443: Core Variations


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   - From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 443.

00:00:13   Today's show is brought to you by

00:00:14   Electric Capital One and Upgrade Plus.

00:00:17   My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snell.

00:00:19   Hi, Jason.

00:00:20   - Hi, Myke.

00:00:21   - We've got a big show today.

00:00:23   Since our last episode, Apple revealed

00:00:25   new Macintosh's to the world.

00:00:27   You've gotten to spend some time with one of them,

00:00:30   the MacBook Pro.

00:00:31   And we're gonna do a review of it today on this episode,

00:00:33   as well as talk about the Mac mini

00:00:35   and Dan Morin's coverage of Six Colors,

00:00:37   and much, much more.

00:00:39   But before we do all of that,

00:00:41   I have a hashtag Snell Talk question for you,

00:00:44   which comes from Kevin, who wants to know,

00:00:47   are you still paying for iTunes match?

00:00:50   - Right, I took the Snell Talk question

00:00:52   as a public service announcement just to explain to people.

00:00:55   If you are an Apple Music subscriber,

00:00:56   you don't need to pay for iTunes match

00:00:58   because iTunes match functionality is included

00:01:00   with your Apple music subscription.

00:01:02   iTunes match for those who don't know,

00:01:03   is a thing where it looks at all of the music

00:01:05   that you've got on your personal music library

00:01:07   and it scans it and it either matches it to stuff

00:01:10   that's in the iTunes library, the Apple music library,

00:01:13   or it uploads it and it allows you to have cloud access

00:01:17   to your entire sort of like MP3 library

00:01:20   that you have on your Mac at home.

00:01:22   It means that it'll play on an iPhone and stuff like that.

00:01:24   It's a fun little feature, but it was very quickly

00:01:26   sort of subsumed by Apple Music,

00:01:28   which also does all of those same things.

00:01:31   So if you're an Apple Music subscriber,

00:01:34   you don't need to be paying for iTunes match.

00:01:36   And to answer Kevin's question, well, no,

00:01:38   as soon as I became an Apple Music subscriber,

00:01:40   I stopped paying for iTunes match

00:01:42   because I don't need them both.

00:01:43   If you're not an Apple Music subscriber

00:01:45   and you wanna sort of like be your own music streaming

00:01:47   service with the music that you have and nothing else,

00:01:50   then iTunes match is the way to do that.

00:01:52   - I have a secondary question from Zach,

00:01:55   who's listening live in the Relay FM members Discord.

00:01:58   We do record this show live every Monday

00:02:00   if you wanna hang out.

00:02:01   Especially if you're a member,

00:02:01   it's fun to hang out in the Discord while we do it.

00:02:03   Zach asks, "Doesn't iTunes match it to DRM free

00:02:07   and content and Apple Music will match it to DRM'd content?"

00:02:12   - I don't know what that means, Zach.

00:02:13   - So let's imagine you had a live version of a song

00:02:17   or whatever, that's your live version of a song.

00:02:20   - Yes.

00:02:21   - Is it going to do it to a different,

00:02:24   like to a version that's in the Apple Music Library

00:02:26   rather than the one that's yours?

00:02:28   - It's not supposed to, and in most cases it doesn't.

00:02:31   There's a chance that it might do that by mistake,

00:02:34   it's not supposed to do that.

00:02:36   So I, yeah, I've got live albums and stuff

00:02:38   that are in my iTunes Music Library

00:02:43   and will play from any device.

00:02:44   So it doesn't matter.

00:02:46   In fact, the clever thing about it is,

00:02:48   if you downloaded content from someplace,

00:02:50   wasn't yours, and it matches, you get it.

00:02:55   - And then it's in the library.

00:02:57   - It may be, again, this is a question about responding live

00:03:02   to a question that is unclear in a Discord,

00:03:05   but there is a question about like,

00:03:08   if you're matching in Apple Music,

00:03:10   is it all wrapped in Apple Music DRM

00:03:13   and expires when you leave?

00:03:15   That may be true, I don't know.

00:03:17   the point I would make is,

00:03:19   do not upload your entire music collection to Apple

00:03:23   in any feature in iTunes match or in Apple music

00:03:26   and then delete your music collection.

00:03:29   - Yeah, okay.

00:03:30   - You should keep it. - That's the way to do it.

00:03:31   Yes, and then you can check it, right?

00:03:32   But then you've also still got it, it's yours.

00:03:36   And then you can see if it's the stuff that you want,

00:03:39   but yeah, don't delete the music.

00:03:41   - No, so you keep it around.

00:03:43   And if you decide to switch to Spotify

00:03:45   or something like that,

00:03:45   What you could do in that scenario is cancel Apple Music, pay from iTunes Match to get

00:03:51   your stuff that you have on your hard drive, again, that you saved and you didn't throw

00:03:56   away available on your phone when you're out and about, and then also have Spotify.

00:04:01   Because I don't think Spotify will let you upload tracks and stuff like that.

00:04:04   They used to a long time ago.

00:04:06   There are ways to do it.

00:04:07   There are ways to do it, but iTunes Match is not relevant if you are an Apple Music

00:04:11   subscriber.

00:04:12   It's duplicative.

00:04:13   but what ifs all come down to don't throw away your music collection. Don't do that. Don't trust Apple.

00:04:20   If you would like to send in a question for us to answer on a future episode of Upgrade,

00:04:25   just send in your Snell Talk over at UpgradeFeedback.com. I use question mark

00:04:29   SnellTalk in the Relay FM members Discord. Thank you to everybody that has done so.

00:04:35   It is time for some follow-up, Jason Snell, which has all been submitted again while our wonderful

00:04:42   or new feedback tool.

00:04:45   I'm gonna start off with something sent in

00:04:46   from _DavidSmith, which I enjoyed that _ sent this

00:04:50   via the upgrade feedback tool when he could have just

00:04:53   texted it to me or put it in Slack, but you know,

00:04:55   very official, he sent it in that way.

00:04:57   - Thanks.

00:04:58   - And this is about, remember Zombie Arms?

00:05:00   We were talking about Zombie Arms?

00:05:02   _ wrote in to say, "I explored a bit about the origin

00:05:05   of the phrase 'Zombie Arms' as it relates

00:05:07   to touchscreen Macs.

00:05:08   The earliest reference I could find was actually Jason

00:05:11   talking to Jon Gruber on the talk show episode 164

00:05:15   back in August of 2016,

00:05:17   as part of a discussion about the touch bar.

00:05:20   - Yeah, so the proof that I did not invent that term,

00:05:24   so proof that it predates that.

00:05:26   - Yeah. - I don't know

00:05:27   where it comes from.

00:05:28   - Or maybe you did invent it.

00:05:30   - I didn't.

00:05:30   - Maybe you did though. - I really didn't invent

00:05:32   Zombie Arms. - Do you know

00:05:33   if you've considered that?

00:05:34   - No.

00:05:35   - Brian writes in and says,

00:05:36   "Regarding touch screens coming to the MacBook Pro first,

00:05:39   it's the laptop iOS developers use.

00:05:41   If all it did was let developers use the touch screen

00:05:44   for their iOS simulator, some of us would buy it.

00:05:46   I found that as an interesting idea

00:05:49   for why developers might want a touch screen.

00:05:51   - Sure, I do think it's interesting.

00:05:55   I think it's novel.

00:05:56   I don't think that's like the reason they do it,

00:05:57   but I do think it's a novel use that would be useful

00:06:00   if they let developers have access to that.

00:06:03   I mean, you're gonna get the zombie arms, but you know,

00:06:06   it's okay. - You can do that.

00:06:07   And I had one counterpoint that I hadn't considered

00:06:10   from Anthony who said, "I would hate to see a touch screen

00:06:13   "added to the Macs at the expense of a noticeably thicker

00:06:17   "or heavier screen."

00:06:19   - Fair enough, but there are lots of PC laptops out there.

00:06:22   They all have touch screens.

00:06:23   There are iPhones and iPads.

00:06:26   Fair enough.

00:06:30   Yes, it would be a shame if the screens

00:06:35   of a MacBook Pro got worse because of the touch screen.

00:06:39   I'll also point out that it might not be the touchscreen,

00:06:42   it might be other stuff.

00:06:43   Because if the Apple were to do something

00:06:44   that was more convertible,

00:06:46   they may have to do things like put the brains

00:06:48   of the computer or a battery in that top half,

00:06:52   which would make the balance of it really different

00:06:54   than it is now.

00:06:55   There's lots of things that could happen there.

00:06:58   So we will see, but I am dubious

00:07:02   that Apple would add a touchscreen.

00:07:07   And when you look at other PC laptops, it's fine.

00:07:11   So I just, but fair enough.

00:07:13   Yes, that would be a negative

00:07:15   if they made your whole laptop thicker.

00:07:19   I actually kind of don't care about

00:07:21   if the screen being thicker,

00:07:22   it would be more about the weight and the balance

00:07:25   and the laptop being thicker.

00:07:26   Yeah, sure, sure.

00:07:28   I'm, yeah, I'm doubtful that this is gonna be an issue,

00:07:31   but I don't deny that if it were, it would be a problem.

00:07:35   All right, let's talk about the MacBook Pro.

00:07:38   So you've had one for the best part of a week also?

00:07:42   - Yeah, five-ish days, six days, something like that, yeah.

00:07:46   - So we're gonna talk about the MacBook Pro

00:07:48   and the M2 chips kind of all in this one discussion,

00:07:51   and we'll touch on the Mac Mini.

00:07:52   Oh, and there's a HomePod.

00:07:53   We'll talk about that too a little bit later

00:07:56   into this episode. - Sure, which I don't have.

00:07:58   - What I wanted to start with though

00:08:00   is the configuration that you got.

00:08:03   Could you let me know the specs?

00:08:04   But also I wanna talk about the fact

00:08:05   that you have a 16 inch laptop

00:08:07   and I just wanna know how that felt to use.

00:08:09   - It is a 16 inch MacBook Pro M2 Max

00:08:14   with 12 cores and 38 GPUs.

00:08:18   I think it's a terabyte and 64 RAM.

00:08:24   I don't know, I would have to go get it.

00:08:25   It's actually not right in front of me right now.

00:08:27   - Okay.

00:08:28   - It's a big one. - It's powerful.

00:08:29   - Yeah.

00:08:30   - It's the big one in all dimensions.

00:08:32   (laughing)

00:08:35   - So when was the last time you used a laptop of this size,

00:08:39   if you have ever?

00:08:41   - I mean, I probably,

00:08:43   the last time I used a laptop of this size

00:08:44   was when they introduced the 16 inch MacBook Pro on Intel

00:08:49   or I mean, right, 'cause I got the 14 inch for M1.

00:08:53   So it was that first,

00:08:55   it was that right before the pandemic event in New York City

00:08:59   where they did the first 16 inch

00:09:00   where they still had the touch bar,

00:09:03   but they fixed the keyboard.

00:09:05   That was sort of the, I think the last time

00:09:08   that I spent any appreciable time with a laptop this large.

00:09:11   - And this is just what Apple sent you, right?

00:09:13   You didn't ask for a 16 inch computer?

00:09:15   - No, I did not, no.

00:09:16   - Okay. - But that's what

00:09:17   they sent me.

00:09:18   - And I'm just intrigued. - I think they're having

00:09:19   a laugh.

00:09:20   - I wanna know like how it felt.

00:09:22   Like I know this is not the interesting part of the review,

00:09:24   but I've been desperate to know how you got on

00:09:27   with that like massive laptop.

00:09:30   - Really huge.

00:09:32   - Yes, it's gigantic, it's enormous.

00:09:34   It's hilariously enormous.

00:09:37   I mean, what do you want me to say?

00:09:38   I hate it.

00:09:39   I hate this.

00:09:40   - I just wanted to get your like,

00:09:42   did you have a revelation or what?

00:09:44   - I would never in a billion years

00:09:46   want a laptop this large, right?

00:09:48   Fortunately, the 14 inch is exactly the same on the inside

00:09:51   other than like battery capacity

00:09:53   and the literal physical size of the screen.

00:09:55   But like computer wise, they're the same.

00:09:58   So you can choose.

00:09:59   I would never in a million years

00:10:01   choose the 16 inch ergonomically.

00:10:02   I don't see the benefit in having that screen.

00:10:06   And I mean, like, I didn't even know where to put my hands

00:10:09   on the keyboard, Myke,

00:10:11   'cause my hands are like drifting around

00:10:13   'cause there's like the big speakers to the side

00:10:16   and there's just this vast amount of space

00:10:18   on the keyboard plane of the laptop.

00:10:21   And I didn't even like,

00:10:22   I try to orient my hands sometimes

00:10:24   by the edge of the laptop,

00:10:25   but you can't reach the edge of the laptop.

00:10:27   It just goes on forever.

00:10:30   Like, you know, I don't know.

00:10:32   It's big.

00:10:34   It's not a size for me.

00:10:36   And those who love it, bless you.

00:10:39   Great.

00:10:40   It is a beautiful, huge screen.

00:10:42   As a thing you put on your desk,

00:10:45   I can get behind why you might want it.

00:10:48   I tried to use it as a laptop, like in my lap and stuff.

00:10:51   And it's, yeah, it's gigantic.

00:10:55   I would love to know, Upgradians,

00:10:57   if you use a 16-inch laptop every day,

00:11:01   I wanna know why you chose it.

00:11:03   Send us some feedback. - Why?

00:11:04   - And we can talk about it.

00:11:05   I'm not judging you, right?

00:11:06   There is, for me, no judgment.

00:11:08   I'm just intrigued.

00:11:10   - And where do you use it primarily?

00:11:12   - Yeah. - How about that one too?

00:11:13   Because I suspect a lot of 16-inch laptops

00:11:16   are left on a desk, right?

00:11:18   They're not- - Maybe.

00:11:19   - toted around all the time and,

00:11:21   "Oh, I'm on the couch with my giant 16-inch laptop."

00:11:24   But then why are you using it as a laptop?

00:11:27   Get a monitor and a keyboard.

00:11:29   Why would you get a 16-inch laptop

00:11:31   and then not take it anywhere?

00:11:32   You know what I mean?

00:11:34   I'm just really intrigued.

00:11:35   So if you have a 16-inch MacBook Pro and you use it,

00:11:39   I want to know why you chose it and how you use it.

00:11:42   Let me know.

00:11:43   Great feedback. - And what is wrong with you?

00:11:44   No, sorry. - No, I'm not saying that part.

00:11:46   That's Jason.

00:11:47   Myke just was curious.

00:11:48   And we can talk about it.

00:11:49   I'll collect these up if we get people right in.

00:11:51   - Great. - And we can talk

00:11:52   about it later on.

00:11:53   - All right, that's UpgradFeedback.com, right?

00:11:55   UpgradeFeedback.com. - UpgradeFeedback.com.

00:11:57   Hit the link in the top of the show notes,

00:11:58   send us some feedback.

00:12:00   So by and large, this MacBook Pro,

00:12:03   everything that's new is inside, right?

00:12:05   It's like the power of the thing.

00:12:07   That's where the newness is.

00:12:08   Outside of that, there isn't really much to talk about.

00:12:11   - This is, I mean, that's how my lead of my story is,

00:12:14   is here's what it's not new.

00:12:15   It's not, it's not new.

00:12:17   We did that already, right?

00:12:19   M1 MacBook Pro had more ports, and it had Apple Silicon,

00:12:23   and it had that beautiful backlit, the mini-LED, HDR display.

00:12:28   It is the best display Apple has ever made, basically,

00:12:34   for the Mac, certainly.

00:12:37   It is that again, right?

00:12:40   Like, there's not anything really new,

00:12:44   except that they took the processor from M1 to M2.

00:12:48   So it's a generational boost, which is something,

00:12:51   but it's not a lot.

00:12:53   I mean, I think what I said was,

00:12:55   if you have an M1 MacBook Pro, I think you're fine.

00:12:58   Unless you're in this,

00:13:01   unless you're one of these people

00:13:02   who it just doesn't matter,

00:13:04   I always need the fastest

00:13:05   because I could use all of that power.

00:13:07   So get me the fastest again,

00:13:09   'cause it is a little bit faster, 'cause it's an M2.

00:13:12   Or you've got a very specific need,

00:13:14   like with the HDMI,

00:13:15   being able to output at higher resolution

00:13:17   and frame rates like, okay.

00:13:20   Or the only other scenario could really come up with

00:13:22   from the M1 would be regret.

00:13:25   Like I bought the M1, but I kind of like cheaped out

00:13:29   on the specs and I've regretted the size

00:13:30   of the internal drive or the RAM or whatever.

00:13:33   And like, and you're gonna give yourself a mulligan

00:13:36   and buy an M2 and then sell off your M1, like, okay.

00:13:39   But a regular user of an M1 MacBook Pro should feel fine

00:13:44   because these things are not meant to last a year

00:13:47   or 15 months.

00:13:48   They are meant to last a lot longer.

00:13:50   The difference in speed is not worth

00:13:53   the price of buying a brand new laptop.

00:13:55   Your laptop is fine.

00:13:57   So I think that the truth of this product is

00:14:00   it's primarily for the holdouts, right?

00:14:03   Lots of people who bought the,

00:14:05   maybe that 2018, or 2019 MacBook Pro 15

00:14:10   that they rolled out, or one prior to that,

00:14:13   but like an Intel MacBook Pro, late model,

00:14:16   Still pretty good, still pretty new,

00:14:19   couldn't really justify getting rid of it.

00:14:21   Also, a lot of people talked about sitting out the M1 era

00:14:26   because they were concerned about a processor transition

00:14:28   and a lot of bumps.

00:14:29   I would argue that the processor transition

00:14:31   was actually incredibly smooth,

00:14:33   but you do get those people who are like,

00:14:36   "Mm-mm, no first-generation hardware,

00:14:39   "I'm just gonna wait."

00:14:40   I suspect a lot of those people said that

00:14:42   and then they saw the reviews of the M1s

00:14:43   and they're like, "Okay, nevermind."

00:14:45   But I think that there are also people out there

00:14:47   who are like that.

00:14:48   But the most likely scenario is,

00:14:50   you just bought a laptop in 2019.

00:14:52   It's fine.

00:14:55   And you just bought it.

00:14:56   You're not in the market for a new laptop.

00:14:59   Those are the kind of people

00:15:00   for whom the M2 MacBook Pros make most sense, right?

00:15:04   Because there, you're still getting what we talked about

00:15:07   15, 14 months ago in late '21,

00:15:11   which is the enormous leap that you get

00:15:14   going from Intel to Apple Silicon, that you still get.

00:15:17   And then the leap is just that much further

00:15:20   because it's M2 instead of M1.

00:15:22   But otherwise, yeah, these are really familiar,

00:15:26   recognizable laptops because they're just,

00:15:29   this is unlike the MacBook Air

00:15:33   because it changed its physical appearance

00:15:37   when it went to M2.

00:15:39   This is a speed bump.

00:15:41   This is what an Apple Silicon speed bump looks like,

00:15:45   which is everything gets a little bit better,

00:15:48   but it's not revolutionary in any way.

00:15:51   It doesn't need to be.

00:15:52   The revolution happened 15 months ago.

00:15:55   It was pretty great, and this is still pretty great.

00:15:57   - I would say Apple pulled a bit of a magic trick on me

00:16:00   with the Pro and Max chip, right?

00:16:02   Because the M1 to the M2 is about 12% faster, right?

00:16:07   Like I remember when the M2,

00:16:09   like the straight up M2 MacBooks came out.

00:16:12   - Yeah. - MacBook Airs.

00:16:13   It was like, oh, this is a little bit faster,

00:16:16   but it's not like, you know, I remember at the time

00:16:18   we were saying like, oh okay, like,

00:16:20   maybe that's what this is gonna be like,

00:16:22   it's a little bit faster, you know,

00:16:24   but the way that they tricked us is,

00:16:26   they just put more cores in than they did last time.

00:16:29   And so now you get 20 to 40% faster on some tasks,

00:16:33   depending on the task, I thought it was very smart,

00:16:35   and it surprised me, the difference.

00:16:37   I was expecting a similar from the like M1 Pro to M2 Pro

00:16:42   that we got M1 to M2, but it's more than that.

00:16:44   - An M1 core is about 1700 Geekbench

00:16:47   and an M2 core is about 1900.

00:16:49   So that's 12%.

00:16:50   - Yep.

00:16:51   - And that's true through everything

00:16:55   because an M1 core and an M2 core,

00:16:57   they are what they are, right?

00:16:59   Like it's just core count 'cause they did,

00:17:02   that's one of the interesting things they did with this

00:17:04   is they did four of these efficiency cores,

00:17:09   and then you get six or eight of the performance cores.

00:17:14   - P cores and E cores, there's upgrade in snow,

00:17:16   you know what I mean?

00:17:16   - So the four means that you're gonna get,

00:17:21   and battery life we can talk about,

00:17:23   'cause battery life is so complicated,

00:17:24   but I did manage to drain the battery in two and a half hours.

00:17:28   But here's the thing, having those four efficiency cores

00:17:32   means that most of the work you do on this Mac

00:17:37   is not gonna run the performance cores ever, right?

00:17:42   'Cause it won't need to,

00:17:44   which means that that's why it gets really good battery life

00:17:48   in regular use is because if you're not stressing it out,

00:17:52   it's just sitting there going,

00:17:53   boop-a-doop-a-doop-a-doop with its four cores,

00:17:56   a quad core processor that's pretty fast.

00:17:59   It's not a performance fast,

00:18:02   but it's pretty fast and very low energy.

00:18:05   And so anytime you need more, it's not gonna feel slow.

00:18:09   It will send something to the performance cores,

00:18:12   but having four efficiency cores means

00:18:16   that it could do a lot before it even breaks a sweat.

00:18:19   And that is where the battery life is coming from.

00:18:21   And then yes, there's this cumulative effect that happens.

00:18:24   It's not one-to-one, you don't add a second core and double

00:18:27   and then add a third core and fourth core,

00:18:29   and then it's quadruple.

00:18:30   Like it doesn't work quite like that.

00:18:32   it's not quite that efficient.

00:18:34   But yeah, every core that gets added,

00:18:36   especially every performance core that gets added

00:18:38   or every GPU core that gets added makes it that much faster.

00:18:42   So if you've got 32 GPU cores, it's that fast.

00:18:46   And if you've got 38 GPU cores, it's that fast.

00:18:49   And that's just, this is how I was talking to Dan Morin

00:18:53   about this on the Six Colors Podcast for members.

00:18:55   And we were talking about how we've swapped

00:19:00   kind of like one complexity for another

00:19:02   'cause it used to be like i3, i5, i7, megahertz,

00:19:05   all the clock speed of the Intel processors, all that stuff.

00:19:09   And now we don't have that.

00:19:11   Apple doesn't talk about speed with M1 and M2 at all,

00:19:15   but there are these core variations, right?

00:19:18   Like the low-end model that's got too few or CPU cores

00:19:22   or the GPU configuration differences that happen.

00:19:27   And it's funny 'cause they have these names,

00:19:30   M2, M2 Pro, M2 Max, but, and they could make it like,

00:19:35   well, they mean something.

00:19:37   M2 means this many cores in this many GPUs.

00:19:39   M2 Pro means this many cores in this many GPUs.

00:19:42   And M2 Max means this many cores in this many GPUs.

00:19:45   But then they do that binning thing where they're like,

00:19:47   "Well, no, not really."

00:19:48   I mean, the M2 Pro starts with this one

00:19:50   with two fewer cores, and then you can pay for more cores

00:19:52   and the GPU cores can be a little bit, or it can be a lot.

00:19:55   And that's where the new complexity is

00:19:57   and the Apple Silicon world is Apple letting you

00:20:00   vary some of that stuff.

00:20:03   But that's the stuff that directly relates to performance.

00:20:05   'Cause it's all based on just core count,

00:20:07   how many more of these are there?

00:20:09   - Yeah, I think it was just,

00:20:12   this is the thing that I hadn't really conceived of yet,

00:20:16   that they do have some level of flexibility

00:20:19   in how they want these chips to be,

00:20:21   by the amount of cores they decide to put in them.

00:20:25   and they can scale it up or down,

00:20:28   depending on the power of the core itself.

00:20:30   Let's imagine a world where the M3 core on its own

00:20:34   is like 20% faster than the M2.

00:20:36   Well then you don't need to add so many, right?

00:20:39   You don't need to necessarily increase the core count

00:20:42   for the M3 Max to get a significant boost over the M2 Max.

00:20:46   And so they have that flexibility there,

00:20:48   which I guess Apple loves, right?

00:20:50   Because now they were able to make

00:20:52   year-over-year improvement on like revision is like 18 months right like

00:20:57   also since the forms a little less I think they were planning on this being a

00:21:01   12 month I think so right thing right back in November it would have been 12

00:21:05   or 13 months but but it's a little bit longer yeah that they've basically for

00:21:09   some people have made this a year-over-year desire for upgrading

00:21:14   because they can get their work done with a 20% speed improvement or whatever

00:21:19   So I just think that that's kind of fascinating

00:21:22   that they have those tools available to them now,

00:21:24   which they wouldn't have been able to have before

00:21:26   with Intel.

00:21:28   - Yeah, I think that's a very small audience,

00:21:31   but it is important.

00:21:32   - But it's there though, right?

00:21:33   - For whom performance, money is no object,

00:21:35   performance is what matters, right?

00:21:36   And so that's what I, when I was saying,

00:21:38   those are the people who will always pay more

00:21:40   for more performance no matter what,

00:21:42   because it matters either in terms of their time

00:21:44   or in terms of the amount of, you know,

00:21:47   the high end level of their work.

00:21:48   - Sure, that's true.

00:21:50   I think most people who buy this laptop aren't those people,

00:21:52   but those people do exist.

00:21:54   - I liked in your review that you made a big kind of like,

00:21:59   basically half of it, talking about like,

00:22:01   all right, if you're coming from an Intel Mac now,

00:22:03   because you didn't want the first ones of these,

00:22:05   here's what you'll get.

00:22:05   Like, I like that perspective a lot.

00:22:07   Like, I have an M1 Max MacBook Pro.

00:22:11   I'm not gonna upgrade to this, there's no need.

00:22:13   But there are people that will,

00:22:15   and I just think it's interesting

00:22:17   that I wasn't expecting them to do anything

00:22:19   with this machine that would make that a real desire

00:22:23   for people, but there are interesting gains

00:22:26   that you can get from the speed increase that they've got.

00:22:29   But anyway.

00:22:30   - Yeah, and the memory bandwidth and the fact

00:22:31   that the 92, or 92?

00:22:35   - 96.

00:22:36   - 96 max RAM.

00:22:37   - Yeah.

00:22:38   - Like those things are all there,

00:22:39   and those people are there.

00:22:40   I just, I mean, this is the question,

00:22:43   this is why I wrote the three different reviews,

00:22:45   essentially, within my review.

00:22:46   'cause the question is, who's this for?

00:22:49   And I think Apple wants to show off Apple Silicon

00:22:52   and quite rightly so.

00:22:54   It wants to show off how high-end work

00:22:58   can be done on these things.

00:22:59   And so good for them, right?

00:23:00   Like it's absolutely true.

00:23:02   And if you're chasing performance

00:23:03   and you want the most RAM and the RAM,

00:23:05   the memory bandwidth and the...

00:23:08   They have this thing that they always demo

00:23:11   where it's like, here's a 3D model

00:23:13   that can't be opened on a PC laptop,

00:23:15   but they can open it and work with it pretty fast

00:23:18   on a Mac laptop.

00:23:19   And that's entirely down to the fact that

00:23:21   they have all that RAM

00:23:22   and they have all that GPU performance.

00:23:23   It's like, it's a very impressive demo.

00:23:25   So I want to give them credit for that.

00:23:27   And I know there's an audience out there for that.

00:23:30   That said, I mean, most people who buy this thing

00:23:34   aren't gonna be that audience.

00:23:35   They're not, they're gonna be people.

00:23:38   I mean, we can talk about the psychology

00:23:39   of who buys the MacBook Pro.

00:23:40   'Cause that was the other,

00:23:41   one of the other sections of my article was,

00:23:44   why would you buy this essentially,

00:23:46   given everything else that's out there?

00:23:48   And there are lots of good reasons, right?

00:23:50   But not everybody who buys it,

00:23:52   most people who buy it are not gonna be,

00:23:53   well, I really need the 96 gigs of RAM

00:23:55   and I really need all those GPU cores.

00:23:58   They're gonna be people who are like,

00:24:00   I want the nicer screen.

00:24:02   I want more ports.

00:24:04   I want more external display configurations.

00:24:07   I hear from those people a lot about

00:24:08   how frustrated they are about the MacBook Air,

00:24:10   not doing multiple external displays.

00:24:13   Like those are the reasons that I think a lot of people

00:24:16   will buy the MacBook Pro or have bought the M1 MacBook Pro.

00:24:21   And those are good reasons too.

00:24:22   I think we could ask ourselves the question,

00:24:26   why Apple made the decisions it did

00:24:30   about some of this stuff to say,

00:24:31   we're gonna wrap all of our GPUs and all of our CPUs

00:24:35   and all of our Pro stuff and our screen

00:24:37   and all the best stuff is gonna go up here

00:24:39   and it's two grand or up.

00:24:42   and we're gonna withhold most of that stuff

00:24:45   from the MacBook Air.

00:24:46   And that's just,

00:24:47   that's how we're differentiating our line.

00:24:50   But that's the decision they made.

00:24:51   And the result is, you know,

00:24:53   you might choose it for performance,

00:24:55   but there are plenty of other reasons

00:24:57   to choose the MacBook Pro.

00:24:58   And I think at this point,

00:24:58   performance across the line is so great,

00:25:01   like even in the air,

00:25:03   that most people who buy a MacBook Pro

00:25:07   are probably buying it for the features

00:25:10   that aren't raw speed,

00:25:12   which is just, I think that's interesting.

00:25:14   - So you wrote that piece before, right,

00:25:17   where you referenced the first review

00:25:19   and you said like Mac Pro in your backpack kind of thing.

00:25:23   - Yes.

00:25:23   - And I think we're back in that situation again

00:25:26   because I was actually excited

00:25:28   and then also kind of surprised

00:25:31   that the MacBook Pro with an M2 Max

00:25:34   beats out the M1 Max Max Studio, right,

00:25:38   in basically every test you put it through

00:25:42   based on your charts.

00:25:43   - Yep.

00:25:44   - I just found that kind of interesting because,

00:25:48   I mean, I don't know why,

00:25:49   but there's just something about,

00:25:50   well, if you built this machine and it sits on a desk

00:25:53   and it's not a laptop

00:25:54   and you can do whatever you want with it,

00:25:56   that maybe it would still just have an edge in some way.

00:26:00   And I think about the fans and stuff and like, you know?

00:26:03   - Well, let's be clear here.

00:26:06   The Max Studio Ultra is the fastest Mac around.

00:26:11   But there's also the one that I've got,

00:26:15   which is the Max.

00:26:17   And you can get a Max chip in the MacBook Pro too.

00:26:20   And at that point it's an M2 Max versus an M1 Max.

00:26:23   And if you keep everything else equal,

00:26:25   it's gonna be a little bit faster on the laptop

00:26:27   because it's the newer generation of the chip.

00:26:32   So yeah, I mean, this is,

00:26:35   Mac Pro in your backpack is still a real thing here.

00:26:38   That the power that you can get,

00:26:41   especially if you choose the high-end configuration

00:26:44   of a MacBook Pro, the power, the huge amounts of RAM,

00:26:49   so many GPU cores, like if you're somebody in that market,

00:26:53   that's kind of what we always thought of

00:26:55   as the Mac Pro essentially market.

00:26:58   And it remains the case that at 14 or enormous 16 inch sizes,

00:27:05   you can have what we always used to think of

00:27:08   as Mac Pro power and stick it in a bag

00:27:10   and walk away with it and do work on it on battery.

00:27:13   And Apple always makes this point,

00:27:15   but I think it's a good one that PCs tend to,

00:27:18   the high-performance PCs tend to only be able

00:27:20   to put out that amount of power when plugged in.

00:27:23   Whereas the Mac laptop will do it

00:27:25   whether it's plugged in or not.

00:27:27   So full power, even if you're like in your backyard

00:27:31   in a chair doing your whatever it is

00:27:33   that requires that amount of RAM and that amount of GPU,

00:27:36   your 3D modeling or whatever.

00:27:38   It's a nice day outside and you're working from home

00:27:40   and you've decided to go in the backyard

00:27:42   and take your MacBook Pro with you.

00:27:44   And you've got that Mac Pro power sitting there.

00:27:47   It's absolutely the case and it's quite remarkable.

00:27:51   And that's why I think that Apple is right to make hay

00:27:55   with the super high-end applications of this thing,

00:27:58   even though it's mostly,

00:28:00   I guess we could say mostly aspirational

00:28:02   for the vast number of people who will buy it.

00:28:06   It still feels good, right?

00:28:07   To know that like, the thing I'm getting

00:28:09   has no limits essentially,

00:28:10   even though I'm not gonna push the limits.

00:28:12   Like this is what the pros can use too,

00:28:14   and it's the same tool.

00:28:15   And that's always been an aspect of buying,

00:28:19   you know, high-end Apple products

00:28:21   if you're not a high-end user.

00:28:23   - So Apple quote,

00:28:23   "This is the best battery life in any laptop ever."

00:28:26   I think he got like an extra hour for both Pro and Max.

00:28:30   I think I heard, you can correct me if I'm wrong,

00:28:33   but you said you drained it in two hours?

00:28:35   - It's about two and a half, two and a half hours.

00:28:37   I went from full to empty.

00:28:39   I ran all the CPU cores at 100%.

00:28:43   - Okay, how do you do that?

00:28:45   - I used Xcode benchmark.

00:28:49   I could have used anything,

00:28:50   but Xcode benchmark is a nice benchmark test

00:28:53   that tests Xcode compile.

00:28:56   And there's a Unix command you can use

00:29:01   that is, what is it, repeat?

00:29:05   Something like that, where you basically,

00:29:07   when it's done, do it again.

00:29:08   And then, so I just ran it.

00:29:11   And I had an activity monitor open,

00:29:14   and all the cores were full CPU cores.

00:29:18   And that was enough to kill it in two and a half hours.

00:29:21   But again, the point is, this is not scandalous.

00:29:24   The point here is that if you take another computer

00:29:27   and do that to it, and I didn't,

00:29:29   so I don't have a comparison here,

00:29:30   it will kill it a lot faster than that.

00:29:32   That's literally, nobody works like that.

00:29:34   Nobody has 100% CPU on all cores at all times on a laptop.

00:29:39   And if they do, their laptop doesn't last two

00:29:43   and a half hours.

00:29:44   But I wanted to make that point too,

00:29:46   that like these are the extremes.

00:29:48   I didn't hit the GPUs.

00:29:48   The GPUs probably would have killed it even faster.

00:29:51   And if I'd been able to flood both of them,

00:29:53   it would have killed it even faster than that.

00:29:55   But the point here is when Apple quotes 22 hours,

00:29:59   they're quoting for sitting in the TV app,

00:30:01   watching a movie that's using one of their hardware decoders

00:30:05   to decode it and play it.

00:30:07   And as a result,

00:30:09   almost nothing else is happening on that system.

00:30:11   When they quote 14 hours or 16 hours of wireless web,

00:30:15   they're quoting a scripted test where they're using Safari

00:30:19   to load a bunch of websites and click around and scroll

00:30:22   and then click around again and all of that.

00:30:24   And that's automated, which is great.

00:30:26   But again, it is a, I would say very non-intensive test.

00:30:31   It's more intense than watching a video

00:30:34   and not doing anything else.

00:30:35   But again, you can see it just dropped from 22 to 16

00:30:39   or 20 to 14 or whatever their numbers are.

00:30:42   But like you lose a lot just there.

00:30:44   So the truth is everybody's profile is different.

00:30:47   Everybody's using different apps to do different things

00:30:50   with, and keeping in mind that when you're sitting there

00:30:53   staring at your screen and nothing is happening

00:30:55   and you're not rendering something or whatever,

00:30:58   it's crashing everything to zero, right?

00:31:01   It's like, all the performance cores go off,

00:31:04   you know, the efficiency cores start to go off

00:31:07   because there's nothing happening

00:31:08   and your battery use goes way down when that happens too.

00:31:12   So it becomes a very difficult to say,

00:31:15   here's what your battery is in this thing,

00:31:18   here's what you're gonna get.

00:31:19   it will be somewhere between 22 and two and a half hours,

00:31:24   depending on, or probably two hours or an hour and a half,

00:31:27   depending if I'd killed it in a different way.

00:31:29   And that's just, you know, again,

00:31:30   the point here is that based on,

00:31:32   by holding those tests that Apple does level,

00:31:36   Apple's able to say,

00:31:37   to express that this one has more battery power.

00:31:41   And that is a function of both its battery life

00:31:43   and the efficiency of its chip

00:31:44   and the efficiency of the software

00:31:46   to drive that chip efficiency even further

00:31:49   by being really smart.

00:31:51   I suspect that the four efficiency cores

00:31:54   are a part of this.

00:31:55   Like I said at the beginning of this whole conversation,

00:31:57   like I think that's gonna be a big part of it

00:31:59   just because so much of what we do

00:32:03   is not pushing performance.

00:32:06   And so having four cores that can just do stuff

00:32:08   with very little effort, very little energy expended

00:32:12   is a big win.

00:32:15   But again, I didn't do one of those things.

00:32:17   I didn't have time to do anything

00:32:18   other than run the battery killing test.

00:32:20   But it does have an enormous battery.

00:32:24   And if you get the 16-inch, it's even more enormous.

00:32:28   And that's why it's so big and so heavy.

00:32:29   But it's also a huge battery.

00:32:32   And if you are on a lot of airplanes

00:32:34   or out in the desert at a video shoot or something,

00:32:37   then it's gonna be valuable for you to have it.

00:32:40   - The exact numbers, I don't know how useful they are,

00:32:43   right, for those reasons.

00:32:44   but just knowing that it's more than the last one,

00:32:48   is, you know, that's kind of what you really need to know.

00:32:50   Right, like, oh that's great, like there's more.

00:32:52   You know, like I already like my battery life

00:32:54   and my laptop, now there's more of it?

00:32:56   Awesome, always want more of it.

00:32:57   There are no colors still.

00:33:00   Still just silver and darker silver.

00:33:04   No midnight, no nothing like that.

00:33:06   I just feel like we need to mention it,

00:33:07   you know, something we care about.

00:33:09   - No colors in professional-ism.

00:33:12   Nope.

00:33:14   very impressive machine, right?

00:33:17   As you rightly pointed out,

00:33:18   these were already great going into it

00:33:20   and now it's even faster than it was before.

00:33:22   Like there's no complaints here.

00:33:24   - Yeah, it's spectacular.

00:33:27   As somebody who has chosen,

00:33:31   I mean, I have a Mac studio and a MacBook Air, right?

00:33:33   So I've made both of these choices

00:33:34   and I see the value in both of them.

00:33:36   I would say I love the M2 MacBook Air.

00:33:38   I think it's a great value.

00:33:40   I think that it's not quite half the price

00:33:42   'cause that's the M1,

00:33:44   But I think the MacBook Air is the best Mac

00:33:48   for most people to buy.

00:33:49   I really do.

00:33:51   But I detail in the article,

00:33:54   I mean, and we've talked about it here,

00:33:55   there are lots of reasons to get a MacBook Pro.

00:33:57   And the funny thing I think is that it's enormous,

00:34:01   truly enormous power

00:34:04   is maybe not the most important one for most people.

00:34:09   It's all the rest, right?

00:34:12   It's the battery and the ports and the external,

00:34:17   and that beautiful screen, right?

00:34:21   Like those are all the other reasons that you get it.

00:34:23   And I think those are all perfectly reasonable reasons.

00:34:25   Plus it's Mac Pro power if you wanna go down that path.

00:34:29   But at the same time, when then I opened my MacBook Air up,

00:34:34   I was like, oh, what a relief.

00:34:36   And I know it's slower, but I do the kind of work

00:34:39   where I can stress a computer out.

00:34:42   That's why I use a Mac studio.

00:34:44   I've got a lot of audio and video stuff that I do

00:34:46   that having the extra power is great.

00:34:49   But that said, I'm not working in an environment

00:34:52   like some people are where a MacBook Air

00:34:55   is just not gonna be able to do it, right?

00:34:58   It's just gonna be slower, right?

00:34:59   All the video stuff I do, all the audio stuff I do

00:35:02   will just be slower on a MacBook Air,

00:35:05   but I could still do it.

00:35:06   So I can have my primary computer be a MacBook Air

00:35:08   if I wanted to and plug it into my studio display,

00:35:12   what I would lose is the speed of every time I do a,

00:35:15   you know, isotope RX, D reverb or D noise that takes,

00:35:20   you know, it would take whatever, four times as long,

00:35:23   or who knows, a lot longer to do it on the MacBook Air

00:35:26   than it would to do it on the Mac studio.

00:35:28   But my point is that like,

00:35:31   most people don't even do what I do.

00:35:34   And so I think that the Air is, in terms of like,

00:35:38   I have friends who call me and they're like,

00:35:40   "My kid is buying a laptop and what should they buy?"

00:35:43   And one of the fears that comes up a lot is,

00:35:46   "Is this not gonna be capable

00:35:48   "of doing what they need to do?"

00:35:49   There still is a fear out there that like,

00:35:52   the cheapest Mac laptop is not gonna be powerful enough

00:35:57   for their kid to do whatever they wanna do.

00:35:59   It's gonna be kind of a loser system.

00:36:01   And there were eras when that was more true.

00:36:04   And that's why I think about it in these terms,

00:36:06   because what I tell them now is, no, it's not a problem.

00:36:11   Like the 999 M1 MacBook Air will be more power

00:36:17   than your kid is ever gonna need.

00:36:20   And yes, I would know if their kid was a 3D artist

00:36:24   and their employer would probably buy them

00:36:26   that computer for them.

00:36:28   But like, you see what I mean?

00:36:29   Like there was a time when you might have to worry

00:36:31   that the cheap Mac was just not, you know,

00:36:34   you're so compromised,

00:36:35   It was just not gonna do what you wanted it to do.

00:36:37   And we have left that, especially with Apple Silicon,

00:36:40   we have left that era behind.

00:36:42   So that's not a reason to get a MacBook Pro.

00:36:45   The reason to get a MacBook Pro is, yeah,

00:36:47   you need that power or you need,

00:36:48   like, I think I'm not gonna blame you.

00:36:50   I'm not gonna judge anybody, right?

00:36:52   But I'm especially not gonna judge you if you said,

00:36:53   "Well, I don't really need the power,

00:36:55   "but I want that screen,

00:36:56   "and I'm willing to pay $2,000 to get that screen."

00:36:58   It's like, I totally get it.

00:37:00   The screen is amazing.

00:37:02   It is absolutely better than the one in the MacBook Air.

00:37:05   it looks great, you got those extra ports, that's super convenient, you want to attach your laptop

00:37:12   to two external displays on your desk, all of these are also great reasons. This episode is

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00:39:01   Let's talk about the Mac Mini now then.

00:39:06   The Macbook Pro wasn't the only new machine.

00:39:08   There is a new Mac Mini as well which features both M2 and M2 Pro as configurations.

00:39:15   Your partner in crime Six Colors, Dan Morin, had got a review of the M2 Mac Mini and has

00:39:21   written a review and published it as well.

00:39:24   I like that Dan makes the argument that this Mac Mini is really kind of two products where

00:39:32   it is both the base level, I think very affordable and capable M2 machine which is available

00:39:39   is really compatible for all kinds of work similar to how you were talking about the

00:39:43   MacBook Air right like it is the a machine for whoever has a monitor already right like

00:39:49   this would do a great job for you. But then you add the M2 Pro, which is a mid-range prosumer

00:39:55   machine that can go that extra mile and I think kind of starts bumping up against the

00:40:00   current studio as well, right? It's like a really fascinating take on this computer being

00:40:05   quite different from each other depending on the spec that you get.

00:40:08   Yeah, I don't, I wouldn't say bump up. I feel like it slides in. Okay. Actually, I think,

00:40:13   I think it's, the Apple's vision here has been revealed

00:40:18   a little bit, right?

00:40:19   Which is, there are, it's not two computers, Myke, it's four.

00:40:24   - Whoa, so many computers.

00:40:26   - It's four computers.

00:40:28   It's the M2 Mac Mini, the M2 Pro Mac Mini,

00:40:32   the M2 Max Max Studio, or M1 Max Max Studio,

00:40:35   and the M1 Ultra Max Studio.

00:40:36   I feel like if you look at it as four,

00:40:39   they're all kind of, they all have their prices

00:40:41   and their kind of performance profiles.

00:40:43   And they really are four different computers.

00:40:46   So the Mac mini we're talking about

00:40:47   is one different computer, but it's really two

00:40:49   because it's got that, you know, 599 M2 model.

00:40:53   And then you go up to whatever it is 1299, 1399.

00:40:56   I didn't write the review.

00:40:57   I don't know 1299.

00:40:59   - A million?

00:40:59   - Then you get the M1 Pro or M2 Pro

00:41:05   which is our first pro desktop,

00:41:06   pro M whatever pro on a desktop system.

00:41:10   We've only really had the M1 iMac

00:41:12   and then the Mac Studio with Macs and Ultra.

00:41:16   And so it fits this little kind of like,

00:41:18   Apple has obviously M2, M2 Pro, M2 or M1,

00:41:23   Macs, these names are so hard.

00:41:25   Obviously M whatever no name, M whatever Pro,

00:41:30   M whatever Macs and M whatever Ultra means something to Apple

00:41:36   And with these two/four products now,

00:41:41   you've got all of them in a compact desktop.

00:41:45   And I think that's meaningful.

00:41:47   And if you look at the prices,

00:41:49   Mac Studio is a premium over the Mac Mini

00:41:51   at the high end still,

00:41:53   because you're going up to Macs from Pro.

00:41:58   And so you spend an extra several hundred dollars

00:42:01   to get up there.

00:42:02   - And you can go wild, right?

00:42:04   - You can spec one of these Mac Minis out to $4,500

00:42:08   if you want to. - Yeah, but you can spec,

00:42:09   right, which is true, and I see those arguments sometimes,

00:42:11   and I'm like, well, yeah, but have you seen

00:42:13   what you can spec a Mac Studio out to, right?

00:42:15   Like if we're specing them up, they both go up.

00:42:18   It's not like the Mac Mini shoots past the Mac Studio.

00:42:21   I think that's like, right, if you're like,

00:42:22   I have to have two terabyte internal,

00:42:24   then the prices you're comparing between the two

00:42:26   are very different prices, but they still are separate

00:42:30   because one of them has got a Pro processor

00:42:32   and one of them's got the max processor.

00:42:34   I mean, how many people really need a Mac's processor

00:42:38   over a Pro processor, I think is a good argument to make.

00:42:41   Like, would I, if they had offered the Mac Studio

00:42:46   and the Mac Mini side-by-side last year,

00:42:51   would I have bought a Mac Studio?

00:42:53   Maybe, but I certainly would have done what Dan is doing,

00:42:58   which is seriously considering whether the Pro chip

00:43:03   is plenty for me, and it probably would be.

00:43:07   But I mean, I'm happy to have a Max

00:43:10   because it's just, you know,

00:43:12   it's gonna serve me well for a long time.

00:43:14   But in terms of what I do day to day,

00:43:15   Pro probably would have been just fine.

00:43:18   - So where I'm looking at the charts again here.

00:43:20   So the Mac Mini with the M2 Pro,

00:43:24   it does beat out the Max Studio.

00:43:29   I'm assuming this is your Max Studio, right?

00:43:32   - Yeah, it's my max studio.

00:43:33   - In like a couple of things, I think, what is it GPU,

00:43:36   where it kind of starts to fall down, but in CPU tasks.

00:43:40   - Well, I mean, 19 GPU cores versus 32 GPU cores, it's,

00:43:44   you know.

00:43:44   - It's not gonna have much of a competition.

00:43:47   So I'm saying like, it's interesting though, right?

00:43:49   Like you could, I mean, considering the type of work

00:43:53   that you're doing.

00:43:55   - Exactly, I'm not using those GPU cores, am I?

00:43:57   - No, you're not, you're not doing that.

00:43:59   So the difference is, so my M1 Max

00:44:01   has eight performance cores and the Mac Mini Pro,

00:44:05   you can configure it to have eight performance cores

00:44:08   and then the four efficiency cores

00:44:09   instead of the two on my studio.

00:44:12   So, yeah, I mean, that's a good example

00:44:15   where an M2 Pro, like the one Dan tested,

00:44:19   it's fast, it's Geekbench CPU multi-core score

00:44:23   is faster than my Mac studio, absolutely.

00:44:26   I want to make a claim here and I want to test it against your knowledge.

00:44:32   I think the Mac Mini, the standard M2 Mac Mini might be the best value Apple has ever

00:44:39   offered in a Mac.

00:44:41   They dropped the price by $100 from the M1 Mini and it's faster.

00:44:47   Made it more powerful and I kind of can't believe the price of it.

00:44:55   very surprising to me. You get an 8 core CPU, 10 core GPU, 8 gigabytes of RAM, 256 gigabytes

00:45:03   of storage. Like yeah, the RAM and storage aren't great, but it's $600.

00:45:08   Yeah. Keeping in mind, somebody did the calculation like the original Mac Mini that was $4.99

00:45:15   like 750 in today's dollars. So it's, it may be, it may be pound for pound, dollar for

00:45:24   processor, dollar for Geekbench score. Somebody could do that math by the way. But it's not

00:45:30   me today. That it might be the best deal that they've ever done. It's entirely possible.

00:45:36   Like, I, I am kind of blown away by it. Like I wanted to make sure we mentioned it because

00:45:40   you know, I spend a lot of time talking about how things get more expensive all the time,

00:45:43   But this is not only is it so good they made it cheaper and if you're in education it's $4.99.

00:45:50   Right like this is a great computer for that money like a truly excellent machine that can be dropped

00:45:58   into a bunch of scenarios right like it's you know the Mac Mini was created to try and get people to

00:46:05   switch from Windows right like that was its thing. Initial yeah. Yeah bring your own keyboard monitor

00:46:11   or a mouse, is that what it was?

00:46:13   Was that screen and mouse?

00:46:15   - Display, keyboard and mouse, yeah.

00:46:17   - And I feel like this might be trying to do that again.

00:46:22   The Apple Silicon transition,

00:46:25   I think is turning a lot of heads, right?

00:46:27   Like the power and it's like interesting

00:46:29   and Apple Silicon is cool, right?

00:46:30   Like I see it a lot in YouTubers, right?

00:46:32   Like people talk about it a lot.

00:46:33   They even started their fake keynote video

00:46:35   with a bunch of content creators,

00:46:37   including friend of the show, Austin Evans, right?

00:46:38   Like they put a bunch of clips in.

00:46:41   of like people are talking about the Apple Silicon chips.

00:46:44   These are a big deal in tech right now.

00:46:47   So it's like, why not make a really competitive

00:46:49   entry-level Mac again, that can be just be dropped

00:46:52   into an existing PC setting?

00:46:54   And now you've got this great value Mac mini to do that.

00:46:57   I think it's really interesting.

00:46:58   And I do wonder if that played any hand

00:47:01   in the decisions that they made in this machine.

00:47:04   - I don't know.

00:47:06   - Because they didn't change anything on it.

00:47:07   Design's the same.

00:47:08   They didn't, as Dan points out,

00:47:10   They didn't put any ports on the front or anything like that which is a shame.

00:47:14   Because the Max Studio got those ports on the front which would have been lovely.

00:47:18   The colors, they actually reduced this.

00:47:20   There's less colors now.

00:47:22   It's just silver.

00:47:23   There's no space grey.

00:47:25   I'm surprised that the overall size of the thing, the overall form factor is basically

00:47:32   the same.

00:47:33   I think there's some small changes in the physical size but it still looks like, put

00:47:38   those two things next to each other.

00:47:40   It just looks like a Mac Mini.

00:47:43   I guess that's part of why they can make it cheap.

00:47:45   I don't know.

00:47:46   I think it is.

00:47:47   Yeah, it's a MacBook Air stuck inside a Mac Mini enclosure.

00:47:50   I haven't given a lot of thought to the M2 base Mac Mini because it is just, yeah, I'm

00:47:55   glad it exists.

00:47:56   It's kind of amazing that they refreshed it.

00:47:59   And everything I said about the MacBook Air goes for the Mac Mini, right?

00:48:02   It's literally the same, except not a laptop, but like performance wise, it's exactly the

00:48:06   same.

00:48:07   fan so it'll it'll be it'll get keep cooler longer and to run a little bit

00:48:12   faster in the long run if you're really extending it out it's a lot of computer

00:48:16   in a pretty low price and a little small container and a little bit low price

00:48:21   yeah Dan did a lot of work and couldn't get the fan to go and I appreciated the

00:48:26   the lengths that he went to to putting his Apple watch up to the thing to see

00:48:30   if the decibels changed he installed an app like a fan monitoring app to make

00:48:35   sure there was in fact a fan inside. It seems like you couldn't get this fan to go. Which

00:48:40   I don't know why but I feel like I have a personal vendetta against the fan inside of

00:48:44   the Max Studio. I don't know. I don't know why it bothers me but like it bothers me that

00:48:48   it's in there and it's apparently from people I know including you and Steven is running

00:48:52   all the time the fan inside of the Max Studio. And there were a bunch of other machines that

00:48:57   this doesn't happen. So like I'm really intrigued as to why it does what it doesn't why it seems

00:49:03   to have so much headroom for cooling compared to upper max.

00:49:08   Yeah, I mean, I use it every day and I don't care.

00:49:12   So I'm not saying you should care.

00:49:14   Well, I'm just saying it's funny that you don't use it and have a problem with it and

00:49:19   I do and I don't but...

00:49:20   Well, my problem, it's not like a problem.

00:49:22   It's like it is a curiosity to me that I feel like I don't have an answer for.

00:49:26   - It is mysterious that it seems to always run

00:49:29   and that it has the ability to cool an M1 ultra configuration

00:49:34   but even if you get the cheapest M1 max configuration,

00:49:41   the fan still runs.

00:49:43   I think that the cooling is different in the two units too.

00:49:46   So it's like that M1 max one with the fan noise,

00:49:49   it's strange, right?

00:49:51   Like, why is it always making noise?

00:49:56   - I find that, I just find that strange.

00:49:58   Like, it's not like I feel like they shouldn't do it,

00:50:00   but like, I just, I feel like at the moment,

00:50:02   there doesn't really seem to be an answer.

00:50:03   Like, we wanted this at a time.

00:50:05   Maybe this will make sense in like three years, right?

00:50:08   The ultra-- - Or maybe never.

00:50:09   - So bananas, or maybe never.

00:50:12   - Maybe never, but I did ask Dan about noise.

00:50:16   He was like, there isn't any, so, you know, that is,

00:50:20   And that's the case with that laptop too.

00:50:23   The only time I could get the fans to turn on

00:50:25   on the MacBook Pro is when I ran graphics tests.

00:50:29   - Right.

00:50:29   - CPU at a hundred percent for two and a half hours,

00:50:33   it got a little warm, fans never came on.

00:50:37   Or at least, well, I can't say that.

00:50:39   Fans were never audible.

00:50:40   I can say that.

00:50:43   The GPU test, the fans were audible.

00:50:46   Very, very much audible.

00:50:47   'Cause the GPUs are the ones that get really hot.

00:50:49   the CPU's don't get so hot.

00:50:51   The GPU is really burning up

00:50:53   and they're the ones who need the cooling.

00:50:55   - And I love the Apple Silicon era.

00:50:57   It's great.

00:50:59   - It's pretty wild, right?

00:51:00   I mean, we will talk later in the show

00:51:04   about what might be next for the Apple Silicon era

00:51:06   'cause we're always looking ahead.

00:51:09   But this has given us, with the Pro and the Max,

00:51:12   I mean, the lesson we learned here

00:51:13   with both of these computers is that

00:51:17   with M2 Apple's really just sort of like

00:51:20   pushing it forward a bit.

00:51:21   It's not, nor should we expect that there'll be a revolution

00:51:25   in the second generation, right?

00:51:26   That doesn't happen.

00:51:28   But everything got pushed forward

00:51:30   and there were little tweaks here and there,

00:51:31   but Apple also made a bunch of design decisions in the M1

00:51:34   that essentially carried forward to the M2.

00:51:36   So when we shift gears in a little bit

00:51:41   and talk about the future,

00:51:43   that's one of the things to think about is like,

00:51:47   will there be a more, at some point there will be more

00:51:50   dramatic change, I think, in things that Apple throws

00:51:53   into the M3 or M4 or M5, whatever.

00:51:57   But M2 is really just about keeping it going,

00:52:00   keeping the trains running,

00:52:02   getting these out there refreshed,

00:52:05   which is, again, very admirable.

00:52:07   I love that they were originally planning on this

00:52:10   basically being a year.

00:52:11   It's a little bit more than that, it turns out,

00:52:13   but not a lot more.

00:52:14   Here's a faster MacBook Pro,

00:52:16   and everybody who was sitting on the fence saying,

00:52:18   I can't justify buying the M1 MacBook Pro,

00:52:20   I still have this Intel MacBook Pro,

00:52:22   now is another, you have another opportunity now

00:52:26   with a new MacBook Pro if you want.

00:52:28   - So why don't we switch gears

00:52:32   from talking about some exciting product revisions

00:52:36   to maybe a less exciting product revision

00:52:40   with the brand new HomePod?

00:52:43   - Yeah.

00:52:45   a new HomePod. There is! Is that what you were looking for? Yes! Believe it or not,

00:52:52   there is one. You know, you can look at it and you might not know. It is now powered

00:52:57   by the S7 chip from the Apple Watch. It is apparently a little bit smaller. It has a

00:53:03   slightly bigger kind of like screen on the top. It has the same temperature and humidity

00:53:09   sensor that the HomePod Mini does and now all of these are exposed to HomeKit as of

00:53:13   of iOS 16.3, which I think comes out this week.

00:53:17   And there is a Thread Radio inside,

00:53:19   so it was all set to be a full on meta controller

00:53:22   and it's $299.

00:53:25   - Yeah, so for all of us who anticipated

00:53:27   that the HomePod needed a rethink,

00:53:30   the answer is it didn't get one.

00:53:31   It got a refresh and it looks like it got turned

00:53:37   into sort of the brains of a HomePod mini

00:53:40   and that they de-contented, right?

00:53:44   They removed some stuff from it.

00:53:47   Presumably the new HomePod is cheaper for Apple to make.

00:53:52   So it's back.

00:53:55   I think it's okay.

00:53:58   I still have HomePods that work and are fine.

00:54:00   And I like them, the big HomePods.

00:54:02   I think that having the minis

00:54:04   and no big HomePods was weird.

00:54:06   It's not like Apple to have a modified product

00:54:09   without other products in the family.

00:54:12   It was the HomePod mini and that's all there was.

00:54:15   But I think that the biggest thing that's not like Apple is,

00:54:18   it's not like Apple to have a product for $99

00:54:20   and not a more expensive product to upsell you to.

00:54:24   And now they do with the big HomePod.

00:54:27   And I haven't heard it, I don't have them.

00:54:30   Apparently some journalists were allowed into a secret room

00:54:33   somewhere to listen to them, but only in that one room.

00:54:38   And I don't know, I'm sure they sound fine.

00:54:41   I'm sure they sound good.

00:54:42   The old HomePod sounded great.

00:54:44   And it's still stereo pair for 600 bucks is pricey,

00:54:48   but you know, Apple stuff is often pricey.

00:54:52   At least the HomePod minis also exist.

00:54:54   Beyond that, I don't know.

00:54:55   I don't know what to think about it.

00:54:56   Personally, my HomePods still work great.

00:54:59   Would I buy new HomePods if my HomePods died?

00:55:01   I don't know, maybe.

00:55:04   Maybe, I like having them there.

00:55:05   Even though I could turn on my Apple TV

00:55:07   and I've got speakers in my living room

00:55:10   that I could use instead that are better.

00:55:12   I find myself playing music on the HomePods a lot

00:55:16   because they're just there and addressable and sound good.

00:55:20   So I might, I might look around at other options,

00:55:25   other speaker options,

00:55:27   but I might get a new set of HomePods

00:55:29   if my HomePods died.

00:55:31   - Yeah, Chris Walsh at The Verge got some time with it.

00:55:34   Wasn't allowed to take any photos of it.

00:55:36   - Wasn't allowed to have a side by side comparison.

00:55:38   - What did we call it when the original one came out

00:55:40   that I was allowed in like the hidden Grove or something?

00:55:43   - You had a similar deal, right?

00:55:44   Where it's like, you can listen to this thing,

00:55:47   but nothing else.

00:55:48   - You can't tell details of where you were

00:55:50   or what the environment was or what you saw.

00:55:53   You can only talk about what you heard in this room

00:55:55   and that seems to have happened again.

00:55:57   - Remind me though,

00:55:59   did they play it in comparison to other devices?

00:56:02   - They did.

00:56:04   - Right, okay.

00:56:05   my demo they compared it to other devices.

00:56:07   But they didn't do that this time it seems. And Welch says it sounds about as good as

00:56:12   the original to his ear but of course he couldn't do a side pod. He said he had to run back

00:56:17   to the office so you can guess where they were and listen to the original and try and

00:56:23   be like does it sound the same? I'm disappointed in case you couldn't tell. I'm very disappointed

00:56:30   this home pod. I really want more from Apple than what they've done here, especially for

00:56:37   $300. The home pods are great, but I don't think they're $300 great right now. And I

00:56:46   don't think that they've really put enough into this thing to make it compelling. It

00:56:53   is really now, it's just a big home pod mini and I kind of feel like, well, I would just

00:56:57   get HomePod minis and it will be way cheaper.

00:57:01   - I think there's nothing wrong with making a bigger version

00:57:04   that sounds better for people who want to spend more money

00:57:06   and get something that sounds better.

00:57:07   And I like that they're both functionally the same

00:57:09   beyond that, I think that's all good.

00:57:11   I wish it was cheaper because I do think

00:57:16   that they're best in stereo pairs.

00:57:18   And I'll say what I did when the original HomePods came out,

00:57:20   which is I kind of wish they would sell it as a bundle,

00:57:24   right, like buy two and save,

00:57:26   but that doesn't seem to be part

00:57:28   of their initial announcement either.

00:57:30   And 300, right, like triple the price of the HomePod mini

00:57:35   is, that's a big leap, but obviously they have some

00:57:40   confidence that they can sell them that way.

00:57:43   I think it's really interesting

00:57:44   'cause the HomePod original is perceived

00:57:46   as being kind of a failure of a product

00:57:48   and yet they're really kind of going back there again.

00:57:50   It's $50 less, but 299 was a price

00:57:52   that was readily available at the end for the HomePod.

00:57:55   So at least it's cheaper, but I don't know.

00:57:57   It's interesting.

00:57:59   A lot of rumors out there.

00:58:00   This is not the rumor roundup,

00:58:01   but a lot of rumors out there, a lot of reports

00:58:03   that there are other Apple home products in the works.

00:58:07   And so maybe this is Apple finally kind of like showing

00:58:10   that they need to get all their ducks in a row.

00:58:12   They need to get that new home pod out.

00:58:14   They need to get ready for Matter.

00:58:16   And then they can start rolling out

00:58:17   some other products too, who knows?

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00:59:53   While we head on down to the room around up and see what Sheriff Mark Gurman has got for

00:59:57   us maybe to lift my spirits about Apple's home strategy, Mark Gurman is reporting that

01:00:03   Apple continues to work on a set of devices to expand their smart home lineup. "The

01:00:09   push into smart displays will start with a tablet product, essentially a low-end iPad,

01:00:14   that can control things like thermostats and lights, show video and handle facetime. The

01:00:19   product could be mounted on walls or elsewhere using magnetic fasteners, positioning it as

01:00:24   more of a home gadget than a regular iPad. Apparently as well, a version of the Apple

01:00:29   TV that would combine a speaker and camera is still being worked on but is unfortunately

01:00:33   facing setbacks.

01:00:35   Oh, my soundbar, come on.

01:00:37   iPad, he's describing it as an iPad,

01:00:40   essentially an iPad, right?

01:00:42   - I think that's just a way to describe it, right?

01:00:45   - I think so too, right?

01:00:47   Now we've speculated about this a lot.

01:00:49   I love hearing about this.

01:00:51   Let me tell, as somebody who's had an Amazon Echo Show

01:00:53   in his kitchen for a while now,

01:00:55   there's a lot of opportunity to do better.

01:00:59   And that Apple could really,

01:01:02   I really want Apple to make this product.

01:01:04   My guess is that it's based on iPad hardware,

01:01:08   that it is gonna be able to run apps like an iPad,

01:01:12   but that they're gonna make it have a kind of like a better

01:01:17   kind of far away visual mode like these other products have

01:01:21   so that you can control it via voice, via Siri

01:01:26   and have it be, you know,

01:01:29   have it be able to show you stuff

01:01:31   in a way that like an iPad lock screen

01:01:33   that expects you to be holding it in your hands, doesn't.

01:01:37   So whether that's a more Apple TV-like mode

01:01:39   or it's a different kind of lock screen mode or--

01:01:41   - Widgets.

01:01:42   - Yeah, I mean, I don't know what the form is.

01:01:45   And again, everything needs to be scaled up

01:01:47   because you're standing four feet away from it

01:01:49   instead of holding it in your hands.

01:01:51   But all the pieces, I know we've said this in the past,

01:01:54   all the pieces are there.

01:01:55   Apple has all the pieces to make a product like this.

01:01:58   They just have to have the will to make it.

01:01:59   And it sounds like this is what this product is gonna be.

01:02:02   It's gonna be something that is, you know, put it on,

01:02:05   here's a stand you can put it in,

01:02:07   here's an attachment to the wall you can put it on

01:02:10   and that they're trying to use it

01:02:12   based on kind of iPad technology.

01:02:14   Sounds good.

01:02:16   I'd love to see it.

01:02:17   - The thing that I want them to do

01:02:19   is what Google's doing with the Pixel tablet,

01:02:23   where you can get this base

01:02:26   and if you put it on the base, it turns it into a home hub.

01:02:28   So like, you can just take your existing tablet

01:02:32   and just turn it into one of the home products.

01:02:34   I think that's super cool.

01:02:36   I would like them to do that.

01:02:37   However, I don't imagine they'll do that

01:02:39   because why sell a bass when you can sell a whole device?

01:02:42   Right?

01:02:43   You know?

01:02:43   But then it would give people something to do

01:02:45   with their older iPads, which I think would be awesome.

01:02:49   Right?

01:02:50   But nevertheless, I really want both of these products.

01:02:53   This is exactly the types of things that I want.

01:02:55   Me and you have spoken about this idea of this like

01:02:58   soundbar, Apple TV, FaceTime thing, a bunch.

01:03:02   I really hope that they can get this product together

01:03:04   because I think it would be amazing.

01:03:07   But I really do want an Apple focused screen.

01:03:12   It's got all my photos in it already to show me memories.

01:03:15   - Yep.

01:03:16   - Or got all my calendars in there

01:03:17   or like everything's in there for me.

01:03:20   And like, I think for most of all listeners, right?

01:03:22   They're using some version of services that Apple provide.

01:03:25   I would love the stuff that I have in iCloud

01:03:29   to be available to me on a screen,

01:03:32   do smart stuff, right?

01:03:33   Like you have a voice or face recognition

01:03:36   to show the correct things for the correct person

01:03:38   in the house when they're looking at it.

01:03:39   Like I would love all of that kind of stuff

01:03:42   in a product made by Apple,

01:03:44   rather than a product made by somebody else.

01:03:47   - Yeah, yeah, I agree.

01:03:48   And you could implement this, if you're Apple,

01:03:51   you could implement this as a device that was running tvOS,

01:03:54   you could implement it as an iPad OS,

01:03:56   kiosk mode of some kind.

01:03:58   It's unclear what it's doing here,

01:04:02   but those are implementation details, right?

01:04:03   Somebody has presumably been working for years

01:04:05   trying to figure out the best way

01:04:07   to make a product like this

01:04:08   that is at a price point that Apple wants to hit,

01:04:11   but with widgets and Siri and all the cloud services

01:04:16   and honestly apps, whether it's tvOS apps or iPadOS apps,

01:04:20   the pieces are here for something great.

01:04:23   And every time that I wonder why can't I do that thing

01:04:26   on my Echo Show,

01:04:27   or why is it showing me another stupid ad?

01:04:30   And the answer is 'cause I paid very little for it

01:04:31   'cause it's an Amazon product designed to deliver me ads.

01:04:34   Don't get me started.

01:04:36   That I wish for something better

01:04:38   and think of how nice it would be

01:04:40   if I could put some iOS widgets on my screen

01:04:45   and maybe get my notifications there

01:04:47   and use Siri to play music and, you know,

01:04:51   which I can do with the Amazon Assistant too.

01:04:54   But like, I don't know,

01:04:56   there's a better experience to be had there

01:04:58   and Apple's got all the pieces.

01:04:59   So I would be very excited if Apple decided, yes,

01:05:01   actually an assistant with a screen is a good idea, right?

01:05:06   'Cause the HomePod, my frustration

01:05:09   that I'll go into at a later time,

01:05:10   my frustration with the Amazon assistants,

01:05:13   I could unplug it and move my HomePod there, right?

01:05:17   But I don't, because there is value in having a screen.

01:05:20   There really is value in having a screen.

01:05:22   Even if it's just being able to glance

01:05:24   and see what the timer's status is,

01:05:26   There's value in having a screen.

01:05:27   So I hope Apple will play there one day.

01:05:29   - Mark Gellman has also reported

01:05:32   that Apple is currently planning to follow up

01:05:34   on their mixed reality headset now with a cheaper version

01:05:38   in either 2024 or 2025,

01:05:40   before they were to release a full AR focused product.

01:05:45   The AR product is apparently on hold

01:05:48   due to technical issues in development.

01:05:50   I mean, translation, this thing sounds like

01:05:52   it's gonna be really hard to make,

01:05:54   and turns out it is.

01:05:56   - I mean, I'm not surprised by this at all.

01:05:59   I feel like what we're seeing with Apple

01:06:02   and these products is a pretty traditional

01:06:06   new product category curve, right?

01:06:10   Which is like, or plot, however you wanna say it,

01:06:13   where it's like, well, here's our first one

01:06:15   and it kind of works and it's overpriced

01:06:17   and not a lot of people who aren't enthusiasts

01:06:21   are gonna want it, but here it is.

01:06:23   And then the next one is,

01:06:24   "Well, we made one that's cheaper

01:06:26   and more people are gonna want it,

01:06:28   but we're still working on it."

01:06:29   And you gotta go several steps out from there

01:06:32   before you get to,

01:06:33   these are glasses you can wear out in the world

01:06:35   and they overlay things into your field of vision, right?

01:06:37   Like that's a way harder product to make.

01:06:39   That's like somebody with an Apple II in 1977

01:06:43   saying, "We've got the iPhone on our roadmap."

01:06:50   Right?

01:06:51   It's like, hmm.

01:06:53   I even see it as something like, imagine if Apple started with the iPad,

01:06:58   and the next year we're like, "Oh, we're going to have an iPhone next year."

01:07:01   Like, that technology, you know, the iPad much bigger,

01:07:04   like you could, in theory, make it a chunkier device.

01:07:07   But then, having something that can just be available all the time,

01:07:10   battery life can be put in somebody's pocket, right?

01:07:13   Like, the miniaturization required, if they had done it the other way around,

01:07:16   would have been really hard.

01:07:17   And that's kind of what this feels like, right?

01:07:19   where you start off with a mixed reality headset

01:07:21   for whatever that's gonna be.

01:07:23   It's gonna be expensive and big and chunky

01:07:25   so it can have a bigger battery life in it.

01:07:27   The idea that then somebody could just put a pair

01:07:29   of glasses in their face and just live their regular life,

01:07:32   like that is going to be incredibly hard.

01:07:35   - Yeah, it's not one, two, three, right?

01:07:37   That's not how those steps work.

01:07:38   It's like one, two, three, four, five,

01:07:40   cloud, question mark.

01:07:42   - Exactly.

01:07:42   - 83, it's a long way off.

01:07:45   So of course, I mean, technical issues in development,

01:07:49   I just read that as this is technology

01:07:53   we have not yet invented,

01:07:54   or that we have not yet invented at a size or weight

01:07:59   or power consumption or all of the above

01:08:02   that it makes it a product that can exist today.

01:08:05   And that, I mean, that's the case.

01:08:07   Apple was prototyping touchscreen things,

01:08:09   including like iPhone-like touchscreen things

01:08:13   way before the iPhone.

01:08:15   But it was always like, how do we, you know,

01:08:18   how do we get this to work in anything small?

01:08:21   And it took time to reach that point where it was like,

01:08:24   now we can make a product that people want.

01:08:27   And that is the case, and it's not just Apple,

01:08:29   it's literally everybody.

01:08:30   Like this glasses that you wear that show you the world,

01:08:34   but also paint things on your vision with details on that,

01:08:38   like that is science fiction tech that we're not there yet.

01:08:41   Or if we are there yet, it's with like a thing

01:08:44   that is connected to 80 other things.

01:08:46   It's like that fusion that happened

01:08:50   at the Lawrence Livermore Lab where they're like,

01:08:52   well, it took an enormous thing and we actually,

01:08:55   to run it all, it took this huge amount of energy,

01:08:58   but the actual fusion experiment generated power.

01:09:00   It's like, it's a very large asterisk.

01:09:03   It's like, this is very exciting,

01:09:04   but it's not something you can actually apply right now.

01:09:07   This is a little like that,

01:09:08   where it's like they may have a lot of this tech,

01:09:10   but not in a way that it'll fit on your face.

01:09:13   (laughs)

01:09:14   Like, if you've got eight people behind you

01:09:16   and like a cable going to a van

01:09:18   that is following you down the street,

01:09:20   like, okay, but that's not what the product has to be.

01:09:24   - Yeah, it's like that fusion, as you say,

01:09:27   like that fusion reaction wasn't net positive, right?

01:09:30   Like if you encountered everything that it took

01:09:33   to get it to the point where it can generate the energy.

01:09:36   - To get it to the point, right?

01:09:37   And it's experimental,

01:09:38   and I get that's what happens in early tech.

01:09:40   And the encouraging thing about the fusion reaction

01:09:41   is that when they got it there,

01:09:43   they, this technique generated more than they put in.

01:09:46   And that is a milestone, right?

01:09:47   But you can't forget the rest of it,

01:09:49   which is that there's, that there,

01:09:52   it's not like you can put one in your basement, right?

01:09:56   That part, that product does not exist

01:10:00   and may not exist if ever for decades.

01:10:02   And there's just a long way to get there.

01:10:05   - Quote, "Apple is aiming the lower price

01:10:07   of the follow-up mixed reality device

01:10:09   by using chips on par with those in the iPhone

01:10:12   rather than components found in higher end Mac computers.

01:10:16   So I don't think this is a version one, version two situation.

01:10:20   - No, this is Apple reality pro

01:10:22   and then Apple reality one, I think is what Mark Gurman said

01:10:25   that it's calling it.

01:10:26   So what they're doing is they're gonna make

01:10:28   the aspirational thing that costs a fortune

01:10:30   that nobody's gonna buy.

01:10:31   And then they're gonna follow it up.

01:10:33   And whether they say it at the time,

01:10:34   this is clearly the strategy, which is like,

01:10:36   "Oh, there will be another version

01:10:38   that people will actually buy."

01:10:40   Just not yet, right?

01:10:41   There'll be a cheaper version.

01:10:42   it's like Oculus, what is it?

01:10:43   The Oculus strategy is similar, right?

01:10:46   Where they have, they still are selling the Quest 2,

01:10:49   which is their cheap one,

01:10:50   and then they've got their expensive nice one.

01:10:52   - Yeah, and I mean, for them,

01:10:53   it was the other way around, right?

01:10:54   Where they had the Rift, and then they had the Quest.

01:10:57   Right, the Rift needed the PC,

01:10:59   then they brought the Quest and made it easy.

01:11:01   Now, the Rift doesn't exist anymore,

01:11:04   but now they have the Quest Pro, right, as you say.

01:11:06   So like, they kind of flipped it around again,

01:11:08   but there's still the cheap, the expensive,

01:11:11   I really wonder if Apple would be so bold as to say this

01:11:16   when they introduced the product.

01:11:18   - It would go against everything that they've done

01:11:23   in the past, but I would certainly, again,

01:11:25   if I were one of those people in a meeting,

01:11:27   again, they would recognize me as an outsider

01:11:30   and throw me out immediately.

01:11:31   - Immediately.

01:11:32   - If I were there and they somehow thought

01:11:35   that I had something to say, that's what I would say is,

01:11:39   "You know, you need to reassure people

01:11:41   "that this isn't the whole story

01:11:43   "because you're gonna get lambasted for it."

01:11:46   - This might be the one time to do it.

01:11:48   - Yeah, you only get one chance to make a first impression.

01:11:50   Developers wanna hear what you have to say.

01:11:52   And so you should commit

01:11:54   that this is just the beginning for us.

01:11:56   We have other products that are coming

01:11:59   that are also VR, AR, XR, whatever you wanna say, products.

01:12:04   Lean into that.

01:12:06   Lean into that this is step one of a whole,

01:12:09   just like how you leaned into it's an area of interest

01:12:12   years before in order to prime the pump, just say it.

01:12:15   You don't have to say next year we're gonna announce

01:12:17   the Apple reality one,

01:12:18   but say we have other products in the pipeline,

01:12:23   this is gonna be big.

01:12:25   And we anticipate that in the next couple of years,

01:12:27   lots of people are gonna have devices

01:12:30   running on this platform.

01:12:31   That's what I would say that they should probably say,

01:12:34   is just go out with confidence,

01:12:36   don't pre-announce those other products,

01:12:38   but give a nod and say, yeah, that we're in on this.

01:12:40   This isn't it.

01:12:41   This isn't a sink or swim kind of thing

01:12:43   with this one product.

01:12:44   We're in it and there will be other products coming

01:12:47   that are great that people are gonna want.

01:12:49   And in a few years, there's gonna be so many people

01:12:52   using this platform that you get on board today, right?

01:12:55   That's the argument.

01:12:56   - Yeah, I agree with you.

01:12:57   I would say this is maybe one of the only times

01:13:00   where they could straight up say,

01:13:01   we have another product next year

01:13:02   that's gonna be different in value

01:13:04   and this is a sneak peek of it because-

01:13:05   - They could, they could.

01:13:06   But I mean, like I said, they can couch it a little bit

01:13:08   and it would be okay.

01:13:09   - I don't think that the user base

01:13:12   of this expensive headset would change

01:13:15   depending on if they did that or not.

01:13:18   Like the type of person that's gonna buy this.

01:13:21   - Sure.

01:13:21   - If it's $3,000, right?

01:13:23   The type of person that's buying this

01:13:25   is not now gonna go, "Oh, okay then, I'll wait."

01:13:28   - I'll wait for the one in two years that's cheaper, yeah.

01:13:30   - It's either people, sickos like me, right?

01:13:35   who want it and like I would be that person no matter what, right?

01:13:39   Like whether I do in this show or not, if I wasn't doing this show,

01:13:42   I'd still be the person that wanted it and if I could afford it, I would do it.

01:13:45   And then also developers, right?

01:13:49   And like developers aren't going to be like,

01:13:51   "Oh, they're bringing out another thing next year that's cheaper."

01:13:54   Like if you have an idea, you're not going to be like,

01:13:55   "I'll wait for that one then."

01:13:56   It's like, no, you want to be ready for when the cheaper one comes.

01:14:00   And so I don't think they're going to do it this way.

01:14:03   I'm saying I could imagine this being one of the only times

01:14:06   where they could get away with it.

01:14:08   And I don't think it would hurt this product's chance

01:14:12   in the market either way, to be honest.

01:14:16   - Probably not.

01:14:17   And like I said, I actually,

01:14:18   I think Apple needs to give developers

01:14:20   especially confidence that this platform matters.

01:14:22   - Yep.

01:14:24   Yep.

01:14:24   Digitimes is expecting a MacBook Air powered by an M3 chip

01:14:30   to be released in the second half of 2023.

01:14:34   It is expected that this could be Apple's first

01:14:36   three nanometer Apple Silicon chip.

01:14:39   This is interesting 'cause it kind of does

01:14:42   and doesn't line up with the rumors time-wise

01:14:45   at the 15 inch model.

01:14:47   There have been lots of rumors to suggest

01:14:49   it would occur in Q2,

01:14:52   but I think personally this all kind of wraps up.

01:14:55   This is the next revision.

01:14:57   - I mean, they could do an M3 MacBook Air

01:15:00   a year after doing, or a little more after the M2 MacBook Air.

01:15:04   Remember the M2 MacBook Air was delayed,

01:15:06   so maybe they turn around and put an M3 in it pretty fast.

01:15:09   The scenario that does make more sense

01:15:12   is that this is the 15-inch model

01:15:14   that they've been talking about.

01:15:16   But it's possible we'll get a 15-inch M2,

01:15:18   and then in the fall,

01:15:19   we'll get a revision of the 13-inch model that's an M3.

01:15:24   It's possible.

01:15:25   I mean, who knows, right?

01:15:27   Like who knows how their schedules are shaping up.

01:15:31   I think what's more interesting here is the idea

01:15:33   that this could be the Apple's first three nanometer chip.

01:15:37   This is a theory that I've had for a little while now

01:15:40   that I'm still wondering about,

01:15:42   which is given that the A series chips release every year

01:15:46   and the M series chips release every year and a half,

01:15:49   that we're going to see a skip at some point.

01:15:52   If this is the first three nanometer Apple Silicon chip,

01:15:56   that suggests that the M3 is based on,

01:15:58   I would guess on the A17,

01:16:01   which will be in this falls iPhone

01:16:03   and is supposed to be on a three nanometer process.

01:16:07   And given the rumors or reports,

01:16:10   there are reports that the A16 had the GPU cores

01:16:14   that they tried to do next gen GPU cores

01:16:16   and they failed them and went back to the old ones

01:16:18   because they used too much power.

01:16:20   This plays into that, right?

01:16:22   Which is the Mac wants to leap over that.

01:16:24   It's almost like the A16 is a lost generation at that point.

01:16:27   It's also possible that it's based on the A16,

01:16:32   but made at the three nanometer process

01:16:33   with the new GPU cores,

01:16:35   because they'll work fine on the Mac.

01:16:37   But I don't know, at that point, it's almost an A17 anyway.

01:16:41   So maybe that's the truth, is that the M3 is the A17.

01:16:45   They're gonna come out together this fall, essentially,

01:16:48   and the Mac will...

01:16:49   And when I was talking before about like,

01:16:52   just progressing from the M1 to the M2,

01:16:55   the M3 feels like that's where you might see apples first

01:16:59   sort of like, "Ha ha, but wait,

01:17:02   see what we did with this next generation of chip

01:17:05   in a way that the M2 doesn't do

01:17:07   because it is more just a little bit

01:17:10   of an improvement over M1."

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01:17:49   but we're talking about Upgrade Plus here.

01:17:51   And on today's Upgrade Plus,

01:17:52   I'm gonna quiz Jason on his seeming new distaste

01:17:57   for his Echo Show because I have an Echo Show

01:18:00   and have my own distaste for my Echo Show.

01:18:03   So I wanna dig into that today.

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01:18:29   and get some awesome content for you.

01:18:31   It is time for Ask Upgrade.

01:18:34   Jem said, "You mentioned previously in the loss

01:18:41   of future revenue for Twitter app developers."

01:18:43   So like we're talking about that as like

01:18:45   Twitter apps gone away, Twitter apps like gone, gone now,

01:18:47   like that's gone, it's done,

01:18:49   Twitter changed the API rules, it's over.

01:18:52   So we were talking about the idea that these businesses,

01:18:56   that's it for them now with these products,

01:18:58   that is a thing that's in them.

01:19:00   But as the, and Jim goes on to say,

01:19:02   but as the Twitterrific team state in their blog post,

01:19:05   if people who paid demand refunds because of the app

01:19:08   that they paid for is now useless, it could devastate them.

01:19:12   - For icon factory and Tapbots both, they are,

01:19:15   and anybody else who's got a paid Twitter client,

01:19:17   If people ask for their money back, which is their right,

01:19:22   but it's gonna happen all at once,

01:19:24   and it's going to, yeah, it will be an enormous loss

01:19:29   of money for these very small businesses, yeah.

01:19:34   - And this is a very complicated situation, I feel like,

01:19:38   because, as you say, right, like, people paid for an app.

01:19:45   It is not the user's fault that this happened.

01:19:47   This isn't the developer's fault either,

01:19:49   but it's not the user's fault, right?

01:19:51   And so this is one of those really weird decisions,

01:19:55   like really weird situations where I, being who I am,

01:19:59   lean on the idea of that the developers keep the money,

01:20:03   like they're these small businesses, et cetera, et cetera.

01:20:07   But there are a lot of people that,

01:20:08   "Well, I pay for this too, right?

01:20:10   "It's very complicated.

01:20:13   I would ask our listeners, if they're thinking about this,

01:20:17   to just write this one off as like, "Oh, well."

01:20:21   Because if you used and loved this app,

01:20:24   do you really want to put the developer in a tough situation?

01:20:27   Because you know, listening to this show,

01:20:31   what's gone down here.

01:20:34   I would give it to them as a tip or whatever.

01:20:36   Like, here you go.

01:20:38   Thanks for your work.

01:20:39   Goodbye.

01:20:40   But I would not, if somebody wants a refund

01:20:43   and requests a refund, I'm not gonna say you're wrong

01:20:45   for doing that because it's a business, right?

01:20:48   You are a customer, it's a transaction

01:20:50   to provide a service.

01:20:52   It's not your fault that it went away.

01:20:53   It's really weird, right?

01:20:54   This is a very strange situation.

01:20:57   I mean, and it gets worse by the fact of like,

01:20:58   if you ask for a refund in the App Store,

01:21:01   that 30% that Apple takes, I think there is precedent

01:21:05   that they can make you as the developer

01:21:07   refund the full amount and Apple won't give back

01:21:09   30% which is even stranger and more complicated and weird.

01:21:15   David says I'm ready to update my desktop mac and the new mac mini looks great to me.

01:21:20   My current iMac which is a retina 5k 27 inch late 2014 has a lovely big monitor that I

01:21:26   would love to keep using. From everything that I've seen I'm out of luck and will have

01:21:30   to discard this monitor and buy something new. Have you heard of any way possible to

01:21:35   to reuse my iMac monitor with a modern Mac mini or Mac Studio?

01:21:39   - The answer is essentially no.

01:21:41   The way that the retina 5K displays on iMacs were built,

01:21:48   they don't have target display mode,

01:21:51   which used to be a thing long ago.

01:21:53   They're moving a lot of pixels

01:21:55   and they just were, they were never designed,

01:21:57   as iMacs largely have not been designed to be monitors.

01:22:00   They're computers, they're not monitors.

01:22:03   If you really want to,

01:22:06   you can use something like the Duet Display.

01:22:11   There are some apps that'll do it.

01:22:14   - Luna Display.

01:22:16   - Luna Display.

01:22:17   No, Duet Display is another app, right?

01:22:18   Isn't that a different app?

01:22:20   - They're both app, but I think Luna Display

01:22:22   does the hardware thing.

01:22:23   Luna Display is software.

01:22:25   - Right, I think that may be right.

01:22:29   There's definitely hardware with a Luna Display

01:22:32   That's part of the secret sauce there.

01:22:35   So there are apps that will let you take your Mac

01:22:37   and put it on a second Mac as a screen.

01:22:42   But keep in mind, one, you gotta boot up your iMac

01:22:44   and run that.

01:22:45   It's still your iMac.

01:22:46   It's still running there.

01:22:48   And two, you know, you're not gonna be satisfied

01:22:51   with the quality 'cause it's gonna be laggy

01:22:54   or it's gonna be lower quality

01:22:55   'cause it is streaming video to a faux monitor

01:22:59   like from your Mac.

01:23:02   So you could try it and you might like it.

01:23:05   My guess is you won't like it.

01:23:08   And so that's why I taken this question to be,

01:23:12   you know, reuse my iMac monitor with a Mac mini

01:23:16   or Mac studio as like the primary display.

01:23:19   That's why I say no.

01:23:22   'Cause the answer is yes with an asterisk

01:23:25   and the asterisk is you're not gonna like it.

01:23:29   You can try it, you're not gonna like it.

01:23:32   It's not gonna be satisfying to you.

01:23:33   Just like using it with an iPad would not be satisfying.

01:23:37   You could do it, you're not gonna like it.

01:23:40   - Joe asks, "Do you think that an M2 Max

01:23:44   and M2 Ultra Max Studio update could be imminent

01:23:48   now that we have the MacBook Pro updates?

01:23:51   Or could the Max Studio be another one and done proposition

01:23:54   like the iMac Pro?"

01:23:57   Joe, you're asking the question that we're all asking.

01:23:59   - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

01:24:01   Whose way, is this just Mac Studio owners or like?

01:24:04   - I mean, I think everybody is asking, right?

01:24:05   Like is the Mac Studio a one-off

01:24:07   that was just sort of like to get us to the Mac Pro

01:24:09   or is the Mac Studio going to continue

01:24:10   to be a part of Apple's product line?

01:24:12   I feel like there's a perfectly good place

01:24:15   for the Mac Studio.

01:24:16   I don't know how the sales have done, right?

01:24:17   Like I feel like I said earlier in this very show

01:24:21   that there's this space where you've got the Mac Mini

01:24:23   and the Mac Studio and they fit, the four of them.

01:24:26   fit across the line.

01:24:28   What a Mac Pro does to that, I don't know.

01:24:30   The Mac Pro is gonna be so much more expensive

01:24:32   than the Mac Studio.

01:24:33   So my feeling is that there is probably room

01:24:37   in the product line for a Mac Studio

01:24:38   and that the Mac Studio is actually gonna appeal

01:24:40   to more people than a Mac Pro.

01:24:42   But I could also see Apple saying, "Nah, it's not worth it.

01:24:46   Mac Mini is good enough."

01:24:48   And then Mac Pro.

01:24:49   So we'll see.

01:24:51   But I hope that they'll just keep revising the Mac Studio.

01:24:54   They went to the trouble of making it.

01:24:56   So just keep doing it.

01:24:59   - And Eli asks, "What movies are you most excited for

01:25:03   in 2023?"

01:25:04   - Oh, right, is this a draft or how do we do this?

01:25:09   - You could just list it.

01:25:10   Just list the ones I have a list, you have a list.

01:25:13   I think we can just go through the lists.

01:25:14   - All right, the sequel to the animated Spider-Man

01:25:25   Spider-Verse movie is coming out across the Spider-Verse part one, I guess, or maybe it's they're gonna have to they're making two of them

01:25:30   Yeah, but they have different names

01:25:32   I don't remember what the second one is but like across the Spider-Verse and then there's another one Spider-Verse

01:25:37   So Into the Spider-Verse was the one this is the one starring, you know

01:25:41   Miles Morales and it's animated and it's great

01:25:43   It's one of the great one of the best animated movies of all time there. I said it easy. Yep

01:25:47   so another one of those so yes, please I

01:25:51   I'm encouraged by the trailer for the new Indiana Jones movie. So and I love Indiana Jones. So I'm looking forward to that very much

01:25:58   The Marvel movie I'm looking forward to the most is the Marvels which is the Captain Marvel Ms. Marvel team-up movie

01:26:05   I'm gonna mention a DC movie here. I haven't seen anything about it, but I love the comics of it, which is Blue Beetle

01:26:13   Which is about a kid in Texas named Jaime Reyes who gets the this bizarre alien

01:26:21   tech suit that allows him to be a superhero. The comics were really fun. If they can capture

01:26:28   the vibe of this kid trying to figure out how to be a superhero and deal with his family and his

01:26:32   friends and this weird alien suit, uh, could be great. I don't know. I'm gonna put on my list for

01:26:38   now. Very intrigued. And I realized the other week that Dune Part 2 is coming out this year, which

01:26:47   When the first part came out, I thought, you know, they didn't produce them simultaneously.

01:26:51   It was going to be forever before they got part two into theaters, but it's apparently

01:26:55   going to happen, uh, toward the end of the year.

01:26:57   So I'm excited about that because I really liked Dune part one.

01:27:00   So bring on part two.

01:27:02   So I'm also all in on Across the Spider-Verse.

01:27:05   Cannot wait for that movie.

01:27:06   The trailer looks so sick, like, can't wait.

01:27:09   Um, I'm, you know, for me, I'm all in on Marvel movies, so I'm excited for Ant-Man.

01:27:14   - I've got an update here.

01:27:18   Across the Spider-Verse is the third movie.

01:27:21   Beyond the Spider-Verse is the second movie, I think.

01:27:26   I don't know.

01:27:28   Or is it the other way around?

01:27:29   - No, I think Beyond the Spider-Verse is the next.

01:27:31   - Beyond the Spider-Verse is 2024.

01:27:35   Across the Spider-Verse is 2023.

01:27:36   So confusing.

01:27:38   Part one and two were less confusing than this.

01:27:41   All right, anyway, sorry.

01:27:42   So yeah, Ant-Man, I'm in.

01:27:45   The Marvels, I'm in.

01:27:46   Guardians of the Galaxy 3.

01:27:47   Can't wait for all of them.

01:27:49   I'll be there open at night.

01:27:50   I love it.

01:27:51   OK.

01:27:52   That's just how I am.

01:27:53   For me with Marvel movies, I love them, right?

01:27:55   And I don't want spoilers.

01:27:56   So I just go open at night to each one of them

01:27:58   and have a great time.

01:28:01   I'm super excited for the Super Mario movie.

01:28:03   It looks great.

01:28:04   Like, I love it.

01:28:06   The clip that they had at the Game Awards

01:28:08   completely solved me.

01:28:09   The trailer was good, but they played like a one minute clip

01:28:12   or something and it just looked like so much fun. I am gonna have a great time watching

01:28:15   the Super Mario movie. Can't wait. Similarly, I'm very intrigued about the Barbie movie.

01:28:22   Margot Robbie, Ryan Gosling. The trailer solved me where I was like, "Oh, okay. Now I don't

01:28:29   know what's happening." And Oppenheimer. Christopher Nolan movie about the atomic bomb.

01:28:36   Killian Murphy, like I love Killian Murphy.

01:28:39   I'm happy that Killian Murphy's finally getting

01:28:41   a full-on starring role in the Nolan movie.

01:28:44   Like he's always in 'em somewhere.

01:28:46   And I love Killian Murphy, so.

01:28:48   That's what I'm excited for this year.

01:28:50   - I read The Making of the Atomic Bomb,

01:28:54   which is a very large book, last year.

01:28:58   So I'm very interested in that,

01:28:59   because I've read a lot about that,

01:29:01   about the Manhattan Project,

01:29:02   and Oppenheimer is a particularly interesting figure.

01:29:04   So, you know, I'm intrigued by that one.

01:29:08   I didn't have that on my list,

01:29:09   but I will admit to being intrigued.

01:29:10   - This is the one where they actually did

01:29:12   like an actual bomb, right?

01:29:14   And they shot footage of an actual explosion

01:29:16   rather than using CGI?

01:29:17   - I don't think so.

01:29:19   You can't blow up atomic bombs.

01:29:21   - Not an atomic bomb.

01:29:23   - They just blew up a bomb and said,

01:29:24   look, it's atomic, pretend it's atomic.

01:29:26   - So Christopher Nolan recreated a nuclear explosion

01:29:29   without CGI for new film, according to the Guardian.

01:29:32   - Yeah, without CGI.

01:29:34   I'm gonna give you a guarantee here, there's CGI.

01:29:36   But it's nice that he blew something up.

01:29:39   - Blew something up, you know?

01:29:40   - Yep, mm-hmm.

01:29:42   - I don't know what it means,

01:29:43   but apparently he blew something up.

01:29:44   I just hear people talking about the blowing up.

01:29:46   - And then you add CGI.

01:29:47   We watched Top Gun Maverick over the weekend,

01:29:49   and we had that conversation, which is,

01:29:52   you know, is this practical or are those effects shots?

01:29:56   And my answer was, I think the answer is yes.

01:29:59   I think they did a lot of innovative photography

01:30:01   and they did a lot of aerial photography

01:30:02   and that crazy Tom Cruise was probably out there

01:30:06   in a plane somewhere, and then they took that footage,

01:30:09   and then they composited it a lot, right?

01:30:12   Like, I think both of those things can be true,

01:30:15   if you can hold that in your mind,

01:30:16   that they can shoot some amazing footage,

01:30:19   and then still need to clean it up

01:30:22   in order to make it look like it fits inside the film.

01:30:25   - I kind of don't understand

01:30:26   why people are so against visual effects.

01:30:28   Like, you see this, right? - I don't get it.

01:30:31   And I understand the mixture, right?

01:30:34   Like I think the mixture is important, right?

01:30:36   'Cause I can imagine sometimes for actors,

01:30:38   they like to be in places, right?

01:30:40   Which is I think the volume is really cool

01:30:43   because it can at least give you the impression

01:30:45   of like being in a place

01:30:46   rather than just standing in front of a green screen.

01:30:49   But like, there is like, I don't know why people get so mad

01:30:53   about practical versus special effects and I don't get it.

01:30:57   - Or practical versus like digital effects.

01:31:00   And yeah, I don't entirely agree.

01:31:02   I mean, there is an argument to be made

01:31:05   that there are movies that are being made

01:31:07   that are relying on special effects to dazzle people

01:31:10   and that the other parts of filmmaking are left behind.

01:31:13   The problem is that, I mean,

01:31:16   that is such a reductive kind of idea.

01:31:19   Special effects have been with us,

01:31:20   visual effects have been with us

01:31:21   since the beginning of film, believe it or not.

01:31:25   Todd Dzirui always likes to bring out GIFs

01:31:28   from like things from the '20s.

01:31:29   to show you VFX has been with us since the very beginning. And there are always good ones and

01:31:36   there are bad ones and there are filmmakers who know how to use them to tell a story and there

01:31:39   are filmmakers who don't know how to use them and fail to tell a story. And the tools that are being

01:31:45   used have changed but everything else remains the same. So I don't, I, yeah, I am with you. I don't

01:31:51   I don't really understand the "I'm tired of CGI" argument.

01:31:56   I do, I will say, I think that there's something

01:32:01   at the root of that argument that maybe I do understand,

01:32:04   which is that there are,

01:32:06   there's a couple of things there, right?

01:32:09   One is that filmmakers don't always,

01:32:12   or production companies or studios,

01:32:15   don't always have a good movie,

01:32:17   but they figure that if they have a bunch

01:32:20   of special effects that maybe people will come see it.

01:32:23   - Right. - That's not new.

01:32:24   That's been happening for a long time.

01:32:26   I don't know.

01:32:27   - I feel like what people are seeing is

01:32:29   that they don't like the bad filmmaking, right?

01:32:31   Like it's just bad filmmaking.

01:32:32   It's what you don't like.

01:32:34   - Yeah. - Right?

01:32:35   It's not the special effects.

01:32:36   - They try to find reasons to do that.

01:32:38   And then bad filmmaking is another thing

01:32:39   I wanted to mention, which is another problem here

01:32:41   is that sometimes it's just that the filmmakers

01:32:43   don't know how to use, you know, they get hired

01:32:46   and they've never worked on a movie

01:32:48   with a lot of special effects

01:32:49   and they don't know how to use them.

01:32:50   Also some of this stuff is like laziness.

01:32:52   Like the volume is interesting because it requires you

01:32:56   to do all of your computer production work, not all,

01:32:59   but a lot of your computer production work before you shoot.

01:33:02   And that means that it forces the filmmakers

01:33:04   to actually make the decisions and do the work

01:33:06   before they get on set to shoot.

01:33:09   I think that a lot of broken films from the modern era

01:33:13   are because filmmakers have decided

01:33:15   that they don't need to do the work upfront.

01:33:17   They can wave their hands at the VFX department

01:33:20   and say, "Fix my things."

01:33:22   They don't plan ahead.

01:33:24   And those filmmakers make bad films.

01:33:27   Shockingly, people who don't do their job

01:33:30   don't do good at their job.

01:33:33   (laughs)

01:33:34   But that's why I actually like things like the volume

01:33:37   is for those who don't know,

01:33:39   like if you're shooting on an LED wall

01:33:42   where you've got an entire 3D world

01:33:45   that moves as the camera moves

01:33:46   to make it seem like you're outside in that world,

01:33:49   all those assets have to be done and decided on in advance.

01:33:54   Whereas with a lot of stuff that's shot before

01:33:56   a green screen or a blue screen or really anywhere,

01:33:59   it allows the director to get away with being like,

01:34:03   yeah, we'll figure it out later.

01:34:04   And that's not conducive to good filmmaking.

01:34:06   So I think there's stuff that's at the roots of it

01:34:09   and then it just becomes a holy war, right?

01:34:11   Which is just like, this is stupid CGI,

01:34:13   where you see people posting,

01:34:15   over the weekend, Todd Visserie posted a thing that was,

01:34:20   somebody posting a video of Iron Man

01:34:24   from the first Iron Man movie in a scene,

01:34:27   and he said the Iron Man costume was so much better

01:34:30   when they didn't do it in CGI.

01:34:32   And Todd said, "You know the Iron Man costume

01:34:35   "in that shot is CGI, right?"

01:34:37   (laughs)

01:34:38   Come on.

01:34:39   Anyway, it's silly.

01:34:41   But anyway, all the movies that I listed

01:34:43   and that you listed will have CGI in them, I guarantee it.

01:34:46   - Back in my day, Iron Man really put the suit on.

01:34:50   - You know how many people got poisoned from the makeup

01:34:53   in "The Wizard of Oz" because it was clogging their pores

01:34:56   and they were allergic to it?

01:34:58   Well, at least one, but probably more than that.

01:35:01   They're probably very sick, covered in silver paint

01:35:04   or lion fur or whatever, right?

01:35:06   And that was 1939, it happens.

01:35:08   - If you would like to send in a question of your own

01:35:12   for us to answer on the show in Ask Upgrade, send it into upgradefeedback.com or click

01:35:16   the link in the podcast app of your choice and you can send in some feedback to us. It

01:35:22   would be great. I'm really enjoying getting our Ask Upgrade questions there. They've been

01:35:25   really great. Thank you to everybody that's done that.

01:35:29   We'll be back next week's episode. Until then, you can check out Jason's writing at sixcolors.com

01:35:33   and here he's podcasting at the incomparable.com and right here on Wheel AFM. You can listen

01:35:38   to my shows, of course, here on relay FM 2 and check out my work at cortexbrand.com.

01:35:43   You can send us your feedback and your questions at upgradefeedback.com and thank you to our

01:35:48   members who support the show with Upgrade Plus and to our sponsors this week, Capital

01:35:54   One and Electric.

01:35:55   We'll be back on next week's episode.

01:35:57   Thank you so much for listening.

01:35:58   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:36:00   Goodbye, everybody.

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