33: Personal Electronic Notebooks


00:00:00   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 33.

00:00:15   Upgrade this week is brought to you by three lovely sponsors, Igloo, an internet you'll

00:00:19   actually like, MailRoute, a secure, hosted email service for protection from viruses

00:00:24   and spam, and GoToMeeting, the best tool to meet from anywhere without travel expenses

00:00:29   or hassle of traffic. I'm Jason I'm not Myke. What? Oh my god. What happened to

00:00:35   your accent? Myke, Myke you've been in America too long. Four days you've gotten

00:00:38   you've gotten a totally different accent. Yeah so I'm Steven. Hi Jason. Hi. So Myke

00:00:45   is in, Myke is in America he's not with me but he's also not with you. Yeah that

00:00:50   makes me sad. This is very it's a very confusing time in the relay universe. I

00:00:55   don't know much about comic books but I think at some point comic books there's

00:00:58   multiple universes and that's kind of how relay feels like the last two weeks

00:01:01   yeah yeah this is we were what is it the the flophouse and a bunch of other shows

00:01:10   that are on that maximum fun network they were talking about how they want to

00:01:13   do a they want to do a fun drive thing that is the crossover week where they

00:01:19   switch all the hosts around and I figure we just did that by accident on relay

00:01:23   All the hosts are on different shows and because Myke was traveling

00:01:26   In in he had his vacation and he went to Ireland and now he's in Atlanta

00:01:31   And so we've had guest hosts and you've been popping up everywhere you were on with Casey now

00:01:35   You're on with me and I know people are feeling like unsettled out there. I think

00:01:40   Starting next week. Everything will be back to normal. I think so. This is the I think actually today

00:01:45   I think today's the last day cuz Myke flies home

00:01:47   Those listeners of clockwise will find that I'm not gonna be on clockwise this week

00:01:52   But after that, Dan and I will be back together too.

00:01:54   So soon.

00:01:55   So soon.

00:01:56   I know.

00:01:57   I know.

00:01:58   I have John Siracusa's yard crew outside my house.

00:02:00   Mm-hmm.

00:02:01   Outside my neighbor's house.

00:02:02   Like a lawnmower, like a blower.

00:02:04   Yeah, he's on a leaf blower right now.

00:02:06   That is classic hypercritical, by the way.

00:02:09   That is a old-school hypercritical, the John Siracusa complaining about the lawn guy.

00:02:14   It is.

00:02:15   So I have studio space in town that I use.

00:02:16   I actually share it with my brother.

00:02:18   And I was going to go there today to record,

00:02:21   but I drove like eight hours yesterday from Atlanta,

00:02:24   and I was like, well, I'm going to sleep late,

00:02:26   I'll just wake up, my family, they're all out today.

00:02:29   I was like, I'll record at home.

00:02:30   What could go on in my neighborhood?

00:02:31   I'm never home at 10 o'clock on a Monday, right?

00:02:33   I'm at work.

00:02:34   What could happen in my neighborhood

00:02:36   at 10 o'clock on a Monday?

00:02:37   And apparently, all of the yard work.

00:02:39   - The yard guy.

00:02:40   - The yard guy's here.

00:02:41   What can we do?

00:02:42   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:02:43   I see those people when I'm walking my kids to school,

00:02:46   when I'm walking my son to school in the morning.

00:02:48   I see the yard guys out because they get out early and do that.

00:02:51   That's funny for me because we don't have a yard guy.

00:02:54   I'm the yard guy.

00:02:55   Yeah, same with me.

00:02:56   I'm the only guy on the street who's mowing his own grass still.

00:02:59   I should change that.

00:03:01   Yeah.

00:03:02   Well, it's not going to be a problem for me because all my grass is going to die because

00:03:06   we're not going to water anymore.

00:03:07   Oh, yeah.

00:03:08   You all don't have water anymore in California.

00:03:09   That's right.

00:03:10   So why?

00:03:11   Who needs?

00:03:12   That seems bad.

00:03:13   I could mail you a jar of Mississippi River water once a week.

00:03:15   Did you see that William Shatner wants to do a Kickstarter for like a billion dollars?

00:03:18   I think he doesn't know how Kickstarter works. To build a pipeline, a water pipeline to California.

00:03:24   Also, on one level I think it's like that's kind of brilliant, right? Because there are

00:03:27   other places where there's lots of water, but not here. But for that I think they could

00:03:30   just build like desal plants. But does that actually fix the problem? Like,

00:03:34   where's the water coming from? Will those people be thirsty? Because you've taken all

00:03:37   their water? Well, I mean, that's, look at the Colorado

00:03:38   River. There isn't anything left of it because we drained it all. It's like you stick the

00:03:43   straw in it, and then you just keep sucking until it's dry.

00:03:45   Is that how they do it? It's a giant bindi straw into California. Interesting. You basically

00:03:51   live in a foreign country to me. It's very strange.

00:03:53   It is. Well, we joke about this because people don't know this. This is the first segment.

00:03:58   This is before follow-up. This is random talk. In the relay Slack chat, I've taken upon myself

00:04:05   to educate Casey about California facts because it turns out Casey knows nothing about California,

00:04:10   literally nothing. I superimposed a map of California on a map of the East Coast once

00:04:15   and said, "Casey, this is how big California is." And he was like, "Wow, that's really

00:04:18   big!" I'm like, "Yes, it's really big." And he was like, "Where is Yosemite?" Because

00:04:23   I'm going to Yosemite today. In relation to the Bay Area, because I don't know, and I

00:04:26   did a little, I used napkin, I think, and I drew little circles and arrows. I'm like,

00:04:31   "This is LA, this is San Francisco, this is where the cows are in between, and over here

00:04:36   is where Yosemite is, which is where I'm from, up in the, where the trees are.

00:04:40   Oh, so your sidebar is translucent already.

00:04:43   Yeah, I was, it was born translucent.

00:04:46   Wow.

00:04:47   You should change that setting so your computer looks like a Mac again.

00:04:50   I'm not angry about Yosemite.

00:04:51   No.

00:04:52   We should do some follow-up/out.

00:04:56   We should.

00:04:57   Follow-up/out.

00:04:58   We should.

00:04:59   We don't have sound effects on this show.

00:05:01   That was a...

00:05:02   Yeah, I don't either anymore.

00:05:03   That was, yeah, I know.

00:05:04   was a particularly prompt related thing. I kind of missed the sound effects, but Myke

00:05:08   took them away. Well, he says follow up now and I think follow up. But yeah, he can't

00:05:16   not do that. Actually, the follow out is connected. Oh, I wanted to mention episode 35 of connected,

00:05:24   which I was on. And so people who like to listen to me talk and to you talk. Yes, but

00:05:31   not to Federico because he said very little in that episode because it was about photos

00:05:35   for Mac that I talked about, and the Mac does not interest Federico. The Mac is a device

00:05:39   used to talk on Skype.

00:05:41   - Yes.

00:05:42   - And nothing else. But they should check that out if they want to hear me talk about

00:05:47   photos a lot. There are a couple things that made me very sad. There are a couple things

00:05:50   in there that I said that were wrong. I said that there was no brush tool at all, and there

00:05:53   is a little, you know, the spot healing kind of thing is there, but that's it. There's

00:05:58   other kind of, you can't brush on adjustments or anything like that. So, you know, people,

00:06:03   the Truth Squad was out and bless them for that. But Photos for Mac is fascinating. I

00:06:11   keep working on that book and discovering weird things that it does and then lots of

00:06:15   things that it just doesn't do. And I think, you know, some of them are baffling, like,

00:06:19   not being able to put your photo on a map from within the app. It's like everybody is

00:06:23   complaining about that. And I've got all these...

00:06:25   Adam: Super annoying.

00:06:26   all our pictures and I'm like I know where they were taken and they were taken at the

00:06:28   same time that these three phone pictures were taken and I'd like to put them together.

00:06:32   Nope. Can't do it. It's frustrating. But anyway, we mentioned that on Connected, episode 35.

00:06:37   People should check it out.

00:06:38   Steve McLaughlin You should check it out. And we have some listener

00:06:41   questions about photos.

00:06:42   David Tompa Yeah, I thought I would

00:06:43   Steve McLaughlin Insert.

00:06:44   David Tompa Collect them here. Yeah, because we've been

00:06:46   talking about photos a little bit here. Lister Darren asked, "What's the better photo solution

00:06:52   with the new services iCloud or on Dropbox. I know a lot of people are using Dropbox,

00:06:56   and especially since if you pay for Dropbox, you've got like a terabyte now. It's a lot

00:07:01   of room. I think it depends on what your photo approach is. iCloud is expensive compared

00:07:10   to most other cloud services, but you get it integrated in with all of Apple's apps.

00:07:17   That's what you're paying for, essentially. The apps are free. You pay for the cloud storage.

00:07:22   And I've got about 500 gigabytes of photos and videos now.

00:07:26   So, you know, that's what you're paying for.

00:07:30   Dropbox, you know, I feel like that's something that you do

00:07:34   if you want to take everything into your own hands. I think at that point you should probably be using

00:07:38   something that really, truly uses the file system as the management tool.

00:07:42   And Photos will let you drag photos in from the file system, but

00:07:46   boy, starting to fiddle with things changing in Dropbox underneath the Photos

00:07:50   app with reference photos. It sounds pretty scary to me. So I'm using iCloud right now

00:07:55   and I'm kind of happy to spend the money because it's super easy and it's automatically on

00:07:59   all my devices but you know there's no right answer here. It really depends on what you're

00:08:03   willing to pay and what your strategy is and what your family situation is too.

00:08:10   Yeah, yeah. So I used Dropbox for a long time using, you know, just using the file system

00:08:16   had it structured into folders. And I liked it because it was it was super fast to sort

00:08:20   through things and I had hazel rules naming images by the date and time. And it was nice

00:08:26   but what for me moving to photos what it's given me is that that visual way to scan through

00:08:32   images now yes and finder you could use you know the thumbnail view or whatever make it

00:08:35   bigger but and photos that's just it's a very visual way to store things and I've I've come

00:08:41   to appreciate that approach again. And even though I'm not so like we talked about connected

00:08:46   and not sold about all the iCloud stuff quite yet.

00:08:48   It is nice to be back in a more sort of visual way.

00:08:53   I can just thumb through a bunch of photos

00:08:55   really quickly and find the one I'm looking for,

00:08:57   as opposed to clicking through in Finder

00:08:59   and waiting for Finder to do its thing.

00:09:01   But we'll see where I land long term.

00:09:04   I don't promise that I'll stay in photos, but we'll see.

00:09:07   That's why follow-up exists, Jason.

00:09:09   We can come back when we change our minds.

00:09:11   Exactly.

00:09:12   I think-- yeah, I'm really enjoying the fact

00:09:15   that suddenly for the first time in a while all 55,000 photos that I've got in my assorted

00:09:21   iPhoto libraries are all in one Photos library. And Photos has now slowed down a little from

00:09:26   what it was when there were only 10,000 photos in there, but it's all still really navigable.

00:09:31   And it's not nearly as slow as iPhoto was with even 10,000 photos in it. It moves pretty

00:09:37   well. And I was just discovering the other day, like, these pictures that I know that

00:09:43   we took of my kids when they were really little. And I know the one picture and I'm looking

00:09:47   and I'm like, "Oh, we took 15 pictures then." And I'm looking through and it's like, you

00:09:51   know, it's almost like supplementary, like bonus material from my life. It's like, you

00:09:57   only know the one picture, but there were actually all these other pictures too. That

00:10:00   was pretty awesome. So I'm enjoying having access to all that. And the videos too, since

00:10:04   the videos are in the cloud as well and there's a videos view and photos. I'm seeing all these

00:10:09   videos of my kids that I took on like a phone when they were little and I've not even seen

00:10:15   them in years and they're all in the videos view now which is pretty cool too.

00:10:19   Yeah, it's I like some of that. I mean they're not smart albums but you know kind of like

00:10:24   I can see all my time-lapse stuff in one place which most of mine are my kids like running

00:10:27   around and dancing like in the yard. I just love all of those and I can just see them

00:10:32   all in one little place and there's not many of them but it's really an enjoyable little

00:10:35   corner of the photos universe. So a couple other quick bits of photos related

00:10:41   follow-up. A listener Mark asked, "When it's full, does it stop working?

00:10:47   Does it purge old files or does it auto-upgrade size?" The answer is, once your

00:10:53   iCloud photo library reaches your maximum amount of storage, a dialogue

00:10:57   comes up from Apple and says, "Would you like to buy more storage?"

00:11:01   but insert another quarter to keep playing.

00:11:03   And in fact, if you try to add a large library to a library larger than your size will fit,

00:11:11   Apple stops you and says, "You can't really do this unless you pay more." And so, yes,

00:11:15   insert quarter, which is when I went up to a terabyte, which I'm now only using half

00:11:19   of, so I've got to figure out whether I want to remove some things from the cloud, like

00:11:23   the videos, and go back to half a terabyte, or if I just want to embrace the fact that

00:11:28   and I'm putting everything in iCloud. But it tells you. I mean, Apple does. And it's

00:11:35   doing some de-duping too. It looks like it is doing like a checksum or something on every

00:11:39   piece of media and then asking the server, "Do you have this already?" And if it says

00:11:44   yes then it de-dups. That doesn't always work. I got a bunch of things. My first digital

00:11:51   camera was a Canon Powershot. I got like S110 or something and it didn't have. That was

00:11:55   when that was my first digital camera. It was a point and shoot and it was back when

00:12:00   the accelerometer was not a standard feature on digital cameras. So you had to when you

00:12:06   shot something in portrait you had to import it and rotate it because it didn't know that

00:12:10   the camera was being held in that orientation. So I found a bunch of pictures of my parents

00:12:19   holding my daughter right after she was born in the hospital where there are two of everything.

00:12:24   with them rotated and one not. And apparently I just had the originals and I don't know

00:12:28   what happened there, but that was an example where it couldn't dedupe them because they

00:12:31   look different, because one of them is a portrait and one of them is a landscape. But if they

00:12:35   are the same photo exactly, or the same video, it does a good job. It looks up online and

00:12:41   says, "Oh, I don't need to do anything with this. This is just a dupe," and it drops it.

00:12:44   So it tries to be efficient at it, but it will warn you if your library is too big to

00:12:51   go up to iCloud based on what you've purchased, and then you just buy more space. That's how

00:12:54   that works. Or you don't do it. You turn it off. Those are your choices at that point.

00:12:59   And Lister Jim asked, "In the Photos app, is there a way to sort the pics within the

00:13:03   new Albums view in both ascending and descending order?" You can reorder an Album view. I'm

00:13:08   not sure you can do an actual sort. Photos really wants it to be old on top and new on

00:13:15   bottom. Really. Like, really, really? I imagine that that might be something that they'll

00:13:19   change at some point so you can reverse the view, but that's what they want. But in albums,

00:13:24   you can drag things around. You can order an album any way you want. So you could do

00:13:29   that, but I don't think there's an auto-sort way. I haven't noticed that to sort it the

00:13:33   other direction. I think basically you can free-form it, you know, just freestyle, or

00:13:39   you can say sort by date. And those are your choices.

00:13:42   That's all I've seen. So if you do it manually, is that order reflected on your other devices?

00:13:46   Oh, that's a good question. I should check that out. It should be.

00:13:49   be, but I don't know if it is. There are some weird things. Some things don't translate

00:13:53   to iOS. It's very much one of those not very Apple-like things where there's things that

00:13:58   just don't come over, like to a second Mac, the faces don't come over. The face tagging

00:14:04   comes over. So if one Mac has said, "This is Jason Snell," the other Mac will have that

00:14:09   tag, but the face identification stuff doesn't come over, and smart albums don't come over.

00:14:16   So it's possible to iOS or Mac actually, so they just don't sing on iCloud at all.

00:14:22   So it's possible that they don't, but I would think that you would think that they would.

00:14:26   I just haven't tested that.

00:14:27   That's a great question.

00:14:28   You stumped the band.

00:14:29   Congratulations.

00:14:30   For only there was some sort of book I could buy.

00:14:31   Indeed.

00:14:32   Well, there was only some book that I could finish writing so that it could be published.

00:14:35   There it is.

00:14:36   I'm getting close.

00:14:37   I'm getting close.

00:14:38   Yeah.

00:14:39   And so listener Matt wrote in, "I have some feedback on the Magic Mouse."

00:14:42   Yeah.

00:14:43   Yeah.

00:14:44   that two blind men trying to figure out if it's an elephant kind of situation

00:14:48   where it's people who don't use the magic mouse comment on the magic mouse

00:14:52   do you use the magic mouse no I use the same mouse Myke uses the Logitech

00:14:58   revolution MX well listener Matt has because he uses the magic mouse has told

00:15:05   us there's an app that you can get at magic prefs calm that lets you set up

00:15:08   taps to work as clicks on the magic mouse he says it's great and that it

00:15:12   doesn't physically click, there's a small speaker that makes the sound of because

00:15:17   a silent mouse was freaking out the original testers. So that's one of those

00:15:20   those fake, like the MacBook when you click on it, it actually makes a sound

00:15:25   because the the surface vibrates, but apparently the Magic Mouse provides

00:15:32   audio feedback. This is what listener Matt says, "Regardless, we don't use it, so we

00:15:36   We don't know.

00:15:38   But sure, a Force Touch Magic Mouse would be great.

00:15:41   We think.

00:15:42   Yeah, maybe.

00:15:43   I mean, I don't know.

00:15:45   I haven't used Force Touch, except in the Apple Store.

00:15:52   And I could see how, once you get used to it, right, like if you're like me, I've

00:15:57   got a MacBook Pro, right now I'm using it by itself, just plugged into a bunch of stuff

00:16:01   at my desk at home, but at work it's on a stand with a display and keyboard and mouse,

00:16:05   and I could see once you get used to force touch somewhere,

00:16:08   you would want it everywhere.

00:16:10   So for me, it's the gestures and the trackpad.

00:16:12   Then I go to the Logitech mouse, and I have no gestures.

00:16:15   And I've gotten used to that.

00:16:17   I've mapped.

00:16:17   It was nice with Logitech, you can map thumb down

00:16:20   to various things.

00:16:21   And you can kind of fake it a little bit.

00:16:23   But I could see once you're-- you

00:16:26   want your setup to be the same as much as possible.

00:16:29   So at some point, I think it'll show up other places.

00:16:32   I don't know how it would work at a mouse.

00:16:34   are those modules you know the magnets and everything small enough can you power them

00:16:38   on AA batteries I mean there's lots of questions there but one day I think they could show up

00:16:43   everywhere yeah I don't know I don't know my knowledge of Magic Mouse is so is zero but

00:16:50   but thanks to Matt for the for the report back well I think we move on to regular topics but first

00:16:57   it would be great since you're being Myke today it would be great to for you to tell us about a

00:17:03   a friend of the show if you could.

00:17:05   - I would, I would love to tell you about Igloo,

00:17:08   the internet you will actually like.

00:17:11   So Jason, why invest, Jason,

00:17:15   why invest in the latest, sleekest devices

00:17:17   if you're gonna use them to stare at an internet website

00:17:19   that was built in the '90s?

00:17:21   - Woo, '90s, party, woo!

00:17:23   - I've used these things,

00:17:24   a lot of corporate internets are really terrible

00:17:27   and that's where Igloo comes in.

00:17:29   Not only can Igloo be customized

00:17:31   to look exactly like your brand,

00:17:32   but it's responsive, automatically optimized

00:17:35   for any device you're using, even

00:17:37   if you're in the 6 Plus Club, like Myke and I and all

00:17:40   the cool kids.

00:17:41   You can use your favorite Apple devices,

00:17:43   because igloo just lets you do your best work.

00:17:46   Share files, coordinate calendars,

00:17:48   provide status updates, and manage projects.

00:17:51   Igloo is not just for traditional internet stuff

00:17:54   like HR policies and expense forms.

00:17:56   It gives you the tools to work better together with your team.

00:18:00   Igloo's latest upgrade, Viking, revolves around documents

00:18:03   and how you interact with them.

00:18:04   You can gather feedback and make changes.

00:18:07   And there's an ability to track who

00:18:08   has read critical information.

00:18:10   So if you send out training and you really

00:18:11   need Jason to read it, and Jason's a slacker,

00:18:13   you can see that Jason hasn't read it.

00:18:14   Yeah, true.

00:18:15   You can deal with it.

00:18:16   It's like read email receipts, but way better.

00:18:19   If your company has a legacy internet that

00:18:21   looks like it was built in the '90s,

00:18:23   you should really give Igloo a try.

00:18:25   But you know, Igloo, those guys are super smart.

00:18:27   They understand that love doesn't happen overnight.

00:18:29   So if you sign up now, you can try Igloo for free

00:18:32   with a team of up to 10 people for as long as you want.

00:18:35   Sign up right now at igloosoftware.com/upgrade.

00:18:39   Thank you so much to those guys.

00:18:40   Thank you Igloo for sponsoring Upgrade

00:18:42   and all of Relay FM.

00:18:44   - Yeah.

00:18:45   Our pals, our friends.

00:18:46   - Our friends.

00:18:47   - So our first topic is the mic vertical.

00:18:51   Or the podcasting vertical,

00:18:53   but I wanted to just really quickly say,

00:18:55   so you saw Myke this weekend in Atlanta.

00:18:57   You did the Panatic Live.

00:18:58   and I had some text messages because you set up the equipment, you did live audio stream,

00:19:06   you did videos. Tell me a little bit about what, I assume that you'll talk about this

00:19:10   on other shows too, but I get you first. So give me some of the lowdown from Atlanta.

00:19:15   - Yeah, so if people might not be familiar, the Pen Addict is a show here on relay, fountain

00:19:22   pens, fancy writing utensils, notebooks, paper, that sort of thing.

00:19:25   Yeah, my wife's feedback, by the way, she said that every time I say "pen addict,"

00:19:29   she assumes, I say it's about pens, she assumes that that's a tech acronym, like PEN,

00:19:33   it's like Personal Electronic Notebook or something like that.

00:19:36   I said, "No, it's The Things You Write With."

00:19:37   She's like, "Really?

00:19:38   A podcast about that?"

00:19:39   Yep.

00:19:40   Yeah, it's very real.

00:19:41   So the listeners in that show funded a Kickstarter, which is super great, to bring Myke to Atlanta,

00:19:49   Georgia for the Atlanta Pen Show.

00:19:52   So it's like a hotel conference center and there's a couple of rooms and there's vendors.

00:19:57   Brad Dowdy, who's a host on the network, also owns a company called Knock where they make

00:20:01   pen cases.

00:20:02   And so Kickstarter was very successful and we flew Myke over.

00:20:08   I came down, drove down from Memphis with my brother who is in the nonprofit sector

00:20:13   but his nonprofit does a lot of video work.

00:20:16   And so they came down and we've basically filmed the entire weekend.

00:20:23   And we did a live audio podcast.

00:20:28   So we bought some XLR mics, bought some short betas, and we bought a little USB XLR interface

00:20:34   to put all those together, live streamed it.

00:20:38   And all of it's a video that the Kickstarter backers will get.

00:20:41   They'll get that next month after it's all edited and put together and everything.

00:20:45   So it was a heck of a three day thing.

00:20:48   I'm really tired.

00:20:49   - Yeah, I bet.

00:20:50   - But it was a lot of fun.

00:20:51   - I bet, you know, I listened to the show live.

00:20:54   It was episode 150 of The Pen Addicts,

00:20:56   so it was perfectly timed, too.

00:20:58   - Which is, it's a bunch of episodes.

00:21:02   - That's a lot of pens.

00:21:03   - It's a lot of pens, it's a lot of pens.

00:21:04   - Love ink, love ink spilled.

00:21:06   I was fascinated listening to it

00:21:09   because I felt like this is how people

00:21:11   who aren't into tech stuff think we talk,

00:21:13   which is you throw out acronyms and technical terms.

00:21:17   And they were talking about like,

00:21:19   I was writing on sandpaper so that the nibs

00:21:22   with the widgets are bibbly and the,

00:21:25   I'm just making things up now,

00:21:26   but it was like, I have no idea what they're talking about.

00:21:29   For me, the pen has got the little part

00:21:33   that you can attach to something,

00:21:35   and then you've got the little clicky part,

00:21:37   and the part you write, the end you write with.

00:21:40   And that's my pen knowledge,

00:21:41   is just that you point it at the paper and it writes. But they were just going deep down

00:21:46   and super enthusiastic. And I love that. I love how enthusiastic they were about it.

00:21:51   Because it's like those documentaries like The King of Kong or some things like that.

00:21:55   But I love documentaries about people who are super excited about anything, even if

00:22:00   I don't understand it. And the pen stuff I totally don't understand. But it was fun to

00:22:03   listen to them be excited about being together and talking about pens.

00:22:07   Yeah, you know, it's one of those worlds where it's very much in parallel to the nerd world

00:22:13   that you and I run in, of the sort of Apple-centric stuff.

00:22:16   And you also, with The Incomparable, have sort of the pop culture sci-fi nerd kingdom

00:22:22   as well that I have kind of half a foot in, you know, don't really spend a lot of time

00:22:27   in that world, not as much as you do.

00:22:28   But what's great is that passion.

00:22:30   I think that's really what defines being a nerd is being passionate about something really

00:22:36   specific. And for all these people who showed up to Atlanta, people flew in. Myke wasn't

00:22:41   the only one who got on an airplane to come to this. We're at this party at Knox workshop

00:22:48   and there's a field note swap going on. There's pictures of it that'll be in the video of

00:22:54   these guys with these huge boxes of field notebooks, which I use and I'm interested

00:22:58   in. But these guys, they keep them in order of the various issues and have complete clarity.

00:23:06   collections and everything and it's just great like the enthusiasm the excitement

00:23:11   the the passion for these things is is really what is the common thread between

00:23:16   the various like types of nerd I think and so it's it was a lot of fun to see

00:23:20   that and and to be a part of it for a weekend and you know I've known Brad for

00:23:24   a long time I've been on I've been on their show a couple times about various

00:23:27   things but um yeah I had that thought run through my mind if like this is what

00:23:31   people like look at all of us at WWDC and like huh those guys are kind of like

00:23:36   like passionate about things that I'm not.

00:23:38   And it's just the same thing, right?

00:23:40   Like, it's the same type of passion.

00:23:43   - Yeah, that's exactly it.

00:23:45   I recognize the passion, even if I don't recognize

00:23:49   what they're talking about.

00:23:50   I can appreciate the passion, and I love to see that.

00:23:52   I just love it when people are excited about stuff,

00:23:55   and they love stuff.

00:23:56   That's much more interesting to me than people

00:23:58   who hate stuff, and are bored, and the un-wee,

00:24:00   and oh God, why am I even here?

00:24:02   That's not so fun.

00:24:03   the enthusiasm, even if I don't understand it or share it, it's just kind of contagious

00:24:08   to be around people like that. So that was a cool little view into another world. And

00:24:13   I think it's really cool that the listeners pitched in to get Myke to fly out.

00:24:20   Oh yeah. And they made the video possible. And I'm looking right now at the Kickstarter

00:24:24   page, 479 backers. And a bunch of those people were at the party, which was a lot of fun

00:24:31   just to meet some people, you know, a lot of people like, Oh,

00:24:33   I can know your voice from shows. And we gave away some

00:24:37   stickers and t shirts and stuff. And, you know, it's one of those

00:24:40   things where like, this project, we're doing the super meta

00:24:44   podcast thing, but we'll stop in a second. Yeah. Like, this is

00:24:47   why we made relay a thing like Myke and I from day one, like we

00:24:52   want to try things, we want to do things that are beyond just

00:24:55   putting out an hour of audio a week. And this is really one of

00:24:57   the first like, big things we've done. And there's another one

00:25:01   and actually following on it's another kind of weird,

00:25:03   exciting thing we're going to do announced later this week.

00:25:06   But it's very much like this is why

00:25:09   we did this because we can just go out and do stuff

00:25:11   and see if it works.

00:25:12   And the Kickstarter was very successful.

00:25:14   And we fully plan to do more of this type of stuff

00:25:16   with various different shows.

00:25:19   With all the great shows.

00:25:20   All the great shows, really.

00:25:23   So yeah, it was a lot of fun.

00:25:24   So thank you to everyone who came out and said hi

00:25:26   and backed us on Kickstarter.

00:25:27   And it'll be fun to get that video out into the world.

00:25:31   It's-- I mean, some of the stuff is just like--

00:25:34   we have this shot of this box of Retro 51s, which

00:25:36   is a brand of pen.

00:25:37   I bought one.

00:25:38   And it's like every color in the rainbow,

00:25:41   plus like every pattern you can think of all laid out.

00:25:44   I mean, just beautiful stuff of made with care, sold with care.

00:25:48   People who use them care about it.

00:25:50   Like, it's just that--

00:25:51   again, that passion, that excitement

00:25:53   is just really contagious when you come across it.

00:25:56   Yeah.

00:25:57   I should mention that it's funny that you said I recognize your voice.

00:26:00   This is a story speaking of excitement and passion.

00:26:03   This weekend Dan Morin was at the Star Wars Celebration which is the big Star Wars convention

00:26:09   and it was in Anaheim and he said he was standing there and heard a familiar voice from behind

00:26:17   him and turned around and it was David Sparks from MacPowerUsers who was also at the Star

00:26:22   Wars.

00:26:23   of them I'll put in the show notes but it was that was kind of funny and I've had that

00:26:28   too where it's the voice thing where you realize oh somebody I know from a podcast is standing

00:26:32   behind me because I hear their voice. One other short topic before we talk about our

00:26:37   next our next friend which is I wrote this thing on six colors last week about buying

00:26:43   beer yeah I saw that which people are like well that's that's different that's not your

00:26:48   usual, that's not your usual subject. Well, one of the things that Six Colors affords

00:26:53   me is the ability to write about whatever the heck I want to write about if I think

00:26:57   that it's sort of relevant. And I thought this was sort of relevant because I was standing

00:27:01   in Whole Foods because the Whole Foods is right next to my house essentially and it's

00:27:07   easy to walk over there and we were getting something else. And whenever I'm in there

00:27:10   I like to look at what beer they have because they, you know, and then your brain is doing

00:27:14   the processing like you're just looking down a row and then you look down the next row

00:27:17   and you're trying to read the labels but not study each of them because there's a whole

00:27:20   bunch of them. And it struck me that this is exactly how I used to shop for books, for

00:27:26   CDs, back in the day when there were record stores, and all sorts of other things that

00:27:33   back when things were scarce. And with beer, there is not, at least in the US, it's not

00:27:38   like there's an Amazon for beer where you can literally get anything that's available

00:27:42   and see what's not available. It's old school. There's not a whole lot to this other than

00:27:48   to say that it struck me that this is old shopping style, but it still remains for a

00:27:54   few categories, and in other categories it's been completely blown away. Because I remember

00:27:58   looking for that particular Peter Gabriel album in cassette or CD form for several years,

00:28:07   like two, three years before I found it in a record store in Ashland, Oregon when I was

00:28:13   on a school trip. And I remember that moment of like, "Hooray!" And I have people say to

00:28:18   me, nostalgically, like, "Wasn't that a great moment when you finally found it, and wasn't

00:28:21   it fun to hunt for it?" And I say, "Well, I don't know if it was fun to hunt for it,

00:28:25   but it was something I could hunt for, something I could do in a record store." And now I walk

00:28:28   into a bookstore and I'm like, "Eh, I have nothing to look for here. I mean, I can look

00:28:31   at the shelves, but I'm not going to buy anything. I probably already got it on a Kindle and

00:28:34   whatever. But you know what would have been better than finding it in the record store

00:28:40   in Ashland, Oregon would have been having it two years before when I discovered that

00:28:44   this album existed. That would have been better. And I know that's not very nostalgic to

00:28:48   say, "No, the thrill of the hunt for the thing that's missing and all that," but

00:28:51   I would rather just have it.

00:28:53   Jared: Yeah, I'm the same way. Like, I'm why those stores don't exist anymore. Also,

00:28:59   I was one year old when you bought that cassette tape.

00:29:03   I was 17, I think, when I found that, or 16. But yeah, I was a senior in high school when

00:29:11   you were a little tiny baby looking for a tape. And I did find that on tape. That was

00:29:16   an era where not everything was on CD yet. And that was an obscure solo album from 1978.

00:29:25   And it was available on cassette, and I found a cassette. And that was a great score. But,

00:29:30   you know. I would have rather just had it. It just struck me that with beer, there's

00:29:36   a beer that I found that I really liked and it's hard to find now. It was a limited edition,

00:29:40   so it's probably just not being made, and that's fine. I realized there's no way to

00:29:43   know. Some places might have it in stock, some might not. It's just a crapshoot. That's

00:29:49   fine. It is kind of an adventure, although if I find something I really like and then

00:29:52   I can't get it, I just kind of want to have it and I can't get it. That frustrates me.

00:29:58   it was just the bigger picture of, "This is how shopping used to be." And, you know, we

00:30:02   can look at it through nostalgia, but I was like, "That kind of sucked. I really like

00:30:05   that if there's a book that exists, I can get it." Like, Infinite Loop. We were talking

00:30:10   with John on this show, and he said that's the one to read that's about Apple and about

00:30:15   how Apple kind of loses its way when in the Scully era and after. And it seems to be out

00:30:22   of print, but I got one in -- I went on Amazon and I got a used copy in like two days.

00:30:27   I did the exact same thing listening to that episode. It's sitting on my nightstand.

00:30:31   Yeah, it's right behind me here. And that's kind of awesome. And yeah, I could have darkened

00:30:35   the doors of every used bookstore ever and not found it because I didn't go to the right

00:30:40   one, but there was a used copy at this other bookstore that was a little further away.

00:30:44   Or I could just press a button and say, "Okay, now I've got that book that I want to read."

00:30:49   I prefer, call me not appropriately nostalgic, but I prefer to just get the things I want

00:30:57   instead of spending years hunting for them.

00:31:00   - Yeah, I'm the same way.

00:31:02   I think it depends a little bit,

00:31:04   like going back to the Field Notes guys this weekend,

00:31:06   or like if I'm looking for,

00:31:08   there's some things that you have to hunt down, right?

00:31:11   Like if I'm looking for a particular Mac

00:31:13   or something to add to the collection,

00:31:14   I need to do my homework on that.

00:31:16   But for instance, like all the audio gear

00:31:19   we bought for Atlanta, you know,

00:31:21   the nice thing about shopping online

00:31:25   is that I can do all this research, right?

00:31:28   I knew exactly what I was buying.

00:31:29   I knew exactly what I was getting into with it.

00:31:32   And it was all mapped out and planned out.

00:31:33   So when I set it up, I had no doubt

00:31:35   that it would all work the way I expected.

00:31:37   And that's the huge upside for me as someone who,

00:31:41   I'm not a, usually not an impulse buyer,

00:31:44   especially when it comes to like,

00:31:46   stuff like audio equipment or big ticket items.

00:31:48   I'm going to do my research and do my homework.

00:31:50   And I know that when I hit purchase,

00:31:53   that I'm not planning on using Amazon's very generous return

00:31:57   policy.

00:31:58   And so that's the huge upside, right?

00:32:00   Like 15 years ago, I would have had a go--

00:32:02   and there were several local audio AV music stores in town.

00:32:05   I could have bought those microphones and cables

00:32:07   and stands from any of them.

00:32:10   But you're talking to the sales guy,

00:32:11   and maybe the sales guy is not super knowledgeable

00:32:13   about vocal mics.

00:32:14   Maybe he's a guitar guy, and he's just

00:32:16   in the mic section for some reason,

00:32:17   and you catch him, right?

00:32:19   There's all those variables that just don't really

00:32:22   exist anymore.

00:32:23   yes, there are people who review things that don't know what they're talking about, but

00:32:26   you can read such a wide cross-section of reviews and articles and comparisons that

00:32:33   you can make a really informed buying decision.

00:32:35   And that, as someone who cares about that sort of stuff, is great for me.

00:32:40   When I bought my USB interface from my microphone, I bought two of different ones, and I tried

00:32:45   one out and tried the other out and then sent one back.

00:32:47   That was great.

00:32:49   That was really great.

00:32:50   and because I couldn't decide. You could do that before, but you'd have to go to an audio

00:32:57   store and hope they had it in stock, both of them or one of them, and see what their

00:33:01   return policy is. Anyway, my story was not really about beer so much as how I think our

00:33:07   expectations for shopping have changed and how shopping for beer feels very 20th century.

00:33:14   There are reasons for that. There's the 18 restriction. There's the weight of the cost

00:33:18   of shipping. It's seriouspets.com kind of stuff where it's like, "Why do we want to

00:33:22   ship this? It's really heavy." In the U.S., there's lots of interstate transport of alcohol

00:33:30   kind of laws. It's totally understandable why this is not a thing that has been revolutionized

00:33:35   like some other areas. It's sort of quaint in that way and I suppose nostalgic. I'm happy

00:33:42   with the 21st century way of shopping. Yeah.

00:33:45   Yeah. Yeah, totally agree. All right, it's time for another sponsor break. I guess this

00:33:51   is my job now because I always read this one. So you get to take, like Myke, you get to

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00:36:01   I feel uncomfortable with that. Mailbagging! Okay, how about this? How about this? An outbound

00:36:07   relay. Relay! Okay. You don't want to step on Myke's thing. You think mailbagging is

00:36:14   Myke's thing now? I think so. Okay. Well, you can be excited about outbound relay. You're

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00:37:04   Relay FM.

00:37:09   John Siracusa retired from writing reviews.

00:37:14   He did.

00:37:15   I saw that.

00:37:16   I was at an NBA game.

00:37:19   And I was at a baseball game.

00:37:21   We posted pictures of sports things in the relay chat while we were doing sports things.

00:37:25   all over the place. We were sporting, yeah.

00:37:28   And yeah, so I, you know, pick up my phone for a second and it's like someone had texted

00:37:33   me, "Did you see the news about John Syracuse?" I was like, "What is that?"

00:37:37   Is he okay? Yeah, yeah, that was actually my first thought.

00:37:39   I was like, "Oh my God." And so yeah, so there's, he's been doing this, what, 15 years? It's

00:37:45   crazy. Yeah, yeah, since the 20th century.

00:37:50   Wow. Actually.

00:37:52   Yeah, it's been a while. I had that moment where I looked at the first bylined OS X review that I wrote was X1. So that's October 2001.

00:38:07   So I am considered older than dirt by a lot of people because I've been writing about Apple since '94.

00:38:16   before, but John was out there with his OS X reviews before I was. I like to think that

00:38:23   I basically have written a review of everything since 10.0, but the fact is the first few

00:38:29   articles that Macworld did on it, I was the features editor, so I was editing them, and

00:38:33   I did a lot of rewriting some of those articles because we ended up having really technical

00:38:36   people write them, and then the job of the editor was to shape them into an article that

00:38:43   was less technical and understandable by other people, it was a funny era because we were

00:38:48   all kind of bogging down in the Unix stuff and all of that. So I've got my 10.1 review

00:38:55   and it's still online and that one is very much like the "it's safe to go in the water

00:38:58   now" review. But to think that John, I mean that's just one of those things, like John

00:39:04   was there from the very start writing that stuff.

00:39:07   Yeah, the early ones are before Aqua. So when it still looked like the classic Mac OS, it's

00:39:15   really a wild time to flip through those.

00:39:19   Yeah, it's amazing. James Thompson, at his presentation, talked about how Syracuse criticized

00:39:26   his version of the dock that was in one of the developer previews. It's just amazing.

00:39:32   People forget that Jon doesn't do this for a living. I do this for a living. Even now,

00:39:37   My job has changed quite a bit, but this is what I do.

00:39:39   This is what my job is.

00:39:40   John's job is a web developer.

00:39:44   That's his job.

00:39:45   Everything we know him for, everything that--

00:39:47   unless you are one of the clients of John's company,

00:39:51   you know John for his side projects.

00:39:54   That's just the facts.

00:39:55   And we think he's a fabulous, famous star.

00:39:57   And he is in our world, as Andy Anacko often

00:40:01   likes to say, world famous in Poland.

00:40:03   He's got that narrow fame.

00:40:05   And he does fantastic work.

00:40:07   ATP is my go-to tech podcast. Those reviews are spectacular, but it's important to keep

00:40:13   in mind that he's got a family and he's got a day job. And I thought I really liked in

00:40:18   his story how he said it's not just about feeling like he's done this job and that it's

00:40:24   time to move on, but also having the prospect of a summer where he's not catching every

00:40:30   spare moment when he's at home to write chapters of a book about OS X, essentially, is something

00:40:39   he's looking forward to. That's a huge amount of work, and that's work on top of his work.

00:40:44   And then going to WWDC, that's a week's vacation he takes to go there. It's a big thing. And

00:40:52   yeah, we could talk about, like, could Jon quit his job and be Mac Pundit full-time?

00:40:57   I think he could, probably, but I think he would be uncomfortable doing it, and I think

00:41:02   he takes a great pride in his profession, in what he does as his profession. And I don't

00:41:08   think he wants to give up being a professional developer to be an Apple-themed pundit, as

00:41:14   good as he is at it. So I totally, I'm glad he wrote it the way he did about the, you

00:41:20   know, recapturing some of his time for his family, for other projects he wants to do,

00:41:26   it's not like he's going away. When he started, this was his entire outlet, and the fact is,

00:41:30   ATP is a great weekly creative outlet for him, and he's on a lot of incomparable episodes

00:41:34   too, and that's a great outlet for him. The podcasting has made it so that this is not

00:41:40   his only way of expressing his interest in these subjects, and since he's got RSI, so

00:41:47   he was dictating this stuff all along, podcasting's better, right? There's very little typing

00:41:51   when you're podcasting.

00:41:52   Right. No, it makes sense. You know on this week's

00:41:55   ATP or last week's I don't know what day it is anymore

00:42:00   When he announced it, you know Marco was like, you know from like the reader perspective

00:42:05   I'm sad

00:42:05   But as someone who knows you personally like I'm I'm not surprised and I'm almost relieved that you're you're making this this change

00:42:12   And it is you know, I made a joke on Twitter that you should read these to your children because they're made these

00:42:20   Reviews are part of our subculture

00:42:22   But at the same time like clearly if you listen to John a podcaster, you know read his site clearly

00:42:28   These are taking a toll and it's like yeah, that's just not worth it and and clearly, you know

00:42:32   He came to the point where you know this this thing it's time for you know

00:42:37   This to end and any of us who have side projects now

00:42:39   I'm in the same boat John's in where podcasting writing is not my full-time job and I'm you know carving out of

00:42:46   You know family time and time that I could have if I had any hobbies, you know that weren't this

00:42:51   So I definitely understand it and there have been things that I've done

00:42:55   You know

00:42:56   I used to do this monthly like magazine for members of my site in iBooks and it took up so much time

00:43:02   I was like, you know, this is great. I really enjoyed doing it

00:43:04   I just can't do it anymore, you know, and maybe one day that'll come back

00:43:07   but it was a you know, the time in and the value out that equation was just off or

00:43:14   Sometimes you just know it's time time to move on from something. So

00:43:17   And that's really hard to do. It's really hard to

00:43:21   Step away from something that you care about and so my my my hats off to him for not only for writing them

00:43:27   But knowing when it was time to stop so well and anybody who who knows John and anybody really who listens to John knows John

00:43:34   I mean, that's John John John. That's John

00:43:37   He's not gonna half-ass it that's the other thing it's like if he's gonna do it

00:43:42   he's going to do it. And I think that's part of it, too, is like, you know, could

00:43:47   John -- because I was thinking about this -- who wants to follow John Syracuse doing

00:43:53   those reviews at ours? Like, I thought about it because I'm a free agent now, and I don't

00:43:59   want to follow that act, but more than that -- so that's interesting. Like, who wants

00:44:04   to follow that? I mean, I'm going to cover the next version of OS X, and I'll do it

00:44:08   my own way on my own terms, but following that act, not only that, John has to follow

00:44:14   that act. John has to live up to his track record. And if his interest is flagging, you

00:44:19   know, he doesn't want, I think, to do a 2,000-word review for ours, which he could do, of OS

00:44:27   10, because that would not be the John Syracuse review. It needs to be 20,000 words long.

00:44:31   And so for him, it's like you got to be all in or all out, and he's all out. And I think

00:44:36   that's I think that's good for him it's sad for us that we won't have that

00:44:40   definitive piece but it's not like we're losing his voice so you know that's

00:44:45   that's I'm happy for him because that is I mean literally you imagine taking up

00:44:51   all of your spare time for the entire summer with this project that's he's

00:44:57   been doing that for it you know 15 years now right which I mean it really is I'm

00:45:02   I'm sure if you add that up, and I'm sure he has,

00:45:04   it's really crazy.

00:45:06   Yeah, and the annual pace now.

00:45:07   It didn't used to be an annual pace,

00:45:08   but now that it's an annual pace, it is every summer.

00:45:11   Yeah.

00:45:12   Yeah, I mean, back Tiger was out,

00:45:14   Leopard was out for multiple years.

00:45:16   And I agree with you.

00:45:18   I didn't really consider it, because I

00:45:21   know that gig is beyond what I could do, probably

00:45:24   both professionally and time-wise.

00:45:26   But I've reviewed Mountain Lion, Mavericks, and Yosemite

00:45:29   on my site.

00:45:30   And they're not 2,000 words, they're longer than that,

00:45:33   but they're definitely not Saracusean in length or in detail.

00:45:37   In fact, my Yosemite one is really just a design review.

00:45:41   I didn't really get into the features of Yosemite,

00:45:43   it's mostly what's new visually.

00:45:46   - Right, I remember that.

00:45:49   That was a nice angle.

00:45:49   See, that's one thing you can do if you're not following,

00:45:52   if you're not John, having to do what John does.

00:45:55   You can say, "What if I just looked at the design?"

00:45:58   Right.

00:45:59   And so that's, I think, how I will continue to do that, is find-- Mountain Lion and Mavericks

00:46:03   were feature by feature, what's new, screenshots, that sort of thing.

00:46:07   But Yosemite was easy because the visual overchange was so massive.

00:46:14   And I'll continue to do that sort of thing.

00:46:15   It is enjoyable, but I know that just these smaller ones that I'm doing, how much time

00:46:21   they're taking, especially the Mavericks one, took a long time.

00:46:26   Yosemite was shorter because it was mostly visual and I waited until you know, we were pretty far along

00:46:31   In the the betas because the first dark mode didn't even ship with the first couple betas

00:46:37   I think so I was like well, you know, I can outline but I can't write or

00:46:40   Really talk about it till I can use it

00:46:43   but it's um

00:46:45   You know, it's one of those things that

00:46:47   John's content is not going away. He's gonna be talking about it on ATP and on Twitter and everything and so

00:46:54   I will miss reading them, but there's still a lot of ways to experience new versions of OS X

00:47:01   before installing yourself. A lot of people are still going to be doing this.

00:47:04   Well, it's a much richer environment for that than it used to be, too.

00:47:08   That's also true, that there was a time when there were not that many people reviewing OS X.

00:47:12   You know, it was--I feel like--and maybe I'm wrong at this--but I feel like there was a time when

00:47:16   when I would write a review of, like, 10.2 or something,

00:47:19   there were very few others that I could even look to and compare my Mac world feature story

00:47:25   to and John was one. There were not often a lot of others and now there are a million

00:47:30   of them and different angles and it's just a much richer world than it was when he was

00:47:34   doing this, you know, even ten, five years ago.

00:47:37   Yeah, it's definitely true, you know, it's, I mean, 15 years is a long time, you know,

00:47:44   My site's going to be seven this fall, and that's really, I mean, I've been doing OS

00:47:50   10 reviews for three, so it's, you're definitely right, the space has just grown, has grown

00:47:57   so much, and that's great, because it is richer, but it is, it's hard to find that definitive

00:48:04   review now, you know.

00:48:05   Right.

00:48:06   So, let's see.

00:48:08   All right, I think we can move on to Ask Upgrade, which has a sponsor this week.

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00:49:43   #AskUpgradeTime. I'm excited to do this.

00:49:50   Well, you should hand them off to me. Let me...

00:49:54   Well, before we start, there's one more of a #TellUpgrade. Our friend,

00:49:58   And the anonymous Apple Store person, who is the same person as before, what we've talked

00:50:04   about before, had another tidbit that this person wanted to share, which is, Myke described

00:50:10   these, the terminals at the Apple Store, the ETA terminals, they're called, this person

00:50:17   says, Isaacs now?

00:50:18   Yes, I've heard that as well.

00:50:20   And they were upgraded to iPhone 5s last year, at least in the US, and this person says,

00:50:26   I'm glad you both enjoyed your Tryon appointments. We trained for weeks on all things Apple Watch.

00:50:33   So, you did a Tryon? Did you do one?

00:50:37   I did. I did do a Tryon. I did it the first day. So I was up at 3 a.m. ordering and then

00:50:41   at the Apple Store at 5 p.m. to try it on. And it was really great. You know, it's like

00:50:46   everyone says, it's really personal, it's really helpful. You know, I still know, even

00:50:51   though I've been gone for, you know, seven years, I still know quite a few people at

00:50:55   the Apple store. And so, you know, one of the majors came over and was like talking

00:50:59   me through it, you know, there was a trained employee actually doing the try on with me,

00:51:04   but a manager came over and we were talking and the the level it's a very high touch experience.

00:51:09   And I think it's something that the Apple store used to be known for before they got

00:51:13   so busy. And it's nice to see that return to form of really nice, rich one to one interactions.

00:51:21   And I think it's great.

00:51:22   I think the whole thing is very well done, very high class.

00:51:26   It feels like you're not in a computer store.

00:51:28   It feels nicer than that.

00:51:30   And so I think it's a great little program.

00:51:32   And I would say even if you're not going to buy an Apple Watch, if you're remotely interested

00:51:36   in it, you should go just to have the experience of taking 15, 20 minutes to try some on and

00:51:41   ask questions and use it because it really is an interesting product and a pretty nice

00:51:46   program from Apple retail.

00:51:48   Yeah, something that I mentioned last week is the idea that Apple stores with this kind

00:51:54   of chaotic, like there's no line, there's no register, you've got to flag somebody down.

00:52:00   That's very, you know, it's the future of retail and yet it's also really frustrating

00:52:04   when you just want to get something done and you, you know, there's no, it seems chaotic

00:52:08   and I like, I think that's a challenge for the Apple retail experience. What I like about

00:52:13   the try-on stuff is that it feels, again, like they're introducing some structure and

00:52:19   something that feels like really good customer service into the Apple retail store experience

00:52:23   because it's frankly it's been a while since I felt something quite that different from

00:52:29   the Apple store. Now it's sort of, you know, like I said, it's a little frustrating to

00:52:34   flag somebody down. It's not like it's bad service, but this felt like a cut above and

00:52:38   I yeah, I think it's worth doing if you're curious about this stuff even if you're not

00:52:41   gonna buy. There's no hard sell here. It's just, you know, they're well trained to, you

00:52:46   know, they've got their little little rag and their two watches at a time rule and all

00:52:49   that and they'll make it they'll make it happen.

00:52:52   Yeah, so um, so listener Chris writes in to say, "On Google Plus, the Verge is commonly

00:53:00   known as iVerge due to Apple bias. Do you think that's fair?"

00:53:06   This comment made me laugh.

00:53:07   This is a little inside baseball.

00:53:09   Yeah, but basically what I would say is anybody who covers Apple is accused of Apple bias.

00:53:19   Anybody who covers Android is accused of Android bias. If you're not a site that is catering

00:53:23   to a particular audience, like, you know, I'm writing to people who like Apple stuff,

00:53:29   and I write about it in that context. I'm not interested in or qualified in doing a

00:53:34   a shootout between iOS and Android. I'm just not interested in it. I tried that for a little

00:53:40   while at TechHive, and I decided I'd rather not do that, and that's not what I'm trying

00:53:45   to do. But if you're The Verge, you've got to do that. And yeah, anybody who says anything

00:53:49   positive about vendor A is going to make the people who are fans of vendor B angry. Do

00:53:54   I think The Verge is biased toward Apple? Is it iverge? Well, I don't know. As somebody

00:54:01   who knows a lot about Apple stuff, I look at a lot of The Verge's coverage about Android

00:54:07   stuff and roll my eyes. So, you know, I think it's all in the eye of the beholder. I think

00:54:11   The Verge has a difficult job, as all of these multi-platform sites do, because first off,

00:54:20   they have to cover all of this stuff, and that's hard, and second, you know, it depends

00:54:24   on each individual reader and their needs. So, you know, if you're somebody who can't

00:54:32   decide, then that's a very different story than somebody who's invested into one platform

00:54:37   or the other. And if you're somebody who's just looking at stories about the other side

00:54:40   as fodder for your, you know, long twilight struggle with the enemy, then sure, you'll

00:54:47   be disappointed if an article doesn't provide you with that material because it says something

00:54:51   positive about something. So also let's be clear about watch coverage. Nobody is deciding

00:54:56   between an Android Wear watch and an Apple Watch because they're both extensions of the

00:55:01   platforms. Nobody is saying which one should you get a Moto 360 or an Apple Watch because

00:55:06   nobody, and now I've said nobody, somebody's gonna say, "Well, actually, I'm buying a new

00:55:10   phone soon and I'm on the fence about Apple or Android." Okay, essentially nobody, how

00:55:14   about we say it that way, is going to use the watch right now as the differentiator.

00:55:19   that'll happen someday, but I feel like if you've got an Android phone, you're looking

00:55:22   at the Android watches. If you've got an iPhone, you're looking at the Apple Watch. There's

00:55:25   really no other game other than the Pebble. Hi, Pebble.

00:55:29   Steve McLaughlin Hi. Those guys.

00:55:31   Chris Smith But, so I think, you know, I don't think it's

00:55:34   fair. I think it's a tough job, and I think there are a lot of people who are always out.

00:55:39   The people who are calling the Verge iVerge are people who want the Verge to bash Apple

00:55:43   and are disappointed that they say nice things about Apple from time to time, in addition

00:55:47   to saying not nice things about them. But those people aren't interested in in by in

00:55:51   unbiased coverage. They're interested in their bias.

00:55:53   Yeah, you know, I'm putting the link in now there's some roommates I think so good such

00:56:02   a guy to a fight in a parking lot. A guy hit another guy with a beer bottle over iPhone

00:56:11   versus Android. Yeah, I mean, that might be taking it a little far. I mean, I don't want

00:56:16   tell anyone how to live their life, Jason. But I feel like if you have assaulted another

00:56:20   human being over their phone choice, maybe you should think about things.

00:56:23   Reconsider your life. Although I will say that story says alcohol is said to have fueled

00:56:28   the escalation.

00:56:29   Yeah. Oh, shockingly so.

00:56:31   Less than smartphone dispute. Yeah. Yeah. I'm shocked that that might be the case.

00:56:37   It's crazy.

00:56:38   You don't say that is taking it a little bit far.

00:56:39   And you want people to buy beer on the internet. Come on.

00:56:42   Well, yeah, I don't want the internet vending the beer directly to them.

00:56:46   I just, you know.

00:56:47   There you go.

00:56:48   So, listener Jimmy, our friend Jimmy, Upgradient Jimmy perhaps.

00:56:53   Perhaps.

00:56:54   I don't think I'm equipped to bless somebody as an Upgradient.

00:56:57   People can be an Upgradient if they want.

00:56:59   I have to make something up if they don't identify themselves as an Upgradient or a listener.

00:57:04   Yeah.

00:57:05   So, he asks, "Would it make sense for Apple to make an all-inclusive subscription?

00:57:10   unlimited iCloud storage, beat streaming, iTunes match, etc. So right now, you buy

00:57:16   iCloud space that can take care of your photos. But if you buy iTunes match, it's

00:57:20   a separate charge. iTunes matches what 20, 30 bucks a year. Beat streaming at some

00:57:26   point is going to be, you know, more into the Apple fold. Right now it's a separate

00:57:31   separate thing. So Jimmy's asking, does it make sense to just have, "Hey, I want to

00:57:36   pay for just Apple cloud services, checks and boxes, I get what I want, I get one bill.

00:57:42   Sounds great.

00:57:43   Yeah, it's a nice idea.

00:57:44   This is like Amazon Prime, like Apple Prime.

00:57:47   I think it's a great idea.

00:57:48   I do get frustrated by the fact that I've got an iCloud subscription that renews at

00:57:52   a different time than the iTunes in the cloud subscription, iTunes match subscription, and

00:57:56   the Beats subscription.

00:57:57   I have all of those.

00:57:59   They all renew separately.

00:58:00   I think it would be great if Apple offered something like Amazon Prime where there was

00:58:04   an all-in Apple thing. And this is Apple we're talking about. Apple wants people in their

00:58:08   ecosystem. It seems to make sense to me to offer people a fully commit to Apple services

00:58:15   kind of thing, and offer a la carte, too. So I think it's a good idea. I imagine that

00:58:21   Eddie Q. and company have talked about this, but it makes sense to me. I would much rather

00:58:26   just write them one check, put one auto renew on my credit card, and walk away and not worry

00:58:31   about it instead of the whole like how much and adjusting their storage options offering

00:58:37   an unlimited tier or a very very high storage tier I think would be great too as a part

00:58:42   of that because that's one of those places and we talked about Apple retail customer

00:58:47   experience that's one of the places where I feel kind of nickeled and dimed by Apple

00:58:50   is in the storage like they have all these little tiers and they're way more expensive

00:58:54   than their competitors and it just feels very un-Apple to do that and I'm not saying Apple

00:58:59   shouldn't charge people. I'm just saying the way they do it where it's like, well, you

00:59:02   get five for free and then you can upgrade to 10 or 20. It seems very bureaucratic. It

00:59:06   seems very Microsoft-y. It does not seem like... and the way their competitors are going is

00:59:12   very simple. Like Dropbox literally now has you get it for free or you pay. And that's

00:59:16   it. There are two tiers. There's a terabyte or there's the free tier. That's it. That's

00:59:21   the whole thing. So, yeah, that's a great idea, Jimmy. Million, million. As I like to

00:59:27   that's a million dollar idea.

00:59:29   (laughs)

00:59:30   - He's gonna get a--

00:59:31   - It's gonna cost a million dollars, unfortunately.

00:59:33   Sorry about that.

00:59:34   - Well, listener Jimmy can maybe get some sort of percentage

00:59:37   right off the top from Apple.

00:59:39   I think that's only fair.

00:59:40   - Yeah, it's like an affiliate revenue thing for the idea.

00:59:42   - Exactly.

00:59:43   - Yeah, all future Apple Prime accounts

00:59:45   will be an affiliate deal for Jimmy.

00:59:48   - Yeah, I do agree that the Nook-Lund diming

00:59:50   definitely feels real.

00:59:51   And what's nice in Yosemite, I think in Mavericks as well,

00:59:55   In the iCloud preference pane, you

00:59:58   can adjust your billing right there.

01:00:00   But for anything iTunes, you have to go into iTunes,

01:00:02   go into your account, you have to authenticate like three

01:00:05   times.

01:00:06   And your app subscriptions, like if you have Evernote Premium

01:00:09   or something that comes out once a year every month

01:00:11   or something, that's all in there too.

01:00:14   I would like just sort of a dashboard of my accounts

01:00:17   and have it all in one place.

01:00:21   I think there's room for improvement there.

01:00:23   I think they'll get there.

01:00:24   Apple, surely someone at Apple knows that that's sort of a janky experience and Apple

01:00:28   doesn't really like janky experiences, so I think they'll come around.

01:00:32   - Yeah, I hope so. I think some of it too is that it's different parts of the company.

01:00:37   And Beats obviously was completely not part of the company, but I think there's different

01:00:40   parts and they're out of sync and somebody needs to come in and say, "Okay, here's our

01:00:44   plan." You know, presumably there's somebody in charge, like a revenue person who's in

01:00:48   charge of all of this saying, "We need to do a better job of marketing our offerings

01:00:53   and put something together that would be better.

01:00:55   That's a good kind of marketing, by the way,

01:00:57   is when they're like, how do we bring things to market

01:00:59   in a way that people will understand you need those people?

01:01:03   Anyway, Lister Kevin had a comment, a really good question.

01:01:08   - He did, so Lister Kevin says,

01:01:11   and I'm gonna use his pronunciation.

01:01:13   - Okay.

01:01:14   - So Kevin asks, will we ever see an OSXi

01:01:19   or is OS X the permanent/final Mac OS?

01:01:23   - So I would probably think they would never pronounce

01:01:26   it O-S-X-I because they don't pronounce it O-S-X

01:01:29   except if you're listening to the audiobook

01:01:30   of "Becoming Steve Jobs," in which case they do.

01:01:33   (laughing)

01:01:35   But this is the constant OS 11 question,

01:01:37   which is, is OS X the final,

01:01:39   are we gonna truly have OS X?

01:01:41   We already have 10.10, right?

01:01:43   Is there gonna be 10.11, do they change it?

01:01:45   And what I would say is,

01:01:47   it's easy to get hung up on the numbering thing

01:01:48   'cause it came from nine to 10,

01:01:50   but it was always a marketing term.

01:01:52   It was always the Roman numeral, like, and the big X.

01:01:55   It was always marketing and not, the number didn't matter,

01:01:58   which is why it's 10.10 now.

01:02:00   So I don't think, I don't think, personally,

01:02:03   there will ever be an OS 11.

01:02:05   I don't think that's gonna happen.

01:02:06   Also, keep in mind, iOS, in a couple of years,

01:02:09   is gonna be iOS 10, which is also gonna be weird.

01:02:12   So here's my theory.

01:02:15   I'm gonna throw out a theory here.

01:02:17   I think OS X, first off, could just stay as the Mac OS name forever until there's no Mac

01:02:23   anymore, until they do a huge operating system shift in 10 years.

01:02:30   Somebody who's not John Saracusa will have to write "Copeland 2040."

01:02:36   But so here's my theory.

01:02:37   I think OS X is an old name.

01:02:41   It doesn't have the resonance that it used to, and we're about to have a collision with

01:02:45   iOS.

01:02:46   I'm just going to throw it out there, just a wacky idea. I think at some point soon in

01:02:51   the next couple of years, Apple is going to start referring to OS X as Mac OS again, and

01:02:57   we'll have Mac OS and iOS. And at that point you might have Mac OS version 11.0, Mavericks,

01:03:05   or whatever, you know, Big Sur, Arcadia.

01:03:07   Yeah, so a couple things come to mind. A, OS 9 wasn't going to be a thing. If you go

01:03:14   go back, like, they were gonna do a bunch of releases of OS 8, and they were gonna go

01:03:18   to OS 10, OS 9, and I was like, "Oh, we need a thing," which is really my favorite part

01:03:22   of that.

01:03:23   - OS 8 wasn't even gonna be a thing.

01:03:24   OS 8 was just gonna be 7.7 or something until Steve Jobs figured out that's how he could

01:03:28   get the clones out, was to say, "Oh, your license is only for system 7.

01:03:32   This is OS 8.

01:03:33   Goodbye."

01:03:34   - I'm just gonna change the number.

01:03:35   - Yeah, and then 9, 9 came actually after 10, which is the other funny thing, is that

01:03:39   was already out and they did 9 as the bridge release for 10 and 10 ran 9 in

01:03:44   classic and uh yeah so it's all weird. It's weird so there's that and

01:03:48   really that was my favorite part of Apple people mocking Windows from going

01:03:51   Windows from Windows 8 to Windows 10 because Apple did basically the same

01:03:55   thing but but also too if you look at the way Apple markets them starting with

01:04:01   really starting with line and mountain line but especially now you don't see

01:04:06   Mac OS X 10.10 written out or referenced very much by Apple.

01:04:10   The marketing label is Mac OS X Yosemite.

01:04:15   - It's not even Mac, it's OS X Yosemite.

01:04:16   - OS X Yosemite, and so they've already

01:04:19   adjusted course a little bit.

01:04:21   Back in Jaguar, Panther, Tiger, it was very heavy.

01:04:24   This is Mac OS X 10.3.

01:04:26   That's what it was called, that's what Apple called it.

01:04:29   - And then you got into the 10-point whatever name

01:04:33   where they kind of mixed them together.

01:04:35   they've pushed toward the Yosemite Mavericks kind of thing, which is why one thing they

01:04:41   could do is continue to call it seriously. They could consider calling it OS X and rev

01:04:47   it to version 11 and nobody would care, except nerds who would be like, "Well, actually,

01:04:53   10.10 is not a possibility because it's a decimal system and those people are already

01:04:57   dead because Yosemite is 10.10."

01:05:00   - Yeah, so I do think they're gonna have to do something.

01:05:04   - I think iOS 10 is a problem.

01:05:08   I think you don't want iOS 10.

01:05:09   So that's when things get weird.

01:05:12   So I would, for me that would be,

01:05:15   I don't see how the 10 is important branding anymore.

01:05:18   You know, you've got Mac, everything is Mac now.

01:05:21   There's Mac and there's iPhone and iPad.

01:05:24   So iOS probably sticks around

01:05:26   'cause iPhone and iPad are products.

01:05:28   They all have the I in front of them,

01:05:29   No apples moving away from the eye, they all have them.

01:05:32   So OS X, could it just be Mac OS?

01:05:35   So then you've got Mac OS 11 and iOS 9, maybe?

01:05:40   - It's hard to say.

01:05:41   - I don't know.

01:05:42   - It's, I'm sure there are people who this keeps up

01:05:46   in Cupertino, realizing they're in some sort of

01:05:48   weird collision course with names.

01:05:50   - Yeah, yeah, I mean this is just like when they

01:05:52   introduced the new iPad that one time

01:05:54   and they didn't want to give it a number

01:05:55   because they were like making arguments

01:05:57   that we should just always call it the iPad

01:05:58   realized yeah that's not gonna. Also they keep old versions around now so they

01:06:03   need to have the numbers so that they can explain no no this is the iPad Air 2.

01:06:06   iPad Air also available iPad Air 2. Faster. So we'll see we'll see but I I am

01:06:14   coming around to the crazy theory posited here that maybe OS X as a brand

01:06:20   will get transmogrified into something more like Mac OS again like in the old

01:06:24   days because you know OS X was intended as a reassuring transition from previous

01:06:29   Mac OS generations and an exciting step into the future but that was a long, we

01:06:34   talked about John's reviews, that was 15 years ago man, that was a long time ago.

01:06:39   It's just the Mac now. What differentiates OS X is not the 10, it's the Mac.

01:06:42   This is the operating system that the Mac runs, so call it that.

01:06:45   Yeah, so we'll see. We'll follow up in three to six years.

01:06:51   Yeah, I'll check back right here. Yeah, this is the beauty of making really

01:06:53   long-term predictions is no one remembers them so if you're wrong it's

01:06:56   fine yeah so check back that'll be on upgrade number 190 we'll check back then

01:07:04   yeah check listen to mark writes in says regarding Apple watch accessibility

01:07:08   could a blind person use one and have the tactic engine tap out the time it's

01:07:14   a it's interesting there's a there's an accessibility page up that that is this

01:07:17   just came up this weekend or pretty recently last week yeah yeah it's a

01:07:21   recent edition about accessibility. Apple's talking about accessibility on

01:07:24   Apple Watch now. Which is great and before we dive into it, I definitely

01:07:30   love that this is such a big point of concern for Apple where so many

01:07:35   companies just don't do anything about it. So it always makes me happy to

01:07:40   discuss and see what Apple's up to in this area. And the watch, you know,

01:07:44   it's little, right? Like, I would imagine a hard accessibility thing

01:07:50   to solve, but looking at this webpage, I don't see this particular suggestion listed, but

01:07:56   there's a lot of stuff on here that should make this easier to use for people with both

01:08:00   vision and hearing issues going on.

01:08:05   Yeah, I mean, we've talked about the idea that the walking instructions being able to

01:08:11   tell you to turn left and right and things like that.

01:08:13   I imagine this is going to be early days.

01:08:15   It's great that they've got an accessibility story now.

01:08:17   I think the idea of tapping the time and things like that is a really great idea too.

01:08:21   I think this will get better.

01:08:23   I think between voiceover, because even if you're blind, the watch is a speaker on your

01:08:29   wrist attached to iPhone apps so it can talk to you and you have a touch surface that you

01:08:36   can use to navigate a little bit.

01:08:39   There are going to be some really great applications for that down the line.

01:08:42   It's probably going to be rudimentary to start, but I do think there's a lot of potential

01:08:49   here, and Apple does care about this.

01:08:50   Apple knows that this is one of those areas where it can actually lead, and it fits, as

01:08:54   we've talked about on Upgrade before, it fits with how Apple sees itself, which is as a

01:08:59   force for good, and that's not just marketing.

01:09:01   I think that's one of their things that they ask themselves is, "How can we make this product

01:09:07   that we're doing, how can our presence be a force for good and change in the world?"

01:09:11   So I think there'll be more there, but it's a start, and the fact that there's a page

01:09:16   about it I think is encouraging too.

01:09:19   Apple's not going to even know.

01:09:20   I think as with so much with the watch, it's going to get out in the market, and then everybody,

01:09:25   including Apple, is going to learn a whole lot about what to do.

01:09:28   I would not be surprised if the Apple Watch software changes dramatically over the first

01:09:32   year just because, in the same hardware, just because they're going to be learning things

01:09:37   and realize, "Oh, nobody uses this," and, "Oh, what a great idea that we didn't implement."

01:09:41   It would just not surprise me if they change a lot in that first year, because they're

01:09:44   going to learn so much.

01:09:45   Yeah, I mean, the iPhone OS definitely did that.

01:09:48   And what's nice, you know, now iOS, those accessibility tools are really rich.

01:09:52   And as well on the Mac, you know, there's a lot of stuff and, you know, the things like

01:09:58   reducing transparency, like not just for accessibility purpose, but I use that because I don't like,

01:10:03   I don't care for the transparency and it makes, you know, it makes weird little edge cases

01:10:07   happen.

01:10:08   It's not just for people who necessarily need it, which is nice.

01:10:12   It gives you some other options if you don't care for something.

01:10:14   But yeah, I totally agree.

01:10:16   I think watchOS is going to have some pretty significant iteration.

01:10:19   So you know, they did it on the iPhone, right?

01:10:22   The original iPhone did very few things and the App Store was out the next year on the

01:10:26   same hardware and all of a sudden your phone could do a billion things.

01:10:29   And even though this is launching with watch kit and native apps are coming at some point,

01:10:35   You know, if you look back at those original, you know, 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 iPhone OS releases,

01:10:42   some pretty significant changes, I think this will just follow in those footsteps.

01:10:46   I agree.

01:10:47   We have one last bit of listener feedback.

01:10:51   Now, again, there is an Ask Upgrade element to this, which is listener Eric sent us a

01:10:56   tweet from astronaut Sam Cristoforetti on Twitter.

01:11:01   She posted from the International Space Station a tweet pointing at the Dragon capsule which

01:11:06   was coming to load up the station.

01:11:09   And there's coffee in that nebula, I mean that Dragon.

01:11:12   So Italian, and as Lister Eric points out, the Dragon spacecraft was carrying an espresso

01:11:18   machine designed for zero gravity, which is kind of amazing, and I can see why an Italian

01:11:23   astronaut would want that.

01:11:25   But Lister Eric's question is, is this the first Star Trek uniform in space?

01:11:28   'cause she appears to be wearing, she is wearing,

01:11:30   essentially a Star Trek Voyager uniform,

01:11:33   which I noticed and I thought, that is one of them,

01:11:35   and it's got a pin that's not like a,

01:11:37   it's not the Star Trek Comm badge,

01:11:39   but it's something in that spot,

01:11:40   and it just made me laugh, because that's awesome,

01:11:44   that there is somebody wearing a Star Trek uniform

01:11:46   in outer space, that is really funny.

01:11:47   And you know what, she wants her coffee, dammit.

01:11:50   - Yeah, I mean, I would think, you know,

01:11:52   I've read, I'm a NASA nerd, I've read a lot about, like,

01:11:55   life on the space station, and coffee seems like

01:11:58   pretty central part of it. So I know, you know, our, our Italian co host on connected

01:12:05   is would be very happy to see that this is now on now we can send Federico into space.

01:12:11   Now there's zero gravity espresso. This was the only thing holding it back really this

01:12:15   is it get get to get to the Cosmodrome. Yeah, iPads work iPads work on the space station.

01:12:20   So that's right. You can have espresso he can do his thing. I think he could he could

01:12:25   that is the most mobile workstation ever. He could just bring his iPad, he could do

01:12:29   Max Stories from space. All he needs is an iPad, an internet connection, which they sort

01:12:34   of have, and Espresso. I think this is a new, exciting direction for Max Stories. I suspect

01:12:41   that Federico won't be wearing a Star Trek uniform, though. Unfortunately. Probably not.

01:12:47   But thank you, listener Eric. I don't know if that's the first Star Trek uniform in space,

01:12:50   but that was a pretty great tweet on so many different levels, so I'm glad that you

01:12:55   you send it in. Well, Steven, I think we're at the end. I think we did it. I think we

01:13:02   managed to do a show without Myke.

01:13:04   Steven: I think so. I think we're both still here.

01:13:06   Steve McLaughlin Yeah, it seems so. Nobody died. That's my

01:13:09   number one thing with podcasts. Did anybody die during the podcast? No.

01:13:12   Steven: Do many people die on podcasts with you?

01:13:14   Steve McLaughlin I don't like to talk about it. It's just

01:13:17   my baseline. It hasn't happened. Okay, it hasn't happened yet that people have died.

01:13:22   But I figure if nobody dies, then it's probably a pretty good show.

01:13:25   Yeah, I've listened to some of your Star Wars episodes.

01:13:27   It's amazing no one has just blown a blood vessel.

01:13:29   Oh, that's true.

01:13:30   I think that's the closest we've come is, you know, "John, John, are you out there?"

01:13:34   You know?

01:13:35   Yeah, just gurgling on the floor.

01:13:37   He's on the floor.

01:13:38   He's like, "I just need to gather myself for a moment."

01:13:40   Yeah, exactly.

01:13:41   Well, this was a lot of fun.

01:13:43   We should-- we've got-- Dan Morin is really jealous.

01:13:46   He's like, "When do I get to guest host Upgrade?"

01:13:48   and it's like I do talk to him every week on on on another show on clockwise

01:13:52   but but it's fun to have it's fun to have special guest stars so I'm glad you

01:13:57   could do it while Myke is busy schlepping around pens in Atlanta yeah

01:14:01   well thanks for having me a lot of fun and we should we should not only thank

01:14:05   each other we should thank our three sponsors before we go we should sure

01:14:10   igloo mail route and go to meeting go check them out there's links in the show

01:14:13   notes all of the links we have spoken about today you can find in your

01:14:17   podcast app of choice or in any web browser you might find yourself sitting in front of

01:14:22   at relay.fm/upgrade/33.

01:14:26   Very nice. You podcast app of choice. You got it in there. It's like you listen to the

01:14:29   show. That's nice.

01:14:30   It's true. I do every week.

01:14:32   Have you seen this as Spinal Tap?

01:14:35   A long time ago and only once.

01:14:37   That's fine. That's that's...

01:14:39   It was a thousand percent time more than Myke.

01:14:42   So that's right.

01:14:44   Now you guys are equal.

01:14:45   He just reached you last week.

01:14:46   So all right.

01:14:47   Well, this was great.

01:14:48   Thanks to everybody out there for listening to Upgrade.

01:14:51   And Myke will be back next week.

01:14:52   Steven, thanks for being the guest host.

01:14:54   And we'll see you next week, everybody.

01:14:57   Adios.

01:14:58   (upbeat music)

01:15:00   [Music]