0:00:00*BEEP*
0:00:00[Music]
0:00:07from relay FM this is upgrade episode number 31 today show is brought to you
0:00:14by igloo and smile with PDF pen scan plus this is an extra special episode
0:00:20today we have a second episode in the week you guys thought that we wouldn't
0:00:23be back till next week to you have me but here I am I'm back from my holiday
0:00:27and talking to mr. Jason snail hi Jason so hi Myke welcome back it was very
0:00:33funny when I was listening to last week's episode and you're like oh Myke
0:00:36be back next week and I'm like little do they know. Well did you see at the end of the uh and
0:00:41that was that wasn't last week's episode that was this week's episode we just have another one um
0:00:46at the end I said we'll be back next week and then I said we'll see you soon. That was foreshadowing
0:00:53because I didn't want to say we'll see you next week because I knew we would actually be back
0:00:56before then and so here we are. Here we are. So uh the reason we're doing this today is because
0:01:03today the review embargo lifted for the new 12-inch MacBook. You have one of them and
0:01:10you've been testing it out for a couple of weeks and are you happy to say that you like
0:01:14it?
0:01:15It's not a couple of weeks. I actually got home from my very long European journey on
0:01:20Friday and Saturday morning I got it. I've only had it less than a week. I could have
0:01:29have probably gotten it I think the previous Tuesday was when they were
0:01:31gonna ship them out and I told them that I was in Ireland and that they should
0:01:35they said we'll just ship it to have it arrive when you get home so that's so
0:01:40how many days have you actually had it in your person this is day six so five
0:01:45five days covering the writing of the review that I had it right and how long
0:01:51so you would have had it for like maybe another four or five yeah I would have
0:01:56- I would have had it for another four.
0:01:58Yeah, 'cause the embargo was a Thursday
0:02:00and they were gonna ship it out on Tuesday.
0:02:01So, you know, really I would have had it for an extra,
0:02:04yeah, extra three or four days.
0:02:06- Okay.
0:02:07- But I was having too much fun in Ireland,
0:02:09so that didn't happen.
0:02:11I asked them if they could send it to Ireland
0:02:13and they said no, so it's fine, fair enough.
0:02:16- Hey, it's worth the go.
0:02:17- Yeah.
0:02:18- So I have two very quick pieces of follow up
0:02:21on last week's episode.
0:02:22- You mean this week's episode?
0:02:24- Oh, the last episode.
0:02:25- Yes.
0:02:2630, the Syracuse episode. Yeah, I got home a couple of hours ago. I'm kind of all over
0:02:32the place. I don't know what day of the week it is. I haven't known what day of the week
0:02:35it is for two weeks. It feels like Monday though, doesn't it? Because we're talking.
0:02:38It feels like Monday now, and also I just recorded with Casey, so I don't know where
0:02:41I am. I'm recording Connected later. I don't know what's going on. I know what that's like.
0:02:46That was my weekend. Very confusing. I had no idea when I was recording with Casey. So
0:02:52I have two sentences, that's all I have.
0:02:57One, I thought that the ad reads were great
0:02:59and you did a good job because you said
0:03:00you thought they were bad and I thought they were very good.
0:03:02- It was just weird.
0:03:04You were in charge of this show.
0:03:06This is the one podcast I do that I'm not in charge of.
0:03:09And I had to be in charge of it, it was very strange.
0:03:12- And the other thing is, I would like to issue
0:03:15an open challenge to John Siracusa
0:03:16to pull my beard at WWDC.
0:03:18- To prove that you're the real Myke
0:03:21or the, the, and not the clone.
0:03:23- The twin mic.
0:03:24I was on a plane doing that thing
0:03:27where you're like shaking of laughter
0:03:29and people think you're crazy.
0:03:30- I know that thing.
0:03:32- That was what was happening to me.
0:03:34- Nice.
0:03:36- So yeah, really great episode.
0:03:37It was nice to hear you two talking together
0:03:39and I'm very excited for Robot or Not.
0:03:42- Yes, we're laying the foundations.
0:03:45- I'm way more excited than John is, I think about that.
0:03:48- We all are.
0:03:50But he's warming up to it.
0:03:53So we'll move this robot around.
0:03:55- He was being very, very protective.
0:03:57- Yeah.
0:03:58- He wouldn't let you spoil it.
0:03:59- I think that was telling that he thought
0:04:01I was gonna ruin it by talking about it too far in advance.
0:04:04So that's good.
0:04:05Yeah, that was good.
0:04:06I should say, we also got a lot of follow up from people.
0:04:08We were talking about how when one of my complaints
0:04:12about one section of the "Becoming Steve Jobs" book
0:04:14is they talk about the iPhone being a,
0:04:17the first iPhone being a disappointment
0:04:19because it didn't run apps, which fits into their whole narrative
0:04:22about how the App Store was this wonderful thing,
0:04:25which it was, but, you know,
0:04:26I thought people really loved the iPhone
0:04:28and were obsessed with the iPhone.
0:04:30It was a huge talking point.
0:04:31Everybody was talking about they wanted one
0:04:33and could they get one, and I remember that from the time,
0:04:37and it doesn't really fit with their idea that,
0:04:38oh, it doesn't have third-party apps,
0:04:40so we're not excited about it.
0:04:41I think that's a bogus claim.
0:04:43And we said during that, like --
0:04:46because they said it doesn't run powerful spreadsheets,
0:04:48and John and I were both laughing about like who wanted powerful spreadsheets on their phones back then.
0:04:53And we heard from everybody who was using Windows Mobile at the time that had like a mobile version of Excel saying,
0:04:59well, actually, I was running powerful spreadsheets on my phone, which if we said no phones ran spreadsheets in 2007,
0:05:10I will apologize for that. But I think you're missing the point.
0:05:13The point is, I think regular people did not think of the iPhone and think,
0:05:18That is a device that I would like to run a powerful spreadsheet on, or indeed, really,
0:05:23third-party apps.
0:05:24I think the iPhone was quite a phenomenon in the first generation before the App Store
0:05:29came out.
0:05:30That was what we were saying.
0:05:31I think that the book is wrong in saying that it was a disappointment.
0:05:36It was a disappointment to super tech nerds and to developers that they couldn't develop
0:05:40for it right out of the box.
0:05:42But I remember everybody I knew asking me about the iPhone when it was coming out.
0:05:47were really excited about it. And so to say that the iPhone's first, like the
0:05:52iPod, because it didn't run on PCs, the first generation, although we all thought
0:05:57it was pretty amazing, it was not in the public consciousness. The iPhone was in
0:06:00the public consciousness from the beginning and if your book claims that
0:06:04it was kind of a swing and the miss and it wasn't until the App Store that the
0:06:07iPhone caught fire, I think your book is wrong. So yeah I got to that part today.
0:06:13like I've just gotten to that bit in the book and I was sitting on the plane
0:06:18listening to it and like what are you talking about? Where did this
0:06:22information come from? Well and you've been doing with Behind the App I mean
0:06:26there's enthusiasm that developers had for it there's no doubt and we there
0:06:30were several people I remember in the days afterward that I was on a podcast
0:06:34with John Gruber and Merlin Mann where we we basically said there's gonna be an
0:06:38app store in a year we were already talking about it's like it'll be next
0:06:41year and it'll be curated and that's exactly what happened.
0:06:45Where these guys, yeah, like I said, I feel like they're—the problem I have with the
0:06:49book, because I don't dislike the book like John disliked the first 10% of the book.
0:06:55Let's keep that in mind.
0:06:56I don't feel as negatively about it, but I do have—at several points I see this narrative
0:07:02they're trying to build and I say, "No, that's not real.
0:07:04That didn't actually happen."
0:07:05And that doesn't make me super enthusiastic about the other parts of the book that I don't
0:07:10know the facts of because I have to take them at their word. And I get that they're trying
0:07:15to tell a certain kind of story, but things that in it do not align with my recollection
0:07:21of how the world was then. But anyway, the point is, if you used... I heard from somebody
0:07:26who said they used a BlackBerry because they needed to do SSH and the first iPhone couldn't
0:07:30do SSH connection. Okay, fair enough. And if you wanted to use Excel, you could do that
0:07:35on Windows Mobile. Fair enough. I will grant you that, but that's sort of not... What's
0:07:40not our larger point. That's all. That's all I wanted to say. So that was that was an interesting
0:07:43trend that I heard that we were being dismissive of of apps generally not speaking of particular
0:07:49applications with very technical people but sort of like the the mass of enthusiastic
0:07:55regular people who were really excited about the iPhone even though it didn't run any apps
0:08:01other than the ones that were stock.
0:08:03Yeah, I was dumbfounded. Because you know you're saying about how a lot of it, and I
0:08:10agree with you, we were talking about it last week, that a lot of the book comes from the
0:08:16place of the business writer. And we were talking about the irrelevancy in Ewan Chan's
0:08:20book about that again on this week's episode. I'm so confused.
0:08:24Episode 30.
0:08:25episode 30. episode 30, we'll go with that. Syracuse at times. and I get that they may
0:08:33be a bit blinded by that but even from a business standpoint the iFilm was an incredible success.
0:08:40I don't understand who said it was a bad thing. I don't know. I think that's actually of everything
0:08:51that I've read that was the thing where I was like you guys have got that so wrong and
0:08:55I don't know who proofread this for you. I don't know who fact-checked this for you because
0:09:00they missed this. Really, I was very, very surprised by that bit.
0:09:06So Jason, I have a couple of questions for you in regards to the review of two parts.
0:09:10I want to get into those in a moment. But before we do that, let's take a break to thank
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0:11:04So Mr Jason Snell.
0:11:06Yes, Mr iMichael.
0:11:08You have two parts of your review.
0:11:11this on Macworld and one lives in Six Colors this time yeah? Yeah I so Macworld said
0:11:17they wanted me to write the review and I don't work for them anymore so they have
0:11:21to pay me to write it which is fine because I do freelance work now and I
0:11:25think me writing me writing Macworld Mac reviews is something I'm I know how to
0:11:31do that so I was happy to do that and if they hadn't wanted me to I would have
0:11:35written it on Six Colors but they were they wanted me to do the kind of full-on
0:11:39thing for them. So I did, and then as with the iPhone actually last fall, which is for
0:11:45some different reasons, as I was leaving Macworld, I did a, you know, I did sort of like bonus
0:11:50track material on Six Colors with sort of, which we used to do that sort of like both
0:11:56of those stories on Macworld back in the day. So that seemed to be a way for me to put some
0:12:00MacBook material on Six Colors and link to my review at Macworld.
0:12:05I like it.
0:12:06Well, I mean, it's good because you're a six colors reader, especially, you kind of get
0:12:09everything because you see the link to the main review and then you get your extra part
0:12:14as well, which is good.
0:12:16Yeah, yeah.
0:12:17And that lets me, I wrote that, I mean, I literally wrote them in order.
0:12:20I turned in my 3500 word review to Susie at Macworld at noon yesterday.
0:12:25And then in the afternoon, I wrote the notebook, which is like all the stuff I couldn't fit
0:12:29in and maybe a little more personal take on some of the things that I was in there.
0:12:34I got to work through some of my feelings about the keyboard.
0:12:38I got to talk a little bit more about the display,
0:12:42which is Apple made some interesting decisions
0:12:44with the display.
0:12:46And yeah, so that was the idea there.
0:12:49I imagine I will write some reviews for Macworld
0:12:53as long as they want to do it,
0:12:54and if the timing and the pay works, then that'll be great.
0:12:57And other stuff I'll just review on Six Colors,
0:13:00and that's fine, too.
0:13:01And you know, like I said, people will notice I've written stuff in a bunch of different
0:13:06places. I am definitely trying to have freelance be part of what I do in addition to Six Colors
0:13:10and the podcast stuff. It's all part of a kind of a whole of me trying to figure out
0:13:14the best way to get to support my family and remain independent, which is what I'm working
0:13:19at here, like you are.
0:13:20Yeah, and you need to spread the Jason Snow message far and wide, you know?
0:13:25Well, I think it's good for Six Colors for me to appear, especially Macworld readers
0:13:29who know me but might not know that I am still doing stuff, that I can provide MacWorld readers
0:13:34with the review they expect, and that's good. And then also, you know, they can say, "Oh
0:13:40yeah, that guy, what's he doing now?" And I think that's good for me.
0:13:43Right, so we have been asking our listeners to provide—our "upgradients," as you may
0:13:49say—to provide their questions via the Ask Upgrade, but I've read through both pieces
0:13:53and I have some questions and comments of my own, if that's okay.
0:13:56Sure. So I kind of want to start off with a big one and maybe this will help lead into
0:14:03some overall feelings about how you feel about the new MacBook. You got the space grey one,
0:14:09that's right? Yeah. If you were going to design this machine, if Apple came to you today and
0:14:14gave you the power to change stuff about this machine, what would you change? And this is
0:14:20considering your needs first and then maybe also secondarily considering the needs of
0:14:25average consumer. You can design two machines if you want to.
0:14:29Ah...
0:14:32You had to start with the most, like, outlandish
0:14:36question. Okay, so let me get this straight. So I can make any change I want
0:14:41for me, and then I can make any change I want for everyone else?
0:14:44Yeah, so because my feeling about this is, like, I think, we're talking about the
0:14:48keyboard a bit more, but I think that maybe you would change
0:14:51that for you, but wouldn't necessarily need to change it for the world.
0:14:55Yeah, well, wow. The keyboard, for me, the keyboard is the deal-breaker, and I'm not
0:15:05sure it's an actual deal-breaker or whether it's just the thing that I like the least
0:15:10about it, but that keyboard is not great. And it's interesting because talking to Apple,
0:15:20I get the sense that, you know, sometimes you have your conversations with people at
0:15:25Apple about products and they're like, they're hitting all the like, this is revolutionary
0:15:28and it's going to be, it's everybody's going to love it.
0:15:31And this is the way things are going to be in the future.
0:15:33I didn't get that sense from them about the keyboard.
0:15:36It felt to me like they were acknowledging, look, we know that the reduced travel, you
0:15:40know, the keys physically just don't move very much up and down.
0:15:43We know that that's a problem.
0:15:46So we've engineered a bunch of other things to try and offset it as much as we can.
0:15:50can't mitigate it. So they've got the new the little butterfly mechanism and
0:15:54they've got the the stainless steel things that it's they're hitting on and
0:16:00it sort of makes it a little kind of clicky. It's got the the wider keys,
0:16:06they're more stable, they're all these things that they're trying to do all of
0:16:09which is true and I think actually does improve the feel but in the end it still
0:16:16doesn't have very much key travel and feels all, you know, like I said at the
0:16:21time when when I went to the event, it's like halfway between a real keyboard and
0:16:25it like typing on an iPad. There's more movement than the iPad where there's
0:16:29physically nothing. You're just hitting glass. But not a lot more. It's
0:16:33pretty dramatic. I think it's less than half of the movement of the standard
0:16:37Apple keyboard. So I would change that because when I think about buying one of
0:16:40these down the road here, that's the one that I'm like, "Would I really want that
0:16:45to be the thing that I was doing all my typing on. Would I write, you know, hundreds of thousands
0:16:50of words on that keyboard? And I was able to type. I went to typewracer.com, which is
0:16:55my choice for testing my typing speed, and I was able to do 120 words per minute on it.
0:17:00So you know, it was it was perfectly fine in terms of speed, but I just don't like the
0:17:04feel of it. And I don't feel like I'm a giant keyboard nerd like John Gruber and some other
0:17:10people who are like super obsessive about keyboards in a way that I'm not. I actually
0:17:14like the current Apple keyboard design, but the MacBook keyboard just doesn't work for
0:17:19me. You know, you get used to it, but I didn't like it. So I think that would be what I would
0:17:25change first off is find a way to make a computer that's roughly this thin and light, but have
0:17:30a better keyboard, have more movement in the keyboard. Maybe it's a magical thing that,
0:17:35you know, when the computer's closed, the keys are all nestled snugly, and then when
0:17:41you open it up, they pop out to reveal Mork travel. I don't know. I mean, this is why
0:17:46they engineered it the way they did, and they knew it was going to be a compromise, but
0:17:50I don't love it. So that would be the thing I would change. For everybody else, I mean,
0:17:54obviously I would say you need a second USB port, and that would make things easier, or
0:18:04an old-style USB port, or a Thunderbolt port, or something like that, just because it would
0:18:08be more flexible that way. I think a second USB-C port even would be good enough. I would
0:18:13also probably put an adapter in the box. But, you know, that would be if I had like magic
0:18:20superpowers and there was no like economic reality and technical reality, which is, it
0:18:26is the product that it is. But, you know, that would be keyboard for me, dealing with
0:18:31the port issue maybe for everyone else.
0:18:34So that question and my next question, they're like, the reason I'm asking these weird questions
0:18:39is because I want to try and give a sense to people for how you feel about the machine
0:18:43without rehashing the review, you know?
0:18:45So my next question is, you talk about, and I know you speak, you are one of the people
0:18:49that speak very fondly of the 12-inch power book.
0:18:54What made you love the 12-inch power book that's missing from this MacBook?
0:18:59Because in theory, this is a spiritual successor to that machine.
0:19:03And this is the machine that, you know, everybody wanted that machine forever, right?
0:19:06They wanted the 12-inch PowerBook, and they kind of got it with the 11-inch MacBook Air,
0:19:11but just still only did that little thing.
0:19:13And I assume that when Apple brought this out on stage, many people were like, "That's
0:19:17it.
0:19:18They've given me the 12-inch PowerBook again."
0:19:21What they did with the 12-inch PowerBook was they said, "This is a computer that's defined
0:19:27by the width of the keyboard, and we want to make it as narrow as possible, so we'll
0:19:30make it exactly the width of the keyboard."
0:19:32The MacBook is kind of like that, although there's a little bit more.
0:19:35The 12-inch PowerBook is still the narrowest Mac laptop ever.
0:19:40There's a little more space on this than there was on the sides, and it's a slightly wider
0:19:45keyboard, I believe, than the standard Apple keyboard.
0:19:48Just slightly, but it spreads slightly wider.
0:19:52I think the 11-inch was a perfectly fine, you know, spiritual successor to the 12-inch
0:19:59PowerBook as a, you know, making this as little as possible is the goal. As light and thin
0:20:05and small as possible is the goal. And the 11-inch air feels like that, and certainly
0:20:11this MacBook feels like that too. You know, I think the, I don't even know what to say
0:20:17beyond that. I think the 12-inch PowerBook was more of a, it wasn't entirely like fully
0:20:22featured, but you know, it had lots of ports and stuff. It was from an era where you needed
0:20:26to have all of the ports.
0:20:28And again, the one port,
0:20:31I actually am not sure which is a bigger deal,
0:20:33the fact that you can't have an external device
0:20:36hooked into it and charge without extra stuff.
0:20:40Or whether it's just that USB-C is different
0:20:43and everybody's gonna have to buy adapters.
0:20:44I think one of the biggest things is going to be,
0:20:47if you've got one of these MacBooks
0:20:48and you do presentations,
0:20:49you're gonna need to buy probably a couple
0:20:53of different video adapters
0:20:54and just carry them with you everywhere.
0:20:55which is a fact of life that many Mac laptop people
0:20:59had to do in the past.
0:21:01But for the last few years, you could, you know,
0:21:04people, maybe not everywhere,
0:21:06but that mini DisplayPort plug
0:21:08had had a long time to propagate.
0:21:10And so it was a lot easier to assume
0:21:12that the right adapter would be there.
0:21:14And you know, that's a change with this.
0:21:17Although I think maybe the 12 inch PowerBook
0:21:18had a weird video, like a mini VGA or mini DVI
0:21:22or something that you always had to carry the adapter around.
0:21:25It's in the ballpark.
0:21:26I think these are all, the 12 inch, when it went away,
0:21:28there was sort of nothing for a long time.
0:21:30And like, I used an iBook for a while,
0:21:32even though I consider myself a pro user,
0:21:35I used an iBook for a while because it was small.
0:21:37And then the 11 inch MacBook Air,
0:21:41and the MacBook definitely fits into that genre.
0:21:44It's very much of the kind.
0:21:46And it is the first one,
0:21:47'cause the Air had a lot of extra space
0:21:49on the sides of the keyboard.
0:21:50It is the first Mac laptop since the 12 inch PowerBook
0:21:54have it like the keyboard is really the constraining feature of the product.
0:21:59I want to come back to the keyboard because there's some other stuff that you talk about
0:22:04in regards to that but this is something that many people have spoken about but I'm interested
0:22:09for your take on it. Do you think it's fair to say that this Mac is the first Mac to take
0:22:15big steps towards being closer to iOS? Like the software has been moving in that direction
0:22:21But this machine seems to take hardware cues from it too.
0:22:24And I know this is kind of crossing the line, but you mentioned that when you plug in the charging cord,
0:22:28it chimes at you rather than giving you the light.
0:22:31So it feels like, you know, with the battery and the way that you configure it,
0:22:34where you buy it on the store page and you've got colors and you're taking away the illuminated logo.
0:22:42And, you know, do you feel that this is maybe the first Mac which is kind of starting to bridge the gap?
0:22:49Yeah, this is a Mac designed with...
0:22:53I mean, this is the iPad of Macs.
0:22:57That's how I feel like it is.
0:22:58It's the iPad of Macs.
0:23:00It comes in the iPad and iPhone colors.
0:23:03When you plug it in, you plug it in with a little thing,
0:23:08and it's, you know, the USB-C is bigger than Lightning,
0:23:10but it's the same kind of shape, and you plug it in,
0:23:12and it's got the one port,
0:23:14and that port you use for any peripherals you want
0:23:16or for power, just like the iPad.
0:23:18It's got a headphone jack.
0:23:19That's the only other jack on it.
0:23:21It, you know, it chimes when you plug it in like an iPad.
0:23:25If you've got it shut down and you plug it in,
0:23:27the screen will actually light up briefly
0:23:29and tell you how much battery is left.
0:23:30That's a very iPad and not Mac kind of thing to do.
0:23:34It definitely, the feel of it, it's informed by the iPad.
0:23:38It's not an iPad. It's a Mac laptop, absolutely.
0:23:41But this feels like the premise behind this product was,
0:23:45can we take everything we've learned from the iPad
0:23:48and put it in a in a in a MacBook. So let's go back to the keyboard. So right at
0:23:55the start you kind of open your piece and you're talking about just
0:23:58then with the PowerBook in that having a full-size keyboard dictates so much
0:24:02about the design. It gives you dimensions and in some respects gives you a
0:24:07thickness and that kind of stuff. If you want to have a full-size keyboard in
0:24:10this thing it will dictate a lot of the stuff that you do. And then a quote from
0:24:15review you say if you're not a keyboard snob you may not even notice the
0:24:19difference but if there's any single feature that would make me reluctant to
0:24:22buy a MacBook it would be the keyboard so I find it interesting that like you
0:24:26know you you appreciate and it's definitely I think is the case that like
0:24:31Apple constrained themselves from a design perspective to incorporate the
0:24:35keyboard and as full a design as it can but actually in then in trying to do
0:24:40other things they've made the keyboard worse do you think that Apple for did
0:24:44themselves by insisting so much of the design focus on the keyboard that in and of itself
0:24:50makes an inferior typing experience.
0:24:53So they've pushed certain—they've made like, "It'll be this big because we want a full-size
0:24:57keyboard," but the keyboard's still not as good as it could be or should be anyway.
0:25:01So should they have actually then just made the keyboard smaller or made the whole thing
0:25:04smaller?
0:25:05Well, there's a philosophy at work here that is interesting, and it's design.
0:25:11It's all about choices.
0:25:12decided that thinness was important. They decided, and this is something that I believe
0:25:17Apple has felt for a long time, which is the size of the keyboard is inviolate. You cannot
0:25:26shrink the keyboard. Which I had somebody who at one point I wrote a story where I was
0:25:31using a netbook that has shrunk down keys, and it was just, it was awful. Like, I could
0:25:39not use it because all the keys now are in completely different positions than I had
0:25:44learned how to type on, and every other keyboard in the world was not like that, but this one
0:25:50was different, and it was terrible, and I hated it. And I think Apple said, "Look, we're
0:25:56not going to mess with that. That is where we're starting here, is the keyboard is the
0:25:59size that it is, and that's just how it's going to be. What else can we do?" And from
0:26:04Apple's perspective, the reducing the travel but doing these other things to kind of offset
0:26:09some of the issues with it was, that was the trade-off that they wanted to make in order
0:26:14to get that, you know, physically to have it be that much thinner so that they didn't
0:26:20have, you know, because the way it works, they have very little room to work here. And
0:26:25so these keys are barely above the metal and they go down to, you know, essentially flush.
0:26:33not a whole lot, and then there's whatever is under there, the mechanism and the light,
0:26:39it's super narrow. So they decided that they weren't willing to sacrifice the thinness
0:26:43of the computer to have key travel, but they weren't, you know, they weren't willing to
0:26:49go beyond that. They were not willing to sacrifice the key layout. And, you know, fair enough.
0:26:55an interesting set of trade-offs to make. And for me, as somebody who, you know, and
0:27:04I want to put this in perspective, I do a lot of writing on a keyboard. This is, you
0:27:10know, other than the talking part that you and I are doing, the other part of my professional
0:27:14life is typing things. In my personal life, because I write books and stuff that one day
0:27:21day, maybe I'll get back to when I'm not doing all these podcasts.
0:27:27And so for me, the keyboard really matters.
0:27:30And I type really fast, and so I have lots of opinions about keyboards.
0:27:34So Apple's saying, "Look, most people aren't going to care.
0:27:37Most people aren't going to care, and we've done some things to offset it, so it's not
0:27:40that big a deal."
0:27:41That could be wrong.
0:27:42They could just—people could—you know, they'll do research.
0:27:44I'm sure they'll do research and find out that people, you know, people's satisfaction
0:27:49with the MacBook, maybe it goes down. And one of the reasons why is they don't like
0:27:53the keyboard. Or maybe it doesn't change at all because nobody cares. And then they're
0:27:57like, "All right, we made the right call there." The people who really care can use a different
0:28:01device with a different keyboard. But, you know, the market for this, they're fine with
0:28:07it. And I'm sure they will look at that. And honestly, if what they find is that this keyboard
0:28:13is too great a compromise for a lot of people, then they'll put that on their list of, "Is
0:28:18there's something else we could do to make the keyboard better. And they may already
0:28:21think that. I mean, it doesn't sound very Apple to just accept, "Well, it's compromised,
0:28:25but whatever. What are you going to do?" And then move on. They may still be thinking,
0:28:29"Are there ways that we can make this better?" I hope that they're not thinking it's the
0:28:33best and all of our keyboards will be like this from now on. I hope they're not thinking
0:28:37that. But like I said, I got the vibe when I talked to some people at Apple that Apple
0:28:44was aware that this is a compromise and that the other things they put into this keyboard
0:28:50were maybe meant to offset the fact that they were taking all that key travel away.
0:28:56Because at some point you might as well just have it be a touchscreen down there with the
0:29:00Taptic Engine on it and just not even move and just have it be glass.
0:29:04At some point, why even bother with having keys and calling them keys if they travel
0:29:09almost nothing at all?
0:29:11could just fool us like they do with the Force Touch trackpad at that point.
0:29:16Had you thought of that before you just said that, like the idea of them just putting a
0:29:21touchscreen down there?
0:29:22Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. I mean, at some point, you know, you could do that and then you could
0:29:30say, oh well, and it's programmable, it can be anything down there and it can be a control
0:29:33surface and all that. I think that's a long way to go and I think there's a lot of extra
0:29:37technology and that's another screen you have to drive and, you know, I don't know if that'll
0:29:40ever happen on a Mac, but at some point your keyboard isn't much more than a touchscreen.
0:29:49When you've got no travel left, or almost no travel, then why is it even there, other
0:29:54than to fool you into thinking that the keys move?
0:29:58And now Apple has technology that can fool you.
0:30:01Yeah.
0:30:02It's an interesting thought experiment.
0:30:05Yeah, yeah.
0:30:06And so everybody should try it for themselves.
0:30:08to the Apple Store and just type around on it a little bit, and you'll see it's a very
0:30:13different kind of experience. The keys don't move very much. And, you know, for a lot of
0:30:16people, they probably don't care. And I think that's what Apple's banking on, is that most
0:30:21people aren't going to care about this. I thought I would get over it after using it
0:30:25for five or six days. I thought I would be used to it, and then I went back to my other
0:30:29keyboard briefly, and I was like, "Oh my, oh thank God." You know, it was just like
0:30:32a huge relief. And then I went back to the MacBook keyboard and I'm like, "Oh no, this
0:30:36thing again and that's when I knew like I hadn't adapted to it. I had endured it but
0:30:41I hadn't adapted to it.
0:30:42Are you worried that we're gonna see new keyboards in this style? Do you think that Apple are
0:30:49going to take things they've learned from this keyboard and adapt it out to the rest
0:30:53of the line?
0:30:54You know the Force Touch trackpad I think would be great everywhere and I think we will
0:30:58see that everywhere eventually. This keyboard I don't know. If you had asked me when they
0:31:04announced it. I've been worried about that they were going to think that this is the
0:31:07thing that they should roll out everywhere. Now, you know, like I said, it seems like
0:31:13Apple is aware that this is a compromise for thinness and that I hope that means, you know,
0:31:21I hope that's code for we're only going to use this when we really absolutely need something
0:31:26that's super thin and otherwise we're not because it feels like it's too far. I think
0:31:32pushing this into every... if all the new Apple Bluetooth keyboards and all the, you
0:31:36know, even on big laptops have this little tiny thing, I think that would be unfortunate.
0:31:41But you know, I don't make the rules. So I'm hopeful that they're aware that it is a compromise
0:31:47for thinness and maybe they wouldn't push it into other parts of the line.
0:31:52What about the design? So like the bigger key caps and the San Francisco font?
0:31:57Yeah, we're pretty far down in the weeds when we're talking about the font that letters
0:32:02are printed on a keyboard. It's fine. It's nice. It's nice. The bigger keys take some
0:32:08getting used to. I don't like the full-sized left and right arrows with the half-sized
0:32:13up and down arrows. There are a bunch of us who have talked about this today on the internet.
0:32:17Jim Dalrymple mentioned it. John Gruber mentioned it. Turns out that I navigate arrow keys.
0:32:23I orient my fingers on the arrow keys based on the spacing around the arrow keys, which
0:32:28is now gone.
0:32:30So now you have to orient based on the fact that there's one key that is split in half,
0:32:35and that's the up and down arrow key.
0:32:37And it's just different.
0:32:38I don't particularly like it.
0:32:39I think all of it I would get used to.
0:32:43You can, you know, the bigger spread keys mean you can miss more and still hit the key
0:32:50key. If you're a less precise typist, that's a good thing. I think it's all fine. For me,
0:32:57it all comes back to the travel. Also, I should say the backlighting, I find problematic.
0:33:05They've got this new backlighting, everything's individually lit, and that's nice, but some
0:33:09of the keys feel like they're not uniformly lit. Like the escape key, the E is sort of
0:33:16half lit and there's some other keys where like the bottom part or the bottom left corner
0:33:22or the bottom right corner it sort of gets darker which I don't think is good. I think
0:33:28I you know that doesn't seem to be up to Apple standards. Does it matter in the end that
0:33:32the escape key is not entirely equally evenly lit from behind? No probably not but it doesn't
0:33:38sound very Apple-like.
0:33:40We've got a bunch of Ask Upgrade MacBook focused questions so we should get to those.
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0:36:18So Jason, I'm going to run through some questions from the Upgradians.
0:36:22We have @mjedi.
0:36:25Is the MacBook a good second Mac, for example travel or around the house?
0:36:30Jedi has a 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro, is this something, if somebody has the means
0:36:34and the desire to have a second laptop which is easy to use, nice and portable, would you
0:36:42recommend it in this case? Like how you have your 11.
0:36:47Yeah. Yeah. I think what I would say is what matters more to you, the keyboard or the screen?
0:36:58If the screen matters more to you, I think the MacBook or the 13-inch Retina.
0:37:04And if the keyboard matters more to you, it's the MacBook Air or the 13-inch Retina.
0:37:10And if power matters more to you and ports and things like that, then it's the Air or
0:37:14the Retina MacBook Pro and not the MacBook.
0:37:18So it really depends on sort of like what you're looking for.
0:37:21And there are choices, which is great.
0:37:22You know, there are a lot of cranky people talking about this MacBook.
0:37:25"Ah, bro, Apple did this. It's terrible and awful because I can't use it." You know,
0:37:30we've talked about that before. It's not—maybe it's not for you. There are a lot
0:37:33of people—it's just—it's not—it's not a computer for everyone. It definitely
0:37:36isn't. The screen's great, and if you don't care about the kind of—the issues
0:37:41that I have personally with a keyboard, then, you know, it's light and thin
0:37:44and nice. If you don't care about retina, you know, you can get a MacBook Air
0:37:49for cheaper that's faster so you know depends on what your priorities are
0:37:56Timothy BT do you know I mean I've tried to look this up I can't see on the
0:38:01website do you know how much the upgrade to the 1.3 gigahertz processor will cost
0:38:06yeah yeah I think it's 250 okay somebody looked that that was reported I think
0:38:10it's 250 to make it slightly faster okay we have MJ Huber jr. I'm gonna go with
0:38:18Basically asking, with a multitude of adapters,
0:38:23will the cinema display work?
0:38:25And they list off a bunch of different adapters
0:38:28from third parties and Apple,
0:38:31and if you chain them all together,
0:38:33do you have any idea if this machine
0:38:35can power a cinema display at all?
0:38:37'Cause what I'd understood is that the chipset
0:38:41just wouldn't allow for certain things.
0:38:45- What do you mean?
0:38:46Do you mean like the Thunderbolt display,
0:38:48or some other display.
0:38:50- Let's go with a Thunderbolt display,
0:38:51which I'm pretty sure it can't do.
0:38:52- My understanding is, yeah, my understanding
0:38:54is Thunderbolt and USB-C don't talk to each other.
0:38:56I think otherwise, if you can chain things together,
0:39:00it may support it.
0:39:01It does support one external monitor,
0:39:03and Apple sells a couple of adapters,
0:39:05and I think it would probably drive,
0:39:10I don't know the details of how big a,
0:39:14I don't have an adapter to drive a monitor with it,
0:39:16So there's nothing I've been able to test with it.
0:39:18But I'm sure it'll—if you can get it out in the right form,
0:39:21it'll drive sort of a normal-sized monitor.
0:39:24It's not going to drive a, you know, 4K display or something.
0:39:29But I'm sure it will drive your usual kinds of monitors
0:39:34if you adapt them properly.
0:39:37-Joe Historia has asked,
0:39:39"Would you say that the new MacBook could be a good choice
0:39:42for someone who's not used to using computers,
0:39:45like a first computer? Is it a good choice?
0:39:47Is it maybe better than an iPad or not?
0:39:52-Oh, wow. I don't know.
0:39:54It's for people who want to use a computer.
0:39:57It's not an iPad. It doesn't have a touch screen.
0:40:00It doesn't run those apps. It's a computer.
0:40:03And if it's for somebody
0:40:04who hasn't really had a computer before,
0:40:07I don't know, the MacBook Air is cheaper,
0:40:08but it doesn't have the beautiful display.
0:40:10And then there's, you know, the MacBook and the MacBook Pro
0:40:13that have the beautiful display.
0:40:15So it depends on what, again, it depends on what your priorities are.
0:40:17One of the nice things about the MacBook is that it is fitting into a product line.
0:40:22This is not the only laptop.
0:40:23This is one of, if you count the different sizes, one of five essentially choices that
0:40:29you have on Apple's laptop line now.
0:40:32So Fraser Spears is interested about video performance and how it holds up under thermal
0:40:37stress and he's kind of given the idea of like if you're watching continuous flash video,
0:40:41let's say you're watching Netflix or something like that.
0:40:43you had any any kind of problems watching video for long periods of time
0:40:48maybe when the machine starts to get hot and also supplementary question has the
0:40:52machine got hot? So Fraser after he after Fraser asked that I I ran Major League
0:40:58Baseball in Chrome streaming video via flash for an hour and a half and it
0:41:04didn't stutter and it was perfectly smooth and it doesn't make any noise
0:41:07because there's no fan and the bottom got warm but just warm and sounds like
0:41:13you really wouldn't have enjoyed that homework.
0:41:15Yeah, I was doing other things. I was listening to you and Casey, but I left it on because
0:41:21I wanted to... It was like the New York Mets. I don't care about the New York Mets, but
0:41:26there was. Sorry Mets fans, it's your team, not mine. People in the chat room, by the
0:41:30way, are saying that according to Apple, it will drive up to 3840 by 2160 on an external
0:41:40So, that's pretty impressive. So you just got to get the cabling right.
0:41:45Yeah, you can have like 20 adapters all chained together, but if you can get it, you can get
0:41:50it. Yeah, if you can get it to work, or probably,
0:41:53or buy a cable. My guess is going to be, or buy a cable.
0:41:58So yeah, my second question is, have you had it get warm or hot at all? Because this is
0:42:02a fanless computer. Yeah, just like I said about the MLB streaming
0:42:08that Fraser had me try, you know, flash video streaming just because that makes computers
0:42:12cry. And it was warm on the bottom. Your mileage may vary. It felt warm to me. It didn't feel
0:42:19uncomfortably hot. And it was sort of spread across a lot of the back, which is the I think
0:42:24the idea there is to they've got some material that is like acting as the heat sink that's
0:42:30drawing it across the back. And that's the whole idea is that that's where the heat goes
0:42:34out as it radiates out of the metal on the back side of the bottom of the laptop. And
0:42:41it was warm, but it wasn't hot. I don't think there's going to be one of those "Oh, I burned
0:42:45my legs with my MacBook." I don't think that's an issue.
0:42:50It's not like the original MacBook Air. My brother actually got a burn mark on his leg
0:42:55from using the original MacBook Air. But that's a story for another day. We have @Scribb,
0:43:03I've got a USB A to C cable.
0:43:06Could the MacBook charge from a USB charger with it?
0:43:09Do you know, have you tried any of this?
0:43:11Like those external Mopi packs?
0:43:13In theory, could you do it?
0:43:14- I don't have any adapters that will allow me
0:43:17to do any of those things.
0:43:18In theory, yes.
0:43:20It might take forever.
0:43:21- Yeah.
0:43:22- Or charge it only a little.
0:43:24But in theory, yes, you could charge it.
0:43:26In theory, you could charge it
0:43:27from another computer probably,
0:43:29if you have the right cables.
0:43:31but I haven't been able to try a lot of that
0:43:33because all I really have is the one USB adapter
0:43:36and it is an adapter to a USB-A female,
0:43:40which means that I can plug in other USB devices
0:43:43like a DVD drive or something,
0:43:45but not connected to a computer
0:43:48'cause I don't have a USB-A to USB-A cable.
0:43:52They didn't really make those.
0:43:55They do exist, but nothing really shipped with one
0:43:58because generally what you have on a USB device
0:44:00is you've got the -- you know, you're either going
0:44:03from the USB-A to, like, a mini or a micro,
0:44:06or you're going to that big USB-B,
0:44:10the square instead of the rectangle.
0:44:13And I don't -- so I don't have the right cables
0:44:15to try a lot of this stuff, unfortunately.
0:44:17And Monoprice just announced that they've got those cables,
0:44:20but that was too late for my review.
0:44:24-Kay Bradnam asked, "The trackpad looks bigger
0:44:27with a wider aspect ratio.
0:44:28Did this make any difference in day-to-day use?
0:44:32-Nope.
0:44:33Feels like a trackpad.
0:44:35Feels -- feels -- and that's saying something,
0:44:37given that it doesn't actually, you know, depress.
0:44:40It's all in your head.
0:44:41But it feels like a trackpad.
0:44:43It doesn't -- it doesn't feel -- it feels exactly --
0:44:46as somebody who uses a MacBook Air,
0:44:47it feels exactly the same.
0:44:50-OJPUK, how's the performance of photos,
0:44:53scoring for a large library and stuff like that?
0:44:55Does the MacBook hold up?
0:44:57So I haven't had a chance to spend any time in photos
0:45:01on the MacBook because the MacBook I got came with 10.10.2
0:45:05and I only updated it to 10.10.3 yesterday
0:45:09because of course they have to build these things
0:45:10and put things on the drive, image the drives
0:45:12and put them in there and then ship them from the factory.
0:45:15And since 10.10.3 came out yesterday,
0:45:19all these MacBooks did not ship with 10.10.3,
0:45:21they shipped with 10.10.2.
0:45:23So my guess is that it works fine
0:45:25because everything else, everything I did try,
0:45:27and I got a lot of questions that were like,
0:45:28well, what about this app?
0:45:29Well, what about this app?
0:45:30Which I totally understand,
0:45:32but it's not possible for me to use every app.
0:45:34And the reality is the amount of time you spend
0:45:37testing a bunch of different apps,
0:45:39what you find is the exact same thing with all of them.
0:45:41So I did use Logic, for example,
0:45:43because that's an app that I know pretty well
0:45:46and that I can recognize the performance issues,
0:45:49and it didn't have any.
0:45:51Mostly, I mean, one of the big reasons is Logic
0:45:53is so disk-based and having an SSD
0:45:55means, you know, it runs pretty well. But photos in particular I didn't get a chance
0:46:03to use because I didn't have 1010.3 on it until yesterday afternoon, and so I just haven't
0:46:09tested it. But generally, everything's been fine that I've used. Yeah, it's a little slow.
0:46:13I find the interface not slow at all, but anything that's like a super-intensive calculation,
0:46:17like bouncing a track out of logic, you know, it takes a lot longer than on my Retina iMac,
0:46:24for sure. It's slower when it gets into the processor-intensive kind of
0:46:28cranking away at something, you know, it doesn't go as fast. But I never in my
0:46:33regular use of it thought, "Oh, this thing is so slow." It just never
0:46:36happened. If you try to play a game on it, you would, you know, even though the
0:46:40graphics processor in it is fine, you know, it's, you know, it's slow. It's
0:46:45not gonna blow you away. It's not a game machine. Don't buy it if you want to use
0:46:48it to play games. That would be dumb. Don't do that. But anyway, so photos,
0:46:53Photos, though, in particular, I can't say because it didn't ship with photos.
0:47:00It shipped with 10.10.2, and I spent most of the time using 10.10.2 and not 10.10.3.
0:47:06We have an email from Van Dan.
0:47:09Van Dan has said, "I use an iPad for practically everything.
0:47:12I end up using my MacBook only at work thanks to Xcode and OmniGraffle and some other software.
0:47:18Because of this, I've noticed that the applications that I use tend to have a Mac app, an iPhone
0:47:22and an iPad app. Considering the MacBook spec, and I'm sure that he said he's sure a lot
0:47:28of users will be looking at getting the MacBook to replace their iPads, do you think that
0:47:32people will feel that way? And if they do, does it make sense to do this?
0:47:39You know, the iPad and the MacBook are just totally different products. They're totally
0:47:45different products. I don't think there's a continuum there. I think you use a Mac for
0:47:50Mac things, and you use an iPad for iPad things. And so, you know, this—I don't
0:47:58think this is as dramatic a change as maybe you could make it out to be. The
0:48:0311-inch MacBook Air is already really small, you know, and it's really thin and
0:48:07it's really light. It's not as small and thin and light as the MacBook, but it is
0:48:10pretty close, and it doesn't have a retina display. That's the big difference.
0:48:14But, you know, this is not an iPad. This is a—this is a laptop, and you're gonna
0:48:18to make judgments about it based on whether you want to use a laptop or an iPad. I don't
0:48:21think somebody would say, "Well, I've been using an iPad, but I'd really rather just
0:48:25use a Mac, but the MacBook Air is not good enough for me. Oh, now, but now that there's
0:48:30this MacBook, now I'll make the switch." I don't think that's going to be a main—I
0:48:33mean, maybe somebody will say that, but like those people who have spreadsheets on their
0:48:38Windows mobile phones in 2006. But I don't think that's a broad statement that lots of
0:48:46people would make. So, you know, I have a—I don't know how to answer that question other
0:48:51than to say that this is a continuation of Apple making the laptops thinner and lighter.
0:48:55I don't think it has any impact on the iPad. I doubt there are people using an iPad saying,
0:49:00"I'd really rather use a Mac for this, but, you know, the existing Mac offerings are just
0:49:04too big for me." It's, you know, it's still a MacBook. It's not some weird hybrid.
0:49:11So my last question comes again from MJ.
0:49:15I've said his second question today.
0:49:17If you could get only one, which would you choose, the Apple Watch or the new MacBook?
0:49:21Well, I have a MacBook Air 11, so the Apple Watch.
0:49:25Are you going to be pre-ordering?
0:49:27An Apple Watch?
0:49:28Yeah.
0:49:29Probably, probably, because I need to have one.
0:49:35Yeah.
0:49:37Yeah, yeah, I'm still hoping that I can talk somebody at Apple into giving me a review
0:49:42unit to try out, but I can't count on that, and I do need to have one to write about,
0:49:47so I will probably pre-order something.
0:49:51So I think in summary, the way that I feel from talking to you about this, I wouldn't
0:49:56say you sound down on this machine, but you're not super excited about it, which I think
0:50:01echoes our original expectations, which is this is not your machine, so you're not crazy
0:50:07about it, but it's got things that are good about it that will be good for some people,
0:50:11but this is not one for you.
0:50:13The USB-C thing is not a hang-up for me. In the end, what I would say, what surprised
0:50:17me is that I think only the keyboard is the thing that really is bothering me. If you
0:50:21had the MacBook Air's keyboard on this thing, then I would say yes, absolutely, the next
0:50:25laptop I buy -- again, having a recent model MacBook Air, it's not going to be for a while
0:50:29would be the MacBook. With this keyboard, I'll think about it. I'm not, you know, I'm
0:50:34not entirely sold on it, but I think, I do think the keyboard is its
0:50:39weakest point, and for a lot of people it won't matter, and so that's good
0:50:43for them because the weakest point is irrelevant to them, and then don't worry
0:50:47about it. But to me, the USB-C stuff is gonna take care of itself. I think the
0:50:52battery life is pretty good. I know that there are some people who reported that
0:50:55they did like serious battery tests and said that it didn't live as long as the
0:51:01as the MacBook Air. That does not, I think Joanna Stern reported that and
0:51:07ReCode reported that, that does not match with my usage at all. I suspect that this,
0:51:13the power saving in here is doing some very interesting things that mean it has
0:51:19a long battery life when you use it like a regular person, but that if you crank
0:51:22everything up and and try to deplete the battery really quickly, it depletes
0:51:27quickly. But I don't know if that's something that anybody would really see.
0:51:32For me it felt like it lasted a lot longer than my 11-inch air. Take that for
0:51:37what you will because I didn't run any formal tests because I'm only one person
0:51:40and if you run a lot of formal battery tests you've just lost half of your time
0:51:44with a product so I can't do that. Couldn't do that in Macworld, can't do it
0:51:49now, it's just, it's not worth it. If you're really going to do it right, it takes way
0:51:54too much time, it's not worth doing when you're initially reviewing something. So, you know,
0:51:59I think that for a lot of people, running it without it plugged in and occasionally
0:52:06plugging in an external USB device, which I don't think a lot of people are doing anyway,
0:52:10I just don't think it's a big deal. And it's going to take care of itself in the next six
0:52:14months or in the next year. It's already starting to take care of itself. You buy an adapter,
0:52:18buy a cable, you move on. So I don't think any of those are really roadblocks.
0:52:23The screen is great. I actually ended up running it on the biggest, or I
0:52:30guess littlest scaled mode, so I got a little more screen real estate and
0:52:33everything's just a little bit smaller. Looks great. All the space of like a 13
0:52:38inch laptop on a 12 inch laptop. You know, there are a lot of things to commend it.
0:52:44I think for me I am just hung up on the keyboard and that's just that's that's my
0:52:49that's my cross to bear and if you're somebody who cares about keyboards then
0:52:52you may care about it too but I think probably most people won't care.
0:52:56I want to try it out I want to see if I can feel it. I don't think I'll be able to.
0:53:01Like at least I'll maybe feel a difference but I don't think it will
0:53:05wother me as it bothers you so I'm interested I'm interested. That's my
0:53:08hypothesis so whenever it is I go into the Apple store to try on an
0:53:13Apple Watch. I'll also play around with with the MacBook and I'll let you know
0:53:17what I think about the keyboard because I'm just not... I'm just... obviously I type
0:53:22like everybody does but I don't type nowhere near as much as you do and I
0:53:27think that maybe that I might may be less sensitive to it than you but we'll
0:53:30see we'll see. Yeah. Thank you Mr. Jason Snell thank you for doing this today
0:53:36it's been an interesting experiment into getting a little bit more director's
0:53:42commentary out of this little bonus upgrade time. But we'll be back
0:53:48at our usual time next week for our usual upgrade. Yeah our regularly scheduled
0:53:55programming will continue on Monday. I just couldn't be away from the show for any
0:54:00longer I just couldn't allow it. Yeah I approve I appreciate it. After our two
0:54:04you know you couldn't stay away after our two podcasts in person you just
0:54:09couldn't you couldn't let it go. If you want to find the show notes for this
0:54:12week's episode of course you can check in your app of choice you'll find links
0:54:16to Jason's review I put Jim Darrowpool's review in there as well because you
0:54:19mentioned that I'll put you on a stands in too because you mentioned those so
0:54:21you can get some differing opinions if you would like to so you can grab those
0:54:27or you can go to relay.fm/upgrade/31 and you'll see that lovely link
0:54:33list there for you so you can check all those out if you want to find us on
0:54:37social media as a couple of days you can do that you can go to @JSNEL
0:54:40J S N E double O you can find Jason on Twitter there I am @imike I M Y K E and
0:54:45of course Jason is the editor-in-chief of the fantastic sixcolors.com where
0:54:50you'll find all of Jason's great work oh don't forget the incomparable too
0:54:54because you just should never forget the incomparable because it's the best.
0:54:58Award-winning. Award-winning. Award-winning the incomparable. You win the award of my heart too
0:55:04Jason, for the work that you do there. So thank you for doing all of that. And thank
0:55:09you so much for listening to this very special episode and we'll be back next week. Bye-bye.
0:55:14Goodbye.
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