41: Emoji Fragmentation


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode number 41. Today's show is brought to you by Lynda.com

00:00:14   where you can instantly stream thousands of courses created by industry experts, MailRoute,

00:00:19   a secure hosted email service for protection from viruses and spam, and Field Notes. I'm not

00:00:24   writing it down to remember it later, I'm writing it down to remember it now. My name is Myke Hurley

00:00:29   and I'm joined as always by Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:32   Hi, I'm Myke. Are you back at home in your home studio?

00:00:36   I very much am. I'm back in London and I'm horribly jet-lagged.

00:00:39   I'm sure. Well, come on. You were already living California. No, you were living East

00:00:45   Coast time, so you're jet-lagged from California to East Coast time maybe, but you can't live

00:00:51   a normal London life now. You're one of us. You've taken our time. And it's just strange

00:00:57   because you were standing in fact at one point for one shining moment right where I'm standing

00:01:03   now in my house, in my office, and holding the brain ball.

00:01:09   Yeah.

00:01:10   And that was Thursday and now it's Monday morning and you are back in London.

00:01:16   Yep.

00:01:17   It's strange.

00:01:18   I had the brain ball in the palm of my hands.

00:01:20   You did?

00:01:21   I threw it to you and you caught it.

00:01:23   Yep.

00:01:24   But that's travel for you.

00:01:26   It was a big week.

00:01:27   was great to it was great to have have you guys out here in San Francisco I

00:01:30   realized that almost everybody that I I saw last week does not live here and I'm

00:01:35   like the token Bay Area resident in that group of people it's pretty funny but it

00:01:42   was good to have everybody out here it was indeed it was one of my if not my

00:01:47   very favorite part of WWDC was was coming to the Snell residence so thank

00:01:52   you for hosting us yeah thanks for coming out that was that was fun we had

00:01:55   little dinner. I chatted a little bit. Everybody, you know, there's a brief tour

00:01:59   of the office thing. Yep, there it is. There's a microphone, there's an iMac,

00:02:03   there's a brain ball. And then we, uh, and we left the office and had a nice time,

00:02:10   places that are not an office. Mm-hmm. But it was nice to see where the magic

00:02:15   happens, as it were. Where the magic, yeah, now you've, you've seen, you've seen where the

00:02:18   magic happens. When I went to London, you were very much waving me off and saying,

00:02:21   "Nope, nope, I will come to you.

00:02:23   You will not see where the magic happens."

00:02:27   But now you've seen where I am standing right now

00:02:32   and podcasting.

00:02:33   So yeah, it was a lot of fun.

00:02:34   That's, I mean, for me, WWDC week,

00:02:37   we're gonna talk a lot more about WWDC in a little bit,

00:02:40   but for me, it's funny because it's like,

00:02:43   all these people I know come and visit me.

00:02:46   And I, you know, I just live here,

00:02:49   But I get to, once a year, all these people that I know

00:02:52   come and descend on San Francisco when I get to see them.

00:02:56   So that's pretty fun.

00:02:58   - Yeah, we, it's nice to come and join you.

00:03:01   You know, I got some interesting weather.

00:03:03   I walked across Golden Gate Bridge, everything.

00:03:05   I was a real tourist.

00:03:06   - That's good.

00:03:08   That's good, you got to see our fog, our dramatic fog.

00:03:12   - Oh yeah, I walked through it.

00:03:14   That was very cold, Jason.

00:03:15   - It's like being in a cloud, yes.

00:03:17   Yeah, we had the hot, we had some very cold days last week

00:03:20   by San Francisco standards,

00:03:21   summer San Francisco standards,

00:03:22   and the hottest day of the year last week

00:03:24   was the day of the keynote.

00:03:25   So you got the variety pack of San Francisco weather

00:03:29   while you were here.

00:03:30   - Quite a lot of the time it's in the same afternoon.

00:03:33   You get that weather.

00:03:34   - Well, driving to my house, you can go from warm

00:03:37   and then you cross the Golden Gate Bridge

00:03:38   and you're in a cloud.

00:03:40   And then you merge on the other side and it's warm again.

00:03:42   Go figure.

00:03:43   Weird place, very weird place.

00:03:45   Whoever came here and was like,

00:03:46   "Yeah, let's live here." They had no idea.

00:03:49   - Well, they're looking for the gold, right?

00:03:52   - I think that's basically it.

00:03:53   Also, at this point, you hit the Pacific Ocean

00:03:56   and if you were just heading west, you're like,

00:03:58   "Well, I guess we ran out of land.

00:04:00   I guess we'll stop here."

00:04:01   And there's gold, yay, gold, sure.

00:04:04   Ah, all right, should we do some follow-up?

00:04:09   - I would love to do some follow-up.

00:04:11   - Possibly even follow out.

00:04:13   - Yep, so the first piece comes

00:04:15   from a very excitable me that I saw on your website today

00:04:19   when I was looking for stuff to talk about today.

00:04:22   There is more emoji added in iOS 9

00:04:25   and with it brings a bunch of new flags,

00:04:27   including the Romanian flag, which I hold dear to my heart

00:04:30   because I have a girlfriend who originates from Romania.

00:04:35   So I have iOS 9 installed on my iPad

00:04:37   and I very excitedly sent her the emoji today

00:04:40   and she didn't see it naturally.

00:04:42   It just has the two letters R and D.

00:04:45   Or something like that, where it's like T and D

00:04:48   or something like that.

00:04:48   And so it didn't really help her, but it's there.

00:04:51   I'm happy that it's there because I'll get to send

00:04:53   a ironic emoji flags now, every now and then,

00:04:57   when I'm feeling fancy.

00:04:59   - Yeah, no, it's funny how emoji works.

00:05:02   Emoji is basically this ISO standard and they have,

00:05:07   they can say, okay, here are some emoji

00:05:10   that we've decided to code into Unicode and here it is.

00:05:15   And then it's up to every platform developer

00:05:18   to support emoji.

00:05:19   So if you're a website,

00:05:21   you can choose to pass the Unicode,

00:05:24   you could pass your own graphical version of it

00:05:26   and translate it yourself.

00:05:28   Different platforms have different translations,

00:05:30   different versions of the different platforms

00:05:32   have different translations.

00:05:33   So like if you're in iOS 9, you can see the Romanian flag,

00:05:37   you can see the Antarctica flag,

00:05:38   You can even see the hidden EU flag.

00:05:43   If you're on Windows, you can see the extended middle finger emoji, but not on Apple's platforms,

00:05:51   but on Apple's latest versions of their platforms, you can see the "Live Long and Prosper" Vulcan

00:05:56   hand salute emoji.

00:05:57   So it's a funny thing that it's a multi-stage process.

00:06:01   You've got to have the kind of emoji menu written, and then the platform vendors have

00:06:06   to have to basically hire or they're using their internal artists. I imagine somebody's

00:06:11   job at Apple is just to be an emoji artist, maybe many people's job. And they build or

00:06:16   they're contracting with somebody and they build like how Twitter used the icon factory

00:06:22   to build their Twitter emojis. So it's just a funny thing. And there's a site called Emojipedia

00:06:29   where there's a guy I met, we met the guy at UL and they detail what's going on in the

00:06:34   the world of emoji and I thought this was funny 22 new flags and placeholders

00:06:38   for more so if you're using the iOS 9 beta yeah you control your friends from

00:06:43   various places with their their country flags that they can't see but you can

00:06:48   it's fun times hmm the Twitter emojis weird to me like they made a whole set

00:06:55   of their own yeah I think it doesn't slack have their own set too they

00:07:01   They translate them all into graphics.

00:07:02   I think the idea there is they wanna have a unified platform

00:07:05   but it actually, I think doesn't work.

00:07:07   Like on Slack for Mac, a lot of the emojis are broken now.

00:07:10   They're fine on iOS and they're broken on the Mac

00:07:12   and I don't understand that at all.

00:07:14   Even the flags actually are broken on Slack for Mac.

00:07:20   - And all the skin colors are broken.

00:07:22   - Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, that's good.

00:07:24   Every time Casey Liss posts an emoji

00:07:26   and it's thumbs up skin color too.

00:07:28   - Yeah.

00:07:29   Oh boy, skin color too, woo.

00:07:32   Yeah, I don't know what's going on with Slack,

00:07:34   but this is the thing, you know what it is, Myke?

00:07:36   It's emoji fragmentation, that's what it is.

00:07:38   - Uh oh.

00:07:39   - We don't have a universal,

00:07:41   well, we do have a universal standard for emoji,

00:07:43   but not a universal display of emoji.

00:07:45   So those emoji are all,

00:07:47   have you seen the Microsoft emoji?

00:07:48   Some of them are really spectacularly ugly.

00:07:51   - No, I haven't seen them.

00:07:52   - Yeah, I don't like their art design

00:07:54   for their emoji at all.

00:07:56   - I'm gonna see if I can. - Apples are pretty good.

00:07:58   Yeah, I like Apple's emoji.

00:08:00   I think the thing is, like, for me, it's like,

00:08:01   that is emoji, you know?

00:08:03   I'm looking at their list now.

00:08:05   There are some peculiar ones in here.

00:08:07   - Yeah. - On Emojipedia, naturally.

00:08:09   What a great resource.

00:08:12   - Oh yeah, all the great emoji.

00:08:13   - Yep. - They're available there

00:08:15   at Emojipedia.

00:08:16   You can find out what it looks like.

00:08:18   They actually do show it on all the platforms too,

00:08:22   so you can get a preview of like,

00:08:23   what the Android Tangerine looks like,

00:08:26   which is cartoony, and then the Apple one,

00:08:29   which is much more shaded.

00:08:31   And then Microsoft, it's like a slice of a fruit.

00:08:35   - They're flat to a fault, I think.

00:08:39   - If you're just tuning in,

00:08:40   you've reached the Emoji Podcast.

00:08:43   - Emoji Hour with Myke and Jason.

00:08:45   Let's move along from Emoji.

00:08:46   Upgrade and Sean sent along the company

00:08:50   behind the Elevation Dock,

00:08:52   the much ill-fated emoji... emoji? It's taking over!

00:08:59   An emoji dock. Put your emoji on it. Just look at them.

00:09:04   The much ill-fated iPhone dock, the Kickstarter campaign that made many people very upset

00:09:10   because they shipped very very late. They have created a stand for the Apple watch,

00:09:15   which holds the watch in landscape orientation, which will be very good for the new nightstand

00:09:20   mode that they have. So that's a good one to have. This was actually available before

00:09:26   Apple announced their little night alarm mode. What are they calling it?

00:09:32   I don't know. This thing is called the Nightstand, which is funny. WatchOS 2, you know, I don't

00:09:42   know what they're calling that. Night Mode? Yeah, we'll call it Night Mode for now.

00:09:47   It may actually be called the nightstand, which is funny.

00:09:50   Yeah, nightstand mode, I think is what it's called.

00:09:52   And this thing is called the nightstand.

00:09:54   Good call, you know, elevation lab.

00:09:58   Or terrible call.

00:09:59   Well, well, no, I mean, since they proceeded it, I think they may be in the clear, but

00:10:03   it's funny that, um, some of the docs that are out there are that, that, uh, mounted,

00:10:09   uh, vertically are, may now be problematic, right?

00:10:13   if it turns out that Apple thinks that when you're docking this by your bedside anyway,

00:10:17   that you want it sideways. Now, the upright docks are maybe better if it's at your desk

00:10:22   or something, but if it's really just you need to charge it when you're sleeping, which

00:10:25   is sort of what Apple wants you to do, they want you having it on its side. Although they

00:10:30   show it with the buttons down, which is, I think, not what Apple's expecting, but I think

00:10:35   you just flip it around, it doesn't really matter, because they'll go either direction.

00:10:38   I think that's just how they shot it, you know?

00:10:40   Well it shows you that they didn't realize what was going on because if they shot it now the buttons would be pointing up since they're your snooze and cancel buttons.

00:10:49   I mean people have sent in pictures to us as well of the the high-rise the 12 South stand.

00:10:57   With it, you know, people you're able to mount it that way but it's not the way it's meant to be like it has a cut out so you can mount it vertically.

00:11:07   but so you can do it but it's not meant for that but now like if i was gonna buy

00:11:11   one right now i would go with the elevation

00:11:14   labs one because it makes sense to do it that way

00:11:17   i may actually buy a dock now because i previously i was happy just

00:11:21   i had affixed one of the charges to my desk with just some putty

00:11:25   so it just lays down doesn't move around but now maybe i will want this little

00:11:30   um a little dock to hold it in in uh in landscape mode instead yeah i think

00:11:36   I think it's, uh, I think it's really interesting.

00:11:38   I mean it looks, it looks nice and there's functionality to it I guess.

00:11:42   Um, on the Apple Watch battery, I know this isn't much spoken about

00:11:46   discussion, but it was just interesting to me that, to me, that like I had my

00:11:50   watch on for basically two full days as I was traveling without charging,

00:11:55   and it just went all the way. It went the whole way. It was totally fine.

00:11:59   I didn't even need to think about it. Yeah, I think,

00:12:02   I think when you're not exercising, where that all the sensors are really on,

00:12:11   that battery life is, and you're not just heavily using the apps all the time playing a game or

00:12:15   something like that, which you shouldn't do, the battery life is great, right? I mean it really is great.

00:12:22   I have to say I'm a little bit out of sorts today. Are you? Yeah. Is it the jet lag? I'm all over the place.

00:12:29   Have you had sleep issues?

00:12:31   Yeah, oh, I got home. So basically I left at, you know, what was...

00:12:37   Like I say, I woke up at half past six in the morning or something.

00:12:41   Maybe 7am.

00:12:43   In San Francisco?

00:12:44   In San Francisco time, yeah.

00:12:45   And then my flight was at noon, right?

00:12:47   So it ended up arriving home here at 7am, so I didn't sleep.

00:12:51   So then I'm like still awake and it's 7am here.

00:12:54   So then I have to go the whole day here as well.

00:12:57   I don't know, all over the place.

00:13:00   And then I kind of fell, I fell asleep at 9 p.m.,

00:13:02   woke up at 3 a.m. (laughs)

00:13:05   and then fell asleep again at like five

00:13:06   and then woke up at eight.

00:13:08   So I've had enough sleep, but it's like all over the map.

00:13:10   I'm like, I don't know where I'm coming or going today.

00:13:13   - I was exhausted last week, not changing time zones.

00:13:17   It was still exhausting because it was not only

00:13:18   were they incredibly packed days, so many things happening,

00:13:21   so many people around, and it's also that time of year

00:13:26   where it gets light really, really early.

00:13:28   And so that wakes me up.

00:13:30   This is, I don't sleep very well this time of year

00:13:32   because I wake up at five in the morning

00:13:34   'cause it's light out at five in the morning.

00:13:36   And now I have a cat that also would like to wake me up

00:13:38   at five in the morning to feed him, which I refuse to do,

00:13:41   which means he just bugs me until I get up at seven or 6.30

00:13:44   or whenever I get up to actually feed him.

00:13:47   And we were, there were late nights and we had guests

00:13:49   and we had people over at the house

00:13:51   and all of those things.

00:13:52   And you know, like Thursday I was exhausted

00:13:55   or Wednesday I was exhausted, Friday I was completely spent.

00:13:59   And I went to bed at 9.30 and we tried to watch some TV

00:14:04   in bed before going to sleep.

00:14:06   And I never do this, I just completely fell asleep

00:14:09   with the TV on, like snoring and just totally out.

00:14:13   And Saturday I went to bed early too,

00:14:15   because I just was, yeah.

00:14:17   So even without travel, I think it was an exhausting week.

00:14:21   and then you had you you you went plus eight and had to fly all that way.

00:14:26   Mm-hmm. Yeah. Did you did you go direct or did you have to change planes?

00:14:29   I did go direct this time. That's good. That's that's that saves a lot of time

00:14:33   going London, San Francisco direct. It's direct with wi-fi.

00:14:40   That was magical. Is that satellite wi-fi? Can you do the wi-fi over the

00:14:45   over the over the ocean? I believe it's satellite wi-fi which is the only way it

00:14:49   it can be done. That's the best way to do it. It's good.

00:14:53   So I was very happy about that. But we do have some more follow up.

00:14:57   If you're tuning in now, it's Emoji and Sleep Disorder podcast.

00:15:03   Marlon wrote in, I want to read what Marlon wrote in and we can talk about it. I have

00:15:06   to disagree with your comments towards the introduction of Metal on OS X. Gaming is a

00:15:11   major component of the iOS experience now for a lot of people, and anyone looking to

00:15:15   to

00:15:29   We actually had quite a few people write in about this and I think that maybe our main

00:15:35   comment was misunderstood a little bit.

00:15:38   So I think that Metal is important, I think that gaming is important.

00:15:41   I love gaming, I have a whole video game podcast on this network called Virtual, like I am

00:15:45   a big gamer.

00:15:47   I just think that for me, in that environment, to show what Metal could really mean for OSX,

00:15:54   I think they should have shown how Metal can improve performance in non-gaming apps because

00:15:59   The gaming demo didn't really show people how much better it was going to make things.

00:16:04   It showed game developers, but I feel like there are different places that Apple could

00:16:07   show that, like at E3 this week, or something like that.

00:16:11   There are different ways that they can try and show the gaming performance enhancements.

00:16:15   I think that maybe they could have shown that and also had a demo to show stuff like things

00:16:21   from Adobe.

00:16:23   Because obviously metal is really important for OS X, but I would like to see more than

00:16:28   just video games. But I hope that it has worked for gaming developers and that they're gonna

00:16:33   embrace it more.

00:16:34   >>TIM And I watched the State of the Union demo, by the way, and there is a there is

00:16:38   a or the State of the Union session and there's an Adobe demo in there that shows the live

00:16:42   zoom in Illustrator in a gigantic Illustrator file and it's and it's very impressive and

00:16:48   and that's it's got Adobe's full endorsement that they're gonna bring Creative Cloud on

00:16:52   Mac onto Metal. You know, Mac gaming, look, I was the editor of the game column in Macworld

00:17:00   for many years. I think what I'd say is, the message that Metal is important, and it's

00:17:07   important for game developers to develop their iOS games, you know, potentially using the

00:17:13   Mac. I heard Brianna Wu wrote a piece on iMore, I think, about how important it was for her

00:17:20   as somebody who develops on the Mac that the performance while she's developing is that

00:17:26   much better. I thought the game demo went on too long and that it would they briefly

00:17:31   talked about the development and then there was a whole lot of let's show it show us your

00:17:35   game, and I was less excited about that. And I gotta be honest, I feel for Mac game fans,

00:17:43   but having watched this story for 20 years, I feel like it's a little bit like Charlie

00:17:46   Brown and the football. PC gaming is on the wane on its own, just computer gaming is on

00:17:52   the wane versus mobile and consoles. And within that, the Mac is always second fiddle, and

00:18:01   I don't anticipate the Mac ever being a major game platform in any way. I just don't see

00:18:07   it. And so I feel like there are better things to show off metal on Mac than a game demo.

00:18:13   Now the game developer part at a developer conference I think is solid.

00:18:17   I just felt like it started to stray into, "Look at this game that we're playing here,

00:18:22   and isn't this a clever concept?"

00:18:25   And that's when I felt like they were just sort of wasting my time.

00:18:29   And I don't mean to disparage people who want to play games on the Mac.

00:18:33   I play games on the Mac too.

00:18:35   But you know, it is the second choice platform, if--or the non-choice platform for most PC

00:18:43   game developers and PC gaming itself is, I would say, on the wane. Doesn't mean it doesn't

00:18:50   have great advantages over console or mobile, I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that,

00:18:55   you know, when we talk about Mac gaming we're talking about a fraction of a fraction and

00:18:58   it's always been that way and I don't think it's going to change and the success of El

00:19:02   Capitan is not going to be based on people playing games on the Mac. It's, you know,

00:19:07   I just don't think it is. That may be an unpopular opinion but that is my opinion which is why

00:19:12   I was not thrilled with the way they chose to present it. You know, that's my take on

00:19:18   it. I feel like this was a quid pro quo where the game developer was willing to come on

00:19:23   stage and put in the time to do some stuff in Metal, but they also wanted to use it as

00:19:27   a commercial for their game. And fair enough for them, good job. But as a--when we're criticizing

00:19:34   the presentation aspects of the keynote, that's where it ran off the rails for me as I felt

00:19:39   like they were given they were given too much time to just do their gameplay demo

00:19:43   and I don't you know honestly I didn't think it was particularly thrilling as a

00:19:47   bit of gameplay demo and I certainly didn't sit there going wow those you

00:19:52   know that those graphics and those frame rates are amazing so you know that's

00:19:56   that's my take on it I I would I would absolutely have rather seen Adobe's demo

00:20:00   than the game demo in the keynote because I think the non game developers

00:20:05   are more important than game developers on the Mac if I had to choose one.

00:20:10   >> SIDNEY MULLIS: Email. I can hear the email coming.

00:20:14   >> BRIAN KARDELL-MORAN: Yeah, well, you know, I've got to be honest about it. I feel for

00:20:17   Mac gaming. I have been an advocate for Mac gaming. I've seen great advocates for Mac

00:20:23   gaming. I've seen the Mac game world wax and wane over time. But I just -- I feel like

00:20:29   I'm kind of over it. It's never going to be a priority for a large number of developers.

00:20:34   And even for people who use a Mac, I think most of them play games on other platforms.

00:20:39   They play them on iOS, they play them on a console, and the really serious gamers are

00:20:45   booting their Macs into Windows and playing PC versions of games.

00:20:48   Even John Siracusa, who cannot bear to have a Microsoft Xbox in his house because it's

00:20:53   from Microsoft, has Windows for games.

00:20:57   So on his Mac.

00:20:58   So I just, I don't know.

00:21:00   I'm trying to keep it real, I guess, even though it's unpopular.

00:21:04   But I don't mean to denigrate Mac gamers, and I don't think you did either.

00:21:08   That's definitely not the point.

00:21:09   I just, in terms of priorities, I think, you know, Pro Apps from Adobe is going to be a

00:21:13   higher priority in terms of impressing the developers at WWDC and in terms of the user

00:21:19   story for what it's worth.

00:21:21   >> Last piece of follow-up today comes from Upgrading Tom, who just had a great little

00:21:26   suggestion that I quite liked about complications.

00:21:28   So Tom says, "One of the things I'd love to see with WatchOS 2 is the ability to set one

00:21:33   complication as replaceable by something that's currently active.

00:21:36   For example, I'd love to be able to have the sunrise and sunset complication as a thing

00:21:40   that's always there, but if I use Siri to set a timer, I'd want the timer complication

00:21:44   to be automatically swapped in for the sunrise/sunset complication because that's more relevant to

00:21:49   me at that time, and the timer complication is only useful as a shortcut when it's running.

00:21:54   I really like that.

00:21:55   I thought it was very smart.

00:21:56   Yeah, I think the only issue is how you set that in the UI, because it risks being really

00:22:00   fiddly when you say, all right, how in the—when you force press to bring up the—customize

00:22:06   your watch face, how do you say, "Well, I want this complication here, but when there's

00:22:11   a timer—" I mean, I think the very Apple way to do it would be to just decide that

00:22:15   the timer always goes in this complication.

00:22:18   And while your timer is running—if you need a complication visible while your timers are

00:22:25   running, don't put it there, because it's always going to be in the bottom left, or

00:22:28   it's always going to be in the top right, or wherever it is.

00:22:31   And I think Apple could do that, and I would love that.

00:22:32   We talked about that, I think, a couple of weeks ago, the idea that you should be able

00:22:36   to use a complication space for a couple different things so that when your calendar has nothing

00:22:40   in it, maybe it just goes away, and maybe there's something else there, there's a second

00:22:43   piece of information.

00:22:45   I think that will come, but not yet.

00:22:51   I think, obviously, this is a new platform.

00:22:54   But I agree.

00:22:55   I find it kind of baffling that I set a timer and, you know, if you set a timer or a stopwatch,

00:23:00   you should see it on the face.

00:23:01   You should.

00:23:02   You should see it while it's running.

00:23:03   That should be there.

00:23:05   And you shouldn't have to have a blank timer complication sitting on your watch face all

00:23:11   the time just because, you know, two or three times a week you have to set a timer when

00:23:17   you're cooking dinner.

00:23:18   >> Yup.

00:23:19   I agree.

00:23:20   >> Really?

00:23:21   >> I agree.

00:23:22   I agree. I like the suggestion. I wish it was possible.

00:23:25   Even if there was a way to just show the timer UI on all watch faces.

00:23:30   So it just pops up in a specific area whilst it's checked.

00:23:32   Yeah.

00:23:33   That would be nice. Because timers seem like a really cool, important part.

00:23:36   Maybe just, you know...

00:23:37   It works on the phone. On the phone, it lets you know if you've got a timer set.

00:23:41   Yeah. It does, doesn't it? It just ticks away underneath the clock.

00:23:44   Mm-hmm.

00:23:45   Yeah, that'd be interesting. Anyway.

00:23:47   Shall we dive in a little bit more into our feelings a week later from WWDC?

00:23:53   I think that is a good idea.

00:23:55   Awesome.

00:23:56   Let me just take a quick break first.

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00:26:32   So we're a week removed now, a week to today from the keynote.

00:26:37   Have you had any more time to like sit and process and think about WWDC, about the things

00:26:43   that are announced and that kind of thing?

00:26:45   How are you feeling about it now, Jason?

00:26:48   Well I have had some time, I've also watched I think three so far sessions on video which

00:26:55   has been nice to get to sort of remotely attend, you know, time shift my attendance at the

00:27:01   conference and think about it a little bit. You know, it really does help to get away

00:27:08   from the immediate aftermath of the music portion of the keynote and think about that.

00:27:15   I think it helped to get our minds off of it a little bit. I mean, we all talked about

00:27:18   it some, but also, you know, we're talking with each other, everybody covering the event

00:27:23   about some different things. I think that was good to give it a little perspective too

00:27:26   and think about it. And also people have been able to, through other sessions and also through

00:27:30   digging into the betas have some more perspective about it.

00:27:37   One thing, yeah, I mean, plus all the personal stuff of people coming over to my house and

00:27:46   cooking them food and things like that, it was a busy week and I think maybe your mind

00:27:51   has some background processes that are functioning when you're doing that other stuff and I think

00:27:55   It's good that, you know, you're almost like pondering in the background while you're doing

00:28:01   other things.

00:28:02   So I think that's been useful.

00:28:03   How about you?

00:28:04   Do you have—have your thoughts evolved in the last week?

00:28:07   >> It's interesting because I haven't really done an awful lot of, like, diving into stuff

00:28:12   myself, but I've been listening to shows and picking up some pieces here and there.

00:28:19   You know, talking to Federico on Connected, you know, he did his best to calm me down

00:28:25   a little bit about the music portion. Not that I necessarily agree with him completely,

00:28:32   but he did help at least me put a little bit more perspective on it.

00:28:39   I'm interested in the product, you know, I have my negative feelings about the way they

00:28:43   presented it, but I'm, it doesn't matter. Essentially it doesn't matter, I'm interested

00:28:47   in the product. Turns out my Beats subscription ends like July 3rd or something like that.

00:28:53   timing. Just not renew that because it's not going to be around anymore and move

00:28:59   on to this. I've been looking forward to the speaking of Federico to trying out

00:29:06   iOS 9 on the iPad and I just took delivery of a refurbished iPad Air 2

00:29:10   that I bought on Apple's site a few days ago and you I was present when you bought

00:29:16   an iPad Air 2 at the Apple Store. In San Francisco.

00:29:20   Yep, I bought an Air 2 for a similar kind of reason. I mean I bought a new one because

00:29:24   with the savings that I make from the dollar conversion, I could then, if I sold it on

00:29:29   in like a few months time, if I got a new big iPad maybe, I wouldn't lose that much

00:29:35   money at all on it to be honest. So it ends up, you know, I kind of ended up getting it

00:29:39   for the cost that I would have got pre-owned here or something like that. And I installed

00:29:44   the beta on it yesterday. I don't know if there are embargo, not embargoes, NDAs?

00:29:49   Are we in the same similar sort of situation as last year? I'm going to assume that we

00:29:53   are which means I will just talk about it and see what happens later.

00:29:56   I think there are specific things that they don't want you to do like write a review of

00:30:01   it or you know developers have other constraints but it's you know people are talking about

00:30:05   it. It's just it's out there and Apple knows that.

00:30:07   Yeah so I've played around a little bit and I'm very interested in it. It's surprisingly

00:30:14   stable with the beta overall to be honest. And of the apps that I'm using I haven't

00:30:19   noticed any significant problems. There are a few little UI tweaks here and there

00:30:23   that need to be considered but nothing is like catastrophically breaking for me

00:30:28   yet. Not that I would suggest that you install it, you know, just like to put that

00:30:31   out there saying from my own experience. Because I bought this iPad primarily to

00:30:35   try it on, right, so it's completely fresh install that kind of thing. And I

00:30:41   I like what I'm seeing.

00:30:42   I very much like the split screen stuff

00:30:45   and I'm excited to be able to do that in more apps.

00:30:49   Not just forcing myself into using apps

00:30:52   that have it built in, all of Apple's apps,

00:30:54   but using the apps that I like to use

00:30:55   and seeing the split screen stuff in there.

00:30:57   Because I see the utility, like for example today,

00:31:00   earlier today I was watching one of the three presentations

00:31:04   and I was taking notes on paper whilst watching it on my TV.

00:31:07   I was thinking it might be quite nice

00:31:09   to do the picture in picture

00:31:10   and take the notes on my iPad.

00:31:12   That seems like a nice way of marrying that stuff up.

00:31:16   'Cause the picture in picture stuff

00:31:17   is really, really cool, right?

00:31:18   Being able to watch video.

00:31:19   But of course this only works with a native player

00:31:21   at the moment because people haven't,

00:31:23   they haven't been able to implement the API.

00:31:28   I assume there's an API for it.

00:31:30   'Cause like a lot of apps like YouTube, for example,

00:31:32   they have their own video player that they built.

00:31:35   - Right.

00:31:36   - So I'm excited to see if that's gonna be the case.

00:31:38   like if people were going to actually have that as a thing and they're going to be able

00:31:42   to implement that so other people can use it as well. I assume that they will, it would

00:31:46   be kind of crazy if they didn't. But there are things there that really do exactly what

00:31:52   I wanted the iPad to be able to do and that's the main thing that I've been thinking about

00:31:55   this week, is the iPad actually. I haven't really put too much thought into OS X, there's

00:32:01   not a lot in there necessarily for me right now that I think actually changes much. But

00:32:08   Apple's positioning of the iPad now seems like they're really treating it as a product

00:32:13   class all of its own.

00:32:15   I mean, you know, some of the features that seem to be just for the iPad aren't.

00:32:19   Like for example, the text selection stuff.

00:32:21   That's actually on the iPhone as well.

00:32:23   Yeah, Serenity had her iPhone running iOS 9.

00:32:29   Such a bad idea, but bless her.

00:32:31   And she showed that.

00:32:32   She was passing that around in my living room.

00:32:35   we were all doing the little two finger, you know, move the selection point around and

00:32:39   all of that. And that was pretty cool. And that's on a regular old iPhone 6, not even

00:32:43   a 6 Plus. So I think that says something. I think that says something about Apple considering

00:32:50   that a feature that's really for people who use the iPad. And iPhone users may use it

00:32:53   too, but they really wanted to make that impression that this is, these are features that we care

00:33:00   about most on iPad because of how people use the iPad.

00:33:03   But you know, the only thing about it is a lot of this stuff is currently on one model.

00:33:10   And it'll be interesting to see if, come October, say, what that's gonna look like.

00:33:17   I mean, I can't see these features, like these split-screen features, being able to really

00:33:21   truly work on an iPad Mini.

00:33:24   Well, it will be interesting to see if they are supported on the iPad Mini 4, right?

00:33:31   Let's assume there's an iPad Mini 4 and it has the same specs as the iPad Air 2.

00:33:36   Then it could do it.

00:33:38   Same number of pixels, it's just in a smaller space.

00:33:41   And as an iPad Mini user, I don't see why you wouldn't allow people to do that, because

00:33:47   it just is, everything's just a little bit smaller.

00:33:50   But it's all the same stuff, the same information crammed into just a smaller space.

00:33:56   So it will be interesting to see if they do that.

00:33:59   I would think that they would, that they wouldn't say, "Well, nope, the Mini can't support it,"

00:34:03   because the Mini is going to support slide-over, and that's a similar kind of feature.

00:34:07   I think it will support it, because the specs are the same, right?

00:34:12   Because the dots on the screens are the same, you might as well support it.

00:34:15   But it is interesting.

00:34:17   So it's basically every iPad Air 1 and 2 and every mini except the first one support SlideOver

00:34:24   and Picture-in-Picture, but only the Air 2 supports this other stuff because it's got

00:34:28   so much more RAM and the extra processor core.

00:34:32   And that's going to be the baseline, right?

00:34:34   Presumably this fall we're going to get a faster iPad Air, we're going to get an iPad

00:34:39   Mini that's like the Air 2, and then we're probably going to get a larger iPad, an iPad

00:34:43   Pro or whatever you want to call it, that may have the same specs as the Air 3, let's

00:34:49   say? That seems like a decent guess. Maybe better, but maybe the same. And that's an

00:34:56   interesting product line, because that is, with these features I feel like the Air 2

00:34:59   is already verging on being almost a laptop. Like, you can see it getting closer and closer.

00:35:05   The iOS is pushing up to features that we previously sort of put on the other side of

00:35:09   the bar, right, like the other side of the wall. It's like those are

00:35:12   computer features and the iPad doesn't do that. And now Apple is saying,

00:35:16   "Yeah, actually the iPad does do that." And then you get the bigger screen iPad and

00:35:20   I think it gets really interesting about, you know, what should you choose an iPad

00:35:26   or should you choose a Mac.

00:35:27   Considering that these multitasking features are working on the Air 2, what could an iPad Pro's selling point be?

00:35:38   >> Well, size. I mean, I think the big one is size. I think more space to multitask.

00:35:49   Bigger keyboard. You know, just bigger is better. And it's not like this is a freakishly

00:35:55   large iPad in that sense, because the rumors are a 12-inch screen, right? That's the MacBook

00:36:00   without the keyboard.

00:36:01   >> Yeah, and they probably do something to bring the margins of it in a little bit more,

00:36:07   the bezels and stuff so the actual physical screen size hopefully won't necessarily make

00:36:13   the they won't just stretch it out again and then you end up with like a 15 inch device

00:36:18   or something in total.

00:36:19   Right it's it's not it's not what we think of as large in terms of Mac stuff it's just

00:36:23   larger than the 10 inch iPad but that's a Apple's never made has no Apple's never made

00:36:28   a 10 inch laptop have they or certainly not in recent memory I mean that's we think of

00:36:35   a 10-inch laptop and we think, well, that's ridiculous. You know, 11 on the smallest MacBook

00:36:40   Air, right, is still a larger diagonal measurement than an iPad screen. And so a 12-inch iPad

00:36:48   is not ridiculous. It's just bigger. And so there's more space for everything. There was

00:36:52   a report today, Steve Trouton-Smith did what he always does, which is root around in these

00:36:58   -- now all the Australians are laughing. He's finding all the secret things that are inside

00:37:04   betas and he found a jumbo-sized keyboard layout that looks like it very

00:37:09   much could be the iPad Pro keyboard layout and it's got more room for more

00:37:12   stuff like a tab key and I mean it's just it feels even more like a regular

00:37:18   keyboard on the software keyboard and I think that's the biggest appeal for a

00:37:22   product like that it's just it feels you know there's more room to work.

00:37:27   Yeah that was interesting like what Steve found but I guess it's just normal

00:37:32   for him right we we just assumed that he's gonna find something you just gonna

00:37:36   give him a couple of days and the guys digging up stuff like you I also saw him

00:37:39   say on Twitter today that he seems references to the TV stuff he's also got

00:37:45   a he got a Nintendo emulator running on the Apple watch last week did you see

00:37:50   that I did see that they basically jail broke the Apple watch and they

00:37:53   refused to say how because they don't want Apple to close the hole but they

00:37:57   were able to get native like native apps not like watch kit apps but like native

00:38:01   native apps, like using iPhone frameworks running on the Apple Watch. And I think he

00:38:07   said they were able to play Nintendo games emulated on an Apple Watch for several minutes

00:38:11   before they completely killed the battery. But still, he does stuff like that. But anyway,

00:38:18   I, you know, I think you're right. I've been spending most of my time that I've been thinking

00:38:23   about these announcements thinking about the iPad. A little bit about the iPhone and a

00:38:28   little bit about the Apple Watch. Not a lot about the Mac, I agree, I'm, you know,

00:38:32   I'm looking forward to the details in El Capitan. I have installed an El Capitan

00:38:36   beta on an external hard drive so I can start trying it out in the first beta,

00:38:40   but the iPad stuff seemed really, really interesting, and the Apple Watch

00:38:47   stuff is intriguing, but I feel like there I'm waiting for developers to tell

00:38:51   us the truth, right? I mean, we heard, like, you know, I know some developers were

00:38:57   able to get that stuff up and running really quickly. I spoke to a couple of

00:39:01   people who, like friend of the show John Voorhees told me it took him literally

00:39:08   10 minutes because he was already he had a universal app and he had already

00:39:14   implemented size classes and he said it took him 10 minutes of code and he had

00:39:19   it running. He says it needed some tweaking but he said because he followed that

00:39:23   properly, he was able to get that, like Apple weren't kidding, he got that

00:39:28   running really really fast. So my thinking about that is developers who

00:39:32   have not used size classes, like this is gonna be a tough few months for them as

00:39:38   they try and get their like iOS 7, iOS 8 apps that were designed in certain ways

00:39:43   to now observe this and I think that's gonna be rough. Yeah I heard from one

00:39:50   developer who I think we've mentioned on the show before, but he said he got his app running

00:39:55   in slide out--slide over in five minutes and four minutes of that was compiling. It's like

00:40:02   it just works because that app is--has the size classes and the layouts and it just works

00:40:07   fine. So I'm interested in hearing that story because that's always what comes out of WWDC.

00:40:13   You come out with all this great stuff and then the reality hits where a developer goes,

00:40:17   So, it doesn't do this.

00:40:19   And then it becomes a question of, is that an oversight, and is Apple going to correct

00:40:23   that?

00:40:24   Or is that policy, and Apple's not going to correct it, and you just—everybody's dream

00:40:28   of what can be capable of that—what that new feature could enable is dashed.

00:40:33   And it's like, nope, that's not—we thought that would be this thing, but it turns out

00:40:37   not.

00:40:38   Maybe next year.

00:40:39   And on the Apple Watch, I think that's really the case, is what does this enable?

00:40:43   What are the cool ideas and what things do we kind of, did we have sort of vague hope

00:40:47   we're going to be on the Apple Watch that are just not going to make it?

00:40:50   And I'm really looking forward to hearing the saga of Marco and Overcast and whether

00:40:58   he decides to do it on the Apple Watch or not.

00:41:01   Because he's one guy and he's got a list of features that he wants to prioritize and Apple

00:41:07   Watch could be a real distraction.

00:41:08   So he has to say, is this technically feasible and who's going to use it?

00:41:12   But I'm really intrigued by the idea of him putting, you know, loading podcasts on the

00:41:18   Apple Watch's storage so that you could listen to them natively even when your phone is not

00:41:21   around.

00:41:22   There's so much work that he was mentioning, you know, this idea of possibly even rendering

00:41:27   on ATP last week, he said, maybe even rendering out episodes with Smart Speed and Voice Boost

00:41:32   already burned in because you have to use the default OS player on the watch.

00:41:37   He can't be running and doing Smart Speed on the watch.

00:41:40   So he would have to do that work on the iPhone and then transfer the changed version over

00:41:45   to your watch.

00:41:46   Well, that's kind of crazy, but kind of cool.

00:41:48   It'll be interesting to see what he decides, because seeing key developers make these decisions

00:41:53   about what they're doing with the Apple Watch or what they're doing with split-screen mode,

00:41:58   that is going to tell the story of not whether these features will get used or not, but how

00:42:03   they get used, because right now it could be anything.

00:42:05   And we're going to get to that moment where we're going to realize, oh, this whole category

00:42:09   things that we dreamed about aren't going to happen, but this stuff is going to happen

00:42:13   because that's working and that's interesting. And that's actually one of the most fun things

00:42:16   about the summer after WWDC is watching as all these smart developers go home and start

00:42:21   to ponder how they're going to take advantage of this stuff and if they can realize their

00:42:26   dream or if it's just not going to work with what Apple has given them.

00:42:30   I think one of the things that we're going to see and from what I heard from a lot of

00:42:34   people is just that watch apps are just going to be more responsive. Like, so we're going

00:42:38   get what we've got now and it's gonna work better but then it's how many

00:42:42   developers then decide to make a decision to take their apps further than

00:42:46   they currently are and that's exactly what we're talking about here right

00:42:48   Overcast exists on the watch Marco will probably definitely well I would assume

00:42:52   definitely make it so it's running more natively right see things are faster and

00:42:58   the controls are quicker and that kind of stuff like you you press to open it

00:43:01   and open straight away rather than you sit and spin in and spin in it's right

00:43:04   and you can you'll be able to use the crown to control the volume that easy

00:43:07   one. But it's do you take it to the next to the next logical level or is that

00:43:13   logical level actually too difficult to create? And like you know because it's

00:43:17   like he could do all of that stuff that is mentioned but then you were creating

00:43:20   a third experience that requires different thinking for the customer

00:43:24   because not everything's gonna be there you will have to make the decision to

00:43:27   send things there because just storage space wise you can't mirror it. So it's

00:43:32   really interesting to think in that regard like what do you do and that's

00:43:36   what the next few maybe next six months are gonna tell is how many developers

00:43:40   decide to go all-in on this or are they gonna wait. One of the things that kept

00:43:45   coming up as well is when is the next Apple Watch gonna come out because I

00:43:51   know that this is you know reading the tea leaves but you're looking at OS 2

00:43:55   right that's gonna come out in the fall. Now people are still receiving the

00:44:00   Apple watches that they ordered in April. So it feels very unlikely at this

00:44:06   point that we're gonna get another one in September or October. So it feels like

00:44:11   this is gonna go into maybe September 2016 before the next one? If I had to guess, if I had to

00:44:19   make a guess about when the next Apple watch would come out that would be my

00:44:22   guess is fall of 2016. That they get a year and a half on this piece of hardware.

00:44:27   But you know what they can do for holiday season? The holiday season bands.

00:44:32   Sure. Because I genuinely feel like it doesn't need to be an annual product.

00:44:38   Like you could do every two years and just have new bands every season.

00:44:43   They could even do new enclosures, right? They could add a totally different style

00:44:49   of enclosure, of metal, with the same hardware inside. Yeah. And say, "Oh, you know, now

00:44:56   we're gonna do a brushed aluminum or whatever they decide, or we're gonna do sport in a

00:45:01   different color." And they could do that too. But I doubt that hardware is changing until

00:45:07   fall of next year because that gives it time to settle and because I think you're right,

00:45:11   I don't think this needs to be a cycle, an annual cycle. On Clockwise last week, Dan

00:45:16   Morin brought that up, right? This relentless one-year cycle for some of these products.

00:45:20   I don't think the watch needs it and I think Apple would rather not be on that pace either.

00:45:25   I think it would be nice to have something that I don't have to buy with $500 worth every

00:45:30   year.

00:45:31   Like, I wouldn't mind buying more bands.

00:45:34   Like, I have a few bands and smaller transactions and it keeps the watch feeling new.

00:45:39   That for me feels like the ideal scenario, but we'll have to wait and see.

00:45:43   Because it all depends on what do Apple think that they can really do to the thing.

00:45:47   And if it's not worth an annual cycle, then it's not worth it.

00:45:50   But if it is, then they'll do it.

00:45:52   Another thing that came up last week that I wanted to mention again is, it actually

00:45:56   was reminding me of how Pebble did their launch. Because Pebble, when they started, they said,

00:46:01   "Okay, we got to get the hardware right." They focused all their attention on the hardware.

00:46:05   They put huge amounts of stuff in the Pebble hardware, and they shipped it, and the software

00:46:10   did almost nothing. But you know what? It was the right decision, because you can't

00:46:14   update hardware remotely, but you can update software remotely. I feel like that is what

00:46:20   Apple's doing here. That's why we get this watchOS 2 announcement. They're saying, you

00:46:24   know, we built this really nice piece of hardware. We're still building the platform, right?

00:46:28   We're still building the platform under it. And no, it's never going to get it. The new

00:46:34   the old hardware is not going to get support for GPS and not going to have a cellular modem,

00:46:39   you know, magically programmed into it, but it is going to get a lot more functionality

00:46:44   as we go. And then at some point, yeah, the hardware will change and and you see the indications

00:46:49   already. Like the fact that an untethered Apple Watch app is going to be able to use

00:46:53   Wi-Fi if you're at Starbucks and you only have your watch and it knows the Starbucks

00:46:59   Wi-Fi, then it will just be able to use it. And the apps will be able to get data off

00:47:05   the internet without going through the phone. You look at something like that and you think,

00:47:08   well, you know, step two is, then there's a watch that's always on the internet. And

00:47:14   that'll probably come maybe not next year, but maybe the year after. And you know, that's

00:47:18   the direction it's all going, we can see that. But there's a long way to go and there's a

00:47:25   lot of platform to build between now and the next hardware update. And I think that's a

00:47:30   good place for this product to be, is good hardware and the software now is going to

00:47:35   keep making the hardware you already bought better, and that's going to extend the life

00:47:38   of the product.

00:47:39   - Should we take a break?

00:47:41   - I have one more WWDC thing if you don't mind.

00:47:47   Is that okay? - Yeah, go for it.

00:47:47   Yeah, go for it. - We can do it

00:47:48   on the other side if you want.

00:47:49   So I wanted to mention naming

00:47:51   because naming has been a thing.

00:47:53   And some people were sort of saying,

00:47:54   "Oh, Jason, you predicted that they would change

00:47:57   "the name of OS X," which I didn't predict.

00:47:59   I was much more like, wouldn't it be nice if.

00:48:01   I wasn't playing that game of fearless predictions.

00:48:06   It was more like, you know, I like the idea of Mac OS instead of OS X. And we got two

00:48:10   pieces of feedback thinking exactly what I was thinking when I was sitting in the front

00:48:14   row of the talk show listening to Phil Schiller talk to John Gruber last week, where he basically

00:48:19   gave -- Gruber gave Phil a hard time about watch OS with the lowercase w. And he's like,

00:48:25   "Are you trying to kill me here?" And Schiller said something like, "Give us time." You know.

00:48:29   It all makes sense.

00:48:31   It'll all make sense.

00:48:33   And so Toph and Travis both wrote in and said, "So, what does that mean that we'll have MacOS

00:48:39   next year with the lowercase m and all one word just in the style of watchOS and iOS?"

00:48:45   And I think his, I mean, give us time, who knows what he meant by that.

00:48:50   But if I had to guess, it's either your crazy idea, which is that there's an even grander

00:48:55   scheme at work here.

00:48:56   But you know, I, and it's going to be Apple OS.

00:49:00   - That was a part of me, man, where I was like,

00:49:03   'cause everyone's screaming at me for this Apple phone thing

00:49:07   that I keep throwing around an Apple OS,

00:49:09   but yeah, you never know.

00:49:11   - But I'm not sure you brand, I mean,

00:49:13   is watchOS just a placeholder until they do this?

00:49:16   But it would totally be consistent

00:49:18   if they then rebranded OS X next year as Mac OS,

00:49:22   like watchOS and iOS, and they incremented it to 11,

00:49:25   'cause that would mean next year would be iOS X,

00:49:27   watchOS 3, and Mac OS 11,

00:49:29   and they would continue to just go up from there.

00:49:32   Maybe?

00:49:33   - Maybe.

00:49:34   - Maybe.

00:49:35   So that was tantalizing, I would say,

00:49:38   when Phil, with a gleam in his eye,

00:49:40   Phil Schiller winked at the crowd.

00:49:41   No, none of that happened,

00:49:42   but he did say, sort of, give us time,

00:49:44   it'll all make sense.

00:49:45   And it does sort of feel like that.

00:49:47   Like this is the,

00:49:48   this is what they would like to do

00:49:51   with their branding on their operating system side,

00:49:54   to separate it and style it in a certain way.

00:49:56   And maybe that's what they're doing with Watch.

00:49:58   Why WatchOS is like that,

00:49:59   which seems weird to us, but it's actually just like iOS.

00:50:02   It starts with lowercase and ends with a capital OS.

00:50:05   If they do that, then Mac OS could not be far behind

00:50:07   for all the reasons that I elaborated on

00:50:09   in that column that I wrote about why OS X

00:50:11   is kind of old and tired and it runs the Mac anyway,

00:50:13   so why not just call it that?

00:50:15   And then you could say it's the Apple OS family, right?

00:50:19   Apple OS family of iOS, watchOS, and Mac OS.

00:50:23   So maybe that's what we'll see.

00:50:24   And then everybody can grimace at the fact

00:50:27   that Mac OS is suddenly one word

00:50:28   with a lowercase Mac. But only time will tell as they say.

00:50:35   This week's episode of Upgrade is also brought to you by Field Notes. I love Field Notes.

00:50:40   We spoke about them a couple of weeks ago and I really want you to go and check out

00:50:43   their new edition called the Workshop Edition. Field Notes make great notebooks. They've

00:50:48   been my notebooks that I've used for many many years now and they're the one that I

00:50:52   use every day. I was taking some notes on Microsoft's E3 conference earlier today and

00:50:57   I grabbed a Field Notes notebook for that. I have a different Field Notes notebook sipped

00:51:00   next to me right now which I take down notes as we record the shows. They're great for

00:51:04   all types of purposes. They're great for this type of note taking. Many of my friends that

00:51:08   were in the keynote last week or in sessions in WWDC were using Field Notes because they

00:51:13   slip right in your pocket and they don't interrupt it. They have soft covers on them and they're

00:51:17   very easy and pliable and they wear really nicely. Field Notes are for everything. They're

00:51:22   for taking notes from conferences, they're for taking shopping lists, they're for writing

00:51:26   down your plans for world domination. Whatever you want to use Field Notes for you can use

00:51:30   them. They're nice and adaptable. The paper's really great quality. I mean I use all types

00:51:35   of pens. I use fountain pens, pencils, roller balls, all types of pens in my Field Notes

00:51:39   and I always love the way that they come out. Especially this new edition, the Workshop

00:51:43   Companion Edition, they're using a great thick paper in there which I really love. Each of

00:51:47   these books, they've got six books that come in the Workshop Companion which is the new

00:51:51   edition that Field Notes are running for summer this year and they're each themed to a common

00:51:55   project to be done around the house like electrical work, plumbing, painting, gardening, automotive

00:52:00   and woodworking. And if you are a Field Notes colour subscriber like I am you'll get a workshop

00:52:05   reminder magnet too. If you're a colour subscriber what this means is that you're going to get

00:52:09   in the mail to you directly every year each of the seasonal editions that Field Notes

00:52:14   does. They do four a year and they come to you automatically as a colour subscriber.

00:52:18   Save a little bit of money and you just don't have to worry about it you're definitely going

00:52:21   to get them because these things always sell out so you don't need to worry they just come

00:52:24   to you directly in the post. I think that this is a great deal, I mean they've used

00:52:28   them for so long and the editions that they make are always really beautiful, they're

00:52:31   always limited and they've always got new and exciting things about them. You can find

00:52:35   out more about the workshop edition and Field Notes at large by going to www.fieldnotesbrand.com/workshop

00:52:41   and if you buy yourself a year long colour subscription starting with the workshop companion

00:52:45   and use the code 'relay' at checkout you'll get 3 carpenter pencils and a 3 pack of pitch

00:52:49   black memo books for free which is the nice standard black edition that they do.

00:52:53   Even though you should be buying the subscription you can also buy packs of

00:52:57   the workshop edition separately too but you want to hurry because when these

00:53:00   things sell out they're gone forever they don't remake them when they're gone

00:53:03   they're gone. So that's Field Notes. I'm not writing it down to remember it later

00:53:06   I'm writing it down to remember it now. So you suggested on your lovely website

00:53:14   Six Colors to check out the font presentation, like the session that they

00:53:20   did. And I watched it today and I was quite interested, I thought it was quite

00:53:23   an interesting presentation. So this is about San Francisco because I know there

00:53:28   was a lot of... because Apple didn't really mention it on stage, it was on one of

00:53:33   the big word clouds, but they didn't really mention that both iOS and Mac OS

00:53:38   I'm just gonna go with it now, have new system fonts which is a brand of San

00:53:45   Francisco. So the way that it's done now is San Francisco, the font, has two

00:53:51   different styles. I think it's called SF and SF Compact. And Compact is on the

00:53:57   watch and SF is on iOS and OS X. And they have ever so slightly differing

00:54:05   characteristics that make them better for the screens that they're on. Why did

00:54:10   you find this so interesting? Well, I mean, I'm not a font nerd at the level of a

00:54:19   John Gruber, not even close, but what I... years in publishing especially have

00:54:27   taught me some things about type and the difference between display type and

00:54:33   and regular type, which, and as I was watching the presentation,

00:54:38   and, you know, how much of that was necessary for developers, I don't know.

00:54:43   I felt like it was a little bit of an evangelism session where it's really like,

00:54:46   "No, seriously, don't scale up your small type for large spaces,

00:54:49   because it looks really bad. Use the right size for the right place."

00:54:53   It was a little bit of a just trying to get developers to think about type as important and complicated

00:54:59   and that they should sort of trust Apple to do the right thing at the right sizes

00:55:04   rather than just sort of figure it'll all be fine if they just take a 15-point

00:55:08   set of type and make it 50 points which was one of his examples it's like this

00:55:12   looks really bad don't do that. I felt like he was crying inside the presenter every

00:55:16   time he did something like that. The guy was Italian which I saw Federico

00:55:21   tweeting about how much he loved the presentation because it was done by an

00:55:25   Italian guy whose name I don't have to hand. He knows the guy too, which is funny.

00:55:31   Antonio Cavadoni. He's on Twitter even.

00:55:37   But it's, yeah, so I think some of it is that, which is like, look developers, we've

00:55:43   got a whole team that's tried to do the right thing here, so what you need

00:55:47   to do is say, like say the size you want and we'll give it to you and it'll look

00:55:51   good, so trust us. There was that aspect of it. But it's also a good little primer on

00:55:57   how, or as it's properly pronounced, "primer," on how you, on fonts and decisions font designers

00:56:06   make. And there's some really nice things where he's got the two different outlines

00:56:10   of two different versions of the font, and you can see, like, on this we changed the

00:56:15   way this is so that things were a little more elongated, so that it's more readable at small

00:56:21   sizes because at small sizes everything kind of like compresses together and so we make

00:56:26   these things more distorted. But if you if you showed them at large sizes they would

00:56:29   look ridiculous. He talked about overshooting so that you make a circle actually taller

00:56:34   than a square so that they if placed next to each other they look the same size. If

00:56:39   you make the circle exactly the same size as the square it looks smaller and that's

00:56:42   an optical illusion, he talks about how so much of vision is based on optical illusions,

00:56:48   and so you have to kind of make things different in order to make things see the same, and

00:56:54   I really like that. So it's like, if you've ever wondered about typography and fonts and

00:57:00   how all that stuff works, I think it actually works, that presentation works as a little

00:57:05   bit of an intro to those kind of concepts, and you know, you could go way deeper, obviously,

00:57:11   But I like that and also the sign that Apple takes this stuff seriously enough that when

00:57:16   they decided they're going to make their own font, they aren't kidding around.

00:57:20   And they actually, you know, it's downloadable for developers under a license that says you

00:57:24   can only use it in UI, which I think is also interesting that this is not, you know, Apple

00:57:29   doesn't want to see everybody's website set in San Francisco.

00:57:32   That's not the point of it.

00:57:34   But they went to the trouble of building this font specifically for their devices.

00:57:39   So you know, it's nice to see that level of care taken to it, that somebody cares enough

00:57:43   about typography to work on this.

00:57:47   And so his presentation was really good.

00:57:49   So I think people should check it out if they're at all interested in typography, even though

00:57:53   the purpose that I think it served at WWDC is very much to sort of lecture developers

00:57:57   to not screw up their fonts by assuming that just text is text.

00:58:03   I think that was really what he was trying to do, is like, if you walk away anything

00:58:07   Just understand display fonts are not regular fonts, that you know we do

00:58:11   different things at different sizes, that fonts have features that you know like

00:58:16   making fractions we have a feature for that right? That to just think of

00:58:22   fonts as something more than just like an unintelligent thing that they just

00:58:26   kind of do whatever and it'll be fine and it's served that purpose too but it's

00:58:30   also very educational.

00:58:33   Yeah it's such an interesting one. I mean because it wasn't so heavy as I imagine a lot of the

00:58:40   sessions are because Antonio was doing a great job of actually describing what fonts and typography

00:58:50   are about and why it's important. And you could see from this guy that it was like a plea, right?

00:58:57   He was like, "Please, please just trust me and do what I've been working on for years

00:59:03   and years and take advantage of this thing that we've created for you."

00:59:07   And you can see it in the way that they show these minor little details about the way it

00:59:11   changes at certain points and weights and how they look at tracking and kerning and

00:59:16   all that stuff, things that I've learned about today through watching this presentation.

00:59:21   And it was just one of those things where it was like, I know that a lot of other companies

00:59:24   have done this like you know Google made a font and they've done stuff like that

00:59:28   as well but you see them on stage and they're like showing the way that

00:59:32   they've put this thought into it it's like look how these three letters are

00:59:34   the same in the way that they're presented and how much we've had to

00:59:37   think about changing them because of that and it's all we have to have a

00:59:40   different six in some instances in case it's read upside down so and it's like

00:59:44   you know you gotta love that kind of that kind of sweating the details and

00:59:48   because they didn't need to do this they could have continued to use Helvetica

00:59:51   forever but instead they used San Francisco instead and it's nice and I like that they

00:59:56   got I like that they gave that guy the time on stage to explain why it's important rather

01:00:00   than just have somebody say no you must do this now and you must use this API and shut

01:00:05   up about it. I like that they gave him his time to discuss his craft.

01:00:09   That's the nice thing about WWDC is there are all these slots and I'm sure there are

01:00:13   more topics than there are slots but you can use slots for interesting things that you

01:00:18   might not otherwise do. It's also not a long presentation it's not an hour it's a half

01:00:21   30 minutes or something. Yeah. Yeah, and it's a good one. I liked it a lot. So people should

01:00:26   definitely check it out and people should, if you're interested in this stuff, I mean

01:00:29   the beauty of the WWDC videos is you don't have to be a paid developer to watch them.

01:00:33   And you can do what, back in the old days when I would go to WWDC for the full week

01:00:40   and it wasn't totally packed and sold out and insane like it is now, you know, you'd

01:00:45   go to a lot of sessions kind of on a whim to see what was new and they would give you

01:00:48   an overview for about 10 minutes and then they would bring out the code samples and

01:00:51   you would leave and go to another session and pop in there and see if you can glean

01:00:54   something more there. The nice thing about these videos is you can do that. You can fast

01:00:57   forward or just go to a different session once you reach a point where you're like,

01:01:00   "Whoa, now I don't understand what's going on. This is all code." And so even if you're

01:01:05   not a developer, I would say, and you're curious about how this stuff works, those videos can

01:01:09   be great and you can surf around, you know. You can pop in and out of them as you need

01:01:13   to, which I think is really good. I've been enjoying watching them and I'm glad Apple

01:01:17   makes them available. I've mentioned a couple of times today that E3 is going

01:01:24   on and just before we recorded this episode, Microsoft held their press

01:01:28   conference and it prompted you to make a purchase. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's funny. It

01:01:34   was on a whim. Fortunately my children don't listen to this podcast so

01:01:38   they won't hear this but my daughter's graduating from middle school and my son

01:01:44   is graduating from elementary school and again, you know, people make a big deal

01:01:46   about, "Oh, do you celebrate a graduation every year?" And you know, my son's been at

01:01:51   the same school for six years and he's leaving it and there's a little ceremony and it's

01:01:55   nice. And my daughter's been in the middle school for three years, she's going to high

01:01:58   school and there's a little ceremony and it's nice. They're both the same day, my mom's

01:02:01   coming in, my wife's parents are coming in, and we're going to buy them some presents.

01:02:05   So my kids both love video games and I'm watching the coverage of E3 and the Microsoft thing

01:02:12   and they announced that Xbox One, which previously has been incompatible with all the Xbox 360

01:02:18   games, will gradually become compatible with many Xbox 360 games. They're going to--it's

01:02:26   kind of unclear, it sounds like they may be doing some recompiling and that you basically

01:02:29   put in the disc and it downloads a special Xbox One version of it and they verify that

01:02:35   you, you know, that you have the disc and then it plays. It seems a little bit weird,

01:02:39   But I had been on the fence about buying an Xbox One.

01:02:42   I think my kids would really like to have another current generation console, but we

01:02:46   also have enough Xbox 360 games that I didn't want to keep the Xbox 360 around and hooked

01:02:52   up and, you know, plugged in just for those games.

01:02:55   And so I'm going to take a little bit of a flyer on this and hope that they end up adding

01:03:00   compatibility for the games that my kids like eventually over the next six months.

01:03:06   But I decided to pull the trigger on it because I could get it here in two days with Amazon

01:03:09   Prime and put it in, you know, gift wrap and give that to them as a little present on their

01:03:15   graduation day.

01:03:18   So you know, the hype worked, Microsoft.

01:03:20   Fine, you win.

01:03:22   But seriously, I think these console makers don't understand how important it is for people

01:03:27   with an investment in old, their previous platform, how much easier it is to buy the

01:03:33   new platform knowing that your games come along.

01:03:35   It's like, I have a Wii U. Number one reason we have a Wii U is it plays all the Wii games.

01:03:41   And so I was able to just pull out the Wii and put in the Wii U and just swap them and

01:03:46   move on with my life, right?

01:03:48   Rather than collecting yet another box.

01:03:50   And the 360 and the PlayStation 4, you can't do that.

01:03:52   You got to keep your old console around.

01:03:55   That is not good.

01:03:57   So I understand that there's a lot of issues in terms of giving the games to play, and

01:04:02   do you have to build in special hardware, and does that increase the cost?

01:04:05   I understand all that, but for a lot of regular people, they're not really viewing consoles

01:04:10   as an additive thing, it's much more of a replacement thing.

01:04:14   And if it, you know, the new Xbox, you also have to get rid of all your old Xbox games

01:04:19   or find room for an extra Xbox.

01:04:23   That made that product a lot less appealing.

01:04:25   So to address it, to play the other side, the reason that it didn't work is because

01:04:32   Microsoft and PlayStation, well Sony with PlayStation, they both changed console

01:04:37   architecture in this revision which isn't always the case. So Nintendo did

01:04:42   not do that. They stuck to the same architecture which means the games will

01:04:46   play. Fundamentally 360 games do not run on the Xbox One. They just can't. They could

01:04:52   have put the disk in but it's not going to work. And so what Microsoft appeared to be

01:04:55   doing is recompiling games for the Xbox One because it won't be all games, it's

01:05:03   not gonna be until the holiday season and they've said there'll be a hundred

01:05:07   supported by the holiday season. And what they said so far is that

01:05:12   developers just need to opt in. So Microsoft appear to be doing the work on

01:05:16   it. Now the reason that Microsoft are doing this is because they took a hit

01:05:21   for it initially because they said they were gonna do it and they ripped it out

01:05:25   because it was all that there was this big fracas with the basically the Xbox

01:05:30   which had to be constantly connected to the internet Microsoft did a lot of

01:05:33   crazy things with the Xbox one that they had to walk back and one of them that

01:05:37   they they walked back was backwards compatibility because they kind of had

01:05:42   to because of the way they needed to change the out the way that their system

01:05:45   worked they would no pressure from Sony because Sony wasn't offering backward

01:05:49   compatibility either exactly now what's happened what's transpired is Sony are

01:05:53   just walking around and actually they are running circles around Microsoft

01:05:59   sales-wise. So something that Microsoft are doing now is trying to give the

01:06:05   bridge for people like yourself to upgrade to the Xbox One. When you know

01:06:10   there are statistics and people will tell you that the actuality is most

01:06:15   people don't use the backward compatibility feature after a short

01:06:21   space of time because the games get replaced. But it is something that even mentally for

01:06:26   some people, whether you do or don't, and it's not important really whether you do or

01:06:30   don't, it's the way that mentally, as you have just done, it makes you feel like you're

01:06:34   making a better purchase, a more informed purchase because you're able to use the investment

01:06:38   that you've put in over the last five years or whatever. So that's why they tried to do

01:06:42   it. So, you know, basically...

01:06:43   Well, how many Wii games do we play now on the Wii U?

01:06:46   Probably not many.

01:06:47   So I find my kids, there is, there are a handful of Wii games that still get played on the

01:06:52   Wii U.

01:06:53   It's only a handful.

01:06:54   Most of them are not being played anymore, and I should probably give those to Merlin,

01:06:58   actually, because they have a Wii, and I've given some games to Merlin for his daughter

01:07:02   to play.

01:07:04   But mostly not.

01:07:07   It's like having a computer that's upgradeable.

01:07:09   Sometimes it's just a mental block.

01:07:11   But the fact is, there are Xbox 360 games that my son loves, and I'm hoping anyway that

01:07:19   they will be brought over and compatible so that I can disconnect the 360 entirely at

01:07:26   some point.

01:07:27   That would be really nice, because again, it's a transition thing.

01:07:32   It's about, can we do the effort to get people on the new platform and they gradually will

01:07:36   let go of the old platform.

01:07:38   Yeah, that's exactly it. I mean, and that's why they do it and why they should probably

01:07:42   they should try all they can. And yeah, this is a huge technological achievement that Microsoft

01:07:47   have managed to do. Because like the way it works is you put the disk in, it authenticates

01:07:52   and then you download the game, which means Microsoft have done an incredible amount of

01:07:56   work to get these games to work on the system. And so it is, you know, Federico was saying

01:08:02   to me earlier today, he just caught up with the presentation. This is

01:08:07   Microsoft trying to win back the gamers that they upset a year ago and that's

01:08:11   definitely the case. On that note, if you're interested in this at all, we're

01:08:16   actually, me and Federico have a game podcast on this network called

01:08:20   Virtual and we're doing two episodes this week to cover all the E3 news. We're

01:08:25   doing one tomorrow, Tuesday, and then one on Friday to try and cover everything

01:08:30   from Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, and the rest. So you should check those out if

01:08:34   you're interested in that kind of thing. We're doing some good coverage this week.

01:08:38   Should we do some Ask Upgrade? Ask Upgrade is brought to you by our friends

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01:11:18   mail route for sponsoring #AskUpgrade. And thanks Myke for your faraway mail bagging.

01:11:24   My neighbors are gonna think I'm crazy. So I just went to the other side of the room

01:11:28   and shared with mail bagging at you. Crazier? Crazier. Our first Ask Upgrade this week comes

01:11:35   from Guy. Guy asks, "Is there anything that will make you both consider jailbreaking your

01:11:40   iOS devices?" Have you ever done-- have you ever jailbroken, Jason? So jailbreaking used

01:11:46   to be really important because there were features that you could enable that just simply

01:11:51   weren't there. So we I did jailbreaking to try out apps before there were apps in the

01:11:55   App Store. I did jailbreaking to enable video out from the dock connector at one point so

01:12:00   that we could do presentations on stage at Macworld Expo. You used to not be able to

01:12:05   do that via a wire or you know via any means.

01:12:09   - That was until like a year ago. That was like super recent.

01:12:11   - Yeah well no it was not too long not too long ago you could you could do a you could

01:12:15   do a direct video out. The video adapters are sold out. I don't know, that was like

01:12:18   four years ago, five years ago. But for the first two or three years you couldn't do that.

01:12:22   And so we had several jailbroken iPads at Macworld Expo just because that was the only

01:12:28   way that we could do a demo on a screen of things that were on an iPad. I got to say

01:12:33   though, the stuff that jailbreaking is used for today, you know, tweaky settings and piracy

01:12:39   basically, and while I appreciate people who want to jailbreak their iOS devices, I don't

01:12:45   think there's anything that would make me consider. Given all of the other issues that

01:12:49   are going around jailbreaking, I feel like it's time as something that appeals to—it

01:12:55   never appealed to a broad audience, but that audience that it did appeal to just keeps

01:12:59   getting narrower and narrower. So no, I don't think there's anything that would make me

01:13:02   consider at this point.

01:13:03   I agree completely. I don't have anything that I need.

01:13:07   I mean, short of a crackdown where Apple says, you know, all podcast apps must be removed

01:13:12   from the store and, you know, but that's not gonna happen. You know, Apple's not gonna

01:13:17   do that. So, you know, I'm fine with it. I don't think there's... It's not to say that

01:13:21   there aren't some features that are nice that you can probably enable with jailbreaking.

01:13:24   I'm just saying I don't think there's anything that would counterbalance the difficulty of

01:13:29   going through it and difficulty of having upgrades and having things be non-standard

01:13:33   and broken and I don't want to go through that because I did go through that for a couple

01:13:37   of years and it was kind of awful but necessary and I don't see anything that would make that

01:13:43   make it worth it this time.

01:13:46   Richard would like to know, Richard has a question for you Jason, "Will I be able to

01:13:50   play Apple Music on the watch without my phone? That would be a huge advantage over other

01:13:54   services like Spotify. I mean, in theory, yeah, right? You'll be able to download it

01:13:59   to the device even if it's maybe to play off locally.

01:14:02   - WatchOS 2. - Yeah.

01:14:03   - WatchOS 2, it will be up to the app developers. So would Apple make it so that you could save

01:14:08   off Apple Music files and copy them on a playlist like you can now with iTunes files? They could

01:14:16   absolutely do that, and maybe they will do that. Spotify could do that too, though. That's

01:14:21   the thing, is that it would be a huge advantage over Spotify, but based on how the watch kit

01:14:28   stuff in watchOS 2 works, Spotify should be able to do it too.

01:14:33   Anybody should be able to save some files locally on the watch and then play them back

01:14:37   when you're separate from the iPhone.

01:14:40   So it's a question of who will do that, because it's complicated, right?

01:14:43   You got to download the files, you got to have them be secure based on whatever your

01:14:46   music license is, and then you have to transfer them to the other device.

01:14:49   But I think offline viewing of streaming content or using streaming content is such a great

01:14:58   feature. I really love it in Marvel Unlimited that I can save off 12 issues of comic books

01:15:03   and read them, and it makes me very sad that I can't watch Netflix series on an airplane

01:15:07   because they don't allow offline viewing. So I hope, you know, the music services do

01:15:13   this on apps today, so I hope that they will do that on the watch at some point. But I

01:15:18   don't think it's necessarily going to be an Apple advantage because looking at

01:15:21   the way they describe the API Spotify should be able to build a watch app that

01:15:24   does it too. Might be an advantage for a couple of months though right? Could be

01:15:28   could I mean yeah they could they could do a watch you know watch OS one point.

01:15:32   Because I'm pretty sure on the Apple music site it says it's supported in

01:15:37   Apple watch after a software upgrade. Yeah. I'm pretty sure it says that. That could be they could

01:15:44   they could drop an Apple Watch software update that's got it as a native app and no other,

01:15:50   you know, watch apps will have that until the fall and that's your platform advantage.

01:15:53   So it's possible.

01:15:54   >> So there you go. So let's wait and see, Richard. Pete has asked, "With the Notes app

01:16:02   functionality in iOS 9 being only for iOS devices, what checklist to do apps do you

01:16:08   use on the Apple Watch?"

01:16:09   Well, first off, I think it's also on the Mac, but I think Pete's question is about

01:16:15   Apple Watch.

01:16:16   Yeah.

01:16:17   There's no Notes, so far as we know, no new Notes app for the Apple Watch that lets you

01:16:22   check things off, although wouldn't that be nice?

01:16:24   I'm not currently doing any checklists or to-do stuff on Apple Watch.

01:16:28   I'm not.

01:16:29   I feel like, for me, that's almost a bridge too far, and if I'm in a checking off mode,

01:16:35   I can just pull out my phone and it's not a problem.

01:16:38   know, I could see that that I might want to try something out, but I haven't, I

01:16:41   haven't done that yet. What about you? So I do use OmniFocus. I have the OmniFocus

01:16:46   app, and sometimes I do check off things in OmniFocus as they pop up. But I have, I

01:16:52   find doing stuff like grocery shopping or whatever, I use Clear, and I have to

01:16:56   have it on my wrist as I'm walking around the supermarket, and I just check off

01:17:00   things in clear. So that works pretty well. You're so fancy. I know, I know. This comes from Matt.

01:17:09   "Will Americans be able to use Apple Pay in the UK?" I believe the answer to that is

01:17:14   yes, they will be. In fact, somebody replied to Matt on Twitter and said that

01:17:18   Americans can already use Apple Pay in the UK. Yeah, exactly. Because there are those

01:17:22   contactless terminals. It's the banks that need it, it's not the stores so much

01:17:26   as long as the terminals are there. And this actually reminds me, I forgot a

01:17:29   piece of follow-up from earlier. I just completely skipped over this in a

01:17:33   document. We were talking about Barclays Bank, the bank in the UK that I

01:17:38   would like to use that isn't supporting Apple Pay. I did a bit of digging on

01:17:42   this. Basically it's kind of as I expected. Barclays have their own

01:17:46   service called Pingit, which is a payment service that they tried to implement in

01:17:50   the UK. They did such a good job at it, it was so revolutionary, that the UK

01:17:56   payments council said that's really good we're gonna make all banks use this now

01:18:00   and basically ping it as a system where you can register your phone number with

01:18:04   your bank and it's now called Payem in the UK now it's like the standardized

01:18:11   system so for example let's say you were in the UK Jason you could say to your

01:18:15   bank this is my phone number I could say to my bank this is my phone number and

01:18:19   we could send payments to each other via our phone numbers in banking apps very

01:18:24   Basically Barclays are trying to take Pingit to the next level and they're

01:18:29   trying to make it so you can pay businesses and charities and stuff with

01:18:33   Pingit. So basically what it seems like is that Barclays are resisting because

01:18:40   they want their own system. Reminds me of that currency thing. It's exactly like

01:18:45   that and I had a feeling this was going to be the case when you mentioned

01:18:48   that it's strange that Barclays would not be on the list because they've

01:18:51   seem to be more of a tech-forward bank, but isn't that always the way? The tech-forward

01:18:56   organization is building their own thing, and then this thing comes along that everybody

01:19:00   can adopt, and they immediately sort of sniff at it and go, "Nah, we built our own thing."

01:19:06   But the problem with that is that by trying to keep their own thing in the spotlight,

01:19:11   they risk being seen as a technology laggard instead, because they're not supporting the

01:19:17   thing that everybody else is supporting. It feels very much like currency where

01:19:21   Walmart and a bunch of other stores got together and said we're building a new

01:19:25   awesome payment system and then Apple Pay came out and they said nope we're

01:19:29   gonna still do our thing and it's just not gonna happen because there's a

01:19:33   better system. So they like they Barclays tweeted about it right from the

01:19:38   official account that they have and basically saying we can assure you

01:19:44   you have been talking with Apple of how our customers could use Apple Pay in

01:19:47   addition to our existing mobile payment services and these talks remain

01:19:53   constructive. So I wonder if Apple say you can't do anything else you want to

01:19:58   use this you can't do it and then you know you don't know what side it's

01:20:01   coming from but there is a side that is making them say no we won't do this.

01:20:07   I also made a dumb joke last week about Apple Pay in the UK where I likened it to

01:20:11   anarchy in the UK by the Sex Pistols, which I'm still a little proud of, but the next

01:20:17   day they announced a Sex Pistols credit card.

01:20:19   What?

01:20:20   Which, yes, oh yes, on Virgin Bank or Virgin Card or whatever in the UK there is a Sex

01:20:28   Pistols, set of Sex Pistols themed credit cards, so I got to use the Apple Pay in the

01:20:33   UK joke for a second day.

01:20:34   That was nice.

01:20:35   I don't even understand.

01:20:37   Because they've totally sold out now.

01:20:38   Why would these two things go together in any way?

01:20:42   Well punk rock and financial services really are naturals, aren't they?

01:20:46   What a shame.

01:20:48   Gosh.

01:20:49   Yeah.

01:20:50   Isn't it crazy to see like how this...

01:20:51   Virgin money.

01:20:53   This anarchic band just completely just sold out.

01:20:59   I think you mean anarchic...

01:21:02   Anarchic?

01:21:03   I think you mean anarchic band.

01:21:05   They live at the South Pole.

01:21:06   No, I think you mean anarchic brand.

01:21:11   That's where we are.

01:21:12   They're just a brand like all the others.

01:21:15   Our last question this week comes from Nathan.

01:21:17   Do you think the improvements to Siri and Spotlight are the groundwork for an Apple

01:21:21   search engine?

01:21:22   I love this question.

01:21:24   I love this question.

01:21:25   And the answer is yes, sort of.

01:21:29   I think Apple does not want to make a search engine as we think of it with Google.

01:21:33   Like Apple.com, search or whatever.

01:21:35   - Yeah, I mean, I'm interested in what you think about this.

01:21:38   I was thinking about it when I was even sitting

01:21:40   in the keynote, which is, I feel like this is,

01:21:43   this is the information resource that requires,

01:21:46   that doesn't require a search engine,

01:21:47   but it is a search engine.

01:21:48   It is between the proactive stuff

01:21:51   and what you're gonna see on the search screen in iOS

01:21:54   and the natural language search that's happening

01:21:56   in El Capitan, I feel like this is what Apple's pushing

01:22:01   is they've got information resources

01:22:03   and search technologies all happening

01:22:05   in all these different places and they're bringing them together, they're making them

01:22:07   available in all sorts of different locations, and you never have to hit a search engine,

01:22:13   per se. You know, you search on your iOS device or in Spotlight if you want to, but it's not

01:22:21   quite what we think of as a traditional search engine, but it is definitely a competitor

01:22:26   to Google and all the other search engines. It's different, but it is like that. And I

01:22:31   And I think this is one of Google's fears, and people have talked about this for years

01:22:35   now that the rise of mobile and apps, you know, Google risks losing not just information

01:22:41   from users who might go to other places, but risks losing one of their greatest products,

01:22:47   maybe their greatest product, which is the search box.

01:22:51   Because if...and it won't go to a competitor, it's not going to go to Bing, it's going to

01:22:55   go to apps that have their own search of different resources.

01:23:00   And that's what Apple's trying to do here is build something that means you never go

01:23:03   to Google because you don't need to because you can use Apple's system to intercept you.

01:23:08   And you may never even feel like you're using a search engine per se.

01:23:11   You're just using your device to find things.

01:23:14   So I love this question because I think it lets me say yes and no.

01:23:20   It's not like we think of a search engine, but yeah, that's pretty much what they're

01:23:24   trying to do is mean that you never have to go to a search engine.

01:23:27   Yeah, I think it's the same sort of idea. There isn't going to be a web-based search

01:23:31   that anybody can use. It's just the places that you would normally perform searches,

01:23:37   we will provide you with information.

01:23:39   Right. Now, Google is really good at this too, right? Google Now is good at this. And

01:23:44   Google has a head start here, not only because they're good at search, but because they've

01:23:47   been trying to build this into their mobile products for a while now. So there's a...

01:23:52   As Joe Steele just said in the chat room, the problem is the perceived quality of the

01:23:55   like Maps versus Google Maps and I would add to that.

01:23:57   Can Apple do this well?

01:23:58   I'm not saying they can.

01:23:59   I'm saying that they're trying to.

01:24:01   And I hope they, you know, for their sake

01:24:03   that they execute well, because as a user,

01:24:05   I would really not like to have this like,

01:24:07   oh, well, you know, there's a search feature in iOS,

01:24:09   but I can't really use that.

01:24:11   I have to launch an app because Google stuff

01:24:12   is so much better than Apple's.

01:24:14   You know, I would like the integrated stuff

01:24:17   in the system to be good,

01:24:18   but this is tough stuff for Apple.

01:24:21   This is new stuff for Apple,

01:24:22   but that's what they need to do.

01:24:24   They absolutely do need to do it and have it be integrated.

01:24:27   The proactive stuff is adding another level.

01:24:29   The natural language and spotlight is adding another level.

01:24:32   But this is what they're, and you know,

01:24:34   whether we call this Siri or not,

01:24:36   these are all of those same technologies.

01:24:38   It's a whole bunch of different data sources

01:24:40   being organized together.

01:24:41   And, you know, you should be able to ask it questions.

01:24:45   It should also know what, and, you know,

01:24:48   intuit what you're going to need and provide it for you.

01:24:50   That's all part of the dream here.

01:24:53   So the intelligent assistant instead of,

01:24:55   we should be able to think of a search engine

01:24:58   as like a last resort where it's like, wow,

01:25:00   nobody has suggested anything for me.

01:25:02   I guess I have to go to the search engine.

01:25:05   - Yep.

01:25:06   I think it's,

01:25:07   I think both of these companies, Google and Apple,

01:25:11   what they're actually trying to do is

01:25:13   provide you with the search results

01:25:15   before you make the search.

01:25:16   I think that's where they're going.

01:25:18   That's what they want you,

01:25:19   they want it to be in the future.

01:25:21   And that's what this stuff is moving towards.

01:25:24   - Yeah.

01:25:25   - So that's it, that's our scope grade over.

01:25:27   We did wanna just mention in a couple of weeks time,

01:25:29   we'll be doing our next Myke at the movies.

01:25:32   Maybe next week, I think it's next week, right?

01:25:35   I do believe it's-- - What's the date, Myke?

01:25:36   - The 22nd. - The 22nd?

01:25:37   - Yep.

01:25:39   - All right, so if you want to watch the movie

01:25:41   along with Myke, go to his house, knock on his door.

01:25:45   - I'll welcome you in.

01:25:46   I'm watching it 24 hours a day for the next week.

01:25:48   - So the movie we're gonna stick with the 80s,

01:25:51   that seems to have been our theme. So if you would like to watch a movie

01:25:54   that Myke is also going to watch for the first time,

01:25:57   get out your, I don't even know what, get out your DVD players, get out your

01:26:01   Netflix streams, wherever it's available to you,

01:26:03   and seek out Cameron Crowe's 1989 film starring John Cusack,

01:26:10   Say Anything. Very interesting 80s film

01:26:16   uh i with a with a super famous scene toward the end um looking at the artwork on imdb this

01:26:25   is the movie that has a meme that i don't understand which is the boombox thing yep so

01:26:31   i've seen this i know this is a thing but i don't know what it's about you don't know what it means

01:26:36   now now try not to watch the whole movie saying oh there's a boombox i wonder if he'll raise that

01:26:41   over his head soon well i can assume what i assume is and you can just you just you have to play

01:26:46   play Stoneface there. I assume he's playing a love song through that boom box to try and

01:26:50   get the girl. Interesting theory, Myke. Interesting theory. We will check on your theory next

01:26:54   week when we do Myke at the movies. So that's it for this week's episode of Upgrade.

01:26:59   If you'd like to catch our show notes you should head on over to Relay.fm/upgrade/41.

01:27:02   If you'd like to find Jason online he writes at SixColors.com and you can also find him

01:27:09   on Twitter he's @JSNELL and I am @imike. I M Y K E. This show is a part of Relay FM

01:27:16   You can find more of our shows online at relay.fm. Thanks again to our sponsors this week, too

01:27:21   Field Notes, MailRoute and Lynda.com for helping us out

01:27:25   But most importantly thank you for taking the time out of your busy day to listen to our little program

01:27:31   And we'll be back next time until then say goodbye, Mr. Snell

01:27:34   Kickboxing it's the sport of the future

01:27:37   You will

01:27:42   [ Music ]