20: You Cannot Win an Effort War


00:00:00   (beep)

00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:03   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 20.

00:00:12   Today's show is brought to you by lynda.com,

00:00:14   where you can instantly stream thousands of courses

00:00:16   created by industry experts.

00:00:18   For a 10-day free trial, visit lynda.com/upgrade.

00:00:22   MailRoute, a secure hosted email service

00:00:24   for protection from viruses and spam.

00:00:26   And Casper, because everyone deserves a great night's sleep.

00:00:29   My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by the one and only,

00:00:33   Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:34   - Hi Myke, how's it going?

00:00:35   - I am very well, sir, how are you?

00:00:37   - Pretty good.

00:00:38   Starting my week with Upgrade as always, it's nice.

00:00:41   Nice little routine we're working out here.

00:00:43   20 weeks in.

00:00:44   - I like it, I like that we kind of,

00:00:45   we can look forward to the week ahead,

00:00:47   we can look at the week that's just gone.

00:00:49   Like kind of the, it feels different to when you have

00:00:52   a show midweek because a midweek show,

00:00:54   it's like well all you've got is what happened

00:00:55   in the last two days, but like a Monday show,

00:00:58   It's kind of, you've got all of last week

00:01:00   and if there's anything exciting coming,

00:01:01   you can talk about all of that too.

00:01:02   There's just a different feeling about it, which I enjoy.

00:01:04   - Take that ATP.

00:01:06   - Yeah, and also, also Jason,

00:01:08   we record and release on the same day.

00:01:11   That's the Myke Hurley promise.

00:01:14   - That's right.

00:01:15   Well, as long as you don't have Casey List

00:01:17   doing your QA for your podcast.

00:01:19   - Oh yeah, no, I have that experience sometimes.

00:01:22   We definitely have that experience.

00:01:24   But they do sound very good because of it.

00:01:26   They do sound very good because of it.

00:01:27   - They do.

00:01:28   At least somebody has standards on that show.

00:01:31   It's Casey, not you, but that's okay.

00:01:33   - I have no standards.

00:01:34   That's the other Myke Hurley promise.

00:01:37   - We actually have, we should do this now.

00:01:39   We actually have, before follow-up,

00:01:41   we have something that listener Michael wrote in

00:01:43   and suggested we call Follow Out,

00:01:45   which is the follow-up from other podcasts

00:01:50   that is not our podcast.

00:01:51   - Which is a perfect name.

00:01:52   - So thank you, listener Michael.

00:01:54   Analog you did a music episode episode 23 now you just dropped number 24

00:01:59   I believe right before we recorded this or over the weekend

00:02:02   But I wanted to tell you I really loved the music episode. I thought it was really great

00:02:07   You can tell it's a good podcast when you are

00:02:09   desperately trying to interrupt the people who are playing on your car radio and tell them things and you can't because it's a podcast and

00:02:16   That is how I felt like I really enjoyed you guys

00:02:18   talking about music and how you listen to music and your guilty pleasures and things that you love and and

00:02:24   How you process lyrics or don't process lyrics. I thought that was all really really fascinating and even though

00:02:29   You got the details of crowded house wrong. You corrected it the next week after I sent you a

00:02:35   Detailed correction and that was nice, too

00:02:38   It was it's always amusing when I hear my own name in a podcast because I'm driving I'm like, oh no

00:02:43   They're talking about me now. It's very strange, but I really love that episode

00:02:47   I thought it was a lot of a lot of fun

00:02:48   And yes, Neil Finn is the band leader of crowded house and he's from New Zealand

00:02:51   so you might as well call it a New Zealand band even though a couple of the

00:02:55   original members were from Australia and then they have got some Americans in it

00:02:58   when they when they tour these days. I'm not surprised you felt like you wanted

00:03:02   to jump in because we got over I got about 95% of all of your information

00:03:06   wrong. Yeah well that's true. I may have called you like Snation Gel or something it just carried on like that.

00:03:11   It was a disaster. You did you got my name right so thank you for that.

00:03:15   That's the only part. That's all in it. I enjoyed that episode so much that I want to do a music

00:03:22   podcast. I loved talking about it and I loved the edit even though it was more complex like to put

00:03:28   little snippets of audio in like the songs. It's really really fun. So the problem with music

00:03:33   is the taste of it and everybody has differing music tastes so I don't even know what you'd

00:03:41   cover. It's just too much music to cover new releases and even then like how much

00:03:45   can you really learn? Like for me I don't want to talk about an album I've

00:03:49   listened to for two days. I need to listen to them for weeks to know if they

00:03:52   stick. So you talked about doing a an album draft on the incomparable classic

00:03:57   music draft where we would just pick favorite albums and talk about them kind

00:04:01   of round robin. I wonder if you could do something like that where you just

00:04:04   talked about a different release or band every week and found a couple of people

00:04:09   who love that band or album or whatever to talk about it.

00:04:14   - Yeah, I mean, that could definitely work.

00:04:16   That could definitely work.

00:04:17   - Also, you did, I liked the undercut music,

00:04:21   but you didn't, it was always just underneath

00:04:23   what you were talking about.

00:04:24   And once you're talking about the work,

00:04:28   it's actually fair use to,

00:04:30   you could have probably taken a 15-second break

00:04:33   in the middle and played a little bit more of it.

00:04:34   'Cause I found it great that Casey would mention something

00:04:37   and then it was playing in the background,

00:04:38   but it was not quite enough for me to get what it was.

00:04:41   But it was still neat to hear.

00:04:43   - Usually I take breaks.

00:04:44   I don't know why I did it that way.

00:04:45   It just felt like a different way to do it.

00:04:47   When I was editing it together, I was like,

00:04:49   "Oh, I like this style."

00:04:50   'Cause usually, like with clips like that,

00:04:52   I will take a break and just play a section of it

00:04:55   and then cut back in again.

00:04:56   - Like I'm connected.

00:04:57   - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:04:58   - But I thought, "No, let's have it as like a little bed."

00:05:01   - I do that too sometimes with the video game stuff

00:05:04   or other stuff where we're talking about music.

00:05:08   you have to make that decision if you want to stop the conversation for a minute to listen to the

00:05:11   music or whether you want to just kind of have it on in the background as a nod. Anyway, I liked,

00:05:16   I enjoyed that episode. That's shameless promotion for another Relay podcast, but I enjoyed it and I

00:05:22   appreciate that you, we, this doesn't have to be correction follow-out because you corrected all

00:05:27   of that stuff yourself. I did, I was very sad. I mentioned this on the Incomparable this week,

00:05:33   that, I think it's in the bonus track, that Casey referred to Peter Gabriel as "old people music"

00:05:40   because on one level, you know, Peter Gabriel was one of my all-time favorites, and that makes me

00:05:44   feel like an old person. On the other hand, and Lisa Schmeiser and I talked about this in the

00:05:49   incomparable bonus track this weekend, that there is that moment where, like, you go see Peter

00:05:55   Gabriel in concert, and she and I actually went to a concert, and you've got your mental image of

00:06:00   of Peter Gabriel in 1986 in your head and then you see him and he's like bald with a

00:06:04   goatee, a white goatee, and next thing you know he's playing, you know, versions of his

00:06:10   songs with a symphony and you realize, oh, he is old people now. But he wasn't. He wasn't

00:06:19   back then. You look around and see who your company is.

00:06:24   That was my memory with when we went with Lisa was that there were lots of gray-haired

00:06:29   people there, but we were probably on the younger side of the people who were there,

00:06:33   because there's people who've been following him since he was in Genesis in the early 70s.

00:06:38   But we're on the younger side, but when we went and saw him, we were like 30, 31 in there.

00:06:44   So not too up there, but now if we went back, yeah, it would be people like walkers in wheelchairs.

00:06:51   So old people music. It's sad, but that's... But he's reached the point in his career where

00:06:57   he seems to not even be trying to do anything new, really, and it's all just sort of like

00:07:01   reflections and when you get these symphonic recreations of your catalog, yeah, it's, you're

00:07:08   just cashing it in.

00:07:09   - You've run out.

00:07:10   You've run out of stuff.

00:07:11   - Oh well.

00:07:12   It happens.

00:07:13   It happens to everybody.

00:07:14   Eventually, I suppose, but anyway.

00:07:15   - I look forward to our symphonic podcasts one day, Jason.

00:07:18   - That's right.

00:07:19   It's just old episodes.

00:07:20   We don't even have to do it, Myke.

00:07:21   We'll just have our old episodes and then there'll be symphony music played in a music

00:07:24   bed underneath them.

00:07:26   That'll be classic, it'll be classic upgrade.

00:07:30   Classical upgrade.

00:07:31   Very nice, very nice.

00:07:32   And they'll be upgraded classically as well.

00:07:34   Oh man.

00:07:35   Uh, follow-up time, I think.

00:07:38   Yes.

00:07:39   Uh, smart speed.

00:07:41   Again, a little more, uh, a little more, boy, we started something when we mentioned that

00:07:45   you could look up how much time you've saved in Overcast.

00:07:48   Still happening.

00:07:49   Unless there's a bug, unless there's a bug and you can't see it.

00:07:52   Still getting it.

00:07:53   Still getting it.

00:07:54   Yeah, but listener Evan did a blog post on Medium.

00:07:58   I think called blog posts on Medium. I feel like they're because of something else.

00:08:03   Okay, he made a, he made some, put some words at a URL.

00:08:08   Can we talk about Medium one day? Because I don't understand Medium. And I feel like

00:08:13   you might.

00:08:14   I'm not sure Medium understands Medium, but sure, we can talk about Medium sometime. But

00:08:18   anyway, he did a, he wrote a thing about smart speed and overcast, and what he did that was

00:08:22   extremely clever, is captured the audio output from Overcast playing an episode of Hardcore

00:08:28   History and from iTunes on his Mac playing the same episode of Hardcore History and posted

00:08:34   that to SoundCloud. And so the Mac is on one side of the stereo environment and the iPhone

00:08:40   is on the other side. And what you get is, you can listen as Smart Speed saves you time.

00:08:46   And by the end of that episode of Hardcore History, I believe he saved 12 minutes because

00:08:50   that's a pretty loose podcast. And one of the things listener Evan points out in this

00:08:53   piece is that the tighter podcasts, you know, you don't really save a lot of time. And in

00:09:00   fact, he's got Smart Speed turned off for those podcasts because once something like

00:09:05   99% invisible, once something is really tight, you kind of almost want to say, "Okay, if

00:09:10   there's a pause in there, they're doing it for a reason." So you just turn off Smart

00:09:13   Speed. But there are these other podcasts that are super loose and you can turn on Smart

00:09:17   speed and save in the case of Hardcore History 12 minutes. And it is kind of a kick to listen

00:09:23   as the sound in your right ear just totally drifts away from the sound in your left ear.

00:09:29   I just thought it was an interesting... 'cause sometimes I'm listening and I see Overcast

00:09:33   is going or I look at their stats and I'm like, "I wonder how much it's saving me per

00:09:37   episode." And where this doesn't obviously... Your mileage may vary depending on the show

00:09:43   you're listening to, it was just interesting to see that no, it is like every time you

00:09:48   listen like, you know, potentially there is a significant change. Like you are knocking

00:09:53   a couple of minutes off or whatever and it's like, obviously as we have seen Jason, that

00:09:58   adds up.

00:09:59   I don't know Myke, it kind of gives me a complex, it makes me want to talk really fast and without

00:10:03   any breaks in between because if I do that then Smartspeed can't do anything and then

00:10:06   I win but then you know I can't, I'm only human, I'm gonna run out of breath and then

00:10:09   when that happens Smartspeed's gonna kick in and then oh no!

00:10:11   Next up on the follow-up, what would you like to do, Jason? Let's go for the follow-up.

00:10:14   People listening on 2X right now, their heads just blew up.

00:10:17   Oh, hi, telephone. Oh, listener Steve wrote in and said, "You guys seem to have something

00:10:24   out for the Apple podcast app. What gives?"

00:10:27   So I've been thinking about this, Jason. I used to have a problem with the Apple podcast

00:10:33   app.

00:10:34   When it was a reel-to-reel tape, it was really awful, yes.

00:10:36   The UI, I can see the problems people have with that,

00:10:41   but I found a kind of cuteness in that.

00:10:44   Where it was--

00:10:45   - It was cute, but it hurt the functionality.

00:10:46   That was my problem with it.

00:10:48   I didn't mind that it was cute.

00:10:49   I minded that it pushed other important things away

00:10:54   so that it could be cute.

00:10:56   - So the main problem that I had with the Apple Podcast app

00:11:00   was it wasn't sync or anything like that

00:11:02   that many people had.

00:11:03   It was lack of show notes support.

00:11:05   and it just displayed your show notes as a list of text.

00:11:08   That was all you got, and they weren't links,

00:11:09   they were just a list.

00:11:11   That's actually been improved now,

00:11:15   and I know that the guys and girls that make that app

00:11:18   have taken great pains to make it work properly.

00:11:21   So I actually don't have a problem with the app.

00:11:24   Previously I would have said to people, do not use it.

00:11:27   But now, I'm happy.

00:11:29   If somebody wants to get into podcasts,

00:11:30   it's on the phone, go for it.

00:11:32   I think the fact that it's on every phone is amazing

00:11:34   When I heard about that happening, I needed cartwheels.

00:11:37   That's fantastic for us to have an app,

00:11:40   I know they're frustrating, but an app that can't be deleted

00:11:42   it may be more likely that people will check this stuff out,

00:11:45   they go to the iTunes store, they browse around.

00:11:47   But just for me, I think if you enjoy podcasts,

00:11:51   or as soon as you've listened to one

00:11:53   and you've decided you want to use another,

00:11:55   I think that there are many more options out there

00:11:59   that you should look at that I think are superior

00:12:02   for somebody who wants to get into listening to podcasts

00:12:04   in a serious way.

00:12:05   - Yeah, I agree.

00:12:07   I think there are, it's fine.

00:12:11   It's fine.

00:12:12   It's way better than it used to be.

00:12:14   I like that it syncs.

00:12:16   I think the show notes thing is important.

00:12:20   In fact, related to this is listener Gordon wrote in

00:12:25   and said, whenever we talk about the show notes,

00:12:28   for example, the show notes for this episode

00:12:30   can be found at upgrade, or no, at, see, I blew it,

00:12:33   relay.fm/upgrade/20, right?

00:12:36   What we don't say is, or in the app you're listening to,

00:12:40   which we probably should mention,

00:12:43   'cause most podcast apps will show you the show notes

00:12:46   as you're listening.

00:12:47   So I think the podcast app is fine.

00:12:52   Like I said, I like Overcast because of smart speed

00:12:57   and because the speed acceleration that Marco is doing

00:13:01   is I believe better.

00:13:03   I think that because he hand tuned the way he processes

00:13:06   the audio in Overcast,

00:13:08   I don't hear acceleration artifacts that I hear

00:13:11   in every other podcast app.

00:13:13   And so if you do wanna listen at 1.2,

00:13:15   all the other podcasts app, I feel like there's like,

00:13:17   click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click

00:13:19   as you go, it just, and it drives me crazy.

00:13:20   So I've, until Overcast, I literally never listened

00:13:23   to a podcast in anything but 1X,

00:13:25   'cause I just couldn't take it.

00:13:26   And now I do.

00:13:28   And that's because it sounds acceptable to me

00:13:31   in a way it didn't before.

00:13:32   So I think podcast app is great.

00:13:33   It's free, it's on every phone.

00:13:34   It's good for podcasting.

00:13:35   People should start with it,

00:13:37   but there are features that something like Overcast

00:13:39   is gonna be able to give you.

00:13:40   It's the same old story as any other Apple product, right?

00:13:43   Apple is never gonna make a product that is super fiddly,

00:13:46   that it's gonna satisfy every single use case

00:13:49   of power users.

00:13:50   That's not what they're there for.

00:13:51   They're there for like the baseline to get you started.

00:13:54   And that's what the podcast app is.

00:13:56   But I don't think it's terrible.

00:13:57   I didn't like it originally, but I think it's okay now.

00:14:00   - Listen, Matteo asked if we think that our figures,

00:14:06   'cause we were talking about like how Overcast

00:14:09   has a much larger portion of download numbers

00:14:13   than anybody else, any other podcast app.

00:14:15   Matteo wondered if it was because we have

00:14:17   our little, in the directory, Marco very kindly

00:14:21   has a relay FM section, which is fantastic,

00:14:24   and we're very, very grateful that we have that there.

00:14:28   'Cause I do believe it helps people bring in new listeners.

00:14:31   I think that yes, we may be skewed because of that

00:14:34   in some instances, but I don't know if that's the,

00:14:38   would be the sole reason for that.

00:14:42   I don't know, it's impossible to tell, I think, really.

00:14:45   - Right, and I looked on, on Incomparable,

00:14:48   and like I said, to the listener, Mateo, on Twitter,

00:14:52   On incomparable, the overcast numbers are still pretty huge

00:14:57   and there is no incomparable section in overcast,

00:15:00   although incomparable itself is in one of the sections,

00:15:04   it's not in its own section, so it's less so.

00:15:09   But then again, it's less so dominated by overcast

00:15:12   than upgrade is, or than relay in general is.

00:15:14   It's, you know, podcasts app and iTunes

00:15:19   are still really strong in,

00:15:22   in fact, if you put them together,

00:15:23   they are the number one client for incomparable shows.

00:15:28   And then Overcast is number two.

00:15:31   Yeah.

00:15:35   I don't know, different audiences.

00:15:38   Anyway, it's worth thinking about.

00:15:42   Lisner Rajiv wrote in to say,

00:15:45   "Why does Apple require a wired connection for CarPlay?

00:15:49   I would rather it work through Bluetooth.

00:15:52   I don't know this for certain,

00:15:53   but I'm gonna take a crack at it,

00:15:54   which is CarPlay is basically video out.

00:15:58   The video that's being displayed on these systems

00:16:00   is being projected there by your iPhone.

00:16:04   And one, I think you can't do that over Bluetooth.

00:16:08   I think that sending a video,

00:16:10   a whole video thing over Bluetooth

00:16:12   is not something that you could do.

00:16:15   And somebody's gonna write in and say,

00:16:17   "Well, theoretically you could,

00:16:18   but it's not actually implemented by anybody and that's fine. Email markup.

00:16:22   How much of AirPlay is Bluetooth?

00:16:24   Um, nothing.

00:16:26   Oh really?

00:16:27   AirPlay? AirPlay's all Wi-Fi.

00:16:29   Okay, I didn't know that.

00:16:31   Yeah, it's all Wi-Fi. So, um, and the second thing is, if you did a wireless stream, your

00:16:40   phone would run out of battery.

00:16:41   Yeah, I was gonna say that. Like, yeah, I understand why it might be easier to just

00:16:45   walk into the car and it connects but plugging it in, you're charging it, you're powering

00:16:50   the phone.

00:16:52   Every time you went on another drive you'd get out of the car and you'd have no battery

00:16:54   left in your phone.

00:16:55   That's a frustrating experience.

00:16:58   So if you force people to plug it in then they kind of don't know what they're missing.

00:17:01   I think it's better.

00:17:03   So my guess is that I think you can't practically stream video to that thing and that's what

00:17:09   it's doing.

00:17:10   It's not just sending data, it is streaming that image you're seeing on the screen is

00:17:15   being streamed live from the device and that doing that wirelessly is impractical if not

00:17:20   impossible using Bluetooth, which is what's in the car. But there's just, yeah, the power

00:17:25   thing is the other thing, which is even if you did that, your phone would be dead by

00:17:28   the time you got where you were going, especially if you were also navigating. So you're using

00:17:32   the phone's GPS. So that's why. I mean, it's just not practical. And I agree with you.

00:17:38   You get used to just keeping your phone in your pocket and listening to podcasts when

00:17:41   you're driving around. And CarPlay, you can't do that. And that's totally true. I totally

00:17:46   get it, but it's just not practical right now to do it any other way.

00:17:51   Listener Jeff wrote in to say, "So should Apple build a double-din head unit?" Okay,

00:17:56   so we'll decode that, which is, that's the one I tested, the thing I tested for CarPlay

00:18:01   is what's called the double-din head unit. Head unit, it's a radio that you stick in

00:18:06   in a car, double din is it's like a,

00:18:09   if you do servers, you know about like a one U server

00:18:12   or a two U server in Iraq, it's describing the height.

00:18:16   Double din is essentially a two U server for a car stereo.

00:18:21   So like my car has a double din space in it

00:18:24   and I have a single din Sony head unit in it

00:18:28   and so I've got like a little drawer below it

00:18:32   that's just there to fill the space.

00:18:34   So that's what he means.

00:18:35   - So basically having two stacked on top of each other.

00:18:38   - Yeah, so which is what the one that I,

00:18:40   the CarPlay thing that I use is that size.

00:18:42   It's the screen to, for the screen to be big enough,

00:18:45   you have to have the two slots worth.

00:18:48   And I think most cars do.

00:18:50   It's the equivalent of, yeah, it's too high

00:18:51   instead of one high in the stack.

00:18:53   So if you had a car that only had a singled in space,

00:18:56   you couldn't put one of these CarPlay units in it

00:18:58   because they wouldn't fit.

00:18:59   And my answer to that is no,

00:19:02   I don't think Apple should build,

00:19:04   should get in this business

00:19:06   because I don't think that's the problem.

00:19:08   I went back and forth with a couple of people on Twitter.

00:19:10   There was a guy who seemed to want to throw

00:19:14   the head unit manufacturers under the bus

00:19:17   for bad CarPlay performance and said,

00:19:19   "Well, you know, it's their touchscreen

00:19:20   and their unit itself is running

00:19:24   some crappy version of Android."

00:19:25   And that's all true,

00:19:26   but most of the problems I found with CarPlay are not the,

00:19:30   I was giving a pass to the bad touchscreen and the laggy touchscreen scrolling because

00:19:36   I figured that's probably the head unit's fault.

00:19:38   But everything else, all the apps quitting, the head unit has nothing to do with the apps

00:19:42   quitting.

00:19:43   Bad things are happening on the iPhone, and that's Apple's problem.

00:19:46   So I think Apple needs to focus on getting the CarPlay software right.

00:19:49   And honestly, maybe Apple needs to do a better job of validating these devices that are going

00:19:54   to be playing their stuff.

00:19:56   And if there is a problem with these head units,

00:19:58   that they shouldn't, you know, they shouldn't approve them.

00:20:00   They should say, no, this is not a CarPlay device.

00:20:03   It's not good enough.

00:20:05   But right now I think the problem is

00:20:06   that their software is not good enough.

00:20:08   And it doesn't even get to the point where there's,

00:20:09   they're getting hurt by the hardware.

00:20:11   It would be a nice problem to have

00:20:13   if the software was solid, rock solid.

00:20:17   And the problem you had is buying the right, you know,

00:20:20   the right touch screen to put in your car

00:20:22   because you want one that's fast and responsive

00:20:24   'cause that's gonna be the thing that holds you back.

00:20:26   and they're just not there yet.

00:20:27   I got an email that I didn't,

00:20:31   actually I didn't put in the document,

00:20:32   but we got a really nice email about CarPlay

00:20:37   and somebody who went to the Detroit Auto Show,

00:20:39   this is listener Sam,

00:20:41   and got demos of Android Auto and CarPlay.

00:20:44   And the short version is that Android Auto

00:20:46   looks much more functional to him than CarPlay,

00:20:49   but the impression he got from the people in the business

00:20:54   is that there's not a lot of action right now

00:20:58   in Android Auto or CarPlay,

00:21:00   because neither of them is really good enough yet,

00:21:02   which is certainly how I walked away

00:21:04   from my time with CarPlay, was this is just not ready.

00:21:07   So anyway, Android Auto was interesting.

00:21:11   I'm not gonna buy an Android phone

00:21:13   and an Android Auto head unit and write that story,

00:21:16   but I am intrigued by it, having seen video of it.

00:21:19   I think Google is trying to do more,

00:21:22   and I understand Apple's,

00:21:24   I said this last week, reluctance to do more in the car because it's distracting.

00:21:30   But what they've got is sort of not enough yet.

00:21:32   But anyway, that email from listener Sam was really good and I do get that impression that

00:21:37   it's just not, none of this stuff is really fantastic.

00:21:41   Yeah, I do, just this feeling, I don't know where it is that like Google may have already

00:21:48   done more similar things like this before, so are coming out with more experience.

00:21:54   I don't know.

00:21:55   But that's how I kind of have felt about the fact

00:21:57   that Android Auto might be better because, you know,

00:21:59   they've done things like Google TV and when,

00:22:01   that like where those projects have not been

00:22:03   very successful, they kind of have done stuff like that.

00:22:06   And they're kind of used, more used to dealing with

00:22:09   devices they can't control.

00:22:10   But.

00:22:13   - Yeah, yeah.

00:22:14   I see that and yet in the end,

00:22:18   you know, Apple did set the spec and say,

00:22:20   look, basically give us a touchscreen and we will fill it.

00:22:23   So they've got a lot of control over this.

00:22:25   And yeah, and it is what it is.

00:22:31   - Yep.

00:22:32   - I realized that I didn't put any of our email

00:22:38   that we got in the document.

00:22:39   I'm so focused on #askupgrade.

00:22:41   I'm gonna have to get better at that.

00:22:43   Listener Nick wrote in to say,

00:22:45   "I like it when you guys disagree on the show.

00:22:49   A lot of good debate spawns from that.

00:22:50   Keep up the good work."

00:22:51   Thank you, Listener Nick.

00:22:52   - I disagree, Nick.

00:22:53   - Would you like to thank Nick?

00:22:55   - No, Nick. - Thank him!

00:22:56   - You're wrong, okay?

00:22:58   This is terrible.

00:22:59   Never write in again.

00:23:00   - Well, sorry, Myke.

00:23:02   I just have to say you're totally wrong

00:23:05   and then Nick should totally write in again.

00:23:07   - Well, so are you.

00:23:08   - And scene.

00:23:09   There's a nice email we got from a listener, Joe,

00:23:16   who wanted to point out that he had actually,

00:23:19   another data point about Overcast,

00:23:20   He had never heard of Marco when he downloaded Overcast.

00:23:22   He thought he had heard the name.

00:23:24   He didn't really know anything about it.

00:23:26   He got frustrated with Apple's app.

00:23:30   He actually downloaded Overcast,

00:23:32   deleted it after trying it for a day or two,

00:23:34   but got frustrated with Apple's podcast app,

00:23:35   gave it another shot and said, now it's his go-to app.

00:23:38   And he downloaded it because of the great reviews

00:23:41   and bought it 'cause it was a great app.

00:23:43   So in terms of Marco marketing,

00:23:45   maybe he heard about it or maybe those reviews he saw

00:23:47   were because of Marco's notoriety,

00:23:49   but in the end he bought it just because.

00:23:52   He liked the app, which I think is good.

00:23:55   We got a nice email from a listener, Tom,

00:24:00   who I've actually met at Comic-Con.

00:24:02   He is a comic writer and artist,

00:24:06   and he wanted to say that Marco Marketing

00:24:08   reminded him of the comics industry.

00:24:10   He said, his book, which is called "Love and Capes,"

00:24:16   which I mentioned actually on our webcomics episode

00:24:18   the incomparable. He said it did okay, DC Comics would have cancelled it, but Tom isn't

00:24:23   paying for Office Space and Burbank. So what he needs to do to be a success is much less

00:24:28   than what somebody like DC Comics needs to do to be a success, which I really liked.

00:24:35   And then he also made a Princess Bride reference. Did you get this? Have you seen the Princess

00:24:38   Bride, Myke?

00:24:39   I'm not really sure what to say right now.

00:24:45   Well you have to tell the truth. We're in a zone of truth here.

00:24:48   - I haven't seen it.

00:24:49   - You've never seen "The Princess Bride."

00:24:50   Oh my God. - I've never seen

00:24:51   "The Princess Bride."

00:24:52   - Well, you should go see it

00:24:53   because it's a really funny movie.

00:24:53   - Myke hasn't seen it.

00:24:55   - So Myke, yeah.

00:24:57   Yeah, so you didn't understand

00:24:58   the Holocaust cloak reference at all then.

00:25:00   - Did not.

00:25:01   I Googled it 'cause I thought he was making a really horrible,

00:25:04   I thought he was saying something horrible to us.

00:25:06   - No, he was not.

00:25:07   What he says is, when I hear people say,

00:25:11   "Oh, but it's fine for Marco, but I couldn't do that."

00:25:14   What he says is,

00:25:15   I think people are often ignoring their own assets, like the Holocaust cloak.

00:25:20   There's a funny moment in The Princess Bride where they list the man in black says, "What

00:25:25   are our assets?"

00:25:26   And they list the assets.

00:25:28   And then he notices that there's a cloak.

00:25:30   And he said, "You didn't mention the Holocaust cloak!"

00:25:32   And that is the key to unlock the entire plan that's going to solve it.

00:25:35   It's a funny little moment.

00:25:37   And that's what Tom is saying.

00:25:38   I can do an entire book myself.

00:25:40   I don't have to hire anyone else.

00:25:41   I live in Ohio, so I can drive to most of my conventions.

00:25:44   in LA has to fly to almost all of theirs, they have to ship their own books. Marco has

00:25:48   a podcast and a lot of notoriety, but he also lives in New York and has a kid. Nothing's

00:25:52   even. You can either complain about what you don't have, or you can make the most out of

00:25:56   what you do. I thought that was really great. So thank you to Tom for that. And I think

00:26:04   that takes us to one last bit of follow-up, which is listener Robert, who, based on episode

00:26:11   2018, he said, when we were talking about scripting things, he said, "Scripting is like

00:26:15   taking back roads when the highway is slow. It might take longer, but you're still glad

00:26:19   to be moving." I thought that was, that sounds about right. Sometimes it's just like, at

00:26:24   least I'm working on the problem now instead of just getting frustrated by it. It might

00:26:27   save me time, it might not, but at least I'm moving.

00:26:31   We should put that on like one of those motivational posters of a cat.

00:26:35   I think so. A cat sitting at a keyboard. It's scripting. It might take longer, but at least

00:26:44   you're glad to be moving.

00:26:46   I had one last piece of follow-out. I just wanted to very briefly mention, if you haven't

00:26:52   seen it already, we have a new show on Relay FM called Rocket. It's a sort of a tech, gaming,

00:26:58   pop culture focused show. It's hosted by Brianna Wu, Christina Warren, and Simone de Rochefort.

00:27:04   fantastic show just episode to go out today I am helping these lovely women

00:27:10   out with the editing at the moment so I get the pleasure of hearing the shows

00:27:14   and episode two is fantastic including a long discussion about Jem and the

00:27:20   Holograms which was a cartoon show and about the social... Also haven't seen that

00:27:27   Myke? Have you not seen Jem and the Holograms? I think I may have done when I was a kid actually

00:27:30   No, I do know Jim O'Holligrams. And there's a good discussion about its social and cultural

00:27:37   importance. It's very interesting. What I love about Rocket is the tangents that they

00:27:44   go down are nothing like the tangents on any other show I listen to. Like, they talk about

00:27:50   like, on episode one they had like a five minute tangent about the color of a handbag.

00:27:55   It's like, I don't listen to any other tech shows that talk about this. And that's why

00:27:59   I love Rocket and that's why you should listen to it because the more I listen to the show,

00:28:02   the more things that I'm finding myself learning about and it's very interesting because it's

00:28:09   similar topics but not the same discussion. So you should be checking it out.

00:28:13   So thanks to our friends at Relay FM for sponsoring our show with You Should Listen to Rocket.

00:28:18   They're nice guys, those Relay FM guys. Do we have an actual friend, Myke?

00:28:23   We do indeed. Our friends over at lynda.com back to support this week's episode of Upgrade.

00:28:28   Lynda.com is an easy and affordable way to help you learn something cool. With Lynda.com

00:28:33   you get access to a growing library of thousands of high quality fantastically produced videos.

00:28:40   These can be on software, on hardware, maybe you want to learn a little bit about Adobe

00:28:44   Photoshop, maybe you want to learn a bit about photography. Lynda, if you want it, Lynda's

00:28:49   got it because they have these fantastic courses and as I mentioned they're adding every single

00:28:55   They have over 3,000 currently and they're adding more all of the time.

00:28:59   Their courses are taught by people that know exactly what they're talking about.

00:29:02   They can help you look at things like, you know, I mentioned learning like software and

00:29:06   hardware but maybe you want to set some new financial goals, maybe you want to get better

00:29:09   at productivity, maybe you want to improve on your job skills this year.

00:29:13   Lynda.com has something for you.

00:29:15   You get access to view their tutorials of course on your laptop or your desktop PC or

00:29:19   Mac of course and you can view them on iOS, on Android because they have apps for those

00:29:24   platforms too.

00:29:25   Linda.com has highlighted some courses that I think you might enjoy as listeners of upgrade.

00:29:30   Like maybe you want to learn a bit about Swift.

00:29:33   You may be developing an iOS app or you've been working on a Mac app or an iOS app for

00:29:37   some time and you want to learn about how to port that over to Swift.

00:29:40   They've got courses there.

00:29:41   Maybe you want to get started in development and they have iOS app development training

00:29:44   right there so you can learn from start to finish how to build a great iOS app.

00:29:48   But let's say you've built the app or you've ported your app over to Swift and you want

00:29:51   to learn a little bit about how to market it.

00:29:54   They have great courses on things like marketing online as well.

00:29:56   They can help you with marketing plans but also on how to use tools to get the word out

00:30:00   there.

00:30:01   Like maybe you want to learn like how do I do Facebook ads?

00:30:04   How does that make any sense?

00:30:05   What about Twitter ads?

00:30:06   How do they make any sense?

00:30:07   They have courses on that stuff.

00:30:08   They have courses on everything.

00:30:10   Do something awesome for yourself and go and sign up right now for a free 10 day trial

00:30:14   at thelinda.com by visiting lynda.com/upgrade.

00:30:19   ahead I challenge you to learn something new and something awesome maybe

00:30:24   something blue thank you so much Linda calm for supporting this show and all

00:30:27   every layer fan did you just challenge me to a duel yes okay I owe you English

00:30:34   people do that sometimes I think yeah I can't help it dueling over I problem it

00:30:39   Linda at dawn I think is the right where topics now we're in the topics mm-hmm

00:30:48   Should we talk about styluses and pens? Myke, pens!

00:30:53   Yes, pens. Pens are a topic near and dear to my heart, which I'm sure we will mention,

00:30:58   or Jason will mock me for slightly, but we'll see how we go with that.

00:31:04   You wrote a great post. Something I've noticed about you recently.

00:31:08   Oh, geez.

00:31:10   You are writing posts after Clockwise about the things that you talk about on Clockwise.

00:31:16   I think it's really interesting. I don't know what you're saying, Myke.

00:31:21   What are you talking about? You're talking to interesting people and they spark off a

00:31:25   thought in you and you write really great posts. You should be connecting

00:31:28   these together, Jason. Embrace it. You know what John Syracuse always says,

00:31:34   is that podcasts are sort of like the first draft of something you're

00:31:38   writing, and he laments the fact that he then never writes the thing almost ever

00:31:42   that he's thought of, but I agree with that.

00:31:45   Sometimes we talk about things that I've already written

00:31:47   on this show, other times we're talking about things

00:31:49   that I'm working on or thinking about,

00:31:50   and it helps clarify my thought process,

00:31:52   and that's true on Clockwise as well.

00:31:54   Sometimes I'll be working on something

00:31:55   and I'll bring a topic in, and other times

00:31:57   it'll emerge from the conversation,

00:32:00   and with the case of the styluses,

00:32:02   it was a little bit of the latter, but yeah.

00:32:04   So that definitely happens that there's a creative process

00:32:10   involving talking about it and then writing about it or writing about it and then talking

00:32:14   about it. It definitely goes together.

00:32:16   I just think it's an interesting thing that I see. But I like it though because I listen

00:32:22   to the show and then read your site and then I can see the two things going hand in hand.

00:32:28   That's right. Well, my output is best observed as a whole. Listen to all the podcasts.

00:32:34   Listen and read everything I do.

00:32:35   everything I write and then it'll all make sense. It's a fabulous tapestry.

00:32:40   So the idea about this is that there are rumors abound and apparently they're

00:32:45   from reliable supply chain sources that there is going to be an iPad stylus of

00:32:52   some description. We don't really know much about it, like we don't know whether

00:32:58   it's gonna be, oh I don't know, attached to a specific type of iPad which is

00:33:05   larger or whatever it's going to work with all iPads in some way or they're going to

00:33:08   redo all of the iPad line to include styluses.

00:33:11   We don't know that kind of detail yet I don't think or at least we don't know it reliably.

00:33:15   But the idea is that there is going to be an iPad which has a stylus which can be used

00:33:20   upon it.

00:33:21   And of course there are significant changes that would need to happen to the iPad to make

00:33:24   it as reliable as say a Surface 3 with its stylus because there's a lot about pixel precision

00:33:31   or a different type of touchscreen, which would need to be thought about.

00:33:35   But so basically if we just presume, like we have with the MacBook Air stuff, we just

00:33:40   presume that all things are simple and it's all doable.

00:33:44   Jason, do you think that Apple would likely do this and why would they do it?

00:33:51   Likely is a strong word.

00:33:54   As I wrote in my post, I'm not a big fan of the stylus just because I'm not a big fan

00:33:59   of pens in general, sorry, Myke, I don't really like writing.

00:34:07   My signature has degraded over time, my handwriting ability has degraded over time, I type really

00:34:12   fast, I really prefer that.

00:34:14   If I had to choose between writing on a piece of paper and typing on an iPad or even maybe

00:34:20   typing on an iPhone, I would probably choose the device over the paper.

00:34:23   But that's because I have terrible handwriting and I don't like it.

00:34:27   so I'm not even motivated to make it good because I hate it.

00:34:30   For Apple, so I'm coming at this,

00:34:32   I mean, this is why I wrote,

00:34:33   my piece was called "Typed Thoughts About Styluses."

00:34:37   It's like I'm not even writing, just I type things.

00:34:41   I think Apple might do it, two reasons.

00:34:44   One is the classic Apple reason,

00:34:46   which is other people are out there

00:34:48   making money off of this.

00:34:49   Maybe we could do it.

00:34:50   And because we control the platform

00:34:51   and the hardware and the software,

00:34:54   what we could do, we have access to the system

00:34:56   at a level that no one else's pen has.

00:34:59   So there is that, which is they might say,

00:35:02   you know, all these pens are,

00:35:04   it turns out people want them.

00:35:05   Some people want them

00:35:06   'cause there are all these styluses out there now,

00:35:07   but they're really not that good

00:35:09   because they're not integrated at a lower level.

00:35:12   And why is that Apple?

00:35:13   It's because Apple hasn't bothered to do that.

00:35:15   But still you could use that as an argument and say,

00:35:17   but now there's the Apple pen and, you know, Apple stylus,

00:35:21   and it is magical 'cause it's got all this hardware

00:35:23   and software and la, la, la.

00:35:25   That makes sense to me.

00:35:26   Apple has done that in the past.

00:35:27   I always ascribe that to Steve Jobs.

00:35:30   That always felt like one of Steve Jobs' strategies

00:35:32   was find where people are making money off of your products

00:35:35   and trump them if you can,

00:35:37   because you keep that money for yourself.

00:35:39   And he really did feel that way.

00:35:41   I think he was actually offended

00:35:42   that other people made money off of his great works

00:35:46   and felt that they were all just kind of parasites.

00:35:49   I mean, I know he felt that way about Macworld,

00:35:52   so I assume he felt that way about this Bose sound dock

00:35:55   when they did the Apple or the iPod Hi-Fi

00:35:58   and et cetera, et cetera.

00:35:59   So I think that's one reason.

00:36:01   I think the other reason is that they legitimately think

00:36:03   that there are some markets out there

00:36:05   that could really use a pen that they've heard from,

00:36:07   I don't know where, from hospitals, from the enterprise,

00:36:10   from IBM talking to their enterprise customers,

00:36:12   from artists, right?

00:36:14   Whether it's directly or whether they've looked

00:36:16   at the competition and seen that like Surface

00:36:18   has a much better story when it comes to this stuff.

00:36:21   I think it's more likely that it's stuff like that

00:36:24   then that it's, oh, the Galaxy Note has a pen

00:36:29   and we're envious of that.

00:36:30   Although it is possible that their customers

00:36:32   for the iPhone 6 Plus in Asia have said,

00:36:35   we would really like it if we had a stylus.

00:36:38   I suppose that's possible.

00:36:39   I think that wouldn't, that sounds weird to me,

00:36:42   but that's a market that's very different

00:36:44   and the usage is very different there.

00:36:46   So, you know, Serenity Caldwell, who I used to work with,

00:36:48   she's now at iMore, she likes to draw, she's an artist.

00:36:52   She tested every stylus that ever was released

00:36:56   and continues to use them.

00:36:58   She wrote a nice piece on iMore about this too.

00:37:00   And for somebody like Serenity,

00:37:02   the potential there is really great

00:37:03   because right now all the pen stuff is sort of like,

00:37:06   the pen makers have to write their own software package

00:37:10   and get apps to support it.

00:37:13   It's all kind of backward

00:37:14   where it's a pressure sensitive pen

00:37:17   because the tablet screen itself is not pressure sensitive.

00:37:21   so they have to make the pens pressure sensitive

00:37:23   in Bluetooth and then relay that.

00:37:26   The level of detail in the digitizer is made for fingertips

00:37:31   and not really tiny pen sizes.

00:37:35   And so that's a place where even if you've got

00:37:38   a really nice pen, there's a limit to what you can do

00:37:40   because of the digitizer.

00:37:42   So there's, you know, the fact is, the iPad especially

00:37:45   has been poor at pen support since the beginning.

00:37:50   and Apple has made no efforts to make it better.

00:37:52   So I'm not quite sure what is the motivator here,

00:37:57   but it may be if this report is true

00:37:59   that something has tripped somebody at Apple,

00:38:02   whether it's the existence of a bigger iPad,

00:38:04   or it's looking at competitors,

00:38:06   or it's hearing from customers and set,

00:38:07   and made them say, "Oh, okay, well, we can do that."

00:38:11   And when we do that, it'll be better than all the rest

00:38:14   because it'll be integrated with what we're doing

00:38:17   because we control the hardware and the software.

00:38:19   It's very Apple.

00:38:20   - So the way that I look at it,

00:38:22   and you kind of spoke about this a bit,

00:38:24   but it seems like quite a simple thing to me,

00:38:27   with if you are looking at creating an iPad

00:38:29   or advancing the iPad and you want to have people

00:38:32   work on it, you want to have people use them

00:38:34   in professional environments,

00:38:36   everything that you can tell them that it has

00:38:39   is another good thing that it does.

00:38:41   So even if you think that somebody won't use,

00:38:44   like a doctor won't actually use Onita stylus,

00:38:47   if you have one and it's good and you tell them

00:38:49   that it's there, they're more likely to buy it

00:38:51   than they're gonna buy the competition.

00:38:53   Every feature that people think that they need,

00:38:57   whether they need it or not, if they think they need it,

00:38:59   and then Microsoft's doing it,

00:39:01   that's a potential sale that you lose to Microsoft.

00:39:04   And if that sale is that you've lost that

00:39:06   to the CTO of a large company,

00:39:09   well then you're out of luck, boy.

00:39:11   You know, that's kind of it, you're done then.

00:39:12   You've missed that.

00:39:13   And if Apple really wanna make the iPad

00:39:16   the future of computing, which I'm sure that they do,

00:39:19   I'm sure that's what they want,

00:39:20   'cause they're the leader in this space.

00:39:23   If they can continue that,

00:39:24   they are now Microsoft of the 90s.

00:39:26   And I'm sure that there's an element of wanting

00:39:29   to be the complete dominant force

00:39:32   in the future of computing.

00:39:34   Why would they not wanna do that?

00:39:35   That's kind of why they exist to a point.

00:39:39   Is that wrong to say?

00:39:39   Like they want, like they're a big company,

00:39:41   they want to be the best, right?

00:39:44   - Yeah, I think that's true.

00:39:46   The question is, when is it worth it?

00:39:49   So I'm sure that if anybody at Apple has talked to,

00:39:52   and I'm sure they have, has talked to artists,

00:39:55   has gone to Comic-Con and talked to people

00:39:56   who do art on iPads, they've heard these stories, right?

00:40:01   They've heard, if they read the Penny Arcade piece

00:40:05   that I linked to in my piece about how the guy

00:40:08   from Penny Arcade uses Surface,

00:40:11   and he was really frustrated with the Surface 3

00:40:13   because the Surface Pro 2 had a better digitizer

00:40:16   than the 3 and the 3 had some software problems.

00:40:19   But in the end, he loved that

00:40:20   because he could use Photoshop,

00:40:22   which is what he worked in anyway.

00:40:23   And he had this Wacom quality digitizer with pen support.

00:40:28   And so for him, the Surface Pro

00:40:30   was the perfect product to draw on.

00:40:33   And if I'm Apple, you know, and I'm in charge of the iPad,

00:40:37   or I'm in charge of reaching a certain market like that,

00:40:42   then yeah, that really bugs me,

00:40:44   the fact that all these artists are saying,

00:40:46   "Nope, can't use the iPad, it's not good enough."

00:40:49   We try, we use it because we think it's cool,

00:40:51   but in the end it's just so frustrating

00:40:53   and there are better options.

00:40:55   They probably know all of that

00:40:57   and they've known that for years.

00:40:59   The question is, again,

00:41:01   when is it worth it to do something about it?

00:41:03   And maybe the answer is the existence

00:41:04   of something like the iPad Pro,

00:41:06   which they wanna sell and they think that artists

00:41:08   are a potential big target market for that product.

00:41:12   And it's like the iPhone 6 Plus,

00:41:14   it doesn't need to be the definitive iPad,

00:41:17   it's a side iPad for a specific kind of smaller user base.

00:41:22   And maybe that's one of the real use cases is,

00:41:24   oh, okay, here's one way to differentiate the iPad Pro,

00:41:27   is or plus or whatever it is, is the pen stuff,

00:41:31   and a really great digitizer.

00:41:32   And maybe that's the thing that finally gets them to move

00:41:34   and say, okay, fine, we'll support artists now,

00:41:37   even though they knew it all along.

00:41:38   'Cause again, do you ship a better digitizer

00:41:42   in every single iPad when one in 50 people

00:41:47   would take advantage of it?

00:41:48   This is like the battery discussion, right?

00:41:50   When is it enough to build that into every single model

00:41:54   because some small group wants it?

00:41:57   - So I think the answer of that is,

00:42:00   like for me is like it's twofold.

00:42:03   Is it easy to do?

00:42:05   I don't know, maybe.

00:42:06   Maybe with the current technology,

00:42:07   like it's not that much more difficult. And the other point is will you get some

00:42:12   other functionality because of it that you can use now or down the line? Like

00:42:17   will increasing the digitizer in the iPad allow you to do something else? And

00:42:21   if the answer is yes then it might be an easier thing to say

00:42:24   here's your stylus. Like I've been thinking recently about Siri quite a bit

00:42:29   and trying to think about like when Siri started we had it on the phone and now

00:42:35   as we're moving down this this road we're seeing it pop up in places so Siri

00:42:40   is gonna be one of the ways probably the main way that you interact with the

00:42:44   Apple Watch right if you want to give it any sort of input Siri is gonna be the

00:42:48   way that you do that so like I was thinking to myself oh well well did they

00:42:53   create Siri knowing that we would use it in this way in the future and they

00:42:57   needed it to get better or they needed us to get used to it I mean who knows

00:43:00   maybe so it makes me think like with something like this is there another

00:43:04   reason that you may give all that you need to give for stylus support because

00:43:11   later it enables you to do something else.

00:43:13   Hmm. I don't know.

00:43:16   There's one thing I wanted to bring up about this because obviously the joke, if you don't know,

00:43:20   the joke why this is funny on this show is because I am the host of a show on

00:43:23   Relay FM called The Pen Addict. I've been doing this show for years it's...

00:43:27   You haven't kicked all those years and you haven't kicked your addiction, Myke.

00:43:30   Never. So we've been doing the show for like three years. Basically every network

00:43:36   I've been a part of the pen addicts has just come along for the journey. And the

00:43:42   thing is just because I love, because I love pens, I love pens, I love, I love

00:43:47   using pens, I love using pens on paper and I like to take notes. I take

00:43:51   notes on pen and paper when we're recording the shows, that kind of thing.

00:43:55   But just because I, yes thank you, he's clicking, clicking, just because I like

00:44:00   pens doesn't mean that I would like a stylus because everything I like about

00:44:05   pens has nothing to do with writing, with producing written something. So it's

00:44:16   not that at the end of the day I have something that's got my handwriting on

00:44:19   it. It's the feeling of the pen, it's the design of the pen, it's the ink that goes

00:44:23   in the pen, it's the way the pen feels in the paper, the weight of the pen.

00:44:29   there are just all of these other things all of the design things all of the

00:44:32   choices that you make all of the choices that you make to find a pen that

00:44:35   represents you in a certain way and all of that is 100% not there with a stylus

00:44:39   because ultimately what you're doing is writing with a specific point on glass

00:44:45   like there's nothing all of the nice stuff is not there for me right but

00:44:51   there's not a little bit like saying I like I like to read paper books because

00:44:56   oh, the feel of the paper and the smell of the paper. 100% 100% what it is.

00:45:01   It's experiential and and in the end digital technology may take all needs

00:45:05   for holding an implement and creating content to be digital but the point is

00:45:11   that you're not a fan of pen input you're a fan of the experience of

00:45:16   writing with a pen which is not the same. Yeah, exactly. It's like you're a fan of

00:45:21   of typewriters. You would be, you know, I like a typewriter. Yeah, I can type on a

00:45:26   computer, but I'm a fan of a typewriter because I like to have it be all

00:45:29   clackety-clacky and all, you know, and that would be about the

00:45:32   experience, not about the output, which I get it. I get it.

00:45:39   Yeah, just because you like typewriters doesn't mean you're gonna like Tom Hanks's

00:45:43   typewriter app.

00:45:44   Right, oh yeah, he'd probably hate it, actually.

00:45:46   Yeah, it's probably the worst possible thing you can imagine.

00:45:49   - Right, well, it'll be, I had a back and forth with a guy

00:45:53   who is a little bit feisty on Twitter about pen stuff.

00:45:56   And he said he is a, in higher ed and said that

00:46:01   basically iPads are totally not acceptable for note-taking

00:46:08   and that the surface is.

00:46:10   And he was talking about using pen input to do like

00:46:13   essentially your lecture notes.

00:46:16   And I just don't believe that's,

00:46:18   I don't, maybe I am being an old fogey here,

00:46:22   but I don't, and I also hate pens and I hate paper.

00:46:26   I don't think that using a tablet computer

00:46:32   to write down notes as if it was a piece of paper

00:46:35   is a good use of anybody's time.

00:46:39   - I disagree with you.

00:46:40   - I can get it, oh, all right, disagreement, yeah.

00:46:45   I see that and I think it seems really impractical.

00:46:48   Like unless you are adding something to it,

00:46:51   I can see the value of like,

00:46:52   if it's recording the lecture while you're writing

00:46:54   and you can point at the thing you wrote

00:46:56   and play back the sound that was in the room

00:46:59   when you wrote it so you can confirm your notes

00:47:01   and all of that.

00:47:02   But I just, at some point I feel like

00:47:03   you're just replicating paper on this device

00:47:06   and that's not good enough.

00:47:07   You should, there should be better experiences than that.

00:47:10   You should not, note taking on a tablet

00:47:14   should not be digital paper with digital ink.

00:47:17   It should be something else because if it's just

00:47:20   digital paper and digital ink,

00:47:22   just get a notepad and a pen, please, right?

00:47:25   You need to do something more than that.

00:47:26   And I worry that some of the stylist stuff,

00:47:28   I mean, that's always in the early days

00:47:30   of the tablet computers,

00:47:31   that's exactly what Microsoft always talked about

00:47:33   was that sort of approach.

00:47:34   And it's dumb.

00:47:36   You need to add to the experience

00:47:38   and I'm not a long handwriting person.

00:47:42   So I would be happy to have an iPad in my lap

00:47:45   in the classroom or a keyboard and taking notes that way.

00:47:48   But I can understand that some other people

00:47:49   might prefer to do it a different way.

00:47:51   - So with that, handwriting allows for

00:47:55   a more freeform style of note-taking.

00:47:58   And there are certain people, myself included,

00:48:00   who think better in this way.

00:48:02   Rather than just taking notes in a bullet point

00:48:04   list of what's happening, you can draw things

00:48:07   and you can draw bubbles and you can highlight

00:48:09   and you can scribble around this part

00:48:10   draw a little key animation. So you've got little keys so you remember what part's here.

00:48:14   So there are definite benefits that if you think that way, that handwriting notes can

00:48:20   make sense. I understand to a point where you're saying there has to be something more,

00:48:24   but sometimes just the pure idea of I can take notes in the way that I want and I won't

00:48:30   ever lose them because they're backed up to the cloud is enough. Because at the moment

00:48:34   you've got a paper notebook which is destructible by a zillion different ways.

00:48:40   And even though of course a tablet is destructible, if it's connected to the internet, your notes

00:48:44   are safe forever.

00:48:45   They are then, like you can use ICR scanning on them for searching, you can use something

00:48:49   like Evernote.

00:48:50   Nope.

00:48:51   You've got to have really good handwriting for that.

00:48:53   Yeah, of course.

00:48:55   I don't know, it depends how, I don't know how good the OCR software needs to be to get

00:49:00   different people.

00:49:01   But then there are more things that you could do, like for example, then if they're digital,

00:49:05   you can move them around and reorganize them and stuff like that.

00:49:07   So there are basics for why it's good, but I agree with you that it can't—I don't think

00:49:13   it's compelling enough for most people to just say, "That's that," you know?

00:49:19   "Oh, that's all you're gonna—that's all it's gonna be."

00:49:21   It's just you can take paper notes but on a glass screen instead.

00:49:25   No, I can see that.

00:49:27   I mean, when I take notes, I don't take it in a—on paper.

00:49:31   When I was in college, I didn't take it in a really super linear way or, like, with an

00:49:36   outliner.

00:49:37   I would write down key phrases and circle them and draw arrows and sorts of things like that.

00:49:41   But I would never recommend anybody do my style of note-taking in college because it was

00:49:48   indecipherable. Even if you could read my terrible handwriting, it wouldn't make any sense because

00:49:54   I was just not, I think, I was not a big picture notetaker, not a detailed notetaker most of the

00:50:01   time. But I can see that. It's interesting. I just, yeah, I have some

00:50:06   skepticism that when somebody says, "Oh, well, in higher ed, what students

00:50:11   really want is the ability to sit there with a tablet and a pen and take

00:50:17   notes." I'm gonna profess some skepticism to that. I'm not sure that that

00:50:21   just, it feels a little one-to-one from the old tech to the new tech to me. And

00:50:25   maybe the answer is no, no, it's not. It's recognizing your handwriting as

00:50:29   you write it and that's being indexed as searchable text

00:50:32   and all these other fantastic things are happening.

00:50:36   Maybe, maybe, and maybe it's just that I look at that

00:50:39   and think I just bring a 11 inch error and type instead,

00:50:43   but we'll see.

00:50:45   It'll be interesting to see what the story is

00:50:47   if Apple really does go down the stylus route.

00:50:50   Thanks for disagreeing with me.

00:50:52   - Anytime.

00:50:53   - Mr. Pen Addict.

00:50:54   - Quite literally at any time.

00:50:55   - Yeah, I hope you, you got ink in your veins.

00:50:58   That's dangerous, you should have somebody look at that.

00:51:01   You know you're an addict when you do a Kickstarter

00:51:05   to talk about pens.

00:51:07   - Yes, that's--

00:51:09   - Which you did.

00:51:10   Put that link in the show notes.

00:51:11   - I will.

00:51:12   - 'Cause congratulations, Myke, you are headed to Atlanta.

00:51:16   - It seems like it.

00:51:18   - Yes.

00:51:20   - Basically, my co-host and I, Brad,

00:51:23   we have never met in person,

00:51:24   and there is a pen show in Atlanta, which is a trade show,

00:51:27   So we're looking to get together and record a show in person

00:51:29   as I'm going to be at the Atlanta Pen Show.

00:51:31   - I was thinking it would be like,

00:51:33   was more like a gladiatorial duel kind of show

00:51:36   where like two pens enter, one pen leaves.

00:51:38   There's just like pools of ink everywhere.

00:51:41   But it's actually just a trade show.

00:51:42   - So that's a trade show.

00:51:43   - All right.

00:51:44   That's less exciting, but fine.

00:51:46   Should we talk about some more friends?

00:51:50   - Please, Jason, we have a new friend today.

00:51:52   - A new friend?

00:51:53   - A new friend.

00:51:54   - All right, let me tell you about our new friend.

00:51:56   It's Casper.

00:51:56   I've talked about them before on other podcasts,

00:51:58   but it's nice to talk about Casper here.

00:52:01   Casper, you may have heard of them.

00:52:02   Casper's an online retailer of premium mattresses

00:52:05   for a fraction of the price

00:52:06   of where you could get a premium mattress elsewhere.

00:52:10   These are some tech people who figured

00:52:13   that they could do a better job making a mattress

00:52:16   and selling it to you on the internet,

00:52:19   shrink wrapping it and sending it to you in a box,

00:52:22   and then you open it up and it just kind of expands,

00:52:24   open it in the room that you're gonna use it

00:52:26   because it expands to fill the space.

00:52:28   I tried this, the box came to my house,

00:52:30   we brought it into the bedroom, opened it up.

00:52:32   And for the last couple of months,

00:52:34   I've been sleeping on a Casper mattress.

00:52:36   It's got two different technologies.

00:52:38   It's got latex foam and memory foam.

00:52:40   Casper likes to say, "It's just the right sink

00:52:42   and just the right bounce."

00:52:43   I found sitting on the Casper mattress,

00:52:46   I had this moment where I realized

00:52:47   that the mattress we had before was kind of bouncy.

00:52:49   It was like a trampoline kind of thing

00:52:51   where like the cat would be sitting on the bed

00:52:53   and you'd sit down and the cat would jump off

00:52:55   because it would be, and now it's not like that.

00:52:57   It's a really comfortable mattress.

00:53:00   I was worried that the foam stuff was gonna be weird.

00:53:02   It's not, it's super comfortable.

00:53:04   Really, yeah, really, they say for better nights

00:53:07   and brighter days, I gotta say,

00:53:09   it is a really comfortable mattress.

00:53:11   What's great about it too, if you're weirded out

00:53:14   by the idea of trying a mattress,

00:53:15   is they have a risk-free trial.

00:53:17   So you don't have this fear that if you don't like it,

00:53:19   you're stuck with it for who knows how long, regardless,

00:53:22   which is usually what it's like with regular mattresses.

00:53:24   You can sleep on a Casper for 100 days,

00:53:27   free delivery and painless returns.

00:53:29   So if you don't like it, you can send it back.

00:53:31   The mattresses are made in America

00:53:33   and the prices compared to industry averages are outstanding.

00:53:37   It's 500 for a twin up to 950 for a king.

00:53:41   So, you know, I think it's worth checking it out.

00:53:44   You can buy it on the internet.

00:53:45   I know a lot of our listeners enjoy buying things

00:53:47   on the internet and not venturing out

00:53:48   and dealing with people in stores,

00:53:50   especially mattress stores, they are the worst.

00:53:53   So here's what you need to do.

00:53:55   You can get $50 toward any mattress purchase.

00:53:58   What you need to do is go to casper.com.

00:54:00   If you like www, you can stick that in there too,

00:54:03   .casper.com/upgrade and use promo code upgrade

00:54:08   to get the $50 discount.

00:54:11   You should definitely check it out.

00:54:12   100 day free trial so you can return it if you need to,

00:54:17   risk free.

00:54:18   And you may really like it because I really like it

00:54:21   and I'm glad that we have a Casper mattress.

00:54:23   So thank you to our friends at Casper.

00:54:25   They helped me sleep soundly at night

00:54:27   with their neat mattress that I now have.

00:54:31   But open it in the room that you're, seriously,

00:54:33   'cause it's super shrink wrapped into a little thing

00:54:36   and then when you open it up, it just kind of comes out

00:54:39   and goes to full size.

00:54:41   Thanks, Casper.

00:54:41   - It seems like a different kind of magic that does.

00:54:44   - Yeah, yeah, I bought a beanbag chair the other month

00:54:49   and it was the same thing.

00:54:50   came in this tiny box I'm like really they said this would be a big being

00:54:53   married chair and then you open up the the the super vacuum wrap and it's just

00:54:57   like oh my god it's gonna take over the whole house but it's pretty that's

00:55:01   that's shipping magic because they they compacted as much as they can until it

00:55:05   gets to the destination. So there you go $50 off use the code upgrade thank you

00:55:11   so much. Thanks Kasper. I spent a lot of time this weekend with

00:55:20   with video tapes, Myke.

00:55:21   (laughing)

00:55:24   - Welcome to the 1990s cast.

00:55:26   - 19, well, some of these tapes were from the 80s.

00:55:30   - Wow.

00:55:31   - I know, I know.

00:55:33   - I heard about those 80s, you know.

00:55:34   - They were a scene, man, they were crazy.

00:55:39   Yeah, I have had for a long time,

00:55:43   I saved a VCR, I saved my old camcorder,

00:55:47   which I can use to do an analog to digital conversion

00:55:50   that's got a firewire port on it.

00:55:52   And I saved a bunch of these old videotapes

00:55:56   that I had never converted to digital.

00:55:58   And so I just wrote this up on six colors.

00:56:00   I decided they were all sitting like nearby

00:56:04   and a couple of them I had brought out

00:56:05   for some other project and I looked and thought,

00:56:08   huh, maybe I should give that a try now,

00:56:10   see if I can get that working.

00:56:11   That was hilarious because I had to get the input

00:56:16   into my computer, I had to find,

00:56:18   which I still had the iLINK to FireWire 400 cable.

00:56:23   iLINK was like mini FireWire 400.

00:56:26   Sony used it on their camcorders.

00:56:28   So you had to get a special cable,

00:56:29   'cause it was FireWire, but it was a weird port,

00:56:32   little port.

00:56:33   So I had to get that.

00:56:35   Okay, so now I've got iLINK in the camera

00:56:37   and I've got a FireWire 400 cable on the other end.

00:56:40   So then I need to find my FireWire 400 to 800 converter,

00:56:46   which I found.

00:56:47   Then it's time for the Thunderbolts

00:56:50   to Firewire 800 converter.

00:56:52   And then you plug that into the computer

00:56:56   and it actually worked.

00:56:57   I was able to get the output for my VCR to display

00:57:02   on iMovie and Final Cut, the current versions,

00:57:05   but they wouldn't record the video.

00:57:07   They seem to be thinking like I'm gonna download,

00:57:11   I don't know, a file from this camera.

00:57:13   And it didn't work.

00:57:15   - I don't know if they could think.

00:57:17   - They were-- - They were saying, "What?"

00:57:19   - Well, the thing is they saw the video,

00:57:21   so it was streaming through,

00:57:22   but there was no ability to record it.

00:57:24   So I downloaded, or actually I still have it on my system,

00:57:27   iMovie 9, and iMovie 9 would grab it in these DV file format

00:57:32   which is the most inefficient video file format ever.

00:57:35   They're these enormous files for standard definition video,

00:57:38   but it worked.

00:57:41   And so I found a tape that had an appearance

00:57:45   that I made on Call for Help,

00:57:47   the ZDTV show with Leo Laporte from 1999,

00:57:51   where I showed people how to do print preview

00:57:53   in the new version of Internet Explorer for Mac for OS 9.

00:57:57   Woo-hoo!

00:57:58   Or OS 8, maybe.

00:57:59   It might've been a late eight and not even nine yet.

00:58:02   Yeah, good times.

00:58:04   And I found a concert that I had,

00:58:07   I was actually the director.

00:58:09   it was a rock concert with students and teachers

00:58:11   in my high school, my, I think like junior,

00:58:15   sophomore or junior year in high school.

00:58:17   And I found that and I posted that on my Facebook page

00:58:22   to all the people who were in it,

00:58:23   who are all friends of friends on Facebook,

00:58:25   if not direct friends.

00:58:27   And that was really fun.

00:58:29   But a 20 year old videotape, 30 year old videotape,

00:58:32   they're kind of dirty and they're falling apart.

00:58:33   And I had to, I actually had to unscrew the BCR top

00:58:39   and pop it off so that I could just every so often

00:58:41   it would just tangle.

00:58:43   And VHS, an incredibly inefficient, weird format

00:58:46   where it's gotta like suck the tape in.

00:58:49   It flips open the little thing and sucks the tape in

00:58:54   and it's just so easy for that to go wrong

00:58:56   and it did frequently.

00:58:57   I had to get like isopropyl alcohol and some paper

00:59:00   to use as like swabs, pieces of paper to clean the heads

00:59:04   on the VCR.

00:59:05   So I ended up with just like the VCR

00:59:07   completely open to the world.

00:59:08   and would occasionally have to eject the tape

00:59:11   and clean the heads and wind the tape back or untangle it

00:59:15   because it got tangled all around.

00:59:17   - I had a real joy reading this

00:59:19   'cause it sounded crazy. - It was pretty crazy.

00:59:22   It was pretty insane.

00:59:24   But in the end, you know, those people on Facebook

00:59:27   who probably only vaguely remember

00:59:29   that they did this student teacher rock concert in 1987

00:59:33   and then there was two songs

00:59:34   and the intro for the whole band.

00:59:36   So, you know, they're all on there being introduced

00:59:38   by one of the teachers who was the lead singer for that band

00:59:42   and they, you know, they all got to see it on Facebook

00:59:44   and that was actually pretty cool.

00:59:46   And I posted the Leo Laporte thing

00:59:48   and I've got a whole tape of Tech TV that I,

00:59:52   at some point we'll have to pull off too

00:59:54   because that was hilarious.

00:59:56   Just, you know, "Hey, IE 4.5 for Mac is new.

00:59:59   Let me tell you about print preview."

01:00:02   Me at 29 years old or whatever, 28 years old, yeah.

01:00:06   I'm pretty sure I could talk to you for about an hour about that 10 minute clip or whatever

01:00:12   of you and Leo.

01:00:14   Maybe we should do that in a future episode.

01:00:15   That might be...

01:00:16   You know what we should do?

01:00:17   We should break it down.

01:00:19   Well, we should do it with riff tracks.

01:00:21   It could be a connected episode.

01:00:23   Just break it down like bit for bit what troubleshooting was like in the 90s.

01:00:28   When's the next anniversary of that?

01:00:29   We'll make sure we cover that video.

01:00:32   - Oh, you know, sadly, we just missed

01:00:35   an anniversary for that.

01:00:36   - Well, you know, we got a whole year.

01:00:37   - Just missed the 15th anniversary of it, so.

01:00:40   I'll pull some other stuff off of there at some point.

01:00:44   But it's funny, when you've got nothing to lose,

01:00:48   it becomes a lot easier to do some of this stuff.

01:00:49   Like, I'm not really worried about breaking my VCR

01:00:53   or these tapes.

01:00:53   It's like, either I can get them to work or I can't.

01:00:56   So flipping the top off

01:00:57   and like making my own improvised head cleaner

01:01:00   with a piece of paper and some alcohol, it's fine.

01:01:04   It's just like, I just don't care.

01:01:05   It's not like anybody in my family is gonna be angry

01:01:08   'cause I broke the VCR, right?

01:01:10   I mean, nobody cares, so, you know, and it worked.

01:01:13   So that's, it's pretty funny.

01:01:16   The other thing I learned by the way is that I saved

01:01:18   all these like David Letterman shows from the 80s

01:01:21   that were like favorite moments.

01:01:22   And I always thought, well, I'll record those

01:01:24   at some point digitally.

01:01:25   So I've got those to save these favorite moments.

01:01:27   And I was, as I was looking at the tape and saying,

01:01:30   "Oh, that's this episode."

01:01:32   I would do a Google search for the show

01:01:35   and the names of the guests,

01:01:36   because there's like a comprehensive like index

01:01:39   of all of the David Letterman shows.

01:01:41   And so it would say, "Oh, that's May 20th, 1986."

01:01:45   You know, and say, "All right, that's cool."

01:01:47   But what I discovered is that when I searched for that,

01:01:50   I would also find YouTube clips of the whole show.

01:01:54   So what I discovered is a lot of these moments

01:01:56   that I saved on a videotape for 30 years,

01:01:59   figuring I wanna keep that around.

01:02:02   I waited so long that somebody else

01:02:05   who was a much more obsessive saver and taper

01:02:07   and archiver and whatever than I was by far,

01:02:10   that person was also way ahead of me

01:02:13   in uploading that stuff to the internet.

01:02:15   So most of the stuff, I didn't need to actually bring it in.

01:02:20   I just needed to find it on the internet

01:02:22   because it's almost all on, it's kinda crazy.

01:02:25   Like, I'm sure not every episode of Late Night

01:02:28   with David Letterman from the 80s is on the internet,

01:02:30   but the two that I was looking for, I found immediately.

01:02:34   So the entire episode.

01:02:37   So that's pretty crazy.

01:02:38   So, you know, the internet's a big, weird, weird,

01:02:41   weird, weird, weird, weird place.

01:02:43   - One of the interesting things when looking at this,

01:02:47   and I've thought of this before,

01:02:49   I pretty much just assume now that

01:02:51   if I have thought of something,

01:02:54   I want to find a clip of something.

01:02:56   It's going to be on YouTube because somebody else

01:02:58   will have already done that.

01:03:00   - If it's something really popular,

01:03:02   it may not for copyright reasons,

01:03:05   like it's hard to find Simpsons clips on YouTube

01:03:08   because they find those and take those down.

01:03:11   But, you know,

01:03:12   late night with David Letterman episode from May of 1986,

01:03:16   not such a problem.

01:03:17   Nobody is looking for that.

01:03:19   NBC isn't out there shutting down that stuff.

01:03:21   And that's great because I watched an entire episode

01:03:24   of that show from 1986, this weekend, on YouTube, on my TV.

01:03:28   And that was a lot of fun to go back to that point.

01:03:32   And I'm feeling a little nostalgic

01:03:33   because that was my favorite.

01:03:34   That was, you know, in some ways,

01:03:36   the defining comedy for me of my life was in high school.

01:03:41   I watched David Letterman's show every night

01:03:45   and, you know, my sense of humor developed because of that.

01:03:49   And I think if you look,

01:03:50   If you talk to people in the entertainment industry, I mean, he's such an influential

01:03:54   figure for people who do comedy in TV and even like standup comedy today.

01:03:59   Just a huge influence.

01:04:01   And so he's retiring.

01:04:03   And so I've been a little nostalgic for that.

01:04:06   That's one of the reasons I wanted to pull out these videotapes.

01:04:08   And it turns out that, you know, I don't really have a lot to contribute to the YouTube conversation

01:04:12   about the history of this show, because like I said, somebody's gotten there before me

01:04:17   and they've done a much more comprehensive job than I did.

01:04:20   So that's great, 'cause I can just do searches

01:04:23   and find this stuff and that's cool.

01:04:25   So yeah, it's a big world and there's always somebody,

01:04:28   there's always somebody more obsessed

01:04:30   with something than you.

01:04:30   You cannot win an effort war against the internet.

01:04:33   I learned this, I'm gonna bring it all the way back around

01:04:35   to Crowded House.

01:04:36   A friend of mine ran the Crowded House mailing list,

01:04:40   the internet fan mailing list, like email mailing list.

01:04:44   And he got to know the guy who did the Crowded House Fan Club

01:04:48   And he had my friend build a,

01:04:52   we built a web page that was the archive

01:04:54   for the mailing list and I helped him build it.

01:04:56   And the guy in the fan club was like,

01:04:59   "Oh, that's really awesome.

01:05:00   You guys are on the internet doing things about the band

01:05:02   because it was early days of the internet

01:05:03   and things weren't on the internet."

01:05:04   And then at some point, a super madly obsessed fan

01:05:09   decided to build a comprehensive site about the band

01:05:15   and everything connected to the band.

01:05:17   And my friend, Mark and I looked at each other

01:05:19   and we're like, okay, like we can stop now

01:05:23   because we were just, we're like,

01:05:25   hey, we're on the internet and we like this band

01:05:27   and there's this mailing list

01:05:28   so we'll build a couple of pages.

01:05:29   And then all of a sudden, oh my God,

01:05:31   there was somebody who is just so far out of our league

01:05:34   in terms of enthusiasm.

01:05:36   And she just went to town with the fan site.

01:05:39   And that was my first real moment of you can't win

01:05:44   the effort war against a totally dedicated fan.

01:05:47   And there is always someone more dedicated

01:05:50   than you on the internet.

01:05:51   And so we were like, okay,

01:05:52   we're not gonna update this page anymore.

01:05:54   Go over there.

01:05:55   (laughs)

01:05:56   She's got it.

01:05:57   She's got it all and more.

01:05:59   And it was a funny moment.

01:06:01   And I just, I relived that again

01:06:03   with the guy who uploaded all the David Letterman episodes

01:06:05   to YouTube.

01:06:07   Crazy.

01:06:08   But home movies and stuff, that stuff,

01:06:09   I mean, that's what I'm looking for now in these tapes

01:06:11   just stuff that like literally nobody else has.

01:06:14   It's possible.

01:06:16   Is it possible that I have local Sacramento area TV

01:06:19   commercials from the 80s that people would get a really kick

01:06:22   out of seeing again?

01:06:23   Yeah, probably.

01:06:24   Am I gonna be the person who puts those in the internet?

01:06:26   Yeah, probably not.

01:06:27   But stuff like that concert where there are some tapes

01:06:33   out there, people on Facebook who said,

01:06:35   "Yeah, I think I have that tape somewhere too."

01:06:37   But it's less likely that nobody's bothered to put it

01:06:41   on the internet so far, so maybe I should give it a whirl.

01:06:43   - Talking about super fans,

01:06:47   this is something completely random,

01:06:48   but it was in my brain because of Kickstarter.

01:06:51   Have you seen the Exploding Kittens card game Kickstarter?

01:06:56   Has that passed your eye at all?

01:06:57   - No, no.

01:06:58   - One of the people that's involved

01:07:00   in the creation of this card game is the Oatmeal.

01:07:03   So Sean Gaiman. - Oh yeah, yeah.

01:07:05   - It's a card game, it's a crazy card game.

01:07:08   It's been going for six days, I think, five or six days.

01:07:12   It's up to $3.9 million at the moment.

01:07:15   - Wow.

01:07:17   - Within the first 48 hours, it was one of the,

01:07:19   I think the top 20 of all time.

01:07:23   Like, it's insane, 'cause it doesn't,

01:07:25   I've backed it because it looks like a lot of fun.

01:07:28   It looks like a silly card game.

01:07:30   Like, in the best possible way, right?

01:07:31   That's what it's meant to be.

01:07:32   It's meant to be a silly card game.

01:07:33   It's called Exploding Kittens.

01:07:35   But it's just that amount of money is insane.

01:07:38   3.9, it will probably make like five, six million dollars?

01:07:42   - Yeah. - Maybe more, maybe more.

01:07:44   - They're at four million with 24 days to go.

01:07:46   - Yeah, it's incredible, like really, really incredible.

01:07:51   You just see some things, like where are these people

01:07:53   coming from?

01:07:54   - I hope they build a profit margin into their sales,

01:07:59   'cause they're gonna be making an awful lot of cards.

01:08:01   They're gonna be making 100,000 plus sets of cards.

01:08:05   - Yeah, Cards Against Humanity are doing the fulfillment.

01:08:07   In their FAQ they kind of said,

01:08:10   the worst thing is when you have to wait.

01:08:13   Like, you know, we really want to make our dates

01:08:15   so we have Cards Against Humanity doing it for us

01:08:17   because they can handle any amount.

01:08:19   So, I wonder if they really care,

01:08:22   but we'll see about that.

01:08:23   They're probably on the press,

01:08:24   they're probably on the press right now.

01:08:25   - Yeah, the great thing about it being funded

01:08:27   is that they can start doing a run now.

01:08:30   - They probably started beforehand, to be honest.

01:08:33   - Sure.

01:08:33   - 'Cause, you know, if they're working with the cards people

01:08:36   they could probably have just always thought about putting in retail anyway

01:08:39   because I think the Cards Against Humanity people have become a bit

01:08:42   of like a publisher as well now. I find things like that fascinating.

01:08:49   Where are these people coming from? Where are they

01:08:54   coming from to find this project? Anyway, just really really

01:08:58   interesting and cool. Anywho, shall we take our last break for today's episode?

01:09:06   now would you like to do that or would you like to talk about something else

01:09:08   before that? Well I've got I've got one item that I could do really quickly and

01:09:14   then we can just have our last sponsor be sponsoring #AskUpgrade segment

01:09:18   which I like. I would like that. I did a quick link before that about about YouTube

01:09:24   maybe we'll push that one off until next week are you okay with that? Yeah because

01:09:28   I really want to talk about this and I think we'll end up going too long on it.

01:09:31   Yeah so we'll push that one off we've already talked a lot about YouTube today

01:09:35   I wanted to mention something funny that happened.

01:09:37   - I couldn't believe this when I saw it.

01:09:39   - And I need to explain this 'cause people, I think,

01:09:42   are misinterpreting it a little bit.

01:09:44   It is fascinating to me.

01:09:45   So I got approached, Paul Thurat left the Windows Super Site

01:09:50   to start his own site.

01:09:51   And I got approached by the company that owns that site

01:09:53   and they were doing a whole shift with Paul leaving

01:09:55   and they're bringing in a new editor and all of that.

01:09:57   And they talked to me about a bunch of different stuff

01:10:00   and I said, "I'm not really comfortable,

01:10:01   "it's not my area of expertise."

01:10:02   and they're like, "How about you write a column for us

01:10:05   "about Apple stuff because the people who are IT professionals

01:10:08   "have to deal with Apple stuff,

01:10:09   "and they don't know a lot about it necessarily."

01:10:11   And I said, "Well, they're gonna be mad at you

01:10:14   "because they're gonna say,

01:10:15   "how dare you put Apple stuff on my Windows site?"

01:10:17   And they said, "That's fine, we wanna do this.

01:10:20   "This is something that we think is gonna be valuable."

01:10:22   And I said, "All right, I'll give it a go."

01:10:25   And so I wrote a piece, I'm gonna be,

01:10:28   until somebody stops me,

01:10:30   writing a weekly piece on the SuperSite,

01:10:33   which is formerly Paul Thorat's site,

01:10:35   about Apple stuff for an audience

01:10:38   of basically Windows IT professionals.

01:10:41   So that's gonna be interesting.

01:10:42   And the reaction I told, I mean,

01:10:45   I knew what the reaction was gonna be.

01:10:46   It's actually kind of delightful

01:10:48   to not be the editor in charge of the site

01:10:49   that's getting the angry reaction,

01:10:51   'cause I've been that person.

01:10:53   And I know that they're like,

01:10:53   "I can't believe you're doing this,

01:10:54   "and why do we have to read about this?"

01:10:57   And so it's kinda nice to just be the writer,

01:11:00   'cause I can just focus on what I'm gonna focus on.

01:11:02   And I'm not really interested.

01:11:04   There are a lot of people who are like,

01:11:06   it's exactly what would happen

01:11:07   if Macworld did a whole column about Windows,

01:11:09   which I think maybe we did at some point

01:11:11   and people were like, ah, this is outrageous.

01:11:13   Why are you doing this?

01:11:14   And so my goal with that is to bridge the gap.

01:11:19   I mean, my goal is literally like the premise is

01:11:22   IT people have to support Apple stuff now,

01:11:24   in almost every environment.

01:11:26   They're at least supporting iPhones

01:11:28   and they may be supporting iPads

01:11:29   and they may be supporting Macs.

01:11:31   And they don't always know a whole lot about them

01:11:33   because they are not Mac people.

01:11:35   And if I can bring some perspective about what Apple's doing

01:11:39   in general and in businesses,

01:11:42   as somebody who used a Mac in a business

01:11:44   that was very Windows-focused for a long time,

01:11:46   'cause IDG was always a very Windows-focused company

01:11:49   in terms of the technology,

01:11:51   if I can bring some of that kind of Apple knowledge

01:11:56   to not to convert anybody,

01:11:58   I don't even wanna play the tribalism games

01:12:00   and people who are angriest about it are very tribalistic.

01:12:03   They're like, "I can't believe there's Apple things here.

01:12:04   Oh, I hate Apple."

01:12:06   It's like, okay, whatever.

01:12:07   I've met that IT person who hates Apple

01:12:10   and doesn't know why we would use these terrible things

01:12:13   that Apple makes when we could use amazing things

01:12:15   that people, companies that are not Apple make.

01:12:18   But my goal is that, is to bring my perspective

01:12:22   to a site that is read by people who don't have it

01:12:26   and not to convert them, but to arm them with knowledge

01:12:30   and information about this thing that they probably need

01:12:33   to know more about to be well-rounded professionals.

01:12:36   And if it works, then great.

01:12:40   I'm looking forward to giving it a try.

01:12:42   It's a little outside my comfort zone,

01:12:44   but the Apple subject is not,

01:12:47   but the catering to a more businessy and more IT audience

01:12:52   is a little different for me.

01:12:54   And I'm gonna give it a go.

01:12:55   And at some point if the editors of the site say,

01:12:57   "Look, it's not working.

01:12:59   They don't wanna read it.

01:13:00   We don't wanna pay you."

01:13:02   Then so be it.

01:13:03   But it's a- - This is a terrible mistake.

01:13:04   Who let you here in the first place?

01:13:06   - Then I will stop writing it

01:13:08   and they will stop paying me for it.

01:13:09   But as it is, it's yeah, it's a weekly freelance thing.

01:13:14   I have received a couple of tweets that are like,

01:13:16   "I can't believe they hired Jason to work at-"

01:13:18   No, no, they did not hire me.

01:13:21   They are paying me to write them a column once a week.

01:13:24   and that's, I had one person say,

01:13:26   "What does this mean for six colors?"

01:13:29   And the answer is, there's a reason that I'm paying

01:13:32   Dan Morin to do six colors on Thursdays,

01:13:36   and maybe, you know, maybe more time at some point

01:13:39   is so that I can do freelance work.

01:13:41   'Cause, and I'm doing, this is the first,

01:13:45   I think, freelance work that's been really visible,

01:13:47   but I've got a lot of other freelance stuff going on

01:13:50   that will hit, I've got a story for the Wirecutter

01:13:52   that should be going up later this month,

01:13:53   I did write that story for Sweet Setup.

01:13:56   And I'm talking to people about some other stuff too.

01:13:59   So it seemed like a fun challenge.

01:14:02   They really wanted to work with me.

01:14:03   And again, I'm just kind of over the,

01:14:09   the comments are going to be full of angry commenters

01:14:12   because they're comments on the internet.

01:14:13   But I'm hoping that I can provide something

01:14:17   that that audience or at least some chunk

01:14:18   of that audience finds useful.

01:14:20   'Cause that's, again, I'm kinda over the whole,

01:14:24   the whole tribalism wars between platforms kinda thing.

01:14:28   And if people wanna get angry about that,

01:14:30   then they're welcome to,

01:14:31   but I'm not gonna get angry about it.

01:14:33   I think good IT professionals should be well-armed

01:14:36   with knowledge about this Apple stuff.

01:14:37   And a lot of them didn't spend a lot of time

01:14:39   thinking about it and how they're forced to support it.

01:14:41   And if I can interpret what Apple is doing

01:14:44   and what Mac and iOS users want to them

01:14:48   so that they're better able to understand

01:14:50   what those people want, then I think that's good for them.

01:14:53   And that's sort of what my goal is.

01:14:55   - You can appreciate the craziness of it though, right?

01:14:59   On the surface of it, how crazy it does seem.

01:15:02   - Oh sure.

01:15:03   - The Mac world guy, you know?

01:15:05   You're like the Bill Gates in the Steve Jobs scenario,

01:15:09   you know, you're like staring down on WinSuperSite

01:15:11   and be like, "I am the Mac guy."

01:15:13   It's cool though.

01:15:15   - The bigger issue is that, you know,

01:15:16   Paul, the founder of the site left

01:15:17   And if I were a loyal reader of that side,

01:15:20   I'd be like, what are they doing?

01:15:22   What's going on?

01:15:22   They're ruining everything here.

01:15:24   - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But change is hard.

01:15:25   Change is hard.

01:15:26   I mean, that was true at Macworld.

01:15:28   That was certainly true when we were doing things

01:15:30   with PC World and the audience was angry.

01:15:34   Macworld's audience was angry that we covered iOS.

01:15:36   I mean, people get angry about all sorts of stuff.

01:15:38   - This would never have happened if Thorop was still alive.

01:15:41   (laughing)

01:15:44   One of my favorite things about Six Colors

01:15:46   It's like from day one you've had other people writing on the site.

01:15:50   I just like that because it is you, but you have other people.

01:15:54   I mean--

01:15:55   Well, I took a page from Federico and I put Jason Stellan Friends at the top.

01:15:59   Yeah, it's nice.

01:16:00   I like it a lot.

01:16:02   It does-- it is still difficult sometimes because I think you're writing everything.

01:16:07   So I have to check.

01:16:09   But there's just nothing you can do about that, really.

01:16:11   It's the same problem that The Loop has had forever.

01:16:14   matter who writes it everybody initially thinks it's Jim. Yeah I put a byline and

01:16:18   a bio on all of Dan's pieces now because people keep asking me things about Dan's

01:16:22   pieces. That's fine it's you know it happens but it has been there since the

01:16:27   beginning. You could take that as a compliment to both of you though because

01:16:30   yeah and and Glenn wrote something on that I posted on Friday, Glenn Fleischman

01:16:34   so you know I've had a few other people on there Dan Frakes wrote something and

01:16:38   Steve Macchino wrote something and you know I'm not I'm not at the point now

01:16:42   where Six Colors is a site with a staff or anything. It's still really me and Dan one

01:16:48   day a week. And yeah, we'll see where it goes. I would love to get to the point where Dan

01:16:54   could do even more. And it would become like a little staff. As we record this, it's Monday,

01:16:59   the Apple financial results are tomorrow. Dan and I will be cranking up the live blog

01:17:04   machine.

01:17:05   Oh, you're gonna do the live tweet?

01:17:06   For that, yeah.

01:17:07   Yes.

01:17:08   Yeah.

01:17:09   I loved that last time. That was so much fun.

01:17:10   I'd like to get to the point where I would love it

01:17:13   if Six Colors had a little bit of a staff

01:17:15   and it wasn't just me and Dan on Thursdays.

01:17:18   And we'll see.

01:17:19   - What's the Twitter account for the live?

01:17:21   I'll put it in the show notes.

01:17:23   - I think the live, oh, let's see.

01:17:26   It's something weird 'cause I don't have

01:17:28   Six Colors on Twitter.

01:17:29   It's Six Colors Event, S-I-X Colors Event.

01:17:37   - Cool, so you should follow that.

01:17:40   We'll also embed that tweet stream on the site.

01:17:44   - Very cool, very cool.

01:17:46   I liked that last time.

01:17:47   That was a lot of fun.

01:17:48   You two are good pairing for that kind of thing.

01:17:51   So, yeah, let's talk about MailRoute.

01:17:56   And because MailRoute are bringing you

01:17:59   all of your Ask upgrade this week.

01:18:01   All of the Ask upgrade that you could ask for

01:18:03   is being brought to you by MailRoute.

01:18:05   - Yes, and thank you to MailRoute.

01:18:07   I talked about them before.

01:18:09   I have mail route on my domain,

01:18:12   and it is, the way it works is it is sitting

01:18:15   between my mail server and the internet.

01:18:19   And mail routes, dedicated servers,

01:18:22   are scanning all inbound mail for spam,

01:18:24   for viruses, for bounced mail.

01:18:26   And that stuff just doesn't get through.

01:18:27   So my mail server never gets that junk.

01:18:30   That junk never even reaches the server,

01:18:32   let alone my client.

01:18:33   So you open your mail, and this is what I do,

01:18:36   and my inbox is clear.

01:18:37   And even my spam folder is pretty much clear

01:18:42   because the spam has been incarcerated

01:18:45   at mail routes servers.

01:18:48   The light is green, the trap is clean.

01:18:49   That's a Ghostbusters reference.

01:18:50   Myke, have you seen Ghostbusters?

01:18:52   - Of course I've seen Ghostbusters.

01:18:53   - Okay, thank goodness.

01:18:54   Well, the Princess Bride for Pete's sake.

01:18:56   See it, that's your assignment, that's your homework.

01:18:58   See the Princess Bride.

01:18:59   So the spam is gone.

01:19:02   And because it is happening in the cloud,

01:19:04   I don't need to install any special software or hardware.

01:19:07   it all just happens before it even reaches me.

01:19:09   So it was super easy to set up.

01:19:11   I can manage it for all of the users in my domain

01:19:14   and everybody gets their own thing that they can tweak.

01:19:18   There is an optional spam report that can be sent to you

01:19:21   that lists everything that has been stopped

01:19:24   and hasn't reached you.

01:19:25   That can make for some really amusing reading.

01:19:28   Sometimes I just like to read the subject lines

01:19:29   because it's hilarious to see what spammers are trying to do

01:19:33   to get past the front door and failing.

01:19:35   And if I do see something that's legit in there,

01:19:37   it's one click and it's delivered

01:19:38   and that person is white listed.

01:19:39   So it's super easy to do.

01:19:41   If you're an email administrator or IT professional,

01:19:44   they are thinking of you.

01:19:45   This service is used at large universities

01:19:47   and corporations as well.

01:19:48   They built tools with you in mind.

01:19:50   There's an API for account management,

01:19:52   LDAP support, active directory support, TLS,

01:19:55   mail bagging,

01:19:56   (bell ringing)

01:19:58   a bell, nice.

01:20:00   And outbound relay, everything you want

01:20:02   if you are an email admin or an IT pro.

01:20:05   And so here's what you do.

01:20:07   remove spam from your life for good by going to mailroute.net/upgrade. You'll get a free

01:20:12   trial and 10% off for the lifetime of your account. So thank you very much to our friends

01:20:17   at MailRoute for sponsoring the show and for filtering the spam out of my mail.

01:20:22   I'm scared that I'm upping the game with the mail bagging and eventually I'm going

01:20:27   to have to bring in a brass band. If I start here, where do I end up going?

01:20:34   Yeah, well, you're down that path now. It's too late for you. Good luck.

01:20:41   #AskUpgrade brought to you by MailRoute. Here we go. You know that guy, the guy who has

01:20:47   the Twitter account that just complains about sponsors on podcasts, actually said something

01:20:52   nice about the fact that we have verticals that are sponsored.

01:20:55   Yeah, I don't want to talk about that. I really don't want to talk about that. I don't want

01:20:58   to get into that again.

01:21:01   to you by mail route listener Tim Lucas I don't know I think that may be a

01:21:07   Twitter name says if you take the computer guts from a macbook and put it

01:21:11   into a small box could Apple make a Mac nano Mac Mac what was it Mac X what was

01:21:20   that X Mac there it is my brain my brain found it do you remember that yeah but

01:21:26   - That's the mythical mid-range Mac mini tower,

01:21:29   lots of M's.

01:21:30   - But in theory, that's what this would probably be, right?

01:21:35   - No, I think Timokus is thinking of a Mac mini

01:21:39   that's even smaller.

01:21:40   Like how small could you make the Mac mini

01:21:42   if you took like a MacBook Air circuit board?

01:21:46   Although the Mac mini pretty much is that.

01:21:48   I mean, the Mac mini is pretty close.

01:21:50   How much smaller could the Mac mini be, really?

01:21:55   and Apple seems to not be interested in making computers

01:21:57   that you can open ever, ever again.

01:22:01   But I think the Mac Mini could get smaller.

01:22:04   I think there are some heat issues and all of that.

01:22:07   And I don't know what they're doing with the Mac Mini,

01:22:09   but that is essentially what the Mac Mini is,

01:22:10   it's a laptop that's just inside that little aluminum shell.

01:22:15   It's an interesting idea.

01:22:18   How small, again, how small does a Mac Mini need to be?

01:22:21   Does it really matter how small it is?

01:22:22   And yet-

01:22:23   I don't think that the case there is the physical size.

01:22:30   It's the cost barrier.

01:22:34   So the Mac Mini now, we've been through this, is very underpowered.

01:22:38   Yes, yes.

01:22:39   It's gotten cheaper.

01:22:40   The Mac Pro is, for most people, way overpowered, but it's also way overpriced.

01:22:46   It's massively--not overpriced, it's just way highly priced.

01:22:48   It's very expensive.

01:22:49   Yes.

01:22:50   And you have to have a real reason for that.

01:22:52   But if you want a desktop Mac, like you don't want a laptop, you want a desktop Mac like

01:22:56   I did, Mac Mini was not powerful enough and the Mac Pro is very expensive.

01:23:02   So having something sitting in the middle there is an interesting idea and the idea

01:23:06   of it being effectively a beefed up laptop sitting inside a box, that is enticing to

01:23:12   many people, especially if you maybe want a small Mac to put in the living room.

01:23:16   There are many applications for it and looking at what Apple is doing with the Mac Mini and

01:23:21   what they're doing with the Mac Pro, they are leaving this huge gap in the middle

01:23:25   that I, that not for everyone isn't fulfilled by either the iMac or a laptop.

01:23:29   But it's a choice to leave that gap and I'm sure that they've done enough

01:23:34   thinking and market research to be happy to leave that on the table but for

01:23:38   people that are looking for an option there is a space there I think.

01:23:42   Yeah, yep I don't think they're ever gonna do it. I think that's the iMac.

01:23:46   They just like, you know, the Mac Mini is one edge case and Mac Pro is the

01:23:51   other and then in the middle, how about a monitor attached to that

01:23:56   computer? Yeah, I would say that it's perfectly fine to have just a Mac Mini

01:24:00   and the Mac Pro, but the Mac Mini has taken a regression, which isn't, which

01:24:04   that's the problem. Which we talked about, yeah. Yeah.

01:24:10   Listener Nicholas asks, "How do you manage semi-shared media like music and photos

01:24:17   in your household with individual organization but avoiding duplicates?"

01:24:22   There's probably a whole show here but I'm curious what you do with your media,

01:24:27   just the short version of this is what do you do with media and you know music

01:24:31   and photos in you know where do you store that stuff? How do you do that?

01:24:35   I would love to say I had a really good system for it. I don't know, I put like a lot of it in Dropbox to be honest.

01:24:46   A lot of the media goes in Dropbox. And I have like an external hard drive that I use for like what I call cold storage.

01:24:55   So something, I've had something for a long period of time. I'll put it onto the external hard drive for cold storage.

01:25:04   But then again, the thing is it's all mine though, really.

01:25:09   I don't, that's just what I do with my stuff.

01:25:13   I actually don't really have a shared system

01:25:17   of anyone at the moment.

01:25:18   I think that sort of stuff comes when you have kids.

01:25:20   - That's true.

01:25:21   I have a Mac mini, see, it's all connected.

01:25:25   I have a Mac mini with music files on it

01:25:29   and then that is shared throughout the house

01:25:31   because I've got these, you know,

01:25:32   squeeze box music players that are like Sonos except discontinued. And so they all have

01:25:38   access to that and I have access to that on my computers and all, you know, we can all

01:25:42   listen to music that way. Photos is a disaster. I'm looking forward to the Photos app whenever

01:25:50   it may arrive because we still have iPhoto libraries that are way too large and are backed

01:25:56   up but they're sort of like only in one place and it's actually now, you know, I can open

01:26:01   them from my computer but they're just it's slow and it's it's painful. I can't

01:26:05   speak to the truth of this right now but I saw somebody tweet earlier that there

01:26:09   is all mentions of the photos app has been removed from the Apple website. Wow

01:26:16   that's interesting. Yes concerning is what it is. Since that was promised this

01:26:22   year and they've stopped working on the other on the other stuff well that's

01:26:25   really interesting. I'm now kind of just scanning the Apple website like to see

01:26:31   if I can see it anywhere. I definitely cannot. It's not on the Yosemite page.

01:26:35   I'll tell you what, I'll take a look on it. It was on the iOS 8 page before, wasn't it?

01:26:40   Well, it is possible that they're doing that because they've got

01:26:44   something to roll out, and when they roll it out they want it to all be

01:26:49   that message and not about this future thing. It could be. Hopefully.

01:26:53   A positive person would say that. Hopefully. Currently the imagery shows iPhoto. Nice.

01:26:59   Which is not good. Not good. There is on the photos page now on the iCloud

01:27:05   / photos page there is no imagery of the desktop app. Right which they had I they

01:27:12   sent me a sample mock-up of the of the like pro version of the photos app

01:27:18   there was a replacement version. My memory says they used to be an image

01:27:22   which was the phone the iPad and the Mac that that imagery does not exist anymore

01:27:26   more. Oh dear. Yeah. Let's just hope that they just they've revamped it a little

01:27:31   bit and they don't wanna they don't wanna spill the beans. Let's hope it's

01:27:34   that. Yeah sure. Think positive. Think different. Listener Lex who is not Lex Friedman. I

01:27:41   thought it was Lex Friedman. It's not Lex Friedman. Okay. Says have you ever had

01:27:45   those moments where you felt like you were living in the future? I was at a bar,

01:27:48   I heard a great song, I held my phone in the air, bought the song with my

01:27:52   fingerprint. The future is here. #RelayYourFeels #AskUprate

01:28:00   He's going for everywhere. Yeah, he wants, yeah, but you know, I just like that, I

01:28:03   like that moment. That is, somebody from Apple get listener Lex on

01:28:09   the line. That's a, that's a, that demo as well. Yeah, that happens. I can't think of

01:28:14   anything off the top of my head, but every now and then you get that like, "Oh man, what am I,

01:28:18   how am I doing this?" kind of feeling. Can you believe that that just happened? I

01:28:21   I love those moments when they come.

01:28:23   And I like, you know, that we were talking,

01:28:25   you listen to these shows that speculate about technology.

01:28:30   And the funny thing is you realize that,

01:28:32   you know, you don't go from dreaming

01:28:36   that there's gonna be the science fictional thing

01:28:38   to the thing happening.

01:28:39   Usually what happens is there's the science fictional thing

01:28:42   and then a lot of time passes.

01:28:43   And then you have that moment where you realize,

01:28:45   oh, you know, all the pieces,

01:28:48   it's no longer like in the future,

01:28:51   instead of telephones, will communicate via video phone.

01:28:54   And you think, well, when's that gonna happen?

01:28:56   When are they gonna sell us a video phone?

01:28:58   And the reality was we all got smartphones and FaceTime,

01:29:02   and that's sort of what happened.

01:29:04   And it's not the phone system and it's the internet,

01:29:07   and it's not a phone that you're using,

01:29:09   or it is a phone,

01:29:09   but not the phone as we thought of it back then.

01:29:11   You know, it takes those steps,

01:29:12   and you realize the technology now exists

01:29:15   to make this thing that we used to think was magical.

01:29:18   And now you can see how it would all be put together.

01:29:20   if not now, then in the near future.

01:29:22   Those are neat moments where you realize,

01:29:25   oh, all the pieces of that are here now.

01:29:30   They're all plausible now.

01:29:31   And that in the next five years,

01:29:33   we'll probably see something like that,

01:29:35   whatever it is, some science fictional thing.

01:29:37   And those are neat moments too.

01:29:39   - Definitely, yeah.

01:29:42   - And then listener Chris sent us a song

01:29:45   or parody lyrics to an existing song.

01:29:48   I'm not gonna sing it. I don't know what the song is. I thought I was gonna sing it. It's

01:29:55   God Bless the USA. Oh I don't know if I know where that goes. Yeah but anyway, proud to

01:30:02   be an Upgradient is the key phrase there. So thank you to listener Chris and I at one

01:30:08   point late last night after having had several beers and played Dungeons and Dragons for

01:30:14   four hours I thought that I was going to sing that song to end this episode and I am not

01:30:23   opposed to singing. In fact I sang a couple times during the Dungeons and Dragons podcast.

01:30:27   I am not going to sing today. Are you not singing today because you had some beers during

01:30:32   the Dungeons and Dragons podcast? That's possible too. It's too late. I left all my singing

01:30:40   out there. So, but thank you listener Chris for the parody song lyrics #AskUpgrade, American

01:30:46   flag emoji.

01:30:50   Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Upgrade. If you'd like to find

01:30:55   the show notes for today's show, you can point your web browser at relay.fm/upgrade/20 or

01:31:00   of course go into the app that you're using and click on the correct button and they'll

01:31:05   They'll be right there in front of you.

01:31:07   I think the reason that I do this is because

01:31:09   I think most people that are listening in an app

01:31:11   know the show notes are probably there.

01:31:14   And it's more for the people that don't know where to go.

01:31:17   I don't know.

01:31:19   That's kind of my thinking for what I do.

01:31:20   - It's good to mention the web address

01:31:22   because a lot of people, you know,

01:31:24   people listen to podcasts, they don't tie it to the web.

01:31:26   And so they may not know that there is a page,

01:31:28   that there is a website for Relay.

01:31:30   And so, you know, it's good to reinforce that.

01:31:32   That yes, there is a website and you can always go there

01:31:34   look up what we were talking about on a past show. When you get to wherever you're driving

01:31:38   right now, you can go to the web and look it up. Or, yes, you can look at it in the

01:31:43   app.

01:31:44   Because also there is additional information on the website sometimes. So sometimes there's

01:31:49   stuff that's like images and stuff that not all clients show. But if you want to find

01:31:53   the links to contact us or if you want to find us on Twitter and stuff like that, even

01:31:57   though we mention a bunch of it, it's all there as well. So it's just an additional

01:32:01   But that is a very good point, but I don't know enough about all of the apps to give people

01:32:07   effective

01:32:09   Instructions right it's there somewhere

01:32:11   Or just go to the web or just go to the web if you want to find us on Twitter you can do so

01:32:15   I am at I Myke but of course I should have introduced at J Snell first like a gentleman would yes

01:32:21   You're very sliding there

01:32:23   I've been trying to do that this week, and then that just slipped out then I had it in my brain like I've got to

01:32:27   do it but no totally totally forgot about it so @JSNEL on Twitter J S N E double L

01:32:32   and of course Jason writes the fantastic six colors dot-com along with some of

01:32:37   his friends and spell it you can spell it in the English way if you'd like to I

01:32:41   think you should and that will also take you to the fantastic six colors and as I

01:32:46   mentioned I am Myke Early and you can find many of my shows at relay.fm

01:32:51   thank you so much for listening thanks to our sponsors again Linda Casper

01:32:56   mail route and we'll be back next time. Bye bye. Say goodbye Myke. Oh goodbye Jason. I finally get to do that!