Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [BEEP]

00:00:00 ◼   ► [♫ "The

00:00:29 ◼   ► Couldn't we? We could be like, you know, #hellomike.

00:00:34 ◼   ► I mean, who cares?

00:00:35 ◼   ► - Isaiah says, "Do you have any plants in your office?"

00:00:38 ◼   ► - Interesting question.

00:00:42 ◼   ► The answer is no.

00:00:45 ◼   ► I also, Lauren was saying how we should probably

00:00:52 ◼   ► have more plants in our house.

00:00:53 ◼   ► We do have some, but we don't have that many.

00:00:56 ◼   ► And I left that to her because I'm not a big

00:00:59 ◼   ► plants in the house person.

00:01:01 ◼   ► Although somebody got us a cactus,

00:01:02 ◼   ► like a little thing with cactuses in it

00:01:04 ◼   ► that I thought that was kind of cool.

00:01:06 ◼   ► But my memory of this is that I also

00:01:09 ◼   ► didn't ever have plants like in my office.

00:01:11 ◼   ► And at some point, I don't know,

00:01:13 ◼   ► they hired somebody or they redesigned something

00:01:17 ◼   ► or I forget what exactly it was,

00:01:19 ◼   ► but one day I went into the office

00:01:22 ◼   ► and somebody had like brought a plant into my office.

00:01:25 ◼   ► - This is at Macwell.

00:01:27 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:01:28 ◼   ► And no, it was no, no, a random person broke out of my house

00:01:31 ◼   ► and left a plant on the, oh, the plant bandit is here.

00:01:34 ◼   ► I mean the plant giver, I guess,

00:01:36 ◼   ► they break in and put plants on desks.

00:01:39 ◼   ► Anyway, and I just remember that moment where I saw the plant

00:01:41 ◼   ► and I was like, who put this here?

00:01:44 ◼   ► And I had it removed from my office.

00:01:47 ◼   ► Get it out, out, I want it out.

00:01:50 ◼   ► So the answer is no, but it's like no with an italics,

00:01:53 ◼   ► no with an exclamation point.

00:01:55 ◼   ► I don't, I don't really,

00:01:57 ◼   ► I know that people say, "Oh, they bring you oxygen

00:02:01 ◼   ► "and they're pleasant and it's just like

00:02:03 ◼   ► "they don't do anything for me."

00:02:06 ◼   ► Sorry, not a plant person, just not.

00:02:10 ◼   ► - I like the idea of being a plant person,

00:02:13 ◼   ► but I don't want to be one.

00:02:15 ◼   ► And when I say a plant person,

00:02:16 ◼   ► I just mean like having plants.

00:02:18 ◼   ► You can become like a real plant person.

00:02:20 ◼   ► I know people, you go into their living room

00:02:22 ◼   ► and it's just like a jungle.

00:02:23 ◼   ► I don't mean like that.

00:02:24 ◼   ► - That's extreme, that's extreme.

00:02:27 ◼   ► I know.

00:02:28 ◼   ► That's like, if I say plant person, that's what I'm thinking of, you know?

00:02:33 ◼   ► But I would like the idea maybe of more plants.

00:02:36 ◼   ► We've just never been very good at keeping them alive.

00:02:40 ◼   ► Adina has an app, right, which reminds her to water her plants.

00:02:45 ◼   ► It has, I think, the best name for an app ever.

00:02:50 ◼   ► Right?

00:02:51 ◼   ► This is a plant watering app.

00:02:52 ◼   ► So you put the name of the plant in, you put some information about the plant in it, and

00:02:56 ◼   ► put it on a schedule, right? The app Jason is called Greg. Okay. And I just think

00:03:02 ◼   ► that's hilarious. It's just called Greg. The app's name is Greg. Mm-hmm. And

00:03:08 ◼   ► there's just something about that. It tickles me every single time. Like, why is it called Greg?

00:03:12 ◼   ► Greg would like you to want, would like, you know, I don't know, it's plant person stuff. I

00:03:16 ◼   ► guess so. The plant people know. The plant people get it. They get it. I don't know. I don't get it. The plant people

00:03:21 ◼   ► know what they're talking about there. I don't have a problem, like, like I said,

00:03:25 ◼   ► you know Lauren was saying we should have more plants in the house and I was

00:03:28 ◼   ► like great like I support this you know implied in that is great you're gonna

00:03:32 ◼   ► have to do it cuz I don't care yeah but I don't I'm not against it mm-hmm and we

00:03:38 ◼   ► have had plants and we continue to I mean there are some and we could have

00:03:42 ◼   ► more and that would be fine I don't care but it's not a thing that I like would

00:03:47 ◼   ► choose to do I think we plants outside right where plants go where plants are

00:03:51 ◼   ► supposed to go. In the outside. That's a different thing. Yeah, but the plant people. Interesting.

00:03:58 ◼   ► Well, shout out to the plant people and to Greg, whoever you are.

00:04:03 ◼   ► Thank you to Isaiah for that question. If you would like to send in a question of your

00:04:06 ◼   ► own to help us open an episode of Upgrade, go to upgradefeedback.com and send in your

00:04:10 ◼   ► Snell Talk question. I have some follow up for you, Jason Snell. Since we recorded last,

00:04:17 ◼   ► there's been a controversy. Oh, there's a gate. There's a new gate. It's

00:04:21 ◼   ► - Well, it's the return of a gate.

00:04:23 ◼   ► - It's yeah, you're right.

00:04:24 ◼   ► It's M2 storage gate, part two, M2 part two.

00:04:28 ◼   ► - The base model MacBook Pro, the M2 MacBook Pro

00:04:32 ◼   ► and the M2 Mac minis both have slower SSD speeds

00:04:36 ◼   ► than the M1 models that they replace.

00:04:39 ◼   ► This has happened before.

00:04:40 ◼   ► Was it the MacBook Air?

00:04:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:04:45 ◼   ► - So basically what's happening is Apple is reducing

00:04:50 ◼   ► the amount of like NAND flash storage chips

00:04:53 ◼   ► that go into the machine.

00:04:55 ◼   ► So like what they would usually have previously used

00:04:57 ◼   ► two chips for 256 gigabytes of storage.

00:05:00 ◼   ► They're now using one.

00:05:02 ◼   ► And in doing that, there is a speed drop.

00:05:06 ◼   ► - Half the pathway, therefore half the speed,

00:05:08 ◼   ► because they only have the one pathway

00:05:09 ◼   ► and not the two, the second pathway.

00:05:11 ◼   ► So there's the, a drop in the maximum speed of the SSD

00:05:15 ◼   ► in the lower storage configurations

00:05:17 ◼   ► that use only one chip instead of two.

00:05:19 ◼   ► And this is something that is not mentioned by Apple

00:05:22 ◼   ► in its details about its storage configurations,

00:05:24 ◼   ► which I think is the key point.

00:05:26 ◼   ► - Why would they?

00:05:27 ◼   ► They should, in theory, but why would they?

00:05:29 ◼   ► - Well, I mean, you could make the argument

00:05:32 ◼   ► that they mentioned that the MacBook Pro with the M2 Macs

00:05:37 ◼   ► has a double the memory bandwidth, for example,

00:05:41 ◼   ► of the lower end model.

00:05:44 ◼   ► And they boast about SSD speeds, at least a little bit.

00:05:47 ◼   ► So I feel like it could be a simple bit of disclosure

00:05:51 ◼   ► of these are really fast and these are faster

00:05:54 ◼   ► and do it like that, but they don't.

00:05:57 ◼   ► And I personally, I think that's the problem here

00:06:00 ◼   ► because again, it's a gate, everybody's gonna get upset.

00:06:03 ◼   ► Last week, there was a great story on connected

00:06:05 ◼   ► about how a civilian told what Federico that like,

00:06:10 ◼   ► oh, I saw a TikTok about Apple scamming people again.

00:06:13 ◼   ► And it's like, what?

00:06:14 ◼   ► It's like, well, it's really easy to get engagement

00:06:17 ◼   ► and clicks and anger saying that Apple did something.

00:06:21 ◼   ► And so people will find literally anything that Apple does.

00:06:24 ◼   ► And sometimes, you know, people ask us on this show,

00:06:26 ◼   ► like, why wouldn't Apple just do this?

00:06:28 ◼   ► And you and I both immediately think of all of the gates

00:06:31 ◼   ► that would happen if they did that thing, right?

00:06:33 ◼   ► And I don't know if Apple makes their choices

00:06:35 ◼   ► based on gate avoidance, clearly not entirely

00:06:37 ◼   ► because there's always another gate,

00:06:39 ◼   ► but this one, you know, Apple has decided to save

00:06:44 ◼   ► money, presumably, by only putting one larger chip on instead of two smaller chips. And

00:06:51 ◼   ► as a result on those lower configurations, the storage is a little slower. I think it's

00:06:57 ◼   ► a little slower. It's not like unusable slow. It's just a little slower. My wager is, first

00:07:03 ◼   ► off, that most people probably don't use the maximum SSD speeds of these things. And second,

00:07:08 ◼   ► that the people who do really push their systems may be buying a higher end configuration where

00:07:13 ◼   ► they're not going to see this,

00:07:15 ◼   ► but I do wish Apple would disclose it

00:07:17 ◼   ► or make a better decision,

00:07:18 ◼   ► which is just to do the thing that's slightly more,

00:07:21 ◼   ► slightly less convenient

00:07:22 ◼   ► and let the storage be fast on all of them.

00:07:27 ◼   ► Also, I saw some comments that were basically like,

00:07:30 ◼   ► it's outrageous that,

00:07:31 ◼   ► 'cause this wasn't the case on the M1,

00:07:32 ◼   ► they didn't configure them this way on the M1 MacBook Pro.

00:07:35 ◼   ► It's outrageous that the storage on any configuration

00:07:37 ◼   ► of the M2 should be slower than the M1.

00:07:40 ◼   ► And I thought, outrageous, again,

00:07:43 ◼   ► kind of an extreme view to say outrageous.

00:07:46 ◼   ► And also I would say,

00:07:47 ◼   ► who's upgrading from a low-end M1 to a low-end M2?

00:07:50 ◼   ► Almost nobody, right?

00:07:51 ◼   ► They're coming from Intel.

00:07:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't understand that person.

00:07:55 ◼   ► Oh, but like even someone

00:07:56 ◼   ► that would do a year-over-year upgrade,

00:07:58 ◼   ► but would do a year-over-year upgrade

00:08:00 ◼   ► from base model to base model.

00:08:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, and for those people,

00:08:03 ◼   ► I think, and that's why I think this is good information

00:08:05 ◼   ► and why I wish Apple would disclose it,

00:08:07 ◼   ► because of course Apple seeds the reviewers

00:08:09 ◼   ► with higher-end systems than that.

00:08:12 ◼   ► I think that's all valid, but then there's the freak out.

00:08:15 ◼   ► And it's like, you know, again,

00:08:16 ◼   ► I just have very little time for the people on TikTok

00:08:21 ◼   ► and YouTube who are just trying to make,

00:08:23 ◼   ► trying to inflame people.

00:08:25 ◼   ► And then, yes, at least I try to be understanding

00:08:27 ◼   ► when somebody says this is outrageous and unacceptable,

00:08:29 ◼   ► that I'm like, that's probably somebody who was inflamed

00:08:32 ◼   ► by somebody that like, they got played by that person

00:08:36 ◼   ► who wanted to stoke some anger in order to get engagement.

00:08:39 ◼   ► And it's like, this is not nothing, it's not a big deal.

00:08:44 ◼   ► And the real crime here, I think,

00:08:47 ◼   ► is that either Apple cheaped out on this,

00:08:50 ◼   ► when they should have just dealt with it,

00:08:53 ◼   ► they're trying to optimize this thing

00:08:54 ◼   ► to have bigger profit margins for them.

00:08:57 ◼   ► Or, and or, it is just not disclosing it,

00:09:02 ◼   ► like failure to disclose.

00:09:03 ◼   ► Like, if you put it in the hands of the consumer

00:09:06 ◼   ► that like this SSD configuration has this speed,

00:09:10 ◼   ► which they would call fast,

00:09:12 ◼   ► and this SSD configuration has faster,

00:09:15 ◼   ► and let the consumer decide if they wanna spend,

00:09:18 ◼   ► 'cause saying you have to spend more money

00:09:20 ◼   ► for a faster SSD is not on its face unacceptable, right?

00:09:24 ◼   ► It's that it's a stealth speed penalty/boost

00:09:29 ◼   ► that is the issue here.

00:09:30 ◼   ► So they could either not do it,

00:09:31 ◼   ► or they could just disclose it.

00:09:33 ◼   ► But the fact that they did it and didn't disclose it,

00:09:35 ◼   ► yeah, that's dumb.

00:09:36 ◼   ► They shouldn't do that.

00:09:37 ◼   ► Is it a gate?

00:09:39 ◼   ► I mean, I guess it is.

00:09:40 ◼   ► They're all gates.

00:09:42 ◼   ► - I kind of wanted to include this here

00:09:44 ◼   ► to just say that like, I wished, as you said,

00:09:47 ◼   ► like I wished Apple would say it

00:09:49 ◼   ► so we didn't have to have these things

00:09:51 ◼   ► because there are so many valid reasons

00:09:53 ◼   ► to be frustrated at Apple for various things that they do,

00:09:56 ◼   ► which we do, I think, a pretty decent job

00:09:58 ◼   ► of chronicling on this show.

00:10:00 ◼   ► This one to me is just so,

00:10:02 ◼   ► I find it tiring, like in a way.

00:10:05 ◼   ► Like this, it's kind of like one of those things

00:10:09 ◼   ► where you can say it's happening and it's true,

00:10:14 ◼   ► but the amount of people that this will actually affect

00:10:18 ◼   ► is infinitesimal, right?

00:10:22 ◼   ► - Well, and that's why the real story here would be,

00:10:24 ◼   ► Apple has done this, it's good information.

00:10:27 ◼   ► Here's what it means in terms of real world performance,

00:10:30 ◼   ► which is not, you know, it's something,

00:10:33 ◼   ► but it's not enormous.

00:10:36 ◼   ► Here's who it affects,

00:10:37 ◼   ► what kind of user this would affect.

00:10:40 ◼   ► And here's how you should be aware of this

00:10:42 ◼   ► if you're in the market for an M2 MacBook Pro.

00:10:45 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:10:45 ◼   ► - Like that's the news you can use right there, right?

00:10:48 ◼   ► Like that's what it is.

00:10:49 ◼   ► - That's the way I wish that this reporting just was, right?

00:10:51 ◼   ► Rather than like, I think the TikTok that like,

00:10:54 ◼   ► Federico kind of translated it a bit of like,

00:10:58 ◼   ► Apple is scamming you again, right?

00:11:02 ◼   ► and it's just like, oh my god, it's just so tiring.

00:11:06 ◼   ► - It's exhausting.

00:11:06 ◼   ► - If there's one thing that I think they don't do

00:11:08 ◼   ► is scam people, right?

00:11:10 ◼   ► Like they do a lot of things I don't like,

00:11:12 ◼   ► but I don't really, I don't feel like at least

00:11:14 ◼   ► that Apple are out to scam you,

00:11:17 ◼   ► but I guess your interpretation of it may vary, right?

00:11:21 ◼   ► If they don't disclose at all,

00:11:22 ◼   ► maybe you consider it a scam,

00:11:24 ◼   ► but I just kind of look at it of like,

00:11:26 ◼   ► I mean I would like them to,

00:11:28 ◼   ► but of course they're not going to, right?

00:11:30 ◼   ► Like of course in the marketing for the new product,

00:11:32 ◼   ► not gonna say, "Oh, BT dubs is 50% slower read/write speeds

00:11:36 ◼   ► on SSD storage."

00:11:38 ◼   ► - Well, like I said, I think the way you phrase it is

00:11:40 ◼   ► that these are fast and this is faster.

00:11:43 ◼   ► And you disclose it in a way that is marketing,

00:11:46 ◼   ► but it also does make it clear that there is a difference

00:11:48 ◼   ► when you pay more, you're not just getting more storage,

00:11:50 ◼   ► but you're getting faster storage.

00:11:52 ◼   ► I also wonder if they don't disclose it

00:11:53 ◼   ► because they don't wanna be specific.

00:11:55 ◼   ► Because it may also be that it turns out

00:11:58 ◼   ► they wanna be able to put a single 256 chip

00:12:01 ◼   ► or a single 512 chip, I'm not sure exactly whether,

00:12:05 ◼   ► is it two 256s and then one five?

00:12:08 ◼   ► I'm unclear on exactly where this comes into play and not,

00:12:11 ◼   ► and it's also difficult because you actually have to survey

00:12:14 ◼   ► all the different configs to see.

00:12:15 ◼   ► But let's just put it this way.

00:12:16 ◼   ► It's possible that Apple wants to leave it open,

00:12:20 ◼   ► that if they have an availability of the smaller chips

00:12:23 ◼   ► for a good price, that they would build them using two.

00:12:27 ◼   ► And if they don't, they would build them using one, right?

00:12:30 ◼   ► Like it's possible they don't want to disclose this

00:12:32 ◼   ► for internal production reasons, right?

00:12:34 ◼   ► Which is just like, we're just following the available

00:12:38 ◼   ► or affordable version of the chips.

00:12:42 ◼   ► It's not really possible.

00:12:43 ◼   ► Still though, in my mind,

00:12:45 ◼   ► you might want to disclose this,

00:12:48 ◼   ► like just to not have this happen.

00:12:50 ◼   ► Just say it the way it is, which is,

00:12:53 ◼   ► guess what, you pay more, you get more.

00:12:57 ◼   ► The Ivory for Mastodon app is available now.

00:13:01 ◼   ► We've been chronicling a little bit of stuff

00:13:03 ◼   ► that's going on with third-party developers at Mastodon.

00:13:05 ◼   ► This is the Ivory app from the Tapbots,

00:13:10 ◼   ► developers of Tweetbot, so that is now available.

00:13:13 ◼   ► I've been playing around with it.

00:13:17 ◼   ► I logged in and followed a bunch of people.

00:13:19 ◼   ► I just wanted to see what it was all about.

00:13:21 ◼   ► Everyone was like, this has been the story of the week,

00:13:24 ◼   ► I feel like, last week.

00:13:25 ◼   ► Everyone was talking about it.

00:13:27 ◼   ► Have you been using Ivory at all?

00:13:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, I've been using it since it was in beta.

00:13:33 ◼   ► And I, funny story, I did a,

00:13:38 ◼   ► 'cause I'm on MacBrigg Weekly on Twit every week.

00:13:40 ◼   ► And it was kind of fun to be one of three people

00:13:42 ◼   ► and not to have like, this is the whole show right there.

00:13:45 ◼   ► I'm just like one of the people in the peanut gallery.

00:13:47 ◼   ► And I used it, we do a pick of the week

00:13:49 ◼   ► and I made it my pick of the week 'cause it came out.

00:13:51 ◼   ► And along the way, I might have said something

00:13:54 ◼   ► about how I wasn't very impressed

00:13:56 ◼   ► with most of the Mastodon apps out there.

00:13:57 ◼   ► And I felt like this is a very good product

00:14:00 ◼   ► from a company that knows what it's doing.

00:14:02 ◼   ► And it sort of is being excited.

00:14:04 ◼   ► People are being excited about it because it's so good.

00:14:08 ◼   ► And that the Mastodon client market is kind of wanting.

00:14:10 ◼   ► And that a lot of the apps out there

00:14:12 ◼   ► are kind of hobby projects and they're not that great.

00:14:16 ◼   ► And, oh, I made a lot of people angry.

00:14:18 ◼   ► I made all the Mastodon NIMBY people angry at me

00:14:23 ◼   ► where it's like, you Twitter people, you come in here

00:14:25 ◼   ► and you with your, we got lots of apps,

00:14:27 ◼   ► we got lots of apps.

00:14:28 ◼   ► And it's like, some of those apps are fine

00:14:29 ◼   ► and a lot of them are growing and I think it's great.

00:14:32 ◼   ► I just, I feel like Ivory Rollin' In is a message

00:14:36 ◼   ► to Mastodon Apps to up their game.

00:14:40 ◼   ► And some of them are, right?

00:14:41 ◼   ► Like I'm not saying that there aren't other good apps

00:14:43 ◼   ► out there or there aren't other apps

00:14:44 ◼   ► with lots of potential out there,

00:14:46 ◼   ► but bottom line is there are also some apps out there

00:14:48 ◼   ► and I'm not naming names because I don't want to be mean

00:14:50 ◼   ► to them and that's not the point of the conversation.

00:14:52 ◼   ► The point is to uplift a thing that I think is good,

00:14:54 ◼   ► which is ivory.

00:14:56 ◼   ► But a lot of people were kind of rushed in

00:14:58 ◼   ► these kind of hobbyist open source apps,

00:15:02 ◼   ► especially in like 2018,

00:15:03 ◼   ► when the first little move to Mastodon happened.

00:15:05 ◼   ► And I mean, they were like, well, at least there's an app.

00:15:10 ◼   ► But when you've got something like ivory,

00:15:13 ◼   ► and there are a couple others

00:15:14 ◼   ► that I think are very promising too,

00:15:15 ◼   ► that I've been using over the last few weeks too,

00:15:18 ◼   ► not ready to talk about yet.

00:15:20 ◼   ► Some of them, I think, because they've got promise,

00:15:22 ◼   ► but they're not there yet.

00:15:23 ◼   ► But it like it changes the game, it forces people to up the game, and what's exciting is this is what happened with Twitter

00:15:29 ◼   ► 12 years ago or whatever, which is there were a bunch of them, a lot of them were mediocre,

00:15:35 ◼   ► and then you started to get ones that were really good, that served different people's ideas, like I liked Twitterific, other people liked Tweetbot,

00:15:42 ◼   ► and there were also a bunch of other ones that like Dan Frakes always liked, what was it, Night Hawk or something?

00:15:47 ◼   ► I think was what it was eventually called. Like there were lots of

00:15:51 ◼   ► Cool different takes on a Twitter client and I hope that's what happens with Mastodon because like when I reentered Mastodon

00:15:58 ◼   ► As Twitter was dissolving the last few months. I looked around at a lot of the apps and they felt

00:16:03 ◼   ► Felt like they were in stasis

00:16:06 ◼   ► They were the apps that were there in 2018 that they were kind of pokey and not very good and like if you love them

00:16:12 ◼   ► Then that's great. But my job is not to praise

00:16:16 ◼   ► mediocre apps because they exist, right? And I think ivory is a step above. It's a high

00:16:21 ◼   ► warm mark. Game on for Mastodon apps now. Of developers that have been making an app

00:16:26 ◼   ► that's kind of like this one for like 10 years or something, right? So like it would be good,

00:16:31 ◼   ► but it's an important step for a lot of people in their moving from Twitter to Mastodon.

00:16:37 ◼   ► So I think it's put a lot of attention on it. And you know, I was just listening to

00:16:41 ◼   ► an episode of App Stories today where Jon and Federico were running through a bunch

00:16:44 ◼   ► of apps that they've been trying on iOS and iPad.

00:16:47 ◼   ► Some that are coming out, some that are out already.

00:16:50 ◼   ► And this is incredibly reminiscent of that,

00:16:53 ◼   ► I don't know even know what time it was, like 2010.

00:16:56 ◼   ► - 2010, 2009, 2010.

00:16:58 ◼   ► Yeah, it's that UI playground era, right?

00:17:01 ◼   ► Where there are like a bunch of Twitter apps

00:17:03 ◼   ► with different takes on it.

00:17:05 ◼   ► And that's the beauty of it too,

00:17:06 ◼   ► is there's the I'm gonna make a generic app

00:17:09 ◼   ► for a social media platform.

00:17:11 ◼   ► And then there's like, there was one that I,

00:17:13 ◼   ► It's not my cup of tea, but I saw it the other day

00:17:16 ◼   ► where somebody said, "I've decided to do an app

00:17:18 ◼   ► "that makes Mastodon look like a bunch of text messages."

00:17:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, I loved the look of that.

00:17:23 ◼   ► - What a great idea.

00:17:25 ◼   ► Not for me, but yes, that's the kind of experimentation

00:17:28 ◼   ► we should be seeing.

00:17:29 ◼   ► And then what you got with the Twitter apps was innovation,

00:17:32 ◼   ► where somebody would do something

00:17:34 ◼   ► and everybody would look at it and go,

00:17:36 ◼   ► "Oh," and I don't mean that in a copycatty kind of way.

00:17:39 ◼   ► People can sometimes mock that kind of thing,

00:17:42 ◼   ► but like when somebody nails it and goes like,

00:17:45 ◼   ► oh, this is it.

00:17:46 ◼   ► And everybody else looks at it and goes,

00:17:48 ◼   ► oh, that's it.

00:17:49 ◼   ► That's the right interaction.

00:17:50 ◼   ► We should all, every app should do that.

00:17:53 ◼   ► And that happens sometimes.

00:17:54 ◼   ► And that's magical too.

00:17:55 ◼   ► Where like the whole platform realizes,

00:17:57 ◼   ► oh yeah, yeah, that's the way to do it.

00:18:00 ◼   ► And that's what happens when you've got a whole bunch

00:18:01 ◼   ► of different smart people developing these apps

00:18:04 ◼   ► with their own unique take on it

00:18:05 ◼   ► and they give stuff a try.

00:18:07 ◼   ► And they're not all gonna be great.

00:18:09 ◼   ► And in fact, sometimes you'll get a really brilliant thing

00:18:11 ◼   ► in an app that's not that good

00:18:12 ◼   ► is frustrating in some way, that's okay too, but like that's the beauty of this sort of

00:18:16 ◼   ► scenario, so I hope it keeps going.

00:18:18 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, I'm finding it really interesting to see people sharing this stuff around. As

00:18:24 ◼   ► I say, like I've logged in in Ivory and I just took a look at it and followed some people

00:18:29 ◼   ► so I could kind of see what it looked like and how it was performing, and it's kind of

00:18:34 ◼   ► what I'd hoped and expected an app from Tapbots to be like, but it seems like there's still

00:18:39 ◼   ► a lot of work to go in the app which they're very open about.

00:18:42 ◼   ► It wouldn't have launched now, right?

00:18:43 ◼   ► I think that's pretty clear.

00:18:46 ◼   ► If Tweetbot was still an ongoing concern, I don't think Ivory would have been made available

00:18:51 ◼   ► when it was made available, but I think from Tapbot's perspective this is probably the

00:18:55 ◼   ► right way to do it.

00:18:58 ◼   ► Something I also saw on 9to5Mac is that Phil Schiller has officially joined Mastodon.

00:19:03 ◼   ► And this highlight is something really interesting to me, which is the verification system.

00:19:10 ◼   ► So it is easy to verify yourself, quote unquote, "easy" to verify yourself on Mastodon.

00:19:19 ◼   ► You could just post a snippet of code on a website that you own and you verify that that

00:19:25 ◼   ► URL is yours to control.

00:19:27 ◼   ► So like, for example, I'm sure you've done this for Six Colors, right?

00:19:31 ◼   ► so then people go into your Mastanov page,

00:19:33 ◼   ► it says a little verified tick so people know it's you.

00:19:36 ◼   ► How does Phil Schiller do this?

00:19:38 ◼   ► Right, like he can't post this piece of code

00:19:42 ◼   ► on apple.com, right?

00:19:45 ◼   ► So this is super interesting to me.

00:19:48 ◼   ► - Well he's been taken off of the,

00:19:50 ◼   ► is there an Apple Fellows page somewhere?

00:19:53 ◼   ► I don't know. - Probably, I think so.

00:19:55 ◼   ► But this was just like a funny thing

00:19:58 ◼   ► where a couple of people reached out to Phil.

00:20:00 ◼   ► One of them, I think was Zach at 9to5mag,

00:20:04 ◼   ► and they also published a screenshot

00:20:07 ◼   ► from Slade Watkins who emailed Phil Schiller at apple.com,

00:20:12 ◼   ► like the Phil Schiller email address,

00:20:14 ◼   ► and Phil confirmed, yes, this is my Mastodon.

00:20:17 ◼   ► I love so much that Phil Schiller incorrectly spelled

00:20:21 ◼   ► Mastodon in the exact way that I do,

00:20:24 ◼   ► which is M-A-S-T-A-D-O-N,

00:20:27 ◼   ► because that's the way it sounds,

00:20:28 ◼   ► and I can never get it right.

00:20:30 ◼   ► And so it just led to me to this interesting thing

00:20:33 ◼   ► of verification is technically easier than Twitter,

00:20:38 ◼   ► but is not achievable really for someone

00:20:43 ◼   ► in a position like Phil Schiller's, right?

00:20:46 ◼   ► Where how can he verify himself?

00:20:49 ◼   ► - He doesn't have his own outpost

00:20:51 ◼   ► and to put a Mastodon link on the Apple leadership

00:20:54 ◼   ► Phil Schiller page would probably require development work

00:20:58 ◼   ► and a lot of approvals and all this stuff

00:21:00 ◼   ► that he's not gonna do.

00:21:01 ◼   ► And it is a funny,

00:21:03 ◼   ► maybe there's a business opportunity here

00:21:05 ◼   ► for some company to be like, you know, verified dot plumbing

00:21:09 ◼   ► and they're like, we are private investigators

00:21:13 ◼   ► who will verify the identity of people who,

00:21:16 ◼   ► plus then, and also scammers.

00:21:17 ◼   ► Because all it verifies is that you can control

00:21:22 ◼   ► what's on a particular page on a particular website.

00:21:26 ◼   ► But sometimes that's enough, right?

00:21:27 ◼   ► Sometimes that's all you really need.

00:21:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, it was just like an interesting thing to me

00:21:32 ◼   ► of like, it's more available to everyone,

00:21:35 ◼   ► but the human element of Twitter's verification system

00:21:37 ◼   ► meant that someone like Phil Schiller could be verified.

00:21:40 ◼   ► So it was just intriguing.

00:21:42 ◼   ► - He should get the Apple PR people to like some post

00:21:44 ◼   ► that he's quoted in, in a press release.

00:21:48 ◼   ► Just have at the bottom among the Apple PR contacts

00:21:51 ◼   ► say are also Phil Schiller's Mastodon.

00:21:54 ◼   ► He can link to that. - By the way.

00:21:55 ◼   ► a newsroom post that says verification URL.

00:21:58 ◼   ► - I just, you know, it's interesting to me

00:22:01 ◼   ► that Shilla's done this.

00:22:03 ◼   ► Like, I'm intrigued to see if anyone else does anything.

00:22:06 ◼   ► You know, it's kind of like in his position now,

00:22:09 ◼   ► he's definitely much more, can be more mavericky, right?

00:22:12 ◼   ► 'Cause it's, he isn't so active anymore.

00:22:14 ◼   ► So he, I guess he can kind of do a little bit more

00:22:16 ◼   ► of like what he wants to do.

00:22:19 ◼   ► But it will be, I'm very interested to see if and or

00:22:23 ◼   ► what point Tim Cook joins Mastodon?

00:22:26 ◼   ► - Hmm, interesting.

00:22:28 ◼   ► So you're gonna, Elon gonna have to go walk around the--

00:22:31 ◼   ► - I don't know.

00:22:32 ◼   ► I mean, I don't even know if it would happen, right?

00:22:34 ◼   ► But it's just an intriguing thought.

00:22:37 ◼   ► All right, Jason.

00:22:40 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:22:41 ◼   ► - Who uses the 16 inch MacBook Pro is a question I asked.

00:22:45 ◼   ► - Okay, I'm gonna go get a drink now.

00:22:48 ◼   ► - Apparently everyone does.

00:22:50 ◼   ► - Let me know.

00:22:50 ◼   ► You asked this, you asked it.

00:22:52 ◼   ► You asked for it.

00:22:53 ◼   ► - I did.

00:22:54 ◼   ► This is one of those things where I did a thing

00:22:57 ◼   ► and then realized I have not learned my lesson

00:22:59 ◼   ► 'cause I've done this kind of stuff in the past

00:23:01 ◼   ► and I have an element in my mind

00:23:03 ◼   ► of what I think's going to happen

00:23:05 ◼   ► and it never goes that way.

00:23:07 ◼   ► You know, like I think,

00:23:08 ◼   ► oh, I'm gonna get some feedback on this.

00:23:11 ◼   ► It was over 350 people wrote in to upgradefeedback.com

00:23:18 ◼   ► to give me their reasons

00:23:20 ◼   ► for why they use a 16-inch MacBook Pro.

00:23:23 ◼   ► And this was fascinating to me.

00:23:26 ◼   ► When I was getting ready to sit down this morning,

00:23:30 ◼   ► I did have this feeling of dread

00:23:32 ◼   ► 'cause I've been keeping my eye on it.

00:23:33 ◼   ► I was like, I've got to go through all this,

00:23:34 ◼   ► 'cause I did want to go through it all.

00:23:36 ◼   ► And I was like, oh God, this is gonna take forever.

00:23:37 ◼   ► And it took a while.

00:23:39 ◼   ► It took about, I don't know, like 45 minutes longer

00:23:41 ◼   ► than I would normally prep for upgrade today

00:23:43 ◼   ► to go through it all.

00:23:45 ◼   ► But it was interesting to me in thinking back on it

00:23:48 ◼   ► of how I'm happy that I asked for the feedback there.

00:24:08 ◼   ► Nevertheless, thank you to everybody that wrote in.

00:24:11 ◼   ► What I'm not going to do is read all of these things, but I have aggregated some of the

00:24:15 ◼   ► reasons for why people choose to use the 6th English MacBook Pro and I would like to impart

00:24:20 ◼   ► them upon you. But I did, Jason, I was fascinated by the varied and cool jobs that Upgradients

00:24:27 ◼   ► have. So we heard from, this is just a smattering, doctors, developers, designers, live tour

00:24:35 ◼   ► managers, PR managers, audio engineers, video editors, special effects artists, photographers,

00:24:40 ◼   ► artists, painters, creative directors, theatrical sound designers, music producers, film directors,

00:24:46 ◼   ► and podcast editors. One of those podcast editors is our podcast editor who told me

00:24:51 ◼   ► in Slack, "Thank you, Jim, for why you use the 16-inch MacBook Pro."

00:24:55 ◼   ► Yeah, it's true. And this is just the 16-inch MacBook Pro users who are up gradients. Amazing.

00:25:00 ◼   ► Way more students than I would have expected to. Loads of students. So these are the reasons.

00:25:06 ◼   ► For a lot of people, straight up, bigger display is better.

00:25:10 ◼   ► They just want a bigger display,

00:25:12 ◼   ► especially if using it as a laptop.

00:25:14 ◼   ► Sometimes this can be for screen resolution

00:25:19 ◼   ► and display quality reasons,

00:25:21 ◼   ► which can be vital for design work.

00:25:23 ◼   ► And by and large, especially if they do it

00:25:27 ◼   ► given this machine by their company,

00:25:29 ◼   ► the 16-inch MacBook Pro screen is gonna be better

00:25:32 ◼   ► than whatever external display

00:25:33 ◼   ► they might be plugging into at the office.

00:25:35 ◼   ► If you are on the road a lot for work, there is no display to connect your laptop to, so

00:25:42 ◼   ► you just want the biggest display you can get.

00:25:45 ◼   ► This was one that was fascinating to me and I think is something that might be happening

00:25:48 ◼   ► more now.

00:25:49 ◼   ► If you are used to when you are in the office plugging into an external display, but now

00:25:53 ◼   ► you are in the office for 3 days a week and you are at home for 2 days a week, if you

00:25:57 ◼   ► are going from a 24-27 inch display down to a 14 inch display, that's like a big jump

00:26:02 ◼   ► where 16 at least gets you something that's a bit bigger.

00:26:06 ◼   ► So I find that kind of interesting.

00:26:07 ◼   ► For people that use their external display

00:26:11 ◼   ► with their laptop open, bigger screen is better for that.

00:26:14 ◼   ► And also we heard from a bunch of people

00:26:16 ◼   ► who have eyesight issues and found the 16 inch,

00:26:19 ◼   ► again, like you can just, the scaling can be bigger.

00:26:22 ◼   ► You can make everything bigger if you have eyesight issues.

00:26:25 ◼   ► We heard from some people who just want

00:26:27 ◼   ► the most performance possible

00:26:29 ◼   ► for specific use cases that they have.

00:26:32 ◼   ► Now, so I have a question about this,

00:26:36 ◼   ► which is the MacBook Pro in Apple Silicon,

00:26:40 ◼   ► the MacBook Pro 14 and 16 are basically,

00:26:42 ◼   ► other than the battery life,

00:26:43 ◼   ► the same in terms of performance.

00:26:44 ◼   ► - Correct.

00:26:46 ◼   ► - So what's going on here?

00:26:47 ◼   ► - We got a bunch of people who were telling me

00:26:49 ◼   ► why they chose their laptop when they got it.

00:26:52 ◼   ► So not everybody is using the latest and greatest.

00:26:56 ◼   ► So they may be on an Intel machine

00:26:57 ◼   ► or something like that where they're working on it.

00:26:59 ◼   ► or are so used to Intel, you know, maxing out a 16 inch

00:27:03 ◼   ► or 15 inch before that on Intel,

00:27:06 ◼   ► that they're now just in the habit

00:27:07 ◼   ► of having the larger laptop,

00:27:08 ◼   ► even though it's no longer the case

00:27:09 ◼   ► that it's the only place they can get that performance.

00:27:12 ◼   ► - Yes, that's one of, I'll bring this up now,

00:27:15 ◼   ► which is, so a lot of people just said,

00:27:17 ◼   ► habit from when the smaller machines couldn't cut it.

00:27:20 ◼   ► Right, that was like a thing that I got from people too.

00:27:24 ◼   ► this especially for people using it in clamshell mode.

00:27:29 ◼   ► Like if they're getting a laptop

00:27:30 ◼   ► and always are planning to use it with an external display,

00:27:34 ◼   ► they just want to get the most laptop possible.

00:27:36 ◼   ► So when there were performance differences.

00:27:39 ◼   ► One of the biggest answers that I got about wire 16 inch,

00:27:42 ◼   ► it was just like some,

00:27:44 ◼   ► most people that seem to have it,

00:27:47 ◼   ► got it from their employer.

00:27:49 ◼   ► And so when they're given the choice

00:27:51 ◼   ► of what laptop do you want,

00:27:53 ◼   ► they're just like, I'll have the best one.

00:27:55 ◼   ► Biggest screen, biggest battery,

00:27:56 ◼   ► in some instances biggest performance.

00:27:58 ◼   ► And so they just go with whatever,

00:28:01 ◼   ► because obviously employers tend not to give

00:28:04 ◼   ► desktop machines to people, but will give laptops

00:28:07 ◼   ► and then you can come into the office

00:28:08 ◼   ► and plug in your screen.

00:28:10 ◼   ► And if you're just gonna live that way,

00:28:11 ◼   ► just get the best one possible,

00:28:13 ◼   ► because it's not your money, right?

00:28:15 ◼   ► I heard from some people who say that the 16 inch

00:28:18 ◼   ► feels better to them on the lap,

00:28:21 ◼   ► especially I heard from a couple of people who say,

00:28:22 ◼   ► I'm a bigger person, bigger laptop fits me better

00:28:25 ◼   ► 'cause it covers a great surface area.

00:28:27 ◼   ► Many people who've prescribed to the idea

00:28:30 ◼   ► of one computer to rule them all,

00:28:32 ◼   ► so they only want one machine and they want something

00:28:35 ◼   ► that is both a laptop and a desktop, right?

00:28:38 ◼   ► So bigger makes it closer to something like a desktop.

00:28:41 ◼   ► So they'll go with that way.

00:28:42 ◼   ► - I'm gonna do some real-time follow-up

00:28:44 ◼   ► from our friend Zach, friend of the show Zach

00:28:48 ◼   ► from 9to5Mac who points out that there is high power mode

00:28:51 ◼   ► on the 16 inch model,

00:28:52 ◼   ► which essentially just runs the fans even louder

00:28:55 ◼   ► so that if you're at the very, very top

00:28:58 ◼   ► and you've made the chips so hot

00:28:59 ◼   ► that they have to scale down even on the MacBook Pro,

00:29:02 ◼   ► in high power mode, the fans will run even faster

00:29:06 ◼   ► and are even more annoying in order for you

00:29:09 ◼   ► to get the maximum amount of power.

00:29:11 ◼   ► Not sure how many people are using high power mode,

00:29:12 ◼   ► but there is, that would be technically a speed difference.

00:29:17 ◼   ► It's not what our people were talking about,

00:29:19 ◼   ► but it is a good point that there is high power mode,

00:29:21 ◼   ► a hilarious mode for people who love fan noise.

00:29:25 ◼   ► - There were some people who told me about the idea

00:29:27 ◼   ► of just wanting portability at home.

00:29:30 ◼   ► They don't care about portability on the go.

00:29:33 ◼   ► So like moving a 16 inch laptop around your home is fine,

00:29:38 ◼   ► but you wouldn't put it in a bag.

00:29:40 ◼   ► - Right.

00:29:41 ◼   ► - And also this kind of goes into the last one,

00:29:43 ◼   ► which is limited space.

00:29:44 ◼   ► So if you don't have a desk at home

00:29:47 ◼   ► and you need to set up your laptop

00:29:48 ◼   ► in a common area or whatever.

00:29:50 ◼   ► - The closest you can get to an iMac.

00:29:51 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:29:53 ◼   ► So these were a lot of the reasons.

00:29:55 ◼   ► I had a few people write in to ask why me

00:29:58 ◼   ► as the founder of Plus Club and lover of large iPhones

00:30:01 ◼   ► wouldn't also want the largest laptop, I understand this.

00:30:05 ◼   ► I have back issues in carrying my laptop every day.

00:30:08 ◼   ► I'm going for smallest, lightest.

00:30:10 ◼   ► Like I don't want a big, heavy laptop.

00:30:13 ◼   ► - I wanna throw in here.

00:30:15 ◼   ► I was a one Mac person, laptop,

00:30:20 ◼   ► plugged in at work and using at home in my backpack

00:30:23 ◼   ► every day for like a decade.

00:30:26 ◼   ► And that's why I pushed further and further down

00:30:32 ◼   ► as you know, to the ultimately the 11 inch MacBook Air.

00:30:37 ◼   ► And I don't mind it down there

00:30:39 ◼   ► because I still enjoy the lightness of it

00:30:41 ◼   ► and the small screen doesn't bother me

00:30:43 ◼   ► even though I primarily am using

00:30:44 ◼   ► that you know, this 27 inch display every day.

00:30:47 ◼   ► but that was what got me to prefer thin light laptops.

00:30:52 ◼   ► But I totally see this case that like,

00:30:54 ◼   ► I'm judging it based on,

00:30:55 ◼   ► oh boy, do I wanna carry this thing around and it's huge.

00:30:58 ◼   ► But I get like, if that's your computing device

00:31:00 ◼   ► and it's the only one you get

00:31:02 ◼   ► and you don't have a 27 inch display to dock into

00:31:05 ◼   ► and you wanna have that big display, totally get that.

00:31:07 ◼   ► I totally see that.

00:31:09 ◼   ► It's a, I know, you know,

00:31:11 ◼   ► we have friends who like use them docked on desks, right?

00:31:15 ◼   ► where maybe even the lid closed.

00:31:17 ◼   ► But there are also people,

00:31:19 ◼   ► there are also people who don't have an external monitor,

00:31:23 ◼   ► they work at a desk with a laptop.

00:31:26 ◼   ► Maybe they've got external keyboard and mouse,

00:31:29 ◼   ► but they just put it on their desk,

00:31:31 ◼   ► maybe in a little stand.

00:31:32 ◼   ► And if you're gonna do that, then you have it,

00:31:33 ◼   ► I mean, a 16 inch, it's gonna be a nice,

00:31:37 ◼   ► much bigger display and that's better, I get it, I get that.

00:31:41 ◼   ► - So that's why people use 16 inch MacBook Pros,

00:31:44 ◼   ► all of these things.

00:31:44 ◼   ► to everybody that wrote and genuinely I appreciate

00:31:47 ◼   ► that so many people took time out of their day

00:31:49 ◼   ► to send me in that feedback and help educate me

00:31:52 ◼   ► as to why somebody would want a laptop

00:31:54 ◼   ► so humongous and unwieldy.

00:31:56 ◼   ► - They are very, very large.

00:31:58 ◼   ► I don't like them, but I'm glad.

00:32:00 ◼   ► Like again, they don't have to be,

00:32:03 ◼   ► that's the beauty of it.

00:32:04 ◼   ► And this is the thing that I get this sometimes

00:32:06 ◼   ► with Apple aficionados where they're like,

00:32:09 ◼   ► I don't like this product 'cause I don't wanna buy it.

00:32:10 ◼   ► And they're like very offended that there's a product

00:32:12 ◼   ► that Apple makes that does not appeal to them,

00:32:16 ◼   ► which I always have found weird.

00:32:17 ◼   ► And this is a good example of that,

00:32:18 ◼   ► which is like, you know what?

00:32:20 ◼   ► I love that there's a 16 inch MacBook Pro

00:32:22 ◼   ► for all you weirdos out there who need a giant display.

00:32:24 ◼   ► Like great, that's awesome.

00:32:26 ◼   ► I don't want that computer,

00:32:27 ◼   ► but that's the beauty of it

00:32:28 ◼   ► is they make other computers too, right?

00:32:30 ◼   ► They make vanilla, chocolate,

00:32:32 ◼   ► and other ice cream flavors are also available.

00:32:36 ◼   ► So yeah, it's all good.

00:32:38 ◼   ► It's all good, but it's not for me.

00:32:40 ◼   ► and knowing that it's not for me.

00:32:43 ◼   ► It was fun actually to have the 16 inch,

00:32:46 ◼   ► because this is where this started,

00:32:47 ◼   ► the 16 inch would be my review unit from Apple

00:32:49 ◼   ► instead of the 14 inch,

00:32:50 ◼   ► because it's been a long time

00:32:52 ◼   ► since I held the large Apple laptop.

00:32:56 ◼   ► You know, the last one I got

00:32:57 ◼   ► was the 14 inch MacBook Pro, the M1.

00:32:59 ◼   ► So it was a good reminder

00:33:01 ◼   ► of just how big that computer can get.

00:33:03 ◼   ► - This episode is brought to you by Zocdoc.

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00:35:03 ◼   ► Our thanks to Zocdoc for their support of this show and Relay FM.

00:35:09 ◼   ► Jason it is time for a rumor round up.

00:35:13 ◼   ► Ming-Chi Kuo is reporting that Apple will release a foldable iPad in 2024.

00:35:19 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:35:20 ◼   ► - Paul has said that there are no other new iPad models

00:35:27 ◼   ► expected within the next nine to 12 months from Apple.

00:35:31 ◼   ► The foldable iPad will feature a carbon fiber kickstand.

00:35:36 ◼   ► Your favorite.

00:35:37 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, kickstands are the best.

00:35:40 ◼   ► - Ross Young had previously reported

00:35:42 ◼   ► that Apple was testing a 20 inch display

00:35:45 ◼   ► for a foldable iPad, but said that 2026

00:35:48 ◼   ► would be the earliest timeframe that he would expect

00:35:50 ◼   ► for such a device.

00:35:51 ◼   ► I do not know what to think about this.

00:35:54 ◼   ► This doesn't seem, this doesn't pass my logic test at all.

00:35:59 ◼   ► But I don't know.

00:36:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, look, they, I could, okay.

00:36:07 ◼   ► And he didn't say like it's 20 inch.

00:36:11 ◼   ► - Ross Young said 20 inch.

00:36:13 ◼   ► - Ah, Ross Young said 20 inch.

00:36:14 ◼   ► - I don't believe Ming-Chi Kuo said 20 inch.

00:36:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, it just said that there was a foldable.

00:36:18 ◼   ► So I keep trying to think, what is this?

00:36:21 ◼   ► Right?

00:36:22 ◼   ► What, how, why, Myke, why?

00:36:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:36:26 ◼   ► - So, and there's so few details here.

00:36:30 ◼   ► So one idea was, what if you made a foldable iPad

00:36:34 ◼   ► so that it could be small when you wanted it to be small,

00:36:38 ◼   ► and then big when you wanted it to be big, right?

00:36:41 ◼   ► Like that a huge iPad might be unwieldy for a lot of uses,

00:36:45 ◼   ► but you could fold it and then have it be more

00:36:47 ◼   ► like iPhone-like and then open it up

00:36:51 ◼   ► when you really need the real estate.

00:36:53 ◼   ► And then there's the question of, is it an Inny or an Audi?

00:36:57 ◼   ► That's a great mystery.

00:36:58 ◼   ► - They have to go in.

00:37:00 ◼   ► - Right, they have to go in,

00:37:01 ◼   ► but that means that if you wanna use it,

00:37:03 ◼   ► you either have to have another screen on the backside

00:37:06 ◼   ► or the folding is only for a different kind of mode.

00:37:11 ◼   ► And the kickstand would suggest this.

00:37:13 ◼   ► So this is my best guess about what this is

00:37:16 ◼   ► based on our very scan information,

00:37:18 ◼   ► is if there's a kickstand and it folds,

00:37:21 ◼   ► that what they're really trying to do

00:37:22 ◼   ► is create a big, beautiful iPad,

00:37:26 ◼   ► that if you fold it,

00:37:27 ◼   ► it becomes the magic keyboard, essentially.

00:37:31 ◼   ► That it becomes a laptop,

00:37:32 ◼   ► where you've got a software,

00:37:34 ◼   ► essentially probably input layer down on the bottom part,

00:37:39 ◼   ► that is like where your keyboard would be.

00:37:43 ◼   ► and then an upright part that is the rest

00:37:46 ◼   ► of the software interface so that you end up,

00:37:49 ◼   ► basically you can convert it by folding it

00:37:53 ◼   ► into something with a keyboard plane

00:37:55 ◼   ► and a display plane like a laptop.

00:37:57 ◼   ► That's my best guess.

00:37:59 ◼   ► And that's, I don't know what the logistics

00:38:04 ◼   ► and benefit are of that.

00:38:05 ◼   ► I'm not sure.

00:38:06 ◼   ► - What if this is actually the touchscreen Mac?

00:38:09 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:38:10 ◼   ► - Oh, well, yeah, let's do it.

00:38:12 ◼   ► Well, then when I can boot into macOS,

00:38:14 ◼   ► it just becomes a keyboard and trackpad down there.

00:38:18 ◼   ► And problem solved, right?

00:38:21 ◼   ► I'm something.

00:38:22 ◼   ► - I'm just not, I can't get my head around this one yet.

00:38:26 ◼   ► Like I can't yet see.

00:38:29 ◼   ► - And it could be late 2024.

00:38:31 ◼   ► This could be a thing that like Quo is,

00:38:35 ◼   ► I mean, Quo has been very reliable,

00:38:37 ◼   ► but Quo's information comes from the supply chain.

00:38:39 ◼   ► And I do wonder if this is one of those things

00:38:42 ◼   ► where, I mean, he's positive, right?

00:38:44 ◼   ► That suggests that there's orders are in for this thing.

00:38:47 ◼   ► - He's got information about companies

00:38:49 ◼   ► that will be involved with certain parts

00:38:52 ◼   ► of the carbon fiber process.

00:38:53 ◼   ► That's where this has come from.

00:38:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:38:56 ◼   ► Which is also interesting 'cause you know,

00:38:57 ◼   ► you can make a carbon fiber kickstand,

00:39:00 ◼   ► Lord help us all, on any iPad, right?

00:39:04 ◼   ► It doesn't have to be a folding iPad

00:39:06 ◼   ► for the kickstand to exist.

00:39:07 ◼   ► But you know, he seems very confident.

00:39:09 ◼   ► So whatever is going on here,

00:39:11 ◼   ► like, okay, I mean, Apple's been experimenting internally

00:39:15 ◼   ► with folding iPhones and iPads for a while now.

00:39:18 ◼   ► I just am still trying to get the details of like,

00:39:21 ◼   ► what the benefit is here,

00:39:24 ◼   ► if it's not just pure portability,

00:39:28 ◼   ► that this is a giant iPad that you can fold up

00:39:30 ◼   ► and tuck away and then open up.

00:39:32 ◼   ► And is it this sort of like, well, yeah,

00:39:34 ◼   ► but you can also hold it like a book

00:39:36 ◼   ► and have left and right,

00:39:38 ◼   ► or put it down with the kickstand

00:39:41 ◼   ► and have it be like a laptop.

00:39:43 ◼   ► Maybe this is your iPad studio, Myke, I don't know.

00:39:48 ◼   ► - So like, I want Apple to make a foldable iPad

00:39:53 ◼   ► and I think they will.

00:39:54 ◼   ► I don't know if, 2024 maybe feels soon for me

00:39:59 ◼   ► unless they're doing something I can't conceive of.

00:40:02 ◼   ► And just like this report is weird to me

00:40:04 ◼   ► because like there aren't,

00:40:06 ◼   ► the details that I want in here, right?

00:40:08 ◼   ► Which is what we were talking about.

00:40:09 ◼   ► is like, is this just an iPad

00:40:12 ◼   ► that's got a really large screen

00:40:13 ◼   ► and you just fold it up and put it in your bag

00:40:15 ◼   ► because it's so big?

00:40:16 ◼   ► Or like, is it what I want,

00:40:17 ◼   ► which is like, it's an iPad mini on the outside

00:40:19 ◼   ► and an iPad Pro on the inside, right?

00:40:21 ◼   ► - Right, right.

00:40:23 ◼   ► Well, that's, so one of the use cases

00:40:24 ◼   ► that makes sense for any folding thing,

00:40:26 ◼   ► like you said, that it's gotta be an innie,

00:40:30 ◼   ► is you take the big beautiful screen, you fold it over,

00:40:32 ◼   ► and what you've got is on one of the back sides

00:40:35 ◼   ► is also a screen.

00:40:36 ◼   ► And so now you've got a little tiny iPad mini slash,

00:40:40 ◼   ► you know, giant iPhone, basically iPad mini,

00:40:43 ◼   ► that you could use.

00:40:44 ◼   ► And it's a little thick, it's a little heavy,

00:40:46 ◼   ► but you can use it.

00:40:48 ◼   ► And it's small and you can hold it in your hand

00:40:50 ◼   ► and you can read with it at night.

00:40:51 ◼   ► And then you unfold it and it's like, boom,

00:40:54 ◼   ► now I can draw things and it's super, you know,

00:40:56 ◼   ► huge and beautiful.

00:40:58 ◼   ► And then if that's,

00:41:01 ◼   ► but that requires a screen on the back,

00:41:02 ◼   ► which is pretty wild and adds to the expense.

00:41:04 ◼   ► and I am skeptical that they would do it.

00:41:07 ◼   ► So the alternative to that is this idea of like,

00:41:10 ◼   ► well, it's multiple modes, right?

00:41:11 ◼   ► Whether it's in horizontal or vertical,

00:41:13 ◼   ► you've got like a book view

00:41:14 ◼   ► and you've got like a keyboard view,

00:41:16 ◼   ► and then I don't know,

00:41:18 ◼   ► and then you close it and just to fold it and put it away.

00:41:21 ◼   ► I don't know, it's, I mean,

00:41:23 ◼   ► you have used foldable devices and I haven't.

00:41:27 ◼   ► So, I mean, you have a better perspective on this than me,

00:41:30 ◼   ► but it seems like, you know,

00:41:32 ◼   ► that for Apple to do a folding device,

00:41:35 ◼   ► they must have,

00:41:37 ◼   ► like Apple standard is that they must have a reason

00:41:40 ◼   ► why you would pay for it, right?

00:41:42 ◼   ► There needs to actually be some appeal for it.

00:41:44 ◼   ► And maybe that's in clever things they do in software,

00:41:46 ◼   ► but like there's gotta be some reason for it.

00:41:50 ◼   ► Folding isn't enough in and of itself.

00:41:52 ◼   ► It needs to bring benefit.

00:41:54 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:41:55 ◼   ► I could imagine that a big thing that they do

00:41:57 ◼   ► is somewhat similar to the original iPhone,

00:42:00 ◼   ► which is just like, this thing exists,

00:42:02 ◼   ► but it's clunky everywhere else,

00:42:04 ◼   ► and we found a way to make it really smooth and fluid.

00:42:07 ◼   ► And like the way that you transition

00:42:10 ◼   ► between outside and inside, it works really well.

00:42:14 ◼   ► 'Cause other devices do this, and they allow for like,

00:42:17 ◼   ► you know, you're doing one thing on the other screen,

00:42:18 ◼   ► you open it up and it's there.

00:42:20 ◼   ► But there is an element of clunkiness to some of it,

00:42:22 ◼   ► and maybe they found some,

00:42:24 ◼   ► maybe they just work to make that smoother,

00:42:26 ◼   ► but I still wanna see something hardware related from them,

00:42:31 ◼   ► which is the key part, as you're mentioning,

00:42:34 ◼   ► of like, what is your reason

00:42:37 ◼   ► other than everyone else is doing it?

00:42:40 ◼   ► That's not good enough reason, I think,

00:42:42 ◼   ► for Apple right now.

00:42:43 ◼   ► - Right, I think, like I said,

00:42:46 ◼   ► I think one argument would be it is an iPad

00:42:49 ◼   ► that is its own Magic Keyboard, right?

00:42:51 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:42:52 ◼   ► - I mean, I'll grant you it's a touchscreen

00:42:54 ◼   ► and not a physical keyboard,

00:42:56 ◼   ► but if it's a big display and you can bend it basically

00:43:01 ◼   ► so that it suddenly goes on a table

00:43:03 ◼   ► and you're doing work on it, interesting idea.

00:43:06 ◼   ► I'm a little skeptical of how that would actually work

00:43:08 ◼   ► and whether that would be any good,

00:43:10 ◼   ► but I'm sure that they've tried all that stuff out.

00:43:12 ◼   ► And we've talked a lot about a larger iPad

00:43:16 ◼   ► being great for artists and stuff,

00:43:18 ◼   ► but the folding part of it suggests that again,

00:43:21 ◼   ► it's large, but also you can fold it to do something.

00:43:26 ◼   ► better. And what is that? And that's all missing here because again, this is what happens when

00:43:34 ◼   ► you get something from the supply chain. I have no doubt though, that if Apple is going

00:43:38 ◼   ► to do something like this, it's not just going to be, "Look at us, we think our folding is

00:43:42 ◼   ► good." It's going to be, "We did clever things with our software combined with the folding

00:43:50 ◼   ► to do stuff that makes it great, right?

00:43:52 ◼   ► Like that has to be the pitch for Apple.

00:43:55 ◼   ► I mean, they base, I mean, in some ways,

00:43:58 ◼   ► Apple's done a lot of the work here

00:44:00 ◼   ► because a folded thing is split view, basically.

00:44:05 ◼   ► So they've done some of the work here already,

00:44:08 ◼   ► but like, what is that?

00:44:09 ◼   ► What is the secret sauce?

00:44:11 ◼   ► Sorry to use the secret sauce metaphor,

00:44:13 ◼   ► but like, seriously,

00:44:14 ◼   ► what is the thing that's Apple's combination

00:44:16 ◼   ► of maybe some hardware that's a little bit different

00:44:18 ◼   ► are better in its approach than some of the stuff

00:44:21 ◼   ► that's out there today, and the software that underlies it,

00:44:24 ◼   ► that makes it make sense as a product.

00:44:26 ◼   ► And a supply chain report isn't gonna tell us that,

00:44:28 ◼   ► so we just sort of have to sit here and scratch our heads.

00:44:31 ◼   ► - The information is reporting that Apple is working

00:44:34 ◼   ► on a way for users to make their own AR apps using Siri.

00:44:39 ◼   ► This is another, and the rumor roundup today

00:44:41 ◼   ► is there are two stories that everyone's reporting on

00:44:44 ◼   ► that Myke can't get his head around.

00:44:46 ◼   ► This is the next one.

00:44:47 ◼   ► to read you a quote from the information.

00:44:50 ◼   ► Apple hopes that even people who don't know computer code could tell the headset via the

00:44:55 ◼   ► Siri voice assistant to build an AR app that could then be made available via Apple's App

00:45:01 ◼   ► Store for others to download. The tool, for example, could allow users to build an app

00:45:07 ◼   ► with virtual animals moving around a room and over or around real life objects without

00:45:12 ◼   ► the need to design the animal from scratch, program its animations and calculate its movement

00:45:17 ◼   ► in a 3D space of obstacles.

00:45:20 ◼   ► This is no offense to the information, this is nonsense what you've written here.

00:45:25 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:45:26 ◼   ► It's either nonsense that they've written or it's nonsense that Apple believes or somebody

00:45:31 ◼   ► at Apple wants to believe.

00:45:33 ◼   ► It's a little like, "Myke, this is the headset equivalent of we're gonna make a car without

00:45:38 ◼   ► a steering wheel."

00:45:39 ◼   ► Right, but like I feel…

00:45:41 ◼   ► - What?

00:45:42 ◼   ► - One, I mean, MacCatter, maybe I'm being a bit harsh,

00:45:44 ◼   ► but actually the way this is written

00:45:46 ◼   ► is very strangely worded,

00:45:48 ◼   ► but also I just feel like you've got to know

00:45:53 ◼   ► that what is being said here is,

00:45:56 ◼   ► this isn't how it's gonna be.

00:45:58 ◼   ► - No, you're right, it's nonsense.

00:46:00 ◼   ► It's like virtual animals moving around a room

00:46:05 ◼   ► and over around real life objects--

00:46:06 ◼   ► - What kind of example is that?

00:46:07 ◼   ► Like that's not an app. - Without the need

00:46:09 ◼   ► to design the animal from scratch.

00:46:10 ◼   ► Yeah, it's an app where animals move around.

00:46:13 ◼   ► Animal movement app, come on.

00:46:15 ◼   ► - Here's what I think this is, if it's anything.

00:46:19 ◼   ► This is some form of like a playgrounds, right?

00:46:23 ◼   ► Potentially, it could be one.

00:46:25 ◼   ► But the other is, this could be Apple is trying to work on

00:46:30 ◼   ► something akin to like a Horizon Worlds, right?

00:46:33 ◼   ► That Meta have, which is essentially Roblox in VR, right?

00:46:39 ◼   ► where people can make their own games and experiences

00:46:43 ◼   ► and share them with others.

00:46:44 ◼   ► - I think this feels like a tech demo like that,

00:46:48 ◼   ► that was, you could even do this with Siri.

00:46:50 ◼   ► And that has been seen by somebody

00:46:53 ◼   ► who's leaked this to the information, right?

00:46:55 ◼   ► 'Cause I can see that, right?

00:46:57 ◼   ► Where it's like, okay, we're in a world,

00:46:58 ◼   ► we've mapped a world,

00:47:01 ◼   ► we've used our interface to sort of like set the scene

00:47:05 ◼   ► and we've dropped in some furniture or whatever.

00:47:08 ◼   ► And you can even create custom elements

00:47:13 ◼   ► using the voice assistant.

00:47:15 ◼   ► And they show something about like, put in a tiger.

00:47:17 ◼   ► And there's like, oh, there's a 3D model of a tiger.

00:47:20 ◼   ► And you're like, make the tiger purple.

00:47:22 ◼   ► And like, I can see that that would be like a demo.

00:47:26 ◼   ► And I think you're right.

00:47:27 ◼   ► Like calling it an app is doing a lot of work here

00:47:31 ◼   ► for something that feels more like a configuration

00:47:34 ◼   ► or content or a playground

00:47:36 ◼   ► or something that's a little more like Roblox, right?

00:47:39 ◼   ► But even then, the Siri part of it

00:47:41 ◼   ► seems a little more aspirational than anything else, right?

00:47:44 ◼   ► 'Cause I have no doubt

00:47:45 ◼   ► that they will wanna do stuff like this,

00:47:47 ◼   ► but creating it via the Siri voices is like,

00:47:51 ◼   ► well, probably not, right?

00:47:52 ◼   ► Like probably you could do that,

00:47:55 ◼   ► but it would be very hard

00:47:57 ◼   ► and that there's probably other elements to this.

00:47:59 ◼   ► But yeah, I'm sure at the root,

00:48:02 ◼   ► this feels like you'll be able to create

00:48:04 ◼   ► kind of like a custom thing,

00:48:06 ◼   ► like that's more like a wallpaper or a,

00:48:11 ◼   ► you know, an interface plugin or something like that

00:48:14 ◼   ► that's just like sort of very abstract

00:48:16 ◼   ► and then sell it or give it away

00:48:19 ◼   ► or distribute it somehow somewhere, right?

00:48:21 ◼   ► Like that's, that sounds like more,

00:48:24 ◼   ► you're right, these are both sort of us

00:48:25 ◼   ► are trying to interpret baffling reports into making sense.

00:48:29 ◼   ► And I don't know, I don't know if the tea leaves

00:48:33 ◼   ► are functional today or not,

00:48:35 ◼   ► but that's, yes, animals moving around a room.

00:48:40 ◼   ► App, .app.

00:48:43 ◼   ► - I don't mean to like,

00:48:44 ◼   ► I don't mean to like bag on people, right?

00:48:46 ◼   ► The information do a great job.

00:48:47 ◼   ► This just doesn't feel like very good reporting to me.

00:48:49 ◼   ► Like it doesn't feel like it's passing

00:48:54 ◼   ► just a general common sense test that like,

00:48:57 ◼   ► these are apps available in the app store.

00:49:00 ◼   ► Like, it's not that, is it?

00:49:02 ◼   ► Like, I'm sure it's something,

00:49:03 ◼   ► I'm sure you've heard something.

00:49:05 ◼   ► but like, it's not an app, is it?

00:49:07 ◼   ► Right?

00:49:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, made available by Apple's app store.

00:49:09 ◼   ► - It's downloadable content from somewhere

00:49:12 ◼   ► that maybe you can message to a friend,

00:49:14 ◼   ► but like, no one thinks seriously

00:49:19 ◼   ► that you will be able to tell Siri, make an app,

00:49:23 ◼   ► and then with everything that is needed

00:49:25 ◼   ► to distribute apps on the app store,

00:49:28 ◼   ► that that's all it takes.

00:49:30 ◼   ► That is not a thing that Apple's going to do.

00:49:34 ◼   ► - Right. - Right.

00:49:35 ◼   ► So there's, I think that this is a telephone game problem

00:49:39 ◼   ► on one level. - No, 100%, it is, right?

00:49:41 ◼   ► - Right, and then the, you know how Mark Gurman

00:49:46 ◼   ► has to say like, "The people said."

00:49:48 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah. - So this is like,

00:49:50 ◼   ► "Animals moving around a room, the telephone said,"

00:49:53 ◼   ► is what happened here, right?

00:49:54 ◼   ► Where it's like, "No, no, that's not what it, no."

00:49:57 ◼   ► And again, yeah, I don't wanna fault the information.

00:49:59 ◼   ► They have a source.

00:50:00 ◼   ► But again, we, as we often do here on Upgrade,

00:50:04 ◼   ► we start to ask like, well,

00:50:05 ◼   ► how did that source get their information?

00:50:06 ◼   ► And what does it sound like?

00:50:07 ◼   ► And in this case, it sounds completely ridiculous.

00:50:10 ◼   ► So I think we have to assume

00:50:12 ◼   ► that there is some super aspirational,

00:50:14 ◼   ► some demo that happened that somebody saw

00:50:18 ◼   ► that has some things in it

00:50:20 ◼   ► that when described became this paragraph,

00:50:25 ◼   ► these paragraphs that are so bizarre in the information,

00:50:29 ◼   ► because it's a lot that got lost in translation,

00:50:31 ◼   ► I think is what's going on here.

00:50:33 ◼   ► - And I will raise my hand up and say,

00:50:35 ◼   ► I have gotten this from a nine to five Mac article

00:50:38 ◼   ► that's quoted this.

00:50:39 ◼   ► Maybe I should subscribe to the information

00:50:42 ◼   ► and read the whole thing.

00:50:43 ◼   ► I should probably do that.

00:50:44 ◼   ► But I'll just say these quotes to me,

00:50:47 ◼   ► they don't, it doesn't make any sense.

00:50:49 ◼   ► - Information does great work.

00:50:50 ◼   ► I think they're trying to,

00:50:52 ◼   ► they got this detail about this product

00:50:54 ◼   ► that everybody wants to know about.

00:50:55 ◼   ► And they try to make sense of it

00:50:57 ◼   ► because that's all they can do

00:50:59 ◼   ► because it's a source giving them information.

00:51:02 ◼   ► It's not their fault really that it's bananas.

00:51:05 ◼   ► It's just bananas.

00:51:06 ◼   ► That's like, it's just what it is.

00:51:09 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah.

00:51:12 ◼   ► We should, yeah, we should subscribe to the information.

00:51:13 ◼   ► I don't subscribe to the information either.

00:51:15 ◼   ► And it's mostly because like the articles that they publish,

00:51:18 ◼   ► 'cause they do a lot of really good work,

00:51:20 ◼   ► but the articles they publish that I'm interested in

00:51:21 ◼   ► is such a tiny fraction.

00:51:23 ◼   ► - That's the thing.

00:51:24 ◼   ► - It's not necessarily what I wanna do,

00:51:27 ◼   ► but they do good work.

00:51:29 ◼   ► This is a scoop, which is nice.

00:51:30 ◼   ► it's just so strange that we all have to process,

00:51:34 ◼   ► what does that mean?

00:51:37 ◼   ► And sometimes what happens is that our friend Mark Gurman

00:51:41 ◼   ► does a thing the next week,

00:51:43 ◼   ► who's having gone to his sources and said,

00:51:46 ◼   ► "What's the deal here?"

00:51:47 ◼   ► And he gets the refined version where they're like,

00:51:50 ◼   ► "Well, here's what's really going on."

00:51:52 ◼   ► And that might yet happen with this one.

00:51:54 ◼   ► I wouldn't put it past him.

00:51:55 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:51:57 ◼   ► Speaking of, we have a big report from Mark Gurman.

00:52:01 ◼   ► - Mark Gurman, he's been busy, busy, busy boy.

00:52:03 ◼   ► - He's done one of his, I feel like,

00:52:05 ◼   ► so this is his like flag in the ground,

00:52:09 ◼   ► I am telling you everything I know about a product now.

00:52:12 ◼   ► - Yes, including previous reports and current reports,

00:52:15 ◼   ► and here's what it all is about the headset.

00:52:18 ◼   ► - And there's a bunch of quotes I wanna read in this one.

00:52:21 ◼   ► So this will be a bit text heavy,

00:52:23 ◼   ► but this one was one where it felt like

00:52:25 ◼   ► trying to summarize some things weren't right.

00:52:29 ◼   ► Like there's a lot of interesting details.

00:52:31 ◼   ► So I'm gonna go through each part

00:52:33 ◼   ► and we can stop as we would like to.

00:52:36 ◼   ► I do pay for Bloomberg, by the way.

00:52:38 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:52:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, me too. - I don't pay

00:52:40 ◼   ► for the information, I just pay for Bloomberg because--

00:52:42 ◼   ► - Me too, if we're detailing what we pay for.

00:52:44 ◼   ► - We use Mark's work every week,

00:52:48 ◼   ► that I kind of felt like it was the right thing to do.

00:52:50 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, no, I absolutely pay for Bloomberg.

00:52:53 ◼   ► - Plus I wanna read,

00:52:54 ◼   ► Obviously everybody does great work in summarizing,

00:52:57 ◼   ► but sometimes I do actually want to read

00:52:59 ◼   ► exactly what he said.

00:53:01 ◼   ► - Yeah. - And so here we are.

00:53:02 ◼   ► - I find it, and I get other value out of Bloomberg,

00:53:05 ◼   ► there's a bunch of stuff in there,

00:53:06 ◼   ► a bunch of their newsletters that are great.

00:53:08 ◼   ► And so I found myself going,

00:53:10 ◼   ► hitting the paywall at Bloomberg all the time.

00:53:13 ◼   ► - Me too. - And then Mark started

00:53:14 ◼   ► his newsletter where he was putting extra stuff

00:53:16 ◼   ► in the paid version of the newsletter.

00:53:18 ◼   ► And I was like, okay, well,

00:53:19 ◼   ► if I'm ever gonna subscribe to Bloomberg, now is the time.

00:53:21 ◼   ► and so I absolutely have for more than a year now.

00:53:24 ◼   ► - I'll tell you, when you subscribe to Bloomberg,

00:53:26 ◼   ► you have to spend about a week

00:53:27 ◼   ► tuning your email preferences.

00:53:29 ◼   ► - Oh boy, there's a lot of emails.

00:53:31 ◼   ► - They want to send you a lot of email.

00:53:33 ◼   ► They got it away now.

00:53:35 ◼   ► So first up is Mark Gorman is really doubling down

00:53:39 ◼   ► on Reality Pro as the name.

00:53:41 ◼   ► Now I'm assuming it will be called Apple Reality Pro.

00:53:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, sure.

00:53:45 ◼   ► - Right, but that's, I think maybe from now

00:53:47 ◼   ► we can just call it that instead of the headset

00:53:49 ◼   ► we can use this interchangeably as we wish.

00:53:52 ◼   ► Quote number one. Its core features will include advanced FaceTime-based video conferencing

00:53:58 ◼   ► and meeting rooms. The headset's FaceTime software will realistically render a user's

00:54:03 ◼   ► face and full body in virtual reality. Those avatars will allow two people, each of an

00:54:08 ◼   ► Apple headset, to communicate and feel like they're in the same room. The technology

00:54:13 ◼   ► differs from virtual meeting rooms on Meta's headset, which creates a more cartoon-like

00:54:18 ◼   ► avatar of the user.

00:54:20 ◼   ► Because of the immense processing power necessary

00:54:22 ◼   ► for the feature, the headset will only support

00:54:25 ◼   ► realistic avatars during one-on-one video chats.

00:54:28 ◼   ► It will still allow for FaceTime sessions

00:54:30 ◼   ► with several people, but additional users

00:54:33 ◼   ► will be displayed as an icon or Memoji.

00:54:35 ◼   ► So what is an advanced avatar?

00:54:42 ◼   ► What is that gonna be?

00:54:45 ◼   ► I feel like this is trying to communicate

00:54:48 ◼   ► that they're gonna try to make it seem like it's you, right?

00:54:51 ◼   ► Like human body proportions, not cartoon body proportions,

00:54:54 ◼   ► and something that's based on your actual face,

00:54:56 ◼   ► whether it's a face model that they build,

00:55:02 ◼   ► or they're looking at your expressions

00:55:03 ◼   ► and trying to adjust, I don't know, right?

00:55:05 ◼   ► And it could be uncanny, right?

00:55:06 ◼   ► But what he's saying here is that the attempt

00:55:09 ◼   ► is to have it be less cartoony than meta,

00:55:13 ◼   ► which is their little blobby, Memoji-like kind of characters

00:55:18 ◼   ► and more realistic that they felt like,

00:55:22 ◼   ► 'cause meta stuff does make it feel like

00:55:24 ◼   ► you're in the same room in a way, right?

00:55:26 ◼   ► Because it puts you in that virtual environment.

00:55:28 ◼   ► There is some realism to it,

00:55:30 ◼   ► but this is Apple trying to say,

00:55:31 ◼   ► we want it to be even more like you're in the same room

00:55:34 ◼   ► with the person you're talking to.

00:55:35 ◼   ► However, if you wanna talk to more than one person,

00:55:37 ◼   ► the rest of them will be cartoon avatars,

00:55:39 ◼   ► which is a funny move.

00:55:40 ◼   ► - That's a funny quote.

00:55:41 ◼   ► - For processing power, probably more than anything.

00:55:43 ◼   ► else right? Yeah but like I wonder like what are we gonna hit an uncanny valley here like

00:55:50 ◼   ► Memoji exists like why not it's weird to me like just go with Memoji like why over complicate

00:55:57 ◼   ► it? I think they're trying to do better right I think that's what it is is can we make it

00:56:01 ◼   ► so that it's more you and if they go down that path and they feel like actually this

00:56:08 ◼   ► is good, right? Like this is better than the all Memoji experience. I could see them going

00:56:14 ◼   ► down that path. It's interesting that they went down that path and realized that it takes

00:56:17 ◼   ► so much processing power to do it that they have to limit it to a one-on-one conversation.

00:56:22 ◼   ► But still, I mean, the truth is, I think a lot of the applications for this stuff are

00:56:26 ◼   ► going to be for groups of people to be together, at which point it's not going to be like this.

00:56:31 ◼   ► It's going to be Memoji, which is fine. I do worry about the uncanny valley thing, right?

00:56:36 ◼   ► Like if you take a scan of my face and then you're trying to map my expressions or stuff,

00:56:41 ◼   ► it's going to get real lawnmower man really fast.

00:56:44 ◼   ► I expect there will still be almost like a character creation kind of tool, but it will

00:56:49 ◼   ► be more human-like.

00:56:51 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:56:52 ◼   ► I can't imagine that I'm going to use my phone, scan my face, and then that's like imposed

00:56:58 ◼   ► on a body.

00:56:59 ◼   ► I just...

00:57:00 ◼   ► I can.

00:57:01 ◼   ► Okay.

00:57:02 ◼   ► All right.

00:57:03 ◼   ► I can.

00:57:04 ◼   ► I can see them doing that.

00:57:06 ◼   ► they've got your face already.

00:57:07 ◼   ► They got your face and face ID, right?

00:57:08 ◼   ► Like they can put dots on your face

00:57:10 ◼   ► and they can use their depth and stuff

00:57:14 ◼   ► and make a model of a creepy life,

00:57:17 ◼   ► like death mask model of Myke.

00:57:19 ◼   ► And then they map it.

00:57:21 ◼   ► And then they've got their cameras on the thing

00:57:23 ◼   ► that are taking images of your face

00:57:26 ◼   ► while it's in the headset.

00:57:27 ◼   ► And then they do, right?

00:57:28 ◼   ► Like I think they could do it,

00:57:29 ◼   ► but the question is like, how weird is that?

00:57:31 ◼   ► - How's it gonna look?

00:57:32 ◼   ► And also like there are many features

00:57:34 ◼   ► that we'll talk about here.

00:57:36 ◼   ► where this feels like a 1.0, and this is it, right?

00:57:40 ◼   ► Like, you can only do it with two people.

00:57:42 ◼   ► Now, you know in the future that will change,

00:57:44 ◼   ► but it's like, also being realistic.

00:57:47 ◼   ► They know that they can,

00:57:48 ◼   ► if they know they can do it with two people,

00:57:50 ◼   ► just do it with two people,

00:57:51 ◼   ► because for the foreseeable future,

00:57:53 ◼   ► not a lot of people will be doing these calls

00:57:56 ◼   ► with more than one person.

00:57:57 ◼   ► - And they wanna show it off, right?

00:57:59 ◼   ► So it's like, if this is dazzling,

00:58:02 ◼   ► they're gonna be like, "Oh, you know,

00:58:03 ◼   ► "Me emoji is great and all, but look at this.

00:58:05 ◼   ► It's like you're really there with another person.

00:58:07 ◼   ► Whoa.

00:58:08 ◼   ► And then everyone's like, "Wow."

00:58:10 ◼   ► But it's just for one, but later it'll be for more.

00:58:12 ◼   ► Because it's 1.0, right?

00:58:14 ◼   ► So you try to dazzle them,

00:58:15 ◼   ► but then you've got that moment where you're like,

00:58:16 ◼   ► "Mm, but not completely yet."

00:58:19 ◼   ► Everybody else is a MooMoji,

00:58:21 ◼   ► but your best pal can be human.

00:58:24 ◼   ► All your second tier pals are MooMoji.

00:58:27 ◼   ► That's just how it's gonna have to be.

00:58:29 ◼   ► - Gorman states that hand tracking

00:58:31 ◼   ► is gonna be the primary interface.

00:58:33 ◼   ► This is something that we've heard before,

00:58:36 ◼   ► but a lot of pinching, tapping, pointing,

00:58:39 ◼   ► that kind of stuff.

00:58:40 ◼   ► - Yep, yep, it's gonna be a real minority report

00:58:43 ◼   ► going on there.

00:58:44 ◼   ► I get it, like I, again, with the Quest 2,

00:58:47 ◼   ► I've got the little handset thingies.

00:58:49 ◼   ► They are nice because they allow for a specificity of input

00:58:54 ◼   ► that the hand gestures, which the Quest actually does have,

00:58:59 ◼   ► don't provide, but they are abstract.

00:59:03 ◼   ► And I can see that Apple doesn't want you to have game controllers in your hands when you're using this.

00:59:10 ◼   ► They want you to feel natural. And that means gestures.

00:59:16 ◼   ► So they better be good, right? Because that's the danger of relying on gestures,

00:59:21 ◼   ► is you've got to be really good at recognizing physical gestures in order to use them.

00:59:25 ◼   ► Quote, "Gaming is expected to be a popular offering from third-party developers,

00:59:31 ◼   ► So I don't know how those two things go together.

00:59:34 ◼   ► There will be some games

00:59:36 ◼   ► that will be able to use hand tracking.

00:59:38 ◼   ► - So my guess is that there will be controllers.

00:59:41 ◼   ► That is my guess.

00:59:41 ◼   ► Is that Apple will either have a partner

00:59:44 ◼   ► or Apple will make their own.

00:59:47 ◼   ► It sounds, I mean,

00:59:48 ◼   ► Apple has never really made a game controller.

00:59:50 ◼   ► So it may be that they are going to use, you know,

00:59:54 ◼   ► have a third party standard

00:59:56 ◼   ► for third party VR input controllers.

00:59:58 ◼   ► Maybe they'll make them themselves.

01:00:00 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:00:00 ◼   ► having used the quest, having those little grippy things in your hands makes a big difference when you're doing

01:00:07 ◼   ► certain kinds of game input, but I can also see them saying what we really want is using gestures for gaming.

01:00:14 ◼   ► I just have a hard time believing that that's gonna be all there is. So they're gonna have to do

01:00:17 ◼   ► controller support. Right, because both things can be true, right?

01:00:21 ◼   ► Like they could make a controller but not put it in the box or they could

01:00:26 ◼   ► spec out a controller for somebody else and not put it in the box or whatever right as you're saying which and

01:00:33 ◼   ► But there be some games that would and could work with hand gestures and that would be great

01:00:39 ◼   ► But then some that you would need a controller for like if you want to do something a little bit more specific

01:00:44 ◼   ► Or for a lot of companies that would want to port their existing VR game over they were built with controllers in mind

01:00:50 ◼   ► And so that's not gonna it's not gonna fly for a lot of those games. So

01:00:56 ◼   ► Apple are developing VR video content of their own and they're also pitching other companies like Disney

01:01:01 ◼   ► To actually make video content you can be involved in like feel like you're in but also they're working on creating

01:01:09 ◼   ► Environments for watching traditional content in a 3d space which we've spoken about before. Yeah. I I actually think this is a winner

01:01:16 ◼   ► One is the idea that they're gonna try to do

01:01:20 ◼   ► I think VR, like sports is a good example,

01:01:24 ◼   ► where their MLS partnership might be a good example,

01:01:26 ◼   ► or their major league baseball thing.

01:01:28 ◼   ► And I can see them working with other companies,

01:01:32 ◼   ► because yeah, immersive, especially for live sports

01:01:35 ◼   ► is interesting, right?

01:01:36 ◼   ► Like the NBA has done this a little bit on the quest,

01:01:40 ◼   ► where you can, there are a handful of games they do

01:01:42 ◼   ► every year that are in the Horizons worlds,

01:01:44 ◼   ► and you can go and sit courtside.

01:01:47 ◼   ► And it's 180 degree camera, so basically it's like

01:01:49 ◼   ► you're sitting court side and you can turn your head

01:01:51 ◼   ► and you can watch the players go by and that's kind of cool.

01:01:55 ◼   ► And then the 3D stuff,

01:01:56 ◼   ► I know we have talked about it before,

01:01:58 ◼   ► but the idea very quickly is that the advantage of it

01:02:00 ◼   ► over something like a 3D movie is that a 3D movie,

01:02:02 ◼   ► they have the projector and you put on the glasses

01:02:04 ◼   ► and it's like dimmer because they have to take

01:02:07 ◼   ► half the light from the left eye and half of the right.

01:02:09 ◼   ► And 3D content in a headset,

01:02:11 ◼   ► you're wearing the headset already.

01:02:13 ◼   ► So it's just 3D content.

01:02:14 ◼   ► And not only have there been lots of 3D movies made, right?

01:02:17 ◼   ► So they can put all of those in Apple's library

01:02:20 ◼   ► or on streaming apps or whatever,

01:02:23 ◼   ► try to get the 3D content to have another use for it

01:02:26 ◼   ► outside of the movie theater.

01:02:27 ◼   ► That's kind of cool.

01:02:29 ◼   ► And then you can do other stuff.

01:02:31 ◼   ► You can do virtual movie theaters

01:02:33 ◼   ► with your friends and stuff.

01:02:34 ◼   ► So it, which is basically SharePlay taken up a level.

01:02:37 ◼   ► Like all this stuff has been worked on in the background,

01:02:39 ◼   ► I think in part to add that stuff to iOS and macOS,

01:02:43 ◼   ► but also to get it ready.

01:02:45 ◼   ► Like SharePlay is a great example

01:02:46 ◼   ► of something that's probably prioritized

01:02:50 ◼   ► because of the headset thing.

01:02:51 ◼   ► And I think that there's a market,

01:02:54 ◼   ► having watched a couple of movies

01:02:56 ◼   ► entirely wearing the Quest 2,

01:02:58 ◼   ► and it seems like, oh, you're wearing a headset

01:03:01 ◼   ► for the two hours and all that.

01:03:02 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, but it's not a bad experience.

01:03:05 ◼   ► And with what the specs of this thing are meant to be,

01:03:09 ◼   ► I think it will be actually a really nice experience.

01:03:11 ◼   ► So yeah, this one, again,

01:03:15 ◼   ► not enough to sell it on its own, but it's a, I think a good feature that could be popular.

01:03:22 ◼   ► The headset will be able to serve as an external display for a connected Mac, says Mark Gorman,

01:03:28 ◼   ► and replicate many functions of iPhones and iPads. The headset's operating system, internally

01:03:33 ◼   ► called XROS, will have many of the same features as an iPhone and iPad but in a 3D environment.

01:03:40 ◼   ► That includes Safari, Photos, Mail, Messages, and the Calendar app.

01:03:45 ◼   ► And it will also have apps for the company's services, such as the App Store to install

01:03:49 ◼   ► third-party software, TV+, music, and podcasts.

01:03:52 ◼   ► The company is working on health tracking functions as well.

01:03:55 ◼   ► Not surprising, right?

01:03:57 ◼   ► Like the ability to run iPad and iPhone apps just in the space, and then connect, which

01:04:02 ◼   ► is actually what Meta does.

01:04:06 ◼   ► Connect to your desktop.

01:04:07 ◼   ► that doesn't do it very well.

01:04:08 ◼   ► But the idea that if you've got a Mac,

01:04:11 ◼   ► you'll essentially be able to do screen sharing

01:04:13 ◼   ► and connect to the Mac and have a virtual Mac as well.

01:04:15 ◼   ► - I've actually been pretty impressed

01:04:16 ◼   ► with that experience myself.

01:04:18 ◼   ► It's worked very well for me.

01:04:20 ◼   ► - On meta?

01:04:21 ◼   ► - Mm-hmm.

01:04:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's what I don't, I mean, I think it's janky,

01:04:25 ◼   ► but I think it was, I was impressed that it worked at all.

01:04:29 ◼   ► It's low resolution and it's kind of janky,

01:04:31 ◼   ► but yeah, you can sit at, I mean,

01:04:32 ◼   ► literally what we're talking about here is you can sit

01:04:35 ◼   ► at a virtual desk in a virtual room

01:04:37 ◼   ► and have a virtual version of your Mac screen on the desk.

01:04:41 ◼   ► And you might say, why?

01:04:44 ◼   ► But like, if you're in a meeting and you wanna do,

01:04:46 ◼   ► like the idea here is like, it's for serious business.

01:04:48 ◼   ► You know, like you're doing a virtual business meeting

01:04:52 ◼   ► and you can have your virtual laptop with you

01:04:55 ◼   ► while you're talking and presenting

01:04:57 ◼   ► or checking a spreadsheet, I don't know, whatever.

01:05:00 ◼   ► So that's an interesting idea as well,

01:05:03 ◼   ► that you've got access to max via a remote connection

01:05:06 ◼   ► and then essentially iPhone and iPad apps

01:05:08 ◼   ► just in the environment.

01:05:09 ◼   ► Create a 3D Apple device dashboard around you.

01:05:15 ◼   ► - In theory with that, you could create 10 screens, right?

01:05:22 ◼   ► 'Cause it's all virtual.

01:05:23 ◼   ► So that's cool, right?

01:05:24 ◼   ► - Exactly.

01:05:25 ◼   ► - You can do that in meta stuff.

01:05:26 ◼   ► You can just add screens.

01:05:27 ◼   ► So like you could do this in Apple.

01:05:28 ◼   ► - You could add different apps in different places, right?

01:05:30 ◼   ► Like put this app here, put this app here,

01:05:32 ◼   ► for this app over here.

01:05:34 ◼   ► And then if their hand tracking is good, right?

01:05:39 ◼   ► Then you're doing touch gestures, essentially.

01:05:43 ◼   ► - Gorman does say that there is an expectation

01:05:46 ◼   ► that you would just be able to use a keyboard and mouse

01:05:48 ◼   ► and all that kind of stuff too, right?

01:05:50 ◼   ► - Sure.

01:05:51 ◼   ► - 'Cause you can then use it in the AR mode,

01:05:53 ◼   ► like the mixed reality modes.

01:05:55 ◼   ► You can see the keyboards, see the screens.

01:05:58 ◼   ► Think of how many people, Jason,

01:05:59 ◼   ► would be able to drop their 16 inch MacBook Pros

01:06:01 ◼   ► if this became a reality.

01:06:02 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, just put your MacBook Pro in your head

01:06:05 ◼   ► and then it's as big a screen as you need it to be.

01:06:08 ◼   ► - Okay, so yeah, the experience quote,

01:06:12 ◼   ► "The experience should feel familiar to Apple users.

01:06:15 ◼   ► When they put the headset on,

01:06:17 ◼   ► the main interface will be nearly identical

01:06:19 ◼   ► to that of an iPhone and iPad,

01:06:20 ◼   ► featuring a home screen of a grid of icons

01:06:23 ◼   ► that can be reorganized.

01:06:24 ◼   ► Users will be able to pin widgets such as the weather,

01:06:27 ◼   ► calendar appointments, email,

01:06:28 ◼   ► on stock market performance among their app icons.

01:06:32 ◼   ► What?

01:06:34 ◼   ► What?

01:06:35 ◼   ► No, I mean, come on.

01:06:36 ◼   ► Right?

01:06:38 ◼   ► That can't be right.

01:06:40 ◼   ► - Well, you know, again,

01:06:41 ◼   ► I just think about my experience with the Quest

01:06:44 ◼   ► and like the Quest, you wake up, you know,

01:06:47 ◼   ► in that virtual world in a, you know,

01:06:49 ◼   ► your cave in the Tropic Islands or in space,

01:06:53 ◼   ► and there's like a dashboard controller in front of you.

01:06:57 ◼   ► And if you tap on one of the things,

01:06:59 ◼   ► like a big app store window shows up.

01:07:01 ◼   ► So it's not that far-fetched

01:07:03 ◼   ► that it would be something like that, which is a-

01:07:06 ◼   ► - It's gotta be that within something else though, right?

01:07:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's my guess is that you'll have a home screen,

01:07:12 ◼   ► like I assume it'll be more like the Quest

01:07:14 ◼   ► where you'll have a home screen floating in space

01:07:19 ◼   ► and you'll be able to put widgets on the home screen

01:07:21 ◼   ► or around, and then you'll have some controls

01:07:25 ◼   ► to take you where you wanna go.

01:07:26 ◼   ► 'cause that's what Meta decided to do

01:07:28 ◼   ► and I think it's a good idea.

01:07:29 ◼   ► I don't think I would wanna put it on

01:07:30 ◼   ► and then be in like floating in an empty space

01:07:32 ◼   ► of just a home screen, right?

01:07:34 ◼   ► Or imagine like the home screen is huge

01:07:36 ◼   ► and you've gotta like fly over it

01:07:39 ◼   ► and find the right icon or whatever.

01:07:41 ◼   ► Like these are silly things,

01:07:42 ◼   ► but I think Meta actually is a pretty good model here,

01:07:45 ◼   ► which is they put you in a virtual space,

01:07:47 ◼   ► but it's a virtual space with a launcher essentially,

01:07:50 ◼   ► you know, and a notification center

01:07:52 ◼   ► and all those things that you would have

01:07:54 ◼   ► in a phone or a tablet.

01:07:55 ◼   ► And instead they're in, you know, they're kind of hovering

01:07:58 ◼   ► in this virtual space that you're standing in.

01:08:00 ◼   ► And that's about right.

01:08:02 ◼   ► - I mean, I really hope, because I just read that

01:08:05 ◼   ► and I was like, if that is all it is, that's wild, right?

01:08:07 ◼   ► That like, you've got to have something that feels like

01:08:11 ◼   ► you're in a different environment.

01:08:13 ◼   ► They're just like, you've got an iPad

01:08:15 ◼   ► projected in front of you.

01:08:16 ◼   ► Like, I feel like that's not enough to truly be

01:08:19 ◼   ► like a wowing kind of aspect.

01:08:22 ◼   ► Imagine like an eight foot high, well, okay, maybe not that,

01:08:27 ◼   ► an 80 inch diagonal iPad floating in front of you

01:08:33 ◼   ► while you're at the beach or on a mountain or something.

01:08:36 ◼   ► That's probably what it is, right?

01:08:38 ◼   ► - Yeah. - It's probably

01:08:39 ◼   ► an interface in a 3D environment.

01:08:42 ◼   ► - Yes. - Right?

01:08:44 ◼   ► - That would be better.

01:08:45 ◼   ► You're not gonna like this part, Jason, all right?

01:08:48 ◼   ► - No, I'm not. - I'm telling you this already.

01:08:50 ◼   ► "Apple made the decision to offload the battery from inside of the headset to an external

01:08:55 ◼   ► pack. It rests in a user's pocket and connects via a cable. The headset can last about two

01:09:02 ◼   ► hours per battery pack in line with rival products. The battery, however, is large,

01:09:08 ◼   ► roughly the size of two iPhone 14 Pro Maxes stacked on top of each other, or about six

01:09:15 ◼   ► inches tall and more than half an inch thick. Now I will say that's not going in anyone's

01:09:20 ◼   ► pocket right like I expect that thing will have a clip on it because let's be realistic here.

01:09:25 ◼   ► Yeah so German does say there are still prototypes of an internal battery but the issue that they

01:09:32 ◼   ► are having is with the powerful M2 chips and all the other stuff they've got inside of the headset

01:09:38 ◼   ► if they have a battery in it it gets too hot to wear that has continued to be a problem

01:09:45 ◼   ► So as he is saying right now that he's expecting,

01:09:49 ◼   ► there will be an external battery

01:09:50 ◼   ► that you will clip to yourself.

01:09:53 ◼   ► - Seems inelegant.

01:09:55 ◼   ► - Yep, but maybe otherwise impossible.

01:09:59 ◼   ► - If this is, and I know this is the million dollar question

01:10:03 ◼   ► for this thing, which is, if this is perceived

01:10:05 ◼   ► as being a tech demonstration and a developer kit,

01:10:09 ◼   ► having a battery that you put in your pocket

01:10:12 ◼   ► is something you could get away with.

01:10:15 ◼   ► if it's, you know, but judged as a consumer product

01:10:18 ◼   ► that's like, we've done all this work to make it cordless

01:10:22 ◼   ► except for the cord that you stick in your back pocket.

01:10:25 ◼   ► Like then we all feel like Alex Cox, right?

01:10:27 ◼   ► We've all got a cable running into a pocket

01:10:31 ◼   ► where there's a battery.

01:10:32 ◼   ► - Pokemon Go related.

01:10:35 ◼   ► My feeling on this one is,

01:10:37 ◼   ► if you look at all the stuff we were mentioning before,

01:10:39 ◼   ► right, about what they're trying to do visually,

01:10:42 ◼   ► they're trying to make things look real,

01:10:44 ◼   ► they're trying to do all this very impressive hand tracking.

01:10:47 ◼   ► All of that takes a lot of processing power.

01:10:49 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:10:50 ◼   ► - If it means that version one

01:10:52 ◼   ► has to have a battery attached to a cable,

01:10:55 ◼   ► I don't think that's going to be important

01:10:57 ◼   ► in the grand vision of the product.

01:10:59 ◼   ► Like that it will demo so well

01:11:02 ◼   ► because it will feel so incredible

01:11:04 ◼   ► that you won't care that you've got this one cable.

01:11:06 ◼   ► That's what I think anyway.

01:11:08 ◼   ► - You can just buy another battery or whatever,

01:11:11 ◼   ► something like that.

01:11:13 ◼   ► "To show off the new headset, Apple is creating a store within a store, an area within its

01:11:21 ◼   ► retail outlets dedicated to demonstrating the product."

01:11:25 ◼   ► So it's like a plexiglass cage or something?

01:11:27 ◼   ► Well, you know what, I have to actually read the, I cut out the full quote, I now need

01:11:35 ◼   ► to sign into Bloomberg, just because it felt so ridiculous to me at the time, but now I'm

01:11:40 ◼   ► here I'm like oh no I should I should read it but this is you know this is

01:11:44 ◼   ► obviously kind of like the Apple watch right like in the idea of bringing

01:11:48 ◼   ► people in right there's not a lot of detail there the company did something

01:11:52 ◼   ► similar when it launched the Apple watch is all it really says the part that I'm

01:11:56 ◼   ► looking for is that something along the lines of the hope will be that people

01:12:00 ◼   ► will come in and buy AirPods. I got it yeah I got it Apple has acknowledged these

01:12:04 ◼   ► challenges internally and it's been trying to set realistic expectations for

01:12:07 ◼   ► the product one benefit of the device the company believes is that it could

01:12:10 ◼   ► spur customers to visit Apple retail stores,

01:12:13 ◼   ► not necessarily to buy the product, but to try it out.

01:12:17 ◼   ► They may then purchase another device,

01:12:19 ◼   ► such as an iPad or AirPods.

01:12:21 ◼   ► - Whose idea is that?

01:12:24 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:12:25 ◼   ► Right, like, oh, I know what we'll do here.

01:12:28 ◼   ► This thing that's cost us this many years in development,

01:12:31 ◼   ► we'll use it to upsell AirPods

01:12:33 ◼   ► for people that are coming in to look at it.

01:12:35 ◼   ► - I imagine, I mean,

01:12:36 ◼   ► and I know this is probably not how it happened,

01:12:38 ◼   ► but I imagine a cynical meeting

01:12:39 ◼   ► where there's somebody like,

01:12:40 ◼   ► are people gonna buy these things?

01:12:41 ◼   ► Nah, but once they're in the store,

01:12:42 ◼   ► they'll buy some other crap.

01:12:44 ◼   ► - You know what this reads to me though, Jason,

01:12:47 ◼   ► actually this reads to me as,

01:12:49 ◼   ► the person in the retail division

01:12:51 ◼   ► who is pitching the idea of the store within a store concept

01:12:54 ◼   ► is using this on a slide as an additional reason

01:12:56 ◼   ► why they should get their budget.

01:12:58 ◼   ► - Right, 'cause somebody else is like,

01:12:59 ◼   ► no, no, let's just send,

01:13:00 ◼   ► we're only gonna sell a million of them,

01:13:01 ◼   ► let's sell it online only.

01:13:03 ◼   ► They're like, no, no, no,

01:13:04 ◼   ► we gotta put it in the store so people see it

01:13:06 ◼   ► and they're blown away by it.

01:13:08 ◼   ► - And they'll buy it.

01:13:09 ◼   ► - And then, but what will they do?

01:13:11 ◼   ► They won't buy it.

01:13:12 ◼   ► So what will they do?

01:13:13 ◼   ► And it's like, I don't know, the bus of maripods.

01:13:15 ◼   ► - Or whatever.

01:13:17 ◼   ► - This would be the thing that pushes, anyway.

01:13:19 ◼   ► But you mentioned that Apple is expecting

01:13:21 ◼   ► to sell 1 million units in year one.

01:13:23 ◼   ► And listen to this, in a rare move,

01:13:27 ◼   ► it is also not planning to make a profit

01:13:30 ◼   ► on the initial version, even at the high price,

01:13:33 ◼   ► indicating that the company is taking a long-term view

01:13:36 ◼   ► on the platform.

01:13:38 ◼   ► is what we've been talking about.

01:13:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, except that that's what's happening

01:13:42 ◼   ► at $3,000 apparently.

01:13:44 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe.

01:13:47 ◼   ► It's if we're tying those two things together,

01:13:48 ◼   ► which I think we can possibly, but nevertheless,

01:13:52 ◼   ► even if, okay, let's say it costs $3,000,

01:13:54 ◼   ► if that's what it costs, it's what it costs

01:13:57 ◼   ► for whatever they're doing.

01:13:59 ◼   ► If I believe that, I mean, we're never gonna know that,

01:14:01 ◼   ► right, but if I believe that they're not planning

01:14:03 ◼   ► to take a profit on it, I can at least stomach the idea

01:14:05 ◼   ► if it's costing three grand more, you know what I mean?

01:14:08 ◼   ► Right, like if it costs three grand,

01:14:09 ◼   ► but it costs three grand because 40% of it

01:14:11 ◼   ► is going into Apple's pocket,

01:14:13 ◼   ► it would annoy me. - Right, it's a different story.

01:14:14 ◼   ► - Because it's just like you're not doing

01:14:16 ◼   ► a good enough job here if you want people to use it.

01:14:19 ◼   ► But if it costs three grand to make the tech

01:14:21 ◼   ► the way that they are planning to make it

01:14:23 ◼   ► because they believe that it's important

01:14:25 ◼   ► and it's a bet that they're making,

01:14:26 ◼   ► I'm more willing to accept that as the cost, so.

01:14:30 ◼   ► - I think the damning number here

01:14:33 ◼   ► is one million units in year one.

01:14:35 ◼   ► Just keeping in mind, that's nothing for Apple,

01:14:37 ◼   ► for an Apple product.

01:14:38 ◼   ► That's nothing.

01:14:39 ◼   ► - It's absolutely nothing.

01:14:40 ◼   ► - This is essentially admitting

01:14:43 ◼   ► that this is an advanced technology preview/developer kit,

01:14:47 ◼   ► and that they are going to, this is not the product, right?

01:14:52 ◼   ► This is the product that, oh, this is the deep thought thing.

01:14:55 ◼   ► I'm the, you know, I am not the ultimate answer.

01:14:58 ◼   ► I'm the thing that proceeds that other thing

01:15:00 ◼   ► that asks the question of the ultimate answer.

01:15:03 ◼   ► Anyway, it's "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."

01:15:04 ◼   ► You get it.

01:15:06 ◼   ► That is what this is.

01:15:08 ◼   ► It's like, I am not the popular headset.

01:15:11 ◼   ► I am the one that precedes it.

01:15:13 ◼   ► And I will usher it into existence.

01:15:15 ◼   ► But now, no, only a million of me will be sold.

01:15:18 ◼   ► But next year, oh, or at a time that we will not announce,

01:15:22 ◼   ► but sometime nearly in the future,

01:15:23 ◼   ► another product may exist that will be popular.

01:15:26 ◼   ► That's, I mean, a million.

01:15:29 ◼   ► Apple has not spent all this money

01:15:31 ◼   ► on selling a million of a headset, right?

01:15:34 ◼   ► Like, and so this seems to me to be an admission,

01:15:39 ◼   ► at least in part, even if they don't market it this way,

01:15:41 ◼   ► at least in part that that's what this is.

01:15:43 ◼   ► It's like a million, you know, it's like, we're not,

01:15:45 ◼   ► what I like about this is it shows some realism,

01:15:47 ◼   ► which is, yeah, we know we're not gonna sell any of these.

01:15:50 ◼   ► Like, that's not the point.

01:15:51 ◼   ► The point is to get it out there and to demonstrate this

01:15:53 ◼   ► and to get people excited for whatever comes next.

01:15:56 ◼   ► And there's gonna be a lot of analysis

01:15:59 ◼   ► that we are going to do about their marketing,

01:16:01 ◼   ► 'cause I owe to be a fly on the wall again,

01:16:04 ◼   ► of how they market this.

01:16:06 ◼   ► And if they dare to talk about the future

01:16:09 ◼   ► when they market this,

01:16:10 ◼   ► because I think they,

01:16:12 ◼   ► and I know I've said this before,

01:16:13 ◼   ► but like, I think that's what they need to do.

01:16:15 ◼   ► I think when you come out with a product

01:16:16 ◼   ► that nobody's gonna buy,

01:16:17 ◼   ► but you want everybody to get excited about,

01:16:19 ◼   ► you gotta get the hype machine going.

01:16:21 ◼   ► You gotta say, look, this is a start.

01:16:24 ◼   ► It's for explorers and developers,

01:16:26 ◼   ► but we're not stopping and there's more to come.

01:16:30 ◼   ► Even if it's just, there's more to come

01:16:31 ◼   ► and there's, you know,

01:16:32 ◼   ► We think that this is gonna be a huge thing in the future

01:16:35 ◼   ► and we are on it and there are gonna be further products

01:16:38 ◼   ► in this product line, but this is where it starts.

01:16:40 ◼   ► I think they need to really lean into that

01:16:42 ◼   ► because you don't want this thing to be interpreted as,

01:16:45 ◼   ► well, here's Apple's entry in VR.

01:16:48 ◼   ► It costs so much money,

01:16:49 ◼   ► they're not gonna sell any of them, so it's a flop.

01:16:51 ◼   ► And they don't want it to be seen as a flop, right?

01:16:53 ◼   ► They want it to be seen as them priming the pump

01:16:55 ◼   ► for what comes next, which is why, even though this,

01:16:59 ◼   ► I think, 1 million thing is probably not,

01:17:01 ◼   ► it's probably not something Apple wanted somebody

01:17:03 ◼   ► to tell Mark Gurman.

01:17:05 ◼   ► I do expect that as we get closer to this thing coming out,

01:17:09 ◼   ► that Apple will probably use whatever tools it has

01:17:13 ◼   ► at its disposal to set expectations, right?

01:17:17 ◼   ► 'Cause you need to manage the expectations of this product.

01:17:20 ◼   ► 'Cause by any other product standards,

01:17:23 ◼   ► not selling a million in year one for Apple

01:17:27 ◼   ► is really not good.

01:17:29 ◼   ► like Apple products, like the Apple watch sold what,

01:17:33 ◼   ► 300 million in year one, I don't know, 30 million?

01:17:37 ◼   ► I don't know how many it was.

01:17:39 ◼   ► It's a lot, a lot more than one, I think is the point.

01:17:43 ◼   ► So that's my question.

01:17:47 ◼   ► Actually, Germin wrote about this this weekend too.

01:17:49 ◼   ► And there, he was talking more about like the risk

01:17:53 ◼   ► of the headset and it was a little more like,

01:17:56 ◼   ► it's not gonna be an iPhone and it's not.

01:17:59 ◼   ► and it's not gonna be an Apple Watch.

01:18:01 ◼   ► And this is all true.

01:18:04 ◼   ► The question is,

01:18:05 ◼   ► how do you get people to view it?

01:18:11 ◼   ► Here, I'll quote from,

01:18:13 ◼   ► "Apple sold a million iPhones

01:18:14 ◼   ► within months of the product's debut.

01:18:16 ◼   ► The iPad topped a million units on its first 28 days."

01:18:20 ◼   ► And that's just the start.

01:18:21 ◼   ► The company sold more than 10 million iPhones

01:18:23 ◼   ► in its second year and 15 million iPads

01:18:25 ◼   ► in the tablet's first eight months.

01:18:27 ◼   ► even the Apple Watch made it to over 10 million

01:18:31 ◼   ► in its first year.

01:18:33 ◼   ► So there you go.

01:18:33 ◼   ► That was a product that was sort of, well, not troubled,

01:18:36 ◼   ► but like sluggish and a new product in a new category.

01:18:39 ◼   ► And it scored 10 million sales.

01:18:42 ◼   ► And they're talking about a 10th of that for this.

01:18:45 ◼   ► So I'm not saying that this product

01:18:47 ◼   ► it's fundamentally bad or anything like that.

01:18:49 ◼   ► I'm saying they need to manage expectations

01:18:52 ◼   ► because clearly they now are aware, right?

01:18:56 ◼   ► Like this is not gonna be the product

01:18:58 ◼   ► that sets the world on fire because it's so expensive,

01:19:01 ◼   ► but that they're laying the groundwork

01:19:03 ◼   ► for the future of this platform.

01:19:05 ◼   ► And that's fine, just, you know,

01:19:07 ◼   ► they're gonna take their lumps

01:19:08 ◼   ► unless they're very clear about that.

01:19:11 ◼   ► - The latter part of this report

01:19:13 ◼   ► has actually made me feel a bit more personally,

01:19:15 ◼   ► more positive about the endeavor,

01:19:18 ◼   ► that they are facing up to what the task is ahead

01:19:23 ◼   ► and what this part of it will be, right?

01:19:25 ◼   ► that we know it's expensive, so to make it as least expensive as possible, we'll just

01:19:33 ◼   ► sell it for what it costs.

01:19:35 ◼   ► We know we're not going to sell a lot of these and that's totally fine because the people

01:19:38 ◼   ► that this is going to, there are early adopters, there are developers, there are evangelists,

01:19:41 ◼   ► people who are going to get it and use it and try and understand it and have maybe a

01:19:46 ◼   ► higher threshold for understanding it and dealing with what will be some weirdness in

01:19:51 ◼   ► places.

01:19:52 ◼   ► the idea of setting up this thing in the store,

01:19:55 ◼   ► they just want people to see it,

01:19:55 ◼   ► they want people to be aware of what's coming.

01:19:58 ◼   ► And I feel like the thing that you've been hoping for

01:20:01 ◼   ► seems more likely that they would stand on stage

01:20:04 ◼   ► and be like, this is the beginning of a 10 year plan

01:20:08 ◼   ► that we have that everyone will have one of these.

01:20:12 ◼   ► And whether that happens or not isn't the point,

01:20:14 ◼   ► but if they are upfront about that,

01:20:17 ◼   ► everything else will make more sense,

01:20:19 ◼   ► everything else will be more palatable,

01:20:22 ◼   ► but it's if they do it.

01:20:23 ◼   ► However, this report kind of makes it feel

01:20:26 ◼   ► like they have got their feet on the ground a little bit

01:20:29 ◼   ► about what it's gonna take to make this thing

01:20:32 ◼   ► the way that they want.

01:20:33 ◼   ► And that's even stuff like the battery pack.

01:20:35 ◼   ► They're being realistic, right?

01:20:37 ◼   ► About what it is they're able to make

01:20:39 ◼   ► and it be a good experience.

01:20:42 ◼   ► And so, yeah, this report,

01:20:44 ◼   ► I know a lot of people are taking this report

01:20:46 ◼   ► in a lot of different directions.

01:20:48 ◼   ► John Gruber wrote a great piece about it,

01:20:50 ◼   ► where he's kind of trying to break it down

01:20:52 ◼   ► and understand what is this product even and is struggling.

01:20:56 ◼   ► And I mean, we're all struggling with that,

01:20:58 ◼   ► but this article for me was very good at explaining

01:21:03 ◼   ► maybe what Apple thinks this thing is gonna be.

01:21:10 ◼   ► Actually, I think John Cooper is writing

01:21:11 ◼   ► about a different article,

01:21:12 ◼   ► but it's touching on the same kind of things

01:21:15 ◼   ► of like, what will we use it for?

01:21:16 ◼   ► And it's like, it's hard to really know with this stuff.

01:21:21 ◼   ► I think we're going to need to see it.

01:21:22 ◼   ► However, this has made me feel more enthused to see it

01:21:27 ◼   ► than I have been previously.

01:21:29 ◼   ► So we'll see.

01:21:30 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:21:31 ◼   ► If you enjoy this show and want more of it,

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01:21:44 ◼   ► Today, we're going to be talking about some of Jason's

01:21:48 ◼   ► experiences and impressions of using the Google Nest hub

01:21:52 ◼   ► instead of his Echo Show.

01:21:54 ◼   ► And we're also going to decide and set our next challenge

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01:22:00 ◼   ► as the Upgrade Plus challenge.

01:22:02 ◼   ► So we've had some recommendations from Upgradients,

01:22:05 ◼   ► and we're going to pick one and then maybe do it

01:22:07 ◼   ► in the next episode or in the next couple of weeks.

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01:22:39 ◼   ► thank you if you decide to sign up. I have some ask upgrade questions for you Jason to

01:22:45 ◼   ► finish out today's episode. Peter asks, "The discussion of chip binning makes me wonder

01:22:52 ◼   ► if Apple might control the number of active cores in the future with a software license.

01:22:57 ◼   ► Could that be a way to provide an upgrade path for entry level Mac Pros where you pay

01:23:02 ◼   ► at some later time to unlock more cores or RAM?" Now bear with me here a second because

01:23:07 ◼   ► I've had this random thought right of like, at a certain point might they just ship the

01:23:12 ◼   ► the same chip in every machine and you just pay like an in-app purchase to get more cores

01:23:17 ◼   ► available to you? It seems weird but not impossible?

01:23:21 ◼   ► Well, the RAM has costs, right? So I think that it's not likely. The binning happens,

01:23:28 ◼   ► right? Because these chips aren't all up to spec and so they can sell a version with the

01:23:33 ◼   ► GPU cores disabled that are ones where not all the GPU cores worked. So it would require

01:23:41 ◼   ► to have a level of confidence about what they,

01:23:44 ◼   ► what they were generating.

01:23:46 ◼   ► I mean, yeah, again, I think that variation is basically

01:23:49 ◼   ► because it's part of the chip production process.

01:23:52 ◼   ► But sure, if there was a case where Apple could make

01:23:56 ◼   ► a perfect chip that had all the cores working,

01:23:59 ◼   ► all the GPU cores, would they consider making

01:24:03 ◼   ► an in-app purchase for more cores being activated

01:24:05 ◼   ► after the fact?

01:24:06 ◼   ► I suppose they would.

01:24:08 ◼   ► That would be another gate.

01:24:10 ◼   ► People get very angry when you build features

01:24:12 ◼   ► into a product, hardware features,

01:24:15 ◼   ► and then you don't enable them unless you pay more money,

01:24:18 ◼   ► because it's like there is this implicit promise

01:24:20 ◼   ► that you're paying for the hardware that you've got,

01:24:23 ◼   ► and not having it be sort of a completely arbitrary thing.

01:24:27 ◼   ► But it's a funny thing to think about.

01:24:30 ◼   ► But I think the truth is that this has more to do

01:24:33 ◼   ► with the production of chips,

01:24:35 ◼   ► not being able to generate chips

01:24:37 ◼   ► with every GPU core lit up than anything else.

01:24:42 ◼   ► -Cliff wrote in and said, "In episode 442,

01:24:45 ◼   ► Myke mentioned if he was the CEO of Twitter,

01:24:47 ◼   ► he would remove third-party API access,

01:24:50 ◼   ► since the business model of Twitter is based on advertising

01:24:52 ◼   ► and the necessary analytics can't be provided to advertisers

01:24:55 ◼   ► from the users with third-party clients.

01:24:58 ◼   ► Some time ago, Myke also said, as an owner of a podcast network,

01:25:01 ◼   ► he was opposed to services like Spotify

01:25:04 ◼   ► controlling the podcast behind their paywall

01:25:07 ◼   ► and collecting valuable user data

01:25:08 ◼   ► to help to sell to advertisers.

01:25:10 ◼   ► Is this a contradiction?

01:25:12 ◼   ► I included this question to highlight a point of like,

01:25:16 ◼   ► I am capable of holding more than one point of view

01:25:19 ◼   ► at a time, where like, what I was saying was,

01:25:22 ◼   ► if I was the CEO of Twitter, but I am not,

01:25:25 ◼   ► and will never be CEO of Twitter,

01:25:27 ◼   ► I am the owner of a podcast network.

01:25:29 ◼   ► - Of a podcast network, yeah, exactly.

01:25:31 ◼   ► - So, what I'm, if I was given the task of running Twitter,

01:25:35 ◼   ► I would cut off third party apps differently

01:25:38 ◼   ► to how Elon did, but I would cut off third party apps

01:25:41 ◼   ► because I am now running that business

01:25:44 ◼   ► and need to make that business the best that it can be

01:25:47 ◼   ► and that's what you gotta do.

01:25:49 ◼   ► - If you had the time, you might see if you could make it

01:25:52 ◼   ► so that the third party apps could remain

01:25:54 ◼   ► if they showed your ads, right?

01:25:56 ◼   ► But I think we all realize that at this point,

01:25:58 ◼   ► Twitter's not capable of something like that.

01:26:00 ◼   ► And so the answer would be, you just gotta shut them down

01:26:03 ◼   ► if you're a CEO of Twitter.

01:26:04 ◼   ► - As I said before, social networks,

01:26:06 ◼   ► no other social network has an API like this.

01:26:09 ◼   ► You wanna control your platform, it's your platform.

01:26:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's yours.

01:26:13 ◼   ► - Similar to I wanna control my platform, it's mine,

01:26:15 ◼   ► which is this podcast network.

01:26:17 ◼   ► And the idea of Spotify buying up shows

01:26:22 ◼   ► and putting them behind their paywall and hiding them,

01:26:26 ◼   ► which funnily enough, there was a report in Bloomberg

01:26:28 ◼   ► this week that Jason sent me,

01:26:29 ◼   ► hasn't done great for Spotify, ultimately.

01:26:32 ◼   ► - No, no, it's actually been kind of a disaster

01:26:35 ◼   ► and they're retrenching and they're changing their approach

01:26:38 ◼   ► and they've lost a lot of money on it

01:26:39 ◼   ► and it hasn't really worked and it's fascinating.

01:26:44 ◼   ► Although one of the things that is mentioned

01:26:46 ◼   ► sort of semi-threateningly in there

01:26:49 ◼   ► is about the fact that Spotify,

01:26:52 ◼   ► if you're listening to a podcast through Spotify's player,

01:26:56 ◼   ► it's not like Spotify gets to insert the ads, right?

01:26:59 ◼   ► like the ads are inserted by whoever is serving the podcast.

01:27:04 ◼   ► And the suggestion there is like, well,

01:27:07 ◼   ► but Spotify wants to get in there.

01:27:08 ◼   ► They want to be like Netflix or YouTube

01:27:10 ◼   ► and be the ones inserting the ads.

01:27:12 ◼   ► I think, and I'm curious what you think about this.

01:27:14 ◼   ► I think that Spotify will end up doing that,

01:27:16 ◼   ► but not in the way that is threatened in that article.

01:27:19 ◼   ► I think the answer is Spotify wants to be a major player

01:27:22 ◼   ► in podcast ad serving, which they already are.

01:27:25 ◼   ► And that'll be inside and outside of Spotify.

01:27:28 ◼   ► They wanna, you know, and they'll make money that way,

01:27:32 ◼   ► potentially, possibly.

01:27:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe. - But I think it's less

01:27:35 ◼   ► likely that they're going to say,

01:27:37 ◼   ► "Oh, if you wanna be a podcast inside Spotify,

01:27:39 ◼   ► "we're gonna insert some ads in your podcast

01:27:41 ◼   ► "that came from outside of Spotify

01:27:44 ◼   ► "without your approval," or whatever.

01:27:46 ◼   ► Like, that seems like a weird place for them to go down.

01:27:49 ◼   ► But certainly, Myke, if you were CEO of Spotify,

01:27:53 ◼   ► you would have a very different opinion

01:27:54 ◼   ► about what Spotify should do

01:27:56 ◼   ► than if you're running Relay FM, which is your role.

01:28:00 ◼   ► - Yep, so it's only a contradiction

01:28:02 ◼   ► if I do actually run both of those companies.

01:28:06 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:28:07 ◼   ► Which I don't.

01:28:08 ◼   ► The Spotify ads thing is interesting to me

01:28:10 ◼   ► because a lot of people try and say,

01:28:11 ◼   ► "I wanna be like YouTube."

01:28:12 ◼   ► It's like, well, but yeah, but the thing is,

01:28:16 ◼   ► YouTube started their industry.

01:28:19 ◼   ► The podcast industry existed a long time before Spotify

01:28:23 ◼   ► and people got used to the way that things are done.

01:28:25 ◼   ► Like if Spotify came to us and said, "Hey, we want to sell your ads."

01:28:29 ◼   ► I can tell you it's a worse deal for me. I know it is.

01:28:32 ◼   ► So why would I do it?

01:28:33 ◼   ► They may be able to do something kind of akin to what YouTube does of

01:28:38 ◼   ► inserting ads before the beginning or like randomly in a show.

01:28:42 ◼   ► But then I don't think listeners would necessarily stick with Spotify

01:28:46 ◼   ► because it's the podcast app that has all the ads in it.

01:28:49 ◼   ► Like, honestly, I think the time for that is over.

01:28:53 ◼   ► what they are more likely to do,

01:28:55 ◼   ► you were just saying, which is like,

01:28:56 ◼   ► they could just become one of the larger

01:28:59 ◼   ► podcast advertising agencies who offer

01:29:04 ◼   ► companies to other podcasters

01:29:06 ◼   ► at whatever rates they wanna pay.

01:29:08 ◼   ► Which they could do if they want to,

01:29:09 ◼   ► but I also don't think that's Spotify's business.

01:29:11 ◼   ► - They have their own dynamic ad insertion system

01:29:13 ◼   ► that they would put together and it would work in Spotify,

01:29:15 ◼   ► but it would also work outside of Spotify,

01:29:17 ◼   ► and it would be, you know, maybe there are different rates

01:29:19 ◼   ► for the insertions that are happening in Spotify,

01:29:21 ◼   ► where they have more data.

01:29:22 ◼   ► Like I could see them doing that,

01:29:24 ◼   ► but the Bloomberg report was interesting

01:29:26 ◼   ► because it was basically saying that this is not,

01:29:29 ◼   ► this was an interesting pivot on their part,

01:29:31 ◼   ► but it really hasn't worked out.

01:29:32 ◼   ► That podcasts are not gonna be the thing that saves Spotify.

01:29:36 ◼   ► And the challenge with Spotify is the challenge

01:29:38 ◼   ► with any streaming music service,

01:29:39 ◼   ► which is they spend so much money

01:29:43 ◼   ► back to the music licensing that, you know,

01:29:46 ◼   ► there's not a lot of profit or any profit

01:29:49 ◼   ► that can be rung out of it,

01:29:51 ◼   ► which is that's, yeah,

01:29:54 ◼   ► something's gonna have to give there,

01:29:55 ◼   ► but the podcast strategy seems to have been

01:29:58 ◼   ► not the right one.

01:29:59 ◼   ► And I think podcasts will remain a part of their strategy,

01:30:02 ◼   ► but they're gonna rethink it.

01:30:04 ◼   ► - It's not the thing that's gonna make them

01:30:06 ◼   ► a largely profitable company.

01:30:08 ◼   ► - Producing original Spotify podcasts

01:30:10 ◼   ► is probably not gonna be their thing.

01:30:11 ◼   ► And in fact, I would go so further into say

01:30:13 ◼   ► those Spotify exclusive podcasts

01:30:15 ◼   ► also are probably in the long run not gonna be a thing

01:30:18 ◼   ► 'cause they're probably not worth it for them.

01:30:19 ◼   ► they're probably better off having podcasts playing

01:30:22 ◼   ► be in their app.

01:30:23 ◼   ► And like we said, maybe make money by being a podcast,

01:30:28 ◼   ► ad network of some kind or platform of some kind.

01:30:33 ◼   ► But paying a lot of money to paywall

01:30:36 ◼   ► or Spotify exclusivize certain podcasts

01:30:40 ◼   ► may not actually make a lot of sense for them

01:30:42 ◼   ► 'cause the money they're spending

01:30:43 ◼   ► is more than the benefit they're getting.

01:30:46 ◼   ► - Tyler asks, "For those of us that are now new to RSS,

01:30:49 ◼   ► What RSS readers do you recommend?

01:30:51 ◼   ► - Net News Wire is where I would start because it's free