444: Greg


00:00:00   [BEEP]

00:00:00   [♫ "The

00:00:29   Couldn't we? We could be like, you know, #hellomike.

00:00:34   I mean, who cares?

00:00:35   - Isaiah says, "Do you have any plants in your office?"

00:00:38   - Interesting question.

00:00:42   The answer is no.

00:00:45   I also, Lauren was saying how we should probably

00:00:52   have more plants in our house.

00:00:53   We do have some, but we don't have that many.

00:00:56   And I left that to her because I'm not a big

00:00:59   plants in the house person.

00:01:01   Although somebody got us a cactus,

00:01:02   like a little thing with cactuses in it

00:01:04   that I thought that was kind of cool.

00:01:06   But my memory of this is that I also

00:01:09   didn't ever have plants like in my office.

00:01:11   And at some point, I don't know,

00:01:13   they hired somebody or they redesigned something

00:01:17   or I forget what exactly it was,

00:01:19   but one day I went into the office

00:01:22   and somebody had like brought a plant into my office.

00:01:25   - This is at Macwell.

00:01:27   - Yeah.

00:01:28   And no, it was no, no, a random person broke out of my house

00:01:31   and left a plant on the, oh, the plant bandit is here.

00:01:34   I mean the plant giver, I guess,

00:01:36   they break in and put plants on desks.

00:01:39   Anyway, and I just remember that moment where I saw the plant

00:01:41   and I was like, who put this here?

00:01:44   And I had it removed from my office.

00:01:47   Get it out, out, I want it out.

00:01:50   So the answer is no, but it's like no with an italics,

00:01:53   no with an exclamation point.

00:01:55   I don't, I don't really,

00:01:57   I know that people say, "Oh, they bring you oxygen

00:02:01   "and they're pleasant and it's just like

00:02:03   "they don't do anything for me."

00:02:06   Sorry, not a plant person, just not.

00:02:10   - I like the idea of being a plant person,

00:02:13   but I don't want to be one.

00:02:15   And when I say a plant person,

00:02:16   I just mean like having plants.

00:02:18   You can become like a real plant person.

00:02:20   I know people, you go into their living room

00:02:22   and it's just like a jungle.

00:02:23   I don't mean like that.

00:02:24   - That's extreme, that's extreme.

00:02:27   I know.

00:02:28   That's like, if I say plant person, that's what I'm thinking of, you know?

00:02:33   But I would like the idea maybe of more plants.

00:02:36   We've just never been very good at keeping them alive.

00:02:40   Adina has an app, right, which reminds her to water her plants.

00:02:45   It has, I think, the best name for an app ever.

00:02:50   Right?

00:02:51   This is a plant watering app.

00:02:52   So you put the name of the plant in, you put some information about the plant in it, and

00:02:56   put it on a schedule, right? The app Jason is called Greg. Okay. And I just think

00:03:02   that's hilarious. It's just called Greg. The app's name is Greg. Mm-hmm. And

00:03:08   there's just something about that. It tickles me every single time. Like, why is it called Greg?

00:03:12   Greg would like you to want, would like, you know, I don't know, it's plant person stuff. I

00:03:16   guess so. The plant people know. The plant people get it. They get it. I don't know. I don't get it. The plant people

00:03:21   know what they're talking about there. I don't have a problem, like, like I said,

00:03:25   you know Lauren was saying we should have more plants in the house and I was

00:03:28   like great like I support this you know implied in that is great you're gonna

00:03:32   have to do it cuz I don't care yeah but I don't I'm not against it mm-hmm and we

00:03:38   have had plants and we continue to I mean there are some and we could have

00:03:42   more and that would be fine I don't care but it's not a thing that I like would

00:03:47   choose to do I think we plants outside right where plants go where plants are

00:03:51   supposed to go. In the outside. That's a different thing. Yeah, but the plant people. Interesting.

00:03:58   Well, shout out to the plant people and to Greg, whoever you are.

00:04:03   Thank you to Isaiah for that question. If you would like to send in a question of your

00:04:06   own to help us open an episode of Upgrade, go to upgradefeedback.com and send in your

00:04:10   Snell Talk question. I have some follow up for you, Jason Snell. Since we recorded last,

00:04:17   there's been a controversy. Oh, there's a gate. There's a new gate. It's

00:04:21   - Well, it's the return of a gate.

00:04:23   - It's yeah, you're right.

00:04:24   It's M2 storage gate, part two, M2 part two.

00:04:28   - The base model MacBook Pro, the M2 MacBook Pro

00:04:32   and the M2 Mac minis both have slower SSD speeds

00:04:36   than the M1 models that they replace.

00:04:39   This has happened before.

00:04:40   Was it the MacBook Air?

00:04:43   - Yeah, yeah.

00:04:45   - So basically what's happening is Apple is reducing

00:04:50   the amount of like NAND flash storage chips

00:04:53   that go into the machine.

00:04:55   So like what they would usually have previously used

00:04:57   two chips for 256 gigabytes of storage.

00:05:00   They're now using one.

00:05:02   And in doing that, there is a speed drop.

00:05:06   - Half the pathway, therefore half the speed,

00:05:08   because they only have the one pathway

00:05:09   and not the two, the second pathway.

00:05:11   So there's the, a drop in the maximum speed of the SSD

00:05:15   in the lower storage configurations

00:05:17   that use only one chip instead of two.

00:05:19   And this is something that is not mentioned by Apple

00:05:22   in its details about its storage configurations,

00:05:24   which I think is the key point.

00:05:26   - Why would they?

00:05:27   They should, in theory, but why would they?

00:05:29   - Well, I mean, you could make the argument

00:05:32   that they mentioned that the MacBook Pro with the M2 Macs

00:05:37   has a double the memory bandwidth, for example,

00:05:41   of the lower end model.

00:05:44   And they boast about SSD speeds, at least a little bit.

00:05:47   So I feel like it could be a simple bit of disclosure

00:05:51   of these are really fast and these are faster

00:05:54   and do it like that, but they don't.

00:05:57   And I personally, I think that's the problem here

00:06:00   because again, it's a gate, everybody's gonna get upset.

00:06:03   Last week, there was a great story on connected

00:06:05   about how a civilian told what Federico that like,

00:06:10   oh, I saw a TikTok about Apple scamming people again.

00:06:13   And it's like, what?

00:06:14   It's like, well, it's really easy to get engagement

00:06:17   and clicks and anger saying that Apple did something.

00:06:21   And so people will find literally anything that Apple does.

00:06:24   And sometimes, you know, people ask us on this show,

00:06:26   like, why wouldn't Apple just do this?

00:06:28   And you and I both immediately think of all of the gates

00:06:31   that would happen if they did that thing, right?

00:06:33   And I don't know if Apple makes their choices

00:06:35   based on gate avoidance, clearly not entirely

00:06:37   because there's always another gate,

00:06:39   but this one, you know, Apple has decided to save

00:06:44   money, presumably, by only putting one larger chip on instead of two smaller chips. And

00:06:51   as a result on those lower configurations, the storage is a little slower. I think it's

00:06:57   a little slower. It's not like unusable slow. It's just a little slower. My wager is, first

00:07:03   off, that most people probably don't use the maximum SSD speeds of these things. And second,

00:07:08   that the people who do really push their systems may be buying a higher end configuration where

00:07:13   they're not going to see this,

00:07:15   but I do wish Apple would disclose it

00:07:17   or make a better decision,

00:07:18   which is just to do the thing that's slightly more,

00:07:21   slightly less convenient

00:07:22   and let the storage be fast on all of them.

00:07:27   Also, I saw some comments that were basically like,

00:07:30   it's outrageous that,

00:07:31   'cause this wasn't the case on the M1,

00:07:32   they didn't configure them this way on the M1 MacBook Pro.

00:07:35   It's outrageous that the storage on any configuration

00:07:37   of the M2 should be slower than the M1.

00:07:40   And I thought, outrageous, again,

00:07:43   kind of an extreme view to say outrageous.

00:07:46   And also I would say,

00:07:47   who's upgrading from a low-end M1 to a low-end M2?

00:07:50   Almost nobody, right?

00:07:51   They're coming from Intel.

00:07:52   - Yeah, I don't understand that person.

00:07:55   Oh, but like even someone

00:07:56   that would do a year-over-year upgrade,

00:07:58   but would do a year-over-year upgrade

00:08:00   from base model to base model.

00:08:02   - Yeah, and for those people,

00:08:03   I think, and that's why I think this is good information

00:08:05   and why I wish Apple would disclose it,

00:08:07   because of course Apple seeds the reviewers

00:08:09   with higher-end systems than that.

00:08:12   I think that's all valid, but then there's the freak out.

00:08:15   And it's like, you know, again,

00:08:16   I just have very little time for the people on TikTok

00:08:21   and YouTube who are just trying to make,

00:08:23   trying to inflame people.

00:08:25   And then, yes, at least I try to be understanding

00:08:27   when somebody says this is outrageous and unacceptable,

00:08:29   that I'm like, that's probably somebody who was inflamed

00:08:32   by somebody that like, they got played by that person

00:08:36   who wanted to stoke some anger in order to get engagement.

00:08:39   And it's like, this is not nothing, it's not a big deal.

00:08:44   And the real crime here, I think,

00:08:47   is that either Apple cheaped out on this,

00:08:50   when they should have just dealt with it,

00:08:53   they're trying to optimize this thing

00:08:54   to have bigger profit margins for them.

00:08:57   Or, and or, it is just not disclosing it,

00:09:02   like failure to disclose.

00:09:03   Like, if you put it in the hands of the consumer

00:09:06   that like this SSD configuration has this speed,

00:09:10   which they would call fast,

00:09:12   and this SSD configuration has faster,

00:09:15   and let the consumer decide if they wanna spend,

00:09:18   'cause saying you have to spend more money

00:09:20   for a faster SSD is not on its face unacceptable, right?

00:09:24   It's that it's a stealth speed penalty/boost

00:09:29   that is the issue here.

00:09:30   So they could either not do it,

00:09:31   or they could just disclose it.

00:09:33   But the fact that they did it and didn't disclose it,

00:09:35   yeah, that's dumb.

00:09:36   They shouldn't do that.

00:09:37   Is it a gate?

00:09:39   I mean, I guess it is.

00:09:40   They're all gates.

00:09:42   - I kind of wanted to include this here

00:09:44   to just say that like, I wished, as you said,

00:09:47   like I wished Apple would say it

00:09:49   so we didn't have to have these things

00:09:51   because there are so many valid reasons

00:09:53   to be frustrated at Apple for various things that they do,

00:09:56   which we do, I think, a pretty decent job

00:09:58   of chronicling on this show.

00:10:00   This one to me is just so,

00:10:02   I find it tiring, like in a way.

00:10:05   Like this, it's kind of like one of those things

00:10:09   where you can say it's happening and it's true,

00:10:14   but the amount of people that this will actually affect

00:10:18   is infinitesimal, right?

00:10:22   - Well, and that's why the real story here would be,

00:10:24   Apple has done this, it's good information.

00:10:27   Here's what it means in terms of real world performance,

00:10:30   which is not, you know, it's something,

00:10:33   but it's not enormous.

00:10:36   Here's who it affects,

00:10:37   what kind of user this would affect.

00:10:40   And here's how you should be aware of this

00:10:42   if you're in the market for an M2 MacBook Pro.

00:10:45   - Yep.

00:10:45   - Like that's the news you can use right there, right?

00:10:48   Like that's what it is.

00:10:49   - That's the way I wish that this reporting just was, right?

00:10:51   Rather than like, I think the TikTok that like,

00:10:54   Federico kind of translated it a bit of like,

00:10:58   Apple is scamming you again, right?

00:11:02   and it's just like, oh my god, it's just so tiring.

00:11:06   - It's exhausting.

00:11:06   - If there's one thing that I think they don't do

00:11:08   is scam people, right?

00:11:10   Like they do a lot of things I don't like,

00:11:12   but I don't really, I don't feel like at least

00:11:14   that Apple are out to scam you,

00:11:17   but I guess your interpretation of it may vary, right?

00:11:21   If they don't disclose at all,

00:11:22   maybe you consider it a scam,

00:11:24   but I just kind of look at it of like,

00:11:26   I mean I would like them to,

00:11:28   but of course they're not going to, right?

00:11:30   Like of course in the marketing for the new product,

00:11:32   not gonna say, "Oh, BT dubs is 50% slower read/write speeds

00:11:36   on SSD storage."

00:11:38   - Well, like I said, I think the way you phrase it is

00:11:40   that these are fast and this is faster.

00:11:43   And you disclose it in a way that is marketing,

00:11:46   but it also does make it clear that there is a difference

00:11:48   when you pay more, you're not just getting more storage,

00:11:50   but you're getting faster storage.

00:11:52   I also wonder if they don't disclose it

00:11:53   because they don't wanna be specific.

00:11:55   Because it may also be that it turns out

00:11:58   they wanna be able to put a single 256 chip

00:12:01   or a single 512 chip, I'm not sure exactly whether,

00:12:05   is it two 256s and then one five?

00:12:08   I'm unclear on exactly where this comes into play and not,

00:12:11   and it's also difficult because you actually have to survey

00:12:14   all the different configs to see.

00:12:15   But let's just put it this way.

00:12:16   It's possible that Apple wants to leave it open,

00:12:20   that if they have an availability of the smaller chips

00:12:23   for a good price, that they would build them using two.

00:12:27   And if they don't, they would build them using one, right?

00:12:30   Like it's possible they don't want to disclose this

00:12:32   for internal production reasons, right?

00:12:34   Which is just like, we're just following the available

00:12:38   or affordable version of the chips.

00:12:42   It's not really possible.

00:12:43   Still though, in my mind,

00:12:45   you might want to disclose this,

00:12:48   like just to not have this happen.

00:12:50   Just say it the way it is, which is,

00:12:53   guess what, you pay more, you get more.

00:12:57   The Ivory for Mastodon app is available now.

00:13:01   We've been chronicling a little bit of stuff

00:13:03   that's going on with third-party developers at Mastodon.

00:13:05   This is the Ivory app from the Tapbots,

00:13:10   developers of Tweetbot, so that is now available.

00:13:13   I've been playing around with it.

00:13:17   I logged in and followed a bunch of people.

00:13:19   I just wanted to see what it was all about.

00:13:21   Everyone was like, this has been the story of the week,

00:13:24   I feel like, last week.

00:13:25   Everyone was talking about it.

00:13:27   Have you been using Ivory at all?

00:13:30   - Yeah, I've been using it since it was in beta.

00:13:33   And I, funny story, I did a,

00:13:38   'cause I'm on MacBrigg Weekly on Twit every week.

00:13:40   And it was kind of fun to be one of three people

00:13:42   and not to have like, this is the whole show right there.

00:13:45   I'm just like one of the people in the peanut gallery.

00:13:47   And I used it, we do a pick of the week

00:13:49   and I made it my pick of the week 'cause it came out.

00:13:51   And along the way, I might have said something

00:13:54   about how I wasn't very impressed

00:13:56   with most of the Mastodon apps out there.

00:13:57   And I felt like this is a very good product

00:14:00   from a company that knows what it's doing.

00:14:02   And it sort of is being excited.

00:14:04   People are being excited about it because it's so good.

00:14:08   And that the Mastodon client market is kind of wanting.

00:14:10   And that a lot of the apps out there

00:14:12   are kind of hobby projects and they're not that great.

00:14:16   And, oh, I made a lot of people angry.

00:14:18   I made all the Mastodon NIMBY people angry at me

00:14:23   where it's like, you Twitter people, you come in here

00:14:25   and you with your, we got lots of apps,

00:14:27   we got lots of apps.

00:14:28   And it's like, some of those apps are fine

00:14:29   and a lot of them are growing and I think it's great.

00:14:32   I just, I feel like Ivory Rollin' In is a message

00:14:36   to Mastodon Apps to up their game.

00:14:40   And some of them are, right?

00:14:41   Like I'm not saying that there aren't other good apps

00:14:43   out there or there aren't other apps

00:14:44   with lots of potential out there,

00:14:46   but bottom line is there are also some apps out there

00:14:48   and I'm not naming names because I don't want to be mean

00:14:50   to them and that's not the point of the conversation.

00:14:52   The point is to uplift a thing that I think is good,

00:14:54   which is ivory.

00:14:56   But a lot of people were kind of rushed in

00:14:58   these kind of hobbyist open source apps,

00:15:02   especially in like 2018,

00:15:03   when the first little move to Mastodon happened.

00:15:05   And I mean, they were like, well, at least there's an app.

00:15:10   But when you've got something like ivory,

00:15:13   and there are a couple others

00:15:14   that I think are very promising too,

00:15:15   that I've been using over the last few weeks too,

00:15:18   not ready to talk about yet.

00:15:20   Some of them, I think, because they've got promise,

00:15:22   but they're not there yet.

00:15:23   But it like it changes the game, it forces people to up the game, and what's exciting is this is what happened with Twitter

00:15:29   12 years ago or whatever, which is there were a bunch of them, a lot of them were mediocre,

00:15:35   and then you started to get ones that were really good, that served different people's ideas, like I liked Twitterific, other people liked Tweetbot,

00:15:42   and there were also a bunch of other ones that like Dan Frakes always liked, what was it, Night Hawk or something?

00:15:47   I think was what it was eventually called. Like there were lots of

00:15:51   Cool different takes on a Twitter client and I hope that's what happens with Mastodon because like when I reentered Mastodon

00:15:58   As Twitter was dissolving the last few months. I looked around at a lot of the apps and they felt

00:16:03   Felt like they were in stasis

00:16:06   They were the apps that were there in 2018 that they were kind of pokey and not very good and like if you love them

00:16:12   Then that's great. But my job is not to praise

00:16:16   mediocre apps because they exist, right? And I think ivory is a step above. It's a high

00:16:21   warm mark. Game on for Mastodon apps now. Of developers that have been making an app

00:16:26   that's kind of like this one for like 10 years or something, right? So like it would be good,

00:16:31   but it's an important step for a lot of people in their moving from Twitter to Mastodon.

00:16:37   So I think it's put a lot of attention on it. And you know, I was just listening to

00:16:41   an episode of App Stories today where Jon and Federico were running through a bunch

00:16:44   of apps that they've been trying on iOS and iPad.

00:16:47   Some that are coming out, some that are out already.

00:16:50   And this is incredibly reminiscent of that,

00:16:53   I don't know even know what time it was, like 2010.

00:16:56   - 2010, 2009, 2010.

00:16:58   Yeah, it's that UI playground era, right?

00:17:01   Where there are like a bunch of Twitter apps

00:17:03   with different takes on it.

00:17:05   And that's the beauty of it too,

00:17:06   is there's the I'm gonna make a generic app

00:17:09   for a social media platform.

00:17:11   And then there's like, there was one that I,

00:17:13   It's not my cup of tea, but I saw it the other day

00:17:16   where somebody said, "I've decided to do an app

00:17:18   "that makes Mastodon look like a bunch of text messages."

00:17:21   - Yeah, I loved the look of that.

00:17:23   - What a great idea.

00:17:25   Not for me, but yes, that's the kind of experimentation

00:17:28   we should be seeing.

00:17:29   And then what you got with the Twitter apps was innovation,

00:17:32   where somebody would do something

00:17:34   and everybody would look at it and go,

00:17:36   "Oh," and I don't mean that in a copycatty kind of way.

00:17:39   People can sometimes mock that kind of thing,

00:17:42   but like when somebody nails it and goes like,

00:17:45   oh, this is it.

00:17:46   And everybody else looks at it and goes,

00:17:48   oh, that's it.

00:17:49   That's the right interaction.

00:17:50   We should all, every app should do that.

00:17:53   And that happens sometimes.

00:17:54   And that's magical too.

00:17:55   Where like the whole platform realizes,

00:17:57   oh yeah, yeah, that's the way to do it.

00:18:00   And that's what happens when you've got a whole bunch

00:18:01   of different smart people developing these apps

00:18:04   with their own unique take on it

00:18:05   and they give stuff a try.

00:18:07   And they're not all gonna be great.

00:18:09   And in fact, sometimes you'll get a really brilliant thing

00:18:11   in an app that's not that good

00:18:12   is frustrating in some way, that's okay too, but like that's the beauty of this sort of

00:18:16   scenario, so I hope it keeps going.

00:18:18   Yeah, yeah, I'm finding it really interesting to see people sharing this stuff around. As

00:18:24   I say, like I've logged in in Ivory and I just took a look at it and followed some people

00:18:29   so I could kind of see what it looked like and how it was performing, and it's kind of

00:18:34   what I'd hoped and expected an app from Tapbots to be like, but it seems like there's still

00:18:39   a lot of work to go in the app which they're very open about.

00:18:42   It wouldn't have launched now, right?

00:18:43   I think that's pretty clear.

00:18:46   If Tweetbot was still an ongoing concern, I don't think Ivory would have been made available

00:18:51   when it was made available, but I think from Tapbot's perspective this is probably the

00:18:55   right way to do it.

00:18:58   Something I also saw on 9to5Mac is that Phil Schiller has officially joined Mastodon.

00:19:03   And this highlight is something really interesting to me, which is the verification system.

00:19:10   So it is easy to verify yourself, quote unquote, "easy" to verify yourself on Mastodon.

00:19:19   You could just post a snippet of code on a website that you own and you verify that that

00:19:25   URL is yours to control.

00:19:27   So like, for example, I'm sure you've done this for Six Colors, right?

00:19:31   so then people go into your Mastanov page,

00:19:33   it says a little verified tick so people know it's you.

00:19:36   How does Phil Schiller do this?

00:19:38   Right, like he can't post this piece of code

00:19:42   on apple.com, right?

00:19:45   So this is super interesting to me.

00:19:48   - Well he's been taken off of the,

00:19:50   is there an Apple Fellows page somewhere?

00:19:53   I don't know. - Probably, I think so.

00:19:55   But this was just like a funny thing

00:19:58   where a couple of people reached out to Phil.

00:20:00   One of them, I think was Zach at 9to5mag,

00:20:04   and they also published a screenshot

00:20:07   from Slade Watkins who emailed Phil Schiller at apple.com,

00:20:12   like the Phil Schiller email address,

00:20:14   and Phil confirmed, yes, this is my Mastodon.

00:20:17   I love so much that Phil Schiller incorrectly spelled

00:20:21   Mastodon in the exact way that I do,

00:20:24   which is M-A-S-T-A-D-O-N,

00:20:27   because that's the way it sounds,

00:20:28   and I can never get it right.

00:20:30   And so it just led to me to this interesting thing

00:20:33   of verification is technically easier than Twitter,

00:20:38   but is not achievable really for someone

00:20:43   in a position like Phil Schiller's, right?

00:20:46   Where how can he verify himself?

00:20:49   - He doesn't have his own outpost

00:20:51   and to put a Mastodon link on the Apple leadership

00:20:54   Phil Schiller page would probably require development work

00:20:58   and a lot of approvals and all this stuff

00:21:00   that he's not gonna do.

00:21:01   And it is a funny,

00:21:03   maybe there's a business opportunity here

00:21:05   for some company to be like, you know, verified dot plumbing

00:21:09   and they're like, we are private investigators

00:21:13   who will verify the identity of people who,

00:21:16   plus then, and also scammers.

00:21:17   Because all it verifies is that you can control

00:21:22   what's on a particular page on a particular website.

00:21:26   But sometimes that's enough, right?

00:21:27   Sometimes that's all you really need.

00:21:29   - Yeah, it was just like an interesting thing to me

00:21:32   of like, it's more available to everyone,

00:21:35   but the human element of Twitter's verification system

00:21:37   meant that someone like Phil Schiller could be verified.

00:21:40   So it was just intriguing.

00:21:42   - He should get the Apple PR people to like some post

00:21:44   that he's quoted in, in a press release.

00:21:48   Just have at the bottom among the Apple PR contacts

00:21:51   say are also Phil Schiller's Mastodon.

00:21:54   He can link to that. - By the way.

00:21:55   a newsroom post that says verification URL.

00:21:58   - I just, you know, it's interesting to me

00:22:01   that Shilla's done this.

00:22:03   Like, I'm intrigued to see if anyone else does anything.

00:22:06   You know, it's kind of like in his position now,

00:22:09   he's definitely much more, can be more mavericky, right?

00:22:12   'Cause it's, he isn't so active anymore.

00:22:14   So he, I guess he can kind of do a little bit more

00:22:16   of like what he wants to do.

00:22:19   But it will be, I'm very interested to see if and or

00:22:23   what point Tim Cook joins Mastodon?

00:22:26   - Hmm, interesting.

00:22:28   So you're gonna, Elon gonna have to go walk around the--

00:22:31   - I don't know.

00:22:32   I mean, I don't even know if it would happen, right?

00:22:34   But it's just an intriguing thought.

00:22:37   All right, Jason.

00:22:40   - Yes.

00:22:41   - Who uses the 16 inch MacBook Pro is a question I asked.

00:22:45   - Okay, I'm gonna go get a drink now.

00:22:48   - Apparently everyone does.

00:22:50   - Let me know.

00:22:50   You asked this, you asked it.

00:22:52   You asked for it.

00:22:53   - I did.

00:22:54   This is one of those things where I did a thing

00:22:57   and then realized I have not learned my lesson

00:22:59   'cause I've done this kind of stuff in the past

00:23:01   and I have an element in my mind

00:23:03   of what I think's going to happen

00:23:05   and it never goes that way.

00:23:07   You know, like I think,

00:23:08   oh, I'm gonna get some feedback on this.

00:23:11   It was over 350 people wrote in to upgradefeedback.com

00:23:18   to give me their reasons

00:23:20   for why they use a 16-inch MacBook Pro.

00:23:23   And this was fascinating to me.

00:23:26   When I was getting ready to sit down this morning,

00:23:30   I did have this feeling of dread

00:23:32   'cause I've been keeping my eye on it.

00:23:33   I was like, I've got to go through all this,

00:23:34   'cause I did want to go through it all.

00:23:36   And I was like, oh God, this is gonna take forever.

00:23:37   And it took a while.

00:23:39   It took about, I don't know, like 45 minutes longer

00:23:41   than I would normally prep for upgrade today

00:23:43   to go through it all.

00:23:45   But it was interesting to me in thinking back on it

00:23:48   of how I'm happy that I asked for the feedback there.

00:24:08   Nevertheless, thank you to everybody that wrote in.

00:24:11   What I'm not going to do is read all of these things, but I have aggregated some of the

00:24:15   reasons for why people choose to use the 6th English MacBook Pro and I would like to impart

00:24:20   them upon you. But I did, Jason, I was fascinated by the varied and cool jobs that Upgradients

00:24:27   have. So we heard from, this is just a smattering, doctors, developers, designers, live tour

00:24:35   managers, PR managers, audio engineers, video editors, special effects artists, photographers,

00:24:40   artists, painters, creative directors, theatrical sound designers, music producers, film directors,

00:24:46   and podcast editors. One of those podcast editors is our podcast editor who told me

00:24:51   in Slack, "Thank you, Jim, for why you use the 16-inch MacBook Pro."

00:24:55   Yeah, it's true. And this is just the 16-inch MacBook Pro users who are up gradients. Amazing.

00:25:00   Way more students than I would have expected to. Loads of students. So these are the reasons.

00:25:06   For a lot of people, straight up, bigger display is better.

00:25:10   They just want a bigger display,

00:25:12   especially if using it as a laptop.

00:25:14   Sometimes this can be for screen resolution

00:25:19   and display quality reasons,

00:25:21   which can be vital for design work.

00:25:23   And by and large, especially if they do it

00:25:27   given this machine by their company,

00:25:29   the 16-inch MacBook Pro screen is gonna be better

00:25:32   than whatever external display

00:25:33   they might be plugging into at the office.

00:25:35   If you are on the road a lot for work, there is no display to connect your laptop to, so

00:25:42   you just want the biggest display you can get.

00:25:45   This was one that was fascinating to me and I think is something that might be happening

00:25:48   more now.

00:25:49   If you are used to when you are in the office plugging into an external display, but now

00:25:53   you are in the office for 3 days a week and you are at home for 2 days a week, if you

00:25:57   are going from a 24-27 inch display down to a 14 inch display, that's like a big jump

00:26:02   where 16 at least gets you something that's a bit bigger.

00:26:06   So I find that kind of interesting.

00:26:07   For people that use their external display

00:26:11   with their laptop open, bigger screen is better for that.

00:26:14   And also we heard from a bunch of people

00:26:16   who have eyesight issues and found the 16 inch,

00:26:19   again, like you can just, the scaling can be bigger.

00:26:22   You can make everything bigger if you have eyesight issues.

00:26:25   We heard from some people who just want

00:26:27   the most performance possible

00:26:29   for specific use cases that they have.

00:26:32   Now, so I have a question about this,

00:26:36   which is the MacBook Pro in Apple Silicon,

00:26:40   the MacBook Pro 14 and 16 are basically,

00:26:42   other than the battery life,

00:26:43   the same in terms of performance.

00:26:44   - Correct.

00:26:46   - So what's going on here?

00:26:47   - We got a bunch of people who were telling me

00:26:49   why they chose their laptop when they got it.

00:26:52   So not everybody is using the latest and greatest.

00:26:56   So they may be on an Intel machine

00:26:57   or something like that where they're working on it.

00:26:59   or are so used to Intel, you know, maxing out a 16 inch

00:27:03   or 15 inch before that on Intel,

00:27:06   that they're now just in the habit

00:27:07   of having the larger laptop,

00:27:08   even though it's no longer the case

00:27:09   that it's the only place they can get that performance.

00:27:12   - Yes, that's one of, I'll bring this up now,

00:27:15   which is, so a lot of people just said,

00:27:17   habit from when the smaller machines couldn't cut it.

00:27:20   Right, that was like a thing that I got from people too.

00:27:24   this especially for people using it in clamshell mode.

00:27:29   Like if they're getting a laptop

00:27:30   and always are planning to use it with an external display,

00:27:34   they just want to get the most laptop possible.

00:27:36   So when there were performance differences.

00:27:39   One of the biggest answers that I got about wire 16 inch,

00:27:42   it was just like some,

00:27:44   most people that seem to have it,

00:27:47   got it from their employer.

00:27:49   And so when they're given the choice

00:27:51   of what laptop do you want,

00:27:53   they're just like, I'll have the best one.

00:27:55   Biggest screen, biggest battery,

00:27:56   in some instances biggest performance.

00:27:58   And so they just go with whatever,

00:28:01   because obviously employers tend not to give

00:28:04   desktop machines to people, but will give laptops

00:28:07   and then you can come into the office

00:28:08   and plug in your screen.

00:28:10   And if you're just gonna live that way,

00:28:11   just get the best one possible,

00:28:13   because it's not your money, right?

00:28:15   I heard from some people who say that the 16 inch

00:28:18   feels better to them on the lap,

00:28:21   especially I heard from a couple of people who say,

00:28:22   I'm a bigger person, bigger laptop fits me better

00:28:25   'cause it covers a great surface area.

00:28:27   Many people who've prescribed to the idea

00:28:30   of one computer to rule them all,

00:28:32   so they only want one machine and they want something

00:28:35   that is both a laptop and a desktop, right?

00:28:38   So bigger makes it closer to something like a desktop.

00:28:41   So they'll go with that way.

00:28:42   - I'm gonna do some real-time follow-up

00:28:44   from our friend Zach, friend of the show Zach

00:28:48   from 9to5Mac who points out that there is high power mode

00:28:51   on the 16 inch model,

00:28:52   which essentially just runs the fans even louder

00:28:55   so that if you're at the very, very top

00:28:58   and you've made the chips so hot

00:28:59   that they have to scale down even on the MacBook Pro,

00:29:02   in high power mode, the fans will run even faster

00:29:06   and are even more annoying in order for you

00:29:09   to get the maximum amount of power.

00:29:11   Not sure how many people are using high power mode,

00:29:12   but there is, that would be technically a speed difference.

00:29:17   It's not what our people were talking about,

00:29:19   but it is a good point that there is high power mode,

00:29:21   a hilarious mode for people who love fan noise.

00:29:25   - There were some people who told me about the idea

00:29:27   of just wanting portability at home.

00:29:30   They don't care about portability on the go.

00:29:33   So like moving a 16 inch laptop around your home is fine,

00:29:38   but you wouldn't put it in a bag.

00:29:40   - Right.

00:29:41   - And also this kind of goes into the last one,

00:29:43   which is limited space.

00:29:44   So if you don't have a desk at home

00:29:47   and you need to set up your laptop

00:29:48   in a common area or whatever.

00:29:50   - The closest you can get to an iMac.

00:29:51   - Exactly.

00:29:53   So these were a lot of the reasons.

00:29:55   I had a few people write in to ask why me

00:29:58   as the founder of Plus Club and lover of large iPhones

00:30:01   wouldn't also want the largest laptop, I understand this.

00:30:05   I have back issues in carrying my laptop every day.

00:30:08   I'm going for smallest, lightest.

00:30:10   Like I don't want a big, heavy laptop.

00:30:13   - I wanna throw in here.

00:30:15   I was a one Mac person, laptop,

00:30:20   plugged in at work and using at home in my backpack

00:30:23   every day for like a decade.

00:30:26   And that's why I pushed further and further down

00:30:32   as you know, to the ultimately the 11 inch MacBook Air.

00:30:37   And I don't mind it down there

00:30:39   because I still enjoy the lightness of it

00:30:41   and the small screen doesn't bother me

00:30:43   even though I primarily am using

00:30:44   that you know, this 27 inch display every day.

00:30:47   but that was what got me to prefer thin light laptops.

00:30:52   But I totally see this case that like,

00:30:54   I'm judging it based on,

00:30:55   oh boy, do I wanna carry this thing around and it's huge.

00:30:58   But I get like, if that's your computing device

00:31:00   and it's the only one you get

00:31:02   and you don't have a 27 inch display to dock into

00:31:05   and you wanna have that big display, totally get that.

00:31:07   I totally see that.

00:31:09   It's a, I know, you know,

00:31:11   we have friends who like use them docked on desks, right?

00:31:15   where maybe even the lid closed.

00:31:17   But there are also people,

00:31:19   there are also people who don't have an external monitor,

00:31:23   they work at a desk with a laptop.

00:31:26   Maybe they've got external keyboard and mouse,

00:31:29   but they just put it on their desk,

00:31:31   maybe in a little stand.

00:31:32   And if you're gonna do that, then you have it,

00:31:33   I mean, a 16 inch, it's gonna be a nice,

00:31:37   much bigger display and that's better, I get it, I get that.

00:31:41   - So that's why people use 16 inch MacBook Pros,

00:31:44   all of these things.

00:31:44   to everybody that wrote and genuinely I appreciate

00:31:47   that so many people took time out of their day

00:31:49   to send me in that feedback and help educate me

00:31:52   as to why somebody would want a laptop

00:31:54   so humongous and unwieldy.

00:31:56   - They are very, very large.

00:31:58   I don't like them, but I'm glad.

00:32:00   Like again, they don't have to be,

00:32:03   that's the beauty of it.

00:32:04   And this is the thing that I get this sometimes

00:32:06   with Apple aficionados where they're like,

00:32:09   I don't like this product 'cause I don't wanna buy it.

00:32:10   And they're like very offended that there's a product

00:32:12   that Apple makes that does not appeal to them,

00:32:16   which I always have found weird.

00:32:17   And this is a good example of that,

00:32:18   which is like, you know what?

00:32:20   I love that there's a 16 inch MacBook Pro

00:32:22   for all you weirdos out there who need a giant display.

00:32:24   Like great, that's awesome.

00:32:26   I don't want that computer,

00:32:27   but that's the beauty of it

00:32:28   is they make other computers too, right?

00:32:30   They make vanilla, chocolate,

00:32:32   and other ice cream flavors are also available.

00:32:36   So yeah, it's all good.

00:32:38   It's all good, but it's not for me.

00:32:40   and knowing that it's not for me.

00:32:43   It was fun actually to have the 16 inch,

00:32:46   because this is where this started,

00:32:47   the 16 inch would be my review unit from Apple

00:32:49   instead of the 14 inch,

00:32:50   because it's been a long time

00:32:52   since I held the large Apple laptop.

00:32:56   You know, the last one I got

00:32:57   was the 14 inch MacBook Pro, the M1.

00:32:59   So it was a good reminder

00:33:01   of just how big that computer can get.

00:33:03   - This episode is brought to you by Zocdoc.

00:33:08   When someone is just exceptionally good at what they do, could be a waiter, a chef or

00:33:12   a doctor, you know you're in good hands. It's like seeing one of those waiters who

00:33:17   balance 5 trays of sizzling fajitas on one arm. You're confident in them, they've

00:33:21   got their stuff together. And when you find the right doctor, you can feel it. You feel

00:33:26   heard, you feel at ease. And on ZocDoc finding the doctor that's right for you is seamless.

00:33:31   The quality of care you need is just a few taps away with the ZocDoc app.

00:33:36   ZocDoc is the only free app that lets you find and book doctors who are patient reviewed,

00:33:42   take your insurance, are available when you need them and treat almost every condition

00:33:46   under the sun.

00:33:48   There are no more doctor roulette available to you scouring the internet with questionable

00:33:52   reviews and trying to work out what's going on with ZocDoc who have a trusted guide to

00:33:57   connect you to your favourite doctor that you haven't met yet.

00:34:00   Millions of people use ZocDoc's free app to find and book a doctor in their neighbourhood

00:34:04   who is patient reviewed and fits their needs and schedule just right.

00:34:09   One of the things that I love and one of the things that I think is great about ZocDoc

00:34:13   is the idea of being able to have calls with your doctor, like video calls, audio calls,

00:34:19   that kind of thing, and not needing to go to a waiting room.

00:34:22   I had a doctor's appointment today and the doctor was running late, but it was over the

00:34:27   phone and I was in my office.

00:34:29   So I wasn't waiting for 15 minutes extra in a doctor's waiting room.

00:34:33   I was able to continue doing my work until my doctor called me.

00:34:36   I love that kind of stuff and that is something that Zocdoc can offer for you if you like

00:34:41   me and want that.

00:34:43   Go to Zocdoc.com/upgradefm and download the Zocdoc app for free.

00:34:48   Then find and book a top rated doctor today.

00:34:51   Many are available within 24 hours.

00:34:53   That's Zocdoc.com/upgradefm.

00:34:57   last time at Zocdoc.com/upgradefm go there and download the Zocdoc app for free.

00:35:03   Our thanks to Zocdoc for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:35:09   Jason it is time for a rumor round up.

00:35:13   Ming-Chi Kuo is reporting that Apple will release a foldable iPad in 2024.

00:35:19   - Okay.

00:35:20   - Paul has said that there are no other new iPad models

00:35:27   expected within the next nine to 12 months from Apple.

00:35:31   The foldable iPad will feature a carbon fiber kickstand.

00:35:36   Your favorite.

00:35:37   - Oh yeah, kickstands are the best.

00:35:40   - Ross Young had previously reported

00:35:42   that Apple was testing a 20 inch display

00:35:45   for a foldable iPad, but said that 2026

00:35:48   would be the earliest timeframe that he would expect

00:35:50   for such a device.

00:35:51   I do not know what to think about this.

00:35:54   This doesn't seem, this doesn't pass my logic test at all.

00:35:59   But I don't know.

00:36:02   - Yeah, I mean, look, they, I could, okay.

00:36:07   And he didn't say like it's 20 inch.

00:36:11   - Ross Young said 20 inch.

00:36:13   - Ah, Ross Young said 20 inch.

00:36:14   - I don't believe Ming-Chi Kuo said 20 inch.

00:36:16   - Yeah, it just said that there was a foldable.

00:36:18   So I keep trying to think, what is this?

00:36:21   Right?

00:36:22   What, how, why, Myke, why?

00:36:25   - Yeah, yeah.

00:36:26   - So, and there's so few details here.

00:36:30   So one idea was, what if you made a foldable iPad

00:36:34   so that it could be small when you wanted it to be small,

00:36:38   and then big when you wanted it to be big, right?

00:36:41   Like that a huge iPad might be unwieldy for a lot of uses,

00:36:45   but you could fold it and then have it be more

00:36:47   like iPhone-like and then open it up

00:36:51   when you really need the real estate.

00:36:53   And then there's the question of, is it an Inny or an Audi?

00:36:57   That's a great mystery.

00:36:58   - They have to go in.

00:37:00   - Right, they have to go in,

00:37:01   but that means that if you wanna use it,

00:37:03   you either have to have another screen on the backside

00:37:06   or the folding is only for a different kind of mode.

00:37:11   And the kickstand would suggest this.

00:37:13   So this is my best guess about what this is

00:37:16   based on our very scan information,

00:37:18   is if there's a kickstand and it folds,

00:37:21   that what they're really trying to do

00:37:22   is create a big, beautiful iPad,

00:37:26   that if you fold it,

00:37:27   it becomes the magic keyboard, essentially.

00:37:31   That it becomes a laptop,

00:37:32   where you've got a software,

00:37:34   essentially probably input layer down on the bottom part,

00:37:39   that is like where your keyboard would be.

00:37:43   and then an upright part that is the rest

00:37:46   of the software interface so that you end up,

00:37:49   basically you can convert it by folding it

00:37:53   into something with a keyboard plane

00:37:55   and a display plane like a laptop.

00:37:57   That's my best guess.

00:37:59   And that's, I don't know what the logistics

00:38:04   and benefit are of that.

00:38:05   I'm not sure.

00:38:06   - What if this is actually the touchscreen Mac?

00:38:09   You know what I mean?

00:38:10   - Oh, well, yeah, let's do it.

00:38:12   Well, then when I can boot into macOS,

00:38:14   it just becomes a keyboard and trackpad down there.

00:38:18   And problem solved, right?

00:38:21   I'm something.

00:38:22   - I'm just not, I can't get my head around this one yet.

00:38:26   Like I can't yet see.

00:38:29   - And it could be late 2024.

00:38:31   This could be a thing that like Quo is,

00:38:35   I mean, Quo has been very reliable,

00:38:37   but Quo's information comes from the supply chain.

00:38:39   And I do wonder if this is one of those things

00:38:42   where, I mean, he's positive, right?

00:38:44   That suggests that there's orders are in for this thing.

00:38:47   - He's got information about companies

00:38:49   that will be involved with certain parts

00:38:52   of the carbon fiber process.

00:38:53   That's where this has come from.

00:38:55   - Yeah, yeah.

00:38:56   Which is also interesting 'cause you know,

00:38:57   you can make a carbon fiber kickstand,

00:39:00   Lord help us all, on any iPad, right?

00:39:04   It doesn't have to be a folding iPad

00:39:06   for the kickstand to exist.

00:39:07   But you know, he seems very confident.

00:39:09   So whatever is going on here,

00:39:11   like, okay, I mean, Apple's been experimenting internally

00:39:15   with folding iPhones and iPads for a while now.

00:39:18   I just am still trying to get the details of like,

00:39:21   what the benefit is here,

00:39:24   if it's not just pure portability,

00:39:28   that this is a giant iPad that you can fold up

00:39:30   and tuck away and then open up.

00:39:32   And is it this sort of like, well, yeah,

00:39:34   but you can also hold it like a book

00:39:36   and have left and right,

00:39:38   or put it down with the kickstand

00:39:41   and have it be like a laptop.

00:39:43   Maybe this is your iPad studio, Myke, I don't know.

00:39:48   - So like, I want Apple to make a foldable iPad

00:39:53   and I think they will.

00:39:54   I don't know if, 2024 maybe feels soon for me

00:39:59   unless they're doing something I can't conceive of.

00:40:02   And just like this report is weird to me

00:40:04   because like there aren't,

00:40:06   the details that I want in here, right?

00:40:08   Which is what we were talking about.

00:40:09   is like, is this just an iPad

00:40:12   that's got a really large screen

00:40:13   and you just fold it up and put it in your bag

00:40:15   because it's so big?

00:40:16   Or like, is it what I want,

00:40:17   which is like, it's an iPad mini on the outside

00:40:19   and an iPad Pro on the inside, right?

00:40:21   - Right, right.

00:40:23   Well, that's, so one of the use cases

00:40:24   that makes sense for any folding thing,

00:40:26   like you said, that it's gotta be an innie,

00:40:30   is you take the big beautiful screen, you fold it over,

00:40:32   and what you've got is on one of the back sides

00:40:35   is also a screen.

00:40:36   And so now you've got a little tiny iPad mini slash,

00:40:40   you know, giant iPhone, basically iPad mini,

00:40:43   that you could use.

00:40:44   And it's a little thick, it's a little heavy,

00:40:46   but you can use it.

00:40:48   And it's small and you can hold it in your hand

00:40:50   and you can read with it at night.

00:40:51   And then you unfold it and it's like, boom,

00:40:54   now I can draw things and it's super, you know,

00:40:56   huge and beautiful.

00:40:58   And then if that's,

00:41:01   but that requires a screen on the back,

00:41:02   which is pretty wild and adds to the expense.

00:41:04   and I am skeptical that they would do it.

00:41:07   So the alternative to that is this idea of like,

00:41:10   well, it's multiple modes, right?

00:41:11   Whether it's in horizontal or vertical,

00:41:13   you've got like a book view

00:41:14   and you've got like a keyboard view,

00:41:16   and then I don't know,

00:41:18   and then you close it and just to fold it and put it away.

00:41:21   I don't know, it's, I mean,

00:41:23   you have used foldable devices and I haven't.

00:41:27   So, I mean, you have a better perspective on this than me,

00:41:30   but it seems like, you know,

00:41:32   that for Apple to do a folding device,

00:41:35   they must have,

00:41:37   like Apple standard is that they must have a reason

00:41:40   why you would pay for it, right?

00:41:42   There needs to actually be some appeal for it.

00:41:44   And maybe that's in clever things they do in software,

00:41:46   but like there's gotta be some reason for it.

00:41:50   Folding isn't enough in and of itself.

00:41:52   It needs to bring benefit.

00:41:54   - Yeah.

00:41:55   I could imagine that a big thing that they do

00:41:57   is somewhat similar to the original iPhone,

00:42:00   which is just like, this thing exists,

00:42:02   but it's clunky everywhere else,

00:42:04   and we found a way to make it really smooth and fluid.

00:42:07   And like the way that you transition

00:42:10   between outside and inside, it works really well.

00:42:14   'Cause other devices do this, and they allow for like,

00:42:17   you know, you're doing one thing on the other screen,

00:42:18   you open it up and it's there.

00:42:20   But there is an element of clunkiness to some of it,

00:42:22   and maybe they found some,

00:42:24   maybe they just work to make that smoother,

00:42:26   but I still wanna see something hardware related from them,

00:42:31   which is the key part, as you're mentioning,

00:42:34   of like, what is your reason

00:42:37   other than everyone else is doing it?

00:42:40   That's not good enough reason, I think,

00:42:42   for Apple right now.

00:42:43   - Right, I think, like I said,

00:42:46   I think one argument would be it is an iPad

00:42:49   that is its own Magic Keyboard, right?

00:42:51   - Yep.

00:42:52   - I mean, I'll grant you it's a touchscreen

00:42:54   and not a physical keyboard,

00:42:56   but if it's a big display and you can bend it basically

00:43:01   so that it suddenly goes on a table

00:43:03   and you're doing work on it, interesting idea.

00:43:06   I'm a little skeptical of how that would actually work

00:43:08   and whether that would be any good,

00:43:10   but I'm sure that they've tried all that stuff out.

00:43:12   And we've talked a lot about a larger iPad

00:43:16   being great for artists and stuff,

00:43:18   but the folding part of it suggests that again,

00:43:21   it's large, but also you can fold it to do something.

00:43:26   better. And what is that? And that's all missing here because again, this is what happens when

00:43:34   you get something from the supply chain. I have no doubt though, that if Apple is going

00:43:38   to do something like this, it's not just going to be, "Look at us, we think our folding is

00:43:42   good." It's going to be, "We did clever things with our software combined with the folding

00:43:50   to do stuff that makes it great, right?

00:43:52   Like that has to be the pitch for Apple.

00:43:55   I mean, they base, I mean, in some ways,

00:43:58   Apple's done a lot of the work here

00:44:00   because a folded thing is split view, basically.

00:44:05   So they've done some of the work here already,

00:44:08   but like, what is that?

00:44:09   What is the secret sauce?

00:44:11   Sorry to use the secret sauce metaphor,

00:44:13   but like, seriously,

00:44:14   what is the thing that's Apple's combination

00:44:16   of maybe some hardware that's a little bit different

00:44:18   are better in its approach than some of the stuff

00:44:21   that's out there today, and the software that underlies it,

00:44:24   that makes it make sense as a product.

00:44:26   And a supply chain report isn't gonna tell us that,

00:44:28   so we just sort of have to sit here and scratch our heads.

00:44:31   - The information is reporting that Apple is working

00:44:34   on a way for users to make their own AR apps using Siri.

00:44:39   This is another, and the rumor roundup today

00:44:41   is there are two stories that everyone's reporting on

00:44:44   that Myke can't get his head around.

00:44:46   This is the next one.

00:44:47   to read you a quote from the information.

00:44:50   Apple hopes that even people who don't know computer code could tell the headset via the

00:44:55   Siri voice assistant to build an AR app that could then be made available via Apple's App

00:45:01   Store for others to download. The tool, for example, could allow users to build an app

00:45:07   with virtual animals moving around a room and over or around real life objects without

00:45:12   the need to design the animal from scratch, program its animations and calculate its movement

00:45:17   in a 3D space of obstacles.

00:45:20   This is no offense to the information, this is nonsense what you've written here.

00:45:25   Yeah.

00:45:26   It's either nonsense that they've written or it's nonsense that Apple believes or somebody

00:45:31   at Apple wants to believe.

00:45:33   It's a little like, "Myke, this is the headset equivalent of we're gonna make a car without

00:45:38   a steering wheel."

00:45:39   Right, but like I feel…

00:45:41   - What?

00:45:42   - One, I mean, MacCatter, maybe I'm being a bit harsh,

00:45:44   but actually the way this is written

00:45:46   is very strangely worded,

00:45:48   but also I just feel like you've got to know

00:45:53   that what is being said here is,

00:45:56   this isn't how it's gonna be.

00:45:58   - No, you're right, it's nonsense.

00:46:00   It's like virtual animals moving around a room

00:46:05   and over around real life objects--

00:46:06   - What kind of example is that?

00:46:07   Like that's not an app. - Without the need

00:46:09   to design the animal from scratch.

00:46:10   Yeah, it's an app where animals move around.

00:46:13   Animal movement app, come on.

00:46:15   - Here's what I think this is, if it's anything.

00:46:19   This is some form of like a playgrounds, right?

00:46:23   Potentially, it could be one.

00:46:25   But the other is, this could be Apple is trying to work on

00:46:30   something akin to like a Horizon Worlds, right?

00:46:33   That Meta have, which is essentially Roblox in VR, right?

00:46:39   where people can make their own games and experiences

00:46:43   and share them with others.

00:46:44   - I think this feels like a tech demo like that,

00:46:48   that was, you could even do this with Siri.

00:46:50   And that has been seen by somebody

00:46:53   who's leaked this to the information, right?

00:46:55   'Cause I can see that, right?

00:46:57   Where it's like, okay, we're in a world,

00:46:58   we've mapped a world,

00:47:01   we've used our interface to sort of like set the scene

00:47:05   and we've dropped in some furniture or whatever.

00:47:08   And you can even create custom elements

00:47:13   using the voice assistant.

00:47:15   And they show something about like, put in a tiger.

00:47:17   And there's like, oh, there's a 3D model of a tiger.

00:47:20   And you're like, make the tiger purple.

00:47:22   And like, I can see that that would be like a demo.

00:47:26   And I think you're right.

00:47:27   Like calling it an app is doing a lot of work here

00:47:31   for something that feels more like a configuration

00:47:34   or content or a playground

00:47:36   or something that's a little more like Roblox, right?

00:47:39   But even then, the Siri part of it

00:47:41   seems a little more aspirational than anything else, right?

00:47:44   'Cause I have no doubt

00:47:45   that they will wanna do stuff like this,

00:47:47   but creating it via the Siri voices is like,

00:47:51   well, probably not, right?

00:47:52   Like probably you could do that,

00:47:55   but it would be very hard

00:47:57   and that there's probably other elements to this.

00:47:59   But yeah, I'm sure at the root,

00:48:02   this feels like you'll be able to create

00:48:04   kind of like a custom thing,

00:48:06   like that's more like a wallpaper or a,

00:48:11   you know, an interface plugin or something like that

00:48:14   that's just like sort of very abstract

00:48:16   and then sell it or give it away

00:48:19   or distribute it somehow somewhere, right?

00:48:21   Like that's, that sounds like more,

00:48:24   you're right, these are both sort of us

00:48:25   are trying to interpret baffling reports into making sense.

00:48:29   And I don't know, I don't know if the tea leaves

00:48:33   are functional today or not,

00:48:35   but that's, yes, animals moving around a room.

00:48:40   App, .app.

00:48:43   - I don't mean to like,

00:48:44   I don't mean to like bag on people, right?

00:48:46   The information do a great job.

00:48:47   This just doesn't feel like very good reporting to me.

00:48:49   Like it doesn't feel like it's passing

00:48:54   just a general common sense test that like,

00:48:57   these are apps available in the app store.

00:49:00   Like, it's not that, is it?

00:49:02   Like, I'm sure it's something,

00:49:03   I'm sure you've heard something.

00:49:05   but like, it's not an app, is it?

00:49:07   Right?

00:49:08   - Yeah, made available by Apple's app store.

00:49:09   - It's downloadable content from somewhere

00:49:12   that maybe you can message to a friend,

00:49:14   but like, no one thinks seriously

00:49:19   that you will be able to tell Siri, make an app,

00:49:23   and then with everything that is needed

00:49:25   to distribute apps on the app store,

00:49:28   that that's all it takes.

00:49:30   That is not a thing that Apple's going to do.

00:49:34   - Right. - Right.

00:49:35   So there's, I think that this is a telephone game problem

00:49:39   on one level. - No, 100%, it is, right?

00:49:41   - Right, and then the, you know how Mark Gurman

00:49:46   has to say like, "The people said."

00:49:48   - Yeah, yeah. - So this is like,

00:49:50   "Animals moving around a room, the telephone said,"

00:49:53   is what happened here, right?

00:49:54   Where it's like, "No, no, that's not what it, no."

00:49:57   And again, yeah, I don't wanna fault the information.

00:49:59   They have a source.

00:50:00   But again, we, as we often do here on Upgrade,

00:50:04   we start to ask like, well,

00:50:05   how did that source get their information?

00:50:06   And what does it sound like?

00:50:07   And in this case, it sounds completely ridiculous.

00:50:10   So I think we have to assume

00:50:12   that there is some super aspirational,

00:50:14   some demo that happened that somebody saw

00:50:18   that has some things in it

00:50:20   that when described became this paragraph,

00:50:25   these paragraphs that are so bizarre in the information,

00:50:29   because it's a lot that got lost in translation,

00:50:31   I think is what's going on here.

00:50:33   - And I will raise my hand up and say,

00:50:35   I have gotten this from a nine to five Mac article

00:50:38   that's quoted this.

00:50:39   Maybe I should subscribe to the information

00:50:42   and read the whole thing.

00:50:43   I should probably do that.

00:50:44   But I'll just say these quotes to me,

00:50:47   they don't, it doesn't make any sense.

00:50:49   - Information does great work.

00:50:50   I think they're trying to,

00:50:52   they got this detail about this product

00:50:54   that everybody wants to know about.

00:50:55   And they try to make sense of it

00:50:57   because that's all they can do

00:50:59   because it's a source giving them information.

00:51:02   It's not their fault really that it's bananas.

00:51:05   It's just bananas.

00:51:06   That's like, it's just what it is.

00:51:09   Yeah, yeah.

00:51:12   We should, yeah, we should subscribe to the information.

00:51:13   I don't subscribe to the information either.

00:51:15   And it's mostly because like the articles that they publish,

00:51:18   'cause they do a lot of really good work,

00:51:20   but the articles they publish that I'm interested in

00:51:21   is such a tiny fraction.

00:51:23   - That's the thing.

00:51:24   - It's not necessarily what I wanna do,

00:51:27   but they do good work.

00:51:29   This is a scoop, which is nice.

00:51:30   it's just so strange that we all have to process,

00:51:34   what does that mean?

00:51:37   And sometimes what happens is that our friend Mark Gurman

00:51:41   does a thing the next week,

00:51:43   who's having gone to his sources and said,

00:51:46   "What's the deal here?"

00:51:47   And he gets the refined version where they're like,

00:51:50   "Well, here's what's really going on."

00:51:52   And that might yet happen with this one.

00:51:54   I wouldn't put it past him.

00:51:55   - Yeah.

00:51:57   Speaking of, we have a big report from Mark Gurman.

00:52:01   - Mark Gurman, he's been busy, busy, busy boy.

00:52:03   - He's done one of his, I feel like,

00:52:05   so this is his like flag in the ground,

00:52:09   I am telling you everything I know about a product now.

00:52:12   - Yes, including previous reports and current reports,

00:52:15   and here's what it all is about the headset.

00:52:18   - And there's a bunch of quotes I wanna read in this one.

00:52:21   So this will be a bit text heavy,

00:52:23   but this one was one where it felt like

00:52:25   trying to summarize some things weren't right.

00:52:29   Like there's a lot of interesting details.

00:52:31   So I'm gonna go through each part

00:52:33   and we can stop as we would like to.

00:52:36   I do pay for Bloomberg, by the way.

00:52:38   (laughs)

00:52:39   - Yeah, me too. - I don't pay

00:52:40   for the information, I just pay for Bloomberg because--

00:52:42   - Me too, if we're detailing what we pay for.

00:52:44   - We use Mark's work every week,

00:52:48   that I kind of felt like it was the right thing to do.

00:52:50   - Oh yeah, no, I absolutely pay for Bloomberg.

00:52:53   - Plus I wanna read,

00:52:54   Obviously everybody does great work in summarizing,

00:52:57   but sometimes I do actually want to read

00:52:59   exactly what he said.

00:53:01   - Yeah. - And so here we are.

00:53:02   - I find it, and I get other value out of Bloomberg,

00:53:05   there's a bunch of stuff in there,

00:53:06   a bunch of their newsletters that are great.

00:53:08   And so I found myself going,

00:53:10   hitting the paywall at Bloomberg all the time.

00:53:13   - Me too. - And then Mark started

00:53:14   his newsletter where he was putting extra stuff

00:53:16   in the paid version of the newsletter.

00:53:18   And I was like, okay, well,

00:53:19   if I'm ever gonna subscribe to Bloomberg, now is the time.

00:53:21   and so I absolutely have for more than a year now.

00:53:24   - I'll tell you, when you subscribe to Bloomberg,

00:53:26   you have to spend about a week

00:53:27   tuning your email preferences.

00:53:29   - Oh boy, there's a lot of emails.

00:53:31   - They want to send you a lot of email.

00:53:33   They got it away now.

00:53:35   So first up is Mark Gorman is really doubling down

00:53:39   on Reality Pro as the name.

00:53:41   Now I'm assuming it will be called Apple Reality Pro.

00:53:44   - Yeah, sure.

00:53:45   - Right, but that's, I think maybe from now

00:53:47   we can just call it that instead of the headset

00:53:49   we can use this interchangeably as we wish.

00:53:52   Quote number one. Its core features will include advanced FaceTime-based video conferencing

00:53:58   and meeting rooms. The headset's FaceTime software will realistically render a user's

00:54:03   face and full body in virtual reality. Those avatars will allow two people, each of an

00:54:08   Apple headset, to communicate and feel like they're in the same room. The technology

00:54:13   differs from virtual meeting rooms on Meta's headset, which creates a more cartoon-like

00:54:18   avatar of the user.

00:54:20   Because of the immense processing power necessary

00:54:22   for the feature, the headset will only support

00:54:25   realistic avatars during one-on-one video chats.

00:54:28   It will still allow for FaceTime sessions

00:54:30   with several people, but additional users

00:54:33   will be displayed as an icon or Memoji.

00:54:35   So what is an advanced avatar?

00:54:42   What is that gonna be?

00:54:45   I feel like this is trying to communicate

00:54:48   that they're gonna try to make it seem like it's you, right?

00:54:51   Like human body proportions, not cartoon body proportions,

00:54:54   and something that's based on your actual face,

00:54:56   whether it's a face model that they build,

00:55:02   or they're looking at your expressions

00:55:03   and trying to adjust, I don't know, right?

00:55:05   And it could be uncanny, right?

00:55:06   But what he's saying here is that the attempt

00:55:09   is to have it be less cartoony than meta,

00:55:13   which is their little blobby, Memoji-like kind of characters

00:55:18   and more realistic that they felt like,

00:55:22   'cause meta stuff does make it feel like

00:55:24   you're in the same room in a way, right?

00:55:26   Because it puts you in that virtual environment.

00:55:28   There is some realism to it,

00:55:30   but this is Apple trying to say,

00:55:31   we want it to be even more like you're in the same room

00:55:34   with the person you're talking to.

00:55:35   However, if you wanna talk to more than one person,

00:55:37   the rest of them will be cartoon avatars,

00:55:39   which is a funny move.

00:55:40   - That's a funny quote.

00:55:41   - For processing power, probably more than anything.

00:55:43   else right? Yeah but like I wonder like what are we gonna hit an uncanny valley here like

00:55:50   Memoji exists like why not it's weird to me like just go with Memoji like why over complicate

00:55:57   it? I think they're trying to do better right I think that's what it is is can we make it

00:56:01   so that it's more you and if they go down that path and they feel like actually this

00:56:08   is good, right? Like this is better than the all Memoji experience. I could see them going

00:56:14   down that path. It's interesting that they went down that path and realized that it takes

00:56:17   so much processing power to do it that they have to limit it to a one-on-one conversation.

00:56:22   But still, I mean, the truth is, I think a lot of the applications for this stuff are

00:56:26   going to be for groups of people to be together, at which point it's not going to be like this.

00:56:31   It's going to be Memoji, which is fine. I do worry about the uncanny valley thing, right?

00:56:36   Like if you take a scan of my face and then you're trying to map my expressions or stuff,

00:56:41   it's going to get real lawnmower man really fast.

00:56:44   I expect there will still be almost like a character creation kind of tool, but it will

00:56:49   be more human-like.

00:56:51   I don't know.

00:56:52   I can't imagine that I'm going to use my phone, scan my face, and then that's like imposed

00:56:58   on a body.

00:56:59   I just...

00:57:00   I can.

00:57:01   Okay.

00:57:02   All right.

00:57:03   I can.

00:57:04   I can see them doing that.

00:57:06   they've got your face already.

00:57:07   They got your face and face ID, right?

00:57:08   Like they can put dots on your face

00:57:10   and they can use their depth and stuff

00:57:14   and make a model of a creepy life,

00:57:17   like death mask model of Myke.

00:57:19   And then they map it.

00:57:21   And then they've got their cameras on the thing

00:57:23   that are taking images of your face

00:57:26   while it's in the headset.

00:57:27   And then they do, right?

00:57:28   Like I think they could do it,

00:57:29   but the question is like, how weird is that?

00:57:31   - How's it gonna look?

00:57:32   And also like there are many features

00:57:34   that we'll talk about here.

00:57:36   where this feels like a 1.0, and this is it, right?

00:57:40   Like, you can only do it with two people.

00:57:42   Now, you know in the future that will change,

00:57:44   but it's like, also being realistic.

00:57:47   They know that they can,

00:57:48   if they know they can do it with two people,

00:57:50   just do it with two people,

00:57:51   because for the foreseeable future,

00:57:53   not a lot of people will be doing these calls

00:57:56   with more than one person.

00:57:57   - And they wanna show it off, right?

00:57:59   So it's like, if this is dazzling,

00:58:02   they're gonna be like, "Oh, you know,

00:58:03   "Me emoji is great and all, but look at this.

00:58:05   It's like you're really there with another person.

00:58:07   Whoa.

00:58:08   And then everyone's like, "Wow."

00:58:10   But it's just for one, but later it'll be for more.

00:58:12   Because it's 1.0, right?

00:58:14   So you try to dazzle them,

00:58:15   but then you've got that moment where you're like,

00:58:16   "Mm, but not completely yet."

00:58:19   Everybody else is a MooMoji,

00:58:21   but your best pal can be human.

00:58:24   All your second tier pals are MooMoji.

00:58:27   That's just how it's gonna have to be.

00:58:29   - Gorman states that hand tracking

00:58:31   is gonna be the primary interface.

00:58:33   This is something that we've heard before,

00:58:36   but a lot of pinching, tapping, pointing,

00:58:39   that kind of stuff.

00:58:40   - Yep, yep, it's gonna be a real minority report

00:58:43   going on there.

00:58:44   I get it, like I, again, with the Quest 2,

00:58:47   I've got the little handset thingies.

00:58:49   They are nice because they allow for a specificity of input

00:58:54   that the hand gestures, which the Quest actually does have,

00:58:59   don't provide, but they are abstract.

00:59:03   And I can see that Apple doesn't want you to have game controllers in your hands when you're using this.

00:59:10   They want you to feel natural. And that means gestures.

00:59:16   So they better be good, right? Because that's the danger of relying on gestures,

00:59:21   is you've got to be really good at recognizing physical gestures in order to use them.

00:59:25   Quote, "Gaming is expected to be a popular offering from third-party developers,

00:59:31   So I don't know how those two things go together.

00:59:34   There will be some games

00:59:36   that will be able to use hand tracking.

00:59:38   - So my guess is that there will be controllers.

00:59:41   That is my guess.

00:59:41   Is that Apple will either have a partner

00:59:44   or Apple will make their own.

00:59:47   It sounds, I mean,

00:59:48   Apple has never really made a game controller.

00:59:50   So it may be that they are going to use, you know,

00:59:54   have a third party standard

00:59:56   for third party VR input controllers.

00:59:58   Maybe they'll make them themselves.

01:00:00   I don't know.

01:00:00   having used the quest, having those little grippy things in your hands makes a big difference when you're doing

01:00:07   certain kinds of game input, but I can also see them saying what we really want is using gestures for gaming.

01:00:14   I just have a hard time believing that that's gonna be all there is. So they're gonna have to do

01:00:17   controller support. Right, because both things can be true, right?

01:00:21   Like they could make a controller but not put it in the box or they could

01:00:26   spec out a controller for somebody else and not put it in the box or whatever right as you're saying which and

01:00:33   But there be some games that would and could work with hand gestures and that would be great

01:00:39   But then some that you would need a controller for like if you want to do something a little bit more specific

01:00:44   Or for a lot of companies that would want to port their existing VR game over they were built with controllers in mind

01:00:50   And so that's not gonna it's not gonna fly for a lot of those games. So

01:00:56   Apple are developing VR video content of their own and they're also pitching other companies like Disney

01:01:01   To actually make video content you can be involved in like feel like you're in but also they're working on creating

01:01:09   Environments for watching traditional content in a 3d space which we've spoken about before. Yeah. I I actually think this is a winner

01:01:16   One is the idea that they're gonna try to do

01:01:20   I think VR, like sports is a good example,

01:01:24   where their MLS partnership might be a good example,

01:01:26   or their major league baseball thing.

01:01:28   And I can see them working with other companies,

01:01:32   because yeah, immersive, especially for live sports

01:01:35   is interesting, right?

01:01:36   Like the NBA has done this a little bit on the quest,

01:01:40   where you can, there are a handful of games they do

01:01:42   every year that are in the Horizons worlds,

01:01:44   and you can go and sit courtside.

01:01:47   And it's 180 degree camera, so basically it's like

01:01:49   you're sitting court side and you can turn your head

01:01:51   and you can watch the players go by and that's kind of cool.

01:01:55   And then the 3D stuff,

01:01:56   I know we have talked about it before,

01:01:58   but the idea very quickly is that the advantage of it

01:02:00   over something like a 3D movie is that a 3D movie,

01:02:02   they have the projector and you put on the glasses

01:02:04   and it's like dimmer because they have to take

01:02:07   half the light from the left eye and half of the right.

01:02:09   And 3D content in a headset,

01:02:11   you're wearing the headset already.

01:02:13   So it's just 3D content.

01:02:14   And not only have there been lots of 3D movies made, right?

01:02:17   So they can put all of those in Apple's library

01:02:20   or on streaming apps or whatever,

01:02:23   try to get the 3D content to have another use for it

01:02:26   outside of the movie theater.

01:02:27   That's kind of cool.

01:02:29   And then you can do other stuff.

01:02:31   You can do virtual movie theaters

01:02:33   with your friends and stuff.

01:02:34   So it, which is basically SharePlay taken up a level.

01:02:37   Like all this stuff has been worked on in the background,

01:02:39   I think in part to add that stuff to iOS and macOS,

01:02:43   but also to get it ready.

01:02:45   Like SharePlay is a great example

01:02:46   of something that's probably prioritized

01:02:50   because of the headset thing.

01:02:51   And I think that there's a market,

01:02:54   having watched a couple of movies

01:02:56   entirely wearing the Quest 2,

01:02:58   and it seems like, oh, you're wearing a headset

01:03:01   for the two hours and all that.

01:03:02   It's like, yeah, but it's not a bad experience.

01:03:05   And with what the specs of this thing are meant to be,

01:03:09   I think it will be actually a really nice experience.

01:03:11   So yeah, this one, again,

01:03:15   not enough to sell it on its own, but it's a, I think a good feature that could be popular.

01:03:22   The headset will be able to serve as an external display for a connected Mac, says Mark Gorman,

01:03:28   and replicate many functions of iPhones and iPads. The headset's operating system, internally

01:03:33   called XROS, will have many of the same features as an iPhone and iPad but in a 3D environment.

01:03:40   That includes Safari, Photos, Mail, Messages, and the Calendar app.

01:03:45   And it will also have apps for the company's services, such as the App Store to install

01:03:49   third-party software, TV+, music, and podcasts.

01:03:52   The company is working on health tracking functions as well.

01:03:55   Not surprising, right?

01:03:57   Like the ability to run iPad and iPhone apps just in the space, and then connect, which

01:04:02   is actually what Meta does.

01:04:06   Connect to your desktop.

01:04:07   that doesn't do it very well.

01:04:08   But the idea that if you've got a Mac,

01:04:11   you'll essentially be able to do screen sharing

01:04:13   and connect to the Mac and have a virtual Mac as well.

01:04:15   - I've actually been pretty impressed

01:04:16   with that experience myself.

01:04:18   It's worked very well for me.

01:04:20   - On meta?

01:04:21   - Mm-hmm.

01:04:22   - Yeah, it's what I don't, I mean, I think it's janky,

01:04:25   but I think it was, I was impressed that it worked at all.

01:04:29   It's low resolution and it's kind of janky,

01:04:31   but yeah, you can sit at, I mean,

01:04:32   literally what we're talking about here is you can sit

01:04:35   at a virtual desk in a virtual room

01:04:37   and have a virtual version of your Mac screen on the desk.

01:04:41   And you might say, why?

01:04:44   But like, if you're in a meeting and you wanna do,

01:04:46   like the idea here is like, it's for serious business.

01:04:48   You know, like you're doing a virtual business meeting

01:04:52   and you can have your virtual laptop with you

01:04:55   while you're talking and presenting

01:04:57   or checking a spreadsheet, I don't know, whatever.

01:05:00   So that's an interesting idea as well,

01:05:03   that you've got access to max via a remote connection

01:05:06   and then essentially iPhone and iPad apps

01:05:08   just in the environment.

01:05:09   Create a 3D Apple device dashboard around you.

01:05:15   - In theory with that, you could create 10 screens, right?

01:05:22   'Cause it's all virtual.

01:05:23   So that's cool, right?

01:05:24   - Exactly.

01:05:25   - You can do that in meta stuff.

01:05:26   You can just add screens.

01:05:27   So like you could do this in Apple.

01:05:28   - You could add different apps in different places, right?

01:05:30   Like put this app here, put this app here,

01:05:32   for this app over here.

01:05:34   And then if their hand tracking is good, right?

01:05:39   Then you're doing touch gestures, essentially.

01:05:43   - Gorman does say that there is an expectation

01:05:46   that you would just be able to use a keyboard and mouse

01:05:48   and all that kind of stuff too, right?

01:05:50   - Sure.

01:05:51   - 'Cause you can then use it in the AR mode,

01:05:53   like the mixed reality modes.

01:05:55   You can see the keyboards, see the screens.

01:05:58   Think of how many people, Jason,

01:05:59   would be able to drop their 16 inch MacBook Pros

01:06:01   if this became a reality.

01:06:02   - Oh yeah, just put your MacBook Pro in your head

01:06:05   and then it's as big a screen as you need it to be.

01:06:08   - Okay, so yeah, the experience quote,

01:06:12   "The experience should feel familiar to Apple users.

01:06:15   When they put the headset on,

01:06:17   the main interface will be nearly identical

01:06:19   to that of an iPhone and iPad,

01:06:20   featuring a home screen of a grid of icons

01:06:23   that can be reorganized.

01:06:24   Users will be able to pin widgets such as the weather,

01:06:27   calendar appointments, email,

01:06:28   on stock market performance among their app icons.

01:06:32   What?

01:06:34   What?

01:06:35   No, I mean, come on.

01:06:36   Right?

01:06:38   That can't be right.

01:06:40   - Well, you know, again,

01:06:41   I just think about my experience with the Quest

01:06:44   and like the Quest, you wake up, you know,

01:06:47   in that virtual world in a, you know,

01:06:49   your cave in the Tropic Islands or in space,

01:06:53   and there's like a dashboard controller in front of you.

01:06:57   And if you tap on one of the things,

01:06:59   like a big app store window shows up.

01:07:01   So it's not that far-fetched

01:07:03   that it would be something like that, which is a-

01:07:06   - It's gotta be that within something else though, right?

01:07:09   - Yeah, that's my guess is that you'll have a home screen,

01:07:12   like I assume it'll be more like the Quest

01:07:14   where you'll have a home screen floating in space

01:07:19   and you'll be able to put widgets on the home screen

01:07:21   or around, and then you'll have some controls

01:07:25   to take you where you wanna go.

01:07:26   'cause that's what Meta decided to do

01:07:28   and I think it's a good idea.

01:07:29   I don't think I would wanna put it on

01:07:30   and then be in like floating in an empty space

01:07:32   of just a home screen, right?

01:07:34   Or imagine like the home screen is huge

01:07:36   and you've gotta like fly over it

01:07:39   and find the right icon or whatever.

01:07:41   Like these are silly things,

01:07:42   but I think Meta actually is a pretty good model here,

01:07:45   which is they put you in a virtual space,

01:07:47   but it's a virtual space with a launcher essentially,

01:07:50   you know, and a notification center

01:07:52   and all those things that you would have

01:07:54   in a phone or a tablet.

01:07:55   And instead they're in, you know, they're kind of hovering

01:07:58   in this virtual space that you're standing in.

01:08:00   And that's about right.

01:08:02   - I mean, I really hope, because I just read that

01:08:05   and I was like, if that is all it is, that's wild, right?

01:08:07   That like, you've got to have something that feels like

01:08:11   you're in a different environment.

01:08:13   They're just like, you've got an iPad

01:08:15   projected in front of you.

01:08:16   Like, I feel like that's not enough to truly be

01:08:19   like a wowing kind of aspect.

01:08:22   Imagine like an eight foot high, well, okay, maybe not that,

01:08:27   an 80 inch diagonal iPad floating in front of you

01:08:33   while you're at the beach or on a mountain or something.

01:08:36   That's probably what it is, right?

01:08:38   - Yeah. - It's probably

01:08:39   an interface in a 3D environment.

01:08:42   - Yes. - Right?

01:08:44   - That would be better.

01:08:45   You're not gonna like this part, Jason, all right?

01:08:48   - No, I'm not. - I'm telling you this already.

01:08:50   "Apple made the decision to offload the battery from inside of the headset to an external

01:08:55   pack. It rests in a user's pocket and connects via a cable. The headset can last about two

01:09:02   hours per battery pack in line with rival products. The battery, however, is large,

01:09:08   roughly the size of two iPhone 14 Pro Maxes stacked on top of each other, or about six

01:09:15   inches tall and more than half an inch thick. Now I will say that's not going in anyone's

01:09:20   pocket right like I expect that thing will have a clip on it because let's be realistic here.

01:09:25   Yeah so German does say there are still prototypes of an internal battery but the issue that they

01:09:32   are having is with the powerful M2 chips and all the other stuff they've got inside of the headset

01:09:38   if they have a battery in it it gets too hot to wear that has continued to be a problem

01:09:45   So as he is saying right now that he's expecting,

01:09:49   there will be an external battery

01:09:50   that you will clip to yourself.

01:09:53   - Seems inelegant.

01:09:55   - Yep, but maybe otherwise impossible.

01:09:59   - If this is, and I know this is the million dollar question

01:10:03   for this thing, which is, if this is perceived

01:10:05   as being a tech demonstration and a developer kit,

01:10:09   having a battery that you put in your pocket

01:10:12   is something you could get away with.

01:10:15   if it's, you know, but judged as a consumer product

01:10:18   that's like, we've done all this work to make it cordless

01:10:22   except for the cord that you stick in your back pocket.

01:10:25   Like then we all feel like Alex Cox, right?

01:10:27   We've all got a cable running into a pocket

01:10:31   where there's a battery.

01:10:32   - Pokemon Go related.

01:10:35   My feeling on this one is,

01:10:37   if you look at all the stuff we were mentioning before,

01:10:39   right, about what they're trying to do visually,

01:10:42   they're trying to make things look real,

01:10:44   they're trying to do all this very impressive hand tracking.

01:10:47   All of that takes a lot of processing power.

01:10:49   - Yeah.

01:10:50   - If it means that version one

01:10:52   has to have a battery attached to a cable,

01:10:55   I don't think that's going to be important

01:10:57   in the grand vision of the product.

01:10:59   Like that it will demo so well

01:11:02   because it will feel so incredible

01:11:04   that you won't care that you've got this one cable.

01:11:06   That's what I think anyway.

01:11:08   - You can just buy another battery or whatever,

01:11:11   something like that.

01:11:13   "To show off the new headset, Apple is creating a store within a store, an area within its

01:11:21   retail outlets dedicated to demonstrating the product."

01:11:25   So it's like a plexiglass cage or something?

01:11:27   Well, you know what, I have to actually read the, I cut out the full quote, I now need

01:11:35   to sign into Bloomberg, just because it felt so ridiculous to me at the time, but now I'm

01:11:40   here I'm like oh no I should I should read it but this is you know this is

01:11:44   obviously kind of like the Apple watch right like in the idea of bringing

01:11:48   people in right there's not a lot of detail there the company did something

01:11:52   similar when it launched the Apple watch is all it really says the part that I'm

01:11:56   looking for is that something along the lines of the hope will be that people

01:12:00   will come in and buy AirPods. I got it yeah I got it Apple has acknowledged these

01:12:04   challenges internally and it's been trying to set realistic expectations for

01:12:07   the product one benefit of the device the company believes is that it could

01:12:10   spur customers to visit Apple retail stores,

01:12:13   not necessarily to buy the product, but to try it out.

01:12:17   They may then purchase another device,

01:12:19   such as an iPad or AirPods.

01:12:21   - Whose idea is that?

01:12:24   You know what I mean?

01:12:25   Right, like, oh, I know what we'll do here.

01:12:28   This thing that's cost us this many years in development,

01:12:31   we'll use it to upsell AirPods

01:12:33   for people that are coming in to look at it.

01:12:35   - I imagine, I mean,

01:12:36   and I know this is probably not how it happened,

01:12:38   but I imagine a cynical meeting

01:12:39   where there's somebody like,

01:12:40   are people gonna buy these things?

01:12:41   Nah, but once they're in the store,

01:12:42   they'll buy some other crap.

01:12:44   - You know what this reads to me though, Jason,

01:12:47   actually this reads to me as,

01:12:49   the person in the retail division

01:12:51   who is pitching the idea of the store within a store concept

01:12:54   is using this on a slide as an additional reason

01:12:56   why they should get their budget.

01:12:58   - Right, 'cause somebody else is like,

01:12:59   no, no, let's just send,

01:13:00   we're only gonna sell a million of them,

01:13:01   let's sell it online only.

01:13:03   They're like, no, no, no,

01:13:04   we gotta put it in the store so people see it

01:13:06   and they're blown away by it.

01:13:08   - And they'll buy it.

01:13:09   - And then, but what will they do?

01:13:11   They won't buy it.

01:13:12   So what will they do?

01:13:13   And it's like, I don't know, the bus of maripods.

01:13:15   - Or whatever.

01:13:17   - This would be the thing that pushes, anyway.

01:13:19   But you mentioned that Apple is expecting

01:13:21   to sell 1 million units in year one.

01:13:23   And listen to this, in a rare move,

01:13:27   it is also not planning to make a profit

01:13:30   on the initial version, even at the high price,

01:13:33   indicating that the company is taking a long-term view

01:13:36   on the platform.

01:13:38   is what we've been talking about.

01:13:39   - Yeah, except that that's what's happening

01:13:42   at $3,000 apparently.

01:13:44   - Yeah, maybe.

01:13:47   It's if we're tying those two things together,

01:13:48   which I think we can possibly, but nevertheless,

01:13:52   even if, okay, let's say it costs $3,000,

01:13:54   if that's what it costs, it's what it costs

01:13:57   for whatever they're doing.

01:13:59   If I believe that, I mean, we're never gonna know that,

01:14:01   right, but if I believe that they're not planning

01:14:03   to take a profit on it, I can at least stomach the idea

01:14:05   if it's costing three grand more, you know what I mean?

01:14:08   Right, like if it costs three grand,

01:14:09   but it costs three grand because 40% of it

01:14:11   is going into Apple's pocket,

01:14:13   it would annoy me. - Right, it's a different story.

01:14:14   - Because it's just like you're not doing

01:14:16   a good enough job here if you want people to use it.

01:14:19   But if it costs three grand to make the tech

01:14:21   the way that they are planning to make it

01:14:23   because they believe that it's important

01:14:25   and it's a bet that they're making,

01:14:26   I'm more willing to accept that as the cost, so.

01:14:30   - I think the damning number here

01:14:33   is one million units in year one.

01:14:35   Just keeping in mind, that's nothing for Apple,

01:14:37   for an Apple product.

01:14:38   That's nothing.

01:14:39   - It's absolutely nothing.

01:14:40   - This is essentially admitting

01:14:43   that this is an advanced technology preview/developer kit,

01:14:47   and that they are going to, this is not the product, right?

01:14:52   This is the product that, oh, this is the deep thought thing.

01:14:55   I'm the, you know, I am not the ultimate answer.

01:14:58   I'm the thing that proceeds that other thing

01:15:00   that asks the question of the ultimate answer.

01:15:03   Anyway, it's "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."

01:15:04   You get it.

01:15:06   That is what this is.

01:15:08   It's like, I am not the popular headset.

01:15:11   I am the one that precedes it.

01:15:13   And I will usher it into existence.

01:15:15   But now, no, only a million of me will be sold.

01:15:18   But next year, oh, or at a time that we will not announce,

01:15:22   but sometime nearly in the future,

01:15:23   another product may exist that will be popular.

01:15:26   That's, I mean, a million.

01:15:29   Apple has not spent all this money

01:15:31   on selling a million of a headset, right?

01:15:34   Like, and so this seems to me to be an admission,

01:15:39   at least in part, even if they don't market it this way,

01:15:41   at least in part that that's what this is.

01:15:43   It's like a million, you know, it's like, we're not,

01:15:45   what I like about this is it shows some realism,

01:15:47   which is, yeah, we know we're not gonna sell any of these.

01:15:50   Like, that's not the point.

01:15:51   The point is to get it out there and to demonstrate this

01:15:53   and to get people excited for whatever comes next.

01:15:56   And there's gonna be a lot of analysis

01:15:59   that we are going to do about their marketing,

01:16:01   'cause I owe to be a fly on the wall again,

01:16:04   of how they market this.

01:16:06   And if they dare to talk about the future

01:16:09   when they market this,

01:16:10   because I think they,

01:16:12   and I know I've said this before,

01:16:13   but like, I think that's what they need to do.

01:16:15   I think when you come out with a product

01:16:16   that nobody's gonna buy,

01:16:17   but you want everybody to get excited about,

01:16:19   you gotta get the hype machine going.

01:16:21   You gotta say, look, this is a start.

01:16:24   It's for explorers and developers,

01:16:26   but we're not stopping and there's more to come.

01:16:30   Even if it's just, there's more to come

01:16:31   and there's, you know,

01:16:32   We think that this is gonna be a huge thing in the future

01:16:35   and we are on it and there are gonna be further products

01:16:38   in this product line, but this is where it starts.

01:16:40   I think they need to really lean into that

01:16:42   because you don't want this thing to be interpreted as,

01:16:45   well, here's Apple's entry in VR.

01:16:48   It costs so much money,

01:16:49   they're not gonna sell any of them, so it's a flop.

01:16:51   And they don't want it to be seen as a flop, right?

01:16:53   They want it to be seen as them priming the pump

01:16:55   for what comes next, which is why, even though this,

01:16:59   I think, 1 million thing is probably not,

01:17:01   it's probably not something Apple wanted somebody

01:17:03   to tell Mark Gurman.

01:17:05   I do expect that as we get closer to this thing coming out,

01:17:09   that Apple will probably use whatever tools it has

01:17:13   at its disposal to set expectations, right?

01:17:17   'Cause you need to manage the expectations of this product.

01:17:20   'Cause by any other product standards,

01:17:23   not selling a million in year one for Apple

01:17:27   is really not good.

01:17:29   like Apple products, like the Apple watch sold what,

01:17:33   300 million in year one, I don't know, 30 million?

01:17:37   I don't know how many it was.

01:17:39   It's a lot, a lot more than one, I think is the point.

01:17:43   So that's my question.

01:17:47   Actually, Germin wrote about this this weekend too.

01:17:49   And there, he was talking more about like the risk

01:17:53   of the headset and it was a little more like,

01:17:56   it's not gonna be an iPhone and it's not.

01:17:59   and it's not gonna be an Apple Watch.

01:18:01   And this is all true.

01:18:04   The question is,

01:18:05   how do you get people to view it?

01:18:11   Here, I'll quote from,

01:18:13   "Apple sold a million iPhones

01:18:14   within months of the product's debut.

01:18:16   The iPad topped a million units on its first 28 days."

01:18:20   And that's just the start.

01:18:21   The company sold more than 10 million iPhones

01:18:23   in its second year and 15 million iPads

01:18:25   in the tablet's first eight months.

01:18:27   even the Apple Watch made it to over 10 million

01:18:31   in its first year.

01:18:33   So there you go.

01:18:33   That was a product that was sort of, well, not troubled,

01:18:36   but like sluggish and a new product in a new category.

01:18:39   And it scored 10 million sales.

01:18:42   And they're talking about a 10th of that for this.

01:18:45   So I'm not saying that this product

01:18:47   it's fundamentally bad or anything like that.

01:18:49   I'm saying they need to manage expectations

01:18:52   because clearly they now are aware, right?

01:18:56   Like this is not gonna be the product

01:18:58   that sets the world on fire because it's so expensive,

01:19:01   but that they're laying the groundwork

01:19:03   for the future of this platform.

01:19:05   And that's fine, just, you know,

01:19:07   they're gonna take their lumps

01:19:08   unless they're very clear about that.

01:19:11   - The latter part of this report

01:19:13   has actually made me feel a bit more personally,

01:19:15   more positive about the endeavor,

01:19:18   that they are facing up to what the task is ahead

01:19:23   and what this part of it will be, right?

01:19:25   that we know it's expensive, so to make it as least expensive as possible, we'll just

01:19:33   sell it for what it costs.

01:19:35   We know we're not going to sell a lot of these and that's totally fine because the people

01:19:38   that this is going to, there are early adopters, there are developers, there are evangelists,

01:19:41   people who are going to get it and use it and try and understand it and have maybe a

01:19:46   higher threshold for understanding it and dealing with what will be some weirdness in

01:19:51   places.

01:19:52   the idea of setting up this thing in the store,

01:19:55   they just want people to see it,

01:19:55   they want people to be aware of what's coming.

01:19:58   And I feel like the thing that you've been hoping for

01:20:01   seems more likely that they would stand on stage

01:20:04   and be like, this is the beginning of a 10 year plan

01:20:08   that we have that everyone will have one of these.

01:20:12   And whether that happens or not isn't the point,

01:20:14   but if they are upfront about that,

01:20:17   everything else will make more sense,

01:20:19   everything else will be more palatable,

01:20:22   but it's if they do it.

01:20:23   However, this report kind of makes it feel

01:20:26   like they have got their feet on the ground a little bit

01:20:29   about what it's gonna take to make this thing

01:20:32   the way that they want.

01:20:33   And that's even stuff like the battery pack.

01:20:35   They're being realistic, right?

01:20:37   About what it is they're able to make

01:20:39   and it be a good experience.

01:20:42   And so, yeah, this report,

01:20:44   I know a lot of people are taking this report

01:20:46   in a lot of different directions.

01:20:48   John Gruber wrote a great piece about it,

01:20:50   where he's kind of trying to break it down

01:20:52   and understand what is this product even and is struggling.

01:20:56   And I mean, we're all struggling with that,

01:20:58   but this article for me was very good at explaining

01:21:03   maybe what Apple thinks this thing is gonna be.

01:21:10   Actually, I think John Cooper is writing

01:21:11   about a different article,

01:21:12   but it's touching on the same kind of things

01:21:15   of like, what will we use it for?

01:21:16   And it's like, it's hard to really know with this stuff.

01:21:21   I think we're going to need to see it.

01:21:22   However, this has made me feel more enthused to see it

01:21:27   than I have been previously.

01:21:29   So we'll see.

01:21:30   Yeah.

01:21:31   If you enjoy this show and want more of it,

01:21:34   please subscribe to Upgrade Plus,

01:21:35   because you will hear no ads, and you will get bonus content

01:21:37   every week.

01:21:38   So with every episode of Upgrade Plus,

01:21:41   you're getting longer content at the end of the show.

01:21:44   Today, we're going to be talking about some of Jason's

01:21:48   experiences and impressions of using the Google Nest hub

01:21:52   instead of his Echo Show.

01:21:54   And we're also going to decide and set our next challenge

01:21:57   topic that we're going to be doing as Upgrade Plus

01:22:00   as the Upgrade Plus challenge.

01:22:02   So we've had some recommendations from Upgradients,

01:22:05   and we're going to pick one and then maybe do it

01:22:07   in the next episode or in the next couple of weeks.

01:22:09   If you sign up at upgrade-- get upgradeplus.com

01:22:11   for just $5 a month or $50 a year,

01:22:14   you will get Upgrade Plus, which is longer and ad-free.

01:22:16   You get access to the Relay FM members' Discord.

01:22:18   to get access to tons of content available just for relay FM members. This is podcast

01:22:23   but also includes newsletters, it includes wallpapers for your devices and so much more.

01:22:29   Go and sign up today at getupgradeplus.com you'll be getting tons of stuff for it and

01:22:34   you'll be helping support the show as well. Our thanks to everybody who supports us and

01:22:39   thank you if you decide to sign up. I have some ask upgrade questions for you Jason to

01:22:45   finish out today's episode. Peter asks, "The discussion of chip binning makes me wonder

01:22:52   if Apple might control the number of active cores in the future with a software license.

01:22:57   Could that be a way to provide an upgrade path for entry level Mac Pros where you pay

01:23:02   at some later time to unlock more cores or RAM?" Now bear with me here a second because

01:23:07   I've had this random thought right of like, at a certain point might they just ship the

01:23:12   the same chip in every machine and you just pay like an in-app purchase to get more cores

01:23:17   available to you? It seems weird but not impossible?

01:23:21   Well, the RAM has costs, right? So I think that it's not likely. The binning happens,

01:23:28   right? Because these chips aren't all up to spec and so they can sell a version with the

01:23:33   GPU cores disabled that are ones where not all the GPU cores worked. So it would require

01:23:41   to have a level of confidence about what they,

01:23:44   what they were generating.

01:23:46   I mean, yeah, again, I think that variation is basically

01:23:49   because it's part of the chip production process.

01:23:52   But sure, if there was a case where Apple could make

01:23:56   a perfect chip that had all the cores working,

01:23:59   all the GPU cores, would they consider making

01:24:03   an in-app purchase for more cores being activated

01:24:05   after the fact?

01:24:06   I suppose they would.

01:24:08   That would be another gate.

01:24:10   People get very angry when you build features

01:24:12   into a product, hardware features,

01:24:15   and then you don't enable them unless you pay more money,

01:24:18   because it's like there is this implicit promise

01:24:20   that you're paying for the hardware that you've got,

01:24:23   and not having it be sort of a completely arbitrary thing.

01:24:27   But it's a funny thing to think about.

01:24:30   But I think the truth is that this has more to do

01:24:33   with the production of chips,

01:24:35   not being able to generate chips

01:24:37   with every GPU core lit up than anything else.

01:24:42   -Cliff wrote in and said, "In episode 442,

01:24:45   Myke mentioned if he was the CEO of Twitter,

01:24:47   he would remove third-party API access,

01:24:50   since the business model of Twitter is based on advertising

01:24:52   and the necessary analytics can't be provided to advertisers

01:24:55   from the users with third-party clients.

01:24:58   Some time ago, Myke also said, as an owner of a podcast network,

01:25:01   he was opposed to services like Spotify

01:25:04   controlling the podcast behind their paywall

01:25:07   and collecting valuable user data

01:25:08   to help to sell to advertisers.

01:25:10   Is this a contradiction?

01:25:12   I included this question to highlight a point of like,

01:25:16   I am capable of holding more than one point of view

01:25:19   at a time, where like, what I was saying was,

01:25:22   if I was the CEO of Twitter, but I am not,

01:25:25   and will never be CEO of Twitter,

01:25:27   I am the owner of a podcast network.

01:25:29   - Of a podcast network, yeah, exactly.

01:25:31   - So, what I'm, if I was given the task of running Twitter,

01:25:35   I would cut off third party apps differently

01:25:38   to how Elon did, but I would cut off third party apps

01:25:41   because I am now running that business

01:25:44   and need to make that business the best that it can be

01:25:47   and that's what you gotta do.

01:25:49   - If you had the time, you might see if you could make it

01:25:52   so that the third party apps could remain

01:25:54   if they showed your ads, right?

01:25:56   But I think we all realize that at this point,

01:25:58   Twitter's not capable of something like that.

01:26:00   And so the answer would be, you just gotta shut them down

01:26:03   if you're a CEO of Twitter.

01:26:04   - As I said before, social networks,

01:26:06   no other social network has an API like this.

01:26:09   You wanna control your platform, it's your platform.

01:26:11   - Yeah, it's yours.

01:26:13   - Similar to I wanna control my platform, it's mine,

01:26:15   which is this podcast network.

01:26:17   And the idea of Spotify buying up shows

01:26:22   and putting them behind their paywall and hiding them,

01:26:26   which funnily enough, there was a report in Bloomberg

01:26:28   this week that Jason sent me,

01:26:29   hasn't done great for Spotify, ultimately.

01:26:32   - No, no, it's actually been kind of a disaster

01:26:35   and they're retrenching and they're changing their approach

01:26:38   and they've lost a lot of money on it

01:26:39   and it hasn't really worked and it's fascinating.

01:26:44   Although one of the things that is mentioned

01:26:46   sort of semi-threateningly in there

01:26:49   is about the fact that Spotify,

01:26:52   if you're listening to a podcast through Spotify's player,

01:26:56   it's not like Spotify gets to insert the ads, right?

01:26:59   like the ads are inserted by whoever is serving the podcast.

01:27:04   And the suggestion there is like, well,

01:27:07   but Spotify wants to get in there.

01:27:08   They want to be like Netflix or YouTube

01:27:10   and be the ones inserting the ads.

01:27:12   I think, and I'm curious what you think about this.

01:27:14   I think that Spotify will end up doing that,

01:27:16   but not in the way that is threatened in that article.

01:27:19   I think the answer is Spotify wants to be a major player

01:27:22   in podcast ad serving, which they already are.

01:27:25   And that'll be inside and outside of Spotify.

01:27:28   They wanna, you know, and they'll make money that way,

01:27:32   potentially, possibly.

01:27:33   - Yeah, maybe. - But I think it's less

01:27:35   likely that they're going to say,

01:27:37   "Oh, if you wanna be a podcast inside Spotify,

01:27:39   "we're gonna insert some ads in your podcast

01:27:41   "that came from outside of Spotify

01:27:44   "without your approval," or whatever.

01:27:46   Like, that seems like a weird place for them to go down.

01:27:49   But certainly, Myke, if you were CEO of Spotify,

01:27:53   you would have a very different opinion

01:27:54   about what Spotify should do

01:27:56   than if you're running Relay FM, which is your role.

01:28:00   - Yep, so it's only a contradiction

01:28:02   if I do actually run both of those companies.

01:28:06   (laughing)

01:28:07   Which I don't.

01:28:08   The Spotify ads thing is interesting to me

01:28:10   because a lot of people try and say,

01:28:11   "I wanna be like YouTube."

01:28:12   It's like, well, but yeah, but the thing is,

01:28:16   YouTube started their industry.

01:28:19   The podcast industry existed a long time before Spotify

01:28:23   and people got used to the way that things are done.

01:28:25   Like if Spotify came to us and said, "Hey, we want to sell your ads."

01:28:29   I can tell you it's a worse deal for me. I know it is.

01:28:32   So why would I do it?

01:28:33   They may be able to do something kind of akin to what YouTube does of

01:28:38   inserting ads before the beginning or like randomly in a show.

01:28:42   But then I don't think listeners would necessarily stick with Spotify

01:28:46   because it's the podcast app that has all the ads in it.

01:28:49   Like, honestly, I think the time for that is over.

01:28:53   what they are more likely to do,

01:28:55   you were just saying, which is like,

01:28:56   they could just become one of the larger

01:28:59   podcast advertising agencies who offer

01:29:04   companies to other podcasters

01:29:06   at whatever rates they wanna pay.

01:29:08   Which they could do if they want to,

01:29:09   but I also don't think that's Spotify's business.

01:29:11   - They have their own dynamic ad insertion system

01:29:13   that they would put together and it would work in Spotify,

01:29:15   but it would also work outside of Spotify,

01:29:17   and it would be, you know, maybe there are different rates

01:29:19   for the insertions that are happening in Spotify,

01:29:21   where they have more data.

01:29:22   Like I could see them doing that,

01:29:24   but the Bloomberg report was interesting

01:29:26   because it was basically saying that this is not,

01:29:29   this was an interesting pivot on their part,

01:29:31   but it really hasn't worked out.

01:29:32   That podcasts are not gonna be the thing that saves Spotify.

01:29:36   And the challenge with Spotify is the challenge

01:29:38   with any streaming music service,

01:29:39   which is they spend so much money

01:29:43   back to the music licensing that, you know,

01:29:46   there's not a lot of profit or any profit

01:29:49   that can be rung out of it,

01:29:51   which is that's, yeah,

01:29:54   something's gonna have to give there,

01:29:55   but the podcast strategy seems to have been

01:29:58   not the right one.

01:29:59   And I think podcasts will remain a part of their strategy,

01:30:02   but they're gonna rethink it.

01:30:04   - It's not the thing that's gonna make them

01:30:06   a largely profitable company.

01:30:08   - Producing original Spotify podcasts

01:30:10   is probably not gonna be their thing.

01:30:11   And in fact, I would go so further into say

01:30:13   those Spotify exclusive podcasts

01:30:15   also are probably in the long run not gonna be a thing

01:30:18   'cause they're probably not worth it for them.

01:30:19   they're probably better off having podcasts playing

01:30:22   be in their app.

01:30:23   And like we said, maybe make money by being a podcast,

01:30:28   ad network of some kind or platform of some kind.

01:30:33   But paying a lot of money to paywall

01:30:36   or Spotify exclusivize certain podcasts

01:30:40   may not actually make a lot of sense for them

01:30:42   'cause the money they're spending

01:30:43   is more than the benefit they're getting.

01:30:46   - Tyler asks, "For those of us that are now new to RSS,

01:30:49   What RSS readers do you recommend?

01:30:51   - Net News Wire is where I would start because it's free

01:30:55   and it's new, it's been around forever, but it's new.

01:30:59   They brought it back.

01:31:00   Brent Simmons and a team of people working on it

01:31:03   as an open source project.

01:31:05   I use the iPad app every day.

01:31:07   There's a Mac app that is comparable to the iPad app.

01:31:10   I worked on iPhone.

01:31:12   There are a bunch of others.

01:31:14   Reader, I like.

01:31:15   - That's the one I use. - R-E-E-D-E-R.

01:31:18   It's very nice.

01:31:19   - Beautiful.

01:31:21   - And I am actually using, oh, what's this one called?

01:31:24   Unread.

01:31:28   - Oh yeah, okay, yeah.

01:31:30   - Which is very simple and I have that on my iPhone.

01:31:35   - I think they just released a new version too.

01:31:37   - I'm trying it where my Twitter app used to be.

01:31:41   I have RSS instead.

01:31:43   Trying to be a little, see Myke,

01:31:45   I'm trying to be a little better about not having my default

01:31:47   when I'm bored somewhere looking at my phone

01:31:50   to be reading social media.

01:31:52   And instead it's looking at my RSS feeds.

01:31:54   - Now, one of the good things these, wait, not good thing.

01:31:57   One of the things makes this stuff easier these days

01:31:59   is a lot of these apps don't require

01:32:00   that you need to also use an RSS service.

01:32:03   - Right, it used to be that they did,

01:32:05   but a lot of them are doing like iCloud syncing stuff too.

01:32:08   I use Feedbin. - So do I.

01:32:10   - But the reason I use Feedbin is mostly because,

01:32:14   not because it's a sync service,

01:32:15   but because it's got a bunch of extra features

01:32:17   that's where all my newsletters go,

01:32:19   is that I have a feed bin email address

01:32:21   that I forward all my newsletters to.

01:32:23   And so they're in there with the RSS feed,

01:32:25   they're all together.

01:32:26   And I really like that.

01:32:28   So I, you know, maybe, you know,

01:32:31   the next frontier for this is that like,

01:32:33   NetNewswire doesn't really have smart lists and stuff.

01:32:37   And what it means is that I can't subscribe

01:32:41   to very high volume RSS feeds

01:32:43   because I can't filter them out.

01:32:46   And I mostly just read today view in NetNewswire

01:32:51   of my latest feed items.

01:32:53   And then somebody was saying, well, you know,

01:32:55   you can add Twitter lists as a feed.

01:32:57   And you can in Feedbin, but then every single post

01:33:03   in my Twitter list appears

01:33:05   and it overwhelms the stories that are in there.

01:33:08   Now there's hundreds of Twitter posts and a few stories,

01:33:11   and that's no good.

01:33:12   So at some point I will probably,

01:33:15   either they'll bring it to the newswire or I will experiment with using a different service

01:33:19   for that because I would like the ability to have sort of like my curated list and also

01:33:23   be able to dip into a larger kind of like stream of whether it's Twitter posts or news

01:33:29   headlines or whatever. So that's a little complexity but I would start with the newswire

01:33:34   because it's free and then there are yeah there are a bunch of others reader unread

01:33:37   and others check them out.

01:33:39   Sotir. Chance asks do you think Apple ever bring back live musical guests to keynotes

01:33:43   would you welcome them back if they did?

01:33:46   - I would, because nothing gives me more cred

01:33:49   with my daughter than listing all the famous music artists

01:33:52   that I've seen live that she hasn't.

01:33:54   (laughing)

01:33:55   Sia was a question on Jeopardy the other day

01:33:59   and I was like, "Seener."

01:34:01   Like, "Seener at an Apple event.

01:34:04   "Drake, seen him at an Apple event.

01:34:06   "The Weeknd, saw him at an Apple event."

01:34:08   Like, it goes on and on and on.

01:34:10   But I don't know.

01:34:12   I think the question is,

01:34:14   is Apple ever gonna bring back keynotes?

01:34:17   And my guess is no.

01:34:21   I think they're gonna have videos

01:34:23   that they might invite some of us to go see

01:34:25   in the Steve Jobs theater.

01:34:28   But I kind of feel like those days are over.

01:34:31   - There is a lot of questioning right now again

01:34:33   about if WWDC is coming back.

01:34:35   'Cause I think there was some article that I sent around.

01:34:39   I saw that Apple was dropping COVID testing

01:34:43   at their campuses.

01:34:45   Myke Hurley says that means nothing

01:34:48   for whether WBC is coming back or not.

01:34:52   - Zach, by the way, truth check, fast checking me,

01:34:54   Drake didn't perform, he just spoke.

01:34:56   What is speaking live on stage, but a performance?

01:34:59   It was actually a poor one,

01:34:59   he kind of was confused and rambled.

01:35:02   He was wearing a sweet, sweet vintage Apple jacket,

01:35:06   but it doesn't matter, I saw him live, right?

01:35:08   That's all that matters.

01:35:09   I saw him live.

01:35:10   You too, most of them twice live.

01:35:13   Yeah, I can go on, right?

01:35:15   Kanye, right after he made trouble

01:35:18   in what we thought was trouble for Kanye.

01:35:21   We didn't know.

01:35:22   - We didn't yet know the scale

01:35:23   of what Kanye trouble could mean.

01:35:25   - Sure, saw him live, Apple event.

01:35:27   Yeah, the list goes on.

01:35:29   Kind of amazing.

01:35:30   But I think those days are,

01:35:31   not that there won't be like Apple.

01:35:34   I think Apple will probably do more like music events,

01:35:37   like festivals and stuff like that, but that's not the same as like at a product event.

01:35:43   I don't think that's going to happen again.

01:35:44   Yeah, I think that, I still think that WWDC will be more like what it was last year going forward

01:35:52   than going back to 2019.

01:35:53   I think that's it. I think that's what it is now.

01:35:55   Because even at the last WWDC, there were different rules.

01:35:59   Like Apple, like two weeks before or something like that, stopped their employees from coming to campus anymore

01:36:04   because of rising COVID rates.

01:36:07   But then had WWDCs.

01:36:08   I don't think you can supplant one rule on top of the other.

01:36:11   No, I think they're gonna, I think the model now is for big events,

01:36:16   they will do a press event that will include some hands-on time

01:36:20   and they will be a simulcast of the live streamed video

01:36:25   that they're gonna put on the internet.

01:36:27   WWDC, it'll be a press event plus a select developers invited to campus event.

01:36:33   With some ancillary events throughout the week.

01:36:35   And that's it.

01:36:36   I think that's what it is now.

01:36:38   And it may just be those two, who knows?

01:36:41   I don't know.

01:36:42   It's a different world now.

01:36:44   - Yep.

01:36:44   And Brian asks, is there a Sonos speaker

01:36:47   roughly comparable to the new HomePod?

01:36:49   I'm not looking for portable.

01:36:50   Is there a good starter option?

01:36:52   It's, I think, very helpfully named Sonos One.

01:36:55   That's the one you wanna check out.

01:36:56   - Yes.

01:36:56   And that's what I have in my office.

01:36:58   I have a serial pair of Sonos Ones.

01:37:00   - Yep.

01:37:01   - Sound great?

01:37:02   - And it's, I mean, I'm looking at the UK website here,

01:37:05   200 pounds, so vastly more cost effective.

01:37:10   - Yeah, very heavy. - Oh, that's not what you meant.

01:37:13   Yeah, it's $200 or I guess it's $219 right now in the US.

01:37:18   Are they still selling the 1SL or whatever?

01:37:24   That's the one that doesn't have the,

01:37:25   yeah, the 1SL is 199.

01:37:28   That's the one that doesn't have the voice assistant in it

01:37:30   'cause you don't really need that.

01:37:32   - I like it, but it's not necessary at all.

01:37:34   Like I like speaking to Giancarlo Esposito, you know?

01:37:38   Did you know he's the voice, by the way?

01:37:40   Yes, yes, I did.

01:37:42   I actually have a Sonos One and a Sonos One SL as my stereo pair.

01:37:46   Right.

01:37:47   But I never use the voice assistant, I have it turned off.

01:37:49   I like it, just because he pulls the music.

01:37:51   I saw Giancarlo Esposito getting off a plane when we came back from LA.

01:37:57   Interesting.

01:37:58   He does exist.

01:37:59   He's so cool looking.

01:38:01   If you would like to send in a question of your own, just open your browser and go to

01:38:05   UpgradeFeedback.com or click the link in the show notes and please send in your questions

01:38:10   for us to answer in a future episode of Ask Upgrade.

01:38:14   Thank you so much for listening to today's episode, episode 444 in fact.

01:38:18   If you want to check out Jason's writing at SixColors.com, that's where you should go

01:38:21   and find everything that Jason and Dan and the gang are up to.

01:38:26   You can also hear Jason's podcast at TheIncomparable.com and here on Real AFM and you can listen to

01:38:30   to my shows, Relay FM as well,

01:38:33   and check out my work, cortexbrand.com.

01:38:35   I have a new product, please go check it out.

01:38:36   It's called Psychic Notepad, I'm very proud of it.

01:38:38   You can send us your feedback.

01:38:40   - It's a psychic notepad?

01:38:42   What?

01:38:43   Does it read your thoughts and put them down itself?

01:38:45   - This is unnecessary bullying.

01:38:47   This is cyber bullying.

01:38:48   (laughing)

01:38:49   - It's only cyber bullying because it's on Zoom.

01:38:52   - Exactly, that's what makes it cyber bullying.

01:38:54   Whenever I say this is cyber bullying,

01:38:55   that's what I'm referring to, 'cause it's Zoom.

01:38:57   - Everybody go buy the psychic notebook then,

01:39:00   and it'll read your mind.

01:39:02   - Sidekick. - Cortex brand.

01:39:03   That's what the Cortex means.

01:39:05   It's your mind and it's being read

01:39:07   by the psychic notebook. - Do I make fun

01:39:08   of your website?

01:39:09   Do I do that?

01:39:10   You know, like, oh, what about the fifth color?

01:39:11   No, I don't do this.

01:39:12   You know? - I'm just saying

01:39:14   you're selling a product, you should enunciate more.

01:39:18   I'm being your mom now.

01:39:19   - I'm trying not to spend all this time

01:39:21   talking about it on upgrade, right?

01:39:23   But I just want to sneak in a little plug there.

01:39:27   - Notebook.

01:39:27   - But also people can go there,

01:39:29   They'll see that something new is there if they know what I'm up to.

01:39:31   You're British. You're British. Do the British enunciation thing. People love that.

01:39:34   Oh, I don't have that anymore. I lost that a long time ago.

01:39:37   You Americans took that away from me.

01:39:39   Oh, alright. Okay.

01:39:41   You can send us your feedback and questions at upgradefeedback.com.

01:39:44   Thank you to our members, whose support was of Upgrade Plus.

01:39:47   Thank you to ZocDoc for their support of this week's episode.

01:39:50   But most of all, thank you for listening. We'll be back next week.

01:39:53   Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

01:39:56   Goodbye to Five of the Colors. The sixth one knows what it did.

01:39:58   what it did, you know what you did.

01:40:00   [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:40:03   [ Music ]