29: Velcro Ball


00:00:00   *BEEP*

00:00:00   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade Episode number 29.

00:00:17   This week's show, which is coming to you live from Ireland,

00:00:20   is sponsored by lynda.com, where you can instantly stream thousands of courses created by industry experts,

00:00:26   MailRoute, a secure hosted email service for protection from viruses and spam, and Bushall,

00:00:31   a cloud-based mobile device management solution for the Mac, iPhone, and the iPad.

00:00:36   My name is Myke Hurley, and I'm joined, as always, by the king of the Emerald Isle, Mr.

00:00:40   Jason Snell.

00:00:41   Hi, Myke.

00:00:43   We are here.

00:00:45   This is a podcast that we do.

00:00:46   It is indeed.

00:00:47   And it's week two of Jason and Myke do a podcast on the road.

00:00:52   Well, you're on the road now.

00:00:55   I've been on the road a long time.

00:00:58   But yeah, we're in Killarney, Ireland now.

00:01:00   How about that?

00:01:01   I don't know what my family looks like anymore.

00:01:04   No.

00:01:05   And we are safely ensconced in a beautiful hotel for the All Conference.

00:01:09   Me and you are here this week.

00:01:11   We're doing some exciting things.

00:01:13   And All is a great little conference.

00:01:16   And it's something that people should check out if they haven't already.

00:01:19   And also keep your eye.

00:01:20   There's some interesting stuff happening this week that people may be able to view no matter

00:01:24   away you are.

00:01:25   So that's fun.

00:01:26   But yeah, so we are both now here.

00:01:28   We took a lovely train yesterday which brought us down to Killarney from Dublin.

00:01:32   Right?

00:01:33   That was the—they chartered an OOL train.

00:01:36   It actually said on the board, "OOL, private charter."

00:01:39   And it was the—if that train had wrecked, half of the podcasts in the Apple sphere would

00:01:44   have been—

00:01:45   It would have been over.

00:01:46   Because that was—I was, you know, sitting with Marco and Tiffany Arment and you were

00:01:50   just down the aisle a bit, and it was all just Apple people.

00:01:54   Mm-hmm.

00:01:55   With René.

00:01:56   René and Serenity and Georgia from Imore were all there.

00:01:59   I got to meet George's husband, who was exactly as awesome as I would have expected

00:02:03   him to be.

00:02:04   Nice guy.

00:02:05   Yeah, it was a great trip down on the train.

00:02:08   And although we were all sort of zombies, because we were all tired and traveling from

00:02:12   far-off places, but…

00:02:13   Yeah, some people were just like, they had arrived in Ireland and just went straight

00:02:18   to the train.

00:02:19   Like at least me and you, we'd stayed over, I guess, which made it a lot easier.

00:02:23   Yeah, so it was good.

00:02:26   I think that, not to do too much of our travelogue and make people feel bad for not traveling,

00:02:33   but I think one of the themes that I've experienced the last week and a half is meeting people

00:02:39   in person.

00:02:40   I think at this conference, we did our meetup last week.

00:02:45   Which went fantastically.

00:02:46   Thank you to everyone that came.

00:02:47   Yes.

00:02:48   only a week ago, though.

00:02:49   I know, a week ago today.

00:02:51   Yeah.

00:02:52   It's hard to believe.

00:02:53   We recorded last week's episode, and then we went to the Big Chill House in London,

00:02:58   and you do something like that, and you hope that we don't outnumber the people who come

00:03:05   to see us, right?

00:03:06   It's like us and our friends and then two people who are podcast listeners.

00:03:11   And somebody told me, and I can't verify this, but somebody told me that at some point they

00:03:15   They counted 65 people in that room.

00:03:19   That's how many I guess I would have estimated.

00:03:21   I picked a specific venue because I felt that it would fit people in.

00:03:26   Because I've been there before and I knew that it had some rooms to it.

00:03:30   So if we started to get a bit of an unruly group going on, which we did, we were able

00:03:35   to go away and not bother the rest of the patrons.

00:03:38   Yeah, we were blocking the entire bar and then we went upstairs and essentially it was

00:03:43   just us up there.

00:03:45   And there were a lot of us.

00:03:47   So that was amazing.

00:03:48   And it was great.

00:03:49   It was just great to meet those people.

00:03:50   And it says something about the value of meeting people face to face.

00:03:56   It says something about the community that I think that something like podcasting can

00:04:02   generate.

00:04:03   One of my good friends is Simon Jerry, who is the publisher at IDG UK.

00:04:10   And I stayed with him and his family when I was in London.

00:04:14   And he and Karen, who's the editor of Macworld UK, came to the meetup, and they were, I think,

00:04:22   quite surprised by the numbers, because they're not podcast people.

00:04:30   So it was good to see it through their eyes, too, and see just how amazing it is and how

00:04:35   much people love listening to podcasts.

00:04:36   And we have that same thing when we meet people who do podcasts that we love.

00:04:41   It's cool.

00:04:42   to see them in person and get the enthusiasm and feel from other people how much they enjoy

00:04:48   listening to what we do.

00:04:50   But also it was like a meeting of the tribe.

00:04:52   I felt like it's like these are our people.

00:04:54   It was really nice to just chat with all of them.

00:04:57   And for me, I was bouncing between people talking about Star Wars and Doctor Who and

00:05:02   things from The Incomparable and then people talking about Apple stuff from Upgrade and

00:05:07   Six Colors and Clockwise.

00:05:08   So that was pretty – that was a lot of fun, too.

00:05:11   interests were really diverse, so it was a great night.

00:05:15   And they kept bringing us drinks, Myke.

00:05:16   Yeah, I made the good mistake on analog talking about my favorite bourbons, and then they

00:05:23   just kept appearing in my hands.

00:05:24   People just kept bringing me glasses of Maker's Mark.

00:05:27   I thought you were doing okay with the beer, and then I saw you with whiskey in your hand,

00:05:31   and I thought, "Oh no."

00:05:33   It was fun.

00:05:34   It was really...

00:05:35   It's like this sort of thing, and the reason that I wanted us to talk about this today

00:05:39   It was because one of the ongoing themes we've had in this show is that we're both going through like changes in our

00:05:44   lives that are related to our work right one of the big things for me is the

00:05:49   Detachment from people on a day-to-day basis like I don't when I used to work in an office

00:05:54   Whether I wanted to speak to people or whatever there was always people around right and I'm learning now that the value in making sure

00:06:02   I get out to meet people in these sort of environments

00:06:05   So I think it's interesting for anybody that likes this stuff or works on their own or

00:06:09   whatever to go to these types of things like meetups and conferences and stuff.

00:06:14   Because it really helps just give you the human interaction that we all need.

00:06:18   Yeah, and something like Slack and Skype, they can do a lot.

00:06:23   It can go a long way, but there's that little extra part of it, that meeting, like me and

00:06:29   you hanging out in person adds that little bit more that we can't get from just talking

00:06:33   on Skype.

00:06:34   Last night, after dinner, we were hanging out with a bunch of other people in the bar

00:06:38   talking and drinking various things.

00:06:42   I was having some Guinness.

00:06:43   We have an Ask upgrade about that later, I think.

00:06:46   And it was just, I was sitting there thinking, "We haven't spent a lot of time together

00:06:52   in person, and it's good.

00:06:55   It's a different thing, and we haven't spent any time together since we started doing this

00:06:59   show."

00:07:00   And so it's been really good for that, that it's like a little host bonding time.

00:07:06   And it's good, and it does remind me as well that even though I do get out of my house

00:07:10   and see other parents when I'm picking my kids up from school and we try to have people

00:07:15   over for dinner sometimes, it does remind me that I do need to make that extra effort

00:07:20   to see people, because it's another thing and it can't entirely be replaced by a Slack

00:07:27   chatroom or a Google Hangout.

00:07:29   It's like one of those things where I'm working really hard on something and my girlfriend's

00:07:35   like, "You haven't left the house for two days.

00:07:38   Maybe you should just leave."

00:07:39   I was like, "Ah, I'm working hard."

00:07:41   It's like you're in a big plastic bubble with the inquisitive on the label.

00:07:46   Yeah, that's why.

00:07:47   Myke's inside the bubble.

00:07:49   He's inside the bubble now.

00:07:50   Let him out.

00:07:51   He's inquiring.

00:07:52   Leave him alone.

00:07:53   Let him out.

00:07:54   Before we lose all our listeners through to people just not wanting to hear about our

00:07:58   Yes, #RelayYourFeels.

00:07:59   Yeah.

00:08:00   Let's let Casey deal with it.

00:08:02   That is actually one of the subjects of Analog this week was the meetup because Casey was

00:08:09   fascinated.

00:08:10   That's actually, if you haven't listened to Analog before, I suggest this week's

00:08:14   episode because there's also, I get really, really angry about something that I want to

00:08:19   get off my chest and I think it's really interesting.

00:08:22   All right, there's some follow out of a sort.

00:08:26   Check that out.

00:08:27   Actually, episode number 33, but it's in our show notes.

00:08:30   Mr. J, it's now, "Why Can People Find the Show Notes for Upgrade?"

00:08:32   It's at relay.fm/upgrade/twenty--I have to scroll up.

00:08:39   Oh, no, my internet--29.

00:08:40   Perfect.

00:08:41   Or in your podcast app that you're listening to right now.

00:08:45   Because they're probably in there.

00:08:46   Should we take a quick break?

00:08:48   I think that's a good idea.

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00:10:58   Do you like it when you see me do the ads live?

00:11:00   I do.

00:11:01   In fact, at one point, and I'm tempted to tweet that picture, at one point you punched

00:11:07   the air with your fist while you were reading.

00:11:09   I kept really excited.

00:11:10   That was impressive.

00:11:11   It is funny, because as we were going into that, and we had the little back and forth

00:11:17   there, and that's something, that's actually something that we can't really do because

00:11:20   of the distance between England and California, the latency in Skype, we can't do that quick.

00:11:26   You kind of have to give everything a few seconds to land because of that.

00:11:29   So that's another fun thing.

00:11:31   The speed of light conspires against us there, Myke.

00:11:33   That is the main problem Ian, you have with the show.

00:11:36   The latency is really, really high.

00:11:38   But we're getting there now.

00:11:40   That's not the main problem.

00:11:41   You have many more.

00:11:43   So many more.

00:11:44   Am I right?

00:11:46   Is Myke right?

00:11:47   How do you feel about the 6+ now?

00:11:49   Well, you've been very confident online about being right about the 6 Plus.

00:11:55   And so when I was flying over here from Glasgow, because I went from London, I took the train

00:12:01   up to Glasgow, stayed there for a few days, got to see all things Scottish, had a truly

00:12:06   Scottish meal, which was a curry, which was actually great.

00:12:09   It was my first curry.

00:12:11   My wife is very excited that she can take me to Indian food now that I've approved of

00:12:16   some Indian food, at least in the Scottish fashion. Can you get me some good Scottish

00:12:21   Indian food? That's what I need now. And so we flew down from Glasgow, and I wanted to

00:12:28   listen to music on the plane while I was reading, because I was reading that new Steve Jobs

00:12:32   book. And I realized all my music was on my iPhone 6 that I brought with me, but it's

00:12:39   just been turned off. So it's in airplane mode. I turned it on, and I was listening

00:12:44   to music. The moment I pulled it out and I held it in my hand, I thought, "Oh, this

00:12:48   is the moment of truth for 'Is Myke Right or Not?'" And I have to say, I felt this

00:12:53   just sort of like sigh of relief about it, because I still feel more comfortable with

00:12:59   the 6. I like the 6+. I don't think I ever hated it. I feel like maybe it's just not

00:13:05   for me, that I like the smaller size. You can learn the tricks—you were talking about

00:13:10   this last night, you can learn the tricks to sort of moving it around, but there is

00:13:14   sort of a dexterity that you need to become practiced with to flip that, you know, hold

00:13:20   it and flip it around in certain ways to reach other parts of the screen.

00:13:25   And I can appreciate learning that, and I have been learning some of that, but I'm,

00:13:30   you know, I don't think it's for me.

00:13:31   I am seeing more of the benefits about it.

00:13:34   So this is where I will say that Myke was right, is traveling, I brought it, one of

00:13:38   reasons I brought it was the big battery. And I thought if I'm out and about somewhere

00:13:42   traveling, I don't want to run out of my battery because then I'm not going to know where I

00:13:45   am and not be able to get home. And that's been great. That battery is amazing. It is

00:13:50   truly amazing. So I have positive feelings about it, but unless it changes in the next

00:13:57   few days, my feeling is that I would not get a 6 Plus or its successor as my next phone.

00:14:07   But my wife, I think, is intrigued by it, because she keeps her phone in her purse,

00:14:13   and she doesn't do a lot of wandering around with the one-handed phone thing, and she likes

00:14:19   the bigger screen.

00:14:20   So, someone in my family may get a plus in the end, but I don't think that will be me.

00:14:27   So I found it really interesting at dinner last night that 6+ became a topic of conversation.

00:14:32   It did.

00:14:33   And that was, we should say, our dinner table.

00:14:36   It was you and me and Georgia and Renee and Serenity and Marco and Tiff and James Thompson,

00:14:44   and there were a couple other people there.

00:14:46   Tiff's, Georgia's husband, and the other people were down at the other end of the table,

00:14:51   and I'm not sure who they were, but it was a crazy table.

00:14:53   Yeah, it was great.

00:14:55   And the 6+ came up.

00:14:56   Yeah, because Georgia has this incredible case, which has a little strap on the back.

00:15:02   So she holds it, she's able to put her fingers into the strap so she can more confidently

00:15:09   reach around the screen because it's not...

00:15:12   It's an elastic strap that's basically like a sticker so you can put it on any case or

00:15:16   even on the phone itself and it's this little elastic hand strap.

00:15:19   Have you ever played, there is like a game, like a garden game where you have like a big

00:15:26   circle of Velcro.

00:15:27   Yeah, oh yeah.

00:15:28   It reminded me of that and you throw the ball and you catch it.

00:15:30   I can't remember what it's called.

00:15:32   But that's what it reminded me of,

00:15:33   'cause you can just, you have it attached to your hand,

00:15:36   and everyone on the table is like,

00:15:37   "Whoa, all of this is magic!"

00:15:40   But I find it so interesting that this is coming up now.

00:15:44   Like the 6+ is back into all the podcasts

00:15:47   that we listen to, everyone's talking about it again.

00:15:48   It's because people are traveling.

00:15:50   So it's, the reason that the 6+ always made sense for me

00:15:55   is was the amount of commuting that I did.

00:15:57   And it still makes sense to me,

00:15:58   'cause when I do leave the house,

00:16:01   like

00:16:01   which you know i'm not all you go a long time when i'm almost today

00:16:05   so the good enough and i like to be able to use my phone for the whole day

00:16:09   and i'm really heavy i've been used

00:16:12   i'm very very frequently doing more than one thing like i'm listening to a

00:16:16   podcast playing game or listen to music reading twitter and flying around and

00:16:20   doing this is like i'd really push it

00:16:23   so that's why i like the battery makes so much sense in the screen makes so

00:16:26   much sense of you during reading on it

00:16:28   you said you were reading on the Kindle.

00:16:30   Yeah, I was just reading on the Kindle.

00:16:31   I mean, I've done a lot of using Twitter, just reading web articles and Nuzzle and using

00:16:36   things that Nuzzle finds for me.

00:16:40   So I'm reading articles, just not like a book.

00:16:42   I'm not using it for that.

00:16:45   I think the other part of it, what will be interesting to see is when the Apple Watch

00:16:49   comes out, then will it change even more opinions on how people use the 6 Plus?

00:16:54   Right.

00:16:55   less and it's staying in your pocket more, then the Apple Watch is an interesting justification

00:17:01   for the 6 Plus because you've got your quick interactions on the small device and then

00:17:05   when you really want to go, "Oh, here it comes!

00:17:08   Here comes the big device!" because now you're serious about something.

00:17:12   Because it makes sense to me from a logical perspective.

00:17:15   If you're using your phone in your hand less, you may as well have, when you do have it,

00:17:22   you have the maximum amount of everything you can have.

00:17:25   That's what makes sense to me, because if I'm using my watch to do a lot of interaction,

00:17:30   because that's how I expect, in theory, it would be, the majority of quick interactions

00:17:35   pulling out, checking something, responding to a message, should all be going on here

00:17:39   now on the watch.

00:17:40   Right.

00:17:41   Agreed.

00:17:42   So then in that case, it won't be such a problem that this isn't really a one-handed device.

00:17:45   Although somebody-

00:17:46   He said "here," by the way, and tapped his wrist.

00:17:49   And then tapped my pocket.

00:17:50   And then tapped his pocket, which is really good for me, because I'm here, but bad for

00:17:54   But that's what happens.

00:17:55   >> This is why I don't like to do videos.

00:17:57   People say, "Why do you do video when you record?"

00:18:00   Because it changes things.

00:18:01   >> Because then, oh, this happens to me when I'm on Leo Laporte's shows all the time, is

00:18:04   that I'm very well aware that they have an audio component and people can just listen

00:18:08   to the audio.

00:18:09   But they will always, and you find yourself doing it too, reference things that are visual.

00:18:14   Like, oh, you know, that's what it looks like.

00:18:17   And people listening to audio have no idea what you're talking about.

00:18:19   >> I'm like, "Yeah, Jason, look."

00:18:20   >> Yeah, right there.

00:18:21   I see.

00:18:22   That's your pocket.

00:18:23   I also thought it was funny that Georgia's thing was,

00:18:28   it's all in the eye of the beholder,

00:18:31   because a lot of people were like, "Oh, that's so cool."

00:18:33   And I sat there thinking, "See, that's the problem

00:18:36   "with the 6 Plus, is people are excited about sticking

00:18:40   "an elastic hand strap on the back like you can use it

00:18:44   "to catch a ball with Velcro."

00:18:47   I think that points out its flaw, but it also shows you

00:18:53   the enthusiasm people have for using it despite the fact that it's so huge because they get

00:18:58   so much else out of it.

00:18:59   So it's both of those things at once.

00:19:01   Someone did say something to me recently on Twitter which I found really interesting,

00:19:04   is that using the Apple Watch is a two-handed device.

00:19:09   Yeah because it's on your wrist and then you have to touch it with your other hand.

00:19:12   So it's like the convenience is you can look at things but interaction will always be two-handed.

00:19:18   Right although you're not holding it, anything in either hand, but yeah you always have to

00:19:22   to have the pointer and the… unless you are a contortionist.

00:19:26   I don't know, like you strap it to your shoulder or something, so you can just poke

00:19:30   your shoulder.

00:19:31   But like, that was an interesting thing to me.

00:19:34   But I think the majority of the benefit is just knowing what that vibration in my pocket

00:19:39   was about, which is why I love the pepper and I think it's why you love the pepper

00:19:42   as well.

00:19:44   And that's why for some people…

00:19:45   Or missing the vibration because it's not in your pocket.

00:19:48   Yeah, exactly.

00:19:49   So I mean, as we're getting closer and closer, I am becoming more and more excited for the

00:19:55   Apple Watch.

00:19:56   And I've found that the more that we talk about it, the more people talk about it, the

00:19:59   more excited we all get with the possibility of it.

00:20:02   Yeah, yeah.

00:20:03   I think it's got the chance, it's got the possibility to be really great.

00:20:09   Whether...

00:20:10   Well, I mean, it's going to be a first generation product and early software.

00:20:16   So I suspect that Apple will learn a lot.

00:20:20   So it'll be interesting to see how fully formed it is in the first go and what it changes

00:20:24   over time.

00:20:25   But it's got the potential to be really great, I think.

00:20:27   It's so interesting to me that we could be in a situation where these devices that we're

00:20:32   so used to using, we're now going to use it in a completely different way.

00:20:36   Yeah.

00:20:37   Like, I am so tied to this and this screen doing things on it all the time.

00:20:41   You touched his pocket again.

00:20:42   Yeah, I did it.

00:20:43   I can't help it.

00:20:45   I'm just really interested to think that that's going to shift.

00:20:49   Well, right now it's 100% of our walking around connecting to the internet.

00:20:54   It's a little bit like when we said phones and tablets are going to change how we use computers

00:21:00   because we won't need the computers for everything anymore.

00:21:03   This has the potential to do that with our smartphones where they're not going to go away,

00:21:07   but they become the hub of other devices that are using its internet connection even,

00:21:12   even, but are how we interact.

00:21:15   If you could shave off a third of your interactions with your phone and put them on the watch,

00:21:20   and that made them faster and simpler, that could be great.

00:21:24   But that is changing how you use your phone, because now you're not using your phone for

00:21:29   those purposes.

00:21:30   And that's really interesting.

00:21:31   Before the original iPhone came out, and when we knew what it could do and leading up to

00:21:35   it, I spent a lot of time thinking about, in my life, what are the things that I'm doing

00:21:40   I'm doing, like the things that I'm doing that I could do with the iPhone.

00:21:46   I see you sit and think, "Oh, this is good, but imagine if I had the iPhone for this."

00:21:50   And I'm now doing that with the watch.

00:21:52   We went to dinner and I was walking from my hotel and it was about a half hour walk.

00:21:57   I didn't know the route, so I was keeping my phone in my jacket pocket so I could take

00:22:01   it out and look, keep taking it out and looking.

00:22:03   And I was thinking if I had it on the watch for the location, for the walking stuff, it's

00:22:08   so much easier.

00:22:09   And plus I was in a, it was a perfectly nice area,

00:22:12   but it was an area I didn't know.

00:22:13   So I didn't want to keep taking my phone on my pocket.

00:22:15   - I know, yeah me too.

00:22:16   - Because I don't, I just don't know where I'm walking.

00:22:20   I don't know if I'm walking through a good part of Dublin

00:22:22   or a bad part of Dublin.

00:22:23   - Right.

00:22:24   - And I didn't want to keep having to do that.

00:22:25   So able to look at my watch would be nice.

00:22:27   And I have seen people like,

00:22:28   well you're now wearing this product, showing the world.

00:22:31   That is a definite thing. - That's true.

00:22:33   - And I wonder what that will be like.

00:22:34   'Cause I know whenever I've got,

00:22:36   like when I got the iPhone for the first time,

00:22:37   or got an iPad for the first time,

00:22:39   there is that like self, like I'm very conscious about the fact that I have this device that

00:22:47   when people see it they'll be like "oh he's got the new Apple thing" but now it's like

00:22:52   you won't be able to miss the watch because it'll be in front of everyone because it's

00:22:55   attached to your body.

00:22:56   Yeah then again it's a watch and people wear watches so there's that which is it's not

00:23:01   a new, it's a new product but it's in an old class so you'll have to pay closer attention

00:23:08   to what it is.

00:23:12   And so at that point it's like, yes, if a watch thief is looking for the expensive

00:23:17   watches and then trying to rip them off your wrist, they'll notice that you have an Apple

00:23:21   watch.

00:23:23   But a lot of people may just not even notice because it's just a watch.

00:23:27   So before we move on, because I want to talk about Steve Gill's book, because you mentioned

00:23:30   that there was one thing, you said you listen to music when you read.

00:23:32   Yes.

00:23:33   Do you listen to music with lyrics?

00:23:35   Yes.

00:23:36   Interesting.

00:23:37   when I work, too, when I write. And we were talking about this, you get a bunch of writers

00:23:41   and programmers together, and this always comes up. Marco and I were talking about listening

00:23:49   to music versus listening to podcasts and audiobooks, and how Tiff can listen to audiobooks

00:23:58   and podcasts while she's working because she's editing photos. And I think there's truth

00:24:06   in saying that they're using visual parts of your brain, and your speech centers and

00:24:12   your language centers are a different part of your brain, and that's when things get

00:24:15   complicated is when you have a collision.

00:24:18   And so everybody—I know people who can't listen to music when they're writing or

00:24:23   reading.

00:24:24   I know people who can't listen to music with lyrics.

00:24:25   For me—and I'm sure I've said this before somewhere—what I need is to listen to things

00:24:34   I know by heart.

00:24:35   So, or things without lyrics is fine too, but what I can't do is download the new

00:24:43   Death Cab for Cutie album.

00:24:45   See, I'm being timely with the kids.

00:24:47   Federico will be happy.

00:24:50   I can't download that album and just start listening to it as I'm writing because I

00:24:56   will be distracted by the songs.

00:25:00   But once I know them, they fade into the background and it's just good energy and I know what

00:25:04   all the songs are and I know how they feel, but I'm not tuned into the detail anymore,

00:25:12   and that makes the difference for me.

00:25:13   So yes, I put on a playlist, and if it's not working for me, I'll put on a different

00:25:18   playlist because it needs to sort of fit my mood too.

00:25:21   But I have no problem with the words thing, and I know some people that bothers them,

00:25:25   but I can write with music.

00:25:26   In fact, I mean, I wrote my first NaNoWriMo novel that I did.

00:25:32   I wrote 100,000 words with nothing but "image and heap" and "say anything" on repeat.

00:25:39   So if I was feeling in one mood, it would be the "image and heap" electronic stuff,

00:25:44   and if I was feeling in another mood, it was the punk rock.

00:25:47   And I wrote the whole book that way.

00:25:50   And that's all music with lyrics, but I knew it by heart, and it was more about the

00:25:54   mood.

00:25:55   What about you?

00:25:57   I can listen to music with lyrics when I write.

00:26:01   So when I write scripts and stuff, but I tend to listen to things that pump me up to keep

00:26:07   the energy going.

00:26:08   So that tends to be like Chiptune music.

00:26:11   So they are a sponsor, but Bravewave are a great little record label that they've created

00:26:16   a few albums that are like this.

00:26:17   They work with video game composers.

00:26:20   And that's the "you're behind the app" theme.

00:26:24   They created the music as well, but their stuff is really fast-paced and upbeat, and

00:26:29   that helps me go through stuff.

00:26:31   But that goes to what I was saying about the mood, too, is that I can't just put on anything.

00:26:36   Sometimes a morning will come and I'll have some nice, friendly, smooth, easy pop stuff,

00:26:46   and I'll think to myself, "No, I'm in a blacker mood than that," and I'll put on my "Who

00:26:52   Husker Du, Bob Mould, Playlist, which is all just sort of like loud guitars and shouting.

00:26:56   It's like, "Yes, that's what I need now.

00:26:58   I need the loud guitars and the shouting this morning."

00:27:01   There's a song called "Something I Learned Today" by Husker Du, which is a – yeah,

00:27:09   if I want to get up in the morning and be energetic and also angry, the catharsis that

00:27:15   that song and songs like that provide is – I mean, music is kind of a drug in that way.

00:27:21   It's a mood enhancer, and I definitely use it that way.

00:27:27   I did get to the point when I was in my old job that I could listen to podcasts whilst

00:27:31   writing a little bit.

00:27:33   Wow.

00:27:34   Because it was out of necessity.

00:27:35   I really wanted to listen to podcasts so I could do basic copywriting and just responding

00:27:40   to emails and stuff when listening.

00:27:43   Thus proving that marketing does not activate any of the language centers of your brain.

00:27:48   On that note…

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00:30:07   thank you so much to push over supporting this show don't check them

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00:30:10   and thanks for helping us out but we have them

00:30:13   that you are uh... time of your favorite feature bush one i nodded

00:30:16   that was also really funny 'cause no one can see that

00:30:19   i was agreeing with you yeah i like that's a little easier to get the

00:30:22   reinforcement yeah punch the air

00:30:24   who

00:30:25   uh...

00:30:26   so still with the drug book how far

00:30:29   so this is the coming steve jobs yep which is this new book

00:30:32   written by branch lender and rick too

00:30:35   telly something that's lee i'd not only telly there is a lot of uh... business

00:30:40   writers and people who work at the four bs and fast companies com

00:31:04   the podcast that John Gruber moderated with them at the Apple Store.

00:31:08   Yeah, in the style of your podcast at the Apple Store, Apple is doing this more where

00:31:13   they're creating these podcasts for Apple in-store events, and there's a video and audio

00:31:18   version of John Gruber interviewing the authors on stage at the Apple Store.

00:31:22   Which is really good, and it adds a little bit of insight into the book.

00:31:26   And our friend John, who can't be here with us because of his medical reasons, he can

00:31:30   take the train to New York.

00:31:31   Indeed.

00:31:32   to see it was good to see him and we miss him here. So you're about halfway through? Yeah, I would say

00:31:37   that. I'm almost at 50%. I'm listening to the audiobook and I'm about halfway through as well.

00:31:42   Yeah. Yay, half read books, yay. But I still feel like there's enough in this point to talk about.

00:31:50   Well, we've got him through Next and the release of Toy Story. Yeah, that's where I'm at. And it's

00:31:59   just to the... you know, we're at the point now where Apple...

00:32:04   I'm reading the part where Apple is looking for a replacement operating

00:32:08   system

00:32:09   because Copeland and all their other attempts have failed and

00:32:12   the way they portray it is that Windows 95 has upped the game and Apple is

00:32:16   far behind.

00:32:18   I think that maybe overstates it a little bit,

00:32:21   but I remember that era. We've reached the point where I was

00:32:24   working at a Mac magazine, so I remember this era

00:32:29   really well so it's kind of fun it's like oh now we're up to now we're up to

00:32:32   the point where i was there for this stuff

00:32:35   uh... when apple was desperately looking for a new operating system

00:32:40   we're going to talk a little bit about the book and our opinions and feelings

00:32:43   on it like you just mentioned if you haven't read it it's fine

00:32:46   like we're just talking about what

00:32:48   there's no spoiler alert yes the job sells next to apple comes back to apple

00:32:53   and becomes the c_e_o_ home because i know that i i i i was thinking oh i

00:32:56   I don't want to have any of anything spoiled.

00:32:59   But I think, I mean, without knowing,

00:33:01   I think a lot of the maybe more interesting tidbits

00:33:03   like this will be later in the book, if there are any.

00:33:06   - Right.

00:33:07   - Because this stuff, it's like,

00:33:09   it's effectively ancient well-known history.

00:33:11   Like everything that's in here so far that I've read,

00:33:14   it's just a retelling of a story that I know.

00:33:17   But the difference is,

00:33:18   'cause I kind of, with the Isaacson book,

00:33:20   I only got about two thirds through

00:33:22   and I couldn't continue.

00:33:24   So it's effectively the same amount of story.

00:33:26   But this book tells the story in an interesting and compelling way, I find.

00:33:31   I agree.

00:33:32   I think the Isaacson book gets weighted down.

00:33:34   It's bloated.

00:33:35   I think he felt like he had to get everything out there because he felt like he was writing

00:33:39   the definitive book.

00:33:42   And I think, ironically, that it is one of the reasons why it's not the definitive book.

00:33:49   And, you know, famously, of course, John Siracusa wrote about this a lot, or spoke about it

00:33:55   a lot on the hypercritical, but yeah, my takeaway for the Steve Jobs book was, the Isaacson

00:34:07   book was that it was a good book to be used as reference for the definitive Steve Jobs

00:34:11   book that will be written in 20 years, not the definitive Steve Jobs book.

00:34:17   But I think Isaacson was weighted down by that.

00:34:19   And these guys are freed by the fact that the Isaacson book exists to be able to know

00:34:25   that that's out in the world and that they don't have to do everything, but they can

00:34:29   tell the story the way they want to tell it.

00:34:31   Because the benefit that they have, that they seem to have that maybe other people don't,

00:34:35   is I think it's Brent, I believe that it's Brent Schindler, Schlender, who has all the

00:34:44   tapes, right?

00:34:45   Yeah, well, he's got the history of interviews, and that's why it's written in English.

00:34:49   first person with him as the eye is because he had the relationship with Steve Jobs.

00:34:55   Yeah. So there is like this... It's interesting to hear them talk about the process of the book

00:35:02   in the podcast that they did, because it seems like it was just a case of,

00:35:06   we started writing an article and then it was like, I want to just keep going because there's

00:35:12   so much here. Because he had all these tapes that hadn't been used. And there's one thing that I

00:35:16   talk about which I found was interesting. I think Gruber asked him, "Do you feel comfortable about

00:35:22   publishing things that are off the record now? Is there a statute of limitations?" And Schlender

00:35:29   was like... He's like a German slender. It's like he said, "I don't feel like I have published

00:35:36   anything that is wrong now." There are things that we spoke about that I wouldn't have published then,

00:35:44   But it's been so long, and it doesn't affect anything, but now it's interesting information

00:35:48   to have.

00:35:49   Yeah, and I think there's a sense when you're talking about Steve Jobs and Apple that this

00:35:53   is history, and you don't want the information you've got to be lost.

00:35:59   At some point people should talk about what happened, because we should know what happened,

00:36:03   and not just let the muddy accounts of the day be the thing that stands forever about

00:36:11   Who did what and how did this period of technology history happen?

00:36:15   So one of the things I'm taking away from the book, and I don't know if this is a good

00:36:18   thing or a bad thing for the book existing in history, compared to the Isaacson book

00:36:23   there is an emotional connection that I feel when reading this book that these guys had

00:36:28   for Steve.

00:36:29   And it might be partly because it's in the first person, which is a really interesting

00:36:32   way of telling the story.

00:36:34   But the Isaacson book feels more like he had an opinion that you could feel, but he was

00:36:39   at least attempting to be like this is what happened, these are the facts, but I feel

00:36:43   like in this book, the voice in the book, because it's like a combination of the two

00:36:48   of them, has an emotional connection because they try to explain away some of Steve's

00:36:54   emotions.

00:36:55   Right, this is a book with a strong point of view about the character arc, if you will,

00:37:03   of Steve Jobs' life.

00:37:05   This is a book that believes, not like, "Well, here are the facts.

00:37:09   Isn't he an interesting set of contradictions?"

00:37:11   But he was a genius, but he was a jerk.

00:37:15   That's very much what the Isaacson book does.

00:37:18   This book is like, "No, here's what we think this is," which is, he was a very young executive.

00:37:26   He never had a good mentor and believed, and was too full of himself, and didn't have anybody

00:37:33   to mentor him.

00:37:34   Therefore, all his worst qualities were enhanced, were magnified.

00:37:41   And then through chance with Pixar, he finally found people whose behavior he could model,

00:37:48   who were so talented that he couldn't discount them as not being as great as he was, and

00:37:54   those were Ed Catmull and John Lasseter.

00:37:57   And that by going through the failure at Next, by learning about management and creativity

00:38:03   from the way that Lasseter and Catmull worked at Pixar, where he was more hands-off, because

00:38:09   he wasn't in the creative process, he was just the owner of the company, that when he

00:38:14   returned to Apple, he had spent--and by dealing with Disney, I suppose, too, when they started

00:38:21   working there, although with Jeffrey Kansenberg that was kind of a fraught relationship--but

00:38:26   these are the lessons that led Steve Jobs to be a different guy when he came back to

00:38:30   to Apple, and although he had a lot of the same questionable attributes, they were muted,

00:38:36   they were mellowed.

00:38:38   He had finally learned the things that, you know, imagine if he had learned them back,

00:38:45   imagine if instead of Scully they had hired a CEO at Apple who truly could have been more

00:38:49   of a mentor for jobs and said, "Look, I know you're going to be the CEO eventually.

00:38:55   Let me help you get there and show you the way," and that wasn't Scully.

00:38:59   And so there's a sense of that lost opportunity, but the sense that in the end we got the Steve

00:39:04   Jobs we got at the end because of this journey that he went on, and that he completed it.

00:39:08   And that all the stories that we hear now about the bad behavior of Steve Jobs, the

00:39:12   really bad stuff, that narrative is from when he was first at Apple.

00:39:17   And that Steve, in the latter days at Apple, was the same guy, but had learned a lot and

00:39:23   progressed.

00:39:24   And, you know, is that true or not?

00:39:26   I don't know.

00:39:27   to be their claim here. That's the story that they're telling of a guy who learned and grew,

00:39:33   but it took him a while to find somebody to help him grow.

00:39:36   How do you feel about Apple's kind of blessing? Like reading this book, like, because it's not,

00:39:46   I mean, on the whole, it is so far positive about Steve, but it doesn't hide his problems.

00:39:52   No, the, I mean, like I said, the story they're trying to tell is that Steve was somebody who has,

00:39:56   You know, he had personality issues.

00:39:59   He yells at people and is… they said he's a spoiled kid who was never told no.

00:40:05   And his talent let him go a long way without ever hearing anybody say no.

00:40:11   And that's one of the reasons they sort of created a monster with this guy.

00:40:15   And it took him a long time to kind of turn that around and be more productive.

00:40:21   So I can see how from the perspective of Apple and from Steve's friends that they like this

00:40:28   because it shows that he progressed as a human and was not that.

00:40:35   They talk a little bit about the fact that he denied the parentage of Lisa, his daughter,

00:40:42   from a prior relationship to his marriage.

00:40:47   And it's true.

00:40:49   And it was baffling.

00:40:51   thinks of it as, including I think his friends, as like the worst thing he ever did in his life.

00:40:57   But this book does point out, and they're not apologizing for it, but that was a piece of

00:41:03   terrible behavior that he made as a 23-year-old man. I've heard my other book that I really enjoy,

00:41:12   it's called The Second Coming of Steve Jobs. Have you read this? Yeah. By Alan Deutschman. I've

00:41:16   listened to it a few times. It's fantastic, but it only goes up to a certain point,

00:41:19   but they focus on this. Obviously the movie, the Pirates of the Confounding, everyone focuses

00:41:25   on this. And they say, everybody points to this and says, "This is why he is a nasty man."

00:41:31   Right.

00:41:32   But he was like in his early 20s, he didn't know what to do.

00:41:35   Can we all, are all of us going to be held to our worst behavior when we were 23?

00:41:41   That's, I mean, again, sure, if you kill somebody or something like that,

00:41:48   And there's nobody denying that it was ridiculous behavior.

00:41:50   No, I'm not excusing it in any way.

00:41:52   But, you know, for the full picture of a man, he lived a lot longer.

00:41:56   And his relationship with Lisa changed dramatically.

00:42:00   And she lived with him and his young kids and his wife.

00:42:04   And they had a difficult relationship. But...

00:42:08   Ooh.

00:42:10   The wolves are coming for us, Myke.

00:42:12   That was a weird noise.

00:42:14   Is that the wind? It must just be the wind. Winter is coming. It does look like the out there.

00:42:21   I think the reason that Apple authorized this in their own way, authorized that people talk on the record about it,

00:42:31   Apple employees who knew Steve, is that they felt like it painted a fuller picture of the whole man and his journey.

00:42:39   And I can see why that was important to them, that they don't like the narrative that Jobs

00:42:44   was always that guy, that awful guy.

00:42:49   And this book wants to say, "Yes, he was that awful guy, but he grew."

00:42:55   And I don't know whether that's a true story or whether that's a whitewash.

00:42:59   My feeling is that everybody's more complicated than the simplicity of a story in a book.

00:43:08   I can see why Apple would like this portrayal because it's more human,

00:43:14   whereas even the Isaacson book, there's sort of like a lot of late detail from late conversations with Steve,

00:43:22   and then there's the kind of typical story arc of Steve Jobs.

00:43:25   And the thesis of this book really makes it different.

00:43:29   He did grow and progress and was somebody who was kind of broken

00:43:33   because he never had a mentor who could really like, say, "Steve, this is how you perform

00:43:42   as an adult in business," and he never had that.

00:43:45   I think the title of the book kind of says it all.

00:43:48   We're in the phase at the moment, the becoming part.

00:43:52   Everything leading up to creating the man who could understand what he needed to do

00:43:56   and how he needed to run things.

00:43:58   And how can you reconcile that childish guy who worked on the Mac project and started

00:44:07   Next and has these legendary blowups, how do you reconcile that man to the sainted,

00:44:14   turtleneck guy who brings out all these products?

00:44:17   And a lot of the coverage of Steve Jobs is like the strange contradictions of Steve Jobs.

00:44:22   And what this book says is it's not a contradiction, it's a progression of his life.

00:44:27   He started as that guy and became this guy, and that wasn't just good PR, that was his

00:44:33   growth.

00:44:35   So it's interesting, I find little bits that are wrong here and there.

00:44:43   Most troubling to me as the creator of SixColors.com is their reference to Apple's five-color

00:44:49   rainbow.

00:44:50   What?

00:44:51   One of the ones that Stephen pointed out was like they were saying about the the iBooks came in

00:44:56   White plastic or black. Yeah, and that was that was the man

00:45:00   I look like I don't know that it's little the little things but they drive us crazy

00:45:05   Yeah, because they're these little details. You said something really interesting when we talked about this about

00:45:10   Where these guys come from? Yeah, they're business. They're business journalists and

00:45:15   they

00:45:17   So there's a line about the early 90s where they say Apple had become completely irrelevant.

00:45:22   And they bring this up a few times.

00:45:24   Yeah, and it made me furious because that's when I became a Mac user and started working in this business, was in the early 90s.

00:45:33   And I will grant you, not the best time for Apple, and it led them to a cliff, but I think they're, one, I think they're guilty of the same compression that so many people are,

00:45:42   You really want to fast forward to the end of the Apple story where Steve Jobs comes back.

00:45:46   But, you know, under Scully, Apple motored along for quite a while, doing a pretty good job,

00:45:54   and built a huge culture of Mac users. Yes, we were the 7%ers.

00:46:00   But that was a great market to be in, the magazines were flourishing, people loved the Mac.

00:46:05   It was an alternative platform, but it was a great time.

00:46:08   And only in the mid-90s did things start to fall apart.

00:46:12   And if you ignore the ten years before that,

00:46:16   I think you misstate Apple, misunderstand that story.

00:46:20   But these guys are financial, they're business journalists.

00:46:24   And so, you know, we talk about things like what the McElope writes about these days,

00:46:28   about people covering Apple and totally missing what Apple's about. I gotta say it,

00:46:32   I think these guys were those guys in the 90s. They considered Apple

00:46:36   irrelevant because Apple didn't have enough market share, because big business didn't

00:46:42   use Apple computers.

00:46:43   They would have the Macs in the art department.

00:46:46   The designers would use them, but every other PC that was being sold was a Windows PC.

00:46:51   And so from their perspective, Apple lost, because the only way Apple could win that

00:46:55   is by having every computer in business be a Mac.

00:46:59   And that was totally not what happened.

00:47:02   I would argue that I think that was never a possibility, at least not since the early

00:47:06   days.

00:47:07   And in fact, you would say, "Oh, okay, so what you're really saying, if we extract

00:47:11   this argument even further, what you're really saying is Apple should have licensed

00:47:14   Mac OS like Microsoft did, and then they could have been Microsoft, but then they would have

00:47:20   been Microsoft and they wouldn't have been Apple."

00:47:22   So I think it's not an argument that really is very strong.

00:47:27   And the fact that they just assume it, that Apple was irrelevant, is what they're really

00:47:31   saying is Apple wasn't Windows. Apple didn't do what Microsoft did. And from a business

00:47:35   standpoint it's totally true. Microsoft grew and was huge and Apple didn't. But I don't

00:47:40   think that's irrelevant, see? I think it's irrelevant if you write for Fortune magazine.

00:47:44   There's one point where after saying that Apple was irrelevant, because they're talking

00:47:49   about gates, and then Shlender says that he took a job in Tokyo because there was nothing

00:47:55   happening in Silicon Valley anymore because it was just Microsoft and Intel just trundling

00:48:01   along.

00:48:02   Right, and if that's all you're looking for is change in the big global PC industry, I

00:48:08   guess you could say that was boring.

00:48:11   But I think that misstates it.

00:48:15   You jump over things like the PowerBooks.

00:48:16   The first PowerBooks, that was all under Scully, the PowerBooks, and people loved those.

00:48:20   Those were the talk of, those were the first laptops that people really loved.

00:48:25   That Apple, again, they weren't the first laptops at all, but they were the ones that

00:48:29   became like, I remember there was stories about movie executives being seen at Los Angeles

00:48:37   area restaurants with their power books doing work, and it was this, "Ooh, it's so fancy."

00:48:43   I mean, there was a lot in there that is glossed over, so I think that's a missing piece of

00:48:48   Apple story here is that it's really easy to throw Scully under the bus and

00:48:53   say his whole reign was a disaster, but you know there was a lot of success

00:48:57   there of a sort. It was not the Microsoft success, but the Mac... I thought, you know,

00:49:04   it's weird to think that these guys consider the time that I became a Mac

00:49:08   user, loved the Mac, bought a bunch of Macs, became a person who wrote about the

00:49:13   Mac, and have them just say it was irrelevant. That whole period was just a

00:49:18   period of irrelevancy because it sure didn't feel like that to me.

00:49:21   Does that hurt you a little bit?

00:49:23   Well, what it brings back is it brings back the time when people would say, "Come on,

00:49:28   Mac only has 10% of the market, so you are irrelevant."

00:49:32   And the answer is, "But the 10% are the people who know better."

00:49:35   It's the best 10%.

00:49:37   Yeah, it's the best 10%.

00:49:39   Absolutely.

00:49:40   And we loved it.

00:49:41   And it was a minority platform, and we were the ones who wanted something that wasn't

00:49:47   the usual computer and we loved the Mac.

00:49:51   It's actually a really nice tidbit that the book has about how Fred Anderson, the CFO,

00:49:55   who was brought back right as the company's about to go out of business, one of the reasons

00:49:59   he took the job is that he and his wife were huge Mac heads.

00:50:02   They just loved the Mac.

00:50:04   And they thought, "We can get to go back to California where they were from," and they

00:50:08   loved Apple.

00:50:09   And it's like, there was a lot of passion for Apple.

00:50:11   They make it seem like Apple's passion was like in '85 and then it was over and they

00:50:16   were a failure and they just hung on for the next 12 years, which is just wrong.

00:50:22   But I understand their perspective, because they're business guys.

00:50:25   They're business journalists.

00:50:26   And for them, there was no story there, because Bill Gates won and Steve Jobs didn't.

00:50:32   But in general, I do like their perspective.

00:50:34   I do.

00:50:35   You know, they were there, and that helps a lot, because like I said, they have a level

00:50:40   of understanding of some of this material that Isaacson doesn't.

00:50:45   This is not the story of like from a Mac user's perspective, but it is understanding the industry

00:50:51   at that time in a way that Walter Isaacson doesn't because he was not interested in this

00:50:54   industry at that time.

00:50:56   You may be biased, but do you think there's still space for the third book?

00:50:59   Like the book from someone from your perspective?

00:51:01   Oh, there's –

00:51:02   Your book, for example.

00:51:03   Yes, my book.

00:51:04   Sure, sure.

00:51:05   I'd like to announce I'm writing a book.

00:51:08   There is space for a lot of books, although I admit that like a lot of people, I'm kind

00:51:12   of giving Steve Jobs fatigue.

00:51:13   Yeah.

00:51:14   need another one for like five years. I and I want what I think I want is yeah in in 10 years

00:51:23   I want a good book that synthesizes the reporting from these other books and tries to with the

00:51:30   perspective of 10 more years or 20 more years understand this era and and what Apple meant in it

00:51:38   and I suspect you know of course we'll get that at some point yeah I do think there's more to say

00:51:44   about Apple's history, and in fact the irony of the Steve Jobs, the Ashton

00:51:51   Kutcher movie is that the part that I thought was the most interesting was not

00:51:57   about Steve Jobs, but was about Apple. It was the story of Apple. And I

00:52:02   feel like, strangely, Steve Jobs has eclipsed the Apple story, and it goes to

00:52:08   things like compressing his time when he was gone. There are some really great

00:52:12   great stories about the story arc of Apple, and instead of the founding and then you peel

00:52:18   away with Steve to next and then he comes back and saves the company, I'd kind of like

00:52:24   more biographies, and there's some, but I kind of like more of the story arc of Apple,

00:52:30   where it meanders and then it finally catastrophically loses its way and then Steve comes back.

00:52:37   What if we stick with that character?

00:52:38   I don't know a lot of what happened when Steve went away, because all of the books

00:52:42   go with him.

00:52:43   Nobody wants to talk about Scully and Spindler and Emilio.

00:52:47   And again, Scully was most of that time.

00:52:51   When I started as an intern at MacUser was when the Newton came out.

00:52:55   Newton was Scully's baby.

00:52:56   So I started in this business with Scully as the CEO, and I became a MacUser with Scully

00:53:02   running Apple.

00:53:03   So I'm not a John Sculley defender by any stretch of the imagination, but the fact that

00:53:08   you cannot pretend that that era wasn't relevant in some way.

00:53:13   And so I'd like to hear more about that.

00:53:16   I think we've let Steve Jobs kind of overshadow this other interesting story, which is this

00:53:21   company that did some great things and then lost its way and then was reborn.

00:53:28   I'm becoming more and more interested in the Tim Cook story, because he—

00:53:32   It's going to be another great chapter, isn't it?

00:53:34   It's fascinating.

00:53:35   Did you see, he's giving his fortune away?

00:53:37   Did you see this?

00:53:38   Yeah.

00:53:39   Other than he's going to put his nephew through college.

00:53:40   I want to know more about Tim Cook.

00:53:42   Yeah.

00:53:43   Well, that's why I said about 20 years from now or 10 years from now that we're going

00:53:46   to be able to get the story of Apple, and it's going to be a much broader story.

00:53:49   It's not just going to be Apple coming up and losing its way and Steve Jobs coming back

00:53:53   and having this amazing run, but it's going to have things that haven't happened yet.

00:53:58   It's going to tell us the story of Tim Cook.

00:54:00   And depending on how things go and the way of all things, it's probably going to tell

00:54:04   us how Apple's incredibly successful period ended and what were the things that made it

00:54:09   end or change into becoming the great car manufacturer that we all know it as today

00:54:15   in the year 2030.

00:54:16   They used to make smart phones.

00:54:17   They used to make watches.

00:54:19   And before that, music players and jukeboxes.

00:54:22   And now they make cars.

00:54:24   And now they make cars and hoverboards.

00:54:26   Yeah.

00:54:27   But I think Tim Cook's story will be like the unbelievable rise and then the stop.

00:54:37   Because it has to stop.

00:54:39   Either that or it will just continue to transform into other things and be a different company,

00:54:46   which is fine.

00:54:49   It's inevitable, right?

00:54:50   We talked about this before.

00:54:51   I actually think that's one of the reasons why the car thing is happening and why Google

00:54:54   Google does the crazy things it does.

00:54:59   People are mortal, but businesses are potentially immortal.

00:55:05   The reason businesses are mortal is because they don't change and they have this natural

00:55:09   kind of progression.

00:55:11   The way that you become immortal as a business or at least extend your lifespan is by changing

00:55:16   into something different and businesses can do that.

00:55:19   The people at Apple and Google are very smart, and they spend a lot of time thinking about

00:55:25   what are other things we can do to extend the life of this business by adding new business.

00:55:29   Instead of stopping where we are and taking all this money, and then we'll all retire,

00:55:33   and the new people will come in and not know what the hell they're doing, and that'll be

00:55:36   the end of it.

00:55:38   Let's look out 20 years and say, "Should we be making cars?

00:55:41   In 20 years, could we be one of the leading car manufacturers in a world of smart electric

00:55:45   cars that drive themselves and fly, maybe, and are submarines that you can – whatever

00:55:50   it is.

00:55:51   And I believe they are doing that.

00:55:53   So that's the thing.

00:55:54   Apple's era of now will end, and that'll happen whether or not there's another era

00:56:00   beyond it.

00:56:01   Should take a break, do some awesome upgrades.

00:56:03   Yeah, let's do it.

00:56:04   Let's do an Ask to Upgrade, as almost always, brought to you by MailRoute, my pals.

00:56:10   Now Myke can watch me punch the air as I read about MailRoute.

00:56:14   I told you about them before, so let me explain it to you again.

00:56:18   If you don't know how it works, it's really clever.

00:56:20   MailRoute is a service that lives in the cloud.

00:56:23   You don't have to install any hardware and software on your servers.

00:56:26   What you do is you point what are called MX records, which is basically in the domain

00:56:30   name system, that's the thing that says, "Here's where all the email for my domain

00:56:33   goes."

00:56:34   You point those at MailRoute instead of your server.

00:56:36   So all of the stuff that's coming in that's inbound from spammers, inbound from people

00:56:40   who are trying to spread viruses, and also bounced email, a lot of times spammers will

00:56:44   harvest your email address and use it as the "from" address on their spam and you get suddenly

00:56:48   you're like, "Why am I getting all this bounced email that I didn't send and it all looks

00:56:52   like spam?"

00:56:53   Well, all that stuff goes to MailRoute instead of your server.

00:56:56   Your server isn't burdened by it.

00:56:58   MailRoute has intelligent software that looks at it, analyzes it.

00:57:01   It gets all the spam, right?

00:57:03   From all the different people.

00:57:04   So it knows what spam looks like.

00:57:06   It pulls it all out.

00:57:07   And then it basically just turns around and passes that mail on.

00:57:11   I'm gesturing with my hands and Myke is laughing.

00:57:13   It turns that around and passes that mail on to your mail server.

00:57:17   Your mail server never sees the junk.

00:57:20   They just get the good stuff.

00:57:21   It's good for your server because your server doesn't have to see the bad stuff, and it's

00:57:25   good for you because that junk is not in your inbox.

00:57:29   It's easy to set up large universities and corporations.

00:57:32   Trust it.

00:57:34   As a desktop user, the interface is super simple.

00:57:36   I get a little spam digest that tells me what spam I've received and has been filtered out.

00:57:41   With one click, I can automatically deliver it.

00:57:43   If it is good, that rarely happens, but it does happen sometimes, and it will automatically

00:57:47   whitelist that person.

00:57:48   So their mail will always get through after that point.

00:57:52   So it's super easy.

00:57:53   And if you're an email administrator or an IT professional, they've got all the tools

00:57:57   for you in mind.

00:57:58   Let's say it with me.

00:57:59   There is an API for account management, support for LDAP and active relay.

00:58:03   They have TLS, outbound relay, and mail bagging.

00:58:07   Mail bagging.

00:58:08   The best.

00:58:09   High five for mail bagging.

00:58:10   This is the stuff you want if you're an admin from the people who handle your mail.

00:58:17   So you can remove spam from your life for good by going to mailroute.net/upgrade.

00:58:23   That will get you a free trial, and if you decide to keep MailRoute, you'll get 10% off

00:58:28   of your bill for the lifetime of your account just by being one of our pals and going to

00:58:33   mailroute.net/upgrade.

00:58:36   So thank you once again to MailRoute for keeping my inbox clear of spam and for being a good

00:58:41   friend and sponsor and supporter of what we do here at Upgrade.

00:58:44   And introducing me to mailbagging.

00:58:46   Yes.

00:58:47   Which I love dearly.

00:58:49   Maybe the Upgrade t-shirt should just say "Mailbagging."

00:58:54   That's interesting.

00:58:55   I wonder if MailRoute would sponsor the Upgrade t-shirt and we could just practically give

00:59:00   them away at that point.

00:59:01   Brought to you by...

00:59:02   So let's do some Ask Upgrades.

00:59:06   So we have @the3storiessofar on Twitter.

00:59:10   I keep hearing podcasts that say definitively that no adapters come with the MacBook.

00:59:14   Is that confirmed for sure?

00:59:16   Jason, please break some hearts.

00:59:17   Yes, if you look on the MacBook page, it's actually in there.

00:59:21   They say "What's in the box?"

00:59:23   And it's the power block that goes to the wall, a USB-C cable, and a MacBook.

00:59:31   That's it.

00:59:32   You have to buy them yourselves and unfortunately they will set you back a pretty penny.

00:59:37   It does mean that the cable is attached to the little block.

00:59:43   That's a USB-C cable.

00:59:45   So it's detachable on either end, which is different from how they work now.

00:59:51   So right now when you buy a MacBook Power cable you've got the block and the block runs

00:59:56   to your MagSafe.

00:59:57   And it's just part of it.

00:59:59   this they're connected on both ends like with your iPad it's got a plug on both

01:00:04   ends so you could pull it off and plug that into a battery or plug that into a

01:00:10   USB charger which would probably not really charge it because it wouldn't

01:00:13   have enough if it was a USB C connector so it's a little more versatile that way

01:00:18   see the thing I find interesting in that way is eventually all of our wall

01:00:23   adapters will be USB C right in theory like even the iPhone ones in theory it

01:00:28   USB-C to Lightning. So you could just have those plugged in your house and just put the

01:00:33   cable in that you need. That makes it very different. And also, if it detaches, that

01:00:38   could be a... I don't know, maybe you know how firm that connection is.

01:00:44   I don't know.

01:00:45   Because that could be the MagSafe problem.

01:00:46   That could be another place where you could have it break away.

01:00:50   But if it just comes out of the wall, it might come out relatively easily. I have to say

01:00:54   The idea of the MagSafe on the power brick seems like a disaster to me.

01:00:58   Because I would knock that out all the time, and then you'd get on the desk, I wouldn't

01:01:01   want that.

01:01:02   But we'll see.

01:01:03   I'm still interested to see what happens with the MagSafe stuff.

01:01:06   I didn't know that was a cable that went into the...

01:01:09   We're going into a weird place with this, but we will come out the other side eventually.

01:01:12   But it's going to be weird.

01:01:14   Another one of the questions that we had was about...

01:01:17   It was somebody we actually asked last week.

01:01:19   He was asking about iOS devices, including a standard USB cable.

01:01:22   He said, "I was thinking about charging more than syncing," because we said, "Well,

01:01:25   why do you even sync anymore?"

01:01:27   I think this is a really weird thing that right now, if you buy a MacBook and you want

01:01:33   to charge from a device, you'll need to buy an adapter.

01:01:38   What I would say is Apple's argument would be, "Don't charge from a device."

01:01:43   Charge from the wall.

01:01:44   Just charge from the wall.

01:01:45   I know people do charge their iPhones from their Macs, and that's fine, but I think

01:01:50   And what Apple is saying is, "Look, if you're somewhere where your Mac is plugged in, your

01:01:55   phone can be plugged in."

01:01:56   I do get the fact that if your Mac has a battery and your phone is about to die, you can actually

01:02:02   steal power from your Mac's battery.

01:02:05   That seems like an edge case, and at that point, you pack an adapter.

01:02:09   You know what I think it would say is, "The battery will last you all day on both devices."

01:02:13   Like that's, you know.

01:02:14   That would be nice.

01:02:15   That's the idea.

01:02:16   their message is, well, you don't need to do it because that lasts for ten hours, and

01:02:20   that lasts for ten hours, so you're done.

01:02:21   Right, and they feel the primary use case for charging is charging from the wall, not

01:02:26   plugging it into a device to charge.

01:02:28   But I agree, if Apple has this mixed set of USB-C and not USB-C, at some point they're

01:02:35   going to need to put a USB-C to Lightning cable in the box of the iPhone, at which point

01:02:41   everybody who doesn't have a USB-C Mac is going to freak out, or they're going to have

01:02:45   to offer some sort of swap program where you can come in and trade it in for one, but it's

01:02:51   going to be a mess.

01:02:53   It's going to be a mess for a little while because they can't switch without...

01:02:58   I think they will be late to switch because every existing computer is going to suddenly

01:03:03   not connect to it.

01:03:06   But maybe it doesn't matter if they say, "Look, get an adapter or just plug it into the wall

01:03:10   and don't worry about attaching it to a computer."

01:03:12   when the iPod went from Firewire to USB, can you remember if you got both cables in the box?

01:03:16   Uhhhhh...

01:03:19   Po. I mean probably because they used to include a lot in the box. They did, they did.

01:03:24   The first iPod had a case. The remote, the remote that you get, you can clip on.

01:03:28   I love the clip on remote. That was great. They used to get a dock as well. Yeah, a dock, a case.

01:03:32   Loads of stuff in the box. Yeah, that got all thrown out. Over time it got

01:03:36   just a little smaller and smaller. Yeah.

01:03:39   I have an old Mac Mini that has a VGA adapter. It came in the box.

01:03:44   You won't get that anymore. Okay, let's move on.

01:03:47   This comes from J.S. Carlton. There's something about the space black Apple Watch.

01:03:51   It's like, how much more black could this be?

01:03:54   And the answer is none more black.

01:03:57   By the way, this is a reference to the film This Is Spinal Tap.

01:04:01   Which will be the next... The next Myke watches a movie. It's on this laptop.

01:04:06   I will watch it. I think it's in a couple weeks time, because next week I'm away.

01:04:10   So if you have a special guest next week... We do have a special guest host joining me

01:04:16   on next week's show. I know it's going to be a good one, so my plea to all the listeners is

01:04:20   please allow me to come back the week after. I don't think our special guest is available to co-host

01:04:26   with me every week anyway.

01:04:27   I bet it will still upset people. Jacob Holt wants... because we were talking about iPod last week, right?

01:04:32   And we were laughing about the iPod lineup. And Jacob has asked,

01:04:36   do we think that iPods will ever be updated again? I don't think so.

01:04:40   I think that they are a legacy product now that sits

01:04:44   a very very low part of the line. I think that existing Nano and Shuffle

01:04:48   can continue for a long time as what they are, but it's

01:04:52   hard to imagine, other than for component reasons

01:04:56   they need to upgrade the storage or something like that, but it's hard to imagine them

01:05:00   ever being updated beyond that. And Apple knows how many they make and how

01:05:04   it's worth keeping them on the product list, and they'll keep them on the product list as long as it's profitable for them to do so.

01:05:09   But that doesn't cost them anything. Rethinking a product costs them.

01:05:14   And I just don't think they're ever going to do it. I'm skeptical that the iPod Touch will ever be updated again.

01:05:21   I don't think it will be.

01:05:22   Let alone the other iPods. Because the iPod Touch, we said this before, if you want a low-cost

01:05:29   iOS, small iOS device, there's the Mac Mini, I mean the iPad Mini 1, the original iPad

01:05:36   Mini, which is still an iPad 2 essentially.

01:05:38   It's better than the iPod Touch in every way, I mean unless you want a small device, then

01:05:41   of course it's not.

01:05:43   But you know.

01:05:45   I can see, again, and I can see people's argument, like "but, but, but, but, but I use it for

01:05:49   this" and I totally get that, but from Apple's perspective it's like it's not worth their

01:05:54   time.

01:05:55   It's like, okay, you might use it for that, we'll buy it then.

01:05:57   It's not going to be powerful, but it's there, and that's probably why they keep it there.

01:06:02   And the shuffle is there because people like to just clip it to themselves and go running.

01:06:08   So it exists, but I cannot see any more resources going into that line unless there is some

01:06:13   breakthrough.

01:06:14   Some kind.

01:06:15   I don't even know what that is.

01:06:17   No, because we're living in a world where you've got wireless headphones and everybody

01:06:23   wants to have their smartphone with them and it's harder and harder and now you

01:06:28   could have your watch with music on it. So I don't think so and not because

01:06:33   there aren't people who have uses for them but because Apple doesn't want to

01:06:35   spend the time to update them versus do new products. On that note @BakeryMe on

01:06:43   Twitter has asked if the watch leads to leaving like your iPhone in the bag

01:06:48   wireless headphones will become more important do you think that Apple are

01:06:52   are going to do their own set of wireless headphones.

01:06:55   I would have expected them to have announced it already.

01:06:57   Well Apple has Beats and Beats makes headphones so I think we're going to see those things

01:07:01   come closer together and I think maybe not now but in the fall certainly when they're

01:07:07   ramping up for the holiday season I would be shocked if Apple's product announcements

01:07:13   don't include how Beats headphones can be used with Apple's products.

01:07:18   Because they mentioned them with the MacBook, and they were like "and you use Bluetooth

01:07:22   to listen with your Beats headphones?"

01:07:26   I think, was it Schiller or was it Eddie Keeler?

01:07:28   Make a joke about it.

01:07:29   Yeah, I remember.

01:07:30   But it was serious, and they had a product shop of Beats headphones.

01:07:33   Gold MacBooks and a young girl wearing gold Beats headphones.

01:07:37   That is the link.

01:07:38   But I really expected a "when the watch came out, here are some sport headphones."

01:07:43   Yeah, I think they're not quite there yet.

01:07:46   But I think that's coming.

01:07:48   I think that that is just a case of they probably wanted to have it, but it's not ready.

01:07:52   Right.

01:07:53   But I think at this point it's less likely that it will be Apple's matched headphones.

01:08:00   Apple's headphone brand now is Beats.

01:08:03   It may be that the EarPods, the next version, is a set of small Beats headphones.

01:08:07   Yeah, it's entirely possible.

01:08:10   They'll brand them and say, "Now we include the...

01:08:14   You get the Beats EarPods."

01:08:15   Hey, maybe that's where the iPod goes.

01:08:19   They give the Beats brand to all music products.

01:08:21   Who knows?

01:08:22   Well, they want the service.

01:08:24   Anyway, so, listen to Christian, would you say that the MacBook Pro 13-inch non-retina

01:08:29   is worthy of the Pro moniker these days?

01:08:31   What is the purpose in the lineup?

01:08:33   The purpose is education, I guess, right?

01:08:36   And it's the having it.

01:08:37   Yeah, I'm not even sure it is so much education since you've also got the MacBook Air, but

01:08:42   it's, they already have it.

01:08:44   It's like what we said about these iPods.

01:08:46   It already exists, it's cheaper, and they can make it very cheaply.

01:08:53   And there is obviously some demand for it in education or business or something where

01:08:57   they keep it around.

01:08:58   It has an optical drive.

01:08:59   And it has the optical drive, so if everybody wants a laptop with an optical drive, they

01:09:05   can say, "All right, we can sell that to you."

01:09:06   And you see this, I mean, this is why the iPod 2 stuck around for a while, is because

01:09:11   they were selling it to education and they needed to keep making it.

01:09:17   This is part of Apple's strategy today, is these ghost products that just fade away very

01:09:22   slowly.

01:09:23   Why does Apple sell the iPad mini 3, 2, and 1?

01:09:29   That's weird.

01:09:30   The old iPhones that are still in the line, this is one of those.

01:09:33   This is a ghost product.

01:09:34   In three or four years, the MacBook Air, there will probably still be a 13-inch MacBook Air

01:09:39   in the product line and we'll all say the same thing which is why is it still there

01:09:43   and the answer is well they can sell that for $7.99 and it's non-retina and all these

01:09:48   things but it's cheap and it's old but it's fine.

01:09:54   This is part of Apple's strategy now and this is one of the ways that they take advantage

01:09:57   of their manufacturing is these products as they age they get really low margins and they

01:10:02   have particular sales channels that want them and so why not keep making them and it's

01:10:08   No more effort for them at that point.

01:10:10   And what happens then is that something breaks, like if they run out of a part or something

01:10:16   else complicates things, then they have to make that moment of like, "Well, do we update

01:10:19   this or do we kill it?"

01:10:20   And in most cases, I think they just kill it at that point.

01:10:23   So they were talking about, say, ATP a couple of weeks ago, about the thought that they're

01:10:28   saying, "We believed that the jobs here had got rid of these."

01:10:32   But the thing is, it's like those products, when they get to that point, the margins are

01:10:37   so huge because you've been making them for so long, the process is down, all of the stuff

01:10:42   is done.

01:10:43   All of the stuff is cheap to make, all the parts are cheap.

01:10:45   So from a business standpoint, it sits there, it doesn't hurt anyone, it's just in the line-up.

01:10:52   Sometimes it makes the product line-up more confusing, it maybe makes things more difficult

01:10:55   for developers because they're still supporting the iPad 2.

01:10:58   I have a brand new iPad 2, ugg.

01:11:01   But from a business standpoint, that helps that $75 billion in revenue.

01:11:07   And if you're Apple, you are more comfortable keeping an old product around than creating

01:11:15   a new product that is just cheap, cheap, cheap.

01:11:19   Plus you can't really create a new product.

01:11:21   And 5C is the only example, the iPhone 5C, where they wrapped an old product in a new

01:11:28   case and claimed that it was a new product.

01:11:31   The 5C did fine, but it didn't set the world on fire.

01:11:34   I think it reinforced their standard strategy, which is just let old tech float around and

01:11:40   just keep cutting the price.

01:11:43   It may be yesterday's model, but it's still yesterday's premium model and not yesterday's

01:11:48   cra-- or today's crappy model.

01:11:51   And so I think it's better for Apple to do it this way.

01:11:54   CloudGabo on Twitter is saying about how Spotify could actually be the company to help bring

01:12:01   podcasts to the masses.

01:12:03   Sure.

01:12:04   Sure.

01:12:05   But it depends on their agreement.

01:12:07   Well, yeah, I have the same trepidation, and I know you do, that any big player who comes

01:12:11   and says, "We want to revolutionize podcasting," you worry that they're going to—they're

01:12:17   trying to be the gatekeeper.

01:12:18   and then they're going to want to put their own ads in or take the ads out or pay us a

01:12:24   penny instead of having our ads in there and we're not going to be able to say no and then

01:12:31   they control podcasting.

01:12:32   So that's the fear of all of these, but I would love for Spotify to bring their intelligence

01:12:39   about music to podcasts.

01:12:41   I think there's, and that's what a bunch of other companies are trying to do too, I would

01:12:46   love to get there.

01:12:47   I do think there's an opportunity to do that.

01:12:49   The problem is that podcasts like this one run for an hour or an hour and a half and

01:12:53   not for ten minutes.

01:12:54   And so the fun of having Spotify and being able to have it pick music for you or Pandora

01:12:59   or whatever is more difficult when you've got--when you're shuffling through things

01:13:04   that are an hour and a half long, you're really only listening to one anyway.

01:13:09   So it's not as good.

01:13:11   You know, I've mused before about what would be interesting is setting up a podcast network

01:13:16   where all of your shows were like 10 minutes long and then offering them as like just chopped up

01:13:23   and remixed and you can pick your favorites. And I think that would be an interesting attempt.

01:13:28   I'm not sure where it would… It might end up just sounding like radio.

01:13:31   And I'm not sure people would like it. But it would be really interesting if you tried something

01:13:36   like that to chop things up and have a 10-minute segment every day instead of an hour a week

01:13:44   and chopped in with other things and all mixed up, would that be good or would that just be radio?

01:13:49   And I think it goes against the appeal of podcasting, but it does feed the appeal of

01:13:55   people wanting to discover new voices and program their own entertainment. It wouldn't be

01:14:02   podcasting, it would be something else. But I'd be waiting for somebody to try something like that,

01:14:06   I think it could be interesting. It would just be very different from what we do.

01:14:10   A couple of last quick questions from Angus.

01:14:14   Do you think the watch with the sports band would be suitable for running or would it

01:14:17   be too heavy and attract sweat?

01:14:19   Yeah, I don't think the…

01:14:20   Well, I don't think it'd be heavy.

01:14:22   I don't think it'll be heavy.

01:14:23   It's heavier than the other one, but I don't think it would be heavy.

01:14:25   You're going to feel a weight because it's a watch, but watches are made to just get

01:14:31   used to them.

01:14:32   Right.

01:14:33   You're not going to fall over.

01:14:34   And as for sweat, I mean, the metal's not going to attract sweat.

01:14:38   band, I had this conversation on the train yesterday, I really like a leather

01:14:43   band, and you know, because you do sweat, and I like a leather band, although

01:14:48   it can damage the band over time, that's true, but I like it because it absorbs

01:14:53   and then it will release the moisture. I hate the sports bands, the plastic bands,

01:14:57   because they are impervious to the moisture, and that means your arm just

01:15:02   gets wetter and wetter, and I hate it, but that's a personal preference thing.

01:15:07   I think sports band on a suffix-less, adjective-less watch is probably fine.

01:15:13   I don't think, you know, I think it's fine.

01:15:15   You're going to get the sapphire instead of the ionics glass, so it's going to be more

01:15:21   scratch-resistant but less shatter-resistant.

01:15:26   But I don't know.

01:15:27   I don't think it's a no for that.

01:15:31   I think you could totally do that.

01:15:33   Last question today from @AlwaysBreaking.

01:15:35   Is the Guinness in Ireland better than the Guinness in the US?

01:15:40   I would love, it would be very hard to do, I would love somebody to actually prove or

01:15:45   disprove this because people say, even in the UK, they say it's better in Ireland than

01:15:49   it is in the UK.

01:15:51   I like stout, we talked about that on our wine and cheese and beer vertical last week.

01:15:59   We had dinner in Dublin and I went to the Porter House, so it was a local microbrew

01:16:06   of a porter and an oyster stout.

01:16:08   I had both.

01:16:09   And then we went to a steamy, crowded Irish pub after, which was really fun, and I had

01:16:14   Guinness there.

01:16:15   And what it reminded me of is I think Guinness is not objectionable.

01:16:19   I think it's...

01:16:22   It feels like it tastes better in Ireland, but honestly, you're in Ireland.

01:16:26   So I think...

01:16:27   >> Because the challenge is fresh.

01:16:28   It's going to be fresher, although I'm skeptical of how much of that is marketing

01:16:34   versus reality.

01:16:35   I think when you're in the environment, it tastes better.

01:16:38   But having a pint poured properly by somebody who's been trained in how you pour Guinness,

01:16:45   it's all part of the experience.

01:16:47   If you isolated it and you were in a white room somewhere and you were just doing a taste

01:16:52   test, I'm not sure it would taste any different, but then you're in this steamy pub with

01:16:57   Irish people all around you, and it's one in the morning, and you've got a Guinness

01:17:03   and you're sitting at a kind of battered wooden bar on a stool talking to a couple of friends,

01:17:09   of course it tastes better.

01:17:10   That said, and again, I'm going to get drummed out of Ireland for saying this, Guinness is

01:17:14   fine.

01:17:15   It is a mass-produced stout.

01:17:17   Having those microbrews at the Porterhouse, those were so good.

01:17:22   I feel like there are better stouts available even in Ireland than Guinness, but Guinness

01:17:27   is fine.

01:17:28   It reminds me of drinking milk.

01:17:30   It's like slightly alcoholic milk.

01:17:31   It's just smooth and nice and you're in Ireland, so it's good.

01:17:36   And it is better in Ireland, always breaking.

01:17:39   It's just I'm unclear whether the taste is not being affected by all the other atmosphere

01:17:44   that goes with it.

01:17:45   It's nicer to enjoy in Ireland.

01:17:47   Yeah, and they do train the barman to pour it properly.

01:17:52   They let the bubbles go out of it, they give it a wait, they sit there and they pour out

01:17:56   a bunch of them as the orders are coming in and then they go back and they do a second

01:17:59   pour to get the head right on the top.

01:18:03   And in other places, people, there are a lot of bartenders who have no idea how to do stout.

01:18:09   So what I found really interesting in that pub that we were in is it didn't take us long

01:18:13   to have the Guinness because he had just had glasses on the go.

01:18:16   Yeah.

01:18:17   He was in the Guinness assembly line.

01:18:19   Yeah.

01:18:20   They were just ready and just settling.

01:18:21   Because usually you go to a bar, and even if they do it, they let it settle for a bit

01:18:24   and they finish it off, but it's still not the right time, I assume.

01:18:27   But yeah, because the whole time we were at the bar, there was always like four or five

01:18:31   glasses, like three quarters full.

01:18:33   Yeah, just letting the bubbles come out, and then they would add it on top and hand it

01:18:39   out.

01:18:40   And there's a proper amount and everything.

01:18:41   So that's part of it, I think, is they know how to pour Guinness in Ireland, so that's

01:18:45   part of the charm, too.

01:18:47   So that's about it for this week's episode.

01:18:50   It's been a pleasure doing podcasts right across the way from you.

01:18:53   Hopefully we'll do this maybe at WWDC.

01:18:56   Yeah, I'm gonna miss, not only will I miss the show next week, I'll miss not doing it

01:19:01   in person.

01:19:02   It's nice, I like it.

01:19:03   And I hope that it's enjoyable to listen to.

01:19:05   I think it does bring a difference in the show that I hope people have enjoyed for these

01:19:08   couple of weeks.

01:19:09   So if you've hated these last couple of weeks, rest assured we'll be back.

01:19:12   Next week we'll have a guest and then we'll be back to the long-distance Skype conversations

01:19:16   of Jason and Myke.

01:19:17   Maybe then I'm away again for one more week.

01:19:19   I know.

01:19:20   We've got another special guest hosting with me that week too.

01:19:23   Yeah, exciting stuff over the next couple of weeks.

01:19:26   Lots of interesting things happening.

01:19:28   I think you'll enjoy.

01:19:29   If you want to find our show notes for this week, you can go to relay.fm/upgrade/29.

01:19:35   Thanks again to our sponsors this week, Linda, Bushell and Mail Route.

01:19:39   If you want to find us online, there's a couple of ways you can do that.

01:19:41   Mr. Jason Snell is @jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L on Twitter and he is the editor-in-chief of SixColors.com

01:19:49   And I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E on Twitter and this show is part of the glorious Relay FM

01:19:55   and you can find all of our shows over at relay.fm.

01:19:59   Until next week, well, for you, thanks so much for listening. Bye bye.

01:20:05   Hello mate, this is a podcast!

01:20:07   [Laughter]

01:20:09   I think Steven pointed this out to us where it's like...

01:20:25   Winter is coming.

01:20:30   Ah, okay.

01:20:32   [Laughter]

01:20:34   (door creaking)