Connected

00:00:00 ◼   ► Hello there. What you're getting ready to hear was supposed to be the members section

00:00:05 ◼   ► of the show this week, but we were really happy with the conversation, so we decided

00:00:10 ◼   ► to put it in the main public episode as well. Thanks. So Myke, you are now #NoTwitter. How's

00:00:18 ◼   ► that going? What led to this? I mean, what's my--

00:00:22 ◼   ► I mean, do you need to ask?

00:00:25 ◼   ► Let me rephrase that. There have been a few things going on with Twitter.

00:00:29 ◼   ► you... what was the final straw? I've been wanting to leave Twitter for like three

00:00:37 ◼   ► years but just haven't been able to do it, right? Because it's kind of like, "Oh, am I

00:00:43 ◼   ► missing too much? Will I be able to do it? Or my friends will still..." whatever, you know, like

00:00:50 ◼   ► those kinds of things. But it's just like ultimately hasn't been a net positive in

00:00:55 ◼   ► my life for a long time. It's just there are good things about it but there is a

00:01:00 ◼   ► combination of like lots of people being angry all the time about everything

00:01:05 ◼   ► including things that I do care about and things like I really don't care

00:01:09 ◼   ► about but now I've taken on the anger you know and also like can be a pretty

00:01:14 ◼   ► negative place at times I don't really feel like I can contribute to Twitter

00:01:18 ◼   ► the way that I used to you know like you guys go through this. Federico I think

00:01:23 ◼   ► embraces it but it's like any tweet that I send like yeah that could be the rest

00:01:29 ◼   ► of my day oh yeah and so like and it's literally anything right like anything

00:01:35 ◼   ► of any kind of value to anyone well it would just take over my day and like but

00:01:40 ◼   ► you know you can I think like for you too it makes more sense than it does for

00:01:46 ◼   ► me right so like one of the things that led to me doing this it was Casey

00:01:50 ◼   ► Newton's awesome essay in platformer yeah where he was talking about why he

00:01:55 ◼   ► is is kind of like stepping back from Twitter except for just like publishing

00:02:00 ◼   ► links and one of the things he said which I definitely works for you too I

00:02:05 ◼   ► think Federico you do this more is like I can post funny things or interesting

00:02:10 ◼   ► observations on Twitter it grows my audience and then I can share the links

00:02:14 ◼   ► to my articles and then people read them right that's just not a thing for me

00:02:19 ◼   ► Like, I don't believe at this point in my career, like, me posting like, "Hey, check

00:02:25 ◼   ► out this podcast!"

00:02:26 ◼   ► And like, it's just like enough people are gonna go listen to it.

00:02:28 ◼   ► Like, I just don't really think that happens for me anymore.

00:02:32 ◼   ► They're like, "Yeah, we got it.

00:02:33 ◼   ► Yeah, we got it, Myke.

00:02:34 ◼   ► You host some podcasts."

00:02:36 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:02:37 ◼   ► But the way you said it is funny.

00:02:40 ◼   ► I mean, you can, but you can share those links.

00:02:43 ◼   ► can post like a link to an article with a screenshot that has an excerpt right?

00:02:49 ◼   ► Yes, yes.

00:02:50 ◼   ► I wish I could post an excerpt but like I don't really think at this point that I can

00:02:55 ◼   ► have much of a meaningful impact on my work by posting tweets anymore right?

00:03:01 ◼   ► So all that kind of stuff has been going on with me for years plus it just like not really

00:03:06 ◼   ► being a fun place in a bunch of ways and now it's kind of like a combination of a lot of

00:03:12 ◼   ► people that I like to follow are leaving Twitter, a lot of people whose opinions I respect are

00:03:19 ◼   ► leaving Twitter, and it just keeps bubbling around in my brain. And the service is just

00:03:25 ◼   ► going in ways that just doesn't make sense to me, or it's just really annoying to me,

00:03:32 ◼   ► or just fundamentally opposed to what I fundamentally believe in, right? And so I'm just like, whatever.

00:03:39 ◼   ► Like for me it's not the Elon thing specifically.

00:03:44 ◼   ► I understand that people are leaving Twitter because of what he's saying.

00:03:47 ◼   ► I think a lot of the things he's saying is just stuff that he's saying to get people

00:03:53 ◼   ► to tweet at him.

00:03:54 ◼   ► I don't care what he believes, really.

00:03:56 ◼   ► It doesn't make a difference to me if he's a Republican or if he's a Democrat.

00:04:02 ◼   ► I don't care about that because people could be that stuff secretly and what difference

00:04:06 ◼   ► doesn't make, but it's the actions that they portray that bother me most and I

00:04:11 ◼   ► think his actions it's really bad and so I just you know that is like but it's

00:04:16 ◼   ► not the reason it's just a reason like all of these things together built up to

00:04:22 ◼   ► me wanting to leave like I don't really feel like I get as much out of it as I

00:04:25 ◼   ► used to I don't really feel like it's much of a benefit to me professionally

00:04:28 ◼   ► anymore plus the service is going in a bunch of terrible ways and the owner of

00:04:32 ◼   ► of the company I don't think is doing a very good job and isn't really somebody who I want

00:04:40 ◼   ► to support by, you know, like so like one of the things that annoys me right like and

00:04:45 ◼   ► look this is just me obviously if you're not in my situation maybe this isn't gonna annoy

00:04:49 ◼   ► you whatever right we are all people who are verified on Twitter right for whatever reasons

00:04:54 ◼   ► we were verified we were verified. Notable or not. Notable or not and like people like

00:05:02 ◼   ► to follow us on Twitter we will have pretty large followings right so like in

00:05:05 ◼   ► theory we are good for Twitter right because people want to follow us so they

00:05:10 ◼   ► go to Twitter to see what people have to say we're verified because and I think

00:05:15 ◼   ► that's important in a way to be like I am actually this person which is me

00:05:19 ◼   ► right and that's the same for you guys right we all have online businesses I

00:05:24 ◼   ► think it's important that if we're on a service like this and we're contributing

00:05:28 ◼   ► to it there is an importance in being like yes we're verified and I think that

00:05:31 ◼   ► That is a system that should be available to everyone

00:05:34 ◼   ► that you can actually verify yourself and whatever.

00:05:38 ◼   ► But the new verification system isn't that, right?

00:05:41 ◼   ► It's just like, give us some money and have a phone number.

00:05:44 ◼   ► They're gonna get rid of our verification

00:05:45 ◼   ► and he wants us to give him money to get it back.

00:05:48 ◼   ► And I'm not gonna do that.

00:05:50 ◼   ► I'm not doing that.

00:05:51 ◼   ► Because that's not the deal here, right?

00:05:54 ◼   ► Like you're not gonna extort me.

00:05:56 ◼   ► And so again, I have like a ton of reasons,

00:05:59 ◼   ► But ultimately, like, I don't really like Twitter,

00:06:03 ◼   ► and I was kind of just addicted to it.

00:06:05 ◼   ► So, it's time to get rid of it.

00:06:07 ◼   ► So, I'm gone, I'm done.

00:06:08 ◼   ► I've signed out everywhere, I'm done.

00:06:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, might as well be the time for me to share

00:06:13 ◼   ► that I think I'm doing the same.

00:06:16 ◼   ► Like I-

00:06:17 ◼   ► - Hell yeah, join the club, baby.

00:06:18 ◼   ► Come on, let's do it.

00:06:19 ◼   ► - But unlike you, I am going to use Mastodon,

00:06:24 ◼   ► which I think is not something you're interested in.

00:06:27 ◼   ► And I think it goes back to what you were saying.

00:06:29 ◼   ► I think it's really beneficial to the type of work that I do, you know, making text.

00:06:34 ◼   ► And I think text lends itself very well to screenshots, just sharing that.

00:06:38 ◼   ► So you're not even going to have like a bot if you do this?

00:06:40 ◼   ► Like, you know, like a bot that just posts to your account on Twitter?

00:06:44 ◼   ► See, the thing for me is, I really don't feel like I want to contribute anything,

00:06:51 ◼   ► not even my links to a platform, a service owned by someone who sympathizes with Nazis.

00:07:00 ◼   ► I really don't want to see this is where I'm at right now. I've been thinking about this

00:07:03 ◼   ► for the past few days. I haven't tweeted for the past few days. I've been talking about

00:07:08 ◼   ► it with John because it's obviously like also a decision that affects our business. And

00:07:12 ◼   ► we are working on some other things that should be done soon. But the thing is, I don't really

00:07:18 ◼   ► want to contribute content for free to this platform anymore. I am sorry if people who

00:07:24 ◼   ► disagree with me and are still using Twitter will be missing my tweets and my links and

00:07:29 ◼   ► my stuff. I'll be on other places. I have a site, I have a Mastodon account, I guess

00:07:35 ◼   ► I'll use Instagram more. There's ways, and we have Discord, right? There's ways for people

00:07:40 ◼   ► to get in touch with me and to follow me. But the thing is, I think it's gross to contribute

00:07:44 ◼   ► content to Twitter at the moment. And I think if anything, it's becoming a liability. At

00:07:51 ◼   ► least for me, you know, I don't want to take, I don't want to give him any more of my content,

00:07:57 ◼   ► any more of my typing characters in a text box every day. It's gross. And the tipping

00:08:04 ◼   ► point for me was like reinstating a bunch of accounts that I had no reason to be given

00:08:10 ◼   ► a platform on the modern web for common decency reasons.

00:08:18 ◼   ► Like I saw Kara Swisher saying about this, which is like she kind of turned my thinking

00:08:21 ◼   ► on it, of like, it's like he believes what he believes, whatever it is, we actually don't

00:08:26 ◼   ► know. But what he's going for is like Fox News. He's trying to turn to Twitter, Fox

00:08:30 ◼   ► News. He wants all these people on the platform to do this stuff, to rile everyone up all

00:08:35 ◼   ► the time because it's engagement. And like this is the thing that I've felt like Twitter,

00:08:40 ◼   ► algorithm has been doing for years, right, which is like, whether purposefully or not,

00:08:45 ◼   ► the more angry people are, the better it is for the service. And he knows this, and is

00:08:50 ◼   ► now trying to manufacture it as well. And it's like, this is the exact opposite of what

00:08:55 ◼   ► I want to be a part of.

00:08:57 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't want to be part of that. If anything, in modern years, you know me, we've

00:09:02 ◼   ► been talking about this. I've always have been and always will be a fan of the open

00:09:07 ◼   ► and web, there are elements of Mastodon that appeal to me, more so about the underlying

00:09:13 ◼   ► tech that the Mastodon service itself and the underlying tech activity pub and all that

00:09:18 ◼   ► kind of stuff, web push for notifications, like all of that are technologies that we

00:09:23 ◼   ► are looking into for the future of Mac stories. But really, I don't want to be part of that

00:09:28 ◼   ► platform anymore. And to all the people who are going to say, so what, you hate free speech?

00:09:33 ◼   ► Which is a silly question, but you know, let's play that argument out.

00:09:36 ◼   ► - You know what I mean?

00:09:37 ◼   ► If that's what it takes.

00:09:38 ◼   ► - You know, you see what the problem is.

00:09:40 ◼   ► Those people, they think that free speech

00:09:42 ◼   ► is like a one way street.

00:09:45 ◼   ► And the thing is free speech cuts both ways,

00:09:47 ◼   ► because yes, you are free and entitled to your opinions,

00:09:50 ◼   ► even though they are, you know,

00:09:52 ◼   ► there's a fine difference between an opinion

00:09:54 ◼   ► and something stupid that you can be, you know,

00:09:57 ◼   ► prosecuted for, but that's a different conversation.

00:10:00 ◼   ► You are entitled to share those things

00:10:02 ◼   ► because of free speech.

00:10:03 ◼   ► I am a free speech person.

00:10:05 ◼   ► free speech, I am entitled to not listen to you, and that's free speech. Freedom of speech is not

00:10:11 ◼   ► freedom of consequences. Yes. If you say something or do something or enact a policy if you're

00:10:18 ◼   ► if you're running a social network that has consequences, like that's those are two different

00:10:22 ◼   ► things. So anyways, I don't want to get like too like freshman college dorm room philosophical

00:10:28 ◼   ► about that, but I do want to talk a little bit about sort of the logistics of it. So what I've

00:10:34 ◼   ► What I'm doing right now, I pulled the plug about three weeks ago, is I'm still signed

00:10:40 ◼   ► in to-- You did this so long ago I'd forgotten.

00:10:42 ◼   ► Oh yeah, that guy.

00:10:45 ◼   ► I am still signed in to Tweetbot with my show accounts and the network account so I can

00:10:51 ◼   ► check our mentions.

00:10:52 ◼   ► I think I will continue to do that for a while because our audience is still there, at least

00:10:57 ◼   ► some of them are.

00:10:59 ◼   ► Although I opened Tweetbot on my laptop, actually last night for preparation of the show.

00:11:04 ◼   ► The night before the show, I go through our mentions

00:11:06 ◼   ► and see if there's any follow-up or feedback I wanna grab.

00:11:08 ◼   ► And that was still assigned into my personal account.

00:11:11 ◼   ► It's the first time I've seen my timeline in a while,

00:11:14 ◼   ► and I was shocked at how quiet it was.

00:11:16 ◼   ► There were big gaps in time that used to never be there.

00:11:19 ◼   ► I don't even follow that many people.

00:11:21 ◼   ► It's about 500 people compared to some

00:11:24 ◼   ► who follow thousands.

00:11:25 ◼   ► And it was sort of surprising to see how quiet it was.

00:11:30 ◼   ► But I'm curious, you guys leaving,

00:11:33 ◼   ► it is still partially like a business thing.

00:11:36 ◼   ► I mean, Federico, you said you may not even

00:11:38 ◼   ► put your links there anymore.

00:11:39 ◼   ► Like what are y'all's plans?

00:11:41 ◼   ► And I reserve the right, obviously,

00:11:43 ◼   ► we all do that this could change,

00:11:45 ◼   ► but how are you thinking about that right now

00:11:47 ◼   ► in terms of balancing personal use

00:11:49 ◼   ► and like what the shows need?

00:11:51 ◼   ► - I think for now,

00:11:53 ◼   ► I'm pulling the plug on everything on my account.

00:11:56 ◼   ► And I think we're still deciding what we wanna do

00:11:59 ◼   ► in terms of the bot that automatically pushes

00:12:02 ◼   ► our new posts from MacStories.net to the Twitter account for MacStories.

00:12:10 ◼   ► We're still deciding what to do there, but otherwise we are going all in on Mastodon

00:12:14 ◼   ► for now, and we're setting up a few things to...

00:12:18 ◼   ► You know me, I like to control my stuff, and it's not ready yet, but you'll see.

00:12:23 ◼   ► But yes, we are going all in on that.

00:12:25 ◼   ► In the meantime, just because I fundamentally believe in the format, I think it's useful

00:12:29 ◼   ► for us to have this type of platform, right,

00:12:33 ◼   ► where you can post status updates and people can reply

00:12:37 ◼   ► and can bookmark them and can click links.

00:12:39 ◼   ► I think it's useful for us.

00:12:41 ◼   ► And otherwise, nothing else really.

00:12:45 ◼   ► We're gonna use, we have RSS, we have Discord,

00:12:47 ◼   ► we're gonna use Mastodon.

00:12:49 ◼   ► We're getting great engagement there.

00:12:50 ◼   ► Like this is why I started this experiment a few weeks back

00:12:53 ◼   ► and I have noticed, especially in the past couple of weeks,

00:12:57 ◼   ► that I'm getting a lot more just conversations going

00:13:00 ◼   ► and interactions on Mastodon than on Twitter.

00:13:03 ◼   ► And that's because our community, I think,

00:13:05 ◼   ► has progressively moved from Twitter

00:13:07 ◼   ► to other instances on Mastodon.

00:13:10 ◼   ► I don't know if it's necessarily the future.

00:13:14 ◼   ► Maybe for what we do,

00:13:15 ◼   ► definitely not for the public at large.

00:13:18 ◼   ► I think we're gonna get a,

00:13:21 ◼   ► it's gonna be weird for a couple of years

00:13:23 ◼   ► in terms of like what's the next Twitter,

00:13:26 ◼   ► Assuming that things continue to evolve down this path for Twitter, it's too soon to tell

00:13:33 ◼   ► at the moment.

00:13:34 ◼   ► Like, will we ever come back to Twitter if, say, Twitter changes hands?

00:13:38 ◼   ► Let's say that Automattic acquires Twitter because Elon gets bored and he's like, "Well,

00:13:42 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:13:43 ◼   ► I want to sell it now."

00:13:44 ◼   ► And a really reputable company acquires Twitter and is committed to making Twitter healthy

00:13:50 ◼   ► again.

00:13:51 ◼   ► I don't know what can happen.

00:13:53 ◼   ► I cannot make predictions, which is why I'm not deleting my account.

00:13:57 ◼   ► But yeah, in the meantime, you will not find us there.

00:14:01 ◼   ► And if you want to find us someplace else, subscribe to RSS or find us on Mastodon.

00:14:06 ◼   ► That's the strategy.

00:14:09 ◼   ► I would prefer to just not look at all.

00:14:12 ◼   ► I'm going to, for the time being, check some stuff, maybe for, like you say,

00:14:17 ◼   ► a check show accounts or whatever.

00:14:19 ◼   ► But it's easy to get sucked in.

00:14:21 ◼   ► I, we're hopefully, we're trying also to work on something to collect short follow-up in a new way

00:14:29 ◼   ► and I think maybe the only account that I will post anything from is the Cortex account like when

00:14:34 ◼   ► there's new episodes. I don't know if I might just set up a bot to do that. I'm gonna, all my show

00:14:40 ◼   ► accounts that have like bots that post them and just gonna keep those going. I think Jason will

00:14:45 ◼   ► probably keep tweeting from the upgrade account because he's been doing that now since he took

00:14:49 ◼   ► took over the posting of the show.

00:14:52 ◼   ► So, I don't have a big plan there.

00:14:56 ◼   ► To be honest, I hadn't even really thought about

00:14:58 ◼   ► checking for follow-up on Twitter.

00:15:00 ◼   ► I guess I probably might wanna do that.

00:15:03 ◼   ► To be honest, we get a lot of it in the Discord now,

00:15:05 ◼   ► which is great, and we're working on ways

00:15:07 ◼   ► to try and make more free and open, easy ways

00:15:11 ◼   ► to send us short stuff.

00:15:13 ◼   ► 'Cause what I don't want is 100 emails a week now

00:15:16 ◼   ► from a follow-up.

00:15:18 ◼   ► I don't want that.

00:15:18 ◼   ► That'd be a much, that'd be a terrible impact on my life.

00:15:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, we're looking at some ways on the website

00:15:25 ◼   ► to make basically private comments on,

00:15:28 ◼   ► that you can tie to an episode.

00:15:30 ◼   ► So you hit a button, fill out a little form, we get it,

00:15:32 ◼   ► and then can deal with it as regular feedback.

00:15:35 ◼   ► So for me, like my shows, "5/12," "Relay,"

00:15:40 ◼   ► they're all still basically auto-tweeting.

00:15:42 ◼   ► I also set up "Relay" and "5/12" on Mastodon

00:15:46 ◼   ► through Zapier, there's not a lot of great integrations

00:15:49 ◼   ► into Macedon currently.

00:15:51 ◼   ► You can use webhooks, so I just wrote a little thing,

00:15:53 ◼   ► like look at the RSS feed

00:15:54 ◼   ► and then post the title and the link.

00:15:56 ◼   ► I've got a personal Macedon account

00:15:59 ◼   ► and I've poked at it a couple of times

00:16:01 ◼   ► and I don't think I'm gonna be using it very much.

00:16:05 ◼   ► I could see it using for like

00:16:07 ◼   ► a couple of big announcements a year,

00:16:08 ◼   ► like, hey, I have a Kickstarter

00:16:10 ◼   ► or the St. Jude fundraiser is starting,

00:16:13 ◼   ► but in terms of day to day,

00:16:15 ◼   ► Like the only things I'm signed into in the ivory beta are 512 and relay again

00:16:20 ◼   ► Just so I can check the mentions and see if you know

00:16:23 ◼   ► We have a typo or there's some sort of problem or or that sort of thing. I do not plan on bringing my shows

00:16:29 ◼   ► Over to have like individual Mastodon accounts. I think that day is this not not going that only that's gonna happen

00:16:36 ◼   ► I don't think it makes much sense. But

00:16:38 ◼   ► my overall feeling is that

00:16:42 ◼   ► my days on like social media are basically over like I've

00:16:46 ◼   ► Done this with Twitter. I still have my account for the same reason Federico does like I'm not gonna close it down

00:16:51 ◼   ► But it's just gonna be there

00:16:54 ◼   ► I deleted all the tweets and just have two tweets explaining that why I'm not there, you know that I'm not there anymore and then

00:16:59 ◼   ► that's that's about it and

00:17:02 ◼   ► The last few weeks without it have been both a lot harder than I expected

00:17:07 ◼   ► But also a lot better

00:17:10 ◼   ► I don't, the first couple of days were really weird.

00:17:13 ◼   ► I, like a lot of people, use Twitter

00:17:15 ◼   ► to fill in the little gaps, you know, in my days.

00:17:20 ◼   ► And without it, it feels a bit weird,

00:17:22 ◼   ► but now a few weeks into it,

00:17:23 ◼   ► I'm really at a point where I honestly don't miss it.

00:17:27 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah.

00:17:28 ◼   ► I think we are, I think in conclusion,

00:17:30 ◼   ► we can say that we are fortunate enough

00:17:33 ◼   ► to be able to say that if you are part of the audience,

00:17:36 ◼   ► you can find us where we work.

00:17:40 ◼   ► Like the work is where you can find us.

00:17:43 ◼   ► - I was pretty proud of my tweet, by the way.

00:17:45 ◼   ► The main reason I did it yesterday is I had like the tweet,

00:17:48 ◼   ► they end up the tweet with me,

00:17:49 ◼   ► like just saying like, I'm gone now is,

00:17:51 ◼   ► you can find me wherever you find your podcasts, like,

00:17:54 ◼   ► which is that line that's used forever.

00:17:55 ◼   ► And that's true, but like that is part of it for me, right?

00:17:58 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:17:59 ◼   ► - 'Cause I noticed this for a long time.

00:18:00 ◼   ► If I say, hey, I've got this thing,

00:18:02 ◼   ► come check it out and put it on Twitter

00:18:04 ◼   ► and I get a response, you know,

00:18:05 ◼   ► but if I talk about it on a show, it's much larger,

00:18:08 ◼   ► because this is where my audience is.

00:18:10 ◼   ► They listen to my shows.

00:18:12 ◼   ► So why do I, I don't wanna keep wasting my time anymore

00:18:17 ◼   ► on something that I don't enjoy,

00:18:20 ◼   ► and that I don't even think I can give people

00:18:23 ◼   ► a benefit for anymore.

00:18:25 ◼   ► There isn't any benefit to following me on Twitter.

00:18:26 ◼   ► You don't get anything from me.

00:18:29 ◼   ► So just listen to my shows instead,

00:18:31 ◼   ► and that's the best you're gonna get.

00:18:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, and we're way past the point

00:18:35 ◼   ► in sort of our collective careers,

00:18:37 ◼   ► because I mean, our careers are all

00:18:40 ◼   ► intimately linked with each other.

00:18:41 ◼   ► We're at a point now where like those early relationships,

00:18:45 ◼   ► like those early things that honestly we've benefited

00:18:49 ◼   ► from being kind of the right time at the right place,

00:18:51 ◼   ► like that's completely gone from Twitter.

00:18:54 ◼   ► And it's actually been gone for a long time,

00:18:56 ◼   ► but now it's very evident and visible that it's gone.

00:19:01 ◼   ► I think I'll just speak for me.

00:19:03 ◼   ► I think I've been in denial about this day of Twitter,

00:19:05 ◼   ► probably for years, probably since 2016 or so.

00:19:09 ◼   ► And it's been just the avalanche of disasters

00:19:14 ◼   ► that have struck it since Elon bought it

00:19:18 ◼   ► that sort of sealed it for me.

00:19:19 ◼   ► But I think if I was really honest,

00:19:22 ◼   ► this has been something that I've needed to do

00:19:24 ◼   ► for a long time.

00:19:26 ◼   ► And I get it, like, it's not,

00:19:29 ◼   ► everyone's different on this, right?

00:19:30 ◼   ► Like we talked about it on an MPU that comes out on Sunday,

00:19:33 ◼   ► And like, we all have different emotions

00:19:35 ◼   ► about these websites and that's fine.

00:19:38 ◼   ► Like if you're, if you wanna stay,

00:19:40 ◼   ► like I'm not here to pass judgment on you,

00:19:42 ◼   ► hopefully you're not passing judgment on us for leaving.

00:19:44 ◼   ► Like I know for a lot of people,

00:19:46 ◼   ► Twitter is to them what it used to be to us.

00:19:50 ◼   ► Like it's a place to have your work discovered

00:19:52 ◼   ► and hear diverse voices and have your voice be heard.

00:19:56 ◼   ► Like I get all that and all that stuff is good and important

00:19:59 ◼   ► but just for where I think we are as individuals,

00:20:02 ◼   ► it doesn't make sense anymore.

00:20:03 ◼   ► And I would just hope for some like grace and all of that

00:20:06 ◼   ► is 'cause we all have to figure this out

00:20:08 ◼   ► because it's been a big part of our lives

00:20:10 ◼   ► all for a long time.

00:20:11 ◼   ► - I mean, you know, like one of the things

00:20:13 ◼   ► that's complicated for me emotionally

00:20:15 ◼   ► is I genuinely owe my entire career to Twitter.

00:20:18 ◼   ► Like the people that I met, like you guys

00:20:21 ◼   ► and being able to kind of get my work out back in the day

00:20:24 ◼   ► when like tech podcasting was new

00:20:26 ◼   ► and people would pay attention and that kind of stuff, right?

00:20:29 ◼   ► Like that like all this new podcasts

00:20:30 ◼   ► such and such persons on this show, and it helped me build up the network that I have now.

00:20:35 ◼   ► And so it's like a really weird thing to let go of it, but it just isn't for me the same anymore.

00:20:42 ◼   ► And you may be out there having the exact same experience, but it's just different for me.

00:20:47 ◼   ► As Steven said, we're all different people and we've come from different places.

00:20:50 ◼   ► And that's what I, it's a really great way of like, my thing about Mastodon, right?

00:20:55 ◼   ► Like I understand that people are having a great time on Mastodon right now,

00:20:59 ◼   ► I see like the spectrum and what you two are doing right where Steven you are gonna use it

00:21:03 ◼   ► Every now and again and Federico you want to go home on it like and I recommend people do whatever they want for me

00:21:09 ◼   ► Personally, like I just want to try to live a life where this kind of social media is completely 100% gone

00:21:16 ◼   ► Yeah, and see what that's like. So I have no intention of joining any service. Mm-hmm

00:21:21 ◼   ► I may in the future hell I might even come back to Twitter in a year. Like I don't know

00:21:26 ◼   ► I just know where I am right now, which is like, I don't want, I want to, I have lived since

00:21:32 ◼   ► 2014 or whatever, right? Like earlier than that, what, 2000, when did we join Twitter?

00:21:38 ◼   ► I joined in '07. So I joined in '07.

00:21:41 ◼   ► In '09 over here.

00:21:42 ◼   ► And I know I took it some time away. So let's say like the last 12 years

00:21:46 ◼   ► this has been a part of my life every single day and I want to try

00:21:52 ◼   ► Not that I see what that's about, you know

00:21:55 ◼   ► One I think element to that that's that's important is like is leaving the door open to the future

00:22:02 ◼   ► but the other thing that I think of it, I'm not trying to like

00:22:05 ◼   ► randomly bodies Mastodon parade here, but

00:22:08 ◼   ► Mastodon has the same inherent risks that

00:22:13 ◼   ► Twitter does the assets federated. So if like a server full of Nazis comes along you can just

00:22:19 ◼   ► de-federate them and they're gone.

00:22:21 ◼   ► But ultimately every single social media platform ends in this conversation we're having now. Because of the

00:22:29 ◼   ► business incentives of these companies,

00:22:32 ◼   ► they promote and craft their apps for engagement. And what that really means is

00:22:39 ◼   ► argument. I mean it is the reason none of us are on Facebook, right? Like

00:22:45 ◼   ► Facebook did this and you know, maybe potentially damaged democracy forever and

00:22:50 ◼   ► Twitter is

00:22:53 ◼   ► Has this alignment as well now?

00:22:55 ◼   ► With mastodon, you know, yeah, like you can be a patreon like back the server and stuff

00:23:00 ◼   ► But ultimately if it reaches a critical mass, which I would argue it has not

00:23:04 ◼   ► Then it is going to eventually have these issues and maybe it's not because it's ad-driven

00:23:11 ◼   ► maybe it's just because you have so many people there and

00:23:15 ◼   ► It's inevitable when you have that many people in a room that things will happen. I just I've been on the internet too long

00:23:22 ◼   ► to be super hopeful that Macedon can be like the one savior of social media and

00:23:28 ◼   ► Again, I'm not trying to anybody's parade. I'm just not very optimistic about it that it's going to be something that really

00:23:35 ◼   ► Takes off in a way and then doesn't lead to this down the road because it always leads to this down the road

00:23:43 ◼   ► Yeah, I feel like the technological aspect is interesting in that, like, as long as it's all open source,

00:23:52 ◼   ► it's like basically a different spin on RSS, which is why I think we are looking into it.

00:23:58 ◼   ► Not just in terms of like, oh, we really need to have a Twitter replacement, but because

00:24:03 ◼   ► the foundation behind it we can use in a bunch of different ways in the future.

00:24:08 ◼   ► I feel like it's fun to be on Mastodon itself right now because it's very reminiscent of early Twitter.

00:24:16 ◼   ► You know, when you have basically tech people be early adopters and it's fun to see like the

00:24:23 ◼   ► conversations right now about, you know, you join Mastodon and part of the conversation is about

00:24:29 ◼   ► Mastodon itself, which is really reminiscent of early days Twitter when everybody was talking

00:24:34 ◼   ► about, you know, I remember, for example, when Twitter launched native retweets, like

00:24:40 ◼   ► they didn't used to be a feature. And now, exactly. And now everybody like a bunch, not

00:24:47 ◼   ► everybody, but a lot of people that I follow on Mastodon are talking about whether or not

00:24:52 ◼   ► Mastodon should have quote posts, like you can quote tweet on Twitter. And there's like

00:24:58 ◼   ► this whole thing, this whole conversation about should we replicate the behavior and

00:25:02 ◼   ► the design of Twitter for quoting a post by somebody else

00:25:06 ◼   ► or not.

00:25:07 ◼   ► The entire scene is very reminiscent of that era

00:25:10 ◼   ► of 2010 Twitter.

00:25:12 ◼   ► Otherwise, I just feel like I want

00:25:16 ◼   ► to keep having this sort of avenue in terms of I

00:25:20 ◼   ► can have a stream of short posts where I can share quick things

00:25:26 ◼   ► about my work or a picture of something I'm listening to

00:25:30 ◼   ► or a photo of my dog or a stupid thing I just thought of.

00:25:34 ◼   ► I think for me, it's a fun thing to have in my life.

00:25:39 ◼   ► But given the kind of person I've become

00:25:43 ◼   ► and given my line of work,

00:25:45 ◼   ► I think it's actually preferable

00:25:46 ◼   ► if I use something like Mastodon where I own my content

00:25:49 ◼   ► and I can spin up my own server

00:25:51 ◼   ► and I fully control the thing with the technology

00:25:54 ◼   ► that in the future I can reuse to my advantage

00:25:57 ◼   ► in a future version of Mac Stories.

00:25:59 ◼   ► Essentially, and I mean, we've been talking about this

00:26:02 ◼   ► in the open, it's no secret.

00:26:04 ◼   ► I think one of the things we are considering

00:26:06 ◼   ► for the future of Max Stories is having the ability

00:26:11 ◼   ► to more quickly and easily share

00:26:16 ◼   ► a work-related short posts, you know?

00:26:20 ◼   ► That can be on my website,

00:26:23 ◼   ► but that can also be shared to other channels.

00:26:26 ◼   ► And right now, the design of Max Stories

00:26:28 ◼   ► doesn't really lend itself well to that type of status update.

00:26:32 ◼   ► I mean, I could write a post that it's like 50 words

00:26:37 ◼   ► and be like, iOS 17 beta 2 is out,

00:26:41 ◼   ► but it will look stupid on the front page.

00:26:43 ◼   ► Yeah, I've got the same problem.

00:26:44 ◼   ► Well, you and I have talked about this.

00:26:46 ◼   ► Like, 512's design also doesn't work for that.

00:26:49 ◼   ► We talked about this.

00:26:50 ◼   ► So what we're saying is the Verge was right.

00:26:52 ◼   ► Yes, actually.

00:26:53 ◼   ► I think their redesign is super smart.

00:26:55 ◼   ► I love their website so much.

00:26:57 ◼   ► and they would, they, I don't know how they did it,

00:27:00 ◼   ► but they hit on that short post thing.

00:27:03 ◼   ► Just like that story stream that they have.

00:27:05 ◼   ► - I disagree with the fact that they have comments on there.

00:27:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, but they're way bigger than we are.

00:27:11 ◼   ► - But good call, but good call on the short posts.

00:27:15 ◼   ► Like that's, you got to hand it to them.

00:27:19 ◼   ► It was a great idea.

00:27:20 ◼   ► Especially given how things have gone with Twitter.

00:27:24 ◼   ► So, and I think Nilay is also gone from Twitter, by the way.

00:27:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, he was one of the, it was like,

00:27:30 ◼   ► Nilay and Casey Newton both leave in on the same day.

00:27:34 ◼   ► It like really put something in my brain.

00:27:36 ◼   ► And I was just like, these are two people

00:27:38 ◼   ► who I really look up to and really respect.

00:27:41 ◼   ► And, you know, I've been following both

00:27:43 ◼   ► of their thought processes, like on the Vergecast

00:27:46 ◼   ► and in Platformer, and it was just like,

00:27:49 ◼   ► I kind of couldn't, I couldn't argue,

00:27:52 ◼   ► I cannot argue with any of the things that they're saying.

00:27:55 ◼   ► And so it's just like, if I can't make an argument,

00:27:57 ◼   ► then why am I still here?

00:28:00 ◼   ► I'm looking for cool RSS feeds.

00:28:03 ◼   ► If people have cool RSS feeds, send them to me.

00:28:06 ◼   ► How are you gonna send them to me?

00:28:07 ◼   ► Well, that's for you to work out.

00:28:09 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:28:09 ◼   ► - Very early 2000s energy from Myke over here.

00:28:14 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:28:15 ◼   ► - Looking for cool blogs.

00:28:16 ◼   ► - I really am looking for the cool blogs.

00:28:19 ◼   ► It's kind of funny really because a couple of episodes ago on Cortex,

00:28:24 ◼   ► Gray said this and I made fun of him.

00:28:26 ◼   ► You were making fun of Gray. You were making fun of him.

00:28:29 ◼   ► And now I now want the cool blogs.

00:28:33 ◼   ► I mean, because if you think about it really, Gray was ahead of all of us, right?

00:28:36 ◼   ► Well, he tends to be.

00:28:37 ◼   ► He embraced this a long time ago.

00:28:40 ◼   ► I want some cool blogs.

00:28:41 ◼   ► So if you can send me the cool blogs, because really it's like,

00:28:44 ◼   ► I need to make sure that I'm keeping up to date with tech news and Apple news and opinions

00:28:53 ◼   ► on it. The news part, following the news part, no problem, right? Mac stories, Mac rumors,

00:28:59 ◼   ► 9 to 5 Mac, I'm all good. I've got it covered. But what I'm not getting there or what I worry

00:29:04 ◼   ► I won't get there is the little interesting things that people say on Twitter. You know

00:29:08 ◼   ► what I mean? So I don't know if it's an issue for me to miss it. I don't know if I'm going

00:29:14 ◼   ► miss it, I'll find out. But, you know, if you've got the cool blogs, give me the cool blogs.

00:29:19 ◼   ► I should just export my things from Feedbin and just give it to you. I've been working on this.

00:29:25 ◼   ► Yes, both of you. If you could just maybe screenshot or just give me your OPML files,

00:29:32 ◼   ► that will be good.

00:29:33 ◼   ► I'm sending it to you right now because, incidentally, I just migrated from

00:29:37 ◼   ► Inoreader to Feedbin again last night, and I have my opml file right here.

00:29:44 ◼   ► Give me the opml files, although I'm worried that I'm accidentally going to add them in

00:29:48 ◼   ► to my feeds, but I can just deal with that.

00:29:50 ◼   ► I'm sending it here.

00:29:52 ◼   ► And then I can do whatever I want.

00:29:53 ◼   ► Okay, here you go.

00:29:54 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:29:55 ◼   ► Inoreader feeds there.

00:29:57 ◼   ► It's an XML file, but it's structured for what you need.

00:30:02 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:30:03 ◼   ► [MUSIC]

00:30:11 ◼   ► >> Oh, sorry, it was me.

00:30:12 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:30:13 ◼   ► >> Every time.

00:30:14 ◼   ► >> I'm never ready for this.

00:30:16 ◼   ► It happens like once every three weeks,

00:30:18 ◼   ► and I was away for a long time.

00:30:19 ◼   ► I don't know. All right.

00:30:20 ◼   ► From Relay FM, this is Connected Episode 428.

00:30:24 ◼   ► Today's show is brought to you by Trade Coffee,

00:30:26 ◼   ► Capital One, and Bombas.

00:30:28 ◼   ► My name is Myke Hurley,

00:30:29 ◼   ► and I'm joined by Federico Vittucci.

00:30:31 ◼   ► >> Hello, Myke. I can't, I know it's

00:30:32 ◼   ► really you if you're not on Twitter anymore.

00:30:35 ◼   ► It's a very good point.

00:30:36 ◼   ► It's a very good point.

00:30:37 ◼   ► Do I have to like, what is that thing?

00:30:39 ◼   ► Like that secret key thing?

00:30:42 ◼   ► How do you verify yourself on a podcast?

00:30:45 ◼   ► Because I think you can.

00:30:46 ◼   ► The AI's coming for us.

00:30:48 ◼   ► They're going to pretend to be me,

00:30:49 ◼   ► and then no one's ever going to know.

00:30:51 ◼   ► But you remember that thing?

00:30:52 ◼   ► People would be like, they post like a code in their bio,

00:30:56 ◼   ► and then that somehow verified them?

00:30:58 ◼   ► I need to do one of those.

00:31:00 ◼   ► Basically, at the start of every episode,

00:31:01 ◼   ► I'm going to give you half of an encryption key.

00:31:04 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:31:05 ◼   ► #CodeInBio.

00:31:06 ◼   ► You haven't been introduced yet.

00:31:07 ◼   ► Hold on, Steven.

00:31:08 ◼   ► You didn't.

00:31:09 ◼   ► Yeah, you got to wait.

00:31:10 ◼   ► So yeah, that's what I'm going to do now.

00:31:11 ◼   ► I'm going to give, at the beginning of every episode, I will start with a series of 16 numbers.

00:31:16 ◼   ► All the listeners will have the other 16 numbers and if they match, then it's me.

00:31:20 ◼   ► This is like when you send an email with that fancy system, like the PGP key.

00:31:24 ◼   ► What's it called?

00:31:25 ◼   ► Oh, PGP key.

00:31:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:31:27 ◼   ► It's like, yeah.

00:31:28 ◼   ► It's also my pleasure to introduce our other co-host, Mr. Steven Hackett.

00:31:32 ◼   ► Hello, Steven.

00:31:33 ◼   ► Hello, boys.

00:31:34 ◼   ► Yes.

00:31:35 ◼   ► Hi.

00:31:36 ◼   ► How are you?

00:31:37 ◼   ► I am good.

00:31:38 ◼   ► It's pouring down rain outside, which is... would be more fun, but it's rained every day

00:31:41 ◼   ► for the last, like, 10 days, and I'm kind of over it.

00:31:45 ◼   ► We have some real-time... is it follow-up?

00:31:50 ◼   ► How can we have real-time follow-up if we've just started the show?

00:31:54 ◼   ► What are we following up to?

00:31:56 ◼   ► Well, it's pre-follow-up in the sense that before we talk about the topic one that we

00:32:03 ◼   ► have in the document, which is about iOS 16.2. So this is like I am having a sort of a topic

00:32:11 ◼   ► preamble, essentially iOS 16.3 beta one is coming today.

00:32:16 ◼   ► Oh my God.

00:32:18 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:32:19 ◼   ► What?

00:32:20 ◼   ► Wow. 10 days before Christmas, Apple has no chill.

00:32:25 ◼   ► How could it have in it that it needs to be a whole new point release?

00:32:28 ◼   ► Stage Manager changes, baby!

00:32:30 ◼   ► No, I don't know.

00:32:31 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:32:32 ◼   ► Like, why can't it be 16.2.1?

00:32:34 ◼   ► Apple Music Classical!

00:32:36 ◼   ► Come on.

00:32:37 ◼   ► Oh, I guess it could.

00:32:38 ◼   ► I mean, it could.

00:32:39 ◼   ► I mean, it could.

00:32:40 ◼   ► Man, they just got to...

00:32:42 ◼   ► They're just doing so much over there.

00:32:44 ◼   ► So let's talk about 16.2, which is a huge release, right?

00:32:49 ◼   ► Like so much stuff in iOS 16.2.

00:32:52 ◼   ► I read your article, Federico, on Stage Manager.

00:32:56 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:32:57 ◼   ► It kind of feels like what I took away from it, high level,

00:33:00 ◼   ► is the concept of Stage Manager, good.

00:33:03 ◼   ► Implementation, still bad.

00:33:05 ◼   ► Yes, that's the takeaway from the story.

00:33:09 ◼   ► Yes, it's that.

00:33:11 ◼   ► I mean, Windows on an external display, great.

00:33:15 ◼   ► I'm using them right now.

00:33:16 ◼   ► I'm looking at them right now.

00:33:18 ◼   ► Great idea.

00:33:19 ◼   ► makes your iPad feel like a proper computer that you can now plug into a display and have

00:33:25 ◼   ► additional windows on the display. Implementation is still bad, and it's especially silly.

00:33:29 ◼   ► We were talking about the problems of Stage Manager before on the iPad's display,

00:33:36 ◼   ► and how Stage Manager sort of forces you to have these preset sizes and it rearranges windows for

00:33:42 ◼   ► you, and let me tell you, those choices are even more apparent when you plug it into a 5K display.

00:33:49 ◼   ► and you end up, like you have two windows on screen

00:33:53 ◼   ► and you want to place them for whatever reason,

00:33:56 ◼   ► because maybe you just like them

00:33:57 ◼   ► and you want to place one on the left

00:33:59 ◼   ► and one all the way to the right

00:34:00 ◼   ► and the stage manager doesn't let you,

00:34:03 ◼   ► well, that just feels silly

00:34:05 ◼   ► when you're using an external display.

00:34:07 ◼   ► - Because you have the space, right?

00:34:09 ◼   ► Like there's so much space,

00:34:10 ◼   ► you don't need the system to arrange it for you.

00:34:13 ◼   ► - Exactly, exactly.

00:34:14 ◼   ► And then there's also the performance issues,

00:34:19 ◼   ► Like, I have been using this setup for the past two weeks and I really love it ever since

00:34:23 ◼   ► I went all in with the Mac Mini and Universal Control.

00:34:28 ◼   ► I really love this system, but I've got to be honest, Stage Manager crashes at least

00:34:32 ◼   ► once a day on my iPad.

00:34:34 ◼   ► Like I'm doing something and at least once a day I see the black screen with the spinner

00:34:38 ◼   ► in the middle and everything resets.

00:34:41 ◼   ► Like, that still happens.

00:34:43 ◼   ► It appears that iOS 16.3 beta 1 is out, as I am talking right now.

00:34:50 ◼   ► But yeah, we'll see what Apple has in store for Stage Manager.

00:34:55 ◼   ► When it comes to external display integration, it's what we got this summer before it was

00:35:02 ◼   ► pulled, but now thankfully it's in much better shape than before.

00:35:08 ◼   ► crashing once a day or so for me. Earlier this year it used to crash like every 10 minutes

00:35:16 ◼   ► or so. So it's much better than that. If you tried it months ago and never tried it again,

00:35:22 ◼   ► do it. But otherwise, you know, don't expect major changes from Stage Manager yet.

00:35:32 ◼   ► Something that I took away from your article which really boggled my mind and like I think

00:35:37 ◼   ► I think I've understood it correctly from how you put it in the piece, is that there

00:35:43 ◼   ► is like a fundamental difference between the way it handles multiple screens to how a Mac

00:35:48 ◼   ► handles multiple screens.

00:35:50 ◼   ► So like, if you have the Notes app on the iPad screen and you have like Safari on the

00:35:58 ◼   ► external display and you go down to the dock and tap the Notes app icon, it puts the Notes

00:36:04 ◼   ► app on the external display, right?

00:36:07 ◼   ► Which like on the Mac if you have that it just makes the app active on the screen that it's on.

00:36:14 ◼   ► That is wild to me that it does that.

00:36:17 ◼   ► Here it moves it.

00:36:18 ◼   ► Yeah I find that wild because it's like what's the point in having the iPad?

00:36:23 ◼   ► Like why even have... why did they make it that you have to have the iPad screen open to use this

00:36:30 ◼   ► if they don't treat the iPad screen as a like the main screen?

00:36:35 ◼   ► It's like weird to me. It's very weird to me.

00:36:37 ◼   ► Yeah, well, they made this decision of the act of clicking an icon means making sure

00:36:46 ◼   ► that you see the app.

00:36:50 ◼   ► It's this very conscious decision that they made because it also works the same way for

00:36:54 ◼   ► Spotlight.

00:36:55 ◼   ► So if you open Spotlight on an external display and you select Notes, and Notes is actually

00:37:00 ◼   ► on the iPad, you're not going to activate it on the iPad, you're going to activate it

00:37:05 ◼   ► and move it to the external display. So like, I think the underlying design decision is

00:37:12 ◼   ► on iPadOS when you click an icon you need to see the app for it. It's different from

00:37:18 ◼   ► the Mac.

00:37:19 ◼   ► And they've chosen the external display as the primary display, right?

00:37:25 ◼   ► No, not always. What do you mean, primary?

00:37:27 ◼   ► Well like, if you click an icon, is it always going to move it to the external display?

00:37:32 ◼   ► No, it's always gonna move to the most recently act display you're on.

00:37:38 ◼   ► That's weird to me. That's very weird to me.

00:37:40 ◼   ► Display where the pointer is.

00:37:43 ◼   ► Sure, I see that, right? Like I see why you made that decision.

00:37:48 ◼   ► But I also don't know why, if the decision had already been made on the Mac,

00:37:53 ◼   ► like if this never existed, right?

00:37:56 ◼   ► Like if the Mac didn't exist, I would understand why you made this decision.

00:38:01 ◼   ► But it's weird to me that you make that decision knowing how the other system works and is fine.

00:38:08 ◼   ► Yeah, interesting. It's just an interesting thing.

00:38:10 ◼   ► I was like, "Oh, I don't think I would like that."

00:38:13 ◼   ► Because moving from the Mac and moving to the iPad and Mac frequently,

00:38:19 ◼   ► if I used it this way, I would break my brain a bit, I think.

00:38:23 ◼   ► I wanted to echo your disappointment for there being no changes to the app strip.

00:38:29 ◼   ► Because there's no changes on the Mac either.

00:38:32 ◼   ► They would add more functionality to it, right?

00:38:34 ◼   ► That you could actually say, as I said before, click the icons and just bring them to the

00:38:40 ◼   ► space, right?

00:38:41 ◼   ► But no, none of that kind of stuff.

00:38:44 ◼   ► But at least it's working mostly and better and they've released all of the things that

00:38:48 ◼   ► they said they were going to release and now we can just hope that they will do more of

00:38:53 ◼   ► it.

00:38:54 ◼   ► Let's see with this beta.

00:38:55 ◼   ► I'm optimistic.

00:38:56 ◼   ► I choose to be optimistic.

00:38:57 ◼   ► is the energy I'm bringing into this beta. I'm optimistic about it.

00:39:01 ◼   ► Are we gonna find out before the end of this episode, do you think?

00:39:04 ◼   ► No, he's recording on his Mac through his iPad. He can't get his iPad anymore live.

00:39:10 ◼   ► Exactly. So, well, technically I can. I can update this iPad.

00:39:17 ◼   ► You just can't see anything for a while.

00:39:18 ◼   ► I just can't see anything for a while, but I can also just take this Thunderbolt cable,

00:39:23 ◼   ► get into the Mac Mini and that's done, you know, so I probably will.

00:39:29 ◼   ► Yeah, although my internet is slow.

00:39:32 ◼   ► It says about an hour remaining.

00:39:34 ◼   ► I don't think it'll do it in time.

00:39:37 ◼   ► 16.2 and Mac OS 13.1 also brings with it Freeform, which Jon had an article about, Jason had

00:39:45 ◼   ► an article about.

00:39:46 ◼   ► I'm deep in it for a future MPU episode.

00:39:50 ◼   ► And even though these sort of infinite canvas, like sketch, draw, image type apps, they don't

00:39:57 ◼   ► really jive with the way that I work normally.

00:40:00 ◼   ► Freeform seems really well done and pretty robust for a 1.0.

00:40:07 ◼   ► I really like what they've done here.

00:40:10 ◼   ► I think it's interesting that they are combining, like you can see there's the DNA of Notes,

00:40:15 ◼   ► the DNA of iWork apps in free form. You can see all these different influences in the app.

00:40:22 ◼   ► It's going to be interesting to see how people use it, how people react to it. I think Apple,

00:40:30 ◼   ► when they announced it, they showed off all the collaborative use cases, where I actually think

00:40:38 ◼   ► there's plenty of sort of single user use cases as well. You can just use it for yourself if you

00:40:45 ◼   ► you want to have like a richer take on a mind map, basically, that supports multiple types

00:40:51 ◼   ► of input and data.

00:40:54 ◼   ► It's still odd, I think Jason wrote about this on Six Colors, it's still odd in that

00:40:58 ◼   ► sometimes the gestures, they do one thing and other times they do something else, like

00:41:03 ◼   ► sometimes you want to drag and drop an object and sometimes it works and other times you're

00:41:08 ◼   ► duplicating the object.

00:41:09 ◼   ► John took this deep dive because of course he did. He tried all the file types he could think of

00:41:16 ◼   ► and tried to drop all these embedded files into a board on Freeform and most of them,

00:41:23 ◼   ► impressively, most of them they worked with inline previews, others they did not, and so maybe Apple

00:41:29 ◼   ► has some work to do there. I think it's very fun though. I'd be curious to see how this evolves

00:41:37 ◼   ► alongside Notes in the future, because we have gotten used to Notes getting these annual updates,

00:41:45 ◼   ► especially in recent years. You can see Notes reminders really on track for these annual updates.

00:41:51 ◼   ► What's going to happen to Freeform? Is it going to be like a one-off? Is it the new clips?

00:41:55 ◼   ► Are we going to get updates every so often? Or is Apple behind Freeform as much as they are

00:42:03 ◼   ► with notes and reminders, I don't know. Do they need to? Probably not.

00:42:07 ◼   ► Freeform is one of those apps where I feel like I wish I had a reason to use it but I'm not sure

00:42:13 ◼   ► that I have a reason to use it. Like I have a couple of things I think I could do with it

00:42:17 ◼   ► but like I don't know if I will. Like one of them was, you know, in John's piece he had a freeform

00:42:23 ◼   ► canvas board, whatever they're called, where he was planning out some home automation stuff and

00:42:28 ◼   ► And this was the thing that I used my Apple Pencil for in the Notes app to draw out some

00:42:33 ◼   ► diagrams when I was buying some stuff for the house.

00:42:36 ◼   ► And I would have used Freeform for this if it was available.

00:42:39 ◼   ► And similarly for product design kind of stuff, I could imagine using it.

00:42:43 ◼   ► You could put some images that you've drawn, some things you're bringing in, and create

00:42:46 ◼   ► almost like a mood board kind of thing.

00:42:49 ◼   ► So maybe I could imagine myself using it for that, but I haven't yet, and I don't know

00:42:53 ◼   ► if I will.

00:42:54 ◼   ► It's a cool application, but just my...

00:42:57 ◼   ► I wonder who is gonna use this a lot.

00:43:00 ◼   ► That's what I'm wondering about.

00:43:02 ◼   ► Or is it just one of those things

00:43:03 ◼   ► that it demos really well

00:43:04 ◼   ► and you can have a fun time in it when you're in it?

00:43:06 ◼   ► But will you rely on it the same way

00:43:08 ◼   ► you rely on notes and reminders?

00:43:10 ◼   ► That I just, I'm not sure about.

00:43:13 ◼   ► - Maybe it's gonna be more like an iWork app

00:43:16 ◼   ► that's gonna get a bunch of features every so often

00:43:18 ◼   ► with updates, but not like-- - But that makes sense too.

00:43:20 ◼   ► I don't use pages and numbers every day,

00:43:22 ◼   ► but when I do, I use them and I love them for that.

00:43:24 ◼   ► And so maybe you're right, free form's just part of that for me.

00:43:27 ◼   ► Where like I've played with it and it's fine,

00:43:29 ◼   ► but I haven't had a real thing to do in it yet.

00:43:32 ◼   ► So I don't think I've understood its kind of power,

00:43:35 ◼   ► but I'm going to keep it in my mind.

00:43:38 ◼   ► Apple tried to really make it obvious to me

00:43:41 ◼   ► by putting it on my home screen of my iPhone,

00:43:44 ◼   ► moving all of my apps and widgets to other pages.

00:43:47 ◼   ► Appreciate that.

00:43:48 ◼   ► That was great.

00:43:49 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:43:49 ◼   ► Do you like the icon?

00:43:51 ◼   ► I kind of love it.

00:43:52 ◼   ► Love the icon.

00:43:53 ◼   ► Love the icon.

00:43:54 ◼   ► It's that kind of like 80s style.

00:43:57 ◼   ► It reminds me of like that jazz.

00:43:59 ◼   ► Is it called jazz?

00:44:01 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:44:02 ◼   ► - Purple and yeah.

00:44:03 ◼   ► It's like the cups.

00:44:04 ◼   ► It's called jazz design.

00:44:06 ◼   ► So you'll know it when you see it.

00:44:08 ◼   ► - Also in these new releases is doing air quotes,

00:44:12 ◼   ► real time collaboration where you can share a note

00:44:17 ◼   ► with another person or a group of people.

00:44:19 ◼   ► And you've been able to do that for a long time,

00:44:21 ◼   ► but it was not real time.

00:44:24 ◼   ► like a chunk of text would come in at once or an image would suddenly show up

00:44:27 ◼   ► or you would type on top of each other and then your sentences would just get

00:44:31 ◼   ► melded somehow. We have played with this. What are y'all's impressions so far of

00:44:36 ◼   ► the updated notes collaboration? I feel like it's embarrassed me. It's made a

00:44:42 ◼   ► fool out of me. Because, so here's things you can do, right? If you open a note on

00:44:47 ◼   ► two devices and type, it's like immediately updates. It's incredible. It's

00:44:52 ◼   ► like as fast as Google Docs. Today I was, you know, you know, we all must all have

00:44:58 ◼   ► this, but like, you know, I'm going to hand to my wife like, "Can you please install

00:45:01 ◼   ► this version of the operating system on your device?" All the time. Like this has been

00:45:06 ◼   ► particularly bad right now for reasons we'll get into later on. We're like,

00:45:09 ◼   ► everyone needs to be on the same version, which is not normal, but it's happening.

00:45:13 ◼   ► And so like when we were in a note together and writing and it was like

00:45:16 ◼   ► immediate, she was typing, I could see it and then I said, "Oh guys, we're gonna try

00:45:20 ◼   ► us out. Steven created a note for the four of us and it was a disaster. Yeah.

00:45:23 ◼   ► And it didn't work at all. It was just like how it used to be where these big

00:45:27 ◼   ► chunks. Now I reckon someone, one of the four of us is on the wrong version of an

00:45:31 ◼   ► operating system. That's my theory. That someone's on the wrong version somewhere.

00:45:35 ◼   ► So I, but like maybe there's something going wrong somewhere. Although. There he goes.

00:45:41 ◼   ► That may have been me. Yeah, there you go. See I knew it. So to answer Kate's question, yes the

00:45:47 ◼   ► fourth person is OTJ. The Mac Mini. I didn't update the Mac Mini. But

00:45:52 ◼   ► Notes was not open on the Mac Mini. Does it still matter? I don't know. I

00:45:57 ◼   ► don't know. But maybe it's better with two people than four people but like

00:46:02 ◼   ► even me and Steven were trying it out and it wasn't working so maybe Steven's

00:46:05 ◼   ► the problem. But I don't know. I've seen great results and so I think jury's

00:46:09 ◼   ► still out on this one. I think I think that's fair. It's not it's not fully done

00:46:14 ◼   ► but I like that they're doing stuff with this also was this I mean was this

00:46:20 ◼   ► talked about in advance like I think it just showed up I don't think it was I

00:46:25 ◼   ► think they did it nobody knew about it because no one looked and now some

00:46:29 ◼   ► developers are talking about it I would like it to be a reasonable replacement

00:46:35 ◼   ► for something like Google Docs I really like using Google Docs for the shows and

00:46:38 ◼   ► I honestly don't want to use notes, but for other things, I think it'd be it'd be great if it were better because

00:46:46 ◼   ► It was so frustrating to use before right where you would have those collisions and like delays and you know

00:46:53 ◼   ► You get the sidebar and you kind of see what people are doing and there's actually a really nice

00:46:57 ◼   ► Feature in I think the notes is better than Google Docs like right now in our Google Docs that we all have our own color

00:47:03 ◼   ► Cursor right you can kind of see them in the document like there's a purple one appear

00:47:08 ◼   ► There's a pink one down here and notes recreates that but it also has the little face of the

00:47:14 ◼   ► person over it.

00:47:16 ◼   ► And if you mouse over it on the Mac at least it expands out to their full name.

00:47:20 ◼   ► So if you had a note shared with you know more than just one person you could see where

00:47:24 ◼   ► everybody is and what they're doing.

00:47:25 ◼   ► And I think their implementation of it's a little bit better polished than Google Docs.

00:47:30 ◼   ► But I think they still have some work to do here.

00:47:33 ◼   ► But hopefully it continues to get better.

00:47:35 ◼   ► So me and Federico are in a note right now and it seems to be working much better.

00:47:41 ◼   ► So I think Steven's the problem.

00:47:42 ◼   ► No, I'm on 13.1.

00:47:45 ◼   ► Everything's up to date.

00:47:46 ◼   ► I have advanced data protection on.

00:47:47 ◼   ► Me and you were trying to do it earlier and it wasn't working.

00:47:50 ◼   ► And yeah, maybe you're just too encrypted.

00:47:52 ◼   ► But like I can see Federico, he's like moving things up and down and it's happening what

00:47:56 ◼   ► in what looks like real time to me.

00:47:59 ◼   ► So Steven's the problem.

00:48:00 ◼   ► We've worked that out.

00:48:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

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00:49:55 ◼   ► thanks to Trade Coffee for their support of the show and Relay FM. So you're too encrypted is the problem?

00:50:00 ◼   ► I'm totes encrypted baby. So I set up the advanced data protection

00:50:05 ◼   ► last night on my devices. You have to have everything up to date with

00:50:09 ◼   ► 16.2 or Mac OS 13.1, watch OS 9.2

00:50:15 ◼   ► So when you go to do this

00:50:19 ◼   ► It's in the main iCloud settings screen and settings on the Mac and everywhere else not in the password security

00:50:25 ◼   ► Subsection of iCloud where you think it would be in fact

00:50:29 ◼   ► I thought I didn't have access to it for some reason until I looked up a k-base article telling me how to do it

00:50:33 ◼   ► So it will tell you what devices are logged in with your Apple ID that are not up to date

00:50:40 ◼   ► So mine I had to wait on like one of my two HomePod minis in my office

00:50:44 ◼   ► Like it just took a long time for one of them to come back after the update

00:50:48 ◼   ► But eventually was able to do it

00:50:50 ◼   ► You might also find a hilarious number of old devices signed into your Apple ID account

00:50:56 ◼   ► I think John and I both had that experience yesterday

00:50:58 ◼   ► You two are very like the type of person that would have that you especially I don't know what that means

00:51:06 ◼   ► What does that mean that you have lots of old devices around are you not that kind of person?

00:51:10 ◼   ► I was signed into a performer with my iCloud account

00:51:13 ◼   ► Dealt with all that got everything up to date enabled it on my account. So I did I did a few things

00:51:19 ◼   ► I made sure that my legacy contacts

00:51:22 ◼   ► So if I kick it other people can get into my iCloud account

00:51:26 ◼   ► I made sure that was all set up the way I wanted and it was I set up a couple people as my

00:51:31 ◼   ► Regular recovery contacts if I'm locked out, you know, they can go to

00:51:35 ◼   ► I'm not gonna say who but a couple of people and get get access I can get access that way

00:51:40 ◼   ► I then enabled the fancy 28 digit recovery key

00:51:45 ◼   ► The way that that works I'd added all this on the Mac, but from reading through Apple's documentation

00:51:51 ◼   ► It's the same process everywhere you say okay. I want to create this you authenticate it then shows you

00:51:58 ◼   ► the

00:52:00 ◼   ► 28-digit key you have an option to print it

00:52:04 ◼   ► So I printed it and it's in a safe place

00:52:08 ◼   ► Where is it? Tell me where is it?

00:52:10 ◼   ► It's in a safe place.

00:52:11 ◼   ► Come on, tell us where it is. Is it in one part?

00:52:13 ◼   ► Tell us where it is.

00:52:14 ◼   ► Is it physical?

00:52:15 ◼   ► Come on, come on.

00:52:16 ◼   ► It's under Federico's mattress right now.

00:52:18 ◼   ► Did you go physical or digital? Just answer that.

00:52:20 ◼   ► Both.

00:52:21 ◼   ► Oooh.

00:52:22 ◼   ► Oh!

00:52:23 ◼   ► Federico, you know he's got like a safe inside of one of those Macs or something, you know?

00:52:28 ◼   ► Yeah, he's got a safe thing going. Yeah.

00:52:32 ◼   ► how how sometimes you like in a movie they go into a library and like one of

00:52:38 ◼   ► the books is hollowed out there's a gun in it oh my god it's like that but

00:52:41 ◼   ► computers and pass keys you've got a gun in there's no guns no guns I do not own

00:52:46 ◼   ► a gun you said it was an example so did all that you then type in the recovery

00:52:51 ◼   ► key you can't paste into the window I tried because I'm lazy typed it in and

00:52:57 ◼   ► then I was able to turn on advanced data protection it walks you through that

00:53:02 ◼   ► it makes really sure that you know what you're doing. Wait, wait, wait, I want to go

00:53:06 ◼   ► back a couple of steps there so I'm gonna make sure I understand. So you get the recovery key, they

00:53:09 ◼   ► make you type it back? Yes. That is incredibly good design. It is good. Right,

00:53:15 ◼   ► because it means you have to have written it down. Yes. Or printed it off,

00:53:19 ◼   ► or put it so you have to have done that? Yeah. Because you can't just be like, "I'll

00:53:23 ◼   ► copy paste," like, whatever. I think that's very smart. I had the same thought

00:53:27 ◼   ► process, like, this is well thought through. Yeah, that's really good. So did all that,

00:53:31 ◼   ► and then was able to turn on advanced data protection.

00:53:35 ◼   ► Using all my stuff last night and today,

00:53:38 ◼   ► I cannot tell a difference.

00:53:39 ◼   ► Like everything works just the way it did.

00:53:42 ◼   ► Photo syncs just as fast as it always did.

00:53:45 ◼   ► Maybe that's why notes are slow, I don't know.

00:53:47 ◼   ► - Can you imagine?

00:53:48 ◼   ► - So I did all this.

00:53:49 ◼   ► - Oh, it is?

00:53:50 ◼   ► - That'd be incredible.

00:53:51 ◼   ► So I did all of this, it was great.

00:53:52 ◼   ► I thought, okay, I'm gonna do Mary's as well.

00:53:54 ◼   ► So I went through the same process,

00:53:57 ◼   ► her legacy contacts, her recovery contacts,

00:53:59 ◼   ► everything was good.

00:54:00 ◼   ► When I went to generate the 28 digit recovery key

00:54:05 ◼   ► and then re-enter it, her Mac told me repeatedly

00:54:09 ◼   ► that the key was incorrect and it would not let me

00:54:12 ◼   ► move forward in actually setting the key.

00:54:14 ◼   ► So it doesn't turn the key on, for lack of a better phrase,

00:54:18 ◼   ► until you manually say this is what the key is,

00:54:22 ◼   ► which again, smart design.

00:54:24 ◼   ► Tried a couple different times, didn't work.

00:54:26 ◼   ► I then, I'm like, well, you know,

00:54:28 ◼   ► I don't know what's going on.

00:54:29 ◼   ► So I grabbed my laptop, I'm gonna do some Googling,

00:54:31 ◼   ► and I have like three emails from people saying,

00:54:33 ◼   ► "Hey, are you seeing this error?

00:54:35 ◼   ► "I'm getting this error when trying to do this."

00:54:38 ◼   ► So I don't know if iCloud or something,

00:54:42 ◼   ► like too many people were trying to do it,

00:54:44 ◼   ► or what the deal is, I have not tried again on her account.

00:54:47 ◼   ► But if you are seeing where you re-enter

00:54:50 ◼   ► the 28 digit recovery key and you know that it's correct,

00:54:55 ◼   ► I mean, I like painfully like out loud was like,

00:54:57 ◼   ► capital P, capital P, you know, one, one, you know,

00:55:02 ◼   ► spelled it all out.

00:55:03 ◼   ► - Is that your key?

00:55:04 ◼   ► Is that how it starts?

00:55:05 ◼   ► - It's PP11.

00:55:06 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:55:09 ◼   ► - It was weird, mine was actually, was just, yeah,

00:55:11 ◼   ► it's just three, just repeated over and over.

00:55:14 ◼   ► - PP11.

00:55:15 ◼   ► - So I don't know what the deal is with that.

00:55:17 ◼   ► I'm gonna try hers again probably this weekend.

00:55:19 ◼   ► Everything's up to date on her account.

00:55:20 ◼   ► It's just that this fails and I'm not able to move forward

00:55:24 ◼   ► from that, so seems a little weird.

00:55:27 ◼   ► definitely scared me a little bit. I was like, for a second, I was like, oh, no,

00:55:32 ◼   ► like I just set a recovery key on her account that I don't know. Like,

00:55:35 ◼   ► Oh, wow. That's, that's when, uh, my ears get hot.

00:55:40 ◼   ► I do those kinds of things and like, then my ears get warm.

00:55:44 ◼   ► You're like, oh no, I've done something that cannot be undone, but it doesn't,

00:55:47 ◼   ► it doesn't set the key.

00:55:48 ◼   ► I've said something should happen.

00:55:50 ◼   ► But it doesn't set the key until you manually reenter it.

00:55:53 ◼   ► So I don't know what the deal is. Um, so yeah,

00:55:56 ◼   ► I've got turned on and I think if you're in the US or in a country where this rolls out in the future

00:56:02 ◼   ► It's definitely worth looking at I wanted the additional security. I'm

00:56:05 ◼   ► Capable of managing the recovery key and you know having my legacy contacts and everything all done

00:56:10 ◼   ► so you got to jump through some hoops with it, but I think it's well worth it and

00:56:14 ◼   ► So far so good at least on my account and I'll follow up with Mary's like I said, I'm gonna try hers again this weekend

00:56:20 ◼   ► I think talking about updating every device the new home architecture

00:56:25 ◼   ► So the new home app, it has a new architecture.

00:56:29 ◼   ► What does it do?

00:56:30 ◼   ► Unclear exactly.

00:56:32 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:56:33 ◼   ► - Performance improvements.

00:56:34 ◼   ► I was like, I was thinking to myself,

00:56:35 ◼   ► hmm, my home feels snappier, right?

00:56:37 ◼   ► It was just what I was imagining.

00:56:39 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:56:40 ◼   ► And it has more support for Matter,

00:56:43 ◼   ► but it also kind of did, it's like what that exactly means.

00:56:47 ◼   ► It's not entirely clear, but it's like you want it, right?

00:56:52 ◼   ► Like, but they make it complicated.

00:56:55 ◼   ► Like every device has to be updated

00:56:58 ◼   ► and everyone's, not just yours,

00:57:00 ◼   ► everybody's devices and across multiple homes.

00:57:03 ◼   ► So like I have HomeKit stuff at the studio

00:57:05 ◼   ► and HomeKit stuff at home.

00:57:06 ◼   ► - Do you have two homes set up in HomeKit then?

00:57:09 ◼   ► - If I wanted to update my home,

00:57:11 ◼   ► it's like, oh, you've also got to do stuff at the studio

00:57:14 ◼   ► because otherwise none of that's gonna work anymore.

00:57:16 ◼   ► It's basically what it tells me.

00:57:17 ◼   ► And it's like, okay.

00:57:19 ◼   ► So like it's doing something on your phone.

00:57:21 ◼   ► I think the matter stuff is making the phone the matter controller.

00:57:25 ◼   ► So a lot of things need to be done and I'm wondering if I should wait a bit because I've

00:57:28 ◼   ► still got devices that I haven't plugged in after moving.

00:57:32 ◼   ► We've not plugged in our home pods yet.

00:57:35 ◼   ► So I figure I should probably do that and update them before I do this.

00:57:38 ◼   ► Now I'm sure I could just turn them on and update them to 16.2 and it will work but it's

00:57:43 ◼   ► also a bit like, ooh, I don't know if I want to do that.

00:57:46 ◼   ► Because today I finished updating all of my devices.

00:57:49 ◼   ► of my devices done because it gives you a little list it tells you like this Mac

00:57:52 ◼   ► and this watch you've got to do them so I did them and then like oh by the way

00:57:56 ◼   ► these people so I could just did in it all of their stuffs gonna be done or

00:58:00 ◼   ► it's not gonna work for them either it's like whoa geez okay so it's pretty

00:58:04 ◼   ► extensive which I think is at the moment why it's quite hard to find in the home

00:58:10 ◼   ► app where to do this because I think they don't want yeah it's buried yeah

00:58:16 ◼   ► You have to go into the settings inside of the home app and go software update

00:58:19 ◼   ► I figured out open the home app and get one of those splash screens like hey

00:58:23 ◼   ► New architecture hit this button. But yeah, it's it's a bit buried. I did it. It took about 30 seconds again

00:58:30 ◼   ► I can tell no difference. I did have the ear warming

00:58:33 ◼   ► I really like that as a phrase the ear warming moment where I hit the button on my phone and I was like

00:58:40 ◼   ► Oh, no, I run home bridge. My home bridge stuff is fine. Like it still all works. Okay now no

00:58:45 ◼   ► it's fine sometimes it's like once every nine months you have to rebuild your

00:58:49 ◼   ► home bridge from scratch I don't see what the big problem is windows users do

00:58:52 ◼   ► it you know see I've done it at Apple is very unclear about what it does or you

00:59:00 ◼   ► know anything like that but uh but yeah I'm upgraded so I'm I'm on that new home

00:59:05 ◼   ► architecture whatever that means I'm sure it'll be helpful in the future it

00:59:09 ◼   ► will be helpful in the future I think that they're gonna wait for a while

00:59:12 ◼   ► before pushing that screen because I saw that screen in a beta like I opened the

00:59:17 ◼   ► home app during a beta and showed me that screen yeah but okay and it's the screen

00:59:21 ◼   ► that you get when you go into the software update thing so but I think now

00:59:26 ◼   ► they're like well this is really complicated so they're just not going to

00:59:30 ◼   ► show it to people for a while maybe they'll wait until like the majority of

00:59:33 ◼   ► your devices are already done and then it will tell you hey you want to do this

00:59:37 ◼   ► rather than like making people jump through all these hoops just to make

00:59:41 ◼   ► this update. Yeah I still gotta do it. I'm staring at the screen now it says

00:59:46 ◼   ► upgrade all homes because I also have the multi home home kit setup thing

00:59:52 ◼   ► going. Multi home lifestyle. Yeah you know just switch between them whenever I

00:59:57 ◼   ► please. This episode of Connected is made possible by Capital One. Have you ever

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01:01:15 ◼   ► Capital One, what's in your wallet?

01:01:18 ◼   ► - Was there anything of use that you can find?

01:01:21 ◼   ► - I don't know guys, I don't know, I don't see it.

01:01:23 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:01:25 ◼   ► - There's nothing in there.

01:01:26 ◼   ► This is the problem of not being on Twitter

01:01:28 ◼   ► 'cause usually I would just have Twitter open right now

01:01:31 ◼   ► and we'll be waiting to see like,

01:01:33 ◼   ► oh, I found this thing, right?

01:01:35 ◼   ► I saw on the discord there's no release notes for the beta yet.

01:01:38 ◼   ► Yeah, there's no release notes.

01:01:40 ◼   ► I searched for Apple Music classical or just classic gold, but like there's

01:01:45 ◼   ► nothing. I opened the music app and there's nothing special about it.

01:01:50 ◼   ► Uh, you know, besides Apple Music Sing having a splash screen.

01:01:55 ◼   ► Uh, I didn't see anything in shortcuts.

01:01:58 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:01:59 ◼   ► Did you find the Epic Games Store?

01:02:02 ◼   ► Uh, no, I don't think it's in this version.

01:02:05 ◼   ► Maybe I gotta look better.

01:02:07 ◼   ► - Maybe next year.

01:02:09 ◼   ► - Maybe next year.

01:02:11 ◼   ► - Mark Gorman at Bloomberg is reporting

01:02:12 ◼   ► that teams at Apple, various employees,

01:02:15 ◼   ► lots of people have been tasked with opening up

01:02:18 ◼   ► big portions of iOS in anticipation of European Union rules

01:02:23 ◼   ► that would kind of make this unavoidable.

01:02:25 ◼   ► There are a few things here.

01:02:26 ◼   ► I'll list what they are

01:02:27 ◼   ► and then we can talk about some of this stuff.

01:02:28 ◼   ► So some of these things are private APIs.

01:02:31 ◼   ► So camera controls, NFC functionality,

01:02:34 ◼   ► find my access.

01:02:36 ◼   ► Basically, I looked at this as like

01:02:38 ◼   ► the things that people make, like

01:02:40 ◼   ► hardware that people makes the Apple

01:02:41 ◼   ► also makes that Apple is able to get

01:02:43 ◼   ► benefit from. Right.

01:02:44 ◼   ► So let's change that.

01:02:45 ◼   ► Scrapping the browser engine

01:02:48 ◼   ► requirements. Currently, every

01:02:50 ◼   ► browser on iOS runs the WebKit

01:02:52 ◼   ► engine, even if they would

01:02:54 ◼   ► even Firefox.

01:02:55 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:02:56 ◼   ► Or even if you're Chrome.

01:02:57 ◼   ► And this wasn't the case before.

01:02:59 ◼   ► And then Apple changed that.

01:03:01 ◼   ► Wait, it was it?

01:03:02 ◼   ► No, I think it's always been.

01:03:04 ◼   ► No, it hasn't always been the case.

01:03:05 ◼   ► Federico, can you adjudicate?

01:03:08 ◼   ► - No, never, never.

01:03:09 ◼   ► - No, never, no, never.

01:03:11 ◼   ► Okay, there you go, that's two to one.

01:03:13 ◼   ► So that idea would change.

01:03:14 ◼   ► There is talk about the possibility

01:03:17 ◼   ► of iMessage compatibility with other platforms,

01:03:21 ◼   ► but Mark Gurman is saying that Apple

01:03:23 ◼   ► is gonna fight this one, two for now, which is interesting,

01:03:26 ◼   ► because one of the ones that they seem to be preparing for

01:03:28 ◼   ► is the possibility of third-party app stores.

01:03:30 ◼   ► This could be an iOS 17 feature.

01:03:32 ◼   ► "The company is reportedly dedicating a significant amount of resources to this company-wide endeavor.

01:03:38 ◼   ► Apple is considering the idea of mandating certain security requirements, even if the

01:03:43 ◼   ► software is distributed outside of its store, and these apps could require verification

01:03:48 ◼   ► by Apple, a process that could carry a fee for developers."

01:03:52 ◼   ► So this is European Union, right?

01:03:55 ◼   ► And Mark Gurman right now is saying that he believes that, or is under the understanding

01:04:01 ◼   ► that Apple is currently planning for this to go into effect only in the places that

01:04:05 ◼   ► they need it. I wanted to see what you two thought about that because I think that if

01:04:09 ◼   ► they just start this, I would expect they're just going to go all in.

01:04:13 ◼   ► Well, that's the hope. I think it's such a massive technical undertaking that you might

01:04:20 ◼   ► as well do the work and do it everywhere, you know? I think this is obviously it's going

01:04:27 ◼   ► to be the story in our community for the next few months probably and into next year.

01:04:32 ◼   ► We've been talking about it for years anyway.

01:04:34 ◼   ► We've been talking about it for years. I just feel like at this time we need to be careful

01:04:40 ◼   ► what we wish for is sort of the angle that I've taken on this because there's multiple

01:04:45 ◼   ► ways in which this could go in unexpected directions. I just wanted to go through a

01:04:53 ◼   ► few scenarios with you guys. The first and obvious one, I mean, Gurman reported this.

01:04:59 ◼   ► Apple might as well say, "Fine, we will do site loading. We will now allow competing

01:05:04 ◼   ► app stores to exist. We will now let you download apps from trusted sources." But what if part

01:05:10 ◼   ► of that deal is, "Well, we are bringing our Gatekeeper technology to iOS and iPadOS."

01:05:17 ◼   ► And I, you know, I suppose they're doing it on both platforms. We're bringing Gatekeeper,

01:05:22 ◼   ► But now, if you want to have your app be verified via Gatekeeper, now you've got to give us

01:05:29 ◼   ► an annual fee that is like this massive verification fee. And you know that there could be ways

01:05:36 ◼   ► in which Apple could tell you, "Well, yeah, you can do it, but you've got to give us 20%

01:05:41 ◼   ► of your revenue every year."

01:05:43 ◼   ► Yep.

01:05:44 ◼   ► Can they do it? Will they do it?

01:05:46 ◼   ► They've done it with the third party payment stuff.

01:05:51 ◼   ► Do you remember that?

01:05:53 ◼   ► It was like in South Korea and it's in other places now,

01:05:55 ◼   ► I think it's in the Netherlands too,

01:05:56 ◼   ► where you have to do an audit for Apple

01:06:00 ◼   ► and give it to them and then they'll take--

01:06:02 ◼   ► - But the app was still distributed via the app store.

01:06:04 ◼   ► - But still they may just say, if it's on our platform,

01:06:07 ◼   ► you owe us 28%.

01:06:10 ◼   ► - They could say that.

01:06:11 ◼   ► And for as ridiculous as it could be,

01:06:14 ◼   ► will be like, "Hey, yes, we're happy. We cannot distribute apps outside of the App Store,

01:06:19 ◼   ► but we cannot avoid Apple's fee." And it's like a ridiculous... Like they could just

01:06:24 ◼   ► say it's 29% just out of spite to make it even more ironic, but they could do it. They

01:06:31 ◼   ► could do it.

01:06:33 ◼   ► The other scenario that I was imagining, like what you just mentioned, Myke, will this be

01:06:37 ◼   ► EU only or will it also extend to the US? If it stays EU only, I could see a problem

01:06:44 ◼   ► I mean, which some companies may say, well,

01:06:47 ◼   ► do we care about distributing apps when most of our users,

01:06:51 ◼   ► most of our audience is in the United States anyway?

01:06:54 ◼   ► Do we care about this particular change for Europe?

01:06:57 ◼   ► Now, Europe is a bigger market for a ton of companies

01:07:00 ◼   ► than say just South Korea, right?

01:07:03 ◼   ► It's a much bigger audience, but still.

01:07:06 ◼   ► - Or just the Netherlands, right?

01:07:08 ◼   ► - Or just the Netherlands. - Where they've been making

01:07:09 ◼   ► these particular changes, but Europe is here.

01:07:12 ◼   ► I mean, look, here's my thinking.

01:07:14 ◼   ► I don't think they're just gonna do USB-C on the iPhone

01:07:17 ◼   ► in only Europe.

01:07:18 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:07:19 ◼   ► And so I think it would be a similar thing here.

01:07:22 ◼   ► And also, it's like you may as well get ahead of this

01:07:27 ◼   ► before the, 'cause if this passes in the EU,

01:07:30 ◼   ► it's probably inevitably gonna pass,

01:07:31 ◼   ► depending on the government in America,

01:07:33 ◼   ► at least in some form,

01:07:35 ◼   ► because this kind of stuff's been bubbling around

01:07:37 ◼   ► in the States for a long time anyway, right?

01:07:39 ◼   ► The monopoly stuff.

01:07:40 ◼   ► - It has.

01:07:41 ◼   ► And so it feels an inevitability.

01:07:44 ◼   ► By the way, it's just like, how funny in hindsight is the name Gatekeeper?

01:07:47 ◼   ► Yeah, it's perfect.

01:07:50 ◼   ► If you think about it.

01:07:51 ◼   ► Because they're called Gatekeepers now.

01:07:54 ◼   ► Like all of this EU stuff, they refer to the companies as Gatekeepers.

01:07:59 ◼   ► It's perfect.

01:08:00 ◼   ► It's perfect.

01:08:01 ◼   ► I have a proposal.

01:08:02 ◼   ► Say that we're stuck with Lightning in the US and they switch ports in Europe.

01:08:09 ◼   ► That phone could be the iPhone E USB-C?

01:08:13 ◼   ► It's good.

01:08:14 ◼   ► EU.

01:08:15 ◼   ► It's good.

01:08:16 ◼   ► I feel like you could make a big Apple buddy in that situation going the other way too.

01:08:20 ◼   ► It's a reverse Apple buddy.

01:08:21 ◼   ► It's sending stuff to America.

01:08:23 ◼   ► Making bank out of the USB-C iPhone.

01:08:28 ◼   ► The other, I think the other scenario in which we, I think this is the one that's going to

01:08:33 ◼   ► happen and we gotta prepare ourselves. And it's fine, but just it will entail a change of habits.

01:08:40 ◼   ► And how we think of our phones. You know that if Apple opens up the platform to compete in

01:08:47 ◼   ► App Stores, you know that we're gonna end up in a situation where you have the meta store, and the

01:08:54 ◼   ► epic game store, and the Microsoft store. And you know that all these companies are gonna say, "Well,

01:09:00 ◼   ► We're taking these apps off the App Store and we're doing our own store.

01:09:05 ◼   ► You want Instagram? Go to the Meta store.

01:09:08 ◼   ► You want Fortnite? Go to the Epic store and so forth.

01:09:11 ◼   ► Now, this has been... This fragmentation of stores, of marketplaces,

01:09:16 ◼   ► has been mostly fine on computers and video game consoles.

01:09:20 ◼   ► We are used to that now.

01:09:22 ◼   ► I would say that this is a maybe, right?

01:09:24 ◼   ► Because Meta don't have their own Android store.

01:09:26 ◼   ► No, they don't, but, you know...

01:09:30 ◼   ► I could see this as a possibility, but I don't think... I hear a lot of people talk about this as an inevitability.

01:09:35 ◼   ► But if the majority of users are still using the App Store, which they will,

01:09:42 ◼   ► you want to be where the majority of users are. You don't want to make it 20 steps to download Instagram.

01:09:47 ◼   ► I don't think it's inevitable, but I think it's likely that more and more are going to happen.

01:09:52 ◼   ► Definitely. And the Epic Games Store is a perfect example, right?

01:09:55 ◼   ► And Microsoft talked about doing its own Xbox store for mobile games and cloud gaming.

01:10:01 ◼   ► But like, I think for gaming, this is fine because it already exists as a thing everywhere, right?

01:10:07 ◼   ► So gamers get it.

01:10:08 ◼   ► But realistically, you could also see a scenario in which companies like Setup could do,

01:10:13 ◼   ► "Well, now we have a store and you pay a subscription through us and you get a bunch of apps."

01:10:18 ◼   ► It also remains to be seen whether the same app can be distributed through multiple stores.

01:10:24 ◼   ► Can you be in a situation in a future iPhone where you have the same app on your phone

01:10:29 ◼   ► from multiple stores?

01:10:31 ◼   ► Like is that a potential thing that could happen?

01:10:35 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:10:36 ◼   ► I mean, if we model it on the Mac, yes.

01:10:38 ◼   ► Yes.

01:10:39 ◼   ► If you model it on the Mac, yes.

01:10:43 ◼   ► But if you think about it on your phone, it's kind of weird, right?

01:10:46 ◼   ► Timery.

01:10:47 ◼   ► Taylor's version.

01:10:48 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:10:49 ◼   ► Like that's what we get.

01:10:51 ◼   ► Yeah, it's exactly that.

01:10:52 ◼   ► So I think all of this is going to happen, and it will require a change of mindset in

01:10:57 ◼   ► how we think of our iPhone.

01:10:59 ◼   ► It's going to be more like a computer, more like a Mac than a phone, which is ironic because

01:11:04 ◼   ► iOS was based on my Quest 10, but still, you know, it's very different from what it is

01:11:08 ◼   ► right now.

01:11:09 ◼   ► And let me say, by the way, I am super happy that this is happening.

01:11:14 ◼   ► I am here for this chaos going into 2033.

01:11:17 ◼   ► I think it's about time that Apple, you know, opens up the...

01:11:21 ◼   ► Like I don't care.

01:11:22 ◼   ► pride open, you know, let it in, like I don't care, give me all the apps, give me all the apps, give me

01:11:28 ◼   ► software using private APIs, it's about time, you know, and it's unfortunate that a government agency

01:11:37 ◼   ► had to force Apple's hands here, but I continue to believe that it's absurd at this point that on

01:11:45 ◼   ► on Mac OS you can have Gatekeeper and on iOS and iPad OS you cannot.

01:11:50 ◼   ► What is it the optimal scenario that the EU had to force Apple to make it happen?

01:11:55 ◼   ► No, but the outcome, I kind of like it.

01:11:59 ◼   ► I want it.

01:12:00 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:12:01 ◼   ► I want this.

01:12:02 ◼   ► I want all of this.

01:12:03 ◼   ► I do too.

01:12:04 ◼   ► Because we all make it work with the Mac, right?

01:12:06 ◼   ► Like we just make it work and it's fine and you don't have to do any of it and you won't

01:12:11 ◼   ► have to do any of it.

01:12:12 ◼   ► Like imagine if the Mac App Store was really good and had everything in it, right?

01:12:17 ◼   ► It would make everybody's lives easier.

01:12:19 ◼   ► And so this would be like that, where like all of the apps you want, they're going to

01:12:22 ◼   ► be in the App Store and you never have to do anything weird.

01:12:26 ◼   ► But if you're like us, you can go and download the blank store and you can go and sideload

01:12:32 ◼   ► this weird app that like adds a bunch of hacks to shortcuts.

01:12:37 ◼   ► You can just do that because you want to and you're going to have a great time.

01:12:41 ◼   ► So I want this, I'm into it.

01:12:45 ◼   ► And do you know what?

01:12:45 ◼   ► I really hope that like,

01:12:47 ◼   ► again, in the piece from Mark Gurman,

01:12:50 ◼   ► I thought it was really interesting saying like,

01:12:51 ◼   ► there are a bunch of Apple employees that are like

01:12:53 ◼   ► really mad that they're having to work on this

01:12:55 ◼   ► 'cause they feel like it's a distraction.

01:12:57 ◼   ► You know, I kind of understand that to a point

01:12:59 ◼   ► of like you're working on a thing and then like,

01:13:00 ◼   ► oh, this is legislation and da, da, da.

01:13:03 ◼   ► But I really hope that people can like take a step back

01:13:06 ◼   ► and realize that this needs to happen.

01:13:09 ◼   ► Like this has to happen

01:13:10 ◼   ► because the monopoly is way too strong.

01:13:13 ◼   ► Of things like, if you don't hear that idea

01:13:18 ◼   ► of Apple demanding audits of people's transactions

01:13:21 ◼   ► so they can make sure they get,

01:13:22 ◼   ► none of this stuff should be happening.

01:13:24 ◼   ► It's all gone too far.

01:13:26 ◼   ► I hope that we get over this hump of them doing it

01:13:28 ◼   ► and then Apple embrace this and use this as a way

01:13:31 ◼   ► to continue making the platform even better.

01:13:34 ◼   ► That the competition is good for them and/or they make it

01:13:38 ◼   ► so it's really easy for people that care

01:13:39 ◼   ► to do fun stuff like they allow on the Mac

01:13:42 ◼   ► and they continue to make tools that people can use

01:13:46 ◼   ► whether they distribute inside or outside the app store

01:13:49 ◼   ► or maybe they're different

01:13:50 ◼   ► and that they really use this as a way

01:13:52 ◼   ► to further this platform.

01:13:54 ◼   ► Just I hope that there will be enough people

01:13:57 ◼   ► inside of the company that take this as an opportunity

01:14:00 ◼   ► to pick up a ball and run with it

01:14:02 ◼   ► rather than just feel like their heels

01:14:04 ◼   ► are being dragged through.

01:14:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, if they do it, they should own it

01:14:07 ◼   ► and they should make it real high quality.

01:14:10 ◼   ► You know, they should make the polished,

01:14:13 ◼   ► Apple-like iPhone version of what the concept

01:14:18 ◼   ► of installing apps from different sources is.

01:14:20 ◼   ► Like, don't make, basically what I think

01:14:23 ◼   ► we are asking for here is don't make us feel bad

01:14:26 ◼   ► for enabling this.

01:14:28 ◼   ► What if they bring over the DMG,

01:14:31 ◼   ► like mount it on the desktop and drag the app over

01:14:34 ◼   ► from the Mac? You have to drag and drop it.

01:14:35 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:14:36 ◼   ► and then eject it every time you're done.

01:14:39 ◼   ► It's like, we fixed this.

01:14:40 ◼   ► - To be fair, we thought,

01:14:43 ◼   ► go back a couple of years ago,

01:14:45 ◼   ► and we thought, oh, Apple is never gonna let you set

01:14:47 ◼   ► a default web browser, like a different default browser.

01:14:50 ◼   ► And they did it, and it's pretty elegant.

01:14:52 ◼   ► I mean, sure, you gotta go into settings,

01:14:54 ◼   ► but hey, you have a proper settings screen,

01:14:56 ◼   ► and every link redirects to the different browser,

01:14:59 ◼   ► and there's a menu that shows you

01:15:01 ◼   ► all the options that you have.

01:15:02 ◼   ► It's fine.

01:15:04 ◼   ► It's pretty nicely presented.

01:15:06 ◼   ► So it's not like you gotta open a JSON configuration file

01:15:11 ◼   ► and hack something yourself.

01:15:13 ◼   ► No, it's got a UI, it's nice, it's pretty easy to do.

01:15:17 ◼   ► I hope the same will be true for installing apps

01:15:20 ◼   ► from different sources, and maybe there'll be a menu

01:15:22 ◼   ► that shows you, here's the sources you have apps from.

01:15:26 ◼   ► Like, it can be done nicely.

01:15:29 ◼   ► And by German's report, it sounds like

01:15:31 ◼   ► this is a company-wide effort.

01:15:33 ◼   ► It also sounds like some engineers don't wanna do it,

01:15:36 ◼   ► and they think it's a waste of time,

01:15:38 ◼   ► which it's fun to get that perspective.

01:15:42 ◼   ► Like, why do you think it's a waste of time?

01:15:44 ◼   ► But you gotta believe that there are some people

01:15:47 ◼   ► inside Apple who are like, no,

01:15:48 ◼   ► our users should always install apps from us

01:15:53 ◼   ► and not anybody else, which I understand, but still,

01:15:57 ◼   ► it's, you know, this is the world we live in now.

01:16:00 ◼   ► Competition is good, it turns out.

01:16:02 ◼   ► - And that idea of embracing it fully

01:16:04 ◼   ► is why I hope that they do just do the whole do the damn thing, right?

01:16:08 ◼   ► So like it's the big WWDC feature, because if they do that, they're not just

01:16:13 ◼   ► going to make it Europe only, right?

01:16:14 ◼   ► If they're going to make it like a big part of WWDC and like, this is

01:16:17 ◼   ► what I'm hoping they're going to do.

01:16:18 ◼   ► If they'll do it, I don't know, but I'm trying to put that energy out there.

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01:18:29 ◼   ► Show and relay FM. All right. So speaking about owning things

01:18:33 ◼   ► Mm-hmm. We should own the weirdness of this episode. Okay

01:18:37 ◼   ► the two things are happening today one Federico had a

01:18:41 ◼   ► Hard out time which we have now surpassed that time. Yes, so Federico has run away forever

01:18:49 ◼   ► Goodbye, Federica.

01:18:50 ◼   ► Forever.

01:18:51 ◼   ► I didn't mean that.

01:18:52 ◼   ► He's just gone for this episode.

01:18:54 ◼   ► He'll be back next time, probably.

01:18:56 ◼   ► Who knows?

01:18:57 ◼   ► Maybe there'll be snakes in the internet.

01:18:58 ◼   ► Who knows?

01:18:59 ◼   ► But maybe he'll be back.

01:19:00 ◼   ► Yeah, he should be back.

01:19:01 ◼   ► I've taken this down a weirder route than it was meant to.

01:19:05 ◼   ► He's just gone now, alright?

01:19:07 ◼   ► He's just gone.

01:19:08 ◼   ► Don't worry about it.

01:19:09 ◼   ► He had to leave.

01:19:10 ◼   ► The pro show today was way longer than we thought it was going to be, and we liked it,

01:19:14 ◼   ► and we were talking about something that's probably important, and we should probably

01:19:17 ◼   ► address it right which is our stance on Twitter as you've heard so we decided

01:19:20 ◼   ► that the pro show is available for everyone but we're gonna do the pre-show

01:19:25 ◼   ► of the pro show but we're gonna do a pro post show as well if you enjoyed the vibe

01:19:31 ◼   ► of the pro show they're like that a lot it's like more relaxed it's it can be a

01:19:36 ◼   ► different kind of topic you should sign up for connected pro and this is the

01:19:39 ◼   ► final call you've got just what how many more days is it three days when this is

01:19:44 ◼   ► So on the 19th, right, so up until the 19th of December...

01:19:48 ◼   ► 17th, today's the 14th. You have done such a bad job of this.

01:19:52 ◼   ► Why don't you take over then, Mr. Goodjob?

01:19:54 ◼   ► Federico had to leave.

01:19:56 ◼   ► The pro-show, what we thought was going to be the pro-show, we put in the main show for everybody.

01:20:02 ◼   ► So there's going to be a post-show for members this week.

01:20:04 ◼   ► If you like that, go to GiveRelay.com between now and December 17th.

01:20:09 ◼   ► Three days from now, you can get 20% off an annual membership.

01:20:13 ◼   ► But it's also going to be a post show, which you'll only get if you do that.

01:20:16 ◼   ► If you remember.

01:20:17 ◼   ► So should we do follow up now?

01:20:20 ◼   ► iPhone Emergency SOS is now available in more countries,

01:20:24 ◼   ► United Kingdom, France, Germany and Ireland.

01:20:28 ◼   ► Michael, will you be testing this by crashing a car?

01:20:31 ◼   ► Wait, why have I got to crash a car for?

01:20:33 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:20:34 ◼   ► Just you can't fake an emergency.

01:20:36 ◼   ► It's got to be a real emergency.

01:20:37 ◼   ► I don't want to test car crash detection as well as.

01:20:40 ◼   ► Oh, yes. Right.

01:20:41 ◼   ► Those are two different things. Yeah.

01:20:42 ◼   ► - So you're gonna-- - Oh, great job, Steven.

01:20:44 ◼   ► - Are you gonna test it by wandering off into the woods?

01:20:47 ◼   ► - No, I just did the test thing.

01:20:49 ◼   ► - Did you, how was it?

01:20:50 ◼   ► Cool, huh?

01:20:51 ◼   ► - I did it when I was in the studio

01:20:52 ◼   ► and I couldn't find a satellite.

01:20:53 ◼   ► - You gotta be outside.

01:20:55 ◼   ► - But I at least got the UI, like whatever.

01:20:58 ◼   ► Like the moving around, it's like,

01:20:59 ◼   ► "Hey, we found the satellite."

01:21:01 ◼   ► And they're like, "I'll go outside."

01:21:02 ◼   ► And I'm like, "I don't wanna go outside."

01:21:03 ◼   ► So I didn't go outside, so I only tested half of it.

01:21:05 ◼   ► But I feel like I got enough, right,

01:21:07 ◼   ► to like, I just wanted to see what the UI looked like

01:21:09 ◼   ► for detecting the satellite.

01:21:11 ◼   ► and I got that far.

01:21:13 ◼   ► And so it was pretty cool.

01:21:14 ◼   ► Like I thought it was really interesting.

01:21:17 ◼   ► I'm happy that it's there.

01:21:19 ◼   ► This is not a thing that I will subscribe to

01:21:21 ◼   ► when I need to subscribe to it, right?

01:21:23 ◼   ► I think it just, it's not a thing for me,

01:21:25 ◼   ► but it's a cool feature that exists.

01:21:27 ◼   ► - There was a story a couple of weeks ago.

01:21:29 ◼   ► I don't remember if we talked about it or not,

01:21:31 ◼   ► but it was like the first example of someone being saved

01:21:34 ◼   ► by iPhone emergency SOS.

01:21:36 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:21:37 ◼   ► I mean, it was gonna happen, right?

01:21:38 ◼   ► Like we already unfortunately

01:21:41 ◼   ► had the people who, they're like people who died, but the car crash detection

01:21:45 ◼   ► thing went off for them, which was really sad. And so this was inevitable that it was going to

01:21:49 ◼   ► happen at some point. So it happened in Alaska, which that makes sense.

01:21:54 ◼   ► Yeah. Yeah, you get lost in the great white north, then maybe Canada. Actually, now that I think about it.

01:22:01 ◼   ► Also in follow-up, you have continued to use Spark. You spoke a while back about

01:22:07 ◼   ► some of the changes to it and how you felt about those.

01:22:09 ◼   ► How is it going a month or two later?

01:22:13 ◼   ► - Well, okay, so a couple of things have happened.

01:22:15 ◼   ► I've gotten more used to it and they've made improvements.

01:22:17 ◼   ► So really the only big work that's, well not really,

01:22:22 ◼   ► most of the work that has been needed

01:22:24 ◼   ► to make Spark work better has been on their Mac app.

01:22:27 ◼   ► I mentioned they made changes to their iPhone app

01:22:30 ◼   ► and there are still a bunch of things I don't like about it

01:22:32 ◼   ► but mostly it's just like the approach and language stuff.

01:22:35 ◼   ► Like I still have not used to done phrase instead of archive,

01:22:39 ◼   ► like it still annoys me.

01:22:41 ◼   ► But overall, some of the new features

01:22:43 ◼   ► are working for me pretty well.

01:22:44 ◼   ► So they've added in on the Mac app

01:22:46 ◼   ► a dark mode, printing support, and a sidebar.

01:22:49 ◼   ► Very happy for that.

01:22:50 ◼   ► Still want a column view.

01:22:52 ◼   ► Then they say that they're working on it.

01:22:56 ◼   ► The two features that they added that I'm enjoying

01:23:00 ◼   ► is their sender blocking and the automatic sorting of email.

01:23:04 ◼   ► So the sender blocking feature is like someone pops into my inbox, I can block them and never

01:23:08 ◼   ► hear from them again. I like this and the email sorting is also good. And what I like about it is

01:23:13 ◼   ► it's working across all of my email accounts no matter what service they are or service they're

01:23:20 ◼   ► not. So I like that it's doing this and it just it's you know it is a true unified inbox in that

01:23:25 ◼   ► sense. So that is pretty cool like and all of that stuff is is working pretty well for me.

01:23:31 ◼   ► I remain pretty intrigued to see if or how the iPhone app will change.

01:23:37 ◼   ► The Mac app has a very different design now and is built on different web technologies.

01:23:43 ◼   ► It's built on Electron.

01:23:45 ◼   ► They haven't done any of this to the iPhone app.

01:23:48 ◼   ► They've just made some changes to make the new features work and I assume at some point

01:23:53 ◼   ► that they're going to randomly drop a Spark 3 for the iPhone like they did for the Mac.

01:23:57 ◼   ► It just appears one day.

01:24:00 ◼   ► I'm intrigued to see what that will look like.

01:24:03 ◼   ► But, you know, basically where I am now is things,

01:24:07 ◼   ► the same things that annoyed me about the app

01:24:09 ◼   ► when I spoke about it first still do,

01:24:12 ◼   ► but I have come to value the features that they've added.

01:24:16 ◼   ► I just -- So, really, I stick by my initial things.

01:24:19 ◼   ► I wish they could have just added these features

01:24:22 ◼   ► without needing to get all high and mighty

01:24:24 ◼   ► about how to do your e-mail, right?

01:24:27 ◼   ► And also, I wished that they would have waited

01:24:29 ◼   ► until the Mac app was ready before they did all of this stuff because I mean it's still not ready

01:24:36 ◼   ► like it crashes on me a lot so it's very good that it saves drafts pretty well you know it crashes on

01:24:43 ◼   ► me a lot but they're adding in the features that I want but again they're features that should have

01:24:50 ◼   ► always been there yeah yeah the the mismatch of those versions really blows my mind yeah it's

01:24:57 ◼   ► very strange. It is very, very strange. I mean, you want your life coaching in your

01:25:02 ◼   ► email app on all your devices, you know? That's true. That's true. Give me give me

01:25:06 ◼   ► those inspirational quotes. The last bit of follow-up I have broke as we were

01:25:11 ◼   ► recording in the Discord for Relay FM members. So Jamie Bloomberg is working on

01:25:18 ◼   ► a project called the Passionate App and you can go check it out on GitHub and it

01:25:25 ◼   ► It is built in Swift Playgrounds using the Rickies.net API, which we talked about a few

01:25:31 ◼   ► weeks ago that Jason's been working on.

01:25:34 ◼   ► And you'll be able to get all of your Rickies and annual picks and everything all in an

01:25:42 ◼   ► app, hopefully in the future.

01:25:43 ◼   ► So I'm going to check this out after the show.

01:25:44 ◼   ► I didn't want to download it when we're recording, but I'm very excited about this.

01:25:48 ◼   ► So that's coming up soon, right?

01:25:50 ◼   ► The Annies?

01:25:51 ◼   ► well so the annies are the annual review oh yeah the annies is the is the review

01:26:00 ◼   ► of the year that is also coming up though that is coming up and then also

01:26:04 ◼   ► the annual picks are coming up right yes both things okay it's a busy time

01:26:09 ◼   ► between now and the end of the year mm-hmm but this is gonna be cool so I'm

01:26:14 ◼   ► gonna be keeping down this and excited to see where it goes mm-hmm so I think

01:26:18 ◼   ► I think that does it for the regular episode this week.

01:26:22 ◼   ► Again, we hope you enjoyed what was going to be the pro show.

01:26:26 ◼   ► We put that in first for everybody.

01:26:29 ◼   ► So if you want to hear more about that

01:26:31 ◼   ► or that type of thing, giverelay.com,

01:26:34 ◼   ► that sale runs through the end of the week.

01:26:35 ◼   ► - You did do a good job there.

01:26:37 ◼   ► That was a bad job.

01:26:38 ◼   ► - I mean, do you want to do it this time?

01:26:40 ◼   ► - You brought this energy.

01:26:41 ◼   ► You brought this energy.

01:26:42 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

01:26:43 ◼   ► I was just trying my best

01:26:45 ◼   ► and then you started criticizing me in front of everyone.

01:26:48 ◼   ► You know?

01:26:49 ◼   ► So now I'm doing it back.

01:26:51 ◼   ► This is where we are.

01:26:52 ◼   ► Yes.

01:26:53 ◼   ► If you are a member though, we're going to do a post-show just for you.

01:26:56 ◼   ► In the meantime, if you want to find links to stuff we spoke about, head on over to the

01:26:59 ◼   ► website at relay.fm/connected/428.

01:27:04 ◼   ► While you're there, you can send us feedback via email.

01:27:07 ◼   ► And again, you can become a member, giverelay.com between now and the 17th.

01:27:12 ◼   ► The annual plan is 20% off.

01:27:15 ◼   ► I'd like our sponsors this week.

01:27:17 ◼   ► They are Trade Coffee, Capital One, and Bombas.

01:27:21 ◼   ► And until next time, Myke, say goodbye.

01:27:24 ◼   ► - Cheerio.