18: Special Interface Snowflake


00:00:00   [Music]

00:00:08   From Relay FM, this is Upgrade.

00:00:11   This is episode number 18 and today's show is brought to you by lynda.com where you can

00:00:16   instantly stream thousands of courses created by industry experts.

00:00:19   For a 10-day free trial, visit lynda.com/upgrade, MailRoute, a secure hosted email service for

00:00:25   for protection from viruses and spam, and Stamps.com,

00:00:29   postage on demand.

00:00:30   My name is Myke Hurley, and I have the pleasure

00:00:33   of being joined by your host and mine,

00:00:35   the one and only, man of action, Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:40   I just want to keep it going. - In this corner!

00:00:43   Five feet 11, 200 pounds!

00:00:45   - I thought I've used enough interesting ways

00:00:47   to describe you, I might as well just keep going

00:00:49   until it ends, and I've got there.

00:00:52   - Yeah, hi Myke, how's it going?

00:00:53   - I am very well, sir, how are you?

00:00:55   Doing good, doing good, good, starting the week.

00:00:58   I'm in this thing, it's funny in my new life

00:01:00   that I'm in this, I'm realizing that all of my old

00:01:05   sort of cycles of what I would do are gone,

00:01:07   obviously, since September, but I'm starting to recognize

00:01:12   the things that I'm kind of, are my new cycles

00:01:15   that are starting to happen, things that I'm used

00:01:17   to having happen, and these days, on Sunday,

00:01:22   I usually am thinking about what upgrade is gonna be

00:01:25   and making sure that our topic list is up to date,

00:01:27   checking the #AskUpgrade spreadsheet and things like that.

00:01:32   And then Monday morning, the kids are going to school,

00:01:35   everybody's having a little harder time waking up,

00:01:37   and my wife and I will drop my son off at school

00:01:40   and take a little bit of a walk.

00:01:42   And then I come home and then it's sort of like,

00:01:44   then I actually switch the sponsors on six colors,

00:01:48   and then I get ready to do Upgraded.

00:01:50   It's like my Monday, Upgrade,

00:01:51   my Sunday night, Monday morning,

00:01:54   that's just a big part of it is getting ready to do this.

00:01:56   So it's nice.

00:01:57   It's nice to have some mild posts like that.

00:01:59   So I'm not like waking up wondering what day it is.

00:02:01   Which could happen in this kind of,

00:02:06   when I don't leave the house to go anywhere,

00:02:08   that could happen.

00:02:10   - Indeed.

00:02:13   Yes, I went swimming this morning.

00:02:15   So I feel terrible.

00:02:17   - Did you go to the Olympic pool?

00:02:18   - Yeah, I went to the Olympic pool.

00:02:19   - Oh, good.

00:02:22   I'm not one of these people,

00:02:24   and I know many people like this,

00:02:26   that feel great after they work out.

00:02:28   You know? - Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:02:30   The endorphin rush thing. - Yeah.

00:02:32   I feel like I have the opposite of that,

00:02:33   but that's maybe something for another day.

00:02:38   - Well, you're doomed then if you don't.

00:02:40   I did, I'm actually thinking,

00:02:41   I did, I started running a couple years ago.

00:02:44   I ran when I was in high school

00:02:48   just to burn off my extra energy.

00:02:51   and just not like in an organized way,

00:02:55   like literally put the tape in the,

00:02:56   'cause I'm old, in the Walkman and run.

00:02:59   And I started running again a couple of years ago

00:03:04   and then, because my daughter had to run a mile,

00:03:07   and so we did a couch to 5K kind of thing,

00:03:09   and we did that and then we stopped,

00:03:11   because basically if we didn't schedule it,

00:03:13   and I thought about going back to that.

00:03:15   And my experience doing that a couple of years ago

00:03:17   after having not really run for a long time,

00:03:19   except when chased by bears, is that I totally get that afterward I feel like I felt like

00:03:29   I'd accomplished something.

00:03:30   And I wouldn't say I felt good, I would say I felt good tired.

00:03:34   I felt like I was tired afterward, but in a, like, I don't know, like a good kind of

00:03:41   tired as opposed to just I'm exhausted.

00:03:43   It was more like I had accomplished something and that was why I was low on energy afterward.

00:03:49   It's weird. It's fine. I'm not a fan of exercise. I force myself to do it sometimes, not as

00:03:53   often as I should. And yeah. But I should do more. It's the exercise vertical.

00:04:00   It is. Jason Snow. Do you have some follow-up for us today?

00:04:04   I do. Listener and Upgrading Wes Morgan wrote in to ask, "Can we refer to the shore-up release

00:04:12   that's been theorized of OS X 10.11?" Everybody is hoping that there will be, rather than

00:04:18   in a major new release with a lot of new features.

00:04:23   We'll get to that in a moment.

00:04:24   Can we refer to that as snowsemity?

00:04:28   Hashtag ask upright.

00:04:29   No.

00:04:32   Nope.

00:04:33   We can't.

00:04:34   Don't do it.

00:04:35   - Nice try Wes, but we can't do that.

00:04:38   - Nope.

00:04:39   Anyway, moving on.

00:04:41   Listener Justin.

00:04:42   Okay, so listener Justin appears to be our winner.

00:04:46   We talked about the how many hours has SmartSpeed saved you in Overcast last time.

00:04:51   And many people wrote to us.

00:04:56   Lots and lots of many of lots and lots of many of people.

00:05:00   With their hour totals.

00:05:03   Thank you for sending them over though.

00:05:04   It's been interesting to see how basically everybody listens to more podcasts than me.

00:05:10   I was quite proud of my number, Jason.

00:05:12   What was your number?

00:05:14   I'm gonna go back now.

00:05:15   It might be something like 40 or something like that.

00:05:18   - Yeah, mine's like 20.

00:05:19   - It was so much that I had to double check the wording.

00:05:23   Oh, 28 I'm at.

00:05:25   Because it said, "Smart speed has saved you

00:05:28   "an extra 28 hours beyond speed adjustments alone."

00:05:31   So I wanted to just double check

00:05:33   that it wasn't all speed adjustments.

00:05:36   - Yeah, but it's just smart speed.

00:05:37   - It's just smart speed.

00:05:38   So it's like, so when,

00:05:41   we haven't said the amount yet, have we?

00:05:45   - No, so, so listener Justin, so the winner,

00:05:47   so far as we can tell is listener Justin,

00:05:50   upgradeian Justin, who said,

00:05:52   "I have saved 222 hours using smart speed on Overcast."

00:05:57   And then he followed that up by trash talking a little bit

00:06:02   and saying, "Hashtag upgradeians aren't hashtag amateurs."

00:06:05   I am to where is, yeah, yeah.

00:06:08   - I can't even understand how.

00:06:12   - I don't, he just, he just listens all the time.

00:06:15   - Yeah, like I don't get it, I just don't get it.

00:06:17   Like what are you, like to save 222 hours

00:06:21   just to smart speed, like how many thousands of hours?

00:06:25   - That's, I can't, maybe he listens to lots of podcasts

00:06:29   with lots of pauses.

00:06:30   - So I spoke to Justin a little bit

00:06:33   because I was taken aback.

00:06:36   And he says he subscribes to over 100 podcasts,

00:06:40   but he listens to probably like 25,

00:06:43   and he's allowed to listen at work all day.

00:06:46   So he does, he listens all day, every day.

00:06:48   - Amazing. - Congratulations.

00:06:51   - And again, a lot of pauses, I think,

00:06:52   are happening to listener Justin.

00:06:54   So I think he wins, but we thank everybody

00:06:57   for sharing their number.

00:06:58   We also helped somebody.

00:07:00   It turns out there was a bug that Marco is hoping is fixed

00:07:03   in the update that he's about to do for Overcast,

00:07:06   that some people don't see their saved hours.

00:07:08   And we have a couple people, I think, who discovered that.

00:07:11   So we did some good in the world,

00:07:13   and stop sending us how many hours you saved

00:07:15   because we appreciated it

00:07:18   and we don't need to see it anymore.

00:07:21   My Twitter stream was full of just screenshots

00:07:23   of overcast with the text saying,

00:07:25   26 hours, 34 hours, 52 hours.

00:07:28   - I did that thing. - 222.

00:07:30   - Just to see what it was like.

00:07:31   I did that thing with Tweetbot

00:07:32   where you turn it into the media stream.

00:07:35   And I'm just looking for it,

00:07:36   I'm like, it's just pictures of it.

00:07:37   - It's just overcast.

00:07:38   - I only want to hear from you about this now.

00:07:41   you've beaten 222 hours. Yes, you gotta beat listener Justin. If you don't beat

00:07:45   upgrade Ian Justin, then I don't want to see it. Yes, he's a proud upgrade Ian. Moving on to other

00:07:54   feedback, listener Amgid wrote in to say, "Regarding Apple software, has anyone

00:08:01   mentioned the f-word potential impact of Scott Forstall leaving Apple? Could his

00:08:08   leaving have been a potential cause for some of the software instability that

00:08:12   we're that we're currently seeing. As I said last week, one of our really big

00:08:18   challenges with talking about this is that we're on the outside. I don't

00:08:23   have any inside information about the exactly what everybody at Apple is doing

00:08:28   and whose positions were what and why changes were made and I don't have that.

00:08:32   And so there are people you know who've got sources or secret

00:08:38   you know, former Apple developers or whoever,

00:08:40   anonymous Apple developers who could maybe tell more.

00:08:43   From the outside, I would say that if there's anybody

00:08:46   whose departure strikes me as being somebody

00:08:48   who might've had an impact on what Apple is doing

00:08:51   with their software methodology,

00:08:53   it's probably Bertrand Cerlet.

00:08:55   - Why is that?

00:08:57   - Well, he was for a long time,

00:09:00   I mean, he was the OS guy at Apple.

00:09:03   And while Scott Forstall was the high profile

00:09:08   big name, big name on stage kind of guy, whereas Bertrand you never saw unless you went to

00:09:14   the State of the Union session after lunch on keynote day at WWDC. But he was the Senior

00:09:23   Vice President of Software Engineering at Apple from '97 to 2011. Well, I mean, he was

00:09:30   -- Avi Tavenian was in charge and then Bertrand was in charge. After 2003 Bertrand was in

00:09:35   charge until he left Apple. And, you know, again, I don't know all the details, but it

00:09:43   strikes me that he seems to be a guy who had some very specific, he was not a public kind

00:09:49   of person, but he struck me as being somebody who was pretty professional and was running

00:09:56   that ship for a very long time. And his departure, it strikes me, probably had a big impact on

00:10:02   on Apple. But again, I don't know. That would just be, that would be my guess. It's easy

00:10:05   for us to point at Scott Forstall because he was very high profile. He was on stage.

00:10:09   There are lots of stories about Steve Jobs liking him, about him not getting along with

00:10:13   other people. And then he was obviously sent to the garden for some gardening leave by

00:10:19   Tim Cook. But I wonder about Bertrand and whether Bertrand had more of an impact. But

00:10:24   I don't know because I'm not, you know, I don't have input into that. But I think one

00:10:30   of the mistakes we sometimes make when we're talking about Apple is we're looking, like

00:10:34   I said, at the surface and we're looking at people whose names we've heard and there are

00:10:37   stories about them. And sometimes it can be not one particular person or it might be a

00:10:41   person that you haven't even heard of unless you're, you know, at WWDC or you know engineers

00:10:46   at Apple who know this executive. So I'll just throw that out there that maybe Bertrand

00:10:52   Cerlet. He had a lovely French accent. I always enjoyed listening to him talk about the operating

00:10:58   systems and pronounce various operating system code names in French accent.

00:11:03   So my question with this is, who replaced Bertrand then? Did nobody replace him?

00:11:10   Yeah I don't know. Because there was there's a gap there like if he left in

00:11:15   2011 because they didn't do the like the software group merging until later to

00:11:21   like what 2013, 2014? Because that was after Forstall left right and he left

00:11:27   later than 2011 didn't he? Yeah it looks to me like Bertrand was in charge of

00:11:33   operating system and Forstall was in charge of iOS so Forstall worked for

00:11:39   Bertrand so far as I could tell but again not on the inside don't have I'm

00:11:44   trying to remember trying to rack my brain. So then maybe when he left they

00:11:47   just split them a little bit and then nobody kind of took over from him and

00:11:52   then Forstall left and then they squished it all into what like Federighi's

00:11:57   team? Yeah, I mean, Forstall left in 2012 and Bertrand left in 2011, so it was

00:12:06   right in there. So maybe Forstall, I don't know, maybe those things,

00:12:09   Forstall and Federighi, were both just reporting up rather than reporting to

00:12:13   Bertrand. I'm not sure. It seems to me that Craig Federighi basically has this

00:12:17   role now, the Bertrand role, which is in charge of all software. But anyway, I

00:12:24   I like Bertrand. Some sources tell me that the year after Bertrand left Apple, or the year Bertrand left Apple, he was seen having lunch with John Syracuse at WWDC.

00:12:36   Owe to be a fly on the wall.

00:12:38   Oh really?

00:12:40   Yeah, I think, I don't know, I mean they may just have had a friendly lunch, but I thought that was funny that it's like the guy who's been in charge of OS X development essentially since close to the beginning.

00:12:51   having a chat with John about OS X would have been a fascinating thing.

00:12:58   I don't know if that's actually true, but that's what I heard, is that they had a lunch together.

00:13:03   I like to assume that that was John debriefing Bertrand and thanking him for his

00:13:09   lethal cell work inside of Apple.

00:13:12   I like to imagine that it was Bertrand saying, in his French accent, "John, you were so right!"

00:13:18   right? I would look that was more Russian. Anyway, I don't do accents and I like to imagine that you

00:13:24   were so right about everything, Jon. We listen to you. Except for the file system thing you were

00:13:30   wrong about that. Something like that. Then Jon just throws his fork down and says this

00:13:33   lunch is over and storms. That's my Jon Sierkius of Bertrand-Soleil fan fiction.

00:13:39   Maybe Joe Steele can write a screenplay about that. Do you remember the the famed Eric Schmidt

00:13:45   Steve Jobs lunch meeting thing. Do you remember that when they were sitting

00:13:49   outside of a coffee shop? Oh yeah, yeah, I remember and there were pictures of them

00:13:52   sitting there. You've just created a new one of those. Yeah, Jobs and Schmidt

00:13:55   were probably like talking about how they weren't gonna hire anybody and

00:13:58   they were gonna make everybody's suppress all the wages in Silicon Valley.

00:14:01   Something like that. Yeah, just little things. Yeah, anyway, so that's that's

00:14:08   that's that one. Speaking of Joe Steele, he wrote in asking about automation

00:14:14   scripts and things that have helped us do work. If we could detail some of those,

00:14:19   he linked to a Dr. Drang post on Dr. Drang's site about this sorting script

00:14:26   that he built to sort of manually to automated sort of... he was doing wind

00:14:33   directions I think and he got the directions wrong and then he wanted to

00:14:36   write a script to correct himself rather than just correct it manually, which I

00:14:39   totally understand because the fear there is if you write a script to do it

00:14:43   it, then it will do apply the same rules to what you've done on every line, and it will

00:14:49   either be completely wrong or completely right. Whereas if you do it by hand, you may get

00:14:53   some of them wrong. And that's scary, because then you've got some of your list items are

00:14:58   incorrect. And it's fascinating because you do get the sense sometimes with Dr. Drang,

00:15:03   who is a brilliant guy, that, you know, he does like writing his scripts. And there is

00:15:09   that question of like, have you fallen down the rabbit hole at some point and spent too

00:15:12   much time writing a script. I think there's an XKCD cartoon. There is for everything,

00:15:17   right, about this. The chart of how much time you save and then how much time you spend

00:15:23   building the tool to automate the thing that is supposedly saving you time. I don't know

00:15:28   if you do any automation stuff. I can say, for me, you know, in Macworld I had a lot

00:15:33   of scripts in BBEdit that automated a whole bunch of stuff. Before that I actually had,

00:15:37   When we were using this home built CMS for the TV website

00:15:41   that Greg Noss wrote,

00:15:42   I had some scripts that were basically like

00:15:46   made BB edit into a blog posting tool.

00:15:48   I would run the script and it would post the story,

00:15:51   which was pretty great at that time

00:15:53   when there were no blog posting tools to do that.

00:15:55   These days I've got some automator stuff

00:15:57   for uploading images and to six colors

00:16:00   and resizing them and things.

00:16:02   And I posted about that and uploading podcasts

00:16:05   to the incomparable.

00:16:08   So I've got some,

00:16:09   and then the other one that really saves me a lot of time,

00:16:12   I've got a lot of little scripts in BBEdit

00:16:13   that just do quick search and replaces in a sequence.

00:16:17   And I put some time into that

00:16:20   because I feel like over time it saves me a huge amount

00:16:23   just to, if I'm saving a fraction of a second,

00:16:27   but I use it a thousand times,

00:16:28   then I'm actually saving appreciable amounts of time

00:16:31   and not breaking my concentration.

00:16:33   And most of those are grep patterns.

00:16:37   They're pattern matching regular expressions,

00:16:40   and those take some time to build sometimes too.

00:16:43   But when they work, again,

00:16:44   you can save a whole lot of time.

00:16:45   And like Dr. Drang's example, it's consistent.

00:16:48   You can tell if it worked or not

00:16:50   because either it works or it doesn't

00:16:53   rather than it being something that you update by hand

00:16:55   and it turns out that you made mistakes

00:16:57   on 5% of the things you were trying to update.

00:17:01   I have very little experience with Automator.

00:17:06   I've used it a few times to build actions

00:17:08   to like bulk rename a file or something.

00:17:11   But now anything like that on my Mac, I use Hazel for.

00:17:16   So I only have a few Hazel actions.

00:17:19   I have one that goes through and categorizes

00:17:23   all of the photos that I upload to Dropbox

00:17:26   that I kind of stole and Frankenstein from Federico.

00:17:30   I'll find that and put that in the show notes as well where he explains his photo

00:17:35   automation workflow. And I also have one that just does some stuff. So for

00:17:41   example, all the calls that we have here and all the Skype calls I have and shows that I

00:17:45   have, CoreRecorder automatically records them. And I have Hazel go in and clear

00:17:51   old ones out after a certain amount of time.

00:17:54   Yeah, I just go in and say, "Oh my god, there are a lot in here," and delete them every now and then.

00:17:59   But I mean Dan Morin on clockwise we asked this question and Dan Morin said most of the automation he uses was written by me

00:18:05   So I do I have been somebody who sort of like pushes the stuff on others and that's how I felt on

00:18:11   Mac world was I was automating stuff for me

00:18:14   But I was also then

00:18:15   Passing that around and saying you could use this too and save time and it's already built

00:18:19   So if they were writing and markdown and BB edit they could use the tools or not

00:18:22   But they were there for them and and that's mostly what it is. I don't I'm not a

00:18:28   You know, Dr. Draring is a shell scripter and he's got these amazing scripting skills that I do not have.

00:18:35   But I do have those moments where I think, like I said,

00:18:37   uploading images to six colors. I did that for a couple of weeks where I was opening every image, resizing it twice,

00:18:44   saving it out twice, and then uploading the file.

00:18:47   And then opening my template of like what the

00:18:51   HTML was to place that in the document and then putting in the file name and all that. And now I have a script that

00:18:58   automatically resizes them, automatically uploads them,

00:19:00   and puts the HTML for those file names on the clipboard,

00:19:03   so I can just paste it into my text editor.

00:19:06   That's better. (laughs)

00:19:08   And although it's not perfect and I need to make some,

00:19:10   I've actually been thinking I need to tweak this,

00:19:13   it's been great to have that,

00:19:15   and that saved me a lot of time.

00:19:17   So that's the kind of stuff that I end up automating.

00:19:20   I do try very hard to recognize that,

00:19:22   I try not to fall into the bottomless pit.

00:19:27   I try to think like how much effort am I gonna be able

00:19:29   to put into this and what am I gonna get out of it?

00:19:32   And I try to be pretty, I'm okay with doing some tasks

00:19:35   if they're not too repetitive,

00:19:37   if the alternative is having to spend hours

00:19:40   trying to automate something 'cause that's no good.

00:19:43   But that six colors image uploader thing, that was great.

00:19:46   That took me a couple hours,

00:19:47   but that has reduced the friction

00:19:50   in posting stories to the site.

00:19:52   And that whether I've netted that time back yet or not,

00:19:56   I feel like it's worth it because now when I'm done with the story, the story is done.

00:20:02   Instead of when I'm done with the story now, I have to go through these 10 steps in order

00:20:05   to get the story live because that's no fun.

00:20:07   So sometimes I wonder if it's better to be in a world like in my mind where I know how

00:20:16   to do these things and then have, you know, then have like the pain of I need to tighten

00:20:21   this up or to be in the world that I'm in where I don't identify the situations that

00:20:27   could probably be scripted because I'm unsure of some of the power that these things have.

00:20:32   And I wonder what's the better place to be in? Like not scripting things and just doing

00:20:37   it as it is or scripting them and then feeling like, "Oh, maybe I need to tighten this up

00:20:42   or something like that." I don't know what the worst trade-off is, you know?

00:20:46   No.

00:20:47   Because I have kind of blissful ignorance.

00:20:50   I hate, this is true, this is true,

00:20:54   I mean, what I hate is I hate repetitive tasks.

00:20:57   There's that moment, whether you know how to do scripting

00:21:00   or regular expressions or anything,

00:21:02   there's that moment where you're looking at a text file

00:21:07   or an Excel file or something like that and thinking,

00:21:10   oh my God, I just need to go through this line by line

00:21:13   and make one change to every single thing in here.

00:21:15   And that's that moment where you say to yourself,

00:21:18   this is a computer,

00:21:19   shouldn't the computer be able to do this for me?

00:21:22   The stupid task that is just gonna take me

00:21:24   half an hour of clicking and occasionally typing,

00:21:28   there's gotta be a better way.

00:21:30   And the next step is I have some ways

00:21:34   and maybe one of them is better,

00:21:35   and if it is, I'm gonna use that.

00:21:37   And that's great when that happens,

00:21:40   but I think that moment happens regardless.

00:21:42   I mean, I think there's a moment

00:21:44   where you're sitting there clicking for 30 minutes

00:21:46   where you've gotta be thinking to yourself,

00:21:48   all I'm doing is sitting here clicking

00:21:49   and I'm using this powerful computer,

00:21:52   surely there is some way, and maybe I don't know it,

00:21:55   but surely there is some way to reduce this friction

00:21:57   or not waste myself with this stupid task that I have.

00:22:02   And that happens to me a lot.

00:22:04   I have a lot of things that work like that,

00:22:08   that I end up pasting text into BBEdit

00:22:11   and running a regular expression or exporting something

00:22:13   and into a tab delimited text file

00:22:16   and bringing it into Excel and sorting it

00:22:18   and then putting it back out and lots of stuff like that.

00:22:20   But that does happen.

00:22:22   So I think it does happen on a certain level to everybody.

00:22:26   And the difficulty is if you don't have any tools to use

00:22:30   to get yourself out of that predicament,

00:22:35   then you just feel even worse

00:22:37   because you know this is stupid.

00:22:39   There's gotta be a better way, but you don't know it.

00:22:41   And so you just have to do the work.

00:22:43   - Yeah, this is going on way too long now.

00:22:47   - Thanks Joe Steele.

00:22:48   - I know, I feel like, I just had something else

00:22:51   that I wanted, oh yeah, well I think part for me

00:22:53   is like a lot of the repetitive tasks that I have,

00:22:56   I can't automate, like the audio editing stuff.

00:23:00   So going in and doing a lot of that,

00:23:02   some of it can be, but a lot of it,

00:23:04   the majority of it, can't be automated.

00:23:07   There's nothing I can do about it.

00:23:08   So maybe I just have a higher threshold,

00:23:11   so I don't even think about it

00:23:12   because it's not something that I worry about, you know?

00:23:17   I don't know. I don't know.

00:23:18   - I don't know.

00:23:20   Well, anyway, that's our,

00:23:21   I guess that's our automation vertical.

00:23:23   I have one more bit of listener follow-up,

00:23:26   which is listener Andy, who said,

00:23:29   "Show17, we mentioned those sort of dictionary passwords

00:23:34   for something like 1Password that are easy to remember

00:23:37   because they're all real words,

00:23:38   but they're unrelated words.

00:23:40   And XKCD obviously had a cartoon about this

00:23:43   'cause XKCD has a cartoon about everything.

00:23:46   But Andy sent a link in that we'll put in the show notes

00:23:48   to a little tool that uses the XKCD method

00:23:53   to randomly pick four words.

00:23:57   And you can just hit reload until you find something

00:23:59   that pleases you and you can set the number of words

00:24:02   and all of that.

00:24:03   And I just went there and I got

00:24:04   Paddington Carla Guildford Films.

00:24:07   - Oh, there's lots of beautiful British words in there.

00:24:10   - I know, how about that?

00:24:12   - Paddington and Guilford, S. Guilford by the way.

00:24:14   - Underwater passports, living programs.

00:24:18   I think that's pretty good too.

00:24:19   Anyway, so thank you to listener Andy,

00:24:22   and we'll put that link in the show notes.

00:24:23   That's a, if you want a little tool to help you come up

00:24:25   with a memorable, but not really guessable password,

00:24:30   you can give that a try.

00:24:31   - It's perfect.

00:24:32   Thank you, Andy.

00:24:33   - Thank you, Andy.

00:24:34   - You're a true upgrade in.

00:24:35   - Mm-hmm.

00:24:36   And a good friend.

00:24:39   - Speaking of friends, Myke.

00:24:41   - Beautiful, beautiful.

00:24:42   Is a segue really a segue if you acknowledge it?

00:24:45   I don't know.

00:24:46   Kickstart your new year and challenge yourself

00:24:48   to learn something new with a free 10-day trial to lynda.com.

00:24:52   They are helping support this week's episode of Upgrade.

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00:25:19   hobby that you want to try out and you're not sure where to start, or maybe

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00:25:49   Maybe you want to learn a little bit about Swift.

00:25:51   They have Swift Essential Training in there, iOS App Development Training too if you're

00:25:55   looking to build an app.

00:25:56   But maybe you want to learn a little bit more about marketing.

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00:26:02   to learn a little bit more about marketing so you can help that get noticed.

00:26:06   Linda have courses to help you plan with marketing plans and also how to use the

00:26:11   tools out there to get the word out about your business and this can be from

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00:26:28   yourself something good for 2015 and sign up for a free 10-day trial to

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00:26:36   Go ahead, I challenge you to learn something new in 2015.

00:26:39   Thank you so much to lynda.com for supporting this show

00:26:42   and all of Relay FM.

00:26:44   - Yay.

00:26:45   - So we have a little bit more follow up,

00:26:49   but this is a verticalized follow up.

00:26:51   - Yes, this is follow up from other podcasts,

00:26:53   which I thought I would do because I have opinions

00:26:55   and would like to share them.

00:26:57   So this may be particularly exciting for people

00:26:59   who listen to other podcasts

00:27:01   and maybe have 200 hours of saved things and overcast and maybe not.

00:27:05   I wanted to mention, so we talked about Mark Armand's piece last week which he had just posted

00:27:12   and then since then he made some edits to it and he said he did a post saying that he kind of

00:27:17   regretted posting it and ATP talked about it last week and I again I kind of assume that most people

00:27:26   who listen to this show probably also listen to accidental tech podcasts so I don't want to really

00:27:29   go over everything there. I liked the fact that, I mean, I was listening to it live. I was in the

00:27:36   chat room. I was making dinner and listening to ATP, which is actually a lot of fun. And I don't

00:27:42   know, I feel bad for Marco. I think they, you know, clearly the story is that he dashed it off

00:27:48   and didn't expect it to get noticed. And the, you know, by a massive audience. And the reality

00:27:55   of writing something on the internet and putting it out there is that any piece you write could be

00:27:59   be that piece and you kind of need to be prepared for that. And I think Marco's

00:28:04   take may include the idea that he's not willing to do that much diligence and so

00:28:10   he's just gonna be more reluctant to say things on his blog, which I think is

00:28:13   unfortunate. I think everybody had a good laugh about the fact that

00:28:17   those guys have been very critical of the same issue in the podcast for ages

00:28:22   and nobody noticed because nobody listens to podcasts who writes those

00:28:25   stories. They don't do that. We don't yet have somebody who's the truth squad who's

00:28:30   doing transcripts of every podcast and then quoting those things on websites. And so,

00:28:36   you know, you can bury opinions in podcasts like this one that might be more problematic

00:28:42   if you just wrote a headline and, you know, a few hundred words on the website. And I

00:28:47   think that's just the world we live in. But I like their discussion about software stability.

00:28:53   I come back to what we said last week as well,

00:28:55   which is we don't know all the details

00:28:57   and we don't know what all that's going in there.

00:28:59   There was also a nice piece that I saw linked to from,

00:29:04   well, Daring Fireball linked to it,

00:29:05   and I saw it on Twitter as well,

00:29:07   from Ashley Nelson Hornstein,

00:29:11   who works at Dropbox, but used to work at Apple.

00:29:16   And I thought it was encouraging

00:29:18   'cause she was basically saying,

00:29:19   I know a ton of smart people who work there and I think they have noticed this problem

00:29:27   and are moving to make the proper adjustments and we just haven't seen the results yet.

00:29:31   And that's encouraging, I think.

00:29:34   Yeah, that's like via the horse's mouth, you know.

00:29:37   I think you can, because obviously Apple can't, well not can't, Apple won't address it, like

00:29:44   publicly, you know, in the media. So at least if we hear from people that either A) work

00:29:51   there or B) have and like or you know have seen this stuff, that's a good thing.

00:29:57   Yeah. Yeah, but we, you know, we're on the outside. And this is something I tried to

00:30:02   say last week and that I think it's worth repeating, which is a lot of what happens

00:30:09   the, especially people who write about Apple a lot in that sphere, a lot of what happens

00:30:15   is us waving our arms to say, "Do you guys know that this is a problem? Do you think

00:30:21   that this is a problem? Are you aware that this is happening?" And then we just kind

00:30:25   of have to hope that, you know, maybe something good happens. But I don't feel, as somebody

00:30:32   who is part of this sphere, I don't feel like I can write something and get results at Apple.

00:30:40   I feel like I can write something that somebody at Apple might notice and they might use it

00:30:48   as part of their thought process, but they might just as easily never see it or just

00:30:52   look at it and go, "Nope, he doesn't know what's really going on on the inside here."

00:30:56   And so I feel like all we can do is say, "Hey, we think this is an issue, do you?" and hope

00:31:00   that they do if, you know, we think it's a problem, we hope that they think it's a problem,

00:31:05   and we hope that they are working on it. And that's all we can do. And with Apple, you

00:31:10   literally won't know until the situation gets better or they make a nod toward it at WWDC

00:31:17   or something like that. So that's just, that's where we are. So that's my, I just wanted

00:31:21   to touch back on that and say that I liked the ATP discussion of it. I think, I actually

00:31:25   think there were two interesting discussions to be had about it, one being about the Apple

00:31:31   and software stability in general, and one being about the funny media world we live

00:31:35   in where Marco's piece got picked up, and how you end up writing defensively sometimes

00:31:42   because you're aware of the scrutiny that's placed on you as a writer, and how I think

00:31:47   Marco doesn't like to think that way. I don't want to say he wasn't aware of it, because

00:31:52   I think he's aware of it on one level, but I think he just doesn't want to think that

00:31:55   I think he wants to be able to write the stuff that he wants to write and the difficulty is that some of his stuff

00:32:00   Is a little provocative and some of it sometimes he you know

00:32:03   he will write phrases that are a little bit too far and not more incendiary than maybe he actually intends and

00:32:10   the difficulty is he likes writing those pieces and he's now in a

00:32:14   position of visibility where it's very difficult for him to write those pieces because people will

00:32:20   quote him and use his words to further their

00:32:23   their take on the issue, even if Marco doesn't share

00:32:26   where they're coming from and they'll appropriate his words and you just you know

00:32:31   Yeah, that kind of sucks that you can't do what you like to do before but that's just how it is

00:32:36   that's like, you know, I'm sure George Clooney would like to

00:32:39   Go into his local 7-eleven and buy a Slurpee like he did when he was 14, but he can't he just can't

00:32:47   So that's just that's life. That's life in the big city

00:32:50   And on the internet now, so I thought those were two interesting discussions

00:32:54   I also wanted to mention briefly John, Syracuse, who a couple weeks ago did an ATP

00:32:59   post credits segment

00:33:01   I think post music segment about he how he has like a thousand windows on his screen a

00:33:06   Million windows an infinite number of windows spawning. There's a new one spawning every 30 seconds forever

00:33:12   And he never closes any of them

00:33:13   I exaggerate a little bit, but I wanted to talk about that briefly only because I thought it was

00:33:19   fascinating. And I thought it was a good reminder that none of us uses our computer like anyone

00:33:25   else. We all are special little quirky snowflakes when it comes to how we use our computers. And

00:33:33   also many people on the internet are very judgmental about this. I can't believe you

00:33:36   don't do it the way I do it. And the answer is nobody does it the way you do it because we all

00:33:40   all do it differently. But it struck me like John having all these windows open, that I

00:33:47   am a minimal window open person. I'm not a no windows open person, but I try to keep

00:33:53   it small. I only have web browser windows open when I'm actively using them, and even

00:33:58   then I will often hide Safari or hide some windows because I don't want a thousand windows

00:34:02   open. I very rarely have more than about eight windows open, and I very rarely have more

00:34:07   than about five things in a particular browser tab. And I was curious, Myke, what your window

00:34:14   situation is.

00:34:15   Okay, so, I, for context, I use a 13-inch Retina MacBook Pro, okay? So my main desktop

00:34:25   has one, two, three, four, five, let's say five on average, apps open that all have a

00:34:31   single window, Tweetbot, OmniFocus, Slack, Lingo, and Messages. So they're always there

00:34:37   on home screen one. I have a second home screen, like a desktop sorry, look at me

00:34:42   iOS generation, I have a second desktop which at the moment has Byword and On

00:34:49   the Outliner open for something that I'm working on, a little project. I don't

00:34:53   always have this but I probably will have this for the foreseeable future.

00:34:56   Then everything else I use full screen apps. So I have two Chrome windows in

00:35:02   fullscreen. I have Mailbox and Evernote as well and they they occupy fullscreen.

00:35:08   I probably have about 10 or 15 tabs in window number one on Chrome and then

00:35:17   about the same in window two. Window two is pretty much completely Google Drive

00:35:23   and then a couple of Wikipedia articles for some research for a show outline.

00:35:30   And then in window one is all of the stuff that I browse on a daily basis and

00:35:37   or some things that I want to come back to later. I do like John I keep some tabs

00:35:41   open for things that I want to get to. But like that's that's good to hear I

00:35:46   don't do full screen anything. I don't. I don't use faces. You do have a huge computer though as well.

00:35:53   Like what about on the 11 inch, you must on the 11 inch?

00:35:56   - No.

00:35:56   - What?

00:35:57   - Ah, how do you?

00:35:58   - No, I don't, I don't, and I, you know,

00:36:02   one of the reasons why I've tried that,

00:36:03   sometimes I will do that with logic on the 11 inch

00:36:06   because I need every last little bit of space.

00:36:09   But the problem is then something happens

00:36:12   and it flies out of full screen or it slides your app away

00:36:15   because something else is going on in the computer.

00:36:17   And I have some, I don't know,

00:36:19   I have some problems with what happens

00:36:23   when things are sliding in and out

00:36:25   and you're over, now I'm over in this space

00:36:28   and now I'm back over here and switching between apps.

00:36:32   Having an app be the size of the screen

00:36:35   and yet not in full screen mode works okay for me

00:36:39   a lot of the time.

00:36:40   So I do a lot of that.

00:36:41   So like right now I've got the Skype window open

00:36:43   in the background because we're doing a Skype call

00:36:45   but that's just kind of floating there.

00:36:46   I have a web browser window open,

00:36:49   a single one with three tabs,

00:36:51   and it's our topic list and the two friend ad reads

00:36:55   that are coming up.

00:36:56   I have my reminders window open

00:36:58   because I just put a couple of story ideas into it.

00:37:01   And I've got my IRC window open

00:37:03   for the chat room for the show.

00:37:05   And that's it, that's it.

00:37:06   I don't have any other like,

00:37:08   I don't use open windows as to-do lists most of the time.

00:37:13   And if I was working on a story right now,

00:37:16   it would be open in BVEdit and maybe hidden.

00:37:18   I might've just hidden BVEdit just to get it out of the way

00:37:20   because I'm not working on that right now.

00:37:22   I'm working on the show.

00:37:23   And it's also very rare that I keep web browser windows open

00:37:26   because there's an article I want to read,

00:37:28   which is something John talked about.

00:37:30   Generally, I will just put them in Instapaper.

00:37:33   If I'm not gonna read it right now,

00:37:36   I'll just put it in Instapaper and I'll read it later

00:37:38   and close the window.

00:37:40   I don't know.

00:37:41   See, everybody's different.

00:37:43   - Everybody is a special interface snowflake.

00:37:47   That's just how it is.

00:37:48   - Yeah, indeed.

00:37:52   I am very surprised that you don't use any full screen apps

00:37:55   on an 11 inch MacBook Air though.

00:37:57   That's interesting. - I've tried.

00:38:00   I've tried.

00:38:01   I've tried.

00:38:02   There's something about the, yeah,

00:38:04   there's just something about the way

00:38:06   that you switch between them

00:38:07   that I end up wanting to go back.

00:38:09   I just so often, like logic,

00:38:12   When I'm editing, I can be in full screen mode,

00:38:14   but then there's that moment when I need to drag

00:38:15   an audio file in from the finder.

00:38:17   And I can't be in full screen mode to do that.

00:38:19   So then I have to switch out of full screen mode

00:38:21   and then position the window and drag it and all of that.

00:38:23   And it just, you know, I use multiple apps a lot for things.

00:38:28   And in full screen mode, you can't, you're just using one.

00:38:32   - Yeah, see I set up separate desktops as well though,

00:38:34   right, to try them. - Oh my God, yeah.

00:38:36   I've tried that too and it just never works for me.

00:38:39   I end up going back to, it's very rare that I have two

00:38:43   like totally different sets of windows that interact

00:38:46   with each other and not with anything else.

00:38:48   I, you know, occasionally I have done that for a project,

00:38:53   but in the end I end up just going back to,

00:38:55   I think it's just because I, you know,

00:38:57   started to use a Mac in an era when you didn't do that,

00:39:00   when you just did your own window management

00:39:01   and you had one space and that was it.

00:39:03   And I think that that is a lot of it too.

00:39:09   Yeah, anyway, so there's some window follow up for somebody else's show.

00:39:12   And then I wanted, I have a couple items for, um, uh, other podcasts to say that

00:39:18   we talked about hello, internet and CGP gray last week, I just wanted to mention,

00:39:22   um, that I just realized that that video that was great, that I watched about how

00:39:27   robots are going to take over everything for humans and nobody really knows what

00:39:30   humans are going to be good for anymore is a CGP, P gray video.

00:39:33   And I think that was the first one of his that I, that I saw.

00:39:36   That's very outside of his usual style.

00:39:39   It's like a 15 minute video with lots of imagery and stock video and stuff like that.

00:39:45   Not so many cartoons, yeah.

00:39:46   Yeah, it's very different but it's incredible.

00:39:48   And of course it will be in the show notes which are at relay.fm/upgrades/18.

00:39:53   Yeah.

00:39:55   So I wanted to throw that out there.

00:39:57   Also mention that the latest episode of the Flophouse is a live episode

00:40:02   that they did in front of an audience and it's awesome.

00:40:04   I'm about 20 minutes in and it's amazing.

00:40:08   I thought that it's the live version and they're talking about the new the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie and as they put it the old

00:40:14   Not the old one and then there's an extended riff about what the 1950s Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle movie might have been

00:40:22   But it's it's pretty funny

00:40:24   And I remember I was at Comic Con last summer and I was actually in line for I was in line for a room

00:40:30   That was currently doing a panel about the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie

00:40:35   And so I was there for the what was coming next

00:40:38   but I was in the line with some of the people who hadn't yet gotten in who were hoping to sort of get into the

00:40:43   last 20 minutes of the Ninja Turtles session and

00:40:45   I was fascinated by that because I was too old to ever be into I remember

00:40:50   What Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles the comic book was parodying which is all of the ninjas that were in Marvel Comics in the 80s?

00:40:57   Like Frank all Frank Miller's daredevil stuff

00:40:59   It's like like as they say on the on the podcast on the flophouse

00:41:03   Like a hundred ninjas appear and it turns out that a hundred ninjas are much less dangerous than one ninja one ninja will kill you

00:41:09   100 ninjas you can fight him off. It's fine

00:41:11   Yeah, do one it's one at a time and the that was totally I mean as much as I love some of those comics from the

00:41:20   80s

00:41:21   Ninjas was a really really overused trope that the tick the comic book version of the tick did a some great jokes

00:41:28   They had an issue called "Night of a Million Kajillion Ninjas" that was a parody of those Daredevil comics.

00:41:34   And "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" was a... that was the joke.

00:41:37   The X-Men were big, so that was the mutant, and the Teen Titans, and the Teenage Mutant, and then the ninjas from the...

00:41:42   That was the joke.

00:41:43   So I'm old enough to remember what the joke was about, but I wasn't a kid who's, you know, formative years watching cartoons

00:41:50   coincided with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

00:41:52   So for me, standing in that line at Comic-Con, I was just baffled.

00:41:55   I'm like, "Really? They're remaking Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?

00:42:00   You know, really?" And I just didn't get it, so...

00:42:02   I was that generation.

00:42:04   Yeah, I know.

00:42:05   I was the Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles as well, they were called.

00:42:10   Was it "hero"?

00:42:11   I feel like, yeah.

00:42:14   Ah, well, it may have been, you know, like in the UK, they may have changed some things that,

00:42:18   you know, like, "Oh, ninjas are bad and they throw, you know, throwing stars and they're

00:42:24   they're dangerous and children will be, you know, poking their eyes out with

00:42:28   ninja stars so we're gonna say hero turtles. In Europe they were known as the

00:42:33   Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles. That's weird. Which is what I'm used to because there

00:42:37   was a TV show and the song used to go "Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles" anyway like that and I was

00:42:44   of that generation but had absolutely zero interest in a Michael Bay produced

00:42:49   anything. Yeah, it seems like a bad idea.

00:42:53   Yeah. Yes, "Local censorship policies," says Wikipedia, "deem the word 'ninja' to have

00:42:58   excessively violent connotations for a children's program."

00:43:02   So they changed it to "heroes." And the lyrics in the song were changed

00:43:09   as well, because ninjas--well, you missed the whole ninja joke then.

00:43:12   Anyway, that's a Flop House episode. I'm excited that they did a live episode.

00:43:17   And I had one more podcast thing, which was when we talked in the upgrade is about podcasts we liked.

00:43:22   I don't think I mentioned the bugle and I wanted to mention the bugle because that is one of my

00:43:25   other very favorite podcasts. And it's a little more irregular now that John Oliver has his own

00:43:30   TV show on HBO, but it's it's John Oliver and Andy Zaltzman, two British comedians, one in New York

00:43:36   and one in London. And they comment seems to be every other week now on news events with lots of

00:43:45   comedy and I enjoy it greatly and that's another really great podcast to listen to. So The Bugle,

00:43:51   check it out. You listen to The Bugle? Have you heard of The Bugle? Heard of it, never listened to

00:43:56   it. Yeah, it's pretty funny. I fear that it's going to fade away now that John Oliver has to

00:44:01   devote all of his new satire to his own TV show that he makes his whole career on instead of this

00:44:08   dumb podcast that he does. But it is a huge amount of fun and has coined many interesting

00:44:16   phrases that I cannot say on this podcast because they would have to be bleeped out.

00:44:21   But actually one of the things I like about the Bugle is they bleep out a couple of words

00:44:26   that John Oliver's HBO show doesn't because it's HBO and they don't need to. And I actually

00:44:30   think they're funny or bleeped. I think it's funnier to bleep out words and then you know

00:44:34   what the words are rather than to just leave them in.

00:44:36   but. Oh yeah I definitely think that like Arrested Development is so much funnier.

00:44:42   You know what they're saying. Yeah or when they like kind of then they kind of

00:44:46   like weirdly obscure the mouth with like somebody's shoulder I love that I just

00:44:50   think that is fantastic. Yeah. So we're out of the follow-up. We we have escaped

00:44:58   the tunnel of follow-up now well I mean that was sort of meta follow-up follow

00:45:01   that was sort of like Jason wants to talk about things that are not this

00:45:04   podcast and that was, but our other podcasts. But we're done with it.

00:45:08   We still have some really interesting topics, but I think considering follow-up is completely

00:45:13   over, we should put a stick in the ground and thank a friend.

00:45:15   Okay, thank a friend, not a stick. Don't thank the stick, thank the friend. The friend I'm

00:45:22   going to thank right now is Stamps.com. We talked about them last week. Some very exciting

00:45:26   news on the Stamps.com front that I'll get to in a minute, but just to tell you about

00:45:31   Stamps.com a little bit. These days you can get pretty much anything you want on demand,

00:45:35   including this podcast. You are listening to this. We're recording this on for me Monday morning.

00:45:41   Who knows when you're listening? A night, in the day, in a car, on a bus, anywhere, you know,

00:45:47   you choose and you listen, you're listening when it's convenient for you to listen.

00:45:52   I say this in contrast to the post office, which has limited hours and a long line,

00:45:58   and it's really annoying to go there

00:46:00   and mail something out and I hate it.

00:46:02   There is nothing I hate, I discovered this about myself,

00:46:04   there's nothing I hate worse than shipping packages.

00:46:06   I hate it.

00:46:07   I just mailing things, I hate it.

00:46:08   I just hate it.

00:46:09   I would have things sit in my office at Macworld for months

00:46:11   because I did not want to ship them back.

00:46:13   This is the beauty of Stamps.com.

00:46:15   It brings pointing and clicking on something on the internet

00:46:19   together with mailing things

00:46:20   and now you can get postage on demand

00:46:22   and you don't have to deal with other human beings.

00:46:24   I love that.

00:46:26   So anything you can do at the post office,

00:46:27   you can do now right from your desk with Stamps.com.

00:46:29   You can buy and print official US postage, sorry Myke,

00:46:32   US postage for any letter or package

00:46:35   using your own computer and printer.

00:46:36   And unlike the post office, Stamps.com never closes.

00:46:39   It's open 24/7, just like your computer can be on

00:46:43   at any time, it's up to you, super convenient.

00:46:46   Now, I have now received my Stamps.com scale,

00:46:50   which will actually connect to my Mac via USB

00:46:53   and it will weigh packages and things.

00:46:55   And I actually used it.

00:46:57   I sent a little box with Apple's old,

00:47:02   is it the, was it the Magic Mouse or the Mighty Mouse?

00:47:06   The one with the little tiny ball on the top?

00:47:08   - I'm pretty sure that's the Mighty Mouse.

00:47:10   - That's the Mighty Mouse with the little tiny ball

00:47:12   on the little tiny track ball.

00:47:14   So I have one of those from an old computer

00:47:17   that was not being used.

00:47:18   And I saw on Twitter that Brianna Wu's husband, Frank,

00:47:22   who is near and dear to my heart, Frank is,

00:47:25   because he's the one in that relationship that likes,

00:47:27   like, you know, the original Star Trek

00:47:30   and doesn't like playing, like, super crazy video games.

00:47:33   And he's a lot like me.

00:47:35   And so I'm in there for him,

00:47:37   but he also uses this crazy mouse.

00:47:39   And I've been there where you love a piece

00:47:41   of outmoded technology and it's hard to find it.

00:47:43   And you're like, what's gonna happen

00:47:44   when my thing that I love is broken?

00:47:47   What am I gonna do?

00:47:48   And so I fell for him because his Mighty Mouse is dying.

00:47:53   So I got a box out of the garage here.

00:47:55   I got some bubble wrap.

00:47:56   I got the mouse, put it all together in the box,

00:47:58   went to stamps.com.

00:48:00   I weighed the box.

00:48:02   I printed out all the information,

00:48:06   the little barcodes and stuff,

00:48:07   and put that all on the box,

00:48:09   stuck it in my mailbox with the flag up

00:48:11   telling my letter carrier to take it away.

00:48:15   And magical, it all worked,

00:48:18   and the box is winning its way to the East Coast now

00:48:22   with that mouse inside for Frank.

00:48:23   And I didn't have to go to the post office,

00:48:25   I didn't have to wait in line.

00:48:27   It was delightful.

00:48:28   I haven't sent anything to you yet, Myke,

00:48:30   but that is gonna happen

00:48:31   because they also ship internationally.

00:48:32   But my first stamps.com moment was great

00:48:36   because I didn't talk to anybody.

00:48:38   I just printed things out and taped things down

00:48:40   and it was really nice.

00:48:42   So to our listeners, use promo code upgrade at stamps.com.

00:48:47   You will get a special offer.

00:48:48   There's a no risk trial

00:48:49   and there is a $110 bonus offer,

00:48:52   which includes a digital scale

00:48:53   and up to $55 in free postage.

00:48:57   So don't wait, go to Stamps.com.

00:48:59   Before you do anything else,

00:49:00   click on the microphone at the top of the homepage

00:49:02   and type in the word upgrade.

00:49:04   Stamps.com, click on the microphone and enter upgrade.

00:49:08   And thank you so much to Stamps.com

00:49:10   for sponsoring Upgrade and supporting our show

00:49:13   and letting me not have to go to the post office

00:49:15   to mail that weird mouse to Frank.

00:49:18   I love that you can just put packages in and put the little flag up and the mail delivery

00:49:25   recipient person picks it up and takes it. We have to go to post boxes.

00:49:29   He just took it away, yeah.

00:49:31   That's magical.

00:49:32   Mm-hmm. Amazing. All right. Other topics. What do you want to talk about? You want to

00:49:41   talk about all this chatter about the Mark Gurman report about the 12-inch MacBook Air?

00:49:45   A lot of people have talked about that. This is where our Monday recording schedule bites

00:49:50   us a little bit because I feel like this has been through the cycle a little bit. But I

00:49:54   did write a piece on Six Colors about it.

00:49:56   Yeah, this is one of the rare things where we got to speak about it on Connected before

00:50:03   we get to speak about it on this show, I think. But I do want to talk to you about it because

00:50:09   obviously we've had more time to think about it and I value your opinion in such things

00:50:14   as I know many people do, and you did write a great piece on the wonderful six colours.

00:50:22   Which colour did I write it in?

00:50:24   Blue.

00:50:25   In my mind, you wrote it in blue.

00:50:27   Okay, got it.

00:50:28   So, having some time to think over this and listen to what other people say and to kind

00:50:33   of to maybe reflect upon your own piece, do you think that... how much truth do you think

00:50:40   there could be in this rumour?

00:50:44   Well Mark Germin, his sources are good.

00:50:47   His track records are pretty good recently for these types of things, isn't it?

00:50:51   I think, and again, you never know, they may have seen something that is going to change,

00:51:00   they may rethink about it, those things happen.

00:51:03   Some of the wrong rumors are actually right at the time, but then they change, and what

00:51:09   comes out at the end is not what was reported and they say, "Haha, they got this wrong."

00:51:14   And sometimes that's not true. Sometimes that was an accurate report and then somebody,

00:51:18   you know, the product changed inside Apple. So I don't want to approach it as being like,

00:51:24   this is totally happening because there's a lot of time and anything can change. I will

00:51:28   say I do give Mark Gurman a lot of credit. He has made—his reports are generally quite

00:51:35   good. And so I think it's worth taking it seriously. And I think it's also worth

00:51:38   just having that—this report contains some information that's so wacky that I

00:51:43   think it's worth having the—just thinking about it and thinking about what

00:51:47   would this be if this was a thing. And some of the reaction to it was very much

00:51:51   like, "Oh, this is crazy. It's impossible. It's not gonna be like this." And I

00:51:54   didn't feel like that. I felt like, like, if we take this seriously, let's try to

00:51:57   walk through the process of why Apple would do these things. And having thought

00:52:02   about it for a little while, I definitely came to the conclusion that this product

00:52:07   as wacky as it is described by Mark Gurman is not unreasonable for Apple

00:52:14   to do. Now we can argue, I also don't want to say I'm defending the product and

00:52:19   think it's a great idea. It may or may not be a successful product, but it seems

00:52:23   to me totally like a product that Apple would make. If that makes sense.

00:52:28   Yeah it does and I guess a lot of the thinking is now like you know if you

00:52:33   look back to what the MacBook Air originally was right it was this

00:52:38   trailblazing device that did really weird things.

00:52:42   Yeah I had it and it was weird it had you could get with a hard drive that was

00:52:49   a little iPod hard drive was slow and awful or you could get with an SSD which

00:52:54   was even smaller than the I think was an 80 gig hard driver you could get a 64

00:52:59   gig SSD if you wanted the 64 gig SSD it was an extra thousand dollars and it had

00:53:07   one USB port on a little door that flipped down that was a USB port and a

00:53:11   headphone jack on a little door it had this processor there was a brand new

00:53:16   processor that Intel had had collaborated with Apple on that later

00:53:20   would be in other devices but Apple sort of drove Intel to build this low power

00:53:25   low heat kind of device and then the thermal stuff on on the original Air was

00:53:30   a disaster to the point where if it got too hot it turned off a processor core

00:53:34   and on the very slow two core processor in that system one when one of the cores

00:53:39   shut down you basically couldn't use the computer anymore like even moving the

00:53:43   mouse was got jerky. It was it was a as un-apple-like an experience as you could

00:53:50   possibly imagine to the point where I think I said this in the Six Colors

00:53:54   article it was a really great computer to use in a meat locker and a really bad

00:54:00   computer to use if you had a west-facing window in the afternoon because the

00:54:06   hotter it got the worse it you know you could eventually you could you had to

00:54:11   stop using it. I mean I would I would often take it to a place where there

00:54:17   wasn't sun just to continue working because I needed to be cooler.

00:54:22   Working outside on a hot day on it was not something I could do. So it was a

00:54:28   compromised computer but and it was weird in all these different ways the

00:54:31   fact that it only had the one USB port, had no optical drive, had that little

00:54:35   hard drive or the crazy SSD thing.

00:54:38   And yet, you know, that's what this Mark Gurman report

00:54:43   is sort of like.

00:54:44   It's like, it's weird, it breaks a lot of rules.

00:54:46   But the MacBook Air over the years has really evolved

00:54:50   into something that's a much more fully functional device.

00:54:52   It's no longer a weird system,

00:54:54   it's kind of a mainstream system.

00:54:55   Lots of people have MacBook Airs, lots of people use it.

00:54:58   It's the 899 entry point onto Apple's laptop lineup.

00:55:03   And it brings into question sort of like

00:55:05   what the point of the MacBook Pro is.

00:55:07   I mean, yeah, it's heavier and it's got retina

00:55:09   and it's more powerful, but they're not as far apart

00:55:13   as you might think and as Apple might want them to be.

00:55:17   And so that was the thought process I went through

00:55:19   is having a weird computer that drops a whole bunch

00:55:23   of things that we take for granted

00:55:24   and put some distance between it and the MacBook Pro

00:55:29   is a very Apple thing to do.

00:55:31   And in fact, it's what Apple did

00:55:33   with the original MacBook Air.

00:55:35   So why would they not potentially do it again?

00:55:39   And rechristen the Air as a thing

00:55:41   that is really about thinness and lightness

00:55:43   and not about being a full featured laptop

00:55:46   that's got all these power features

00:55:47   that everybody who's kind of like us expects in a laptop.

00:55:51   - Is this a MacBook Air?

00:55:54   Like this is what everyone's calling it.

00:55:56   - Yeah.

00:55:57   - But is this the MacBook Air?

00:55:58   Is it something else?

00:55:59   If it is a MacBook Air,

00:56:00   do the current MacBook Air has become something else?

00:56:02   - The way it's described is as a MacBook Air,

00:56:05   and I would say it seems like a MacBook Air

00:56:06   because it seems like it is being,

00:56:08   it is a device that is being solved

00:56:09   for as thin and light as possible.

00:56:11   Other features be damned.

00:56:12   The features that are most important in this product

00:56:15   are thin and light, right?

00:56:17   Weight and thinness are the things.

00:56:21   And again, we can argue about whether Apple should be

00:56:24   solving for those things, but let's just say they are

00:56:27   'cause that's sort of been the whole idea

00:56:29   behind the MacBook Air in general.

00:56:31   My gut feeling is they'll do what they did.

00:56:34   I mean, you can still buy a non-Retina MacBook Pro right now.

00:56:38   That's still in the product list.

00:56:40   So my gut feeling is that this product

00:56:43   ends up being there alongside

00:56:48   of existing MacBook Airs for a while,

00:56:50   whether it's the 11 and the 13 or just the 13.

00:56:52   Keeping the 11 around at 899 or even 799,

00:56:58   Apple does that a lot now. Apple does a lot of older models still hang around and you

00:57:02   can still buy them and they're cheaper. So some people are speculating that this is going

00:57:08   to be the cheap one. This is going to be Apple's cheap, you know, Chromebook competitor and

00:57:12   it's going to be $699. And I look at it and I think, eh, I think it's more likely that

00:57:16   they'll take the existing MacBook Airs, keep them in the product line and have them go

00:57:22   down in price. And that this will be, especially if it's a retina, that this is a higher end

00:57:26   device. This will cost more than the existing MacBook Airs do.

00:57:30   So you think they could bring the cost down to the current and this one will be higher anyway?

00:57:35   That's my... if Apple is consistent with what they've been doing the last couple

00:57:40   of years, when you never know they could change things up, that's my

00:57:45   guess. Apple seems to not be afraid to keep old tech around. Like I said, the

00:57:50   13-inch non-retina MacBook Pro is still available for sale to this day. That is

00:57:56   pretty wacky, but that's what it is. You can buy it for $10.99 right now.

00:58:02   So why not keep the existing Airs around? They are fully functional, they're not

00:58:08   going to be as thin and light and awesome as this new thing, but they're

00:58:14   very nice functional computers and Apple knows how to make them. They're already

00:58:18   designed, they're making them at volume, they can probably cut some price out of

00:58:23   them and still have a pretty good margin, would you not? That just seems like a better

00:58:30   move for me from Apple, and maybe I'm wrong. But to me, I have a hard time imagining that

00:58:36   Apple would make a brand new design, especially if it has retina, because I have a hard time

00:58:44   with them making any new design that doesn't have retina at this point. I just don't see

00:58:48   why they would bother investing in building a non-retina device. So at that point, the

00:58:53   most likely scenario is that the new thing from Apple costs, you know, $12.99 or something,

00:59:00   $11.99, and that the old things, the old MacBook Airs, stay the same or go down in price a

00:59:05   little bit. And that's consistent with the 5C, it's consistent with the old iPads that

00:59:11   are still being sold. You keep the old thing around, the margins on it are better than

00:59:15   they used to be when you introduced it, and you discount it and you keep that one around.

00:59:19   your new stuff, your hot new stuff, people want to pay for and you should, you know,

00:59:25   and also that your margins on it are going to be less to start. So for me, this feels

00:59:29   like a product that is going to go above the existing heirs and then the existing heirs

00:59:34   will eventually fade away because that seems to be Apple's stock and trade, you know, for

00:59:40   the last few years anyway.

00:59:43   So my next kind of line of inquiry is kind of, maybe the elephant in the room, I don't

00:59:52   know, but the weirdest part of all of it, which is the single USB 3.

00:59:57   Ah yeah.

00:59:59   So one, I mean, what do you think about this?

01:00:02   Is this possible?

01:00:03   Is this livable?

01:00:05   And the next, is this kind of saying that Thunderbolt is going the way of Firewire?

01:00:10   Well, yes.

01:00:12   I think it is and and I think maybe that's okay because

01:00:15   USB 3 is pretty good

01:00:19   And I'm not sure if Thunderbolt is really necessary given that this USB 3 can do a lot of the stuff that Thunderbolt does

01:00:25   And I'm not sure

01:00:27   Thunderbolt is better enough

01:00:29   to to beat USB 3 and the fact that Apple has been a participant in this USB C

01:00:34   Stuff makes you think you know, maybe there's there's more to this

01:00:39   I don't know, this is not to get back to accidental tech podcasts for a minute, but one of the

01:00:44   things those guys were doing that I think is a perfect reflection of people who listen

01:00:48   to podcasts or do podcasts about Apple tech, and that's, you know, me and you and everybody

01:00:53   listening to this, is we are not every user.

01:00:57   We are not necessarily even the target for a product like this.

01:01:00   So when Marco and John and Casey were talking about, like John, I think, was saying about,

01:01:05   well, you gotta put a USB key,

01:01:07   or you gotta attach a hard drive,

01:01:08   and then you've got a,

01:01:09   or an external wired mouse for clicking.

01:01:13   And I just sat there while I was making dinner,

01:01:15   thinking, no, no, no, no.

01:01:18   The answer, if you're Apple, if you think like Apple,

01:01:20   the answer is, well, if somebody really wants a mouse,

01:01:22   get a wireless mouse.

01:01:24   And a USB key, they're like, seriously, USB key?

01:01:28   Who uses that?

01:01:29   And if, yeah, okay,

01:01:30   if you have needs for external devices like that,

01:01:32   either this is not the computer for you,

01:01:34   or you will need some kind of a hub.

01:01:36   And I think this is the kind of product

01:01:38   that makes decisions like that and says,

01:01:40   "Look, most people in the future do not need

01:01:43   "those things attached to their computer.

01:01:46   "It's all wireless, so we're just going to,

01:01:49   "we're gonna make it harder for those people

01:01:51   "who need that level of convenience, but we don't care

01:01:53   "because we want this to be super simple and thin

01:01:56   "and light and wireless and only have one port."

01:01:58   So I think that sounds very Apple.

01:02:00   And we can argue about, again, this is not me saying

01:02:03   I think it's a perfect decision.

01:02:04   It's me saying I can totally see Apple making that decision.

01:02:07   So I do wonder if there's another part to this story

01:02:11   that Mark Gurman didn't report on.

01:02:13   And I sort of touched on it briefly in my story,

01:02:15   which is Apple might come out and say,

01:02:18   "Hey, there's only one port and it's for power.

01:02:21   So if you want to attach any peripheral to it,

01:02:23   you're gonna have to buy an accessory."

01:02:25   You know, so long suckers, jetpack, and they're out, right?

01:02:28   They could do that.

01:02:30   I tried to put jetpack in the story.

01:02:32   I was like, nobody's gonna understand this.

01:02:33   It's like a flop house joke.

01:02:34   Anyway, but I could see Apple saying,

01:02:39   this is revolutionary, nobody's done this before.

01:02:42   But it's not just the computer that's revolutionary,

01:02:45   the power plug is revolutionary

01:02:46   and we've got a breakaway magnetic thing

01:02:49   or the power plug is itself a hub.

01:02:52   And so when you're traveling,

01:02:53   you can plug devices into the little white plastic brick

01:02:58   and it'll connect to the computer and it'll charge.

01:03:00   And isn't that amazing that we've,

01:03:02   Apple's reinvented the power plug now,

01:03:05   or we've also got a $49 thing that you can put on your desk

01:03:09   and that you dock to and it takes in power

01:03:12   and attaches peripherals and then you just plug in

01:03:15   the one cable.

01:03:16   Isn't that amazing?

01:03:17   And it's only 49 or 79 or 99 or whatever it is.

01:03:21   I could totally see Apple telling those stories about,

01:03:23   we've got this amazing travel thing

01:03:26   that's right on the power plug

01:03:27   that lets you do some of this stuff.

01:03:28   And then we've got this amazing port or something

01:03:32   that you can put on your desk if you want,

01:03:34   or that'll be a third party thing.

01:03:35   I totally see that.

01:03:36   And yes, is this gonna be a computer that is not convenient

01:03:40   for somebody who always is plugging in USB devices?

01:03:44   Yeah, okay, yeah, sure.

01:03:46   But they don't care.

01:03:47   I mean, the iMac was really inconvenient

01:03:49   when it didn't have a floppy drive and they didn't care.

01:03:51   This is very Apple is what I'm saying.

01:03:53   And although we can debate whether it's good or not,

01:03:55   I don't think there's a strong argument

01:03:58   that Apple wouldn't do something like this.

01:04:00   This seems very much like the kind of attitude Apple often has when it's pushing into new

01:04:05   areas.

01:04:06   Like, "Look, it doesn't matter that you've got USB keys.

01:04:09   We're not going to let your USB keys be the thing that keeps us from making this product."

01:04:13   Because they may even be able to say internally, "We know that only two-tenths of our laptop

01:04:19   users ever do that."

01:04:21   Or one percent or five percent.

01:04:24   And at that point they say, "Well, the MacBook Pro is for you then.

01:04:27   You're a pro.

01:04:28   You've got lots of USB devices.

01:04:29   you care about that stuff, buy the MacBook Pro. This product isn't for you." Very Apple

01:04:34   in that way too, I think.

01:04:37   What about MagSafe?

01:04:39   I don't know. It depends on how hard—again, maybe there's a story there. Maybe they say,

01:04:44   "Well, actually, this is a little cable and it pops right out if you put any pressure

01:04:49   on it, so don't worry about it. It's this little tiny reversible thing. So we don't

01:04:52   even need the magnet anymore." Or maybe they say, "We've got an amazing magnetic latch

01:04:58   in the port that if there's enough force, it just pops it off. Or like I said, maybe

01:05:04   it's down the cable. Maybe the tripping point is down the cable and there's a magnetic something

01:05:12   or other at the little plastic box or somewhere along the line that pops off if there's force

01:05:18   attached. You know, then again, they could also explain that away. I am with John Syracuse

01:05:23   that point, by the way, which is it would be a shame to just kiss off MagSafe. It is

01:05:28   really nice that they have this thing that means my laptop isn't going to fall on the

01:05:31   floor when somebody trips on the cord, but they may have another story there that we

01:05:37   don't see in this report, because this report is just, you know, the report looks like it's

01:05:42   a complete thing with renders and all that, but chances are pretty good that what Mark

01:05:46   Germin really got was like a bulleted list of things that are in it, and lots of things

01:05:51   that might be in it or next to it that he didn't get aren't in that report. So it's

01:05:56   even though I think his report is probably accurate I don't know I don't necessarily

01:05:59   think it's complete. Right. Okay. I don't know. It's fascinating. I love I love thinking

01:06:07   about this because it makes you know before Apple says anything about it because you have

01:06:11   to play that game of would Apple do this and that's not the same game as do I want it.

01:06:16   I mean, I look at this report and I think,

01:06:19   would I want one of those?

01:06:21   And probably not, but just because I don't want it

01:06:26   doesn't mean Apple's not gonna do it.

01:06:27   And it doesn't mean that there isn't a market for it.

01:06:29   It just means that it's not for me.

01:06:31   And I think a lot of us can make that mistake of thinking,

01:06:33   oh, this doesn't fit my use case.

01:06:36   This isn't a kind of product that I would buy

01:06:38   and writes it off when in fact,

01:06:40   you have to think of people who are not you,

01:06:43   who might actually like having that thinner, lighter,

01:06:47   you know, the renders are kind of amazing.

01:06:50   I mean, it would be a crazy, crazy thin laptop.

01:06:54   We didn't even get to, I didn't even mention that.

01:06:55   The rumor also says it's not gonna have

01:06:57   a clicking track pad.

01:06:58   You're gonna have to tap on it.

01:06:59   And I hate that.

01:07:00   I never use tap to click, but you know, that's me.

01:07:05   For me, don't buy it basically.

01:07:09   All right, fair enough.

01:07:10   Maybe I won't buy it.

01:07:11   Or maybe they'll have a story that is better

01:07:13   than just tap to click that makes it better than just sort

01:07:18   of no feedback tapping in order to get a mouse click.

01:07:21   We'll see if it's real.

01:07:22   Well, there we go.

01:07:28   You OK, Myke?

01:07:29   Yeah, I'm fine.

01:07:30   I don't know.

01:07:31   I'm just not sure how I feel about it.

01:07:34   It's like the one thing that I keep trying to remember

01:07:39   and to get--

01:07:40   not necessarily to get my head around,

01:07:41   but just to force upon myself is like,

01:07:45   this has been done so many times,

01:07:47   Apple have done this type of thing so many times,

01:07:50   where they're just like, we're removing that thing

01:07:52   that you think that you need, just get used to it.

01:07:57   Like, oh, we're taking away the hard drive,

01:07:59   not the hard drive, we're taking away this optical drive,

01:08:03   before that, we're taking away a floppy drive,

01:08:05   and you kind of just, maybe this is the one,

01:08:08   this is just the next one,

01:08:09   which is like we're taking away everything.

01:08:12   And maybe that's it.

01:08:14   You know, I don't know.

01:08:15   But it's just interesting to me.

01:08:18   And I guess what you would expect maybe soon

01:08:22   that we would see this maybe?

01:08:24   - I don't know.

01:08:27   I don't know.

01:08:28   Maybe.

01:08:29   Maybe.

01:08:30   I'm not clear.

01:08:31   I think, you know, it really depends.

01:08:35   They could at some point,

01:08:38   They could have it ready to go.

01:08:39   They could be making them now.

01:08:41   Although my guess is that they aren't

01:08:43   because we would probably have seen

01:08:44   leaked supply chain photos,

01:08:47   but they could be making them soon

01:08:48   or they could still be working on it

01:08:50   and not ready to release it

01:08:52   and not happy with the supplies

01:08:55   or the cost of the supplies

01:08:56   or the margin on the product.

01:08:57   And it could be six months or nine months.

01:09:00   It's hard to say.

01:09:02   Could be any time or not.

01:09:08   - Should we take a final break this week's episode?

01:09:11   - I think it's a good time.

01:09:12   - Tell me all about mail route, Jason Snow.

01:09:15   - All right, mail route.

01:09:16   I've mentioned it before, Myke.

01:09:18   Mail route is a magical service, magical.

01:09:22   Oh, I'm gonna, this is like an Apple product now.

01:09:24   So it's a magical service.

01:09:25   Imagine, imagine a world, Myke, without spam or viruses

01:09:30   or bounced email messages.

01:09:31   This is a magical world.

01:09:33   No, it's the real world if you use mail route.

01:09:36   I've been using mail route for a few years now.

01:09:38   It is a service that sits between your mail server

01:09:41   and the internet, takes in your mail,

01:09:44   processes it to see if it's spammy or has attached viruses,

01:09:49   or if it's just full of just, you know,

01:09:51   bounced junk from the internet,

01:09:52   and it filters that stuff out,

01:09:53   and then it passes it on to your mail server.

01:09:55   So your mail server doesn't have to bear the load

01:09:57   of receiving all that spam.

01:09:59   It never sees it.

01:10:00   And then you can optionally get a report every so often,

01:10:03   and you decide how often on their easy web interface

01:10:07   that will list the stuff that got knocked out

01:10:10   of your account.

01:10:10   And if there's something there,

01:10:11   if there was a false positive,

01:10:13   you can with one click whitelist the person who sent it

01:10:15   so their mail never gets caught again

01:10:18   and have that mail immediately delivered into your inbox.

01:10:21   And I do that occasionally,

01:10:23   but there are very few false positives at this point.

01:10:25   MailRoute is doing a great job.

01:10:28   The stuff that is in my little MailRoute message

01:10:31   or digest that I get, that's all, it's all spam.

01:10:34   And I just laugh at the subject lines

01:10:36   and then I move on with my day, which is great.

01:10:38   So MailRoute has done this for me, it can do it for you.

01:10:43   You don't have to install any hardware,

01:10:44   you don't have to install any software.

01:10:47   It's all in the cloud, it's MailRoute software

01:10:48   on their servers, it's easy to set up, it is reliable.

01:10:51   I haven't had any problems with reliability

01:10:53   with my mail getting delivered,

01:10:54   trusted by large universities and corporations.

01:10:57   If you are a desktop user like me,

01:10:59   you will like the simple easy interface for mail route.

01:11:01   And if you're an email administrator or an IT professional,

01:11:04   they've got all the tools that you want.

01:11:07   They built them with you in mind.

01:11:08   There's an API for easy account management.

01:11:11   They support LDAP, active directory, TLS, outbound relay,

01:11:15   and Myke's favorite mail bagging.

01:11:17   This is where you shout mail bagging.

01:11:19   Come on. - Mail bagging.

01:11:21   - Hey, everything you want

01:11:22   from the people handling your mail.

01:11:24   I've been using it for a while.

01:11:25   It's very good.

01:11:26   Check it out.

01:11:27   go to mailroute.net/upgrade and you will get a free trial.

01:11:31   You can try it out and see if it's for you.

01:11:33   And you'll also get 10% off of the lifetime of your account

01:11:37   if you go to mailroute.net/upgrade,

01:11:40   remove your spam from your email for good, like I did.

01:11:45   And thanks to everybody at MailRoute

01:11:47   for being a good friend of upgrade

01:11:50   and for filtering spam out of my email.

01:11:52   - Be like Jason, use MailRoute.

01:11:54   - Sure.

01:11:55   Sure, I do.

01:11:57   I love the one click thing. That's my favorite thing is that when it does misfile something,

01:12:01   which happens occasionally, that you can make one click and then the mail is immediately

01:12:04   delivered and that person is now white listed and you never have to deal with it again.

01:12:08   It's really nice.

01:12:12   So let's talk about battery life.

01:12:15   Okay.

01:12:17   Now, you wrote a piece on Six Colors looking at iOS devices and...

01:12:23   Yes. Thanks to Steven Hackett.

01:12:24   Yes.

01:12:25   I believe you guys, not to spoil upcoming episode of Connected, but I believe you guys

01:12:32   are working on something that is iPad related.

01:12:38   Maybe.

01:12:39   And Mr. Hackett was looking, he recalled that I've talked a lot about how Apple tends to

01:12:45   solve for specific battery life with their iOS products.

01:12:49   That every year there's a new iPhone and people think, "Oh, maybe this year the iPhone will

01:12:53   have a bigger battery."

01:12:54   And the answer is always, no, this iPhone is smaller.

01:12:57   And the amount of battery life that Apple quotes

01:12:59   is pretty much the same as last year.

01:13:01   And that happens every year.

01:13:03   That Apple obviously is not trying to make their phones

01:13:07   bigger or even the same size and have more battery life.

01:13:11   Instead, they're trying to, they're playing the game of

01:13:13   how small can we make this thing?

01:13:16   And how much can we tweak the software?

01:13:18   And how power saving is the hardware

01:13:20   so that we can get to the point where it's got

01:13:23   that suitable battery life and no more.

01:13:28   And so Steven asked me,

01:13:31   "Hey, did you ever write a story about that?"

01:13:33   And I said, "No, I talk about it all the time

01:13:34   "and I've never written a story about it."

01:13:35   So he did some research into the numbers

01:13:38   that Apple has quoted for iPhones and iPads over the years

01:13:41   and made some charts that I sort of adapted

01:13:46   and wrote a piece around.

01:13:48   So now we've got a piece that if you ever do talk about this

01:13:51   in a future episode of Connected,

01:13:52   you can link to this piece,

01:13:53   'cause now that piece finally exists.

01:13:56   And the numbers are amazing.

01:13:58   It was all anecdotal.

01:14:00   Obviously, in covering these products over the years,

01:14:02   I would always do the math and say,

01:14:04   "Oh, well, it's pretty much the same as the last time."

01:14:06   It's always pretty much the same as the last time.

01:14:08   People would always shake their fists and be like,

01:14:09   "Ah, I really wish there was more battery life."

01:14:12   And the answer was,

01:14:13   Apple thinks there's enough battery life in the iPhone.

01:14:16   At least they're not willing to compromise

01:14:18   and make the iPhone heavier or thicker

01:14:20   for your battery life.

01:14:21   much as what we just talked about, about the MacBook Air,

01:14:24   I feel like that happens here too,

01:14:26   which is Apple saying, sure,

01:14:28   if you really want mega battery life, go buy a battery pack,

01:14:31   but we're not gonna put the battery pack

01:14:33   in every single iPhone because most people don't want it.

01:14:37   I really think that that's the approach here.

01:14:40   So with Steven's research,

01:14:41   we were able to generate some charts,

01:14:43   which are in this story, which show the,

01:14:46   he did iPhone battery life, the quoted standby time,

01:14:50   and also the quoted sort of average time talk time

01:14:53   on whatever networks were in those phones

01:14:56   when they were released,

01:14:57   the prevalent network supported by the phone at the time.

01:15:00   So that changed over time from 2G to 3G to LTE.

01:15:04   And what you see is for the iPhone,

01:15:07   the quoted talk time has been,

01:15:10   it came up from the original iPhone and the 3G

01:15:14   from in the eight hour range to about 11 hours in the 4S.

01:15:19   regressed with the 5, went back up with the 5C, 5S,

01:15:24   but they're not that different.

01:15:25   And it's only with the iPhone 6 that the talk time

01:15:28   has gotten sort of above 12 hours quoted.

01:15:32   These are not based on,

01:15:33   they're based on Apple's internal tests

01:15:35   for marketing purposes so that they can figure out

01:15:38   what numbers to quote, but it's not,

01:15:40   these are not the independent test numbers.

01:15:42   These are just sort of what Apple says the battery life is.

01:15:45   And then there's the 6 Plus, and the 6 Plus, yeah,

01:15:48   there's a lot of battery life in the 6 Plus.

01:15:49   That is the change to the equation.

01:15:52   And if you look at the standby numbers,

01:15:53   it's the same thing.

01:15:54   They haven't changed a whole lot over time.

01:15:56   There is not a strict upward progression over time,

01:15:59   'cause you can see that Apple is taking away

01:16:01   some battery life when it needs to

01:16:03   in order to get more powerful or thinner or lighter.

01:16:06   And again, it's only really with the 6 Plus

01:16:09   that you see something that is way outside the norm.

01:16:12   So clearly on the normal,

01:16:14   whatever they consider the normal sized iPhone,

01:16:17   Apple is solving for that battery life.

01:16:18   And on the iPad, it's even more hilarious.

01:16:20   On the iPad, Wi-Fi iPads are always 10 hours of battery life.

01:16:25   That's what they're shooting for,

01:16:27   the quoted number of 10 hours of battery life.

01:16:29   And the only exceptions in the entire life of the iPad

01:16:32   are the iPad 2, iPad 3, and iPad 4 cellular models.

01:16:37   They were quoted at nine hours.

01:16:41   But the current cellular models are all quoted at 10 again.

01:16:46   So, and I think maybe the first mini was also a nine hour

01:16:49   for the cellular version.

01:16:50   So basically, the point of these dumb charts is,

01:16:54   Apple's trying to hit a battery life,

01:16:57   not grow battery life over time.

01:16:59   And the only exception seems to be the six plus.

01:17:01   - Okay, so I disagree with that hypothesis.

01:17:08   - Interesting.

01:17:10   - For the-- - Six plus user.

01:17:12   - Well, yeah, but for the phones.

01:17:13   Okay, so you look at the iPad, right?

01:17:15   and clearly Apple are making decisions in the negative and positive to get it to 10.

01:17:22   There is like a number on the wall in the iPad hardware development team that just says 10.

01:17:28   This is a paper on the wall that says 10, which is clear right? Because you look at that

01:17:32   and it's over the these six iterations it's sticking at 10. Those standby numbers for the

01:17:39   phone are all over the place. So Apple have not decided on an amount. But if

01:17:46   they thought the original iPhone was the right amount, which is kind of where we

01:17:50   are again with the 6, then like why did it increase for the 3G, the 3GS, and the 4?

01:17:55   And then it decreased significantly for the 4S, and it's only kind of building up from there.

01:18:01   With standby, I wonder how much of software is embedded into the standby.

01:18:06   And also we've got, not only do we have software and hardware changes, but

01:18:09   we've got these wireless changes that happen.

01:18:11   Like if you look at the battery life with talk times,

01:18:15   the reason the 4S goes down to the 5, it's gotta be LTE.

01:18:21   It's gotta be LTE.

01:18:23   Like LTE, they took a hit

01:18:24   and the battery life regressed 'cause of LTE.

01:18:27   And maybe, you know, 3G,

01:18:30   when the iPhone went to the iPhone 3G,

01:18:32   it regressed in battery life on cell.

01:18:34   And that was probably because of the extra power required

01:18:38   for the 3G and then they got better over time.

01:18:41   - But like I said, if we look at the sell chart though,

01:18:45   they were happy to let it increase, right?

01:18:48   And then LTE come by and struck it down.

01:18:50   But if you look at the overall trend,

01:18:54   if you were to draw a trend line from iPhone to iPhone 6,

01:18:58   that Apple are increasing it.

01:19:00   And if they're increasing it,

01:19:01   it means they don't think that they found

01:19:03   the number that they found with the original iPad.

01:19:07   original iPad the number is the same as it is today we are not at that stage

01:19:11   with the iPhone admittedly it's not a huge increase but it's big enough it's

01:19:15   it's basically double so my argument would be is they have not found that

01:19:21   point yet but they are making decisions in the way that they make the phone

01:19:26   which don't let it go crazy like it does for the 6 plus the 6 plus is battery is

01:19:30   that the battery life is only that great because they have added space they have

01:19:35   extra space because it's so large they just chuck it in there. And the 6 has extra space too,

01:19:39   which is I think why the 6 has the best battery life in terms of cellular

01:19:44   talk. I guess what I would say is there is a positive trend over time but it

01:19:48   seems to be related to adopting a new technology and then improving within

01:19:52   that technology. So the 3G era you see improvement 3G, 3GS, 4, 4S and then you

01:20:00   take the step back with LTE and then you see forward steps there although the

01:20:04   the jump from the 5C and 5S era to the 6 is a much bigger jump from the 5 to the 5C and the 5S,

01:20:11   and I think that's because of size as a part of it. I guess I don't dispute that Apple is

01:20:18   open to adding more battery life. I guess I would say clearly Apple is not concerned about—if you

01:20:27   look at that base number for the 5, let's say, Apple felt like that was good enough, and that

01:20:32   that they made and the five is so much thinner

01:20:36   than the 4S and they were okay with that

01:20:39   because they thought that battery life was okay.

01:20:42   And I mean, and these are all messy numbers

01:20:44   and but I just, in my mind, I look at this and I say,

01:20:48   this shows that Apple kinda is not,

01:20:52   they don't care if they regress with battery a little bit

01:20:55   from time to time, they just don't care.

01:20:56   Whereas thinness, they really seem to care if they regress.

01:21:00   - Oh, I agree with that.

01:21:01   thinness and lightness, they have to be marching forward.

01:21:03   Battery, they're like, they're okay.

01:21:06   'Cause again, you could have gone from the 4S to the 5

01:21:09   and kept the thickness of the 4S,

01:21:11   and that battery life would have been better.

01:21:13   And they didn't do it.

01:21:14   They put it back in,

01:21:16   'cause I think they're just shooting for,

01:21:19   and underlying this, I would say,

01:21:21   is they're shooting for all day.

01:21:22   They're shooting for some platonic ideal of all day,

01:21:24   which is you unplug your phone in the morning

01:21:26   when you go to work, you're at work all day,

01:21:29   and then you go home in the evening

01:21:31   and it should last that much time.

01:21:34   And that they have models of usage that are based on that.

01:21:38   It's like, you can do that all day,

01:21:40   but if you're gonna be on your device

01:21:42   every minute of that day using data, it's gonna die,

01:21:45   but then you're an outlier and they're not solving for you,

01:21:48   they're solving for somebody

01:21:50   who's got lighter use than that.

01:21:51   So I would expect these numbers to improve,

01:21:55   not because battery technology is improving,

01:21:58   but because Apple wants to increase,

01:22:01   if Apple targeted this as a feature

01:22:02   it wanted to improve over time, it would have,

01:22:04   and it hasn't really, until the six.

01:22:06   And I think the six is where the story changes

01:22:08   because of the size.

01:22:10   - So I definitely agree with you that they're,

01:22:14   that they're not averse to cutting it for certain reasons.

01:22:17   It's just my kind of, my, the way that I look at this is,

01:22:21   they found something with the iPad

01:22:23   that they've not yet found with the iPhone,

01:22:24   which is the number, right?

01:22:26   The iPad, I don't know why they made the decision that they made, but they decided to go with

01:22:32   10 and they stuck on it.

01:22:33   They're just like, "This is just where we're going to go."

01:22:36   It's just interesting to me that that is how that has been.

01:22:40   Because even the Mini, right?

01:22:41   The Mini's 10, isn't it?

01:22:43   Yeah.

01:22:44   It's all 10.

01:22:46   Because then you'd think, the Mini and the Air, in theory, they were pretty much the

01:22:52   same internals, the Air should have had bigger battery life in theory if you

01:22:56   look at the 6 and the 6 plus right because that is like a in they are very

01:23:01   similar in that idea pretty much the same internals bigger screen you think

01:23:05   bigger screen would take more battery clearly it doesn't but Apple potentially

01:23:09   made a choice and like 10 hours is what it gets and we're gonna put in it

01:23:12   there's there's a really this is an example from another company but I think

01:23:16   this is really interesting in illustrating how companies make these

01:23:19   decisions. This is Nintendo. So on the Wii U, the Wii U gamepad gets about

01:23:27   four to six hours of battery life, something like that. But Nintendo sell a

01:23:32   bigger battery that you can buy. You can buy it from from Nintendo's website and

01:23:38   it says it's very easy to change. It's just one screwdriver and you

01:23:44   can put it in and you get like eight to ten hours of battery life. Now the

01:23:48   reason I bring this up is because what that obviously does is it adds weight to

01:23:52   the overall product and potentially makes it a less comfortable thing to

01:23:55   hold in your hand. So it's just like this is from a company that is not averse

01:24:00   to letting you put things and change things right? But they made a

01:24:06   decision because the battery pack, the battery slot for the Wii U, the

01:24:14   battery in it doesn't fit inside the entire pack it's smaller so you the

01:24:19   place that you put this battery pack in it's the larger battery pack it fits in

01:24:23   the same place so like they have additional space for it sure but they

01:24:27   decide that they don't want to use it that way I just think it's just an

01:24:30   interesting like parallel you know they they make decisions based on that I yeah

01:24:36   I think I think you make I mean you're right the the battery life on the Apple

01:24:42   stuff is it fluctuates. I think the larger point is that Apple feels like

01:24:49   it's enough. Apple clearly is not being driven by people complaining that their

01:24:54   phone doesn't last all day to make the phone have more capacity unless we look

01:24:59   at the 6 which is kind of a byproduct of the size and see that there is more

01:25:04   battery life on the 6 than there was. It just it's funny like if if if it was

01:25:10   clear that everybody hated the iPhone because it didn't last long enough. I

01:25:15   think you would see in the numbers a bigger drive to get to, you know, 12, 15,

01:25:21   18 hours. And that it's just kind of not there. It's just this slow progression

01:25:27   where the the chips are getting more efficient and then there's a new cell

01:25:31   technology and it drops again. It explains to me why my daughter's iPhone

01:25:35   is constantly running out of battery because she's a heavy user and it

01:25:41   doesn't have very good battery life and it's and it's two years old but but yeah

01:25:46   it's it's just it's interesting I'm glad that Steven did the research here and and

01:25:50   it was a fun story to write but you know Apple's not gonna let you swap in a new

01:25:55   battery like Nintendo and Apple has shot I mean to Nintendo has decided that for

01:25:59   most people that base battery is probably fine and if you're somebody

01:26:03   who's an outlier, you'll buy the extra battery and you can put it in and that's fine, but

01:26:07   they're not going to spend the money on the extra battery if most people don't need it.

01:26:11   My son is kind of paranoid about the battery. It's good to know that that's the battery

01:26:15   life because he's paranoid about the battery. He doesn't even want to run the Wii controller

01:26:19   without being plugged in. Like, no, no, it's fine. It's got a battery. It'll last for a

01:26:24   while. I should let him know that because he tends to stay tethered to where it's plugged

01:26:30   again. Batteries huh? I'm just pleased that you finally put in print that I made the

01:26:38   superior choice with the 6 Plus. If battery life like that is what you care

01:26:43   about I know you need that battery life because of you know your long commute

01:26:47   and all the time you spend using your phone at your at your workplace. Oh right

01:26:51   you don't do that anymore. I still make commutes I have a co-working space it

01:26:55   takes me it takes about an hour to get there okay and then I'm off power I

01:27:00   Well good. Yeah, I very frequently continue to need my iPhone all day.

01:27:04   Good for you. Well, do we have, what do you think? Are we done? Should we do

01:27:12   one more? Let's just do this quickly. Okay, because I mean this one we got to

01:27:19   talk about it now or we lose it. Forever hold our peace. Which is that this, or until

01:27:23   next year. This week is the eighth anniversary, or last week I guess, eighth

01:27:28   anniversary of the iPhone launch. We just had it. Which also means it's the first anniversary of

01:27:34   that nice episode of The Prompt where you talked about the iPhone launch. Which was a great episode.

01:27:40   Thank you. Put it in the show notes. I will do. That took eight hours to edit. That was the,

01:27:46   I would say, listening to that episode was great because I thought, "Oh my god, they did an episode

01:27:51   of The Incomparable that's about an Apple event. That's awesome!" I love that. I never thought of

01:27:55   - I'll give it that way.

01:27:56   - It's an analytical, you know,

01:27:59   it looks like a review,

01:28:00   except instead of a movie or a TV show,

01:28:02   it's a video of an Apple event.

01:28:05   Broke it down.

01:28:06   I loved it.

01:28:07   And that was so January 9th,

01:28:10   a few days ago as we record this,

01:28:11   it was the eighth anniversary of that.

01:28:12   The iPhone didn't ship until the summer.

01:28:14   So the actual eighth anniversary of the iPhone on the,

01:28:17   you know, being available as a product is a few months away.

01:28:21   And I wanted to mention that it is the eighth anniversary.

01:28:25   and as somebody who's been doing this for a while,

01:28:26   I also wanted to mention,

01:28:28   I'm in the audience there,

01:28:31   although unlike the iPod event,

01:28:32   you can't see me in the video.

01:28:33   I'm pretty sure I'm not visible in the video,

01:28:36   but I'm there somewhere at Macworld Expo.

01:28:40   So I may actually be up in one of the front rows

01:28:42   for that one.

01:28:43   And at that time we weren't doing a live blog yet.

01:28:47   So I was sending instant messages back to the office

01:28:49   and Peter Cohen was turning it into a live news story.

01:28:52   So we would just write it as a news story,

01:28:54   but just keep updating it as everything got announced.

01:28:57   Because in back in those days,

01:28:59   live blogging wasn't quite the thing that it became.

01:29:03   And then I just wanted to mention

01:29:05   that there was a few days later,

01:29:08   I got to touch the iPhone. (laughs)

01:29:12   I got to use a sample.

01:29:15   And I remember that vividly

01:29:17   because I remember picking it up

01:29:20   and being surprised at how dense it felt.

01:29:23   and at the resolution of that screen,

01:29:26   which was, although not impressive now,

01:29:29   because it's not a retina display by any stretch,

01:29:32   it was roughly double what used to be

01:29:35   the standard max screen resolution,

01:29:38   which was 72 DPI, and that was in the 140 DPI range.

01:29:41   So it was a denser screen than Apple had ever made before.

01:29:46   So everything looked better,

01:29:48   and the stuff that worked worked really well.

01:29:51   And then there were the apps that you would touch on

01:29:53   and realized that it was just a screenshot

01:29:55   and that app didn't exist.

01:29:57   But that was a, there was a great like six month period

01:30:01   where I was one of a handful of people

01:30:03   who could say that they had actually held an iPhone

01:30:05   and used it for a little bit.

01:30:06   And don't think I didn't point that out

01:30:09   at every possible occurrence.

01:30:11   Oh yeah, I've used the iPhone.

01:30:12   Really?

01:30:13   Yes, yes.

01:30:15   - Oh, you know me.

01:30:16   - Good times.

01:30:17   Good times.

01:30:19   Anyway, that's a classic event.

01:30:20   is sort of the pinnacle of the Steve Jobs keynote. People should listen to episode 30 of The Prompt

01:30:25   because that's a great breakdown on that event. And that was a really, that was a cool thing to

01:30:30   see. It was amazing to be in the audience and hear the people tittering about the revolutionary

01:30:38   mobile phone, widescreen iPod with touch controls, breakthrough internet communicator as people got

01:30:44   it, right? Before he said, "You're getting it." People are like, "Oh, I see what he's doing here."

01:30:48   and there was people you could hear the audience just sort of like starting to come together and

01:30:52   yeah that was pretty cool so that was a good moment eight years ago where does the time go

01:30:57   amazing and one question for you about this then how did that come about you getting to go and

01:31:03   see it then because obviously it was during macworld so apple were around yeah they had

01:31:07   They had a room at Macworld Expo.

01:31:12   And it was often the mezzanine somewhere

01:31:21   and you'd go down a ways and then there was Apple people

01:31:24   that you couldn't pass unless you had the approval

01:31:26   and then you went back there.

01:31:27   So it was like, come by on Wednesday after or Thursday,

01:31:32   I think it was the last day,

01:31:33   come by on Thursday in the afternoon

01:31:35   and we'll have a briefing.

01:31:37   And it was, you know, I don't even remember who it was.

01:31:40   It might've been like Greg Joswiak or somebody.

01:31:43   I don't think Phil Schiller was there.

01:31:45   He might've been, but it was like two or three Apple,

01:31:47   it was like a PR person and a couple of Apple execs

01:31:50   and an iPhone.

01:31:51   And it was spread out over the week

01:31:53   because I suspect they only had a couple

01:31:55   that were functional that you could actually,

01:31:58   a member of the press could actually touch.

01:32:00   And, but they invited me in and toward the end of the week

01:32:02   and I got to use it and write a story about it

01:32:06   and have that in my mind of like,

01:32:07   this is what this device is gonna be like

01:32:09   for those months when we had no idea.

01:32:12   And it's funny to look back to my story now,

01:32:14   because that was, you know, after my 10 minutes with it.

01:32:16   And the 10 minutes were tough

01:32:17   because they wanted me to use it

01:32:18   and also ask them questions.

01:32:20   And I found that I couldn't.

01:32:22   I found like I would start using it and I'd be like,

01:32:23   I don't even, I'd start asking a question

01:32:26   and then I would be tapping on things

01:32:28   and the question would just trail off

01:32:29   and I'd be like, guys, I don't think I can do this.

01:32:31   I don't think I can focus on you and focus on this thing.

01:32:34   It was pretty incredible.

01:32:36   That is the most I have ever felt like

01:32:40   I can't believe this technology exists

01:32:43   in my entire career of using technology.

01:32:47   That a product that looked and felt like that

01:32:50   was actually in my hands and not fictional.

01:32:54   It was like that.

01:32:56   It was pretty crazy.

01:32:57   - So where people think that you're actually the lucky one,

01:32:59   you're actually an unlucky person

01:33:01   because we all just imagined what it would be like

01:33:04   before we get it, but you, like,

01:33:08   you knew what it was like, right?

01:33:10   So I think it's probably worse for you

01:33:12   because you know what you're gonna be getting

01:33:15   in a couple of months time.

01:33:16   - Yeah, oh yeah, it was clear

01:33:20   what that product was gonna be.

01:33:22   It was clear.

01:33:23   It is funny now though that I look at the pictures

01:33:26   of the people looking at the one that was in like

01:33:28   the plastic tube and everybody's like,

01:33:32   "Oh, the phone, the phone."

01:33:33   And it was all theoretical.

01:33:35   And for me, it was never theoretical.

01:33:37   After I saw it, I had an idea and it was pretty crazy.

01:33:41   That was great.

01:33:42   That was a great thing.

01:33:44   It was, I'm glad that Apple did that

01:33:46   because everybody who touched that phone,

01:33:50   got to hold that phone, knew what was going on.

01:33:53   So that was really smart of them

01:33:54   because in hindsight now,

01:33:55   with some of the reporting we've got,

01:33:57   we know there weren't that many that functioned

01:33:59   and that they probably didn't function for very long.

01:34:01   So they didn't want you doing too much on it

01:34:03   'cause probably after each briefing,

01:34:04   they had to reboot it and reset it

01:34:06   and get it back to a clean state

01:34:08   'cause it was still under serious development.

01:34:10   But yeah, it was once you held it,

01:34:14   I mean, I remember it was warm and dense

01:34:18   and that the screen was so bright and clear

01:34:22   and that the, you know, that touchscreen

01:34:25   coming from a trio or something, that the touchscreen was so responsive, and that the

01:34:29   keyboard was autocorrecting and things like that.

01:34:32   Just, yeah, it was pretty amazing.

01:34:35   See Elastic Scrolling, man, gets me every time.

01:34:37   Yeah.

01:34:38   You know, the bit in the video where you could hear audible gasps when he gets to the end

01:34:42   of the, I think he's in the music app.

01:34:45   It's called "Santenbot" and it bounces back.

01:34:48   Yep.

01:34:49   Every time.

01:34:50   I still get chills watching that video.

01:34:51   If you've never, if you haven't seen or you've never seen the iPhone announcement, or you

01:34:57   haven't seen it since the original, you should watch it again because it's still every bit

01:35:01   as magical.

01:35:02   It's a classic.

01:35:03   In a weird way.

01:35:06   And also it holds new entertainment value now because of all the things that they're

01:35:11   doing which now look crazy.

01:35:13   Like how Steve's like, you know, he looks at the phone and he pulls down his glasses

01:35:17   and he holds it in one hand he's like just with one finger tapping to type you

01:35:22   know and it's like he has no idea how to use this keyboard yet and there's just

01:35:27   all these little nice little touches about it like that which makes it well

01:35:29   worth watching yeah plus Stan Stigman oh skip that bit even when we did the when

01:35:38   we did the iPhone episode we we all skip that bit skip the Stan Stigman yeah it's

01:35:44   the worst. And weird Eric Schmidt is in that too. Yeah I watched his bit and

01:35:48   the Yahoo guy is the best bit like the Yahoo guy he's like "hey maybe you can give me one of those" and he's like "hey go away"

01:35:55   don't call me we'll call you good luck thanks for the search engine or whatever

01:36:02   it is thanks for the weather thanks for the stocks widget bye Jerry

01:36:05   oh they gave the push email for free oh that's it push email revolutionary

01:36:11   I love that the CEO of the company providing the free things to get our device and then

01:36:18   to ask on stage.

01:36:20   Just no luck.

01:36:22   If you'd like to find the show notes for this week's episode, you should go to relay.fm/upgrades/18.

01:36:27   Thanks again to our sponsors for this week, lynda.com, stamps.com, and mail route.

01:36:32   My name is Myke Hurley.

01:36:33   I'm @imike.

01:36:34   I M-Y-K-E, and I am joined as always by the lovely Mr. Jason Snow.

01:36:38   He is @jsnell and writes the fantastic sixcolors.com.

01:36:43   We'll be back next week with another episode of Upgrade.

01:36:47   If you'd like to listen live, go to relay.fm/schedule

01:36:50   and it will give you all the information that you need.

01:36:53   Or you can follow our Twitter account,

01:36:54   which is @_upgradefm.

01:36:57   Jason always issues a lovely tweet

01:36:59   to let you know when we're gonna be recording.

01:37:02   Thank you so much for listening.

01:37:03   Until next time, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:37:05   - Goodbye, everybody.

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