22: I Didn't Hate This Movie


00:00:00   *BEEP*

00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode number 22.

00:00:13   Today's episode of Upgrade is brought to you by our friends at Igloo, an internet you'll actually like.

00:00:17   Hover, simplified domain management.

00:00:20   MailRoute, a secure hosted email service for protection from viruses and spam.

00:00:24   And Stamps.com, postage on demand.

00:00:26   My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined as always by the one and only

00:00:30   Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:31   Hello, Mr. Snell.

00:00:32   How are you today?

00:00:33   - Hello, Mr. Hurley.

00:00:34   I'm doing fine.

00:00:35   How are you?

00:00:36   - I am very well indeed, sir.

00:00:37   I'm always happy to kick off my week

00:00:39   with an episode of Upgrade.

00:00:41   - Yes, it helps us mark time, doesn't it?

00:00:44   It's like the passage of the week.

00:00:45   So this is our Monday.

00:00:47   For me, it's our little Monday morning chat.

00:00:50   For you, it's Monday evening.

00:00:52   So, you know.

00:00:52   - I wish it was my Monday morning as well.

00:00:54   I think that would be really nice, but.

00:00:56   - We should do that sometime where I stay up late

00:00:59   and do like late on Sunday night and you're in Monday morning and we do a crazy...

00:01:05   that maybe not.

00:01:07   - That's not... you'd have to stay up really late. - Yeah I suppose I would.

00:01:11   - Actually no you wouldn't. If you stayed up till like 1am...

00:01:15   - No well that would be 9am. No you're gonna have to get up earlier than that,

00:01:19   Myke. I'm sorry. - Okay. - If this is gonna have to work I think I think you're

00:01:22   gonna have to get up at like 7. And I'll start... we'll start at

00:01:28   7 a.m. your time 11 p.m. my time and we'll do it let's this sounds like a

00:01:31   terrible idea that we could most listless sleepy version of upgrade ever

00:01:36   we could totally do it we should do it I don't know what maybe for April Fools or

00:01:41   something I don't know why that would be April Fools but maybe I could pretend to

00:01:45   be you and you could pretend to be me or something like that it would be funny it

00:01:48   would be it would be funny and it would be interesting to see who we get in the

00:01:51   chat room for that although the incomparable brings out the night owls

00:01:54   because we record those very very late. I should mention since we're

00:01:59   talking about this, we should mention, I think we mentioned this in the

00:02:04   aftershow or in the during show when your internet died last week, but I'm

00:02:11   going to be visiting your land, your fair shores in March, which

00:02:18   means we're going to have to do a couple episodes of upgrade in person, which is

00:02:23   weird and exciting. It's gonna be wild. I'm excited about that. March 23rd we are

00:02:29   going to find someplace to do a podcast in London. I think probably the 23rd could

00:02:35   be the 24th but I think I think we should shoot for Monday because Monday

00:02:38   is our day and and then the following week the 30th we will both be in Ireland

00:02:43   for Ool and so we'll do a an episode from from Ool as well. I don't know maybe

00:02:49   we'll have a special guest who knows but uh that so that's exciting so we're going to do a couple

00:02:54   of these in person which is uh which is fine we've done podcasts in person before uh at least i you

00:02:59   know at wwdc but to do uh and we've talked in person at will last year and all sorts of things

00:03:06   but not this show so this show will be live and in person a couple of times in uh in march i hope

00:03:14   that we'll be able to do the show afterwards i hope that it's like you know we're not we're not

00:03:18   so so we don't love so much recording in person that we then just can't record

00:03:22   anymore just never makes it the same we'll see we'll see yeah we could ruin it

00:03:29   could all be ruined do we have some follow-up mrs. now we do a little bit

00:03:35   although some of it is a very very much a fundamental like question about

00:03:39   follow-up but before we get there we talked last week about the power of

00:03:42   YouTube, if you recall, and listener SpeccyClassics on Twitter wrote in to say, "Will Google be

00:03:52   remembered most for YouTube?" which I think we said, he said, he says, "I think StreetView

00:03:56   is more historically significant." I think that's an interesting point. I guess my problem

00:04:03   with that argument is although Street View is cool,

00:04:07   it's pretty replicable and YouTube,

00:04:13   you can build all the video services you want,

00:04:15   but YouTube's the winner, at least for now,

00:04:19   it is a culturally significant thing.

00:04:21   But I think Google is doing lots of things.

00:04:23   I think we've talked about this on this show before,

00:04:26   but I really believe that Google is well aware of the fact

00:04:30   that their business of doing text ads on the internet

00:04:33   is not gonna, you know, that and their search dominance

00:04:37   is not gonna last and it's not gonna be enough

00:04:40   to carry them into whatever the next tech transition is.

00:04:42   And so they're placing lots of bets

00:04:44   on lots of different technologies,

00:04:46   some of which are interconnected,

00:04:47   some of which are not at all,

00:04:49   because they wanna hit on one or two

00:04:51   of these world-changing things that will propel them

00:04:54   into whatever the next generation of technology is.

00:04:56   And, you know, I think making bets

00:04:58   on something like Street View and saying,

00:05:00   we're gonna blanket the, you know,

00:05:02   we're gonna organize all the information

00:05:04   about like what you see on a particular street.

00:05:06   I think that's great, obviously, self-driving cars

00:05:09   and robot things and other ways

00:05:13   that they will subjugate humanity.

00:05:14   Did I say that out loud?

00:05:16   Will come.

00:05:18   So I would actually place a bet that I suspect

00:05:22   there's probably something that Google will be remembered

00:05:25   for historically that has not even happened yet.

00:05:28   I think there's a decent chance

00:05:29   'cause I think they're trying that.

00:05:30   I think they're actually trying to change the world

00:05:33   on a bunch of different fronts

00:05:34   because they're trying to find their next big thing.

00:05:36   And maybe they'll fail.

00:05:37   But I think unlike a lot of other companies

00:05:39   that were happy to protect the goose

00:05:42   that laid the golden egg until they died.

00:05:45   And they're like, "Oh, the goose is gone.

00:05:47   We're done. We're out of here, Radio Shack."

00:05:50   That they're trying to find the next big thing.

00:05:53   So who knows?

00:05:54   But right now I think YouTube

00:05:56   is just such a cultural phenomenon

00:05:58   to the current generation, the young 'uns like my kids,

00:06:04   that it's pretty powerful.

00:06:06   That was a good buy by Google to buy YouTube.

00:06:10   Google X, that's their entire division in which they

00:06:14   think about space elevators.

00:06:16   Doesn't sound threatening at all, does it?

00:06:18   The X, the most threatening of letters.

00:06:22   What letter should they have used instead?

00:06:25   I think not a letter would have been a good choice.

00:06:28   Call it like Google's special projects or Google Gold

00:06:32   or Google, you know, I don't know, awesome.

00:06:36   - Google future.

00:06:37   - Google volcano.

00:06:38   - No, that's worse.

00:06:41   - No, that is, you're right.

00:06:42   It's meant for bonanza.

00:06:45   So anyway, that's the YouTube follow-up.

00:06:47   Apple watch follow-up, but listener Sean wrote in to say,

00:06:51   "The watch may be to the iPhone

00:06:53   as the iPhone once was to the Mac.

00:06:55   It may become an independent device.

00:06:57   What are your thoughts?

00:06:58   I'm not sure whether Sean means iPad or iPod here.

00:07:04   The iPod was really subservient to the Mac and the PC.

00:07:08   And the watch is going to be subservient to the iPhone.

00:07:11   But the iPhone was never really subservient to the Mac.

00:07:14   You had to sync to put some stuff,

00:07:16   you know, to put some media on it.

00:07:17   But my bigger point was that it's not about

00:07:21   being subservient to another device.

00:07:22   It's that the iPhone or the Apple Watch

00:07:25   only works with the iPhone.

00:07:27   and it's never gonna work with Android phones,

00:07:31   let's just say that.

00:07:33   And I actually wrote, we talked about it

00:07:36   and then that actually spawned a piece on six colors

00:07:39   that I wrote last week about the same issue

00:07:41   about how the Apple Watch is an iPhone accessory

00:07:45   but the iPhone is so large

00:07:46   as we were talking about last week,

00:07:48   the iPhone is so successful that Apple can launch

00:07:52   an entire major part of their business

00:07:55   and have it only work with the iPhone

00:07:56   because they don't need it to work with Android phones.

00:07:59   They don't want it to, and they don't need it to.

00:08:01   The iPhone is so big, they can launch the entire Apple Watch.

00:08:03   Not to say that the Apple Watch won't eventually

00:08:07   have its own cellular connection

00:08:08   and lots of other stuff packed in it,

00:08:09   and you won't need an iPhone with it,

00:08:11   but I think you will always prefer to use it with an iPhone,

00:08:15   and they can do that 'cause the iPhone is so huge.

00:08:18   And it's so huge, especially in the market

00:08:20   that is the market for the Apple Watch,

00:08:22   which is the premium smartphone market.

00:08:24   So I think the Apple Watch will,

00:08:26   to answer Liz Nashon's question,

00:08:28   I think the Apple Watch will absolutely become

00:08:31   an independent device at some point.

00:08:33   Although I suspect it will be a lot less likely

00:08:35   that somebody who doesn't have an iPhone will use it

00:08:38   until the point where it's so powerful

00:08:39   that you don't even need an iPhone anymore, maybe.

00:08:42   I don't know, maybe.

00:08:44   But I think that right now,

00:08:48   it's interesting that Apple doesn't need to worry

00:08:50   about it being anything.

00:08:51   It's not like the iPod where the second generation,

00:08:54   they put in Music Match jukebox for Windows

00:08:57   and let it run on Windows,

00:08:59   and then did iTunes for Windows after that,

00:09:01   'cause they had to get to the PC

00:09:02   for the iPod to be successful.

00:09:04   The Apple Watch doesn't need to reach anybody

00:09:06   but iPhone users to be successful,

00:09:07   and that's how powerful the iPhone is.

00:09:09   - In a quick piece of impromptu follow out,

00:09:13   this week's episode, or this past week's episode

00:09:18   of the talk show with John Gruber and MG Sigler

00:09:22   was the guest, they spoke a lot about kind of

00:09:25   the Apple Watch and how it, they call it like a moat

00:09:29   for the iPhone, I've never heard that term before

00:09:30   but it's quite smart, like it gets you in, you know,

00:09:32   and you can't, it's one of those things that kind of like

00:09:34   keeps you in the ecosystem, right,

00:09:37   because it's just something else that you have

00:09:40   that then means that you must continue to buy an iPhone.

00:09:43   And I just thought it was a really,

00:09:44   they just spoke a lot about this,

00:09:45   if you haven't listened to it you should.

00:09:46   I actually think that episode might be one of my favorites of this run. It's

00:09:51   just absolutely fantastic. It's a shame that we don't get to hear from MG so

00:09:55   much anymore I think. Yeah, yeah because he's off doing Google

00:09:58   Ventures stuff now but I always... people like to give MG a hard

00:10:03   time because yeah you know he could be abrasive and that's saying

00:10:08   that's understating it a little bit but he's a smart guy. He's a really smart guy.

00:10:12   There's a reason Google hired him.

00:10:14   Yeah.

00:10:16   He's handling millions of dollars of Google's money.

00:10:18   I think that there's a good reason for that.

00:10:21   But yeah, it's a really good piece.

00:10:23   The more that we are getting closer to the Apple Watch,

00:10:27   the more excited I am getting about the product.

00:10:30   Like, you know, I keep seeing things pop up now,

00:10:33   like people are doing design mockups of what they think some apps could look like

00:10:37   and that kind of thing.

00:10:38   But just, you know, as we're getting closer to it,

00:10:40   closer to it and now we know that there's a kind of release date window

00:10:44   which means I'll probably be in an event within maybe the next six weeks or so.

00:10:48   I'm starting to get more and more excited about it. I am concerned that it

00:10:55   may be there may be a staggered release on this product but we'll wait and see.

00:11:00   Much more to be done there. Dan Morin and I have been working on a basically

00:11:06   FAQ story for the Apple Watch. We want to start on six colors because we

00:11:10   did one for Macworld on our last day at Macworld, but we want to do one for Six Colors so that

00:11:15   we can also then update it as we learn more information about it. And it's actually been

00:11:18   fun to comb through. Apple's released a huge amount of information about the Apple Watch.

00:11:22   I think even now a lot of people don't understand all of the details that are already public

00:11:28   knowledge about what is going on with the Apple Watch. So I'm hoping we'll post that

00:11:32   in the next week or two and then really looking forward to more information coming out about

00:11:36   it.

00:11:37   I hope that you get an invite.

00:11:39   That's what I hope.

00:11:40   - I hope so too.

00:11:42   I'm not taking it for granted.

00:11:44   I hope I do.

00:11:45   That would be nice.

00:11:45   Although the question is what's the invite to?

00:11:48   Because I don't think there's gonna be

00:11:49   an Apple Watch launch event.

00:11:51   So I hope they maybe contact me and have me review it.

00:11:55   - No, I think there will be another event.

00:11:59   I think that they haven't given

00:12:01   enough information publicly yet.

00:12:03   And I think the best way to do a lot of that

00:12:05   is to stand up on stage.

00:12:06   Like we haven't seen the demos from people that have made apps,

00:12:10   like which is something that they will want to show.

00:12:13   We don't really know much about battery life.

00:12:15   It would be really good maybe to show off some more of the customization options.

00:12:19   I think that an event would benefit the product quite a lot,

00:12:24   and I'd be surprised.

00:12:26   I don't see them doing an Apple Watch event.

00:12:28   It is possible that what they'll do is try to time some other product launch,

00:12:33   that maybe that MacBook Air that we've talked about

00:12:37   a little bit or some other product launch

00:12:40   that they, or that iPad Pro Plus, whatever,

00:12:45   maybe they find some other product

00:12:47   and do an event around that that's timed to be a week or two

00:12:52   before the Apple Watch is going to come out.

00:12:54   And that's when they do the reveal and they're like,

00:12:57   "Oh, let's talk more about what's going on

00:12:59   "with the Apple Watch.

00:13:00   "It's gonna ship on this date," and all of that.

00:13:02   But I think that they would need to,

00:13:03   I don't think they could just manufacture

00:13:04   another Apple Watch event.

00:13:05   I think it needs to be part of something bigger.

00:13:09   And so maybe that's it.

00:13:10   If they can get their ducks lined up on that,

00:13:13   that might work.

00:13:16   And yes, I hope I continue to get invited

00:13:19   to all sorts of Apple events.

00:13:20   So we'll see.

00:13:22   You never know with them.

00:13:23   I'm not taking it for granted,

00:13:24   but they've been very kind to invite me

00:13:25   to at least one event as Mr. Six Colors.

00:13:28   So, although I'm everywhere, Myke.

00:13:31   I'm all over the place.

00:13:32   We'll get to some of this later, but I've got a thing,

00:13:35   I think today on tidbits and I have a thing in iMore

00:13:40   and I may actually in the next few weeks

00:13:44   make a return engagement as a freelance writer

00:13:47   on a strange obscure site called Macworld.

00:13:51   So I'm getting around, I'm getting around, I'm around.

00:13:56   I'm a visible presence in this industry apparently,

00:13:59   not just on podcasts like yours.

00:14:01   I love the idea of Gibby writing for Magwell again.

00:14:04   There's just something about that that's so beautiful.

00:14:08   - I'm actually contractually barred from working for them

00:14:11   until later this month.

00:14:13   So we'll see if I pop up after that.

00:14:16   But I'll leave that as cliffhanger.

00:14:18   We have one more piece of follow-up,

00:14:21   which is actually about follow-up.

00:14:23   - Naturally.

00:14:24   - 'Cause we talked about follow-up last week.

00:14:30   and the issues around how you structure follow-up

00:14:34   in a podcast.

00:14:35   And listener Nash wrote in and said,

00:14:37   "I'd be much more interested in your podcast

00:14:39   "if it wasn't focused so much on follow-up.

00:14:41   "I skip most episodes because of it," sad face.

00:14:45   And I actually talked to listener Nash.

00:14:47   I did a little back and forth with him on Twitter

00:14:49   and he said, "I really like ATP."

00:14:51   And I said, "You know, they do a lot of follow-up too."

00:14:52   He said, "Yes, that's my least favorite thing about it."

00:14:54   I'm like, "All right, well."

00:14:56   So I thought that was interesting

00:14:57   that that's a person who doesn't like follow-up.

00:14:59   I've always said that I like the idea of doing follow-up

00:15:01   on this show because my other shows don't have it.

00:15:04   Upgrading and Jeff also wrote in, and he suggested,

00:15:07   I heard this from a few people, you could,

00:15:09   I actually suggested this back in the day for Hypercritical,

00:15:12   you could do two sessions, right?

00:15:13   You could do a follow-up show

00:15:16   and then you could do the topic show

00:15:18   and you could release them both as sort of sub episodes.

00:15:23   So there'd be episode 21.1 and then there'd be episode 22.

00:15:27   I'm not sure what problem that solves

00:15:29   other than the fact that people wanna ignore feedback

00:15:31   could not listen.

00:15:34   At that point, you could put it at the end.

00:15:36   I think that, you know, it adds complexity and podcasting.

00:15:41   I found the simpler you make it,

00:15:44   I'm trying lots of weird complex things

00:15:46   with podcasting as experiments,

00:15:47   but you know, it turns out that I think simplicity works best

00:15:50   saying, subscribe to this

00:15:52   and you will listen to a show every week

00:15:53   is the simplest thing to do.

00:15:55   There's also some technical issues

00:15:56   And I'd be interested what you think about this, Myke,

00:15:58   but I mean, there's a fundamental issue,

00:16:00   which is we do a show with sponsors.

00:16:03   And if you get a sub show, do you not sponsor that?

00:16:06   Do you have that be sponsored separately?

00:16:08   Are people listening to show A and not show B?

00:16:11   It gets messy in a way that this is messy

00:16:14   in the sense that we've got a bunch of different segments,

00:16:16   but it's not necessarily messy

00:16:19   from a management perspective of the listener,

00:16:22   because there's just one show to listen to.

00:16:24   I don't know. It's, it's, I think there's no good answer here that pleases everybody.

00:16:29   Um, I've thought about, we talked about putting it at the end. We could do that. Uh, I don't

00:16:35   know. What do you think?

00:16:37   I think follow up at the end of the show is weird because you've probably already made

00:16:41   more mistakes during the show, which would also need to be followed up on and you don't

00:16:44   have that follow up yet. Um, so it feels like quite, I don't know, like, so you've completed

00:16:51   episode 20 and then the corrections for episode 20 come at the end of episode 21, where you

00:16:56   as an individual are now more informed before that point.

00:16:59   So I feel like that there are some weird things there and I see why we do it in this way.

00:17:07   I think this is reiterating what I was saying last time.

00:17:11   There is no way of doing this structurally that will please everyone.

00:17:16   So if we want to continue doing it, which we do, because I do think that it's an interesting

00:17:20   an important part of the show, then I think doing it the way that we do it now is best

00:17:24   because it's like the standard practice. If we started doing something else, you're probably

00:17:29   going to upset more people than we would by doing it another way. And the idea of having

00:17:36   additional episodes, like the amount of problems that that would bring...

00:17:41   Oh yeah. It adds complexity. Too much complexity, I think.

00:17:45   The show episode numbers and the website pages won't match anymore.

00:17:49   Right.

00:17:50   be a nightmare.

00:17:51   I, I, yeah, I totally agree. I think fundamentally, I mean, we need to be, we need to not overdo

00:17:57   it with follow-up, because then the show is, like, literally, and I felt like Hypercritical

00:18:02   would occasionally do this, where it was eating its own tail, like, the show was not about

00:18:05   new topics anymore, the show was always about what they talked last week and other reactions

00:18:10   to that. And you wanna, you wanna modulate that, you wanna, you wanna prevent that from

00:18:14   going overboard. Also, the fact is, follow-up often is not about reading letters, although

00:18:20   I did some of that last week, which I probably should have summarized more, but it's—these

00:18:24   are other topics, these are revisiting topics. So like us talking a little bit about the

00:18:28   Apple Watch today, that was really a topic. It was follow-up that led to a topic. And

00:18:34   this is likewise follow-up that leads from a topic. Anyway, I think what I would say

00:18:38   is it's a young medium, this podcasting thing. We're always thinking about this stuff. I

00:18:43   appreciate the feedback. I know Myke appreciates the feedback too. And then

00:18:45   Myke and I talk about this all the time. Myke's got a lot of shows. I got a lot of

00:18:49   shows. We think about the right way to do this all the time. And so I, you know, I

00:18:55   appreciate the feedback and we're gonna keep doing follow-up in the show but

00:18:59   we'll try to, you know, we'll see how it goes. We're definitely talking about all

00:19:04   the different ways we can possibly handle it. So, you know, I love and I love

00:19:07   getting the feedback. So keep on sending it. You can hashtag #AskUpgrade. You can

00:19:11   tweet at me or Myke or you can tweet at underscore upgrade FM if you like.

00:19:16   Or send us email.

00:19:18   One of the frequent complaints that we do get on the show is that we talk about podcasting a lot

00:19:23   and we're doing and not only we're doing it now I'm doing it more right now but I

00:19:27   think the reason for that is is because of how invested we both are with the

00:19:34   medium and it's interesting I think for us because you said it because we me and

00:19:39   Jason we do talk about podcasting and this show from a technical and

00:19:45   production perspective a lot when we're not recording and and I think it's

00:19:49   because we are both trying to build parts of our business and our livelihoods

00:19:53   on it so naturally that is going that is going to be a prevailing topic on this

00:19:59   show along with we how we talk about and we have spoken about like what it's like

00:20:03   to be an independent worker working on the internet I think podcasting is

00:20:08   always going to be a thread that that goes across this. But we're going to talk

00:20:14   about a little later on something you wrote on Six Colors which kind of crossed

00:20:20   the line between podcasting and writing. But just a quick question on that. Do you

00:20:25   ever get complaints that you write about writing?

00:20:30   No, no, I very rarely, or writing about podcasting. It's not for everybody. I think the difference

00:20:40   is you can just skip a story that you don't like. Whereas one of the things with the podcast

00:20:45   medium is you can't just skip to the next topic because that would require chapter markers,

00:20:51   every time, and all prominent podcast apps to support them and a lot of extra work into

00:20:57   marking the chapters, and even then a lot of these conversations are free-flowing. But

00:21:02   I do think that's part of it, is you just ignore it. And a podcast, I think people aren't

00:21:07   in a position to just skip to the next thing, and so there's a responsibility there. In

00:21:11   any linear medium, there's a bigger responsibility there. I get a lot of feedback from people

00:21:16   saying, "I love it when you write about the tools you use, or how you write things, or

00:21:19   how you put together a podcast." I think some people want to know because they're trying

00:21:23   to do it themselves, and some people want to know because they're fascinated by behind-the-scenes

00:21:27   stuff, just in general about how things get put together. And I think in our audience,

00:21:32   we get that a lot. A lot of the people who listen to this show and read the sites we

00:21:37   read and all of that are people who like to understand how things work and how things

00:21:41   are put together. And so that creates a curiosity whether or not they're actually going to do

00:21:46   that stuff themselves. But I mean, like, seriously, that photo that I posted with the orange brain

00:21:51   and everything else that was on my desk, everybody wanted to know what the stuff was on my desk

00:21:55   and how I used it. They wanted to know that. I thought, "It's just my desk, it's stupid,

00:21:58   who cares?" And they're like, "No, we want to know." And so there's curiosity. And sometimes

00:22:03   that can lead to good story fodder too. So, I don't know. Something I was going to mention

00:22:08   in Ask Upgrade that I'm going to throw out there now, which is we did get feedback from

00:22:12   a particular listener who said, "How much time do you spend each week discussing podcasts

00:22:17   during podcasts?" Basically, we answered a listener question about podcasts. This particular

00:22:22   listener didn't want to hear it. Which is so funny because we really had a good chat

00:22:27   about that. Yeah well and and what's really funny is that you know he didn't want to hear

00:22:31   it but it was at the request of another listener so he's basically saying I don't care if somebody

00:22:36   else wants to hear it I don't want to hear it so don't do it. That's fine but what you

00:22:41   just said is exactly what my response was which is we're technical people we talk about

00:22:46   technical issues involved in working in a new medium that seems valid as a topic this

00:22:51   This podcast isn't about podcasting, nor is it about working at home, but I think those

00:22:55   are topics that can come up from time to time, and that's okay.

00:22:59   Also, this is where I want to talk about that.

00:23:02   I don't talk about that on any of my other podcasts.

00:23:04   I don't have, I don't talk about how to make podcasts on Clockwise or Incomparable or Total

00:23:08   Party Kill, right?

00:23:09   I don't do it there.

00:23:11   But if I think there's an appropriate thing to talk about on upgrade, I will.

00:23:15   And I do aspire to discuss technical topics on upgrade, including things like making podcasts.

00:23:21   So you know, if it's not, this podcast doesn't turn into that, but we are going to talk about

00:23:26   that from time to time as one of the many topics.

00:23:29   And if that is too much, then that's fair enough.

00:23:33   But in the great words of Dan Benjamin, "Sorry to lose you as a listener."

00:23:38   But that's just, we're going to talk about it as one of our topics.

00:23:41   This show does have a focus on new media, which I might put into the description.

00:23:44   Sure.

00:23:45   Because we spoke about YouTube last week.

00:23:47   Right.

00:23:48   So there you go.

00:23:49   New media.

00:23:50   Right, let's take a quick break and we're done with follow-up.

00:23:53   Ding!

00:23:53   Yeah, we did it in about 25 minutes this week, so it's not too bad.

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00:25:50   Okie dokie, so Mr. Jason Snell.

00:25:53   - Yes sir.

00:25:54   - We have a brand new app.

00:25:56   We spoke about this a couple of weeks ago

00:25:58   about how the Photos app had been removed mysteriously

00:26:03   from the Apple website.

00:26:05   Whilst I was playing conspiracy theorist,

00:26:07   I believe that you did say they could just be getting ready

00:26:10   to do something, and they did.

00:26:13   - Yep, that made me look good, didn't it?

00:26:16   - Yeah, it's like a crystal ball over in California,

00:26:19   over there.

00:26:20   - Amazing, well, we're breathing the same air,

00:26:22   drinking the same water as the people from Apple.

00:26:24   So maybe that gives me a little leg up on that.

00:26:27   Yeah, so it turns out they were removing

00:26:29   all those references to the Photos app,

00:26:31   like coming later and very vague things

00:26:35   because they were going to drop a beta of the Photos app

00:26:38   and give it much more detail.

00:26:40   And that's what they did.

00:26:41   released a beta of 10.10.3 which includes the new Photos app and they

00:26:47   briefed some people, Verge and Wired and Chris Breen and Macworld and a few

00:26:54   other people about it in advance and released it to anybody with a

00:26:59   developer account on Thursday I think. So yeah now we've got a

00:27:05   development version at least of this new Photos app and an idea when it's coming

00:27:09   which is spring, they said,

00:27:13   and presumably whenever 10.10.3 is ready to go.

00:27:16   - So have you tried it out yourself?

00:27:21   - I have.

00:27:22   - What has the experience been like?

00:27:25   How did you get your photos into the app to start with?

00:27:29   I'm interested.

00:27:30   - Well, I imported my personal iPhoto library, I think,

00:27:39   and that imported okay.

00:27:41   And then I tried to import a larger iPhoto library

00:27:46   and that didn't go as well.

00:27:51   It crashed, it tried to convert it

00:27:53   and then I gave up after a while and it was not great.

00:27:57   So I ended up taking those photos

00:27:59   and just exporting them as originals and dragging those in.

00:28:03   And that worked.

00:28:04   And there are a bunch of different ways.

00:28:06   I mean, it's a development version.

00:28:07   So it's definitely got some import hiccups still

00:28:10   that they're gonna have to work on.

00:28:12   But you know, it's fast.

00:28:16   And that's like the number one thing

00:28:18   that iPhoto never was, is fast.

00:28:21   It's even, you know,

00:28:22   when you've got tens of thousands of photos,

00:28:23   you wanna be able to scroll through.

00:28:25   And it feels very much like the iOS version

00:28:27   of the Photos app.

00:28:28   It's got that view of like,

00:28:30   where it's trying to break it up into sort of locations

00:28:32   you've been over a small span of time.

00:28:34   So it'll say, you know, your home

00:28:37   and this place you went on February 7th through 8th,

00:28:42   and then they'll have photos there.

00:28:43   And it tries to, you know, it's very familiar

00:28:46   if you've used the iOS Photos app,

00:28:48   but it's also got a lot of the same power.

00:28:50   It's got smart albums.

00:28:51   It's got editing tools that are, I think, pretty good.

00:28:57   They've got simple editing tools

00:28:59   and they've got complex editing tools

00:29:00   and they've got some sort of preset tools

00:29:02   that are in between.

00:29:04   I think that's all good.

00:29:05   The banner feature here is the iCloud syncing stuff though,

00:29:08   that it's gonna use your iCloud photo library.

00:29:13   And in fact, there's a setting in it

00:29:15   that lets you say basically,

00:29:17   I don't need to keep these files on my Mac.

00:29:20   At which point, it's unclear what happens.

00:29:24   There are a bunch of mysteries about this app

00:29:26   that we have to investigate.

00:29:27   Like when you import your photos,

00:29:29   It says your disk space doesn't get used up.

00:29:34   But if you delete the old photos

00:29:39   from the old iPhoto library,

00:29:41   I believe it still has them,

00:29:43   which makes me wonder if it's doing some really weird

00:29:46   like linking thing.

00:29:48   I don't know quite what it's doing.

00:29:50   So that's weird.

00:29:51   And then when you set up the iCloud photo syncing,

00:29:54   it says, when you say,

00:29:56   "I don't need to keep originals on my Mac."

00:29:59   it doesn't say it's going to delete all of them off your Mac.

00:30:02   It says it may delete them if there's not enough room,

00:30:06   which is completely mysterious.

00:30:08   It's like, how does it know whether there's enough room?

00:30:10   And if it's got 40 gigs worth of photos

00:30:12   and I want to use that 40 gigs for something else,

00:30:15   can I tell it to go away?

00:30:17   How does that work? - Well, this is kind of like

00:30:19   what, there's some stuff on iOS where this happens, right?

00:30:22   So you have like, do you remember that thing

00:30:25   when the apps would clean themselves?

00:30:28   Do you remember that?

00:30:29   when an iOS app would suspend because it was removing data

00:30:31   from the inside.

00:30:32   - Oh yeah.

00:30:33   - Because your phone doesn't have a lot of space

00:30:34   on it anymore, so it starts to get rid of data

00:30:37   that's kind of like in limbo.

00:30:40   So maybe they're doing something like that.

00:30:41   Maybe it's like if you need,

00:30:43   if you're getting close to your disk space

00:30:45   and the system wants to free up like five gigabytes

00:30:48   of photos, they just remove the five gigabytes of photos

00:30:52   that you haven't looked at in three years.

00:30:54   - Right.

00:30:55   - And you just get like really compressed thumbnails

00:30:57   or something.

00:30:58   - That's my theory, yeah, is similar,

00:31:00   which is I think what's happening is that there's a cache.

00:31:03   And it's like the iTunes cache,

00:31:05   where when you are using iTunes in the cloud

00:31:09   and you double click on a song to play it, it downloads it.

00:31:12   It doesn't just stream it, it downloads it

00:31:14   in the background while it's playing it

00:31:16   to a cache folder on your hard drive.

00:31:18   And that cache folder, it'll sit there,

00:31:20   so you're not redownloading.

00:31:21   If you listen to that song a few times,

00:31:22   it's not gonna redownload it.

00:31:24   But obviously there's a mechanism

00:31:25   where if there needs to be disk space,

00:31:27   either whether the system demands it

00:31:29   or whether iTunes every now and then just cleans it up,

00:31:31   that cache stuff gets wiped.

00:31:33   And I think that's what's happening here is that

00:31:36   iPhoto or a Photos app is considering those cached

00:31:40   once they're up in the cloud

00:31:42   and that it can get rid of them at any point.

00:31:44   I don't know the exact mechanism

00:31:46   and whether it's app based or it's system based.

00:31:48   It'd be nice if it was system based.

00:31:49   'Cause like I said, if I've got a podcast

00:31:52   that's got 80 gigs of, or okay, maybe that's too many,

00:31:56   20 gigs worth of space and I need that space.

00:32:00   And the photos app is using space that I need,

00:32:03   does it go away or do I have to do something

00:32:07   to make it go away?

00:32:08   I think that's the unclear part here,

00:32:09   but ideally it would just go away at that point.

00:32:11   'Cause once everything's up in the cloud,

00:32:13   that's the beauty of this scenario

00:32:16   is if you don't have the disc space

00:32:17   and I don't have any computers that have enough disc space

00:32:19   to hold the, other than on an external drive

00:32:23   to hold all my photos now,

00:32:24   I just don't have any computers

00:32:26   'cause they're all SSD computers.

00:32:28   So I'd like to be able to manage my photos on my Macs

00:32:31   without having to have 600 gigs of storage

00:32:36   devoted to photos,

00:32:37   'cause I want that stuff out in the cloud,

00:32:39   I'm willing to pay to have that stuff up in the cloud.

00:32:42   And that's the promise here.

00:32:44   So we'll see whether it delivers,

00:32:46   but that's the promise and I'm excited about that

00:32:49   because I would like to have access

00:32:51   my entire photo library from any device. I just don't want to have to manage the

00:32:58   storage of that because that's a lot of that's a lot of stuff and and and right

00:33:02   now I do have this Mac Mini with the Drobo attached to it and that's where

00:33:06   those photo libraries live which is great except I don't you know we don't

00:33:10   use the Mac Mini it's like a server basically and so if my wife or or I want

00:33:15   to pull out some old photo it becomes this whole thing to do that and what I'd much rather

00:33:23   is even if we kept all the files on that computer I want access to the whole library from elsewhere

00:33:29   quickly and easily and that's the promise of photos is that if we do this right it'll

00:33:34   all be up in iCloud it'll be on all our phones and iPads and our Macs even if they don't

00:33:39   have the originals they can get them when we need them so that's exciting.

00:33:43   I think one of the fundamental problems though with the system,

00:33:46   like whilst it's trying to be helpful, ambiguity in photo storage is a real problem.

00:33:53   Like the idea of, "We'll just take care of it, don't worry, some of your photos will go away

00:34:00   and then they'll come back again when you need them."

00:34:02   Like that is quite ambiguous as to how they're going to manage that.

00:34:06   You know, it's kind of like up to an engineer's decision over what photos are kept and not kept.

00:34:12   kept and the problem with that is if there's a problem or you lapse in

00:34:17   payment and don't realize and then your storage gets cut, where do your photos go

00:34:22   then? Because if they're not locally on the machine because that's 20 gigabytes

00:34:27   of photos from 1954 that you uploaded, right, because you don't look at those a

00:34:31   lot but they're really important family photos that you want to keep. If

00:34:37   If they're gone and you don't back up locally, or the local backup that you do is like a

00:34:44   super duper clone, so it's just cloning what's physically on the machine, they're gone forever,

00:34:50   potentially at that point, right?

00:34:53   I expect Time Machine will be enhanced to deal with this in some way, but if you don't

00:34:57   back up that way, you might be in for a bit of a problem.

00:35:02   It seems to me that what Apple has done with the Photos app is said, "Look, if you want

00:35:06   every file you need to check this box and then every file will be there and if

00:35:10   you don't you check this other box and then it won't. So it's on you basically.

00:35:14   And that's on you and so for me the way I will probably set this up if I decide

00:35:19   that this is good enough and we're gonna use it everywhere in our family what I

00:35:25   will do is that Mac Mini that's got the giant Drobo giant hard drive attached to

00:35:29   it will have it set to have all of them so I'll have a hard drive with all the

00:35:36   originals on it and that one will get backed up. But if I didn't have that I

00:35:40   would be putting yes, I would be putting my trust in Apple to not lose my data.

00:35:45   And the fact is Apple needs to get that right, right? I mean this is not

00:35:52   something you can get wrong. Apple has to get that right even if people do, they

00:35:58   don't get to say "well you check the other box, you take your chances, we lost

00:36:03   your photos, sorry, oops, you should have backed them up." This is not set up to

00:36:07   work like that. This is set up like they are gonna have your photos, and, and period.

00:36:12   That they will have your photos, and so they better be rock, it better be rock

00:36:17   solid. But I feel that way about like, you know, my online backup. My online backup

00:36:22   service better have my files, right? What if they screw up and my backup goes away

00:36:27   somehow? Well then I'm in big trouble if I have a crash, and that's just something

00:36:31   that, you know, at some point you are putting yourself in their hands, or if

00:36:36   you really are concerned, you create your own backup. And in that case you'd have

00:36:40   one system with this "keep all the originals on this Mac" setting set. And I

00:36:45   would do that, like I said, on a different Mac. But what I'd like is on my Mac

00:36:48   that's got an SSD in it to have access to all those photos when I want to from

00:36:54   the cloud, but not actually have to use the storage space on this Mac, because I

00:36:58   I don't want to do that.

00:37:01   - One of the things that's come out of the Photos app release

00:37:05   through people digging through the code as they tend to do,

00:37:09   Steve Trouton Smith is always an absolute,

00:37:13   like he's like a miner, you know?

00:37:15   Like he just gets in there and he's just like digging in

00:37:17   and he's finding things all the time,

00:37:19   like with his pickaxe, his development pickaxe.

00:37:23   People have found something called UX Kit.

00:37:25   Can you explain to me what this is

00:37:27   why this is potentially significant.

00:37:29   - So UXKit is something that was used,

00:37:34   it's a private framework,

00:37:35   so it's only supposed to be used by Apple.

00:37:37   And it's in 10.10.3 and photos.

00:37:42   And okay, without getting, this is,

00:37:46   welcome to build and analyze.

00:37:48   This is, I am not a developer,

00:37:50   so take that for what it's worth.

00:37:53   The frameworks that developers use to build iOS apps

00:37:56   are something called UIKit.

00:37:58   And that doesn't exist on the Mac.

00:38:01   There's something called AppKit

00:38:02   that you use to build apps on the Mac,

00:38:04   but it's not the same as UIKit.

00:38:05   And a lot of the muscles that iOS app developers

00:38:10   have built up using UIKit are not available on the Mac.

00:38:15   So it makes iOS developers,

00:38:18   people very familiar with iOS,

00:38:20   building Mac apps, it makes it harder.

00:38:21   And developers have tried to find ways to bridge this.

00:38:25   The icon factory spent a lot of time

00:38:26   trying to find ways to bridge this so that they could bring Twitter-ific iOS

00:38:31   codebase to the Mac. And it seems like with the Photos app, Apple has done it.

00:38:36   Where Apple is taking, has built this UX kit which is, which it seems from the

00:38:41   people who are investigating this that it's sitting on top of AppKit. That it's

00:38:44   bringing some of the controls that you're used to in UIKit over to the Mac.

00:38:49   Not all of them, it's not a total replacement, but the idea is it could

00:38:53   potentially grease the skids for iOS developers who want to make Mac apps and use their iOS

00:39:00   code or maybe it's just their skill set. It's kind of unclear. Different developers can

00:39:04   disagree. Brent Simmons wrote a piece where he says, "I don't think anybody's ever going

00:39:07   to use this except Apple." And it's not a complete solution here. It might be useful

00:39:15   for people in very limited ways. And then I saw another developer who replied to Brent's

00:39:18   thing and said, "Yes, but those limited ways would be really great if we had access to

00:39:23   easier ways to build this stuff that's a lot more like we like we know from iOS.

00:39:27   So it's intriguing because this is the first time Apple's let this thing

00:39:32   out of the box, out of Cupertino, and developers' ears all

00:39:37   perked up because they've been wanting something that's more iOS-like on the

00:39:42   Mac so that they could apply their skills in similar ways. Because again

00:39:47   this is not the same as saying, you know, it's gonna run iOS apps. That's not what

00:39:51   this is but it is a ways of developing

00:39:53   Mac software that are more like ways of

00:39:56   developing iOS software and developers

00:39:59   would be excited about that so if it WWDC

00:40:02   this year Apple were to announce hey we

00:40:04   have this thing called UXKit and now you

00:40:05   guys are going to be able to use it too

00:40:07   in 10.11 you know we're using it now

00:40:12   in photos

00:40:13   shhh don't tell anybody but you guys will all get

00:40:15   it with 10.11 it'll be official then and

00:40:18   here's the documentation and start

00:40:19   learning how to use it and you can apply

00:40:20   your iOS skills on the Mac, they would be excited about that. Brent Simmons says, "I

00:40:24   don't think that's going to happen." Other people think that it might, or maybe that's

00:40:27   wishful thinking, but I think as Mac users that's very exciting because the easier it

00:40:33   is for these iOS developers to bring software to the Mac because it works more like the

00:40:40   way they're thinking, the better it is for Mac users because there'll be either more

00:40:46   Mac apps or better Mac apps. I think that could be a good thing. So anyway, that's an

00:40:50   interesting like super nerd trivia about the Photos app is that it seems to be built using

00:40:55   UXKit, which my guess is the internal developers at Apple who built the Photos app on iOS built

00:41:00   the Photos app on Mac and they wanted to apply same story. They wanted to apply some of that

00:41:05   knowledge and work to the Mac app and they built a framework that is more iOS-like on

00:41:14   top of the Mac frameworks.

00:41:16   seems logical to me to do this because it's like it just feels like you should

00:41:21   try and find ways to bridge the gap a bit because I'm sure it's easier to do

00:41:27   it this way like iOS to the Mac rather than the other way around

00:41:30   right naturally but like to make more iOS-y apps on the Mac would enable people

00:41:37   who make iOS apps to be able to make Mac apps easier right and in doing that it

00:41:45   it makes the ecosystem better.

00:41:46   As Apple is pushing the integration between OS X and iOS,

00:41:51   we have handoff and continuity and stuff like that,

00:41:53   I think it makes sense that you would enable your developers

00:41:57   to do the same thing.

00:41:59   Like Mark has spoken on ATP about an overcast Mac app

00:42:04   and the struggles in potentially doing that.

00:42:08   And I would expect, not that he would necessarily do it,

00:42:11   it would make it easier for him to make a Mac app if there was some tools and frameworks

00:42:16   that were more similar to iOS, to the point where you could reuse code, basically.

00:42:22   Yeah, and again, even if you couldn't reuse all your code, if you could reuse some of

00:42:26   it because you understand the way that drawing tables works in iOS and now you've got a way

00:42:31   that does that on the Mac, that would be good. That would make it easier. So, you know, again,

00:42:37   I wrote a story about it really quickly because I saw some people on Twitter getting really

00:42:40   excited about it as they discovered this and it would be exciting for some developers if

00:42:47   this happens so it's kind of a neat story. It'll be interesting to see Steve Trout and

00:42:52   Smith will continue to dig through it and find what all the... I mean that'll happen

00:42:56   especially since the Mac is not locked down like iOS is. They can reverse engineer this

00:43:02   and use those tools if they really want to. The problem is it's a beta OS and if things

00:43:08   change in the next beta, everything they do will break, but you know certainly I

00:43:11   love it when people play that, you know, they're doing the detective work to

00:43:15   figure out what's going on with Apple and hoping that this is a sign that this

00:43:20   is something that they'll be given eventually themselves because if it's

00:43:23   good enough for Apple and Apple's trying it with and developing it perhaps with

00:43:27   this Photos app in mind. Also the other thing that I had several people

00:43:33   talked about including Grouper and it's funny Dan Morin and I with the day

00:43:36   before we're talking about the same thing which is could you use the same

00:43:40   approach to create a music app on the Mac instead of iTunes that would be

00:43:46   interesting too. Yeah there's been quite a bit of discussion about that

00:43:51   recently we were talking about it on connected in regards to the fact that

00:43:54   Apple were looking at not using beats right so that they're looking at

00:44:00   creating a brand new streaming service that takes from both like at the point

00:44:04   that you do that, if you add that to iTunes, which is the logical thing,

00:44:09   iTunes will start to implode upon itself. So the idea that maybe this

00:44:15   will finally be the key for what people have been wanting Apple to do for years

00:44:20   is to uncouple iTunes from itself and have a music app and an iPhone or an

00:44:27   iOS focused app that has the App Store in it. Maybe just call it the App Store

00:44:32   app or whatever and it manages your iPhone? You just look at you just look at

00:44:36   iOS that and I had people say well iTunes does so much how could you how

00:44:41   could you do that well look at iOS there's a music app there's a videos app

00:44:44   there's an iTunes app and there's an App Store app. Well the Mac's already got the

00:44:48   App Store app you could very easily have an iTunes app that was literally

00:44:52   storefront and syncing and then music and videos are videos could essentially

00:44:59   be a rebranded version of even the QuickTime app with a little more UI.

00:45:03   Or they could do something new again, but QuickTime 10

00:45:07   is already weird enough that they could just keep going down that road if they wanted to.

00:45:11   And then there's the music app, and you do a much better

00:45:15   dedicated music player that's got the subscription service integrated, and it's got the

00:45:19   music integrated. I think that would be the way to go. And then

00:45:23   I also hear from people who are like, "But what about on Windows? What would they do on Windows?" Well, I'm not sure

00:45:27   they care and if iTunes just continued to be floating around as a dog on

00:45:31   Windows whereas there was this super awesome new generation of apps on the

00:45:34   Mac I think that's okay honestly I think that's I think Apple would think that

00:45:39   was okay I don't think they're gonna turn off Windows compatibility but if the

00:45:43   experience of interacting with your media I mean this is this is core system

00:45:47   level media playback right music on the Mac is iTunes and the Mac cannot be held

00:45:53   back because we've got to do it on Windows. Forget that. That is ridiculous. That is not

00:46:01   the way you've got to play this game. The iTunes for Windows can continue to be there

00:46:07   and be kind of crappy and whatever, but it needs to not be the thing that holds back

00:46:12   the Mac. And when you're seeing the trend with the Mac and iOS, where it's now not an

00:46:19   it's calendar and it's not address book it's contacts this is the direction

00:46:23   they're going is all these things are gonna match up and you've got the

00:46:26   service on iOS and the service on the Mac and they're not identical apps but

00:46:29   they've got the same names and the same functions and if you go down that path

00:46:32   then absolutely they're going to need to get to a place where there is a music

00:46:36   app and a videos app and an iTunes app that's the store and I think that is

00:46:42   what's going to happen I think it's just a question of when and I hope it's soon

00:46:45   because iTunes is not... I use iTunes every day to listen to music and it is

00:46:50   not very good. If you look at iTunes 12 it's kind of like that. It's like they

00:46:55   siloed all these things and then put them together. In a tab. Yeah, which is so

00:47:01   weird but that's kind of what it's like. It's like five different apps in iTunes now.

00:47:05   It's very peculiar but the Windows argument I don't think it holds up

00:47:08   because Windows... iTunes for Windows existed for iPods and then for iPhones.

00:47:15   both of which you don't need a computer for anymore.

00:47:20   - Right, right.

00:47:21   I think they want to keep it around,

00:47:23   but I don't think they need to invest anything in it.

00:47:25   And I don't think that it needs to hold them back

00:47:27   with what they do on the Mac.

00:47:28   - There's no, there would be no reason

00:47:30   to create music.app for Windows, but they may do,

00:47:34   they might do something because like there's talk

00:47:37   of them making an Android app of this music.

00:47:41   - Well, there's a Beats Android app.

00:47:42   So I think they wanna keep that around

00:47:45   because there's a Beats Android app.

00:47:47   I think they wanna keep that around

00:47:48   as a subscription service, but yeah, maybe so.

00:47:50   Maybe so, I just have a hard time believing

00:47:53   that Apple's gonna let the Mac get held back

00:47:55   because they have some sort of imaginary obligation

00:48:00   to providing parody on Windows.

00:48:02   That's not gonna happen.

00:48:03   - I agree with you.

00:48:04   I don't think it will.

00:48:05   Let's talk about a couple of things

00:48:07   that you've written this week.

00:48:08   But before we do that,

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00:49:48   Thank you so much to Igloo for supporting this show and all of Real AFM.

00:49:54   Okie dokie.

00:49:55   So one of your new ventures is you, I believe, were the the inaugural person on iMore's

00:50:06   like back page column.

00:50:07   Yes, so if you wonder where the back page of a website is, it's apparently on Friday

00:50:14   and on iMore.

00:50:15   So yeah, Renee and Serenity asked me to do a, I think I'm going to be doing them fairly

00:50:21   regularly until they tell me they don't want me anymore.

00:50:25   And so I kicked it off.

00:50:26   So they asked me to write an op-ed piece and Serenity gave me some specific ideas, which

00:50:32   I thought was great because a lot of what I've been writing lately is like completely

00:50:36   wide open, what the heck am I going to write about today kind of stuff, which is interesting.

00:50:43   But I like that the tables have turned and Ren's now your boss.

00:50:46   Yeah, oh sure.

00:50:48   She's hiring you for work now.

00:50:50   Yeah, sure.

00:50:51   She pays me.

00:50:52   And it's an interesting, it's interesting.

00:50:57   Although it's funny working with people

00:50:58   that I've worked with on and off for years,

00:51:01   you get that funny moment of like relief,

00:51:04   which I'm glad they're relieved and not driven crazy.

00:51:07   They're like, "Oh yeah, you know how to do this."

00:51:09   Instead of, "Boy, it's a lot of work.

00:51:11   I gotta edit this guy and all that."

00:51:12   It's like, "Oh yeah, this is good.

00:51:15   Good, thanks."

00:51:16   Right?

00:51:17   It's just like a relief that I'm not causing them trouble.

00:51:19   But yeah, so she has some suggestions, which was great

00:51:22   because that's kind of a nice challenge.

00:51:24   And I was able to come up with something

00:51:27   that kind of fit within the themes that she was looking for.

00:51:29   And that was a lot of fun.

00:51:30   So I wrote this piece called Apple and the Agents of Change,

00:51:33   which I like to refer to as Marvel's Apple's Agents of C.H.A.N.G.E.

00:51:38   - No.

00:51:41   (laughing)

00:51:41   - It's coming soon to nowhere.

00:51:44   Anyway, yeah, Apple and the Agents of Change,

00:51:46   which is about, you know,

00:51:47   Wren wanted me to write about changes in my life

00:51:50   and changes at Apple and could I find ways to connect those?

00:51:52   And I tried to do that.

00:51:55   - So people should go read the piece,

00:51:57   it will be in the show notes which are in your podcast app

00:52:00   or relay.fm/upgrades/22.

00:52:03   - Except for Monty Ashley, my friend,

00:52:05   who does not read show notes, but we'll get to that.

00:52:08   - Yeah, we'll get to that as well.

00:52:11   So this is a really interesting piece

00:52:12   and one of the things that you're talking about

00:52:14   is like Apple have no fear and have in the past

00:52:17   had no fear to just move forward.

00:52:19   And one of the great, you picked out a couple of great things.

00:52:22   I really liked the anecdote that Steve basically effectively threw away all of

00:52:27   the nostalgia things that Apple were keeping around.

00:52:29   They had like a company museum.

00:52:31   Yes.

00:52:32   And, and he basically said, get it away.

00:52:34   And they send it all off to Stanford to be kept by, you know, whoever in whatever

00:52:39   department keeps Silicon Valley history troves at Stanford university.

00:52:44   But he got it out of the building.

00:52:45   He was like, get it away.

00:52:46   The other like, Oh, look, we're going to save this.

00:52:48   and we got all these old Macs and all Apple IIs

00:52:49   and all this documentation.

00:52:50   He's like, "Get it away."

00:52:52   I imagine him saying that like he was allergic to it.

00:52:55   Like literally, "Get it away from me, ah!"

00:52:57   That, you know, yeah,

00:52:58   that's one of my favorite Steve Jobs quotes

00:53:01   because it just says everything about his approach

00:53:04   to the past versus the future.

00:53:08   Like, very focused on the future,

00:53:09   doesn't care about the past.

00:53:11   So that was his thing.

00:53:12   - They, you know, this is something

00:53:14   that Apple were very frequently criticized for, right?

00:53:17   "Oh, you're making me buy that $25 dongle peripheral cable again."

00:53:21   Because that is an example of them wanting to move forward and move ahead.

00:53:27   And so it's a very interesting thing.

00:53:29   So when I was reading this piece, and I really don't want to be that guy, okay?

00:53:33   So I'm just saying that upfront, okay?

00:53:35   I don't want to be that guy, but I'm going to be that guy.

00:53:36   - You are that guy, but you didn't want to be.

00:53:39   All right.

00:53:39   - The examples that you give are examples of things that Steve did, right?

00:53:43   Because that's the history.

00:53:44   However, and I know that you go in and you talk about

00:53:48   like the what would Steve do type thing

00:53:51   and how he effectively asked, please don't do that.

00:53:54   But do you think that Apple will remain this way

00:53:57   without Steve?

00:53:58   Do you think that one of the prevailing things

00:54:00   that the culture will be to continue moving forward

00:54:02   or as John Roderick would say,

00:54:03   to keep moving and get out of the way?

00:54:06   - I do, I said that in the piece

00:54:08   that I think one of the greatest gifts that Steve Jobs gave

00:54:11   to his future Apple executives was the,

00:54:16   you know, the corporate culture that Steve Jobs built

00:54:20   wasn't here are the things that I like, do these things.

00:54:23   It was a way of thinking about this, how they do business

00:54:28   and a way of thinking about change and changing your mind

00:54:34   and analyzing what's coming down the road

00:54:37   and making good decisions about the products they make

00:54:40   but also not being afraid to cannibalize their own business,

00:54:44   lots of things like that.

00:54:45   And I feel like it gives them in some ways

00:54:47   kind of carte blanche to change what Steve would have wanted.

00:54:52   And now eventually they're gonna get past that.

00:54:55   It's gonna be so far away

00:54:56   that you're not gonna be able to hold up a Steve Jobs quote

00:54:59   and say, "Uh-uh, Steve said you shouldn't do this."

00:55:02   But right now they're in it, right?

00:55:04   They're in the let's do a watch,

00:55:08   let's do an eight inch tablet, let's do,

00:55:11   you know, all sorts of things,

00:55:12   let's do a music streaming service,

00:55:14   let's buy a company for a lot of money

00:55:16   and do a music subscription streaming service,

00:55:18   which Jobs wasn't into.

00:55:19   'Cause Jobs doesn't have the opportunity

00:55:21   to look at the data that we have today and change his mind,

00:55:26   which is what he did all the time.

00:55:28   So I think they've got as good a chance,

00:55:30   I've said this before,

00:55:31   I think they've got as good a chance as anybody does

00:55:34   to succeed at this,

00:55:37   because that was instilled in the culture

00:55:40   and because they built Apple University

00:55:42   to try and continue to instill those approaches

00:55:45   into the people who work at Apple.

00:55:47   They might or not make it.

00:55:49   It's not gonna mean that they're not gonna make mistakes.

00:55:53   They absolutely are.

00:55:54   But I think that they are escaping from the paralysis

00:55:58   of not knowing what to do 'cause Steve isn't around.

00:56:02   And I think it's a healthy thing for any company to have

00:56:06   or anybody to have of saying,

00:56:08   "Look, change is going to happen.

00:56:09   Let's be the ones who make it

00:56:11   and not the ones who resist it."

00:56:13   And I think that is one of Apple's great assets.

00:56:16   In addition to all of the things about their supply chain

00:56:19   and their product design philosophy

00:56:21   and all those things we talk about a lot,

00:56:22   I think one of the Apple strengths

00:56:25   is having this culture of not being,

00:56:30   not waiting around for somebody else to do it,

00:56:31   not protecting their investment,

00:56:33   not killing that goose that lays the golden egg,

00:56:35   but instead trying to be the agents of change.

00:56:38   - And one other thing that I was interested in this,

00:56:41   'cause it just got me thinking,

00:56:42   'cause you mentioned a couple of ways

00:56:44   that Tim is carving his own Apple,

00:56:45   and I think that that is so clear.

00:56:48   The decisions that he has been making

00:56:50   are so different but still kind of the same,

00:56:52   but you mentioned the acquisition of Beats is a huge one,

00:56:56   and some of the different changes

00:56:59   that they're making in products,

00:57:00   like bigger iPhones, if they do a stylus,

00:57:02   it's another big thing that I think

00:57:04   that they should think about,

00:57:06   and if they do it in the right way, it's appley,

00:57:08   but it was not necessarily Steve Jobs-y.

00:57:11   So, and you also mentioned like,

00:57:14   I can't remember what it's called now,

00:57:15   but like the employee giving program.

00:57:18   - Oh yeah, yeah, the philanthropy,

00:57:19   the matching program that just wasn't there,

00:57:22   it was, the philanthropy stuff wasn't on Jobs' radar,

00:57:24   and that was one of the first things Tim Cook did,

00:57:26   which was reversing something that either Steve Jobs,

00:57:29   I don't know if he had forbade it, but he didn't do it,

00:57:31   and it was an easy one for Tim Cook to be like,

00:57:34   Yeah, we're doing that now.

00:57:35   - So do you think that some of these things

00:57:37   make Tim Cook's Apple maybe a better Apple?

00:57:40   - It's tough to say better.

00:57:45   I think it has the potential to make them better.

00:57:47   I think really what we're talking about is

00:57:50   you're losing all of the things that made Steve Jobs great

00:57:55   because he's gone.

00:57:58   But he spent a decade trying to instill those things

00:58:03   in the culture and again, you know, Apple University is meant to continue doing that.

00:58:10   So hopefully you keep at least the way of approaching the world that Steve Jobs had

00:58:17   in the company culture. You're not gonna have the hold up a product and use it for a little

00:58:23   bit and make lots of keen observations about what's wrong with this product and why it

00:58:30   sucks and why we need to do better. You're gonna lose that. But you've got

00:58:33   people who work with Steve Jobs, people who've been trained in this approach, who

00:58:36   could individually have aspects of what he was good at. So okay, you maybe you

00:58:42   lose, you know, you lose a lot of product taste and maybe you make that up by

00:58:48   having a bunch of other people who have good taste too, but are in different

00:58:52   areas. So you put that all together. Does that company match the

00:58:58   Apple with Steve Jobs? No, it doesn't. It might come closer than you might think because

00:59:02   there are a lot of people who would say, "Well, without Steve Jobs, they're doomed." No, there

00:59:05   are a lot of talented people at Apple. But what you do gain, and I don't know whether

00:59:09   it's enough to make it as good or better or what, but what you do gain is a variety of

00:59:15   perspectives from all those people as opposed to the perspective of Steve. And Steve had

00:59:20   blind spots. Steve absolutely had blind spots. And I say that as somebody who from the outside

00:59:27   would look at some of what his decisions were and be like, "Why do they do that?" And I

00:59:33   said this for a while that I didn't think Apple TV and Apple's approach to TV on iTunes

00:59:39   made a lot of sense because I had this sneaking suspicion that Steve Jobs just didn't like

00:59:42   TV and didn't care about it, and so it was a blind spot for Apple. I feel like the streaming

00:59:47   service thing, the subscription service thing, Steve Jobs had his way of consuming music,

00:59:52   that was buying albums. And he was a child of the 60s, so buying albums was his thing,

00:59:58   and so he could get behind electronically buying albums, but to get to singles, to get

01:00:02   to streaming was a lot harder for him. And that blind spot is gone because Steve's gone.

01:00:07   So you eliminate Steve's blind spots because through diversity now you've got a bunch of

01:00:13   different people who have different takes on all this stuff, and hopefully they're working

01:00:18   in a framework where this can lead to good decisions being made where you don't have,

01:00:23   ideally you don't have one person somewhere who's like, "No, I don't care about it, we're

01:00:26   not doing it," which I think Steve had that kind of power. He was such a strong personality

01:00:32   that if he really loved album art, everybody was going to prioritize engineering things

01:00:37   that showed off album art, like CoverFlow and that iPad music app, the original iPad

01:00:42   music app. And I would argue that was always one of my pet peeves, is that Steve really

01:00:47   loved album art and I think it's stupid and that bad UI led from the decision of showcasing

01:00:52   album art. But I don't think album art as a concept is stupid. I think over—Apple

01:00:57   totally overemphasized it, and I suspect that's because Steve really liked it and liked to

01:01:02   talk about it and they wanted to please him. So in the end, do I think Apple is a better

01:01:07   Apple than before? You know, I don't know how you measure that. I would say they're

01:01:12   different and they have the opportunity to not have the blind spots that were there when

01:01:16   you have one personality driving so much of what they did.

01:01:20   My girlfriend just got a new MacBook Pro and one of the things that I have been tasked

01:01:27   to do is to give her some tips and tricks as to how to use it.

01:01:32   She has used Macs but only really used them for work and so now this is her personal computer

01:01:38   as well.

01:01:39   And I was showing her column view in Finder because I said to her it's the best way to

01:01:44   to move around Finder, in my opinion.

01:01:48   Do you agree or disagree with that?

01:01:50   - I hate column view.

01:01:53   Steve Jobs loved column view,

01:01:55   'cause it's the next browser view, but I hate it.

01:01:58   - What do you use?

01:02:00   - List.

01:02:01   - Okay, so I like column because it's also list,

01:02:06   but you can get more on the screen,

01:02:07   and I like 'cause it shows you your path, so anyway.

01:02:11   But that's my preferred.

01:02:13   but I noticed that cover flow is still in Finder.

01:02:17   And basically the way I explained it to her is like,

01:02:19   this is only good now for looking at pictures,

01:02:21   but even then it doesn't make any sense to use thumbnails.

01:02:24   And I cannot understand why it's still in Finder.

01:02:27   Like I just can't see who's using it.

01:02:29   Like why?

01:02:29   - No, it's like a memorial to Steve Jobs.

01:02:31   It's like Steve loved this, let's keep it in there.

01:02:33   No, it's terrible.

01:02:33   And you're right, even the great thing

01:02:35   about the current Finder is that you can set things

01:02:38   to icons and have them be sorted

01:02:40   and have them have very large icons.

01:02:42   and that's great for a folder full of pictures.

01:02:45   And they're sorted and arranged properly

01:02:49   with big preview thumbnails as the icons.

01:02:54   It's great.

01:02:55   I don't know why you would ever use CoverFlow View.

01:02:57   Now we're gonna get some follow up

01:02:58   of somebody who loves CoverFlow.

01:03:00   - If you have a real reason for using it, I wanna hear it.

01:03:05   I'm interested now.

01:03:06   Right, so should we just,

01:03:09   let's just quickly touch on this other piece that you wrote

01:03:11   I think that is an interesting one called "Nobody's Listening." What

01:03:17   was the intention of this article that you wrote? Well I was struck by

01:03:22   the fact that Marco Arment got a firestorm of coverage for him saying

01:03:28   that Apple might have some software quality problems when he'd been saying

01:03:33   that and his colleagues on ATP had been saying that forever. And then he wrote an

01:03:40   article about it and that one went, people went nuts over that. And I was

01:03:44   fascinated by that. I mean it's obvious on one level. It's like, well, people don't

01:03:48   listen to podcasts. But I think it's true, I think Marco would even say, he's

01:03:52   suggested as much on Twitter, that more people listen to ATP than read his blog.

01:03:57   So what's the story? And the answer is, well, it got me thinking about audiences.

01:04:04   Because the ATP audience hearing them talk is listening to them, it's listening

01:04:08   to them for all their episodes.

01:04:10   It's all in the context of what they're talking about.

01:04:12   You get the history, you know who these guys are,

01:04:14   you know what they're talking about.

01:04:15   Whereas Marker writes a piece there.

01:04:17   First off, he's probably, he's admitted,

01:04:19   he sort of dashed it off.

01:04:20   He's probably thinking in the context of ATP.

01:04:23   These are conversations that we've all had on his podcast,

01:04:27   on other podcasts, on other Mac sites,

01:04:29   other Apple related columns, whatever.

01:04:32   We've talked about this stuff.

01:04:33   So he writes this thing saying,

01:04:34   "Look, I think this is a problem and it's bugging me."

01:04:35   And he uses some language that he regrets later.

01:04:37   That's fine.

01:04:38   But the difference is that that's really shareable.

01:04:42   And somebody who is not in the audience

01:04:46   and doesn't understand the context can read that

01:04:49   or can have it passed to them.

01:04:51   And then it blows up and it blows up

01:04:53   because there's a completely different audience

01:04:55   that's now coming into contact with it

01:04:56   and doesn't have any context.

01:04:59   I think that's interesting about this collision of mediums,

01:05:02   but it also, as somebody who does a lot of podcasts,

01:05:04   it made me think about the fact that

01:05:07   like I said, nobody's listening.

01:05:09   People are listening, but it is a podcast or a medium

01:05:14   that is kind of walled off from, and this is good and bad,

01:05:19   walled off from viral sharing.

01:05:23   It's bad because it means that a podcast clip

01:05:26   can't go viral like a YouTube clip can.

01:05:29   Certainly not easily.

01:05:30   It's good in the sense that when we're having conversations

01:05:34   on podcasts, it's to an audience that really,

01:05:37   I think generally understands a context

01:05:40   that is richer and broader than somebody

01:05:44   who comes to an article on a website

01:05:46   because they did a Google search

01:05:47   or because somebody linked to it on Twitter.

01:05:50   Because there's no context then.

01:05:51   You get your loyal audience

01:05:53   and then you've got this audience that knows nothing

01:05:55   about you, is never gonna read anything by you again,

01:05:57   has dropped in to see this thing.

01:05:59   And if you've got comments on your website,

01:06:00   well then leave a nasty comment

01:06:02   like a bag of flaming poop on your door

01:06:05   and then they're gone and they never come back.

01:06:07   So I was just struck by that.

01:06:09   And so I wrote this thing that's about like,

01:06:11   we like to think that audiences are monolithic,

01:06:13   but they're not.

01:06:14   There are lots of different kinds of audiences

01:06:17   and different stuff you do reaches them in different ways.

01:06:20   We can't assume that everybody listens to the podcast

01:06:22   and reads the websites.

01:06:23   We can't assume people read the show notes

01:06:25   because Monty Ashley says he listens to 10 podcasts a week

01:06:29   and has never once looked at show notes before.

01:06:32   I told the story about the guy who won our incomparable

01:06:35   iTunes review contest and I couldn't find him because he didn't read our Twitter account

01:06:39   and he didn't read the show notes. And until I put a thing at the beginning of an episode

01:06:43   that said, "Please, if you're this person, write to me," and then he immediately wrote

01:06:47   to me because he listened to the show. That's all he did. All that other stuff interacting

01:06:51   on Twitter that we think of as being our audience is with a little chunk of our audience. The

01:06:56   chat room is a little chunk of our audience. So I was just thinking about that, about how

01:07:01   we think of audience, it's so easy to think of audience as monolithic, and it's really

01:07:04   not like not even close. You linked to a dig article called "Is This Thing On?" where

01:07:12   they talk about the fact that audio content doesn't get shared in the

01:07:19   same way like and and this led me to I was thinking a lot about this and it's

01:07:23   not something I've done anything about because I haven't got a good answer for

01:07:26   it but I was thinking about this a lot when we were thinking about Relay and I

01:07:31   I have my own little story about this, which I don't know if I've ever told before, so if we've got a minute I would like to tell it.

01:07:37   Sure.

01:07:38   I interviewed John Roderick on Command Space, and one of my most favorite episodes that I did.

01:07:46   It was the second time I interviewed him.

01:07:48   And there was a quote that a lot of people were sharing from the article.

01:07:57   And Marco even wrote a little piece on his blog where he quoted it, he transcribed it.

01:08:04   And it was about the kind of the idea of the quote and Marco titled the kind of the clip

01:08:11   that he wrote, "We're just flipping through index cards." And he was talking about like the way that

01:08:16   you create things and like being creative. And it was just such an interesting like,

01:08:22   Obviously Roderick was going through a time where he was thinking about how you create

01:08:27   and where you put things and really it was kind of it blew my mind as it did for a lot of people.

01:08:33   Like you know so it was it was just this really interesting quote and I was watching Marco's link

01:08:39   getting shared a lot but it didn't change the listener numbers of the episode.

01:08:44   So people were tweeting about it like there was a musician I wish I could remember what band it was

01:08:51   he was from. I might be able to find it actually and I'll report back on some real-time follow-up

01:08:57   in a moment but like he even tweeted it and again I don't know how he came across it. I think he may

01:09:02   have linked to Marco's piece as well and it was it was just very peculiar but what it showed to me is

01:09:08   it's just the way in which people will find something is the way that they will just they

01:09:13   will just consume it and they're happy with that you know. Very very very peculiar. And the dig

01:09:20   It's funny, I wrote a piece and quoted Marko from an ATP episode, and it was the same thing

01:09:24   where I felt like on one level I was kind of getting this statement by Marko out into

01:09:29   a wider world, because I went through the trouble of, as I do every week, it's not trouble,

01:09:34   but I went through the effort, the time involved to listen to ATP and then think, "Oh, that's

01:09:40   really interesting. I want to write about that, but I need the context." So I wrote

01:09:45   down a couple paragraphs that Marco had said on ATP, and then I wrote a thing quoting it,

01:09:50   and then commenting on it. And I did have that moment of thinking, this is like moving

01:09:55   this medium to this different place, where if that was something controversial, this

01:10:02   is what would get passed around, because people didn't listen to the episode, but they can

01:10:05   pass this around. And that's what that Digg article is pointing out, which is there is

01:10:08   no way to make a viral video from podcast audio right now that's standard and commonly

01:10:13   And as a result, like I said, podcasts are great in that they have this context shared with them.

01:10:19   They are bad in the sense that it's much harder to get a cool little two-minute bit

01:10:24   shareable unless you

01:10:28   transcribe it. And you're not going to transcribe a whole podcast,

01:10:31   so it ends up being you transcribe this little bit. And most people are never going to do that for like a viral whatever,

01:10:37   and so it just is lost.

01:10:40   And I don't know what, I don't know what, you know,

01:10:43   like I said, I don't know if there is a solution

01:10:46   other than the fact that there really should be

01:10:47   a really awesome web embeddable audio player

01:10:50   that follows a similar kind of format

01:10:53   to what YouTube videos do

01:10:55   where you can link to a particular time code.

01:10:57   That would be really nice.

01:10:58   I understand there's some technical limitations there,

01:11:00   but that would be great.

01:11:01   Failing that though, yeah, it's,

01:11:04   I love podcast audiences 'cause they're so loyal,

01:11:06   but the downside is that there is such a,

01:11:09   It's like a little pocket universe off to the side of the web.

01:11:13   And until somebody writes something down,

01:11:15   like what Marco did when he wrote that story

01:11:17   and stepped in it a little bit, but he wrote that.

01:11:19   That was perfectly in context of his podcast.

01:11:22   But to the web, it's like no other context ever existed.

01:11:27   It was like, oh, now he's really had it.

01:11:29   Well, no, he's been talking about this for months,

01:11:32   but that's not how it read.

01:11:34   It's funny, funny world.

01:11:36   - It was Adam Lazarra of "Taking Back Sunday."

01:11:39   - Okay.

01:11:40   - So there you go.

01:11:41   - Real time follow up there.

01:11:43   Anyway, it is funny that we think about people

01:11:46   who listen to podcasts and then people who read websites

01:11:48   and people who are on Twitter

01:11:49   and people who are in the chat room

01:11:51   and you know, and those people are great.

01:11:54   People who read footnotes.

01:11:55   I had a footnote in my piece that said,

01:11:56   I also love people who read footnotes.

01:11:58   But you know, it's not everybody.

01:12:03   And it's important to, if you're making content

01:12:05   on the internet, it's important to keep that in mind.

01:12:07   And if you're somebody who loves podcasting like I do,

01:12:09   it's one of the peculiar things about the medium

01:12:12   is that it is walled off so that you can get this tempest

01:12:15   in a teapot that happened when Marco wrote this thing

01:12:18   that to a podcast listener was like not news.

01:12:21   - Jason, who is presenting Ask Upgrade for us this week.

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01:13:44   I hope not, but there's really no place in Boston

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01:14:57   Jason.

01:14:59   - #AskUpgrade.

01:15:00   Listener Aaron says, "Jason and Myke,

01:15:03   "what is your thought about the news regarding Pebble

01:15:06   "and their new operating system and hardware?"

01:15:09   Have any thoughts about this?

01:15:11   This came in as we were doing the show last week.

01:15:13   Pebble announced new operating system

01:15:16   and hardware on the way.

01:15:17   - The thing that I actually found the most interesting,

01:15:21   I mean, I saw that and great

01:15:23   because we are both Pebble users.

01:15:24   New hardware, I'm not too fussed about.

01:15:26   I'm not gonna buy a new Pebble, because I will replace my Pebble with an Apple Watch.

01:15:31   I'm sorry, Pebble people, but I will do that.

01:15:35   The thing that I found the most interesting is that they sold over a million.

01:15:41   And they made a little infographic, and I'm gonna try and find the infographic.

01:15:49   But basically they sold a million Pebbles faster than Apple sold a million iPods.

01:15:55   Which I know is like a thing where it's like, well, you know, there are so many different

01:15:58   factors as to why that could have happened and why it didn't, like why it didn't, why

01:16:01   it didn't.

01:16:02   However, I just think it's really cool.

01:16:04   I just think it's a really cool statistic.

01:16:06   They sold that, you know.

01:16:08   Oh, here we go.

01:16:09   I've got it from the website now.

01:16:11   Pebble sold 1 million smartwatches after its first seven quarters.

01:16:15   Apple sold 977 iPods after its first seven quarters.

01:16:21   So I think it's interesting.

01:16:22   I'm happy for them.

01:16:24   I think it's amazing. - Yeah, I am too.

01:16:26   We talked about this before a little bit.

01:16:28   I feel like there is room in the market at this point

01:16:32   for a nice low-end smartwatch with long battery life.

01:16:37   I feel like they should not try to compete

01:16:40   with the Android smartwatches or the Apple Watch.

01:16:43   They should be a notch down.

01:16:44   They should add some fitness features and all of that,

01:16:46   but if they can be cheaper and have that week-long,

01:16:49   or even if it's like three or four day long battery life,

01:16:52   I think that's their best.

01:16:54   I think that's their best approach going forward.

01:16:56   'Cause I don't think, it's a little company.

01:16:58   I don't think they're gonna be able to keep up

01:16:59   with Samsung and Motorola and Apple.

01:17:02   But I think that there's a place for them.

01:17:04   As an iPhone user, they're really limited

01:17:07   in what they can do with the iPhone.

01:17:09   Their Android features are much better

01:17:11   than their iPhone features because the OS supports more.

01:17:15   And let's be honest, the Apple Watch is gonna be the thing

01:17:20   that Apple connects really well.

01:17:22   And I don't think that stuff's gonna be available

01:17:24   to other watchmakers.

01:17:26   So I think the jig is up once the Apple watch is out.

01:17:28   And yeah, but that said,

01:17:30   I don't have anything against the Pebble.

01:17:32   And in fact, I'm wearing it right now.

01:17:33   I have been wearing this Pebble most days for two years.

01:17:38   I got it two years ago.

01:17:39   I think like today, two years ago.

01:17:41   And for what I paid for it on Kickstarter,

01:17:45   having this as my watch for the last two years,

01:17:47   totally worth it.

01:17:48   It tells the time.

01:17:50   It does some other neat things,

01:17:51   but it's a fun bit of technology that tells the time.

01:17:56   And yeah, am I gonna replace it

01:17:57   when the Apple Watch comes out?

01:17:58   Almost certainly.

01:18:00   That's fine.

01:18:01   - Like I have a Relay FM watch face

01:18:05   that friend at the show Rob Lewis built.

01:18:07   And every time I look at my watch,

01:18:09   I see like a Relay FM-style watch face.

01:18:12   And it's like, that's just so cool, you know?

01:18:15   I love that that's the case.

01:18:16   And it will be a shame for that sort of stuff

01:18:21   because it is maybe a little bit more fun

01:18:23   than the Apple Watch will be because it's kind of different.

01:18:26   But I am, as you said earlier,

01:18:28   I'm very, very excited about the Apple Watch.

01:18:30   'Cause the Pebble was kind of onboarded me to that.

01:18:33   - Yeah, you know, there won't be any custom faces

01:18:36   in the Apple Watch at launch,

01:18:37   but I think it's only a matter of time

01:18:40   before there's a developer kit

01:18:41   that allows for custom watch faces.

01:18:44   It'll happen. - Definitely.

01:18:45   a definite thing. It'd be crazy not to eventually do it. It kind of is very surprising to me

01:18:50   that there won't be custom watch faces at launch. It seems like such a logical thing

01:18:54   to do, but...

01:18:55   I think they want to control the look of the experience because the fact is with the Pebble

01:18:59   there were lots of custom watch faces from the beginning that were lousy. And so, you

01:19:04   know, I think Apple doesn't want their watch to look junky. I think they want to have like

01:19:10   total control and be really happy with the refined faces that are available.

01:19:16   So I feel like that's like step one is we're gonna make some good faces, you're gonna use

01:19:20   these faces.

01:19:21   And then step two will be okay, you can do custom faces through the App Store and we'll

01:19:25   have to approve them, etc, etc.

01:19:27   I think it will happen, but I'm not too surprised that they didn't have it happen up front because

01:19:32   I feel like that's like totally an Apple's wheelhouse of we want to control this.

01:19:36   And I see why, because a junky face on that watch does not do them any good.

01:19:42   I was just reminded by Joe Steele in the chat room that there will be a Mickey Mouse watch

01:19:46   face.

01:19:47   There will be.

01:19:48   And so I questioned that one, but I understand.

01:19:54   The Jacob Holt wrote in to say, "What do you think of the doom of Radio Shack and is Best

01:20:00   Buy next?"

01:20:03   I don't really have an opinion.

01:20:04   I would say to the second part of the question, yes.

01:20:08   (laughing)

01:20:10   Eventually, all of those stores will go away.

01:20:14   The age of the dedicated electronics retailer

01:20:19   has already ended.

01:20:21   And the ones that are left

01:20:22   are kind of just there on inertia.

01:20:24   Like Best Buy tried to launch in the UK

01:20:26   and they opened a bunch of stores

01:20:28   and I think they were closed, all closed within a year.

01:20:30   Like there is just not a need anymore

01:20:33   for something like this to exist

01:20:34   when every other big store sells electronics

01:20:38   as well as online.

01:20:39   We only have one of these types of stores left in the UK

01:20:45   and the one that's left is like the company that owns it

01:20:49   basically bought up over time like the three major companies

01:20:53   like so there's, what we have at the moment

01:20:55   is a company called Currys PC World

01:20:58   and basically there was a company called Currys,

01:21:00   a company called Dixons.

01:21:01   Dixons was where the terrible Apple retail guy came from,

01:21:05   you remember that?

01:21:06   - Yeah. - And PC World.

01:21:07   So they were the three. - And PC World.

01:21:08   - Yeah, they were the three that we had.

01:21:10   And then Currys bought Dixons and then bought PC World

01:21:13   and became Currys PC World.

01:21:15   So, I say this to say like, they are going away

01:21:20   and there's kind of only ever space for one of them

01:21:23   because people will still maybe need one,

01:21:26   but that need will go away soon as well

01:21:29   because Walmart and Target,

01:21:31   they will hold all the TVs and computers that you need in some instances. And then you've

01:21:35   got companies like Apple who the best place to go and buy Apple products is in the Apple

01:21:39   store and Microsoft is trying to do the same. So there you go. This is experience stores

01:21:43   will remain but these big box retailers will go away.

01:21:46   I think you're right. In fact I wonder sometimes if you might not see TV manufacturers do something

01:21:53   similar where they've got like a little experience store where you come and look at the 4k TVs

01:21:57   and have something like that. But generally yeah a lot of this is going to be online or

01:22:00   it's gonna be in other retailers and it's gonna go away Radio Shack is to be

01:22:06   credited for surviving as long as it did because it kept having to try and

01:22:10   reinvent itself and so because it was a store for radio ham radio hobbyists

01:22:15   that's how it started it was crazy and over time it adapted they were one of

01:22:20   the leading computer manufacturers in the early days of the PC with the TRS-80

01:22:25   and they adapted again to be a cell phone store, and in fact the fact that Sprint is interested in buying up a bunch of their stores tells you the story there.

01:22:35   These are located in places where having a cell phone store sort of makes sense, but as a dusty electronic hobbyist kind of thing, that stuff is on the internet.

01:22:46   the internet and in fact I I would never go to one here because we actually have

01:22:49   an electronics hobbyist store that has so much more stuff than Radio Shack

01:22:55   because it's like the place to go and it's bigger and it's the people who are

01:22:59   there are like totally into all of the technology and they know all of it and

01:23:04   at Radio Shack it was like a guy who didn't know anything I've been into

01:23:09   Radio Shack three times in the last like five years or ten years and it's to buy

01:23:13   their little they had a little battery operated clip-on microphones that were

01:23:16   pretty good and so if like I was somewhere and I and I didn't have the

01:23:21   microphone I forgot it or something this just happened in San Diego when I was

01:23:24   down there for Comic Con and I needed another microphone I thought oh I'll go

01:23:28   to Radio Shack and I bought one that's it can't keep them in business buying a

01:23:32   microphone every four years so you know it's amazing they stayed in business as

01:23:36   long as they they did and and yeah they it's time time to go and I think retail

01:23:42   is just changing. This is yet another way that retail is changing. Samsung opened

01:23:47   one of those experience stores in a Westfield Mall here, which is a quite a

01:23:52   large Westfield Mall on the on the Olympic site, so where the Olympic Park

01:23:55   is, a place called Stratford here. They recently closed it. It didn't do very well for them.

01:24:00   No. It was huge. It was so dumb. But there you go. We have one more which is a list

01:24:07   to Chris wrote in to say, Jason, how, sorry Myke, hopefully it'll be in the UK soon, how

01:24:13   frequently do you use Apple Pay? And my answer is, Chris, you know I don't leave the house

01:24:18   very much, right? I don't, I used to go into San Francisco every day, and I don't now.

01:24:27   I'm in my little town here, there are lots of days where I don't get into a car. And

01:24:32   so as a result, I don't use Apple Pay that frequently, I use it every time I go to Whole

01:24:35   foods and I used it at the World Series to buy a hot dog. But every time I go to Whole

01:24:40   Foods I pay with it because that's the place I go to, it's right by my house and they had

01:24:44   Apple Pay and so I use it every time I go to Whole Foods. But that's it, I have not

01:24:49   used it elsewhere but I'm not sure I'm the best example. It does mean that sometimes

01:24:54   I find myself having left the house with only my iPhone feeling like I could go to Whole

01:24:59   foods if I wanted to even though I forgot my wallet because I can pay with my iPhone.

01:25:05   We have a Starbucks that just opened next to the Whole Foods and I can pay with the

01:25:10   Starbucks app at the Starbucks. So I could now leave the house without a wallet and do

01:25:13   okay for myself. Goodbye some manchego, get a hot chocolate at Starbucks, just have a

01:25:19   grand old time before I had to come home.

01:25:23   The wallet adventures of Jason Smale.

01:25:25   Oh man, Whole Foods is not enough.

01:25:27   You gotta go to Starbucks too.

01:25:29   There's a Bank of America in there I could take out.

01:25:30   So, oh no, I need my wallet for, see?

01:25:33   Apple Pay.

01:25:34   Anyway, that's how I use Apple Pay

01:25:35   is to buy generally beer, peanut butter

01:25:40   and mini Ola Tangelos at Whole Foods.

01:25:44   - I'm surprised.

01:25:46   I am surprised that we don't have Apple Pay yet.

01:25:48   I thought we would have had it by now.

01:25:50   But alas, no.

01:25:53   I know that I will use it a lot though,

01:25:55   because I use contactless payment on my debit card,

01:25:59   basically every time I use my debit card.

01:26:01   So there we go.

01:26:03   I expect that I will be a big user of Apple Pay,

01:26:08   if and when it launches.

01:26:11   - All right.

01:26:12   I think that brings to an end Ask Upgrade for this week,

01:26:17   which means we're left with one more segment.

01:26:20   - Special segment.

01:26:22   - Yep.

01:26:23   Who is bringing to us this week, Jason, Movies with Myke?

01:26:28   - That's what we're calling it this week.

01:26:29   Movies with Myke is brought to you by MailRoute.

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01:27:22   like LDAP, Active Directory, TLS, Outbound Relay,

01:27:26   and Myke's favorite, mail bagging.

01:27:29   Mail bagging, that's right.

01:27:31   - I felt bad for you when you read the ad

01:27:34   on the incomparable.

01:27:35   You sounded so sad with mail bagging.

01:27:37   - You weren't there to shout mail bagging.

01:27:39   - I will let you know that I did make a noise

01:27:41   when you said it.

01:27:42   (laughing)

01:27:45   - Mail bagging.

01:27:46   Anyway, this is all part of the glory that is mail route.

01:27:50   So start a risk-free trial, no credit card necessary.

01:27:53   You sign up, you change your MX record,

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01:28:03   It is simple and effective.

01:28:05   There's no reason not to try it.

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01:28:11   So go to mailroute.net/upgrade now.

01:28:15   That's mailroute.net/upgrade.

01:28:18   10% off in the lifetime of your account and a risk-free trial.

01:28:22   Mailbagging, yay!

01:28:24   And thank you, Mailroute, for sponsoring Movies with Myke.

01:28:29   [imitates trumpet]

01:28:30   - I was very surprised at how much positive feedback

01:28:35   we received about the Movies with Myke segment

01:28:37   from last week.

01:28:40   - Lots of positivity.

01:28:42   - People were happy about it.

01:28:43   Now, I don't want to do this every week,

01:28:47   but I would like it to be a recurring segment

01:28:50   if you are happy with that.

01:28:53   - I think so.

01:28:54   I think maybe we should even pick a frequency.

01:28:57   I think every week is probably asking a bit much,

01:29:00   but I have enjoyed movies with Myke

01:29:03   and we should definitely do it more, I think.

01:29:06   - Well, considering we're talking about "Real Genius" today,

01:29:10   I don't know, we'll see if you enjoy movies with Myke.

01:29:13   - Yeah, well, I enjoy movies. - It's your favorite movie.

01:29:15   - I enjoy, it's not my favorite movie,

01:29:16   it is one of my favorite movies and it is uh I enjoy movies with Myke regardless of

01:29:23   the outcome because it's fascinating because not only do we like you it is fascinating

01:29:28   to to use you in this experiment to see what about these movies that you haven't seen before

01:29:33   I wonder one bit of a hashtag ask upgrade regarding this which was just can we have

01:29:37   Myke watch a movie every week please and the answer is no not every week but some weeks

01:29:43   maybe. And this week. Maybe once a month and we decide like a X week of the month.

01:29:48   I think that's a good way to do it. Yay! Maybe the first Monday, something like

01:29:53   that. I think that would be fun. We should do that. And I like the idea of it

01:29:57   being obviously a movie that I have never seen before, typically a classic

01:30:01   movie. Let me be your guide to a movie you haven't seen. It's a real genius.

01:30:08   1985 comedy directed by Martha Coolidge called "Real Genius" starring Val Kilmer.

01:30:14   So I have some... my notes are written chronologically and I'm probably just

01:30:18   gonna go through them like I did last time, but I think I want to start this

01:30:23   week with my overall impressions of "Real Genius." And let me start... let me start by

01:30:29   saying the difference between "Real Genius" and "The Princess Bride," which we

01:30:33   talked about last week, is the... "Real Genius" is one of my favorite movies and I

01:30:38   feel a great deal of affection to it. It is also very much an 80s movie. The

01:30:43   Princess Bride I feel is a classic that I like it but I also would subject

01:30:50   people to that much earlier in the relationship than I would subject them

01:30:55   to real genius because I feel like Princess Bride is something that can be

01:30:59   appreciated by all ages and and over the course of you know many years it's just

01:31:04   become a classic and I have a great deal of affection for it. Real genius I love

01:31:07   I love it personally, but I think it's got more issues,

01:31:12   and it is much more of its time.

01:31:14   So I think that's just to compare and contrast here

01:31:17   with The Princess Bride.

01:31:20   I wouldn't file them under the same category in terms of--

01:31:24   even though they're both movies from the '80s.

01:31:26   So that's my opening statement.

01:31:28   And people should listen to either the incomparable episode

01:31:31   or the defocused episode that you did about Real Genius

01:31:34   to hear more about why you love the movie.

01:31:36   And I actually do wanna talk about that, but not yet.

01:31:38   I wanna get to that part shortly.

01:31:41   - Okay.

01:31:41   This is Movies with Myke, so you know, you're Myke.

01:31:45   - I'm running the show. - So there you go.

01:31:46   Go for it.

01:31:47   - I didn't hate this movie.

01:31:49   - All right, okay.

01:31:51   That's what John Siracusa said.

01:31:53   - Yeah, no, no, no, I think I'm gonna be better than him.

01:31:55   I didn't love this movie, but I did really like it.

01:31:58   There were parts of it that I didn't like

01:32:00   and there were parts of it that I really liked.

01:32:02   - Ooh, I'm fascinated now.

01:32:04   So together, I liked this movie.

01:32:07   But there was like a part of it like in the middle,

01:32:10   it felt like I was fighting through the movie.

01:32:13   And there are parts at the start which I get to

01:32:15   which I found very confusing.

01:32:16   But overall, I did actually enjoy it.

01:32:20   So let me, we will now walk through the plot.

01:32:23   - All right.

01:32:24   - Which I thought was such a terrible way of doing it.

01:32:25   People seemed to like it.

01:32:26   We'll walk through a plot and I'll give my kind of feelings

01:32:28   as we went through.

01:32:29   So the opening sequence has like that traditional

01:32:32   '80s opening sequence, but it's super long, so long, with really weird music.

01:32:38   - Oh yeah, it's "You Took Advantage of Me," which is a jazz song, and the idea there,

01:32:44   I never even thought about this until like a year ago, I hadn't even thought of this,

01:32:47   that it's really, the song is called "You Took Advantage of Me," and the point is that

01:32:52   they're taking advantage of the college students in the movie.

01:32:55   The professor and the government are taking advantage of them, but it's this weird, you

01:33:01   Now, my son says, you can tell when a movie's really old

01:33:04   'cause all the credits are at the beginning

01:33:06   and he's so right.

01:33:07   And this is like that.

01:33:08   They've got the jazz and then like pictures of diagrams

01:33:11   of like scientific diagrams and that goes on forever.

01:33:16   And then you've also got then the crossbow segment

01:33:21   where there's the spaceship that fires a laser

01:33:25   and the guys around the room and the Pentagon.

01:33:27   That's also, so you've got like a long opening

01:33:30   and then you've got this long kind of prologue.

01:33:34   - The prologue is fine, but like the opening sequence,

01:33:37   like the music is just weird.

01:33:39   Like I get the point, but like it doesn't fit

01:33:41   with the movie at all. - It doesn't fit

01:33:42   the rest of the movie at all.

01:33:43   I don't even think of that when I think of the movie.

01:33:47   It's just, it doesn't fit at all.

01:33:48   You just skip it.

01:33:49   - 'Cause one of the things I really loved in this movie

01:33:52   is the music, because it is--

01:33:55   - Yeah, it should be, the opening should be

01:33:57   like a wide shot of Pacific Tech, a crane shot,

01:34:01   slowly panning down as some really '80s song

01:34:05   from the soundtrack plays.

01:34:06   We'll say, since Brian Adams is on the soundtrack,

01:34:09   we could say that.

01:34:10   Maybe, or like ROCK in the USA, whatever,

01:34:14   something like that, something very '80s on the soundtrack,

01:34:17   and it would just be like, like Ghostbusters is,

01:34:19   real genius, and then fade out the name of the movie,

01:34:23   and we move down to discover what's happening in the quad.

01:34:26   that's probably how this movie should start, and instead it doesn't. It starts with a

01:34:31   jazz number over scientific diagrams.

01:34:34   And it's like, before the scientific diagrams, it's like cave drawings?

01:34:38   Yes, oh yeah, well it's the progression of, from cave drawings and like Michelangelo and

01:34:45   all the way up to like, uh, uh, uh, specs of lasers and military things. It's the history

01:34:52   of "it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit, I don't know." I think somebody got assigned to the

01:34:58   job by the studio of making a title sequence and this is what they came up with and that

01:35:04   nobody cared. So let's not talk about that anymore, I agree with you. I am going to check

01:35:08   the box there, yes, Myke, it is not a good opening credit sequence.

01:35:13   - Everything about the prologue, I love, I love it. It's because it's like "we're in

01:35:17   space and it's like oh we're in space and then it's like really dark room of

01:35:22   people sitting in a triangle they must be super evil and it's like I love it I

01:35:26   love it because it's so one of my favorite things about this movie is how

01:35:32   they they waste no time in telegraphing things to you it's like this is how that

01:35:39   you need to feel about these people and we're gonna make you feel it and I

01:35:43   I really like it. It's like lasers from space, no way! And then it's like when the guy, one of the

01:35:49   guys is like, "Oh, I don't want nothing to do with this." It's like, what does it think we'll have to

01:35:53   liquidate him? Liquidate him! Oh no, we'll have to liberate him. And then the guy says, "Liberate? You

01:35:59   mean liquidate?" And he goes, nods, "Yes." Because it's kind of like, yeah, you're gonna kill him.

01:36:04   It's just, it's great. They're evil. Well, there's the line, there's the line where they're like,

01:36:10   "Okay, well, we'll watch this movie about blinding techniques and then we'll have some

01:36:13   lunch."

01:36:14   And then it's like, in another example of it, then we go to the first time that we see

01:36:22   our hero.

01:36:23   Yes.

01:36:24   And it's Chris, right?

01:36:26   I don't know how...

01:36:27   Chris Knight, yeah.

01:36:28   Chris Knight, yeah.

01:36:29   Played by Val Kilmer.

01:36:30   I forgot that.

01:36:31   So we see, and then he's like wearing a head bopper, right?

01:36:35   And bunny slippers.

01:36:36   It's like, "This guy must be crazy!"

01:36:38   You know, you kind of, it's like another example of like,

01:36:40   this guy's mad, okay, so you're gonna see that

01:36:43   from the way that we're presenting him.

01:36:45   So it was kind of silly,

01:36:47   but it's like the same sort of idea, right?

01:36:48   They are making sure that you know

01:36:51   everything you need to know about these people

01:36:52   by looking at them.

01:36:54   One of the things I noticed

01:36:56   that I found quite distracting at the start is,

01:36:58   the cuts, like the edits are really abrupt,

01:37:01   especially in like the first third of the movie.

01:37:04   There's lots of like really sharp edits

01:37:07   with very differing like diegetic sound.

01:37:12   Look at me.

01:37:13   So it's like you're at one point you're hearing like

01:37:17   we're quietly in an office.

01:37:20   Now we're at a party, now we're in a bedroom.

01:37:22   So it's like just these real sharp changes to the audio

01:37:26   and it was quite frustrating to watch I think.

01:37:29   There are also some questionable word choices

01:37:32   especially at the start of the movie

01:37:35   which don't need to be said.

01:37:37   I don't wanna repeat the word.

01:37:39   It's not a bad word, but it's like clearly

01:37:41   they got clearance for a certain word

01:37:43   and they kept using it.

01:37:44   - So we talk about this in the episode in the "Indie Focused"

01:37:47   and in fact play a game called

01:37:52   "Certain Word for Anatomy or Montage"

01:37:56   which is how many of the one word are used

01:37:59   versus how many montages are in the movie.

01:38:01   And it goes back and forth.

01:38:02   It's a battle throughout the movie.

01:38:03   And yes, at the time when I saw this movie

01:38:06   for the first time, I thought, they say that word a lot.

01:38:09   Why are they saying that word and no other,

01:38:11   there's like no, there's no swearing in this movie.

01:38:14   There's just the one anatomical reference

01:38:16   that gets made repeatedly.

01:38:18   And as far as I can tell, yeah, they had a,

01:38:22   that was their dispensation is, you can say that one word,

01:38:24   but you can't go beyond that.

01:38:26   All right.

01:38:28   But it does, it seems like the movie's

01:38:29   a little overly obsessed with the single word.

01:38:32   But like the three or four times it is used,

01:38:34   two of them are so weird and really out of context.

01:38:38   Like, doesn't make any sense.

01:38:40   Like, can you use it to knock a nail into a--

01:38:43   - Hammer a section spike through a board.

01:38:46   - Like, why are you saying this?

01:38:49   No one's ever used that phrase.

01:38:51   Anyway, very peculiar.

01:38:54   William Atherton. - I agree with you.

01:38:55   - William Atherton is my favorite 80s villain

01:38:58   'cause he's just so slimy.

01:39:00   So this is, I think this is his pinnacle.

01:39:05   I think he's great in "Die Hard" and "Ghostbusters,"

01:39:08   but I think he has more to do.

01:39:10   And he's so great at being so slimy.

01:39:13   Here he is like the slimy Carl Sagan, right?

01:39:15   He is Mr. Famous Scientist guy, and he is just a weasel.

01:39:20   He's exploiting his grad students.

01:39:22   He's trying to put one over on the government.

01:39:26   He's having sex with the government,

01:39:28   with the general's daughter.

01:39:30   I mean, he is just the worst and the best

01:39:33   'cause it's so great to watch him work.

01:39:35   - And I agree, like I love his character,

01:39:39   especially in "Ghostbusters" as well.

01:39:40   - Oh yeah.

01:39:41   - Because there's something about him

01:39:43   where he just plays the guy that you wanna hate

01:39:45   so fantastically, but you're right, in this movie,

01:39:48   he's one of the star roles, where in the other movies,

01:39:51   he's kind of just like the annoying thing.

01:39:54   - Yeah, he pops in to bother you and then he pops out again.

01:39:56   - And like he's used in those movies

01:39:58   to kind of advance the story a bit more,

01:40:00   but in this he is actually the story.

01:40:03   - Yeah, he's essentially the antagonist in the movie,

01:40:07   even though there is this weird laser plot

01:40:10   with the government that comes and goes,

01:40:13   you know, really he's the bad guy throughout.

01:40:16   - So we kind of have two heroes.

01:40:18   So we've mentioned Chris, and then we also have Mitch,

01:40:22   who would seem at least maybe in the first half

01:40:26   of the movie to be your hero,

01:40:28   but it kind of goes backwards and forwards a bit,

01:40:30   which I like that.

01:40:31   There's like, there's two heroes to this movie.

01:40:34   And I think that's pretty cool.

01:40:35   Like you don't really, I can't think of many movies

01:40:37   where you see that so much.

01:40:39   And they're both very different,

01:40:40   but you root for them both.

01:40:41   And they don't, there's never a moment where they fight,

01:40:45   which is, would be such an easy thing to do.

01:40:47   And it would usually be the middle part

01:40:49   of this kind of movie.

01:40:50   - Sure.

01:40:51   - They get upset at each other and they move away,

01:40:53   but that doesn't happen.

01:40:55   - No, I mean, he gets a little,

01:40:58   He gets mad when he gets taken to the pool party

01:41:01   and gets yelled at, but he's more just frustrated

01:41:05   and leaves, but you're right.

01:41:06   There's that like, in act two, you would have the moment

01:41:09   where they, in a romantic comedy,

01:41:11   that's where they break up and then they realize

01:41:13   they're meant for each other.

01:41:14   In a buddy comedy like this,

01:41:16   you would imagine that they would have that moment,

01:41:18   but instead what happens is each of them

01:41:20   has their moment of despair,

01:41:22   where the other one talks them out of it.

01:41:25   And that's how they do it instead,

01:41:26   They both despair for their own futures and their own lives, and the other one says it's a moral imperative,

01:41:33   you know, we'll get back at them, but you can't let this affect you.

01:41:36   So that's—you're right, it's neat that that's how they end up doing it, is instead they're—they both—

01:41:42   the world causes them trouble, and the other one, the counterpart, says, "We'll get through this."

01:41:48   I love when Mitch is first introduced to, like, the rest of the—I don't know what you call them,

01:41:54   like the laser group, the science group.

01:41:56   - Yeah.

01:41:57   - And like they're all--

01:41:58   - Laser group, that's good, yeah.

01:41:59   - They're already like, they're bothering him,

01:42:02   but then it's just--

01:42:03   - Well, it's like a 14 year old kid

01:42:05   has been brought into these graduate students

01:42:06   and told he's in charge of you now,

01:42:08   because he's a genius and you guys are only,

01:42:11   you know, you're last year's geniuses.

01:42:13   - But what I love is they're having problems with the laser

01:42:16   and Mitch just turns a dial and he fixes it.

01:42:20   It's like, he's a genius, he turned the dial.

01:42:22   - He's a genius.

01:42:23   (laughing)

01:42:24   And it's just, again, it's like another thing to show you,

01:42:27   this guy's really smart, okay, you turn the dial.

01:42:30   - And these other guys are kind of jerks

01:42:33   and don't really know what they're doing.

01:42:35   - They're like nerd jocks, which is really weird,

01:42:37   but that's kind of--

01:42:38   - Well, this is a whole movie where it's all nerds

01:42:42   in Caltech, essentially, Pacific Tech is Caltech.

01:42:45   And one of the funny things about the movie is,

01:42:48   it came out around the same time as a movie

01:42:50   like "Revenge of the Nerds" or "Weird Science."

01:42:53   But in this movie, it's not like stereotypical,

01:42:57   like nerds in a world with nerds and jocks and stuff.

01:43:00   It's like, they're all super smart people.

01:43:02   And then there's the social stratifications

01:43:04   like inside the super smart people group.

01:43:07   So you're, but you're right.

01:43:08   There are like the humorless jocks who try to haze this kid

01:43:13   'cause finally they've got somebody that they can beat up on

01:43:16   this 14 year old kid, 15 year old kid.

01:43:18   - I really like Jordan's introduction.

01:43:21   She's one of, if not my favorite character of the movie,

01:43:24   because she's so peculiar.

01:43:26   And you guys kind of talk about this.

01:43:29   She's not really sexualized in any way.

01:43:31   You've spoken, I think you were talking about

01:43:33   something defocused.

01:43:34   And where later she becomes a love interest,

01:43:37   it's not, she seems kind of like on level footing,

01:43:40   and where some of the other women in the movie

01:43:42   are a bit dim.

01:43:43   - This is not a strong movie

01:43:46   in terms of women's roles.

01:43:50   but there are signs in it of,

01:43:54   I wanna say of the director,

01:43:55   'cause this movie was directed by a woman,

01:43:57   that there are some signs in it,

01:43:59   and Jordan is a really smart, strong character.

01:44:01   She's not there to be anybody's girlfriend,

01:44:03   although she is kind of swept into a romance element

01:44:06   with Mitch later.

01:44:08   She's their equal.

01:44:10   It's never questioned that she doesn't belong

01:44:15   at Pacific Tech, and she's actually kind of brilliant

01:44:17   and can't sleep and knits a sweater overnight

01:44:20   and does all this other crazy stuff.

01:44:22   It is, yeah, she's definitely the best female character

01:44:27   in the movie, but she's a great character.

01:44:29   She might be, yeah, she's one of my favorite characters

01:44:31   in the movie too, because she's so, yeah,

01:44:34   the hyper genius kind of character.

01:44:37   And that's one of the things,

01:44:38   you've got so many smart people in this movie

01:44:40   that you get to see all these different types of genius

01:44:43   that come out, and she's the one that's like the super hyper

01:44:46   I don't even sleep person.

01:44:49   - It was at this moment, so they're like the scene

01:44:51   when they're ice skating in the hallway,

01:44:54   that I noticed that Kent looks about 10 years older

01:44:56   than everybody else.

01:44:57   - Yeah, well it's the Ascot.

01:44:59   That's the Ascot.

01:45:00   - Like they put braces on him.

01:45:02   In an attempt maybe to make him look younger.

01:45:03   I know it's used as a plot device later,

01:45:05   but he's visibly older than everybody else.

01:45:08   - Grad students, you know, they range.

01:45:10   They range in age.

01:45:11   - Okay, you're defending this.

01:45:12   I'm gonna move along.

01:45:13   - Oh no, I think it's the Ascot.

01:45:15   Again, I point you to the Ascot.

01:45:17   The Oscar makes all the difference.

01:45:19   - Why doesn't that guy wash his hands in the bathroom?

01:45:23   - You know, that drives me crazy too.

01:45:26   And it's just such a little moment, but yeah.

01:45:29   'Cause there's a guy who's peeing

01:45:32   and then he runs out of the bathroom

01:45:34   and then Jordan runs in, right?

01:45:35   To show Mitch the sweater she's working on.

01:45:39   - Yeah.

01:45:40   - And the guy just runs out and he doesn't wash his hands.

01:45:42   - It's just so strange. - I don't know.

01:45:44   I don't think we even know who that guy is.

01:45:46   It's just in there.

01:45:46   When you watch the movie as many times as I have, you do start to notice all these strange

01:45:50   things in the corners of the movie that nobody would ever have been expected to notice when

01:45:54   they watched it.

01:45:56   And then we kind of see one of the first moments of Chris's weird genius where he gets some

01:46:02   liquid nitrogen out of the freezer, cuts a slice of it, and uses it as a coin in the

01:46:07   coffee machine.

01:46:08   Right.

01:46:09   The idea that it evaporate.

01:46:11   I think I mentioned this on these other podcasts that we've talked about this.

01:46:14   I think the screenwriters literally had like a checklist

01:46:18   of all of these famous stories about Caltech and pranks

01:46:23   and other wacky things that the students at Caltech would do.

01:46:26   And I think this is one of those,

01:46:28   that there was like some student who realized

01:46:30   that they could take ice or dry ice or liquid nitrogen

01:46:34   or something like that.

01:46:34   They could take something that was frozen

01:46:37   and match it to the size of a coin

01:46:40   and use it to buy something in a vending machine

01:46:43   and then it would evaporate.

01:46:44   I think that's actually where it came from.

01:46:46   But it's a funny,

01:46:47   I'm not sure it actually would work like that

01:46:49   'cause I think there's like,

01:46:51   these days they're used based on magnetic signatures,

01:46:54   but back then it may have just been the size of the coin.

01:46:57   - We then get our first montage.

01:47:00   And it's- - So many montages.

01:47:02   - It's so beautiful and I love it so much.

01:47:04   We have really strong 80s music

01:47:06   and it's just a montage of Mitch learning stuff

01:47:09   and fitting in and making friends.

01:47:12   and there's some interesting things that,

01:47:15   boom boxes in the class,

01:47:17   at first I was like, I don't understand,

01:47:18   and then I realized that they're using them

01:47:20   as tape recorders.

01:47:21   - Yes.

01:47:22   - But the visual of a classroom full of boom boxes

01:47:25   was very confusing to me.

01:47:27   But then the payoff of the montage is at one point,

01:47:31   Mitch goes to class and there's a bunch of tape recorders,

01:47:34   and then the professor is just playing his lecture

01:47:36   from a reel to reel on the desk.

01:47:39   And it's just a good visual 'cause he's older,

01:47:42   so he's using the reel-to-reel and the kids using the boob boxes, and also of course the

01:47:45   teachers just giving up at that point because Mitch is the only one that goes to class.

01:47:49   And this has got to be a commentary on college in the 80s that people were starting to record

01:47:53   lectures and record them for other people, and I think this is the commentary that the

01:47:57   logical conclusion of that is that everybody will just leave their tape recorder at the

01:48:02   beginning of the lecture, at which point the professor will say, "Well, screw this, I'm

01:48:06   going to just tape my lecture and play it back to them," which is that—I like this

01:48:11   montage to it is I said this on defocus that you know I love a good montage and

01:48:16   I think that montages are effective in or can be effective in telling you a

01:48:24   story that you just don't need exposition you just you you we don't

01:48:28   need to see all of these scenes with Mitch becoming more learning about

01:48:33   lasers and becoming part of the group we just we got it we got a quick montage of

01:48:37   it. There's some jokes and then we also understand now that time has passed and he's part of

01:48:41   the group and yes there's super 80s music while the montage plays because it's the 80s,

01:48:47   there's montages. Those happen in real life in the 80s by the way Myke. Every now and

01:48:51   then you'd hear a synthesizer playing and you'd be in a montage and you just have to

01:48:54   go with it. It was like a tornado or something. It's like "Oh we're in a montage now" and

01:48:58   then that would go and then you'd wake up and the music would stop and it'd be like

01:49:01   three months later and you would have a mustache. It's very strange.

01:49:04   and you'd either be a genius or you would have grown 20 pounds in muscle.

01:49:09   This montage does include, I think, the worst direction in the whole movie. There is a moment,

01:49:18   like a 20 second clip or something like that, where Chris and Mitch are talking to each other.

01:49:24   Are talking, yeah. I can only assume that was a cut scene and they decided to put it in there,

01:49:29   but it's infuriating because they're saying things and you can't hear them.

01:49:32   It doesn't make any sense because they're just passing each other in class and then

01:49:35   they're like having a conversation and it's like what is this showing me? They can talk?

01:49:41   Like they could be arguing.

01:49:42   I think they wanted a little more 80s music there.

01:49:44   I just didn't get it.

01:49:46   Nope, I'm with you.

01:49:48   Another thing I didn't get, what is Dr. Hathaway's show about?

01:49:52   Well, it's everything. It's about everything. It's about science.

01:49:57   The colon.

01:49:58   - The colon, what does it look like?

01:50:01   That's not the question we ask about the colon.

01:50:04   Now, like I said, I get the impression

01:50:06   that he's a local celebrity

01:50:09   or maybe even distributed more nationally

01:50:12   since Mitch's parents recognize him

01:50:15   and the people at the science fair recognize him too.

01:50:18   He's like, yeah, he's a low rent Carl Sagan.

01:50:20   He's got some PBS show where he talks every week

01:50:23   about some scientific topic.

01:50:25   And I think they vary wildly, obviously,

01:50:28   he's not talking about lasers or physics that week, he's talking about the colon. Which

01:50:32   it sounds like, it's perfect because it makes it just seem like this is not a show you would

01:50:36   want to watch.

01:50:39   So then we get to like the pool party thing, and I'm gonna come back to that in a moment.

01:50:45   The tanning invitational?

01:50:47   I don't know what that means. Does that mean anything?

01:50:50   Like tanning?

01:50:51   Well invitational, so it's like a tournament, like a tennis invitational or something. It's

01:50:56   it's a competition, it's meaningless. But they invited the girls from the School of

01:51:02   Beauty down the block.

01:51:03   The beautician students.

01:51:04   Yep.

01:51:05   They're not beauticians, they're beautician students.

01:51:07   Yeah.

01:51:08   Okay. And I'll come back to that in a moment because it's a bit... Dr. Hershkam is something

01:51:13   else I want to talk about. But at this party, Mitch gets berated by Dr. Hathaway.

01:51:21   Yes.

01:51:22   Why are Mitch's parents such horrible people?

01:51:25   - Yeah, he calls them on the phone and--

01:51:29   - Like you can't come home,

01:51:31   we've rented out your bedroom to the plumber.

01:51:33   (laughing)

01:51:35   - I don't know, they're, I mean, they're trying,

01:51:37   the story is trying to trap Mitch there,

01:51:39   but you do get the sense that,

01:51:43   I think what the movie is trying to do,

01:51:45   this is a good question,

01:51:46   I think what the movie is trying to do is isolate Mitch

01:51:48   and say, look, home is not a place for Mitch.

01:51:50   Why can't he just go back and go to high school

01:51:52   like a regular kid?

01:51:53   It's like, he's not a regular kid.

01:51:54   His parents don't understand him.

01:51:56   His parents don't understand anything about him.

01:51:59   And it's not that they're necessarily terrible people,

01:52:02   but they're kind of clueless and it's not a home for him.

01:52:05   And so when they say, "We've rented out your room,"

01:52:07   I think that is the message here,

01:52:09   is that he can't go back there.

01:52:11   He can't go home again.

01:52:12   He needs to make it with his people at the college.

01:52:17   He has to make it at the college.

01:52:20   So, but it is, yeah, there are lots of jokes.

01:52:23   There, you know, right from the beginning

01:52:25   where Hathaway says, "Are you adopted?"

01:52:27   Or, "Is Mitch adopted?" - Yeah, 'cause his parents

01:52:28   seem kind of stupid. - And they're like,

01:52:29   "No, he's not, it's like amazing."

01:52:31   Yeah.

01:52:32   - And then there's like the prank where Kent

01:52:36   and the other nerd jocks have--

01:52:41   - They record his conversation and play it back

01:52:43   over the PA in the cafeteria, yeah.

01:52:46   - Which then leads to-- - Boo.

01:52:49   probably my favorite part of the movie,

01:52:51   and I think the reason that you love this movie,

01:52:54   is Chris then has a monologue about never fitting in.

01:52:58   And like how he had to change,

01:53:01   like he said, you know, I was like you, I was--

01:53:04   - I used to be you, yeah.

01:53:06   - Yeah, I had a briefcase, you know, and I had no friends.

01:53:09   And then he talks about Laszlo, right?

01:53:12   The guy who lives in the wardrobe.

01:53:14   - Yeah, lives in the closet, exactly.

01:53:18   - Or it turns out in the steam tunnels underneath the building, but he enters through the closet to get there.

01:53:22   - And then it's like, you know, he says, "I saw him and I saw what his life was like, and I decided that I needed to change."

01:53:28   And it's just, it was interesting to me because it was kind of a thing that I went through.

01:53:32   Like, I was kind of a nerd, and then I kind of got in with a more popular crowd and kind of changed.

01:53:39   I changed as a person and became more sociable.

01:53:44   And I think that that is maybe,

01:53:47   'cause I know that you talk about the movie

01:53:48   and how it has these people in it

01:53:50   and it has a real meaning to it.

01:53:52   So that felt to me like that is definitely

01:53:55   a part of the movie that you love.

01:53:57   - Yeah, I mean this is the going off to college story

01:54:01   in many ways, which is that when Chris says,

01:54:04   "I used to be you," and lately I've been missing me

01:54:07   so I asked Jerry if I could room with myself again,

01:54:10   that he's telling Mitch, this is the arc

01:54:13   of your time in college is you're gonna start

01:54:16   as this innocent kid and you're gonna end up

01:54:18   in one of two places.

01:54:20   You're gonna either be the guy who just stands up

01:54:22   at the table in the study hall where everybody's studying

01:54:26   in the library and starts screaming and runs out.

01:54:30   You're either gonna be that guy or Laszlo

01:54:32   who's completely burned out and lives in the steam tunnels.

01:54:34   Or you're gonna have to adapt

01:54:37   and not take things so seriously and be me.

01:54:40   And then Chris realizes that he's still got

01:54:43   his own issues, right? But it is, so we start talking about adapting and growing, which

01:54:51   is part of the, for me, I mean, that was part of the college experience. It's certainly

01:54:54   part of the just adolescent experience. And then, you know, the other thing that I like

01:54:59   about that and the rest of the characters here is that they're all really smart people

01:55:04   and they have a variety of different traits, but they're all smart. And the movie is not

01:55:09   about the smart people against the dumb people, it's not about how the ways that it's embarrassing

01:55:14   to be a smart nerdy person, it is, you know, they're all smart nerdy people and it's just

01:55:19   a matter of like, who do you want to be as a person? Because you are a smart nerdy person,

01:55:23   that part is given, who do you want to be? And that's what, that's really what Chris

01:55:26   is saying when he's talking to Mitch too.

01:55:30   So then there's this whole like altercation between Jerry and Chris and, you know, Jerry's

01:55:36   unhappy with the work that Chris is doing that kind of thing yeah and he

01:55:40   basically he basically says to him you're not gonna graduate and then we

01:55:45   have the other moment with Mitch and Chris where Mitch basically makes it all

01:55:48   better you know but what I've what I failed to understand is how was getting

01:55:54   even with Jerry like why was the result that Chris was going to work harder I

01:56:00   I didn't get that. Like, how was that the getting even?

01:56:05   Well, that's a good question. I think Chris decided he was going to be the model student

01:56:13   and make it that, you know, that Jerry would just have to entirely fail him out of spite.

01:56:21   I think that was probably part of it. And is that getting even?

01:56:26   I don't know, they're probably plotting terrible things to do to Jerry Hathaway on their way out the door or whatever,

01:56:31   or Chris is plotting his way to appeal to somebody else to save him.

01:56:36   But I think primarily he's just saying, "Okay, well, I'm gonna..."

01:56:41   Like he says to Jerry, "If you think you can make me do this, that's where you're right."

01:56:46   It's like, Chris doesn't have a lot of... Chris has a lot of pride, but he doesn't have a lot of leeway here.

01:56:51   He's gotta solve the laser problem or he's not gonna graduate.

01:56:55   And so when Jerry gives him the ultimatum,

01:56:58   you know, basically says, you're done, you know, yeah.

01:57:01   Chris is basically saying, okay, well,

01:57:02   I'm gonna go back to being Mr. Perfect Student then,

01:57:04   except I'm gonna give you an exploding apple

01:57:07   for the teacher.

01:57:09   I don't know.

01:57:10   It's funny, it's funny.

01:57:11   That's the, I think that's the reaction though

01:57:13   that he does is, okay, I guess I'm gonna go back to work

01:57:16   because otherwise what is he gonna do?

01:57:18   Blow up Jerry's house?

01:57:19   Maybe, maybe.

01:57:22   So now we have what I consider to be the worst part of the movie and I can't get, I still

01:57:30   can't get over this because then it sets off a chain of events that I find really kind

01:57:36   of uncomfortable.

01:57:37   How old is Mitch?

01:57:40   Oh, he's I think 15.

01:57:43   Right, because we have the scene where, and I don't fully understand, I didn't understand

01:57:48   this as it was happening.

01:57:49   Sherry appears.

01:57:50   Yep, yep.

01:57:51   - Yep, no, you're right.

01:57:52   I said this when I was talking to Joe and Dan on Defocus,

01:57:58   that it feels like this movie is like five different

01:58:02   rewrites, each of which was given a task to do

01:58:04   to make it like other movies.

01:58:06   And this is the teen sex comedy rewrite,

01:58:10   where they've said, "We're gonna have this character

01:58:11   "who keeps coming back and her goal is to sleep,"

01:58:14   probably again, this was an urban legend of some kind,

01:58:16   "sleep with the top 10 minds in the country."

01:58:19   That's her goal is to have had sex with all of them.

01:58:22   And so she comes to Pacific Tech

01:58:26   and is waiting to ambush Mitch in his room.

01:58:29   And she like kisses him and she's like, whatever, 30, 35?

01:58:35   - Really? - She's not young.

01:58:37   And he's like 15.

01:58:38   - Because then, I mean,

01:58:41   he kind of pulls out of that experience.

01:58:44   So that's weird enough.

01:58:45   And what you find out later is she's attracted

01:58:48   to smart people, right?

01:58:49   - Yes.

01:58:50   - And she was always looking for Laszlo,

01:58:51   who was the smartest.

01:58:52   But then you just go from them, Mitch,

01:58:56   getting into his love affair with Jordan,

01:59:00   who's gotta be what, 18, 19 minimum?

01:59:03   - Yeah.

01:59:04   Yeah, she's probably eight, probably something like that.

01:59:06   I mean, you can tell, 'cause it's movie actors,

01:59:09   and this is apparently a college that admits people at 14.

01:59:12   So, or 18. - It's just so weird to me.

01:59:15   Like, I don't understand.

01:59:16   if they wanted to do the sex comedy thing, Chris was the obvious answer for it. Because he is the

01:59:23   like the Van Wilder character. [Laughter]

01:59:27   Yep, yeah I know what you're saying, that is hilarious. I think the Mitch and Jordan thing

01:59:34   is played as being sweet and innocent, like neither of them is particularly socially

01:59:44   adept and that what they're doing is expressing their interest in each other but neither of them

01:59:51   is particularly good at doing it and I kind of don't have a problem with that. I think

01:59:55   you have to read it on that level which is it is a very sweet innocent kind of interest that maybe

02:00:02   will blossom into something else but I think you know I don't think Jordan comes across as being

02:00:08   this, you know, experienced, you know, senior college student who is making the moves on

02:00:16   a little kid. I think that we're to read that as that she's sort of the same emotional age

02:00:22   as Mitch. Another interesting thing about Jordan is you could argue today, we look at

02:00:28   a character like Jordan and say, she probably places somewhere on the spectrum, the sort

02:00:33   of the autism spectrum or Asperger's spectrum.

02:00:36   She's very, she's got some, I mean, again,

02:00:39   it's a movie character.

02:00:40   She doesn't actually exist and they're picking up traits

02:00:44   and using them in the movie.

02:00:45   But I think it's actually a very interesting portrayal

02:00:48   that she's got these really quirky traits

02:00:51   and is not portrayed as anything other than who she is.

02:00:55   And, but I do think that she's,

02:00:59   she's intended to be innocent in the same way that Mitch is.

02:01:04   And that's why she's so upset about Sherry

02:01:06   trying to ambush Mitch and put the moves on him

02:01:11   because she's got this kind of innocent interest in him.

02:01:14   I don't know, that's my rationalization of it.

02:01:17   - But like that is illegal in the US though, right?

02:01:19   - I think it depends on where you are.

02:01:21   If one of them's 18 and one of them's 15, I don't know.

02:01:25   Let's just say, Myke, that this never came up for me.

02:01:29   [LAUGHTER]

02:01:31   These laws, I never was concerned with them.

02:01:33   But my understanding is it varies from state to state.

02:01:35   And it depends on the specific ages and the existing

02:01:37   relationships and all of that.

02:01:38   But I think nobody's going to bat an eye at a couple of college

02:01:43   students holding hands and talking about going steady,

02:01:46   which is probably the most that we would get from Jordan

02:01:49   and Mitch at that point.

02:01:51   OK.

02:01:52   It was just really weird to me.

02:01:53   It is.

02:01:54   That whole thing shouldn't be there.

02:01:56   And you're right.

02:01:57   Chris Knight is the Van Wilder.

02:01:58   He should be the one having the wild.

02:02:00   I mean, he picks up on the one student beautician,

02:02:02   but I mean, he should be the one

02:02:04   with the girls falling all over him.

02:02:06   And that doesn't happen.

02:02:08   Or boys, whatever, but it doesn't happen.

02:02:10   Instead, Val Kilmer's just kind of like,

02:02:11   "Boop, he's around."

02:02:13   And he makes the pass at the,

02:02:16   which is actually one of the worst pickup lines ever

02:02:19   with the student beauticians.

02:02:21   His pickup line is,

02:02:22   "Don't eat that or you'll get large breasts.

02:02:24   Oh no, I'm too late."

02:02:26   - Really, you think that's gonna win her over, dude?

02:02:29   - It looked like it did though.

02:02:31   - Well, that's 'cause she's in a movie.

02:02:34   - Student beauticians.

02:02:36   - Student beauticians.

02:02:37   - Anyway, so then we have like the danger point

02:02:42   and this one is like another point where I think

02:02:45   that the movie is expecting you to know more than you do,

02:02:49   which is when Kent puts like oil on the laser lens.

02:02:52   - Yeah.

02:02:53   - Like I did, I assumed that wasn't good.

02:02:55   I had no idea what that was gonna do.

02:02:57   - I don't know.

02:02:58   Yeah, I, yeah.

02:03:00   Spite, he's just, he's doing Spite to wreck the experiment.

02:03:03   I think it's meant to be read at that, again,

02:03:05   the super simple level, which is I messed up the optics,

02:03:08   the laser's all about optics.

02:03:09   There's a smudge on the optics

02:03:12   and everything is gonna get messed up.

02:03:14   And that's his revenge for them.

02:03:19   I think, is that his revenge for assembling his,

02:03:21   disassembling his car and reassembling it in his room,

02:03:24   which is something that apparently really happened

02:03:25   Caltech yeah yeah then we have this like then a bunch of things happen so then

02:03:31   they like did the laser works they have no concern for safety as the laser

02:03:36   shoots holes on everything in the entire town yeah lights a bill it's a

02:03:42   billboard on fire burrows a hole through a metal statue like every last through

02:03:47   blast through the whole building but it works it's a breakthrough

02:03:51   Has anybody ever tested the science? Like do you know of?

02:03:56   My understanding is that they had a scientific consultant and the stuff they're talking about

02:04:00   is vaguely, you know, sciencey enough, vaguely laser-y. But yeah, I like the cavalier attitude

02:04:07   they've got to lasers at a few points where Chris has got a catchers mask on, or he puts

02:04:13   on some sunglasses.

02:04:16   So the point of that, right, they're testing the laser and they're shooting it at a metal

02:04:20   target so they're assuming it will go

02:04:22   through the mantle because they put cinder blocks

02:04:24   behind it right then they stand

02:04:26   behind like a glass screen like a I assume

02:04:29   bulletproof but that's not safe right by

02:04:31   your standards of what you expect this

02:04:33   to do anyway then there's like the whole

02:04:36   action sequence like so now like the laser

02:04:40   has been made and Chris via Laszlo's

02:04:42   helps come to the realization that it's

02:04:44   gonna be used for evil and they go to

02:04:46   the army base and for me this is where

02:04:46   the moment where the plot of the movie enters and the previous plot, which is

02:04:53   hijinks in college, ends and now we're in the like serious government plot

02:04:58   reasserts itself. So this is that moment where this becomes a very

02:05:02   different movie I think. When László comes to them at the burger place and says, you

02:05:06   know, "Congratulations on building a giant laser. What do you think they're

02:05:08   gonna do with it? Probably kill people." It's weird that in like a two-hour movie

02:05:13   last 30 minutes is when your main character's character develops. Like this is where Chris

02:05:19   gets his character because he's like "oh no I don't want to hurt anyone" it was weird

02:05:24   I found it weird but then it's like this 80s action movie kind of sequence right it's like

02:05:29   will we get caught I don't know here's some interesting hacking that we're doing. Oh you

02:05:34   gotta love that you gotta love the hacking there's like modems and they're like doing

02:05:37   war dialing like in war games and they've got like little EPROMs and

02:05:43   PROMs so they're they're programming chips to swap in and then there's fake

02:05:47   mustaches involved and it's a whole like kind of poorly done low-budget

02:05:53   caper happening there but with some great old tech. And then it's like so that

02:05:59   that kind of moves on and they adjust the coordinates of the laser so. Yes

02:06:03   There's a fake plane that's flying, a very fake plane.

02:06:07   Oh, yeah.

02:06:09   That's very, very much a toy plane.

02:06:11   And they adjust the coordinates so that the laser does not hit the

02:06:16   Kennedy assassination-esque target in the desert, but instead hits Jerry Hathaway's house,

02:06:24   which they've filled with a homemade, giant Jiffy Pop popcorn, so that the heat of the laser pops

02:06:30   all of the popcorn instantaneously,

02:06:32   thereby exploding the house.

02:06:35   - For as stupid as it is, I was satisfied with that ending.

02:06:38   - Oh, it's a great ending.

02:06:40   It's just that all the plain stuff to get to it

02:06:42   is kind of totally ridiculous.

02:06:44   But as an end, I mean, obviously they're like,

02:06:47   "You know what would make a great ending?"

02:06:49   And then let's work back from there

02:06:50   to come figure out what to do.

02:06:52   - I can't even imagine how much work that must have been.

02:06:55   - And again, you get that great, you get the great,

02:06:57   I mean, so we skip, there's a montage later

02:07:01   which is making the laser.

02:07:02   So the first montage is learning how to do lasers.

02:07:04   And the second montage is we're gonna build this laser

02:07:06   and figure it out.

02:07:08   And then at the end you get the,

02:07:09   everybody wants to rule the world,

02:07:11   Tears for Fears playing over the end credits

02:07:12   as the kids frolic in the popcorn.

02:07:15   - I love that ending.

02:07:17   I love that song.

02:07:19   - Yeah, it's a great song.

02:07:20   - That ending is fantastic.

02:07:21   So having spoken about this movie with you now,

02:07:26   I now like it more.

02:07:27   I really enjoyed this movie. There are some fundamental problems with it.

02:07:33   There are some really earth-shattering issues, like moral problems I have with the movie.

02:07:39   But it is exactly... It's basically the 80s movie.

02:07:47   Everything that happened in 80s movies is in this movie.

02:07:51   Pretty much.

02:07:52   And I like it for that. I like it a lot for that.

02:07:55   And like I said, I don't think they're that, especially in this period, I don't think there are a lot of movies that celebrate smart people.

02:08:03   And, um, and these characters are all smart and they're not villains.

02:08:09   I mean, there are villains among them.

02:08:10   There are heroes among them.

02:08:12   I really liked that.

02:08:12   And as a smart kid growing up in a small town to have, see the, see the positive portrayal of these geeky people that they have lives and they're going to college and they have relationships and friendships.

02:08:24   And that was all something that I really appreciated at the time.

02:08:27   And even to this day, I mean, not to get, not to bring everybody down here,

02:08:32   but I, they're still in modern culture, a surprising amount of anti-intellectualism.

02:08:39   Like being smart is a bad thing.

02:08:41   And one of the things I like about real genius is being smart is not a bad thing.

02:08:45   It is not a bad thing in this movie and the smart people can have their own,

02:08:49   you know, dumb eighties movie too.

02:08:51   And this is, you know, it's got smart parts and dumb parts,

02:08:54   and the laser plane is not a highlight, but, you know,

02:08:59   I think you've nailed it in terms of the reason

02:09:03   that I like it and the stuff that I like in it,

02:09:05   and why I'm so fond of it,

02:09:07   even though I'm well aware of its issues.

02:09:09   - Yeah, so I'm pleased I've seen this movie now.

02:09:14   It's like a movie that I've known of and known about,

02:09:17   like that existed for years, and I've known the name, right?

02:09:21   but I'm happy that this is on my list.

02:09:23   This is a warm, this movie warmed my heart a little bit,

02:09:28   even for its peculiarness.

02:09:30   - It is a very strange movie.

02:09:32   - But I'm happy that I've seen it.

02:09:33   - I'm glad that you didn't hate it

02:09:35   and that you've warmed up to it a little bit.

02:09:37   And yeah, it's got a lot of funny,

02:09:40   strange, funny little bits in it that I enjoy

02:09:42   and a nice set of characters,

02:09:44   which I think is what puts it over the top that we've got.

02:09:47   I don't understand quite why there are so many characters

02:09:50   because there are several characters

02:09:51   who are in like one scene

02:09:52   and then we don't see them again,

02:09:53   where I feel like a smaller ensemble

02:09:56   might've been a little bit better,

02:09:57   but the people we do get to know,

02:09:59   like obviously the leads,

02:10:01   but also like Jordan and Laszlo.

02:10:03   I really love Laszlo.

02:10:05   We didn't talk about him very much,

02:10:06   but John Grease, the actor who plays Laszlo,

02:10:09   everything I see him in, and he's in everything.

02:10:12   To this day, I say Laszlo,

02:10:14   because he's this like nice guy

02:10:16   who happens to live in your closet.

02:10:18   (laughs)

02:10:18   That's what a crazy character that is.

02:10:20   And he wins the Frito-Lake sweepstakes.

02:10:23   He wins 30% of the prizes because--

02:10:25   - Because everything.

02:10:26   - Because he, or he, yeah, he should have won 30%,

02:10:30   but he won like 60% of the prizes.

02:10:32   Because, and that's a true story from the '70s too.

02:10:35   They had the, you know, enter as often as you like,

02:10:37   and so somebody did.

02:10:38   And they won all of the prizes.

02:10:41   - So a lot of the really good things in this movie

02:10:44   were not created by the writers.

02:10:46   (laughing)

02:10:47   - Well, I don't know, I suspect, like I said,

02:10:51   I haven't done, one day I would love to see

02:10:54   all the different versions of this script.

02:10:57   My guess is that there is a,

02:11:00   either somebody started with a really strong script

02:11:03   or somebody came in at the end and did a lot of great work

02:11:06   to make it the thing that I love,

02:11:08   but I can see the like, the archeological like strata

02:11:14   in the earth of this screenplay where they said,

02:11:19   "We need, let's do teen sex comedy,

02:11:21   "let's do some action,"

02:11:22   where they kind of like layered on this other stuff.

02:11:26   And those are not the parts that I love the movie for.

02:11:30   So somebody, some writer somewhere, one of these writers,

02:11:33   or was it the influence of the director late in the game,

02:11:38   did something.

02:11:39   But yeah, I think the weakness of this movie is,

02:11:42   At some point somebody tried to make it a few other movies that it wasn't.

02:11:48   So we've probably done enough today.

02:11:51   I think so.

02:11:52   I think we've killed Movies with Myke for now, but it'll be back.

02:11:57   It will be back.

02:11:58   We'll work on that.

02:11:59   We'll work on that.

02:12:00   We need to think of another movie as well.

02:12:01   I'm sure we'll have to do that.

02:12:03   Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Upgrade.

02:12:06   If you'd like to find the show notes for this week's episode, they are at relay.fm/upgrade/22.

02:12:12   I am joined as always by Mr Jason Snell, he is @jsnell on Twitter and is the man behind

02:12:19   6colors.com.

02:12:21   I am @imike on Twitter too and I host many shows at relay.fm which this show is a part

02:12:28   of.

02:12:29   Thanks again to our sponsors this week, our friends over at Stamps.com, Mail Route, Igloo

02:12:33   and Hover.

02:12:34   And thank you most of all for listening.

02:12:36   Until next time, buh bye.

02:12:39   It's a moral imperative.

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02:12:45   [ Music ]