428: Timery (Taylor's Version)


00:00:00   Hello there. What you're getting ready to hear was supposed to be the members section

00:00:05   of the show this week, but we were really happy with the conversation, so we decided

00:00:10   to put it in the main public episode as well. Thanks. So Myke, you are now #NoTwitter. How's

00:00:18   that going? What led to this? I mean, what's my--

00:00:22   I mean, do you need to ask?

00:00:25   Let me rephrase that. There have been a few things going on with Twitter.

00:00:29   you... what was the final straw? I've been wanting to leave Twitter for like three

00:00:37   years but just haven't been able to do it, right? Because it's kind of like, "Oh, am I

00:00:43   missing too much? Will I be able to do it? Or my friends will still..." whatever, you know, like

00:00:50   those kinds of things. But it's just like ultimately hasn't been a net positive in

00:00:55   my life for a long time. It's just there are good things about it but there is a

00:01:00   combination of like lots of people being angry all the time about everything

00:01:05   including things that I do care about and things like I really don't care

00:01:09   about but now I've taken on the anger you know and also like can be a pretty

00:01:14   negative place at times I don't really feel like I can contribute to Twitter

00:01:18   the way that I used to you know like you guys go through this. Federico I think

00:01:23   embraces it but it's like any tweet that I send like yeah that could be the rest

00:01:29   of my day oh yeah and so like and it's literally anything right like anything

00:01:35   of any kind of value to anyone well it would just take over my day and like but

00:01:40   you know you can I think like for you too it makes more sense than it does for

00:01:46   me right so like one of the things that led to me doing this it was Casey

00:01:50   Newton's awesome essay in platformer yeah where he was talking about why he

00:01:55   is is kind of like stepping back from Twitter except for just like publishing

00:02:00   links and one of the things he said which I definitely works for you too I

00:02:05   think Federico you do this more is like I can post funny things or interesting

00:02:10   observations on Twitter it grows my audience and then I can share the links

00:02:14   to my articles and then people read them right that's just not a thing for me

00:02:19   Like, I don't believe at this point in my career, like, me posting like, "Hey, check

00:02:25   out this podcast!"

00:02:26   And like, it's just like enough people are gonna go listen to it.

00:02:28   Like, I just don't really think that happens for me anymore.

00:02:32   They're like, "Yeah, we got it.

00:02:33   Yeah, we got it, Myke.

00:02:34   You host some podcasts."

00:02:36   Exactly.

00:02:37   But the way you said it is funny.

00:02:40   I mean, you can, but you can share those links.

00:02:43   can post like a link to an article with a screenshot that has an excerpt right?

00:02:49   Yes, yes.

00:02:50   I wish I could post an excerpt but like I don't really think at this point that I can

00:02:55   have much of a meaningful impact on my work by posting tweets anymore right?

00:03:01   So all that kind of stuff has been going on with me for years plus it just like not really

00:03:06   being a fun place in a bunch of ways and now it's kind of like a combination of a lot of

00:03:12   people that I like to follow are leaving Twitter, a lot of people whose opinions I respect are

00:03:19   leaving Twitter, and it just keeps bubbling around in my brain. And the service is just

00:03:25   going in ways that just doesn't make sense to me, or it's just really annoying to me,

00:03:32   or just fundamentally opposed to what I fundamentally believe in, right? And so I'm just like, whatever.

00:03:39   Like for me it's not the Elon thing specifically.

00:03:44   I understand that people are leaving Twitter because of what he's saying.

00:03:47   I think a lot of the things he's saying is just stuff that he's saying to get people

00:03:53   to tweet at him.

00:03:54   I don't care what he believes, really.

00:03:56   It doesn't make a difference to me if he's a Republican or if he's a Democrat.

00:04:02   I don't care about that because people could be that stuff secretly and what difference

00:04:06   doesn't make, but it's the actions that they portray that bother me most and I

00:04:11   think his actions it's really bad and so I just you know that is like but it's

00:04:16   not the reason it's just a reason like all of these things together built up to

00:04:22   me wanting to leave like I don't really feel like I get as much out of it as I

00:04:25   used to I don't really feel like it's much of a benefit to me professionally

00:04:28   anymore plus the service is going in a bunch of terrible ways and the owner of

00:04:32   of the company I don't think is doing a very good job and isn't really somebody who I want

00:04:40   to support by, you know, like so like one of the things that annoys me right like and

00:04:45   look this is just me obviously if you're not in my situation maybe this isn't gonna annoy

00:04:49   you whatever right we are all people who are verified on Twitter right for whatever reasons

00:04:54   we were verified we were verified. Notable or not. Notable or not and like people like

00:05:02   to follow us on Twitter we will have pretty large followings right so like in

00:05:05   theory we are good for Twitter right because people want to follow us so they

00:05:10   go to Twitter to see what people have to say we're verified because and I think

00:05:15   that's important in a way to be like I am actually this person which is me

00:05:19   right and that's the same for you guys right we all have online businesses I

00:05:24   think it's important that if we're on a service like this and we're contributing

00:05:28   to it there is an importance in being like yes we're verified and I think that

00:05:31   That is a system that should be available to everyone

00:05:34   that you can actually verify yourself and whatever.

00:05:38   But the new verification system isn't that, right?

00:05:41   It's just like, give us some money and have a phone number.

00:05:44   They're gonna get rid of our verification

00:05:45   and he wants us to give him money to get it back.

00:05:48   And I'm not gonna do that.

00:05:50   I'm not doing that.

00:05:51   Because that's not the deal here, right?

00:05:54   Like you're not gonna extort me.

00:05:56   And so again, I have like a ton of reasons,

00:05:59   But ultimately, like, I don't really like Twitter,

00:06:03   and I was kind of just addicted to it.

00:06:05   So, it's time to get rid of it.

00:06:07   So, I'm gone, I'm done.

00:06:08   I've signed out everywhere, I'm done.

00:06:10   - Yeah, might as well be the time for me to share

00:06:13   that I think I'm doing the same.

00:06:16   Like I-

00:06:17   - Hell yeah, join the club, baby.

00:06:18   Come on, let's do it.

00:06:19   - But unlike you, I am going to use Mastodon,

00:06:24   which I think is not something you're interested in.

00:06:27   And I think it goes back to what you were saying.

00:06:29   I think it's really beneficial to the type of work that I do, you know, making text.

00:06:34   And I think text lends itself very well to screenshots, just sharing that.

00:06:38   So you're not even going to have like a bot if you do this?

00:06:40   Like, you know, like a bot that just posts to your account on Twitter?

00:06:44   See, the thing for me is, I really don't feel like I want to contribute anything,

00:06:51   not even my links to a platform, a service owned by someone who sympathizes with Nazis.

00:07:00   I really don't want to see this is where I'm at right now. I've been thinking about this

00:07:03   for the past few days. I haven't tweeted for the past few days. I've been talking about

00:07:08   it with John because it's obviously like also a decision that affects our business. And

00:07:12   we are working on some other things that should be done soon. But the thing is, I don't really

00:07:18   want to contribute content for free to this platform anymore. I am sorry if people who

00:07:24   disagree with me and are still using Twitter will be missing my tweets and my links and

00:07:29   my stuff. I'll be on other places. I have a site, I have a Mastodon account, I guess

00:07:35   I'll use Instagram more. There's ways, and we have Discord, right? There's ways for people

00:07:40   to get in touch with me and to follow me. But the thing is, I think it's gross to contribute

00:07:44   content to Twitter at the moment. And I think if anything, it's becoming a liability. At

00:07:51   least for me, you know, I don't want to take, I don't want to give him any more of my content,

00:07:57   any more of my typing characters in a text box every day. It's gross. And the tipping

00:08:04   point for me was like reinstating a bunch of accounts that I had no reason to be given

00:08:10   a platform on the modern web for common decency reasons.

00:08:18   Like I saw Kara Swisher saying about this, which is like she kind of turned my thinking

00:08:21   on it, of like, it's like he believes what he believes, whatever it is, we actually don't

00:08:26   know. But what he's going for is like Fox News. He's trying to turn to Twitter, Fox

00:08:30   News. He wants all these people on the platform to do this stuff, to rile everyone up all

00:08:35   the time because it's engagement. And like this is the thing that I've felt like Twitter,

00:08:40   algorithm has been doing for years, right, which is like, whether purposefully or not,

00:08:45   the more angry people are, the better it is for the service. And he knows this, and is

00:08:50   now trying to manufacture it as well. And it's like, this is the exact opposite of what

00:08:55   I want to be a part of.

00:08:57   Yeah, I don't want to be part of that. If anything, in modern years, you know me, we've

00:09:02   been talking about this. I've always have been and always will be a fan of the open

00:09:07   and web, there are elements of Mastodon that appeal to me, more so about the underlying

00:09:13   tech that the Mastodon service itself and the underlying tech activity pub and all that

00:09:18   kind of stuff, web push for notifications, like all of that are technologies that we

00:09:23   are looking into for the future of Mac stories. But really, I don't want to be part of that

00:09:28   platform anymore. And to all the people who are going to say, so what, you hate free speech?

00:09:33   Which is a silly question, but you know, let's play that argument out.

00:09:36   - You know what I mean?

00:09:37   If that's what it takes.

00:09:38   - You know, you see what the problem is.

00:09:40   Those people, they think that free speech

00:09:42   is like a one way street.

00:09:45   And the thing is free speech cuts both ways,

00:09:47   because yes, you are free and entitled to your opinions,

00:09:50   even though they are, you know,

00:09:52   there's a fine difference between an opinion

00:09:54   and something stupid that you can be, you know,

00:09:57   prosecuted for, but that's a different conversation.

00:10:00   You are entitled to share those things

00:10:02   because of free speech.

00:10:03   I am a free speech person.

00:10:05   free speech, I am entitled to not listen to you, and that's free speech. Freedom of speech is not

00:10:11   freedom of consequences. Yes. If you say something or do something or enact a policy if you're

00:10:18   if you're running a social network that has consequences, like that's those are two different

00:10:22   things. So anyways, I don't want to get like too like freshman college dorm room philosophical

00:10:28   about that, but I do want to talk a little bit about sort of the logistics of it. So what I've

00:10:34   What I'm doing right now, I pulled the plug about three weeks ago, is I'm still signed

00:10:40   in to-- You did this so long ago I'd forgotten.

00:10:42   Oh yeah, that guy.

00:10:45   I am still signed in to Tweetbot with my show accounts and the network account so I can

00:10:51   check our mentions.

00:10:52   I think I will continue to do that for a while because our audience is still there, at least

00:10:57   some of them are.

00:10:59   Although I opened Tweetbot on my laptop, actually last night for preparation of the show.

00:11:04   The night before the show, I go through our mentions

00:11:06   and see if there's any follow-up or feedback I wanna grab.

00:11:08   And that was still assigned into my personal account.

00:11:11   It's the first time I've seen my timeline in a while,

00:11:14   and I was shocked at how quiet it was.

00:11:16   There were big gaps in time that used to never be there.

00:11:19   I don't even follow that many people.

00:11:21   It's about 500 people compared to some

00:11:24   who follow thousands.

00:11:25   And it was sort of surprising to see how quiet it was.

00:11:30   But I'm curious, you guys leaving,

00:11:33   it is still partially like a business thing.

00:11:36   I mean, Federico, you said you may not even

00:11:38   put your links there anymore.

00:11:39   Like what are y'all's plans?

00:11:41   And I reserve the right, obviously,

00:11:43   we all do that this could change,

00:11:45   but how are you thinking about that right now

00:11:47   in terms of balancing personal use

00:11:49   and like what the shows need?

00:11:51   - I think for now,

00:11:53   I'm pulling the plug on everything on my account.

00:11:56   And I think we're still deciding what we wanna do

00:11:59   in terms of the bot that automatically pushes

00:12:02   our new posts from MacStories.net to the Twitter account for MacStories.

00:12:10   We're still deciding what to do there, but otherwise we are going all in on Mastodon

00:12:14   for now, and we're setting up a few things to...

00:12:18   You know me, I like to control my stuff, and it's not ready yet, but you'll see.

00:12:23   But yes, we are going all in on that.

00:12:25   In the meantime, just because I fundamentally believe in the format, I think it's useful

00:12:29   for us to have this type of platform, right,

00:12:33   where you can post status updates and people can reply

00:12:37   and can bookmark them and can click links.

00:12:39   I think it's useful for us.

00:12:41   And otherwise, nothing else really.

00:12:45   We're gonna use, we have RSS, we have Discord,

00:12:47   we're gonna use Mastodon.

00:12:49   We're getting great engagement there.

00:12:50   Like this is why I started this experiment a few weeks back

00:12:53   and I have noticed, especially in the past couple of weeks,

00:12:57   that I'm getting a lot more just conversations going

00:13:00   and interactions on Mastodon than on Twitter.

00:13:03   And that's because our community, I think,

00:13:05   has progressively moved from Twitter

00:13:07   to other instances on Mastodon.

00:13:10   I don't know if it's necessarily the future.

00:13:14   Maybe for what we do,

00:13:15   definitely not for the public at large.

00:13:18   I think we're gonna get a,

00:13:21   it's gonna be weird for a couple of years

00:13:23   in terms of like what's the next Twitter,

00:13:26   Assuming that things continue to evolve down this path for Twitter, it's too soon to tell

00:13:33   at the moment.

00:13:34   Like, will we ever come back to Twitter if, say, Twitter changes hands?

00:13:38   Let's say that Automattic acquires Twitter because Elon gets bored and he's like, "Well,

00:13:42   I don't know.

00:13:43   I want to sell it now."

00:13:44   And a really reputable company acquires Twitter and is committed to making Twitter healthy

00:13:50   again.

00:13:51   I don't know what can happen.

00:13:53   I cannot make predictions, which is why I'm not deleting my account.

00:13:57   But yeah, in the meantime, you will not find us there.

00:14:01   And if you want to find us someplace else, subscribe to RSS or find us on Mastodon.

00:14:06   That's the strategy.

00:14:09   I would prefer to just not look at all.

00:14:12   I'm going to, for the time being, check some stuff, maybe for, like you say,

00:14:17   a check show accounts or whatever.

00:14:19   But it's easy to get sucked in.

00:14:21   I, we're hopefully, we're trying also to work on something to collect short follow-up in a new way

00:14:29   and I think maybe the only account that I will post anything from is the Cortex account like when

00:14:34   there's new episodes. I don't know if I might just set up a bot to do that. I'm gonna, all my show

00:14:40   accounts that have like bots that post them and just gonna keep those going. I think Jason will

00:14:45   probably keep tweeting from the upgrade account because he's been doing that now since he took

00:14:49   took over the posting of the show.

00:14:52   So, I don't have a big plan there.

00:14:56   To be honest, I hadn't even really thought about

00:14:58   checking for follow-up on Twitter.

00:15:00   I guess I probably might wanna do that.

00:15:03   To be honest, we get a lot of it in the Discord now,

00:15:05   which is great, and we're working on ways

00:15:07   to try and make more free and open, easy ways

00:15:11   to send us short stuff.

00:15:13   'Cause what I don't want is 100 emails a week now

00:15:16   from a follow-up.

00:15:18   I don't want that.

00:15:18   That'd be a much, that'd be a terrible impact on my life.

00:15:23   - Yeah, yeah, we're looking at some ways on the website

00:15:25   to make basically private comments on,

00:15:28   that you can tie to an episode.

00:15:30   So you hit a button, fill out a little form, we get it,

00:15:32   and then can deal with it as regular feedback.

00:15:35   So for me, like my shows, "5/12," "Relay,"

00:15:40   they're all still basically auto-tweeting.

00:15:42   I also set up "Relay" and "5/12" on Mastodon

00:15:46   through Zapier, there's not a lot of great integrations

00:15:49   into Macedon currently.

00:15:51   You can use webhooks, so I just wrote a little thing,

00:15:53   like look at the RSS feed

00:15:54   and then post the title and the link.

00:15:56   I've got a personal Macedon account

00:15:59   and I've poked at it a couple of times

00:16:01   and I don't think I'm gonna be using it very much.

00:16:05   I could see it using for like

00:16:07   a couple of big announcements a year,

00:16:08   like, hey, I have a Kickstarter

00:16:10   or the St. Jude fundraiser is starting,

00:16:13   but in terms of day to day,

00:16:15   Like the only things I'm signed into in the ivory beta are 512 and relay again

00:16:20   Just so I can check the mentions and see if you know

00:16:23   We have a typo or there's some sort of problem or or that sort of thing. I do not plan on bringing my shows

00:16:29   Over to have like individual Mastodon accounts. I think that day is this not not going that only that's gonna happen

00:16:36   I don't think it makes much sense. But

00:16:38   my overall feeling is that

00:16:42   my days on like social media are basically over like I've

00:16:46   Done this with Twitter. I still have my account for the same reason Federico does like I'm not gonna close it down

00:16:51   But it's just gonna be there

00:16:54   I deleted all the tweets and just have two tweets explaining that why I'm not there, you know that I'm not there anymore and then

00:16:59   that's that's about it and

00:17:02   The last few weeks without it have been both a lot harder than I expected

00:17:07   But also a lot better

00:17:10   I don't, the first couple of days were really weird.

00:17:13   I, like a lot of people, use Twitter

00:17:15   to fill in the little gaps, you know, in my days.

00:17:20   And without it, it feels a bit weird,

00:17:22   but now a few weeks into it,

00:17:23   I'm really at a point where I honestly don't miss it.

00:17:27   - Yeah, yeah.

00:17:28   I think we are, I think in conclusion,

00:17:30   we can say that we are fortunate enough

00:17:33   to be able to say that if you are part of the audience,

00:17:36   you can find us where we work.

00:17:40   Like the work is where you can find us.

00:17:43   - I was pretty proud of my tweet, by the way.

00:17:45   The main reason I did it yesterday is I had like the tweet,

00:17:48   they end up the tweet with me,

00:17:49   like just saying like, I'm gone now is,

00:17:51   you can find me wherever you find your podcasts, like,

00:17:54   which is that line that's used forever.

00:17:55   And that's true, but like that is part of it for me, right?

00:17:58   - Yeah.

00:17:59   - 'Cause I noticed this for a long time.

00:18:00   If I say, hey, I've got this thing,

00:18:02   come check it out and put it on Twitter

00:18:04   and I get a response, you know,

00:18:05   but if I talk about it on a show, it's much larger,

00:18:08   because this is where my audience is.

00:18:10   They listen to my shows.

00:18:12   So why do I, I don't wanna keep wasting my time anymore

00:18:17   on something that I don't enjoy,

00:18:20   and that I don't even think I can give people

00:18:23   a benefit for anymore.

00:18:25   There isn't any benefit to following me on Twitter.

00:18:26   You don't get anything from me.

00:18:29   So just listen to my shows instead,

00:18:31   and that's the best you're gonna get.

00:18:33   - Yeah, and we're way past the point

00:18:35   in sort of our collective careers,

00:18:37   because I mean, our careers are all

00:18:40   intimately linked with each other.

00:18:41   We're at a point now where like those early relationships,

00:18:45   like those early things that honestly we've benefited

00:18:49   from being kind of the right time at the right place,

00:18:51   like that's completely gone from Twitter.

00:18:54   And it's actually been gone for a long time,

00:18:56   but now it's very evident and visible that it's gone.

00:19:01   I think I'll just speak for me.

00:19:03   I think I've been in denial about this day of Twitter,

00:19:05   probably for years, probably since 2016 or so.

00:19:09   And it's been just the avalanche of disasters

00:19:14   that have struck it since Elon bought it

00:19:18   that sort of sealed it for me.

00:19:19   But I think if I was really honest,

00:19:22   this has been something that I've needed to do

00:19:24   for a long time.

00:19:26   And I get it, like, it's not,

00:19:29   everyone's different on this, right?

00:19:30   Like we talked about it on an MPU that comes out on Sunday,

00:19:33   And like, we all have different emotions

00:19:35   about these websites and that's fine.

00:19:38   Like if you're, if you wanna stay,

00:19:40   like I'm not here to pass judgment on you,

00:19:42   hopefully you're not passing judgment on us for leaving.

00:19:44   Like I know for a lot of people,

00:19:46   Twitter is to them what it used to be to us.

00:19:50   Like it's a place to have your work discovered

00:19:52   and hear diverse voices and have your voice be heard.

00:19:56   Like I get all that and all that stuff is good and important

00:19:59   but just for where I think we are as individuals,

00:20:02   it doesn't make sense anymore.

00:20:03   And I would just hope for some like grace and all of that

00:20:06   is 'cause we all have to figure this out

00:20:08   because it's been a big part of our lives

00:20:10   all for a long time.

00:20:11   - I mean, you know, like one of the things

00:20:13   that's complicated for me emotionally

00:20:15   is I genuinely owe my entire career to Twitter.

00:20:18   Like the people that I met, like you guys

00:20:21   and being able to kind of get my work out back in the day

00:20:24   when like tech podcasting was new

00:20:26   and people would pay attention and that kind of stuff, right?

00:20:29   Like that like all this new podcasts

00:20:30   such and such persons on this show, and it helped me build up the network that I have now.

00:20:35   And so it's like a really weird thing to let go of it, but it just isn't for me the same anymore.

00:20:42   And you may be out there having the exact same experience, but it's just different for me.

00:20:47   As Steven said, we're all different people and we've come from different places.

00:20:50   And that's what I, it's a really great way of like, my thing about Mastodon, right?

00:20:55   Like I understand that people are having a great time on Mastodon right now,

00:20:59   I see like the spectrum and what you two are doing right where Steven you are gonna use it

00:21:03   Every now and again and Federico you want to go home on it like and I recommend people do whatever they want for me

00:21:09   Personally, like I just want to try to live a life where this kind of social media is completely 100% gone

00:21:16   Yeah, and see what that's like. So I have no intention of joining any service. Mm-hmm

00:21:21   I may in the future hell I might even come back to Twitter in a year. Like I don't know

00:21:26   I just know where I am right now, which is like, I don't want, I want to, I have lived since

00:21:32   2014 or whatever, right? Like earlier than that, what, 2000, when did we join Twitter?

00:21:38   I joined in '07. So I joined in '07.

00:21:41   In '09 over here.

00:21:42   And I know I took it some time away. So let's say like the last 12 years

00:21:46   this has been a part of my life every single day and I want to try

00:21:52   Not that I see what that's about, you know

00:21:55   One I think element to that that's that's important is like is leaving the door open to the future

00:22:02   but the other thing that I think of it, I'm not trying to like

00:22:05   randomly bodies Mastodon parade here, but

00:22:08   Mastodon has the same inherent risks that

00:22:13   Twitter does the assets federated. So if like a server full of Nazis comes along you can just

00:22:19   de-federate them and they're gone.

00:22:21   But ultimately every single social media platform ends in this conversation we're having now. Because of the

00:22:29   business incentives of these companies,

00:22:32   they promote and craft their apps for engagement. And what that really means is

00:22:39   argument. I mean it is the reason none of us are on Facebook, right? Like

00:22:45   Facebook did this and you know, maybe potentially damaged democracy forever and

00:22:50   Twitter is

00:22:53   Has this alignment as well now?

00:22:55   With mastodon, you know, yeah, like you can be a patreon like back the server and stuff

00:23:00   But ultimately if it reaches a critical mass, which I would argue it has not

00:23:04   Then it is going to eventually have these issues and maybe it's not because it's ad-driven

00:23:11   maybe it's just because you have so many people there and

00:23:15   It's inevitable when you have that many people in a room that things will happen. I just I've been on the internet too long

00:23:22   to be super hopeful that Macedon can be like the one savior of social media and

00:23:28   Again, I'm not trying to anybody's parade. I'm just not very optimistic about it that it's going to be something that really

00:23:35   Takes off in a way and then doesn't lead to this down the road because it always leads to this down the road

00:23:43   Yeah, I feel like the technological aspect is interesting in that, like, as long as it's all open source,

00:23:52   it's like basically a different spin on RSS, which is why I think we are looking into it.

00:23:58   Not just in terms of like, oh, we really need to have a Twitter replacement, but because

00:24:03   the foundation behind it we can use in a bunch of different ways in the future.

00:24:08   I feel like it's fun to be on Mastodon itself right now because it's very reminiscent of early Twitter.

00:24:16   You know, when you have basically tech people be early adopters and it's fun to see like the

00:24:23   conversations right now about, you know, you join Mastodon and part of the conversation is about

00:24:29   Mastodon itself, which is really reminiscent of early days Twitter when everybody was talking

00:24:34   about, you know, I remember, for example, when Twitter launched native retweets, like

00:24:40   they didn't used to be a feature. And now, exactly. And now everybody like a bunch, not

00:24:47   everybody, but a lot of people that I follow on Mastodon are talking about whether or not

00:24:52   Mastodon should have quote posts, like you can quote tweet on Twitter. And there's like

00:24:58   this whole thing, this whole conversation about should we replicate the behavior and

00:25:02   the design of Twitter for quoting a post by somebody else

00:25:06   or not.

00:25:07   The entire scene is very reminiscent of that era

00:25:10   of 2010 Twitter.

00:25:12   Otherwise, I just feel like I want

00:25:16   to keep having this sort of avenue in terms of I

00:25:20   can have a stream of short posts where I can share quick things

00:25:26   about my work or a picture of something I'm listening to

00:25:30   or a photo of my dog or a stupid thing I just thought of.

00:25:34   I think for me, it's a fun thing to have in my life.

00:25:39   But given the kind of person I've become

00:25:43   and given my line of work,

00:25:45   I think it's actually preferable

00:25:46   if I use something like Mastodon where I own my content

00:25:49   and I can spin up my own server

00:25:51   and I fully control the thing with the technology

00:25:54   that in the future I can reuse to my advantage

00:25:57   in a future version of Mac Stories.

00:25:59   Essentially, and I mean, we've been talking about this

00:26:02   in the open, it's no secret.

00:26:04   I think one of the things we are considering

00:26:06   for the future of Max Stories is having the ability

00:26:11   to more quickly and easily share

00:26:16   a work-related short posts, you know?

00:26:20   That can be on my website,

00:26:23   but that can also be shared to other channels.

00:26:26   And right now, the design of Max Stories

00:26:28   doesn't really lend itself well to that type of status update.

00:26:32   I mean, I could write a post that it's like 50 words

00:26:37   and be like, iOS 17 beta 2 is out,

00:26:41   but it will look stupid on the front page.

00:26:43   Yeah, I've got the same problem.

00:26:44   Well, you and I have talked about this.

00:26:46   Like, 512's design also doesn't work for that.

00:26:49   We talked about this.

00:26:50   So what we're saying is the Verge was right.

00:26:52   Yes, actually.

00:26:53   I think their redesign is super smart.

00:26:55   I love their website so much.

00:26:57   and they would, they, I don't know how they did it,

00:27:00   but they hit on that short post thing.

00:27:03   Just like that story stream that they have.

00:27:05   - I disagree with the fact that they have comments on there.

00:27:10   - Yeah, but they're way bigger than we are.

00:27:11   - But good call, but good call on the short posts.

00:27:15   Like that's, you got to hand it to them.

00:27:19   It was a great idea.

00:27:20   Especially given how things have gone with Twitter.

00:27:24   So, and I think Nilay is also gone from Twitter, by the way.

00:27:28   - Yeah, he was one of the, it was like,

00:27:30   Nilay and Casey Newton both leave in on the same day.

00:27:34   It like really put something in my brain.

00:27:36   And I was just like, these are two people

00:27:38   who I really look up to and really respect.

00:27:41   And, you know, I've been following both

00:27:43   of their thought processes, like on the Vergecast

00:27:46   and in Platformer, and it was just like,

00:27:49   I kind of couldn't, I couldn't argue,

00:27:52   I cannot argue with any of the things that they're saying.

00:27:55   And so it's just like, if I can't make an argument,

00:27:57   then why am I still here?

00:28:00   I'm looking for cool RSS feeds.

00:28:03   If people have cool RSS feeds, send them to me.

00:28:06   How are you gonna send them to me?

00:28:07   Well, that's for you to work out.

00:28:09   You know what I mean?

00:28:09   - Very early 2000s energy from Myke over here.

00:28:14   - Yeah.

00:28:15   - Looking for cool blogs.

00:28:16   - I really am looking for the cool blogs.

00:28:19   It's kind of funny really because a couple of episodes ago on Cortex,

00:28:24   Gray said this and I made fun of him.

00:28:26   You were making fun of Gray. You were making fun of him.

00:28:29   And now I now want the cool blogs.

00:28:33   I mean, because if you think about it really, Gray was ahead of all of us, right?

00:28:36   Well, he tends to be.

00:28:37   He embraced this a long time ago.

00:28:40   I want some cool blogs.

00:28:41   So if you can send me the cool blogs, because really it's like,

00:28:44   I need to make sure that I'm keeping up to date with tech news and Apple news and opinions

00:28:53   on it. The news part, following the news part, no problem, right? Mac stories, Mac rumors,

00:28:59   9 to 5 Mac, I'm all good. I've got it covered. But what I'm not getting there or what I worry

00:29:04   I won't get there is the little interesting things that people say on Twitter. You know

00:29:08   what I mean? So I don't know if it's an issue for me to miss it. I don't know if I'm going

00:29:14   miss it, I'll find out. But, you know, if you've got the cool blogs, give me the cool blogs.

00:29:19   I should just export my things from Feedbin and just give it to you. I've been working on this.

00:29:25   Yes, both of you. If you could just maybe screenshot or just give me your OPML files,

00:29:32   that will be good.

00:29:33   I'm sending it to you right now because, incidentally, I just migrated from

00:29:37   Inoreader to Feedbin again last night, and I have my opml file right here.

00:29:44   Give me the opml files, although I'm worried that I'm accidentally going to add them in

00:29:48   to my feeds, but I can just deal with that.

00:29:50   I'm sending it here.

00:29:52   And then I can do whatever I want.

00:29:53   Okay, here you go.

00:29:54   Thank you.

00:29:55   Inoreader feeds there.

00:29:57   It's an XML file, but it's structured for what you need.

00:30:02   Thank you.

00:30:03   [MUSIC]

00:30:11   >> Oh, sorry, it was me.

00:30:12   [LAUGHTER]

00:30:13   >> Every time.

00:30:14   >> I'm never ready for this.

00:30:16   It happens like once every three weeks,

00:30:18   and I was away for a long time.

00:30:19   I don't know. All right.

00:30:20   From Relay FM, this is Connected Episode 428.

00:30:24   Today's show is brought to you by Trade Coffee,

00:30:26   Capital One, and Bombas.

00:30:28   My name is Myke Hurley,

00:30:29   and I'm joined by Federico Vittucci.

00:30:31   >> Hello, Myke. I can't, I know it's

00:30:32   really you if you're not on Twitter anymore.

00:30:35   It's a very good point.

00:30:36   It's a very good point.

00:30:37   Do I have to like, what is that thing?

00:30:39   Like that secret key thing?

00:30:42   How do you verify yourself on a podcast?

00:30:45   Because I think you can.

00:30:46   The AI's coming for us.

00:30:48   They're going to pretend to be me,

00:30:49   and then no one's ever going to know.

00:30:51   But you remember that thing?

00:30:52   People would be like, they post like a code in their bio,

00:30:56   and then that somehow verified them?

00:30:58   I need to do one of those.

00:31:00   Basically, at the start of every episode,

00:31:01   I'm going to give you half of an encryption key.

00:31:04   Yeah.

00:31:05   #CodeInBio.

00:31:06   You haven't been introduced yet.

00:31:07   Hold on, Steven.

00:31:08   You didn't.

00:31:09   Yeah, you got to wait.

00:31:10   So yeah, that's what I'm going to do now.

00:31:11   I'm going to give, at the beginning of every episode, I will start with a series of 16 numbers.

00:31:16   All the listeners will have the other 16 numbers and if they match, then it's me.

00:31:20   This is like when you send an email with that fancy system, like the PGP key.

00:31:24   What's it called?

00:31:25   Oh, PGP key.

00:31:26   Yeah.

00:31:27   It's like, yeah.

00:31:28   It's also my pleasure to introduce our other co-host, Mr. Steven Hackett.

00:31:32   Hello, Steven.

00:31:33   Hello, boys.

00:31:34   Yes.

00:31:35   Hi.

00:31:36   How are you?

00:31:37   I am good.

00:31:38   It's pouring down rain outside, which is... would be more fun, but it's rained every day

00:31:41   for the last, like, 10 days, and I'm kind of over it.

00:31:45   We have some real-time... is it follow-up?

00:31:50   How can we have real-time follow-up if we've just started the show?

00:31:54   What are we following up to?

00:31:56   Well, it's pre-follow-up in the sense that before we talk about the topic one that we

00:32:03   have in the document, which is about iOS 16.2. So this is like I am having a sort of a topic

00:32:11   preamble, essentially iOS 16.3 beta one is coming today.

00:32:16   Oh my God.

00:32:18   Yeah.

00:32:19   What?

00:32:20   Wow. 10 days before Christmas, Apple has no chill.

00:32:25   How could it have in it that it needs to be a whole new point release?

00:32:28   Stage Manager changes, baby!

00:32:30   No, I don't know.

00:32:31   I don't know.

00:32:32   Like, why can't it be 16.2.1?

00:32:34   Apple Music Classical!

00:32:36   Come on.

00:32:37   Oh, I guess it could.

00:32:38   I mean, it could.

00:32:39   I mean, it could.

00:32:40   Man, they just got to...

00:32:42   They're just doing so much over there.

00:32:44   So let's talk about 16.2, which is a huge release, right?

00:32:49   Like so much stuff in iOS 16.2.

00:32:52   I read your article, Federico, on Stage Manager.

00:32:56   Thank you.

00:32:57   It kind of feels like what I took away from it, high level,

00:33:00   is the concept of Stage Manager, good.

00:33:03   Implementation, still bad.

00:33:05   Yes, that's the takeaway from the story.

00:33:09   Yes, it's that.

00:33:11   I mean, Windows on an external display, great.

00:33:15   I'm using them right now.

00:33:16   I'm looking at them right now.

00:33:18   Great idea.

00:33:19   makes your iPad feel like a proper computer that you can now plug into a display and have

00:33:25   additional windows on the display. Implementation is still bad, and it's especially silly.

00:33:29   We were talking about the problems of Stage Manager before on the iPad's display,

00:33:36   and how Stage Manager sort of forces you to have these preset sizes and it rearranges windows for

00:33:42   you, and let me tell you, those choices are even more apparent when you plug it into a 5K display.

00:33:49   and you end up, like you have two windows on screen

00:33:53   and you want to place them for whatever reason,

00:33:56   because maybe you just like them

00:33:57   and you want to place one on the left

00:33:59   and one all the way to the right

00:34:00   and the stage manager doesn't let you,

00:34:03   well, that just feels silly

00:34:05   when you're using an external display.

00:34:07   - Because you have the space, right?

00:34:09   Like there's so much space,

00:34:10   you don't need the system to arrange it for you.

00:34:13   - Exactly, exactly.

00:34:14   And then there's also the performance issues,

00:34:19   Like, I have been using this setup for the past two weeks and I really love it ever since

00:34:23   I went all in with the Mac Mini and Universal Control.

00:34:28   I really love this system, but I've got to be honest, Stage Manager crashes at least

00:34:32   once a day on my iPad.

00:34:34   Like I'm doing something and at least once a day I see the black screen with the spinner

00:34:38   in the middle and everything resets.

00:34:41   Like, that still happens.

00:34:43   It appears that iOS 16.3 beta 1 is out, as I am talking right now.

00:34:50   But yeah, we'll see what Apple has in store for Stage Manager.

00:34:55   When it comes to external display integration, it's what we got this summer before it was

00:35:02   pulled, but now thankfully it's in much better shape than before.

00:35:08   crashing once a day or so for me. Earlier this year it used to crash like every 10 minutes

00:35:16   or so. So it's much better than that. If you tried it months ago and never tried it again,

00:35:22   do it. But otherwise, you know, don't expect major changes from Stage Manager yet.

00:35:32   Something that I took away from your article which really boggled my mind and like I think

00:35:37   I think I've understood it correctly from how you put it in the piece, is that there

00:35:43   is like a fundamental difference between the way it handles multiple screens to how a Mac

00:35:48   handles multiple screens.

00:35:50   So like, if you have the Notes app on the iPad screen and you have like Safari on the

00:35:58   external display and you go down to the dock and tap the Notes app icon, it puts the Notes

00:36:04   app on the external display, right?

00:36:07   Which like on the Mac if you have that it just makes the app active on the screen that it's on.

00:36:14   That is wild to me that it does that.

00:36:17   Here it moves it.

00:36:18   Yeah I find that wild because it's like what's the point in having the iPad?

00:36:23   Like why even have... why did they make it that you have to have the iPad screen open to use this

00:36:30   if they don't treat the iPad screen as a like the main screen?

00:36:35   It's like weird to me. It's very weird to me.

00:36:37   Yeah, well, they made this decision of the act of clicking an icon means making sure

00:36:46   that you see the app.

00:36:50   It's this very conscious decision that they made because it also works the same way for

00:36:54   Spotlight.

00:36:55   So if you open Spotlight on an external display and you select Notes, and Notes is actually

00:37:00   on the iPad, you're not going to activate it on the iPad, you're going to activate it

00:37:05   and move it to the external display. So like, I think the underlying design decision is

00:37:12   on iPadOS when you click an icon you need to see the app for it. It's different from

00:37:18   the Mac.

00:37:19   And they've chosen the external display as the primary display, right?

00:37:25   No, not always. What do you mean, primary?

00:37:27   Well like, if you click an icon, is it always going to move it to the external display?

00:37:32   No, it's always gonna move to the most recently act display you're on.

00:37:38   That's weird to me. That's very weird to me.

00:37:40   Display where the pointer is.

00:37:43   Sure, I see that, right? Like I see why you made that decision.

00:37:48   But I also don't know why, if the decision had already been made on the Mac,

00:37:53   like if this never existed, right?

00:37:56   Like if the Mac didn't exist, I would understand why you made this decision.

00:38:01   But it's weird to me that you make that decision knowing how the other system works and is fine.

00:38:08   Yeah, interesting. It's just an interesting thing.

00:38:10   I was like, "Oh, I don't think I would like that."

00:38:13   Because moving from the Mac and moving to the iPad and Mac frequently,

00:38:19   if I used it this way, I would break my brain a bit, I think.

00:38:23   I wanted to echo your disappointment for there being no changes to the app strip.

00:38:29   Because there's no changes on the Mac either.

00:38:32   They would add more functionality to it, right?

00:38:34   That you could actually say, as I said before, click the icons and just bring them to the

00:38:40   space, right?

00:38:41   But no, none of that kind of stuff.

00:38:44   But at least it's working mostly and better and they've released all of the things that

00:38:48   they said they were going to release and now we can just hope that they will do more of

00:38:53   it.

00:38:54   Let's see with this beta.

00:38:55   I'm optimistic.

00:38:56   I choose to be optimistic.

00:38:57   is the energy I'm bringing into this beta. I'm optimistic about it.

00:39:01   Are we gonna find out before the end of this episode, do you think?

00:39:04   No, he's recording on his Mac through his iPad. He can't get his iPad anymore live.

00:39:10   Exactly. So, well, technically I can. I can update this iPad.

00:39:17   You just can't see anything for a while.

00:39:18   I just can't see anything for a while, but I can also just take this Thunderbolt cable,

00:39:23   get into the Mac Mini and that's done, you know, so I probably will.

00:39:29   Yeah, although my internet is slow.

00:39:32   It says about an hour remaining.

00:39:34   I don't think it'll do it in time.

00:39:37   16.2 and Mac OS 13.1 also brings with it Freeform, which Jon had an article about, Jason had

00:39:45   an article about.

00:39:46   I'm deep in it for a future MPU episode.

00:39:50   And even though these sort of infinite canvas, like sketch, draw, image type apps, they don't

00:39:57   really jive with the way that I work normally.

00:40:00   Freeform seems really well done and pretty robust for a 1.0.

00:40:07   I really like what they've done here.

00:40:10   I think it's interesting that they are combining, like you can see there's the DNA of Notes,

00:40:15   the DNA of iWork apps in free form. You can see all these different influences in the app.

00:40:22   It's going to be interesting to see how people use it, how people react to it. I think Apple,

00:40:30   when they announced it, they showed off all the collaborative use cases, where I actually think

00:40:38   there's plenty of sort of single user use cases as well. You can just use it for yourself if you

00:40:45   you want to have like a richer take on a mind map, basically, that supports multiple types

00:40:51   of input and data.

00:40:54   It's still odd, I think Jason wrote about this on Six Colors, it's still odd in that

00:40:58   sometimes the gestures, they do one thing and other times they do something else, like

00:41:03   sometimes you want to drag and drop an object and sometimes it works and other times you're

00:41:08   duplicating the object.

00:41:09   John took this deep dive because of course he did. He tried all the file types he could think of

00:41:16   and tried to drop all these embedded files into a board on Freeform and most of them,

00:41:23   impressively, most of them they worked with inline previews, others they did not, and so maybe Apple

00:41:29   has some work to do there. I think it's very fun though. I'd be curious to see how this evolves

00:41:37   alongside Notes in the future, because we have gotten used to Notes getting these annual updates,

00:41:45   especially in recent years. You can see Notes reminders really on track for these annual updates.

00:41:51   What's going to happen to Freeform? Is it going to be like a one-off? Is it the new clips?

00:41:55   Are we going to get updates every so often? Or is Apple behind Freeform as much as they are

00:42:03   with notes and reminders, I don't know. Do they need to? Probably not.

00:42:07   Freeform is one of those apps where I feel like I wish I had a reason to use it but I'm not sure

00:42:13   that I have a reason to use it. Like I have a couple of things I think I could do with it

00:42:17   but like I don't know if I will. Like one of them was, you know, in John's piece he had a freeform

00:42:23   canvas board, whatever they're called, where he was planning out some home automation stuff and

00:42:28   And this was the thing that I used my Apple Pencil for in the Notes app to draw out some

00:42:33   diagrams when I was buying some stuff for the house.

00:42:36   And I would have used Freeform for this if it was available.

00:42:39   And similarly for product design kind of stuff, I could imagine using it.

00:42:43   You could put some images that you've drawn, some things you're bringing in, and create

00:42:46   almost like a mood board kind of thing.

00:42:49   So maybe I could imagine myself using it for that, but I haven't yet, and I don't know

00:42:53   if I will.

00:42:54   It's a cool application, but just my...

00:42:57   I wonder who is gonna use this a lot.

00:43:00   That's what I'm wondering about.

00:43:02   Or is it just one of those things

00:43:03   that it demos really well

00:43:04   and you can have a fun time in it when you're in it?

00:43:06   But will you rely on it the same way

00:43:08   you rely on notes and reminders?

00:43:10   That I just, I'm not sure about.

00:43:13   - Maybe it's gonna be more like an iWork app

00:43:16   that's gonna get a bunch of features every so often

00:43:18   with updates, but not like-- - But that makes sense too.

00:43:20   I don't use pages and numbers every day,

00:43:22   but when I do, I use them and I love them for that.

00:43:24   And so maybe you're right, free form's just part of that for me.

00:43:27   Where like I've played with it and it's fine,

00:43:29   but I haven't had a real thing to do in it yet.

00:43:32   So I don't think I've understood its kind of power,

00:43:35   but I'm going to keep it in my mind.

00:43:38   Apple tried to really make it obvious to me

00:43:41   by putting it on my home screen of my iPhone,

00:43:44   moving all of my apps and widgets to other pages.

00:43:47   Appreciate that.

00:43:48   That was great.

00:43:49   Thank you.

00:43:49   Do you like the icon?

00:43:51   I kind of love it.

00:43:52   Love the icon.

00:43:53   Love the icon.

00:43:54   It's that kind of like 80s style.

00:43:57   It reminds me of like that jazz.

00:43:59   Is it called jazz?

00:44:01   - Okay.

00:44:02   - Purple and yeah.

00:44:03   It's like the cups.

00:44:04   It's called jazz design.

00:44:06   So you'll know it when you see it.

00:44:08   - Also in these new releases is doing air quotes,

00:44:12   real time collaboration where you can share a note

00:44:17   with another person or a group of people.

00:44:19   And you've been able to do that for a long time,

00:44:21   but it was not real time.

00:44:24   like a chunk of text would come in at once or an image would suddenly show up

00:44:27   or you would type on top of each other and then your sentences would just get

00:44:31   melded somehow. We have played with this. What are y'all's impressions so far of

00:44:36   the updated notes collaboration? I feel like it's embarrassed me. It's made a

00:44:42   fool out of me. Because, so here's things you can do, right? If you open a note on

00:44:47   two devices and type, it's like immediately updates. It's incredible. It's

00:44:52   like as fast as Google Docs. Today I was, you know, you know, we all must all have

00:44:58   this, but like, you know, I'm going to hand to my wife like, "Can you please install

00:45:01   this version of the operating system on your device?" All the time. Like this has been

00:45:06   particularly bad right now for reasons we'll get into later on. We're like,

00:45:09   everyone needs to be on the same version, which is not normal, but it's happening.

00:45:13   And so like when we were in a note together and writing and it was like

00:45:16   immediate, she was typing, I could see it and then I said, "Oh guys, we're gonna try

00:45:20   us out. Steven created a note for the four of us and it was a disaster. Yeah.

00:45:23   And it didn't work at all. It was just like how it used to be where these big

00:45:27   chunks. Now I reckon someone, one of the four of us is on the wrong version of an

00:45:31   operating system. That's my theory. That someone's on the wrong version somewhere.

00:45:35   So I, but like maybe there's something going wrong somewhere. Although. There he goes.

00:45:41   That may have been me. Yeah, there you go. See I knew it. So to answer Kate's question, yes the

00:45:47   fourth person is OTJ. The Mac Mini. I didn't update the Mac Mini. But

00:45:52   Notes was not open on the Mac Mini. Does it still matter? I don't know. I

00:45:57   don't know. But maybe it's better with two people than four people but like

00:46:02   even me and Steven were trying it out and it wasn't working so maybe Steven's

00:46:05   the problem. But I don't know. I've seen great results and so I think jury's

00:46:09   still out on this one. I think I think that's fair. It's not it's not fully done

00:46:14   but I like that they're doing stuff with this also was this I mean was this

00:46:20   talked about in advance like I think it just showed up I don't think it was I

00:46:25   think they did it nobody knew about it because no one looked and now some

00:46:29   developers are talking about it I would like it to be a reasonable replacement

00:46:35   for something like Google Docs I really like using Google Docs for the shows and

00:46:38   I honestly don't want to use notes, but for other things, I think it'd be it'd be great if it were better because

00:46:46   It was so frustrating to use before right where you would have those collisions and like delays and you know

00:46:53   You get the sidebar and you kind of see what people are doing and there's actually a really nice

00:46:57   Feature in I think the notes is better than Google Docs like right now in our Google Docs that we all have our own color

00:47:03   Cursor right you can kind of see them in the document like there's a purple one appear

00:47:08   There's a pink one down here and notes recreates that but it also has the little face of the

00:47:14   person over it.

00:47:16   And if you mouse over it on the Mac at least it expands out to their full name.

00:47:20   So if you had a note shared with you know more than just one person you could see where

00:47:24   everybody is and what they're doing.

00:47:25   And I think their implementation of it's a little bit better polished than Google Docs.

00:47:30   But I think they still have some work to do here.

00:47:33   But hopefully it continues to get better.

00:47:35   So me and Federico are in a note right now and it seems to be working much better.

00:47:41   So I think Steven's the problem.

00:47:42   No, I'm on 13.1.

00:47:45   Everything's up to date.

00:47:46   I have advanced data protection on.

00:47:47   Me and you were trying to do it earlier and it wasn't working.

00:47:50   And yeah, maybe you're just too encrypted.

00:47:52   But like I can see Federico, he's like moving things up and down and it's happening what

00:47:56   in what looks like real time to me.

00:47:59   So Steven's the problem.

00:48:00   We've worked that out.

00:48:02   Yeah.

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00:49:55   thanks to Trade Coffee for their support of the show and Relay FM. So you're too encrypted is the problem?

00:50:00   I'm totes encrypted baby. So I set up the advanced data protection

00:50:05   last night on my devices. You have to have everything up to date with

00:50:09   16.2 or Mac OS 13.1, watch OS 9.2

00:50:15   So when you go to do this

00:50:19   It's in the main iCloud settings screen and settings on the Mac and everywhere else not in the password security

00:50:25   Subsection of iCloud where you think it would be in fact

00:50:29   I thought I didn't have access to it for some reason until I looked up a k-base article telling me how to do it

00:50:33   So it will tell you what devices are logged in with your Apple ID that are not up to date

00:50:40   So mine I had to wait on like one of my two HomePod minis in my office

00:50:44   Like it just took a long time for one of them to come back after the update

00:50:48   But eventually was able to do it

00:50:50   You might also find a hilarious number of old devices signed into your Apple ID account

00:50:56   I think John and I both had that experience yesterday

00:50:58   You two are very like the type of person that would have that you especially I don't know what that means

00:51:06   What does that mean that you have lots of old devices around are you not that kind of person?

00:51:10   I was signed into a performer with my iCloud account

00:51:13   Dealt with all that got everything up to date enabled it on my account. So I did I did a few things

00:51:19   I made sure that my legacy contacts

00:51:22   So if I kick it other people can get into my iCloud account

00:51:26   I made sure that was all set up the way I wanted and it was I set up a couple people as my

00:51:31   Regular recovery contacts if I'm locked out, you know, they can go to

00:51:35   I'm not gonna say who but a couple of people and get get access I can get access that way

00:51:40   I then enabled the fancy 28 digit recovery key

00:51:45   The way that that works I'd added all this on the Mac, but from reading through Apple's documentation

00:51:51   It's the same process everywhere you say okay. I want to create this you authenticate it then shows you

00:51:58   the

00:52:00   28-digit key you have an option to print it

00:52:04   So I printed it and it's in a safe place

00:52:08   Where is it? Tell me where is it?

00:52:10   It's in a safe place.

00:52:11   Come on, tell us where it is. Is it in one part?

00:52:13   Tell us where it is.

00:52:14   Is it physical?

00:52:15   Come on, come on.

00:52:16   It's under Federico's mattress right now.

00:52:18   Did you go physical or digital? Just answer that.

00:52:20   Both.

00:52:21   Oooh.

00:52:22   Oh!

00:52:23   Federico, you know he's got like a safe inside of one of those Macs or something, you know?

00:52:28   Yeah, he's got a safe thing going. Yeah.

00:52:32   how how sometimes you like in a movie they go into a library and like one of

00:52:38   the books is hollowed out there's a gun in it oh my god it's like that but

00:52:41   computers and pass keys you've got a gun in there's no guns no guns I do not own

00:52:46   a gun you said it was an example so did all that you then type in the recovery

00:52:51   key you can't paste into the window I tried because I'm lazy typed it in and

00:52:57   then I was able to turn on advanced data protection it walks you through that

00:53:02   it makes really sure that you know what you're doing. Wait, wait, wait, I want to go

00:53:06   back a couple of steps there so I'm gonna make sure I understand. So you get the recovery key, they

00:53:09   make you type it back? Yes. That is incredibly good design. It is good. Right,

00:53:15   because it means you have to have written it down. Yes. Or printed it off,

00:53:19   or put it so you have to have done that? Yeah. Because you can't just be like, "I'll

00:53:23   copy paste," like, whatever. I think that's very smart. I had the same thought

00:53:27   process, like, this is well thought through. Yeah, that's really good. So did all that,

00:53:31   and then was able to turn on advanced data protection.

00:53:35   Using all my stuff last night and today,

00:53:38   I cannot tell a difference.

00:53:39   Like everything works just the way it did.

00:53:42   Photo syncs just as fast as it always did.

00:53:45   Maybe that's why notes are slow, I don't know.

00:53:47   - Can you imagine?

00:53:48   - So I did all this.

00:53:49   - Oh, it is?

00:53:50   - That'd be incredible.

00:53:51   So I did all of this, it was great.

00:53:52   I thought, okay, I'm gonna do Mary's as well.

00:53:54   So I went through the same process,

00:53:57   her legacy contacts, her recovery contacts,

00:53:59   everything was good.

00:54:00   When I went to generate the 28 digit recovery key

00:54:05   and then re-enter it, her Mac told me repeatedly

00:54:09   that the key was incorrect and it would not let me

00:54:12   move forward in actually setting the key.

00:54:14   So it doesn't turn the key on, for lack of a better phrase,

00:54:18   until you manually say this is what the key is,

00:54:22   which again, smart design.

00:54:24   Tried a couple different times, didn't work.

00:54:26   I then, I'm like, well, you know,

00:54:28   I don't know what's going on.

00:54:29   So I grabbed my laptop, I'm gonna do some Googling,

00:54:31   and I have like three emails from people saying,

00:54:33   "Hey, are you seeing this error?

00:54:35   "I'm getting this error when trying to do this."

00:54:38   So I don't know if iCloud or something,

00:54:42   like too many people were trying to do it,

00:54:44   or what the deal is, I have not tried again on her account.

00:54:47   But if you are seeing where you re-enter

00:54:50   the 28 digit recovery key and you know that it's correct,

00:54:55   I mean, I like painfully like out loud was like,

00:54:57   capital P, capital P, you know, one, one, you know,

00:55:02   spelled it all out.

00:55:03   - Is that your key?

00:55:04   Is that how it starts?

00:55:05   - It's PP11.

00:55:06   (laughing)

00:55:09   - It was weird, mine was actually, was just, yeah,

00:55:11   it's just three, just repeated over and over.

00:55:14   - PP11.

00:55:15   - So I don't know what the deal is with that.

00:55:17   I'm gonna try hers again probably this weekend.

00:55:19   Everything's up to date on her account.

00:55:20   It's just that this fails and I'm not able to move forward

00:55:24   from that, so seems a little weird.

00:55:27   definitely scared me a little bit. I was like, for a second, I was like, oh, no,

00:55:32   like I just set a recovery key on her account that I don't know. Like,

00:55:35   Oh, wow. That's, that's when, uh, my ears get hot.

00:55:40   I do those kinds of things and like, then my ears get warm.

00:55:44   You're like, oh no, I've done something that cannot be undone, but it doesn't,

00:55:47   it doesn't set the key.

00:55:48   I've said something should happen.

00:55:50   But it doesn't set the key until you manually reenter it.

00:55:53   So I don't know what the deal is. Um, so yeah,

00:55:56   I've got turned on and I think if you're in the US or in a country where this rolls out in the future

00:56:02   It's definitely worth looking at I wanted the additional security. I'm

00:56:05   Capable of managing the recovery key and you know having my legacy contacts and everything all done

00:56:10   so you got to jump through some hoops with it, but I think it's well worth it and

00:56:14   So far so good at least on my account and I'll follow up with Mary's like I said, I'm gonna try hers again this weekend

00:56:20   I think talking about updating every device the new home architecture

00:56:25   So the new home app, it has a new architecture.

00:56:29   What does it do?

00:56:30   Unclear exactly.

00:56:32   - Yeah.

00:56:33   - Performance improvements.

00:56:34   I was like, I was thinking to myself,

00:56:35   hmm, my home feels snappier, right?

00:56:37   It was just what I was imagining.

00:56:39   (laughing)

00:56:40   And it has more support for Matter,

00:56:43   but it also kind of did, it's like what that exactly means.

00:56:47   It's not entirely clear, but it's like you want it, right?

00:56:52   Like, but they make it complicated.

00:56:55   Like every device has to be updated

00:56:58   and everyone's, not just yours,

00:57:00   everybody's devices and across multiple homes.

00:57:03   So like I have HomeKit stuff at the studio

00:57:05   and HomeKit stuff at home.

00:57:06   - Do you have two homes set up in HomeKit then?

00:57:09   - If I wanted to update my home,

00:57:11   it's like, oh, you've also got to do stuff at the studio

00:57:14   because otherwise none of that's gonna work anymore.

00:57:16   It's basically what it tells me.

00:57:17   And it's like, okay.

00:57:19   So like it's doing something on your phone.

00:57:21   I think the matter stuff is making the phone the matter controller.

00:57:25   So a lot of things need to be done and I'm wondering if I should wait a bit because I've

00:57:28   still got devices that I haven't plugged in after moving.

00:57:32   We've not plugged in our home pods yet.

00:57:35   So I figure I should probably do that and update them before I do this.

00:57:38   Now I'm sure I could just turn them on and update them to 16.2 and it will work but it's

00:57:43   also a bit like, ooh, I don't know if I want to do that.

00:57:46   Because today I finished updating all of my devices.

00:57:49   of my devices done because it gives you a little list it tells you like this Mac

00:57:52   and this watch you've got to do them so I did them and then like oh by the way

00:57:56   these people so I could just did in it all of their stuffs gonna be done or

00:58:00   it's not gonna work for them either it's like whoa geez okay so it's pretty

00:58:04   extensive which I think is at the moment why it's quite hard to find in the home

00:58:10   app where to do this because I think they don't want yeah it's buried yeah

00:58:16   You have to go into the settings inside of the home app and go software update

00:58:19   I figured out open the home app and get one of those splash screens like hey

00:58:23   New architecture hit this button. But yeah, it's it's a bit buried. I did it. It took about 30 seconds again

00:58:30   I can tell no difference. I did have the ear warming

00:58:33   I really like that as a phrase the ear warming moment where I hit the button on my phone and I was like

00:58:40   Oh, no, I run home bridge. My home bridge stuff is fine. Like it still all works. Okay now no

00:58:45   it's fine sometimes it's like once every nine months you have to rebuild your

00:58:49   home bridge from scratch I don't see what the big problem is windows users do

00:58:52   it you know see I've done it at Apple is very unclear about what it does or you

00:59:00   know anything like that but uh but yeah I'm upgraded so I'm I'm on that new home

00:59:05   architecture whatever that means I'm sure it'll be helpful in the future it

00:59:09   will be helpful in the future I think that they're gonna wait for a while

00:59:12   before pushing that screen because I saw that screen in a beta like I opened the

00:59:17   home app during a beta and showed me that screen yeah but okay and it's the screen

00:59:21   that you get when you go into the software update thing so but I think now

00:59:26   they're like well this is really complicated so they're just not going to

00:59:30   show it to people for a while maybe they'll wait until like the majority of

00:59:33   your devices are already done and then it will tell you hey you want to do this

00:59:37   rather than like making people jump through all these hoops just to make

00:59:41   this update. Yeah I still gotta do it. I'm staring at the screen now it says

00:59:46   upgrade all homes because I also have the multi home home kit setup thing

00:59:52   going. Multi home lifestyle. Yeah you know just switch between them whenever I

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01:01:15   Capital One, what's in your wallet?

01:01:18   - Was there anything of use that you can find?

01:01:21   - I don't know guys, I don't know, I don't see it.

01:01:23   (laughing)

01:01:25   - There's nothing in there.

01:01:26   This is the problem of not being on Twitter

01:01:28   'cause usually I would just have Twitter open right now

01:01:31   and we'll be waiting to see like,

01:01:33   oh, I found this thing, right?

01:01:35   I saw on the discord there's no release notes for the beta yet.

01:01:38   Yeah, there's no release notes.

01:01:40   I searched for Apple Music classical or just classic gold, but like there's

01:01:45   nothing. I opened the music app and there's nothing special about it.

01:01:50   Uh, you know, besides Apple Music Sing having a splash screen.

01:01:55   Uh, I didn't see anything in shortcuts.

01:01:58   I don't know.

01:01:59   Did you find the Epic Games Store?

01:02:02   Uh, no, I don't think it's in this version.

01:02:05   Maybe I gotta look better.

01:02:07   - Maybe next year.

01:02:09   - Maybe next year.

01:02:11   - Mark Gorman at Bloomberg is reporting

01:02:12   that teams at Apple, various employees,

01:02:15   lots of people have been tasked with opening up

01:02:18   big portions of iOS in anticipation of European Union rules

01:02:23   that would kind of make this unavoidable.

01:02:25   There are a few things here.

01:02:26   I'll list what they are

01:02:27   and then we can talk about some of this stuff.

01:02:28   So some of these things are private APIs.

01:02:31   So camera controls, NFC functionality,

01:02:34   find my access.

01:02:36   Basically, I looked at this as like

01:02:38   the things that people make, like

01:02:40   hardware that people makes the Apple

01:02:41   also makes that Apple is able to get

01:02:43   benefit from. Right.

01:02:44   So let's change that.

01:02:45   Scrapping the browser engine

01:02:48   requirements. Currently, every

01:02:50   browser on iOS runs the WebKit

01:02:52   engine, even if they would

01:02:54   even Firefox.

01:02:55   Yeah.

01:02:56   Or even if you're Chrome.

01:02:57   And this wasn't the case before.

01:02:59   And then Apple changed that.

01:03:01   Wait, it was it?

01:03:02   No, I think it's always been.

01:03:04   No, it hasn't always been the case.

01:03:05   Federico, can you adjudicate?

01:03:08   - No, never, never.

01:03:09   - No, never, no, never.

01:03:11   Okay, there you go, that's two to one.

01:03:13   So that idea would change.

01:03:14   There is talk about the possibility

01:03:17   of iMessage compatibility with other platforms,

01:03:21   but Mark Gurman is saying that Apple

01:03:23   is gonna fight this one, two for now, which is interesting,

01:03:26   because one of the ones that they seem to be preparing for

01:03:28   is the possibility of third-party app stores.

01:03:30   This could be an iOS 17 feature.

01:03:32   "The company is reportedly dedicating a significant amount of resources to this company-wide endeavor.

01:03:38   Apple is considering the idea of mandating certain security requirements, even if the

01:03:43   software is distributed outside of its store, and these apps could require verification

01:03:48   by Apple, a process that could carry a fee for developers."

01:03:52   So this is European Union, right?

01:03:55   And Mark Gurman right now is saying that he believes that, or is under the understanding

01:04:01   that Apple is currently planning for this to go into effect only in the places that

01:04:05   they need it. I wanted to see what you two thought about that because I think that if

01:04:09   they just start this, I would expect they're just going to go all in.

01:04:13   Well, that's the hope. I think it's such a massive technical undertaking that you might

01:04:20   as well do the work and do it everywhere, you know? I think this is obviously it's going

01:04:27   to be the story in our community for the next few months probably and into next year.

01:04:32   We've been talking about it for years anyway.

01:04:34   We've been talking about it for years. I just feel like at this time we need to be careful

01:04:40   what we wish for is sort of the angle that I've taken on this because there's multiple

01:04:45   ways in which this could go in unexpected directions. I just wanted to go through a

01:04:53   few scenarios with you guys. The first and obvious one, I mean, Gurman reported this.

01:04:59   Apple might as well say, "Fine, we will do site loading. We will now allow competing

01:05:04   app stores to exist. We will now let you download apps from trusted sources." But what if part

01:05:10   of that deal is, "Well, we are bringing our Gatekeeper technology to iOS and iPadOS."

01:05:17   And I, you know, I suppose they're doing it on both platforms. We're bringing Gatekeeper,

01:05:22   But now, if you want to have your app be verified via Gatekeeper, now you've got to give us

01:05:29   an annual fee that is like this massive verification fee. And you know that there could be ways

01:05:36   in which Apple could tell you, "Well, yeah, you can do it, but you've got to give us 20%

01:05:41   of your revenue every year."

01:05:43   Yep.

01:05:44   Can they do it? Will they do it?

01:05:46   They've done it with the third party payment stuff.

01:05:51   Do you remember that?

01:05:53   It was like in South Korea and it's in other places now,

01:05:55   I think it's in the Netherlands too,

01:05:56   where you have to do an audit for Apple

01:06:00   and give it to them and then they'll take--

01:06:02   - But the app was still distributed via the app store.

01:06:04   - But still they may just say, if it's on our platform,

01:06:07   you owe us 28%.

01:06:10   - They could say that.

01:06:11   And for as ridiculous as it could be,

01:06:14   will be like, "Hey, yes, we're happy. We cannot distribute apps outside of the App Store,

01:06:19   but we cannot avoid Apple's fee." And it's like a ridiculous... Like they could just

01:06:24   say it's 29% just out of spite to make it even more ironic, but they could do it. They

01:06:31   could do it.

01:06:33   The other scenario that I was imagining, like what you just mentioned, Myke, will this be

01:06:37   EU only or will it also extend to the US? If it stays EU only, I could see a problem

01:06:44   I mean, which some companies may say, well,

01:06:47   do we care about distributing apps when most of our users,

01:06:51   most of our audience is in the United States anyway?

01:06:54   Do we care about this particular change for Europe?

01:06:57   Now, Europe is a bigger market for a ton of companies

01:07:00   than say just South Korea, right?

01:07:03   It's a much bigger audience, but still.

01:07:06   - Or just the Netherlands, right?

01:07:08   - Or just the Netherlands. - Where they've been making

01:07:09   these particular changes, but Europe is here.

01:07:12   I mean, look, here's my thinking.

01:07:14   I don't think they're just gonna do USB-C on the iPhone

01:07:17   in only Europe.

01:07:18   (laughing)

01:07:19   And so I think it would be a similar thing here.

01:07:22   And also, it's like you may as well get ahead of this

01:07:27   before the, 'cause if this passes in the EU,

01:07:30   it's probably inevitably gonna pass,

01:07:31   depending on the government in America,

01:07:33   at least in some form,

01:07:35   because this kind of stuff's been bubbling around

01:07:37   in the States for a long time anyway, right?

01:07:39   The monopoly stuff.

01:07:40   - It has.

01:07:41   And so it feels an inevitability.

01:07:44   By the way, it's just like, how funny in hindsight is the name Gatekeeper?

01:07:47   Yeah, it's perfect.

01:07:50   If you think about it.

01:07:51   Because they're called Gatekeepers now.

01:07:54   Like all of this EU stuff, they refer to the companies as Gatekeepers.

01:07:59   It's perfect.

01:08:00   It's perfect.

01:08:01   I have a proposal.

01:08:02   Say that we're stuck with Lightning in the US and they switch ports in Europe.

01:08:09   That phone could be the iPhone E USB-C?

01:08:13   It's good.

01:08:14   EU.

01:08:15   It's good.

01:08:16   I feel like you could make a big Apple buddy in that situation going the other way too.

01:08:20   It's a reverse Apple buddy.

01:08:21   It's sending stuff to America.

01:08:23   Making bank out of the USB-C iPhone.

01:08:28   The other, I think the other scenario in which we, I think this is the one that's going to

01:08:33   happen and we gotta prepare ourselves. And it's fine, but just it will entail a change of habits.

01:08:40   And how we think of our phones. You know that if Apple opens up the platform to compete in

01:08:47   App Stores, you know that we're gonna end up in a situation where you have the meta store, and the

01:08:54   epic game store, and the Microsoft store. And you know that all these companies are gonna say, "Well,

01:09:00   We're taking these apps off the App Store and we're doing our own store.

01:09:05   You want Instagram? Go to the Meta store.

01:09:08   You want Fortnite? Go to the Epic store and so forth.

01:09:11   Now, this has been... This fragmentation of stores, of marketplaces,

01:09:16   has been mostly fine on computers and video game consoles.

01:09:20   We are used to that now.

01:09:22   I would say that this is a maybe, right?

01:09:24   Because Meta don't have their own Android store.

01:09:26   No, they don't, but, you know...

01:09:30   I could see this as a possibility, but I don't think... I hear a lot of people talk about this as an inevitability.

01:09:35   But if the majority of users are still using the App Store, which they will,

01:09:42   you want to be where the majority of users are. You don't want to make it 20 steps to download Instagram.

01:09:47   I don't think it's inevitable, but I think it's likely that more and more are going to happen.

01:09:52   Definitely. And the Epic Games Store is a perfect example, right?

01:09:55   And Microsoft talked about doing its own Xbox store for mobile games and cloud gaming.

01:10:01   But like, I think for gaming, this is fine because it already exists as a thing everywhere, right?

01:10:07   So gamers get it.

01:10:08   But realistically, you could also see a scenario in which companies like Setup could do,

01:10:13   "Well, now we have a store and you pay a subscription through us and you get a bunch of apps."

01:10:18   It also remains to be seen whether the same app can be distributed through multiple stores.

01:10:24   Can you be in a situation in a future iPhone where you have the same app on your phone

01:10:29   from multiple stores?

01:10:31   Like is that a potential thing that could happen?

01:10:35   I don't know.

01:10:36   I mean, if we model it on the Mac, yes.

01:10:38   Yes.

01:10:39   If you model it on the Mac, yes.

01:10:43   But if you think about it on your phone, it's kind of weird, right?

01:10:46   Timery.

01:10:47   Taylor's version.

01:10:48   You know what I mean?

01:10:49   Like that's what we get.

01:10:51   Yeah, it's exactly that.

01:10:52   So I think all of this is going to happen, and it will require a change of mindset in

01:10:57   how we think of our iPhone.

01:10:59   It's going to be more like a computer, more like a Mac than a phone, which is ironic because

01:11:04   iOS was based on my Quest 10, but still, you know, it's very different from what it is

01:11:08   right now.

01:11:09   And let me say, by the way, I am super happy that this is happening.

01:11:14   I am here for this chaos going into 2033.

01:11:17   I think it's about time that Apple, you know, opens up the...

01:11:21   Like I don't care.

01:11:22   pride open, you know, let it in, like I don't care, give me all the apps, give me all the apps, give me

01:11:28   software using private APIs, it's about time, you know, and it's unfortunate that a government agency

01:11:37   had to force Apple's hands here, but I continue to believe that it's absurd at this point that on

01:11:45   on Mac OS you can have Gatekeeper and on iOS and iPad OS you cannot.

01:11:50   What is it the optimal scenario that the EU had to force Apple to make it happen?

01:11:55   No, but the outcome, I kind of like it.

01:11:59   I want it.

01:12:00   Yeah.

01:12:01   I want this.

01:12:02   I want all of this.

01:12:03   I do too.

01:12:04   Because we all make it work with the Mac, right?

01:12:06   Like we just make it work and it's fine and you don't have to do any of it and you won't

01:12:11   have to do any of it.

01:12:12   Like imagine if the Mac App Store was really good and had everything in it, right?

01:12:17   It would make everybody's lives easier.

01:12:19   And so this would be like that, where like all of the apps you want, they're going to

01:12:22   be in the App Store and you never have to do anything weird.

01:12:26   But if you're like us, you can go and download the blank store and you can go and sideload

01:12:32   this weird app that like adds a bunch of hacks to shortcuts.

01:12:37   You can just do that because you want to and you're going to have a great time.

01:12:41   So I want this, I'm into it.

01:12:45   And do you know what?

01:12:45   I really hope that like,

01:12:47   again, in the piece from Mark Gurman,

01:12:50   I thought it was really interesting saying like,

01:12:51   there are a bunch of Apple employees that are like

01:12:53   really mad that they're having to work on this

01:12:55   'cause they feel like it's a distraction.

01:12:57   You know, I kind of understand that to a point

01:12:59   of like you're working on a thing and then like,

01:13:00   oh, this is legislation and da, da, da.

01:13:03   But I really hope that people can like take a step back

01:13:06   and realize that this needs to happen.

01:13:09   Like this has to happen

01:13:10   because the monopoly is way too strong.

01:13:13   Of things like, if you don't hear that idea

01:13:18   of Apple demanding audits of people's transactions

01:13:21   so they can make sure they get,

01:13:22   none of this stuff should be happening.

01:13:24   It's all gone too far.

01:13:26   I hope that we get over this hump of them doing it

01:13:28   and then Apple embrace this and use this as a way

01:13:31   to continue making the platform even better.

01:13:34   That the competition is good for them and/or they make it

01:13:38   so it's really easy for people that care

01:13:39   to do fun stuff like they allow on the Mac

01:13:42   and they continue to make tools that people can use

01:13:46   whether they distribute inside or outside the app store

01:13:49   or maybe they're different

01:13:50   and that they really use this as a way

01:13:52   to further this platform.

01:13:54   Just I hope that there will be enough people

01:13:57   inside of the company that take this as an opportunity

01:14:00   to pick up a ball and run with it

01:14:02   rather than just feel like their heels

01:14:04   are being dragged through.

01:14:05   - Yeah, if they do it, they should own it

01:14:07   and they should make it real high quality.

01:14:10   You know, they should make the polished,

01:14:13   Apple-like iPhone version of what the concept

01:14:18   of installing apps from different sources is.

01:14:20   Like, don't make, basically what I think

01:14:23   we are asking for here is don't make us feel bad

01:14:26   for enabling this.

01:14:28   What if they bring over the DMG,

01:14:31   like mount it on the desktop and drag the app over

01:14:34   from the Mac? You have to drag and drop it.

01:14:35   (laughing)

01:14:36   and then eject it every time you're done.

01:14:39   It's like, we fixed this.

01:14:40   - To be fair, we thought,

01:14:43   go back a couple of years ago,

01:14:45   and we thought, oh, Apple is never gonna let you set

01:14:47   a default web browser, like a different default browser.

01:14:50   And they did it, and it's pretty elegant.

01:14:52   I mean, sure, you gotta go into settings,

01:14:54   but hey, you have a proper settings screen,

01:14:56   and every link redirects to the different browser,

01:14:59   and there's a menu that shows you

01:15:01   all the options that you have.

01:15:02   It's fine.

01:15:04   It's pretty nicely presented.

01:15:06   So it's not like you gotta open a JSON configuration file

01:15:11   and hack something yourself.

01:15:13   No, it's got a UI, it's nice, it's pretty easy to do.

01:15:17   I hope the same will be true for installing apps

01:15:20   from different sources, and maybe there'll be a menu

01:15:22   that shows you, here's the sources you have apps from.

01:15:26   Like, it can be done nicely.

01:15:29   And by German's report, it sounds like

01:15:31   this is a company-wide effort.

01:15:33   It also sounds like some engineers don't wanna do it,

01:15:36   and they think it's a waste of time,

01:15:38   which it's fun to get that perspective.

01:15:42   Like, why do you think it's a waste of time?

01:15:44   But you gotta believe that there are some people

01:15:47   inside Apple who are like, no,

01:15:48   our users should always install apps from us

01:15:53   and not anybody else, which I understand, but still,

01:15:57   it's, you know, this is the world we live in now.

01:16:00   Competition is good, it turns out.

01:16:02   - And that idea of embracing it fully

01:16:04   is why I hope that they do just do the whole do the damn thing, right?

01:16:08   So like it's the big WWDC feature, because if they do that, they're not just

01:16:13   going to make it Europe only, right?

01:16:14   If they're going to make it like a big part of WWDC and like, this is

01:16:17   what I'm hoping they're going to do.

01:16:18   If they'll do it, I don't know, but I'm trying to put that energy out there.

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01:18:29   Show and relay FM. All right. So speaking about owning things

01:18:33   Mm-hmm. We should own the weirdness of this episode. Okay

01:18:37   the two things are happening today one Federico had a

01:18:41   Hard out time which we have now surpassed that time. Yes, so Federico has run away forever

01:18:49   Goodbye, Federica.

01:18:50   Forever.

01:18:51   I didn't mean that.

01:18:52   He's just gone for this episode.

01:18:54   He'll be back next time, probably.

01:18:56   Who knows?

01:18:57   Maybe there'll be snakes in the internet.

01:18:58   Who knows?

01:18:59   But maybe he'll be back.

01:19:00   Yeah, he should be back.

01:19:01   I've taken this down a weirder route than it was meant to.

01:19:05   He's just gone now, alright?

01:19:07   He's just gone.

01:19:08   Don't worry about it.

01:19:09   He had to leave.

01:19:10   The pro show today was way longer than we thought it was going to be, and we liked it,

01:19:14   and we were talking about something that's probably important, and we should probably

01:19:17   address it right which is our stance on Twitter as you've heard so we decided

01:19:20   that the pro show is available for everyone but we're gonna do the pre-show

01:19:25   of the pro show but we're gonna do a pro post show as well if you enjoyed the vibe

01:19:31   of the pro show they're like that a lot it's like more relaxed it's it can be a

01:19:36   different kind of topic you should sign up for connected pro and this is the

01:19:39   final call you've got just what how many more days is it three days when this is

01:19:44   So on the 19th, right, so up until the 19th of December...

01:19:48   17th, today's the 14th. You have done such a bad job of this.

01:19:52   Why don't you take over then, Mr. Goodjob?

01:19:54   Federico had to leave.

01:19:56   The pro-show, what we thought was going to be the pro-show, we put in the main show for everybody.

01:20:02   So there's going to be a post-show for members this week.

01:20:04   If you like that, go to GiveRelay.com between now and December 17th.

01:20:09   Three days from now, you can get 20% off an annual membership.

01:20:13   But it's also going to be a post show, which you'll only get if you do that.

01:20:16   If you remember.

01:20:17   So should we do follow up now?

01:20:20   iPhone Emergency SOS is now available in more countries,

01:20:24   United Kingdom, France, Germany and Ireland.

01:20:28   Michael, will you be testing this by crashing a car?

01:20:31   Wait, why have I got to crash a car for?

01:20:33   I don't know.

01:20:34   Just you can't fake an emergency.

01:20:36   It's got to be a real emergency.

01:20:37   I don't want to test car crash detection as well as.

01:20:40   Oh, yes. Right.

01:20:41   Those are two different things. Yeah.

01:20:42   - So you're gonna-- - Oh, great job, Steven.

01:20:44   - Are you gonna test it by wandering off into the woods?

01:20:47   - No, I just did the test thing.

01:20:49   - Did you, how was it?

01:20:50   Cool, huh?

01:20:51   - I did it when I was in the studio

01:20:52   and I couldn't find a satellite.

01:20:53   - You gotta be outside.

01:20:55   - But I at least got the UI, like whatever.

01:20:58   Like the moving around, it's like,

01:20:59   "Hey, we found the satellite."

01:21:01   And they're like, "I'll go outside."

01:21:02   And I'm like, "I don't wanna go outside."

01:21:03   So I didn't go outside, so I only tested half of it.

01:21:05   But I feel like I got enough, right,

01:21:07   to like, I just wanted to see what the UI looked like

01:21:09   for detecting the satellite.

01:21:11   and I got that far.

01:21:13   And so it was pretty cool.

01:21:14   Like I thought it was really interesting.

01:21:17   I'm happy that it's there.

01:21:19   This is not a thing that I will subscribe to

01:21:21   when I need to subscribe to it, right?

01:21:23   I think it just, it's not a thing for me,

01:21:25   but it's a cool feature that exists.

01:21:27   - There was a story a couple of weeks ago.

01:21:29   I don't remember if we talked about it or not,

01:21:31   but it was like the first example of someone being saved

01:21:34   by iPhone emergency SOS.

01:21:36   - Yeah.

01:21:37   I mean, it was gonna happen, right?

01:21:38   Like we already unfortunately

01:21:41   had the people who, they're like people who died, but the car crash detection

01:21:45   thing went off for them, which was really sad. And so this was inevitable that it was going to

01:21:49   happen at some point. So it happened in Alaska, which that makes sense.

01:21:54   Yeah. Yeah, you get lost in the great white north, then maybe Canada. Actually, now that I think about it.

01:22:01   Also in follow-up, you have continued to use Spark. You spoke a while back about

01:22:07   some of the changes to it and how you felt about those.

01:22:09   How is it going a month or two later?

01:22:13   - Well, okay, so a couple of things have happened.

01:22:15   I've gotten more used to it and they've made improvements.

01:22:17   So really the only big work that's, well not really,

01:22:22   most of the work that has been needed

01:22:24   to make Spark work better has been on their Mac app.

01:22:27   I mentioned they made changes to their iPhone app

01:22:30   and there are still a bunch of things I don't like about it

01:22:32   but mostly it's just like the approach and language stuff.

01:22:35   Like I still have not used to done phrase instead of archive,

01:22:39   like it still annoys me.

01:22:41   But overall, some of the new features

01:22:43   are working for me pretty well.

01:22:44   So they've added in on the Mac app

01:22:46   a dark mode, printing support, and a sidebar.

01:22:49   Very happy for that.

01:22:50   Still want a column view.

01:22:52   Then they say that they're working on it.

01:22:56   The two features that they added that I'm enjoying

01:23:00   is their sender blocking and the automatic sorting of email.

01:23:04   So the sender blocking feature is like someone pops into my inbox, I can block them and never

01:23:08   hear from them again. I like this and the email sorting is also good. And what I like about it is

01:23:13   it's working across all of my email accounts no matter what service they are or service they're

01:23:20   not. So I like that it's doing this and it just it's you know it is a true unified inbox in that

01:23:25   sense. So that is pretty cool like and all of that stuff is is working pretty well for me.

01:23:31   I remain pretty intrigued to see if or how the iPhone app will change.

01:23:37   The Mac app has a very different design now and is built on different web technologies.

01:23:43   It's built on Electron.

01:23:45   They haven't done any of this to the iPhone app.

01:23:48   They've just made some changes to make the new features work and I assume at some point

01:23:53   that they're going to randomly drop a Spark 3 for the iPhone like they did for the Mac.

01:23:57   It just appears one day.

01:24:00   I'm intrigued to see what that will look like.

01:24:03   But, you know, basically where I am now is things,

01:24:07   the same things that annoyed me about the app

01:24:09   when I spoke about it first still do,

01:24:12   but I have come to value the features that they've added.

01:24:16   I just -- So, really, I stick by my initial things.

01:24:19   I wish they could have just added these features

01:24:22   without needing to get all high and mighty

01:24:24   about how to do your e-mail, right?

01:24:27   And also, I wished that they would have waited

01:24:29   until the Mac app was ready before they did all of this stuff because I mean it's still not ready

01:24:36   like it crashes on me a lot so it's very good that it saves drafts pretty well you know it crashes on

01:24:43   me a lot but they're adding in the features that I want but again they're features that should have

01:24:50   always been there yeah yeah the the mismatch of those versions really blows my mind yeah it's

01:24:57   very strange. It is very, very strange. I mean, you want your life coaching in your

01:25:02   email app on all your devices, you know? That's true. That's true. Give me give me

01:25:06   those inspirational quotes. The last bit of follow-up I have broke as we were

01:25:11   recording in the Discord for Relay FM members. So Jamie Bloomberg is working on

01:25:18   a project called the Passionate App and you can go check it out on GitHub and it

01:25:25   It is built in Swift Playgrounds using the Rickies.net API, which we talked about a few

01:25:31   weeks ago that Jason's been working on.

01:25:34   And you'll be able to get all of your Rickies and annual picks and everything all in an

01:25:42   app, hopefully in the future.

01:25:43   So I'm going to check this out after the show.

01:25:44   I didn't want to download it when we're recording, but I'm very excited about this.

01:25:48   So that's coming up soon, right?

01:25:50   The Annies?

01:25:51   well so the annies are the annual review oh yeah the annies is the is the review

01:26:00   of the year that is also coming up though that is coming up and then also

01:26:04   the annual picks are coming up right yes both things okay it's a busy time

01:26:09   between now and the end of the year mm-hmm but this is gonna be cool so I'm

01:26:14   gonna be keeping down this and excited to see where it goes mm-hmm so I think

01:26:18   I think that does it for the regular episode this week.

01:26:22   Again, we hope you enjoyed what was going to be the pro show.

01:26:26   We put that in first for everybody.

01:26:29   So if you want to hear more about that

01:26:31   or that type of thing, giverelay.com,

01:26:34   that sale runs through the end of the week.

01:26:35   - You did do a good job there.

01:26:37   That was a bad job.

01:26:38   - I mean, do you want to do it this time?

01:26:40   - You brought this energy.

01:26:41   You brought this energy.

01:26:42   You know what I mean?

01:26:43   I was just trying my best

01:26:45   and then you started criticizing me in front of everyone.

01:26:48   You know?

01:26:49   So now I'm doing it back.

01:26:51   This is where we are.

01:26:52   Yes.

01:26:53   If you are a member though, we're going to do a post-show just for you.

01:26:56   In the meantime, if you want to find links to stuff we spoke about, head on over to the

01:26:59   website at relay.fm/connected/428.

01:27:04   While you're there, you can send us feedback via email.

01:27:07   And again, you can become a member, giverelay.com between now and the 17th.

01:27:12   The annual plan is 20% off.

01:27:15   I'd like our sponsors this week.

01:27:17   They are Trade Coffee, Capital One, and Bombas.

01:27:21   And until next time, Myke, say goodbye.

01:27:24   - Cheerio.