thing, in our upgrade last week we mentioned

00:22:42   that Jim would like us to guess the sex of his baby girl who was, I think, was being

00:22:49   born at that moment.

00:22:52   In advance he wrote to us and said that on the Monday of our show, episode 43, that they

00:22:58   would be having a baby so I assume scheduled like a c-section or something

00:23:01   and he said what's the sex of the baby we don't know and we both declared that

00:23:06   it was a girl and we were right and we were right upgrade wins congratulations

00:23:11   to Jim and the whole and away family on their baby girl yeah absolutely the week

00:23:18   can we claim Jim's baby is the first upgrade baby as I'm concerned we have

00:23:24   just done that yes. Excellent, excellent. Baby upgrade! And the last thing I wanted

00:23:29   to follow out of we have a new show on Relay called Material and it is an

00:23:34   Android and Google focused show which has been created by Russell Ivanovich

00:23:39   Andy Anarko and Yasmeen Evgen who we welcome all three to the Relay family

00:23:43   Material has been created by the three of them in the idea that they want to

00:23:48   create a show about Google and its related products that can be listened to

00:23:52   by anyone. Like their idea is to try and create something that Apple fans will

00:23:57   love, that Windows fans will love, and that Google fans will love. So if you

00:24:00   enjoy this show I heartily recommend that you check out Material. They have a

00:24:05   great episode one and they also have a like a little episode zero, a kind of

00:24:10   like origin story type thing, you know, in case you want a little bit more about

00:24:13   your hosts. You should go and check it out. I really really enjoyed it and it is

00:24:17   a fantastic addition to our lineup at Relay FM that you should go and check

00:24:22   out where I know. Yeah I think the idea of having it be about Google, Google is such a major part of

00:24:27   I mean we talked about it here how we use so much of Google but also to have people who know about

00:24:31   Android and and have that perspective is good it adds to the diversity of the network which I think

00:24:37   is really nice. I know I was trying very hard to recruit Andy to do something at Relay and we got

00:24:45   Andy on this. Russell really interesting it's a great trio so I'm looking forward to it.

00:24:52   I think it's going to be a fun show.

00:24:55   show.

00:25:02   over

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00:27:07   as

00:27:29   so much linda.com for sponsoring this week's episode of Upgrade.

00:27:35   So Jason please tell me, you put a little topic in here, Safari is the new Internet

00:27:40   Explorer and I read a couple of articles about this and they've got a lot of things in here

00:27:44   that I don't really understand about web frameworks and stuff like that.

00:27:48   But what's going on here, I've seen a lot of people talking about this over the last

00:27:50   few days.

00:27:52   Yeah it was definitely a discussion that was had, this guy named Nolan Lawson who described

00:27:58   himself as an Android and web developer, and I think that is... he actually seems like

00:28:03   a really bright guy, he definitely comes from a particular perspective, and his perspectives

00:28:07   are not necessarily favorable to Apple, I would say, for a couple reasons. One, he doesn't

00:28:14   seem to be a particularly enthusiastic user of Apple's products, he's an Android developer,

00:28:19   and a web developer, and web developers have had an issue, you know, have had an on and

00:28:23   off relationship with Apple. We've been talking a lot about new Apple and old Apple, and this

00:28:31   is one of those cases where Apple's participation in standards bodies and discussion about where

00:28:37   web development standards are going, and you know, it's hot and cold, and it's frustrated

00:28:44   a lot of web developers. So Nolan Lawson wrote this piece where he said Safari is the new

00:28:49   Internet Explorer and he had gone to a conference and said all the developers are frustrated

00:28:54   because there are all these new web technologies that are standards that they've been trying

00:28:58   to push into all the different web browsers because once they're in all the web browsers

00:29:03   then everybody can use them and it's very difficult if something's only supported on

00:29:06   Chrome you know you have to do a fallback or something like that because it's not really

00:29:10   great practice to say sorry this only works on one browser. Generally they want to support

00:29:16   more, they want to support everything, and they've been frustrated by the lack of pace

00:29:22   in Safari development, in WebKit development really.

00:29:25   And I think, also I would say Nolan Lawson's approach is definitely mobile-centric, a lot

00:29:31   of his discussion, it was clear that he was referring to, when he was talking about Safari,

00:29:36   he was really talking about Safari and WebKit on iOS, I think that was his focus, he's not

00:29:42   so concerned about the Mac, he doesn't seem to be somebody who cares particularly about

00:29:45   that aspect of it, he was really talking about mobile. What struck me about it, and I wrote

00:29:49   a link on it, so I was one of the people who, and Rene Ritchie wrote a story at iMore about

00:29:53   it, I was one of the people who I think early on was, I had seen it, it actually floated

00:29:57   up on Nuzzle for me, because I follow a bunch of people who are on the, you know, are web

00:30:02   developers or in the web development and web standards world, and that's how it floated

00:30:06   up in front of me, and I thought, well that's a provocative headline, right? Safari is the

00:30:10   the new IE, and I read the story and what struck me about it was, one, I thought, well,

00:30:16   if Apple is really way behind on a bunch of core web technologies that other people are

00:30:20   building, that concerns me, because Apple should be, I think, generally trying to have

00:30:28   Safari not be this eye-rolling, weird browser.

00:30:31   I think that on general principles, it would be nice if Safari was considered by the web

00:30:39   development community, a modern browser, and not the next IE, right?

00:30:43   So on that level, just generally, I was like, "Well, this is troubling.

00:30:45   I don't know enough about this, but I sure hope that this isn't an accurate depiction."

00:30:49   And I would love to hear from somebody who's on the WebKit team and the Safari team at

00:30:53   Apple sort of talking about what their approach is to development, because one of his examples

00:30:58   is like there's a database format that's been around for quite a while now as a standard

00:31:03   Apple has sort of not implemented or implemented in a kind of partial way, and as a result,

00:31:11   you know, the database that they have to use in Safari is not particularly robust, and

00:31:17   it frustrates web developers that they have to do that. So on that level, you know, again,

00:31:22   not knowing about it, it's like, okay, red flag from web developers saying that Safari

00:31:26   is really bugging them, I wonder what Apple has to say about it. But the other thing that

00:31:30   struck me about it in reading that article was how Nolan Lawson doesn't really understand

00:31:36   Apple, and that just was clear to me in reading it. And that, you know, I got feedback, I

00:31:42   got, because some of my tweets got, and my link got passed around, and I started to get

00:31:48   feedback from people who were very clearly web developers or Android developers, people

00:31:52   outside the kind of Apple sphere, and you know, they basically took it as, "I can't

00:31:56   believe that you would argue that, you know, Apple shouldn't support web standards. You

00:32:02   know, it's like, okay, well that is a really reductive version of what I wrote, because

00:32:06   what I wrote is, it troubles me if Apple's not following web standards. But Nolan Lawson's

00:32:12   perspective in that first piece was very much not understanding anything about Apple. So

00:32:17   he, you know, it was hard not to look at some of the examples that he gave, which were for

00:32:21   initiatives, there are initiatives in the web development world that it will come as

00:32:26   no surprise to anybody are all about giving web developers access as if their apps were

00:32:34   native apps on mobile.

00:32:37   And essentially this is, hey we built up a lot of skills in web development and everybody's

00:32:41   excited about mobile apps, so we really like to be able to use our skills to write those.

00:32:46   So we've built a bunch of this, you know, we've had these standards and it comes, a

00:32:50   lot of it is supported by Chrome because Google and the Chrome team have really been pushing

00:32:55   this idea of websites as apps.

00:32:56   There's the Chrome app store which has not taken the world by storm but it's something

00:33:01   that Google has pushed in the past.

00:33:05   And you know, I totally understand if you're a web developer and you say how do I get,

00:33:08   you know, I want to build apps too.

00:33:10   I want to build mobile apps that we have access to the things that mobile apps do.

00:33:16   But my point was, what's Apple's motivation to support, and the answer that these people

00:33:25   give is, well it's a standard, it's a web standard, why would Apple not want to support

00:33:28   a standard?

00:33:29   But from Apple's perspective it's like, wait a second, you're trying to create your own

00:33:34   cross-platform app standard, and then shame us into supporting it.

00:33:41   And just why would Apple make that a priority?

00:33:45   And then I had some people say, "Well, what do you mean, 'Priority'?

00:33:47   Apple's got lots of money, they could do anything!"

00:33:48   It's like, well, okay, first off, Apple needs to choose what they want their priorities

00:33:52   to be like anyone else, and they're not gonna run out and hire a hundred new programmers

00:33:57   to do, so that they can, with a pile of money, so they can do anything.

00:34:01   They still have to make their choices with their resources, and they also have to make

00:34:04   strategic plans.

00:34:07   And if Apple believes that creating, letting web developers create web apps that run on

00:34:15   Android phones and run on iOS and they run the same and they look the same more or less

00:34:20   and they're not that good but they're okay.

00:34:23   You know if I'm somebody at Apple I think about that and I think what's going to happen

00:34:27   is that there's going to be this whole layer of apps that are no longer developed natively

00:34:32   because the businesses, the banks, whoever it is who don't want to spend the money on

00:34:40   native app development will just build a web app and it'll be okay.

00:34:44   And in the end what you're doing is sort of reducing iOS to a platform with some native

00:34:49   games and Apple's apps and some native apps but also a lot of really boring me too web

00:34:55   apps that are maybe not that attractive and not that fast.

00:35:01   and maybe some of them are good but a lot of them are not good. And why would Apple

00:35:06   do that? I was giving flashbacks to the early days of Java where people said, "Oh, Java's

00:35:12   gonna be great because it's gonna be everywhere and you're gonna be able to write it once

00:35:15   and run it everywhere." And you know, it didn't happen. In the end, all Java did is have terrible

00:35:20   apps that ran everywhere sometimes and that wasn't a good experience. Apple's really kind

00:35:26   gone in on the native app thing with great success.

00:35:31   I would also say that being beholden to a standards body to drive innovation forward

00:35:37   is as non-Apple as it gets.

00:35:40   Because Apple, when Apple rolls out its new APIs to its developers, Apple can make decisions

00:35:47   and say we're going to push the platform forward here and we're going to do this there and

00:35:50   we're going to be innovative in these ways and we're going to catch up with the competition

00:35:53   in these ways and go to it.

00:35:56   I have a hard time seeing how this vision of apps being developed using web technologies,

00:36:03   using web standards, allows Apple to differentiate their platform.

00:36:07   It turns Apple into a meet-to-platform, which if you're an Android and web developer, sounds

00:36:12   like the path forward, because that's obviously the right way to do it.

00:36:16   But if you're anybody who is at Apple, or understands Apple, or understands Apple's

00:36:21   focus on users, you look at that and say, "That sounds like a terrible idea.

00:36:25   Why would they ever do that?

00:36:26   And ultimately that's what struck me about the Safari is the new IE post is, one, I'm

00:36:32   interested to hear from Apple if they really are dragging their feet on things that they

00:36:36   probably should prioritize that will make the web better for users.

00:36:40   And two, that there seems to be this undercurrent in at least part of the web development community

00:36:47   that they really want to make mobile apps and are really mad at Apple because Apple's

00:36:50   like, "I'm not so sure that's a good idea."

00:36:53   Or that Apple's silent about it because when you look at what they're proposing, it's very

00:36:58   hard to see why Apple would think it was a good idea.

00:37:02   So part of what was written about here by Nolan is the way that he phrased the piece,

00:37:11   what it was focused around is he'd just finished and just come back from a conference in London

00:37:16   called the Edge Conference, which is about advancing the web and looking at future web

00:37:21   technologies.

00:37:22   And the reason it struck a chord with him is because nobody from Apple was there, but

00:37:25   basically everybody else had someone.

00:37:29   And so my thinking along these lines is, if you just boil it down to the most simple part,

00:37:37   if Apple does or is ignoring this stuff, is that not just what Microsoft did?

00:37:45   They just ignored web standards, they ignored future web technologies, and then it gave

00:37:51   us IE?

00:37:52   Is that not just what they did?

00:37:53   And then the reason that he makes this comparison is

00:37:57   it's what's installed on every Mac.

00:37:58   Macs are becoming more popular.

00:38:00   iOS devices have it.

00:38:03   And I wanna talk about browser choice in iOS in a minute.

00:38:06   And you're kind of majorly locked into that.

00:38:08   And that's only gaining with Safari View Controller

00:38:12   in iOS 9.

00:38:13   If Apple isn't advancing in certain areas,

00:38:17   does that not just make them like Microsoft?

00:38:20   - Yeah, well, and I think in Renee's piece,

00:38:24   Renee Ritchie's piece, you talked about this a little bit.

00:38:26   It depends on how you say, just like Microsoft,

00:38:28   what does that mean?

00:38:29   Just like Microsoft, just like IE, what does that mean?

00:38:32   If you cast it in broad terms, you can absolutely say,

00:38:35   look, Apple's behaving like Microsoft with IE.

00:38:38   But what I would say is they're supporting web standards

00:38:42   to improve the web experience so that people who are using

00:38:47   what we think of as the web have a good experience.

00:38:53   And I completely agree that, I mean, look, if the iOS experience with some web app is

00:38:59   really rotten because they have to use a second tier kind of database system to store files

00:39:05   because, and store data because the new standard that's really awesome just hasn't been implemented

00:39:11   by Apple because Apple doesn't care, and I'm not saying that's actually the case, but if

00:39:15   was the case, that would be a problem. And that's the first thing I said in my post about

00:39:18   it was, "Look, I don't know enough about this to say if all of these standards are good

00:39:23   and if they're being followed and if Apple's dragging their feet, but that is bad." And

00:39:26   that would be—you could argue that would be what Microsoft did, because Microsoft was

00:39:31   focused on its own things, and it was focused on, you know, use ActiveX plugins that aren't

00:39:39   even part of web technology. They're, you know, an x86 plug-in standard, so it was completely

00:39:46   tied to Windows and it was outside the realm of even web standards. But it seems to me

00:39:53   that what Apple's doing, the second part of the argument is, if we agree that following

00:39:59   open web standards and keeping modern in browsers is a good thing, and I think I do, at what

00:40:05   point do you draw the line if what the web standards bodies and the web developers want

00:40:11   to do is start to push into areas that you as a platform owner think are your business?

00:40:19   And that was what made me react to the first Nolan Lawson post, is it struck me as that

00:40:30   this stuff was crossing that line, and that they were really saying, "Look, we want to

00:40:35   use this open standards-based platform to write apps."

00:40:41   And there's an argument to be made that that could be great.

00:40:45   I've seen some very interesting people, including Lauren Brikter, say basically, "Oh, you can

00:40:53   do amazing things using the web technology.

00:40:56   you shouldn't assume that it will just lead to crappy web apps and there are also crappy

00:41:00   native apps. Well, okay, I'll say, yeah, I bet there could be good web apps and I know

00:41:05   that there are crappy native apps. But if you're the platform owner, if you're Apple,

00:41:09   especially, where you control the platform completely and your business is very different,

00:41:14   you can't afford to be the same, run the exact same apps as everybody else because your whole

00:41:21   business is being different than if we've signed on to "Yay, web development, web standards,

00:41:29   we love it, it's the side of good."

00:41:31   And then the web standards body says, "Oh, by the way, web standards now include your

00:41:34   development platform for apps.

00:41:36   We want equal access to that."

00:41:38   I think it is perfectly reasonable for Apple to say, "Mm-mm, mm-mm, no.

00:41:43   That we're not going to give you, because we don't think that's going to be a good experience."

00:41:47   And I got a sense of that a little bit.

00:41:49   So I feel like there's layers here and there's a bunch of different issues.

00:41:55   And in some of them I'm in full support.

00:41:57   I would like to hear, I would like the new Apple to come out of its shell even more and

00:42:03   participate in these conferences and say what it likes and doesn't like and say no, we don't

00:42:08   agree with this approach and let everybody know where Apple stands.

00:42:12   Because I got a sense from Nolan Lawson's post that there's a feeling in a lot of the

00:42:15   web development community that there's just a frustration that Apple doesn't participate

00:42:18   more. And, you know, that's been Apple's way in the past, but maybe this is an opportunity

00:42:23   for this new Apple to be a little more forceful and a little more communicative about what

00:42:28   Apple's view of the web and web standards is. Fully support that. But I also kind of

00:42:33   understand that some of what they're suggesting may be things that Apple looks at and goes,

00:42:38   "No, we're not, we don't think that's the right approach for the web." And if that makes

00:42:43   them like Microsoft in a broad sense than I guess they are, but I think that it's an

00:42:49   unfair comparison at that point.

00:42:52   Let's talk about iOS for a moment.

00:42:54   So I've seen people in regards to this piece, also talking about, and I've seen this linked

00:43:00   somewhere, an article about iOS browser choice written by Kenneth, I'm trying to find his

00:43:08   surname.

00:43:09   It's like Kenneth.io is the website.

00:43:12   Kenneth doesn't have his surname, Orkenberg I think maybe? Anyway, he wrote

00:43:17   and he's actually started a petition to Apple. His surname is Dot IO. Yeah, Mr. Dot IO. He

00:43:24   has written, he's actually started a petition and you know he's talking about

00:43:27   the idea that there are technologies in iOS which make Safari better than any

00:43:34   other browser and you obviously can't set browsers that you want like I use

00:43:39   Chrome, I can't set Chrome's the default, and you know there is a potential for

00:43:43   this kind of stuff to increase now that like Safari view controller is coming

00:43:48   around and basically what that does, but I don't know my very sort of basic

00:43:51   understanding of it, is it effectively every time you click on a link a Safari

00:43:55   page can slide in from the outside and there'll be a new back button in the

00:43:59   status bar which can take you back and basically it stops people from needing

00:44:02   to create their own in-app browsers, they can just leverage Safari. So what this

00:44:09   This further points out to me is so many developers are going to use this now and it further increases

00:44:15   Safari's advantage over something like Chrome.

00:44:18   It's all WebKit though.

00:44:19   I mean it doesn't change the fact that this is all being rendered with WebKit.

00:44:22   It just means that it's more clearly sort of in-app Safari instead of a window running

00:44:29   the WebKit browser.

00:44:31   But they're all running though.

00:44:33   Every single thing is in WebKit in iOS.

00:44:36   Apple won't allow anything else basically.

00:44:38   But there are features of Chrome that I like and one of the things that I really like is

00:44:43   that Chrome fully embraced the callback URL.

00:44:48   But that's effectively all Safari View Controller is allowing you to do.

00:44:51   You can go back to where you were.

00:44:53   So I see a world where more and more developers may not even bother adding Chrome support

00:44:59   anymore.

00:45:00   Because many, I'd say, pro apps or productivity apps or very nerdy apps allow for the ability

00:45:07   to open a link into Chrome for that reason and I use that and I'm very happy

00:45:11   with that but I see this kind of stuff I would see a world where this is just

00:45:15   gonna decrease because it'd be like why would you even bother because you get

00:45:18   the full powerful Safari of all the great stuff that has that has built in

00:45:22   that other apps can't take advantage of and it just concerns me Jason because I

00:45:28   am a Chrome user that is the browser that I choose and I see a world where

00:45:33   it's just gonna be less and less advantageous to be using it on iOS.

00:45:42   So it is, this is a difficult thing to pick apart because is what we're seeing

00:45:50   support for web standards or is it an astroturfing campaign by people who like

00:45:57   Chrome and want Google, who is an active participant in web standards, and Chrome to have more

00:46:06   access to iOS.

00:46:08   And you know, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but when I see this Kenneth post and a link

00:46:14   to Jake from the Chrome team who says, "Hey, if Apple are throttling back their web platform

00:46:19   work on Safari..."

00:46:20   If, I guess, because he's just decided to cast some aspersions there.

00:46:26   I wish they'd let other browsers on iOS so someone else could have a go.

00:46:30   Burn from the guy at Chrome.

00:46:34   That's part of the question here is how much of this, from Apple's perspective, is basically

00:46:39   Google trying to get more access to iOS versus Apple keeping control.

00:46:45   But here's what I'd say.

00:46:47   I think it's dumb that Apple doesn't let other browsers on iOS.

00:46:52   Bottom line.

00:46:53   I think you could argue that there's a consistency approach that you want, and by offering these

00:47:01   system-wide and now in iOS 9, offering this Safari service essentially to bring up Safari

00:47:08   inside an app and then you back out.

00:47:12   I think there's great strength in that, but the flip side of that is great strength that

00:47:17   doesn't need to be necessarily feel to feel threatened by other rendering

00:47:21   engines running on iOS so so yeah I think it's dumb that Chrome can't run on

00:47:28   iOS as Chrome and not as a WebKit instance inside of a wrapper called

00:47:33   Chrome which is what it is right now so I I agree with that I think Apple should

00:47:38   should I mean Apple's never gonna compete with Chrome on iOS in the sense

00:47:44   sense that all of the system calls are going to be based on WebKit and Safari.

00:47:48   That's just how it's going to be because they're the platform vendor and we, you know, we can't

00:47:52   open, you know, you can't open a different camera app by default.

00:47:56   You can't open a different mail app by default.

00:47:59   This is something Federico talks about all the time.

00:48:01   Apple has, at this point, wants to keep all that stuff like super seamless and tied to

00:48:05   the Apple apps.

00:48:06   and it can be frustrating for users of other apps. But I do think that it's fine if Apple

00:48:15   were to open it up to other rendering engines and that's always seemed to be one of the

00:48:20   stranger limits in the app store that you know other browsers are not welcome. Everybody

00:48:29   uses WebKit and that's it.

00:48:33   Yeah, I wonder, I think it's just an interesting thing to keep an eye on, like where are Apple

00:48:37   going to go in this.

00:48:39   And you know, we've been talking a lot recently about antitrust and anti-competitive stuff,

00:48:43   and considering this is something that Microsoft was hit so hard on, it's in the 90s right?

00:48:50   Sure, but the difference was that Microsoft was effectively a monopoly because they had

00:48:54   more than 90% of the computer industry.

00:48:57   And that's the difference, is if you want to use a different browser, don't use the

00:48:59   iPhone, use Android.

00:49:01   And Android has a bigger market share than iOS.

00:49:04   So there's no, you know, saying it's the same behavior as Microsoft, well, it's different

00:49:08   in one big way.

00:49:09   As Microsoft, we're using its monopoly power to control the web, the entire web, and say

00:49:13   basically we have 90% of web browsing devices, because there was no mobile back then, really.

00:49:19   So we have more than 90% of all of the web looking at our stuff, and we're going to integrate

00:49:24   it everywhere so that we can drown out all the competition and we will control everything

00:49:29   that everyone sees on the web.

00:49:31   What Apple's saying is, we want to control the web on our devices, but if you don't want

00:49:36   to use our devices, you can use any of the other devices because Apple's phone market

00:49:42   share is not even close to half.

00:49:46   For me, that's the big difference.

00:49:48   Is it the same in that it's a platform vendor who wants to control the web on their platform?

00:49:52   Yeah, but Apple's end result is control of their platform and Microsoft's end result

00:49:58   was control of the entire internet and the shutting out of all competition anywhere.

00:50:03   Yeah.

00:50:04   I feel like in the last couple of weeks I've been a little bit down sounding on Apple and

00:50:11   I don't want people to think that I am, if that makes sense.

00:50:14   There's just been a few things recently that have been frustrating me and I only talk about

00:50:20   them in this way because I love them so much and I hate it when they annoy me.

00:50:24   Yeah.

00:50:25   And I think this is a good subject to see both sides of it right.

00:50:32   That for me, I think Apple could be more open, I think Apple should participate more in web

00:50:37   standards, but I also don't think that we should all make the assumption that that means

00:50:41   Apple should say yes to everything that everybody in web standards proposes.

00:50:45   I mean Apple needs to be out there, but they need to be out there saying yes and no.

00:50:50   And if people want to say "Oh I can't believe Apple's not supporting this" that's fine,

00:50:54   But right now it's like we keep waiting for Apple, what the web developers say is we keep

00:50:59   waiting for Apple to release updates to see if they're supporting these things because

00:51:04   we just don't know.

00:51:06   And that's weird.

00:51:08   And I would like to see less of that from Apple.

00:51:12   But I think Apple's absolutely right to be able to say, "No, we don't believe that that's

00:51:17   the future of the web and we don't think that's good for our users and we're not going to

00:51:20   support it."

00:51:21   Yeah, I guess maybe they can they can choose to support what they want to support

00:51:25   But they need to be more open about it rather than just leaving people high and dry just waiting

00:51:30   exactly, and it's totally I think in in

00:51:33   fit it fits with

00:51:36   The way Tim Cook's Apple has been comporting itself lately for it to be more open about that and I hope that happens

00:51:42   I hope that that that is one of the other ways that Apple is gonna be a little more communicative

00:51:47   Than it was in the past that this is not you know webkit development

00:51:52   You know Safari features and user features and things like that

00:51:55   I totally get wanting to keep those secret until you you know you announce El Capitan or whatever

00:52:01   but on the webkit side

00:52:03   Being more open about where Apple thinks webkit is going and how it's going to support different initiatives

00:52:11   Let's let's get that at me open and be as communicative as possible about it

00:52:16   So that Nolan Lawson can write a blog post that says I can't believe Apple doesn't like my database format

00:52:21   Instead of why won't Apple decide what it wants to do with this database format?

00:52:27   Yeah, like basically talk about the things that I don't understand like this kind of stuff like I don't understand it

00:52:34   So if I don't understand it, nobody already understands it unless you do this stuff

00:52:37   there's no harm in talking about it and saying what you're gonna do it or not because you're not giving anything away because like

00:52:45   99% of people that buy your products don't even know what you're talking about

00:52:49   So like just just tell tell Nolan if you're gonna support the database for just just do it, you know

00:52:54   Also to get back to that ie parallel Microsoft announced all sorts of things for ie Microsoft's issue was not

00:53:01   questions about whether it would support web standards a lot of Microsoft's issues were Microsoft just announced its own web standards and

00:53:09   expected people to build them and

00:53:13   And Apple does occasionally do stuff like that, but the difference is they're just saying

00:53:19   support this on our devices, and Microsoft was literally saying we control the entire

00:53:23   web, you have to do what we say.

00:53:24   So it's a little bit different.

00:53:26   But yeah, I think there's interesting points being made on all sides, and I think I posted

00:53:31   a follow-up because Nolan Lawson posted a follow-up where he was humble and said, you

00:53:36   know, he thinks he probably went too far in some areas, but that this was sort of what

00:53:40   he meant and he didn't expect it to blow up like it did, and I interacted with him a little

00:53:45   bit on Twitter and he seems like a nice guy, and I posted a follow-up and I said, "Look,

00:53:50   I think this is a good discussion that we're having. I don't agree with all of Nolan's

00:53:54   points, he doesn't agree with mine, I don't agree with Lauren Bricter's points, many of

00:54:00   them, and he doesn't agree with mine, and that's fine, I'm glad we're having the conversation.

00:54:05   I'd like Apple to be a part of this conversation too, because it seems like there's a lot of

00:54:08   frustration about not knowing what the heck Apple is doing in areas where Apple

00:54:13   should probably just say look here's what we think.

00:54:16   Right let's take a break and then we'll talk about Apple Music.

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00:55:45   I love fracture prints.

00:55:47   Jason, I know that you've had a few, I know when I came to see you in your home in lovely

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00:55:55   Indeed.

00:55:56   I have several.

00:55:57   I have five on the walls out in my garage.

00:55:59   When we talk about the frame, it's not really, it's not a frame, right?

00:56:03   the picture, because the picture is printed on the glass, so instead of having a frame,

00:56:07   what we think of as the frame is the picture, the picture is the frame with fracture, which

00:56:10   is really interesting. I've got a bunch of the smaller squares, and this is following

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00:59:48   So Apple Music we've had it for a week now.

00:59:50   Do you mind if I give my overall feelings and then we can do it?

00:59:54   I was going to say, "Hey Myke, give me your overall feelings about Apple Music."

00:59:58   I was going to start there so let's hear it.

01:00:00   I'm happy with it overall.

01:00:03   There are some niggling problems that I have that I think are gonna just get ironed out

01:00:08   because they tend to be with software more than anything.

01:00:12   iTunes is a little bit confusing but I feel like that's just iTunes right so I

01:00:18   didn't really expect anything else and there is this is some weird stuff like

01:00:23   I've seen it's basically become a meme now which is like if you're listening to

01:00:26   a song how do you get to the artist or album and it's like you press this

01:00:30   button and this button it's possible I can't remember how you I think you tap

01:00:34   the ellipses and then you tap the name of the current song and it takes you to

01:00:38   which doesn't even make any sense.

01:00:39   Like there's some weird navigation stuff.

01:00:42   - Dan Morin posted a thing about it that was so bizarre

01:00:44   that it's like it's a really useful how-to tip

01:00:46   and yet at the same time it should not be like this.

01:00:49   - No.

01:00:50   But it's, you know,

01:00:51   there are things that could be a lot better with it.

01:00:55   But I think overall I am happy with the service

01:00:59   and I am enjoying using it.

01:01:01   But I think that they've got some ways to go still, I think.

01:01:07   Yeah, I wonder if they should have called the three month trial a beta.

01:01:12   Yeah, that probably would have been a good idea.

01:01:16   Jonathan Mann did a song about Apple Music that was mostly from the perspective of musicians

01:01:23   and Dave Whiskus wrote a blog post about it too.

01:01:27   But in Jonathan Mann's song, he mentions in his video that in the past Apple has released

01:01:33   things that were sort of of this level of stability and called it a beta and

01:01:36   you know it I'm I've really enjoyed it myself but I do have that feeling that

01:01:43   you know this got pushed out as a work in progress and maybe they should have

01:01:51   just said look we're gonna do a free public beta for three months you know

01:01:55   use it tell us what you think of it and we'll keep making changes to it as we as

01:02:00   as we go because yeah there's just weird things the UI is weird yeah there's just some strange

01:02:06   stuff in it that I feel like needs to get ironed out but the content is just it's a

01:02:12   lot of fun beats we got to talk about beats one so the day that it launched I was driving

01:02:16   from we drove from San Francisco to LA the day that it launched so we listened to beats

01:02:21   one for quite a while on the drive and then we switched over and listened to some playlists

01:02:26   and stuff. So I'm, you know, this is your guy, Zane Lowe. Do you have more to say about

01:02:33   Beats 1?

01:02:34   Yeah, let me just mention Playlists first.

01:02:37   Oh yeah, okay.

01:02:38   And then we'll talk about Beats 1.

01:02:40   Speaking of Betas.

01:02:41   Well, no, because what I want to say is, because I have good things to say about Playlists,

01:02:45   I'm not sure what, I'll ask you what the problem is that you have. The thing is, like, the

01:02:51   app is frustrating in points, but it's not so much that it's an issue, and fundamentally

01:02:55   the fact that the service works the way that I want it to

01:02:58   and the content that I want is in there

01:02:59   means that I am overall very, very happy with Apple Music.

01:03:03   Like for example, the playlists that they have,

01:03:06   I just adore.

01:03:08   It seems like every time I open the app on my iPhone,

01:03:11   they are suggesting a new playlist to me

01:03:13   which I just wanna listen to instantly.

01:03:16   And I keep pulling them up and it's perfect.

01:03:19   'Cause I am a big fan of alternative music,

01:03:21   alternative indie rock and stuff like that.

01:03:23   And I follow the Apple--

01:03:25   - It turns out that all of the music that I like

01:03:27   is classified in Apple Music as alternative.

01:03:30   - Yeah.

01:03:30   - So like, okay, that's a really broad category

01:03:32   and I don't really like that word, but okay.

01:03:35   - It is, I have the same,

01:03:36   but it doesn't really bother me too much

01:03:37   because the music-

01:03:38   - 'Cause rock is like Jim Dalrymple territory, right?

01:03:41   Rock is like screaming guitars and stuff.

01:03:43   And I consider myself a rock music fan,

01:03:45   but they're not, you know,

01:03:47   what they've classified as rock is very different

01:03:49   than what I would consider alternative.

01:03:51   I'm with you, alternative.

01:03:53   Did you listen to A-list alternative playlist?

01:03:55   'Cause I really loved it and it was entirely populated

01:03:57   other than Muse and there was one other artist

01:04:01   that I'd heard of in there, but it was entirely populated

01:04:03   by artists I'd never heard of.

01:04:05   And not all of it was great,

01:04:08   but a lot of it was legitimately great.

01:04:11   - I haven't listened to it, but I'm looking at it

01:04:12   and there is a ton of my favorite bands in here.

01:04:16   - Yeah, I discovered Civil Twilight, I discovered,

01:04:20   and they're really good.

01:04:21   I'd never heard of them.

01:04:22   one of my favorite songs at the moment is "Bros"

01:04:25   by Wolf Alice, which is a song that I know

01:04:27   from like a year or two ago,

01:04:28   'cause they've just released their first album.

01:04:31   But it's, yeah, there's just some great stuff on here.

01:04:33   And the thing is, I'm opening it up,

01:04:34   and it's suggesting to me like, alternative party.

01:04:37   And I'm looking at it, I'm like,

01:04:38   "Oh my God, this is amazing."

01:04:39   And there was this one playlist,

01:04:40   which was like, alternative songs about youth.

01:04:43   And it was basically all of the stuff

01:04:45   that I love when I was 19.

01:04:47   And it's like, this is just, and I'm eating it up.

01:04:50   Like, I am in love with these playlists.

01:04:52   and I'm subscribing to more and more and more every single day.

01:04:55   I'll put a couple of links to some of the ones that we've mentioned in the show notes.

01:04:58   It's incredibly hard to link to them.

01:05:00   But I'll find a way.

01:05:01   This is what I was going to say.

01:05:02   My complaints about playlists are my complaints about beats in general,

01:05:05   or sorry, Apple Music in general, which is it's hard to find things.

01:05:08   It's hard to know where to look.

01:05:11   If you heart something,

01:05:13   nothing seems to happen other than filling the recommendation engine.

01:05:16   You can't look at your hearts. They're not saved anywhere.

01:05:18   You can add things.

01:05:19   What you need to do is add things to your library.

01:05:22   Then they show up in your iTunes library, which is very interesting.

01:05:25   It makes no distinction.

01:05:27   So I took that Civil Twilight album and I just added it to my library and it shows up

01:05:32   on my Mac and iTunes, which is crazy.

01:05:35   But cool, I like that, but it's crazy.

01:05:37   And likewise if I subscribe to a playlist, that A-list alternative playlist is in my

01:05:41   playlist on iTunes, which is actually kind of great.

01:05:44   I really like the mixture of my iTunes library.

01:05:47   I know some people have a problem with it, but I really like being able to add things

01:05:50   and have my existing iTunes library and they're all just present.

01:05:54   It's just some confusion about how do I find things?

01:05:56   How do I find an artist?

01:05:58   How do I find a playlist?

01:05:59   How do I save it for later?

01:06:01   Some of that stuff could be clearer.

01:06:03   And then one of the things that frustrates me too is that sometimes I actually just want

01:06:08   to do an artist shuffle.

01:06:10   Like play everything from this artist in a shuffle.

01:06:13   And I don't think you can do that.

01:06:15   Oh man, I haven't tried to do that yet but that's going to drive me crazy if you can't

01:06:18   do that.

01:06:19   It seems very album and track oriented and I don't think you can find an artist and just

01:06:26   press shuffle or play with the shuffle turned on.

01:06:28   I guess what you could do, and I've had to do this in the past, is create a playlist.

01:06:33   Yeah, but again, it ought to be easier than that.

01:06:39   So that's what I've been saying is I think the content is great, not just that they've

01:06:42   got a library of tracks, but the curation that we've been talking about I think is really

01:06:47   good.

01:06:48   I liked it on Beats too. I like that it's more integrated with my music library now

01:06:52   that it's Apple Music. So, yeah, I've been enjoying it. I just feel like some of the

01:06:58   interface stuff, especially on the iPhone, is kind of obscure. That ellipsis button,

01:07:04   right, is like we also put a lot of other crap in here and it's all hiding under the

01:07:08   ellipsis. It's like I'm not quite sure. I mean, it's a hard interface problem. We can't

01:07:14   just say, "Well, it's very obvious how Apple should have done this," because it's like,

01:07:18   this is really hard because they've got a la carte music and they've got a

01:07:22   streaming service and they've got radio and they've got to try to mix it all

01:07:26   together in a way that makes sense and then it also falls back if you're not a

01:07:30   subscriber and you don't want to see it it's a hard problem but they've got more

01:07:34   work to do. Because fundamentally you're not gonna get it to make sense because

01:07:39   it's too much like and over time it will but like it's not gonna make sense

01:07:44   initially because it's a very very hard problem to fix and they will I believe

01:07:50   that they will do it but you've really got to open it up to allow people like

01:07:54   us to complain before you can kind of understand some of the things that

01:07:59   people want to do because especially music everybody has their own way of

01:08:02   wanting to categorize it play it use it the type of stuff they want to look for

01:08:06   and you've got to get this feedback however Apple because I genuinely

01:08:10   I genuinely believe they listen and read, right?

01:08:12   And as well, like to us and to other people and they also look at people on Twitter, I

01:08:17   believe that that is happening.

01:08:18   Apple is very aware of what people are saying about Apple.

01:08:21   I think even in the days when Apple didn't communicate, I can tell you from personal

01:08:25   experience, Apple is paying attention.

01:08:28   And the people who work on Apple products are paying attention to what people say about

01:08:31   their products.

01:08:32   Absolutely.

01:08:33   Absolutely.

01:08:34   It is not a black hole.

01:08:35   So let's talk about Beats 1.

01:08:36   I've been really impressed with it.

01:08:37   I think it's fantastic.

01:08:39   There's so many interesting shows, there's fantastic guest DJs, I like just tuning in

01:08:48   and my girlfriend has just, she asked me about it, I explained it to her, I showed her it

01:08:54   and now I keep hearing music playing, I'm like what is that?

01:08:57   She's like it's Beats 1 and she just keeps listening to it and she seems to really like

01:09:00   it.

01:09:01   There is a great mix, I've been really really frustrated by seeing people saying "oh I don't

01:09:06   like rap".

01:09:07   not just rap, there is rap, you need to understand that rap and hip hop is a massive market of

01:09:13   music and just because you don't listen to it, stop complaining about it, right? Because

01:09:18   there is a big mix there, but you are maybe tuning into the two hours where like, Julie

01:09:24   Adenouga is playing her set and she is predominantly hip hop and rap, because that's where she

01:09:29   came from. But you listen to Zayn and I mean, I'm just gonna say it, I told you, right?

01:09:36   out there that Zane Lowe is amazing.

01:09:38   He is incredible and his sets have been fantastic

01:09:41   and I love that they make playlists out of them

01:09:43   and you can follow them and connect.

01:09:45   I think I--

01:09:45   - I am disappointed that you can't listen back to the show

01:09:49   because the playlist, just having the playlist of the music,

01:09:52   that's a good, what was that song they played,

01:09:55   kind of service, but I do kind of miss the fact

01:09:58   that I can't go back and listen to the actual

01:10:01   Saint Vincent mixtape delivery service

01:10:03   because that was, I only caught the end of it

01:10:06   it was really great but I can't go back and listen to that show. I can see the playlist

01:10:10   and play those songs which is cool but I do wish that they had like a, even if it was

01:10:16   a seven day listen again I-player like kind of experience. We listened to Juliette and

01:10:21   Nuka coming down and that is totally not my genre of music and yet I enjoyed it because

01:10:27   so okay, the one at its worst is radio right and I don't love the radio and a lot of people

01:10:32   don't like the radio, you don't have any control over it, you have to take what comes. And

01:10:37   at its worst, that's what it is. If it's pummeling you with music that you don't like, you should

01:10:42   change the channel or listen to something else, right? But at its best, it is kind of

01:10:48   delightful with the surprise. It takes the fact that you aren't in control and takes

01:10:53   you on a journey. And whether it was, for us, the Julia Inuga set that on her first

01:11:00   day, on that first day, she was taking us on a little trip and she would say, you know,

01:11:06   she was playing, there was hip hop and rap and it was all up tempo, well it was mostly

01:11:13   up tempo, not entirely, but she's dropping in and is a very entertaining person and you

01:11:20   get the feeling like you're driving around town and she's the driver and she's talking

01:11:24   to you and she's playing music and she's telling you about the music and even though

01:11:30   all not all the music with stuff that I liked I kind of felt like I was having a

01:11:34   little bit of an adventure and being exposed to stuff that I wouldn't have

01:11:38   been exposed to and some of it I really did like and then I also felt when I was

01:11:42   done that I had taken this fun trip with with with with Julie and that you know

01:11:49   and that was kind of fun too so I think that at its best that's what it is is

01:11:54   is using the linear nature of radio to, with some very talented people, to take you on

01:12:01   a journey. And the point is almost not the music. I mean, the music is the journey you're

01:12:05   taking, but it's not like a playlist of music with people appearing in between and saying,

01:12:12   "That was this song. Now here is another song." But it is this cur--you get the sense it's

01:12:16   curated by these people, they care about it, and they're entertaining you along the way.

01:12:22   That's when it hits, that's what it is.

01:12:24   And when it doesn't work for you, you know, again, it's radio at that point and you should

01:12:29   change the channel or listen to a playlist.

01:12:33   I think.

01:12:34   Yeah, I completely agree.

01:12:36   The main problem that I think Apple, that Beats 1 has right now is trying to understand

01:12:40   their schedule.

01:12:43   They are attempting to create a schedule on their Tumblr page, but they need to really

01:12:48   lay it out better.

01:12:50   It seems like they play music, they play the shows every 12 hours.

01:12:55   Yeah, it looks like it's a 12 hour loop.

01:12:57   But it's not exactly 12 hours all the time.

01:13:00   Sometimes it's like 11.

01:13:01   It's like for example, I just did a... because Elton John's show starts today.

01:13:06   But it starts at 3am my time.

01:13:09   And then it's going to be broadcast again, you would expect at 3pm tomorrow.

01:13:13   But I just found a link on Elton John's website where they explain it.

01:13:17   Which is really funny.

01:13:18   They say, "It is not a podcast."

01:13:19   I was like, "Oh, look at that."

01:13:20   But apparently it's gonna be played at 3 a.m.

01:13:24   and then 2 p.m.

01:13:25   So that's not every 12 hours.

01:13:28   - No, interesting.

01:13:29   - If that is correct, this stuff,

01:13:31   it needs to be explained better

01:13:33   because their website doesn't do a good enough job

01:13:35   of showing it.

01:13:36   For example, if I scroll through now,

01:13:37   it only shows the next 10 hours of stuff.

01:13:39   So they need to get better at that.

01:13:42   But again, that's just a thing.

01:13:43   You just update the website.

01:13:45   But it is, I feel like these are just growing pains.

01:13:48   You just need to make the Tumblr a bit better to understand,

01:13:50   show a bigger list of stuff.

01:13:53   But like, you know, I just think that it's,

01:13:55   Beats One is just brilliant.

01:13:58   It's just such a great idea,

01:13:59   and I think that there is so much stuff

01:14:02   that they can still do with this,

01:14:04   and so many more channels they can do,

01:14:06   and I'm really, you know,

01:14:07   I wanna check out more of the celebrity shows.

01:14:08   I haven't had enough time to listen to it,

01:14:10   but it is partly because I haven't really been able

01:14:12   to work out when some stuff is being broadcast,

01:14:14   and I kinda just tune in and see what's happening

01:14:16   at the time, but that is kinda cool that they do that.

01:14:18   and I can just tune in and see what's there.

01:14:20   By the way, you know, talking about the playlists,

01:14:22   like if you wanna find playlists for a certain show,

01:14:25   just search for that person's name

01:14:27   and you can go to the connect page and follow them

01:14:29   and then the new playlists pop up

01:14:30   and you'll be able to see them in your full YouTube.

01:14:32   It's a lot of stuff and we have to learn new ways

01:14:35   of doing things, but I think what you learn

01:14:37   and it's probably not that difficult.

01:14:39   - Yeah, St. Vincent's Mixtape Delivery Service,

01:14:41   did you listen to that?

01:14:42   - Yeah, I got the playlist.

01:14:43   I didn't hear the show, but I got the playlist.

01:14:45   - Well, the show is amazing because what the idea here is

01:14:47   that she is talking to a fan and she calls them on the phone

01:14:51   and explains what the songs are on the mixtape

01:14:54   and why she picked them.

01:14:56   And the fans meanwhile, the fan is just melting down

01:14:59   because they're talking to this person they're a fan of.

01:15:01   And it's kind of hilarious.

01:15:03   So there was this girl that she's talking to about this,

01:15:05   but the playlist is insane.

01:15:07   It is an 80s playlist and it is, you know,

01:15:11   that was, it was for day one,

01:15:13   I thought it was a really smart move.

01:15:14   They, you know, they had Zane Lowe on,

01:15:16   They had "Julie" and "Nuga", they had the Beats LA stuff, which was very rap oriented,

01:15:21   hip hop oriented.

01:15:22   And then you get to St. Vincent and it's Depeche Mode, Stereo Lab, New Order, Devo, Chaka Khan,

01:15:29   Erasure, Bjork, David Bowie, Pet Shop Boys, The Pointer Sisters, and Talking Heads.

01:15:34   It's this super blast of the 80s that was, it was just a riot to listen to that.

01:15:40   So yeah, that's the diversity of it too.

01:15:44   I mean linear means that you may not you may tune in and find something you don't like but that you know

01:15:49   That's gonna happen. But sometimes something listening to something you're not you haven't been exposed to you may find something you like about it

01:15:55   That's the other thing that can happen. I'm not gonna listen to it all the time

01:15:57   I don't know how often you're gonna you're gonna listen to it

01:16:00   I'm not gonna listen to it all the time

01:16:01   But I will tune it in from time to time because I'm I'm very curious about what they can provide

01:16:06   And I anticipate that I will probably find some shows that I that I like and that I make time for

01:16:11   Yeah, I want to just lock myself into the schedule a bit more so I can work out how to do it because a lot

01:16:16   Of the work that I do is audio based. So, you know, yeah, that's the challenge

01:16:20   Oh, we should also say thank you to everybody out there who's listening to this podcast and hasn't stopped listening to podcasts

01:16:24   Because of all the things on Apple music and beats one. We thank you. It's not that good. You shouldn't go listen to it

01:16:29   You should just listen to us

01:16:30   Someone said it all back a couple of people said this to me on the day that it launches like aren't you worried?

01:16:35   I'm like not really I mean

01:16:37   There's just another thing for people to listen to I think that people enjoy our stuff enough that they will tune in

01:16:42   Irrespective of what great radios out there that radio and music services have been there all along and this is a new one and and

01:16:49   If it's a better one, then it provides some more competition to us, but I feel like

01:16:54   podcasts and and music are very different and use different parts of the brain and

01:16:59   And you know when I want to listen to music I'll listen to music and when I want to listen to podcasts or audiobooks

01:17:04   I'll listen to those

01:17:06   Should we do some Ask Upgrade?

01:17:08   Let's do that.

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01:18:01   but hover.com can sometimes sit in the middle and help you with the auctioning process and

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01:18:12   start at just $12.99. They have Whois privacy for free, which I love. If a domain supports

01:18:18   Whois privacy, they will just enable it for you during the checkout process. You can uncheck

01:18:22   it if you really want to. I don't know why you'd want to, but you can't. They'll just

01:18:25   take it and then your private information stays private. I just love that they do that.

01:18:29   It just seems like such a no brainer that it should be included but believe it or not

01:18:33   with some other people you have to pay.

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01:19:23   Robot or not, huh?

01:19:25   That show is like a whirlwind in the internet.

01:19:29   - We just got a link this weekend to a podcast

01:19:34   that had the guy who created Invader Zim on it,

01:19:37   the animated show, and they must have spent 10 minutes

01:19:41   basically talking about Robot or Not, not the podcast.

01:19:46   They mentioned the podcast and then they just started

01:19:48   debating robots or not of various things,

01:19:50   which was pretty hilarious.

01:19:52   So yeah, it is the dumb idea that has struck a nerve.

01:19:56   I figured it would.

01:19:57   I mean, it struck a nerve with us.

01:19:58   That's why we did it, is that every time anybody

01:20:00   would bring it up, everybody had opinions

01:20:02   and wanted to talk about whether things were robots or not.

01:20:04   So I saw someone on Twitter say,

01:20:06   "It's not a podcast about robots.

01:20:08   "It's a podcast about semantics."

01:20:09   And I don't agree, I think it is a podcast about both.

01:20:12   But yeah, I keep, it's crazy

01:20:15   that people want to listen. If you haven't heard it, it's me and John

01:20:19   Siracusa talking about whether things are robots or not and we post a couple

01:20:23   episodes a week but each episode is only about three minutes long and it's just

01:20:26   about one topic and then we move on. It's been fun to do it and it's been

01:20:31   fun to see people alternately entertained and frustrated by it but

01:20:37   that was sort of the point I think.

01:20:39   I feel like it is completely impossible for me to

01:20:42   to understand what John is gonna say as a robot.

01:20:46   That's what I love about it.

01:20:47   - That is the beauty of it is it's, is it me too, right?

01:20:50   I ask him and I have no idea where he's going.

01:20:53   There have been several times when I'm sure

01:20:54   that we're gonna have a violent disagreement on it

01:20:56   and then I'm surprised that he actually says

01:20:58   what I agree with because I've been ready with Kit,

01:21:01   the car from Knight Rider, I was ready to debate him

01:21:04   vociferously about my feelings about

01:21:06   whether Kit is a robot or not.

01:21:08   It turns out he was on my side on that one.

01:21:11   So that one was an easier one.

01:21:14   I also do kind of approach it from the perspective of,

01:21:17   I really wanna hear what Jon has to say

01:21:19   about whether things are robots or not.

01:21:22   I'm not sure I entirely endorse all of his judgments,

01:21:25   but in this case, Jon is the robot master.

01:21:29   So we see what Jon, it's all about Jon

01:21:32   and what he thinks a robot is

01:21:34   because his ways are strange and interesting.

01:21:37   - Onto Ask Upgrade.

01:21:40   Jason, I also would like to know,

01:21:41   are you still showering with your watch on and have you had any problems with that?

01:21:46   I took a test shower with the first Apple Watch, the one that Brad has now, Brad from

01:21:53   the pen addict. So I wish him luck with it. No, I did that as a test just so I could write

01:22:00   about having taken a shower with it, but I don't shower with my watch on. Also I mostly

01:22:04   am wearing the leather band which is not appropriate for showering. So no I did, actually we go,

01:22:09   On the 4th of July we went to the back bay here in Orange County down to Newport Beach

01:22:16   and we did a, we paddled around on Independence Day, did I say New Year's Day?

01:22:21   On the 4th of July we went and paddled around in outrigger canoes which was a lot of fun.

01:22:28   Went around Balboa Island, stopped, got a frozen banana at the banana stand, there's

01:22:32   always money in the banana stand.

01:22:35   That's actually, I mean that is what they're talking about.

01:22:38   place where we went is basically what they're talking about that's the reference from it's

01:22:43   not just a banana stand but it's a reference lots of references to Balboa Island in Arrested

01:22:48   Development and we got back and I noticed that the the digital crown was like a little

01:22:53   sticky and it's like the salt and and maybe some sand but like the salt had gotten in

01:22:57   there and I actually did for the first time I followed the the tech note and I took off

01:23:02   the the watch band and I took a little you know warm water and I sort of spun the spun

01:23:08   the digital crown under the warm water and then I dried the watch off, put the band back

01:23:11   on, everything's fine.

01:23:13   That terrifies me.

01:23:15   But I'm not taking showers with the Apple Watch.

01:23:18   I'm less careful with it like around water, like washing the dishes or whatever, I don't

01:23:22   take it off, I wouldn't swim with it, I wouldn't shower with it.

01:23:26   I do have some scratches on my watch now, like on the screen, and I'm just trying to

01:23:30   forget about them.

01:23:32   I bought the Apple Care so I figure I'm going to give it like another few months and I'm

01:23:35   gonna take it in, pay the £50 and get them to replace it. Yeah fair enough.

01:23:41   I wore the watch because when we went on the boat because I thought you

01:23:46   know it doesn't matter if it gets splashed on and I had meant to bring my

01:23:50   sport band and actually wear that but I brought the leather it was fine. I didn't

01:23:54   go for a swim. Guy wants to know is CoverFlow truly dead in iTunes in

01:24:01   the new music app, I think it is.

01:24:03   I mean.

01:24:04   Myke, we established already on the show that we are not your cover flow experts but it

01:24:09   seems to be truly totally utterly dead.

01:24:12   Because it's pointless for music.

01:24:16   Jeremy wanted to just kind of, he was very confused Jeremy and I understand.

01:24:22   He doesn't understand iCloud music.

01:24:23   So it's the iCloud music drive thing.

01:24:26   He says in my device I don't want to see all of my iTunes purchases access via iCloud.

01:24:31   I had a time where I had to go in and delete from my library

01:24:35   a bunch of stuff that I just didn't want to see in there

01:24:37   that I bought like six years ago.

01:24:39   - Right.

01:24:40   - It's just a thing.

01:24:41   It seems like basically the iCloud music library

01:24:45   seems like a thing that snuck up on me.

01:24:46   I don't know if I knew about this before.

01:24:48   The first time I recall knowing about it

01:24:50   was when Apple Music launched.

01:24:52   I'm sure it'd been around, but I'd kind of ignored it.

01:24:54   Seems to have to be enabled,

01:24:56   although you get this weird error where it's like,

01:24:59   you can't enable it!

01:25:00   and then it's, did you get that?

01:25:03   Like some really weird arrow popped up

01:25:04   and I saw a bunch of people saying it

01:25:06   when I first launched Apple Music.

01:25:08   And it was like, you cannot sync your library,

01:25:10   you must turn it back on again.

01:25:11   It was very strange.

01:25:12   But yeah, it seems like you have to have

01:25:14   this iCloud music library.

01:25:16   - Well there's a setting, there's a setting to turn it off.

01:25:20   What does that do?

01:25:21   - I don't know, I don't wanna do it, I'm scared.

01:25:23   - Oh, okay.

01:25:25   Well it's, yeah I think,

01:25:28   well I mean this is add songs and playlists

01:25:30   my music and access them from all your devices. I don't know. We're still figuring all this

01:25:34   stuff out. But I think you can't pick and choose, so I think you can either show your

01:25:40   library or not and access Apple Music or not.

01:25:47   Yeah I think it's like the idea of do you want to see what you add to your music library

01:25:50   and mirror across your devices. If you do, you have to have that turned on. I think that's

01:25:54   my understanding of it. So, I mean you could probably try and get by without it, but I

01:25:58   I think in the end you're just gonna have to give in

01:26:00   and just spend the time pruning your library as I did.

01:26:03   - Yeah, or if you don't wanna use Apple Music,

01:26:05   you just turn all that stuff off and then you're old school.

01:26:09   - Talking about that, John asked,

01:26:12   "How long do you think Apple will let me continue

01:26:14   "to keep going with my iTunes match?

01:26:15   "Will I eventually have to switch to Apple Music?"

01:26:18   In all of these scenarios, my advice tends to be the same,

01:26:21   which is just try and get used to the new thing

01:26:24   because eventually the old thing is gonna go away.

01:26:28   Yeah, Apple has said they're going to maintain iTunes Match.

01:26:33   I feel like as long as the iTunes store is a viable business of selling music, actually

01:26:40   selling it, I think iTunes Match is useful for Apple to keep around in parallel because

01:26:44   it provides a service for the people who are buying and not streaming.

01:26:49   But it's hard to see them putting much effort into it.

01:26:51   At the same time, Eddie Q said that he was hoping that the song limit on iTunes Match

01:26:55   would be raised.

01:26:58   I think that is because it also affects the song limit for Apple Music because it has

01:27:02   all of iTunes matches functionality built into it.

01:27:05   Yeah, that's true because you're uploading or matching and then using that on...

01:27:11   This is actually going to change...

01:27:12   Serenity Caldwell wrote a nice piece about like, no, it's not going to add DRM to the

01:27:17   music you already bought.

01:27:19   But it is going to change.

01:27:20   This is going to change how I handle music, because I've got a Mac that I buy music on,

01:27:26   and then I've got a Mac that I have my entire music library stored as a file.

01:27:33   And that Mac, right now, the way I do it, since I have iTunes Match, is I just download

01:27:38   the music on the one Mac, and then it uploads to iCloud, and then I download it on the other

01:27:41   Mac.

01:27:42   And if I give up iTunes Match, which I think I'm going to do, I'm going to just have to

01:27:46   diligent about the music I buy, I actually copy it over to that Mac and add it, so I've got a

01:27:51   non-iTunes, a non-iTunes or Apple Music version of those files, because I did buy them

01:27:59   and I want to have the non-DRM version. But yeah, it depends on if Apple thinks this is a real--

01:28:09   first of all, how much effort is it to do my iTunes match? It may not be a whole lot of effort

01:28:13   to keep that going. And, you know, how big is the market for the people who are not doing Apple Music?

01:28:18   And Apple still wants to serve them, and do they feel that this is a product that the remaining

01:28:25   people who aren't doing Apple Music want or not? But, you know, I'd imagine it'll at least be

01:28:30   around for another year, but I don't know. I don't believe that it's doomed, but it could go away.

01:28:37   I'm not certain it will go away, but it could if Apple just feels like, "Look, don't do

01:28:43   that anymore, just pay for Apple Music."

01:28:45   Do you want to cover this last one here from Michael?

01:28:49   Yeah, so Michael sent us a funny Ask upgrade and linked to a page that is "Brits try to

01:28:58   label the United States on a map and hilarity ensues."

01:29:01   A little 4th of July humor.

01:29:03   And he suggested some great radio drama for us that you get the geography test of trying

01:29:08   to name all the US states followed by me being quizzed about the Magna Carta.

01:29:13   And I wrote back and told Michael that I didn't think this would be effective because I saw

01:29:19   that Doctor Who episode where they go back in time and an android tries to stop the Magna

01:29:24   Carta from being signed and I know all about the Magna Carta because of Doctor Who.

01:29:28   So although it would be funny to test you about states.

01:29:31   Because sometimes I feel like you know a great deal about America that in some areas and

01:29:39   then in other areas you don't.

01:29:41   And it's a funny mixture with you that you have good knowledge and more American knowledge

01:29:46   than I think the average Brit would have.

01:29:50   And yet in other areas I think you haven't picked up that knowledge and so those areas

01:29:55   would be more vacant.

01:29:58   You've been to Memphis and I haven't, and you've been to Atlanta and I haven't, so you've

01:30:02   got me there.

01:30:03   I think I would quite like to take that test, because I don't know how I would do it.

01:30:07   I don't think I would do very well.

01:30:09   You should see if you can find a printout of the US map and just fill it in and scan

01:30:15   that and send it to me and maybe we'll talk about that next time.

01:30:18   Okay, I can do that.

01:30:19   And then you can invent a task for me.

01:30:22   Just don't make it Doctor Who related because then I would win.

01:30:25   So if anybody knows a place where I can take this online, that would be great.

01:30:30   Okay.

01:30:31   If I could just type it in.

01:30:32   Send that to us.

01:30:33   If you know a place where I can just take this test, send that to us.

01:30:36   I suppose.

01:30:37   It's less funny than if I don't have the proof of you writing Minnesota in Wisconsin's box.

01:30:42   I can send you a screenshot of my results or something.

01:30:44   Okay.

01:30:45   All right.

01:30:46   Because, yeah, that would be a lot easier then.

01:30:48   Because I don't have a printer.

01:30:49   Okay.

01:30:50   So that's like number one.

01:30:51   All right.

01:30:52   Yeah, screenshot works.

01:30:53   I just want proof.

01:30:54   I want proof of you labeling Oregon as Washington.

01:30:58   - 'Cause I think it would be very entertaining

01:31:00   for everyone, including me,

01:31:02   to see how I do on something like that.

01:31:03   - Yeah, that's not Colorado, that's Wyoming.

01:31:05   - So that wraps up for this week's episode of Upgrade.

01:31:09   If you'd like to find the show notes for today's episode,

01:31:11   there's a bunch in there,

01:31:11   including links to a bunch of Apple Music playlists.

01:31:13   You might wanna go check them out.

01:31:14   If they're not in your podcast app of choice,

01:31:16   you can find them at relay.fm/upgrade/44.

01:31:20   If you wanna find Jason online,

01:31:21   he writes over at sixcolors.com,

01:31:23   and he is @JSNEL, J S N E double L on Twitter. I am @imike, I M Y K E. Don't forget all

01:31:28   your feedback, follow up and questions for this show can be tweeted with the hashtag

01:31:31   #askupgrade. It's a great way for us to collect feedback and follow up as well as

01:31:35   the questions that you have so feel free to send any and everything through to there and

01:31:39   that would be great for us especially if you want to send me through some map tests, great

01:31:43   place to do that. Thanks again to our sponsors for helping us out today, Lynda.com, Hover

01:31:47   and Fracture and we'll be back next time with episode number 45. Until then, say goodbye

01:31:52   Jason.

01:31:52   Goodbye everybody.

01:31:54   [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:31:57   [ Music ]