42: Shuttlecraft Wallet


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   from relay FM this is upgrade episode number 42 today's show is brought to you

00:00:14   by our friends over at Casper Squarespace smile with PDF pen pro 7 and mail route

00:00:22   my name is Myke Hurley and I am joined as always by mr. Jason Snell so long and

00:00:28   thanks for all the fish, Myke.

00:00:30   Do you have your towel with you today?

00:00:31   I have my towel nearby because you always need to have your towel with you.

00:00:35   You do indeed.

00:00:36   That's what we learn, things we learn from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

00:00:39   Great book.

00:00:42   Yeah, yeah, love it. I grew up with the BBC miniseries that they did in the early 80s,

00:00:51   which is on one level horribly dated and yet sort of like adorably horribly dated,

00:00:57   And I loved that so much and the books.

00:01:02   And then I had never heard the radio drama before

00:01:05   a few years ago and the radio play is hilarious too.

00:01:08   So it's all I love.

00:01:10   And you're gonna love Douglas Adams for retelling that story

00:01:13   in as many formats as possible.

00:01:15   It's like how many different ways could that guy

00:01:17   get paid again for telling that story?

00:01:20   But that's one of the things I always appreciated

00:01:23   about Douglas Adams.

00:01:25   My favorite version is the Stephen Fry audiobook.

00:01:28   - Oh, so that's interesting.

00:01:31   I haven't heard that.

00:01:32   I haven't heard that.

00:01:33   I've heard that. - Oh, it's so good.

00:01:34   - I've only listened to the original audio,

00:01:36   the radio plays that they did on the BBC radio.

00:01:41   - Oh, it's very good.

00:01:42   - All right, I'll add that to my collection of every,

00:01:44   'cause I have it in all these formats too.

00:01:47   That's the other thing about it.

00:01:48   I've seen it or collected it in all those different formats.

00:01:53   Oh, trust me, you need this one. It's excellent.

00:01:55   And then the subsequent books are told by Martin Freeman.

00:01:59   This book by -- they're wrote by Martin Freeman.

00:02:03   So, you know, the connection.

00:02:04   -Yep. -Because he became...

00:02:07   -42. Anyway, Episode 42. We have to talk about it.

00:02:11   -Indeed.

00:02:12   So we do have some follow-up and follow-out today.

00:02:16   Upgrading Solomon wrote in.

00:02:19   Because last week, we were talking about,

00:02:21   you know, the utility of a larger iPad,

00:02:22   and we were talking about being able to have multiple apps on screen and that kind of thing.

00:02:26   But obviously there is more, there is even more utility in the idea of having an iPad

00:02:32   Pro with an improved digitizer and a stylus made by Apple.

00:02:36   We're going to wrap around to this again, which we've spoken about in the past, but

00:02:39   I wanted to just bring it up because it seems like all the stars are aligning.

00:02:44   If you look at the new Notes app and stuff like that and the tools that are in there.

00:02:48   I am very excited about the notion of a large iPad with a pen input.

00:02:53   I think that that would be really, really cool.

00:02:55   And Salma mentioned, like, with the Surface, I think this is, you know, would be nice,

00:03:00   there is a button on the Surface that opens OneNote.

00:03:02   You just press the button and it automatically opens OneNote on the Silas.

00:03:05   And it'd be pretty cool if you could do that.

00:03:07   You press a button, it opens the Notes app or something, and you could just start scribbling

00:03:10   away.

00:03:11   Well, you know my feelings about pens.

00:03:14   I have a difficult relationship with pens.

00:03:17   I'm not a great--it's my own fault. I'm not a--I'm terrible at handwriting penmanship.

00:03:23   Penmanship is my worst skill. In school I always got marked down for bad penmanship.

00:03:29   My handwriting is, you know, it went at its best, at its height it looked terrible, and

00:03:34   now with all the years that I've spent not writing with--since I have digital devices,

00:03:39   my handwriting now is like caveman scrawl. I would--in college we would copy edit the

00:03:45   pages of the newspaper when they would when we were working on the issues and as editor-in-chief

00:03:52   especially I would write on the pages like corrections and stuff and that was sort of

00:03:57   that became legendary of incomprehensible notes on pages like what does this say something about

00:04:04   a toupee um no it's nothing about a toupee but uh yeah so I have a difficult relationship with

00:04:13   pens because it's not the input format for me, but I agree one of the real shames of

00:04:18   the iPad all along has been that the digitizer is just not very good. It's, I mean, it's

00:04:22   perfectly fine for what it is for fingers, but everybody who has tried, if you ask anyone

00:04:29   who's built iPad styluses, iPad pens, they will tell you that, you know, it's problematic.

00:04:37   The digitizer is not as high resolution as it should be, and it's not pressure sensitive,

00:04:41   which is why they end up building these pressure-sensitive Bluetooth pens to sort of read the pressure

00:04:46   from the other side. And it would be nice if Apple, you know, even if Apple doesn't

00:04:51   come up with its own pen, even if it didn't do that, if it just built into the OS and

00:04:58   into an iPad Pro kind of device, you know, a higher resolution digitizer and pressure

00:05:03   sensitivity and have it be kind of like, you know, it's there and either there's an Apple

00:05:08   pen that you can get or there's a, you know, it's just a third-party opportunity. That

00:05:13   would be good because I definitely hear especially from all the artists out there and having

00:05:17   worked with Serenity Caldwell for all those years at Macworld, you know, she made me well

00:05:21   aware of this as an issue. And this is one of those cases where Microsoft with the Surface

00:05:24   was just way ahead. Like, I think they changed digitizers with the Surface 3 and I had heard

00:05:29   that it was not as good, but Surface and Surface 2 had really good digitizers and that was

00:05:34   a way for them to provide a little more, give them differentiation. And I heard from artists

00:05:40   who said, and famously there was the guy from Penny Arcade wrote a bunch of articles about

00:05:43   it, about how Surface ended up being a really great sketch tool because it had, you know,

00:05:49   it had better support for art stuff than the iPad did. And you know, I always read that

00:05:54   and thought if I'm, you know, if I'm at Apple working on the iPad, I'd point to stuff like

00:05:58   that and say this is a market we should probably try to cover at some point because we've got,

00:06:03   know, we're doing pretty well, but you know, we could lose that. That's that

00:06:07   should be our audience, right? That's a creative professional. We, you know, I know

00:06:11   I know we are bigger than that now, but still that's part of Apple's heritage

00:06:15   and why would we not be the go-to? Look at how many people try to use the iPad

00:06:19   for sketches now with these pointing tools that are so limited compared to

00:06:23   what we could build in and, you know, maybe the iPad Pro. We've said this

00:06:26   before, a lot of our iPad dreams are being invested in the iPad Pro, I think.

00:06:31   you know, like having a new product gives them reasons to add features to the iOS,

00:06:37   having the iPad sales be flat helps too in the sense that it's like, how do we

00:06:42   reinvigorate it? And so, you know, I worry that we've invested a little too much

00:06:47   hope, there's a little too much wish casting going into this mythical big

00:06:53   iPad, but yeah, it would be great to see.

00:06:58   Just going back to something you mentioned a moment ago, I think if Apple put the work

00:07:02   in to improve the digitizer and that kind of stuff and the pressure sensitivity, they're

00:07:06   gonna make their own stylus.

00:07:09   You would think.

00:07:10   I think it would be kind of crazy.

00:07:11   You would think.

00:07:12   You would think.

00:07:13   Showing it with the pen and the marketing shots is what sells the device.

00:07:17   Because I think that has to be more than just big iPad.

00:07:21   Like it has to do something.

00:07:22   And if this is the one that works with the stylus, that would make sense to me.

00:07:26   It depends on if they think that there's a big enough market for that piece of hardware.

00:07:30   They could.

00:07:31   They could.

00:07:32   They could work with a partner too.

00:07:33   I mean, they've done that before.

00:07:35   They could have demos on stage where they say, "We've been working with PenMaker X here

00:07:41   and AppMaker X here," or even like, "We've been working with paper and look at what we've

00:07:48   done with them in the last couple of weeks in the lab using the new APIs and blah, blah,

00:07:53   blah."

00:07:54   They could do that too.

00:07:55   their levels there. I think you're right, they could do their own thing because they're

00:07:59   gonna want to demo it and they can sell that in the stores or they bundle it with a device

00:08:02   depending on how they want to handle it. But I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility

00:08:08   that they could just let it be with partners and highlight it that way. It depends on how

00:08:13   important a market that is and whether this is something that they think is integral to

00:08:17   this product or whether it's sort of a thing that a small group of people will be really

00:08:21   excited about, so it adds to the strength of the product, but not, you know, because

00:08:25   if you want to—you don't want that product necessarily tied too closely to the pen, because

00:08:32   I don't know if you want that product to be thought of as the one that comes with a pen,

00:08:36   or the one that has a pen. So I think it's a line they've got to walk. If you see what

00:08:42   I mean there, like, if you go too far down that path, it's like the iPad that comes with

00:08:45   a pen, and I'm not sure that's the message they want to send either.

00:08:49   I don't know. Maybe for people who love pens, it's more exciting as the iPad that comes

00:08:54   with a pen!

00:08:57   I think that there are some avenues that you're missing for why it would be a good thing to

00:09:05   be, it's the one that comes with the pen, like all of enterprise and all of education.

00:09:13   And if they do, you know, if this is where they roll out some undiscovered features of

00:09:17   iOS 9, that there's an iOS 9 update that enables, you know, more digital ink kind of things

00:09:25   in apps, and you know, maybe there's a bigger story there.

00:09:28   I just, I feel like there's a spectrum of possibilities here that goes from it being

00:09:33   like a full-on embrace of pen input to a kind of all the way over to the other end, which

00:09:38   is it's there and the people who care about it will be excited about it, but the Apple's

00:09:42   not going to make a big deal about it and sort of like let that be a third party opportunity.

00:09:46   And I think in them, you know, in between there are there are lots of possibilities

00:09:50   too. So we'll have to see. I'm not discounting it as as important. I think it's important.

00:09:54   I think it's a question of how hard Apple hits it and whether they hit that on stage

00:09:59   or whether that's something that just sort of like comes in a press release about oh,

00:10:02   you know, or they mention on stage that, oh, well, we've worked with institutions and education

00:10:07   and health care and they love it. It just depends on how hard they want to hit it because

00:10:12   Do they think the biggest audience for this

00:10:13   is people who are gonna be like, "Yeah, pens."

00:10:15   Or is the biggest audience gonna be people who are like,

00:10:18   "Woo, big screen, it's cool."

00:10:21   And that the fear, 'cause I do think there's a fear there

00:10:25   that if you overemphasize the pen,

00:10:27   you're gonna turn some people off who are like,

00:10:29   "Well, but I don't want a pen.

00:10:31   "I don't wanna use a pen."

00:10:31   So you gotta modulate that.

00:10:33   By the way, this is fun to talk about it.

00:10:35   This is why it bugs me when people criticize Apple

00:10:40   about things that are like implying

00:10:43   that Apple hasn't given it thought.

00:10:45   And this happens a lot on the internet, right?

00:10:47   It's like, I can't believe they didn't think of this.

00:10:49   It's like, you know what?

00:10:50   They thought of that.

00:10:51   'Cause what we're going through now

00:10:53   is like a product marketing debate.

00:10:55   This is like the kind of thing that happened

00:10:56   in Phil Schiller's group all the time, right?

00:10:59   And that's a tough job because like this,

00:11:01   there's no right answer here.

00:11:03   This is complicated.

00:11:05   - Yeah, because me and you are both coming at this

00:11:07   from different angles and we are both Apple's customers.

00:11:09   The advantage we would have is at Apple, we would have lots of research, although, you

00:11:14   know, who says the research isn't conflicting too?

00:11:16   And the research isn't, they probably don't have research that says, "We asked iPad Pro

00:11:22   buyers what they wanted."

00:11:24   You know, they could maybe do some of that, but they have to couch it in certain ways

00:11:28   that it doesn't give away what they're doing.

00:11:30   But they do have some, you know, internal market research that's pretty powerful that

00:11:33   they can use for this sort of thing.

00:11:35   But it's a question, how do you market?

00:11:39   Let's assume the iPad Pro exists.

00:11:41   Now that product, and has the features that are already locked in, right?

00:11:46   That was decided on based on understanding of the market and what they want to target.

00:11:51   And that's complicated.

00:11:53   And then explaining what that product is to the public is a challenge.

00:11:58   Because even if it's literally the same product, how you market it can completely change how

00:12:03   how people view it and you risk, you know, I could make the argument that you risk going

00:12:09   kind of off the edge if you make it too much about the pen because a lot of people are

00:12:13   going to get turned off and I guess those are people like me, we're like well being

00:12:16   a pen whatever but it's not for me so I guess I won't buy that one but you also risk underselling

00:12:22   it and losing your most important point if you don't talk about it. It's like fantasy

00:12:26   Apple marketing that we're doing here.

00:12:28   That's what we're here for.

00:12:32   But there's no way to win. Fortunately, there's also no way to lose.

00:12:36   So moving on with our follow-up this week. So we do have a mic at the movies later on

00:12:40   today. We're going to be talking about Say Anything, another classic 80s movie from Jason's

00:12:45   Selection. But I wanted to mention, actually, if we're doing a bit of follow-out, that I

00:12:50   did another mic at the movies this week.

00:12:54   How is that possible? How is it possible that you could do another mic at the movies? Because

00:12:57   we only did one show this week and this is it. How could that be, Myke? How could there

00:13:02   be another episode of Upgrade with a Myke at the Movies?

00:13:05   - Uh, Casey Liss asked me to do one.

00:13:10   - But Casey Liss doesn't host Upgrade on the Great Relay FM Network, so how would that

00:13:14   work? I don't need... Is Casey here right now? Is Casey out there right now? I don't

00:13:18   understand, Myke.

00:13:19   - I'm sorry, Jason.

00:13:21   - Do you have other podcasts? Are you on other podcasts with other hosts who aren't me?

00:13:27   I am, I'm afraid. I'm sorry to say, I'm sorry this is such a harsh realization for you today.

00:13:35   Maybe I should have spaced all this news out a little bit more, but I did do, me and Jason.

00:13:40   Oh no!

00:13:41   JC, I'll call him JC now. We did...

00:13:46   Who sent you shells and cheese, Myke? And who sent you a lovely container of Manchego

00:13:52   was dispatched to you by an individual workman. Just, you know, who loves you is what I'm

00:13:58   saying.

00:13:59   It is peculiar, like, the parallels between you and Casey, in that you both sent me cheese.

00:14:03   You both wanted to talk about movies with me.

00:14:06   No, I sent you cheese. Casey sent you Velveeta.

00:14:08   He sent me processed cheese-like product.

00:14:12   Goo in a package. Let's be clear. Mine came from a sheep. His came from, I don't know,

00:14:17   an extruder in a factory somewhere.

00:14:20   We spoke about "Sneakers."

00:14:22   Yeah, this is "Analog 45," is that right?

00:14:26   That is correct.

00:14:27   All right, "Sneakers," great movie.

00:14:29   I enjoyed it a lot.

00:14:30   Did you like it?

00:14:32   Spoilers.

00:14:33   Okay, just listen.

00:14:35   People can listen to "Analog," if they'd like to hear that.

00:14:39   All I'll say is, you may feel better about all of this when you listen to how I felt

00:14:45   about that movie.

00:14:46   Okay.

00:14:47   That's all I'll say.

00:14:48   All right.

00:14:49   If you didn't like it, that's going to make Dan Morin sad. That's one of his favorites,

00:14:52   too.

00:14:53   Well, Dan will have to listen to it.

00:14:55   Dan, okay. All right, that's good follow-up. Good to know. Other podcasts are available

00:14:59   that have Micah the Movies, which was invented here. It's okay. I like that that's spreading.

00:15:04   Like the #AskUpgrade. I like that it's sort of such a good idea originated here on Upgrade

00:15:09   that Upgrade is exerting its influence on other podcasts. I'm going to take it like

00:15:13   that.

00:15:14   That was actually what Casey said at the start of the show. There are a bunch of things that

00:15:18   come from this show, like follow out is one, verticals are another, we have the hashtag

00:15:22   feedback system.

00:15:25   This show is a trendsetter.

00:15:27   We're innovators, Myke.

00:15:28   We are innovators.

00:15:29   We really are.

00:15:30   So this is why people listen, I think.

00:15:33   Innovation.

00:15:34   Hashtag innovation.

00:15:36   Oh, I had some follow out too.

00:15:39   Oh yeah?

00:15:40   Speaking of Casey List, I wanted to do some follow out about Accidental Tech Podcast,

00:15:46   which is a small boutique podcast about technology featuring three people that you've never really

00:15:51   heard of and all they do is talk about programming all the time so it's not, you know, not widely

00:15:56   listened to because they spend all their time talking about objective-C and Swift and, you

00:16:03   know, curly brackets and square brackets and things. Anyway.

00:16:07   But Jason, I thought we were talking about Swift today.

00:16:10   We are talking about Swift today, a more popular Swift. Anyway, ATP, you may not have heard

00:16:18   of it, but they did an episode where, in episode 122, where they were talking about John Syracuse's

00:16:23   wallet. And he told this story because he has a huge wallet apparently and keeps it

00:16:28   in his backpack. And then they told the story about how he left the backpack at my house,

00:16:32   which he did. And that made me laugh that I was listening to them talk about John leaving

00:16:37   his backpack at my house, which is totally true. We said goodbye and everybody piled

00:16:41   into that little, that, uh, well, not little car, but there were too many people to fit

00:16:44   in that car. Um, that was effectively a little car. Yeah. Well, it turned into a little car.

00:16:49   We were going to get an Uber and then there was, nah, we can fit. And then it was, well,

00:16:52   you can, you theoretically, you can fit in there. Um, and then, you know, we're cleaning

00:16:57   up and stuff and then knock, knock, it's John Syracuse has appeared at my door again to

00:17:01   get his backpack, which is just laying right there on the floor. He knew exactly where

00:17:04   it was. So did he lose it or did he just leave without it? I'll leave that as an

00:17:09   exercise for the listener. But I just wanted to ask, do you have a wallet and

00:17:13   how big is it and what's in it? I'm curious. I wanted to do some wallet

00:17:18   comparison. I know vital stuff, but I'm curious.

00:17:21   Wallets are a source of eternal frustration for me. I have one and I

00:17:27   hate it and I've never liked any wallet I've ever owned. I keep a few cards in

00:17:35   there like a few credit cards and stuff. Well, debit cards, one credit card.

00:17:40   I have some ID, I have a pass for my co-working space, I keep my glasses

00:17:47   cleaner like a little microfiber cloth in there. I have some Canadian

00:17:53   dollars and I have some euros so I have like one bill of each. If you find yourself in Canada you've got money.

00:18:02   That is exactly the reason. This doesn't happen to me so much anymore. This sounds like a really weird start to a story.

00:18:08   But when I used to fly into the US for cheaper than I do now because these days I tend to get better flights.

00:18:17   I would find myself flying through Canada a lot and I would end up in a Canadian airport

00:18:25   where I would need to buy food and it would always be a palaver trying to get money to pay at the airport.

00:18:32   So it basically just came to the point of I one time went to like an ATM that was in the airport,

00:18:40   took out some cash and have kept some in my wallet in case it happens again.

00:18:45   I don't even know where to begin. First off, I want to give you extra credit for—you

00:18:52   know, we joke about you being hovering over the Atlantic and losing a lot of your Britishisms

00:18:57   because you talk to so many Americans on a regular basis, but you just use "Palaver,"

00:19:02   and that is as British as it comes, so good for you. I was going to say, "Good on you,

00:19:07   mate," but that would be if you were Australian, which you're not. So thumbs up to that.

00:19:13   I, again, I'll just say for efficiency's sake,

00:19:16   shouldn't you, do you literally keep Canadian money

00:19:19   in your wallet because otherwise you may pass

00:19:22   through Canada and have forgotten to put it back in there?

00:19:25   And so all the rest of the time, for like 99% of the time,

00:19:28   you're carrying around Canadian money just because

00:19:31   if the moment you take it out of the wallet is the moment

00:19:33   that you're going to be passing through the Toronto airport

00:19:35   and need to buy some, you know, I don't know,

00:19:38   maple syrup on poutine.

00:19:40   It's basically like Schrodinger's dollars.

00:19:43   - Okay.

00:19:44   - You know?

00:19:44   But now it's also, I just keep, it's one bill followed up.

00:19:48   Usually I have some dollars in there as well,

00:19:50   but I have quite a few dollars left over

00:19:53   from the San Francisco trip.

00:19:55   So they have all been taken out now

00:19:56   and they're just waiting on my dresser

00:19:58   until I go back in either September or October.

00:20:01   - But you've got your emergency Canadian money

00:20:03   in there regardless.

00:20:04   - Emergency money.

00:20:05   - How much is it?

00:20:06   It's like five or 10 or?

00:20:07   - I think it's a 10 and I have 20 euros in there as well

00:20:10   the same reason. That's good. Same reason. Because you may pass through someplace that uses euros if

00:20:14   you go through Ireland or you go through anywhere, you know, Germany, something like that, to switch

00:20:19   planes. Okay, that's a fascinating detail, that you have Canadian money in there. But I don't

00:20:28   like my wallet. It's just not very nice. Is it a bi-fold or a tri-fold? It's a bi-fold. Okay,

00:20:34   good. Yeah, only John Saracusa seems to have the trifold. My wallet story is that I have

00:20:41   a black leather wallet that I think my wife bought for me, replacing a wallet that she

00:20:47   bought for another black leather wallet she bought for me like 15 years ago that had finally

00:20:51   fallen apart. I used to wear my—have my wallet in my back pocket, but in my 20s I

00:20:57   started to have hip pain, and it turns out that I actually have really slight hip dysplasia

00:21:02   that had never been diagnosed and does run in my family.

00:21:06   And so I, but the hip pain was bad enough that I started putting it in my front pocket

00:21:10   because the back pocket was, it was actually kind of painful to have anything in my back

00:21:13   pockets.

00:21:14   I did that for a little while and then I decided that, then like John said, I was like, I'm

00:21:19   just going to put this in my backpack most of the time and I don't need the wallet most

00:21:24   of the time.

00:21:25   So the funny thing is though, this is the wallet my wife bought for me.

00:21:27   It comes with the little mini wallet, little shuttlecraft.

00:21:32   I don't even know.

00:21:33   I think you're supposed to put things in it that you...

00:21:36   I don't even know the purpose of the little thing,

00:21:37   but it's like a little bi-fold thing inside the big wallet

00:21:42   that you can put your ID in.

00:21:44   I don't even know what's supposed to go in there.

00:21:45   Do you know what I'm talking about?

00:21:47   - The little window area.

00:21:49   - Yeah, well, this one has a...

00:21:50   It's like a removable thing.

00:21:51   It does have a little window thing,

00:21:52   but it's removable. - Oh, yeah, I have one of those.

00:21:54   - It's like a little probe spaceship

00:21:57   that comes out of the mothership and lands on the planet, right?

00:21:59   - You send the small wallet out, right?

00:22:01   - Exactly.

00:22:02   So the big one stays, big wallet stays in orbit, small one.

00:22:04   This is turning into like, I'm turning into Merlin Man

00:22:06   right before our eyes here.

00:22:07   This is, okay, anyway, anyway.

00:22:09   The, that's other follow out that we're not gonna do.

00:22:14   So that one, the Shuttlecraft wallet is now my wallet.

00:22:19   So I decided as nice as that other wallet was,

00:22:21   I took like four things and put it

00:22:24   in a little tiny Shuttlecraft wallet.

00:22:26   So I've got like a credit card, I think I've got my credit card and my ATM card, my driver's

00:22:32   license and like my medical insurance card so that again if they find me bleeding by

00:22:37   the side of the road they, you know, will pay for my hospital or whatever.

00:22:43   And that's basically it.

00:22:44   Sometimes I'll stick a bill in there, although I generally don't even carry cash.

00:22:49   And this is what fascinated me about that they're asking Jon about the wallet because

00:22:52   I'm on the other extreme. John's got like his library card in there and some like I

00:22:56   don't know for all I know.

00:22:57   He had like the the my favorite was the business card of the hairdresser.

00:23:05   Right you can put that in the you could actually put that in the and it's his barber who retired

00:23:09   that was the best part is that not only was it pointless before but now it's extra pointless.

00:23:14   So I just went I just kind of divested myself of all that stuff and and every now I've got

00:23:17   little stack of cards. I actually had that wallet too. The big wallet is on my armoire

00:23:25   in the basket full of like miscellaneous stuff. So if I need to fish out my loyalty card,

00:23:30   although every loyalty program just lets you put in your phone number so you don't actually

00:23:34   need the card number, but I can dig that stuff out if I need to have it. But I just I was

00:23:39   fascinated that this what a time to be alive with a wide range of human experiences. Everything

00:23:45   from John Siracusa's giant wallet over here to people who don't have giant wallets on

00:23:50   the other end I guess. Anyway, I was fascinated by that and now I know that you have Canadian

00:23:55   money in your wallet. That's great. If Guy English ever needs a loan, if Rene Ritchie

00:24:00   ever needs a loan, they can come to you.

00:24:02   They can call me up.

00:24:03   It's got the Queen on it, right? It's got to be practically. Does it have the Queen

00:24:08   on it? Or does it have some mysterious Canadian celebrity that nobody's ever heard of?

00:24:13   No, and they have more modern pictures of the Queen.

00:24:16   Oh, so it's older Queen, not like coronation era Queen.

00:24:19   We're saying, "No, no, no, she's still 25."

00:24:22   We're going for old Queen. Old Queen or no Queen.

00:24:26   I like old Queen, you know.

00:24:27   Like Bohemian Rhapsody.

00:24:28   Back when Freddie Mercury was still alive, yeah.

00:24:30   Hey, hey, hey, hey.

00:24:34   Let's take a sponsor break now.

00:24:36   Just one last thing.

00:24:37   When we were in San Francisco, Ren took a picture of the two of us

00:24:41   and said that it was like looking at father and son.

00:24:44   And I'm getting really concerned about this.

00:24:47   Like our humor is now starting to diverge.

00:24:49   - That's 'cause your beard makes you look that much older.

00:24:53   That's why she said that.

00:24:54   I'm your prematurely gray haired son and you're the...

00:24:57   Anyway, yeah, you know, Myke,

00:25:00   I have really enjoyed this part of the conversation,

00:25:03   which has been extremely bizarre.

00:25:05   I can't wait for the email from somebody who says,

00:25:07   "Stop having fun on your podcast.

00:25:10   I don't listen to it to hear you guys have fun.

00:25:12   Get to the serious business.

00:25:14   But we'll get to the serious business.

00:25:15   Don't send us that angry letter.

00:25:17   Because we'll get to the serious business in a moment after this word from our friends

00:25:21   at SMILE.

00:25:22   Right, Myke?

00:25:23   Yes, indeed.

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00:27:28   supporting this show and all of Relay FM.

00:27:30   - Yay.

00:27:33   - So, this, well yesterday, right, as we recorded this.

00:27:38   - We had, there's a show, there's an episode

00:27:41   that's like upgrade 41.9 that will never exist.

00:27:46   - Yeah.

00:27:47   - You and I were like rubbing our hands together.

00:27:48   We're like, oh yeah, we're in our document.

00:27:50   like, we're gonna really give it to Apple.

00:27:52   We're gonna back Taylor Swift.

00:27:54   We're gonna say why Apple, you know, doing a free trial

00:27:58   by not paying anybody for it was a questionable practice.

00:28:03   And then the story just totally turned around

00:28:07   at the end of the day.

00:28:08   Well, probably while you were asleep,

00:28:09   although your sleep has been so bad lately,

00:28:11   maybe you were awake then.

00:28:12   - No, I was asleep.

00:28:13   - You were asleep then.

00:28:14   Then the whole story turned around.

00:28:15   So you went to bed thinking that this show

00:28:17   was going to be about one thing.

00:28:19   And then it's totally changed overnight

00:28:23   while you were sleeping because Eddy Cue appeared on Twitter

00:28:26   and reversed things.

00:28:29   I guess we should back up.

00:28:31   But it's just such a dramatic change.

00:28:34   - Yeah, we should kind of give a little bit of a background

00:28:38   to understand what's happening

00:28:39   for anybody that isn't aware.

00:28:40   So when Apple unveiled their music service at WWDC,

00:28:45   they said that they were going to be doing three months free.

00:28:48   Everybody was going to get it, the first three months of Apple Music were going to be free.

00:28:54   In the same event they were talking about being fair to artists and offering paid services

00:28:59   and not free services because they feel like people need to get paid and they were talking

00:29:03   a lot about independence and stuff like that.

00:29:06   Since then there has been some grumbling about the free trial period but it's been mainly

00:29:11   ignored.

00:29:13   And after just seeing people on Twitter saying that there have been some small indie labels

00:29:18   and stuff like that that have been complaining about it. But then out of the blue on Sunday

00:29:22   morning, so Sunday the 21st, Taylor Swift writes on her Tumblr blog a very well written

00:29:33   open letter to Apple pointing out why she believes that the free period for Apple Music

00:29:41   is unacceptable because it is a three month trial where no artists would be paid during

00:29:45   that period of time. That's what Apple decided to do.

00:29:50   And then so basically you can imagine the internet caught fire. And as the day went

00:29:56   along, there was a lot more reports coming out and people were reminding others about

00:30:00   the fact that Apple were paying an extra 1.5% or something because of this free period,

00:30:07   which is kind of…

00:30:08   Well, well, yeah. Well, okay. So I'll stop you there just to say because I heard this

00:30:12   from people to. What Apple said is that the agreements they were reaching with labels

00:30:17   were for a bigger percentage than what other streaming services do, like, yeah, from 70

00:30:23   to 71 point something percent. Somebody did the math and figured out that, you know, it

00:30:29   would take a long time to get that money, to have that offset the freebie. But the way

00:30:34   Apple described it was so weaselly because it was sort of like, well, we negotiated a

00:30:38   a higher rate in part to be in part because we were asking for a longer period. I don't

00:30:46   know how linked to those really were or if that was just one of the things thrown in.

00:30:51   So I feel like they didn't say, "Well, this is why." It was more like, "Well, that's one

00:30:55   of the reasons why," and I kind of, you know, I think that's Weasley. I think that's not—I

00:31:01   don't think there's a direct clear linkage, so we shouldn't assume that that's the reason

00:31:05   that they're paying a higher percentage. It may also be for other things that they negotiated,

00:31:10   it may be because labels are—and record companies are—well, labels are record companies—labels

00:31:16   are wary of dealing with Apple, and so Apple needed to give them more in order to make—to

00:31:23   grease the skids. There are lots of reasons why they negotiated that rate. So anyway,

00:31:29   I just wanted to throw that in there, that it's not necessarily a trade-off of like,

00:31:35   give us three months free and we'll give you" and even the Apple statement says

00:31:38   you know it's one of the reasons not like the reason. So then basically as you

00:31:43   can imagine the day went on with people taking sites. Yes. For and against

00:31:49   Apple's decision on this. I don't understand how anybody could take a for

00:31:54   position but I guess we'll get to that in a minute. And then very late in the

00:31:59   evening what time was it in San Francisco? 830 and it was you know I

00:32:04   I think it was around 8 or 8.30, so 11, 11.30 Eastern Time.

00:32:08   Eddy Cue tweets a selection of tweets, basically saying,

00:32:12   "We love indie artists and they will be paid.

00:32:15   Don't worry, during that three-month period, Apple will pay."

00:32:19   And, you know, basically, "We hear you, Taylor Swift,

00:32:21   and indie artists love Apple," mimicking Taylor's big thing.

00:32:24   And then Eddy Cue made a selection of phone calls

00:32:27   to a bunch of journalists.

00:32:29   Yeah, talked to Bill Boyd.

00:32:30   Talked to Re/Code, I think.

00:32:32   Yep, Re/Code was one of them. Basically just kind of saying a few other little tidbits about all of this.

00:32:38   Basically just making sure that everybody had heard Apple on this and saying that...

00:32:42   Basically it's kind of a bit unclear how much people are being paid. I think you can kind of

00:32:48   read between the lines to say that Apple will pay the industry average for streaming during this period of time.

00:32:54   Yeah, and that's, you know, it's a little bit of damage control. I think it's interesting...

00:33:02   indie labels and artists were balking at this all along.

00:33:06   I mean there's so much here and it's so complicated that it's hard to,

00:33:10   if you're not inside in the industry, it's hard to

00:33:13   know all the details. It's so many different moving parts.

00:33:16   Yeah there's a lot of it that we can't understand being on the outside.

00:33:19   Exactly, exactly. My impression is that Apple made the announcement of Apple

00:33:23   Music without even having deals with most of the labels, which is

00:33:27   quite a game of chicken because they're basically saying, "Well we're launching it,

00:33:29   So are you in or are you out? And trying to shift it back and like put pressure on the labels

00:33:34   but the labels don't sign then Apple launches with some labels missing and

00:33:37   That's not good for I think that's worse for Apple than it is for the labels not being there

00:33:43   Yep, because people don't say all ex label. They just be like

00:33:47   App-wise this music not here. Yeah. Yeah, so

00:33:52   You know, there's so there's that whole aspect of it

00:33:55   The thing that got me

00:33:59   I mean, the Taylor Swift did this. I mean, she said, "Look, I'm fine, but I think this

00:34:04   is a problem for new musicians and independent artists because this is a bad deal." And she's

00:34:09   been really outspoken about this in withholding her album from Spotify. We've talked about

00:34:13   it in the past, this idea that we may end up with a situation where music streaming

00:34:20   services are more like Netflix than they are now in the sense that Netflix doesn't have

00:34:25   new releases. They age a little bit and then they show up on Netflix and that's because

00:34:30   the new releases they want you to pay to buy them or rent them. And that, you know, Taylor

00:34:35   Swift has done that to great success with her album 1989 that, you know, it's sold incredibly

00:34:43   well because you have to buy it. I mean, you can pirate it, but you can't stream it. You

00:34:47   have to buy it. And I think maybe that that's where this is going to go where big name releases

00:34:53   from big artists may not be streamable because--and that's a little more Netflix-y. But Taylor

00:34:59   Swift knows that she's not the best example here and that she wants artists to be compensated.

00:35:08   I think she's really smart and I think she's principled and she has a voice that can carry--obviously

00:35:18   happened. Carrie, further than an independent artist or label or even kind of a grousing

00:35:25   record label, can do some different things.

00:35:30   And she used her--

00:35:31   She's incredibly powerful, just fundamentally.

00:35:34   Yeah, she used her pulpit, she used her power to broadcast this message about Apple being

00:35:39   unfair. And what's funny is, I heard about this, what, a week or two ago, and when they

00:35:45   announced the Apple Music thing, I assumed that Apple was essentially paying for those

00:35:49   three months using their cash because they wanted to establish themselves and they got

00:35:53   to catch up with their competitors in streaming. When I heard that Apple was just going to

00:36:00   the labels and saying, "You're going to eat the three months," I thought that that was

00:36:05   ridiculous, right? But Taylor Swift is the one who made everybody know that, "Did you

00:36:10   You know that this is what's happening, that the most profitable company in the world is

00:36:15   asking the record labels and artists to forego their money for three months so that this

00:36:22   company can launch its service and catch up with its rivals?

00:36:26   The argument is that it's better for everybody if Apple comes in and succeeds with this because

00:36:32   Apple's not going to have a free tier like Spotify.

00:36:36   And I can see that argument, but I think it's a better argument to say, you know, you're

00:36:41   a giant company that has a lot of cash, and you're behind in an area that you want to

00:36:45   catch up.

00:36:47   Pay the money.

00:36:48   Like, pay the money.

00:36:49   Get behind.

00:36:50   If you want to launch this, you're not doing this because you want to save the music industry,

00:36:53   and you're not doing this because you want to give money to artists.

00:36:55   You're doing this because it's an important strategic business decision for Apple.

00:37:00   So you know what?

00:37:01   Pay the money.

00:37:02   I admit, if they can get—Eddie Q didn't get where he is by being a pushover, right?

00:37:09   He has a reputation for being a tough negotiator on this stuff. And so you could make the business

00:37:18   argument that if they can get away with this and play hardball and make everybody pay—the

00:37:24   whole music industry pays for Apple to launch its own service—then you could do that. But I would

00:37:29   say it looks bad, and I look at that and think, you know, why are you even bothering going

00:37:36   down this path? This is your business. You're the one who needs to catch up. You are not

00:37:43   an underdog in general. You've got the resources to do it. Just make it happen. Spend the money.

00:37:48   Make your service come out of the gate looking good rather than spending your two weeks before

00:37:54   trying to get every last dime out of these record company execs that you're dealing with.

00:38:01   It's like, you know, it's so it's complicated and I see both sides of it but in the end

00:38:06   what feels right to me is that Apple is trying to build a business in a new area where they're

00:38:12   behind and they're trying to make a name for themselves by giving away this free three

00:38:18   months trial which is very smart I think on their part but it seems wrong for them to

00:38:24   to make it seem like Apple's largess is the thing that's getting people to try this, when

00:38:28   in fact Apple's not actually giving anything away, they've just asked all the providers

00:38:33   to give it away for them in order for them to build the business. That just seems wrong

00:38:36   to me.

00:38:38   So you know, as you are, I'm a little bit frustrated that we didn't get to have this

00:38:42   conversation before Apple reversed the decision on it.

00:38:48   I think what's interesting about us having it afterward is that instead the conversation

00:38:55   is like, "Okay, well, obviously Apple either felt like they were losing face or people

00:39:04   inside Apple who've been saying all along this was the wrong approach have gotten got

00:39:09   that moment where they're like, "See? See?" But regardless, it is interesting that the

00:39:14   way Eddy Cue framed it was very much like, "You're right, we, you know, we respect artists.

00:39:20   We'll pay. We'll pay for it." And that, I think that's really interesting. I don't think

00:39:25   anybody's out there standing up and cheering like, "Yay, record companies get more money."

00:39:29   And it is true that record companies famously kind of screw over their artists and the artists

00:39:34   don't get a lot of money out of it. So it's not like it's necessarily like a victory for

00:39:39   the good guys or something like that, but it does feel, it does feel right and I think

00:39:44   what Apple was reacting to, is being seen as somebody, you know, Apple is a huge

00:39:49   company, they're not seen as an underdog who's trying to save music, and they

00:39:54   didn't want to be seen as trying to basically take money out of the hands of

00:39:59   artists, even though yes they're also taking money out of the hands of big

00:40:02   corporations that are record publishers.

00:40:04   Like, because if anything, Apple in

00:40:07   In regards to music, in 2015, Apple is closer to Walmart was in 2001 than Apple is to themselves.

00:40:20   Does that make sense?

00:40:21   They are close to the old dog than they are to actually what they were then.

00:40:27   Apple has great strength in so many different areas, but streaming music isn't one, so they

00:40:30   need to establish themselves.

00:40:34   Swift is interesting because she's got—her take on streaming in general is, like I said

00:40:41   before, it's interesting because she's looking at a bigger picture here about streaming

00:40:45   being problematic. People don't make a lot—artists don't make a lot of money from streaming

00:40:48   either. And that's part of the story here too. So I think there is some hope that Apple,

00:40:56   you know—is Apple going to change that? Maybe, maybe not. The more—the additional

00:41:01   percentage that they're paying is slight. It's not like Apple is gonna finally make

00:41:07   all the musical artists fine with streaming and the streaming economics.

00:41:13   I think there's a difference though in the way that it's happening because Apple is all

00:41:17   revenue and it's not advertised. I think there is more money to be made.

00:41:21   Yes, I agree. The person, you know, people who did the calculations would say that the

00:41:27   percentage that they're giving versus the three-month trial that the map, that map doesn't

00:41:34   really add up for a long time. It's, it's, that's not going to offset the three-month

00:41:37   free trial. But the idea that they're going to, Apple's going to push people to think

00:41:43   of streaming as something that is paid for, and that there isn't a free tier, and I'm

00:41:50   sure the music industry would really love it if the concept of something beyond something

00:41:54   like Pandora, if something like Spotify, where you can pick what you listen to, offers something

00:42:00   for free, I think the music industry would love for that to go away, and this be perceived

00:42:05   as a premium product. You get access to everything by paying, and then there would be more money,

00:42:10   I think they feel like there'd be more money in the pot.

00:42:13   I mean, I still have, I still want to say my piece on this, though, as to why I thought

00:42:18   that they were wrong, even though now, you know, it's been reversed, so they're packing

00:42:22   everybody's good books again I suppose but fundamentally my main problem with

00:42:28   this is and and I don't know why anybody can't see this is work for free for three

00:42:35   months just do that because that's what Apple were asking well I asked I got a

00:42:42   rise out of people on Twitter and I was being fully tongue-in-cheek but I said

00:42:47   you know, when HBO gives away the season premiere of all their shows twice a year

00:42:53   on a free preview weekend in order to get people to get excited, they pay, you

00:43:00   know, they're still paying for those shows. They don't ask everybody on those

00:43:04   shows to work the first show for free and then pay. And yes, that's not a

00:43:08   perfect concept, but think about that for a minute. Just because the distributor

00:43:12   wants to market their product doesn't mean the people who made the work that's

00:43:17   being distributed forego a salary. And that's essentially what Apple was doing here, is

00:43:22   that. The other example I would give, and I realize that I have a maybe unique perspective

00:43:29   in this, is I get my hackles up a little bit about Apple posing as the benefactor, when

00:43:37   in fact what they're doing is they're just taking the product of somebody else and acting

00:43:42   like they're the ones who are giving it to you. Because that's actually what happened

00:43:46   with Macworld for years is that when you bought a Mac,

00:43:49   you got a deal for like six free issues of Macworld.

00:43:52   And the way it was phrased was always

00:43:54   a gift from Apple to you.

00:43:55   Apple didn't pay for those issues.

00:44:00   That was entirely eaten by Macworld,

00:44:04   but Apple wanted it to seem like it was Apple's largess.

00:44:08   But behind the scenes, they just made us give it to them.

00:44:10   It was like, you wanna be in the box, you give free issues.

00:44:13   And that was a good deal, we agreed to it.

00:44:16   The thing that always bugged me was Apple wanted to seem like the good guy who was,

00:44:22   and leave the impression that it was Apple's...

00:44:24   - Apple paid for all of them.

00:44:26   - Apple took money out of its own pocket in order to make this ability, make this available

00:44:30   to you, and I got that exact same vibe from this, where it felt like, you know, Apple's

00:44:35   being generous with their trial period, but the generosity is not actually Apple's.

00:44:40   Somebody else behind the scenes that Apple's not gonna even let you know about, that's

00:44:43   the actual person who's doing this and giving it away and Apple's just basking in the benefits

00:44:48   of it. That set me off a little bit too.

00:44:52   I also have no time for the arguments of "Taylor Swift is greedy". Like, I have no time for

00:44:59   that argument because she doesn't need this money. She has proven streaming is not important

00:45:06   to her business succeeding, right? She made that decision. I genuinely believe she did

00:45:11   this because it is something she feels strongly about. And she has made a difference for other

00:45:17   people because this is not important to her. By all accounts, it is still not even known

00:45:24   if 1989 will be on Apple Music. As Kyle's the Grey and the Jackman pointed out, it wasn't on Beats

00:45:32   and Beats was fully paid. I think at this point though, I wouldn't be surprised if part of Eddie's

00:45:37   conversation with Taylor when he caught up, as you've caused us a lot of problems today,

00:45:41   we would really appreciate it if you would do us a solid here and we'll pretend this never happened.

00:45:47   I feel like there might be a little checkmate here of like, you know, you can't play the card of,

00:45:54   "Well, 1989 won't be on Apple and here's why," and then Apple changed their mind. Don't you kind of

00:45:59   have to give it to them? And wouldn't that be a coup for Apple to say, "First time on streaming,

00:46:03   1989, here it is." Yeah, and I think that that will happen now.

00:46:06   I think it has to, even if it's not as good a deal for Taylor Swift, but maybe that's, you know,

00:46:12   maybe that's part of her calculation too, is if they'll do this right then I'll help, you know,

00:46:18   I'll pitch in and be a part of this launch and give them a little more credibility because

00:46:24   they're asking for people to pay after the three months are over. I was just finding myself getting

00:46:29   so angry about this yesterday, because I was putting myself in the position of, and this is,

00:46:34   There are a lot of holes in this argument, so you're just going to have to bear with me metaphorically.

00:46:38   Let's say that Apple decide that they're going to do a new podcasting service,

00:46:42   and it's going to be awesome, it's going to be great, it's going to be everything we've ever wanted.

00:46:47   And they contact us and they say, "We want you to be a part of it, but you can't have your ads for three months."

00:46:52   And it'd be like, "Okay, it would be really great to be on your service, but now I can't eat."

00:47:00   Because the problem is, and I think that maybe some people haven't considered this,

00:47:05   when you have a three month period, a quarter of the year,

00:47:10   a quarter of the year, if you think about it that way, you can kind of maybe put in perspective as

00:47:14   to how long that is, people are going to cancel their Spotify subscriptions. Beats no longer

00:47:20   exists. It's actually negative money for artists in this scenario, because not only are they not

00:47:26   getting paid by Apple, they're not getting their revenues from other services as well.

00:47:30   No one's gonna buy their music during this period who has an iPhone because they can

00:47:34   listen to it for free.

00:47:36   The knock-on effect of a three-month free trial would have been way larger than just

00:47:42   people listening to our music on Apple's music service and we're not getting the money for

00:47:45   it.

00:47:46   They would also be losing money on music downloads and streams from Apple avenues as well because

00:47:52   people would be using Apple Music instead.

00:47:55   There were so many problems with this and I'm very pleased that they have decided to

00:47:59   make this decision. It just annoys me that they had to go through all of this before

00:48:03   they did that. And it also frustrates me in the thought that I love Apple as a company,

00:48:09   and I do not like the thought that they are going into these negotiations and being like,

00:48:14   "You can't touch us."

00:48:16   I'm not sure that there is anything slimier than a music industry negotiation.

00:48:22   Oh, of course.

00:48:23   And I feel like everybody who comes out of there needs to get hosed down, and that includes

00:48:28   and I think that maybe is, like I said earlier, you know, Eddy Cue, I think one of the reasons

00:48:33   that Eddy Cue has been successful, from what I hear, is that he's good at that, you know,

00:48:37   and now they've got Jimmy Iovine in there too, right? So they've got these people making

00:48:43   these negotiations, but the whole thing is slimy, and, you know, and yes, the labels

00:48:48   are screwing the artists out of money, and I mean, there's so many things that are messed

00:48:53   up about the music industry. But, um, and so I guess what I'm saying is I agree with

00:48:59   you, and yet I also kind of have to accept that for Apple to play this game, they have

00:49:04   to play this game. And the Apple, there's Apple like in industries where Apple can make

00:49:12   their own way, and that's with technology stuff. But once you get into entertainment,

00:49:18   harder because there are entrenched players and there is a whole different kind of politics

00:49:26   and Apple isn't, I think, able to play by the same playbook that it uses when it's doing

00:49:34   products and, you know, doing hardware and software. And this is, I think, a really great

00:49:39   example of it, the fact that the Apple TV hasn't come out and that they're still negotiating

00:49:44   on the service stuff, the story behind the original iTunes Music Store launch, I mean,

00:49:49   these are all weird, probably kind of gross, negotiations going on behind the scenes to

00:49:56   make this stuff happen. And, you know, this is, in one way, this is a little like, you

00:50:01   know, seeing how the sausage is made by having this come out in public. It may be that all

00:50:05   sorts of terrible deals are made behind the scenes. In fact, it's almost certain that

00:50:09   terrible deals are made behind the scenes. But this one was either beyond the pale a

00:50:13   a little bit or for whatever reason in the big,

00:50:18   musicians are really upset about streaming in general

00:50:20   'cause streaming doesn't pay very well.

00:50:22   So if streaming is the future,

00:50:26   I don't think anything here has resolved the issue of,

00:50:29   can musicians make any money?

00:50:31   Like people would hit songs and hit albums

00:50:34   don't make money from streaming.

00:50:36   So make chump change.

00:50:39   So that issue is still there.

00:50:40   So there's all, it's just, it's complicated.

00:50:42   And I think that at some point if you're Apple,

00:50:44   you're like, we think we can make the world

00:50:45   a little bit better,

00:50:47   but we can't make it much more than that at this point

00:50:49   because of who we're dealing with.

00:50:51   I do think that's a part of this.

00:50:53   I wanted to say, somebody mentioned the theory,

00:50:56   and this is kind of a conspiracy theory,

00:50:57   but I think it's interesting.

00:50:58   The idea that once Apple is up and running with all of this,

00:51:01   then stage two is Apple starts providing more access to,

00:51:06   basically what the conspiracy theory was,

00:51:08   then Apple can become its own record label

00:51:10   and cut direct deals with musicians and change the terms.

00:51:15   And that would be an interesting thing that maybe could change the economics of the music

00:51:19   industry.

00:51:20   I'm skeptical of that, which is why I label it as a conspiracy theory, but you never know.

00:51:24   Yeah, I don't know how I feel about that.

00:51:27   I feel like you don't want to do a publicity stunt for super bad publicity.

00:51:32   That seems crazy.

00:51:33   Oh, I certainly agree with that.

00:51:34   I don't think this was a publicity stunt at all.

00:51:38   I think there's damage control.

00:51:40   I think Apple was hoping that they would just make these deals and they'd be able to play

00:51:45   hardball and get everybody to agree to the three months free because they want a counterbalance

00:51:50   to Spotify and somebody who is on their side in the sense of not offering a free tier and

00:51:55   that they figured in the end it would all--everybody would play ball.

00:51:59   And it turns out that they were pushing a little too hard and that Taylor Swift was

00:52:03   the voice that elevated it to the point--got it out in the open and then they felt like,

00:52:08   Well, now that it's out in the open, it's not really defensible, so we're just gonna

00:52:10   have to back off and do some damage control.

00:52:12   I think that's -- ultimately, I think that's what happened here.

00:52:15   Okay, Jason, I'm getting too sad, so let's move on and we can talk about something maybe

00:52:22   a little bit more fun.

00:52:23   Yeah, now I got bad blood.

00:52:27   I could be -- I could drop Taylor Swift references all day, but we should --

00:52:30   Oh, yeah?

00:52:31   Yeah.

00:52:32   Are you a fan?

00:52:33   I'm from the 80s, and 1989 is a great combination of sort of like love of 1980s music and modern

00:52:41   pop stuff. I love modern pop music. Yeah, no, I like Taylor Swift. My daughter introduced

00:52:46   me to Taylor Swift. That is a thing that lots of dads say.

00:52:50   I keep meaning to listen to that album, though, so maybe I'll wait to see if it comes up on

00:52:55   Apple Music.

00:52:56   See if it comes up. It's good. I like it a lot. And it's got an Image and Heap song on

00:52:59   at the end. It's like literally all the instruments are played by Image and Heap and then it's

00:53:05   just co-written by Taylor Swift and Image and Heap. It's pretty cool and she's one of

00:53:09   my favorites so that was kind of a fun discovery that they collaborated on a track on that

00:53:15   album.

00:53:16   Alright, sponsor time.

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00:56:02   Video games!

00:56:03   >> I mentioned this briefly. I ordered an Xbox One last week when Microsoft announced

00:56:08   they were going to bring Xbox 360 compatibility by the end of the year. That was sort of enough

00:56:13   to push me over the edge and with it with kids graduations coming I thought

00:56:17   that it might make a good surprise gift so I can run I want to report back on

00:56:23   that which is I ordered it from Amazon it's a refurbished Xbox one I ordered

00:56:28   with gift wrapping got a nice box with blue gift wrapping on it kids got to

00:56:36   got to that gift and tore open the wrapping paper and both of them like

00:56:41   freaked out. I was really expecting it to be like, "Oh, it's a console," whatever, that

00:56:45   they were both like, "Oh, I can't believe it!" They were both super excited, which was

00:56:48   great. And my wife and I were thinking of getting them an additional, like, promise

00:56:51   of an additional present. And we looked at each other and we're like, "Yeah, we don't

00:56:54   need to do that now." It was like, "This one hit. This is a hit. We're just gonna leave

00:56:59   it here." So I've got that set up. I actually haven't bought any games for it yet. I'm open

00:57:07   into suggestions, you know, we have Destiny on the Xbox 360.

00:57:11   I might at some point just buy it for the one,

00:57:14   just for the upgraded graphics,

00:57:16   but I am looking for some good games to buy,

00:57:20   you know, ideally games that, you know,

00:57:22   a 10, 11 year old and a 13, 14 year old would play,

00:57:26   although cool, you know, indie-ish games like Journey,

00:57:29   those kind of atmospheric games for grownups to play,

00:57:34   I'd be interested in too.

00:57:36   So if people have feedback or if you have feedback,

00:57:38   I would love to hear that.

00:57:40   They haven't played it though,

00:57:42   because we also bought them a bunch of Wii U games,

00:57:43   because we have a Wii U and we got them,

00:57:46   my son wanted Lego Batman 3 and he and my wife

00:57:49   were playing that actually the last couple of days.

00:57:51   We got Mario Party 10, which is a huge amount of fun.

00:57:54   And we played that some.

00:57:56   And then we got Splatoon, which is spectacularly good.

00:58:00   And has been-

00:58:01   - Splatoon is one of my favorite games of the year so far.

00:58:05   - It's so good. - I love that game so much.

00:58:08   So much.

00:58:09   - So remind me, so what consoles do you have?

00:58:12   - All of them.

00:58:13   - You have all the consoles, okay.

00:58:14   All the great consoles.

00:58:15   - All the great consoles.

00:58:16   - Okay, Splatoon, well we should play sometime.

00:58:19   It's great.

00:58:21   It is so, I mean my son went from level one

00:58:24   to level like 14 in a day.

00:58:27   'Cause he's just like, I gotta keep playing,

00:58:29   I gotta keep playing.

00:58:30   But it is super fun.

00:58:31   And when we did our incomparable podcast

00:58:34   about, I keep wanting to say Halo, about Portal.

00:58:39   I kept talking about how I really enjoyed

00:58:43   just making a mess with the goo

00:58:44   that comes out of the various Portal things

00:58:46   and just like painting the walls of the levels in Portal 2

00:58:51   with all the different kind of goo

00:58:54   that come out of little goo dispensers.

00:58:56   And so then I see Splatoon and I'm like, oh yeah.

00:58:59   It's just, that's what you do is paint,

00:59:02   cover things with paint, cover things with ink.

00:59:05   And the game mechanic is really good,

00:59:06   the multiplayer stuff is good.

00:59:08   My son's really enjoying the single player as well.

00:59:11   It's just a really great game.

00:59:12   And I love that it's,

00:59:14   you know, it's the stuff that I love the most

00:59:17   about multiplayer stuff, which is it's quick.

00:59:20   They auto match everything,

00:59:21   unless you've got a bunch of friends

00:59:22   that you wanna play with.

00:59:23   They're just auto matching levels.

00:59:25   You play for three minutes.

00:59:27   There's a winner and a loser.

00:59:28   It's based entirely on how much of the map

00:59:31   is covered with your color ink at the end,

00:59:34   which is a great simple way of understanding it.

00:59:37   And it uses the Wii U game pad to effect.

00:59:41   I always get sad when there are these Wii U games

00:59:43   that just mirror what's on the screen,

00:59:46   on the TV screen on the game pad,

00:59:47   because if you're gonna build a console

00:59:51   where the controller has its own screen in it,

00:59:53   you should take advantage of it.

00:59:54   And Splatoon does that too.

00:59:57   So it checked all the boxes for me.

00:59:58   I think it's really great.

01:00:01   Yeah, it is just a fantastic game.

01:00:03   I really, really like it a lot.

01:00:05   I've been playing it a ton.

01:00:06   It has kind of everything a Nintendo game should have in it.

01:00:13   It's fun and it's colorful.

01:00:14   The music is just superb.

01:00:16   - I know. - And they make a big point

01:00:18   of the music in that game.

01:00:20   They're adding tons of content,

01:00:22   new maps and new weapons over the last few weeks.

01:00:25   This is, I think I read this,

01:00:28   and I think I got the numbers right.

01:00:29   This is the first new brand new Nintendo IP in 10 years?

01:00:34   - Yeah, I mean, they have the, the squid thing, right?

01:00:37   So it's sort of attached to some character

01:00:40   that you've seen before, but--

01:00:42   - Uh, not really.

01:00:44   - I know where you're going with that.

01:00:45   - Well, I mean, I feel like,

01:00:46   I feel like that is their tenuous connection

01:00:48   to the Nintendo IP is like,

01:00:50   hey, you've seen those squids, like, you know,

01:00:53   it's the squid from Mario Kart, right?

01:00:56   But really it is completely original

01:00:58   from all that I can tell.

01:01:00   It's not like you're, you know, I'll be Yoshi.

01:01:04   You know, you're all just these people

01:01:06   and they turn into squids when they're in the ink.

01:01:08   And it's brilliant.

01:01:09   I mean, it really is brilliant.

01:01:10   This is one of those things.

01:01:11   This is why, like when I listen to Isometric,

01:01:13   I hear this a lot.

01:01:14   The, you know, there's the talk about the Wii U.

01:01:16   It's like, the Wii U is great.

01:01:18   It is not, it is a shame that it's not doing better.

01:01:22   Although I understand why it's not doing better.

01:01:24   But if once you come to accept that what the Wii U is gonna do is give you great first-party games,

01:01:30   and not a lot else, it's great at the first-party games. The first-party games are like,

01:01:38   I'm happy we have a Wii U. I don't feel bad. Not only does it play all the old Wii games,

01:01:42   some of which we still play, but the new Mario Kart is great, Mario Party 10 is great,

01:01:46   Splatoon is fantastic, the Mario 3D World is good, you know, and actually this port

01:01:53   that my son got of the LEGO Batman 3 is one of those examples where

01:01:57   it's actually been built to take advantage of that gamepad where one

01:02:02   player can play on the gamepad and another player can play on the screen so

01:02:05   instead of having to do a zoom out or a split screen

01:02:08   two people can just play and they're in the same world but they both have their

01:02:11   perspectives which is a really nice thing that I kind of assumed wouldn't be

01:02:14   there because that's a Wii U specific

01:02:16   feature but it's there which is great so so I like that I really like the Wii U I

01:02:20   I totally get that if you're committed to, you know, major game releases, it's gonna

01:02:24   be a disappointment because it's not gonna get them.

01:02:28   But something like Splatoon is the flip side of that, I feel like, where it's like, that

01:02:31   is why Nintendo is good at what they do.

01:02:34   So something like, in regards to that, me and Federico, we just wrapped up our E3 coverage,

01:02:41   and one of our episodes is about Nintendo and what they had to show at E3, and it is

01:02:46   not good.

01:02:47   do not have a lot coming between now and the end of the year that is really that

01:02:52   great I mean they're big they have kind of two games that are on slate between

01:02:56   now and the end of the year which is Yoshi's Woolly World which looks like the

01:02:59   cutest video game ever made it looks amazing well the Kirby's Epic Yarn was a

01:03:04   favorite of both Lauren and Julian they both love that game. Then they are going to love Yoshi's Woolly World.

01:03:11   Oh no we'll be getting that on day one. You've got to pre-order that with the Yarn Amiibo

01:03:17   that's what you need to do. Huh. We haven't done the amiibo thing. They have

01:03:21   made a amiibo out of a yarn Yoshi. It's actually made of yarn. It's the best. I

01:03:29   have one on pre-order already. And they also have Super Mario Maker. Oh yeah, I've

01:03:38   read about that. Where you make your own, you get to make your own levels. Yep. That

01:03:42   is their big game for the rest of the year which is not that is not enough it

01:03:48   really isn't enough for the only basically Mario maker kind of looks like

01:03:57   a mini game in essence just a game creation game it's not there's not

01:04:04   really a lot to it and I think that they're gonna they're gonna struggle the

01:04:08   end of this year with the offering that they've got they were supposed to have

01:04:12   Oh, they also got Star Fox, but Star Fox I'm not that interested in. They were supposed to have an incredible looking New Zelda game

01:04:17   But it's delayed. I'm excited about the Star Fox thing because I like I like those kind of games. I like the the spaceship

01:04:23   flying kind of game that yeah, I would have been excited about it and then they showed it. Oh

01:04:30   Yeah, that's the problem

01:04:33   In theory it's gonna be great because

01:04:37   everyone's been waiting for this game for a long time, it looks like it was made for the GameCube.

01:04:43   That is sad.

01:04:44   Yeah, it's not... it's not good. This is their problem right now.

01:04:49   They are... they seem to be not in a very good state with their game... gaming offerings, which is a shame.

01:04:55   Well Splatoon, which came out this year, is a winner. That is a legitimately fantastic game.

01:05:02   And if somebody, you know, if you have access to a Wii U or somebody who's got it,

01:05:06   I cannot recommend it highly enough. It's, yeah, it's just, you could, and you can play

01:05:11   it endlessly, endlessly if you want to, because of the different maps and the way that they

01:05:18   match up the multiplayer stuff, and it's just, it's just incredibly well done. And as somebody

01:05:22   who, you know, spent a lot of time trying to do multiplayer stuff on the original Xbox

01:05:27   and deal with just jerks on the internet who are playing games, that's the other nice thing

01:05:31   about the way it works is that it's a good online playing experience from Nintendo, which

01:05:36   is not—didn't used to be a thing that you could say about anything, ever. But it's good.

01:05:43   It's well matched, and you don't have jerks who are, you know, who are messing up your

01:05:48   game and, you know, using questionable names and questionable icons. It's all kind of safe

01:05:55   and fun, and everybody's having a good time, and I appreciate that a lot.

01:06:00   - Yeah, I mean, the more I've played it,

01:06:03   the more I'm starting to see the traditional

01:06:06   Call of Duty tactics.

01:06:08   - Sure.

01:06:09   - Jumping a lot and stuff like that,

01:06:11   but that's gonna happen.

01:06:12   - Yeah, sure.

01:06:13   - But one of the great things about it is you can hide.

01:06:18   - Yes, you can.

01:06:21   You can hide in the ink.

01:06:22   - And you can just do your own thing.

01:06:23   I mean, you can run around and just paint the environment.

01:06:26   You don't have to run into the fray.

01:06:28   - Right, well, and you could actually argue that

01:06:30   - One of the nice things about it is that I'm not sure strategically if all you're

01:06:36   doing is shooting other people. I'm not sure that that's the best strategy in

01:06:40   that game. - Right? Because you need to have paint coverage everywhere and if

01:06:44   you're busy just kind of like going after the other players you will, you

01:06:47   know, paint as you do that but if your whole team is just doing that you're

01:06:51   gonna lose because that's not enough. You've got a... because they're gonna go

01:06:55   behind you and they're gonna paint more area than you are and, you know, if you're

01:06:59   hanging out in the middle you're not gonna get that I like that I mean

01:07:02   there's a limit to that you're right it is first-person shooter tactics after a

01:07:05   while but you know it's all with paint which I also like it's just you know

01:07:10   it's added a little quirkiness and gentleness to it I think it's good what

01:07:15   should I what should I look for on the Xbox one since you've got all the

01:07:17   consoles there has not been a lot really I mean just in general there have not

01:07:23   been a lot of exciting games I'm looking at Ori and the Blind Forest

01:07:27   for a journey-like experience, people recommend that.

01:07:30   - I've not played that.

01:07:31   - Yeah.

01:07:32   - But I've heard good things about that game.

01:07:34   I mean, this is, depending on how serious you wanna get,

01:07:40   the new Batman game, Arkham Knight.

01:07:43   - Oh yeah, I've heard about that.

01:07:45   - Comes out tomorrow, and Polygon,

01:07:48   my website of choice for these things,

01:07:50   gave it a 10 out of 10.

01:07:52   - Wow.

01:07:52   - I have it arriving tomorrow.

01:07:55   I am unfortunately then going away for a few days,

01:07:57   But I look forward to playing it because that 10 out of 10 is a good score.

01:08:04   And that is as good as you can get.

01:08:06   And there are not a lot of games that get that and Polygon are very tight with their

01:08:11   perfect game scores.

01:08:12   So I am excited about playing that game definitely.

01:08:16   So I'll let you know that.

01:08:17   Arkham Knight could be the first really really big good game of this console generation.

01:08:25   towards the end of this year there's going to be a lot more. E3 had a lot of really interesting

01:08:30   and exciting things and there's going to be some cool stuff for Xbox. There is a game that you would

01:08:36   love... what is it called? I think something... Cup? What is the name? Cuphead.

01:08:47   It is hand drawn animation in the style of Steamboat Willie.

01:08:53   Wow.

01:08:55   It looks just superb.

01:08:58   Oh I see, I see.

01:08:59   Every frame or every like every animation is hand drawn and they've shown this off at two E3s now

01:09:08   and it looks just incredible and apparently is a really really fun game to play as well.

01:09:16   Okay. Well I may turn to you in the future for more advice about this because we're gonna start

01:09:22   getting into the Xbox One now that it's uh now that we've got that we've got one more console

01:09:26   than I'd like but you know the we'll start investing in Xbox One games um not in Xbox 360

01:09:32   games anymore and then hopefully the Xbox 360 games that we still want to play will end up

01:09:38   cranking through Microsoft's thing that they're doing eventually and we'll at some point be able

01:09:44   to kiss the Xbox 360 goodbye and just play on the Xbox One because that's

01:09:49   that's always the hurdle for me is you know I don't want to I don't want to add

01:09:53   consoles I would prefer to swap in a new console for an old console and I just

01:09:57   added one which I'm not thrilled about and I still don't have a ps4 but you

01:10:01   know what you're gonna do they'll do that HD remake of journey and then I'll

01:10:05   feel the pull of the ps4 yep you right it's gonna happen all right should we

01:10:12   move on to #AskUpgrade? Great idea, let's do that. Alright, so as always, our good friends

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01:13:02   - So our first Ask Upgrade question this week

01:13:06   comes from @marcintosh on Twitter, very clever.

01:13:09   iOS 9 moves search back to the swipe right

01:13:12   on the first home screen versus the iOS 8 swipe down

01:13:14   on any home screen.

01:13:16   Thoughts?

01:13:17   It's both.

01:13:18   - Yeah.

01:13:19   - Is the answer, which is kind of interesting.

01:13:21   I don't know why it's both, but it is both.

01:13:24   You can do the search by swiping across to the right

01:13:28   or down from the top?

01:13:30   - Well, so at least in the iOS 9 beta,

01:13:35   which, you know, it's just a first beta at this point,

01:13:39   maybe there'll be a second soon,

01:13:40   and everything can change.

01:13:43   But it looks now like the difference is,

01:13:45   if you swipe down, what you get is a search box

01:13:48   with your cursor already, you know, insertion point blinking

01:13:51   and your keyboard comes up and you can quickly type

01:13:53   a search.

01:13:54   Whereas if you're moving to that page, that earlier page,

01:13:57   What you're getting is the Apple equivalent of Google Now,

01:14:00   you're getting the smart, you know,

01:14:02   like here's what's going on right now,

01:14:03   here are people that you care about,

01:14:05   and news that's happening,

01:14:07   and you know, context relevant suggestions,

01:14:10   and there's a search box and you can start typing.

01:14:12   So I think that's,

01:14:14   I think that's the reason they have it in two places is,

01:14:17   are you just quickly searching for something,

01:14:18   or do you wanna see this page

01:14:21   that is providing you with information

01:14:23   so you never need to type anything?

01:14:25   I like it.

01:14:27   I think it's a nice idea.

01:14:29   I don't mind having that on page zero of the home screen.

01:14:33   I think that's probably the best place to put it.

01:14:35   So I'm okay that they brought it back

01:14:37   given that what's on there is content now

01:14:40   and not just a search box.

01:14:43   I think the search box,

01:14:44   having a search box as page zero

01:14:46   is a little bit stranger to me

01:14:47   than having a page of stuff

01:14:50   that Apple thinks you might wanna see as page zero.

01:14:54   - I'm happy with it.

01:14:56   actually found a new... sorry, a couple of pieces of news that were... I wanted to

01:15:03   know randomly just by going to that page to search for things. See? It's working

01:15:08   already. Seriously, like there was... I was going to Foo Fighters concert but it got

01:15:15   cancelled because Dave Grohl fell off a stage and broke his leg. Yeah! He kept on

01:15:20   playing rock and roll. Exactly, I found out that my concert was cancelled via

01:15:25   that service. So sad news for me because I was very very excited about it

01:15:30   but you know it gave me the information that I needed to know. At 747 captain

01:15:36   asked me what airline did I fly from SFO that had onboard Wi-Fi and it was

01:15:41   United. They're on to us Myke. The 747 captains are on to us. United. But it wasn't

01:15:48   were you and you were direct going back so yes that's that United I've been on

01:15:52   that flight the SFO to Heathrow direct on United mm-hmm yeah and I was very

01:15:58   happy about it interesting interesting very happy and now you know what else so

01:16:06   we have another question here from Jimmy and Jimmy has asked if we have tried the

01:16:11   knock watch app this is knock is an app that allows you to unlock your Mac

01:16:16   previously by tapping on your phone screen but now it has a watch app as

01:16:21   well to unlock. Have you used this? I have. I think it's a great idea

01:16:27   and I think adding the watch app makes it that much greater of an idea. Although,

01:16:33   you know, you have to launch the app and wait. But it's a good idea made probably

01:16:38   better by native version of it coming with watchOS 2. However, I no longer

01:16:46   live... I no longer work in a place where I feel the need to lock my stuff. When I

01:16:52   when I was at IDG and I had like budgets and lists of people who we were laying

01:16:57   off and stuff like that, I had it locked. You know, I had my computer locked and

01:17:02   you know you had to enter in a password every time to get into it. I don't do

01:17:07   that here because I'm at home and I'm not concerned about it anymore. If I were

01:17:11   still at work I would absolutely get this and use it because I like the

01:17:16   convenience of it that it's a you know it's a it's not quite unlocking because

01:17:20   it knows that it's you but it's pretty close and I think that's a good idea and

01:17:23   I think this is one of those areas where we're gonna see more I feel like I don't

01:17:27   know what the details are but I feel like we're gonna see more of this from

01:17:29   Apple that this is gonna be one of those areas where Apple pushes this forward is

01:17:33   you know more biometric stuff to make things more secure without making them

01:17:39   more complicated because that it seems to be to be exactly what Apple is all

01:17:44   about. And then we have Kevin do your watches feel warm in the morning after

01:17:52   charging overnight? Yes mine does it does feel warm. It always freaks me out a

01:17:56   little bit. I haven't noticed that at all. So I don't know maybe maybe my room is

01:18:04   cooler than yours and I honestly I don't know. It's always warm when I put it on in the

01:18:10   morning. So it doubles the charger doubles as a watch warmer. Or a fire

01:18:16   starter depending on how that ends up going. I bought that dock by the way. I

01:18:20   think I bought it during the show last week. The elevation dock thing? No the the

01:18:25   the one that's on its side that comes on it's side. Yeah that's from Elevation Labs. Oh is that Elevation Lab? Yeah.

01:18:31   Yeah the nightstand I did buy that. I haven't gotten it yet but I bought it.

01:18:36   Isn't that like the story of Elevation Doc's history?

01:18:40   Just I haven't gotten it yet.

01:18:42   Yeah, I paid for it, but you know,

01:18:44   they said they shipped it, I think.

01:18:45   So I guess we'll see.

01:18:48   I can track my shipment, but I did,

01:18:52   because I like that idea.

01:18:53   I don't, my watch is like sliding around.

01:18:55   I could have just taped down the charger or something,

01:18:58   but I kind of like the idea.

01:19:00   It's that, that fits on my little nightstand that I've got.

01:19:02   I think having a place to park the watch

01:19:05   at the end of the day is a good thing.

01:19:06   so I'm looking forward to using that.

01:19:09   It's my, it is expected to be delivered today, I'm told.

01:19:15   - Oh wow, look at that.

01:19:16   Maybe it could arrive during the show, imagine.

01:19:19   - Imagine the possibilities, like that iPad Air 2

01:19:22   that I bought that arrived during the show last week.

01:19:26   - Could have a live audio unboxing.

01:19:28   - Yeah, that would be nothing more exciting

01:19:29   than opening a box in audio form.

01:19:31   Wrestling of cardboard.

01:19:35   Kyle's the Gray would like to know,

01:19:36   have you ordered a new Kindle yet?

01:19:38   (laughing)

01:19:40   - So the story here for Kyle Seth Gray,

01:19:43   and that's how you say that name,

01:19:44   but you're never gonna do it.

01:19:45   Kyle's the Gray.

01:19:47   - Kyle's the Gray.

01:19:48   - Nope, so Kyle asks this because there's a new version

01:19:50   of the Paperwhite, which is coming out

01:19:53   toward the end of the month.

01:19:54   I don't think it's out yet.

01:19:56   And it's, so the Paperwhite is not the one

01:19:59   that came out last year, the Voyage.

01:20:01   They kept the Paperwhite around

01:20:02   and they seem to have updated it this time.

01:20:03   It's got a higher resolution screen.

01:20:05   It's more like the Kindle Voyage screen,

01:20:08   although my understanding is the Kindle Voyage screen

01:20:11   is still better in some ways,

01:20:13   but the two are closer together than they were before.

01:20:16   The Voyage is smaller and lighter than the Paperwhite

01:20:20   and has these little page turning buttons on the side

01:20:24   that you can kind of squeeze and it turns,

01:20:25   it vibrates a little and turns the page.

01:20:28   And that's, the Voyage is more expensive than the Paperwhite.

01:20:31   I haven't ordered it because I have a voyage and a paperweight, and I like them both, and

01:20:36   I think my wife basically has received the paperweight from me, and I'm happy to use

01:20:41   the Kindle Voyage.

01:20:43   If they—I would be intrigued by a new upgrade to their line that added, you know, physical

01:20:50   turn buttons instead of the sort of squeeze turn buttons that they've got now, and you

01:20:53   can refer to our whole episode that we did with Scott McNulty about the Kindle back in

01:20:57   episode—what was it, like eight or something?

01:21:00   time ago. But I haven't ordered this because it's just a Paperwhite upgrade and I've already

01:21:05   got the Voyage which is better than it. However, I will say this. If you're looking for an

01:21:10   e-book reader, if you're looking for a dedicated e-ink reader, which I love because they're

01:21:14   great for reading text, they're not distracting because they don't have apps that'll let you

01:21:19   flip over and check your email and Twitter and stuff like that, they're simple, they're

01:21:23   light, the battery lasts a long time, they're great for reading outside and in, they light

01:21:27   themselves now, they've got their own backlighting so you don't have to like

01:21:30   strap a book light to them. If you're in the market for something like that,

01:21:35   I don't recommend the Voyage because I think it's too expensive for what it is,

01:21:38   and especially now, I was already saying you should buy the Paperwhite, but now

01:21:41   you should really. I think the Paperwhite is the one to buy.

01:21:44   Even though I don't love the fact that you have to tap on the touch screen to

01:21:47   turn the pages, the fact that it is a really nice e-ink

01:21:51   screen and it's got its own lighting built

01:21:54   into it. That's the one that I would recommend because the Amazon's library is fantastic.

01:21:59   Apparently there's a—I want to say there's a Nook reader. Is it the Nook reader? There's

01:22:04   a—there's a—maybe not—there's another reader out there that actually sounds like

01:22:09   it's better than the Kindle in terms of the hardware, but, you know, Amazon's ecosystem

01:22:13   is so good at this point that it's very hard for me to recommend another ebook reader other

01:22:18   than a Kindle, but there are other readers out there that are—that are good, but I

01:22:24   I would recommend the Paperwhite if you're looking for a Kindle, not the Voyage.

01:22:27   New Paperwhite looks good in that way.

01:22:30   Last question from Nathan.

01:22:32   To get Google Now-like functionality, would you be willing to give Apple your data if

01:22:36   they didn't sell it to advertisers?

01:22:42   Interesting question.

01:22:43   I mean, if there's a privacy policy and they say, you know, we're not...

01:22:49   I would probably not have a problem, but then I use Google and you use Google.

01:22:53   I don't know if you would not have a problem. Is the issue selling it to

01:22:56   advertisers? Is it the issue that since it's going to be decrypted on Apple

01:22:59   servers it's accessible to the government? I think there are lots of

01:23:03   different issues. I'm not not having my information aggregated and sold to

01:23:08   advertisers is maybe not my top issue with having the servers be able to scan

01:23:15   my data. I would do it. You would do it? Yeah for the same reasons that I give

01:23:22   Google my data, like, I would do it. I'd be happy to do it. If it meant I got you

01:23:27   genuine utility out of it, then I would be willing to do it, yeah.

01:23:30   Yeah, I think I agree. And the issue here is, as Nathan said, what if there's

01:23:38   a privacy policy? And Apple says, "Look, we're gonna use this data

01:23:42   only to match it up and send it to your devices and all that." That said, I

01:23:45   don't think—I think Apple's going to avoid this as much as they can and try to

01:23:48   to do as much on their devices as they can and then sync data across the devices, because

01:23:53   the devices are in your possession, they have their encryption keys on them, they talk to

01:23:57   each other, Apple doesn't see the data other than as encrypted blobs, and I think Apple

01:24:02   is trying very hard to build your little personal cloud of devices who can crunch the numbers

01:24:10   and associate things together and go out over the internet and talk to each other securely,

01:24:16   rather than having that all happen up in the cloud, which is what Google does.

01:24:20   And I think they're pretty committed to that concept, the idea that, you know, everything

01:24:23   like face recognition for photos right now only happens on photos for Mac, but it does

01:24:27   happen there, and the face name matches sync to iCloud.

01:24:32   So the Mac does the facial recognition work, but all the devices can do a search for a

01:24:37   person's face and see those photos.

01:24:39   I think Apple really wants that to be the model here.

01:24:42   know at some point they're gonna need to add that facial recognition to iOS too

01:24:46   but you know they'll get there I think so I think Apple really doesn't want to

01:24:51   have unencrypted or unencrypted data that it can access up in the cloud for

01:24:55   lots of different reasons.

01:24:57   Okay Jason so before we take a look at our movie for this episode

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01:27:57   So today's movie is Say Anything. When was this movie released? Obviously sometime in the 80s.

01:28:04   It's 1989, so right at the end of the 80s, directed by Cameron Crowe, who I think became

01:28:15   well known first for writing Fast Times at Ridgemont High. He went on to, I think his most

01:28:22   famous movie is Jerry Maguire which was nominated for a bazillion Oscars and he

01:28:27   also made Singles which was really great and he also made what's it called Almost

01:28:35   Famous which is actually a great film too so he's made a bunch of good stuff

01:28:39   over the years but this is this is probably my favorite of his films.

01:28:44   So why did you pick this movie? Is it a favorite of yours or do you just like it?

01:28:47   I don't know it as well as some of the others that I picked but I do love it

01:28:51   it's--I wanted to stay with the 80s theme. I had a whole bunch of John Cusack

01:28:55   movies on my list of things to recommend to you which I thought was funny. I was

01:28:58   looking at it thinking, "Wait a second, I've got a lot of John Cusack on here." I

01:29:02   decided not to make you watch High Fidelity because I made Joe and Dan on

01:29:07   the Defocused podcast watch High Fidelity recently, also not from the

01:29:12   80s but starring John Cusack. I thought about Gross Point Blank, also not from

01:29:16   the 80s but starring John Cusack, but I decided to say anything fits with your

01:29:20   80s theme. It is a movie from this period that I really like. I think it does some things

01:29:25   that are very different from other movies of this genre and type. I think that it's

01:29:30   got, I think it's smart and funny and sweet and it does have not only an incredibly famous

01:29:37   scene and image in it, but also a memorable quote involving a pen.

01:29:43   So, ticking all my boxes basically.

01:29:47   Pretty much.

01:29:48   So I mentioned before I knew the boombox moment.

01:29:51   Yeah.

01:29:52   That was one thing.

01:29:53   And this is the first time that...

01:29:55   You couldn't identify the song though.

01:29:57   You couldn't identify the song when you said, "He's holding a boombox and there's probably

01:30:00   something playing."

01:30:01   Yeah, I know the song now though.

01:30:04   Yeah.

01:30:05   Though I couldn't tell you the name, but I know it.

01:30:06   It's in your eyes, Peter Gabriel.

01:30:08   There you go.

01:30:09   Love that song.

01:30:10   Love that song.

01:30:11   used to great effect in his movie.

01:30:13   Yes.

01:30:14   This was the first movie out of all of the ones that we've done

01:30:17   on Myke at the Movies that was available on Netflix.

01:30:20   Oh nice.

01:30:21   The only one I didn't have to buy.

01:30:23   Alright.

01:30:24   Or rent.

01:30:25   So I'm looking out for you there.

01:30:26   I don't think it's on, look on US Netflix, it's not on US Netflix.

01:30:29   It's actually not on UK iTunes.

01:30:32   That was where I went first.

01:30:33   Interesting.

01:30:34   It's just not there.

01:30:35   But it didn't matter because it's on UK Netflix.

01:30:38   Exactly, that was all I needed.

01:30:39   Beautiful.

01:30:40   So, the movie starts off and it's kind of like you overhear a conversation between some

01:30:47   kids, I say kids, like how old are they?

01:30:51   They're graduating from high school, so they're all 18, 17, 18, 19.

01:30:55   They're all about to graduate from high school in Seattle, Washington.

01:30:58   And you hear the words graduation and yearbook.

01:31:01   So like the scene is set, you know where you are, you know how old your characters are,

01:31:05   you know what time of their life it is, it's that transition period.

01:31:09   - I actually think an unusual time to set a high school,

01:31:12   you know, this is listed in like Entertainment Weekly

01:31:14   did their list of the best high school movies,

01:31:15   but it is a funny place to set a movie

01:31:18   because it is set in the summer

01:31:20   between high school and college.

01:31:22   - High school's over.

01:31:23   - They are graduating and they have a party

01:31:25   and high school is over.

01:31:26   Yeah, exactly.

01:31:27   That's how the movie starts.

01:31:29   - And then there's basically a conversation

01:31:35   between John Cusack's character Lloyd

01:31:38   and his friends Corey and...

01:31:44   what's the other girl's name in the movie?

01:31:47   DC? Is that her? Or is it somebody else? I don't know.

01:31:50   No. Rebecca? No.

01:31:53   This is tough. Maybe. It could be Rebecca.

01:31:55   I forget who the other one is. Lily Taylor though is the important,

01:31:59   I would say, important character in that.

01:32:01   Yeah, she's Corey.

01:32:05   basically they're having a conversation and Lloyd is talking about a girl that

01:32:10   he likes, Diane, who's played by Help Me. How do you say this first name?

01:32:15   Oh, Ione Skye. Ione, Ione, there you go. Ione Skye. So she basically,

01:32:23   Junkyu says character Lloyd is in, basically really likes her and wants to

01:32:27   ask her out but is worried that Diane doesn't know him and you know his

01:32:33   friends Cory and we're saying for now Rebecca or we'll say it's Rebecca saying

01:32:39   basically you know you you probably have no chance of her she doesn't know who

01:32:42   you are like you know we'd and then they say to him I love this line we don't

01:32:46   want to see you get her and he says I want to get her I just really like that

01:32:52   and then basically we know that they're then three of them who friends about to

01:32:58   head off to their graduation and then we kind of cut to a car scene with John

01:33:04   Mahoney the dad didn't know he's in this movie love that guy love that guy

01:33:09   because of Fraser yeah yeah yeah just yeah yeah he's yeah it's the dad from

01:33:15   Frasier is is a is Diane's dad I only Skye's dad in this and they're basically

01:33:21   running through the valedictorian speech that Diane is gonna be giving right and

01:33:28   And it's clear that he just, he thinks the world of his daughter and thinks she's gonna

01:33:33   go on to do great things and everything.

01:33:35   She can do no wrong to him.

01:33:37   Yep.

01:33:38   And she tells this little joke about going back, like, to college or to high school or

01:33:45   whatever.

01:33:46   Basically then there's this scene where this obvious jock who everybody loves is singing

01:33:50   a song terribly singing "The Greatest Love of All".

01:33:52   "The Greatest Love of All", which includes the line "They can't take away my dignity",

01:33:57   Which is hilarious because he is, it is the least dignified thing somebody could ever

01:34:02   do is sing that song the way he sings it on that stage.

01:34:05   It's hilarious.

01:34:06   And then Diane gives her speech, which goes down okay, basically.

01:34:10   Yeah, it's not a super hit.

01:34:12   The line that her father generously laughed at is sort of confusing to people just as,

01:34:17   you know, you could have guessed from hearing it.

01:34:19   Like that's kind of strange and not, people aren't going to get it and they kind of don't

01:34:24   get it.

01:34:25   She's a valedictorian. She's not widely beloved and the stuff she does isn't widely praised.

01:34:31   It's just not—that's not the slot that she's in.

01:34:35   Can I admit at this point that Ione Skye is the person I identify with in this film?

01:34:42   Being—because I was second in my class and gave a speech at graduation and always felt—

01:34:48   I mean, her isolation from the people in her school,

01:34:51   that feels really familiar to me.

01:34:55   So I think that's, I always identify with her

01:34:59   when I'm watching this.

01:35:00   I feel for her.

01:35:01   - And when they're in the crowd,

01:35:04   like they go to a crowd scene

01:35:05   and there's all these whirring video cameras,

01:35:08   it's like another thing that I really like

01:35:10   because before that, they're talking about dating.

01:35:12   At the beginning of dating is calling someone up

01:35:15   to get things started, you just call them on the telephone.

01:35:17   There's like a scene where Lloyd, his cassette player,

01:35:21   is chewing up a tape and I don't know,

01:35:23   there was just something about that it was really fun.

01:35:25   - Yeah, he's like hitting it 'cause it's distorting the music

01:35:28   and you have to hit the tape in the car cassette player, yeah.

01:35:33   - And so like this coupled with some other tropes

01:35:36   of '80s movies that are happening,

01:35:38   like there's lots of musical interstitials,

01:35:41   lots of non-diegetic music that's just there.

01:35:43   - That's also a Cameron Crowe thing

01:35:46   'cause he is an obsessed music nut

01:35:49   and actually married one of the lead singers

01:35:52   in the band Heart, other than they got divorced later.

01:35:54   But he is a, and Singles is like,

01:35:58   his movie that he made after this, I think,

01:36:00   is basically like, it's practically,

01:36:03   the Seattle grunge music scene is as important a character

01:36:08   as anyone who's in that film.

01:36:10   So he's, music is,

01:36:11   Cameron Crowe's really about the music.

01:36:13   And so not only is this an 80s movie with lots of music,

01:36:16   but it's also kind of Cameron Crowe being really fussy about like the music.

01:36:20   It's like he's making a mixtape here in the soundtrack.

01:36:24   And it's this sort of stuff that makes me, I really love eighties movies.

01:36:28   And I'm happy that we're doing this.

01:36:31   I'm realizing how much I love eighties movies going through this,

01:36:35   this series with you. There were just things about them,

01:36:38   the way they look like the color and like the way that they're shot. I just really,

01:36:43   really love this style of filmmaking that was happening at that time.

01:36:46   I just really like it. They make me happy for some reason. The next kind of big scene we go to, we start to learn a bit about the father-daughter relationship between Diane and Mr. Court.

01:37:01   Yeah.

01:37:02   It's James Court, but he's basically Mr. Court.

01:37:05   He is. Or Sir, as Lloyd often will call him.

01:37:09   Yeah, and he clearly would do anything for his daughter.

01:37:14   It's like he gives her a car, he gives her a ring.

01:37:17   But it is also in this scene where I realize how beautiful Ione Sky is.

01:37:23   Yeah, that is the one thing here that, I mean, she's supposed to be this somewhat dowdy--

01:37:32   Although, I don't know, I think you could argue that maybe she was--

01:37:35   if you if I think the argument is not like the classic 80s argument that she'd just be beautiful

01:37:41   if she put on you know took off her glasses and put on some makeup or something like that she's

01:37:45   beautiful she is she is absolutely beautiful in this movie I think the argument is that she's

01:37:50   just socially isolated that she's completely over-mothered you know over-parented by her father

01:37:55   and she's kind of aloof from everybody she's the brain even you know Lloyd's friends try to talk

01:38:01   him out of even talking to her because she's super scary because she's the brain. And we see it from

01:38:06   Diane's perspective and she's like totally isolated and sort of okay with it and then

01:38:12   ultimately sort of not. But it is funny to have that moment of like, I'm not sure even if she was

01:38:20   the brain and had all these other issues and was kind of aloof from everybody socially, I'm not

01:38:25   sure I buy that that could have been maintained throughout high school given how attractive I only

01:38:31   sky is in this but let's you know it seems less ridiculous than in some other

01:38:36   movies where it's an obviously beautiful woman but she's got glasses on and then

01:38:40   she takes them off and everybody goes oh my god we didn't notice because that's

01:38:43   ridiculous. I see where you're going with that but I think that the party scene

01:38:48   which we'll get to in a bit more detail in a minute shows that everybody thinks

01:38:53   she's beautiful because everyone wants to talk to her. Well that's true and and

01:38:56   it's like she she's never gone to a party she's never been available she's

01:39:00   never come off the mountaintop to talk to them and the first thing that happens

01:39:03   when they walk in is that is that you know a blonde girl just comes over it's

01:39:08   like it's so great I'm so happy you're here let me go introduce you to a lot of

01:39:11   cute guys while Lloyd is being accosted and loses track of her for a while so

01:39:16   yeah it's true but that that is I was right every time I watch this movie I'm

01:39:20   like oh my god I only sky in 1989 all right I don't like to do this stuff too

01:39:27   much but she's so beautiful absolutely absolutely one this is one of the things

01:39:37   that I really like so this scene it's like this really nice calm move this

01:39:41   soft piano music is playing throughout like that is the way that she is being

01:39:45   built and then like jump cut to Lloyd kickboxing with heavy metal like this is

01:39:53   really like yeah these are very different people mm-hmm and then he's

01:39:57   basically he's doing this kickboxing routine to build up the courage to call

01:40:03   yes so then he he grabs the phone and he calls the house and gets and he gets on

01:40:11   the phone with with Diane's father and basically talking and he's like I'll

01:40:16   take a number from you that's how this usually works yeah cuz he's trying to

01:40:20   explain and maybe like ask his dad to ask ask her dad to ask her out for him

01:40:25   or something and he doesn't know where he's going he's completely at sea here

01:40:29   and he's like yeah I'll just give me your number that's how I think giving

01:40:32   the impression that this happens a lot because he's like are you the one with

01:40:35   the Mustang are you the one with this like right that son like he keeps asking

01:40:39   and it's like this is how this usually works yeah yeah that's true also you

01:40:44   left out the we see Lloyd's life Lloyd's parents Lord's dad's in the army his

01:40:49   parents are absent. They're in Germany and he's living with his sister, played

01:40:54   by John Cusack's sister, Joan Cusack, and her son. And so she's her son's

01:41:02   father has has run off and she yells at him at one point for being his playmate,

01:41:07   the son's playmate, instead of his uncle, which seems kind of mean to me and to

01:41:12   Lloyd too. And then he goes into the bathroom with the phone and calls to

01:41:17   try to set up this date with Diane, who essentially never met him.

01:41:21   Is it before this point or after this point that Diane finds out about the Reed Fellowship?

01:41:32   I think it's after, because I think that happens after that she's at the nursing home and her

01:41:39   dad comes to tell her that she's won a fellowship and she's going to be going to England. What

01:41:45   an exotic place, England. Yeah, obviously. Because he then says before,

01:41:53   because basically there's a telephone call after Lloyd puts down the phone and it's to

01:41:57   tell you that she's got this refile, she's going to England. But there's this one other

01:42:00   line that I really love where as the conversation is wrapping up between Lloyd and Mr. Cault,

01:42:06   he says, Lloyd says, "She's pretty great, isn't she?" And then Mr. Cault says, "Yes,

01:42:12   is. Good luck, kid." I liked it because it was kind of just like, "She is great. You

01:42:18   sound like a nice guy. Good luck." I kind of liked that. That was how I took it anyway.

01:42:23   I think it's a cool dynamic, too, that we've seen that John Mahoney thinks the world of

01:42:27   her, and we know that Lloyd thinks the world of her. And this is kind of what one of the

01:42:32   main conflicts in the movie is about, is these two guys who think the world of Diane. And

01:42:40   kind of in opposition because the father has his issues and doesn't want to let her go and has

01:42:44   judgment about Lloyd, but this is the one thing that they can absolutely agree on is she's pretty

01:42:49   great. And it's a funny moment where if you're the proud parent of this girl and a boy calls to ask

01:42:55   her out and tells you she's great, what are you going to say? It's like, yeah, she is. I agree.

01:43:01   - Like at this point in the movie and so much later, they are not in opposition.

01:43:05   - Yeah, that's right.

01:43:07   They're very much like on par with each other and have respect for each other.

01:43:13   That's true, that's true. They ultimately end up, it ends up being problematic, but

01:43:17   it's true. They admire Diane and Lloyd proves his trustworthiness, I would say. And he truly,

01:43:27   you know, truly, he's not lying when he says she's pretty great. He really is taking care

01:43:32   of her and that he'll take care of her and she'll be back safely and all that from the

01:43:35   the all-night graduation party. He's absolutely proven trustworthy about that.

01:43:39   So then they find out that she's won the Reed fellowship. I like where he's saying

01:43:45   to like you know where Mr. Kort's saying to Diane, "You need to admit your special.

01:43:52   Tell me your special." And he says about the pyramid, "Everyone starts down the

01:43:56   bottom and you've reached right to the top." I just liked all of that kind of

01:44:00   stuff and you because it's more like laying the groundwork of how much he

01:44:03   loves her. Then later Diane returns Lloyd's call and he's basically

01:44:12   trying to convince her to go on a date with him. Like she's like "I'm very busy"

01:44:16   and he's like "Are you busy this day?" She immediately says "I'm busy" like

01:44:20   forever "I'm busy" and he will not take no for an answer. It's kind of adorable.

01:44:25   "Are you monumentally busy?" I like that. And then she ends up agreeing to go to the

01:44:34   party with him after she says that she's going to England. And he says, "Oh, I went to England

01:44:39   for three months." I think this is what probably intrigues her. And he's like, "I could give

01:44:42   you tips, many tips, English tips, or no tips of any kind."

01:44:46   That's right. And then he kind of oversells it where she sort of agrees and he's still

01:44:50   trying to sell it and then he's like, "All right, okay. All right." Yeah, it's adorable.

01:44:57   This is vintage John Cusack. Lloyd is so committed here and so genuine.

01:45:05   So then he goes to pick her up and there's a nice exchange. He's very kind and respectful

01:45:13   to Mr. Caulk, calling him "sir" and saying that he'll have a home away and saying I could

01:45:17   do kickboxing so I can take care of her and really lay it on. And then they take

01:45:22   it they go to the party and that's where like you know everybody goes up to

01:45:26   Diane and everyone's really surprised that she's there with Lloyd. Then Lloyd

01:45:30   gets given the opportunity of that sorry the opportunity the job of keymaster

01:45:35   where he effectively will not drink for the evening and must decide who can take

01:45:39   their keys at the end of the night so they can drive. This is a very

01:45:42   80s phenomenon. This is the mothers against drunk drivers, take people's keys, designated

01:45:49   driver thing. This was really emerging in, I believe at one point they show a, there's

01:45:54   an 88 written on the toilet seat. So I think this is supposed to essentially be my high

01:45:58   school class that I'm watching here. And this definitely was part of the culture was whether

01:46:04   this really happened a lot, I think is arguable, but this was very, a very 80s thing of like,

01:46:10   we're gonna have somebody watching.

01:46:13   After my high school graduation,

01:46:14   there was a big overnight party at somebody's house

01:46:16   and the whole idea was that you went out there

01:46:18   and you stayed there all night and they took your keys away

01:46:22   and that absolutely did happen.

01:46:25   So it's funny to see that here.

01:46:27   That is a real thing, very '80s.

01:46:30   - Something that I do not understand,

01:46:32   the career counselor arrives at the party,

01:46:35   (laughing)

01:46:37   tells Lloyd that he needs to kind of sort his life out and needs to go to

01:46:41   junior college pick something decide what he wants to

01:46:44   do with his life but then she joins the party she gives him her keys and goes to

01:46:48   the party and i don't understand how old is she meant to be

01:46:51   well BB Newworth is playing that part more

01:46:54   more members of the Frasier extended family right that she was Frasier's

01:46:59   ex-wife um and um and said in Seattle too man it's

01:47:05   It's all connected to Frasier, isn't it?

01:47:06   So she, I feel like, you know,

01:47:11   I always read that as just being that she was,

01:47:12   she was one of those high school teachers/counselors

01:47:17   who was perhaps overly friendly with the students.

01:47:19   That's really what I got.

01:47:20   Like- - Oh, she hits him as well.

01:47:22   - Yeah, inappropriately friendly with the students

01:47:26   and maybe trying to relive her own high school years

01:47:30   when she should not be.

01:47:31   And that's just sort of how I read that is,

01:47:33   That's, you know, she's in,

01:47:35   Mrs. Evans is a bit inappropriate.

01:47:38   - Yep.

01:47:39   So the first day is done.

01:47:40   They're basically, they spend the time together.

01:47:44   He's being very nice looking out for her.

01:47:46   Then they drive this kid off.

01:47:48   - They drop a guy off who doesn't know where he lives.

01:47:50   - Nope, and they're driving all morning

01:47:51   and they're very, very nice.

01:47:54   He's very gentlemanly.

01:47:56   They're walking around, they're talking and it's good.

01:47:58   And at this point, like I realized

01:48:00   how happy this movie is making me.

01:48:03   I'm watching it and I just feel really good. I love these type of love stories.

01:48:08   These very simple, like, young love love stories.

01:48:12   Um...

01:48:13   And...

01:48:14   This part actually reminds me a little bit of, um, of, uh, Before Sunrise.

01:48:18   Have you seen that?

01:48:19   I have not seen that.

01:48:20   Oh, Myke. Okay, anyway, we'll move on then.

01:48:22   When was that? When was that released?

01:48:26   Uh, Before Sunrise 1995.

01:48:27   Uh, too late. Too late.

01:48:29   That's... It's too late for the 80s, it doesn't count.

01:48:31   that's Ethan Hawke, Julie Delpy, it's good.

01:48:34   But I know something's gonna happen and and I assume at this point that

01:48:41   her father will get upset. There has to be a complication right?

01:48:45   Otherwise what's the drama here? It's just a nice pleasant

01:48:48   like a warm blanket.

01:48:51   And then I don't actually have a lot of notes between here and

01:48:55   way later in the movie which shows how much I was enjoying this

01:48:59   because sometimes when I have no notes it's because nothing's happening but I was just like

01:49:03   et up in the movie so basically some of this because I this is a really long time I've just

01:49:08   looked the next note I have is sad breakup so it's when they break up and she gives in the pen

01:49:13   oh so I've got I've got a long time here so there's stuff some stuff that happens that I

01:49:18   can remember they have a family meal which is when it all starts to unravel a little bit

01:49:23   yep because um Mr Court asks Lloyd when what's to do for a living and he says he wants to be

01:49:28   be a kickboxer and that's the kind of...

01:49:31   Kickboxing, sport of the future.

01:49:32   Yeah, so at that point he's like, "No, this isn't good."

01:49:35   And then the IRS show up and they're investigating Mr. Kort.

01:49:39   Yes, I think this is one of the things that I love about this movie is it is such a strange

01:49:45   and surprising turn for a movie like this.

01:49:48   The complication in the romantic comedy is that one of the partners in the romance, her

01:49:55   father is being investigated by the FBI or by the IRS. How strange is that? Suddenly

01:50:01   like criminal investigation to ratchet up the familial tension? It's just, it's just

01:50:06   odd. It comes kind of out of left field and you're like, oh, you know, interesting and

01:50:10   puts him in a whole different light. And not in a way like he isn't truly devoted to his

01:50:16   daughter and not in a way, it doesn't undermine like, I feel like a modern movie might undermine

01:50:20   this in a totally different way where there's a, you know, he doesn't really love her or

01:50:24   whatever, and it's like, that's not true. It's just that other parts of his life are

01:50:28   kind of shady and questionable and it introduces doubt in their relationship, which is kind

01:50:36   of interesting, but it's totally out of left field. It's like, what? The IRS is knocking

01:50:40   on the door?

01:50:41   Yeah. And then, you know, things continue to go along. They're having great dates. They're

01:50:45   really getting to know each other very well. They're becoming very close. She kind of,

01:50:51   Like Diane kind of goes back and forth a little bit and try and not want it to get too heavy

01:50:54   because she has quite a—she feels the fact that she's—her and her dad are very close,

01:51:00   like friends.

01:51:01   They are friends.

01:51:02   Mm-hmm.

01:51:03   They are.

01:51:04   Well, they're all each other has.

01:51:05   That's been up to now.

01:51:06   The mother divorced the father and moved away and made Diane choose, and Diane chose her

01:51:11   dad.

01:51:12   And since then, they are—and we know how removed she's been from high school society.

01:51:16   So essentially, they are each other's world.

01:51:20   And that is the way that Lloyd is threatening that,

01:51:24   by coming in here.

01:51:25   But it's huge.

01:51:27   They are their best pals.

01:51:30   - Yep.

01:51:31   And then things kind of move along and she's--

01:51:36   - Teaches her to drive a stick shift.

01:51:39   - Yep, which is when things kind of turn up for the better.

01:51:42   'Cause she's like, "Can we just be friends?"

01:51:44   like she's worried that she's leaving and she's not gonna see her dad and that

01:51:48   concerns her as well.

01:51:49   I like that her dad has a job I mean it turns out that that's

01:51:53   ultimately important to the plot but we see we see him and her and even Lloyd at

01:51:58   the at the nursing home a lot.

01:52:01   Yep.

01:52:01   Which you know in so many of these films if the

01:52:03   present if the parents are present it's also unclear if the parents even have

01:52:06   jobs because they're always like they're around for things and here it seems

01:52:09   nursing home right it seems realistic right that they would be they would

01:52:13   spend time around the nursing home he shows her how to drive in the big circle

01:52:15   in front of the nursing home because it's part of her life that's you know

01:52:19   that's all part of part of their lives. So then they go out one evening they

01:52:28   sleep together where they she points out a song to him because he's kind of like

01:52:34   it's a nice it's a nice moment where like Lloyd is like shivering and she's

01:52:39   like what's the matter you called is like I'm just happy and then she points

01:52:42   out in your eyes it's on the radio she's like just listen to the song I like this

01:52:46   song and then the one of the reasons is this movie it well the reason this movie

01:52:52   is called say anything is because that is a agreement between Diane and her

01:52:57   father they can say anything to each other and so she tells him that they

01:53:01   slept together and he takes it pretty well like it doesn't go crazy like you

01:53:06   see many of these movies like you think maybe that's gonna be the turning point

01:53:09   but it isn't. He's not happy that she's out all night.

01:53:12   Yes, that he did like. As no parent would be, right? Because they seem to have this agreement of

01:53:17   "I don't mind as long as you call" and she didn't call.

01:53:20   Right. So that, you know. This is funny, I, without giving too much detail, my,

01:53:25   I will say, I have a family member who had this agreement with their parent,

01:53:35   an extended family member and it went about as well as it does in this movie. Well, I think it

01:53:42   didn't go quite as well as in this movie, but it's the same thing. It's like you can say anything to

01:53:45   me, we'll talk about it, and then you know the first time that this person said, "Oh well, you

01:53:51   know, I had sex at 15 or whatever." It was sort of like, okay, the parent can't do that anymore.

01:54:00   Anything but that.

01:54:02   Yeah, it's just like it's great that you're a cool parent who can be the confidant, but at some point, you know

01:54:08   You may need to be a parent and so it's hard don't promise not to be a parent because you may need to be a parent

01:54:13   At some point you may not be able to help yourself

01:54:15   but

01:54:16   Yeah, it's it's a fascinating relationship that they have those two characters

01:54:20   but mr. Court starts to get jealous at this point because he's not seeing any of Diane and

01:54:26   She's leaving and that he doesn't like that. So he starts to

01:54:30   to he starts to drive a wedge in, but he admits to knowing why he's doing like he has this

01:54:37   like conflict of he wants her to be happy and he says he realizes he's being jealous

01:54:41   but he still wants to see her and he's concerned about the IRS thing all that sort of stuff.

01:54:47   So it leads to there being a breakup and for some reason like he said like Diane Diane

01:54:53   like her dad gives her a pen to give him give Lloyd this pen. I don't even understand what

01:55:00   what that was meant to signify but um I think it's just it's the cluelessness of of the dad

01:55:07   that yeah he's just you know he he doesn't understand how this stuff works and he's living

01:55:12   in a totally different world and he you know yeah it's bizarre it's really bizarre so then there is

01:55:19   a very very sad breakup lots of tears and lots of driving walking in the rain uh Seattle you know

01:55:27   And then Lloyd says, "I gave her my heart and she gave me a pen."

01:55:31   Yep. Which is probably the line you were referring to. Yes, indeed.

01:55:34   "I gave her my heart, she gave me a pen." And there's, you know, I really like that

01:55:40   this movie revels in the teen anguish and like

01:55:45   really like amps up the melodrama because that is how these things

01:55:49   are when you're that age. Yes, yeah, it feels like the end of the world.

01:55:53   And it's displayed as that in the-- and it's very--

01:55:56   I think it's very nicely done because it's a lot of like, crying in the rain is a very cliche thing,

01:56:03   but it works if you do it and you're aware of why you're doing it. I felt that, I quite liked that,

01:56:08   it worked well for me. Then Lloyd is like driving around talking into a cassette tape, like a cassette

01:56:15   recorder, and it seems like he is recording these for Corey? You never really understand that, but

01:56:22   understanding is like they're best friends one of the things that they do

01:56:26   is record tapes to each other instead of writing to each other and he says about how he thinks

01:56:33   maybe you should hang out with some guys and he tries to do that like hang out

01:56:36   with these group of guys and they're all just ridiculous and yeah including Joe

01:56:40   who Corey has broken up with a million times and was the guy who was singing

01:56:44   the song and she's on her and exactly Joe lies Joe lies yep and basically like

01:56:51   you know they're all saying "oh we can get you girls" that kind of thing and he

01:56:54   says "if you guys know so much about women why are you here at the gas and sip

01:56:59   with no women anywhere?"

01:57:01   Yeah this feels like this is practically what all of High

01:57:05   Fidelity is. Is this. This is like a scene that is replayed as the entire film High

01:57:11   Fidelity 15 years later. 10, 11 years later something like that.

01:57:16   And he realizes that it was a mistake for him to even try and do that.

01:57:19   Yeah. Damn, this has been a terrible mistake.

01:57:23   Oh, Jeremy Piven in that scene too.

01:57:25   Young Jeremy Piven is his pal at the party

01:57:29   and then he comes back here and they've worked together

01:57:32   in A Million Things too. They're both from Chicago.

01:57:34   So, a little trivia.

01:57:36   It's the guy from Nontaraj, right?

01:57:38   Yep.

01:57:39   Okay.

01:57:41   So then it's kind of like a lot of scenes

01:57:44   of Lloyd trying to forget,

01:57:47   And he says at one point, I draw the line at 700 and return phone calls.

01:57:52   And like, Corey's telling him to give it another go.

01:57:55   And then I like this line that she says to him.

01:57:58   You know, he's like, you know, maybe I just need to be a guy about this, you know,

01:58:00   just like forget about it and find someone else.

01:58:02   And she's like, you're not a guy, be a man.

01:58:04   >> Mm.

01:58:06   >> Then you kind of start to see things, like, you start to realize at this point

01:58:14   that things are falling apart for Mr. Court.

01:58:16   yeah he tries to buy something with a credit card and it's rejected and they

01:58:20   have to like take it away. He hides in the bathtub. Yep and at that point you

01:58:26   realize something is going on here but you at this point it's the IRS stuff is

01:58:31   very much in the background from when it happens to like he just briefly mentions

01:58:36   it that's all but it is apparent that he either has no money which is what I

01:58:44   thought they'd gone bankrupt or that he you know they're shutting him down which

01:58:49   is actually what's happening then we had the boom box scene so in an attempt to

01:58:53   try and woo it's his gesture Lloyd's gesture he is standing outside of his

01:58:58   car with a boom box above his head playing in your eyes the song from

01:59:02   earlier in the movie but nothing happens Diane does not react to it then next

01:59:08   scene, Diane is going to visit an IRS officer who explains to Diane after some prodding

01:59:15   that it turns out that Mr. Court has been stealing money from dead people.

01:59:18   Yeah. He's been taking inheritances and claiming

01:59:21   people are still alive and that kind of thing. Then she starts to doubt her dad, searches

01:59:26   the house, and finds a chest of cash. I like, um, so Philip Baker Hall is the IRS

01:59:32   guy here. I think this is a cool performance because he's like, he understands the implications.

01:59:38   of this, right? That this is this young person who's very, by all accounts, very talented, and

01:59:44   she loves her father, and they've all that they've got, and he's trying to break it to her.

01:59:48   You know, he's doing his job, but he's kind of breaking it to her gently. Like,

01:59:51   I think it's an interesting scene where he's trying to explain to her, you know,

01:59:57   really this has happened. And I know you think the world of your father, but really.

02:00:01   And she doesn't want to believe it, but he's trying to, like, I don't know, he's trying to

02:00:04   to give it to her straight. It's an interesting scene where he's trying to explain, "What

02:00:10   do you think is going to happen?" She's going to be mad at him and all that, but he's trying

02:00:12   to explain it to her. It's very interesting. And then she has to go and see it for herself.

02:00:16   I also think this twist is interesting in that, you know, you could argue that what

02:00:20   he did was honorable in the sense that he's like, you know, they didn't have anybody and,

02:00:25   you know, what was I going to do with the money? But it's, you know, it's totally justifiable

02:00:31   by him but totally not acceptable in any way. And I think that's interesting too. I think

02:00:35   that's how a lot of these crimes get committed is somebody convinces themselves that what

02:00:39   they're doing is actually not bad and then they get caught. And so she finds the money.

02:00:45   He's got that expensive jukebox that they've had in the house all this time. Suspicion.

02:00:51   And the ring and oh, the suspicion.

02:00:53   David: And then she finds the box of cash and she goes to confront him. She makes him

02:00:57   swear to God and he does but then she's like I found the money you lied to me

02:01:01   yeah and then she runs away she runs to Lloyd who's doing some kickboxing

02:01:07   training some sparring she walks in and then he gets kicked in the face and his

02:01:11   nose is all bloody that kind of thing yeah and basically it starts basically

02:01:19   it transpires that she says that she needs him and they're together and then

02:01:23   Mr. Court gets put in prison for nine months and fined $125,000 and it goes to

02:01:32   the scene kind of this is the final scene in the movie where it shows Lloyd's

02:01:36   car outside the prison and Diane's in the car and Lloyd is in the is in the

02:01:42   prison talking to Mr. Court and explains you know saying that she doesn't want to

02:01:48   see you that kind of thing and then then Mr. Court goes crazy calls yeah says

02:01:52   like why is she championing mediocrity because he says he's going to England

02:01:56   with her and Mr. Court doesn't like this because he's gonna be a distraction.

02:02:01   But Lloyd, to his credit, tries to remain to be nice to her like gives a letter and

02:02:06   says there's a version of the letter that I've seen which is not the one that

02:02:09   he's got which where Diane says something along the lines of "I can't help but love

02:02:13   you" or something like that and so he's trying to be nice still to Mr. Court

02:02:18   even though Mr. Court is being very mean to Lloyd.

02:02:23   And then Diane arrives just as visiting time is ending

02:02:26   and kind of hugs her father and that kind of thing

02:02:29   and then gives him a pen.

02:02:31   -Yeah. -And says, like, you know, to write.

02:02:34   -Yeah, the guards are gonna totally take that pen away.

02:02:37   -Yep. Of course.

02:02:38   Just stab someone with it, but, you know, symbolism.

02:02:41   I don't know how she even got it in.

02:02:42   -I don't know. It's low security.

02:02:44   It's the IRS prison. It's low, low, low security.

02:02:48   They're on a plane together.

02:02:49   And Diane is at Riviera and the movie is scared of flying

02:02:52   and they have this really nice scene

02:02:53   where Lloyd's trying to calm her down

02:02:56   and saying as soon as the smoking light comes on, hilarious.

02:02:59   - Yeah.

02:03:00   - We'll be, you know, everything's fine

02:03:02   because 90% of all problems happen

02:03:04   within the first five minutes

02:03:05   and it's going along, going along, going along.

02:03:07   They're looking up, looking up.

02:03:08   It goes bing and the credits roll.

02:03:10   - Yep.

02:03:12   - Jason Snow, I love this movie so much.

02:03:14   I love this movie so so much. It's easily my favorite of all of the movies that we have seen.

02:03:21   Wow. Wow.

02:03:23   This movie is so much about what I love in movies.

02:03:28   Like it is a ride that does not send you through many hoops.

02:03:34   The love interests, they don't do anything bad to each other.

02:03:40   That is a real thing that I don't like in romantic comedies

02:03:44   or movies with love interests,

02:03:46   that there is the point where one of them does something

02:03:48   and upsets the other.

02:03:49   That doesn't happen in this movie.

02:03:51   They are true to each other.

02:03:52   And that's one of the things that I really love about it

02:03:56   because their love is, you know, it's meaningful.

02:04:00   - Well, even when she breaks up with him,

02:04:02   she's not breaking up with him

02:04:05   because she doesn't care about him.

02:04:06   She's got all these sort of external forces

02:04:08   and she feels like this is what she needs to do.

02:04:10   And she clearly regrets it immediately.

02:04:14   Yeah, she's listening to his messages

02:04:16   and she so wants to pick up the phone and answer,

02:04:19   but she feels like she can't.

02:04:21   - So I don't have a bad thing to say about this movie.

02:04:24   - Wow, it's a good movie.

02:04:28   You should check out,

02:04:30   well, you should check out "Single" sometime.

02:04:32   It's from the 90s, so it can't be for Myke watches

02:04:33   the movies, but I like that movie.

02:04:36   That's a, like I said, it's also sort of the story of,

02:04:40   it is shot in Seattle in the early '90s.

02:04:44   It is as, it's practically a documentary about grunge

02:04:47   happening in the background

02:04:49   (laughs)

02:04:50   while the movie is happening in the foreground.

02:04:52   But Cameron Crowe, very music-oriented.

02:04:55   This is, yeah, I love, I do, I love this movie.

02:04:57   This is a great example of a, you know,

02:05:02   '80s romantic comedy.

02:05:05   The characters are so memorable.

02:05:09   They're not like off of the assembly line at all.

02:05:12   They've got their own quirks,

02:05:13   but they don't come across as being kind of like

02:05:15   showy quirky, they're quirky, they are,

02:05:17   but they feel lived in.

02:05:20   And like I said, I love the idea

02:05:24   of being between high school and college

02:05:26   and just sort of like dangling

02:05:28   and not knowing where you're going in your life.

02:05:30   And that's a very interesting point

02:05:32   when she's going off to this fellowship,

02:05:34   He doesn't know what he's going to do,

02:05:36   if he's going to join the army or whatever.

02:05:38   And they've got this summer together

02:05:40   where all of these things happen.

02:05:42   And you know, I don't think you see a lot of films

02:05:45   set in that period either.

02:05:46   And it's a really ripe period for that.

02:05:48   - So there's a movie that this reminds me of

02:05:51   that I really love called Nick and Laura's Infinite Playlist.

02:05:55   - Oh, I've heard about that. I haven't seen it.

02:05:56   - It's one of my favorite movies.

02:05:58   It is very music-focused.

02:06:00   It has John...

02:06:04   No, Sarah, Michael Cera, that's it.

02:06:07   - Michael Cera, right.

02:06:09   - And Kat Dennings.

02:06:11   - Yeah, yeah.

02:06:13   - It's a great movie, it's set over one night,

02:06:15   it's very, very focused on music,

02:06:17   and it is just this love story

02:06:18   that blossoms over one evening.

02:06:21   It's really fantastic, but yeah, I love this movie.

02:06:24   I really love this movie.

02:06:26   - If that is one of your favorite movies,

02:06:28   you really do need to watch Before Sunrise.

02:06:31   - Okay.

02:06:32   that's that is also what happens is Ethan Hawke and who's American and Julie

02:06:37   Delpy whose French meet in Vienna and they've got an overnight before they're

02:06:40   they have to get their trains in the morning and they spend the night walking

02:06:44   around the city and basically fall in love in that night and he's got to go

02:06:47   off and back to his life and his girlfriend or whatever and it's but it's

02:06:51   and it's just what happens in that night and it's a that's a classic - yeah that

02:06:56   sounds like my kind of movie that's that's your that's up your alley but I'm

02:06:58   glad you like this this is um yeah this is uh I really like John Cusack he's

02:07:05   been in any number of movies that I that I love and like I said I think Cameron

02:07:11   Crowe is really interesting and has made a bunch of really interesting movies and

02:07:14   I'm surprised Ione Skye didn't become a bigger star every time I watch this I

02:07:19   think she should have been a huge star and she wasn't you know she wasn't so

02:07:25   beautiful Jason yeah it's true it's true I had that I had that moment in oh what

02:07:30   was it I can't remember now I saw I saw some other movie from the 80s not too

02:07:36   long ago and I and I thought I think it was one of ours because I remember you

02:07:39   having this similar reaction about somebody else yeah and just feeling like

02:07:43   this feels this feels inappropriate and yet you know but this and it's the other

02:07:47   thing that's interesting but Diane is Diane is not at any point played as you

02:07:53   know super sexy that's not the point and I kind of I kind of really like that

02:07:58   that they don't put her in they don't put her in in you know scant scantily

02:08:02   she's not scantily clad at any point she's but she's beautiful and she's

02:08:07   dressed like a normal person and she wears her party dress at that one point

02:08:11   and she's you know absolutely glowing at that point but yeah it's a you can see

02:08:16   why you know this is why we go to the movies we see two interesting attractive

02:08:20   people and they're in love and what's gonna happen and I mean that's all in

02:08:24   Say Anything. Plus yes we get the the pen scene and we get that the boombox scene

02:08:29   which has gone down in history as a classic scene and it's funny the way you

02:08:34   people remember it is not necessarily how it actually works in the in the

02:08:38   movie because he's he does that and she she sort of wakes up but doesn't react.

02:08:42   He calls her from the payphone in the rain you know but it's it's not it

02:08:48   It doesn't go the way I think people think that it goes.

02:08:53   So that's it.

02:08:54   Thank you for another great movie.

02:08:55   That is it for this week's episode.

02:08:56   If you want to find our show notes, they're over at relay.fm/upgrade/42.

02:09:03   And we have just a moment to thank our friends again over at Smile, Casper, MailRoute, and

02:09:08   Squarespace for helping us out with this week's episode.

02:09:11   If you want to catch us online, you can find Jason's work over at sixcolors.com and he

02:09:15   is @jsnell and I am @imyke and we'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye Mr. Snell.

02:09:26   Goodbye Imyke.

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