421: The Shins (The Body Part)


00:00:00   (upbeat music)

00:00:02   Hello and welcome to Connected episode 421, Blaze It One.

00:00:13   My name is Steven Hackett and before I introduce my co-host,

00:00:18   I should tell you who sponsored this episode.

00:00:20   Our excellent sponsors are Trade Coffee, Indeed,

00:00:23   and CleanMyMac X.

00:00:24   I'm very happy to be joined by Mr. Myke Hurley.

00:00:28   - You got thrown off by saying Blaze It, didn't you?

00:00:29   I did, yeah. You know, it's hard to focus sometimes.

00:00:33   It happens to the best of us.

00:00:34   Yeah.

00:00:35   And I have the pleasure, as always, by being joined by Federico Vitigi. Hi Federico.

00:00:40   Hello, how are you?

00:00:41   Ooh, good.

00:00:42   Just busting out of there.

00:00:44   We have an interesting show today, I think.

00:00:47   Interesting.

00:00:47   It's gonna be a real rollercoaster. There's ups and downs on today's show.

00:00:51   Isn't that always? Isn't that always the case? No?

00:00:54   Yeah, I guess.

00:00:56   More than usual, maybe? Okay.

00:00:58   Yeah, I think like so I put some I think I put like a lot of the structure and would

00:01:04   sell a structure round of our document today and I tried to balance the show in an up down

00:01:12   momentum. We'll see how that ends up. But that was my intention of like it's going to

00:01:18   go like up down, up down, up down. We'll see what happens at the end.

00:01:23   So we can't roll dice for topics this week.

00:01:26   I mean we can if you want to. As soon as I said it, I was like, "Oh, he's gonna do it."

00:01:30   No, no, no. I think I traumatized you too badly last time to do it again.

00:01:34   Well, as I said to you before, if you ever want to do that again, the ads will not be

00:01:38   included.

00:01:39   That was incredible.

00:01:41   Yeah. We were lucky. We were just lucky.

00:01:43   Our sponsors, we work with cool companies, you know? They're down with the Japes.

00:01:47   I know. I know. But, you know, there are contracts.

00:01:52   Yeah.

00:01:53   Anyway.

00:01:54   That's for Kerry to sort out.

00:01:55   Contracts schmund. You can't tie me down that really contracts

00:01:59   Just call our attorney and they'll figure it out. Yo John

00:02:05   Call him. Yeah

00:02:09   From Chris to Steven. Hello as a noted and notable Apple collector and historian

00:02:17   Do you maintain a collection of Apple dongles?

00:02:20   Will you be hunting down the new Apple pencil first gen to lightning to USB to iPad 10th gen pairing and charging dongle thing

00:02:28   To add to your collection Chris. I think you made that more complicated than was no, it's perfect

00:02:32   No, no going back and will you ever do a calendar devoted to Apple cables chargers and don't loss

00:02:39   The funding that calendar I'm officially out of ideas

00:02:42   So I do have a lot of dongles so a couple of years ago

00:02:49   Underscore mailed me a package with some stuff in it and included in it was a

00:02:54   bunch of dongles that he thought I should have in my collection which is

00:02:56   really funny because I cut the box open they like spilled out like confetti but

00:03:01   I would say most the dongles I have are because I used them right so I have like

00:03:04   a function yeah yeah so as a functional dongle collection so I have like a

00:03:08   little baggie of a bunch of Thunderbolt one and two stuff that I used you know

00:03:12   back in those days and I have a bunch of firewire stuff because I used that back

00:03:15   in the day. So I feel like I own a lot of this stuff, but it's because I've used it,

00:03:20   not like I'm going out and getting it specifically for collection purposes.

00:03:26   You know, other things fall into that category, but I don't think dongles do.

00:03:29   I can send you the Blightning 2 USB-C thing. I mean, I won't give it back to

00:03:37   Apple, whatever. Like I'll say, "Oh, I lost it," and you know, they will not get upset.

00:03:42   You just said here. Oh, no, they don't listen to this. They skip the follow up. Nobody will

00:03:48   know. Everybody does.

00:03:51   Look, I donated it to a cause, you know? Do you really want to get upset knowing that

00:03:58   I donated a review unit dongle to noted and notable?

00:04:02   You could say this guy collected and donated all of the iMac G3s to the Henry Ford Museum.

00:04:09   you do that? You could say that to Apple. PR did you do that? How much money did you

00:04:13   raise for St. Jude Apple? Exactly. Do you hate kids and Henry Ford? I don't think I

00:04:18   can't go down that road too far. Why have you two gone down? What does that got to do

00:04:21   with it? That's going to do with anything with what I said. I don't know. Why are we

00:04:25   talking about St. Jude now? Hypothetically, if they get upset, we'll get upset. Double

00:04:30   the amount, you know, like if someone gets the secret. Look, let me tell you a life hack.

00:04:36   The secret in any argument in life, if you upset anybody, the trick is to get upset twice

00:04:43   the amount they are upset. Like someone criticizes you, you criticize them back twice. In any

00:04:51   argument, anybody, someone yells at you in traffic, you yell back at them and the passenger.

00:04:58   Like this feels like a uniquely Italian endeavor here, right?

00:05:04   The person who wins is the person who is most upset.

00:05:07   What did the passenger do to you?

00:05:09   They're just arguing for the ride.

00:05:11   They are complicit to the person yelling at you.

00:05:15   It's just, you gotta assess your dominance.

00:05:17   Yeah, they stood by, didn't they?

00:05:18   And just let it happen.

00:05:20   Yeah.

00:05:21   Have you ever been in the situation

00:05:22   where you're with somebody and like they get an argument

00:05:26   or they're just like fired up about something

00:05:28   and you're just kind of standing there?

00:05:30   Yes, it's so awkward.

00:05:32   It's awkward.

00:05:33   I tend to be the person in the argument.

00:05:36   Yeah.

00:05:37   Yeah.

00:05:38   Yeah.

00:05:39   Anyway.

00:05:40   Anyways.

00:05:41   Yes.

00:05:42   I like noteworthy.

00:05:43   What do you say?

00:05:44   Noted and notable.

00:05:45   I like that a lot.

00:05:46   That's that feels good.

00:05:47   Collector and historian.

00:05:49   They're like two separate things.

00:05:51   Hang on.

00:05:52   Edit note.

00:05:53   I'm going to move that thing to its own little thing.

00:05:56   Did you just play the quiz sound?

00:05:58   Yeah, he did with his mouth.

00:06:00   Just like I could find it on the edit.

00:06:02   (clapping)

00:06:03   Edit this part, Steven.

00:06:05   Okay.

00:06:06   Do you want the sound?

00:06:07   I could just give you the sound.

00:06:07   (squeaking)

00:06:08   No, I don't want a quiz.

00:06:09   I don't have one prepared, don't worry.

00:06:11   Okay, thank goodness.

00:06:12   I just, I moved the Halloween thing down to its own thing.

00:06:15   Okay.

00:06:16   Our friends at Kraft, do we have friends at Kraft?

00:06:18   I feel like they're friendly people.

00:06:20   Oh yeah, well, they are friendly people.

00:06:22   Okay.

00:06:23   Good people.

00:06:23   Kraft 2.3.7 is out and it has a bunch of stuff

00:06:28   to do with tables.

00:06:29   So Kraft added tables a while back.

00:06:32   And they were pretty basic, they were pretty simple

00:06:34   at the beginning, and they've really focused on them.

00:06:37   So now, tables can do a lot of, like just wild stuff.

00:06:42   So they have basic formulas, so you can count,

00:06:47   you can add, you can do the averages,

00:06:50   and there's like a list of them in this blog post.

00:06:53   So you can use it like a little spreadsheet.

00:06:55   You can now sort a table, which is awesome,

00:06:59   and they've got some more formatting stuff for tables.

00:07:02   So I'm excited about this.

00:07:04   I've kind of been thinking that maybe I go back to Kraft.

00:07:08   I've kind of heard its call again and--

00:07:11   - From what?

00:07:11   - From Notes.

00:07:12   Everything's in Notes right now.

00:07:14   - Wait, you were in Kraft though.

00:07:15   - Yeah, and then I went back to Notes.

00:07:17   - And now you wanna go back to Kraft again?

00:07:19   - I'm kind of thinking about it.

00:07:20   I mean, it's the same. - Wow, send you a flip flop.

00:07:22   Back again, everyone.

00:07:24   - Look, I've been, as we were talking about on the Pro Show,

00:07:27   I'm just in the depths of shipping my calendar

00:07:30   and I keep thinking maybe I should change Notes apps.

00:07:32   Maybe I should change task managers.

00:07:34   - See, this is like a treat.

00:07:36   You're like, I want a treat for me, you know?

00:07:38   - I love it, yeah.

00:07:39   That's something you do for you.

00:07:40   Like switching notes apps or switching task managers,

00:07:43   it's like self therapy.

00:07:44   It's something you do for you, you know?

00:07:47   I get it.

00:07:47   - Daddy gets a treat, you know?

00:07:50   - Every hundred calendars,

00:07:52   I get to switch something in my workflow.

00:07:53   - Yeah.

00:07:54   - But this is cool.

00:07:57   And I would like to see Apple Notes do more with the tables.

00:08:01   - That's a treat.

00:08:03   (laughing)

00:08:03   - It's Daddy's special note taking.

00:08:05   - Daddy gets the nib nib.

00:08:06   (laughing)

00:08:08   - Did you guys see, I said the picture of you,

00:08:10   but Austin, friend of the show, Austin Evans,

00:08:13   got the nib nib dog in an episode of Mystery Tech.

00:08:16   - It was horrifying.

00:08:17   - It was so good, I'll find it.

00:08:19   Put it in the shot.

00:08:20   - Yeah, it was horrifying.

00:08:21   I mean, what a good series, but that was upsetting.

00:08:24   - Mystery Tech is the best.

00:08:25   - But I would like Apple to do more of this sort of stuff

00:08:29   in tables because most of the time, I don't know about y'all,

00:08:32   most of the time I don't need a full blown

00:08:34   like Excel spreadsheet, right?

00:08:35   I just need something where I can like copy

00:08:38   in some invoice numbers and amounts

00:08:39   and do like quick math on those, right?

00:08:41   Like make sure that the, you know,

00:08:42   what people owe us and what they pay us is the same, right?

00:08:44   Simple things.

00:08:46   And I find myself going to numbers

00:08:48   or like Excel or Google sheets.

00:08:49   Like sometimes I just wanna do that in a note, right?

00:08:52   Like I just wanna be able to put something together

00:08:54   and not have to reference something external.

00:08:57   And I think this is, I just think it's really cool.

00:08:59   I was really happy to see this release this week.

00:09:02   - I was overjoyed 'cause I wanted this from the beginning.

00:09:06   I use it to keep track of some sales stuff

00:09:09   and just having, 'cause basically I have to sit,

00:09:14   obviously I use Peacock for this.

00:09:15   James has been very helpful.

00:09:17   Like I said, I take one number and then another number,

00:09:19   what's the difference between these two numbers?

00:09:21   And now I can just very easily get it to work.

00:09:25   Well, I don't think they have a feature in the app,

00:09:27   know like in numbers or in Excel like you can take the formula and drag it

00:09:31   down to copy it through cells yeah that's really cool but it they don't

00:09:34   have that but if you just copy and paste the formula it kind of preserves the

00:09:40   logical formatting not it doesn't like you know what I mean so if you're like

00:09:45   you'll see what I mean when you get there I cannot explain how spreadsheets

00:09:48   work on it's a that's a difficult thing to talk about on a an audio program it's

00:09:55   very good. There is a setting in sleep++ to change your nightly sleep goal.

00:09:59   Oh good. Okay. Underscore text me and told me. Good tech support that guy. Yeah.

00:10:06   Sleep++ is the best. I've been enjoying looking at my readiness score

00:10:09   every day. How's that going? Do you have some numbers you'd be willing to share

00:10:12   with us? I mean what do you want? How much did it have? Give us some

00:10:16   like sleep hours because I did that last week. Give us content so we can judge you. Oh it's like I slept

00:10:23   six and a half hours last night, six hours, 11 minutes the night before, 557 Sunday night.

00:10:31   I got eight hours sleep on Saturday.

00:10:33   Yes, son!

00:10:34   Wow, okay.

00:10:35   And eight hours sleep on Friday night.

00:10:37   So like, I woke up late on Saturday, woke up late on Sunday.

00:10:42   Six hours, 50 Thursday, seven hours.

00:10:44   So basically in the week, I'm like six to seven hours sleep.

00:10:49   On the weekends, I might get like eight hours sleep.

00:10:52   night I slept a Myke Hurley amount of time six hours and 18 minutes which was

00:10:57   not good but Saturday I slept nine hours and five minutes apparently okay that's

00:11:02   too much my readiness I was 72 on the readiness scale today yeah ready for

00:11:11   rock and roll baby so you how are you feeling about it a couple weeks in like

00:11:15   you feel like it's something you're going to do moving forward yeah the

00:11:18   alarms really good too yeah like having the alarm on the phone and the watch at

00:11:22   the same time it actually really helps me wake up good yeah and if you're you

00:11:26   know if your partner's asleep it's just on your wrist right it's kind of nice

00:11:29   yeah but we wake up at the same time there you go one up above up you know

00:11:34   what I mean Federico's sage manager article is up hmm I thought we'd cover

00:11:40   some different things today cuz like it's a fantastic oh I actually believe

00:11:44   enough it I read I've read all of that and all of your iPad review can you

00:11:47   believe what I read it all I've read all of it thank you that's good I very much

00:11:52   enjoyed it it feels like you know a lot of it is if you've been listening to the

00:11:56   show over the last three months you will have heard pieces of this right but this

00:12:00   is a fantastic kind of summary of the whole thing there was some stuff that I

00:12:04   did know stuff that I didn't know I think one thing that I really enjoyed

00:12:07   and I'm happy that you did it is basically listing all your grievances at

00:12:11   the end like even though it's repeating some of it of kind of just like what

00:12:16   that will be is a great resource for you over time.

00:12:19   So like every time they release that, they fix any of these things.

00:12:22   Nope. All right. Carry on.

00:12:23   Yeah. Check things off the list. Yeah, exactly.

00:12:25   The thought that I had and I'm sure this wasn't your intention, but I was like,

00:12:28   that's a screenshot that can get passed around inside Apple.

00:12:31   You don't have to read this whole article.

00:12:33   Here's the problem. Look at this punch list this guy put together.

00:12:35   Part of the reason why I did it.

00:12:37   What I wanted to know,

00:12:41   maybe, you know, just to kind of talk the matter of the article,

00:12:45   What was the response like?

00:12:47   - The response has been like, in terms of numbers,

00:12:50   very, very good, more so than I hoped.

00:12:55   Obviously, like, even if you look at the number of likes,

00:12:58   for example, in the story, this is not an iOS 16 level,

00:13:02   iOS 16 review level kind of like traffic and exposure.

00:13:07   That's to be expected for a couple of reasons.

00:13:09   First, this is not a full review of iPadOS.

00:13:11   Second, people care less about iPadOS than iOS.

00:13:15   just the nature, you know, the majority of the features and changes are in iOS 16, that's

00:13:20   what people want to read in September. But the response, what I was, I was expecting

00:13:28   to get more criticism for disliking Stage Manager. And I was kind of concerned, you

00:13:37   know, well, what happens if, you know, The Verge or 9to5 or MacRumors, they link back

00:13:43   to the story, which they did, they've been so kind, and especially, you know, Joe at

00:13:47   MacRumors wrote about it. You know, what if I get, you know, do I want to really read

00:13:52   the comments and open the comments? Or on Reddit, you know, all the usual places. And

00:13:57   I actually, I did go read the comments, and they were all surprisingly in agreement. Like,

00:14:04   usually I get, like, really blasted by a few people, like, you know, who genuinely, genuinely

00:14:12   dislike me, and it's fine, but in this case, like, it really highlights, I think, just

00:14:19   the amount of issues that folks have with Stage Manager. That's not to say that I didn't

00:14:25   get, you know, comments from folks who are liking Stage Manager, and that's totally fair,

00:14:32   totally fair, and I think, like I said in the story, when it works, when Stage Manager

00:14:38   does what it's supposed to do. There are those moments when it feels really nice, like using

00:14:44   four apps at the same time. It's cool. But I went into this kind of feeling like I was

00:14:51   not, like on Monday, I was not looking forward to publishing this article at all. Like usually

00:14:56   for my iOS 16 review, there's that mix of anticipation, excitement, we're doing a bunch

00:15:02   of extra perks. And this one, I felt like going into it, that it was like finally going

00:15:08   to the dentist after booking an appointment five months prior. I was like, yeah, I'm,

00:15:14   I'm doing this, I guess, you know, let's just get it over with. That's how I was feeling

00:15:18   on Monday. And I published a story, closed my iPad and immediately drove back from Viterbo

00:15:23   to Rome. So I didn't even like keep an eye on, on the immediate comments. And I figured,

00:15:29   you know, when I'm, when I'm back home tonight, I'm going to get a bunch of, you know, negative

00:15:34   comments and stuff and emails and whatnot. And that didn't happen. And instead it went

00:15:39   really well. People seem to be really into the technical analysis and, like you guys

00:15:45   said, the list of grievances at the end. That format seems to work really well for people.

00:15:52   And so it went surprisingly well, even though I should say emotionally, like myself, this

00:15:59   This is not a story that I was excited about.

00:16:02   Of course.

00:16:03   It was something that I felt like I needed to do, that I think was important to do, but

00:16:07   it doesn't make me happy.

00:16:09   It's not even the fun anger.

00:16:11   Like sometimes, you could be mad about something on a show or you can write an article and

00:16:17   like there's like an element of excitement about being annoyed about it.

00:16:21   Like you want to rant about it, you want to go off about it, right?

00:16:23   It's just like, yeah.

00:16:24   It's like the, it's like the theater of it, you know?

00:16:27   Yeah.

00:16:28   The problem is this has been going on too long. I think that's the issue.

00:16:31   Yeah. Yes. Yes.

00:16:32   Like if they, if they just dropped stage manager, like all of a sudden one day,

00:16:36   then you wrote an article about it. Like that would be a fun article to write,

00:16:40   you know, because it's like, Oh my God, what on earth were they thinking here?

00:16:45   This thing is so broken and they've just released it.

00:16:47   So like you've been dealing with this for like the best part of five months and

00:16:51   it's just not really changed in the ways that you want it to change.

00:16:54   So it's like, there's no,

00:16:56   all the fun's been sucked out of it and it's just like,

00:16:59   and it also is like an obligation

00:17:01   that you kind of put yourself into

00:17:03   for like all the good reasons, like, you know,

00:17:07   going back, you wouldn't change anything as such

00:17:09   because like you just wouldn't think to change anything.

00:17:12   'Cause it's like, well, of course I'm gonna write a story

00:17:14   about iPadOS.

00:17:15   And especially if they're gonna delay this thing,

00:17:17   surely they're gonna fix some of the issues I'm having.

00:17:20   But so there's just, I don't think there's much joy

00:17:23   you can extract from writing something like this.

00:17:25   Yeah, no, no there wasn't. But it was still important to...

00:17:29   It's the job, man.

00:17:30   Thank you, thank you. It was important to put it out, if anything, because at least for me,

00:17:36   it just, you know, it becomes this sort of historical document where at this moment in time,

00:17:42   like frozen in time, I can see all the things I didn't like, all the things that maybe were working

00:17:48   in the first release, and all the things that were not working so well. And so it's out there,

00:17:53   it's done. I know that it's been, you know, at Apple, I know that this is, you know, being

00:18:01   discussed, let's say, and we'll see what happens. I guess, I mean, I don't think, obviously

00:18:08   I don't think that a single article can change anything. It's not like, you know, it's not

00:18:14   really that I'm like Moses coming down from the mountain with the tablets and this is

00:18:19   like "I bring you forth the new laws." Like, no, that's not what I'm... Like, a single

00:18:24   article cannot change anything. But I think it can encapsulate, maybe, a broader feeling

00:18:30   of the general public. And in this case, I think it's pretty representative of the power

00:18:36   user audience of iPad Pro. So it becomes, you know, a handy list of things, maybe. But

00:18:46   But then it's ultimately it's up to the people, you know, the millions of folks using stage

00:18:51   manager to tell Apple, here's the things we like, here's the things we don't like.

00:18:57   And we'll see what happens.

00:18:58   I did my job.

00:18:59   I'm really keen to think about other stuff now.

00:19:04   But what about you, Krat, because I was 16.2, which we'll talk about in a minute, but like

00:19:10   it's just kind of funny.

00:19:11   Like, here it is, it's done.

00:19:13   "Uh, here's another beta! Haha! They got you!"

00:19:17   This will be an ongoing conversation, but it's easier for point updates.

00:19:23   And hopefully, it'll be like...

00:19:27   Because in this story we're talking about all the things that are broken,

00:19:30   and hopefully, like, if this is the bottom of the barrel,

00:19:36   like, hopefully we'll start improving and go up from here on out.

00:19:42   Like, if this is, you know, the "Okay, this is bad,"

00:19:47   hopefully from now on it'll be more fun

00:19:51   to talk about the things that Apple is changing

00:19:53   or they are adding or, you know,

00:19:55   they're tweaking and improving.

00:19:57   It'll be a different vibe, hopefully.

00:20:00   So that's the hope.

00:20:03   - So over the years, we've had a lot of cool stuff happen

00:20:06   around the show.

00:20:07   We've gotten to do live shows with audiences.

00:20:09   Tim Cook stood in front of our artwork at WWDC. Mr. Viticci has been in the New York Times a couple

00:20:15   of times which we take shared credit for. I'm not really sure what that's included.

00:20:19   @charlie_ray on Twitter has a new high for me. Charlie apparently every year does a lot of

00:20:28   Halloween lights at their house and he emailed me a while back and said hey I'd like to have

00:20:34   a song so people can tune in on the radio and listen and I'd like it to be y'all introducing

00:20:40   the show and like having an introduction to an episode of Connected. So we recorded it

00:20:46   and there's a link in the show notes to a tweet. I actually think it's the top link in the show

00:20:50   notes so you can find it easily. Go watch this because it is incredible. I just feel sorry for

00:20:57   everyone in Charlie's neighborhood. Yeah, I wanna, I would be, I'm curious to know sort of the

00:21:04   logistics of this, like does this go off at regular intervals at night, like and what time? No, no, no,

00:21:12   no, no. It's broadcast over a radio frequency. So if you see on the, in the video, there's a little

00:21:20   thing that's just tuned in at something. Oh, tuned to. You tune your radio to that frequency and then

00:21:25   then you can listen to it. Can you imagine if that was just blasting on the hour every

00:21:29   hour for the whole of October? Maybe a couple of times, maybe on Halloween

00:21:34   day maybe you could do it on speakers or something. But this is just wild, you know. I just love

00:21:43   Steven as a pumpkin. Thank you. Steven the pumpkin.

00:21:47   It really suits you, man. The pumpkin look. Pumpkin life.

00:21:51   Yeah, y'all are trees and I'm a pumpkin. It's fantastic

00:21:56   Thank you Charlie for including us in your amazing holiday

00:22:01   Extravaganza and I'm sorry for everybody you have to explain it to yes

00:22:05   Yeah, so he sent me email with the link to it when it was done and he was like as I was taking this video

00:22:09   What somebody was driving by just like staring at me. Yeah, but

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00:24:36   and relay FM

00:24:38   It is iPad review season

00:24:42   Federico, you got your hands on the new iPad and iPad Pro. You

00:24:48   reviewed them together, which I think is really interesting. I'd

00:24:51   like to hear kind of your thoughts about about that

00:24:54   because it's not super often we get the very low end and very

00:24:58   high end of any product line updated the same time. But they

00:25:01   did that this time, which of course brings questions about

00:25:04   some of the decisions. I like to start with the iPad Pro.

00:25:08   Essentially the same as before, but with the M2, we talked about

00:25:12   kind of the news side of it last week. How does this device strike you? And I want to

00:25:16   hear about your time with Pencil Hover in particular.

00:25:20   Well, obviously it's kind of a boring update, right? It's for more than almost exactly four

00:25:28   years I believe that we have the same design. Jason talked about this in the latest episode

00:25:34   of upgrade, it's kind of boring and perplexing that we're still stuck with this design from

00:25:43   2018, which you would assume was actually created inside Apple in 2016 or 2017, before

00:25:52   the actual release in 2018. So, at this point, a good way to sum up this iPad Pro would be,

00:25:59   Look, we get it.

00:26:01   Like, this is the fourth version, third, fourth version of this design, with no changes, no

00:26:08   additional USB-C port, no changes to wireless charging or MagSafe, as was rumored, no landscape

00:26:17   camera.

00:26:18   So it's a boring update.

00:26:19   I guess they really wanted to get the M.2 spec bump in there.

00:26:24   I wouldn't know what else to say, but Apple Pencil Hover did surprise me.

00:26:30   And I'm actually, like, it sort of reignited something for me, which is like just the pleasure

00:26:37   of using the iPad Pro as a tablet, which I've realized over the past couple of days that

00:26:44   it's not something that I've really done for a while.

00:26:46   I think for the past two years, two and a half years actually, I've used the iPad Pro

00:26:51   always inside the Magic Keyboard with the trackpad.

00:26:55   And I had kind of forgotten how pleasant it is

00:26:59   to use an iPad as a tablet in touch mode.

00:27:02   And with Apple Pencil Hover, it becomes really fun,

00:27:07   because now not only do I get the touch interactions,

00:27:10   I'm one of those people who,

00:27:11   if I gotta use the Apple Pencil,

00:27:13   I wanna use it to control the iPadOS UI.

00:27:17   And so I disabled the setting

00:27:19   for "Use Apple Pencil only for drawing,"

00:27:22   which is a setting that you have in the Settings app.

00:27:25   I like to control iPadOS with the Pencil

00:27:27   if I have an Apple Pencil.

00:27:29   And now, when I'm, like, say that I'm laying on the couch

00:27:33   or in bed and I got the iPad Pro in front of me,

00:27:36   the Apple Pencil is very convenient,

00:27:39   because it's, this is gonna sound ridiculous,

00:27:42   but bear with me, it's like having a super long finger.

00:27:45   - Oh, that's disgusting.

00:27:48   But I can just point at the screen with the pencil.

00:27:50   I hate that.

00:27:51   And it's like I have a super long index finger.

00:27:54   Stop saying it.

00:27:56   You said it once, all right?

00:27:58   You don't need to keep saying it.

00:27:59   But it is that.

00:28:01   You know?

00:28:02   And now, not only do I get the touch controls,

00:28:06   but I also get the hover effects.

00:28:08   So it's like having a--

00:28:09   I'm sorry, Myke.

00:28:10   But it's like having a super long finger that can hover

00:28:13   in addition to touch.

00:28:15   So, yeah, but that's the thing.

00:28:19   This is a very minor and super niche thing.

00:28:25   Does it really justify going from an M1 to an M2 iPad Pro?

00:28:30   No.

00:28:31   Like, if you bought an M1 iPad Pro last year,

00:28:35   you don't need this.

00:28:36   And arguably, even if you have an A12X or an A12Z--

00:28:41   God bless the A12Z, by the way.

00:28:43   Oh, that's just hard.

00:28:45   Such a fantastic upgrade.

00:28:48   But arguably-

00:28:50   I call that one.

00:28:51   I know.

00:28:52   Arguably, do you even,

00:28:53   do you need to upgrade from one of those?

00:28:55   No.

00:28:56   No, unless, I would say unless,

00:28:59   you're looking forward to stage manager

00:29:02   and external display support,

00:29:04   which is gonna be exclusive to the M1 and M2 models.

00:29:07   But if you just wanna use your iPad

00:29:09   as a single screen experience,

00:29:12   you probably don't even need to upgrade to the M2 or M1 or M2 versions.

00:29:17   Question for you, question for you, something just popped into my head, right?

00:29:20   This is a mostly uninspiring iPad model, right?

00:29:23   And, you know, there's a possibility of something greater down the road.

00:29:28   Do you think that there is a possibility, like there was a thought at least at Apple,

00:29:32   which was like, oh, it will be okay that this one isn't going to have anything major,

00:29:36   because there will be people that will want to update so they get access to Stage Manager,

00:29:41   that now won't happen because people rallied and made them put Stage Manager on non-M chips.

00:29:50   So it's kind of now that decision probably will hurt the sales of this model of the iPad.

00:29:57   That's a good point because you would imagine that if Stage Manager was exclusive to the M1,

00:30:03   then you release the M2 and you say "oh and this one also has Stage Manager" so you're giving people

00:30:08   more options, but now like that decision that you had to reverse in the summer, it affects the

00:30:16   marketing of this one. And also it doesn't happen that this iPad Pro is coming out and there's all

00:30:20   kinds of criticisms surrounding Stage Manager. Because then it could have been like what you

00:30:25   just said, like there's no... if you have the A12X or the A12Z, there's no point in upgrading.

00:30:32   You would sell it, you know, you would say "oh you gotta upgrade" because this is for Stage Manager.

00:30:37   But that whole narrative is gone.

00:30:41   And so, and the one thing that you could have used as an asterisk, meaning, but it's got

00:30:48   external display support, it's not shipping yet.

00:30:50   So like, if all the things that could have gone wrong for Apple have gone wrong for Apple

00:30:56   here, I think, and so the net result is a very boring and uninspired iPad Pro update

00:31:02   with Apple Pencil Hover, which is exactly how I approached this in the review. Hence

00:31:08   why I wanted to have a single story, because the iPad Pro part, besides the Apple Pencil

00:31:13   stuff, was pretty easy to do. One final thing that I didn't have in the review because I

00:31:18   thought of this today, I saw the rumors, I guess maybe, are we talking about this later

00:31:24   in the show? No, I don't think we are. But there's, you know, a 14-inch iPad Pro was

00:31:30   rumored before. Today, and stay with me with this one because I also have a related theory,

00:31:37   today a report from The Information came out saying that Apple may be actually also releasing

00:31:44   a 16-inch iPad Pro by late next year. Parenthesis. Isn't it funny that as, you know, with all

00:31:54   this bad press for stage manager. This report comes out this week about an even bigger iPad

00:32:01   Pro where you would imagine that stage manager makes a lot of sense. Close parenthesis. It

00:32:07   was like every time we get mad at Apple, the iPad gets bigger. Yeah, exactly. This is like,

00:32:13   we'll show you like 75 inches. Now you don't like stage manager on this 92 inch iPad. Right?

00:32:21   You don't like it now?

00:32:23   It'd be a shame if your iPad got any bigger, wouldn't it?

00:32:25   Oh, but it should be a real shame.

00:32:28   Keep talking and it gets bigger.

00:32:30   It's a 16 inch iPad.

00:32:32   It only runs stage manager.

00:32:34   How do you like me now?

00:32:35   Yeah, imagine slide over on a 16 inch iPad.

00:32:39   You have to use your whole arm.

00:32:40   It would be helpful if you had some sort of like

00:32:43   long finger maybe.

00:32:44   Yeah, a really long finger.

00:32:47   Really long finger.

00:32:49   But what was I saying?

00:32:51   - I lost my train of thought.

00:32:51   - Your new idea about the iPad.

00:32:54   - Yes, what if this is the last iPad Pro

00:32:59   that we get in the 12.9 form factor?

00:33:04   What if they really wanted to get the M2 in there

00:33:08   because this is it for this form factor?

00:33:12   And by this time, well, maybe by this time next year,

00:33:16   the iPad Pro line will be more akin

00:33:19   the MacBook Pro line with 14", 16". So, you know, you have MacBook Pro 14, MacBook Pro 16,

00:33:27   iPad Pro 14, iPad Pro 16. And then you have, you know, the middle line up. Maybe, hey, I'm just

00:33:33   spitballing here, but maybe the middle line up, the iPad Air becomes officially like the middle

00:33:39   of the line up with iPad Air 11", iPad Air 12.9". I feel like they wouldn't add another size model.

00:33:46   I feel like it would be like iPad Air 11 and then iPad Pro at 14 and 16.

00:33:54   And there was also like the rumor is it's going to go to OLED too at 2024.

00:33:59   So we could be looking at 2024 is the next iPad Pro revision, which would

00:34:03   actually be roughly on time, right?

00:34:05   And it would be 14, 16, OLED, a bunch of other stuff.

00:34:10   Imagine that.

00:34:11   And they become like a whole different thing.

00:34:14   because I mean look at that iPad Air right it's it is basically the iPad Pro

00:34:20   mm-hmm like at this point the things that are different see if you can correct

00:34:25   me if I'm wrong Federico it's like how much storage can it go in it yes hover

00:34:29   and promotion three is there anything else I think that's it

00:34:36   no I was gonna say RAM but no because the air has the m1 no that's it storage

00:34:42   promotion Apple pencil hover you know Wi-Fi 6c if you really want to stretch it

00:34:49   yeah but oh and uh face ID yeah I don't really consider for me I understand why

00:34:57   you said it that is definitely a difference I don't think it's a big

00:34:59   difference no I don't either it's a thing right yes definitely but like yeah

00:35:04   so okay that's that'd be interesting yeah it also explains why the 11 didn't

00:35:08   get the nice screen this time right? It's like the 11 seems not long for this world.

00:35:13   It's going away regardless. Yeah. Yeah. It's like they did it this time just for the sake of doing

00:35:18   it but really it's it this is not what is it this is not a product in our line what was that

00:35:24   Mac Mini thing remains a product? It remains a product in our lineup. Right it does but not for

00:35:29   much longer. What an incredible burn. I mean I could see them doing 14 and 16. I could also see

00:35:36   them doing just 12.9 and 14. But I don't know, it's interesting to think about. And this

00:35:43   is sort of one of the problems is the way that Apple updates, well, really all of its

00:35:48   products except the iPhone. And even sometimes the iPhone feels out of sync. But like clearly

00:35:54   there's a part two to this story that we just haven't seen. Right. And if it's 18 months

00:35:59   away, then you have a year and a half of awkwardness. Now, if Federico is right,

00:36:06   you know, maybe it's sooner than that. Maybe it's something like WWDC and there's a

00:36:10   new size class, you know, megawide or something. But I just, when you do this,

00:36:16   when you have this sort of, when you have long cycles and the products in the

00:36:20   lineup are off-cycle from each other, like, you end up in these awkward places

00:36:23   just all the time. And it's, it's baffling because, like, I mean, take supply chain

00:36:29   COVID off the table, like Apple's in control when these things come out, right?

00:36:33   It's not a surprise. I'm like, oh no, who launched the new base iPad? It's like, no,

00:36:37   we did. And some of this they bring on themselves in that way, you know? Yeah. But

00:36:44   the iPad seems pretty cool. The iPad, the base model iPad, is a weirdly good iPad.

00:36:54   And it's complicated, because it kinda is an iPad Air, but it doesn't have the M1.

00:37:04   It's $120 more expensive than the 9th generation iPad, which is sticking around at $329.

00:37:12   This one is $449, so it's above that $400 mental barrier of a price point.

00:37:21   But it's also $150 cheaper than an iPad Air.

00:37:25   It's basically the same enclosure.

00:37:28   It's slightly thicker than the iPad Air,

00:37:31   which is something that I also forgot to mention

00:37:33   in my review.

00:37:34   I don't know, Myke, you have an iPad Air, I think.

00:37:37   - Yeah, yeah.

00:37:39   - Have you noticed that it's,

00:37:41   when you hold it in your hands without a case,

00:37:44   without the cover on, the back of the iPad Air,

00:37:47   it kinda creaks a little?

00:37:49   - No.

00:37:50   Have you noticed that? Like, really? Yours doesn't?

00:37:55   I mean, I have it in a cover.

00:37:58   Yeah, take it out of the cover and try to hold it with your hands and with your fingers,

00:38:02   maybe in landscape or whatever, and touch on the Apple logo in the back.

00:38:07   Let me try that. You carry on. I'm going to go get this.

00:38:10   But because the iPad is slightly thicker than it, like 0.7mm, it doesn't creak. Or maybe

00:38:17   Maybe it's not related to the thickness, maybe it's just a design change.

00:38:20   That's something that I really dislike about the iPad Air, that when I hold it in my hands

00:38:23   as a tablet, it creaks a little.

00:38:26   And I mean, the color, obviously, super fun, super nice.

00:38:29   I got a blue review unit.

00:38:32   I think Jason got a yellow one, and he also liked the color.

00:38:36   So the colors are good.

00:38:38   And then there's the accessory story.

00:38:40   No creaking here.

00:38:41   No creaking for you.

00:38:43   No creaking.

00:38:44   No creaking.

00:38:45   Nice.

00:38:46   I'm jealous. My hair creaks.

00:38:48   Oh, damn.

00:38:49   The accessory story, which is, on one hand, bad for the Apple Pencil.

00:38:56   If you like the Apple Pencil 2, this is not an iPad I can recommend.

00:39:01   It uses the Apple Pencil 1.

00:39:03   It requires an adapter and a cable to pair and charge the pencil.

00:39:10   If you are a heavy Apple Pencil user and one would expect you like the second generation Apple Pencil,

00:39:18   you cannot get this iPad. It doesn't support it and it's not a good experience.

00:39:23   I have a thought about the Apple Pencil that I had when I was reading your review last night.

00:39:27   And, you know, I kind of stand by my point of like, I don't think it's a huge deal.

00:39:32   It's just like, whatever, you just make your decision.

00:39:34   And I think you and Jason just put it so perfectly of just like,

00:39:36   Look, if you know you're going to use it, just don't bother with this one, get the iPad

00:39:40   Air because it's just a better experience.

00:39:42   But the thing that I wanted to mention is, because I was reading your review and I was

00:39:46   reading the part about the, what is it, Magic Keyboard Folio, is that the name?

00:39:50   Terrible name, right?

00:39:51   Like I feel like they just threw darts at a dartboard and picked three words they've

00:39:56   used before.

00:39:57   Like it's so hard to like, in your mind, work out which product is which.

00:40:01   But they went to all this effort to make this keyboard, right?

00:40:05   and it is completely unique to this iPad and will probably never be used on another iPad.

00:40:11   It would just be on the iPad. It doesn't work on the other ones because the smart connector is in

00:40:15   a different place and the magic keyboard is clearly a better product, quote unquote,

00:40:21   like the whole idea of it. So they went to all this effort to make this keyboard that will only

00:40:28   ever be used on this iPad model. Why didn't they just change the pencil to USB-C?

00:40:34   Like, if you go to these incredible lengths to make this brand new device, why didn't

00:40:42   you... like, what's the goal here?

00:40:45   What are you doing with the Apple Pen?

00:40:47   It's like very weird.

00:40:48   You tell me, man.

00:40:50   I have no idea.

00:40:51   Very strange.

00:40:52   I don't understand.

00:40:53   I don't understand, you know, making an accessory that is exclusive to this iPad just so that...

00:41:04   I don't get it.

00:41:05   I get why they did the magic keyboard folio, right?

00:41:09   Sure. Right. If you think you're going to sell a bunch of these things, it is a cool

00:41:13   addition. And also, you know, if they would have made it compatible with the magic

00:41:16   keyboard, that's too much money.

00:41:17   It's too expensive based against this iPad.

00:41:20   Right. You can't say to someone, this iPad is $400 and this keyboard is $350.

00:41:26   It's like it's already too expensive anyway.

00:41:28   So like having a cheaper keyboard as a thing makes sense.

00:41:31   But then it's just like so weird to me of like you went to these incredible lengths, I bet, to make this thing

00:41:37   and they just didn't bother with the pencil. They just didn't bother with the pencil.

00:41:41   I don't, I kind of don't, I can't get my head around that one.

00:41:44   But when like next year, they keep this original Apple Pencil around,

00:41:48   which they probably will have to keep some version of it around.

00:41:52   Like they're getting rid of lightning and everything. It's very strange. I don't get it.

00:41:56   By releasing this iPad now with this Apple Pencil support and, you know,

00:42:00   for the first generation one, this is gonna stick around for a while, especially because

00:42:07   this new iPad is not replacing the iPad 9, so it'll be a slow ramp up until this one is the

00:42:16   default base model iPad and it goes down in price maybe two years from now, which means that it's

00:42:22   It's very likely, I think, that in three years, so let's say in 2024, 2025, is the iPad 10 still around?

00:42:31   I think so. I think it's gonna... You know, the iPad 9 will be phased out eventually,

00:42:37   the 10 will take its place at a reduced price point, which means that 2024, 2025,

00:42:43   there will still be some people out there connecting an Apple Pencil 1 from a decade before,

00:42:49   at that point from 2015 via a dongle and a cable to an iPad 10.

00:42:55   Unless they do change it, right? Before then.

00:42:57   Unless they make, or unless they make a pencil, a cheaper pencil with USB-C.

00:43:04   Which like, I do think they're going to do that, so I don't know why they didn't do it.

00:43:09   Maybe they just ran out of time, component shortage, but I don't know. It seems so odd.

00:43:16   It could be any of those things, right? It got deprioritized because of some other issue, right?

00:43:23   Yeah, and they're like, "Okay, well, this Apple Pencil with USB-C is not ready yet,

00:43:28   so in the meantime we'll give folks an adapter and they'll criticize us and we'll eat the cost

00:43:33   of those comments and we'll release the new versions of the Apple Pencils, you know,

00:43:40   Spring 2023, whatever.

00:43:42   Whenever is the right time for a new iPad narrative.

00:43:47   Now that I've sat and thought about it after reading your review,

00:43:50   like that's the conclusion that I come to of like,

00:43:53   this wasn't anything other than, for whatever reason, they couldn't do it.

00:43:59   Like, because just the amount of engineering time and effort and money

00:44:04   that went into making the Magic Keyboard, that decision, Magic Keyboard Folio,

00:44:08   That decision doesn't make sense to me if you then just ship an optional adapter for the Apple Pencil.

00:44:14   Yeah, but maybe...

00:44:15   Right, those two things do not... they just don't reconcile in my brain.

00:44:19   The risk of this is that this is also wishful thinking on our part,

00:44:23   because we're trying to find a meaning and maybe there isn't one.

00:44:29   I prefer my version of reality.

00:44:32   Sure. Well, of course you do.

00:44:34   Of course.

00:44:34   Doesn't everybody?

00:44:36   Yeah. One thing I want to mention about the folio, which, by the way, by the way,

00:44:43   this is totally excuse me for my parentheses, but this is how my brain works.

00:44:47   I just I went to the Apple store today to pick up a couple of things.

00:44:52   One of them was a regular smart folio for the iPad Pro for the twelve point nine

00:44:59   basic smart folio. You know, that cost one hundred and twenty five euros.

00:45:05   100, 125, Sylvia looked at me and was like, are you crazy?

00:45:13   125 euros.

00:45:14   So this is just the cover on the back and front.

00:45:17   The cover, just to use it as a tablet.

00:45:20   125 euros for a smart folio, black smart folio.

00:45:26   The second thing was the Belkin mount for continuity camera.

00:45:31   And I love this thing.

00:45:33   This is so cool.

00:45:34   Like, it attaches to the top of my MacBook.

00:45:38   You can also use it as a popsocket, you know, or fiddle around with it, as I am right now,

00:45:44   and I have been for the whole show.

00:45:45   So this thing is super cool.

00:45:47   34 euros, which is more acceptable for this.

00:45:49   Bunch of people wrote in to us there's some page on Apple's website somewhere where they

00:45:53   have a "coming soon for the studio display" one.

00:45:55   I was talking about it last week.

00:45:58   They are, Belkin are making one for the studio display as well.

00:46:02   thing about the Folio, the kickstand in the back. As we, I think, on the show were all

00:46:08   expecting, it was my fate to like this kickstand, and I'm so glad to report that fate was correct,

00:46:20   in that I love the kickstand, the adjustable kickstand of the Magic Keyboard Folio for

00:46:25   the base model iPad. I wish—my wish is for Apple to make a version of this that is not

00:46:34   a Magic Keyboard. Like, make this and this thing with the kickstand without the keyboard

00:46:40   part, but with, like, a folding cover for the front of the iPad. I just love this. Like,

00:46:48   to, you know, when you detach it from the keyboard, to put it on a desk or a table on

00:46:55   your lap. I listen to Upgrade and I know that Jason seems to be having a lot of problems

00:47:01   with balancing things on his lap. I don't know if it's because I have long legs. Well,

00:47:09   you know, we were just talking about the long finger.

00:47:12   Long fingers, long legs.

00:47:15   - So you need to be a true iPad user,

00:47:18   is long fingers and long legs.

00:47:19   - You need the long fingers and the long legs,

00:47:22   and therefore you cover all the bases, right?

00:47:25   Because you can touch the screen,

00:47:26   you can balance kickstands, that's the ideal,

00:47:29   that's the ideal body setup for an iPad power user.

00:47:34   But I should say that I have no big trouble

00:47:38   balancing the kickstand on my lap,

00:47:41   putting it on a pillow or on my new sofa,

00:47:44   which has been incredible. This is what peak performance looks like. Yes! This is what

00:47:50   peak performance got. You just need one long finger and a pair of long legs. This is the

00:48:05   final form. You thought my final form was, you know, what you knew of me before? No,

00:48:14   the one long finger and the two long legs.

00:48:16   Incredible.

00:48:17   But especially I would say the long thighs, I think, because like the long leg, like the

00:48:22   leg, like what's the, what's it called?

00:48:25   Chin, calf.

00:48:26   No.

00:48:27   Yes.

00:48:28   So the long shins, like the shins, by the way.

00:48:30   Excellent.

00:48:31   Steven, you like the shins, right?

00:48:32   The shins are great.

00:48:33   Yeah.

00:48:34   The shins are great.

00:48:35   But anyway, the shins as the body part, like long shins are useless.

00:48:38   What are you going to do with long shins?

00:48:39   Nothing.

00:48:40   Nothing.

00:48:41   What are you going to do?

00:48:42   long thighs, meaning like an extra surface area for your lap. Well, that's convenient,

00:48:49   right? Because you can put pets on it, kickstands, you know, books. You could be Santa Claus,

00:48:56   you know, kids that can tell you what they want for Christmas. You could be like a really,

00:49:00   like really efficient Santa Claus, multiple children, right? Exactly. Like multitask,

00:49:05   like exactly. See the long thigh, like with possibilities, lots of possibilities there,

00:49:10   including kickstands in this case. Maybe I have the long thigh, I don't know, but I like using

00:49:19   the kickstand of the iPad that way. And, as I showed in the story, I also like holding it

00:49:26   as this sort of elongated pop socket. And it works, because instead of holding the iPad

00:49:32   with your thumbs on the bezels, which gets tiring after a while, you can just hold the kickstand,

00:49:38   and maybe I'm weird but but I like it. Okay let's move on. Yeah. I can't talk about shins anymore.

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00:51:34   and Relay FM.

00:51:35   - iOS 16.2 beta one is out and available.

00:51:40   Obviously there are still bugs in stage manager,

00:51:43   like, you know, obviously it just continues to roll on,

00:51:48   but there are a couple of interesting things

00:51:50   added to this beta.

00:51:52   One of them was Freeform, which you may have forgotten about.

00:51:56   Freeform was announced at WWDC as a kind of a cross-platform

00:52:01   collaboration whiteboard application.

00:52:04   So you can draw, you can add links and images.

00:52:08   It's kind of like a mixed-media kind of whiteboard app,

00:52:12   so you can bring in a lot of stuff.

00:52:15   And it also works natively with the new collaboration features

00:52:18   within iOS.

00:52:20   Have you two played around of it all?

00:52:22   - Yeah, yeah.

00:52:23   I made a board for Tim Cook's European vacation.

00:52:28   - Yeah. - As a demo.

00:52:31   Yeah. - It's very interesting,

00:52:33   this board that you built here.

00:52:36   - Do you like it?

00:52:36   I do my research.

00:52:38   - I do like it.

00:52:39   Where did the pin come from?

00:52:40   Is that an emoji?

00:52:41   - It's an emoji.

00:52:42   It's an emoji.

00:52:43   Yeah, and as you can see,

00:52:46   you may think this is a meme thing,

00:52:48   but this is actually like a serious demo,

00:52:50   of freeform. This is how I like to approach work. Have fun, but actually, if you think

00:52:56   about it, there's a bunch of interesting technical concepts here. So the first one, the rich

00:53:01   links. You will see these thumbnails for 9to5Mac, Relay FM, and YouTube. Those are links that

00:53:08   I dragged in from Safari. In a nice touch, you will see there's a PodTrack link next

00:53:14   to the upgrade one.

00:53:15   And that's because this thing can even fetch

00:53:20   the Rich Link preview for MP3 URLs.

00:53:23   So that's very cool.

00:53:24   The arrows I did with the Apple Pencil,

00:53:28   you can see that I'm an artist, you know,

00:53:29   take a look at those beautiful high quality arrows

00:53:32   that I drew.

00:53:33   - I have an issue with Freeform.

00:53:35   - Yeah?

00:53:36   - It doesn't do the shape recognition that Notes does.

00:53:39   - Yeah, I noticed that. - What?

00:53:41   How? - I noticed it.

00:53:42   - I think that must be a bug.

00:53:44   - It's gotta be. - Yeah, I think it's a bug.

00:53:46   - I think it's a-- - 'Cause that's a very

00:53:47   strange omission.

00:53:49   - There are bugs right now, I will say.

00:53:51   For example, it's not syncing for me between devices.

00:53:55   And when I try to share-- - So one of the bugs

00:53:56   which I believe you can't delete boards.

00:53:58   You can try, but it just doesn't happen.

00:54:00   - Yeah, I've seen that. (laughing)

00:54:01   - That's the ultimate collaboration, really.

00:54:03   (laughing)

00:54:05   - When I try to share a board,

00:54:07   it says that I need to log in with my Apple ID,

00:54:10   but I am logged in with my Apple.

00:54:12   - Interesting.

00:54:14   - I also want to point out how the much,

00:54:18   you know, discussed subject isolation feature of iOS 16

00:54:23   that we poked fun at in September,

00:54:27   like, "Oh, why did they do this?

00:54:30   It doesn't make any sense."

00:54:31   It makes some sense in the context of freeform.

00:54:34   As you can see, I was able to isolate Tim Cook and Adi Q

00:54:37   and the university man with the hat.

00:54:41   I isolated the subjects and I dragged them into free form.

00:54:46   And it kind of makes sense, because now you can crop things from the background

00:54:50   and have a PNG and it works in the context of a mind map.

00:54:54   I love this.

00:54:55   I really like how this is the kind of app that brings together,

00:55:02   especially on the iPad, all the things that drag and drop can do.

00:55:07   And drag and drop has been,

00:55:09   it's a very powerful framework

00:55:11   that has been vastly underutilized

00:55:15   by third-party developers.

00:55:16   Apple is using it, and you can see the result,

00:55:19   like photos, links, MP3s, images, text, documents,

00:55:23   like all kinds of things.

00:55:25   You can drag and drop into free form.

00:55:27   And I would imagine this app would be super nice

00:55:33   on an even bigger iPad Pro.

00:55:35   Yeah, I mean you could really, you know, get in there and do some mind mapping.

00:55:40   I like it. I like to do stuff like this.

00:55:44   I do too. No, I do too.

00:55:45   Can you export that like as an image or something? I haven't tried just... I have tried it out,

00:55:51   but I didn't think to do it until we were just talking about it.

00:55:53   Oh, real-time feedback from one to John. With Freeform, go to your Apple ID. There's a separate

00:55:59   switch for the app that you need to turn on everywhere for sync to work. Oh, thank you, John.

00:56:05   I would expect that maybe they are shipping it with it turned off because

00:56:09   it's maybe unreliable right like I can't imagine it was like that because that

00:56:13   doesn't make any sense right, but I guess you can you can export them so

00:56:18   that you could like draw it and do a bunch of stuff and then.

00:56:21   Export it to somewhere else save it in another app or something yeah, I said

00:56:27   very interesting I was like I was just like tooling around in it today drawing

00:56:30   some stuff out of some stuff like I could definitely because sometimes I

00:56:34   I do this in Notes or I do this, like, to do something like this in Notes and then export

00:56:39   it to Craft or whatever, but I would use this app instead for sure. I think it's a very

00:56:45   cool idea and I'm excited to try it out in a collaborative nature and, like, realistically

00:56:53   try it out too.

00:56:55   Let me get something on the record here so that it serves as a reminder for ideally people

00:57:01   at Apple, but if anything for us, historically speaking, one of my dreams when it comes to drag

00:57:08   and drop on iPad is to be able to drag a reminder out of the Reminders app and drop it into

00:57:20   notes or freeform, and it becomes like a live reminder thing, meaning that if I check it off

00:57:31   in notes or freeform, it also checks it off in reminders. Like, it's a direct link to the task,

00:57:39   right? Like, imagine you drag a reminder and you drop it, and it's like a live reference to the

00:57:45   reminder. Right now, it's kind of sad if you drag a reminder and you drop it into freeform,

00:57:50   You just got a line of text, like a plain text with the name of the reminder.

00:57:56   It's nothing.

00:57:57   But ideally, like, that sort of live thing would be super nice to have.

00:58:02   I think there's a lot of eye work and notes DNA in here,

00:58:08   in terms of, like, all the object recognition and the gestures of eye work apps

00:58:18   for resizing objects, matching the size of another object,

00:58:23   there's a lot of that.

00:58:25   But there's also a lot of the freedom that you have in Notes.

00:58:28   Rich text, drag and drop, links, documents, emoji,

00:58:34   it's a nice mix of both of those category of apps.

00:58:39   - I don't know when they did this, I probably missed it,

00:58:41   but I like that they have updated the way

00:58:43   that the crayon looks in Pencilkit.

00:58:46   So it looks more like a crayon now,

00:58:47   and it doesn't just look like another pencil.

00:58:49   They used to look very similar.

00:58:52   Now those two drawing tools actually look different

00:58:55   in the pencil kit layout too, so I like it.

00:58:58   Yeah, this is really cool.

00:58:59   I'm intrigued the player a bit more

00:59:01   and see how it grows a little bit through the beta period.

00:59:04   It's a very interesting, cool application.

00:59:06   You know, like in the way that Clips was interesting

00:59:09   and like it brought together a bunch of Apple technologies,

00:59:12   right, into one app, I feel like this is doing the same

00:59:16   but in something that I think is a bit more useful for people

00:59:19   than Eclipse was.

00:59:20   But like you said, it's bringing together a bunch of stuff.

00:59:23   Our friend at the show, Steve Trouton Smith, tweeted and said,

00:59:25   Freeform on the Mac is an AppKit app built with Objective-C

00:59:29   and Swift with nibs--

00:59:30   I don't know what nibs are-- and some Swift UI.

00:59:32   That's the nib nib.

00:59:33   Nib nibs.

00:59:34   In the little nib nib, and uses metal rendering.

00:59:36   So there's a lot going on in this application

00:59:39   on all of the platforms.

00:59:40   And I'm intrigued to see what it's like.

00:59:43   One last thing in 16.2 for now.

00:59:45   new architecture for the home app.

00:59:47   So you remember at WWDC,

00:59:48   they said that there were gonna be improvements

00:59:50   to the home app, but they were.

00:59:51   Support for Matter, which they've put in,

00:59:53   and now a new architecture to quote,

00:59:56   "Upgrade your home and take advantage

00:59:59   of improved performance and reliability."

01:00:02   That's what it says.

01:00:03   There's like a, when you open the home app on 16.2,

01:00:05   it pops up to ask you if you wanna do this.

01:00:08   And basically it's going to, I guess,

01:00:10   like recreate the architecture, the database or whatever.

01:00:13   - Should I do it?

01:00:14   reckon it's probably best to wait until all your devices are upgraded to 16.2 before you do this?

01:00:21   No.

01:00:22   Did you say no?

01:00:23   I kind of want to do it now.

01:00:26   You lied to me because I opened the home app and it doesn't say anything.

01:00:30   9to5Mac lied to you. I'm just...

01:00:32   Maybe it's US only, you know?

01:00:33   I don't think so.

01:00:34   You can get real home upgrades in Europe too.

01:00:38   That's true.

01:00:39   Homes are too small in Europe so they can't...

01:00:42   Right, right.

01:00:44   - Well, hmm.

01:00:45   - You can probably go to the settings of home

01:00:48   and do it too, 'cause you can say like upgrade later

01:00:51   and then you can go into the settings to do it.

01:00:53   It is also possible that maybe Apple's doing some stuff

01:00:56   to try and understand if the apps,

01:00:58   like all the devices are on 16.2 before it prompts you.

01:01:03   I hope they would do something like that,

01:01:04   but you can never really know.

01:01:05   But yeah, this is interesting.

01:01:07   It's gonna in theory be more reliable, faster,

01:01:09   all that kind of stuff.

01:01:11   I'm very happy that Apple is putting the work in

01:01:14   for the home effort.

01:01:16   - You know why?

01:01:17   Because my Apple TV is not on 16.2.

01:01:19   - It could be that it's waiting.

01:01:21   - It may be.

01:01:23   I can't believe we just blew by new architecture

01:01:26   for the home app.

01:01:27   Just, I was trying to build us up to it, you know?

01:01:31   I was trying to design something, construct something,

01:01:34   and it just didn't work out.

01:01:35   - So, freeform home app, right?

01:01:39   can imagine that's on the like the good part of the roller coaster. I don't know

01:01:43   if we're going up or down. It kind of depends on... Yeah I think they're both... I

01:01:46   think... I think they're both good. Apple's taking HomeKit really seriously and

01:01:50   with matter and everything else on the horizon it's a very exciting time for

01:01:54   the smart home and Freeform looks awesome. It's like a new iWork app. The

01:02:00   iWork app brand is basically dead but you know it's been a while since we've

01:02:04   had like a really solid good productivity app from Apple so it's

01:02:08   that's cool. Well the reason I mentioned this going up and I will come down I'm

01:02:13   gonna read to you from Macrumus. Starting today developers can now advertise their

01:02:19   apps in the app stores main today tab in in a quote you might also like section

01:02:24   at the bottom of individual app listings in all countries except China ads are

01:02:30   already beginning to appear in these places and as usual the ads have a blue background and an

01:02:36   ad icon so they can be identified. Following up a couple of hours later from MacRumors,

01:02:42   just several hours later several prominent developers have complained about distasteful

01:02:48   ads for gambling apps appearing in their own app store listings outside of their control.

01:02:53   There's a couple of things going on here, one of them we kind of knew a little bit more about

01:02:58   that Apple was going to be putting ad content like people could pay to have content put into the home

01:03:04   section of the app store so it looks like it's content that Apple has surfaced right? The way

01:03:11   that they do like their features. I didn't like that I think that that's disingenuous like it's

01:03:16   for some reason Apple are wanting to sell their recommendation which is a weird like because

01:03:22   that's what it's going to feel like they are selling the space that they usually use to

01:03:27   recommend stuff to you, which is like a trusted area and they're selling it.

01:03:31   I found that to be odd, but the one that seems to be upsetting most people at the

01:03:35   moment, especially developers, understandably, is go to an app page, you

01:03:39   scroll down and there has always been like a "you might also like" it's like a

01:03:43   recommend that if you like this you might like this. They also do this with

01:03:46   content like podcasts and stuff which Mark Gorman has reported that Apple's

01:03:49   probably going to bring this there too, which would make perfect sense when you

01:03:52   see this. Now the very first one of the you might also like is an ad and with these kinds of ads

01:03:59   it's whoever pays most wins and so apps that make a lot of money because they hook people in with

01:04:05   gambling things or they're like in-app purchase games are able to just put the most money in they

01:04:10   can either target to your app type or just be like hey just put me wherever you want to just give me

01:04:15   the impressions and that's what's happening so lots of developers are now seeing unrelated content at

01:04:21   at the bottom of their app page.

01:04:23   And I think the concern a lot of people have,

01:04:25   if I can try and summarize it,

01:04:26   of like somebody has come to my app,

01:04:29   either purposefully or not,

01:04:30   or they're like they're on a page,

01:04:32   which is like my store page to the world,

01:04:35   and you are now selling space on that,

01:04:37   which I have no control over.

01:04:39   - And it's led to some terrible pairings.

01:04:41   I mean, last night on Twitter,

01:04:43   this is the last week Twitter exists, by the way.

01:04:45   So enjoy it while we can.

01:04:47   - Yeah, this is the going home party.

01:04:49   Guys, it was fun until it lasted.

01:04:52   Uh, where are we going to go next?

01:04:54   - You know, Twitter came up with the app store

01:04:57   and now it's going away as the app store descends

01:04:59   into gambling and, you know, free to play game ads.

01:05:04   But yeah, I mean, a lot of Twitter last night

01:05:08   was our kind of indie developer friends,

01:05:11   like being extremely mad that their apps have like gambling

01:05:16   or online dating or, you know, other apps

01:05:18   that not only they don't want,

01:05:20   but aren't related to their applications, right?

01:05:23   And it seems like Marco was doing about this.

01:05:25   There are some settings in App Store Connect

01:05:27   or the ad manager or somewhere where you can,

01:05:29   you can tweak some parameters, but it is-

01:05:32   - No, I don't think that was the case.

01:05:34   That was what people could buy.

01:05:36   - Oh, okay.

01:05:37   Okay, so they could buy, okay.

01:05:38   - Yeah, it's a setting for what you can choose.

01:05:40   You can choose to either show,

01:05:43   probably, you can, I wanna read from,

01:05:46   correction to earlier tweet.

01:05:48   product page ads are not limited to relevant apps,

01:05:50   you can specifically choose to show your ad

01:05:52   against irrelevant apps.

01:05:54   So like it's, the choice is you as the ad buyer,

01:05:57   not you as the developer whose ads are shown.

01:05:59   - Okay, well, it should be an option for developers as well.

01:06:02   - No, they're not gonna do that.

01:06:03   Why would they do that?

01:06:04   - No, I know they're not gonna do it,

01:06:05   but that's the whole problem, right?

01:06:07   That they've opened these floodgates

01:06:10   and with, it's not even in the outline,

01:06:12   but with the cost of Apple services going up a dollar or two,

01:06:16   depending on exactly what you have and where you live,

01:06:19   their service revenue is gonna look better.

01:06:21   And this, the ads in the App Store,

01:06:25   like have never been super useful about, you know,

01:06:29   being tagged to relevant applications.

01:06:31   But apparently if you, when you buy an ad,

01:06:32   if you can ignore that,

01:06:33   you know, maybe that explains some of it,

01:06:34   but it's become grosser and grosser in there.

01:06:38   And having like one of the tweets I saw go by,

01:06:41   someone had found like a addiction recovery application.

01:06:46   and there was like a online casino app ad

01:06:50   right on that page.

01:06:51   Like those two things should not be in the same place.

01:06:55   Like one that I tweeted about

01:06:56   that I didn't get a screenshot, but I saw,

01:06:58   so I just tweeted it anyways,

01:06:59   was I was like, I wonder what's on TikTok.

01:07:01   'Cause I would imagine that that app store page

01:07:05   is highly expensive to land on.

01:07:09   And it was Groupon.

01:07:10   I was like, oh yes, the youth love deals on things.

01:07:14   But it's just, it's in this sort of system they've built,

01:07:19   the apps that can spend the most

01:07:22   will end up in the most popular pages.

01:07:24   A lot of those apps are kind of gross and scammy,

01:07:27   at least that's how a lot of us feel.

01:07:28   And it's not like Apple shouldn't have been surprised

01:07:31   by that, like I'm sure these apps were already

01:07:33   the top spenders in advertising, right?

01:07:36   They didn't just start advertising suddenly yesterday

01:07:38   because this thing launched.

01:07:40   It's just pretty gross and sad, and I don't like it.

01:07:44   - Yeah, this to me feels like one of those things

01:07:48   where you're doing something that may be technically

01:07:52   okay, correct, allowed, use whatever expression you prefer.

01:07:58   Like, you're not doing anything wrong,

01:08:00   technically speaking, and I bet it's also

01:08:03   a pretty good way to make money, because these--

01:08:05   - Oh, yeah.

01:08:06   - These companies, these online gambling companies,

01:08:09   are big spenders and they make big money, and I bet they are ecstatic at the prospect

01:08:16   of being able to advertise in even more places on the App Store. And you're making money

01:08:21   off of it, so great! You found a possibly, I would assume, legal way to make new money.

01:08:28   Fantastic. But at what cost in terms of, well, in multiple terms. Brand recognition,

01:08:37   aesthetic, and also like, I know that it's a business, but...

01:08:43   And maybe this is just me, right? Maybe it's a me thing, but like,

01:08:48   maybe this is an exaggeration for some people, but it's not for me. Like,

01:08:51   what's the moral cost of this? You know? Like, advertising, you know, gambling apps,

01:08:59   and those ads go on the product pages for, you know, apps that help you recover

01:09:06   from addiction. Like, there has to be a morality line somewhere. And I know that if it were

01:09:13   my business, and if companies approached us and be like, "Hey, can we advertise our casino

01:09:18   app on Mac stories?" I would say no. Because, yeah, it would be great money. Yeah, I wouldn't

01:09:26   be breaking any law. And it would be, you know, everybody would be happy. But it comes

01:09:32   down from me to, like, what's right for your brand, for the people who use your products.

01:09:38   And also, it's a matter of taste. And this is just, like, at the end of the day, maybe

01:09:44   you don't have morals, maybe you don't care about the financial aspect of this. And I'm

01:09:49   not saying that Apple doesn't have morals, mind you. I'm just saying this is a bad decision

01:09:53   that reflects on them from that point of view. But at the end of the day, it's just a matter

01:10:00   of taste and this is just ugly and distasteful and like I would like to have a conversation

01:10:08   with someone and open the app store on my phone, give them my phone and be like "hey,

01:10:13   take a look at this, don't you see it? It's ugly, it's distasteful, like it doesn't look

01:10:17   good on you". It's not a good look on Apple. So I have a couple of extra little points

01:10:22   I want to make on this. One, stop making the Steve Jobs comparison, it's pointless. Yeah.

01:10:30   There's no, you don't need to make the Steve Jobs comparison to say that they should or

01:10:34   should not be doing this. And also it is literally impossible for us to know if he would have

01:10:39   wanted to do this. There's no point making that comparison anymore. We can look at this

01:10:44   thing in isolation and say, "Right, you shouldn't do this." For all the what Federico just said

01:10:51   of like, Apple tries to position itself as better. That is their whole thing is like,

01:10:59   are better. But like I have a couple, so one of these ways is in privacy and then the other

01:11:04   is in like taste. So if we do the taste thing, I think it is distasteful to even have a lot

01:11:13   of these in-app purchase games, right? Because that's a lot of what people are talking about

01:11:17   I think with gambling. It isn't just gambling apps, it's like these games that are created

01:11:22   and have gambling hooks in them.

01:11:26   There's also adult live chats being advertised.

01:11:28   Of course there are.

01:11:30   But like these games that are like predatory really, right?

01:11:35   Apple forced these developers to give them a cut of that money, right?

01:11:40   It isn't just a convenience thing where these developers are like,

01:11:44   "Oh, we'll just use Apple's in-app purchase."

01:11:46   No, they say, "One, you must give us this money."

01:11:50   So they take the money happily.

01:11:52   By taking that money, they are allowing these developers to stay on the store

01:11:55   stay on the store, the longer they stay on the store, the more money they make.

01:11:58   So then they can buy ads to bring more people to these games so Apple can take

01:12:04   more money. So they take the money, then they take the money for the ads, then

01:12:09   they take the money that the ads generate and they're happy with all of

01:12:12   that. They want all that money so they don't care. They want all that money,

01:12:15   right? And then you've got this other thing which is frustrating me now where

01:12:21   one of Apple's new App Store review policies is applications like Instagram,

01:12:28   Twitter, Facebook, TikTok. If you buy ads in those apps, so like if you want to

01:12:34   boost a post, right? You guys have probably seen this. I assume other people

01:12:38   have seen it too, right? You see ads and it's just like a regular

01:12:41   person's post or whatever. You can do this. I do this for Cortex brand, like

01:12:46   sometimes if we post a new product, I boost the post on Instagram to get it

01:12:50   out to more people. I pay like £35. It finds like 20,000 more people. I just think it's

01:12:56   a good way of announcing a thing, right? I do that all in the Instagram app and Instagram

01:13:02   charged my card. Apple said now, no, you can't do that. We want the money. So they now won.

01:13:09   If you want to boost a post, they want 30% of that money. Apple gave a statement to Alex

01:13:15   Heath of The Verge, which I find to be hilarious, which they said, "Apple continues to evolve

01:13:21   its policies to grow their own business." Oh, no, that's meta statement. I'm sorry.

01:13:27   Apple's statement was, "Boosting, for many years now, the App Store guidelines have been

01:13:34   clear that the sale of digital goods and services within an app must use in-app purchase. Boosting,

01:13:40   which allows an individual organization to pay to increase the reach of a postal profile

01:13:45   is a digital service. So of course in-app purchase is required. This has always been

01:13:50   the case and there are many examples of apps that do it successfully. I find that hilarious

01:13:54   because they've changed a rule and said it was always the case, which I just find to

01:13:57   be like a weird doublespeak kind of thing. Right? It's like this wasn't a rule before,

01:14:03   but now they've said it applies to an existing rule, like it falls within an existing rule.

01:14:09   But the thing that annoys me about this is a lot of these ads are targeted ads, right?

01:14:15   The exact thing that Apple claims is evil, but now they want 30% of that money too.

01:14:22   And it's like, which side do you actually fall on?

01:14:24   Do you think targeted advertising is bad?

01:14:27   So like, they are trying to double kneecap these companies, right?

01:14:31   They're like, one, we're going to take your targeting away with app tracking transparency.

01:14:36   And then any advertising that's left, we want 30% of it.

01:14:39   Who do they think they are?

01:14:41   It's madness to me.

01:14:43   You made a successful product.

01:14:44   Congratulations.

01:14:45   You don't deserve all the money in the world for doing that.

01:14:48   Have it both ways, the Apple story in 2022.

01:14:51   Like, you can see--

01:14:52   yeah, I mean, honestly, yeah, that's what it is, right?

01:14:55   You want to have it both ways.

01:14:57   You want to offer users the tools to say,

01:14:59   no, those targeted ads are bad.

01:15:01   Here you go.

01:15:02   Enable this setting, and you're not going to get them anymore.

01:15:05   But if somehow they manage to sneak in,

01:15:09   we'll make money off of them.

01:15:10   I mean, you gotta hand it to them.

01:15:13   It's a perfect strategy, right?

01:15:15   In a very sick and twisted way, I kind of love it.

01:15:20   - And this is the,

01:15:22   if this is how you wanna run your business,

01:15:23   I think that's fine,

01:15:25   but don't make these public statements too.

01:15:29   If you wanna do this, do it.

01:15:30   You are welcome to run your business however you want

01:15:33   and people can choose if they wanna opt in

01:15:35   to your business or not, right?

01:15:37   I as a customer can choose, other businesses can choose

01:15:39   if they want to do business with you.

01:15:41   I don't have a problem with that.

01:15:42   The thing that annoys me is when,

01:15:44   like a company tries to paint the picture

01:15:47   that it is better than everyone else, when really it isn't.

01:15:51   And like, I have no doubt that there are so many people

01:15:54   inside of Apple.

01:15:54   I bet there are people inside of Apple's

01:15:56   developer relations team that hate

01:15:58   that this App Store ad thing is happening.

01:16:00   But it's not about the individual people

01:16:02   that I am criticizing here.

01:16:05   It is the overall decision of the company.

01:16:07   And I'm not saying, and it doesn't fall on one person

01:16:09   'cause lots of people have to make these decisions,

01:16:11   implement the stuff, like it has to come down

01:16:13   from the top down. - Yeah, it's a strategy.

01:16:14   Right? - It's a strategy

01:16:15   that multiple people have agreed to and someone pitched it.

01:16:19   - It kind of makes it worse, I feel like.

01:16:21   - Yeah, it's, I just find it frustrating.

01:16:23   I just find it frustrating.

01:16:25   - It is frustrating and like you said,

01:16:27   from a company that says it's above all that,

01:16:29   it's even worse.

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01:18:26   It's a Mac OS week, believe it or not, we talked about the iPad, what they found, let's

01:18:31   talk about the Mac.

01:18:32   So Mac OS Ventura is out.

01:18:37   It is like its iPad sibling.

01:18:41   It is basically what we saw this summer.

01:18:43   A lot of people wanted them to address issues in the Settings app.

01:18:48   It also has Stage Manager, which we can talk about the differences between the Mac and

01:18:51   iPad version in a second.

01:18:53   it's here and I would say all the normal caveats apply make sure your workflows

01:18:58   and apps are ready to go before you update have a backup before you update

01:19:02   but I will say it's maybe been the easiest beta and Mac OS update that I've

01:19:08   had in a long time it's been really pretty smooth for me I upgraded yesterday

01:19:15   okay no Monday I upgraded on Monday night like I haven't tried it out at all

01:19:21   I think it's an interesting update.

01:19:24   I'm using Stage Manager and I'm trying to get used to it so far.

01:19:30   It's very interesting. It is actually mostly what I wanted from the Mac,

01:19:36   but there's some strange decisions, especially because there are features

01:19:41   that I want Stage Manager to have that the iPad version actually has,

01:19:46   which is really weird that they didn't do that.

01:19:50   There is no possible way to click on a dock icon and have it open in your current stage.

01:19:57   It will always open a new stage.

01:19:59   This is particularly annoying for Finder, right?

01:20:03   Every time you want to file from Finder, it's going to open in a new stage where I would

01:20:07   just like to shift click on the app and have it open in the current stage.

01:20:13   If they add that feature, it will resolve about 75% of my problems with Stage Manager

01:20:17   on the Mac because then I feel like I have much more control of what's going on.

01:20:20   But I actually really like it. Like it does what I want. I was a big spaces user. This allows me to

01:20:29   have more spaces with less friction because I tried once to split out the two spaces I have into like

01:20:35   four or five which made more sense to then kind of lay all my apps out the way I wanted to kind

01:20:40   of group them in their natural pairings. But then I was swiping backwards and forwards way too much

01:20:45   where I feel like the strip or whatever is actually quite a nice way for me to jump between

01:20:51   those stages. It makes a lot of sense. I actually kind of like it. I'm hoping that they add some

01:20:57   more stuff to stage manager on the Mac to address some of these concerns. John did a really good job

01:21:03   of going through them in his Mac OS review. Like I had to go and double read over John's thing to

01:21:10   to be like, am I missing something?

01:21:12   Because it is wild that like there are two

01:21:15   settings, like that's it.

01:21:18   Yep.

01:21:19   And I feel like there should be way more

01:21:21   and it should do way more.

01:21:23   I saw that the developer, Better Touch Tool

01:21:26   is going to add some stuff for

01:21:28   first stage manager.

01:21:29   Maybe that will help more.

01:21:31   We'll find out. But like I actually do

01:21:33   like the idea of it way more for me

01:21:36   personally on the Mac, on iOS, iPad

01:21:38   OS, which is what I thought.

01:21:39   I thought I would prefer it that way because I do have a too many windows open problem

01:21:44   and it does solve that for me.

01:21:48   Without my personal frustration of stage manager on iPadOS which is I cannot freely move windows

01:21:53   that that's my biggest frustration obviously on the Mac I can do that so.

01:21:59   Continuity camera I also really love it I have this issue with my studio display still

01:22:03   where sometimes the my overhead lights in my studio make the screen make the camera

01:22:08   flicker still flickers yeah they fixed it for a while and they broke it again

01:22:13   no but it did the iPhone is completely has no problem with this so now I had

01:22:18   like an elgato arm that I bought I bought a few of them for setting up

01:22:23   stuff for a podcast on a couple of years ago and one of them just wasn't being

01:22:26   used anymore because I didn't need to didn't need it what I had it for but so

01:22:30   now I've mounted this behind my studio display with a glyph on the top a studio

01:22:34   in Eglif and I just put my iPhone into that.

01:22:37   So it's like a good angle.

01:22:39   And I did a couple of calls of it yesterday

01:22:41   and it was perfect.

01:22:44   So two thumbs up from me on that one.

01:22:46   It's really good.

01:22:47   Turn on center stage and you get a way better picture quality

01:22:49   and it just looked excellent.

01:22:50   So I'm very happy with continuity camera.

01:22:53   It's a hilarious feature, but I'm happy that they added it.

01:22:56   - Yeah, I think it's, I think the theme this year

01:22:59   is really similar to past years, right?

01:23:01   It's that the Mac is a sibling with equal footing

01:23:04   to the iPhone and the iPad.

01:23:07   Yes, there are some Mac specific things

01:23:08   like continuity camera.

01:23:10   These releases most of the time now are much more

01:23:12   about the features in the individual apps, right?

01:23:15   Like all the cool stuff in messages, right?

01:23:17   Like I've wanted to edit messages from my Mac all summer

01:23:22   because I had the beta on my phone and on my laptop.

01:23:25   But if I was at work at my desk where I am most days,

01:23:29   I couldn't edit, right?

01:23:30   those those sorts of features the mail features all the all the stuff coming in the apps themselves

01:23:35   that's much more what these things are about now and

01:23:38   It is less frequent that we get something really Mac specific and you know, it's fine. It's a mature platform that has been around

01:23:47   21 years, you know since the beginning of the OS 10 era so I get it

01:23:52   I did want to backtrack to Sage Manager just for a second because you mentioned that it has the same

01:23:56   the same issue of

01:23:59   It basically wants to create a new stage for everything on the Mac in particular

01:24:05   that feels really

01:24:07   Backwards to how the Mac works like I could see the argument or the other way around on the iPad

01:24:12   but the Mac has always had a UI at least for

01:24:16   Most of its life where you can have these multiple windows and they overlap and I feel like Mac users

01:24:22   Would be fine

01:24:24   at least with an option to like, okay, just leave me on one stage and I'll create them. I'll set them up and

01:24:30   There's all sorts of features that they could add, right?

01:24:33   They could add like, you know, like this tab groups, like could I have stage groups? We're like, okay

01:24:38   Every Monday I want these four stages with these apps all ready to go

01:24:42   But there's no way to do it on either platform

01:24:43   like there's there's so much stuff they could do there and I feel like stage managers simplicity is

01:24:49   feels worse on the Mac because the Mac already has

01:24:53   a

01:24:55   Richer better ecosystem for this like it

01:24:57   Stage major attempts to bring the iPad up and then bring the Mac down in terms of complexity and that's very weird for one

01:25:04   Feature be able to do both. I think that's why it feels janky at times

01:25:08   Like there's one great example of this for me, right?

01:25:11   You've got you're in a stage and you want to bring in bring in an app that's already in another stage, right?

01:25:18   So you can go over to the stage thing and it is possible to do this.

01:25:22   You shift click on the stage and it will bring an app in,

01:25:27   but it will only bring in the app that is on the right most of the icons that are shown,

01:25:35   which I think was the previously foreground app.

01:25:38   So if you want the one that is second, you have to do it twice and then you have two apps.

01:25:42   Like it's just like why you built like half of the feature.

01:25:47   Like, I have a huge screen, why can't I like, like hover over it and just shift click the

01:25:53   actual icon, which I can do. I have enough space to do it, but it doesn't do anything. It'll just

01:25:58   bring in the one that's in the top of that kind of, I hate the word pile by the way, not good.

01:26:03   Are you familiar? Like, oh this might be, yep, no. Okay, I wonder if it's uniquely British. No,

01:26:10   it is, but I know it as the British term. I don't, I don't. Yeah, not good, not good word,

01:26:15   but I don't think they... Do they officially call it that? Like in anything?

01:26:19   I think they're called piles, yeah.

01:26:22   Oh god, Federico, do you know what piles?

01:26:26   What that means in like English?

01:26:29   No.

01:26:31   Hemorrhoids.

01:26:33   Ah!

01:26:34   Yeah.

01:26:35   Okay.

01:26:36   Yeah.

01:26:37   Well... Oh, really?

01:26:39   Yeah.

01:26:39   Well.

01:26:41   Yeah.

01:26:41   Well.

01:26:42   I mean, sometimes it feels like that was stage manager.

01:26:45   (imitates drum roll)

01:26:47   - That was a poopy joke.

01:26:48   - He said it, okay.

01:26:50   - Release the mic cut.

01:26:54   So yeah, but I think stage manager has promise,

01:26:59   but I feel like I shouldn't be saying that, right?

01:27:02   Like you said this Federico, like in different words,

01:27:04   but like it's like, it has promise,

01:27:06   but we should have said it had promise in July, not October.

01:27:09   Because promise in October means we have a long time

01:27:14   it's just like this and that is not the right way for it to be and I will echo I

01:27:19   have not seen system settings I will echo JSON that is an horrific

01:27:24   application that I've never found an app on the Mac with worse information

01:27:28   density than system preferences or system settings or whatever it is so bad

01:27:34   it's so hard to find anything so hard I don't know why they did this and you can

01:27:39   only make it taller. Yeah, which is especially hilarious in Stage Manager,

01:27:45   right? That like you open this application and I have like a 28 inch

01:27:49   display or whatever it is, my studio display, and I just get this skinny app

01:27:53   in the middle of the display. Well they can't make it wider because they

01:27:57   did the very bad thing of all of the text on one side and all of the controls

01:28:03   way over on the other side of the UI. And if you made it wider you wouldn't be

01:28:09   able to follow it. My favorite part of it is the desktop and doc settings page

01:28:15   which is I mean you look at it it basically looks like a like like a

01:28:19   document out of an outliner application. It's terrible. Like I don't know at this

01:28:24   point put in a little indentation maybe you keyboard shortcuts and you end up

01:28:29   with the text editor in this settings page. I mean it's all text and headings

01:28:34   it's not too dissimilar from my notes for an iOS review it kind of looks like

01:28:39   this it's a page with text only this is settings. Mm-hmm. Nice job. So yeah if

01:28:47   you're a Mac user I would say it's it's pretty solid. Settings aside you don't

01:28:51   have to use stage manager. One other thing just to fully close that is stage

01:28:56   manager does interact with spaces so you can have different stages and piles

01:29:03   - No. - Per space.

01:29:05   - Can we come up different term?

01:29:07   - Which is weird.

01:29:09   - That doesn't sound like a nightmare at all.

01:29:11   - No, it's super strange. - Spatially speaking.

01:29:13   - And it's like, so it doesn't know anything

01:29:16   about mission control, right?

01:29:17   Like I'd never heard of it.

01:29:18   Exposé, never knew 'em.

01:29:20   - That's so funny. - Spaces?

01:29:22   - Don't worry. - 'Cause you go

01:29:22   into mission control and you just see all of the apps, right?

01:29:25   And it's like, what am I supposed to do now?

01:29:27   (laughs)

01:29:28   - So even the way that it's integrated

01:29:30   into the rest of macOS is kind of weird.

01:29:33   But you don't ever have to use it, right?

01:29:34   Just in Control Center and like, I will touch it next June

01:29:39   and see what it's like in macOS 14 beta beta one.

01:29:41   But other than that, I feel like Ventura's, it's a pretty great release.

01:29:46   Myke, I will get to the bottom of these piles

01:29:51   terminology for you. Please do.

01:29:54   You don't want to go down that rabbit hole.

01:29:56   You want to make sure you've got some preparation.

01:29:59   Mmm, it's true.

01:30:01   For that one.

01:30:02   Oh, no, see, no, I don't want to make these kinds of jokes.

01:30:05   We're better than this.

01:30:06   You know what I mean?

01:30:07   Are we though?

01:30:08   I don't want to get into bathroom humor.

01:30:11   This is not our road.

01:30:12   Let's go back to long fingers and big thighs.

01:30:15   That was better.

01:30:16   This is what stage manager has driven us to.

01:30:18   All right, well, let's flush all those jokes away and end the show.

01:30:22   If you want to find links to stuff we spoke about,

01:30:24   they're in your podcast app,

01:30:26   But they're also on the web at relay.fm/connected/421.

01:30:31   While you're there, you can send us feedback or follow up.

01:30:33   There's an email link there.

01:30:35   There's also some buttons at the top of the page

01:30:37   to join and get connected pro,

01:30:39   which is a longer ad-free version of the show each week.

01:30:44   During the pro show this week, I wrote down some keywords.

01:30:48   So I'm just gonna give you these

01:30:50   and you can just imagine what you may be missing

01:30:53   if you're not a member.

01:30:54   But calendars, Mercedes Benz, cow JavaScript, whatever that means, go check it out in the

01:31:02   pro show.

01:31:03   If you want to find us online.

01:31:05   We're all hanging out on the internet.

01:31:07   Federico is the editor in chief of Mac stories.net.

01:31:10   Y'all if you haven't read their coverage of the new iPads and stage manager and the Mac

01:31:15   like spend some time this weekend reading them.

01:31:19   Three really great articles.

01:31:20   You guys have just killed it this week.

01:31:21   I know y'all are both really tired.

01:31:23   Yes, thank you. As a reader, I've really enjoyed what y'all are doing this week. So good job. You can find Michael Mein,

01:31:30   he's the editor of some shows, but he's also the host of a bunch of shows here on Relay FM.

01:31:35   I'm the editor-in-chief. He's the editor-in-chief of The Pen Addict, and what else do you edit? Is that it now?

01:31:43   Cortex. Cortex. He's the editor-in-chief.

01:31:48   So edit it if there's one show that I'm not the chief of it's the pan addict

01:31:53   I tell you that Brad is definitely the chief of the pan addict

01:31:56   Well, you're you edit some shows and you host some shows they're all at relay.fm

01:31:59   You can find me on relay as well

01:32:02   I host Mac power users and ingenious and I write over at 512 pixels dotnet. No, you're the editor-in-chief

01:32:08   Five to a pixels done that. Yes you are. Yes. I don't have a staff though. I mean Federica is like people

01:32:14   Yeah, well sometimes you use your kids for things related to the website, so you kind of have a staff.

01:32:20   Do I?

01:32:21   Well, it's it's legal child labor, essentially.

01:32:25   Yeah, we don't forget into that.

01:32:27   It's help.

01:32:28   You can teach a markdown to a lot younger of a kid than you would think. That's that's all I'll say.

01:32:32   I don't know what's happened to this episode, but I'd like to thank our sponsors for it. Without them,

01:32:39   we would not be able to do this. And they are Trade Coffee, Indeed, and Clean My Mac X.

01:32:44   Until next week's episode guys, say goodbye.

01:32:48   - I'll do that to you.

01:32:49   - Cheerio.